mrgt.alttttut (!fouurtl. - parliament of new south wales

Transcription

Adjournment
[5 MAR., 1969]
by my department, working drawings wm
be prepared. The planning of a school of
this size takes a considerable time, so at
this stage I cannot hold out much hope
for an earlier start on the building than calling tenders for it either late this year or
early next year. However, I can give the
gentleman an assurance, following the
numerous representations that he has made
to me on the subject, that I shall keep in
touch with the Department of Public Works
and do everything I possibly can to speed
up the preparation of the plans and the
calling of tenders so that the young people
who are either in the area now or will come
there as a result of the setting up of this
new industry shall be catered for adequately.
Motion agreed to.
Printing Committee
4181
TRUSTEE COMPANIES (AMENDMENT)
BILL
THIRD READING
Bill read a third time, and returned to
the Legislative Assembly without amendment, on motions by the Hon. J. B. M.
Fuller.
SUPREME COURT AND CIRCUIT
COURTS (AMENDMENT) BILL
THIRD READING
Fuller.
JUDGES' PENSIONS AND EQUITY
(AMENDMENT) BILL
THIRD READING
House adjourned at 10.35 p.m.
Fuller.
mrgt.alttttut (!fouurtl.
CORONERS (AMENDMENT) BILL
Wednesday, 5 March, 1969
Aborigines Bill (third reading)-Trustee Companies
(Amendment) Bill (third reading)-Supreme Court
and Circuit Courts (Amendment) Bill (third
reading)-Judges' Pensions and Equity (Amendment) Bill (third reading)-Coroners (Amendment)
Bill (third reading)-Interpretation (Amendment)
Bill (first reading)-Printing Committee (Sixth
Report)-Questions without Notice-Business of
the House: Notice of Motion-Credit Union Bill
(second
reading)-Evidence
(Reproductions)
Amendment Bill (second reading)-Horticultural
Stock and Nurseries Bill (second reading)Library of New South Wales Bill (second reading).
The PRESIDENT took the chair at 4.28 p.m.
THIRD READING
the Legislative Assembly without amendment, on motions by the Hon. F. M. Hewitt.
INTERPRETATION (AMENDMENT) BILL
FIRST READING
Bill received from the Legislative
Assembly and, on motions by the Hon.
J. B. M. Fuller, read a first time and
ordered to be printed.
The Prayer was read.
PRINTING COMMITTEE
ABORIGINES BILL
THIRD READING
the Legislative Assembly with amendments,
on motions by the Hon. F. M. Hewitt.
SIXTH REPORT
The Hon. J. A. WEIR, as chairman,
brought up the Sixth Report from the
Printing Committee.
Ordered to be printed.
4182
Questions without Notice
[COUNCIL]
QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
MARGARINE INDUSTRY
The Hon. J. C. McINTOSH: I direct a
question without notice to the Leader of
the Government.
Is it a fact that the
margarine industry is employing a man at
$25,000 a year, plus generous fringe benefits, to work in the political sphere in order
to gain benefits for such industry? Is it a
fact also that in the United States of
America lobbyists are required to register
so that their identification is known? Will
the Minister take up with the Premier the
question of the introduction of similar legislation . in this State and of providing not
only that the names of lobbyists are published but also that they shall be required
to wear some identifying badge while they
are lobbying in the precincts of Parliament
House?
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: The honourable member advised me yesterday of
his intention to ask this question. I have
made inquiries and have found that towards the end of October, 1968, an advertisement appeared in the Sydney press. The
advertisement was inserted by P. A. Management Consultants of North Sydney,
seeking applications for a director for "An
organization combining some of Australia's
largest and best-known companies and representing an industry of national significance . . . who will be responsible
for
political liaison, public relations and industry promotion".
The advertisement indicates also that:
"This man will require considerable ability
and stature. He will become a public figure
and may already be well known. He will
certainly be highly placed in the public
service, in industry, in public relations or an
a<rndemic sphere. He will have good contacts in political circles or be well capable
of developing them." Further, "He must
be a good public speaker" and able to
"handle successfully an on-camera television
debate." The advertisement indicated that
inquiries may be made in confidence. Perusal of additional information suggested
that the salary would be from $15,000 to
perhaps $25,000 a year. I am surprised
that some honourable members have not
already seized this opportunity.
With regard to the second part of the
question, I have been advised by the United
States Consulate that according to United
States law, a lobbyist representing a foreign
interest must register, though a lobbyist
representing a domestic interest in the
United States of America need not. It is
believed that in practice the majority of
people acting as professional lobbyists in
the United States of America are not registered. Many of the leading law firms in
Washington that represent a number of
foreign interests, and probably local interests as well, would be registered, but only
if they set themselves up in the course of
their work as lobbyists representing foreign
interests. In view of this, I cannot see the
advantage of adopting in this State the
United States system of registration of
lobbyists, but I shall certainly discuss the
honourable member's question with my
colleague the Premier.
SCHOOL BUSES
The Hon. JAMES CAHILL: I ask the
Minister for Child Welfare and Minister
for Social Welfare whether, following the
closure of many country schools, a large
number of school buses now operate on our
roads and highways. If this is a fact, will
the Minister confer with the appropriate
authorities with a view to having some distinguishing sign, namely "School Bus", displayed on the rear of these vehicles so that
other road traffic will be alerted to watch for
children embarking and disembarking at
many points on the roads? Further, will the
Minister seek the co-operation of shire councils and motor traffic control authorities to
have, where practicable, signs bearing the
words "School Ohildren" erected on the
roadside as another warning to other road
users?
The Hon. F. M. HEWITT: It is true
that a number of school buses operate in
country areas. I might mention that one of
the services provided by this Government
for country school children is free bus travel
for students living more than 2 miles from
the school. The honourable member's suggestion that school buses be labelled "School
Bus'', particularly at the rear, is a good
idea, which I shall convey to my colleague
[5 MAR., 1969]
the Minister for Transport. As to road
worthiness, school buses, like any other
vehicles on the road, must conform to the
normal requirements.
RESTRICTED DRIVER'S LICENCE
The Hon. J. L. KENNY: I ask the VicePresident of the Executive Council a question without notice. First, is it a fact that
a young Port Macquarie man named Hunt,
aged 16 years and 5 months, has been drivi~g his father's trench digger for the past
eighteen months and has applied to the
Department of Motor Transport for a restricted driver's licence? Also, has this
y~ung n;ian purchased a trench digger and
1omed his father in contracting for sewerage
works? Did he recently work for the Department of Main Roads on private property, and has his skill in operating these
machines attracted a great deal of interest
by visitors and local residents? Has this
young man been refused a licence on the
ground that no hardship would result? If
so, does this not seem to be an obvious
discrimination between applicants that is
pathetic and in violation of all aspects of
common sense?
·
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: I do not
know whether the honourable member has
stated the facts, but I shall certainly take
up the matter with my colleague the Minister for Transport. Having ascertained
what can be done for this young man named
Hunt from Port Macquarie, I shall advise
the honourable member in due course.
RYDGE REPORT
The Hon. R. C. PACKER: I ask the
Leader of the Government whether he is
aware that copies of the Rydge report, as
it has been called, are still not available
to members of this House. In view of the
widespread interest in this report, will the
Minister make inquires to see what can
be done to expedite the printing of this
report, as I am sure that all honourable
members would like to see it?
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: I shall
certainly do all I can to see that all honourable members are provided with a copy of
the Rydge report as soon as possible.
Notice of Motion
4183
PROVISIONAL LICENCE SCHEME
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: On 5th
December last the Hon Anne Press asked
a question with regard to the operation of
the provisional licence scheme in New
South Wales. I now have before me some
details from the Commissioner for Motor
Transport, who informs me that at that time
there were 106,047 provisional drivers in
New South Wales. This is a considerable
number. It will be seen that this class
of driver is still prominent on our roads
and far from redundant, as the Hon. Anne
Press suggested at that time. One of the
important effects of the provisional licence
scheme is that since its inception in January,
1966, there has been a decrease in the
accident rate among first-year drivers of
approximately 10 per cent. This surely
reflects the worth of the provisional licence
scheme. The specific figures relating to
provisional licences on issue since the
scheme was introduced are: for the year
ended December, 1966, 84,651 ; for the
year ended December, 1967, 104,494; and
for the year ended December, 1968,
106,047
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE: NOTICE OF
MOTION
The Hon. R. R. DOWNING (Leader of
the Opposition) [4.48]: I notice that the
notice
of
motion
in
my
name
concerning the Chairman of Committees
has been listed under business of the House.
Apparently that has been done on an interpretation of Standing Order 55. With respect, Mr President, I do not hold that
view. Yesterday, when I gave notice of
the motion, I felt that it would come within
the order of private business and would
naturally be discussed on Thursday. Therefore I move:
That notice of motion No. 1 on the notice
paper of business of the House for to-day
be postponed until next sitting day.
Motion agreed to.
4184
Credit Union Bill
[COUNCIL]
CREDIT UNION BILL
SECOND READING
Debate resumed (from 4th March, vide
page 4113) on motion by the Hon. F. M.
Hewitt:
That this bill be now read a second time.
The Hon. J. J. MALONEY (Deputy
Leader of the Opposition) '[4.49]: This bm,
which gives a charter to the credit-union
movement of New South Wales in its own
right, meets the approval of members on
this side of the House. As the Minister said
in his second-reading speech, the growth
of credit unions in a short period has been
phenomenal. These organizations were first
recognized by statute in New South Wales
in 1962, when a Labor government was in
office.
Recognition was then granted to credit
unions by amendments to the Co-operation
Act. The growth of credit unions in .New
South Wales since those days has been
phenomenal. At that time they had funds
of about $5,500,000, and today they have
grown to more than $50,000,000. No less
than 322 credit unions are operating in this
State, and most of them belong to one of
the credit union associations. The bill fairly
represents what could be called a provisional charter for the credit unions in this
State. I use the word provisional advisedly.
While the credit unions have been operating
they have been developing their techniques.
They have registered their rules and they
have established sound methods of conducting their business. I understand that the
Minister responsible for this legislation in
another place has closely conferred with the
credit unions, and suggestions emanating
from those discussions resulted in the bill.
As far as I can see, the bill provides a very
good charter for the credit unions.
My colleagues and I were concerned
about some features of the measure, but
our concern has been more or less dispelled by the proposed amendment which
the Minister has mentioned and by undertakings that were given in another place.
We were concerned that clause 6 should
provide that credit unions could not advance more than $1,000 as an unsecured
loan, though this was a considerable in-
Credit Union Bill
crease on the limit of $400 that was allowed
under the Co-operation Act. After discussion with some credit union officials we
considered that the proposed limit was too
low. However, the Minister intimated in his
second-reading speech that, since the bill
was dealt with in another place, this sum
has been further considered, and it will be
increased to $2,000. Is that .correct?
The Hon. F. M. HEWITT: That is so.
The Hon. J. J. MALONEY: The Opposition had contemplated moving amendments
to provide that the limit on unsecured loans
be increased from $1,000 to $2,000, and
that the limit on secured loans be increased
from $2,000 to $3,000. Everyone appeared
to be quite satisfied with the limit of $4,000
in specia,l circumstances.
Now that the
Minister has said that he will move an
amendment to increase the limit of $1,000
to $2,000, my colleagues and I are satisfied,
particularly as I understand that the proposed amendment has the approval of the
Credit Union League of New South Wales
and of credit unions generally.
The Opposition was also somewhat concerned about the membership of the advisory committee that is to be established
under the bill. As the Credit Union League
of New South Wales represents 68 per cent
of the 322 credit unions in this State, we
considered that the league should be assured of adequate representation on the
council. I appreciate that under the bill
adequate representation of the league could
be effected, but it is equally true that it
could have no representation. However,
my colleagues and I have taken into account that if one association of credit
unions were singled out for representation
on the council, similar recognition would
have to be given to a multiplicity of associations. Also, in view of the undertaking
given by the Minister in another place that
the Credit Union League of New South
Wales will receive adequate representation,
we do not intend to press that any further.
Generally speaking, all members will approve of the bill as it stands though they
might have misgivings about some parts of
it. For example, each credit union is to
be required to have not less than 7 per cent
of its funds in liquid form. Whether that
Credit Union Bill
[5 MAR., 1969]
percentage is too high is debatable, but my
colleagues and I have had regard to the
fact that while credit unions are in their
infancy all precautions must be taken to
ensure that the liquidity of their funds is
retained. The advisory committee may recommend to the Minister that this percentage be changed, and it will be competent
for the Minister to change it. Though the
provision might be argued against, it is
not worth holding up the legislation indefinitely to ascertain the correct percentage.
I understand that a number of other societies already registered under other Acts are
covered by this 7 per cent provision. With
the undertaking given by the Minister that
he will move an amendment, and accepting
the undertaking given in another place, the
Opposition supports the bill.
The Minister has said that the limitation on interest that was to be imposed by
the bill will also be removed. Some credit
unions are in a most satisfactory financial
position, and as credit unions charge various rates of interest it is wise to leave them
to their own devices to decide the interest
that they shall charge their members. If
it is found that an interest charge is exorbitant the registrar, through the Minister,
has power to rectify it. The part of the
bill that intrigues me is that which stipulates the retiring age of directors.
In most branches of the public s.ervice
and in public utilities the retiring age is 65 or
60, and in other instrumentalities 65 or 70.
However, the 150,000 citizens of New
South Wales who have formed themselves
into credit unions and have elected their
own officers and boards of directors are
now being told that, no matter how good
the chairman of the board might be, no
matter how much experience he might have,
and no matter how valuable he is, he cannot be retained after he reaches 72 years
of age.
Colonel the Hon. Sir HECTOR CLAYTON:
I would be in a bad way.
The Hon. J. J. MALONEY: You would
be. Colonel the Hon. Sir Hector Clavton
is a glaring example of my point. He· has
more knowledge than has any other member of this House of legal proceedings and
Credit Union Bill
4185
of matters of public life. I am wondering
how the Government arrived at an age
limit of 72.
The Hon. R. W. MANYWEATHERS: Is it
not the retiring age provided under the
Companies Act?
The Hon. J. J. MALONEY: It is the
first time that I have seen a like provision.
Colonel the Hon. Sir HECTOR CLAYTON:
Under the Companies Act, a person over
70 must be elected by a three-fourths
majority.
The Hon. J. J. MALONEY: But in credit unions he could not come in at all.
The Hon. F. M. HEWITT: The provision
is in the Co-operation Act.
The Hon. J. J. MALONEY: I should like
to know how the Government determined
on age 72. I disagree with it. These are
not government instrumentalities. They are
not like organizations in which people wait
for years for promotion and then go out
on a good retiring allowance. Credit unions,
conducted by private persons, should have
the right to elect their officers for life. I
am not quibbling about this, but am just
querying where the Government got 72
years of age from. Under this measure, a
person under 21 years cannot hold office in
a credit union. This may be a sensible
thing, but if the proposal that the electoral
voting age be reduced to 18 is adopted it
might then be necessary to bring back this
bill for an amendment. If a person is
qualified to vote in an election for a member of Parliament, surely he is qualified to
hold office in a credit union. These are
things that I noted when going through the
bill, but all in all I commend the measure,
which I think is good.
The credit unions appreciate that they
are getting a complete charter in their own
right. I hope that in the future, in the administration and operation of the credit
unions, this bill not only will prove of great
benefit to members of the credit unions but
also will serve as an example to other sections of the community. I support the bill.
4186
Credit Union Bill
[COUNCIL]
The Hon. T. P. GLEESON [5.4]: I support the bill which, it is pleasing to see, has
widespread support from
honourable
members. As the Hon. J. J. Maloney has
said, this splendid bill helps the most deserving people in our community, the citizens who are doing something for themselves and are willing to accept responsibility. A great deal of voluntary work is
put into the credit unions, and many of the
officers and members of the executive, who
guide the destiny of the credit unions, regard it as almost a vocation. The credit
union movement is to be highly commended, for not only does it provide economic help to those who have not much
property to offer as security, but also it
inculcates thrift. Recently on television I
was pleased to hear an officer of a credit
union say that the great majority of members of credit unions display remarkable
integrity and honesty. They have a responsible outlook and meet their obligations.
Credit unions set an example, showing
members what they can do to help each
other and to help themselves. It is altogether a splendid idea. I have always been
most appreciative of the co-operatives in
our society. I go further and say that I
think the majority of the people do not
understand the great power that rests with
them if they care to use their strength in a
co-operative way for the betterment of
society.
Uigressing for a moment, may I say
that the Commonwealth Bank of Australia
should have a section to assist people of
limited means. This should be run not on
a profit basis but on a cost basis. If this
were done it would protect people and
prevent their falling into the clutches of
unscrupulous moneylenders.
The Commonwealth Bank could do a good job in
this regard. The bill before us provides
machinery for the further advancement of
credit unions. As the Minister and the
Hon. J. J. Maloney have said, the measure
has met with widespread approval from
those engaged in the credit-union movement. I am happy indeed to support a bill
like this, and I commend the Government
for it. The credit-union movement is engaged in very worthwhile work in promoting the interests of people who help themselves, the only people one can really help.
Credit Union Bill
The Hon. F. M. HEWITT (Minister
for Child Welfare and Minister for Social
Welfare) [5.7], in reply: What the Hon.
J. J. Maloney said is correct; this is, to
some extent, a provisional charter. The
Government has provided virtually what
the credit unions themselves asked for, with
perhaps a few limitations, such as the
liquidity clause. We believe that this bi!J
is in the interests of credit unions and thei1
members. Priority must rest with the return of funds to the persons who have lent
them, in case of need. If credit unions
had not a reasonable degree of liquidity,
they would not be able to do this. At one
stage the Credit Union 'League asked that
it should have three members, instead of
two, on the advisory committee. The
president and one of the directors are
on the present advisory committee.
When all is said and done, these people,
who know all about the operations of credit
unions, and have proved themselves to be
entirely successful in this field, are the
persons we want on the advisory committee.
The whole principle of the credit-union
movement is wonderful and should be encouraged by the Government. We believe
that this bill will encourage credit unions.
The Hon. J. J. Maloney mentioned the
retiring age of 72. This is the age prescribed in the Co-operation Act, and it was
considered to be a suitable provision to
insert in this bill. The Hon. T. P. Gleeson
approves the bill and I was pleased to hear
what he had to say. He said that the Commonwealth Bank should make personal
loans. That bank does make personal and
unsecured loans in certain cases, as does the
Rural Bank of New South Wales. Some
of the trading banks also are doing this in
a limited way. This was something started
by the financial organizations, but not in
any desire to compete in any way with
credit unions. I personally believe that the
bill is a good one, and I commend it to the
House.
Motion agreed to.
Bill read a second time.
Credit Union Bill
IN COMMITTEE
Clause 4
Page 5
(2) The Minister may, by order published in tho
Gazette upon the recommendation of the Advisory Committee
and with the concurrence of the Treasurer, fix a rate of interest
for the purposes of this subsection and a credit union shall not,
in respect of any loans made by it after the making of the
10 order and while the order is in force, charge a rate of interest
in excess of the rate so fixed by the Minister under an order
for the time being in force.
5
The Hon. F. M. HEWITT (Minister for
Child Welfare and Minister for Social
Welfare [5.10]: I move:
That at page 5, all words on lines 5 to 12
be omitted.
This will remove the power of the Minister,
on the recommendation of the advisory
committee, to fix a maximum rate of interest which may be .charged on loans to
members. As I mentioned in my secondreading speech, this was included in the
bill to permit prompt remedial action to
be taken if usurious rates were charged.
The responsible Minister has received and
agreed to representations that this power
be removed from the bill. That is the
purpose of this amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
The Hon. F. M. HEWITT (Minister
for Child Welfare and Minister for Social
Welfare) [5.12]: I move:
That at page 7, after line 12 there be inserted the words:
"(b) may, where the rules applicable in
respect thereof do not require repayment of
the indebtedness of a member to be secured
by prescribed security but the terms and conditions applicable in respect thereof are specified in special rules, be an amount not exceeding two thousand dollars or, where the
regulations prescribe some other amount for
the purposes of this paragraph, the amount so
prescribed."
This
amendment will make more
flexible the unsecured maximum indebtedness of a member. This is shown in
the bill as printed as $1,000. As mentioned,
the New South Wa·les Credit Union League
has requested that this limit be varied. It
is agreed that in most cases $1,000 is the
maximum amount which should be owed
by a member without security. There are,
however, credit unions which can permit a
higher unsecured limit without endangering
the member's savings. The amendment
permits the registrar by special approval to
permit an unsecured limit of $2,000.
Clause as amended agreed to.
Clause 32
Page 29
Clause 6
Page 7
5
Subject to subsection eight of this section, the specified
amount( a) shall not, unle5s the . rules applicable in respect
thereof require repayIIJent 9f the indebtedness of a
member to be secured by prescribed security, exceed
10
one thousand dollars or, where the regulations
P.~escribe some oth~r amount for. the purposes of
this paragraph, the 'amount so prescribed; ·
Welfare [5.11]: I move:
That at page 7, line 7, after "(a)" there be
inserted the words "except as provided by
paragraph (b) of this subsection."
The amendment I have just moved is a
machinery one that is necessary because
of a further proposed amendment that I
now foreshadow and that I referred to in
my second-reading speech.
4187
Credit Union Bill
[5 MAR., 1969]
(3) The judge may direct any question of fact to be
20 determined in such manner as he may deem fit, and. subject
to subsection four of this section, may make such order,
including an order as to costs, as may be proper in the
circumstances.
·
( 4) Where the registrar has refused to register a
25 proposed rule, or alteration of a rule, that relates to(a) the class of person who may borrow from· a credit
union;
(b) the maximum amount that may be owed by a
member to a credit union; or
30
(c) a charge that may be levied on a member by a
credit union or by an association.
·
the judge shall not make an order under subsection three of
this section (other than such order as to costs as he thinks
fit) relating to that refusal unless he is satisfied that the refusal
35 was the result of a failure by the registrar to exercise,
according to Jaw, a discretion vested in him by this Act.
That page 29, lines 20 iand 21, the words
", subject to subsection four of this section,"
be omitted.
4188
Credit Union Bill
[COUNCIL]
The advisory committee has recommended
that in relation to the bond of association,
charges which may be imposed upon members and maximum indebtedness of members, appeals should be limited to matters
of law. The bill as printed includes the
recommendation. Further representations
have been made to the Government and the
amendment is the result of those representations. This amendment was, like the
earlier amendments, referred to in my
second-reading speech. It will mean that
the appeals provisions will revert to those
existing under the Co-operation Act. This
amendment is a consequential one.
That a page 29 all the words on lines 24
to 36 be omitted.
This is the final amendment I propose to
move. When moving the previous amendment I set out the reasons for this amendment and accordingly I now move the
omission of these words. I foreshadowed
this amendment at the second-reading stage.
ADOPTION OF REPORT
Bill reported with amendments, and
report adopted, on motions by the Hon.
F. M. Hewitt.
EVIDENCE (REPRODUCTIONS) AMENDMENT BILL
SECOND
READING
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER (Minister
for Decentralisation and Development and
Vice-President of the Executive Council)
[5.20]: I move:
It is now some eighteen months since the
provisions of the Evidence (Reproductions)
Act were debated in this Chamber. Honourable members may recall it was legislation of a somewhat technical nature, aimed
at reducing the period for which documents
are required by law to be preserved and
Evidence Bili
facilitating the production in court and use
in evidence of reproductions of documents.
Special provision was made for the microfilming of business and government records.
This bill is a small amending measure, and
its few provisions are designed to eliminate
possible difficulties which may arise in the
future administration of the Act.
Section 3 of part II of the Act, in regard to the reproduction of public documents, that is, the documents of government departments, makes provision for the
appointment of "approved persons", who
are authorized to certify reproductions of
documents in their custody and control.
Section 3 provides also for such reproductions to be admissible as evidence in any
legal proceedings, as' if they were the original documents. The aim of the section,
therefore, is to provide a simplified method
of certifying reproductions of government
records, which are microfilmed in the
course of a department's business, and also
to facilitate the destruction of old records
that are no longer required. This and other
provisions of the Act relating to private
business mean that records, which are quite
bulky at times, may be disposed of after
microfilming. Much valuable and expensive
storage space will then become available for
other purposes. The legislation is of benefit, therefore, to both government and business organizations.
Following a recent review of the Act, it
has been thought desirable to amend part
JI to ensure, first of all, that "approved
persons" are given perpetual succession.
This will remove any doubt as to the certification of reproductions in later years by
successors to persons who at present hold
such positions. Second, the bill ensures
that records microfilmed in the RegistrarGeneral's Department prior to the commencement of the Act will be covered by
its provisions. The bill provides also that
certificates by approved persons on reproductions do not fail by reason of a mere
technical error or by misdescription in the
official designation of the approved person.
The remaining matter dealt with b·1 the
bill clarifies the provisions of the Act relating to affidavits.
Evidence (Reproductions)
[5 MAR., 1969]
Part III concerns the reproduction of business documents and provision has been
made for certain proof to be by way of
affidavit. The word "affidavit" as defined in
the Act includes statutory declaration. Notwithstanding this, it has been suggested that
the 1967 Act, in effect, amends the Oaths
Act in relation to extra-judicial oaths. This
was never the intention and the definition
of "affidavit" is amended in the bill to correct this and to remove all doubt. These
amendments are purely machinery matters.
They are designed to meet any possible
future technical objections that may arise
later on in the administration of the Act
unless these additional safeguards are inserted. As mentioned, the principal Act has
been in force for only eighteen months,
and has not been tested by the courts. Because of the large microfilming programmes
already being undertaken throughout the
State, both by the business community and
by government departments, it has been
thought necessary to legislate now, thereby
avoiding any difficulties which may arise
in the future. The legislation is complex,
but the objects of this bill are quite simple,
and I commend it to the House.
Amendment Bill
4189
Though all those matters seem to be unobjectionable, I sound a note of warning.
The law of evidence has been evolved over
a long period and its framers have been
careful to ensure that only relevant matter
that is capable of proper proof is presented
to the court. As these amendments are
technical, will the Minister tell the House
whether the Law Reform Commission has
given its approval to them? I have before
me a government publication dated March,
19'68, bearing the authorization of Mr Justice Manning as chairman and setting out
the terms of reference of the Law Reform
Commission. One of them was to review
the law of evidence in both civil and criminal cases. I should have thought that all
these technical matters would, as a matter
of more abundant caution, have been referred to the Law Reform Commission. The
provisions of the measure would then have
been scrutinized by a highly competept
legal body which would no doubt have
adopted the practice of circulating copies
of its proposals to interested professional
bodies. If the Minister can say that this
has been done, any doubts that I may have
about the measure would be removed. I
shall be much happier about the bill if
the Minister assures the House that the Law
Reform Commission has examined it and
concluded that it contains no hidden traps.
the Opposition) [5.24]: I cannot see any
objection to this measure, which seeks to do
four things. One of them is to correct the
definition of "affidavit". Apparently it is
considered that the definition of affidavit in
the Evidence (Reproductions) Act of 1967 Vice-President of the Executive Council)
[5.28], in reply: In answer to the last quesmight have the effect of amending the Oath&
Act in relation to extra-judicial oaths. If tion raised by the Hon. R. R. Downing, I
there is any doubt about it, it is better to must say that this measure has not beeh
amend the definition. Under the new defi- referred to the Law Reform Commission.
nition, an affidavit will include a statutory As the commission has not yet begun a redeclaration where the making of an affi- view of the law of evidence, the bill was
davit is not authorized by law. The Min- not referred to it. These amendments arose
ister said that approved persons would be from suggestions by the Crown Solicitor,
given perpetual succession. This will re- who feared that difficulties might arise in
move any doubt as to the certification of the administration of the Act. Let me first
reproductions in later years by their succes- refer to the queries that have arisen about
sors. The bill will ensure that documents the designation of :the officers concerned.
microfilmed before the 1967 Act came into For instance, there is some doubt about the
operation are covered by its provisions. The correct designation of the under secretary
bill will ensure that certificates by approved for Lands. Is he the under secretary of
persons on reproductions do not fail Lands, the under secretary for Lands, or
through a technical error or misdescription the under secretary, Department of Lands?
.of the approved person's official designa- This applies to a number of responsible
officers whose office changes in course of
tion.
4190
Evidence Bill
[COUNCIL]
time.
The Director-General of Agriculture was Director of Agriculture a few
years ago, and a few years before that I
think he was under secretary for Agriculture. The Crown Solicitor is of opinion that
these inconsistencies should be ironed out
before they are challenged in court.
As to the effect of the definition of affidavit on the Oaths Act, if there is any
possibility of misunderstanding and conflict, let us correct the anomaly before it
is challenged in court. The principal Act,
which became law eighteen months ago, has
not yet been challenged, but it is feH that
some difficulties with regard to the perpetual succession of officers and their designations should be ironed out before the
courts are asked to adjudicate on them.
They are really machinery matters.
Motion agreed to.
Horticultural Stock Bill
and true to type. Disease transmitted by
material used for propagating horticultural
stock is a major cause of poor quality trees
and plants. The Department of Agriculture has spent many years developing propagating material which will produce
horticultural stock free of disease and true
to type. The bill is designed to encourage
the sale of horticultural stock produced
from such propagating material and to prohibit the use of propagating material which
is likely to transmit disease.
The provisions of the proposed legislation will apply to such classes of horticultural stock as may be proclaimed. Clause
5 provides that the Governor may make
such proclamations. Part II of the bill deals
with registration. Clause 7 requires all
persons propagating, selling or carrying on
the business of selling proclaimed horticultural stock to be registered. Two classes of
persons will be registered. The first will be
nurserymen
who will .register in respect of
COMMITTEE AND ADOPTION OF REPORT
any nursery-that is, a place at which horBill reported from Committee without ticultural stock is propagated for sale. The
amendment, and report adopted, on motions second will be resellers who will register in
by the Hon. J. B. M. Fuller.
respect of any place where horticultural
stock is sold, except if the place be a
nursery. Registration will be required in
HORTICULTURAL STOCK AND
respect of each place where stock is proNURSERIES BILL
pagated or sold and will be effected as
SECOND READING
provided in clause 8. Each registration
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER (Minister shall, unless suspended or cancelled, remain
for Decentralisation and Development and in force for twelve months and may be
Vice-President of the Executive Council, renewed. Applications for registration or
renewal thereof are to be made to the
[5.32]: I move:
Director-General of Agriculture and must
be accompanied by a prescribed fee, which
This bill was prepared to give effect to will not exceed $20.
representations made by the New South
Provision is made for an application for
Wales Association of Nurserymen and the
Irrigation Research Extension Committee, registration to be refused or granted suba co-ordiBating and advisory body on agri- ject to conditions. A registration when
cultural matters in the Murrumbidgee irriga- granted may be suspended or cancelled.
tion areas. The purpose of the bill is to The grounds for refusal, sus·pension or canassure orchardists and others that horti- cellation are specified in subclause (8) of
cultural stock that they purchase will grow clause 8. Clause 10 gives a right of appeal
to healthy plants, true to type. Fruit trees
require from three to ten years to come to a district court judge against refusal,
into commercial production and live from suspension or cancellation or the imposition
twenty to fifty years or more. It is of the of any conditions to the grant of registrautmost importance to growers that, after tion. Clause 9 requires a certificate of
several years of time and effort, they find registration to be issued and provides safeplants grown by them are free of disease guards against the certificate being used by
Horticultural Stock
[5 MAR., 1969]
a person not entitled to use it. The certificate must be affixed in some conspicuous
place in or upon the place to which it
relates.
Part III of the bill deals with propagating
material. I referred earlier to the work
carried out by the Department of Agriculture to develop propagating material which
will produce sound stock. Clause 11 makes
provision for the a·pproval of sources of
supply of propagating material to be used
in the propagation of proclaimed horticultural stock. It is expected that the approved
sources of supply will include institutions
under the control of the Department of
Agriculture but will not necessarily be confined to such institutions. It has been found
that some kinds of propagating material can
transmit a disease which will not become
apparent in plants until they are five or six
years old. Until the disease does become
apparent, the presence of the disease in the
plant can only be ascertained by long and
difficult laboratory testing. The probability
of such a disease occurring in growing
horticultural stock is a serious economic
hazard. For this reason clause 12 authorizes
the Minister to prohibit the propagation of
proclaimed horticultural stock from material
which is likely to transmit a disease or to
prohibit the sale of any proclaimed horticultural stock which has been propagated
from that material.
The use of propagating material likely
to transmit a disease is regarded as being
serious enough to warrant the destruction
of proclaimed horticultural stock propagated from such material. Clause 13
authorizes the Minister to order stock so
propagated to be destroyed. A person aggrieved by an order may appeal to a stipendiary magistrate. If no appeal is lodged
within a prescribed time or an order has
been confirmed on appeal, the directorgeneral may cause the stock to be destroyed.
Part IV deals with labelling. Clause 14
provides that no person shall sell any proclaimed horticultural stock unless a label
setting out prescribed particulars is attached
to the stock. Specific provision is made
for the prescribed particulars to include a
declaration as to whether or not the stock
was propagated from a source of supply
approved under clause 11. Except as pro-
and Nurseries Bill
4191
vided in clause 12 in respect of propagating
material likely to transmit a disease, the
bill does not place any restriction on the
kind of propagating material to be used
by nurserymen. Stock produced from propagating material, not obtained from an
approved source, can often be of reasonable
quality and it would be unfair to prohibit
the sale of stock so produced. Furthermore, horticultural stock produced in other
States would have constitutional protection
if sold in this State, although not propagated from material approved by this State.
It would be most unfair if a distinction were
made between stock produce@ in other
States and similar stock produced in this .
State by prohibiting the sale of the latter.
Because it would be neither fair nor
reasonable to prohibit the sale of horticultural stock not produced from approved
propagating material, except to the extent
provided for in clause 12, the emphasis
of the bill is on the encouragement of the
use of propagating material obtained from
an approved source. It is considered that
intending purchasers of horticultural stock
will be prompted to buy stock which has a
label attached to it declaring it to be propagated from material obtained from a
source approved by the Department of Agriculture. On the other hand intending purchasers are likely to be deterred from buying horticultural stock which has a label
declaring it was not propagated from an
approved source. In the circumstances the
labelling provision is the most effective
practical method of encouraging the use of
approved propagating material.
Part V deals with inspection and records.
By clause 16, an inspector appointed under
the Plant Diseases Act, 1924, shall be an
inspector for the purposes of this legislation. Clauses 17 and 18 confer powers
upon the inspectors which, subject to necessary changes, are similar to the powers conferred by the Plant Diseases Act. Every
registered nurseryman and every registered
reseller will be required by clause 19 to
keep such records as may be required. It
is expected that the prescribed records will
relate to the source of propagating materials
used to produce proclaimed horticultural
stock, the production of such stock, and the
disposal of the stock. The system of records
4192
Horticultural Stock
[COUNCIL]
and Nurseries Bil.
should, without being burdensome or difficult, enable horticultural stock to be traced
and ensure that the provisions of the proposed legislation are complied with.
prosecution under this legislation, protection is conferred by clause 21, which requires the Minister's consent to a prosecution.
Part VI deals with the horticultural stock
and nurseries account. Clause 20 provides
that the fees payable and penalties recovered shall be paid to the credit of a
special deposits account in the Treasury
which will be called the Horticultural Stock
and Nurseries Account. Moneys at the
credit of the account shall be paid as grants
which will assist the development or protection of the horticultural stock industry
or as compensation in such circumstances as
may be prescribed. It is expected that the
circumstances in which compensation will
be paid will probably be confined to horticultural stock destroyed because of some
exotic disease which a nurseryman or reseller is not likely to encounter in the
ordinary course of his business. A prescribed proportion of the moneys paid into
the special account shall be paid each year
to consolidated revenue to meet the cost
of administration. This provision is consistent with similar provisions in Acts such
as the Cattle Compensation Act, the Swine
Compensation Act and the Potato Growers
Licensing Act.
The final clause, clause 24, by removing
any obligation to register under the Plant
Diseases Act where registration is granted
under this bill, ensures that nurserymen and
orchardists will not be liable to a double
obligation to register. Honourable members
will have noted that the provisions of this
bill will apply to such classes of horticultural stock as may be proclaimed. It is
expected that all of the usual kinds of horticultural stock will be proclaimed and consequently all nurserymen and resellers
dealing in these stocks will be required to
register. The proposed action has been requested by representatives of the nursery
industry. Production and sale of better
quality horticultural stock should flow from
the implementation of this bill. Growers
will be in a better position to ascertain
whether the stock purchased by them is
likely to be true to type and free from
disease. The bill is a reasonable measure.
It permits a flexible approach to its implementation but at the same time provides
adequate safeguards against arbitrary or
capricious administration. I commend the
bill for the support of honourable members.
Part VII contains machinery provisions
necessary for the effective working of the
bill. Clause 21 deals with offences and
provides that no prosecution for an offence
shall be commenced without the written consent of the Minister. Clause 6 gives power
to the Minister to exempt any persons, matters or things from any or all of the provisions of the Act and the regulations.
Clause 23 provides that the regulations
may exempt any persons, matters or things
from any or all of the provisions of the
Act and the regulations. The two clauses,
although permitting similar exemptions, can
be exercised in different circumstances.
Some of the possible circumstances which
could attract exemptions are, for example,
the sale of stock at church fetes and similar
occasional or isolated dealings in horticultural stock. If, after the granting of exemptions, a case still arises where otherwise
reasonable behaviour could be subject to a
The Hon. J.B. M. Fuller]
The Hon. H. J. McPHERSON [5.45]:
The bill is welcomed by honourable members on this side of the Chamber. As the
Minister said, it is completely necessary for
the protection of those engaged in commercial horticulture but applies very much also
to horticulturists concerned solely with
ornamental products. From time to time
the grower of commercial crops, including
fruit, has been saddled with material that
has not been what was ordered or what was
required or what was represented to him
when it was purchased. This bill, which
is completely necessary for the protection
of the industry, has been in the wind for
a number of years. The discussion that
led up to the request for the preparation of
this bill originated thirteen or fourteen years
ago in Griffith in the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area at meetings of the Irrigation
Horticultural Stock
[5 MAR., 1969]
Research Extension Committee. It is regretable that such an essential requirement as
this measure should have taken so long to
be presented to Parliament.
I realize that endeavours have been made
0 ver the years to have the other States
agree to introduce similar legislation.
Nurserymen's associations in the other
States were asked to agree to the policy and
principles embodied in this bill. As the
Minister points out, once it becomes a fact
that the nurserymen in New South Wales
can buy horticultural stock propagated
under certificate and correctly labelled,
nurserymen in other States, particularly
those in border areas, will realize that, if
they are effectively to compete with nurserymen in New South Wales, they themselves
must also put on the market a product that
is properly labelled and of a set standard.
The livelihood of the commercial nurseryman depends upon the production of
disease-free material.
The provision for
the destruction of any stock or material that
may be diseased, or carry or transmit
disease, is a wise precaution. Naturally,
it is necessary that some form of appeal be
provided, and this is incorporated in the
measure. The power of the Minister to
proclaim and to prohibit the propagation
from any material likely to transmit disease,
again strikes at the basic cause of diseases
in plants and trees. I am quite certain that
nurserymen in other States will soon realize
the advantage that nurserymen of New
South Wales have in their properly branded
material. I submit that the real effectiveness
of this measure relies entirely on the correctness and truthfulness of the labelling.
The bill provides penalties for incorrect
labelling, but the real protection to the
nurseryman relies entirely on the correctness of the labelling. This is probably the
most important part of the bill. Correctness
and truthfulness of labelling are absolutely
paramount.
I come from a border region myself,
close to Victoria, and I agree with the
principle of no prohibition of stock propagated from material of a non-approved
source. However, that is a weakness in
this legislation. In my opinion any bill or
any law which has exceptions has a weakness. Bearing in mind that complementary
263
and Nurseries Bill
4193
legislation does not exist in the adjoining
States, I agree with the views of the Minister who said it would be unfair discrimination to impose a restriction upon New South
Wales growers who did not register and who
produced from non-approved sources when
growers over the border could produce
without a certificate and-under the federal
constitution-sell their product here.
I
hope the time will come when our adjoining States enact legislation of a nature
similar to the bill we are now considering.
I must agree with the honourable member for Tamworth who, in another place,
suggested another weakness in this bill. Ten
or perhaps fifteen minutes ago the Leader
of the Government in this Chamber
brought forward a bill to amend legislation
which was passed by the New South Wales
Parliament about eighteen months ago. The
Minister referred specifically to heads of
departments and the nomenclature of
people. Clause 5 of this bill provides that
the Governor may proclaim. Clause 6 provides that the Minister may exempt any
person who is subject to a proclamation by
the Governor. I agree with the views expressed in another place in relation to the
powers delegated or allotted to the Governor, the director-general and the chief of
the division of horticulture. I think thls
bill should be specific in its provisions :as
was the case with the legislation passed by
this House fifteen minutes ago. In my
opinion the Minister should have direct
responsibility.
This bill should have been introduced
to the Parliament some years ago. The
need for this type of legislation has been
recognized for thirteen or .fourteen years,
and in that time we have had three Ministers for Agriculture. The weakness in this
legislation is that there is no complementary
legislation in the adjoining States. I agree
that a special fund should be set up to he
used for compensation where stock is required to be destroyed under conditions
explained by the Minister. I trust that the
moneys which will go into this fund will
stay there and will be used for the specific
purpose envisaged in the bill. I trust also
that the money will not go from this fund
to consolidated revenue, as we have seen
4194
Horticultural Stock
[COUNCIL]
happen with moneys from other funds in
the past few years. The Opposition supports the bill.
the Opposition) [5.54]: I wish to add some
brief remarks to what the Hon. H. J.
McPherson has said. I appreciate the difficulties involved in the absence of similar
legislation in adjoining States. If it were
not for the difficulty of detecting diseases
in plants at an early stage I do not see any
constitutional problem in the enforcement
of a New South Wales law in respect of
plants that might be diseased, which came
from Victoria.
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: In spite of
section 92 of the Australian Constitution.
The Hon. R.R. DOWNING: Yes. The
States are able without difficulty to administer quarantine laws under State Acts as a
protection against disease and without those
Jaws being regarded as laws restricting trade
or commerce. For example, cattle cannot
be brought from Queensland into New
South Wales if they are infested with ticks
or infected with disease.
The principal
reason that would prevent a quarantine on
Victorian horticultural stock coming to New
South Wales, I should think, is that it would
be difficult to detect disease in that stock.
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: We wish to
control trueness to type, also.
The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: Yes, and
tha-t is another difficulty. It has been held
by the High Court of Australia that a St~te
law with an incidental effe.ct of interfenng
with free trade or commerce between the
States is not invalid. As a further example
I mention health laws, which are enforceable.
If an outbreak of disease occurs in one
State people may be stopped from crossi~g
the border into another State. The mam
difficulty with this legislation is that the
other States do not have similar statutes.
I wish also to mention the compensation
which may be prescribed in certain cases
and I was wondering whether the Minister
might indicate what circumstances he has
in mind for the payment of this compensation. They are no·t set out in the bill.
and Nurseries Bill
Clause 10 allows an appeal to a district
court judge when registration is refused by
the director-general. Clause 13 allows an
appeal to a magistrate when stock is required to be destroyed. I envisage some
circumstances where the value of the stock
to be destroyed is considerable, and possibly the financial consequences would be
of a more serious nature than would be the
consequences to a person who was refused
registration, yet in the former case there is
an appeal to a magistrate and in the latter
to a district comt judge. The Minister may
be able in reply to give satisfactory explanations on the points I have raised. I join
with the Hon. H. J. McPherson in supporting this bill.
[5.57], in reply: I appreciwte the support
received from both sides of the House. I
should like to reiterate that recognition of
the need for this legislation goes back to
the late 1940's and early 1950's when the
district council of the extension groups in
the Murrumbidgee Irriga:tion Area began
working on it. The Hon. H. J. McPherson
said that it is a pity that legislation of this
nature should take so long to be brought
before the House. The basic reason for the
long delay is that initially the groups which
were working towards this end approached
the New South Wales Association of Nurserymen and other fruit-growing organizations and collectively they decided to endeavour to have this matter dealt with at
a federal level.
These people worked hard towards
a satisfactory result on a federal basis
but eventually found that although the
need for this legislation was accepted in
principle throughout the Commonwealth,
one State disagreed with the proposal. They
then had to start again in New South Wales,
and the legislation now introduced is the
result of their efforts. I am definite in the
statement that this legislation has come
basically from the New South Wales association in conjunction with the irrigation
research and extension committee and fruitgrower organizations.
The legislation
brought forward tonight is very much along
the Jines suggested by those organizations,
Horticultural Stock Bill
[5 MAR., 1969]
which have stated that there is need for
this type of control in their industry. The
Leader of the Opposition mentioned the
right of appeal to a magistrate regarding
the destruction of diseased plants. The
position under this measure will be exactly
the same as it is under the Plant Diseases
Act.
The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: Is there any
registration under the Plant Diseases Act?
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: Yes, in
some circumstances. As I said earlier, where
there is duplication, two fees will not be
collected. A nursery registered under this
legislation will not have to be registered
under the Plant Diseases Act. Inspectors
working under the Plant Diseases Act will
work also under the provisions of this
legislation. It is natural that the right of
appeal to a magistrate against an order for
destruction of diseased plants should apply
also under this measure, which provides
for inspection by the same inspectors. The
Leader of the Opposition referred to compensation for the destruction of diseased
plants and wanted to know how it would
operate. Entitlement to compensation could
arise principally from the fact that a new
disease has become evident in stock that
has been propagated under the right set
of conditions. Though the nursery sold
the stock in good faith, believing it to be
first-dass stock, disease may have unexpectedly appeared. Diseased plants must
be destroyed. Untold harm would be done
if disease spread to orchards. That is one
example of compensation to an owner for
In another example,
stock destroyed.
through an accident in propagation, the
buyer may not get true-to-type stock
although it had been labelled to this effect.
This may happen to an orchardist five or
six years after purchasing some stock. Instead of getting Granny Smith apples, he
gets some other variety.
The Hon. J. A. WEIR: What would happen then?
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: It would
have to be traced back through the label.
This could be another instance of entitlement to compensation, depending on the
reasons for the mistake.
Library of N.S.W. Bill
4195
The Hon. J. A. WEIR: If there was a
mix-up in the species, the same principle
would apply?
The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: Again, it
would have to be traced back to the person
responsible. It is hard to determine the circumstances until these problems arise, and
for this reason the biU has been framed
as presented. Some of these matters have
not been laid down definitely in the measure: it is best to leave these provisions
wide. I thank the Hon. H. J. McPherson
and the Leader of the Opposition for their
support. I hope this legislation will assist
in the distribution of much better stock
and induce a feeling of confidence in buyers.
People who want to buy good quality stock
from nurseries may be reasonably sure of
being able to do so in the future.
Motion agreed to.
COMMITTEE AND ADOPTION OF REPORT
Bill reported from Committee without
amendment, and report adopted, on
motions by the Hon. J. B. M. Fuller.
LIBRARY OF NEW SOUTH WALES
BILL
SECOND READING
[6.9]: I move:
Just to the north of this historic building
and facing Shakespeare Place is the impressive building which houses one of the
great institutions of this State-the Public
Library of New South Wales. On the
eastern wall of the entrance vestibule of that
great library is an inscription which has
always appealed to me as being a most
appropriate one. It is a quotation from
Thomas Carlyle and reads, "In books lies
the soul of the whole past time, the articulate audible voice of the past when the body
and material substance of it has altogether
vanished like a dream." Below it on the
floor of the vestibule is that magnificent
reproduction in marble of the Tasman map
4196
Library of New
{COUNCIL]
of 1644. This is the first extant map which
shows the general outline of part of this
continent of ours. The original of the map
hangs in the Mitchell Gallery of the library
and is probably the earliest document of
this great land of ours.
The Mitchell Library is truly the "articulate audible voice" of this country. It is by
far the largest and most comprehensive
collection of books, manuscripts, maps and
pictures relating to Australia. It owes its
origin to one of this State's greatest benefactors, David Scott Mitchell, who in 1898
bequeathed his unrivalled connection of
books, manuscripts and pictures to this State
on condition that the trustees of the Public
Library of New South Wales be legally
incorporated to receive the gift and that
the Government erect a suitable building
to house it. Accordingly, the Library and
Art Gallery Act was passed in 1899 to
incorporate the boards of trustees of the
library and of the National Art Gallery
of New South Wales. The provisions for
the Art Gallery were removed from this Act
in 1958 when the Art Gallery of New
South Wales Act was passed and the name
of the Library and Art Gallery Act was
changed to the Public Library Act.
David Scott Mitchell's benefaction was
the beginning of the Mitchell Library which
is a department of the Public Library of
New South Wales, and his splendid example was followed by the late Sir William
Dixson who gave to the trustees his very
fine collection of historical pictures of this
country and, in 1952, bequeathed his collection of Australian books and similar
material which is second only to that of
Mitchell. The Mitchell Library includes
such unique and significant documents of
Australian history as the journal of Sir
Joseph Banks, a great wealth of material
relating to Cook, the journal of Captain
William Bradley, Bligh's log of the Bounty,
the journals of Matthew Flinders and many
others too numerous to mention here.
Among the capital endowments which the
trustees have received is the William Dixson
Foundation for
the copying and printing of historical documents of Australia and the Pacific and the
publication by the Trustees under this endowment of some of these original documents such
The Hon. I. B. M. Fuller]
South Wales Bill
as the Sydney Gazette, our first newspaper,
and such things as the Journal of Lieutenant
William Bradley soon to be published.
These are of incalculable value to students
of our history. Important as they are,
the Mitchell and Dixson libraries are but
departments of a great institution which
itself has had a continuous history as a
library since 1826 when it was founded as
the Australian Subscription Library. In
1869 it was bought by the Government of
the State to serve partly as the National
Library of what was then the Colony of
New South Wales and partly as a free
public library for the citizens of Sydney.
It was then known as the Free Public
Library, Sydney.
The first trustees were appointed in 1870
and the early trustees of the library formed
a lending branch which was 1:ransferred to
the City of Sydney in 1909 to become the
Sydney Municipal Library. It is now the
City of Sydney Public Library. In 1883 a
country lending service was established and
it still continues. It provides supplementary
reference service to municipal and shire
public libraries throughout the State as well
as a reference service 1:0 those country residents who are not fortunate enough to
have local public library services.
In 1895 the library took its present title,
The Public Library of New South Wales.
The library has sever.al departments and
collections. The largest and most important
of these is 1he general reference department which descends directly from the
Australian Subscription Library of 1826.
This is a great reference library. It is a
reminder to us that, though it may be truly
said that in books lies the "articulate audible
voice" of the pas·t, it is also true that in
books lies the "articulate audible voice" of
the present. Despite the many other media
we now have for the communication of
knowledge, information and ideas, the book
is still the one that has the greatest permanency and is ithe most ready and useful
for reference.
In the years since World War II we
have seen an enormous increase in the
amount of information that has become
available. Probably never before in history
has man been so dependent on ready access
Library of New
[5 MAR., 1969]
to information of all kinds. This great increase in recorded knowledge and the great
need for ready and speedy access to information have brought about great changes
in the character of all libraries-particularly of libraries of a national reference
type. Libraries are no longer places of
rather leisurely and almost exclusively
literary kinds of study. They are now busy,
dynamic institutions providing daily the
essential up-to-date information without
which a society such as ours could not
continue to function.
I have mentioned the great endowments
which the library has received in the past.
I am happy to say that such endowments
are not entirely a thing of the past-I have
in mind the bequest of the Misses Elizabeth
and Margarnt MacPherson to establish the
Donald MacPherson Collection of Art and
Literature which is now about to take
effect. But by far the greater part of the
cost of the library is and must continue to
be borne by public funds. The present Government has suppoDted the library to the
fullest extent that it can. Since World War
II the general reference department of the
library has more than doubled its size. In
1899 the library contained 118,000 volumes.
It now contains about 950,000 volumes in
addition to a very large collection of manuscripts, maps, pictures of historical interest
and microfilms.
The library is within easy reach of more
than half the total population of this State.
As I have mentioned it extends its service
to country residents through local public
libraries and by individual loans. The services of the library to the general public,
research workers, students, and to industry,
technology and commerce through its technological research service are very well
known and are heavily used. I am pleased
to be able to say that the use of the library
is increasing year by year.
For many years one of the main functions of the Genernl Reference Department
has been the carrying out of detailed
literary searches on a great variety of
specific subjects. Xerographic and photographic copying are used ~xtensively in this
work particularly in providing information
from the library's very large range of
periodicals which is one of the essential
South Wales Bill
4197
sources of up-to-date information.
The
library is also in regular daily contact by
Telex with the other large general reference
Jibraries in Australia, the university libraries, the specialized libraries in various
fields-libraries such as those at the
C.S.I.R.0.-and not infrequently with
libraries overseas.
The library has become a public utility
of the greatest importance. It is a great
reference and research library serving as
the main source of recorded information
for the people of the State. For this reason
the Government considers that the governing authority of the library, while still retaining its proper autonomy, should be a
council of the library rather than a board
of trustees. There are at present fifteen
trustees ; it is proposed that there be eleven
members of the .council. Under the Act
of 1899 four of the fifteen trustees are the
Chancellor of the University of Sydney,
ex officio, and three professors of that university, appointed upon a recommendation
of the senate. The other eleven trustees are
appointed by the Governor.
Jt is proposed that four members of the
council be members of the academic staff
of the universities of this State. The object
here is not so much to provide for university representation as such as simply to
provide a convenient method of selecting
members with a diversity of recognized expert knowledge. There is no fixed term of
office and no retiring age, so that the trustees
have been appointed virtually for life, except that the three professors have retired
when they ceased to be professors. Life
appointments are not normal modern practice. It is, therefore, proposed that the
members of the .council be appointed for a
term of four years but .be eligible for reappointment and that there should be a retiring age of 70.
The term "public library" throughout
most of the world and particularly in Engli~h-speaking countries means a library provided by a .focal authority and designed to
provide books for information, education
and recreation largely through a ihomelending service. Since World War JI there
has been a great growth in municipal and
shire public libraries throughout the State.
4198
Library of New
[COUNCIL]
This has come about under the separate
Library Act of 1939 which constituted the
Library Board of New South Wales and
provided for State subsidy for these libraries.
This Act was passed during the term of
the Mair-Bruxner Government and became
fully elfoctive in 1944 under the McKell
Government.
There are now about 180 municipal and
shire councils which operate public libraries.
These serve about three and three-quarter
million people. These libraries are similar
to public libraries in other countries-the
United Kingdom, the United States, Canada
and Scandinavian countries and most of the
The Public
other European countries.
Library of New South Wales on the other
hand is a large reference and research library
maintained by the Government of this State.
It is comparable to the British Museum
Library and libraries such as the National
Library of Scotland, although it provides
research servi.ces and extension services to
people living in the country in a way that
those libraries do not. Except for these
extension services it does not lend for home
reading, but is a library for research and
study and for the provision of information
from its very considerable resources.
The special research collections of the
Public Library of New South Wales, including the Mitchell and Dixson libraries, are
of great national significance-quite unlike
those of a local public library. The term
"public library" therefore is misleading and
confusing in the title of a large reference
library even though it is a library which
serves the public as a whole. The confusion that arises from the term "public
library" has had a bad effect in the acquisition of material for the library in countries
overseas where, because of the term "public
library", its nature and character are misunderstood.
This confusion occurs, for
example, in the international exchange of
books and other publications between major
libraries and research institutions ·and even
regarding government publications of
countries overseas. This sort of exchange,
of course, is a well recognized and increasing source of research material at the lowest
possible cost.
The Hon. I. B. M. Fuller]
South Wales Bill
There is also confusion within Australia
and within the State. For example, many
municipal and shire public libraries use
the term "public library" as part of their
title and this is, quite properly, becoming
increasingly the practice. By far the most
significant case is that of the City of Sydney
Public Library which has headquarters in
the Queen Victoria builtjing within half a
mile of the Public Library of New South
Wales. Confusion in the addressing and
delivery of mail is common. It is therefore clearly in the interest of the State's
reference library and the community it
serves that its name should distinguish it
from the public libraries which serve a
different, though equally important, purpose
in a different way. The possible alternative
title of "State Library of New South Wales"
has comparable objections. State libraries
are for the most part smaller and less
comprehensive than the Public Library of
New South Wales and serve a different
purpose. They are usually not large general
reference libraries.
Most State libraries in the United States,
for example, perform functions that are
similar to those of the Library Board of
New South Wales in that they provide consultant and inspection services and in some
cases, central purchasing and processing
services for local public libraries of the
State. Many of them provide library service to the legislature and many have
local history collections relating to their
own State. The Mitchell Library in the
Public Library of New South Wales is much
more than just a local historical collection ;
it is a great research collection relating to
the whole of Australia, the South Pacific
and Antarctica. In this way it differs from
the local collections in other Australian
States, each of which is concerned mainly
with material relating to its own State. The
word "State", like the word "Public" would
be misleading in dealings with overseas
libraries and research institutions. For this
reason it has been considered most suitable
that the name of the library should be
simply "The Library of New South Wales".
There is ample precedent for this in the
names of such institutions as the University
of New South Wales and the Art Gallery
of New South Wales. The bill now before
Library of New
[5 MAR., 1969]
the House ·provides for the Act to be known
as the Library of New South Wales Act,
1969, and for it to commence on a day to
be appointed by the Governor.
Clause 2 gives definitions of the terms
used in the bill. The third clause provides
for the name of the institution to be
changed to the Library of New South
Wales. It provides also for any references
to the former name and to the former
trustees to be deemed to refer to the library
and to the council respectively, as defined
in clause 2. Clause 3 provides also for
the termination of the offices of The
Trustees of the Public Library of New
Souuh Wales. Jn clause 4 there is no provision for repeal of the Acts listed in the
schedule to the bill to the extent indicated
therein and for exising by-laws to continue
in force until they are amended or repealed.
This is the normal provision to cover such
a transition as this.
1Clause 5 provides for a council to be the
governing authority of the library. It also
provides for the constitution and powers
of the council as a body corporate, for the
number and term of office of the councillors, for the filling of casual vacancies on
the council, for the exclusion of members
of the council from the provisions of the
Public Service Act, and for the usual conditions under which a member of council
shall be deemed to have vacated his office.
There are to be eleven members of the
council appointed. Seven are to be nominated by the Minister after consultation with
appropriate persons and organizations. Four
are to be members of the academic staff
of the universities within New South Wales,
nominated after consultation with the universities. An age limit of 70 years is imposed on membership of the council.
Clause 6 provides for the election of a
president and deputy president of the council, and for the chairmanship of council
meetings. Clause 7 contains normal provisions for the procedure for meetings of the
council, for a quorum at such meetings,
and for the reaching of decisions at them.
It provides also for the validation of proceedings of the council. In addition the
clause contains provision for the custody
and use of the common seal.
South Wales Bill
4199
In clause 8 there is provision for the
appointment by the Governor of officers and
employees who, like the staff of the library,
shall be subject to the Public Service Act.
This clause provides also that the repeal
of Acts proposed in this bill will not affect
the rights and privileges of the present officers and employees. Clause 9 gives to
the council, subject to the Act and to the
by-laws, the control and management of all
property vested in it. This is the same provision as was made for the trustees in the
present Act.
The tenth clause provides for the transfer to the new council of all property, and
all property rights and interests, subject to
the existing conditions or trusts. It provides also for legal proceedings against the
former trustees to be continued against the
council, and for contracts and agreements
of the trustees to be continued as contracts
and agreements of the council.
Clause 11 gives the council power to
accept gifts of property and to agree to the
conditions of such gifts. It provides also
that the law of perpetuities shall not apply
to such conditions. The clause exempts
from the Stamp Duties Act gifts or bequests to the council or to the library. It
provides also that the council deal with
gifts or bequests in accordance with the
directions of the donor. Where conditions
or directions on such gifts are not given,
the clause provides for the council to deal
with them in ways approved by the Governor. This is a restatement of the provisions in the present Act for dealing with
property acquired by donation.
Clause 12 provides for the payment from
moneys provided by Parliament of an
annual endowment to a value approved by
Parliament. This is to provide a statutory
fund for the purchase of books and other
materials for the library, exclusive of those
provided for in normal working expenses.
In the existing legislation there is provision
for a small endowment of $4,000 a year,
but the great bulk of expenditure on library
resources is met from consolidated revenue
under the budget as approved by Parliament. The effect of the new endowment
and statutory fund will be to enable the
council more readily to make commitments
which may extend beyond the end of a
4200
Library of N.S.W. Bill
[ASSEMBLY]
financial year. This will be of great advantage, as it will be appreciated that the purchase of books and periodicals is a
continuing process with continuing commitments.
Clause 13 is a restatement of provisions in
the existing Act. It provides for continuing the arrangements made by the former
trustees with David Scott Mitchell and other
donors, and for the council to enter into
arrangements as it may think fit for the
custody and management of donations to the
library. Jn clause 14 there is the normal
provision for the council to make an
annual report of its proceedings to the
Minister for presentation to Parliament.
A similar provision exists in the present
Act and reports from the trustees have been
presented annually since the trustees were
appointed.
Clause 15 provides for the accounts of the
council to be audited by the AuditorGeneral, and for the application of the
Audit Act to members of the council and
to officers and employees of the library
in the same manner as to accounting
officers of public departments. Clause 16
provides for the council to make by-laws
for the control, management and use of the
library, and for regulating its own proceedings. These are substantially the same
provisions as in the present Act. To these
has been added the provision common to
such bodies as the council of the library
whereby every by-law is to be laid before
each House of Parliament and may be disallowed by resolution of either House.
The schedule to the bill lists the Acts to
be repealed and the extent of the repeal.
The provisions of the bill have been made
known to the present trustees of the public
library and they have been most helpful in
their comments on them. This bill marks a
most important step in the progress of the
oldest and one of the greatest libraries in
Australia. As such I commend it to the
House.
Debate adjourned, on motion by the
Hon. R. R. Downing.
House adjourned on motion by the
Hon. J. B. M. Fuller, at 6.31 p.m.
~.rgtnhtttb.r
i\un.rmbly
Wednesday, 5 March, 1969
Questions without Notice-Dairy Authority (Urgency)
-Interpretation (Amendment) Bill (third reading)
-Child Welfare (Amendment) Bill (second read·
ing)-Aborigines
Bill-Bills
Returned-Forestry
(Amendment) Bill (second reading)-Consumer
Protection Bill-Veterinary Surgeons (Amendment)
Bill-Rural Bank of New South Wales (Amendment) Bill (second reading)-Adjournment (Road
Accident at Black Hill).
Mr SPEAKER (THE HoN. SIR KEVIN
ELLIS) took the chair at 2.30 p.m.
Mr SPEAKER offered the Prayer.
QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
SYDNEY EYE HOSPITAL
Mr HILLS: I ask the Minister for Health
whether a public appeal to raise funds for
the Sydney Eye Hospital was successful and
raised more than $400,000. Will the Minister inform the House of his decision with
respect to the Sydney Hospital, especially
with reference to the Sydney Eye Hospital,
and will he say whether, as Minister, he
would be willing for a further public appeal
to be held if the Government is unable to
provide the balance of funds necessary to
construct a building, which I understand is
worth approximately $1,000,000?
Mr JAGO: Things must be crook with
the Opposition when they get down to matters like this. In answer to the question, Jet
me state that it is true that early in th::
1960's a public appeal which raised
$400,000 was launched. The chairman of
the appeal committee was Mr L. J. Hooker
and a widely representa1ive group of people
were associated with it. The basis on which
the appeal was made was that the Sydney
Eye Hospital would be rebuilt on the existing site. With accumulated interest-there
were some governments that did nothing
about it, too-the figure has now reached
$430,000.
In answering the question I consider it
important to point out to the House that in
November of 1966, Cabinet approved the
rebuilding of the eye hospital on its present site because of a sense of obligation,
because of the need for this most important

mrgt.alttttut (!fouurtl. - parliament of new south wales

Transcription

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