np 205 info Ever wonder exactly what it takes to make

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np 205 info Ever wonder exactly what it takes to make
WheelinDixie.com > Technical > Tech Articles and Links
np 205 info
np 205 info
Ever wonder exactly what it takes to make this fit that, but you
dont have all the parts, nor know what those parts look like?
I figured i could start a thread that might help some of us define
what we need. If you find that I have omitted something, AND I
HAVE!, feel free to post, as long as it is accurate information.
Lets make this as complete as we can to help those guys that
dont have these answers yet.
I stole pictures from where I could, so give some credit to the
people that posted these to begin with:
Offroad Design, off their Np205 page...
Autosource
----7" input------- 10" input------- 4spd input-----th350 input
those are input shafts for the 205
If you have the 10 inch np205 long input, it will stick out of the
transfer case towards the transmission about 4 1/2 inches. there
is an adapter that will allow the th400 to bolt directly to this
using the np208 output shaft. this adapter is about 4 1/2 inches
thick.
it is for use with the LONG input. *the adapter shown is for the
np205, you can tell because the shifters on the passengers side,
not the drivers side... but still can be used for the np208/np241
if it has a passengers side drop.
if you have the 7 inch input, it will stick out of the transfer case
towards the transmission 1 1/2 inches.
ok, those are the transfer case parts, now for the th400 output
shafts...
the short 1 1/4 inch stickout th400 output shaft is on the left. its
for an NP203 to the right is an NP208 shaft for th400.
Click this bar to view the full image.
thats a photo of a standard th400 2wd output shaft, also the
same shaft used for the racetrack style th400-np205 output
shaft.
ok..
how does all this relate?
to make this work, you have to figure out which case youre
using.
if you have a racetrack case, like the one pictured below.... you
need a racetrack adapter, and a standard shaft...
Click this bar to view the full image.
you get the racetrack adapter, and youre there...
sounds easy as pie, eh?
If you have a round faced case, you can use the short adapter,
the th400-np208 output shaft, and put it all together....
and, as you can see, it will even turn a ford NP205 into a usable
unit behind a th400.
The NP205 can be had in many different forms.
If you have a round pattern 205 and want to put it behind a
32spline 465 this is the adapter you will need. They came factory
but aren't always easy to find. I bielieve you can use a 32spline
465 from in front of a 208 too with this adapter.
If you want to make a doubler using this setup you will need a
32spline 203 from behind a th400,a 465/208 adapter,and will
need to re-drill the face on the 203.
You can certainly use the NV4500 GM 32 spline 4x4 output shaft
in the Dodge transmission. This allows for GM or Dodge NV4500
direct coupling to driver drop NP205.
for the shorty input shaft, go to www.tbtrans.com and go to their
transfer case page.
97 bucks
VSS equipped 205's were available in 90 & 91, as for applications
I think they would only have been in crew cabs.
Question: Do 10spline 205's require machining to install a
32spline input?
Yes, they do. The input bearing is smaller on the 10spl, so you're
going to have to have that hole reamed out to fit the 32spl input
bearing.
Here's a good pic from ORD's web site showing the difference
between the two bearings:
I am trying to see if a 27 spline NP205 and factory adapter from
a TH350 will fit a 700R4 with 27 spline?
not without:
1. a custom output shaft
b. an extension on the output shaft of the trans to make up the
space. the shaft is the shorter difference.
the 32 spline output for the sm465 required a roundfaced case, a
long adapter, and a long input shaft for the 205. these parts are
shown in a previous post on this thread.
TH400 to NP205 using the racetrack adapter requires the stock
2wd short boltyoke/slip yoke shaft. You can just remove the
tailshaft housing off a 2wd short shaft trans, and install it in front
of a racetrack adapter and np205.
NP208/np241s required a shorter output shaft, with about 3
inches of stickout from the th400. *(If youre using the Ford
np205 transfer case, you can use this shaft and adapter with the
short th400 input and make it work)
NP203s are.... well.... np203s. doubler parts.
SM465s came in 10 and 32 splines. 10 spline setups used a
coupler that tends to wear, and makes a rattling noise on
deceleration that may drive you nuts. the easy fix may be
something as simple as to fill the sleeve with grease.
to get 32 spline front outputs, grab any divorced np205, or any
Ford NP205, and rob the front output, and bearing retainer from
it. the bearing is the same, but the seal surface on the retainer is
different.
Some NP205s had a synchromesh shift for low speed shifting.
throw it away. after the first 5 or so uses, its no longer a usable
item.
If your transfer case is kicking out of gear, the slider may be the
culprit, so dont just go replacing things willy nilly.
TH350 to NP205:
This setup is a factory setup available from 1968-1982. If you
have a standard car th350, and you want to put it in front of an
NP205, go get the transmission output shaft changed over to the
th350 4x4 output shaft. That, and the adapter with sleeve is all
you need. The spline count on a th350 style np205 is 27. This
case will not bolt up directly to a 4l60/700r4 without a special
output shaft or adapter.
SM465 to NP205
There are two versions of this setup.
One version is for trucks from 68-85 and comes with a coupling
sleeve that has a tendency to wear. This is a ten spline input
version, and shares the same outside dimensions as a th350
case, with the exception of the input spline being 10, and not 27.
The second and later version of this case is what we call the
round faced np205. It has a 32 spline female input, and that
input sticks out about 4 inches from the face of the transfer case
to engage a 32 spline sm465 output shaft. This case has no
coupling sleeve. The input of the transfer case is driven by the
output of the trans, like the th400 application.
http://pirate4x4.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1201999739
th400 to NP205
The factory used 2 different ways to hook this up, and there are
more. Using what you have, or the factory method. The Np205
racetrack pattern *(8 bolts on the transfer case side) adapter,
and the round faced (six bolt) adapter are the two stock choices
for this unit to bolt up.
With the racetrack adapter *(called that because of the long oval
shape of the transfer case end) you must use a short shaft for
th400, namely a 2wd th400 short output and install it directly to
the adapter. This adapter was made from 78-85.
With the roundfaced adapter, you must use an NP208 output
shaft, and the long 4inch input shaft for the round faced np205.
This adapter was made from 85-91-ish…
Alternative options:
Still want to use a th400? And you have a round faced case, but
no adapter? Happen to have the np208 adapter that you got with
a cheap 400?.... your parts are almost together! Change the
input shaft to the older style short input for TH400-Np205 and
youre in business.
If youre stuck with a Ford NP205, and you want to make it work
behind that TH400, change the 31 spline ford input for the 32
spline GM input, reuse the original bearing, because it fits, and
viola` youre done! Well, almost done. To use the ford case, you
have to cut ¼ inch off the bearing retainer on theinput, to reduce
the depth behind the adapter, and countersink the holes for the
retainers bolts. Count on drilling and tapping the face of the Ford
case for 6 bolts to hold the adapter on.
If you want to use it behind an NV 4500, with a ford drivers side
drop NP205 case, you can use the GM NV 4500 tailhousing and
32 spline output shaft to mate to a 32 spline input inside the ford
case. Of course, you will have to drill and tap the holes to make
it fit.
If you have a 10 spline case, or a TH350 case, you can use the
respective transmission to hook it up. If you want to hook that
10 spline or 27 spline case up behind anything else that has a 32
spline output, whether it be an sm465, nv4500, or th400, you
must have the case bored for the larger bearing
th350 to racetrack 205 adapter:
SM465 to racetrack 205 adapter
BCA # 1307L (small input bearing)
outer dia = 3.1496
bore = 1.3780
width = .8268
BCA # 1210L (big input bearing)
outer dia = 3.5433
bore = 1.9685
width = .7874
Here are the pics of my chevy 205. It came out of a '83 K20 and
is behind a 400 trans.
Front output flange removed.
Rear aluminum plate removed.
Complete front output shaft assembly from chevy 205.
Ford 205 front output assembly.
Here you can see it uses a collar that slids over the teeth.
Ford shaft on the left. Notice the part where the teeth are is
smaller.
Chevy 205 shift fork.
The adapter is 4" long.
I want to say it was about 10 1/2" tall.
Note the differences in the 205; shifter slide assemblies, veined
rear cover for the front output (which uses a smaller bearing
than the typical cover) and different 30 spline front output shaft.
In (at least) 83 & 84 GM offered trucks with D60's equipped with
auto locking hubs, these trucks had a syncro'd 205 which
allowed low speed "shift on the fly" capabilities.
Here is a pic of the rear cover on a typical 205 -
Here is a pic of the rear cover on a syncro'd 205 NOTE THE OILING VEIN AT APPROX 11:00
GM 205: (1969-1991, right hand drop)
-27 spline male input small bearing for THM350 (69-82)
-10 spline male input small bearing for SM465 (69-85)
-32 spline male long input large bearing for SM465 (86??-91)
-32 spline male short input large bearing for THM400 (78-85)
-inputs compatable with Ford, Dodge.
-1980-1991 were slip yoke rear output.
-1968-1978 had 10 spline front outputs.
-1977-1986 had 30 spline front outputs.
-1982 and some 83-84 1-ton 205's were synchronized.
-32 spline inputs can be short or long style.
-6 bolt round mount pattern was 1985-1991 automatic trans.
-8 bolt racetrack pattern from 1969-1991.
-32 spline THM400 applications used a large bore input bearing
housing.
Dodge 205: (1969-1974 all, 1974-1988 1-ton only, and
1989-1993 Cummins
W250 & W350 only; right hand drop)
-23 spline male input for 1975-1993 except diesel.
-29 spline male input for 1989-1993 Cummins 5-speed.
-32 spline front output.
Ford 205: (driver side drop)
-31 spline female large input.
-32 spline front outputs.
-divorced mount is 32 spline male input.
-inputs compatable with GM, Dodge.
Just found this pic of a 205 bolted to a th400/208 adapter.
Ford 205's.
1/2 tons prior to 79 will have 1310 u-joints, 79 and up went to
1330 size u-joints. the 1330 yoke has a larger sleeve od,
therefore the corresponding seal id is larger. The seal od is the
same, therefore the bearing retainers are the same, and
interchangeable.
3/4 tons always used the 1330 out back(I'm not sure about
where they used the F though) since the rear was a Dana 60 and
that was the standard size for that. Prior to 79, if the front was a
44, it would have had the 1310. 79 and later would have had the
1330, but, the F-250 was also available in 78 and 79 with a Dana
60 front end, which would have got the 1330 regardless of year.
Since the 79 F-350 was a 79 and had D60's f/r, naturally they all
had twin 1330's as well.
Hopefully you can see now that any combination of f/r yoke size
is possible on any vehicle since these trucks are now 30+, and
have undoubtably had many swaps since then. When
encountered with these challenges, the installer could have used
a combo joint, parts from a donor drive shaft, redid his drive
shaft, or swapped one or both his yokes(and seal) on the
replacement case, so now anything is possible. The only trick is
getting the size yoke you want to run, and then the correct
corresponding seal. They are all 32 spline yokes, and the seal
ods and bearing retainers are all the same, so they are
completely interchangeable
Another little tidbit along the 78/79 break also. Prior to 79, the
linkage between the shifter and equalizer bar on the case was
constructed of roundbar. In 79, they went to a flat bar design.
I'm told the flat bar is stronger, but I never had a problem with
the roundbars, and to me it seems like if you don't have a super
free pivot on the shifter the flat bar is harder to throw. The
roundbar is much more forgiving on angles and stuff when it
starts to get worn(IMO).
1350 series have 1 3/16" caps
1 1/16" cap x 3 5/8" cross 1330 small cap
1 1/8" cap x 3 5/8" cross 1330 big cap
1 3/16" cap x 3 5/8" cross 1350 '
the deal with the synchro'd 205 is this:
If in the future you wanted to change up to a 32 spline front
output, you will need all of the internals from the donor case to
swap into the GM 205 case. The shift fork is different, the slider
is different, and on a 32 spline front output, the bearing retainer
has a larger seal opening for the appropriate seal. Even the rear
cover on the np205 case has to be replaced as the roller
bearings are a different diameter than the cover for a nonsynchro case.
Bolt Pattern:
All GM NP205 cases 1971-1985 had a 8 bolt "racetrack" bolt
pattern
All GM NP205 Cases 1986-up had a 6 bolt circular bolt pattern
Input Spline: GM Used four different input shaft configurations
on these cases.
10 spline: (1971-85) The most common were units supplied with
a 4 speed which typically had a 10 spline male input shaft.
27 spline: (1971-79) The units supplied with a T350 automatic
have a 27 spline male input shaft.
32 spline (Short); 32 spl (Long): The units supplied with a T400
Automatic (also SM465 86-up) have a 32 spline female input. We
have seen both a short (about 1.5 to 2.0" stickout) and long
(more like 3-3.5" stickout) versions of this gear. This gear is
directly compatible with the Klune-V Extreme Underdrive, which
can be supplied with a 32 spline output shaft. Longer spacers are
required with the long input.
Also see data on swapping input gears lower on this page.
1979 to 1985 GM NP205: 8 bolt "racetrack" bolt pattern:
During these years, the GM NP205 showed up behind Turbo 400
and SM465 Transmissions in 1 Ton trucks only.. 1/2 and 3/4 T
trucks began to be supplied with the NP208 instead. SM465 units
will still typically use the 10 spline input. Turbo 400 units have
the stout 32 spline female input (in most cases the short 32 spl
input, about 1.5-2.0" stickout) however still uses the 8 bolt
"racetrack" bolt pattern.
1986 and Later GM NP205: 6 Bolt circular bolt pattern:
At this point GM updated the unit to use the same 6 bolt circular
bolt pattern used on the NP208, and all subsequent GM full size
4x4 truck applications. All of them are the 32 spline female
input, although those we have seen are the long (about 3.5"
stickout) 32 spl input.
Front Output
GM used two front output shaft configurations, one had a spline
count of 10, the other was a 30 spline. 10 splines came before
1977 (roughly) 30 spline shafts came after 1977 (again,
roughly). One quick way to tell them apart is by the fact that 10
splines came with a 1310 series yoke output, capable of
accepting a CV or yoke driveshaft. 30 spline shafts came with the
flat flange on the output, capable of accepting the GM 3R series
CV joint.
The 10 spline output will accept the stock 1310; Or a separately
purchased 1330 or 1350 Spicer u-joint yoke, and the 1310 CV
yoke. The 30 spline flange will accept the 1330 or 1350 CV
joints.
Rear Output
The most popular version Is a 32 spline shaft / fixed yoke and
will accept a 1310, 1330, or 1350 u-joint yoke, and the 1310 CV
yoke.
Some were slip yoke, with a longer tailhousing. Parts are
available from us to convert these to fixed yoke, if desired.
Ford New Process 205 Transfer Case
NP205 Ford
The Ford NP205 transfer case uses the 6 bolt circular bolt
pattern . It has a left hand drop (driver's side). It is supplied with
a 31 spline female input.
Rear Output
Is a 32 spline shaft and will accept a 1310, 1330, or 1350 u-joint
yoke, and the 1310 CV yoke.
Front Output
Is customarily a 32 spline shaft, same as the rear with
interchangeable yokes.
Dodge NP205 Transfer Case
The Dodge NP205 transfer cases are mostly an 8 bolt pattern like
the early Chevy. Some late units had the 6 bolt circular pattern.
These units all have a right hand drop. Most are supplied with a
23 spline male input shaft and used with a coupler.
29 Spline Dodge: There is a fairly rare 29 spline NP205 used in
Dodge trucks behind the Getrag 5 speed. The NP205 used behind
automatics are all 23 spline, even in the 1 Ton Cummins apps.
Later applications of this case appear to use a short adapter to
bolt to the front of the Tcase, and has the 6 bolt circular pattern
found on the transmission tailhousing adapter. This adapter also
functions as a bearing retainer in the front of the Tcase and
carries the input seal. The casting used for the 23 spline input is
different than the one used for the 29 spline, due to the larger
bearing and seal. The 23 spline part CAN be machined out to
accept the 29 spline parts, but with TLC as it does not leave
much meat in some places. These adapters seem to be kinda
hard to find on the boneyard circuit, and are apparently no
longer available new from Dodge.
Also see data on swapping input gears lower on this page.
Divorced NP 205 Transfer cases (Dodge – Ford – Chevy)
Are the same as the corresponding married (Married = bolts to
directly to the trans), however, divorced units are mounted on
their own crossmember separate from the trans. They have a
yoke type input, and are coupled to the trans with a short (1-2')
driveshaft
Ford NP205 Divorced
Transfer Case Specifications:
Low Range reduction ratio: 1.96:1
Transfer Case Overall Length : approx 14”
(measured from bolt-up surface to U-joint center in Rear yoke)
Swapping input gears in NP205s
Dodge, Ford and GM input gears are all internally
interchangeable in all NP205s with one MAJOR detail:
GM 27 and 10sp, and Dodge 23 spl all used a SMALL dia input
bearing and seal. These shafts can be swapped directly among
themselves.
GM32, Ford 31 and Dodge 29 spl used a LARGER dia bearing.
These shafts can be swapped among them selves directly
If you want to upgrade an NP205 with a 10,27 or 23 spl input to
a 29, 31 or 32 spl input: The case must be fully disassembled
and the opening where the input bearing sits must be machined
out to accept the larger dia bearing. A larger seal is also used.
The adapter or bearing retainer must fit the Larger dia bearing.
Twin-Stick operation for a 205
The 205 can be twin-sticked much in the same manner as a
Dana 300 and other gear drive transfer cases.
There is an internal interlock shuttle pin inside the unit that must
be removed:
The transfer case must be disassembled to where the shift rails
can be removed. In the front, in the bosses where the shift rails
come out, there are detent springs and balls on both shift rails.
Also, inside, in between the shift rails, is a shuttle pin that slides
back and forth between the shift rails in order to properly
sequence shifting for a single stick operation. This shuttle pin will
not allow full twin stick operation, and must be removed. You
want to keep the detent springs and balls. For full Tcase
disassembly info and diagrams, refer to a rebuild manual for the
case.
Externally, it is simply a matter of rigging a system that will
operate each shift lever independently.
Twin Sticking a 205 when using a Klune underdrive:
The inner shift rail is located inside the front mounting bolt
circle: In some cases (such as a Klune underdrive) the housing
of the gearbox does not allow a linkage rod to be directly
connected to the rail. In this case, it is possible to built a lever
system to couple in the twin stick. We did this on a Bronco I had.
Unfortunately, I have no pictures of this to publish. I will attempt
to describe in words how I made my 205 twin stick work: I made
a bracket that botls to the two bolt holes on the outer end of the
205. I ran an lever arm to the inner shift rail which pivots off this
bkt. I attached the rod from the inner shifter stick to this lever
arm about 1.5" out from the shifter rail.
If you are purchasing a 205 from us, we will perform the internal
mods at no additional charge at the time of buildup.
77 banana-400,208 sye,1 tons
456's,oba,linked,streched,boatsided,46's,propane, warn 8274
06 chevy3500 dually-mostly stock,predator,sims,hids,k&n,tv/
dvd,bully dog watch dog,tinted windows...soon to come backup
camera,backup sensors and a led dash upgrade.
Last edited by twoslo4five0; May 6th, 2009 at 04:43 PM..
May 6th, 2009, 04:52 PM
#2
twoslo4five0
twoslo4five0 Enterprises
Vehicle: 1977 banana boatsided linked stretched propane 1tons locked F&R
exo 4.56 gears warn 8274 400/465/208
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: chesterfield,va
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iTrader: (7)
700r to a 205
find a 27 spline (th350) 205,and the adapter part#7Q35A,and
cut around 1/4" off the tailshaft of the tranny.I cut about 3/8 of
an in and have read 1/8 in.just took a bunch of measurements
before i cut
most tranny shops should beable to get the adapter,it is made
for swapping out a 700r and putting in a 350 as they are 1 7/8in
different.best part it was only 55 bucks
http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/...15&Search.y=16
found a clocking plate for racetrack pattern 205s that I didnt
know about. Here is the post that brought it to my attention.
http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost....1&postcount=16
You have an early model NP 205. The speedo gear is pinched
between a spacer, a ball bearing, and the yoke.
This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image
is sized 480x640.
This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image
is sized 1783x1339.
77 banana-400,208 sye,1 tons
456's,oba,linked,streched,boatsided,46's,propane, warn 8274
06 chevy3500 dually-mostly stock,predator,sims,hids,k&n,tv/
dvd,bully dog watch dog,tinted windows...soon to come backup
camera,backup sensors and a led dash upgrade.
May 6th, 2009, 08:14 PM
#3
Gotlabs
GFY
Vehicle: 2wd knee son front ear
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Locust Grove VA
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iTrader: (3)
Nice post Jay, that is a lot of good info. Just in time for me to
upgrade my 205.
“If Barack Obama had given a speech on bowling, it might well
have been brilliant and inspiring. But instead he actually tried
bowling and threw a gutter ball. The contrast between talking and
doing could not have been better illustrated."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim
Screw haiti, send me your money
Got questions? PM or Email me -­‐‑>[email protected]
May 6th, 2009, 08:20 PM
#4
clarkjw24
Short Mod
Vehicle: 86 K5=a banana's worse nightmare.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotlabs
Nice post Jay, that is a lot of good info. Just in time for me to
upgrade my 205 to 203.
Loser.
Need help with the site? contact me at
[email protected]
Learn to run your brain before you run your mouth.
What did he say?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badass
might go test johns new meats
May 6th, 2009, 08:42 PM
#5
twoslo4five0
twoslo4five0 Enterprises
Vehicle: 1977 banana boatsided linked stretched propane 1tons locked F&R
exo 4.56 gears warn 8274 400/465/208
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: chesterfield,va
My location
Posts: 4,871
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Rep Power: 2379
iTrader: (7)
thats like at least 3 cigs worth of reading material
77 banana-400,208 sye,1 tons
456's,oba,linked,streched,boatsided,46's,propane, warn 8274
06 chevy3500 dually-mostly stock,predator,sims,hids,k&n,tv/
dvd,bully dog watch dog,tinted windows...soon to come backup
camera,backup sensors and a led dash upgrade.
May 6th, 2009, 08:57 PM
#6
wmterry89
Drives like an old man...
Vehicle: '02 GMC 3500 CC/DRW/Duramax,(DD), '72 Jimmy(trailrig), '72
K20(resto)
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and its absolutly useless.........
...to me
William
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