“Vibrato Wars” Threads - National Early Music Association UK

Transcription

“Vibrato Wars” Threads
Vibrato Wars, Threads V1 to V15, Introduction ...................................................................................................... 2
V1. George Kennaway, launched 12 Dec 2015 ....................................................................................................... 3
V2. Robert Berger, launched on 19 Dec 2015 ....................................................................................................... 20
V3. Shaun Ng, launched on 24 Dec 2015 .............................................................................................................. 27
V4. Debbie Winter, Launched 18 Jan 2016 ........................................................................................................... 29
V5. George Kennaway, launched 21 Jan 2016 ...................................................................................................... 54
V6. Richard Bethell, launched 21 Jan 2016 ........................................................................................................... 57
V7. George Kennaway, launched 21 Jan 2016 ...................................................................................................... 59
V8. Nicholas Clapton, launched 21 Jan 2016 ........................................................................................................ 60
V9. Christopher Suckling, launched 23 Jan 2016 .................................................................................................. 66
V10. Catherine O’Connor, launched 26 Jan 2016 ................................................................................................. 79
V11. Oliver Webber, launched 27 Jan 2016 .......................................................................................................... 86
V12. Christopher Wilke, launched 28 Jan 2016 .................................................................................................. 108
V13. Nicholas Clapton, launched 28 Jan 2016 .................................................................................................... 109
V14. Richard Bethell, launched 9 Feb 2016 ........................................................................................................ 137
V15. Bec Duggan, launched 1 March 2016 ......................................................................................................... 149
V16. George Kennaway, launched 4 March 2016 ............................................................................................... 151
V17. Ben Palmer, launched 7 March 2016 ......................................................................................................... 154
V18. George Kennaway, launched 11 March 2016 ............................................................................................. 155
V19. Esther Visser, launched 15 March 2016 ..................................................................................................... 165
Subject Index ..................................................................................................................................................... 166
FB Vibrato Wars
Introduction
Page 1
Vibrato Wars, Threads V1 to V15, Introduction
This document contains some 1,200 posts launched by at least 100 members of Facebook’s Historical
Performance Research group, during the three months from 12 December 2015. It was apparent from my FB
friends’ profiles and timelines that most active contributors are busy professional musicians working at least part
of their time in early music. The text is exactly as recorded on FB, although I have corrected some “fat finger”
misspellings and typos, and included explanatory words in square brackets here and there. The conversations
were launched by the Group’s administrator, George Kennaway, who raised the important question: “What do
you think is the single most interesting/problematic issue in historical performance research and practice today?”
The responses covered much ground, such as:- where next for HIP (including the limits of literalism)?; rhythm,
pronunciation, poetry & metre in baroque Opera, especially recitative; performing music from original notation;
moving on from anachronistic or avant-garde opera production, staging, costume and gesture; the role of the
music director/ conductor; overcoming modern constructs of “composer’s intentions” and conformist HIP
assumptions by enhancing personal contributions and promoting improvisation; poor teaching of early music;
Chiavette; various string playing issues (e.g. avoiding chin/shoulder rests in violin playing, the use of wound
strings, employing gut strings closer to historical artefacts); encouraging use of “holeless” natural trumpets;
matching performance spaces to repertoire.
While many items cropped up several times, the standout issue was the prevalence of (allegedly) historically illinformed singing, notably continuous vibrato. Christopher Suckling posted: “The recurrent mention of singing is a
fine example of a need to re-evaluate historical sources in the light of intuitions gained through performance. Is
it, for example, physiologically possible to sing in a substantial eighteenth century Italian opera house without the
voice developing a certain tremolo? If not, as some would argue, when we read historical sources discussing vocal
'vibrato', what was the understood context for that word and how can it relate to our current practices? (P.S. 'I
don't know' is my answer to that example, but the potential for understanding excites me!)” An intense and often
heated debate ensued, with some contributors adopting diametrically opposed positions, viz. reformers justifying
a return to historically informed vocalism by reference to the historical record, against status quo defenders.
I offer a few notes on how to use the document:
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The file is large, and may take some time to load. It is structured, with a table of contents listing all
threads; if you Ctrl click on a thread heading, Word will take you to the first page of the thread. The
thread number and date launched appears in the footer, so you can always see what thread you are in.
Apart from accessing particular threads, the reader is on his own, given that the document is in content
terms completely unstructured. Having said that, some threads do focus on particular topics. For example
Thread V13 includes an interesting discussion of non-Western vocal traditions, plus YouTube links. And
Thread V15 is completely dedicated to the originator’s request for 17th century sources. In addition, I
have supplied a detailed subject index, although this does not include contributors, except where they
are also performers or researchers. Contributors can easily be searched for using Word’s Find function.
To search the document, go to Editing, select Find, enter the word you are searching on, and the
sentences found will be identified in the Navigation column. However, if you want to search for mentions
of “Sting” you will need to select “Advanced Find” and tick the option “Find Whole Words only”, which
will stop Word selecting multiple occurrences of words like “interesting”.
I’ve checked links to texts, YouTube videos and other external sources. They seem to work.
The only non-functioning facility is Facebook’s identification of most individuals liking a particular post.
The text in this document will simply read, for example, Like….8, meaning that 8 people like the post. You
will sometimes see Unlike….9; this does not mean that 9 people dislike the post, only that I was the last
person to like the post, so that (on my system and therefore in this transcript) “Like” has toggled to
“Unlike”.
Richard Bethell
FB Vibrato Wars
Version 4, 23 March 2016
Introduction
Page 2
V1. George Kennaway, launched 12 Dec 2015
George Kennaway celebrating Christmas.
12 December 2015
I've been away from this page for a while, so I thought I'd try to start a general conversation in the run up to
2016. What do you think is the single most interesting/problematic issue in historical performance research and
practice today? Season's greetings to one and all.
12 people like this.
Comments
Bob Mitchell Singers
Like · · 16 · 12 December 2015 at 10:54
Catherine Motuz And not just problematic, but interesting—many singers I know are embracing the ethos
of HIP in a way only few have before. If this movement is to be renewed, I think it will be at least in part
through their efforts.
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 14:32
Simone Laghi Performance space appropriate to repertoire (id: chamber music in huge halls is probably wrong)
Like · · 4 · 12 December 2015 at 11:17
David Hansell For anyone living within reasonable reach of Guildford, Surrey, UK there are regular
brilliant concerts in the music room (seats about 100) here http://www.cobbecollection.co.uk/
Home - THE COBBE COLLECTION
The Cobbe Collection includes the largest group of musical instruments owned or…
cobbecollection.co.uk
Like · · 2 · 12 December 2015 at 11:59
John B Dick St Cecilia's Hall, Edinburgh.
Like · · 12 December 2015 at 18:52
John B Dick Not probably wrong, certainly wrong, and sometimes the audience could be on three, if not
four sides of the performers.
Shannon Cline Living the struggle in Philadelphia. Especially if you want a space with good acoustics but
not religious iconography.
Like · · 2 · 13 December 2015 at 05:00 · Edited
Klaus Miehling Singers, too, (that is mainly: (less) vibrato and historical pronunciation), and strings. And opera
staging.
Like · · 5 · 12 December 2015 at 11:27
Oliver Webber Can you expand on "strings"? Pet subject of mine...
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Klaus Miehling Oliver Webber I mean not to use wound strings for early baroque or even renaissance
music. - And in respect to "strings" as stringed instruments: Not to use chin- and shoulder rests for music
before the early romantic.
Oliver Webber I still get a shock when I see a high-baroque/classically set-up cello with 2 wound strings
playing all the continuo lines in Monteverdi. Wrong instrument, wrong strings, wrong usage! It's much
rarer than it used to be thankfully but still happens.
Like · · 2 · 12 December 2015 at 17:44
Klaus Miehling It's the same with viols: An 7-string basse de viole with three or even four wound strings
playing Monteverdi is still quite common. frown emoticon
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 18:02
Mike Parker Oliver Webber .. try early harp..... anything pre pedal will do for any period.... and a 'baroque
harp has to have a low G for Monteverdi, and a top Eb for Handel... on the same instrument...
Shaun Ng Marin Marais was known for using three brass-wound strings on the bass, so wound strings
aren't really the issue. It's just not the right instrument for Monteverdi.
Like · · 1 · 10 January at 06:36
Oliver Webber Was it 3 or 2? I had in mind that it was 2 in Marais's time but 3 plus demi-filée by
Forqueray's. However I don't have the evidence to hand...
Shaun Ng Titon du Tillet says the lowest three strings. Quite safe to assume it was a 7-string viol. Haven't
tried these (historical) brass strings before. Only one maker makes them and I don't think it is part of his
usual output.
Like · · 10 January at 10:01
Mike Parker Do you have formula for the brass? I don't have a date for yellow brass becoming common,
but certainly into the 17th C 'brass' generally has a c. 75% copper content.
Shaun Ng Jonathan Dunford once showed me a historical document that mentioned brass, but I don't
remember where.
David Hansell Especially opera staging
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 11:57
Sarah Potter I agree - singing
Unlike · · 3 · 12 December 2015 at 12:00
Cathal Twomey As a singer/conductor of singers, singing technique and (historical) pronunciation. As a
listener/musicologist... That's harder, maybe staging too?
Jedediah Allen Un-transposed 1610 Vespers.
Like · · 9 · 12 December 2015 at 12:16
Oliver Webber Rhythm and awareness of poetry and metre in 17th century opera. I'm sure Bill Hunt
would have that on his list, too smile emoticon
Like · · 8 · 12 December 2015 at 12:20
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David Hansell so singers again!
Cathal Twomey Metre (and lack of awareness thereof in general) being a hang-up of mine, and musicopoetic analysis standing as my main research topic at the moment, I second that!
Like · · 3 · 12 December 2015 at 12:22
Oliver Webber I had an interesting session working on Italian text with some students recently. It wasn't a
music coaching session so I didn't have free rein, but as far as I could I encouraged close attention to
what the composers (Monteverdi and Cavalli in this case) had notated rhythmically. Often the initial
reaction was surprise because they had learned that recitative was "free", followed a few minutes later
by "oh that makes so much more sense now". It was a very constructive session smile emoticon.
Like · · 3 · 12 December 2015 at 12:26
Oliver Webber Cathal have you written anything on the topic that you'd be able to share?
Cathal Twomey My research (a masters dissertation) is in its infancy at the moment, nor am I focussing
particularly on continental opera, it's mostly English music of the later seventeenth- to mid-eighteenth
centuries, so maybe not feeding into your field (which sounds fascinating, by the way!), though I'd be
happy to share some of it if you like once it coheres a little more! Despite never having undertaken
specific study of the topic, I'm really interested in the rhythmic functions of early Baroque recitative
(Monteverdi, Cavalli, Carissimi, and then as it feeds into the declamatory styles of Lully and Purcell via
Locke and Blow), so I'd love to hear your thoughts if YOU'RE willing to share... Maybe message/email me?
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 12:39
Oliver Webber Just off to rehearse Bach- I'll be in touch- thank you!
Cathal Twomey Enjoy!
Oscar Verhaar Or feel free to share coherent thoughts on this page!
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 13:02
Cathal Twomey If I ever have a coherent thought, I'll be sure to do that! Going on past experience,
though, not promising...
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 13:09
Catherine Motuz ^^Do you know about Elena Abramov van Rijk's book from 2014: Singing Dante: The
Literary Origins of Cinquecento Monody? I've only started skimming it but it looks revolutionary (and is
about exactly what you describe)!
Like · · 3 · 12 December 2015 at 14:36
Oliver Webber Thank you! Will order it today smile emoticon
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 14:36
Jane Booth Oliver Webber at the Guildhall School by any chance?
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 19:09
Bill Hunt Thanks, Oliver Webber, that is indeed on my list. Likewise a parallel awareness of the rhythmic
energy of language, even when not in formal verse, in English music of the same period, viz verse anthem
(especially Gibbons). And I'd like to add another issue, brilliantly identified by Anne Smith's recent study
'The performance 16th century music, learning from the theorists': viz how an understanding of late
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Renaissance musical theory, such as hexachord and mode, can explain text-setting and lead to a different
concept of phrasing.
Like · · 2 · 13 December 2015 at 00:20
Oliver Webber Just started reading Anne Smith smile emoticon
Like · · 2 · 13 December 2015 at 01:01
Oliver Webber Jane: yes!
Helen France We have excellent long weekends at Hawkwood with James Weeks studying Gesualdo
Madrigals Book 5 and Monteverdi Madrigals Book 3 and the lynchpin of both weekends was indeed
trying to persuade our English larynx/mouth/tongue/voice to capture the inflection and unique energy of
the Italian language.
Like · · 1 · 13 December 2015 at 21:58
Lewis Ewan Jones Pronunciation.
Like · · 3 · 12 December 2015 at 12:33
Marten Noorduin With apologies for breaking the consistency of specific issues in performance and research: the
lack of Socratic awareness of the limits of knowledge in many performers, which seems to be the root cause of
almost all the issues above. I don't mind performers being ignorant about certain aspects of historical
performance, as long as they don't pretend to know something that they really don't. Happy holidays!
Like · · 10 · 12 December 2015 at 12:43
George Kennaway Thanks Marten! I've been fascinated by this thread so far. I would add: the aesthetic challenge
posed by the death of the work concept and its possible replacement by a performative ontology. And a happy
new year!
Like · · 11 · 12 December 2015 at 12:47
Simone Laghi I had to sit and re-read this!
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 14:05
John B Dick What's that in plain English, and how does this understanding enlighten your playing of Jingle
Bells?
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 18:18
Nadya Markovska In addition to Marten's message: the flexibility of the notated text and the possibility of
multiple interpretive models; realising (and maybe experimenting with) that it might be more productive to get
away from the ideal of establishing an authoritative text (exemplary model) against which to compare and judge
every interpretive attempt.
Like · · 10 · 12 December 2015 at 12:54
Mike Bayliss Chiavette - as I found out the hard way recently when attempting to sing with a consort of viols
playing in a key so remote from what I had notated in front of me that I found it impossible to pitch!
Like · · 4 · 12 December 2015 at 13:49
Helen France Yes, Mike Bayliss, it's a total bu**er!
John B Dick I found that problem when a church organ had been left transposing down for the previous
Sunday.
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John B Dick I have sung Beethoven’s Choral Fantasia from a Tenor clef part score [Yes I’m as old as that] I
can transpose for A and Bb clarinets. I may be the only person who has ever learned to play on the basset
horn, melodies written in tablature for four course guitar but never again will I sing from any score
composed or edited by John Rutter, because of the risk of high BP causing another CVA.
You can be singing a second Tenor part in its own octave tenor clef and turn over the page to choose your
part from one of three notes in the bass clef.
That may be acceptable in barely literate CoE parish choirs learning by rote at almost the end of a
tradition which has been declining for 400 years.
Some folk can read, others memorise, improvise or ornament. I failed in a Gaelic choir because I couldn’t
remember the words without the music in front of me or vice versa.
I don’t know all the words of Auld Lang Syne and though oddly I do remember,
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King.
I hesitate to decide which verse of the usual words comes second.
Ján Janovčík For mainly 16th cent. music: performance from the original notation. Proper transpositions in the
same.
Like · · 4 · 12 December 2015 at 13:50
Mike Bayliss I suspect we were performing with a conductor/ arranger who didn't really understand what he was
doing but wouldn't admit it!
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 13:52
Dominic Wan In Singapore , 2 problems, related:
1. Lots of kids learning classical music, none of it on early instruments.
2. I know of no music teachers (mostly pianists) encouraging students to play obvious but un-notated cadential
trills (and too many other performance-related things). In fact, students are often discouraged from this apparent
'risk-taking'.
Christopher Wilke Yes!
Mike Bayliss In fact, I know a number of youngsters who are learning an early instrument, namely the
recorder - but it is almost invariably treated like a glorified tin whistle before they 'graduate' to a 'real'
instrument, and is frequently taught by teachers press-ganged into doing it who have zero knowledge of
either recorder technique or performance practice.
Jonathan Bellman Every year I use the old (1975) David Munrow vids in class, and he opined the precise
same thing.
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Dominic Wan Strange, Jonathan, I thought things were only this retarded in the boonies, not in Europe
and the US.
Geoff Thomason Being honest about the extent to which we're willing to compromise our own cultural
preferences. Opera staging, mentioned above, is a case in point. I'm convinced that the reason we pair musically
scholarly performances of Baroque opera with anachronistic staging, costume or gesture is because at the end of
the day we need to make them compatible with our own concept of dramatic viability rather than those of 17th
or 18th century audiences. It's ultimately little different from the former practice of re-orchestrating the music to
accommodate later tastes and norms. Somewhere along the line we have to admit that we can't recreate the
historical mindset. We have to be honest as well about whether we're being faithful to a composer's intentions in
merely being faithful to their assumptions. Questions of performance practice in, for example, Bach's choral
works, deal with what to him were the givens. How often do we realise his real intentions that these works were
to be performed as part of divine worship on specific liturgical feasts? A Matthew Passion in the concert hall or a
Handel opera set in Weimar Berlin, however musically HIP, are huge acts of compromise, and we should be
honest about it.
Mike Bayliss While accepting to some extent your point about Baroque opera staging, I still think that
some modern-day directors go overboard to show how avant-garde they are, rather than making any
attempt to understand what they are setting - I see, for instance, no good reason why the first act
Glyndebourne’s recent production of Rameau's 'Hippolyte et Aricie' should have been set in a domestic
refrigerator!
John B Dick What's different about Baroque Opera? A few years ago I saw Boris in Berlin. I could not tell
what language they were singing in. Surtitles were in in German. My German is only enough to get by in
travel, supermarket and orchestra. There were mobile phones on stage. I had mistakenly thought that I
would be able to follow the action because I had sung in the chorus of a Scottish Opera production 40+
years previously. I couldn't even tell when the performance was coming to an end, though the death of
Boris (David Ward) in the earlier production had been memorable and moving.
Geoff Thomason But did the production make a great show of how much the singing and orchestral
playing were scrupulously aiming to recreate Russian performance practice of the period? I suspect not.
Christopher Wilke Gut strings: they're not what they were. So many performance practice issues from pitch to
articulation to ornamentation are predicated on the tensile strength, elasticity and tactile sensation of the
material. Despite the fact that contemporary iconography demonstrates quite different physical properties, we
seem content to believe that, since the base material is (probably?) the same, the strings we have are "close
enough " to the historical artefact.
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Oliver Webber Treble strings are still a problem in terms of achieving the flexibility clearly in evidence
from these paintings. However there have been some big steps forward in recreating better thicker
strings for mid-range and bass strings in the last couple of decades.
Christopher Wilke Etc, etc.
Like · · 3 · 12 December 2015 at 14:26
Klaus Miehling But I am glad that we haven't to complain any more about too slow tempi! smile emoticon
Like · · 2 · 12 December 2015 at 14:28
Ján Janovčík It's fascinating how many times singers are mentioned!
Klaus Miehling Though there are probably more good ones than ever before since we have recordings! But in
opera ... grumpy emoticon
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 14:33
Sue Miller Improvisation.
Like · · 5 · 12 December 2015 at 14:40
Ján Janovčík Absolutely. Improvisation, diminution, ornamentation! In plain-chant - which still today
seems as absolute taboo, contrary to all the sources talking about it. Improvised polyphony. Diminution
in 16th century music - of which we hear precious little...
Like · · 2 · 12 December 2015 at 19:44
Christopher Wilke Overcoming the irrelevant modern constructs of "composer's intention," "authenticity," or
even lingering notions of the "Great Master" narrative. (Thou Shalt Not play BACH that way!) Sources clearly
demonstrate that there were a multiplicity of approaches in use simultaneously and there existed no clear-cut
distinction between composer, improviser, and performer. There is, however, every indication that, within
general stylistic guidelines, personal interpretation on the part of performers was expected and lauded.
We should be the most free of classical musicians. Instead, many of us are among the most inhibited, feeling
compelled to carry the burden not only of flawless technique, but also fear of transgressing well-researched, but
spurious rules, which only satisfy the expectations of 21st century pundits.
Like · · 12 · 12 December 2015 at 15:05
John B Dick At this time of year I dread hearing the sharpened final chord in Coventry Carol. Maybe with
counselling I could in time make a full recovery, or I could move to Syria. It was as long ago as 1969 that
Eric Halfpenny drew my attention to the justification for it and the then recently published evidence
against.
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John B Dick 'Multiplicity of approaches' can easily be construed as anything goes.
Christopher Wilke Not really.
Christopher Wilke We know that virtually no two towns tuned to the same pitch level, yet many of us
today find it plausible that performers from large swaths of geography played in essentially the same
way. I'm not denying the existence of a broad period approach (particularly the French, Italian, German,
etc. stylistic manifestations); simply that there is something in the spirit of performance that transcends
following rubrics. Once the conventions are learned and internalized, I believe we need not so heartily
suppress our personal contributions as many seem intent to believe is appropriate.
Bob Mitchell Back to singers...after listening to a beautifully smooth recording of some Caurroy chansons by
Denis Raisin Dadre & Ensemble Doulce Memoire, I wonder what would it take for an English ensemble to sing
with inner parts quite so exact...
Clive McClelland Tuning. Especially in a resonant space. Often there are disparities between singers who
instinctively adjust pitch according to circumstance, and instruments that physically can't adjust (or performers
that can, but won't).
Like · · 2 · 12 December 2015 at 16:48
John B Dick We think we are recreating historical conditions of performance sometimes but have undue emphasis
on aspects which happen to be fashionable or practical in new music.
John B Dick Who performs, or rather experiments, by playing baroque music with scant rehearsal, in a cold
draughty church, using manuscript scores (some prepared by unskilled hands) lit by candlelight and without false
teeth or glasses. For a truly historical performance style, one of the players should be randomly dismissed 20
minutes before the performance is due to start, and replaced by another playing his third best instrument who is
himself replaced by a substitute ...
Like · · 5 · 12 December 2015 at 18:15
David Hansell And one or two just don’t show up at all . . .
Oliver Webber Well there's no shortage of baroque concerts with scant rehearsal in cold draughts
churches with inadequate parts...
Like · · 7 · 12 December 2015 at 18:39
Ryan Kinney I would happily attend this concert.
John B Dick And .. the now better understood effects of alcohol
Geoff Thomason It would, of course, have to be music written yesterday and which all the players were
therefore sight reading.
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 19:52
Job Ter Haar But none of these players ever exposed to Casals' slow cello suites, drum computers and
auto tuned singers!
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John B Dick The slow 'cello suites are indefensible. If it said 'Quickstep' or 'Samba' at the top of the page it
would be assumed that the words were there to guide you. If is older music and says 'Minuet@
Like · · 1 · 12 December 2015 at 20:56
John B Dick '<
John B Dick 'Minuet', you can do anything you like if you want to be different and then claim it wasn't
meant for actual dancing. Great technique but rubbish logic.
Like · · 3 · 12 December 2015 at 21:00
Andrew Lawrence-King Especially in a cold draughty church, certain parts start to feel quite inadequate....
Job Ter Haar Certain instruments too. Try playing a lirone in an unheated church in winter...
Shaun Ng John B Dick I am not sure if I would go as far as to say 'slow 'cello suites are indefensible.' I
don't know of any particular evidence that deals with Bach's cello suites, but there is evidence of tempo
changes in dances in the earlier lute and theorbo tradition, which was probably the most prevalent solo
instrument idiom. Off the top of my head, I remember seeing the same dance with different titles, e.g.
sarabande instead of canary, suggesting a tempo change. A similar thing happens with the dances from
Lully/Marais operas that are transcribed by De Visée for the theorbo: very difficult (think continuous
double stops) and unmusical to pull off at the 'original' speed. If anything, I think it shows that there is
some flexibility when it comes to performing solo music of the mid to late 17th century. And are we to
dance to these solo lute pieces? Well, I think the Burwell Lute Tutor says something along the lines of no,
but I will need to check on that.
John B Dick There is obviously scope for different perceptions of a practical tempo. Difficulty, micro
athletic skill, regional differences, the age and fitness of dancers, among them but there are limits. There
comes a point where tempo is increased that even a good player with a modern 'conquering Everest'
approach to difficulties is defeated or can only get through the piece sounding scrappy. This doesn't
mean the tempo is wrong, it might be that the instrument is wrong. With an overly slow over- respectful
tempo in a Bach sarabande, a dance is still a dance and is about movement. . If a piece says at the top of
the page 'Samba' that word is put there to help you get it right. 'Saraband' is a dance. 'Ti Chi' is not.
Andrew Hallock When we finally get it right, we'll just have to re-record everything... because that's what they
would have done.
Like · · 2 · 12 December 2015 at 18:47
John B Dick It is commonplace among those for whom the bottle is always half empty to bemoan the impossibility
of replicating the religious sentiments of those who first heard religious musical works.
John B Dick In circumstances of oppressive control by religious authority, a performer of music who is an
unbeliever has at least something to occupy the mind if attendance and conformity in religious observance is
obligatory, anyway and failure can be life threatening. Observing the speed and dramatic decay of conformity and
belief in the former Communist creed, and the power of the LDOS in the West Highlands gives pointers to the
sincerity of belief among the observant. No assumptions should be made one way or the other about the beliefs
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and spirituality of historical figures or populations. Will any church musician on this thread admit to being a
complete unbeliever in christian myth?
Kate Bennett Wadsworth Pencils! Even in early music ensembles, we spend most of our rehearsal time marking
our intended performance into the part, which locks us into a relentlessly modern way of reading musical text.
Like · · 5 · 12 December 2015 at 23:50
Job Ter Haar If it's good enough for Piatti, it's good enough for me!
Job Ter Haar (I mean pencils)
Kate Bennett Wadsworth Cool!! Is that from your Bergamo trip?
Job Ter Haar Yes! There are a few more markings in the part. Most of his parts were perfectly clean BTW,
so maybe he just put markings in these modern pieces that you have to practice really hard and then only
get to perform once or twice smile emoticon
Like · · 2 · 13 December 2015 at 00:15
Kate Bennett Wadsworth I think you could argue in either direction for pencils in 19C performance
practice. Ferdinand David's markings for the Brandenburg concertos look exactly like a modern baroque
orchestra's markings, but since they're all in his hand, they don't point to a rehearsal process like ours.
George Kennaway Re the David MS markings in Brandenburg 4, I think they're about control. And the
tempo modification in the 3rd movement is really pretty awful...
Job Ter Haar Now I am getting curious... I love awful tempo modifications, didn't join Musica ad Rhenum
for nothing!
Like · · 1 · 13 December 2015 at 10:13
Job Ter Haar Speaking about tempo modifications: I found markings like these in the autograph score of
the Molique cello concerto, also in Piatti's library. The markings are in 3 different colours. I wonder who
made them - Costa? Are there samples of his handwriting somewhere?
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Like · · 1 · 13 December 2015 at 10:20
John B Dick Dr William Whittaker, the Principal of what is now the Conservatoire in Glasgow, and was
from 1929 The Scottish National Academy of Music, over a period of years in the 1930’s personally
marked all the parts for all the Bach cantatas and directed performances. The parts had been trashed by
the 1970’s scandalising those who had played from them. He also arranged the St Matthew for four
soloists, four part choir and organ so that it was accessible to the dozens of church choirs in the city many
of which had a paid quartet till the 1970's. I may have been the last to have sung from Dr Whittaker's
edition in that way in 1973.
John B Dick There were at that time two conventions rigidly insisted on by singers and which church
organists were forced to observe, with the agreement of the Presbytery of Glasgow and the Catholic
Diocese. Church choir rehearsal night was Thursday, and larger choirs did not have rehearsals or
performances that day. Concert performance of masses were sung in church Latin. The precursor if RSNO
Chorus was the 1843 Glasgow Choral Union. As the name implies it was the joining together of other
choirs. In the 1950's the Secretary would announce at the interval that, e.g. four basses and as many
tenors as possible were wanted for Gerontius in Kilmarnock a week on Friday and there would be one
rehearsal. Nobody asked if you had sung the work before. That was the system, and I have seen a
conductor who did not know the conventions shouted down and give way.
John B Dick That system produced a large choir of experienced, highly literate amateur singers. In 1908
the GCU won the prize for sight singing in a competition in Paris. Middle class ladies did not expect to join
the workforce and often were taught to sing or play one or more instruments. I was fortunate to
experience the last years of the system, and remember singing, with one rehearsal each, two Schubert
masses in different choirs and towns within a couple of weeks. At least I think they [were] different.
John B Dick Wrong notes. Modern players only play the ones in the score. Baroque players made up their own
instead.
Mike Bayliss They aren't wrong notes, they're ornaments!
Jeremy Montagu those bloody trumpets with holes in them because players won't learn to bend; the other is the
lack of obviously intended inegalite.
Like · · 3 · 13 December 2015 at 18:06
John B Dick On the wind, you get an inegalite of loudness and tone quality whether you want it or not, so
perhaps inegality of length needs to be greater on modern instruments. I'd like to know more about the
capabilities of regional Baroque bows, and maybe there is something to be learned from Strathspey
bowing.
Oliver Webber The trumpet issue can't be laid 100% at the feet of the players: many conductors and
recording engineers won't tolerate anything other than 100% consistency and perfection. The almost-lost
art of holeless trumpet playing is tough to resurrect, but the few brave souls who are doing it have had to
fight all sorts of resistance along the way.
Like · · 1 · 13 December 2015 at 22:34
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Oliver Webber A lot of the issues relating to instruments are addressed increasingly often: here's
something that took place earlier this year in Basel, for example http://www.margreet.ch/Workshops_Project.html
Workshops Project
5th June 2015 a big ensemble, formed in these workshops, played a concert for the 25th…
margreet.ch
Bodie Pfost A lot of people have mentioned singers. As a developing singer, what should I focus on? Any essential
reading?
Like · · 1 · 13 December 2015 at 18:49
George Kennaway Depends on the repertoire you're aiming at...
Klaus Miehling There are not so much treatises especially for singers; it is best to read them all. wink
emoticon But it is as important to listen to good singers and instrumentalists that sing and play with just
intonation and few vibrato and in a convincing way that communicates the affect of the music.
Like · · 2 · 13 December 2015 at 18:59
Bodie Pfost I enjoy 16th/17th century Italian and German music. Also, I am a bass. Thinking about
applying to the AVES program in Basel.
George Kennaway Sarah Potter?
George Kennaway This is turning out even more interesting than I thought. Once my Elgar concerto is out of the
way tomorrow, I'll see about trying to make an interim summary. My Elgar, BTW, will be strongly influenced by
my study of the recordings by Squire and Harrison, but will in the end be largely, er, me. FWIW. (St Paul's Hall,
Huddersfield University, 730, tomorrow 14th).
Like · · 3 · 13 December 2015 at 18:58
Mike Bayliss So you'll be incorporating a lot of portamento in your playing?
George Kennaway Not a problem for me....
Mike Bayliss You might be interested in this extract from a 2008 article by John Rockwell, formerly of the
New York Times: "When I was first writing about, and championing, Roger Norrington for the Times in the
1980's, I had long discussions with him about both vibrato and portamento. (He was and remains a most
engaging, clever man.) In my biased view, his antipathy to portamento came down to a simple matter of
taste. In defiance of the recordings [conducted by Elgar], he just didn't like portamento, and for the same
reason that most modernists disliked it: he thought it sounded corny.
Maybe he's right; he certainly is right in advocating his own preferences. But his resistance to portamento
proves Taruskin's point - all the research in the world crumbles before taste, and taste reflects the era in
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which it is formed. Norrington is a terrific conductor, but (and?) he's a modernist, or at least a modernday musician. He can accept, even impose, vibrato, but for him portamento goes too far."
George Kennaway This connects with another point made earlier on this thread, which I'll come back to.
John B Dick I heard more portamento from the 21 year old Jaqueline Du Pre in the Elgar Concerto than I
have heard live or on record from anyone since. (musical saw performances excepted) The other
remarkable feature of the concert was that 200 free tickets were put in my hand the previous week and I
was challenged to give away as many as possible. More were available if required. The orchestra got two
tickets in their pay packets. I failed badly, but that's not a HIP story. As I remember, it was the season's
opening concert year the year St Andrew's hall (2,100) burned down and the temporary concert hall was
a redundant cinema with a third of the capacity.
John B Dick Mike Bayliss Quotes 'Corny' as an evaluation. There is a social class aspect here. The class
assumptions of audiences and musicians of the generation before RN (b 1935) need to be taken into
account. I find in old age that there are only four advantages of getting old, and one of them is that you
can laugh at the daft things your 'elders and betters' told you when you were young. Here's one. 1 The C
clarinet is a useless instrument, not worth having or playing. 2 Beethoven used it but he would have used
the Bb if he could have done. 3 The tone is rubbish 4 It plays out of tune. ------ And so it does in hotel
dance bands, silent cinemas wedding bands etc. with inferior players and a Bb clarinet mouthpiece and
reed, playing music written for the voice or violin on a high pitch instrument with a piece of string
hanging out the bell. The instrument I most enjoy playing is my ten-keyed boxwood C.
Mike Bayliss This is the old scenario of "well, I am sure Chopin would have preferred the Hammond organ
to the piano if he had ever heard one." What John B Dick says about the C clarinet goes equally well for
an instrument I know more about, the ophicleide, with 90% of what is written about it being complete
poppycock. There seems to be a universal tendency for self-appointed 'experts', who do not play the
instruments in question (and may never have heard them?), to make opinionated ex-cathedra
statements that are frequently plain wrong.
Like · · 14 December 2015 at 19:01 · Edited
Gill Page It is a great discussion. I'm mainly concerned with medieval repertoire so not everything applies directly
but I'm coming away with so many interesting ideas - cheers all.
Christopher Suckling The recurrent mention of singing is a fine example of a need to re-evaluate historical sources
in the light of intuitions gained through performance. Is it, for example, physiologically possible to sing in a
substantial eighteenth century Italian opera house without the voice developing a certain tremolo? If not, as
some would argue, when we read historical sources discussing vocal 'vibrato', what was the understood context
for that word and how can it relate to our current practices? (P.S. 'I don't know' is my answer to that example,
but the potential for understanding excites me!)
Like · · 2 · 13 December 2015 at 23:05
Christopher Suckling This article https://medium.com/.../the-limits-of-literalism... has been doing the rounds in a
few of the other performance practice groups. It requires a more substantial response than a late night Facebook
post, but I find it interesting as it is, I suspect, indicative of performing thought amongst the most recent
generation of practitioners, and it touches on the challenges of reconciling ever increasing knowledge with
decreasing professional resources.
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The limits of literalism — Seconda Prattica
Whatever is happening to HIP — Part I
medium.com|By Nuno Atalaia Rodrigues
Like · · 5 · 13 December 2015 at 23:08
Andrew Lawrence-King My reply is here: http://andrewlawrenceking.com/.../practise-what-you.../
Practise what you Preach: connecting Research, Rehearsal & Performance
andrewlawrenceking.com
Andrew Lawrence-King But I think the Elephant in the Room that we need to discuss is Conductors. Why do we
have "early music conductors" for music that, historically, was not conducted?
Like · · 10 · 10 January at 04:39
Ján Janovčík The cynical answer would be - because "we" can get away with it...
Niels Berentsen Very true. But let's not fall into the trap of considering these historical performances unlead or egalitarian in nature.
Oliver Webber It's a good question. They are often people who have formed groups a long time ago when
the role wasn't questioned, and who have had the musical (and business) vision to start the group, get
funding, create interesting projects etc. I think it's understandable that it would be hard for someone like
that to then step away from the podium, so to speak.
Niels Berentsen The conductor as we know him has an ancestry that goes back via the 19th century
choirmaster to the maestro di capella or cantor in earlier time. I'm just playing devil’s advocate here, but
can we really assume that everything a conductor does originated in the era of baton conducting?
Like · · 1 · 10 January at 10:13 · Edited
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George Kennaway Here, Peter Holman's work is clearly relevant.
George Kennaway http://m.em.oxfordjournals.org/content/41/1/55.extract
Early Music
Leafing through issues of Early Music for the last 40 years one can find discussions of virtually every
aspect of the performance of old music, from the large—the size and composition of choirs and
orchestras—to the small—such things as rhythmic alteration, articulation and ornamentation. However,
o…
m.em.oxfordjournals.org
Sheila Guymer In an inverse way (i.e. researching interpretative decision-making in conductorless period
orchestras) is the sort of thing violinist Margaret Faultless is working on at Cambridge. I'm tempted to
make a shameless plug for a conference I'm organising, but perhaps that's against the rules of this FB
group. Let's just say that Maggie's making a keynote presentation (with orchestra) re. this in April at
Emmanuel College, Cambridge... message me if you'd like to know more!
Like · · 10 January at 11:05 · Edited
George Kennaway This sort of plug is absolutely fine!
Sheila Guymer Ah! well, in that case, I'll attach a link (the timetable for keynote events is sorted and will
be added soon): https://www.facebook.com/events/647358332072144/
25
APR
Interested
Performing Knowledge Conference
25 April–26 April · Cambridge
Christopher, Job and George are interested
Bob Mitchell I don't mind a director being "there" in performances, but I very much mind if they imprint
something personal on a performance. Example: the John Eliot Gardiner recording of Buxtehude Membra...there
are big crescendos at passages in the text which somebody there deems to be important. I would sack a music
director for that...it causes a sense of hiatus, makes people 'jump', is a lapse of taste etc.
Christopher Price Pontifex The John Eliot Gardiner problem is not his presence directing but how he does
so and his somewhat equivocal approach to historically informed performance practice.
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Oliver Webber Why shouldn't a musician imprint something personal on a performance though? Wouldn't it be
strange not to do so? Of course, those "imprints" are then open to criticism as is every other aspect of any
performance, but I don't think a completely impersonal performance is a reasonable or even desirable goal.
Christopher Price Pontifex The elephant in the room is actually the continuing use of modern operatic singers
with a wholly post 19th century aesthetic outlook in supposedly HIP performances of 18th and earlier centuries
(operatic or just secular vocal) music and the persistent..contradictory convictions among many early music
practitioners that we cannot even approach knowing how they sounded in those periods but that they definitely
did not sound like modern early music singers such as Emma Kirkby, Maria Cristina Kiehr, Suzie Leblanc, Susanne
Rydén, Nigel Rogers, Paul Eliott, Harry van der Kamp (to name only a few veterans).
Christopher Price Pontifex as for conductors, one can think of Lassus, Schutz, Bach, etc ... Surely all of them
directed the performances of the forces under their control, even if they did not do so like a modern conductor.
David Hansell Surely early opera and elaborate sacred music was conducted, if not necessarily in the modern
sense. And as for what modern conductors should do, it depends on whether you want a 'reading' or an
'interpretation'. And on exactly what you think those two options are.
John B Dick I once organised/managed a performance of Schutz Seven Last Words with one rehearsal for 13 one
to a part out of practice amateurs. You could not say I conducted it for all the performers were behind me except
an organist who had her back to me. A quartet, cello and organ were at the West end of the church, with soloists,
strings, bass viol and organ at the other. The best of the out-of-practice string players was singing.
There was no question of having a non-singing, non-playing conductor. We were one short as it was, and I had to
leave off playing to sing about two bars.
Just before we started, the East end organist asked "How are we going to do this?" I was playing Bass Viol beside
her and reading off her copy because of restricted space as much as HIP. “Just start, and I’ll follow you”, I said.
So she did. Her first instrument was the Flute. Visibly and audibly, she took a breath on the first beat, and I could
have come in with her on the second bar eyes shut. She ‘conducted’ the whole piece without being aware of it.
Most or all of the 25 starts had a rest on 1, continuo on 2 and the rest of the singers and players came in on 3.
Compare that with an off-stage chorus in Boris with a knighted conductor in the pit, and TWO others relaying the
beat to a cramped male voice chorus backstage. A mess.
Or, same conductor, St Matthew. Unsteady beat from the beginning. Two female soloists with upcoming chorus
interjection. No33? The chorus master in the gallery said he had a sense that something was going to happen.
What happened was that the orchestra played piano instead of forte and out of a chorus 100+ only one Bass
dared to sing one note.
Berlioz. The most exciting performance I ever took part in. Three bars, basses only with a single note/word in
each bar the first two on the same note. You only need a ‘Four’ and/or a ‘One’ at the end of the first bar. Stirring
the porridge doesn’t help at all. There should have been two bass parts, but there were four, soon joined by two
First Tenor parts.
I had two decisions. to make: to sing or not, and which part to follow. If singing, I had to come in loud, (fake-)
confident, and early. Fortunately I guessed right but maybe by 51% chance. The confusion sorted itself out in
three or four bars. A soprano walked out at the interval and vowed never again to sing for that conductor again.
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John B Dick A conductor is needed when the ensemble is large enough for the difference between the speed of
light (instantaneous in practice) and the speed of sound a slow 340m/sec to make a difference to co-ordination.
Richard Bethell This was the first "Vibrato Wars" post. I have given it the reference V1. If you want to comment
further on posts in this thread, would you mind commenting on my new Thread V14?
Like · · 9 February at 20:38
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V2. Robert Berger, launched on 19 Dec 2015
Robert Berger
19 December 2015
It strikes me as very strange that so many productions in recent years of operas from the Baroque and classical
periods using period instruments have been done with sets and costumes and stagings set in the present day or
eras long after the actual stories of the operas .
For example, a while ago I saw a DVD of Handel's Giulio Cesare from Glyndebourne set in the 19th century , with
British troops wearing 19th century costumes, making the production look more like Gilbert and Sullivan than
Ptolemaic Egypt !
I have seen other productions like this on DVD . You would think with all the scrupulous attention to use of
instruments and recreation of period style
in the orchestra and among the singers , the directors and designers would try to recreate the sets and costumes
of the past, which of course, did not attempt to recreate ancient Greece or Rome, or the time of the Crusades
exactly .
The Drottningholm festival in Sweden uses a carefully preserved 18th century opera house and uses the
technology of past centuries , and I have seen a DVD of Rameau's Zoroastre from here which I enjoyed very
much.
I'm not opposed to updated productions of operas if they do not reduce the opera to ridiculous arbitrary
gimmicks as has been the case with Wagner and other composers . The Met's recent Rigoletto set in Las Vegas
was not something I found objectionable because it worked, for example .
But updating Baroque operas seems just plain weird to me .
Mike Bayliss, Helen France, John Moraitis and 7 others like this.
Comments
François Ferland I agree in principle, though if I'm not mistaken it was not uncommon for baroque opera, even
with a mythological or classical plot, to be set in the 17th or 18th century, at the time of the production.
Like · · 3 · 19 December 2015 at 06:02
Nicholas Clapton I have performed in "period dress" productions of Handel and Purcell, and, of course, they work
beautifully, IF, and ONLY if, the whole cast can enter properly into the gestural language used at the time as well.
The extra stylisation only helps the whole production, I believe, However, we are up against the all-powerful
directors' bandwagon. because the received wisdom of the opera world is that they are the really important
people in any opera production, and, oddly, this pertains even with HIP in the pit. .
Like · · 9 · 19 December 2015 at 07:37
Robert Berger But do we actually know what kind of gestures the singers used in the past ? WE have
some idea, but by modern standards those gestures would no doubt look weirdly stylized to modern
audiences and extremely stilted .
Nicholas Clapton Many people have done a lot of work in this area, and there is a lot of knowledge
around now. I have only been a practitioner, but it worked for me. I quite agree that some of it might
seem strange, but, in abstract at least, no more so than the "accepted" gestural language of classical (i.e.
19th-century) ballet.
Dominic Wan I thought it was a lack of budget that makes them use simpler costumes.
Actually, Nicholas, could you also comment on the gestural language in 'Le Roi Danse', please? I thought it looked
quite convincing - was it authentic?
Frauke Jurgensen I thought there wasn't enough dancing in it.
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Dominic Wan Just like everyone thinks there could have been more music in 'Tous le matins du monde.'
wink emoticon
Nicholas Clapton Insofar as I can say, definitely yes, though I am no expert - I love that film! As to budget, if we
got rid of directors completely, that would save a lot of money wink emoticon It is the overall complexity of
modern productions that costs so much ...
Like · · 4 · 19 December 2015 at 08:03
Dominic Wan Don't let them catch you saying that wink emoticon
John La Bouchardiere The cost of doing period productions is certainly far, far higher than doing moderndress shows (which can even be sourced entirely from stock). However, this expense would not
necessarily be prohibitive if those steering the industry made a priority of HIP on stage. That they don't is
not purely due to directors themselves and is significantly driven by the power of the dramaturg, which
dictates against the very nature of a period approach -- preferring a Brechtian ideal that is entirely foreign
to baroque opera but which has become central to most theatre making since WW2 (especially in
Germany).
In fairness, the passion for reviving music (especially operas) from the past is a relatively recent
phenomenon. It is also driven more by a love of musical style than of 17th or 18th century philosophy
and aesthetics. As such, I don't think it's such an anomaly to see modern thinking on stage and period
thinking in the pit (though this does put the singers in a difficult position).
As for the cost of directors, that only applies to the celebrated few. Many earn less than the singers they
direct, especially over a long run of performances.
Dominic Wan John La Bouchardiere Makes sense, the way you've explained it. Thank you.
Richard Bratby Are these operas solely historical artefacts, or are they living works of art? If the latter, they
should be able to take the full range of re-interpretation and re-invention that any great drama, of any period,
can (and regularly does) take. As long as they're performed expressively and passionately, and with complete
engagement with the spirit of the work. Longborough's 1980s-set Serse this summer was stunningly effective;
equally, I've seen Handel done at Drottningholm where the performances were less interesting than the scenery.
It all depends on the spirit in which the whole drama (of which the music is only one component) is approached.
It's not necessary to perform Shakespeare in doublet and hose (which is not to say that it can't be done superbly).
Same goes for Handel, Purcell, Rameau... artists too great to be bound by any one approach.
Christopher Price Pontifex The problem is that, because no one has yet attempted to do so with close
fidelity, none of us is given the chance to witness an attempt at recreating the whole 17th or 18th
century operatic experience that would enable us to judge the veracity of what you are saying (which I
think is a bit misconceived, I have to say with the greatest respect). Why is scrupulous historical fidelity (I
don't mean seeking to recreate an actual historical performance but seeking to recreate the sort of
performance a contemporary audience would have witnessed of a baroque opera) necessarily inimical to
an artistically successful performance?
Richard Bratby It isn't, and I'd never say that. The proposition under discussion is that contemporary-style
productions *are* inimical, which is self-evidently nonsense on stilts.
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Like · · 2 · 19 December 2015 at 11:25
Esha Neogy I was just about to say that Shakespeare certainly gets this treatment.
Like · · 1 · 19 December 2015 at 09:20
Geoff Thomason I think we do it because, however HIP our approach to the music, we know that our
expectations of a Baroque opera in terms of dramatic viability are different from those of contemporary
audiences. Consequently we impose our own dramatic aesthetic on these works. As I've said elsewhere, this is an
exercise in making Baroque opera "relevant" to modern audiences comparable to our predecessors orchestrating
Baroque music for the same reason. It raises the fundamental question of how far can we go in HIP, or indeed
how far are we prepared to go, before we admit to compromise.
A counter-argument, though, is perhaps implicit in the genre. Making Julius Caesar a 19th century figure is no less
anachronistic than having him sing 18th century Italianate music. A vast number of operas are set in their
composer's past. Those who object to a modern dress Caesar are usually happy that a 16th century French jester
sings 19th century Italian music or that Maria Stuarda contains no 16th century Scottish folksongs. The problems
arise when we try to recreate a historically informed performance of a historical drama as filtered through the
mindset of another historical period while trying to appease our own dramatic aesthetic.
Klaus Miehling Robert, I know the Drottningholm Zoroastre production. There was nothing historical but the
costumes. Original instructions from the libretto were ignored. Especially the "dancing" was a modern rubbish.
Christopher Price Pontifex These baroque opera productions pay attention only to period instruments and
historically informed instrumental performance, and not to proper singing style. They use mostly modern style
(i.e. the style developed in the 20th century from the 19th century style created after the sharp break with the
pre-19th century musical aesthetic). So why is it surprising they do not use historically informed costumes, sets
and dramaturgy? It would be nice to see and hear at least one baroque opera scrupulously attempting to
recreate the whole effect of the period in my lifetime, but I doubt this will ever happen.
Unlike · · 2 · 19 December 2015 at 11:15 · Edited
Klaus Miehling Well, look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKuUqsR4WOY
LE BOURGEOIS GENTILHOMME -…
youtube.com
Klaus Miehling Christopher Price Pontifex Here, this is a Czech production, though in a French theatre:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZsXH0O5a1Q
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Rinaldo (Georg Friedrich Händel) - Caen, 2010
youtube.com
Christopher Price Pontifex There is that, and it's great, but it's not an opera. I have heard of some Czech
baroque opera productions with period instruments, costumes and even lighting (limelight from the front
of the stage instead of overhead), with singers who match the period instruments in their singing style,
but never video recorded as far as I am aware. I witnessed two Benda melologues in Utrecht years ago
with French actors attempting to imitate mid to late eighteenth century acting style and after a few
minutes of the audience tittering at the unusual behaviour, it (along with me) was gripped by the drama.
It demonstrated to me how easily we can become acclimatized to historically informed stage acting
without the need for any modernizing (that is, people in bald wigs or totalitarian costumes) to make it all
relevant.
Christopher Price Pontifex Unfortunately that Czech production is marred by generally modern opera
house singing and acting. It is not a HIP production, just has some features.
Richard Bethell I agree. The singing is ugly, strident and historically uninformed. It ought to be sweet,
pure and clear, as all the best singers were described.
Like · · 1 · 22 December 2015 at 13:29
Robert Crowe I for one--though probably I'm not alone--would love to see nineteenth-century operas ALSO being
done with period orchestras, and period singing. Actually, I'd like to see more period singing, period.
In general, though, I don't think it's reasonable to be ok with rampant modernisation of slightly less-ancient
operas, like those of Verdi and Puccini (Verdi is FAR closer to Handel than he is to 2015), while at the same time
demanding a probably unachievable, historical perfection with operas of the eighteenth century. And Nicholas
Clapton (love the Moreschi book, by the way!) is right--period gesture falls flat on its face if not done really well.
Like · · 2 · 19 December 2015 at 13:08
Robert Berger This has been done, although we still can't be sure the singers will do it exactly as done in
the past, or even the orchestras. Several years ago, Simon Rattle and the Orchestra of the Age of
Enlightenment did Wagner's Das Rheingold on period instruments. I've heard part of it on YouTube, but it
barely sounds different from modern orchestras and I'm not even sure it's in any way "authentic”. There
have been recordings of Lucia di Lammermoor ,Norma and a few other 19th century operas on period
instruments , but again, I'm sceptical as to how "authentic " they are . I've heard these recordings
conducted by the late Sir Charles Mackerras (Lucia) and Giovanni Antonini (Norma). They'
Robert Berger Oops. Posted prematurely by accident. These recordings are pretty good, but in no way
better than the others . And would Rossini, Bellini and Donizetti have disapproved of the singing of Callas,
Sills, Scotto ,Pavarotti, Domingo and other great singers of our time ? Who knows ? Or the conducting of
Levine, Rudel, Muti, and other great conductors ? Who knows. We can't be sure . But even if they would
have, this does not mean these are not great singers and conductors . Gardiner has recorded a period
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instrument Falstaff and the Verdi Requiem, both very good performances, but to my ears no better than
those of other great conductors .
David Reid Alker I always thought that the idea of HIP was to have productions realised as authentically as
possible (Health and Safety notwithstanding). I agree that the way forward is to get as close to the original as
possible. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to sell tickets and our present masters of HIP give way to the
instincts of modern impresarios too often. It may be future technology, ironically, that leads the way to a truer
and authentic appreciation of how a performance took shape in the past.
Klaus Miehling Oh no, I am convinced they would sell more tickets! Look, how much likes this site has:
https://www.facebook.com/Against-Modern-Opera.../...
David Reid Alker Hey! Thanks for that Klaus.
Like · · 1 · 19 December 2015 at 14:39
Geoff Thomason So when do we revive the castrati?
Like · · 2 · 19 December 2015 at 15:09
David Reid Alker Soon...I hope!
Geoff Thomason That's you out of a job then!
Like · · 2 · 19 December 2015 at 15:12
David Reid Alker You're right, Geoff, for bringing this subject up as this is probably the most difficult area
of HIP to find a satisfactory solution to. Strangely, as a former countertenor, I am no longer convinced by
male altos or, indeed, sopranos, as a substitute. Of course, the French led the way in the baroque by not
having castrati in their operas. Perhaps, a reason I love French baroque opera.
Geoff Thomason It is something of an elephant in the room, raising the whole question of compromise
when our own preferences trump those of our predecessors. Should we also start going to Handel operas
to cheer our favourite singers but play cards in the boring bits?
Like · · 2 · 19 December 2015 at 15:37
David Reid Alker Absolutely! We have recordings of the least favoured, at the time, of Handel's operas should, therefore, we be excited by them or simply admire them in manuscript form? It's a can of worms!
Robert Berger Christopher, unlike instruments, the human voice has not changed . We don't know exactly what
the "proper" singing style of Baroque or classical period operas was , we only have clues, and we don't know what
kind of singing the composers would have liked or not .
Like · · 2 · 19 December 2015 at 15:31
Richard Bethell Unfortunately, the human voice HAS changed, for the worse, with the NATURAL voice
replaced by the MADE voice. Also, we certainly do know what vocal sound was expected in the 18th and
19th century, because Tosi, Mancini, Burney and Bacon made their expectations crystal clear. Then, the
best singers used no vibrato, no laryngeal development and no screeching or bellowing of high notes in
chest voice. .
Like · · 2 · 22 December 2015 at 10:14
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Richard Bethell I should have qualified my reference to the 19th century, because vibratoists began to
emerge from the 3rd decade and were dominant by 1880, as described in my paper for NEMA's 2009
Singing Conference at the University of York. This period also saw the emergence of tenore di forza and
dramatic sopranos, as well as the suppression of falsetto (or extended register) singing.
Like · · 1 · 22 December 2015 at 12:42
Klaus Miehling At least we know that vibrato was an ornament and not used thoroughly. (The only exception are
Italian and German sources from early baroque, but they obviously mean only a very slight fluctuation.)
Like · · 1 · 19 December 2015 at 15:46
Nicholas Clapton This is one of the most contentious questions in the whole of the discussion about
"early singing". Consciously vibrating a sound is very different from sound having a vibrant quality by the
very nature of the instrument producing it, namely the human body. I certainly don't want to dredge up
all the arguments about this, not least since FB could well crash as a result!
Like · · 2 · 20 December 2015 at 17:39
Richard Bethell The historical record supports Klaus's view. The issue is only contentious because
Nicholas, Frederick Neumann and others appear to be in denial on the issue. By all means, lets dredge up
the arguments and have the discussion. To start with, I challenge any reader to identify a front rank 18th
C singer with CONTINUOUS vibrato, apart from septuagenarian divas attempting a comeback . I've
checked 2,000+ sources without finding any. Singers did use ornamental vibrato, e.g. Giovanni Carestini
(1719), Giuseppe Ambrogetti (1807), and Angelica Catalani (1821, singing "And they were sore afraid").
Equally, descriptions of the voices of Samuel Harrison and Eliza Salmon make it clear that they sang in
straight voice, excluding any possibility of vibrato.
Like · · 1 · 22 December 2015 at 11:18
Nicholas Clapton Though I have not checked 2000 sources, I am fully aware of many such as you describe.
In my opinion, and that is all it is of course, straight tone applied like rancid butter on good bread, i.e.
endlessly and without any discretion, can be as vile as the uncontrollable wobbling of overblown
"modern" singing, which infects the performing world every bit as badly. Human beings are not organ
pipes, and the human body produces sound in a completely different way, physiologically speaking,
though any singer should be able to produce a dead straight sound if required. What also strikes me as
odd is that, when discussing singing, no distinction is made between "vibrato" (that is, caused to vibrate)
and "vibrante" (i.e. moving of its own accord, not "trained in" as many people, often not themselves
singers, seem to think is forcibly "done" when training a singer - it shouldn't be). I also see that the
Wikipedia article on Eliza Salmon, quoting it seems from a contemporary source, ends thus: "Mrs. Salmon
was no musician, although perfectly drilled into everything the orchestra then required. She gave no
character to anything she sang." Might she not therefore have been just a little dull? Give me a voice with
"shimmer", be it Kirkby or Nilsson, any day. Would you be very kind and let me have the source about
Carestini's vibrato, please?
Richard Bethell Happy to oblige: Treatise on Vocal Performance and Ornamentation, Johann Adam Hiller,
Ed & Trans Suzanne J Beicken, page 99. The relevant paragraph reads: “Now a word about vibrato
(Bebung), which arises when one does not permit a long sustained tone to sound firmly, but rather allows
it to fluctuate without changing the pitch. On string instruments it is done most easily by the rocking back
and forth of the finger which is placed on the string. It is more difficult for the singer if he simply wants to
bring it out with his throat; some make this easier for themselves by moving their lower jaw. Carestini did
this often and always with success.” There are differing views on
Richard Bethell I was going on to say something about Eliza Salmon, but unthinkingly pressed the Enter
key. While views on her musicianship vary, most commentators' reviews abound with superlatives on the
beauty of her voice. William Gardner (Music of Nature, P. 131) produced the following balanced notice:
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"Her tones were not only pure, but rich; and the manner in which she threw them out gave them a
liquidity that steeped the ear with delight. Her voice partook more of the powers of an instrument than
of a singer, especially when unshackled by words, to which, in fact, she paid but little attention. Her
object was tone, with execution, and in this respect she surpassed every other performer. Her voice had
all the colour of the rainbow, and her great faculty was that of adapting the colour of her tones to the
note she had to perform: naturally warm, her notes had a refulgent glow; yet she could cool them down
to the mild ray of a moonbeam. Depending upon these superior gifts, she was careless to a fault in her
mode of using her words; in this respect she was more to be censured than admired. Her power of
sustaining a note was remarkable; and the neat manner in which she recovered her breath was an
example to all singers. Her execution was delicate and felicitous; and her fancy unbounded. That
beautiful ornament, the shake, sparkled in her voice with all the lustre of a diamond; and though lavish in
the use of it, she never abated the first sensations of delight."
Nicholas Clapton Thank you. This is a very interesting passage, not least in that many commentators, then
and now, complain about "vibrato" being a change of pitch, whereas "Bebung", as described here, seems
to be two different things: moving as finger on a string, like "Bebung" on the clavichord, does change the
pitch of the note concerned, whereas a singer moving the lower jaw up and down would not change
pitch, but might look very odd to anyone not accustomed to it! I have never heard of any other singer at
that time doing such a thing. That's quite an encomium for Miss Salmon! How lovely that she could trill so
beautifully. I was so happy to hear Placido Domingo (in Verdi) singing a beautiful trill in a recording of "Un
Ballo in Maschera" the other day - what a pity it is that so few specialists in early repertoire can trill at all!
Mark Tatlow Many of the points of discussion raised in this thread are central to the interests of the research
project Performing Premodernity (see https://www.facebook.com/performingpremodernity), at least as far as
the second half of the 18th century is concerned. The most urgent question, at least for me, is finding a way of
allowing period acting to influence period music making, so that the dichotomy between stage and pit (i.e. stage
and musical directors) is removed. To achieve this requires not only directors who understand musical structures,
and conductors who understand acting, but also singing actors who have had the opportunity to study the
techniques of both historical singing and historical acting. I think it also requires a complete rethink of the
traditional opera rehearsal processes, a change of seating plan in the pit, and impresarios who are prepared to
give all this a chance.
Performing Premodernity
Arts/Humanities Website · 226 Likes
Like · · 5 · 20 December 2015 at 14:36
Richard Bethell Have referenced this thread as V2 in the Vibrato Wars series
Like · · 1 · 9 February at 20:54
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V3. Shaun Ng, launched on 24 Dec 2015
Shaun Ng
24 December 2015 · Perth, WA, Australia
I am wondering if it is a good idea to start a Facebook page for the purposes of reviewing performance practices
of HIP musicians in videos we see posted online. I don't mean for this to be some kind of 'early music police', but
as an educational tool. We all make compromises, but not all of us are aware or even know what they are.
You, Oliver Webber, Robert Berger and 4 others like this.
Comments
Esha Neogy A while back, there were complaints in another discussion group that people were posting too many
videos just to say "buy my CD" or "isn't this other person's recording cool?" The posters sometimes said they
wanted feedback, but I'm not sure whether they got much useful response or not. Maybe a group like you
describe would be the place for such posts. That is to say, people in that discussion group hadn't signed on to
critique videos, whereas in the setup you describe, they would have.
Like · · 1 · 24 December 2015 at 07:25
Shaun Ng Yes, I think what you describe is kind of along the line of what I am proposing.
Like · · 1 · 24 December 2015 at 23:41
Richard Bethell Do listen to Miriam Feuersinger's artistic account (largely vibrato free, plus delicate messa di
voce) of Christoph Graupner's Angst und Jammer and the opening chorale of Ach Gott und Herr. No compromises
here. Xenia Löffler's oboe playing is excellent. Unfortunately, Capricornus Consort Basel have for some strange
reason removed their CD from SPOTIFY. But you can find selections on YouTube, with the original music. Does
anyone know if this is Graupner's autograph?
Like · · 2 · 24 December 2015 at 11:32
Shaun Ng What you gave given here is an example of what I think you could post to such a page. We
could then discuss aspects of the performance.
Like · · 1 · 24 December 2015 at 23:43
Simone Laghi It's all about advertising and criticising. Instead of watching music on YouTube from your laptop,
with horrible audio, or from your headphones while commuting, please pick up an instrument and start
practicing. That's really historical.
Like · · 3 · 24 December 2015 at 12:49
Esha Neogy While I agree with most of what you've said, I think your last idea misses the point. The idea
is not to develop in isolation, but to learn about and discuss the styles of the community, both in history
and now.
Simone Laghi Discussion is always welcome! But too many people speak about music without being able
to play a scale, and are deeply influenced by the mainstream market.
Robert Berger We can never be sure about what long dead composers would have approved of when it comes to
performing their music. They often disliked the way other musicians of their time performed it .
Like · · 2 · 24 December 2015 at 18:11
Shaun Ng I think we are all aware of that. But we also know that some decisions are more plausible than
others.
Like · · 1 · 24 December 2015 at 23:54
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Simone Laghi "We" is related to who? Who is right and who is wrong? If you read reviews from famous
newspapers, they often contain mistakes and are influenced by labels. I got for myself a really negative
review (deserved or not) from a person who said that Boccherini is an obscure composer and is rightly
forgotten as his only famous work is the celebrated menuet: how can you reply to that? Still, this
reviewer's opinion was on a major music newspaper.
I try to do my best to be informed, and I humbly try to apply what I study to my own practice. To base our
historical knowledge on recordings is deeply wrong under many point of views, and everybody who ever
took part to a recording should know how misleading it is to judge a performance, which is a creative act,
from a recording, which is contrary to the idea of "musicking" (as C. Small wrote in his interesting book).
Christopher Price Pontifex I think you mean "related to whom" - wink emoticon
Like · 10 February 2015
Simone Laghi Yes, sorry. Thanks for the correction!
Like · 10 February 2015
Jon Baxendale No. It's not. The reason is that any discourse is open to all manner of people with, like me,
opinions, some of which are not critically based or historically aware.
It also will encourage some to share copyright videos, which is not legal.
Like · · 1 · 24 December 2015 at 20:05
Shaun Ng There is material out there that is legal, so I think a point should be made to not share
copyright videos and recordings. I don't think this would be a page simply for anyone to state their
opinion. We don't really learn anything for that.
Like · · 1 · 25 December 2015 at 00:02
Simone Laghi And how can you discriminate between connoisseurs and "the others"? smile emoticon
Shaun Ng Simone Laghi It would be a discussion on the results of performance-based historical research.
Like · · 1 · 25 December 2015 at 09:13
Jon Baxendale Well there are plenty of groups where this happens.
Eric Yeo Jon, as pointed out by Klaus Miehling in the Historical Performance in Early Music group recently,
the European Court of Justice said it's legal to link YouTube videos on Facebook.
https://www.wbs-law.de/.../pressemitteilungeugh-urteil.../
EuGH-Beschluss: Einbinden von YouTube-Videos ist legal!
wbs-law.de|By Christian Solmecke
Richard Bethell Have referenced this thread as V3 in the Vibrato Wars series
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V4. Debbie Winter, Launched 18 Jan 2016
George Kennaway shared Debbie Winter's post.
19 January at 08:56
There's been some discussion of singing here, so I thought I'd throw this in.
Debbie Winter to Opera Talk
18 January at 21:24
A wonderfully concise explanation of the science behind vibrato. You may find this of interest.
Dr Jenevora Williams on vibrato
This video is part of a study day on the Postgraduate Certificate specialising in vocal pedagogy.
http://voiceworkshop.co.uk/postgraduate-certificate-applied...
youtube.com
Shaun Ng, Eric Yeo and 4 others like this.
Comments
Robert Rawson Some interesting stuff here. On what basis is 5–8 cycles per second a 'normal rate'.
George Kennaway Is there something in Seashore about that? (That's from the 30s, of course...) Maybe it's a
question of perception: if I hear a non vib sound then it's non vib.
Mike Bayliss One questions here not the physiology but the concept of vibrato - as Robert says, who defines what
is 'normal'? Normal for whom? Certainly not for those singing/ playing music of the period I normally engage
with, from the 17th & 18th centuries, where vibrato is a coloration used sparingly for effect, not something that is
permanently switched on. If, apparently, singers are not capable of producing a straight note, how come so many
Baroque period specialists, both singers and wind instrumentalists, manage to achieve this, or near? (As George
mentions, very slight variations of pitch that are not perceived do not exist, for all practical purposes.) Is this
simply a post-hoc defence of the modern practice of universal operatic vibrato which so many of us detest?
Unlike · · 8 · 19 January at 16:08 · Edited
Ján Janovčík if you want to hear how vibrato can be used truly as an ornament, listen to excellent chanters of
Byzantine music. Here, the excellent Lykourgos Angelopoulos with Ensemble Organum:
https://youtu.be/MbVhH1_5D6c
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Gothic chant - École de Notre-Dame: Benedicta et…
youtube.com
Robert Berger Vibrato is not a bad thing in singing . Wobble is . Bad singing has always existed and always will .
We don't have a time machine yet, so we can't know exactly what the singing of the past sounded like before
recorded sound . Unlike instruments, the human voice has not changed .
Ján Janovčík But the aesthetics have, the idea of what is a beautiful voice has and given how flexible human voice
can be, that's more than enough...
Mike Bayliss "Vibrato is not a bad thing in singing" - a matter of personal opinion, of course, but it can certainly be
a problem in ensemble singing, particularly when the vibrato rate varies between the individual singers. One
person's vibrato is another's wobble, I suppose - it depends on what you want and what you are used to.
Unlike · · 3 · 19 January at 16:06
George Kennaway But isn't the whole universe vibrating? And doesn't that justify vocal vibrato? And isn't sound
just vibration anyway? [Drops expression of wide-eyed innocence}
Mike Bayliss There are so many physical, musical and philosophical issues bound up in those questions
that I shall refrain from writing the thesis....!
Klaus Miehling Yes, sound is vibration anyway. Therefore it’s no argument pro "vibrato" that the whole universe
is vibrating ...
Klaus Miehling What is this woman in the video saying? "Vibrato helps pitching"???? gasp emoticon.
George Kennaway I fear that even now, somewhere, someone is seriously using that hogwash as a justification.
I'm sure I heard someone come out with it in a masterclass...
George Kennaway My pitching is awful, I can’t throw for toffee.
George Kennaway Hogwash, of course. But I fear that someone somewhere is saying just that, seriously. I'm sure I
heard it in a masterclass...
Klaus Miehling Well, she probably means that it helps to hush up the fact that one cannot sing in tune.
Job Ter Haar Well, it's more like the broken watch which indicates the correct time at least twice per day.
If your vibrato is huge, you will hit the correct pitch at least once every vibrato cycle.
Mike Bayliss I am sure that is one element. Also, I have heard the hogwash (to use George's phrase) that "vibrato
helps projection" - well, if you can't project without it, you should not be singing/playing!
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Mike Bayliss There is also the more serious issue for HIP singers & players, attempting to distinguish between,
say, D# & Eb (thanks for the flute, Quantz!) that vibrato can override this and make the exercise totally pointless.
George Kennaway (Sorry, I posted twice because nothing happened the first time)
Martin Spaink Up to 25 cents both ways? How did she establish that rule? I feel that all and sundry are just
backing up their preferences and opinions. Personally, I have no use at all for vibrato - but then again I am not a
fan of opera, Lieder etc. Vibrato is not practiced at all in for instance classical Indian music, where it would clash
with all the other stuff a good and able vocalist is expected to do. The only 'vibrato' as such that is used, is a slow
and very precise oscillating micro-tonal movement. (Andolan) I have lots of experience in medieval chant, and
again, no place for vibrato either.
Nicholas Clapton Thank you all for rubbishing 250 years of operatic practice ... I am sick and tired of people who
are not singers in that tradition slagging off a vibrating voice. There is a world of difference between a voice that
vibrates (vibrante) and one that is vibrated (vibrato). The latter can certainly be an ornament (as in the example
of Orthodox chanting cited above, though I find it ironic that such a slow pitch waver is called vibrato when a
rather quicker rate in an "operatic" voice is denigrated for being wobbly. Thirty years of singing have taught me
that "straightening" the sound is a matter of holding, not releasing. As I am "only" a singer you will all no doubt
regard me as a complete idiot, but I have just about had enough of being told that white, blank whingeing in
"HIP" is the be all and end all of "authenticity".
Richard Bethell Nicholas. Do you like Miriam Feuersinger's singing of Christoph Graupner's singing
(posted separately, as I still haven't mastered the trick of inserting a YouTube video in the right place)?
Nicholas Clapton No.
Paul Norcross-King Personally, it's honesty and truth in the sound that I look for, and the naturalness of the
ensuing vibrato. I find both excessive vibrato from melodrama and unnatural thinning from slavishly following
perceived practise equally unappealing. Percentages are irrelevant; circumstances are. The truth will out.
Nicholas Clapton Thank you, Paul, I think that's bang on!
Martin Spaink I felt prompted to react as Dr. Williams was being very matter of fact about 'the voice' in general,
where no such thing exists. A voice, a singer and ears, habits etc are all formed within a tradition. So, other
traditions exist that obviously do not use vibrato as meant here. It's wording, very much, just as Roger Scruton's
book should not have been called 'Aesthetics of Music' but rather, Aesthetics of 20th century Western musical
practice as seen by RS. I tend to agree with Nicholas that 'vocí bianchi' in 19th century opera might not be fitting.
But we need more distinction between singing styles and approaches, just as violinists may have two
instruments, three bows, and awareness of various period performance practices. No such thing as 'the voice' everything is specific - or should be.
Luke Green Non vibrato singing is a constriction of the vocal folds. As a coach and one who works regularly with
voices (of which there are so many differences), tuning has less to do with vibrato and more to do with healthy
production of sound. Singers who experience vocal tension are more likely to produce voices with the wrong
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overtones that sound out of tune, and the human voice is not an instrument that can be twisted into tune with a
peg or a tuning hammer. Furthermore, many instruments have natural enharmonicity which results in a drop of
pitch in oscillation. Vibrato on stringed instruments reduces this by creating a pulsation in the tone much as a
sustained, healthy voice naturally has.
Klaus Miehling Well, I know a singer who would like to sing with vibrato, but can’t! smile emoticon And
she can sing for a long time without becoming problems with her voice.
Luke Green Human beings create natural wavering in their singing. Some do more than others. Your nonvibrator singer is still creating slight variance of pitch. Vibrato is a cultivation of this vibration.
Klaus Miehling You may detect minimal fluctuations in her voice if you use a technical device. What
counts is what you can hear. Also, fluctuations in dynamics and colour are all right.
Luke Green For all of people's going on about other non-european traditions, I would also point out the
microtonal embellishments and complex tunings/modal thought "raga" of the music of the Indian
subcontinent. This has its parallels in our late mediaeval Western music, in terms of modal thought and
complex tuning issues driven by theoretical thought. I do not think this applies necessarily to the birth of
bel canto and its pleasure in the voice and all it can do (although who said "The past is a foreign
country"?). This surely even rubs off on composers perhaps better known for their religious output, for
was not even Father Bach supposed to have said to his boys, "Shall we go to Dresden to hear the pretty
tunes?". Lyricism and vibrato go hand in hand.
Job Ter Haar If I understand you correctly, traditional Bulgarian singers must be very unhealthy...
Martin Spaink indeed, for singers who really want to get down to it in medieval chant, or other old modal
repertoires, it is good advice to practice non-european modal 'musiques savantes' with long-standing
viva-voce traditions. Not only because of the modal tuning, but even more specifically because of the
micro-tonal embellishments. How to approach a tone, how to leave it, and all the minute movements in
passing. I like to compare it to typo-script and calligraphy. Particularly in modal chant to a drone, things
get real tight, and a wavering voice is totally out of place here. I've done experiments with oscilloscopes
etc, once you're in the system, the voice can be laser straight and dead-fixed in pitch. Then you'd have to
work on the other stuff, such as resonance and colour.
Luke Green I would say that the western classical vocal tradition has a focus upon health and vocal
longevity in addition to beauty of tonal production, phrasing and clarity of diction in large spaces. No, bel
canto is no good for Leotin and Perotin. But the singers who sing it now have the benefit of the scientific
and long-passed-down knowledge of vocal safety/health derived from bel canto practice.
David Lee It's no coincidence that some of the stellar singers of the HIP movement, who were able to
make distinct 'straight' sounds on recording (but often underwhelmed in live performance), can now
barely sing. For better or for worse, a huge part of what we now think of as robust technique clearly has
its origins in the modern economy. Cheap flights and hotels have made for more tours and concerts; but
with the lack of investment force singers to undergo physical strain that severely affects the voice. Take it
from someone who does it for a living and doesn't live in a permanent state of cognitive dissonance:
having a technique that can deal with this is a huge part of having a career nowadays.
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Like 18th February
Job Ter Haar Some singers overexert themselves - I have seen that happen to HIP singers but it also
happens to vibrating singers.
Like · 18th February
Klaus Miehling Luke Green There is bel canto and the so-called bel canto. wink emoticon
Unlike · 18th February
Richard Bethell David Lee I can't let your first sentence go unchallenged, because I'm fairly sure that the
straight singing "stellar singers" of the HIP movement don't exist, except in your imagination. As I've said
before, there is no such HIP vocal "movement" and there are no such singers. Give me some names and
details of recordings and I am prepared to eat my words.
Like · · 19th February
David Lee I am afraid I'm not going to name any names, as many of them are colleagues and I fear it
would be inappropriate of me to do so. But this has given me for thought for a more extended piece, so
hold that thought...
David Lee And, much as I love your Graupner recording, the levels have been blatantly edited to
foreground the voice in a way that would be utterly impossible in the live event. Cf. anything by Vincent
Dumestre with singers on Alpha. Beautiful production, but not how they sound live!!
Richard Bethell I accept that recordings can be problematic in that respect. Certainly, the excellent
balance achieved by the Capricornus Consort Basel is noteworthy. I'm not qualified to pronounce on the
relative contribution of performers and recording engineers. In terms of the result, Xenia Loffler (the
excellent oboe) is rather stronger than Miriam Feuersinger's [voice]. Some sources indicate that they
should have been exactly equal. For example, Charles Burney noted of Francesca le Brun that she copied
the tone of her husband's oboe so exactly, "that when he accompanied her in divisions of thirds and
sixths, it was impossible to discover who was uppermost".
Three tracks of Miriam singing were included in my very short list of vibrato-light singers in my Spotify
playlist, Vibrato Free Classical Singing, before they were deleted by someone. I see that you, Miriam
Feuersinger, belong to this Facebook group. Perhaps you could comment, as you were there!
Martin Spaink still, Vibrato as it is practiced today is typically a Western thing, and not something that naturally
belongs to the voice per sé, looking at other refined musical cultures with very long pedigrees. Singers who get
into music before 1700 should at least be able to do without, as it is not appropriate to all music styles.
Luke Green Not when you consider the tremulants on organs or the vox humana with its gentle beating to
emulate the human voice.
Ján Janovčík But then, vox humana on a 17th century organs is a rather comically sounding reed register
(not too unlike regal) One wonders how could the organ builders get it so wrong. Or is it our taste and
aesthetics that changed?
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Klaus Miehling In the "Lexikon der Orgel" (Laaber-Verlag) I read about this register (my translation): "All
these forms were considered already in the 18th and 19th centuries as far away in sound from the human
voice."
Indeed, the name may be an ironic allusion to bad voices.
Ján Janovčík 18th and 19th - probably yes. But I seem to remember (I'd be glad if someone could locate
the reference) Praetorius praising a particular organ somewhere - and especially it's vox humana register,
for its human-voice-like quality!
Klaus Miehling Praetorius, following Italian sources of his time, is an exception. However, I think the
"tremulo" they mention means either just the ability to make good ornaments, or a very slight dynamic
vibrato. Nearly all later sources reject vibrato, if not as an ornament.
Luke Green What is a trill other than a wide vibrato?
Klaus Miehling Yes, but it is used as an ornament.
Martin Spaink 'What is a trill other than a wide vibrato?' Trills and vibrato are supposed to be fish in
different kettles? Btw a lot of singers are not capable of performing a proper trill, i.e. a quick alternating
between two distinct pitches, often accelerating. Lacking this capability, some singers do 'something or
other' instead.
Luke Green I refer you, Martin to Hotteterre's direction on false fingerings on woodwind instruments,
which is an approximation of how a good vocal trill is produced and sustained. Having had to teach it
often and demonstrate it to singers, it really is rather easy to do (and physically impossible to achieve as
one might do so on the harpsichord, although the physical sensation of rapid fluctuation is similar).
Massimiliano Di Mario Vox humana is actually a Chorus effect.. the wavering of the sound is in amplitude,
not pitch, am I correct?
Klaus Miehling There are two variants: a change of wind power (amplitude, but possibly also pitch,
because less power may result in a slightly lower tone), and two pipes tuned in slightly different pitches,
resulting in a beat.
Massimiliano Di Mario the beat being a change in amplitude, so only a slight vibrato. More like a chorus
of voices being slightly out of tune and beating
Klaus Miehling Yes, but to my ears it is a rather strong effect.
George Kennaway David Hurwitz published on the vox humana in Nineteenth-Century Music Review, 11 (2014),
pp 93-112. His abstract goes thus: "The issue of vibrato's presence in the nineteenth-century orchestral string
section has become controversial, with musicians often asked to accept the proposition that vibrato existed
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rarely, if at all. Fortunately an extensive, hitherto overlooked, body of primary source material exists that goes
straight to the heart of the matter, offering a definitive answer to the question of whether or not vibrato was an
intrinsic component of period orchestral string sonority. It comes from the organ literature and from the history
of the instrument's evolution over the course of the long nineteenth century. A group of artists and artisans,
working from approximately 1830 to 1930, documented the importance of vibrato to any attempt at reproducing,
or at least approximating, the authentic timbre of the orchestral string section. Organ builders and performers
noted vibrato's use both as an intrinsic constituent of string tone and as an actively applied expressive device.
They discussed it extensively in their literature, gave their instruments the capacity to simulate its effects, and
specifically notated its presence in their transcriptions of orchestral music. The information they have left behind
dispels the modern myth of ‘pure’, vibratoless orchestral string tone as a timbral norm, and provides a truer
sense of the era's prevailing aesthetic." Here's a link for those who can access it.
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract...
Vibrato, the Orchestral Organ and the ‘Prevailing Aesthetic’ in…
journals.cambridge.org
Job Ter Haar George, what do you think about this article? I read it some time ago and I loved it because
it provided me with a nice list of examples of notated vibrato in 19th century music, but I found his
arguments very weak. For instance, he basically dismisses Spohr as an insignificant boring figure. The guy
just loves vibrato...
Job Ter Haar One of his assumptions is that orchestra vibrato was common because there are examples
where it has been notated. That's like saying that col legno was the common style of bowing smile
emoticon
George Kennaway That's my opinion. His sources are interesting, but his arguments are weak. That
applies to his other work as well.
Job Ter Haar BTW what do we think about this example, taken from a sextet by Glinka for strings and
piano? Quite a lot of harmonics...
George Kennaway In fact, I'm extremely relaxed about vibrato, which is why I haven't commented here. I find the
tone of discussion, however, truly fascinating. Nicholas Clapton, I would never dismiss anything that a
professional like you would say!
Nicholas Clapton Thank you, George Kennaway, and likewise!
Martin Spaink Sound discrimination is what is called for. Happily, all HIP instrumentalists have gone through a
thorough resourcing, and singers are the last to catch on. 'Surely, the voice has not changed?' While there may be
periods in music history when vibrato became a brand-stamp of artistry, and a conditio sine qua non, obviously it
cannot be projected on 'the voice' in general, nor on musical styles of the renaissance or medieval periods. Can't
imagine an organum duplum or conductus à 2 from Notre Dame de Paris sung by operatic voices.
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Klaus Miehling At the university a professor played for us an ancient recording (1930s or so) of "Sederunt
principes" with big choir. grin emoticon
Nicholas Clapton ... that might depend on the opera smile emoticon
Robert Crowe There is a universe of differences in that loaded term "operatic voices." You will hear a driving
straight tone from the best Wagnerians, as well as a Cuzzoni-like warble, even bleat, in Monteverdi or Cavalli. The
bleat, in my experience, comes most often in those voices whose owners have attempted to eliminate vibrato
completely. At some point, the muscles surrounding the larynx simply tire of this unnatural constriction, and the
rapid, whinnying (eighth-tone flat) sound of the fatigued HIP singer is the result. In any case, why do so many HIP
people, when writing or talking about vibrato in singing, go to instrumental sources? Read what Tosi says about,
as he says quite a bit.
He certainly did not like it, specifically for messa di voce, or for final notes. BUT he admitted that the modern
singer (1723) preferred to "waver" (Galliard's word, but it seems to mean vibrato, in English, until well into the
1820s--see Richard Mackenzie Bacon, 1823) on the long notes, rather than swelling and diminishing them without
wavering. The context, and lack of comment about wavering otherwise appears to indicate that this was a
constant, not a temporary thing. Certainly Bernhard forbids it, but even then, only for the sopranos. He was a
bass, and for basses, it was just fine. wink emoticon
Straight tone for thee, but not for me.
Klaus Miehling Oh no, it's not so clear with Bernhard :
"Das Ardire ist ein Tremol, welches bey der letzten Note einer Clausul gemacht wird. Diese Ardire wird gar von
wenigen gebraucht, es sey denn von Bassisten, welchen es auch am besten anstehet, weil ihnen ohne daß das
Tremulum mehr alß andren vergönnet ist; und wird gezeichnet mit #."
He is speaking of an ornament! You might interpret "ohne daß" ("anyway") as a general tremolo, but this is
probably not correct, because Bernard writes before: „Das fermo oder Festhalten der Stimme, wird bey allen
Noten erfordert, ausgenommen, wo das trillo oder ardire gebraucht wird, ..." - "The fermo or holding of the voice
is necessary on every note, with exception of the use of trillo or ardire".
And Tosi writes, in the translation of Agricola:
„Der Unterweiser lasse auch seinen Untergebenen die Noten fest aushalten lernen, so, daß dabey die Stimme
nicht zittere und nicht hin und her wanke. … Denn widrigenfalls wird die Lust, welche die meisten Anfänger
haben, die Stimme zu bewegen, und die Mühe welche es kostet, mit derselben fest auszuhalten, verursachen,
daß auch dieser Schüler sich angewöhnet, nicht mehr die Stimme lange auf einem Tone erhalten zu können; und
er wird ohne Zweifel den Fehler annehmen, mit dem Tone immer hin und her zu flattern: nach Art derer, die mit
dem übelsten Geschmacke singen.”
In brief: The pupil must learn to hold the notes straight, and flatter [flutter] about is of meanest taste.
Robert Crowe (sorry about Bernhardt--I've not read him in years) but about Tosi--whom I prefer in Galliard, as
they were closer to the same age, could be inferred as having had similar period-bound taste, and actually knew
each other, or at the least, moved in the same circles. Agricola could claim none of these things. In any case, Tosi
was pretty clear that most singers in the 1720s were no longer following his rules, especially about the messa di
voce. As far as Agricola, you have synopsised "nicht zittere und nicht hin und her wanke" (not tremble or back
and forth..wander, I suppose) as straight tone--and I think this is reading far too much into a statement. If the
principal view is that vibrato is bad, then strictures against what reads to me, as a singer, as an uncontrolled
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wobble, can very easily and not entirely legitimately be turned into strictures against vibrato. I do not think that
this is what Agricola is saying. I think even Tosi, as memory serves, only requires a steady voice in the two, specific
places I have already mentioned.
In any case, to admonish a practice as being 'in the meanest taste' (your words, or Agricola's?) is to implicitly
acknowledge that the other, wobbly sound, was common practice, however much Agricola and possibly Tosi may
have despised it. There are likely a vast differences between the polemical pedagogue and the actual prevailing
taste, and I think we err greatly when we read treatises as if they were objective observations.
Richard Bethell No. Vibrato, in both pitch and dynamic varieties, disgusted Tosi in ALL contexts.
Foreman translated Tosi [P. 17] thus: "Let them [students] be taught to sustain the notes without letting
the voice waver or hesitate [titubi, o vacilli], and if the teaching begins with a note of two measures
length, the profit will be greater; otherwise the inclination which beginners have for moving the voice,
and the fatigue of steadying it, will accustom them to not being able to sustain, and they will indubitably
have the defect of fluttering, which is always in use by those who sing with the worst taste" . Later on the
same page, he comments, as a separate point, that "There are now very few singers who esteem it [a
beautiful messa di voce] as worthy of their taste, whether because they love instability in the voice, or
because they wish to remove themselves from the despised past. Later on [P.19] he says: "He who fears
is very unhappy in a face-to-face encounter: Oppressed by the difficulty of breathing, his voice always
trembles [Oppressa dalla difficoltà del respiro gli trema sempre la voce]." Finally [P.104] "He will not hear
without nausea the invented emetic style [l'inventato stile emetico] of him who sings like the waves of
the ocean, provoking the innocent notes with vulgar pushing of the voice; disgusting defect, and rude,
but having been brought from beyond the mountains [later interpreted by Galliard as France] it passes
for a modern rarity."
It is inconceivable that any of the singers Tosi approved of (Bordoni, Boschi, Buzzoleni, Cuzzoni, Lotti,
Siface] used vibrato, except as an ornament. Certainly, later on, a few authorities did allow a messa di
voce with selective vibrato.
Robert Crowe I never said Tosi liked vibrato. In fact, I said he didn't--but you have quoted something that
is specifically to do with long, held notes. He says very clearly, as you have reprinted, that "There are very
few singers who esteem it..etc" meaning that by 1723 singers WERE singing vibrato on long notes,
eschewing the messa di voce. This does not mean that short notes, runs, etc, were sung with straight
tone.
We need to read the entire texts, not just the conscious dictates, but the constant negation of what is
clearly one of the dominant ways of singing by the end of Tosi's life. In addition, one must know the
historical meanings of words, not just the modern.
Regarding Cuzzoni, Burney says that her "natural warble" (Vol 4, 307) enabled her to "execute divisions
with such facility as to conceal every appearance of difficulty." What does warble mean, historically
speaking?
From the Oxford, it is clear that encompassed within the greater meaning of warble, in addition to being
birdlike (few birds that are said to warble have clear, unwavering tones) is that it is a trembling sound.
"1754: The sky-lark warbles high his trembling thrilling ecstasy."
3. trans. a. To sing with quavering trills and runs, to utter melodiously, to carol. Also to warble forth,
warble out, warble over.
1576 Gascoigne Philomene (Arb.) 89 And many a note, she warbled wondrous wel. a 1593 Marlowe
Ovid's Elegies i. i. 33 Elegian Muse, that warblest amorous laies. 1634 Sir T. Herbert Trav. 207 The lookers
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on incessantly warble out soft trembling Musique. 1693 Dryden Juvenal vi. 98 Softly She Warbles over all
she hears. 1754 Gray Pleasure 13 The Sky-lark warbles high His trembling thrilling ecstacy. 1848
Thackeray Van. Fair xxv, Emmy..began to warble that stanza from the favourite song of ‘Wapping Old
Stairs’. 1854 Poultry Chron. II. 118/1 Again, we have that pretty songster..warbling forth its melodious
song, the Canary. 1868 L. M. Alcott Little Women xii, Ned, getting sentimental, warbled a serenade.
b. To express or celebrate in song or verse. Also with forth, out.
1591 Sylvester Du Bartas i. i. 18 O Father, grant I sweetly warble forth Vnto our seed the World's
renowned Birth. 1623 Milton Ps. cxxxvi. 89 Let us therefore warble forth His mighty Majesty and worth.
1634 Sir. T. Herbert Trav. 7 The Riuer Læthe so warbled out by Poets. 1725 Pope Odyss. i. 446 Warbling
the Grecian woes with harp and voice. 1750 Johnson Rambler No. 109 ⁋2 You..warble out your groans
with uncommon elegance.
Richard Bethell Thanks for the interesting quotes on warbling. However, Burney only used the term in
describing Cuzzoni's superb rapid passaggi. Elsewhere, he sternly excoriates tremolo whenever he
encounters it, and concludes in Rees: "TREMBLANT, in Music, the name of a very disagreeable stop in
large church-organs on the continent. Its name describes its effect. In general, a steady tone in a voice or
wind-instrument capable of sustaining a note, is the most essential requisite; but in the tremblant stop
there is a perpetual quivering, such as we sometimes hear in the streets by the vielle and barrel-organ."
I find that the term "warbling" is generally used facetiously. Typically, reviewers would write "the fair
cantatrice warbled her dulcet tones" instead of "she sang".
I believe that the historical record, when fully exposed, will support my view that straight singing was the
norm from about 1650 to 1825, certainly by Italian trained singers, supporting Greta Haenen's conclusion
in Das Vibrato in der Musik des Barock that "Nowhere is a noticeable continuous vibrato approved of. The
fact that from time to time warnings are made about it, of course, proves that such a thing existed, but it
was at least theoretically not tolerated, and I believe that the better performers tried to avoid it." [From
translation of summary chapter by Fred Gable, available from University of York papers on NEMA's 2009
singing conference]
Robert Crowe I think that we in the twenty-first century tend to conflate the modern vibrato, in all its
manifold forms, with tremolo, and that that is a too easy, too unsubtle and too sweeping conflation of
non-overlapping terms. A bad vibrato--a wobble in modern terminology--is generally frowned upon even
in the most didactic of modern operatic studios.
I'm confident that there never will be a definitive answer, because a definitive answer does not exist to
be found. "The baroque" is a modern invention for many periods of music, rapidly changing, with rapidly
changing tastes in vocal production that changed from town to town, year to year, even singer to singer,
if a singer was a particularly good exponent of a new "thing." That a handful of treatises exist, all written
from a reactionary, polemical viewpoint, only serves to confirm the very quick pace of stylistic change.
Remember, opera WAS fashion, until the beginning of the twentieth century.
I'm also quite sure, just as sure as I am that I'll neither be proven right nor wrong, that the vibrato as we
understand it went in and out of fashion throughout the last 400-500 years. I think it went out of fashion
with Pistocchi in the 1670s and 1680s, came back into fashion, slowly, with the introduction of the Stile
Gallante in the 1720s and 1730s, (much to the horror of old conservatives like Tosi) and went out of
fashion again in the 1830s and 1840s, as witnessed by Garcia's writing on it, only to return with a
vengeance after World War I.
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George Kennaway This is of course the classic problem with all sources that appear strongly to condemn this or
that practice - the inference is always possible that the rejected practice was in fact widespread. So are we to
please the critic (teacher, etc) or do what people appear to have actually done?
Robert Crowe I think we embrace a musicological form of Keats's negative capability: " being in uncertainties,
mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason." with the result being "the sense of
Beauty overcomes every other consideration, or rather obliterates all consideration." In other words, be aware
of, and versed in the answers that are there, but don't get so caught up in the search for and insistence upon
perfect, absolute answers, for a plenitude of viable options probably exists for any specific point of performance
practice. The final goal is, or should be, the music itself...is it a living art, or the attempted resurrection of a dead
one?
Klaus Miehling Years ago I collected quotes on vocal vibrato up to c.1950 (I had no internet yet, so today it might
be easy to find much more) and published an article in two issues of "Concerto". It may be useful to quote here
the summary I made at the end:
1. Die Mehrzahl der Quellen vor 1900 hält ein Dauervibrato welcher Art auch immer für unerwünscht.
2. Ein vibratoloser Ton wird erst ab ca. 1930 (direkt oder indirekt) als unschön oder unnatürlich bezeichnet.
3. Die wenigen Quellen vor 1900, die ein Dauervibrato billigen, beschreiben es als sehr schwach; es handelt sich
höchstwahrscheinlich um ein Lautstärken-, nicht um ein Tonhöhenvibrato.
4. Dieses Lautstärkenvibrato findet nur zwischen ca. 1590 und 1630 allgemeine Zustimmung, und zwar in Italien
und Deutschland.
5. Dieses Lautstärkenvibrato muß so schwach sein, daß ihm noch ein Verzierungsvibrato aufgesetzt werden kann.
6. Die bis ins 19. Jh. nachweisbare Bevorzugung reiner Intervalle im Zusammenklang (jenseits der
notwendigerweise temperierten Tasteninstrumente) führt ein Tonhöhenvibrato ad absurdum.
7. Im 19. Jh. ist eine Entwicklung vom punktuell und ornamental eingesetzten Vibrato zum Vibrato als
Ausdrucksmittel extremer Gefühle festzustellen.
8. Dieses Ausdrucksvibrato, das bei großer Lautstärke bereits ein Tonhöhenvibrato gewesen sein dürfte,
verselbständigt sich im frühen 20. Jh. Ab den 30er Jahren gilt ein permanentes Tonhöhenvibrato als normal.
8. Bekanntlich wurde die Gesangskunst stets als Vorbild für das Instrumentalspiel angesehen (bisweilen auch
umgekehrt). Die Diskrepanz zwischen Vokal- und Instrumentalstil, wie sie in sehr vielen Aufführungen und
Aufnahmen in „historischer Aufführungspraxis” - vor allem von Opern - zu hören ist, stellt einen unhistorischen
und stilistisch divergenten Kompromiß dar, vergleichbar der üblich gewordenen Verbindung von historischem
Instrumentarium und modernem Regietheater.
10. Einzelne Sänger mit häufigem oder gar dauerndem Tonhöhenvibrato hat es immer gegeben. Sie galten vor ca.
1920 als unqualifiziert und waren dem Spott der Kritik ausgesetzt.
Robert Berger Hogwash ? You mean Christopher Hogwash ? (No disrespect meant to the late conductor and
scholar ).
Ben Palmer In a lecture given in 1925, Saint-Saëns said: "Formerly the German female singers sang with their full
voice, without any vibration in the sound and without any reference to the situation; one would say they were
clarinets. Now, one must vibrate all the time. I heard the 'Meistersingers' Quintet sung in Paris. It was dreadful
and the composition incomprehensible. Not all singers, fortunately, have this defect, but it has taken possession
of violinists and 'cello players. It was not the way Franchomme, the 'cello player and collaborator of Chopin,
played, nor was it the way Sarasate, Sivori or Joachim played."
Job Ter Haar Interesting - Sarasate's recordings show a modest but almost continuous vibrato.
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Ben Palmer My opinion, for what's worth: many singers (including children and amateurs) can and do sing
beautifully without vibrato, without getting tired or straining their voices. Singers who develop a sound with
constant vibrato unsurprisingly find it difficult to switch it off, and do find it tiring when they try to sing straight.
And it is they who are the most militant about singing with pure tone being 'harmful' or 'unnatural'.
Nicholas Clapton Speaking personally, it's not difficult for me to "switch off", I would just rather not. If
someone finds "straight" singing natural, I would be the last person to complain, and, as has already been
pointed out, there are traditions where that is the norm.
Robert Crowe I also find it comparatively easy to switch off, and do it when I think the vocal line, or parts
of it, requires it--especially for words of particular pathos or astringency, or for melodic passages whose
tones serve more an harmonic function than a melodic one. What I really tire of is a didactic insistence
upon an universal, straight-tone sound that does not fit the majority of voices--and especially when it
comes from non-singers, or from singers whose voices do not (yet) happen to have an audible vibrato.
And, when it's really not clear that this straight tone is an historical constant.
Singers in the 1820s were praised for "bell like vibrations" or damned for "sourness of vibration”.
Catalani, in an early 1800s (I think 1802) performance of Messiah, specifically the recit: "And there were
shepherds," sang "and they were sore afraid" so softly that James [or, Richard Mackenzie?] Bacon writes,
in wonder, that "her voice even ceased wavering," implying that otherwise the wavering (or vibrato) was
constant. And she was the greatest singer of her age--her tastelessness, which was pretty considerable,
appertained almost exclusively to her horrendous ornaments. Rubini, the tenor, had a pronounced
vibrato which had, by the mid 1840s, fallen decisively out of fashion.
Saying some singers sing without vibrato easily is not really saying anything. Some singers can be found
who can do almost anything comparatively easily. The voice, like a fingerprint, is by its nature unique to
its owner--uniqueness is a vocal, constant. Imposition of universal constraints (and constraint is what it is
to a lot of very good singers) is polemicism.
Nicholas Clapton Robert Crowe, this is great!
Ben Palmer See my comment above about singers being the ones who have the problem with singing
straight. I find it terribly sad that most singers think of 'switching it off' as a special effect, rather than
starting with none and adding it as a decoration.
Robert Crowe I shall struggle on in the knowledge [of] your sorrow. I can't speak for the rest of
singerdom, however.
Nicholas Clapton So will I, and nor can I ...
Luke Green If you listen to the lady in the film, there are gradations of vibration, and even voices we
consider 'straight toned' have gentle fluctuations of pitch. Instrumentalists also produce a variety of
pitches depending on velocity, attack etc.
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Christopher Price Pontifex I'd like to hear that (switching off) from both of you! Haven't heard it yet,
though I do admit that my sample of either of your art is quite small thanks to those annoying continents
and seas separating Sydney and Europe and the lack of recordings.
Christopher Price Pontifex I don't mean that rudely, by the way (on re-reading I see it could be mis-read
that way) - It would be genuinely interesting to hear an extended passage sung by either of you without
vibrato, to make the comparison.
Nicholas Clapton You won't find one from me. I only ever did it on sufferance, and usually on instruction
from choir directors obsessed with blend. They NEVER bother to ask tenors and basses to sing "straight",
but are maniacal about male altos/counter-tenors sounding like "voci bianche" boys - ghastly ...
Robert Crowe As for me, you won't find an extended passage utterly without vibrato. I don't much like
that manner of singing, and find it inexpressive, inartistic and wilfully ignorant of words and color. I also
never hear it in any singer where I find it particularly effective. Even Emma Kirkby, the supposed model of
straight tone, uses a lot of (narrow) vibrato, as does Ellen Hargis. I think every note should change and
develop, if it's long enough so to do. There is a bit in my lute songs--quite a bit actually--of straight tone
singing, but that has not been recorded, for the most part.
Christopher Price Pontifex Nicholas, I think I know what you mean. The truth is that vibrato seems to be
more noticeable with higher voices, while tenors and basses can apply a lot more vibrato before it
becomes as noticeable. That said, I have been very disappointed with Westminster Cathedral's markedly
vibrant tenors and basses in recent years (on record, of course). But, surely the upper voices sounding
more like boys than adult women from the stage was the norm for renaissance and baroque choirs - even
in the case of their castrati and countertenors? There has to be some unanimity of style in a choir or else
it sounds like a woeful mess.
Christopher Price Pontifex I think we have a terminological question (perhaps even straw man) here "vibratoless" and "without vibrato" do not mean "absolutely devoid of fluctuations of pitch and volume".
What I complain about is the use of vibrato that, to me, is really a shake - which is what I heard on your
Carissimi disc, Robert.
Robert Crowe Christopher Price Pontifex : I think the biggest error in HIP is to assume a constant color or
sound--and that this error is shared by much of the modern operatic-training voice teachers, from the
opposite end of the opinion spectrum. Robert Toft wrote a great book on the manner of singing
expression in England at the end of the 18th century.. And I have never found anything where castrati
were said to sound (throughout their ranges) like boys.
Robert Crowe Well...the Carissimi recording was made under very adverse conditions, including street
noises that ruined all of the best takes on Sicut Stella and most of them in Domine Deus, and a terrible
cold where I had lost my voice completely the week before. This doesn't excuse notes that I'd like to have
back, but it is what is and I'll not apologize for the thing.
Christopher Price Pontifex Maybe some of my fellow HIPsters think that, but I was always led to believe
that one of the features sought after in the "olden days" before 1800 (only a rough date) was flexibility of
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tone, dynamics, degree of vibrato and other vocal tricks, not a uniform colour and sound. I think most
HIPsters think the same.
Christopher Price Pontifex Sorry to hear about that, Robert. It must be terrible to get all geared up to
incise one's art in stone and be undermined by illness and the environment. I have to say the music is
wonderful, though.
Christopher Price Pontifex I have never read anything where castrati were said to sound like female opera
singers either.
Robert Crowe Velluti (by Bacon) , Sassaroli (by AB Marx), Marchesi (by many) were all described as having
PARTS of their voices that sounded like women. Another common error is to assume that the voice was a
mono-register--this was a goal, but was rarely achieved, as Mancini explicitly stated in the 1770s.
Edg Siviter I come from a brass instrumental background. Perhaps unsurprisingly this same debate crops up from
time to time. But, whenever I am involved in one of those debates, or when I am passing on my years of
experience in a pedagogical role I always remember the advice given to me, time and time again, that vibrato is a
tool to be used sparingly and with care befitting the style of the music. Now, I do appreciate that singers,
especially soloists, can specialise in certain musical eras, or even certain composers that require particular
techniques, but would this be an appropriate comment in the choral discipline too?
Luke Green But Russian brass players use it regularly, well-nigh constantly. Listen to recordings of
Tchaikovsky from the 1950's and you might hear something that shocks you to your core!
Oliver Webber There has long been a division between western and Eastern Europe in brass playing: in
the west a pure sound has long been preferred while in the east vibrato became and remained
fashionable.
Job Ter Haar A Victorian View on Vibrato:
Ben Palmer Job, what is this from? I'd love to see the whole thing.
Job Ter Haar Here it is!
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Ben Palmer Amazing, thank you! Any chance you could post the rest of the vibrato section, if it's not too
long?
Job Ter Haar Does this work? https://jobterhaar.box.com/.../l9cnai04odhm2hi4ax3im74hj8...
Ben Palmer This is ASTONISHING! Thank you, I'll send it to Roger N. (Hope everyone commenting above
will read it too...)
Ben Palmer When was it published?
John Moraitis Thanks for sharing, dear Job!
Job Ter Haar Ben Palmer 1913 I think.
Job Ter Haar But what is also clear from this article is that absolute non-vibrato singing wasn't the ideal.
Some of the singers Johnstone mentioned did use some vibrato, like Jean de Reszke. It is not easy to hear
on this recording but he seems to have had a modest vibrato:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhEDZ84c9F8
Jean de Reszke - O Paradis! (Met, 1901)
youtube.com
Klaus Miehling Job Ter Haar 1913 is even post-Victorian, to be correct.
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Job Ter Haar Yes you are right, but the views presented are very Victorian: speaking about vibrato as if it
is some kind of disease.
Luke Green Yes there have always been people who take exception to it. There are some voices that do it less and
some more. Instrumentalists should use it in imitation of the voice, where possible. Non-vibrato being blanketapplied to all pre-20th century music is a mistake.
Job Ter Haar I have read hundreds of reviews from that time and if they write about vibrato it's usually in
a negative sense. Of course that also means that singers and instrumentalists were doing it, and probably
members of the audience were enjoying it - but it was frowned upon, a low class thing to do. Many
Victorians would probably disagree with you that non-vibrato blanket applied would be a mistake. BTW
should clarinettists also imitate the voice and use vibrato? A lot of clarinet players will disagree...
Christopher Price Pontifex Has anyone read this:
https://www.york.ac.uk/music/conferences/nema/bethell/
4. Richard Bethell - Music, The University of York
york.ac.uk
Christopher Price Pontifex I find it a little odd that the HIP instrumentalists are supposed to play
"straight"-ish (no one says vibrato and other "tricks" of tone and pitch should be completely avoided by
them, surely) while the singers with them are often expected to apply (pretty uniformly - no one suggests
modern opera singers - for want of a better term - never vary their vibrato or drop it completely or
almost so at moments for special effect, surely) a vibrato that is both heavy to the point of being a bleat
or a shake (depending on the voice) and often (in my experience as a listener) interferes with passages of
intricate or densely ornamented writing. It is no answer that manufactured instruments are different
from the natural human vocal organ. Surely they should share a common aesthetic - and this is not
limited to vibrato but also to quality of tone, means of expression, volume and use of dynamics, etc ...
(Oh dear, I got all tied up in sentences that cannot end!)
Nicholas Clapton Christopher Price Pontifex There is a wealth of information here, but, in my opinion,
some very odd conclusions: Sting as an exemplar for the performance of Dowland songs - God help us all!
Christopher Price Pontifex Amen about Sting. And sadly he has not generated the interest in Dowland and
his contemporaries among the wider, pop-loving public that many supporting critics predicted and
praised him for.
Christopher Price Pontifex The important thing about that study is that there does seem to have been a
sharp change in attitude among performers first (with music critics reacting against it) and then their
audiences towards heavier and more constant vibrato. Which suggests that vibrato was customarily
much less pronounced and more judiciously (or parsimoniously) applied before then.
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Job Ter Haar Christopher Price Pontifex it's a little odd indeed and personally I don't like it, but those
things were completely normal in the 19th century or the beginning of the 20th century. There were
string quartets of which the first violinist didn't vibrate, and the second violinist did. And we still find it
normal that in a trio for clarinet, cello and piano the cellist vibrates himself to death and the clarinettist
does one or two cycles per movement maximum.
Christopher Price Pontifex Any evidence for this happening normally or often pre 19th century?
Job Ter Haar Hard to say, but I am almost sure that it did happen. Mozart [Wolfgang] complained about
certain singers in a production having a bad vibrato; but it seems they would be singing together with
singers without this 'disease', otherwise he would probably complain about the whole cast.
Christopher Price Pontifex Oh, yes, of course.
Christopher Price Pontifex And another thing: where does the oft-repeated belief that reducing vibrato is
unhealthy come from? Can we be sure that it was not simply a (sensible) response to the punishing demands of
the style of heightened power and tone required or espoused for much later opera? In other words, is the idea
just a late 19th or 20th century one or did it have currency before, say, 1800?
Nicholas Clapton Why does vibration in the sung sound not automatically disappear when a singer who uses it
sings quietly?
Christopher Price Pontifex Because a singer trained and accustomed to use it when singing normally continues to
apply it, I suppose, as it is a fundamental part of her/his technique.
Nicholas Clapton ... but vibrato is not applied, it is a matter of release. I think we are very far apart here,
and should just agree to disagree. I can sing without vibrato, but prefer not to ...
Christopher Price Pontifex That's very interesting, in light of my comment about my own completely
untutored voice.
Christopher Price Pontifex Different people, different strokes
Nicholas Clapton Quite.
Christopher Price Pontifex I just don't enjoy the different strokers, unfortunately! They don't seem to
accord with the grammar and syntax of much of the music from the 17th and 18th centuries.
Luke Green And thereby hangs a tale...singers possessing a voice of great size and clarity were effectively
kidnapped (such as Captain Cooke scouring the cathedrals of England for the Chapel Royal boys) or sold
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via the indenture system and effectively owned by their master...those of us with indifferent voices
cannot always understand the reason for why voices are superior in all respects to our own. I also think
that the Victorian attitude to soloistic singing mentioned in many reviews was a spikey backlash against
what reviewers considered the excesses of flamboyant performance in the Georgian period. This was the
age of rediscovering Victoria and Palestrina and the Latin Mass, massed choirs (the music of Purcell,
Greene and Boyce fell out of favour because of their frequent reliance on verse singing-showing off in
church strictly not allowed).
Luke Green Amateur music making was on the rise (good) judging professional singers by amateur
standards by scribbling about them incessantly in the press (a long standing British pastime)-not so good.
Luke Green I leave this conversation on a personal note. The task of a singer is to touch us deeply and
create empathy with their audience. Crooning away with a half-produced voice does not touch us deeply.
Vibrato is a construct, yes, it is a skill that heightens the natural undulation of the human voice, yes...but
it also generates a kind of empathy in the listener that touches to the core of his/her physicality. It cannot
be done effectively by the singer unless their entire body is engaged, from the toes to the scalp and
several other important places on the way. This is different from singing softly to a child or a burst of your
favourite music in the shower. Why perform if the result is solely for your own gratification? And how are
you using your voice to form a visceral bond with those who have come to support you in the practice of
your art? I don't see such a great difference between this approach to solo singing and choral singing
either.
Christopher Price Pontifex I think my wife would say I am not singing in isolation in the shower, as she
claims she can hear me several rooms away! I do have an audience, even if unappreciative and reacting in
a contrary way to my expression!
Robert Crowe I think that you have to be willing to sing without vibrato (which I do, in fact do) in order to be able
to sing without vibrato. It does take a change in technique to achieve it, and a voice that has never done it will
experience, in all likelihood, significant distress.
Christopher Price Pontifex I am not a trained singer, but my experience in singing (in a school choir years ago,
before my HIPster days) and in the shower) was that it was very difficult to sing with vibrato - even while I
achieved a very mild tremble on some notes. My impression was that a lot of hard, difficult training goes into
developing a strong vibrato for Verdi, Puccini and the rest.
Nicholas Clapton ... I think that was a misleading impression.
Christopher Price Pontifex It's still my impression. it does not come naturally and I have to force it to get
it nowadays. Only for shower purposes of course!
Nicholas Clapton ... it's all in the breathing.
Robert Crowe This is a mistaken assumption, and probably lies in the generally higher laryngeal position
of the amateur singer
...though even here, classically untrained country singers like Dolly Parton, who sing with a (to me)
audibly high larynx, have an often fast vibrato. And it is manifestly not unhealthy, as she is now seventy
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and still singing--the voice is lower and no longer as pure, but she's still going.
The lowered larynx of most singing post-1840s makes a vibrato a fairly natural, though hardly inevitable
by-product, but the prevalence of vibrato also in high-larynx singing makes it unlikely that the lowered
larynx alone is either the cause or the cure.
Nicholas Clapton Thank you.
Robert Rawson I'm wading back into this conversation with a sense of dread, but here goes. Vocal production and
aesthetics change over time. Listen to a recording from 30 years ago, 50 years ago and 100 or more years ago and
that will be clear. The repertoire doesn't really matter that much. A number of different factors must come into
play in any discussion of vibrato in singing. In the seventeenth century (and well into the eighteenth) there is
good evidence that registers were not combined either at all, or to the same degree as they are now. This should
be uncontroversial: we do things differently now, from how they were done several centuries ago. The necessity
of being able to sing or play without vibrato is clear in the treatises—just as it clear that singers should have
vibrato in their arsenal. Bacilly is perhaps one of the few treatises who says it is possible to be a professional
singer without any vibrato at all—at least we can assume that such creatures were around, though probably not
the ideal solo singer. Whilst I am typing this, Robert Crowe has addressed the issue of changes in vocal
production. Like any other decoration of sound in the 17th or 18th centuries, the differences in application are
going to be different (thank God!). For the sake of this conversation, I wouldn't want to hire a singer who was
unable to sing with vibrato any more than I would hire one who sings with a constant vibrato. Mercifully, the
latter creatures are rare indeed.
Nicholas Clapton I think most Italian singers/composers/teachers of Bacilly's time would have thought
that anything he wrote about singing was laughable ... Most conservatoire-trained singers sing with
constant "vibrato", though there are many horrors lurking behind that much-abused word.
Robert Rawson That sounds like guessing. There is no sign that authors of Italian treatises found Bacilly's
writings laughable. Do you have any evidence of that? I do agree that most modern conservatoire-trained
singers now sing with something close to a constant vibrato.
Christopher Price Pontifex Yes. Complete wishful thinking.
Christopher Price Pontifex I think I read somewhere that in Paris and the French Court around 1690 or so
the highest praise a singer could garner was that she or he was "precise". I may be mis-recollecting. But
there is something in the writing of late 17th century French vocal music, just as there is in a different
way in the writing in Italian secular or stage music in Stradella's time, to my ears, that suggests that a
certain "instrumental" perfection was assumed in the voice. The mixture of dense noodles and long held
lines over agitated instrumental parts suggests a smooth, largely unwavering voice was required.
Robert Rawson "The mixture of dense noodles…"—oh yes, it's lunch time!
Christopher Price Pontifex I just had a late dinner, as I think is now clear! It's late at night here in Sydney.
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Nicholas Clapton Robert Rawson It's was just generally accepted that Italian and French ideals of singing
were so far apart, that they each thought the other dreadful. It's NOT wishful thinking, Mr Pontifex, I've
read as many books as you have! No, I'm not going to produce chapter and verse.
Christopher Price Pontifex I think you have probably read more. At least about music. It's your profession.
I'm still digesting that vibrato is more a release than an application. Fascinating.
Robert Rawson Nicholas Clapton In some aspects of style, yes, but production was not-so-different. They
had different approaches to breathing, for example—but we digress. I don't know of any Italian treatise
that complains, even obliquely, about Bacilly. It's fine to have a personal style (in fact, it's wonderful!),
but even informally, it's best to support claims about performance practices with evidence where
possible.
Robert Rawson Of course Nicolas, none of [us] are going to sit here and bash out examples from
treatises—I appreciate that!
Nicholas Clapton I quite see what you're getting at, and you're probably right. Differences in breathing
would have made a huge difference to the sound, I think. I wasn't really thinking about treatises, more
about cultural attitudes.
Robert Rawson Here is my completely informal, from-the-hip suggestion: if we could travel back to 1700
and hear 10 singers from 10 countries, I think the thing that would surprise us the most would be how
different they were from each other. One of the disappointments, not only in HIP circles, but in music
more generally, is the modern tendency toward uniformity. That problem is virtually the same, whether
we're talking about Wagner, Caccini, Lully or Bartok. That's a pity.
Christopher Price Pontifex Ah, evidence. I know it's probably a little earlier than the period under
discussion, but which approach is preferable here: http://youtu.be/xeEU4kQwC7U Or
http://youtu.be/GHvK_XYTo0c. Or. http://youtu.be/_T1ddtn-5iM .
Aura soave - Luzzasco Luzzaschi
youtube.com
Christopher Price Pontifex Great variety of approach in the 3 examples, but for me the first two (Perrine
Devillers and Roberta Mameli), though very different from each other, are gorgeous and the third one,
paying little heed to HIP vocal principles, is a disaster. It's the music, more than any 17th or 18th century
treatise or oblique or vague description of a singer's deportment in a baroque period letter or diary that
tells us what was expected of a singer of the time.
Nicholas Clapton Robert Rawson I quite agree.
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Christopher Price Pontifex Sorry, I’ve pasted in the wrong link for the Mameli and got another Recording
that I definitely do not admire. The Mameli is here: http://youtu.be/q-VaFmSXry8
L.Luzzaschi:Aura Soave, Roberta Mameli
youtube.com
Nicholas Clapton Christopher Price Pontifex I quite agree, the third singer is poor, and would be so
whatever she was performing - all that pointless waving of the arms, and insufficient attention to the
text. Her breathing is also VERY strange.
Christopher Price Pontifex Yes, maybe she is a bad example, since she is just simply not very
accomplished. I cou
Christopher Price Pontifex I couldn't find the example I was searching for of a respected "modern style"
singer doing that piece. Can't even remember who it was. I just recall being shocked at the
approximativeness of it all and the shaking at the expense of those delicate lines contrasting long held
notes and passages of floridity.
Christopher Price Pontifex it is after 1.30 am here, so I must withdraw from this discussion. Good night.
David Lee And how close is this mic'd (and produced via added reverb)?! Try that in a concert hall or
opera house!
Like · 18 February at 12:39 · Edited
Christopher Price Pontifex Trawling through the recording catalogues, the latter seem to be very prevalent. When
was the last time any major character in a Handel opera recording was of the Early Music camp as distinct from
the Opera House Tradition? Constant vibrato, along with shrieking ascents and modern acting seem to be almost
invariable.
Robert Rawson Yes, the business has plenty of bad or badly-informed singers—but there are also
wonderful ones too!
Nicholas Clapton It is really very odd that we have HIP orchestral playing, "modern" singers (some with a
"historical" sense, some not), and very often "Konzeptregie" from some egotist of a director, all
happening in the same theatre at the same time ...
Christopher Price Pontifex He?
Luke Green I am not sure, Christopher, if you are aware of the physical effort required to sing with a fully
engaged voice...even to sing a pianissimo whilst delivering a text (see Janet Baker popping out piano top
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G's whilst trying to maintain exemplary diction and having to use vowel modification at the same time to
achieve artistic shading). And this was recorded in the old, smaller theatre at Glyndebourne. She was not
singing for herself or the front rows of the most expensive seats, nor for the recording, but for those at
the very back of the theatre.
Christopher Price Pontifex I have an inkling, that's why I admire those who do reach the back row without
compromising their HIP technique with modern operatic heavily braced tone and pronounced, lineobscuring vibrato.
Christopher Price Pontifex My main problem with many of the big opera stars who slum it in HIP opera
productions is that their voices don't sound quite human. I can't remember what Janet Baker sounded
like, but I think of the likes of Marilyn Horne and Leontyne Price and Maria Callas. They are not speaking
to me as human beings but as machines.
Christopher Price Pontifex Their epigones in HIP 18th century opera productions sound artificial in a bad,
non-early modern European sense.
Luke Green It's called technique. So that the voice can move, express text, project, colour and move us.
Christopher Price Pontifex So my kind of HIP singer has no technique? I'm sure that's not what you mean.
Robert Crowe I have never sung an opera, in an opera house, with a singer who did not use vibrato,
frequently. In a church, yes, but never in an opera house. It's also a bit of misunderstanding that baroque
opera houses are easier to sing in. The size and sympathy of the orchestra, even on period instruments,
has a great deal to do with whether one is heard, but also, the houses themselves are not THAT easy to
sing in. I've sung in half a dozen or more 18th century houses in Germany and Italy, and not one of them
was as easy to sing in as, say, the Staatstheater in Karlsruhe which was built in the 1950s.
OH...and Marchesi (back to Marchesi) was called an “Insensate machine” and “extravagant, Gothic, and
grotesque.” in 1791 (Innocenza della Lena), and Velluti was compared to a mechanical man, literally a
steam engine, when he sang, in 1826 (in the Atlas--music criticism in England in the 1810s and 20s was
almost always anonymous.)
Christopher Price Pontifex Not because they had the tone of a machine but because they were effortless
vocal acrobats.
Robert Crowe There was, as the eighteenth century waned, a rising sense of the virtuoso singer,
especially the castrato, as being an artificial, inhuman construct. This had a great deal to do with the
concomitantly rising bi-morphic gender construct, which left the hot-cold continuum of the previous two
centuries behind.
Robert Crowe They weren't effortless...certainly not Velluti, whose apparently painful efforts, or the
appearance of them, to make sounds was roundly criticized in the London magazines and newspapers--at
least, those not in the aristocratic camp.
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Luke Green Marilyn Horne and Leontyne Price were pre-HIP really, although many mezzos hold Marilyn
Horne as the pinnacle of stylish Handel singing and fully engaged florid singing at a time when it was
distinctly unfashionable. And she could still sing lyrically. Leontyne Price was an outstanding artist who
broke many racial barriers to sing with superlative artistry and warmth. Her Dove sono that Nicholas
Clapton posted last night was classily delivered with excellent ensemble and powerfully clear diction
(despite the poor recording quality), and although her portamenti would not be tolerated by many, I am
afraid they are part of the battery of late 18th cent expressive techniques. For as much as some
composers and critics railed against vibrato, portamento, outrageous caesuras and ornaments, singers
did it regardless.
Christopher Price Pontifex I think more study is needed about the acoustic effect of the lower orchestra
in opera houses while the singers performed effectively on their shoulders or the top of their heads. I
have experienced a couple of baroque period instrument concerts (not operas in a theatre, admittedly)
where the singer stood to one side of the ensemble and was immediately more audible.
Christopher Price Pontifex Persistent adulation of Marilyn Horne is one of the problems bedevilling
modern mezzos and contraltos. She was of a pre-HIP generation and it was her agility rather than any
historically directed element of her style of singing that impressed (and still does today) for baroque
opera arias in particular. I don't deny that any of the great opera stars referred to above was indeed
great. But each was great on the terms of her world. It's just that I think their manner is not appropriate
for HIP productions of baroque music and therefore that their modern admirers should stop calling for
their style of singing in Handel, etc ..., even if watered down somewhat. Two of the most accomplished
young Early Music singers to emerge in recent years are also the most hit-the-centre-of-the-soul dramatic
I have heard for a while: Perrine Devillers and Alice Borciani. Listen to them on YouTube. Polished
technique, healthy voices, true insight into their texts and music. And they achieve this expressive power
without compromising their delivery with "technique" (if that is now the code for traditional or modem
opera house style, Luke Green).
Christopher Price Pontifex When I say not appropriate, I mean judged pragmatically by the music. So
often a modern operatic style smothers or scoots over passages that are achievable only rarely by
someone with the lowered larynx and forceful breathing of that style of voice production. That's
observable objectively. Listen to any Cecilia Bartoli recording or to any by her male counterpart, Franco
Fagioli.
Christopher Price Pontifex And I might point out that Bartoli and Fagioli are extremely agile singers of
their type.
Christopher Price Pontifex wasn't it his play acting that was being criticized, much like the swooning,
head-swaying, eye-rolling mummery too many HIP performers indulge in today. Again, I think I read
something somewhere about standards of deportment expected of musicians at some point during the
baroque period ...
Nicholas Clapton Christopher Price Pontifex : I've had a listen to the two ladies you mentioned. Very nice
indeed, though I would like to hear them both with a full HIP orchestra, to see how they fared. Signorina
Borciani has a more-or-less constant vibrato/tremor/shake in her voice, at least here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Unuto8ejzc which I would be a little worried about were I to be her
teacher. Mlle. Devillers has more "control" over the "movement" in her voice. It's all lovely, in its way ...
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By the way, I completely disagree with you about modern technique being inaccurate - bad technique of
any kind, yes, but not if it's working properly, e.g. Bartoli and Fagioli, amazing flexibility, Anna Netrebko
can't "do" fast Verdi.
Alice Borciani Alessandro Grandi O intemerata
youtube.com
Robert Rawson As a complete aside: I heard (about 20 years ago!) a wonderful recital by Jessye Norman
of Debussy and Ravel songs, where, from time to time, she released long notes with no obvious vibrato at
all. The effect was stunning. For my own taste, variety is essential.
Nicholas Clapton Conscious control, brilliant!
Christopher Price Pontifex Nicholas, if you were referring to the kind of vibrato Alice Borciani uses
(glorious performance) when you say vibrato is natural and unavoidable, you would have no argument
from me. She uses vibrato quite a bit in that piece (which I have heard and admired before) but if you
listen carefully it is by no means constant and unvarying, never distorts the pitch and is used as basically a
kind of expressive enhancer rather than as a means to maintain a static tonal hyper-brilliance. My
complaint is about an almost omnipresent heavy shake or shudder that interferes with the shape and
direction of the vocal line - at the extreme end, the kind of vibrato you employ, in fact (in the rare bits I
have heard you sing) . It is undeniable that Bartoli and Fagioli, for all their heavy vocal musculature and
agility simply miss or fudge many noodly passages. (By the way, My use of the noodle description comes
from Mozart, who referred to coloratura as noodles in one letter).
Martin Spaink Another interesting point is the similarity of instrumental parts and vocal parts in scores of papa
Bach, laden with trills and what-not.
Massimiliano Di Mario Dramatic, constantly emphatic performance is a modern practice.
Job Ter Haar Taruskin wouldn't agree smile emoticon
Roland Hutchinson I don't know what in particular you are responding to, Job Ter Haar. But your
conclusion is undoubtedly sound.
Job Ter Haar smile emoticon I was responding to this remark: "Dramatic, constantly emphatic
performance is a modern practice."
Klaus Miehling Indeed, read e.g. Bérard's "L'Art du chant" (1755), Chap. X, "De l'Action propre au Chant".
- Btw, for him Vibrato ("Flatté ou Balancé") is an ornament, and very rarely applied.
Like · · 9 February at 21:08 · Edited
Martin Spaink Wonder why this book has not come up yet? Greta Moens-Haenen 1988
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George Kennaway I think it briefly surfaced on a related thread.
Christopher Suckling The summary chapter is available in English here:
https://www.york.ac.uk/music/conferences/nema/haenen/
(part, of course, of Richard Bethell's conference)
10. Greta Haenen - Music, The University of York
The world of early music has finally received a long overdue and much-needed investigation of performance
practices: Das Vibrato in der Musik des Barock: Ein Handbuch zur Aufführungspraxis für Vokalisten und
Instrumentalisten by Greta Moens-Haenen (Graz: Akademische Druck- und Verlagsanstalt, 1988).…
york.ac.uk
Massimiliano Di Mario Regarding Vibrato as a healthy thing for the voice, it may be so at the siren-like volumes
which singers are used to performing.. more than singing it is controlled shouting, so naturally the voice must
distort from its natural state to accommodate all that volume. And let's talk about diction? When Sinatra sings he
has perfect diction and control of his vibrato.. he also sold millions of records.. Yes he did not have to shout to the
back of a hall but don't you all think that is at the root of the problem? This contest to fill huge spaces with music
that was meant to be played in small spaces? For the Industrial-sized halls, we have industrial equipment to
amplify the voice.
Luke Green Sinatra lived in an age of amplification.
Christopher Price Pontifex Good point but I think that is also Massimiliano's point in a different sense
Massimiliano Di Mario Yes, there is a limit to how much a voice can shout and still be controllable. If you aim to
be the loudest and fullest singer it's probably because it's impressive and louder than other singers and you can
fill a huge hall.
At those volumes the voice becomes an uncontrollable warble without the capacity to pronounce words properly
because you can only shout using open tones that won't impede the sound from coming-out. So you get this
unintelligible warble that sounds like a cross between an air-raid siren and a cow with almost no attention to the
libretto, phrasing, etc. etc..
The kind of halls used now are too big for traditional singing as are the orchestras. Too loud! It's just another
elephant in the room that the music has become industrial in its size and volume but classical musicians 'don't
use microphones'.
....ok then play in halls that are smaller and with orchestras that play more quietly and sing like they used to.
Unlike · · 4 · 18 February at 12:03
Richard Bethell You are right, George, I summarised Greta Haenen's conclusions earlier in this thread (V4) and
mentioned in V14 the surprising fact that her book appeared to have had no impact on vocal practice. Thanks
Christopher for providing the link to the summary chapter, translated by Frederick Gable. He [Gable] also wrote a
good essay on vibrato for a 1992 edition of Performance Practice Review, which you can download at:http://scholarship.claremont.edu/ppr/vol5/iss1/9
Like · · 2 · 18 February at 20:58 · Edited
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V5. George Kennaway, launched 21 Jan 2016
George Kennaway
21 January at 14:17
This 'pure' voice topic just keeps going!
Early-Music Ensembles: Praised as Pure, but Seeking More
Descriptions of female singers can be narrow, with purity a recurrent concept. But that’s not how the artists see
it.
mobile.nytimes.com|By Corinna da Fonseca-Wollheim
Cristl Jerry, Robert Berger and 14 others like this.
Comments
Christopher Suckling And yet never seems to move forward...
George Kennaway Quite. What is it about vibrato that gets people so worked up anyway?
Jedediah Allen Perhaps your question was rhetorical but I'll respond anyway; It's a volatile subject
because we have little evidence on the matter and competing schools of thought. In my humble opinion, I
always find the use of vibrato wonderful but ONLY when it suits the musical context. Of course, this
opens up another discussion.
Cristl Jerry The use of 'forced' vocal vibrato is clearly misunderstood by many. Its use has come to be used
as a compulsory technique by many trained singers. When used in the right way as a decorative or
expressive device it is wonderful. Otherwise I can only describe it as being painful.
Jedediah Allen I know of at least one source that states vibrato should be treated as an ornament. Thus,
"rules/suggestions" governing ornaments should be applied here as well.
Christopher Suckling I was doing a couple of 19th century classes with some modern string undergrads at the
beginning of the year. The funny thing was that differences in vibrato usage didn't really bother them, but play
some recordings of c. 1905 portamento and torches and pitchforks came out...
David Hansell We still have much to explore and try in terms of late 19th/early 20th century perf prac.
Stephen Muir As long as you can tell what note is being sung, it's fine...!
Ján Janovčík this is by far not limited to the question of vibrato.
Just as an example: I talked with Bjorn Schmelzer (of Graindelavoix) in the summer and he mentioned their
Palestrina project and how the way they sang his MIssa Papae Marcelli caused (once again) commotion and
scandal. So I headed over to their website and listened.
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www.graindelavoix.be
(I can't link to it directly, so head over there, click on "Work" and then down among Future projects on
"Antipalestrina/Wunderkammer")
So what on earth is so scandalous about that recording of Agnus Dei? That they dare to put ornaments in 16th
cent. music? Yes, it's absolutely not "pure" by any definition! But WHY should it be?
Zacconi tells us that those who sing in churches belt loudly (sic!) - gridar forte! Maffei writes: "one praises sweet
and smooth singing and another church singing" What does that tell you about the way you would sing in the
church...
Taylor DiClemente God forbid Graindelavoix to sing Palestrina with any emotion!
Stephen Muir Sarah Potter, please enlighten us!!
Ján Janovčík And this goes IMO much further back that just 70s and 80s. You can see the same aesthetics at work
in the Gregorian chant "restoration" by Solesmes and in quite a big portion of the mediaeval revival of the late
19th century.
Ján Janovčík We approach the mediaeval and renaissance music with the mental image of a whitewashed gothic
cathedral and forget these churches were full of colour...
George Kennaway Thing is, my question about why is vibrato so contentious is prompted by the quite
extraordinary language that is used by those who find it inappropriate. This is not a new thing - there are amazing
examples from the 1920s of vitriolic attacks on vibrato. And let's be clear - for the 19th century at any rate,
there's lots of source material about the use of vibrato, and early recordings are obviously relevant here as well.
But in my experience, people are quite happy to laugh a bit at string portamento, or any number of keyboard
practices, or contrametric rubato, as amusing old-fashioned playing. It doesn't get under their skin like vibrato
does. Why?
Martin Spaink it is an interesting question George, but very hard to give a satisfactory answer. I can only
be very grateful that HIP happened, otherwise I have no idea what I'd be listening to.
Christopher Suckling I suspect an answer to this question would reveal much about the last fifty years of music
making. I also suspect it's more of a sociological than musicological question. Are we all ready to call into question
our identities?
George Kennaway Well Christopher, this is where my own work is heading!
Ján Janovčík singer - voice - identity, I think that's approaching the answer to the question posed. A voice and its
quality is much more a part of the identity of a singer than instrumental technique for a player. (and I say this as a
singer... wink emoticon.
David Hansell Are there not also issues over what might be suitable for a soloist and what might be suitable in
chamber/orchestral contexts?
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Ian Pace And are we prepared to consider the possibility that these vocal ideals might reflect pederastic ideals
which have existed for centuries in elite British schools and choirs, and elsewhere?
(And every bit as much for male as female singers - both praised to the extent their voices resemble those of
children)
Liza Graham Vibrato isn't something you 'use'; it's an intrinsic part of a healthy, trained voice. Straight-toning is
something you 'use' to placate irascible choral and early-music MDs who demand it. Vibrato can only be
eliminated at the expense of vocal health.
Jonathan Morgan Is it worth looking at the implications of that word 'trained'?
Ben Palmer Forgive me, but Liza's comment is just ridiculous...
Mike Bayliss The whole point of this discussion, Lisa, is the 'training' of singers to use constant vibrato as
if this was inevitable and unquestionable, when it is neither.
Bryan Burns This is a tired polemic.
George Kennaway But it staggers on!
Ben Palmer To answer George's question: in my opinion/experience, vibrato causes such strong feelings because
string players, singers, flautists etc are TAUGHT from an early age that it is a fundamental part of producing a
beautiful sound, and encouraged to develop it by their teachers. Ask for pure tone, and many musicians feel that
something important is being taken away. Other ornaments, portamento, tempo modifications etc, are all things
which are added, and therein lies the difference. As a conductor who encourages pure tone from both players
and singers, you simply would not believe the list of excuses/arguments/complaints that people have used to try
and dissuade me from this approach. Almost all of these opinions often seem to come from their teachers. The
problem is much less acute with younger players, most of whom are pleasingly versatile and HIP-aware, but
finding singers who can sing 'straight' is still alarmingly difficult.
Mike Bayliss Well said, Ben - absolutely.
Martin Spaink I'll never forget a St. John's Passion here in NL, an amateur choir with 'rented' soloists, mostly ok,
but the soprano put me on edge in an unforgettable way. She emitted a wide and nervous vibrato, shrieking
accents, all the wrong stuff. During 'Zerfliesse mein Herze' I was writhing and squirming in my chair, getting sick in
the stomach, and I wanted to come out and slap her. Did no such thing of course, but it was torment, in one of
the most beautiful arias....!!
Richard Bethell Reference V5 in the Vibrato Wars Series
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V6. Richard Bethell, launched 21 Jan 2016
Richard Bethell shared his post.
21 January at 18:42
Christoph Graupner (1683-1760): Kantaten - Capricornus Consort Basel/Miriam Feuersinger
Christoph Graupner (1683-1760) Cantatas, Excerpts: I. Kantate "Ach Gott und Herr" GWV…
youtube.com
Klaus Miehling and 3 others like this.
Comments
Klaus Miehling A good contribution to the recent vibrato discussion on this page!
Nicholas Clapton Pure, soulless, dull, boring, er ...
Klaus Miehling Pure and beautiful!
Nicholas Clapton I think German is your mother tongue. This singing doesn't respond AT ALL to the text being
sung: it's certainly a beautiful sound/noise, but it's not singing as an interpretative act in any sense whatsoever,
so for me is just accurate pitch-matching. The text might as well be a shopping list in Japanese or the weather
forecast for a distant part of Botswana for all the difference it would make. If that is really what you want from
"singing", good for you, but for me it's just not enough, whether the music is from the past, the present, or the
future.
Klaus Miehling Well, it's not opera. To me, this is more expressive than a singing that takes vibrato for
expression. The text could be more clear, but this may be due to the recording. However, with vibrato a
text it is usually less understandable than without.
Luke Green The funny thing was that Graupner and his wife were avid fans of Italian opera and modern
music in general (wasn't he active in composing some for Darmstadt?) and although there ought to be a
demarcation between the modesty appropriate for performance in church and the theatre, I don't think
this differentiation was really as great in the 1720's and '30's was as great as some modern musicians
would have it (as in this recording). I would have thought that the attention to singing technique as it was
developing in Italy and as it was adopted in other European countries would have filtered into church
music at this time.
Luke Green Interaction with famous Italian singers could be better documented at this time, such as
Bach's writing Jachzet Gott for a visiting castrato.
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Luke Green As to these cantatas being no opera, the recitative and aria forms adopted from opera and
the figurenlehrer of operatic gesture was very much part of a new invigoration entering
Evangelical/Lutheran church music, stemming from the Oratory movement of the counter-reformation,
beginning with composers like Kuhnau. Bach caused outrage amongst the parishioners of Leipzig for his
operatic gestures in the cantatas, the florid, instrumental style of singing pioneered by castrati such as
Pistocchi and flowing out to the rest of Europe through his successful students. They relished its
expressivity and shocking language, full of hyperbolic imagery, whether in church or theatre or concert
rooms.
Klaus Miehling Right, but it's already in the music. What I meant is that in church style - according to
historical sources - the expression has to be not so extreme as in theatrical style.
Nicholas Clapton Yes, I am VERY well aware of all that, but to me this has no style AT ALL, and the words
are so recessed as to be inaudible. Your earlier comment that with the vibrato the text is less audible is,
frankly, nonsense. "A singing that takes vibrato for expression" - vibrato is NOT expression, it is, in my
opinion, one part of engagement with text - it even happens in rhetorical speech, as in preaching, without
any singing at all. This lady has a lovely voice, but she doesn't sing WORDS, so why bother? We are clearly
many kilometres apart on this subject, so it's probably best to agree to disagree.
Luke Green Bad phonation made text unclear. I can see what they are aiming for, but such close microphoning
and suppression of colour makes otherwise joyous music sound whitewashed. Isn't Graupner a lovely composer
though?
Luke Green Ooh Nicholas snap.
Richard Bethell I posted this as an example of the pure, vibrato-free vocalism I enjoy when listening to baroque
music. Also, it is supported by the historical record, as Tosi, Burney and Richard Bacon would have approved of
Feuersinger's sound. Unfortunately, it is rare today, almost to vanishing point, mainly because the vocal
hegemony (the tyranny of the status quo) insists on constant vibrato, certainly in opera. For a handful of other
examples, please hear my Spotify Playlists Vibrato Free Classical Singing.
Nicholas Clapton Good for you, it bores me utterly, no meaning, no engagement, "shopping list singing", dull,
dull, dull. I'd rather listen to paint dry ...
Richard Bethell Reference V6 in the Vibrato Wars Series
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V7. George Kennaway, launched 21 Jan 2016
George Kennaway shared Andrew Lawrence-King's post.
21 January at 18:50
And still they come...
Vibrato Wars | Early Music America
Vibrato Wars By Brandon Labadie May 26, 2015 in Judith Malafronte Summer 2015 View the full pdf version here.
Many people think a peace treaty was signed after the vibrato wars of the 1970s, when the plush string textures
of the modern symphony orchestra were challenged by the leaner sound of history…c
earlymusicamerica.org
Klaus Miehling, Martin Spaink, Gerardo Ruiz and 4 others like this.
Comments
David Bray This is one of the best articles I have read on this subject. Just one thing I'd like to add : for singers,
vibrato can be created in three ways - by a more or less conscious movement of the larynx (quite easy to control),
by varying the air pressure (adding "warmth" or "intensity" to the note - harder to control but essentially at
around 6 beats per sec hence the "normal" speed of instrumental vibrato) or by forcing the tone without
adequate muscular control (the wobble, wild, often wide in pitch, often quite slow, and often associated with an
ageing singer). The professional singer knows the difference and how/when to use the first two, depending on
repertoire and the preferences of the musical director.
Richard Bethell This is a very short thread, but includes important article from Early Music America. Reference V7
in Vibrato Wars series.
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V8. Nicholas Clapton, launched 21 Jan 2016
Nicholas Clapton
21 January at 21:59, 21:59
Oh, and for those of us who like Purcell, this:
Janet Baker - Dido & Aeneas - When I am laid in earth
Dame Janet Baker sings one of the most beautiful arias of all opera, from Purcell's Dido and Aeneas.
Glyndebourne, 1966. Conductor: Charles Mackerras.
youtube.com
Christopher Suckling and 6 others like this.
Comments
Luke Green Wow. Pianissimo recitative with less vibrato, then; full, fast, with incredible shading with dynamic
control.
Roderick Mallia It is indeed, a great interpretation.
Richard Bethell I love Purcell, but can't get on with this massive, overtly passionate account. Purcell's
contemporary Pierfrancesco Tosi wouldn't have approved either, as he believed that sweetness, softness and
tenderness are needed to express the "delightful soothing cantabile". Technically, he would condemn Baker's
mouth shape on some vowel sounds. "Remember me" sung FFF at full belt with wide open mouth comes out as
"Ramaamba maa". Roger Drabble (boy soprano) produces a sound closest to what Purcell would have heard
(pianoforte accompaniment excepted) from his 16 year old girl singer at Josias Priest's school. If you prefer it
from an adult, Andreas Scholl's interpretation is acceptable. You can find both singers' versions on Spotify.
Nicholas Clapton Taste and opinion are very powerful things. A falsettist countertenor should never sing this
music, according to the latest research. I am sure master Drabble is very good, but would you like to hear an
adolescent boy acting Cleopatra or Lady Macbeth? Odd, isn't it, that that hasn't "caught on" ...
David Hansell So many reasons why men of any pitch/voice type shouldn't sing this piece . . .
Richard Bethell Isn't the prohibition of counter-tenors from singing Purcell somewhat extreme?
Falsettists were quite common through the baroque, well into the first decades of the 19th C. Coryat
enthused about a countertenor at the San Rocco festival in 1608, with "such a supernaturall voice for
such a privilege for the sweetness of his voice". Dominique Visse's Dowland interpretation (see my
Spotify playlist} comes closest to this description. The last important falsettist (before the voice was
revived by Alfred Deller) was William Knyvett; his tone was described by Richard Bacon in 1820 as "pure,
sweet, and brilliant, but in point of volume it is so limited, that one never hears Mr. K. in a song without
lamenting its want of power". The best authority in this field is Simon Ravens. He notes that
countertenors singing Purcell (see his Supernatural Voice), tended to be dual register singers, with a
normal baritone/tenor chest voice (he uses the term "modal", whatever that means) plus a falsetto
extension.
In practical terms, it is surely an acceptable compromise for counter-tenors to deliver castrati roles.
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Nicholas Clapton Well, just read Andrew Parrott's new book, which puts the lid on falsettists singing
nearly any Purcell (or the music of his contemporaries). I am a falsettist countertenor myself . You might
also like to have a look at my review of Simon Ravens' book in "Early Music". "Modal" is the term used by
laryngologists (and others) to describe the vocal function one might describe as "adult speaking voice".
David Hansell Andrew Parrot's recent article in Early Music is powerful stuff - and there is absolutely no
evidence at all that falsettists sang lute songs before Deller. I'm a fasettist too!
Nicholas Clapton His recently-published book "Composers' Intentions?" is altogether excellent.
Luke Green Ann Bracegirdle's singing of invocation scenes was so ultramontane (I use this word advisedly) that
she was obliged by social niceties of the time to sing it ad orientem as in the Latin Mass, which I am sure caused a
stir. This suggests to me that singer-actresses were using methods such as we see in Dame JB's to place the voice
effectively but which might have offended notions of female propriety of the time. I get excited reading about the
emergent female artist of this time, as opposed to the largely male dominated stage, and the vibrancy and
passion that these pioneers brought to music making (and were often persecuted for it).
Kate Brown Luke Green, you are so right. Why do people insist that Purcell wrote his dramatic music for boys? He
wrote countless songs and incidental music for the theatre, particularly in the last decade of his life, and although
there were singing boys, actresses like Ann Bracegirdle were well-known and well-prized for their musical
expression - the taste of the time was for plays with music, not for opera, and Anne was a star. Besides which,
there's good reason to think that Dido was written originally for Court (and for a woman to sing), and that Josiah
Priest adapted it for the girls.
David Hansell Do 'people really insist that P's dramatic music was for boys? Possibly some confusion with
the start of the century.
Oliver Webber Nobody (as far as I'm aware) is insisting it was written for boys. The most recent debate,
alluded to above, is whether counter-tenors or high tenors were used for the parts in alto range.
David Hansell define 'counter-tenor; Oliver Webber! I use the term falsettist of myself these days - less
ambiguous.
Oliver Webber Fair enough - falsettist it is!
Christopher Price Pontifex Why does anyone care about Purcell's dramatic music. Pretty dull stuff generally
except for Dido's Lament. How's that for a cat among the pigeons?
Grant Colburn Yeah, whatever wink emoticon
David Hansell Actually I think there is a 'pleasure problem' when it comes to performances of the music in
its full original contexts. But I'll happily take 'bleeding chunks'.
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Grant Colburn David Hansell Well, for me personally I wouldn't have an interest in seeing ANY opera of
any time period which lasted over an hour probably. But that said I could probably handle a 3 hour semi
opera by Purcell much easier than hearing Wagner or Verdi wink emoticon
David Hansell We're all entitled to personal preferences. I enjoy opera (though not indiscriminately) but
am unlikely to be found in the audience for a Bruckner symphony!
Grant Colburn David Hansell Or Mahler wink emoticon Though I live a life as a professional musician
every day I simply don't have the patience to listen the things much past a half hour....
Luke Green King Arthur? Fairy Queen? Indian Queen? To name a few...then there's all the incidental music to the
plays. The Frost scene or the great Passacaille from King Arthur? Ye Twice Ten Hundred Deities from Indian
Queen? And for joyousness, the Birthday of King Oberon in the Fairy Queen, or silliness, Corydon and Mopsa?
Oliver Webber I've just listened to this. Very powerful singing, I agree, (though occasionally the vibrato distorts,
as on the final "remember me") but I don't like the excessive stretching of the beat- I don't think it heightens the
drama, rather it takes away from the sense of inevitability that the ground bass provides. Purcell was a genius
with a ground bass, it's such an essential part of his musical personality, so to me it's a shame to lose that.
Luke Green To be able to sing 'remember me' on that final top G (especially for a mezzo) with excellent
diction at any dynamic and without constricting the voice is nigh impossible. It is not the vibrato which
distorts, it is the placement of text with so many consonants at a pitch well above that of normal spoken
pitch...
Luke Green Besides I doubt that any woman who has recently poisoned/stabbed herself or seriously
considering immolating herself on a funerary pyre would have outstanding diction!
Oliver Webber No, I don't mean the vowel sound- I understand that point. I find the intense vibrato
distorts the quality of the note and the focus of the pitch.
Luke Green Yes, although a different time, different agendas and so forth. I look for authenticity of artistry and
feeling as much as musicological verity. We mustn't dismiss the efforts of an earlier age and Charles Mackerras
was a ground breaker for historical performance practice at this time. Imagine Raymond Leopard with the same
sort of score and you might understand what I am saying.
Oliver Webber I wasn't dismissing it, note. I was just commenting on what I found effective or otherwise today- I
agree about pioneering efforts of earlier generations.
Oliver Webber Here's a contrasting version by a favourite singer of mine. http://youtu.be/-H--Z9UzQYE
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Henry Purcell: Dido's Lament, Anna Dennis, soprano, with…
youtube.com
Robert Rawson Beautiful.
Robert Rawson It's just like music!
Anthony Robson Very lovely !
Christopher Price Pontifex Oh! Too much vibrato. I was so looking forward to hearing a nice version. This
one by Evelyn Tubb a few years ago I think combines appropriate vocal technique and a well-conceived
theatrical style: http://youtu.be/4gyQWW_OC_4
Evelyn Tubb - Purcell: Dido's lament - When I…
youtube.com
Luke Green It is beautiful. She does have to do the same technical shift as DJB does to sing with clarity but
less so as she is a soprano. The sostenuto nature of the strings is still there and perhaps easier to do at a
brisker tempo. It's not really possible or entirely fair to compare the two but it is also true that some
things are made very much easier for the singer at this tempo.
Luke Green I do not wish to discuss or compare the merits or otherwise of singers whom I know or have
worked with here, as it is pretty bad form. Some are friends and colleagues and so please do be careful.
Many of you are instrumentalists and the singer's instrument is their entire physicality.
Oliver Webber Yes- obviously not a directly comparable performance, not least because it is a concert
performance. Actually it's not so much the tempo that bothers me but the tempo *fluctuation* (in the
Baker performance, I mean). And the strings *should* be sostenuto- but not without inflection. One of
the things I think HIP has taught string players is how to find the right balance between legato lines and
inflected playing; the strings in the Baker performance are legato with a constant vibrato and no shapingthe effect is like a straight line of music, as well as being too quiet generally in my opinion. Point taken
about colleagues- though I posted with nothing but praise intended!
Luke Green What's wrong with a bit of tempo rubato amongst friends? For goodness' sake the lady's
dying and only has munchkins to aid her.
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Robert Rawson Since we're being all scholarly again—what evidence do you have for use of ritardando
[edited to replace 'tempo rubato'] in late seventeenth-century England?
Oliver Webber Luke Green I explained why I think it's wrong here (not necessarily in other places, of
course): because it takes dramatic power away from the musical form of the ground bass. Also this is not
true tempo rubato, in which the accompaniment remains in tempo while the soloist (vocal or
instrumental) stretches here or pushes forward there. This is just a series of ritardandos.
Luke Green We must also be attuned to the human situation here...the lady is dying. I think the romantic
conditioning of maintaining beauty of Vocal line and string sound at a cost to dramatic verity would have
made people in the 1960's painfully aware of the artificial construct of Dido's Lament as opposed to
Desdemona's Ave Maria in Otello. People didn't know Dido quite as well as other music: it was up to DJB
and Mackerras to sell the music on the Glyndebourne stage with the battery of musical expression at
hand (i.e. full-on romantic delivery-well, I think probably even still toned down from what was possible
then). For this reason and because of her supreme artistry I still rank this a great performance. I am
personally moved by it.
Luke Green Robert Rawson there is very good evidence for using 'drag' as a sort of ritenuto...
Luke Green In Purcell and Locke. You might be able to give chapter and verse.
Oliver Webber I'm not saying it was necessarily wrong *then*, I'm saying I find it unconvincing *now*.
Yes, "drag", "slow" and similar words often used in English compositions in late 17C. But at the very endand often accompanied by a change of metre. Not to my knowledge ever within a ground bass and
before the end- though I'm happy to stand corrected on that if I'm wrong. (Edited - I didn't mean "within"
a change of metre, which doesn't really make sense!)
Luke Green Yes there is a sense that a ground bass grinds inexorably to its tragic end but then
doesn't...but that is notwithstanding the death that is taking place on stage. All these tensions...a Royal
person giving way to passion in a self-destructive way, non-syntactical sentences revealing her imminent
collapse and death, and so forth. Her final utterances reveal a selflessness that ought to be enveloped in
an ikon-like string sound. These things must find resonance in a performance, not just dots and dashes.
Robert Rawson Luke Green That springs to mind whenever I argue in favour of ritardando. I wonder,
though, if he just means 'slower' or if he means 'gradually slower'?
Robert Rawson Andrew Lawrence-King. Do you hear the sound of the tactus here?!
Grant Colburn Luke Green I think you have a magnet drawing these discussions to you lately wink
emoticon
Christopher Price Pontifex It's not the theatricality of the performance per se that is deficient (for want of a
better term) but the particular style of theatricality, coupled with a vocal delivery that is gorgeous by Romantic
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music standards but sits uncomfortably with the more rational (for want of a better term) emotion of the music.
It has been so long since I have heard a modern instrument performance that I was quite shocked by the spongey
and woolly sound of the strings. It recalls to us how far HIP performance has come.
Robert Hollingworth My goodness that (Anna) is a fantastic performance. Wow.
Anthony Robson They're all fantastic performances, all saying things to us, let's not forget that folks !
Richard Bethell Reference V8 in Vibrato Wars series
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V9. Christopher Suckling, launched 23 Jan 2016
Christopher Suckling
23 January at 20:59
The thread below goes massively off the original topic but is incredibly informative. Below you will find:
Erudite discussion of seventeenth century sources related to vibrato.
Suggestions of a study day to really get stuck into this topic.
Refreshingly few polemics!
And now read on...--A postscript to the recent vibrato debates:
TL;DR: opinions on vibrato form early in musical development!
The opportunity presented itself this afternoon at RCM Junior Department to play a group of talented 17 and 18
year olds two recordings of the prologue from Monteverdi L'Orfeo. The recordings were chosen to demonstrate
very different approaches to performing L'Orfeo. From an operatic perspective I played Haïm's recording; from a
madrigalian perspective I played Parrott's recording. The students were to analyse the differences in
interpretation that appeared to stem from different concepts of scale.
I tried to encourage neutral debate, but it was immediately clear, even at their age and experience, that
prejudices had already been formed. Words and phrases such as "pure", "out of control vibrato", "lack of
expression", and "other-worldly" came forth unbidden, and it was hard work to restrain analysis to what the
students were hearing rather than an expression of their personal tastes: two very familiar camps had formed
with great rapidity...
(Both camps were blown away by Janet Baker's Dido, although not all liked it.)
Interesting comments were also made regarding instrumental timbre and harpsichord realisation, but it was
vibrato that awoke the passions!
You, Klaus Miehling, Oliver Webber, Mike Bayliss and 29 others like this.
Comments
Robert Berger But what would Monteverdi himself have approved of regarding vibrato ? We'll never know !
Klaus Miehling Very interesting! Yes, to me Baker's Dido seemed like a compromise between the two extremes.
Oliver Webber "We'll never know" should not be a reason not to wonder and investigate. Monteverdi doesn't
discuss it in his writings (to my knowledge), which logically could mean either that it never occurred to him as a
possible tool of expression or that it was commonplace and not worthy of discussion; but we do know a lot about
what was considered important for singers and instrumentalists in Monteverdi's day. The style of ornamentation,
both written and improvised, precludes a tone dependent on *continuous* vibrato, for example; for singers, the
ultimate priority was clear delivery of the text (stated time and time again by countless authors); while this per se
does not make vibrato impossible, it does exclude a wide, constant vibrato I had the misfortune to hear in
Wagner's Tannhauser this evening. Also bearing in mind that the melodic and harmonic language of the Seconda
Prattica demanded a very precise attention to pitch and intervals (including awareness of major and minor tones
and semitones), any pitch distortion is going to get in the way of that. Lots to learn, but no point in giving up just
because we don't have Claudio's phone number...
Lewis Ewan Jones Praetorius says that a certain amount is desirable, especially in church where a larger sound is
necessary...
Oliver Webber That's interesting- do you have the reference?
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Richard Bethell Michael Praetorius, Syntagma Musicum III,OUP, trans & ed. Jeffery T. Kite-Powell,
Instructions for Choirboys, P. 215. "First, a singer must have a voice that, by nature, has three positive
and three negative aspects. / The desirable qualities are these: first a singer must have a nice, pleasant
vibrato (not, however, like some are accustomed to in school, but clearly restrained) and a smooth, round
throat suitable for diminutions; second, he must have the ability to sustain continuous long tones without
having to take too many breaths; third, he must choose a voice range, such as cantus, altus, or tenor, etc.,
in which he can hold a full bright sound [laut] without falsetto (i.e., half and forced voice). / At this time
intonatio and exclamatio must be mentioned."
Lewis Ewan Jones No I don't, I wrote that and have been trying to remember where it came from...I'm guessing
it's from the Syntagma somewhere, but I'm not familiar with all of it so am not sure. I seem to remember it
referenced in an article by Andrew Parrott (and in a lecture of his I attended about 6 or 7 years ago)...but I
couldn't begin to tell you with any certainty!
Oliver Webber I'll look it up when I get home; worth checking Caccini, Bovicelli and F Rognoni too- I don't recall
vibrato being mentioned by any of them but I could be wrong.
Richard Bethell I've studied Caccini. He does mention the trillo and what became known as the messa di
voce, but not vibrato.
Bruce Dickey The trouble is, of course, that the term "vibrato" did not come into use until the mid to late 19th
century. Any reference to what we think of as vibrato will probably fall under the term "tremolo", which also
includes all kinds of effects of fluctuation, that we would not consider to be vibrato. Bovicelli talks indirectly and
not very concretely about two kinds of "tremolo", one of which I think is a trillo and the other a kind of vibrato.
The other sources which are interesting on this are Zacconi. and Zenobi..
Shaun Ng I think the problem with discussing vibrato today is that it is very likely not the same ornament that is
described in many of the treatises, which means it is likely not a representation of the historical ornament. At
least in French sources, it is often described as a kind of tremblement (trill) that is often equal and slow. It is
clearly not used on every note (see Marais who wrote instrumental and vocal music) and is meant to be
perceptible. Some writers mention the violent shaking of the hand, while others describe it similar to the mewing
of a cat. Of course, we can interpret these writings in a few different ways, but it is almost certainly not what we
would recognise as a modern vibrato.
Oliver Webber Intrigued by Bruce's comment, I've dug out Bovicelli; his descriptions, albeit frustratingly
incomplete, are very interesting. The first reference is as follows: "Quello che si è detto de' groppetti, lo stesso
anco si deve osservare dopo il tremolo cioè di non incominciar altra sillaba: la quale nondimeno vi si potrà
mettere, quando le due ultime note del tremolo, ò di qual si voglia Passaggio saranno in una stessa corda". This is
in the context of text underlay- he has just advised against beginning a new syllable on the note immediately
after a passaggio or groppetto, and is applying the same principle to the "tremolo", which he then illustrates in
one short example as a *compound figure involving a syncopated repetition* of a passing note (I'll try and find an
image). Later he describes and illustrates it in a little more detail: "Il tremolo nondimeno, che non è altro, che un
tremar di voce sopra ad una stessa nota, ricerca, che le note vadino sempre per grado..." (The tremolo however,
which is nothing other than a trembling of the voice upon one single note, requires the notes always to move
stepwise...". He goes on, after repeating his advice not to change syllable too soon, to illustrate patterns of
stepwise notes with tremolo ornamental patterns added, which are similar to the earlier reference: a rising third
followed by a stepwise descent with the "tremolo" on the passing note, which is always a dotted note. The
rhythm of each pattern varies (a common theme in Bovicelli) but the melodic outline is the same. When the
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unornamented moving notes are minims, he indicates a "tremolo formato"; for faster notes he indicates a
tremolo "veloce, ma non formato". His final example explains "formato" as being with the syncopated pattern
(semiquaver-quaver) that he used in his very first example. So the two kinds of tremolo are (1) "formato"involving an audible syncopated rhythm and (2) "veloce" (quick) which could suggest a fast, unmeasured tone
repetition. Both kinds however are in the context of a very specific ornamental figure to be applied in particular
cases- stepwise movement. My reading of this is 2 versions of essentially the same ornament, one faster and less
measured than the other, the distinction necessitated by speed- but I'm open to alternatives!
Shaun Ng Could tremolos be kinds of trills if they are to move stepwise? Like how other sources mention
shakes and tremblements?
Oliver Webber Not in this case- the example makes it clear that the stepwise movement applies to the
underlying notes that are to be ornamented, his description indicates tone repetition, and the notated
example also shows tone repetition.
Oliver Webber "Sopra ad una stessa nota" is one key phrase- "upon one single note" (literally "one same
note")
Shaun Ng Out of curiosity, how does he notate tone repetition?
Oliver Webber With repeated notes- but admittedly only 2! I'll try and get an image or 2 later...
Oliver Webber You can see the examples on p 8 and 12 of the PDF here:
http://javanese.imslp.info/.../IMSLP96627-PMLP198697...
Tim Soar I think that the sounds of the instruments that in Monteverdi's time were considered most closely to
resemble the human voice, namely the viol, the recorder, and, perhaps most relevantly, the cornett, have
something to tell us about the desired vocal quality.
Eric Yeo I agree with you, Tim. I think it's no mere coincidence that leading cornettists who also direct ensembles,
like Bruce, Roland Wilson, Jean Tubéry and William Dongois, have a discerning ear for voices and in their choice
of singers - those who don't sing with incessant and wide vibrato, and know how use "vibrato" selectively for
embellishment.
Luke Green I will reiterate what I have said before, that vibrato as we know it is a cultivation of the natural
fluctuation inherently present in the human voice, similar to rapid eye movement or other involuntary actions. By
mastering vibrato (and that includes minimising it somewhat where necessary) a range of benefits not least vocal
longevity and stamina as a soloist in operas which require the singer to cut over a sizeable orchestra in a large
house; vocal agility including the ability to trill in the eighteenth century sense and engage the voice in rapid
coloratura; it is difficult to sing with vibrato with a poorly engaged voice, so it is a reminder to the singer that they
are singing on the wind and minimising throat engagement. But the emotional importance of vibrato is so very
important and relates to emotional states where the human voice wavers for various emotional reasons. The
unfortunate fellow you are all discussing in the Wagner from the Met on Radio 3 the other night (I didn't hear it
but will try to) was probably entirely daunted by the sheer size of the hall and the need to project. I have heard it
too many times before from there. It seems cruel to record there for broadcast purposes.
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Luke Green I would always say that regardless of historical documentation, singers in the real, modern world
have to sing a wider variety of repertoire, and for this reason will need to arrive at a technique that is healthy for
all sorts of repertoire; those who approach period style most closely are those of whom it might be said are
'stylish' singers.
Job Ter Haar "the real, modern world" - as opposed to other worlds that are less real? BTW I know singers who
sing in different styles using different techniques.
Oliver Webber Briefly, as I'm working- 2 quick points. 1. We don't need to create a false dichotomy, that singers
in the past either sung "with" or "without" vibrato. 2. If vibrato (in the modern sense) was as important for its
emotional content as you say, might we not expect to find more descriptions of it in the singing treatises around
1600 when the emergence of seconda Prattica involved heightened and highlighted emotional content? Note
that I'm trying to answer an earlier poster's question about what Monteverdi would have expected; what singers
should do today is related of course but a separate issue...
Richard Bethell We're seeing Eruption 3 [actually, Thread V9] of "vibrato wars" in as many weeks. Good. Keep it
going, as I'm learning a lot! On this occasion, people are focusing mainly on the late renaissance (from about
1575) and early baroque. While the sources for the period are few, sometimes confused and often badly written,
there is indeed evidence that some vibrato was used in Italy and Germany, although whether this is of the
dynamic (a sort of trillo) or the pitch variety is sometimes unclear. Personally, I would not favour any type of
vibrato in Monteverdi's prima prattica work, including the madrigals, as this confuses both texture and tuning;
but I'd allow it (certainly the trillo) selectively in seconda prattica solos.
However, as I pointed out in Eruption 2, Two things are apparent from the historical record between 1650 and
the late 1820s: (1) Vibrato disgusted most thesis writers from Tosi to Bacon, and (2) the best singers used straight
voice by default, with vibrato only used as an occasional ornament. Evidence to the contrary is extremely slender,
being limited to Wolfgang Mozart's famous remarks on his preference for natural vibrato over Meissner’s slow
dynamic vibrato and the mythical Cuzzoni warble.
Mike Bayliss And as yet we haven't even touched on 'flattement' or 'bebung', i.e. finger vibrato for instruments...!
Mike Bayliss BTW, I thought I would share this opinion that I came across a while back on a flute website - can't
remember which now, but I made a note of this at the time as it caught my attention, and I think is has a bearing
on our recent discussions: "Most [modern flute technique books] have little to say about vibrato, other than how
to develop it. This reflects a basic lack in modern musical pedagogy. Students are taught nothing about [vibrato
in] historical performance styles - because most of their teachers know nothing about the subject either." Just a
thought - I believe the author was referring to general flute tuition in conservatoires, not that for HIP specialists.
Richard Bethell Try:- "The Vibrato with particular consideration given to the situation of the Flutist,
Historical Development, New Physiological Discoveries, and Presentation of an Integrated Method of
Instruction, by Jochen Gärtner, May 1973, English Translation by Einar W. Anderson, 1981." I have a
photocopy of Part 1 (pp. 15-52) on "The Historical Development of the Vibrato; Theories of Vibrato".
Oliver Webber I think it would be constructive to keep the discussion on what singers did in a particular period
separate from that on what singers should do now. It would be really interesting to consider what Monteverdi
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and his contemporaries were likely to have thought about the matter by reviewing such evidence as there is
*without* reference to what singers today may have to do to sing many different periods of music, or to preserve
their voices, or to project over a symphony orchestra of 80 in a large hall. Those are all perfectly valid points to
make, and I'm not suggesting they should be ignored, but they don't tell us about history; when the history has
been examined dispassionately (and I've noticed on other threads that this seems to be a challenge), then
conclusions can be drawn and well-informed compromises (if necessary) made.
Bruce Dickey I agree, Oliver. Perhaps this brief extract from my chapter on 16th ornamentation in the Performers'
Guide to 16th Century [Renaisssance] Music, could be helpful. I think Zacconi, especially is important.
Tremolo, trillo and tremoletto
In the 16th century, the term tremolo was used indiscriminately for any kind of fluctuation which could be given
to a note. The fluctuation could be one of pitch (from a major third to tiny microtones), or of intensity. The kind
of fluctuation that was employed depended on the instrument being played and the musical context. Presumably
all of these devices were meant in some way to imitate the tremoli used by singers, but these are the most
difficult to understand with any precision.
Clearly, sometimes a vocal tremolo was a quivering or trembling of the voice similar to that described as desirable
in boys’ voices by Michael Praetorius. Zacconi presumably uses the word in this way in the following passage:
"[...] I say in addition that the tremolo--that is, the trembling voice--is the true door for entering into the passaggi
and for mastering the gorgie, because a ship sails more easily when it is already moving than when it is first set
into motion, and a jumper jumps better if before he jumps he takes a running start.
This tremolo must be brief and graceful, because the overwrought and the forced become tedious and wearying,
and it is of such a nature that in using it, one must always use it, so that its use becomes a habit, because that
continuous moving of the voice aids and readily propels the movement of the gorgie and admirably facilitates the
beginnings of passaggi. This movement about which I speak must not be without the proper speed, but lively and
sharp."
Thus, Zacconi seems to be described a kind of continuous “vibrato” which presumable aids in the passaggi by
keeping the larynx free and relaxed so that it can more easily produce the throat articulations required in the
gorgie. Perhaps this kind of tremolo is also what is meant by Zenobi when he speaks of the ondeggiamento, but
he lists it separately from the tremolo, so at least one of these devices must be a grace to be applied
discriminately.
Luke Green Thank you Bruce Dickey. This is in almost complete accord with our understanding of healthy
vocal technique. I think problems do occur for modern singers who, having recently had to sing Wagner,
have to readjust to a more intimate sound world. You might remember we worked together on an Orfeo:
was it Vienna or Munich? I assisted Ivor.
Luke Green And as with human beings generally, the rate and spin of the voice changes from person to
person.
Eric Yeo The discussion comments on this post are fantastic. George Kennaway, is it possible to somehow store
the discussion thread so that it can be found and accessed at any time in the future, long after this post has been
gradually relegated to past by newer posts? Unfortunately, such is nature of Facebook and it would be a shame
to lose this information.
George Kennaway I was thinking about this the other day - there [was] a very heated thread last year which was
extremely long and included an astonishing amount of source material, which the initiator of the thread (I
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assume) deleted. I'll have a go - it could be done crudely with a series of screenshots, but there must be a better
way. Mind you, I wonder if all contributors would have to agree? opinions welcomed!
George Kennaway Ah!!! *anyone* can save a thread. I never knew this - go to the beginning of the thread
- in this case Christopher Suckling's initial posting. click on the time stamp - in this case it says <23 January
at 20:59>. The whole thread then opens in a new window, with its own URL. You can save that as a
bookmark, or save the web page (right-click/'save as'). I wish I'd known this earlier.
Mike Bayliss Now that I've seen this, you can ignore my other comment!
Oliver Webber But would that work if the OP deleted it? I'm sure that's unlikely in this case but as we
know it can happen...
George Kennaway Hmm. That would be a problem. Save as you go, everyone.
Mike Bayliss Back to Plan B - see my other comment!
Oliver Webber Is this any help? It might as well be written in Swahili for all I can understand of it but
maybe someone else... https://www.quora.com/Is-there-an-easy-way-to-export-a...
Is there an easy way to export a Facebook comment thread into an…
quora.com
Eric Yeo I remember a brief FB discussion with Andrew Lawrence-King in the comments on one of his
posts. It was the same problem about saving valuable comments in a thread. I think he was going to save
it to his blog or website (IlCorago.com?).
il-corago
Il Corago
ilcorago.com
Mike Bayliss You could, somewhat tediously, if you had the time/ inclination, simply copy and paste all the
content end-to end into a Word document? At least the end result could then be edited/ formatted.
Richard Bethell That's exactly what I do. Eruptions 1, 2 and 3 of Vibrato Wars have produced valuable
content which I want to inspect from time to time. It doesn't take too long. First, you have to open out "X
replied Y replies" and all "See more" content. Second, you select the full content with the mouse. Third,
you Ctrl V it into a Word document. Then, as Mike says, you edit it to facilitate management. I see no
point in exporting predominantly textual information into Excel. Of course, the BIG question is, why
haven't Facebook invested a small fraction of their massive profits in a function to do this? A third party
could do it.
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Robert Rawson Why not organise a study day in London with papers and demonstrations? We might get an
edited book out of it?
Robert Rawson —(or in Canterbury if we need a venue…)
Mike Bayliss Would suit me!
Oliver Webber Good idea- though the advantage of online discussions is that many people might well have the
odd 15 mins to contribute ideas, share references/insights or debate conclusions - but might not have the time to
commit to attending a conference or giving a paper. Not that it's a bad idea - but personally I think these threads
are very fruitful too.
Robert Rawson Notions and practices of scholarly exchange need updating. We hold a conference/study
day for which we have online interaction as well. I'm not suggesting that this happen instead of these
threads, but rather in addition to them.
George Kennaway I for one would be very interested in such an event. Could a funding application be
made?
Robert Rawson Give me a few months and I'll be up for it. We might look at joint applications across a
few institutions. They like that kind of crap.
George Kennaway Don't they just! grin emoticon
Christopher Suckling We were having this very conversation at Guildhall yesterday and floating a few
ideas around. Keep me in the loop!
Robert Rawson Christopher, at some point I'd like to suggest the idea of an edited book on bass
instruments and basso continuo performance practice. If not sooner, let's chat about it in July.
Bruce Dickey I'm very much of Oliver's opinion. I am one who spends a lot of time thinking about these
issues, but professionally I spend my time playing music, not writing papers. I find these threads a nice
way to contribute to the discussion, but would find the idea of writing a paper or attending a conference
too distracting from my main activity as a musician.
Robert Rawson Bruce Dickey Exactly, that's why we could use some kind of creative interface that
captures, in various ways, the kinds of useful dialogues that happen on FB, but get lost if the thread
creator gets in itchy finger.
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Luke Green Robert Rawson do you know Elam Rotem and his invaluable work on basso continuo sources?
I believe the Profeti are due a visit to the UK soonish, am I correct, Elam?
George Kennaway Hmm. A study day with contributions tweeted or posted here that are integrated into
the discussion (a bit like Any Questions...)
Eric Yeo Robert Rawson, I'm sure you musicians and scholars find such FB groups a useful forum to
exchange views on all kinds of topics. As an enthusiast with no musical training, I'm learning a lot from
these threads! However, the challenge is how to preserve the threads and be able to find them again in
the future by some means of searching.
Bruce Dickey To get back to the subject matter, it seems to me that we are dealing, in the early 17th century, with
a continuum of tremolo effects, which goes from the quivering voice of Praetorius and presumably Zacconi on the
one end, to the articulated fluctuation, usually known as the trillo on the other. In between is a whole range of
rhythmical but non-articulated fluctuations usually called "tremoli" or "tremoletti". These can sometimes have
quite specific and complex rhythms - see R. Rognoni, F. Rognoni, Bovicelli, and others. It has never been clear to
me exactly how these effects were produced, but it is stated repeatedly that they were not articulated ("battuto
con la gola"). It does seem to me that a tremble in the voice which was anything close to what we think of as
vibrato, would have made these rhythmical tremoli impossible to produce, or inaudible to the listener.
Richard Bethell We at NEMA (National Early Music Association) are in the very early stages of planning a
conference in association with a UK university, as a follow-up to our successful 2009 event with the University of
York. This might address "the classical vocal soundscape from 1500 to 1950". Besides vibrato, it would have to
cover other important topics such as laryngeal development, dual register singing, vocal volume/ timbre, plus
(probably) style as well. But 2017 is the earliest possible date for this, so it would be good if progress can be made
with the excellent suggestions above. Meanwhile, I will publicise our plans in this group, when firmed up.
David Hansell 450 years? Is the conference a month long?!
Christopher Price Pontifex That raises an important point. The discussion (fascinating by the way) has restricted
itself to Monteverdi's time, but I think the greatest period for the modern uncertainty about vibrato is the late
17th to early 19th centuries. Is there source material additional to Tosi and that other one whose name I can't
recall at the moment for vibrato practices in the time of, say, Handel? As for the time of Mozart, judging from HIP
recordings and performances, one could be forgiven for thinking vocal style then was no different from today's
traditional opera house style. I hope that doesn't sound too polemical, but it appears the really heated
discussions are about 18th century vibrato.
Christopher Price Pontifex I wonder whether looking at a few examples of modern performances may assist in
describing what we mean in historical terms. For example, in this performance vibrato is always present, but not
as a constant of the voice production process. Could looking at such performances help our difficulties in
describing what we say earlier writers meant when they mentioned "tremolo", "tremoletto", "bebung",
"tremblement", "flattening" and the like? Apologies if this is really a distraction rather than a help, but I am not in
my element here! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xeEU4kQwC7U
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Aura soave - Luzzasco Luzzaschi
Aura soave - Luzzasco Luzzaschi (c. 1545–1607) Perrine Devillers, Sopran…
youtube.com
Christopher Price Pontifex Flattement, I mean. Damn this spelling corrector!
Oliver Webber For an unrelated reason I was recently reminded of this - note Bernhard's comments at point 7:
https://www.uco.edu/.../historical.../Bernhard%202.pdf
Christopher Suckling Yet another great resource...
Mike Bayliss Also, I think an important point in the context of the present discussion is this sentence in
the Preface to the text: "... modern singers, trained in an entirely different type of vocal production,
cannot simply switch back and forth but must, as pedagogues at least as early as Coclico said, be trained
in it [i.e. Baroque vocal technique] from earliest years; despite this, it is valuable to understand its
principles and conventions when addressing baroque music, for that music was created assuming them."
Oliver Webber Christopher I came there indirectly via this:
http://www.earlymusicsources.com/.../ornaments-and...
Ornaments and Diminutions - Early Music Sources
earlymusicsources.com
Oliver Webber Actually that's misleading - I found the above first but there was no link to the Bernhard so
(having failed to find the old article with a translation on JSTOR) I googled his name and the title of the
work - first on the list.
Christopher Suckling Oooo, that's really expanded since I last visited...
Oliver Webber Just returning to Christopher's original point about age of opinion forming: I was at a specialist
music school, and when we were about 11-13 every now and again we had to play in the junior school assembly.
This was for children aged 7-11, many (though not all) of whom were musically very able. The violin teaching at
Wells encouraged quite an obvious vibrato, a la Carl Flesch (Flesch-Rostal-Nieman was the lineage). One of my
friends who had a slightly more obvious vibrato than me (though nothing out of the ordinary by modern
standards) told me that when he started to play they burst out laughing because of the "wobbly sound".
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Oliver Webber Similarly my son (aged about 8 at the time) on hearing a wobbly soprano singing the national
anthem; the pitch and words were, ahem, a little hard to identify. His comment - "what's the point of singing if
you can't hear the words?" Just anecdotes but a reminder that the ear has to be trained to accept vibrato.
Christopher Price Pontifex I have often observed that children and adults who have never listened to
"Classical Music" (there are many such adults in Australia, especially in the legal profession in which I
live), on listening to opera for the first time recoil in horror at the harsh tone and wayward pitch of opera
singers. Most who actively dislike "Classical Music" cite opera singers as the exemplar of what is wrong
with it.
Eric Yeo That's my early experience listening to "classical music" and collecting records: I avoided vocal
works and opera until I discovered the HIP recordings which were an enjoyable revelation.
Eric Yeo To those who claim that vibrato (and they mean a wide and constant vibrato) is natural to the human
voice and singing, a simple test is to listen to a few recordings of traditional folk songs sung by opera singers. Kiri
Te Kanawa singing traditional English folk songs sounds so puffed up and unnatural to my ears.
Christopher Price Pontifex That is a good point, Eric.
Christopher Suckling I'm afraid it's more of a Chewbacca Defence.
Eric Yeo Isn't this Vibrato Wars, not Star Wars? Sorry to be facetious.
George Kennaway *Nothing* is natural. *Everything* is constructed. <hides>
Christopher Price Pontifex Everything is indeed constructed in art (that's why it is called "art"), but the point is
that in reconstructing the art of former times today it is important to follow the original's principles of
construction.
Martin Spaink Best quote yet: 'surely the voice has not changed?' (unlike all those instruments that got rebuilt or
modified all the time)
Bruce Dickey But if you think about all the different ways the human voice is used, and can be made to sound, in
all the world's cultures, you have to admit that those differences are far greater than any difference caused to
instruments by the modifications (addition of keys, etc.) that have been made over time. Truly nothing is natural it is all culture and artifice.
Eric Yeo How the voice is used has changed over time, even for the same repertory (comments [by Mark Bailey]
on Oliver Webber's post Vibrato Wars III, [in Thread V11]), with examples of Melba et al cited.
To throw in a wild left field parallel: have a look at cowboy movies made in the last fifty or sixty years. Notice the
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subtle differences in their outfits, haircuts (or lack of), etc and yet those movies made in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s
and so on are supposed to be set in the same period in 19th century Wild West.
Bruce Dickey To follow up my comment above, the other side of the coin is that there are singers who, with a
familiarity with culture (style) and a willingness to change, can complete modify the sound of their voices and
their use of vibrato to accommodate a different style altogether - think Thomas Quasthoff singing jazz or Anne
Sophie von Otter singing with Brad Mahldau or Elvis Costello. When Quasthoff sings jazz is it any less natural or
less healthy for his voice than when he sings Lieder? Culture and style. Pavarotti singing pop music is just
ignorance or disinterest in the culture.
Luke Green The use of the microphone either in performance or recording enables this style of singing.
Classically trained singers often refer to this style of singing as crooning and it is nigh inaudible over big
bands etc.
George Kennaway "The vibrato or tremolo is universally condemned, yet, strange to relate, nine vocalists out of
every ten persist in its use and abuse […] at our concerts recently (young lady vocalists especially) […] shake and
tremble in a pitiable manner, as though they were shivering with cold […] Our musical committees, before
making engagements with vocalists, in the future, should stipulate that they abstain from the use and abuse of
this senseless appendage." ‘A Provincial Critic’, ‘The Vibrato or Tremulo’, Musical Standard, 5 (1896), p.122. I'm
sorry, but lady vocalists abusing a senseless appendage....?
George Kennaway "Dear Miss X, The committee wishes to offer you the engagement which we have
discussed. But it is a condition of your acceptance that you undertake not to abuse your senseless
appendage. Yours faithfully, Mr Y." I want to see a letter like this!!
Mike Bayliss So long as they don't abuse MY senseless appendage! The mind boggles. (And possibly not
just the mind...)
Oliver Webber Similar sentiments 30 years later, from a Times reader.
Oliver Webber Below is what prompted a slightly exasperated post from me the other day. If you're in the UK,
have a listen to the soprano from about 32 mins. Surely something has gone wrong with our priorities in music if
people are forced to sing this way? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06xwckg#play
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Wagner's Tannhauser, From the Met, Opera on 3 - BBC Radio 3
bbc.co.uk
Richard Boothby I was driving home and turned R3 on to hear this. I don't actually know Tannhauser, so I didn't
recognise it as Wagner at first. I had to listen for about 5 minutes before I could positively determine that it was
being sung in German. I suppose I could identify one word in 10 once that had been established. (sigh)
Christopher Price Pontifex Maybe the issue with vibrato also relates to modern listening habits. I expect
that most people have a fairly large proportion of Romantic and later period music in their listening day
by day. This, in addition to being fed modern opera singers in supposedly HIP baroque and classical
period performances, must surely affect one's perception of (or ability to perceive) vibrato and its
degree.
Oliver Webber I was in the car with someone who knew the work. We had been enjoying the orchestral playing...
Oliver Webber Clearly, vibrato is learned parrot-fashion:
https://www.facebook.com/animalcognition/videos/438210236366758/
Parrot singing along with Pavarotti.
04:16
537,137 Views
Animal Cognition
29 September 2015 ·
Parrot sings along with Pavarotti.
Christopher Suckling I thought this was vibrato Parrott-fashion:
http://youtu.be/QQMush4SPiM
[I thought the following comments from my timeline were worth including here]
Richard Bethell What a beautiful, clever animal! No wonder his owner is deeply in love with him. He's croaking in
the same key as Pavarotti, almost in tune, and with the same timbre and vibrato.
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Eric Yeo That's no parrot. It's Pavarotti reincarnated!
Mike Bayliss Well, he is an anagram of I'v a parott !
Monteverdi - Vespro della Beata Vergine (excerpts)
youtube.com
Robert Rawson That is an ex…
Richard Boothby I've been trying to read all the posts, including replies, but there are too many. But one point perhaps it's been touched upon - seems to be worth making. Performance spaces in the 16th, 17th & 18th
centuries were very much smaller than today and the economics of music meant that performers were
performing to often no more than a handful of (very wealthy) people. Vocal projection becomes distorted when it
has to compete with large orchestras and project to large numbers of people in large halls.
Oliver Webber Here's a spanner for the works - why not use amplification in large venues?
Richard Boothby no reason I can think of. In fact next year, Fretwork will be playing in the Walt Disney Concert
Hall in LA, all 2,500 seats of it. And I think they have state-of-the-art amplification which is not perceptible as
such.
Oliver Webber It was used for Orfeo at the roundhouse last year
Christopher Suckling Considering the acoustics of historical theatres and their possible implications for
interpretation, this article is a wonderful starting point:
Barbieri, Patrizio. ‘The acoustics of Italian opera houses and auditoriums (ca. 1450–1900)’. Recercare, number X
(1998): 263–328.
(I found it particularly helpful when considering continuo practices in the first half of the eighteenth century, but
that's for another discussion)
Oliver Webber Thanks. Will look it up. He wrote a similarly exhaustive piece on Italian stringing covering roughly
the same period- he does a good line in detailed archival work.
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V10. Catherine O’Connor, launched 26 Jan 2016
Catherine O'Connor
26 January at 13:06
Hi everyone, I am currently working on an essay, in which I am discussing various approaches to vibrato in
Mozart's 'Et incarnatus est'. I am comparing the use of vibrato in the late 1700s, and that of the modern day, and
then regarding different views about modern-day performances of the work. Should one give an 'authentic'
performance, or use the vibrato style of the modern day?
I think this would start a good point of discussion, and it would really help me to get different people's ideas.
Could I start this discussion here? It would be of great interest to me, and help me so much with my studies.
Thanks
Robert Berger and 3 others like this.
Christopher Suckling Most of the threads from the last fortnight will give you a feeling for the strength of opinions
in this group!
Christopher Suckling I would just add that for your particular question 'should' is a dangerous word...
Mary Dibbern Singing without vibrato is bad for the voice. Period.
Robert Rawson Oof. Here we go again!
Christopher Suckling OP very carefully avoided asking 'vibrato or no vibrato'...
Mike Bayliss Someone has been well indoctrinated...
Kah-Ming Ng Since when did an anecdotal straw poll from an FB chat group enjoy any measure of validity
in an academic essay? I must've missed a crucial development in what may be deemed to be 'scholarly
rigour'. Back in my days, our bibliography was dripping with blood and ink spilt over this topic.
Robert Rawson To be fair, Mary might be talking about tumble driers.
Catherine O'Connor Thanks for your help.
Barry Pearce Shall I bring the popcorn? wink emoticon
Bruce Dickey I don't think there exists a "vibrato style of the modern day". There are singers with more and less
taste, more and less awareness of historical issues, more and less interest in these issues, and different
interpretations of these issues. I don't think, though, that anyone is advocating singing, and certainly not Mozart,
without vibrato.
Vinicius Kattah Catherine O'Connor I love your question and I think discussions are always good! I'll start bringing
a Mozart Letter into the discussion! It's NOT ME who is saying that... It's WOLFGANG MOZART, so here we go:
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Wolfgang to Leopold (12. June 1778) " Meissner hat wie sie wissen, die üble gewohnheit, daß er oft mit fleiss mir
der stime zittert – ganze viertl – ja oft gar achtl in aus=haltender Note marquirt – und das habe ich an ihm nie
leiden könen.
das ist auch wircklich abscheülich. das ist völlig ganz wieder die Natur zu singen. die Menschenstime zittert schon
selbst – aber so – in einem solchen grade, daß es schön ist – daß ist die Natur der stime. man macht ihrs auch
nicht allein auf den blas=instrumenten, sondern auch auf den geigen instrumenten nach – ja so gar auf den
Claviern – so bald man aber über die schrancken geht, so ist es nicht mehr schön – weil es wieder die Natur ist."
Vinicius Kattah
Vinicius Kattah "As you know, Meissner has the terrible habit that with purposeful effort his voice shakes [zittert],
marking off long notes in quarter and even eighth-intervals. I have never been able to abide this in him, and it is
also really abominable. It is completely contrary to Nature to sing like that. The human voice trembles without
help, but in such a manner and proportion that it is beautiful, that is the nature of the voice..."
Catherine O'Connor Thanks for that Vinicius, very useful information
Robert Crowe Yup. Daß ist sehr wohl die Natur der Stimme. Manche Stimmen. The more I research this, as it
happens to occasionally cross my own scholarly interests, the less I think there is a definitive answer, and the
more I think, like "good taste”, it's a bit of a chimerical beastie. Or, to paraphrase Justice John Harlan, re: a man
arrested for obscenity for wearing a t-shirt (in 1968) that said "F**k the Draft" (without the asterisks)...One man's
obscenity is another man's lyric.
A singer whose voice is an out of control tremolo to one listener, is a singer whose voice has a natural, pleasing
warble, vibrato, vibration, wavering, Bebung, etc., to the next listener. Neither is right or wrong, according to
knowledge spring forth from some sort of universal ur-truth. Singers are themselves the final arbiters of the best
management (portamento di voce) of their voices.
Embrace equanimity! That is a more difficult standpoint from which to write, naturally, but relativistic analyses
are not only appropriate, especially in the so-called 'new' musicology, they also tend to open up new avenues of
inquiry, rather than merely building rhetorical walls between otherwise well-meaning scholars.
Christopher Price Pontifex Vibrato Eruption IV?[Vibrato Wars, Thread V10] I look forward to some source
supported commentary on Mozartean vocal style.
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Richard Bethell Christopher Price Pontifex I supply a couple of pages down some sources on vibrato for the 2nd
half of the century. The context for Wolfgang's preference for natural vibrato suggests that he would have
favoured it for occasional expressive purposes, like his father. Additionally, there is strong evidence that
Wolfgang liked singers, by default, to use a natural, straight voice. For example, he praises Mlle Kaiser's "very
pure" voice (1777) and he admired Aloysia Weber's "lovely pure voice" (1778).
He has similar views on oboists. He noted Carl Besozzi's ability "to sustain his notes and his power to increase and
decrease their volume [albeit his mezza di voce was used too often], without introducing even the very slightest
quiver into his very pure tone."[28 May 1778] By contrast, consider his devastating critique of Johann Cristian
Fischer in a letter to Leopold: "Why, each ritornello lasts a quarter of an hour; and then our hero comes in, lifts up
one leaden foot after the other and stamps on the floor with each in turn. His tone is entirely nasal, and his held
notes like the tremulant on the organ. Would you ever have thought that his playing is like this? Yet it is nothing
but the truth, though a truth which I should only tell to you.” [4 April 1787]
Olivier B. Brault There is a common modern idea saying that we must stick to what the composers wanted to
hear. This, mixed with the idea that music evolution is progress (not having the feeling of progress is unbearable
to most minds). So, great minds of modern times had imposed their own view of what ancient composers
wanted. First, read about what Mozart thought about vibrato; second, consider the taste of your audience (a kind
of common culture that takes a balance of traditional comfort and the gentle shake of new ideas), and go halfway
if you want to « entertain ». If you want to adventure in the realm of meanings and rhetoric and effectiveness
according to the way the music is written and you use copies of original instruments and you hire good
specialists... you may be very surprised with deep happiness (or disgust, if you don't stand « some » intonation
problems sometimes...) smile emoticon
Vinicius Kattah Olivier B. Brault well written! I agree with almost everything... But "Idea that music
evolution is progress"... Not always...
Olivier B. Brault Vinicius Kattah , I base my whole career upon the research of earlier « stages » of
progress. I know the idea of progress exists and is essential to human hope, but I look at it with a critical
eye.
Leandro Nuber I feel that if u sing in the resonance and with the breath, it is very easy and it becomes a gentle,
supported, light singing without vibrato and much more healthier than singing with vibrato. In fact, many singers
who rely on amounts of vibrato to project their voice...are just using too much muscle and of course it is
impossible to sing without vibrato because singing without vibrato just needs breath, resonance and being gentle
with the instrument.
About Mozart...that is totally up to the singer...but still, in the voice treatise of the castrato Giusto Tenducci, great
friend of Mozart, he recommends that the most important thing is to keep "La voce ferma"....that means...no
vibrato...we are taking about 1785. So great singers still at that time were considered to avoid constant vibrato....
at least in some parts as ornamentation; not well trained singers or amateurs surely took vibrato far away...
So straight tone as bad for the voice... Nah....a bad technician is not able to achieve it.
Kate Brown Mozart specifically draws a distinction between a wobble and the natural 'Zittern' of the voice, which
is clearly not a description of a straight tone. Why do you think that 'La voce ferma' means a straight tone? It
means a constant, well-supported voice, which rules out breathy or wobbly tone, but does not rule out the
natural 'Zittern'.
Leandro Nuber I guide myself for the rules of the real Bel Canto line directly to Porpora and what was
considered good singing for the time and still by that time the standards given by the castrato school was
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not all this notion of vibrato we have now days. If I would consider adding vibrato to any of this pieces I
would consider hearing Mozart recordings from singers at the beginning of 20th century, and there I
would find something reminiscent from that time.
I would consider watching this video from the University of York, really interesting....vibrato was not so
accepted until 1840, in fact it was hated by the listeners.
https://www.york.ac.uk/music/conferences/nema/bethell/
4. Richard Bethell - Music, The University of York
york.ac.uk
Leandro Nuber Now, Mozart found nice the NATURAL trembling of the voice..not the heavier one. So
indeed, it has nothing to do with the kind of vibrato we have nowadays and if we wanted to add vibrato,
this vibrato should come out from a mixture. A narrow vibrato...which would come out in the developing
of long notes, which began with straight tone...meaning Messa di voce.
Olivier B. Brault The « vox humana » on 17th and 18th centuries organs is based on a light constant vibrato.
David Hansell I assume we're talking about the C minor mass. What I particularly loathe in this and similar music
is performances in which, sonically speaking, the instruments are on one planet and the voice is on another.
Leandro Nuber Totally agree.
Richard Bethell Vibrato in the 2nd half of the 18th century was rare and, typically, disapproved of. Assuming that
your main interest is in the historical evidence, I include below and in subsequent posts cases where ornamental/
expressive use was allowed.
First, Leopold Mozart's Violinschule: "The Tremolo [1] is an ornamentation which arises from Nature herself and
which can be used charmingly on a long note, not only by good instrumentalists but also by clever singers. Nature
herself is the instructress thereof. For if we strike a slack string or a bell sharply, we hear after the stroke a certain
wave-like undulation (ondeggiamento) of the struck note. And this trembling after-sound is called tremolo, also
tremulant. / Take pains to imitate this natural quivering on the violin, when the finger is pressed strongly down
on the string, and one makes a small movement with the whole hand; which however must not move sideways
but forwards toward the bridge and backwards toward the scroll....Now because the tremolo is not purely on one
note but sounds undulating, so would it be an error if every note were played with the tremolo. Performers there
are who tremble consistently on each note as if they had the palsy. The tremolo must only be used at places
where nature herself would produce it; namely as if the note taken were the striking of an open strong. For at the
close of a piece, or even at the end of a passage which closes with a long note, that last note would inevitably, if
struck for instance on a pianoforte, continue to hum for a considerable time afterwards. Therefore a closing note
or any other sustained note may be decorated with a tremolo [tremoleto]
Richard Bethell Bailey's Dictionary, 1763: "TREM’OLA (in Musick Books) signifies to tremble; a particular Grace in
Musick"
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Richard Bethell Anselm Bayly, Practical Treatise on Singing and Playing, 1771, P.64: "The manner of waving or
vibrating on a single tone with the voice, like as with the violin, especially on a semi-breve, minim, and a final
notes, hath often a good effect; but great care must be taken to do it discreetly and without any trembling."
However, this suggestion is, in part anyway, contradicted by the following on Page 52: "But of the eight shakes
mentioned by him [Tosi] only two seem necessary for the church; the moderately quick, proper for grave airs,
and the short, close shake, called mezzo trillo, or triletta for brisk and lively. / To continue the close shake, as
some do, is exceedingly absurd and offensive; a long shake should be the moderately quick or open, increased
into the close shake; which shews the artist and makes an agreeable variety."
Richard Bethell Mancini, Practical Reflections, Trans Foreman,1774, P.104: "In conclusion, a singer must possess
such a number of things, "an artistic variety", that when he goes to take a leading part, he may be able to succeed
in any style and character he may be called upon to represent. P.130. [such a voice will never be suitable for a
theatre, because in the scene it will need at the proper time the solidity, the spinning, the sudden decrescendo of
the voice...and then these should be united to brio, agility of the voice, vibrato [vibrare] detached notes
[distaccare], the drawing back [ritirare], strength, and appropriateness of expression, etc., in sum a perfect
complexity of such varied things." "
Bruce Dickey It is certainly true that tremolo was used as an expressive device only on selected notes until at least
the mid-19th century. In the case of the flute, the tremolo was often called the Bebung, as was to be done only
on one note per phrase, the one calling for the most passion. There are countless pages of examples from
composers of the first half of the century, with a sign indicating on which note the Bebung was to be done. BUT, I
have the impression that the kind of vocal tremolo described by Praetorius and Zacconi was an exception, and
was more or less continuous, though very subtle. I also have the feeling that instrumentalists, especially
transverse flutists and violinists were constantly experimenting with techniques that could allow them to more
easily imitate the singers and use more frequent tremoli ("vibrato"). There was a technique of rolling the flute
back and forth between the thumb and forefinger, which never took off, various fingered tremoli like the
flattement, and finally in the 19th century the breath caused Bebung. Francesco Rognoni says the true tremolo
on the violin is done with a second finger touching the string (not something that can be done constantly), but he
also admits than many players (erroneously in his opinion) make the tremolo with one finger moving it up and
down on the string like a modern vibrato. He disapproved strongly.
Richard Bethell Wolfgang’s letter to his father, 1778: "Meisner, as you know, has the bad habit of making his
voice tremble at times, turning a note that should be sustained into distinct crotchets, or even quavers—and this
I never could endure in him. And really it is a detestable habit and one which is quite contrary to nature. The
human voice trembles naturally—but in its own way—and only to such a degree that the effect is beautiful. Such
is the nature of the voice; and people imitate it not only on wind-instruments, but on stringed instruments too
and even on the clavier. But the moment the proper limit is overstepped, it is no longer beautiful—because it is
contrary to nature. It reminds me then of the organ when the bellows are puffing. Now Raaff never does this—in
fact, he cannot bear it."
Richard Bethell Hiller, Ed Suzanne Beicken, Treatise on Vocal Performance and Ornamentation, 1780, P. 99: “Now
a word about vibrato (Bebung), which arises when one does not permit a long sustained tone to sound firmly, but
rather allows it to fluctuate without changing the pitch. On string instruments it is done most easily by the
rocking back and forth of the finger which is placed on the string. It is more difficult for the singer if he simply
wants to bring it out with his throat; some make this easier for themselves by moving their lower jaw. Carestini
did this often and always with success.” [See Nicholas Clapton's interesting post in "Vibrato Wars " Thread V2]
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Richard Bethell Also from Hiller, 1780:- “The different types which must be taken into consideration are: the
whole and half-inverted mordent (Pralltriller), the mordent, the turn (Doppelschlag), and vibrato (Bebung). In
general, they merit close attention and much practice on the part of the singer, because without them the
melody becomes stiff; and a singer who does not know them at all cuts no better figure than a dancer who has
not learned how to move his arms. A trill reformed so fast that the second tone can hardly be heard, or cannot be
heard at all, is usually called tremolo or Bockstriller (goat’s trill). [Suzanne Beicken's footnote: Whereas Hiller
proceeds to describe the production of the Bockstriller without any particular bias, Tosi (Observations, trans. and
ed. John Ernest Galliard [London: J. Wilcox, 1743], p. 48; Baird, Introduction, pp. 120 ff. ) observes that this shake
“like the quivering of a goat makes one laugh”, while Quantz (On Playing the Flute, trans. and ed. Edward R. Reilly
[New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., Inc., 1975] pp. 101 – 102) altogether consider the Bockstriller a “defect”.]
Richard Bethell William Gardner, Music of Nature, 1788, P. 115: "The Tremando, or Tremolo, Is a quick reiteration
of the same note, to express a trembling sensation. This effect in the early writers was confined to the voice.
Purcell introduces it in the Frost Scene of King Arthur, upon the words ‘What power art thou?’ Bartleman gave
this passage with a tremulous motion of the voice, representing the shivering effects of cold. The same thing, as
applied by Handel in the oratorio of Joshua, to express the trembling nations, falls miserably short of what the
words import, and possesses more the ridiculous than the sublime. In the Chaos of the Creation, it admirably
represents a sudden convulsion, or shaking of the earth; and in another part of the same work, when softened
into a pianissimo, it reminds us of the buzz and whirl of insects. The voice has nearly surrendered this grace to the
instruments, as possessing greater power of expression; yet there are passages of intense feeling, in which the
tremolo adds greatly to the effect of the voice. In Purcell’s song of Mad Bess, at the words, ‘Cold and hungry am I
grown’, it may be used with great success; and who that has ever heard Braham in Jephtha’s Vow, can forget his
incomparable delivery of the words ‘horrid thought?’ We need no other instance of the power of the tremolo,
when so applied, to depict the workings of the soul"
Bruce Dickey Of course, there are tremoli of various kinds described on instruments back at least to the beginning
of the 16th century.
Richard Bethell Towards the end of the century, several comments were made suggesting that vibrato was mainly
the preserve of elderly divas. Here are two from Edgcumbe, Musical Reminiscences, 4th Ed., P.70: "She [Signora
Regina Mingotti] came over to England again with her pupil, and I once or twice heard the old lady sing with a
tremulous, but still strong voice, some of her most admired old songs. Her usual residence was Munich, where I
had also heard her, she having invited me to her house for that purpose, out of regard to my family, who had
been among the number of her friends and patrons here." and on Page 8: "at the age of about seventy,
[Catherine Rinni Galli] was induced to come forward to sing again at the oratorios [1797]. I had the curiosity to
go, and heard her sing "He was despised and rejected of men" in the Messiah. Of course her voice was cracked
and trembling, but it was easy to see her school was good; and it was pleasing to observe the kindness with which
she was received, and listened to ; and to mark the animation and delight with which she seemed to hear again
the music in which she had formerly been a distinguished performer"
Richard Bethell Concluding Advice. If you are really brave, and prepared to risk upsetting today's vocal hegemony,
sing Mozart with a default straight voice, but with the occasional very delicate vibrato. Finally, you could join
NEMA as a member and download my paper: "The Hegemony of Italian Vocal Sound through the Long Eighteenth
Century (1675 to 1829)".
Leandro Nuber Dear Professor Bethell, I found your paper very enlightening and very helpful to find an
approach to this kind of music that I love. Thank u!
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Mike Bayliss If i thought I really could "upset today's vocal hegemony", I'd probably do it every time!
However, I think they are wrapped up in their own little world and wouldn't notice.
Jeremy Montagu Surely the key is that until very recent times vibrato, tremolo, et al, were ornaments, not
constants, on instruments as well as voices.
Mike Bayliss Precisely.
David Tayler It's maybe also interesting to think about how vocal production would sound, for example, in a
period instrument ensemble playing in mean tone for Mozart. Part of the vibrato is the blend.
Like · 28 January at 08:05 · Edited
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V11. Oliver Webber, launched 27 Jan 2016
Oliver Webber
27 January at 08:11 · London
There's been a lot of discussion recently about how people might have sung (amongst other composers) Mozart
in the past; here's an interesting recording from the late 19th century. It's always interesting to supplement
written evidence and theories based on current vocal practice with actual examples of singing from previous
generations.
The earliest Mozart recording in the world – by a Danish baritone | Henrik Engelbrecht
The Danish bass baritone Peter Schram made his operatic debut at the Royal Opera in Copenhagen in 1841, two
years before Patti was even born, and he…
henrikengelbrecht.dk
Els Biesemans, Robert Berger, Daniel Grimwood and 69 others like this.
Comments
Anthony Robson Fascinating Olly, and remarkably consistent in the use of appoggiaturas, which seemed to totally
go out later and have only made it back in on an ad-hoc basis !
David Hansell Quite - there are several interesting 'antique' recordings on the CDs that come with the ABRSM
Performers Guides handbooks. I often wonder how grade exam candidates would get on if they played
Brahms/Bruch the way Joachim played it or even Rach the way he played it.
Anthony Robson This is a problem I face all the time teaching/coaching modern instrumentalists in early
repertoire, knowing that their teachers mostly inhabit a parallel world !
David Hansell With the greatest of possible respect to every teacher I've ever known, most of them just
each the instrument as it is now played with scarcely a reference to the fact that different repertoires
might require a different approach. To digress - what really annoys me (one of many things!) is the
suggestion in early grades that 'the ornaments are optional'. No they're not - they're part of the piece. If
they make the piece too difficult for the grade don't set it.
Jonathan Bellman I would say "to ornament" is not optional, but the ornaments might change.
Juan Drown Can I speculate that students in earlier centuries might not have ornamented until their
command of the instrument and familiarity with the style allowed them to do so convincingly? Perhaps it
is authentic for a child to leave out the ornaments?
Robert Rawson Picking up on Tony's comment: I've had those battles too. "Who the hell are you to tell my
student to play trills like that—you're not even an oboe player!"
Christopher Price Pontifex Fascinating recording. The performance seems quite unpolished, but that may be the
poor sound quality. Also, no vibrato! Or is that the poor sound quality too?
Mark Bailey Though the recording quality negates hearing the voice at the most nuanced level, the lack of
vibrato is quite common among singers who began their careers in the 19th century. As head of Yale's
Collection of Historical Sound Recordings, I hear plenty of singing in this manner. Nellie Melba, for
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instance, sings Puccini with less vibrato than many of our early music singers use with baroque ensembles
today.
Juan Drown I heard some vibrato
Christopher Price Pontifex Sorry, I should have said no heavy vibrato overall and some passages of no
vibrato at all. One gets into the habit of speaking in shorthand on topics such as vibrato.
Richard Bethell You can listen to Andrew Black (O Ruddier than the cherry) and Robert Watkin-Mills (Is
not his work like a fire?) on Spotify. They have very little vibrato. Helen Trix sings "I've Told His Missus All
About Him" in straight voice. You can find all these tracks in my playlist "Vibrato Lite Early 20C Voice".
Either type this in the search box or access it as my friend from Facebook.
Checking further, you can also hear Helen Trix and Dan W Quinn on YouTube. Both are vibrato-free. As
I've suggested elsewhere, vibrato singing had become the norm in concert and operatic singing by about
1880. Did older vocal practices persist in the music-hall? I need to look further into this.
Els Biesemans Talking and singing are one and the same in this recording! In today's singing practice there is this
huge gap. Instead of a declamation of the text's content, singers often just let their voice sound. With today's
volume of the orchestra or the Steinway it is hardly possible to create a natural and pleasant sound anyway.
Christopher Price Pontifex That's right. I hadn't realized.
Mark Bailey Many students of Mathilde Marchesi, such as Nellie Melba and Emma Calvé, tended to use much less
vibrato in general, and even less to none at all on high notes. This is how they were singing everything from
Mozart to Verdi to Wagner to Puccini at the turn of the century -- and we have numerous recordings of them as
well.
Job Ter Haar Exactly! Emma Eames is almost not vibrating at all on her recordings.
Oliver Webber Thank you Mark, that's very interesting. It does seem clear from this kind of evidence that,
whatever one's view on how one should sing today, many singers of the 19th and early 20th century did not feel
that a constant, strong vibrato was necessary either for their vocal health or for expressive purposes (for example
to add emotion to a high note). I heard some Wagner on radio 3 the other day and the soprano's vibrato was
truly shocking- wide and slow to the point where pitch and melody were unrecognisable. Whatever mitigating
circumstances there might have been for that performance, I find it hard to believe that Wagner or his
contemporaries would have found it praiseworthy. Purely from a listener's perspective (history and issues of
vocal training and technique aside) there must surely be another way! Are you able to post links to any of these
recordings?
Mark Bailey Interestingly, another famous turn of the century singer, Lilli Lehmann, had sung at Bayreuth
when it first opened, and apparently then complained many years later upon a subsequent visit about
how much the performance of Wagner's music had changed for the worse, including the singing -inferring that it has lost its lightness, clarity, and so on. In any case, here's Melba singing "Porgi amor" -as I recall, the recording is around 1903 or thereabouts. As we hear, the vibrato is comparatively mild and
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doesn't threaten pitch as much as the excessively wide vibratos we tend to hear more and more today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8WTC2Zaa1Q
Mark Bailey And another: Melba singing the role of Mimi from La Boheme, which she coached with
Puccini -- so it has his imprint on the performance. This is from 1904. Enjoy smile emoticon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT5R3mgaUWY
Addio di Mimi ("Donde lieta usci") from La…
youtube.com
Mark Bailey PS. Thanks for posting such a fascinating recording and interesting topic!
Oliver Webber Actually I can't take the credit - my friend Isabel Stoppani de Berrié first posted it. But
thank you for these fascinating recordings - the delicate high notes are particularly striking.
Shaun Ng I was exposed to many of these types of recordings while doing postgrad studies here in
Sydney. What I think would make a great research project is to record singers attempting this vocal
technique and record them using modern and old equipment to see if the sound from these old
recordings can be replicated. I suspect there are some discoveries to be made when we know how these
singers actually sound.
Christopher Price Pontifex Where does the vibrato is necessary for vocal health idea come from? Is it
research based or scientifically tested?
Els Biesemans Vibrato is fine AND historic. But forcing the voice or using vibrato as a standard way of
singing is not. The same applies to string instruments. Vibrato is a technique to increase expressiveness,
but if you do it all the time, it sounds hysterical instead of expressive. Think of how it sounds if you give
an accent on every word you say.
Els Biesemans Here is already a lot of vibrato, but not as a standard sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCrbs0OtmJ0
Emma Eames sings "Vissi d'arte" from Tosca. 1908
youtube.com
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Els Biesemans Of course the best source is Adelina Patti, who made a few recordings, and she was past
her prime, but you can still hear why everybody was crazy about her and took her as example, even string
players and pianists. Also notice at 1:50 or 3:47 her splendid trill as opposed to vibrato. And the
incomparable timbre of her voice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl02WT4KLvc
Casta diva - Adelina Patti, 1906
youtube.com
Alexander Skeaping HERE HERE!!! The outrageous wobble of most singers today makes so much vocal
performance into an offensive, unpleasant & outrageous caricature of good taste. :-(((
Christopher Price Pontifex Though Emma Eames applies her vibrato rather more persistently and it is a bit
wider than Melba's or Patti's, it did not have that exaggerated swooping quality to which Oliver referred.
Christopher Price Pontifex Els Biesemans , Adelina Patti's accuracy and agility is impressive, despite her
being obviously past her prime. It is clear, if singers like her were so admired in the mid- to 2nd half of the
19th century, that the pitch-altering, heavy (almost caricatured) vibrato of the modern opera singer is a
20th century invention.
Richard Bethell Alexander Skeaping Are you not from the well-known Skeaping family of string playing
musicians, brought up by a viol-playing father in a house aptly named Finding? I don't imagine that much
vibrating was going on there! I share your attitude. Could early conditioning be a factor? My mother, still
in her 20s, used to sing to me (aged 6) soppy songs from a child songbook, in her sweet, pure, clear voice,
accompanying herself on our new piano. Ever since, I have been constitutionally incapable of enjoying
vibratoists' singing. I even include Dame Emma Kirkby in this category, excellent singer and musician as
she is, and well worthy of the honour bestowed on her. I heard her sing in her original straight voice at
Clifford Bartlett's wedding when she started out, but regretted her later decision to adopt a slight vibrato
(only around a semitone wide from peak to trough), much narrower than the minor third wide wobble
affected by most opera singers.
Alexander Skeaping Well, my aversion to wobbly singers must have started at a VERY early stage,
because, before we moved to "Findings" in 1951 (when I was 7), my mother decided to start singing
lessons with Miss Cross, a large lady with an equally large vibrato. However, these lessons came to an
abrupt end after I (then aged about 5!) accosted this lady with the following statement: "Miss Cross, you
DO have a SILLY VOICE!!" Glad to say, she never darkened our doors again!
Sigurd Imsen This guy actually sings in Danish! What happened to the custom of performing translated operas?
Sigurd Imsen Also, he sounds a bit drunk.
Oliver Webber Alive and well at ENO...
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David Hansell And very reasonably priced!
Andrew Lawrence-King And in Moscow, where Cavalieri's "Anima & Corpo" has been running in
repertoire for almost four years, and Hidalgo's "Celos aun del aire matan" starts this year, both in
Russian!
Luke Green I actually think Melba is singing this sotto voce so as to balance with the piano. These wax cylinders
were prone to distortions because they were taken entirely acoustically. It is supposed to be sung softly, but the
effect in a theatre with an orchestra is very different. I also detect a light vibrato and frequent use of portato in
real legato singing.
Christopher Price Pontifex Light vibrato yes, but not the ungainly wobbling of many or unattractive
almost staccato shuddering of others usually applied relentlessly today in modern and period instrument
performances of baroque opera and related musical genres (though I accept that in HIP performances,
some such singers reduce their wide vibrato to merely a pronounced vibrato).
Luke Green When Caruso recorded they had to create an artificial barrier and place him in the next room to
record with orchestra. I should imagine singers had little idea to whom they were singing or how their singing
might be received or preserved for future generations to hear, and were often cautious about the whole process.
Job Ter Haar I don't believe that is accounting for all those recordings with little or no vibrato. Occam is
sharpening his razor again!
Massimiliano Di Mario Caruso was originally taught not to sing loudly in order not to ruin the voice although later
he disregarded these instructions. He was also representing a whole new style which is not the historic one.
Massimiliano Di Mario The old singers sing more like musical theatre singers did before microphones, I suppose.
Think about it: the singers that sell the most records like Crosby, Sinatra, Ella, B. Holiday right until our time do
not use the excessive (and in many people's opinion, annoying) vibrato used by classically-trained singers.
Massimiliano Di Mario Just another example of what happens when teachers and institutions become more
important than composers, free artists and the public.
Oliver Webber I commented recently on a related thread [V9] about how young children react to strong vibratowith laughter or disbelief. Just anecdotal evidence from a couple of cases, but it suggests that the ear has to be
trained to accept it. It would be interesting to study this (children's reactions) further.
Els Biesemans In workshops of Jesper Christensen comparing piano music played by Rosenthal or
Koczalski with the same pieces played by Arthur Rubinstein, Kissin or Lang Lang, you get exactly the same
reaction - from adults.
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Els Biesemans ... Because it sounds ridiculous.
Andrew Lawrence-King I remember that I hated vibrato as a child. Whereas now I have an open mind
about it wink emoticon
Christopher Price Pontifex Like many other (non-musical) vices, vibrato is habituating. The more used to it
you become, the less interesting it becomes and so you have to keep increasing it.
Els Biesemans ...'but it suggests that the ear has to be trained to accept it'. I think it shows above all that it sounds
ridiculous, and why should that be accepted? Yes, today's listeners accept it, but it could also be because of the
fact that there is no other option to hear classical music. It has become the standard interpretation. If you listen
to cd comparing programs on the radio, you often notice that the panels are just looking to some minor detail for
having something to say, because indeed the interpretations don't differ that much from each other. Take the A
flat major Etude of Chopin's Three nouvelles Etudes played by Rosenthal and by Koczalski. These are worlds of
difference! This freedom and courage unfortunately is lost...
Oliver Webber I don't mean to suggest that the ear *should* be trained to accept excessive vibrato smile
emoticon. Let's be careful though not to create a false dichotomy between vibrato and no vibrato- there are so
many types and so many ways to use it, ranging from subtle and occasional to constant and excessive.
Christopher Price Pontifex Exactly. Vibrato is common, even among the most faithful HIP singers, because
it is a readily available and very effective expressive tool; but it hinders expression (in Romantic and postRomantic opera also) when it ceases to be light and shimmering (Praetorius's "zittern" and "bebende"
voice, more a trembling than a shake) but is heavy and uniformly applied like a wash across the music.
Daniel Grimwood All the romantic pianists used the bel canto school as a model. I doubt we can know what it
sounded like and whether or not we should try to recapture it is a very big subject (we should!) but I am sure you
are right about singing and speech being chicken and egg. Vibrati vary a lot today. The recent Orpheus and
Eurydice at the ROH was sung in a manner that meant all pitches were discernible. However, Tosi's famous
treatise suggests that singers could actually pitch a C# and Db differently - any amount of vibrato would make this
impossible surely. I'm also reminded a bit of a row I had with someone about Sting's Dowland album - my
conclusion was that, however people sang, or pronounced English back then, I'm pretty sure it sounded nothing
like modern opera singers - who's to say he isn't closer?
Very interesting recording, thanks for sharing
Richard Bethell I agree with you on both points. I used to help Michael Morrow copy parts for the
following day's dress rehearsal, working into the small hours. He hated vibrato and tried to get his singers
to avoid it, but they refused. One of them, I have it on very good authority, complained in the pub that
"Michael wants us to sing like wogs". [No names, no pack drill, of course.] I asked Michael why he didn't
like it, and he referred me to Tosi's insistence (and other writers after him) on the singer distinguishing
between major and minor semitones.
Early music types tend to get a bit sniffy about Sting's Dowland. They say, for example, that he cuts short
long notes. To me, this is quite artistic, as he matches the swift decay of lute/ theorbo sound. Sting's
voice is somewhat veiled, and perhaps a bit worn, which is not surprising after 2+ decades of rock singing.
John Potter (see his excellent book "Tenor History of a Voice", P195), while praising Sting's speech-like
delivery, noted that his Dowland recordings "show unfortunate signs of having been coached by an 'early
music' specialist". But, what's wrong with taking good advice? Others censure Edin Karamazov's theorbo
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playing. I think he's competent, albeit there are occasional ugly klangs, which Dowland himself wouldn't
have perpetrated; but perhaps even this is OK along with "Jarring Sounds"! Nicholas Clapton dismissed
Sting out of hand in an earlier trail [Thread V4] without saying why. No, Sting clearly feels the music and I
totally approve of his work. Incidentally, he is the only singer included in both my Spotify playlists, viz.
Vibrato Free Classical singing and Vibrato Free Male Pop.
Oliver Webber That's a very good point about enharmonic differences. An earlier discussion focussed on
Monteverdi and his contemporaries and the same issue came up, but it's not unique to the early baroque and
treatises up to the 19th century (including Corri, for example) expect those distinctions to be made. Worth
remembering though that only an actual pitch fluctuation would obscure this- a wavering amplitude on a
constant note could allow it to be heard.
Juan Drown Another speculation - that a well-controlled and uniform pitch-vibrato could allow the ear to
perceive the mean pitch and therefore distinguish finer distinctions than the amplitude of the vibrato
itself?
Oliver Webber Yes...but why?
Juan Drown maybe 'cos I like a sound with vibrato AND I like to hear subtle distinctions in pitch - and I like
having my cake and eating it...
Daniel Grimwood Some of the singers must've been astonishingly accomplished. I suspect in the case of Mozart
that it sounded a lot better then!
Robert Rawson Oliver, note well that it is in chromatic passages where most treatises really forbid vibrato
(Tartini, Mozart, and, at least hinted at as early as Gaffurius).
Oliver Webber That's interesting Robert, and it would make sense; where does Mozart say this exactly? He tells
us where it *is* appropriate (final notes, pause before cadenzas) and that we shouldn't use it all the time, but I
can't find a reference to chromatic passages.
Robert Rawson Let me check when I'm back in my office. It's definitely in Tartini—and as Mozart's
adapted/nicked much of his treatise from Tartini, I may have jumped to conclusions.
Robert Rawson
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Robert Rawson The opening sentence is instructive in itself.
Sigurd Imsen This is not the vibrato in the modern sense. The "pressing of the finger" suggests that a
fluctuation in pitch is not part of this ornament. Shaking of arm or hand is not mentioned.
Besides, this is a treatise meant for the aspiring soloist. A tutti violinist would not be allowed to do this in
the orchestra.
Robert Rawson
Robert Rawson
Robert Rawson Tartini is discussing vibrato here along with other ornaments (apoggiaturas and trills).
Robert Rawson Sorry, to be clear, those passages are from Tartini.
Oliver Webber Ah thank you- I was looking in Mozart. He copies much of Tartini word for word- but apparently
not that part!
Job Ter Haar The question is: what does Tartini mean by "semitone intervals"? Sol Babitz translates this passage
as "in the semitones" by the way.
Oliver Webber What is the original Italian wording?
Sigurd Imsen Tartini's point is that semitone intervals (dissonances) must remain as clear as possible (in
pitch), not obscured by any kind of ornament.
Massimiliano Di Mario I am tired of MODERN classical music. It is a state-funded farce akin to the Olympics that
aims to indoctrinate etc.
Always remember that in the Olympics only three participants are voted as being valid by a jury..
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Massimiliano Di Mario Modern Classical... Quite a laugh
Oliver Webber Well, we're not really talking about modern classical music at the moment...
Massimiliano Di Mario Yes we are. We are talking about the abuse of music composed centuries ago.. If there was
a more educated, functionally literate, understanding of the music today we wouldn't be talking about excessive
vibrato etc. would we.
Oliver Webber It would be lovely if we could keep the discussion civil and relevant. If you read the comments
here I think you'll find a pretty educated, literate bunch, even if we don't always agree about everything.
Oliver Webber Also wondering how on earth state funding of music (such as it is) or the Olympics is going to
indoctrinate anyone, and if so with what, exactly?
Robert Rawson I have the Italian too, but I hear my pillow calling me!
Robert Rawson The original is French:
Robert Rawson
Oliver Webber Well, he first wrote it in Italian- it was translated into French later, at the time of publication. The
Italian is an earlier manuscript. However the point is pretty clear- if you vibrate you risk obscuring the purity of
intonation in passages involving semitones. Which makes very good sense, especially in a time where enharmonic
distinctions were expected.
Oliver Webber Ah- but the Italian MS (not in Tartini's hand but that of a student, G F Nicolai) says nothing about
semitones: he writes "questo modo è escluso affatto dalle *messe di voce*...". Make of that what you will! He
also describes the action of the tremolo as "imprimendo il tremore colla forza del polso, senza che il dito
abbandoni la corda, alzando però un poco il dito dalla corda." "Imparting the tremor with the strength of the
wrist, [and] without letting the finger leave the string, raising the finger nonetheless a little from the string". Not,
then, a forwards and backwards movement... A little rethinking required?
Oliver Webber (Why on earth have I never studied this before?!)
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Sigurd Imsen Gentlemen, if I may:
https://sigurdimsen.files.wordpress.com/.../the-tartini...
[The Tartini Style, An artistic survey of the violinist’s craft in the 18th century, Oslo 2015]
Job Ter Haar I think it makes much more sense now! I have always been wondering why Tartini wouldn't have
wanted vibrato on semitones. Why would he have been especially concerned with the intonation of semitones?
My impression is, given the written out rhythmical examples, that the vibrato he is writing about was quite slow.
If you do that on a long note with a swell, I can imagine that he would be concerned with intonation, which was a
big deal for Tartini. On the other hand, only a couple of decades later Viotti would be vibrating on messe di voce,
as described by Baillot. And he was probably not the only one.
Shaun Ng Now that we are getting further into the details, isn't it pretty clear that historical and modern vibrato
are not the same thing? The initial question of vibrato vs no vibrato in historical music is really a false dilemma.
How many historical writers even use the word 'vibrato'?
Christopher Price Pontifex As Bruce Dickey pointed out recently in this thread or the other one about vibrato
[Thread V9], the word only started being used in the 19th century and before then "tremolo" was the most
commonly employed expression in the sources. However, as I think is becoming clear, "tremolo" is not equivalent
to "vibrato". Moreover, the common modern English translation of Praetorius's "zittern" as "vibrato" is rather
dubious. Sally Sanford wrote interestingly about this in her essay on national singing styles in
http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt16gzcwn
A Performer's Guide to Seventeenth-Century Music on JSTOR
Revised and expanded, A Performer's Guide to Seventeenth Century Music is a comprehensive reference guide
for students and professional musicians. The book ...
jstor.org
Oliver Webber None at all- vibrato is first used in the 19th century as a couple of people pointed out. But terms
overlap and many early 20th century treatises use the word tremolo to describe what we would definitely call
vibrato. So we have to read the descriptions and pretty much ignore the names they are given.
Oliver Webber Job, actually I can well understand avoiding any kind of fluctuation on semitones, as especially
when distinctions between C sharp and D flat etc were expected; conversely, Geminiani associated the messa di
voce with an increasing and decreasing vibrato. So personally, I found Tartini's advice a surprise. A good lesson in
not putting your own expectations on early texts! Clearly a case of differing tastes, rather than what is "obvious".
Christopher Price Pontifex If what Tartini was describing as vibrato was an intensity fluctuation on an unchanging
note (which I would love to hear demonstrated) rather than a pulsing pitch fluctuation, why would he object to
vibrato on semitones? Is there another possible reason for his objection (if objection is the right word)?
Sigurd Imsen One trait of the galant style is that the dissonances are placed on the good beats, resolved
onto the following "bad" beat. Obscuring the dissonance with vibrato or other ornaments will weaken the
tension/relief- pattern which is so important in this musical style.
Oliver Webber Ok- but he *doesn't* prohibit vibrato on dissonances, he prohibits it on messe di voce.
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Sigurd Imsen Yes, he may have in mind that a dissonance frequently appears in the middle of the messa
di voce. That would be my guess.
This book is held in a written style that implies that it is a collection of notes from his lessons. They may
very well be written down by his students, and parts of the text appear to be taken out of a wider
context.
Oliver Webber That's certainly true- I was thinking that when I looked through it again the other day, for
the first time in a while; though the section on tremolo is one of the more extended and coherent
passages. It puzzles me because other writers *explicitly* advocate vibrato as a messa di voce grows; I
suppose perhaps sig. Nicolai misunderstood?
Christopher Price Pontifex Or was he talking about the pitch fluctuating vibrato when saying they should be
avoided on semitones?
Oliver Webber We've established that he wasn't talking about semitones at all- that was a mistranslation
in the later French edition...
Christopher Price Pontifex Oh, sorry. I must have missed that bit.
Oliver Webber Easily done! smile emoticon
Job Ter Haar Yes he is clearly talking about pitch vibrato.
Oliver Webber Really? It's not at all clear to me. He compares it first of all the ringing sound of
harpsichord strings, bells and open strings on good violins; he then describes the technique as a *raising
and lowering* of the finger - not a back and forth movement.
Oliver Webber (In any case, he definitely wasn't talking about semitones!)
Job Ter Haar But how would non-pitch vibrato alter the pitch?
Oliver Webber Well, it wouldn't! Read Tartini and see what you think- it is rather puzzling.
Oliver Webber I think one very important point to glean from all these discussions is that the kinds of vocal and
instrumental fluctuation described by 17th to 19th century writers are hugely varied and in many cases refer to
an ornament used on specific occasions; the occasional references to something which *may* be a continuous
wavering do not seem to describe a strong, obvious oscillation such as that heard in much (not all) modern
singing. There are reasons why a strong vibrato has developed in the modern operatic tradition, but they relate
to size and scale of buildings rather than musical taste per se, as the many objections to vibrato from the 19th
and early 20th century reveal. The fact that children often find this kind of vibrato laughable, and singers in other
traditions do not use it and indeed early recordings in the bel canto tradition use it much less or in some cases
not at all, gives the lie to the idea that a strong, continuous vibrato is natural or necessary. In my view the
problem with the stance taken by those defending the modern tradition is that it disregards what the listener
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wants to hear. Yes, it's fair enough to note that at the Met with a large orchestra a singer may be obliged to use a
very strong vibrato to project- but is that nice to listen to? And if not, why not consider a change? If Luke is right
that singers in early recordings changed their style in front of the microphone, why not use amplification more
often? What's a real shame to me is when you hear a style necessary for a huge building in a small chamber
situation- the priorities have become distorted, and the loser is the poor listener.
Luke Green They had to, Oliver Webber, or else the transferring by acoustic means would cause massive
distortion. The later electromagnetic process changed this dramatically I should imagine.
Oliver Webber Fine- but in my view the result is much, much more beautiful and expressive. So I'm
suggesting we should use amplification more often so that for singers sheer power is not the priority.
Luke Green Opera houses in which I have worked already have to use amplification of continuo
instruments to provide pitch and fold-back to the back of the stage for singers who otherwise would be
lost. I strongly disagree about singers using voci bianchi and using amplification for two or three very
important reasons...one, is that singers' overtones are all wrong and amplification picks up a very false
notion of their vocal quality, and furthermore, in opera houses designed to naturally amplify the voice,
the sonic boom is terrible; that the art of exceptional singing and acting on stage is that of using your
entire body for purposes of resonance and dramatic intensity...asking singers to use less of their voice
while running across the stage or dancing a minuet is at odds with each other, physically.
Luke Green Oliver Webber but to suggest that very early recordings give a just picture of what singing
was like prior to the early 20th century is misleading.
Oliver Webber And yet the end result of the obsession with power and using vibrato to achieve this is the
sort of thing heard at the Met the other day. (Don't know if you had a chance to hear it- if not, I posted a
link earlier, it starts in the soprano around 30 minutes in). How is this good for music? Something is
wrong when the audience does not come first.
Oliver Webber Luke Green nonetheless, I still find it more beautiful! In that case perhaps the problem
was just as great then.
Oliver Webber Sorry- in haste I misread you. I don't mean to suggest that singing was definitely like that
before the 20th century.
Oliver Webber What I mean is that this opens our minds and ears to the possibility that singing has not
always depended on a heavy vibrato. Since this chimes with what we read in early singing treatises,
anyone interested in historical performance will surely find it interesting to consider at least.
Luke Green Children find vibrato laughable because their rate of oscillation with a smaller instrument is
far quicker and imperceptible compared to the vocal folds of an adult, trained singer. They also find
adults kissing laughable in many instances but I doubt we shall eradicate this execrable practice from all
adult intercourse for the foreseeable future. Did you see Nicholas Clapton 's posting of Dr Jenevora
Williams's short paper? [Thread V4]
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Oliver Webber (Of course, no one *has* to be interested in historical performance, and if you *enjoy*
singing with a heavy vibrato, great! But this group is concerned with asking questions about the past,
hence the need to break away from what is considered a given by present standards)
Oliver Webber Luke but then what do you say to the many, many adults who don't like to hear a heavy
vibrato- not to mention those in the past who did not like it (see Richard Bethell's comments various, and
the letter to the Times from the 1920s for examples) Are we, or were they "wrong"?
Oliver Webber I've just read the Williams paper. It's an interesting summary, and it rather supports my
suggestion that the development of an excessively strong and wide vibrato has developed as a result of a
need to project in spaces and situations where a normal singing voice with a less audible fluctuation
won't do the job. In other words, it is not driven by a *musical* need at all. It was also interesting that
she cites a speech-like delivery as one reason why some non-classical forms don't use (audible) vibrato.
Given the absolute primacy of the text in the baroque period, surely this should be a consideration. Also
note that the natural vibrato she describes as inherent in any sung note is, according to her, not picked
up by the ear, which irons out the slight oscillation. So an *audible* vibrato is an artificial, rather than a
natural component, if she is right.
Luke Green I, like you, in my twenties, had an abhorrence of vibrato; and grand opera of the 19th century
seemed the very embodiment of several abuses that I considered to have poisoned musical practice. I
think this says more about me in my 20's than about those 'practices'. As I have worked with the human
voice almost constantly in the subsequent 20 years, I am astounded by the great variety and colour
possible in the human voice. It is impossible to codify or restrict its behaviour, and certain voices are
more suitable for certain repertoires than others. I am sad when an outstanding singer says, "oh no, I
ought not to sing Alessandro Scarlatti because my voice is wrong/too big for this repertoire", but there
were as many different types of voices singing for Scarlatti then as there are now. The rate of this natural
oscillation of the voice, which is cultivated in training, gives an indication as to how the singer is best
deployed in various roles. It is codified in the German "fach" system: some singers are light, some lyric,
some coloratura singers, comic/character "spiel" or "kavalier" or "soubrette", some dramatic, some
spinto etc. Some singers fall between the cracks (zwischenfach). This codification is seen in classical
Chinese opera as well, and is linked to the particular characters that the singers might play. Interestingly,
in another highly cultivated and parallel art form, a wide vibrato is used often. I cannot go further into
Chinese opera as I do not speak with any authority: but I do think that the application of folk or popular
singing styles such as Bulgarian open-throat singing, Swedish cow calling, Tibetan harmonic chanting, Bing
Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Adele and the like is limited and might not have very much to do with singing a
Josquin Mass either.
Luke Green Oliver Webber but we also have a problem whereby, in the 17th and 18th centuries,
composers were writing for bigger theatres and audiences, and increasingly singers were asked to sing
beyond the normal 'modal' range of speech to amplify and carry it. I have recently had to work closely
with two singers strapped with the thankless task of singing Morgana, Alcina's sister in Handel's opera,
where the arias are at an acceptable pitch but the recitative is consistently set high, making phonation for
the singer exceptionally difficult, even at a lower pitch (we were at 440, but experiments by transposition
made it no better). And these singers were both used to high coloratura or soubrette roles. One must
draw the line at risking vocal fatigue/damage and allowing the singer to sing with the natural release
mechanism of a natural vibrato.
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Oliver Webber With all due respect Luke you are rather sidestepping every point I try to make! Vast
quantities of evidence show that singers did not always use vibrato the way it is used in large opera
houses today. Is it not at the very least interesting to think about this? Essentially what you seem to be
saying is that anyone who doesn't enjoy the heavy vibrato common (though not universal) today
essentially has an immature understanding of vocal music. Could you not accept that other musicians
simply have different taste to yours? What do you think about the Williams paper's statement that the
natural vibrato inherent in a voice is usually inaudible, for example?
Oliver Webber Just a reminder that I'm not advocating *no* vibrato- just that we take a step back from
the excesses such as those heard at the Met last week, which are clearly nothing to do with music and a
lot to do with other factors (size of building, orchestra), which have create something which is unmusical
and impossible to understand. I'm also not suggesting that every modern singer suffers from these
excesses- that's patently not true. But when this very wide, heavy vibrato is justified as either
"necessary", "natural" or "expressive" I do think the perspective has become skewed and that the
listener's experience (surely paramount?) has been forgotten.
Luke Green Oliver Webber I think to be entirely honest, that it is a matter of taste formed by our own
observations, knowledge and experience. Choral singing obviously has had, and continues to have a big
impact on people's understanding of their own voice and of others' voices as children and as adults;
fashion for vibrante singing throughout the ages has clearly had its advocates and detractors. I have had
interesting conversations about the effects of training, trauma, and the endocrine system had upon the
development of the castrato voice; I must say that the in-your-face blast of full-tilt verismo opera is
shocking for many and is an emotional place where many people choose not to go.
Luke Green Oliver Webber I am afraid that taste and personal choice, when discussing technique, has
little play in the matter. Whereas violinists may change bows, stringing, hold, construction of the
instrument and so forth to render a more faithful performance of older music, we must proceed with
somewhat more caution with the voice. I reiterate that in the past, life expectancy was less, and singers
had even shorter careers; their voices were formed by violent means; some were trained nearly as
composers whereas others because of their gender were considered only a little better than a canary. We
simply do not know what singing was like prior to recordings, and although it is interesting to learn a little
from the descriptions and observations of the past, they do not paint a complete picture of what was
really happening.
Oliver Webber I still think you are conflating two things which I think should be kept separate: what may
have been done in the past, and what should or can be done today. Of course the picture is incomplete
without a time machine, but there is a lot of information in texts and descriptions and I can't think of any
reason not to read it closely and learn from it. If you disregard evidence because it is incomplete or
because you don't like what it suggests, that is bad history (and this is a historical group!). Naturally it will
not have all the answers, but it may make us question our assumptions, especially where they are based
on today's practices and aesthetic norms. When it comes to performing this music today, I understand
that there are other considerations and I can see that compromise might be necessary in some cases, but
to suggest that taste and personal choice must be disregarded is to relegate the reason for any
performance at all - to entertain or move the audience - to the sidelines, and that can't be right. If the
audience is not "allowed" to prefer one style of singing over another, then we have got it all wrong!
Luke Green As to writers on musical subjects: many had axes to grind. Tosi is a case in point. A fairly
successful singer in his own right, but more suited to, and perhaps only formed physically for the da
camera older style of singing, instead he became a teacher and arbiter of taste in both Vienna and
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London. In his Observations he rails against the abuses of the modern style of singing and the lack of
musical education that seemed to him to be the root of musical evils. He has an agenda to promote
himself for posterity as a great teacher. His most famous scholar was Anastasia Robinson who, having
sung as a soprano, suffered some sort of drop in her voice in her twenties which was suggested to be
caused by an illness, and thereafter was a lower mezzo, who was at her best as a "pathetic" singer. She
gave up the stage soon after. Not such a good earner for Tosi then, who would have garnered the
earnings from a successful student.
Luke Green An audience and indeed instrumentalists can be improved by seeking out the very best of
singing as Emmanuel Bach advocates in his Versuch...
Oliver Webber I can assure you that I have always sought out the very best of singing smile emoticon
Luke Green Homosexuality is an abomination in the Bible and punishable by death, but modern practice
is to let Love be love in all its many forms.
Oliver Webber Erm...and?
Luke Green We ought not to be too slavish in our following of writings of the past or we may be led up
garden paths that have unpleasant repercussions.
Luke Green I must get on with the day. Good Day!
Oliver Webber If you're suggesting that means that what we do today is always better, then we shouldn't
be engaged in historical performance practice at all. No one has to be - if you prefer modern instruments,
singing styles, etc, that's fine. But bear in mind the purpose of this group. If evidence from the past is
rejected because it doesn't follow what some people believe to be best practice today, we will never
learn anything about the past. As I said, what you choose to do with that information is up to you.
Luke Green No, not at all. I am saying we should tread carefully with people's bodies.
Oliver Webber Right- which is why I keep saying we should study the history dispassionately (i.e., *not*
imposing 21st century values or assumptions) and then make compromises if necessary when it comes to
making decisions about current performance of old music. Mind you I'm not sure that yelling your lungs
out at an indeterminate pitch in a huge building does anything for the singers' body either... Did you hear
the Flagstad recording by the way? I can't remember which thread I posted on. [It was V13, which
overlaps this one: V11]
Luke Green One of the big problems with Wagner as I see it was that his orchestral writing and practice,
theatre design, text and singing practice was in constant development and enlargement throughout his
career, encouraging singers to find new reserves of stamina and power. Many of the singers whose
careers led to Wagner were not trained in the first instance to sing his music and generally were lighter
singers (by all accounts) than those who might be cast today in the same roles. This demand for bigger,
more powerful voices is nowhere seen more than in the development of the Heldentenor. I am a little
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hazy on the history but I think one of Wagner's earliest tenors had trained as a baritone [Jean de
Reszké?]. We now have singers and a performance tradition arisen from over 100 years of performing
Wagner, and the trend to produce voices of great power in production continues. I also said earlier that
the Lincoln Center at the Met (somewhere I have never been or performed) is monstrous huge, and is a
famously perilous place for singers to attempt to oversing. Nicholas Clapton also rightly notes that there
are singers whose vibrato instantly shows serious vocal flaws or problems.
Luke Green As I have heard from early music singers who pitch constantly sharp to the orchestra because
they are pushing the sound and 'lifting' in order to lighten their sounds to create the disembodiment that
makes them sound agile or refined in expression.
Richard Bethell A very interesting debate between Luke Green and Oliver Webber. Luke, although you
had the last word, I must side with Oliver here. He rather let you off the hook, as I don't think he pointed
out that your justification for not paying much attention to Tosi was rather weak, as you just discussed
trivia, without contesting substantive issues raised by his treatise. Also, subsequent treatises agreed
100% with Tosi, on almost every point, as was acknowledged by Burney. The best (albeit voluminous) of
these was Richard Alexander Bacon, who certainly would agree with me that the NATURAL voice is the
way forward for early music, not today's MADE voice, with continuous vibrato, laryngeal development,
and shrieking on high notes in chest voice. So we certainly DO know what singing was like before
recordings.
It's true that large spaces may have encouraged vibrato production. But why not perform in small spaces,
with CDs/Spotify/Apple as back-up? I am not suggesting that we should replace the current hegemony
with a historically informed one. In my paper following the University of York conference, I argued for an
alternative paradigm, pleading for some historically informed singing by 2015. Indeed, this may be
happening. I posted earlier Miriam Feuersinger's beautiful interpretation of Graupner's cantatas. Klaus
Miehling loved it. Nicholas Clapton had strong reservations. Each to his own. Let diversity rule, not
hegemonies. This would be economically healthy too, giving singers more options, without forcing them
into the "one size fits all" route.
Oliver Webber Funnily enough I started writing a post suggesting that the Tosi argument was weak, and
in any case hardly justified ignoring the countless others who wrote in a similar vein, but decided to move
on smile emoticon.
Oliver Webber (Also worth noting that it is in the nature of Facebook threads for the concept of "the last
word" to be rather fluid)
Shaun Ng An opera singer recently told me that amplification is frowned upon because it highlights a
singer's inability to project. And I've heard quite a few non opera singers say this, that a large part of
being an opera singer is simply wanting to be loud.
Luke Green Tosi's Observations also mention the close shake that he says is nothing but a waver. He says
it's neither here nor there if the singer doesn't use it, but it's not the vehement dislike of the tremulo he
mentions earlier. This former ornament seems akin to the close shake that Geminiani shows a fondness
for in his Treatise on Good Taste, and which he exhorts the player to use wherever possible. A sort of
enflé de son as on the viol, taking the pitch higher than written. We must remember that Geminiani was
the singing master of a few singers too, of whom Celia Young was one (in fact was she not the first
Morgana in Handel's Alcina?)
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Luke Green I don't think I am overly dismissive of Tosi's treatise, but I simply wish to show that it is rather
conservative in its outlook for the 1720's. His little comments about modern composers crowding arias
with fiddles is, by 1720's, a lost cause and in fact had been for thirty or more years in his own country. By
the 1720's composers were asking singers to do more and more instrumental styled vocal colorature
following the brilliant style of Pistocchi. Tosi hearkens back to a golden age of almost monody.
Luke Green His success as a teacher was also limited and so his methods which he doesn't go into
elaborate detail (as say, Bacilly does with the correct accentuation and pronunciation of the French
language) is glossed over.
Luke Green Shaun Ng it is also sometimes thrust upon singers who are placed in awkward situations in
modern productions where they simply cannot project their voices normally. Then you have real
problems with balancing and the best way for the singer to project their voice other than in the way they
are accustomed.
Oliver Webber Geminiani of course was contemporary with L Mozart who as I'm sure you know has an
almost opposite view, advocating a slow vibrato (see his illustrations in quavers or semiquavers) on
occasional long notes and final notes only, and ridiculing those who use it all the time.
Oliver Webber In fact L Mozart's thoughts on the matter are almost copied word for word from Tartini,
who describes a tremolo based on a *raising and lowering* of the finger on the string imitating the
resonance of an open string on a good violin- in other words, not a pitch variation at all. Mozart however
differs from Tartini in that his finger movement is forwards and backwards. In short. there were, even
among string players living in the same decade, very different approaches.
Luke Green Geminiani was an interesting case in point for having also trained singers, which given Tosi's
asking for a violinist to show singers the niceties of enharmonic differences which were particularly
marked in unequal or just temperament, makes for an interesting idea.
Shaun Ng Oliver Webber I wonder how you would technically make sense of Geminiani's vibrato. To me it
seems like the 'wiggling' of the wrist is changing the position the finger. But I haven't quite figured out the
neutral position of the wrist, and whether you are meant to wiggle outwards or inwards to change the
sound.
Oliver Webber Not sure I understand- forwards and backwards, surely?
Richard Bethell Luke Green , you mention the "close shake that he says is nothing but a waver". I assume
you are using the Galliard edition. Perhaps I've overlooked it, but would you mind giving me the
reference, either the page number from the 1968 facsimile, or the chapter and paragraph number? Or
the actual quotation?
Eric Yeo That's a neat summary and inferences from the discussions, Oliver.
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Christopher Price Pontifex There are many instances on recordings of singers close to a microphone in a small
venue singing at relatively low volume with a sharp, choppy pronounced vibrato. There is a recording coming out
soon like that which has been referred to in FB.
Christopher Price Pontifex More annoying are those sopranos and altos who can sing a whole string of straight
notes with no or some thoughtfully applied occasional light vibrato and then bung on the heavy vibrato for the
rest of the phrase and especially the final long note of the phrase. Veronique Gens is a classic example of this:
lovely voice with wonderful control that suddenly devolves into a sloppy and counter-expressive exaggerated
vibrato. Is there any discussion in the sources about applying more vibrato to final notes, such a common
technique today?
Oliver Webber Well actually final notes are often singled out as appropriate places for vibrato - e.g. L Mozart. But
the kind of vibrato he describes is rather different from the sort commonly used today- slower for a start.
Daniel Grimwood Quite some years ago I played the old Joanna for an opera course (not a thing I'd like to
repeat!) and all of the singing teachers explained that vibrato is a necessary part of vocal technique. My point was
that if I can't hear what pitch is being sung then it is worthless. Some young women were covering a minor third surely this must be a technical issue - and not being corrected by their teachers. I think singers often listen to and
for different things. Maybe aesthetic varies according to profession?
Mike Bayliss Having heard quite a few allegedly professional (operatic) singers over the years rehearsing
and singing with local groups, I came to the conclusion long ago that too many of them (a) cannot sightsing music because they are unable to hear the pitch accurately in their head, (b) use wide vibrato to
disguise the fact they have only a vague idea of what the note should be. Or at least, that is the strong
impression that they conveyed.
Christopher Price Pontifex There is a YouTube video I recall from a few years ago with a small girl of about 8 or 9
singing Amarilli (with modern piano accompaniment) and trying to put on a heavy vibrato as she had obviously
been told to do. She got nothing but praise in the comments despite her great difficulty maintaining a steady
vibrato and pitch.
Nicholas Clapton ... that's really bad pedagogy!
Christopher Price Pontifex Getting back to the topic, Sally Sanford, writing some years ago on national singing
styles in 17th century music (A Performer's Guide to Seventeenth Century Music, OUP), maintained that equating
Zacconi's tremolo with pitch-fluctuating vibrato contradicts the nature of throat-articulation technique (singing
trilli and gruppi). She said that singing throat articulation and continuous vibrato simultaneously put the vocal
mechanisms required for each into "laryngeal conflict" (p.6). She also commented that, as vocal style developed
in Italian music into a more cantabile style during the 17th century, singers were expected to have extremely fine
pitch control in the context of unequal temperaments, which a modern style pitch-fluctuating vibrato would
make impossible (p. 12).
Mike Bayliss A point I think has been made earlier in one of these threads, but nonetheless very true.
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Bruce Dickey This "laryngeal conflict" would only take place if the singer continued the tremolo after he
began the throat articulated passaggi. I assume one gives way to the other. Otherwise I cannot see what
meaning can be given to Zacconi's tremolo.
Christopher Price Pontifex Singers who sing with a lot of vibrato in baroque music also tend to be rather sloppy
with the actual notes of the music, sliding on and off pitch constantly, swallowing some notes completely. prime
examples are Cecilia Bartoli and her falsetto epigone Franco Fagioli. If you actually listen to them carefully, they
are often off pitch, cannot sing a trill and fudge the virtuosic noodle bits, while the shaking from their wide
vibrato gives a false impression of agility especially in the florid passages. And because of the vibrato, their whole
expressive mode is relentlessly over coloured (only two settings: furious and maudlin) but paradoxically lacks the
passionate engagement with text and drama described of proponents of the variants of the new baroque style
that arose from its late 16th century inception to the late eighteenth century.
Robert Berger Gosh . I really like Bartoli . She's a highly communicative and imaginative singer , authentic
or not .
Christopher Price Pontifex I agree that she is a very colourful singer, regardless of my deploring her
combining period instrument baroque orchestras with her complete disregard for HIP vocal and dramatic
style.
Nicholas Clapton What do you think of this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP_WvRwnWSg
Al ampo dell'armi-Jennifer Larmore
youtube.com
Nicholas Clapton ... and this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagcPYOjPFM
THE 5 COUNTERTENORS |…
youtube.com
Like · 9 February at 21:44
Nicholas Clapton or this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IBiwDiVew
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Ann Hallenberg - Son qual nave che agitata -…
youtube.com
Christopher Price Pontifex Jennifer Larmore's tone is very weird - rather Mother Earth and too heavy.
Many of her runs are just heavy vibrato fudging the notes and sometimes wandering out of tune. Her
usual sound has less vibrato than the other two below, but it is still too much and distracting. The
counter-tenor Yuriy Mynenko I have not heard before. Why does he want to sound like a middle-aged
woman? Far too much and too unvaried vibrato. Anne Hallenberg is a disaster. Her voice is completely
unsuited to the music and the constant vibrato is so hugely wide that she is barely in tune most of the
time - if you took the average between the upper and lower pitches of her vibrato on each note, you
would get the right note and I suppose that is what gives the illusion she is actually singing the written
notes. However it is not just the vibrato that is problematic, it is the whole use of the voice, from the too
heavily braced and unnatural/non-speaking tone, misplaced fortes, etc ... the whole style of delivery. It
seems out of place with the music. All three are like watching muscle-builders perform gymnastics: the
ability to perform the moves might be there, but the effortless agility and grace of the real gymnast is
missing.
Like · · 10 February
Christopher Price Pontifex You are very provocative, Nicholas!
Like · 10 February
Christopher Price Pontifex This is a recording of very different music made quite some years ago, but it
shows how, even with quite a bit of vibrato, a singer genuinely interested in historical style can produce a
performance that matches the aesthetic of the music: https://youtu.be/p-efiqs_e-Y
Cessés mortels de soupirer - Pierre Guédron (1570 --…
youtube.com
Like · 10 February
Christopher Price Pontifex Part of the success is owing to the ability to vary the vibrato for expression
rather than simply to bulk out the voice.
Like · 10 February
Eric Yeo This is a stark contrast with Anne Hallenberg even if Julia Lezhneva does use a fair bit of vibrato.
http://youtu.be/tsneraStokY
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R. Broschi, Son Qual nave ch'agitat'
youtube.com
Like · 10 February
Christopher Price Pontifex The strong vibrato and obvious effort to thicken the vocal tone are
disappointing, but the performance still leaves Hallenberg for dead.
Nicholas Clapton Christopher Price Pontifex: I completely disagree with all of your comments. We are so
far apart on this ... By the way, I also think Lezhneva is brilliant in this aria - she is ANOTHER very fine
singer.
Christopher Price Pontifex But how do you reconcile your preference with the historical sources? Or do
you take the view that they are not evidence of anything?
Nicholas Clapton I am a professional singer, a counter-tenor. I have been singing, teaching, and listening
to a huge amount of repertoire for over thirty years, and, quite frankly, I know what I like. A vibrant,
engaged, emotionally committed performance is what I look for and love to hear, in any repertoire, from
any period. The historical sources are, to some extent, evidence of what was liked at that time, but we
have lived another two-and-a-half centuries since then, tastes have changed, and, in the end, I cannot
force myself not to like what I like, because of what Bénigne de Bacilly or Leopold Mozart said centuries
ago. If you think that Ann Hallenberg, widely acknowledged to be one of the finest singers of this
repertoire presently performing, is "a disaster", my opinion is that you are talking complete rubbish. Your
remarks about Yuriy Minenko sounding "like a middle-aged woman" are equally misplaced, in my
opinion, but it is only that, my opinion. Similarly, my experience tells me that Miss Lezhneva is not making
an "obvious effort to thicken the vocal tone" - she just has a fantastic, virtuoso technique. I performed
with Nigel Rogers on a number of occasions: he is a very intelligent singer, a fine artist, and a supreme
master of the Italian "ribattuta di gola" and similar techniques. He liked my singing partly because I didn't
sound like your average white-voiced, half-dead Anglican counter-tenor. You see, I find it impossible not
to become emotionally engaged in this discussion, so perhaps we should end this here. If you thought I
was being provocative earlier, you might like to know that I am really "holding myself in" at the moment,
since I do not wish to be offensive.
Oliver Webber I can't help noticing a problem I've pointed out before: people are conflating personal
preference with historical study, and getting upset as a result. It shouldn't be this way. No one is (or
should be) expecting anyone else to like something they simply don't like- that's a pointless exercise! But
in this group (let's not forget the name of the group!) we are interested in finding out about how people
played and sang in the past- whatever has happened in the intervening 250 years! Just as with
instrumental performance we have tried to use every scrap of information to piece together a sound
world that would have been familiar to Monteverdi, or Purcell, or whoever it may be, so for singing we
are trying to do the same thing.
No one *has* to follow this path- it's not to everyone's taste and there's no need for it to be- but if you
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do, while you're trying to learn, you need to set aside, temporarily, personal taste and the aesthetic
judgements of today, so that you can read Bacilly or Tosi or whoever without seething with rage because
your own tastes conflict with what you read.
Nicholas Clapton I am not in the least upset about any of this discussion. I can likewise assure you I don't
seethe with rage when I read Tosi. I often use him as a useful source, especially when talking about the
trill, which is something many singers today are singularly incapable of performing, be they "HIP
specialists" with or without habitual use of vibrato, or any other kind of singer. "Historical study" may
confound my personal taste, but won't change it. As the possessor of a voice-type now regarded by
researchers as barely existing in most of the repertoire we have been performing for the last half-century
I am more-or-less ahistorical in any case, so probably don't "belong" here, any more than I do anywhere
else (and that is most definitely not a cry for help, I am just getting profoundly bored with this whole
thing). Somewhere else in the many threads of this discussion someone said that it was a shame that noone from the none/less/judicious vibrato "school of singers" was taking part. I wonder why not. I have
had enough.
Oliver Webber Well, I was just responding to this, for example: "If you thought I was being provocative
earlier, you might like to know that I am really "holding myself in" at the moment, since I do not wish to
be offensive." which did rather suggest that you were a bit cross... I was also remembering your comment
elsewhere (after complaining about people using "evidence") that singing without vibrato made you feel
physically and psychologically ill! Anyway the point of the discussion is *not* to change anyone's taste,
but to *learn* about the past, which it's perfectly possible to do without liking what went on then.
Equally I don't think it's helpful for those who prefer a less vibrato-laden performance to use insulting (or
at least heavily loaded) language about performances they don't like. There is actually some fantastic
information in these threads if we could just filter out the personal comments!
Shaun Ng I reread some of Bacilly's L'art de bien chanter and was reminded that vibrato isn't a requisite of
beautiful singing. Instead, Bacilly talks about having a good cadence, not too fast and not too slow. Some modern
writers have unfortunately translated cadence as vibrato, but Bacilly is quite clear in explaining the cadence, with
its upper auxiliary (modern term) and all. Let us not forget how important this source is: Bacilly worked very
closely with Michel Lambert, who was a singer in Louis XIV's court and Lully's father-in-law.
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V12. Christopher Wilke, launched 28 Jan 2016
Christopher Wilke
28 January at 18:59
A rock guitarist friend of mine sent me this humorous video and I thought of the apparently ever-continuing
debate about vibrato in early music. It might serve as a reminder that there is no such thing as a simple "vibrato
or not" debate; different types of vibrato are suitable for different styles depending on context. (Note that even
this guy demonstrates "no vibrato" as a type!) ...and out of technical necessity, guitarists may only use vibrato
ornamentally.
Types of Vibrato
What kind of vibrato do you have? Follow me on Instagram: http://instagram.com/musiciswin Follow me on
Facebook: http://facebook.com/musiciswin Check out my ...
m.youtube.com
Ján Janovčík and 5 others like this.
Comments
Neil Coleman How can you not want vibrato after hearing that? Strange how my Clavichordist colleagues eschew
bebung when it was described around 1600 as an imitation of the organ's vox humana stop, and it can help some
of the mostly poor instruments now available come to life. When I demonstrate bebung, most people are
surprised and say it sounds like an electric guitar. You'd need a good Clavichord to get the variety of vibrato
demonstrated here. By the bye, when Mozart is talking about vocal vibrato he names various instruments that
are capable of it; "Clavier" is the term he uses for "Clavichord" in this case.
Taylor DiClemente I wonder if Mozart's bebung was as dramatic as Austrian zither bebung. I wouldn't be
surprised if it was.
Mike Bayliss I would humbly submit (as an ex-organist) that the vox humana stop needs to be used rather
sparingly, and in the right context. I do agree, though, that a good vibrato can make a clavichord sound like an
electric guitar - now just add the pick up, the sound system, the fuzz box, and you may have something
commercial there. (sighs.)
Neil Coleman It would be instructive to know what an Italian vox humana stop sounded like c.1600.
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V13. Nicholas Clapton, launched 28 Jan 2016
Nicholas Clapton
28 January at 20:58
Subsequent to the long discussion about vibrato that has been taking place here recently, I was in contact with
Jenevora Williams (an old friend), who, not herself being a member of this group, has asked me to post the
following link to an article she has written on the same subject:
www.jenevorawilliams.com
jenevorawilliams.com
Shaun Ng and 7 others like this.
Comments
Robert Hollingworth Thanks Nick. I was interested to watch Jenevora's video about vibrato and am glad to have
her more in-depth thoughts here. Food for thought.
Nicholas Clapton She is one very bright lady ...
George Kennaway I've just invited her.
Like · 1 · 28 January at 22:02
Nicholas Clapton smile emoticon
Like · 28 January at 22:23
Luke Green Utterly common sense.
Job Ter Haar We should definitely educate those poor Bulgarian folk singers. They are doing it all wrong!
Grant Colburn I guess I now know why I'm not into 19th century opera wink emoticon (though of course the
music has something to do with it as well)
John Moraitis And yet 19th-century singers used very minimal vibrato in 19th-century repertory ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JCP_yktpo4
Adelina Patti ~ Ah Non Credea Mirarti ~ La Sonnambula ~…
youtube.com
Bob Mitchell ...ow!! she's got a swoop like a Junkers 87. I have heard "choral swooping" from a fairly exhausted
soprano section trying to sing music that was pitched too high for them, but the people who did it were told that
repeat performance means firing-squad. Meanwhile, I LIKE Italian opera of the Bellini/Donizetti variety. Never
mind the singing, a lot of it sounds like the Brazilian Himno Nacional and it "does what it says on the tin"...it's
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entertainment. Sadly in the 21st century we seem to have lost the art of entertainment without the blasted moral
message that usually accompanies it.
Luke Green I think they are good too. I just don't want to hear Bulgarian open-throat mountain singing in a
Handel aria, thank you.
Job Ter Haar Well, it would at least be interesting. I would buy a ticket. But the point is not that they are
good; the point is that they exist at all. They have a way of non-vibrato singing that produces a large
volume and that doesn't seem to be particularly unhealthy. According to what you and Jenevora are
saying, that should not be possible.
Oliver Webber That is the point, really. Some people are saying that it is *impossible* to sing without
vibrato, but clearly that's not true - whatever you actually prefer.
Oliver Webber What about Adelina Patti singing a Handel aria, say?
John Moraitis The earliest repertory Patti sang, as far as I know, is Mozart. So, for what it is worth, here it
is smile emoticon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKC7ygaHrso
Adelina Patti Mozart Le Nozze di Figaro Voi che…
youtube.com
Paul Poletti This is pseudo-scientific nonsense!! It is demonstrably false that "all sung sounds have vibrato". I
don't know if this woman is just ignorant, or simply confused in her use of terminology. In the discipline of
Acoustics, it is generally acknowledged that the voice can exhibit two entirely different kinds of instability:
Vibrato and Flutter. Vibrato is a regular, PERIODIC fluctuation of pitch, usually around +/- 1/4 tone (but can be
more), with by-products of minor fluctuation in timbre and intensity. Flutter is a much more subtle RANDOM
instability in pitch, due to the inability of the entire human control and muscular apparatuses to function with
absolute stability. ALL sung sounds exhibit Flutter, whereas Vibrato is either consciously introduced or the
product of a certain vocal training.
This is little more than yet another attempt to justify a Western cultural preference by claiming it is "natural".
This woman seems to be unaware of the many non-Western singing traditions in which laser-straight tone is the
norm (usually traditions in which pure intervals are used), such as Indian Dhrupad, or Arabic, or Persian, or
Sardinian/Corsican, Tuvan overtone, etc etc etc. Objective analysis using modern software will demonstrate
beyond any doubt that these singers DO NOT use anything which could be called "vibrato", unless they
consciously choose to do so.
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Oliver Webber Though note that she begins by saying the natural vibrato inherent in conflicting muscular
contractions is inaudible.
George Kennaway Ahem - can I gently remind everyone here of my post pinned to the top of this page, and point
out that I have already invited Jenevora Williams to join this group. Disagreement is absolutely fine, but toujours
la politesse, please.
Nicholas Clapton Thank you for that, George ...
Paul Poletti I'm sorry if I sound a bit severe, but I am so tired of these Western trained singers and their "vibrato is
natural" meme. It is simply objectively false. If she does truly understand the dynamics of the singing voice, then
she needs to be much more careful with her use of terminology. Vibrato by definition is NOT inaudible. She
literally says, "All sung sounds have vibrato. Periodic variations are a fact of the way in which these muscles
work." Does she understand what the word "periodic" means in relation to sound? It means "at regularly
reoccurring intervals"; acousticians speak of periodic and non-periodic sounds. She is confusing Vibrato which is
periodic/audible with Flutter which is non-periodic/inaudible, although a careful listener can often detect Flutter,
and in fact, it is the presence or absence of Flutter not Vibrato which causes people to judge a synthesized voice
as either being natural or artificial sounding. Furthermore, she goes on to contrast children's voice which do not
have vibrato with adult voices which do. She plainly states, "vibrato is a natural artifact of vocal production in the
mature adult voice." This is simply objectively false. As I said, she seems completely unaware of the many many
many non-Western traditions in which the NORMAL vocal production FOR ADULTS is without vibrato. All this stuff
about nerve interactions and muscle behavior is simply after-the-fact cherry-picking to justify the foregone
conclusion.
Nicholas Clapton So what does cause vibrato? Is it something "learned in", "added on", why do some people love
it, and some loathe it? I have been singing as one of those "Western trained singers" for about thirty years, and
can stop and start pitch and intensity vibrato in my voice at will, but with vibrancy in my voice everything I sing is
easier, both technically and musically. Is this purely subjective? How do we know that in those traditions in which
vibrato is not a part of vocal production that that is not more a matter of aesthetics and tradition than of
physiology, in other words conscious suppression of "natural" vibrancy? By the way, I don't think a lot of voice
scientists would agree with you in your comments about nerve interactions and muscle behaviour, though the
field still struggles to find totally cogent explanations for the vibrato phenomenon.
Robert Hollingworth 1) I don't have the scientific knowledge to talk about whether all sounds have some sort of
pitch fluctuation in them or not but what we're surely talking about here is 'perceived' pitch fluctuations. So if I
want to sing my part straight in a Tallis motet I can do so and it will be perceived to be so.
2) This weekend I am running a CPD course on Renaissance music at the University of York and the subject of
vibrato will surely be raised. Whereas as some issues (clefs, modes, some details of some performing pitches) can
be discussed with some sort of understanding, vibrato, as some of you have pointed out, gets very little
discussion at that time. Oliver talks about some late 16th century sources which are interesting though mostly to
do with solo singing (I think). So I go back to the score and ask myself how the music is best served. I am horribly
aware that this is a contemporary judgement and wildly open to accusations of taste. But I have to trust what my
ears tell me that this music, when unaccompanied by instruments, speaks most clearly acoustically if both
consonances and dissonances begin with no perceptible pitch vibration. As soon as that sound has registered on
the ear, though, I find that vibrato can pleasantly colour the note. The latter is of course a subjective taste but the
former is not. As back up to this, I have just posted a Fagiolini sound clip of a Monteverdi madrigal which (at least
at some points) aims to do this. http://www.ifagiolini.com/chedarpiu/ [NB. Source Not Found]
3) Portamento. John Potter (apologies if I mis-remember this in some way) has a really uncomfortable point
about portamento.[See A History of Singing by John Potter and Neil Sorrell, from Page 94] It's mostly out of
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fashion in solo singing now - in any classical genre. Has been since 2nd world war. Yet we know from recordings
(such as the Patti one above) that it was in fashion in her time, and singing books back as far as the 17th century
talk about it. So the fact it is considered tasteless by many now (see comments above) in baroque performances
is as much to do with modern taste as anything historical.
MonteverdiChiDarPiu – I Fagiolini [NB. Source Not Found]
ifagiolini.com
Mhairi Lawson Examples of vocal portamento are given in Corri s treatise [The Singers Preceptor]
published in 1809 - Haydn songs.
Mhairi Lawson Depending on how it's executed, it can add expressivity.
Jean-Jacques Herbin In Dieppo's trombone method in mid XIXe too.... and Arban, etc....
Oliver Webber Thanks Robert, very interesting perspective. I think the point about perception at the start and
end of the note is important. And yes, I think Bovicelli and Caccini at least we're talking about solo singing
primarily- not sure about some of the later ones that came up like F Rognoni and Bernhard. Will need to read
more closely.
Bruce Dickey Zacconi, with his description of the tremolo as constant motion in the voice, is certainly talking
about ensemble singing as well as solo singing, since he speaks at great length about the requirements of singing
"in compagnia". Also Zenobi, with his mention of the ondeggiamento, is clearly concerned with ensemble singing.
Mhairi Lawson Okay peeps, I'm going to pitch in here with some immediate thoughts - can someone find a
recording of Kirsten Flagstad singing Wagner? From what I remember she had a well - focused voice without wide
vibrato. No- one yet has brought up the subject of vocal resonance: the bits of the singer's own physical makeup,
aside from the vocal folds (which on their own merely buzz, I'm told) which gives the voice its own quality. And
the "fila di voce" which is the pure core of the voice - when the placement of this is correct has no vibrato, at
least in my own experimentation. Great thread, by the way!
Oliver Webber http://youtu.be/o1t1sbXIA40
Kirsten Flagstad: Wagner - Tannhäuser, 'Dich, teure Halle'
youtube.com
Oliver Webber What a blissful contrast with the recording from the Met last week!
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Anthony Robson Amen to that Olly !
Mhairi Lawson Isn't she fab! On train just now but will listen to all of it this evening. The vibrato is varied
but I suspect that would be unconscious and as a result of whatever emotion/affect she wanted to
express.
Anthony Robson Which is how it should be.
Nicholas Clapton Quite so! By the way, this, to my ear, for my taste, and in my opinion, is the epitome of
a "good" vibrato. There are so many "movements" in a voice that can mimic this, but which are evidence
of technical problems (with Wagner, it can so often be that the singer thinks they have to "sing big" to
sing Wagner - if you have a "big" voice you don't need to, it'll just come out "big"; or that the singers
chosen for the roles just don't have the necessary size of instrument, and wobble because of forcing a
"fake big" sound). Also, as a teacher I have never asked, and never would ask a student to "add vibrato",
like putting another lump of sugar in their tea. That it can, and often does, "arrive" of its own volition
during training is an interesting phenomenon.
Like · 2 · 29 January at 14:10 · Edited
Paul Poletti Nicholas Clapton, as to whether or not non-vibrato is the default state or acquired for the adult voice,
I think there are several factors which argue strongly for the former. First, as Williams herself says, children
usually do not exhibit vibrato. Secondly, I have a fairly broad though by no means exhaustive experience with
ethno recordings from all over the world, both recent and historical (i.e. going back to the efforts of the first
ethnomusicologists who lugged wire recorders and such into the field) including singing from many native
peoples (what we used to call “primitive”), and I do not recall a single example where vibrato is inherent in the
vocal production. That alone speaks volumes. I am quite confident that if you were to do an extensive survey of
music world-wide at this moment in time, you would find that the use of constant vibrato is essentially confined
to the Western “art music” tradition. Please do correct me if you have evidence to the contrary.
Unlike· · 4 · 29 January at 13:33
Nicholas Clapton I don't, it was only a suggestion. The link between vibrato to the "Western operatic"
tradition and techniques of breathing used within that tradition is, however, something that I believe
would bear further examination.
Luke Green Chinese Opera as it survived post-Cultural Revolution does seem to differentiate between
heightened speech (and Mandarin being a tonal language, has its parallels in recitative), and sung, lyric
passages which we might find parallels with aria/arioso. A very fast vibrato is used in these lyrical
passages but not at all in the heightened speech sections. Most practitioners of eighteenth century opera
today would rarely use vibrato in recitative unless a) it contained an arioso passage or b) the reciting
tessitura was much higher than the modal range of the singer, in which case occasional vibrato allows for
a certain freedom in an otherwise unusually high pitch at which to phonate.
Luke Green In Indian classical music the basic tonal production is a naturally produced, unforced head
voice, which Tosi remarks is the most agile part of the voice. The rapid ornamentation in song is based on
the raga tradition which includes microtonal intervals, which occasionally to Western ears can be thought
similar to a wide vibrato. This goes back to my earlier comments, however: that vibrato is a cultivation of
smaller naturally occurring and involuntary cycles in the human voice, rather similar to rapid eye
movements or breathing behaviour. When cultivated, it allows for greater movement in the voice, with
coloratura etc. This is hinted at in the enormous treatise that Bruce Dickey quoted elsewhere: is it
Zacconi?
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Paul Poletti I think there are two causes for the use of vibrato in the Western primarily-operatic tradition: (1) it
makes the sound bigger and fuller by replacing a tone with a tonal blur, i.e. a cluster of frequencies rather than a
frequency; (2) since vibrato destroys the ability to objectively verify accurate tuning (i.e. since there is no one
pitch, one cannot speak of correct pitch), it masks the ugliness of equal-tempered thirds and sixths.
Grant Colburn I think one still has to figure that there are those who simply find vibratos beautiful since
most modern instruments seem to want to add it into the quality of their sound as well. Me? I like some
rather than none, but there's definitely a line which can easily be crossed, especially in early music...
Martin Spaink I would say that the techniques used in recent conservatory training aim at masking clear
enunciation of harmonics, just as string players are wont to do with finger- or wrist vibrato, as the
harmonics are not wanted to stick out. In many other traditions of singing, particularly in modal
traditions, all this messing up is simply not necessary, and very much undesirable, as clear pitches and
intervallic relations are part and parcel of everything that makes it artistic. Clear natural harmonics have
to go once intervals are tempered.
Jenevora Williams Perhaps I need to say something in response to all this fascinating discussion. My article is
mostly based on evidence from other people's research, some of which is referenced at the end of the text. The
only part that is my opinion concerns the behaviour of children's voices. I am currently working with Professor
David Howard, investigating the links between tuning and vibrato in a cappella choral singing. It's quite possible
we may discover something new and extend the existing body of research on this topic. If anyone knows of
recent published peer-reviewed research that I may not have seen, or that contradicts the information I have
included in my article, I'd be very grateful for references.
Paul Poletti Jenevora Williams, just go listen yourself to as much non-Western traditional singing as you can find.
It's pretty simple these days with YouTube and all. Try this, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm3V1cwnPY
Tenore Supramonte Orgosolo
2° trailer del documentario Supramonte. Sonetto di Remundu Piras, Risposta a…
youtube.com
Grant Colburn Let us not forget the muezzins who called entire Muslim cities to prayer a capella from a
roof top for over 1400 years...
Paul Poletti Or this. Pay particular attention to the solo bits starting around 2:30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zn3gpG8crI
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Shiva Shiva, Raag Adana, Gundecha Brothers, Dhrupad
youtube.com
Paul Poletti Or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHHMeh8s_DE
Traditional Aboriginal singing in Numbulwar, Australia
youtube.com
Grant Colburn Merely to "devil's advocate," the point could be made whether some of these voices could
be heard in a 1000 seat opera house over a 100 piece orchestra. Still that doesn't mean that the western
technique to naturally amplify the voice necessitates the existence of a vibrato.
Paul Poletti Of course they couldn't. That is an artificial environment, and the vocal technique has been
perfected to meet the acoustic and aesthetic demands of that situation. That said, however, if you have
ever heard a live performance of Arabic, Persian, Corsican/Sardinian, Tuvan (the list goes on and on)
music, these voices are often quite penetrating and carry well.
Grant Colburn Paul Poletti Yes, that's what I was going to say as well. Some of these vocal styles are
FILLED with overtones much like bagpipes (and even distorted electric guitars) which may make them
unsuitable to choral singing but also makes the sound project very well..
Like 1 · 29 January at 14:50
John Moraitis And let's not forget that less than 200 years ago, 1000-seat opera houses and 100-piece
orchestras (especially with modern instruments) did not exist even in Western society. So projecting
above an orchestra of Wagnerian proportions and a large hall (also of Wagnerian proportions smile
emoticon ) was not necessary.
Paul Poletti Grant Colburn, you're right that many ethnic styles of vocal production are exceedingly
bright. This is especially true in traditions where very fine distinctions of tuning are essential, such as
Arabic Maqamat and Indian classical Shruti. This, along with non-vibrato, makes perfect sense, since
without a rich tone, precise tuning is impossible.
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Paul Poletti Jenevora Williams, I suggest you get your head out of academia, i.e. "other people's research", and
simply experience reality. Open your mind and your ears and you will discover on your own that your theories
simply do not withstand the test of taking all of humanity into consideration. This is a problem which plagues
much of modern psychoacoustic and musical acoustic research, it is largely Euro-centric.
Luke Green I might hasten to add that much of this research into non-Western Classical Music
Performance Traditions was carried out by early music pioneers, and have not been disregarded per se. It
is simply very difficult to find any interface between the complex artistic construction of a Josquin Mass,
for instance, the complexity of the method by which it was performed (using parts, notated in a mix of
white note and neumatic notations) with a pitch system of solemnisation, in complex rituals, with nonEuropean music of great tradition, but nevertheless orally transmitted and derived from somewhat
simpler tonal (although not necessarily rhythmic) resources. When I compare the socio-historic construct
of Western Opera with the Chinese Opera, I do so with respect for what are both long artistic traditions
(as opposed to ancient orally transmitted histories and narratives as in the Dreaming in Australian
Aboriginal Song), with complex musical languages and associated performance traditions.
Ján Janovčík Since you mentioned Josquin mass, I couldn't resist a small shameless plug here:
http://praecentor.bandcamp.com/.../missa-de-venerabili......
Performed entirely from facsimile, singers standing around a lectern with the choirbook, most singers are
trained in and trying to habitually use the medieval solmization.
And most importantly the singers are not afraid to experiment with the possibilities of their voices...
Missa de Venerabili Sacramento, by Cantores Sancti Gregorii
Save
praecentor.bandcamp.com
Luke Green I shall listen later...
Paul Poletti Or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpl-cTkrO1s
Black Umfolosi 5 sing "Shosholoza" at the Royal Oak,…
youtube.com
Like · y · 29 January at 14:45
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Paul Poletti Jenevora Williams, I might also suggest you download MADDE, a very nice little singing voice
synthesizer made by the Speech, Music and Hearing department of the Royal Swedish Technical University, which
works beautifully for teaching about formants and vowels. Unfortunately it only runs under Windows. Take a look
at the control panel which is shown in this link; notice that there are separate controls for Vibrato and Flutter. I
strongly suggest you play with these in order to learn the difference between the two. You can turn Vibrato
completely off by entering 0 for the value in any of the relevant fields.
http://www.tolvan.com/index.php?page=/madde/madde.php
Tolvan Data
Note: This software is actual freeware, with no ads, time limits, spyware or anything like that. If you want…
tolvan.com
Luke Green This is terribly clever but does not help a singer to come to terms with how to physically
generate this sort of sound. Well, except they should be able to, normally.
George Kennaway Sorry, but this discussion is heading in a direction that I think borders on this...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansplaining
Mansplaining - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mansplaining is a portmanteau of the words man and explaining, defined as "to explain something to someone,
typically a man to woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing."[1][2] Lily Rothman of The
Atlantic defines it as "explaining without regard to the fact that the explainee know…
en.wikipedia.org
John Longstaff Too bloody right.
Nicholas Clapton Thank you, George.
Oliver Webber Paul, although I tend towards a similar view to yours, I think it could be expressed in a much more
generous and open-minded way. You won't persuade others of your point of view by patronising them.
Paul Poletti George Kennaway, I'm terribly sorry if you view objective science as some sort of male power trip. I'm
sure Jeneva is well-intentioned, but her theories simply do not stand up to objective reality. My only wish is to
provide her (1) with enough references to reality for her to realize she is barking up the wrong tree and (2) some
tools to help improve her understanding. Rest assured that I would do precisely the same were she a man. If you
choose to view it as some sort of male power trip, that says more about you than it does about me. I am only
interested in objectivity. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Paul Poletti Sorry, Oliver Webber, I'm not one to beat around the bush. But let me clarify: it is Jenevora's IDEAS
and methodology and not the person herself which I am attacking. I know many people today have trouble
making that distinction, but there it is. Get over it.
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Nicholas Clapton What you do not wish to acknowledge, however, is that some might consider your manner of
putting across your opinions as rude and overbearing.
Oliver Webber No Paul, you're not using neutral language, which on reflection surely you can recognise. I can
take the heat, believe me- I've even been unfriended for my views on historical strings and I can handle it!
Besides, largely I agree with you- but you do your case no favours with your tone. I think that we need to disagree
in a civil and respectful manner, rather than writing in an aggressive and patronising tone.
Paul Poletti I might also add that it is my experience that those who bring up the issue of protocol are almost
without exception those whose theories/ideas have no real merit. Otherwise they would simply argue the points
raised and let any arrogance, lack of respect, etc - perceived or real - roll off like water from a duck's back.
Oliver Webber I look forward then to your dismissal of my ideas as having no merit, since I am also concerned
with protocol smile emoticon
Paul Poletti Nicholas Clapton, I don't care what "some might consider". I am not a packaging expert. I try to keep
the contents up to high standards of veracity. The rest is of no real importance. Anyone who wishes to block
themselves from learning something because they don't like the presentation is not really interested in learning.
Go off to some American university where they have nice Trigger Warnings and Safe Spaces, you'll do well there.
Oliver Webber Why be rude, Paul? What does anyone gain from it? Present your ideas in a non-insulting way and
people will be more inclined to take them seriously. Note that I broadly agree with you, and even so am put off by
your angry tone!
Paul Poletti Oliver Webber, sorry to disappoint, but your comments seem confined to historical literature on the
voice, a topic of which I have no expertise. So I wouldn't presume to have anything of value to say. If you've got
something about acoustics or historical temperaments, I'd be happy to offer a critique of whatever you have to
offer.
Oliver Webber Well Paul, that does rather raise the question, if you have no expertise in historical literature on
the voice, why are you getting involved in this particular discussion?
Paul Poletti Oliver Webber, it's because rudeness is subjective. I am [not] at all angry, just tired of the same old
nonsense being trotted out over and over again, the assumption that what is true for European Western music is
true for all humanity. Also the lack of critical thinking, or the lack of taking the time/effort to check one's own
theories before launching them into the world. Really ,this is the 21st-century, the information age. I give bad
marks to my students for stuff like this. Personally, I spend more time trying to DISPROVE all of my own theories
than I do constructing supporting arguments, and I expect the same from others. That is what objectivity and
science is supposed to be about.
Oliver Webber Not actually answering the question, I note... smile emoticon
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Paul Poletti Oliver Webber, are you serious?????!!! Jenevora Williams made statements about ALL ADULT VOICES
today. THAT is what I took issue with. Don't play the trick of trotting out a Straw Man argument. If you have been
reading carefully, and if you read Jenevora's PDF, you know what the issue it.
Oliver Webber <sigh>
My issue is not with your arguments. I have repeatedly said that I broadly agree with you. But your presentation
is aggressive and patronising, and does your (our!) case no favours at all.
Paul Poletti Oliver Webber, I don't know how much you have read/though about the essence of the scientific
method, but Jenevora's very statement would have any real scientist already fuming. ALL adult voices? Really???
What is her sample size? This sort of language is not fit for any real objective academic work.
Oliver Webber Sorry, did you actually read anything I wrote?
Paul Poletti Oliver Webber, your objection to my tone is duly noted and needs no repetition. I repeat that it is of
no importance to me, because no matter how polite one tries to be, there will always be someone who finds
disagreement "aggressive". Are you aware of the new darling of the American academic world, "microaggression"? I have no time for such stuff. I simply try to put the truth out there. Anyone who doesn't like the
presentation is free to ignore the information. It's no skin off my back...
Oliver Webber I'm fed up. On the one hand there are people like Luke, who for all their experience don't seem to
be able to grasp the point of historical research, or to accept that there is more than one view of what is beautiful
or moving on stage, on the other, someone like Paul who has no idea how to have a polite debate and thereby
destroys his own argument. I'm out. Goodnight everyone.
Luke Green Oh my hat. I do get the point of historical research. I am passionately interested in it. I spend
a lot of my time attempting to interest singers in ideas and concepts derived from reading and coming to
terms with the most recent research on historical performance, without stripping them of their technique
and character as singers. I think you have misunderstood me altogether and misrepresent me!
Luke Green It is part of what I do to equip singers with the wherewithal of a musical language, an
understanding of harmony, language, stylistic concerns, poetry, history and a feeling of at one with the
ideas of the conductor and stage director in the space of about eight weeks. And to give them the
confidence to put on a good show. And sing beautifully, within the larger construct of Western Classical
Art Music (subgroup: Operatic Performance as it has arrived at present).
Oliver Webber Well, I may have overstated the case in my frustration, in which case I apologise. But I
*am* frustrated and this is why: the problem has been that you have so often dismissed a claim about a
*historical* point (e.g. that singers have not always used vibrato in the same way) by using an argument
about either current practices (this is how singers work best now) or taste (I love the expressive
properties of vibrato, therefore composers 400 years ago must have done so too). That's why I've kept
saying we need to keep the historical investigation (a) dispassionate (i.e. don't let information that
conflicts with your view colour your judgment) and (b) separate from a consideration of what singers
should or can do today.
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Luke Green We know that singers in the past sang without vibrato. That is clear from many sources and
has much to do with education, training, as I said a violence done against children (castration, which
caused the vocal folds to not develop as they should), taste and short singing careers/short lifespans. All
the research is there: in some of it, there is such little worth in attempting to implement it, that it is
largely useless. There are some interesting points that the Schola Cantorum in Basle are teaching singers
which Tosi hangs onto in his Treatise but which was largely irrelevant by the 1700's: solemnisation with
the hexachord/Guido's Hand, for those who would specialise in mediaeval music, renaissance polyphony,
even knowing it harmonically for monody and early baroque music as a guide for harmonic choices
(especially when Monteverdi chooses to ignore these rules for dramatic effect), and has its parallels (for
those who like that sort of thing) in the mnemonic syllabary and tabulatures used in highly developed
Asian Musical Culture. This has profound effect on choices of ficta and also tuning and ensemble that go
beyond our notion of tonality and ensemble.
Luke Green But it is highly specialised, and has little application to much of the music that is sung in opera
houses, concert halls and competitions, conservatoires and so forth.
Paul Poletti Sleep well, Oliver Webber. When you get up, I can tell you I did read your posts, which primarily seem
to be about aesthetic judgements and some ideas about interpretation of Bovicelli and Caccini. I am make no
claims to have anything of value to say on the latter, and the former is always subjective, so your opinion is as
good as mine. I only wish to correct the objectively verifiable errors in Jenevora’s PDF. And I might add that if you
think that failing to meet someone's expectation of proper protocol "destroys [an] argument", then you and I
have a completely different understanding of what an "argument" is. An argument stands or falls on its own
merits, the delivery has nothing whatsoever to do with the ultimate validity. But then, I am more at home in the
hard sciences, so maybe this idea is foreign to you.
Christopher Price Pontifex Poor old Cicero. All that work on rhetorical presentation of the argument for
nothing!
Paul Poletti Christopher Price Pontifex , I agree that rhetoric is a marvellous art form. However, it has
nothing whatsoever to do with the validity of the information being conveyed (if there is any at all), and
compelling rhetoric can be used to sell nonsense just as readily as truth. Recall that Hitler is generally
considered to have been a great rhetorician.
Oliver Webber Sigh. I should have signed out properly... Your assumption about my background is interesting, but
wrong:
I haven't forgotten my science degree, Paul, but I have learnt some manners. Having also studied the history of
science and how ideas gain a hold, I can assure you that the merits of an argument are a necessary but not a
sufficient condition for their acceptance; if you can't persuade those who disagree with you, your argument will
likely sit on the shelf for longer than it deserves.
Paul Poletti Oliver Webber, once again I feel I must clarify. I am not at all interested in how long it takes anyone
else to realize truth is true. If you want to persist in a false belief simply because you don't like the way the truth
was presented to you, I really honestly truly don't care. You choose to inflect ignorance upon yourself. BTW,
while you are so busy going on about my tone, did you notice the passive-aggressive put-down in Jenevora's
post? I presented here with 4 YouTube links that provide enough cold hard reality to show her her theory is
wrong, and what does she do? "If you know of any articles published in peer reviewed journals, let me know." As
if reality ain't real 'til somebody publishes a paper saying it is. I'm simply not interested in playing any of these
games.
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Mhairi Lawson IS THIS FOR REAL??
Bruce Dickey Unfortunately arrogance often is.
Grant Colburn I'm here mostly as a bystander but don't feel any offense is in Paul's replies. I completely agree
that the purpose here is to LEARN something. The defence to Paul's remarks is to show where and how he is in
error, otherwise all that is happening is an argument against his WAY of presenting his argument rather than the
argument itself. And though I don't know Paul that much personally I feel if he was presented with irrefutable
evidence to show his claims wrong he'd change his opinions willingly.
Paul Poletti Grant Colburn, you are absolutely right. I am always ready to consider any presentation of substance
and to change my mind if convinced. Again, I would stress that my experience is that those who go on and on
endlessly about arrogance and respectful tone are inevitably those who have nothing whatsoever of substance to
contribute to the matters which are under consideration. In this, too, I would love to be proven wrong.
Unfortunately, is has not yet happened, nor does it appear as though it will in this instance. wink emoticon
Luke Green Your aggressive address of people shows contempt of the opposing view which is contrary to
rules of fair engagement. You do not agree with the point of view expressed by your opponent, but you
must have the courtesy to listen with respect to your opponent's refutation. The nice thing about it is
that you may discover that your opponent concedes that you may be correct in challenging certain weak
areas in their argument, or indeed that your own argument is based on several serious misconceptions:
for which information we must be grateful in the long run, be it ever so painful in the receiving. Argument
is not about personal attack unless your opponent is immoral or at risk of making grave errors of
judgement to the detriment of the community at large. It is about dialogue. Please respect these terms of
engagement with those you wish to argue.
Oliver Webber Ironically it also show contempt for those with a similar viewpoint but who wish to argue
in a civilized way!
Grant Colburn I'm not sure where in Paul's replies there was anything looking like a "personal attack,"
other than saying things like "You are wrong and here's why." I hold a lot of controversial opinions about
music and come from a very odd place within classical/period music and rock music. I have dealt with
people in the rock world who have no idea of the abilities of classical musicians and vice versa. And then
also have a great love of music from India and the middle east so this topic and Paul's posts intrigued me.
But there are simple things which are facts. For example many classical musicians can't comprehend
when you say that the old Indian man with a voice like a dirty saxophone actually has a far greater sense
of intonation than the best European classical musician. Those who argued with Paul most aggressively
didn't seem to see the point he was making, which as far as I could tell was simply, "Don't tell me you are
choosing a certain voice type due to necessity. If you like a singer with a heavy vibrato, just admit you
LIKE it that way." Obviously classical music aesthetics decided in favor of a vibrato for not only singers but
also instruments, but it's because they LIKED it, not because there was a rational necessity for modern
string players to constantly wiggle their fingers while playing. For me the bottom line case Paul was
making was, "Don't tell me your opinions are fact when they are obviously opinions."
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Paul Poletti Yes, you are spot on, Grant Colburn! I admit my hackles were up a bit, but it is because I have
seen far too much of this sort of “cultural imperialism/elitism” in the acoustic and psychoacoustic
literature. I have no opinions as to the claims about muscle control and function, but what I do know for a
fact is that Jenevora Williams’s hypothesis that vibrato is an inescapable result of the adult human
physiology and that one would have to go to extra efforts to sing without vibrato is simply not credible in
light of the huge number of musical traditions which do not use it, many of which are folk traditions and
therefore involve no specialized training.
The comments about our perception being such that we don’t notice this ostensibly ubiquitous presence
of vibrato in sung sounds are irrelevant. If this hypothetical vibrato is indeed as severe as stated (between
+/- 12 cents to +/- 100 cents at 5-8 Hz), it is easily detectable with objective means, such as hi-speed hires FFT/spectrogram software which is widely available these days for any home computer. Personally, I
have to say that my ear can also easily detect such variations, a fact which I can verify by adjusting the
values in MADDE to the minimums given here. I find it hard to believe that any reasonable sophisticated
listener would also not hear it. But then, many modern musicians also readily accept tuning deviations
which I find unbearable.
It is rather sad to note that there has been far more discussion of perception of proper protocol here
than of the topic at hand. Jenevora Williams has also said absolutely nothing in defence of her ideas.
Oliver Webber At the risk of being repetitive, I agree with most of what Paul said. But if you present your
views in an unfriendly way, expect an unfriendly reception. It's very short-sighted, as it prevents your
message getting across, and it costs nothing to be friendly!
Oliver Webber Paul, by the way, there has been very extensive discussion of the actual subject matter in
this group over the last couple of weeks, and this thread is not the only place where JW's ideas have been
critically discussed.
Grant Colburn Oliver Webber Yeah, I don't know. I went back and reread Paul's initial reply along with his
explanation of WHY he was so irritated. Basically it seemed a refutation of the concept that OUR "white,
European, classical art music" is all that there is and all other types of music are implied inferior and not
worth acknowledging. As I mentioned in a reply awhile back muezzins throughout Islam stood on a roof
top over a city and sang the call to prayer unamplified for over 1000 years. Surely if they didn't need a
vibrato to do it, then there is no such thing as arguing there being a "need" for it. It is an aesthetic
preference...
Luke Green The muezzin do vibrate in the sense that they cantillate (rather like the can't or in the singing
of David's Psalms in the synagogue), which is approaching coloratura. But it must also be stressed that
this is not classed as music at all and should not be classed as such, for in many Islamic branches music is
entirely different and considered 'haram' or unclean, and quite apart from this liturgical practice. Again,
as Bruce Dickey's finding in Zacconi suggested, that vibrating voices are freer to move, using an image of a
boat already leaving the harbour. We have also already discussed vocal trills and their execution
previously in other posts.
Grant Colburn Luke Green Yes, I also know they don't "define" it as music, but to our senses and
experience it IS music as we define it, just like Gregorian Chant is considered a music of a sort. But
definitions aside it doesn't change the point I made. And though "in many Islamic branches music is
considered unclean" we know in reality that is not strictly followed. Is there Pakistani music? Persian
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music? Turkish music? Egyptian music? YES to all. So your correction though adding detail does not
negate my example.
Luke Green In comparing Western Classical or Art Singing with other traditions, it is interesting that the
period that we discuss mostly (say, from the mid 1500's to the 19th cent) we see a greater shift away
from the performer as a composer as well, whose input in the performance is as valid as the bigger
structure of the composition itself, to being merely an executant of the wishes of the composer. The
suppression of ornamentation is very gradual. We talk a great deal about microtonal cantillations in
Indian Classical music based upon the ragas or modes; the call from the minaret or the cantillations in the
synagogue. All these analogous traditions call for either special voice selection or filial transmission
(within the family, handed from parent to child), and extended training. Why does this sort of oscillation
please some of you and not that of the Western European Singing Classical Tradition? How many of you
might truly be shocked to hear a Morales Motet sung and played in a great Spanish Cathedral with the
well-documented vocal and instrumental ornamentation and performance style that regularly caused
punch-ups in the choir? Whitening art for marble-like pristineness is a falsehood, like the Iconoclasts of
the Reformation who whitewashed the great mediaeval frescos in Northern European churches, or the
nineteenth century restorers of French cathedrals who scrubbed statuary entirely free of its last vestiges
of mediaeval paint work-the truth about the vivid colour used was too shocking by half for those
classicising romantic age art historians.
Luke Green Grant Colburn if I remember rightly from my ethnomusicological studies, the researcher must
be both cautious and respectful when making classifications of "music" from other traditions. We had
many discussions about Aboriginal Australian music; the dangers and disrespect caused by recording
'secret business' and making it available by reproduction and distribution amongst other
ethnomusicologists if it is not the express wish of the tribe to do so.
Luke Green Grant Colburn then do discuss other areas of music from the Arabic or Turkish world if you
can speak with any authority upon it. I certainly cannot.
Grant Colburn Luke Green Regarding your longer reply, I think your statements rest upon your wording of
"Why does this sort of oscillation please some of you and not that of the Western European Singing
Classical Tradition?" That is IT in a nut shell. It is a matter of preference, "pleasing" and personal taste,
Not fact.
Grant Colburn Luke Green Hasn't your point been primarily to convince others that your choices have
been made due to facts that you believe are true? My only disagreement (and I think Paul's as well) is
that these things we are discussing are not facts, but opinions and a matter of personal taste.
Luke Green But it is allowed and cultivated in the 'music' or vocal utterances which you chose to use as
examples. I simply point out to you that one of your examples should best not be used as an example of
singing or music making as far as the Islamic world generally sees 'music'.
Grant Colburn Luke Green I can choose my examples as I see fit. It fits OUR examples of "Music" just fine.
Certainly as much as music can also be considered a drum solo in a rock concert. I am not talking to the
"Islamic world." I could have just as accurately brought up techniques of public speaking as an example of
how people learn to project without a vibrato.
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Luke Green It therefore does not preclude its use in what we somewhat artificially class as Early Music
from the Western European Classical or Art Tradition, if we are to consider that it was observed in its use
by several writers (who either expressed a personal, and in some instances a strong preference either for
or against it), but that it happened and was used in performance. .
Grant Colburn Luke Green No one (at least not me) is denying whether vibrato has a place in early music.
I wouldn't want a straight tone and I wouldn't want a Wagnerian warble either. But again it is TASTE,
what I "want" to hear. The argument is not whether it was used or not, but whether it is a factual
necessity.
Luke Green Given that several analogous, parallel, highly developed Art Music traditions also use or
cultivate microtonal oscillations in the voice and in some instances it is also imitated in instrumental
practice, should not modern singers similarly use many different forms of vibrato (as well as portato)?
There are several instances of eighteenth century instrumentalists either eschewing/deploring it, or
exhorting its frequent use as good taste. CPE Bach indicates bebung in his intimate keyboard works with a
special sign; but because other music of this period does not use his sign, should we infer that it was not
used by his colleagues and contemporaries?
Grant Colburn Luke Green Should we infer that when a 12 year old harpsichord student in 1760 was
playing badly they were somehow less authentically "period" than CPE Bach?
Luke Green We are discussing rather whether bebung is used by those who do not expressly indicate it in
their keyboard works (for example, Mozart is known to have given clavichord recitals in his last concert
tour of Germany: I personally consider it inconceivable that he might not use it, but because it is not
expressly indicated within works suitable for the instrument, should it be eschewed all together as an
unnecessary addition to the music?)
Grant Colburn Luke Green Not at all, but I am missing the larger point being made...
Luke Green I am drawing a parallel between vocal vibrato and keyboard vibrato (which was desirable and
derived from an imitation of the voice in the period we call Empfindsamkeit). If it is not expressly notated
as Emmanuel Bach does in his later works, should it therefore not be used whatsoever in music by his
forebears, contemporaries and nachfolgern?
Grant Colburn Luke Green Did you read my previous replies where I think such things then as now were a
matter of personal taste and preference?
Luke Green However personal taste and preference is not valid for the purposes of a discussion of
historical performance. I shouldn't like to have my knuckles rapped again by over Oliver Webber again on
that account. And does your personal taste override a) the wishes and practices of a composer and b) the
prevailing practices of the age within which the work was conceived?
Grant Colburn Luke Green Are we still talking about the amount and necessity of vocal vibrato? If we are
then yes. History would show a wide range of acceptability and I can choose what I like. I don't
particularly like Romantic music and I greatly dislike the sound of most operatic voices which sing
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Romantic music. I get to decide that. The "wishes of a (baroque) composer" are at times acknowledged
but were hardly a concern to most performers during that composer's lifetime. The entire concept of the
"wishes of a (baroque) composer" is barely a period concept in and of itself. I'm sure you've read of
composers of the time going to another country and not being able to recognize their OWN music be
played back to them due to the differences in another country's style and performance. Would these
performances be considered "wrong" in the eyes/ears of the composer? Yes. But are they un-period? No.
Martin Spaink I think the word is 'acquired taste'
Luke Green Grant Colburn then it is incorrect to use it as analogous with similar and well established
techniques in use in Western European Art Music for some time.
Luke Green Grant Colburn we were not discussing harpsichord playing as the harpsichord does not have a
means of controlling pitch oscillation via its touch. If you are implying that bebung and tragendes ton
techniques upon the clavichord are peculiar only to those who implicitly describe it such as Emmanuel
Bach and Türk, and must be avoided at all cost in the music of the other Bach sons and their many
contemporaries, you might find this radical concept difficult to sell to many scholars and clavichord
players.
Luke Green Grant Colburn it is not a matter of personal taste if you choose to disregard Em. Bach's
express indications of vibration in the music.
Luke Green Ergo, should one writer express a strong preference either for or against an expressive
technique, it does not follow that that expressive device should not be used or that its use is limited only
the music of that particular composer, or an associated repertoire.
Grant Colburn Luke Green You seem to be reading in much more than what I actually wrote. I left CPE as
a specific example and never brought him up again. The FIRST sentence I wrote was, "Are we still talking
about the amount and necessity of vocal vibrato? If we are then yes." And my ANSWER was "History
would show a wide range of acceptability and I can choose what I like." So I have no idea why you think I
am further discussing CPE or the harpsichord.
Oliver Webber Note (again) that I wasn't disagreeing with your point- merely pointing out that if you present it in
an unfriendly way you are less likely to convince people.
Eric Yeo Commenting forcefully, like singing louder (with heavy vibrato), doesn't make it more likely for
the audience to hear you. I found Paul Poletti's comments to be compelling, but couldn't help being
distracted by the tone of the delivery.
Paul Poletti That's OK, Eric. You're on the right track. Keep at it, stay focused and sooner than you think
you will no longer be distracted by such trivialities.
Oliver Webber Also this forum, like most, has rules, and they include being polite. Is it too much to ask that we
stick to them?
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Paul Poletti Problem with politeness is that it is subjective. Evidently Grant Colburn had no problem. QED
Christopher Price Pontifex Well, @Grant Colburn has one foot in the rock music world, so he is probably
used to the more directly aggressive communication there than the icily polite antagonism of academic
debate in the Early Music sphere. wink emoticon It's interesting, though, that he, like many people whom
I have encountered who come to classical music when their already formed musical interests are rock
and the like (I assume that is your situation, Grant) recoil at the sound of Romantic music, especially
vocal, and express pleased surprise on hearing HIP Renaissance and baroque music, including vocal. The
"traditional" operatic style for the small canon of Romantic and post-Romantic opera is obviously an
acquired taste, not frequently immediately attractive. Rather like children learning to like different foods.
Taste is an artificial construction. The focus of historically informed music performance enquiry is to try to
understand, at first intellectually and ultimately on an interior, "inhabited" level, what those tastes were
at the times and in the circumstances when the music being examined was written. As Oliver said in his
post below, there is a big element of the subjective in trying to understand what was originally a
subjective thing and thus a bit of caution in how we argue our positions is wise.
Oliver Webber It's precisely because it's subjective that it's wise to err on the side of caution.
Job Ter Haar Exactly. And in a discussion board this is extra important. We don't see each other, we can't smile or
give other small clues that we aren't actually that hostile. In real life I could probably have a very friendly
conversation about this topic with Luke, so there is no reason we couldn't do the same online; it just takes a bit
more effort. There are hundreds of people with whom I disagree about the use of vibrato (I think it's a religion
thing, just like Mac vs. PC) but in real life it usually doesn't get out of hand.
Christopher Price Pontifex Well said about Mac vs PC. You should hear my 84 year old mother, who
knows almost nothing about computers, carry on about the superiority of Mac!
Luke Green Indeed.
Paul Poletti Been down that road. Problem is, no matter how hard you try, there is always someone who takes
mere disagreement as a personal affront. Witness the wave of infantile behaviour sweeping American and UK
universities with all the Trigger Warning and Safe Space nonsense. Better to just be who you are and let the chips
fall where they may. As I said, anyone who rejects information because they don't like the presentation is only
hurting themselves.
Martin Spaink Credit to Paul, just as I am allergic to misplaced vibrato, he seems allergic to unfounded
sweeping statements brought as scientific evidence. I had the same impression reading the article by dr.
Williams. As it is, it gives the wrong 'arguments' to the wrong people. He brought to the fore all the points
that invalidate the broad sweeping statements better than I could. And no, it is not pleasant, but why
hide in likeable behaviour when something just does not hold water and not come out and say so.
Oliver Webber Because he could perfectly well have made the same points in a pleasant and friendly way,
and they would have been all the more powerful as a result. That's why. (Note that I say this as someone
who largely agrees with him!)
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Bruce Dickey Can we please get back to the subject at hand? I am trembling with anticipation! It is interesting to
me, that in the example of Sardinian singers provided by Paul, the three ensemble singers seem to sing with
perfectly straight tones, because the point is the blend and tuning, whereas the solo singer, to my ear uses
several kinds of "vibrato" or tremolo effects, both a kind of quivering in the voice, and some specific ornaments,
like tremoletti. Very much, I think, like the similar dichotomy in the 16th or early 17th centuries.
Martin Spaink These Sardinian tenores use a very focused voice projection to the extreme, A little bit
more north, on Corsica, other traditional song-formats are used, Cantu à tenores, where one soloist sings
over a drone pattern, long held out ( that's where the word 'tenor' comes from!) tones that support the
solo voice, that locks in in the consonances, while having the freedom and the acoustical support to apply
a wide variety of embellishments, that may include pitch-bending by micro-tonal bits,
Christopher Price Pontifex Sorry for my replies above just now. We are hours ahead of you in Australia,
which paradoxically means we see and respond hours after a post is put up.
Job Ter Haar Here's another example of that: ensemble singers singing relatively straight, and a higher
voice making more ornaments. This kind of singing still exists in Georgia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE9wd23h6pM...
The first recordings in the Georgian Republic…
youtube.com
Martin Spaink dr. Wim van der Meer and dr. Suvarnalata Rao did a very interesting research project, which
resulted in developing a software programme called PRAAT. In short, it visualizes vocal movements on a pitch
matrix. Their interest is mostly Indian classical music. Their programme (PRAAT) is open use, but perhaps not well
known. Here I post a link to one visualization of alapa in raga Shri, followed by the first lines of a composition in
Dhamar, Note: It would be very interesting to let loose this PRAAT programme on Callas, Lind, Patti or
whomsoever you like. https://vimeo.com/43347168
Shri - Uday Bhawalkar
Shri - Uday Bhawalkar
vimeo.com
Martin Spaink PS Uday is a particularly well-trained singer of the Dagarvani Dhrupad tradition, and I was happy to
have been taught by him (among others) when he was teaching at the ISTAR school of Indian music. Apart from
Indian classical music I have delved into the earliest medieval repertoires. Using no vibrato at all, but all the other
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means at my disposal, like maximizing resonance, I never had any problem singing alone in big cathedrals. I never
wanted to have voice lessons from western conservatory trained singers in those days, as I am totally allergic to
vibrato. A specific type of controlled vibrato in the right context can be very nice indeed, but in all other cases,
I'm out asap before I start frothing at the mouth. That says something about ME and MY tastes in music. But
when singers apply the wrong techniques and aesthetics to early music, medieval / renaissance and well into the
baroque, it's trouble to no end. How many otherwise beautiful recordings of cantatas have not been ruined by
mis-informed singers who do not question their idea of aesthetics? HIP instrumentalists have had to struggle with
everything and therefore are less prone to take things for granted, I would wish that more singers follow this
example. But let's end this rant on a happy note: things are getting better, if you know where to look.
Martin Spaink The other big issue is, once you leave out the ubiquitous and boring vibrato, you can start
wondering what other things may be possible. To name a few: use intonation in an expressive way, look for other
ways of expanding resonance, and aim at a higher control over vocal movements. Singers should be calligraphers,
not typewriters. In the oldest musical notations of 'gregorian' chant, A.D. 920/930, there is a wealth of notational
variations in writing the same group of pitches, meaning they had ways of varying how one note is reached from
the previous or the next etc etc. For instance a group of three tones could be written in no less than ten different
ways, whereas in later Vatican editions (late 1900) one single notation replaced all the other possibilities.
Thousands of publications on gregorian semiology later, still very very few people are able today to do justice to
the original variety. To put it bluntly, people get stuck with a piano in their head, which does not allow them to
look beyond what they think to know already.
Christopher Price Pontifex Another interesting feature of the Sardinian and similar traditions is the type of vocal
quality that is cultivated, which sounds rough and (not necessarily unpleasantly) abrasive to ears accustomed to
Western art music. Such a way of producing the voice seems to make it difficult to sing with the kind of vibrato
customary on the modern opera stage (and too often in HIP performances of baroque music). Whereas the
soloist, who as Bruce observed does use some vibrato, has a slightly more "polished" sound. I think.
Christopher Price Pontifex Having said that, I have heard Greek Orthodox chanting by voices that have a very
grating tone and a very heavy vibrato at the same time. Like with heavily vibrato laden operatic voices, such
chanting sounded to me rather wayward in pitch control.
Christopher Price Pontifex rcent
Christopher Price Pontifex The problem we face is what evidence can we call on to enable us to understand what
the few early sources that discuss singing style meant when words such as "tremolo", "zittern", "bebende" or
those several French expressions were used by them. As the pro-vibrato-ists sometimes suggest, the evidence of
19th century music criticism bemoaning performances with too much vibrato is of limited value for 17th and even
18th century performance traditions. Our experience even in our own lifetimes shows that tastes change, often
rapidly and markedly. I like to cite the evidence of the musical writing itself. But I find people using the same
argument to disagree with me. The other problem is that even now, as we discuss vibrato or no vibrato, it is
difficult to be sure what anyone in either camp is actually advocating. We had an example only recently when
Oliver Webber, undoubtedly in the "anti-vibrato" camp (this does not mean "no vibrato") and one of the most
eloquent and learned contributors to this discussion, posted a video of Anna Dennis singing Purcell. He admires
her HIP performance, while I find she has far too much and far too frequent vibrato for that particular style of
music and, besides, too heavy a tone. (This, by the way, is not intended as an attack on either Oliver or Anna, just
an observation). However, combining all the available evidence, it does seem that the one fairly certain
conclusion is that a vibrato with a wide oscillation of pitch in the style (pretty uniform these days) of the modern
opera stage, does not sit comfortably on pre-Romantic period vocal music, even while a variety of different other
styles of vibrato may.
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Luke Green There were just as many different voice types in the past as is now: although the classification by
description and repertoire suitability did not exist, the music itself gives signs of this kind of differentiation. The
fine airs for the soprano soloist in the Indian Queen are light, lyrical, agile and in dance forms ("I attempt from
Love's Sickness to fly in vain" and " They tell us that your mighty powers above"). It is no surprise then, to
discover they were written for a teenage girl, Laetitia Cross, whose voice had perhaps not yet fully formed (this
troubling use of very young female singers at this stage in life was a contributing factor to vocal problems in later
life, as seems to have been the case with Anastasia Robinson). This is in stark contrast to songs such as Bess of
Bedlam where the frequent dips into a lower tessitura suggest a mezzo, perhaps even with dramatic possibilities,
might have sung such a song. The casting of Dido and Aeneas is another tricky matter...if the work were first
written for court performance in the early 1680's, there is some evidence for a relatively high pitch standard, in
which case does one cast Dido as a light, higher, mezzo or a more lyric soprano? And suddenly Aeneas is a baritenor rather than a baritone. The paradigm shifts somewhat for later performances (and even after the composer
had died, the work was revived in the very early 18th cent with additions I think by Eccles-the New London
Consort toured this a few years ago; and I believe there is better documentation of the singers who took the
roles). I think that Bruce Haines discussed changes in pitch standards in English music of this time in relation to
the influx of French wind players. So to suggest there is one ideal voice type for a particular music is utter
nonsense. This can be seen where Handel intended roles for a particular voice but had to use another singer
when the other was not free (he intended the role of David in "Saul" for an Italian mezzo, but a castrato sang it in
the end), or even recomposing a role and cutting/adding arias for a singer of different capabilities or indeed
completely different voice type.
Christopher Price Pontifex Do I sense a straw man rising? I did not suggest that one voice type applied across all
pre-Romantic periods across all Europe, if that is what you're getting at Luke. Rather, I think today the modern
opera stage has seen a massive move to uniformity of style even from the mid-twentieth century. My impression
of Purcell and his contemporaries' music, generally and leaving aside what the range might tell us (might) about
the age of the intended singer, is that it always requires a light, agile and basically vibrato free voice to manage
the twiddly and sometimes surprisingly direction changing vocal lines. For different reasons, the vocal stage
music of Stradella and his Italian contemporaries seems to call for a basically vibrato free technique both to sing
the by turns long spun out lines over an active bass line and energetically erupting passages of florid interchange
between voice and instruments. Based on a relatively small sample of such music I have heard, I have to admit! In
both English and Italian mid to late 17th century music, so very different from each other, a pronounced, widely
oscillating vibrato (whether slow or sharp and choppy) seems to interfere with the phrase writing and overall
scheme of the music.
Luke Green Then I might respectfully suggest that if you refer directly to a performance of Purcell's music and
openly criticise the singer despite self-confessed scant knowledge of the music of Purcell, his predecessors,
contemporaries and followers, that you leave off making pronouncements about a repertoire until you have done
the research necessary to speak with authority. I still fail to understand your speculation that vibrato of any sort
might interfere with phrasing. And finally Letty Cross was only a young girl, supposed to be but 13 or 14 at the
time of the production of The Indian Queen. It has nothing to do with the music and everything to do with dates.
Christopher Price Pontifex The small sample I was referring to was of Stradella. I am familiar enough with
Purcell's music to be able to perceive that a heavy vibrato interferes with how the singer delivers the
delicate and agile vocal line. If you cannot hear how heavy vibrato interferes with how the singer delivers
the delicate and agile vocal line. If you cannot hear how heavy vibrato destroys the phrasing then I fear
there is no point in putting any arguments to you. By the way, Francesca Caccini was a professional singer
and already well regarded by age 13, as was her own daughter in turn years later. That should suggest
something about the early to mid seventeenth century opera stage in Italy.
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Christopher Price Pontifex And the later seventeenth century too.
John Moraitis Well, 17th and 18th century musicians regarded vibrato at best as an ornament that should be
applied in specific places, and at worst as a bad habit. "Fermo or the maintenance of a steady voice, is required
on all notes, except where a trillo or ardire is applied. It is regarded as a refinement mainly because the tremulo is
a defect.... Elderly singers feature the tremulo, but not as an artifice. Rather it creeps in by itself, as they no
longer are able to hold their voices steady." (Bernhard, 1649).
"The greatest elegance of the finest voices is the prolation of a clear plain sound." (Roger North, ca. 1695).
"Let him learn to hold out the notes without a shrillness ... or trembling ... [otherwise] he will get a habit, and not
be able to fix it, and will become subject to a fluttering in the manner of all those that sing in a very bad taste."
(Tosi, 1723)
Miles Golding Very interesting and informative discussion. I have trouble accepting that vocal vibrato is a natural
unconscious phenomenon. "All sung sounds have vibrato.......Finally, we know that vocal vibrato is naturally
occurring and that instrumental vibrato is an aesthetic choice." Vocal vibrato is an aesthetic choice, assuming a
larynx that hasn't yet suffered the depredations of ageing. Here is Sandy Denny, at her most expressive I think,
displaying a range of utterly straight tones and some very subtle - and surely conscious - vibrato of varying
amplitude. The band does the same - obviously a conscious aesthetic choice. I wonder if she and they thought
about it much though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3RMut_8IxQ
Singers Unlimited would surely not have achieved that clarity of texture had they applied vibrato when multitracking individual lines. "We can also sense whether a sung note has been altered in the recording studio; a
sound that is too straight will appear unnatural to our ears." Their voices sound pretty natural to me.
Christopher Price Pontifex The "vibrato is natural" school seek to justify their aesthetic preference by relying on
that to advance the further argument that it is therefore also unavoidable and, as a further consequence, the
17th and 18th century sources that refer to tremolo and other similar expressions in Italian and other languages
must be advocating constant and relatively heavy vibrato. But even if vibrato were a natural and unavoidable
feature of the human voice singing, that does not prove that baroque period musicians and their audiences
wanted it. After all, we have plenty of evidence today that it is possible to avoid vibrato almost completely and
still produce a full and musical sound.
Miles Golding I'm pretty sure that the reason Bonnie Hermann was so much in demand was because her voice
was naturally straight. That's just the way it came out, and the way she liked to do it. So along came the jingles before she was even 20 - and the $$!
Bruce Dickey I would like to invite everyone to listen to this brief excerpt from the demonstration video of my
Breathtaking project with Hana Blažíková, which sets out to show the similarity and affinity of the cornetto and
the human voice. While I don't mean to say that Hana sings entirely without vibrato here (and certainly not in
other repertoire), reflect on how the use of more vibrato on her part would affect that imitation of the human
voice by the cornetto. Either I would sound ridiculous by adding vibrato to my sound, or we wouldn't match at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgNJvJ-BQRI
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Breathtaking excerpt D'India
A brief excerpt of the Breathtaking demo. Dilectus meus of D'India.
youtube.com
Richard Bethell Thanks for this. Beautiful. I've just checked Blažíková out on Spotify and she has used more
vibrato elsewhere. At times, in duets with you, she perpetrates NO audible vibrato. Has she seen the light, or
what? Of course, we all know that the cornetto is supposed to sound like the human voice. But the reverse must
also be true, and all too often sopranos clash, not only with cornetto, but other instruments which are expected
these days to deliver straight tone, such as the recorder, oboe, and trumpet. Do let this group know when the CD
is out, because in this case (as a failed cornetto player myself) I would like to read the liner notes besides
listening.
Bruce Dickey Yes, of course she uses more vibrato elsewhere. I think it is partly because we are imitating each
other (she says she has always aspired to sound like a cornetto) and partly the nature of the piece with its long
sustained dissonances and entwining lines.
Bruce Dickey On my website, under Projects/breathtaking, you can already read a text about the program and
watch a longer video. www.brucedickey.com.
Home
Bruce Dickey is one of a handful of musicians worldwide who have dedicated themselves to reviving…
brucedickey.com
Miles Golding I find that style of singing highly appealing. It provides full expressive power to the
dissonances, resolutions and strands of melody, as several contributors have mentioned, and is in itself
very expressive, even the totally straight notes. And I love the slight varying between hints of vibrato and
more explicit application. It's very similar to what Sandy Denny does in Reynardine. Considerable
expressive power can be generated on straight notes simply because of the suspense of not knowing
what's going to happen to the pitch, particularly as a note gets louder. Fabulous duetting, Bruce.
Bruce Dickey Btw, we will perform this program in conjunction with the AMS conference in Vancouver in October.
Oliver Webber Thank you Bruce, quite an inspiration (literally)
Bruce Dickey Hana uses quite different amounts of vibrato on the different parts of this program. Almost none on
pieces like this D'India Motet where the voices are maximally entwined, more on pieces by Cazzati and Merula,
where the cornetto has more of a ritornello function, almost none again on the piece by Calliope Tsoupaki and
much more (though not in the modern operatic sense and certainly not constant) on the arias of Alessandro
Scarlatti and Gio. B. Bassani. I don't think (we haven't talked about this) that she thinks a lot about how much to
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use. I think it comes about naturally in response to what she is imitating or what she desires as a sound color. I
think that is the key to the question of whether vibrato is natural. If you are immersed in a culture where the
vibrato sound is constant or nearly, it will arise naturally by the unconscious desire to replicate that sound. If you
are not, it won't. As an instrumentalist I can't speak to the technical aspects of this process.
Christopher Price Pontifex It's a pity no singers of the "no vibrato" school could participate in this discussion of
vocal vibrato in early music, to explain why they sing as they do. But not surprising in view of the seeming
dominance of HIP baroque opera by directors who favour traditional grand opera voices. At least that is what it
looks like from the outside and from the almost total absence from the concert/opera circuit and record
catalogues of baroque opera and other large-scale baroque secular vocal music with "no vibrato" casts.
Bruce Dickey But, Christopher, why do we have to persist with this false dichotomy of either a "no vibrato" school
or "grand opera voices". I think most of us think the correct approach lies somewhere in the middle (speaking of
17th century HIP opera). Do we not have that much consensus? Where do you place Hana, or María Christina
Kiehr, or Nuria Rial, on that continuum? Closer to the no-vibrato end, I guess, but certainly not no-vibrato. I don't
know anyone who sings Baroque opera with no vibrato. Do you?
Oliver Webber False dichotomies are a real enemy of knowledge.
Christopher Price Pontifex As I have said before, Bruce, "no vibrato" is shorthand for the approach of the kind you
are advocating for a more discerning and source-based style of vibrato in baroque music. It does not mean
literally no vibrato at all, ever. If I called it "HIP vibrato" or "period vibrato", for example, in this discussion that
would just be begging the question (to misuse that expression). I have to say, I am only a mild fan of Hana
Blažíková (I sometimes find her voice somewhat strident - a personal taste only - despite having most of her
recordings) and no fan of Nuria Rial (despite her really beautiful and sweet voice, she has a sagging kind of
elongated and quite pronounced vibrato (not all the time, though) I find unattractive - again a personal taste, not
claimed to be on historical grounds). Maria Cristina Kiehr is another matter altogether, and she does vary her
style of vibrato, within narrow limits, depending on the music she is singing. I regard all three of them as being
"early music" singers - which is to say singers who pay heed to the artistic and technical ideals of the HIP
movement - while fully recognising their differences of approach. But it is no false dichotomy when every single
Handel production (at least those on CD and DVD I am aware of - the tyranny of Australia's distance from Europe)
features heavy, grand opera voices in every role or at least all the main roles who pay little heed to the need to
deploy vibrato as an ornament or colouration aid rather than coat every note in the same, almost unvarying
vibrato or obviously do not share the same aesthetic objectives as the accompanying period instrument
orchestra. The dichotomy is real between those singers who recognise that, at the very least, before our era, a
constantly applied, strongly pitch-fluctuating vibrato was not the norm and those who completely ignore this and
unthinkingly apply their operatic vocal training to all music, including baroque. There may be a shading into
middle ground between the two camps in some circumstances and I think neither side of the argument holds that
their respective approaches mean a uniform vocal style, but that does not alter the fact that there is a distinction
between those who favour "modern opera" voices and those who prefer "early music" voices. I think many "no
vibrato" style singers feel that dichotomy very concretely in their professional lives, while they watch the likes of
Bartoli and Fagioli (to take examples I have cited before) strut the stage with period instrument orchestras.
Martin Spaink Thanks to Bruce and Hana and the lute-player, it is quite beautiful in my ears, you both tickle me in
all the right places in just the right way. I can appreciate the clear enunciation of tones in a variety of cadences,
trillo's etc. far from blurry tones, or tones that fly out of axis, both handle tone as a living thing in itself. I will look
out for the recording. Molto apprezzato!
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Martin Spaink incidentally, right after listening to the video of Bruce and Hana, this video popped up, and it is
somehow a relevant happy turn-out: this lady plays the Saràsvati Veena beautifully. Saràsvati (the You-tube
header is misspelled) is the Goddes of Music and Learning, go figure. Veena means lute. This expresses all the
gamakas a good singer should be able to handle accurately. Please listen to the organized and varied ways of
tonal inflections and the effect it creates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6M_kXzdDzI
Paul Poletti Lovely!!
Martin Spaink Isn't she just great? In 2003 I did a very nice tour, accompanying Sreevidhya Chandramouli,
who plays the same type of instrument. I played and tuned the tambura, 10 concerts, one of the nicest
tours I ever did.
Paul Poletti I had no idea you were so into Indian classical music, Martin! Nice!! Absolutely love the stuff,
can't get enough of it. Shows how pathetically impoverished Western classical music is [in] melodic
expression.
Martin Spaink Glad you like it Paul! Got heavily involved in the Dagarvani Dhrupad-scene as a singer,
played sarangi, and accompanied looots of top artists as a tanpura-walla. Have serviced lots of
instruments, doing jivari-work etc. ...and started a private war against the insipid electronic tanpura
boxes you see everywhere today, blast 'em!
Christopher Price Pontifex The false distinction maybe is to consider vibrato in isolation rather than as part of an
all-encompassing study of vocal style. Vibrato receives a lot of attention, but I can tell you that it is only part of
what I react to in HIP performances of vocal music. There is also the style of the voice (not sure how to express
this), the manner of expressing the music, text or drama, the use of dynamics, etc - basically the overall stylistic
approach. There have been rare occasions when I have disliked a vocal performance with a singer who cut her
vibrato almost entirely, but had a style of vocal production, a sound, that would not be out of place in Verdi or
Wagner. I am not a musician except in the most amateur and frustratingly unproficient sense, so I find it difficult
to express what I mean in this regard. By the way, notwithstanding my comments about Hana Blažíková, I too am
waiting with great anticipation for the Breathtaking CD.
Grant Colburn I just think the simplest concept to remember is that for the most part our range of likes
and dislikes for period music today were mostly true back in its time. I recently reread the biography of
Handel by Hogwood and he quotes lots of people who had seen Handel's operas and oratorios etc. and
basically the writers loved some singers, thought others to have thin voices, others to be terrible actors
and still others fat and unattractive. So go figger wink emoticon
Richard Bethell I think your posts are valuable, coming from a top ranking performer. It would be good to have
the views of Hana and other vocalists. Meanwhile, I'll spend a few minutes looking at "the broad strategic sweep"
Consider first the period from 1575 to 1640, a period of revolution and creative destruction, with the birth of
opera and monody, seconda prattica, and innovation in all directions. Giovanni Kapsberger even tried sometimes
to disrupt the sacred tactus, though this particular innovation died with him. Try to do a simple thing like beating
time to Paul O'Dette's performance of his Aria di Fiorenza (I have it on [a CD and] a playlist) and (even you Bruce
Dickey!) will lose the beat! And, as I have indicated elsewhere, the historic record shows that there was some
vibrato'ing and trillo'ing around during this period. I agree that the decision you and Hana have taken on this, to
follow musical logic and your feelings, is right. For me, Dominique Visse in his Tunes of Sad Despair (Dowland) has
taken the correct decision to perform the music without vibrato, but with plenty of messa di voce. I think his
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performance is close to the peerless, sweet, supernatural sound of the falsettist in St Roches Church (in 1608)
described by Thomas Coryat.
But the case is very different when we look at the period from 1640 to 1825. During this time, Italian musici
maintained a strict, but benign, hegemony over vocal interpretation (with France possibly excepted), starting
from around 1650, when Pierfrancesco Tosi trained and Bernhard noted that tremolo was the preserve of
decayed elderly singers. I have to agree that the historic record, which I have studied for 20 years now, supports
the views of Christopher Price Pontifex and others. OF COURSE, no one sings opera NOW without vibrato,
because they are following convention, as dictated by the current hegemony, which I view as inartistic for the late
baroque and early classical periods. I've no problem with this. As I've said before, bring on diversity. Let the
vibratoists carry on wobbling. But let's encourage singers like Miriam Feuersinger to interpret Bach cantatas and
Handel operas without (1) vibrato, (2) screeching on high notes in chest voice or (3) head mistressy low larynxing.
Christopher Price Pontifex Thank you Richard Bethell. you express better than i can what i have been getting at in
my amateurish way.
Miles Golding Can anyone explain "intensity" vibrato please? A technique apparently different from "pitch"
vibrato.
Louis Spohr was not aware of it. In his Violin School (1830) he observes: "When a singer with passionate emotion
gives forth his voice to its fullest power, a certain tremulous effect is audible, resembling the vibrations of a
powerfully-struck bell", that "this may be closely imitated on the violin", describes vibrato on the violin, and
continues "in compositions of a distant date, the tremolo is sometimes indicated by a row of dots or by the word
tremolo". He says that in modern compositions it is left to the player's discretion; care should be taken not to
introduce it too often or in unsuitable places; suitable places are where the music is tender, impassioned, or
where there is powerful accentuation, long sustained notes. He also advises players to consider varying the speed
of vibrato.
And another thing.... someone of a distant date, and I can't remember who, probably L Mozart or Quantz, scorn
singers - or is it instrumentalists? - who apply a constant tremolo as if they have the palsy. I'll look it up when I
have time, but one of you will probably have it at your fingertips.
John Moraitis I'm pretty sure the last quote is from Leopold Mozart's violin method and refers to
violinists--but I'd also have to look it up for the exact wording smile emoticon
Oliver Webber Yes, it's L Mozart, think it's chapter 11...
Job Ter Haar I think "intensity vibrato" on strings is produced by the bow. Baillot is writing about this in
his violin method (the second one), if I remember correctly, and there are more sources for this.
Miles Golding Sorry, Job, I meant the vocal references.
"Is vibrato in commercial music singing different?
The vocal technique for amplified singing is very different from western classical singing. The voice is used
in a more speech-like setting and extended vocalized sounds are fewer. Singers will sometimes use less
pitch vibrato and more intensity vibrato. They may also control and release the vibrato during a longer
note."
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Nicholas referred to it too.
Nicholas Clapton "Intensity vibrato" I understand as a variation in the amplitude of vibration in the voice,
a very rapid "coming and going" of the sound. I have no idea how this might be produced consciously by
an instrumentalist without affecting pitch as well, and I'm not sure how a singer would do it either (in the
sense of control it consciously). As to techniques used in "amplified singing", I think this refers to the fact
that most pop/rock is sung in a pitch area closer to the person's speaking pitch, and that melismatic
writing is less frequent. The mannerism of holding a note straight and then "letting the vibrato happen" is
also frequently encountered, as indeed is sometimes the case in HIP performance.
Tony Prost the "row of dots" appears to be a reference to the notation of "bebung", a tremolo indication
for clavichordists.
Oliver Webber It also appears in Gluck's accompanied recitatives IIRC
Paul Poletti Miles Golding, the proper modern technical name for "intensity vibrato" is "tremelo". It is
simply a rapid periodic change in volume, like grabbing the volume control knob and turning it back and
forth rapidly. Most electric guitar amplifiers have this capability. In the world of sound synthesis and in
modern acoustics in general, the two terms have specific and different meanings, "vibrato" referring to a
rapid periodic variation in pitch. Therefore the term "intensity vibrato" is an oxymoron.
Job Ter Haar In HIP string playing the term "bow vibrato" is widely used. In the 19th century and early
20th century vibrato doesn't necessarily mean pitch vibrato. An example of this is the open C string on
which Debussy writes 'vibrato' in his cello sonata.
Bruce Dickey On the subject of intensity vibrato, I think it is important to note that from the point of view of
perception, there is no intensity vibrato without a pitch element and no pitch vibrato without a perceived
intensity fluctuation. These parameters are all linked in the brain. It is a question of which parameter dominates.
The terms vibrato and tremolo are pretty much useless in my mind in distinguishing these devices because their
meanings over time have fluctuated almost as much as an opera singer's voice.
Like · 1 · 1 February at 17:53
Bruce Dickey I think it is interesting as well, that no mention has been made, I think, of the perceptual/cognitive
aspect of vibrato. A lot has been said about it being necessary to a healthy voice production (though, of course,
not all agree), but nothing or very little about why human beings appear to find pitch fluctuation a pleasurable
sensation, at least in certain contexts, when it is well regulated. It seems to me it lies in the tendency of the brain
to attenuate sounds which continue in an unvaried state. By slightly changing the pitch this attenuation process is
constantly being fooled, so that the tone appears more lively and strong. Even in cultures where the vocal sound
is more or less vibrato-less, this phenomenon is still seen in instrumental techniques - e.g., the sarawati example
above. Surely this is why instrumentalists in the western European tradition were always searching for new
techniques for making vibratos or tremoli. Not only to imitate the voices (which some would have it were singing
without vibrato) but to make their own sounds more vibrant and alive.
Like · 3 · 1 February at 18:08 · Edited
Nicholas Clapton Bruce Dickey, it is a joy to read your posts!
Like 1 February at 18:08
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Martin Spaink thank you for those interesting points Bruce. The perceptual- conceptual aspects are, I suppose,
interchangeable with having 'le bon goût' in French Baroque and good 'taleem' for Indian musicians. We should
always be on the look out to expand both our perception and concepts. Often in my lessons with Indian masters I
had a hard time to grasp what exactly was being explained through example. When you think you're looking for
something red, it's hard to find it if it is actually blueish.
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V14. Richard Bethell, launched 9 Feb 2016
Richard Bethell
9 February at 19:20
Ref Thread initiated by
V1 George Kennaway
V2 Robert Berger
V3 Shaun Ng
V4 Debbie Winter
V5 George Kennaway
V6 Richard Bethell
V7 George Kennaway
V8 Nicholas Clapton
V9 Christopher Suckling
V10 Catherine O'Connor
V11 Oliver Webber
V12 Christopher Wilke
V13 Nicholas Clapton
V14 Richard Bethell
V15 Bec Duggan
Total
Started on
12-Dec-15
19-Dec-15
24-Dec-15
18-Jan-16
21-Jan-16
21-Jan-16
21-Jan-16
21-Jan-16
23-Jan-16
26-Jan-16
27-Jan-16
28-Jan-16
28-Jan-16
9-Feb-16
1-Mar-16
Comments
143
45
16
192
30
11
2
51
101
44
161
5
174
78
21
1,074
Thread V14. I’m taking stock during the Vibrato Wars truce. Most posts came from either REFORMERS or
DEFENDERS of the status quo, reflecting deeply entrenched polar opposite views. No wonder the debate got
feverish at times. George Kennaway, the simplistic answer to your question “What is it about vibrato that gets
people so worked up?” is surely that, while many of us love it, many of us hate it; equally many of us are agnostic
on the issue. About 100 people posted 1,000 comments in 15 threads, mostly during the 2nd half of January. I’m
still catching up with the immensely valuable book-sized result (some 81,000 words, which I’ve saved in a Word
file), plus the many links and videos. Much erudition, wit and good sense are on display. The problem was that it
was getting impossible to unearth the threads from contemporaneous and succeeding posts. I have therefore
posted a reference number towards the end of each thread, making them more easily accessible.
I've also added a new thread to the table above, and the Word transcript. Contributors have been admirably
disciplined, focusing 100% on Bec's question about 17th sources, with zero disputation. Please note that George
Kennaway has just started up Thread V16 about the 19th Century, commenting that "It's been a bit quiet around
these parts". I'll be offering a couple of comments later today.
I have two matters for discussion: (1) What do you think of Sarah Potter’s doctoral thesis “Changing Vocal Style
and Technique in Britain during the Long Nineteenth Century” which can be downloaded from
http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.638939. Sarah is a trained singer and has made available a
four-CD portfolio of recordings in support of her thesis; these demonstrate 19th century styles and voice
production techniques, the emulation of early recorded vocal performances and the realisation of nineteenthcentury repertoire using historically-appropriate approaches to style and technique. If you are my Facebook
friend, you can hear some of the singers discussed in the thesis from my Spotify playlist “Vibrato Lite Early 20C
Voice” at - https://open.spotify.com/…/…/playlist/6kndc7Bxx7gJUKXtklrES8.
And Nicholas Clapton, I would be interested in your views on the singing of Emma Albani, who was taken to task
for her tremolo in no fewer than 53 reviews.
(2) Many of you, judging from lists of people “liking” particular posts, have followed the discussion, but not yet
posted. Do let the group have your views, including whether you are a reformer, a defender, or in a different
category, and why.
Changing vocal style and technique in Britain during the long nineteenth century
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Thread V14, 9 Feb 2016
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ethos.bl.uk|By Potter, Sarah
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Christopher Suckling Thank you, Richard, a very helpful timeline.
Richard Bethell Have tried to do a more elegant job of the timeline table, but Facebook defeated me
Nicholas Clapton Mme Albani: I have listened to several tracks on YouTube. It is most interesting that she was
taken to task for her tremolo, since it sounds much more like a vibrato to me, and one that is not always present.
The strangest thing about her singing to my ears is the frequent use of glissando, not even what I would term
portamento; and also some very odd phrasing. The recordings of "Ombra mai fù" and "Angels ever bright and
fair" are almost perverse in both of these respects. Her trill is wonderful. She was clearly a highly regarded and
successful performer - tastes change so much in a century.
Richard Bethell Thanks, Nicholas Clapton. From about 1840 to 1890, the terms tremulousness, tremolo and (a bit
later) vibrato were interchangeable and usually meant a very slight pitch vibration. From 1890, a good to evil
scale was used, with vibrato being only slightly bad or even slightly good, tremolo definitely bad, and wobble (or
wabble in the US) being terrible.
Nicholas Clapton Wabble sounds worse than wobble, somehow - I can hear it said with a broad New York accent,
a term loaded with contempt ...
Robert Berger Many advocates of HIP have an idealized picture in their minds of a perfect, ideal, past of music
which was blissfully vibrato-free. But they are deluding themselves .
Christopher Suckling Richard went to a lot of effort to summarise previous posts and introduce new
material for consideration. Can we please try to avoid this kind of blanket statement - it caused so much
aggravation in previous threads that, even here of all places, Godwin's Law was invoked. Thank you.
Mike Bayliss And a good number of people over the course of these threads have been at pains to make
clear that they were NOT saying the "past" (whichever particular period that is supposed to encompass)
was "vibrato free", but that it was used as an ornament and for coloration, not a permanently switched
on state. I'm surprised this needs repeating.
Nicholas Clapton That's what I think too, but I keep getting shot at by those armed with "evidence". Vibrato-free
singing makes me feel physically (as well as psychologically) ill.
Mike Bayliss And there are others for whom a permanent, exaggerated vibrato has the same effect,
Nicholas. This group is, however , supposed to be about historical performance research, not personal
taste.
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Oliver Webber There has been some really excellent analysis of evidence - no quotation marks necessary - with a
view to learning from history, from (in particular) Richard Bethell, Bruce Dickey and of course many others in
these threads. If we could leave generalisations (by their nature unhelpful) and personal preferences (inevitably
diverse) aside, this discussion could be rewarding without anyone getting upset.
Job Ter Haar I don't believe that all people either hate or love vibrato. Personally, I don't love or hate vibrato any
more or less than I love/hate trills, hairpins, etc etc... for me the vibrato discussion would become more
interesting if we would focus more on the when, why and how.
Shaun Ng Sounds like a 'what I think' vs 'what is in historical sources' argument. At least one approach is to some
extent informed by historical sources. What about the other?
Barney Sherman This looks like a brilliant thesis and I'm looking forward to reading it - thanks for posting! Just the
abstract reminds me that it seems to me it's the "continuous lowered larynx position" that really defines the
"operatic" sound for many non-classical listeners in the 21st century - more than vibrato - but that this
continuous lowered-larynx position was something Mozart would not have expected to hear. Anyway, looking
forward to delving into this....
Nicholas Clapton This matter of "continuous lowered larynx" is very over-played, in my opinion; it is NOT
universal in modern vocal pedagogy or practice.
Oliver Webber Just thinking about the "marmite" factor and people's reactions: personally I don't "love" or "hate"
vibrato, but I do dislike the indiscriminate use of it.
Richard Bethell Oliver Webber you are right. My original post suggesting the musical world is divided into
50% loves and 50% hates was sloppily written. I will now edit it.
Oliver Webber Another frustration in these threads has been when they move away from a dispassionate analysis
of history and become a tennis match of "I like vibrato" vs "I don't like vibrato" - often polarizing views that might
initially have been more subtly shaded. The whole point of the HIP movement has been to learn from what we
can discover about the past- often surprising ourselves in the process. If we let personal preferences or today's
aesthetic standards influence our analysis, we won't learn as much, and that's a pity. Note that I'm not suggesting
we leave these things out of our *performances* - but they don't belong in good history.
Oliver Webber Richard, you may have to start a new category of "threads about threads about vibrato"... wink
emoticon
Oliver Webber Also - I will be *very* interested to read the Potter thesis as soon as I have time, so thank you for
posting the link.
George Kennaway I can strongly recommend Sarah's thesis!
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Richard Bethell While we wait for comments on Sarah Potter's treatise, I’d like to take the discussion forward,
starting from a personal angle. Over some 55 years of adult life, thanks to the post WWII early instrument revival,
I’ve been able to enjoy inspirational, historically informed performances on strings, double reeds, windcaps, lute,
recorder, cornetto, brass, organ, and baroque keyboards, sometimes taking part myself. Unfortunately, singing
has got stuck in a time warp. This is not meant derogatorily. John Potter and Neil Sorrell noted in their excellent
“A History of Singing” (P. 215) that the ossified conservatoire system is designed to maintain the status quo. It
“produces far more singers than the profession can absorb, which creates a vicious circle of competition with
more and more singers chasing fewer opportunities to sing a very small amount of music”. Some of us thought
that Greta Haenen’s “Das Vibrato in der Music des Barock”, published 28 years ago, would prompt a revival of
vibrato-light singing (I quoted her conclusions in thread V4 on 21st January). It didn’t. In my case, nearing the end
of life’s journey, I remain imbued with a strong longing (probably shared with many of my readers) to hear Bach
cantatas, Handel operas/ oratorios and Rossini’s music sung properly in line with the historical record before I
pop my clogs. But I remain thwarted - regrets, sighs, frown emoticon = ! What should happen? To start with, we
need 2 or 3 UK universities/ academies to launch early music singing courses (ideally specialising in particular
repertoire), perhaps as a second study, backed by research. There would be scholarship funding for secondary
school students with beautiful natural voices, bearing in mind that the best 18th and early 19th century singers
(especially women) often debuted in their mid teens. There must be hundreds of potential Cuzzonis, Bordonis,
Cibbers, Frasis, Billingtons and Clara Novellos out there, just waiting to be discovered. What treats in store! Plus a
huge amount of work for singers graduating from these institutions, given that the complete oeuvre of Handel,
Bach, Mozart and Rossini would have to be re-recorded. But, as I’m not qualified to advise on pedagogical
strategies, I would like to hear from others who are, including John Potter (who directed NEMA’s singing
conference at the University of York in 2009) and Richard Wistreich (co-organiser of the recent Voices and Books
conference), who told me that he once directed an early music singing course in a German university. While
neither John nor Richard are HIPsters by any stretch of the imagination, both believe that musicians should learn
from history.
Richard Bethell I see that there was a further outbreak of hostilities yesterday in Thread V11. Robert Berger and
Nicholas Clapham, I go along with many of your comments and I do accept that you are absolutely right to like,
and stand up for, Cecilia Bartoli, Jennifer Larmore and Ann Hallenberg, as stellar performers in today’s operatic
tradition, which has been dominant for over a hundred years now, albeit they aren’t my cup of tea. As I’ve said
elsewhere, I would like to see an alternative paradigm based on an earlier historical record. Would you welcome
such diversity, or would you prefer to see it strangled at birth?
Robert Berger In fact I welcome stylistic diversity as much as anyone . But until someone invents a time
machine and we can hear what singers who lived before the time of recordings sounded like and what
their interpretive approaches were, I remain agnostic about "authenticity ".
Richard Bethell Thanks Robert. Has Nicholas Clapton removed himself from Historical Performance
Research, as his name doesn't come up?
Oliver Webber It's a long time since anyone used the term "authenticity", to be fair, though Robert. The
reason we talk about "historically informed" performance is that it is an achievable goal: it doesn't claim
time-machine magic, only to use *as much information as we can gather* to feed into our performance
choices. Even if we can't hear the great singers of the 17th and 18th centuries, by reading descriptions,
treatises and the rest we can still learn a huge amount. The quantity of information in these threads
alone is plenty to get thinking with!
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Richard Bethell I've just had a Facebook chat with Nicholas. He confirmed that he has left the Group. I
gather this is largely due to pressure of work. He has to catch up with his teaching and is writing an article
(perhaps a book) on falsetto. He will be greatly missed, as he's made a major contribution to the
discussion. However, he's given me permission to quote in this post his views on my question above, and
a later one in response to my post on Philippe Jaroussky’s and Julia Lezhneva's singing.
He takes a balanced position on my question above, as follows: "I would not like to see singing from a
"more historical standpoint" strangled at birth, not at all. I would just listen to both traditions, and form a
judgment, based on the criteria I have already mentioned, namely emotional engagement with text, what
I regard as true legato, and the ability to convince an audience vocally and histrionically."
Richard Bethell I’ll take up your point, Nicholas Clapton, that “it was a shame that no-one from the
none/less/judicious vibrato “school of singers” was taking part” in our discussion. The reason is quite simple.
There is no such school and consequently there are no such singers (more’s the pity). Such singing has emerged
on very rare occasions, either by some fluke or due to a momentary outbreak of good taste. This is true of most
singers on my Spotify playlist “Vibrato Free Classical Singing” , such as Philippe Jaroussky and Julia Lezhneva. Each
of these can individually monsterise baroque arias, Grand Uproar style, with the loudest of them. But they team
together well in Pergolesi’s suspension-laden Stabat Mater Dolorosa, producing beautiful, pure, clear sound. Note
also the excellent string playing; no left hand waggling here. Pierfrancesco Tosi and Pergolesi would have
approved. Their recording is at Tube at https://youtu.be/h9ZET0kU9qs
Philippe JAROUSSKY & Julia LEZHNEVA _ Pergolesi:…
youtube.com
Like · · Remove Preview · 2 · 11 February at 19:02
Richard Bethell Nicholas Clapton has authorised me to quote his views (interesting, heartfelt and cogently
expressed) on this YouTube recording, as follows:"I find it oddly disengaged, especially considering the subject matter. The stabs from the violins are bald
and have no direction, in fact I find the string introduction dull and featureless. I often see and hear
people write or say something like "oh, but the expression is already in the music", but I am NEVER
convinced by this. This performance is, for me, like light shining through a piece of glass cut to resemble a
precious stone, rather than through a gem like an amethyst, purple, but with flashes of another colour
(usually red) given to it by nature. This is intensely catholic music, and the singers show no "belief" in the
way they speak the words (I often have this problem with HIP performances of , say, Bach - the John Eliot
Gardiner cantatas are almost wholly "atheistic" to me)."
"One further thing I always like to keep in mind - we can be very informed about the past, we can
research and record evidence, and these things are fascinating and important. However, we are the
people we are now, with the experience of two more centuries of history (for good and ill), so we must
remember that nothing would or could prepare us for how utterly alien the world of Tosi and Bacilly, of
Farinelli and Mrs Bracegirdle, would be to us, and not just with regard to the small matter of singing."
Eric Yeo Richard, does this mean you have closed off all the other threads? Your system of using your final
comment as the index or reference for the thread will stop working the moment someone posts a new comment,
which then supersedes your "final" comment. There must be a better way. Suggestions anyone?
Esha Neogy My understanding was that the index/reference comments were meant to bring the threads
to the top of the feed at the same time, in which case any activity on a thread would serve the purpose.
Gathering them all at the top of the feed seems like a time-specific step so people can see them all for a
short while before they get spread out again. I may be wrong, but in any case I'm answering a couple of
weeks after the fact, so whatever's been done has had its effect already.
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George Kennaway Clicking on the timestamp at the top of the thread opens the whole thread in a new browser
window; this can then be saved as a web file, or the text copied and pasted into Word, or, if not too long, a
screenshot.
Eric Yeo That's a good suggestion, George, but to ensure it's up to date and complete, you would have to do it
again whenever new comments have been added.
George Kennaway Yes, that's the downside...
Eric Yeo Perhaps it's better to save the window as a web link (URL) instead of a web file, or was that what you
meant?
George Kennaway Whichever you prefer! If saved as a web file then it's available offline.
Eric Yeo Another option to consider and try (not sure if it works) is this.
The administrator creates a new pinned post that will always appear at the top of the page. The pinned post
would list an index of all the V threads, as Richard has done, and each V item includes a web link to its post (and
comment thread).
This pinned post can be updated from time to time whenever a new post and comment thread on vibrato is
added.
Esha Neogy This is certainly possible in principle, but would mean that only the index of V threads could
be readily available at the top of the page. Some sort of file would be better, if this group allows the
making of one as I mentioned in another subthread.
Richard Bethell Eric Yeo, re your earlier question, it certainly wasn't my intention to close off comments on earlier
threads. In fact, V3 and V11 have already been updated by comments on existing posts. So far, no one has
entered a new final comment; if they do, I'll simply delete mine and add a new one. I need to edit my original
post in this thread to make this clear.
Your last post sounds like a good idea to me, if the administrator is prepared to do it.
I'm also updating a Word file with new/changed threads as we go along. There may be a way of sharing this with
group members, or even more widely. After all Facebook posts are effectively in the public domain and part of
the historic record.
Esha Neogy I think it is possible to create some sort of file in some groups, though perhaps not to upload
an existing one. This may vary from group to group, though perhaps Facebook will provide the ability in
all groups eventually. In any case, if an administrator or whatever they're called can make a file in this
group, it could be used for listing links.
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Esha Neogy You could also consider creating a Yahoo! group which runs parallel to this one, where posts
(if you decide to have any) stay in chronological order and files can be uploaded. I think Google Docs,
Dropbox, and other services can also be used for public sharing, though I haven't used them that way
myself yet.
Eric Yeo Thanks Richard. Regarding your first point, you will always have the last word in every discussion, so to
speak!
Richard Bethell To those of you intending to comment on Sarah Potter's thesis, have you done your homework
yet? It's been a week. As my square bashing drill sergeant would have said, "Let's be aving you". Preferably, on
this thread (V14). The others are all dead, apart from V4 which is still twitching. I do appreciate it's a substantial
document of nearly 300 pages, not to mention the vocal examples.
I have copied all 14 threads into a Word file, which is 765,500 words long, and counting. This has huge
advantages over Facebook, as it is structured in a single file, with a table of contents, and searchable, [plus a
subject index]. For example Miriam Feuersinger, who I'm hoping will reply to a question raised in V4, comes up
on 9 occasions. Most of the links work. The only feature not available is which people have liked a particular post.
I raised above how to share it. I think the best way is if those of my Facebook friends wanting it would simply
send me a message (see Chat panel to bottom right of screen) with their email address. I will save these in
Outlook and send off a group email (Bcc) in a couple of weeks to you, with a Word attachment. I promise to use
the data responsibly, and I certainly won't pass it on to anyone else.
Esha Neogy I would like to see it and may send you my address at some point, though I admit I might be
more likely to read an edited version. By that I don't necessarily mean cut, but reorganized such that
repetition of points is minimised. Hmm, how to edit such a format to include the flow of conversation but
weave threads together, gather like points in one place, and minimise duplication? I must ponder!
Richard Bethell Thanks for this Esha Neogy. You are right. FB doesn't handle extended conversations very
well, although I too aren't a user of Yahoo, Google Docs or Dropbox. Certainly, an extended transcript has
drawbacks, although I'd argue that this has advantages as well, viz. immediacy, conversational truth and
readability. I've also added an introduction. A sober, academic account might also lose some of the wit
and strong emotion imbuing the content. But I do accept that an edited version would be good as well. Is
this something that George Kennaway or A N Other would be prepared to take on?
Like · · 1 · 25 February
Esha Neogy Well, perhaps leaving it as it is would be best. I have editing experience but would prefer to
defer to one or both of the people you suggest.
George Kennaway This is an interesting issue. I have a notion about what I might do, but I don't have time
at the moment. As long as no one deletes....
Like · · 1 · 25 February
Esha Neogy Yes, I remember that other big thread (though I've forgotten the topic) that the original
poster deleted. I'd kept a lot of the notifications from it in email, but I'd just deleted them before that,
figuring I should read the thread online and maybe copy it from there, so I couldn't send you any of it.
Bad timing! Generally I do keep some email notifications with substantive content.
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Richard Bethell Yes, George Kennaway, I think it would be brilliant if you could craft an edited version,
when you get time. Besides being well qualified professionally, you have adopted a neutral position on
the vibrato issue, being neither reformer nor status quo defender. Who knows, you might even get an
article or even a book out of it! Also, you asked the right question in Thread V1, which got many
contributors thinking. Has the controversy increased the numbers joining the group?
Like · · 26 February · Edited
Richard Bethell
21 January ·
YouTube
I like to hear pure, vibrato-free singing like this when I listen to baroque music. Also, it is supported by
the historical record, as Tosi, Burney and Richard Bacon would have approved of Feuersinger's sound.
Unfortunately, it is rare today, almost to vanishing point, mainly because the vocal hegemony (the
tyranny of the status quo) insists on constant vibrato, certainly in opera. Nicholas Clapton, are you able
to agree with me that this is beautiful singing, or is it rancid butter spread on good bread?
Christoph Graupner (1683-1760): Kantaten - Capricornus Consort Basel/Miriam Feuersinger
Christoph Graupner (1683-1760) Cantatas, Excerpts: I. Kantate "Ach Gott und Herr" GWV 1144/11: Choral…
youtube.com.
9Esha Neogy, David Reid Alker and 7 others
1 share
Comments
Nicholas Clapton For me, it is certainly a beautiful sound, but it is not beautiful singing, not least since there
seems to be absolutely no engagement with the text. If singing in Handel's operas were to have been like this, I
would have died of boredom.
Bob Mitchell So "engagement with the text" is necessary for all sung music? In such a world I would not
want to be a musician.
Christopher Price Pontifex So a thick wash of vibrato over everything is "engagement with the text"?
Nicholas Clapton Christopher Price Pontifex No. We have been here before smile emoticon
Christopher Price Pontifex So, a restrained vibrato (used mostly to emphasise certain words or phrases) is
not "engagement with the text"? I am having trouble understanding what is wrong with Ms Feuersinger's
performance otherwise. She is meditative when the text and music are meditative, joyful when the text
and music are joyful, sober when the music and text are sober (or sad), etc ... How is such expressive and
soulful singing limited and soulless? Maybe because she is not singing the music in a style that would be
indistinguishable from the modern manner of 19th century Italian opera style?
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Nicholas Clapton I don't agree at all. I find the performance dull and lifeless throughout. This is a matter
of degree and opinion, and I think that is all that can be said. For me, in the first movement the singer
might as well be a four-foot organ stop, and in the second when she is singing about "Qual und Jammer",
which I think you'll agree, are quite emotionally-charged words, she sounds like ... a four-foot organ stop.
Oddly, I notice vibrato first on the word "sind" ... why? In the next movement the melisma on "Gnade"
has no shaping, no phrasing, no detail, just pitches, to me it's just not "musical", whatever I mean by that
word (note that that last remark has nothing to do with "use of vibrato"). These are perhaps all matters
of my opinion and of my taste, and I claim nothing more for them. Within the German baroque tradition,
what do you make of this, which is much more to my taste - a beautiful voice, and, for me, beautiful
singing (I refer especially to the boy alto):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_QAoanXntw
J.S. Bach - Johannes-Passion - Es ist vollbracht - alto aria
youtube.com
Like · · Remove Preview · 28 February at 15:02
Nicholas Clapton No, I cannot agree that this is beautiful singing. It is certainly a beautiful, if very limited, sound,
but there seems to be absolutely no engagement with the text. If your idea is that Handel would have heard such
utterly soulless singing in his operas, I find this impossible to believe, documentary sources notwithstanding.
David Reid Alker I think that the difference with Handel is that he was using Italian singers whose passion for
beautiful and showy off singing was par for the course as in most instances his singers were in a competitive
atmosphere - always looking for the 'X' factor and their next gig! Bach's congregational audiences often
complained about his twiddly clever ornaments (Organ music) being over the top - I suspect the kind of singing in
north German churches' Lutheran tradition would have called upon a certain purity in the singing of the cantatas.
I suspect the voice was used much more, in these instances, as an instrumental colour, after all the whole
premise of the baroque was that the music was styled to carry the affections of the text.
Richard Bethell Thanks for this David Reid Alker. You make some good points, as did Martin Spaink who on 22 Jan
[Vibrato Wars, Thread V4] noted the "the similarity of instrumental parts and vocal parts in scores of papa Bach,
laden with trills and what-not". I do think, at the risk of incurring Nicholas Clapton's displeasure, that the
importance of words is often overstated. Rossini used to stress that music trumps libretto; somewhere else (can
anyone find the reference?) said he would be quite happy to compose good music to a directory of some sort.
Invariably, the text of an aria or cantata just provides the basic emotion to inspire the composer. The ACTION was
dealt with by recitative, which used to be spoken, but these days is invariably sung--and for that reason is utterly
unintelligible, which is why the libretto these days is normally shown on screen above the opera stage.
Amazing what you can find on the internet. What he said was: "Give me a shopping list and I'll set it to music"
according to The Rough Guide to the Opera".
Nicholas Clapton Richard, what do you mean by: " The ACTION was dealt with by recitative, which used to
be spoken, but these days is invariably sung--and for that reason is utterly unintelligible, which is why the
libretto these days is normally shown on screen above the opera stage." Recitative was never spoken - it
began, in monody, as an attempt to be speechLIKE, but was never spoken. If sung correctly, recitative is
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perfectly intelligible, but you have to know the language it is written in really well in order to follow it:
lack of such knowledge is the primary reason for surtitles in opera houses, though SOME singers mangle
text because of technical failings.
Richard Bethell A fair question, Nicholas Clapton. But, as you know by now, I never make a comment like
this unless it is backed up by the historical record. I advance the following, from the Puzzi translation of
Mancini (Edward V Foreman's is similar):- "It would be very improper for a singer to render it [both
"Semplice" and "Instrumentato" types of recitative] in "Messa di Voce" style, or to use "Portamento" in it.
Instead, he should say it plainly and naturally and distinguish its different moods only by slight inflection
of the voice, by giving and taking back the accent or by making the voice sweeter as any cultured man
does when he speaks or reads. [p.180/1]...Recitatives whether sacred or secular, must be rendered in the
same way, that is, with clear voice and naturally. Full value must be given to every word and each point
and comma distinguished well in order to convey the exact sense and poetry to the public. If there is to
be any difference, it will be relative to the amount of voice used, in proportion to the size of the place
where one is singing." You can find other examples in Robert Toft's Bel Canto. This surely means that
recitative was supposed to be spoken in musical tones; such descriptions are also inconsistent with
vibrato.
Nicholas Clapton I see your point, and would certainly agree that all singing, in the tradition of which we
are speaking, is an extension of speech, especially rhetorical speech (this was behind the "invention" of
monody, essentially an early attempt to render speech in song). The latter frequently becomes vibrant
(on stage, in a court of law, from a pulpit), and I return to my point about vibrancy resulting from
emotional import being different from applying a vibrato for effect. Having worked extensively (giving
lessons, choral workshops, and the like) with both amateur and professional voices, it strikes me very
forcibly that the breathing that a trained singer uses (i.e. really "filling" the lungs, rather than taking the
amount of breath the human body needs to survive - the former is about six times the latter), is a
development of the body's natural impulse to take more breath when the brain wishes to say something
of importance and/or over an extended period of time. My belief is that the very fact of putting about
three litres of air (a "singing breath") under the vocal cords has a lot to do with vibrancy in singing, in that
it is not least the body's way of managing the pressure of the air. What this boils down to is that I believe
that individual expression of text leads to vibrant singing, unless that is restrained for whatever reason.
The great difficulty is that a lot of nonsense has been taught about singing in general, and breathing in
particular (maybe for centuries, maybe especially since García). The pressure under the cords can be too
great or too little, muscles that have nothing whatever to do with breathing are brought into play, and
always the body tries to cope with the resultant muscular tensions - it will usually do this by producing
some sort of "movement" in the sound, not least in an attempt to release said tensions. Some will regard
that movement as healthy, some call it vibrato, some a wobble - the arguments can be endless, and by
the time a voice begins to "suffer", which can be decades later, it is too late to rectify matters.
Incidentally, with regard to performing recitative, I frequently find myself admonishing my vocal students
who disregard the notation of note values and rests - composers did know what they were doing!
Douglas Amrine But what does Rossini have to do with Handel or Bach or Graupner?
Nicholas Clapton He has a lot to do with Handel, the tradition is the same. By the way, Richard, I notice
you like Mr Alker's post, which includes this phrase: "the music was styled to carry the affections of the
text", but then write, in part of your response, that you believe "the importance of words is often
overstated". Rossini was such a fluent composer that I'm sure he could have set a shopping list to music,
and made it fascinating. I would also say that I cannot bear words that do have an "Affekt", an emotional
import, being sung like a shopping list. That is my "problem" with the singing example you posted at the
beginning of this thread: for me it is merely an agreeable noise.
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Douglas Amrine Hmmm . . . interesting theory, given the big gap in time and changes in performance
practice, instruments, theatres, compositional approaches etc.
Nicholas Clapton Not a theory, just my opinion, backed by some experience in singing and teaching both
professionally. The line of full-blown Italian "opera seria" is unbroken from decades before Handel to well
after the end of Rossini's operatic composing career.
Richard Bethell I agree with both your above comments. And, of course, words do count; all the treatises
emphasised their importance. Rossini was indeed the last defender of the baroque and early classical
vocal tradition. He supported this tradition strongly in the record made by Edmond Michotte in "An
Evening at Rossini's in Beau-Sejour 1858, when he attributed the decline of singing to the loss of the
castrati ("I have never forgotten them. The purity, the miraculous flexibility of those voices and, above all,
their profoundly penetrating accent"), disapproved of high Cs in chest voice, and attacked vibrato.
Oliver Webber Nicholas Clapton, an unbroken line of tradition is also true of certain schools of string
playing (Corelli to Viotti to Rode to Joachim and beyond, e.g.)- but we don't make assumptions about
Corelli based on how Joachim played, or even how Rode played. In fact Francois Habeneck, from the
generation after Rode at the Paris Conservatoire, when writing about ornamentation (this in 1843),
described current fashions and contrasted them specifically with Corelli's, saying "who nowadays would
play like this?" So an unbroken tradition, though fascinating in itself, does not preclude huge changes of
style, technique and aesthetic.
Nicholas Clapton I am well aware of that.
Oliver Webber I see- but I was curious about what you were driving at when you said that Rossini had a
lot to do with Handel.
Nicholas Clapton It is my opinion that, in spite of the difference in musical style (amongst many other
things), that there is an unbroken tradition of knowledge, training and opinion about what constituted
the highest quality of singing and writing for the voice in Italian serious opera from well before Handel
until well after Rossini had ceased to write operas.
Esha Neogy I don't have time to look right now, but I'd be interested to compare other recordings of this piece.
Bob Mitchell I won't take part in (or cause) arguments about taste, and only have this to say. There's a huge
divide between us, and each to their own.
Bob Mitchell Leaving aside music, I actually think that there's a good case for putting performers behind curtains
as was frequently done in the past. This would ensure that soloists don't "act up" to the music. Looking at the
previous Bach video, I also have this to say. I rarely go to concerts, and a big pause before or after anything
happens makes me think "aw come on I'm paying for this and I could be getting my supper or doing something
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else". Also on another non-musical issue, I find it impossible to "engage with text" despite having sung and
studied Latin Masses for most of my life (I'm not a believer) and likewise some of the texts to the Bach cantatas
leave me totally cold...as they would for a lot of people if they had translations. Finally, I was subjected to
Shakespeare at school against my will and developed a lifelong loathing for it. So if I hear any sung I'm sure to
make a quick exit. Basically I do not like literature...or religion, but give me a shopping list (as somebody like
Rossini said) and I could set it to impressive five-part polyphony. Even the bits that involve bin-liners and toilet
rolls...because to me musical text is just a shopping-trolley for well-crafted music.
[The following, from Richard Bethell’s timeline, includes a video of Richard Suart actually SPEAKING recitative in
approved 18th Century style. The words are so clear, you don’t need the ENO script on screen]
Richard Bethell shared English National Opera's video.
9 March at 12:16 ·
206,036 Views
English National Opera added a new video I've Got a Little List (with lyrics) / The Mikado / Gilbert an...
22 January ·
From Jeremy Clarkson to Jeremy Corbyn, watch Richard Suart list his nominees for the Lord High
Executioner's chop during The Mikado. Hope you enjoy!
See The Mikado live at the London Coliseum until 6 Feb - find out more: https://goo.gl/khWCLE
1Mike Bayliss
Comments
Richard Bethell Richard Suart is actually giving us a master class in how to speak recitative, not only in comic
opera, but serious opera as well. Giambattista Mancini, in his Practical Reflections, makes it crystal clear that
recitative should be spoken, not sung. Thanks Robin Bigwood for inviting me to your page, where I discovered
this excellent rendering of "I've got a Little List". As it is spoken, not sung, there is no vibrato.
Mancini says: "Now the cantilena of the one [orchestrally accompanied] and the other [with figured bass] of
these recitatives, however intoned, should always be loosened in such a manner that it resembles a perfect and
simple spoken declamation. Thus it would be a defect if the actor, instead of speaking the recitative with a free
voice, should wish to sing it, tying the voice continuously, and not think of ever distinguishing the periods and the
diverse sense of the words by holding back, reinforcing, detaching and sweetening the voice, as a gifted man will
do when he speaks or reads."
Like · 1 · 9 March at 12:34 · Edited
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V15. Bec Duggan, launched 1 March 2016
Bec Duggan
1 March at 17:26
Hello all, I'm trying to look into 17th century singing treatises, does anyone have any advice on where to
start (most used/informative/popular). I'm quite new to all of this so would greatly appreciate the help!
Thank you.
Like You, Eric Yeo and 5 others
Comments
Eric Yeo Aargh!!!! Are Vibrato Wars going to break out again?!!!
A wealth of information in this link.
https://m.facebook.com/groups/191697164197355?view=permalink&id=1120388454661550
Unlike · · 1 · 1 March at 17:40 · Edited
Thalie Knights Luke Green ?
Like · · 1 March at 17:31
Kate Brown Caccini Le Nuove Musiche (1602) , and Pier Francesco Tosi Opinioni (1723) at either end of the
century, are good places to start. Tosi I like because he was translated by Galliard into English in 1743 and by
Agricola into German in 1757, and each of them adds a new aspect.
Unlike · · 2 · 1 March at 17:36
Bec Duggan Kate Brown thank you so much, that's great!
Oliver Webber If you are looking at the 17th century there is also Francesco Rognoni (1620) , Christoph Bernhard
(mid-century- will check) and Benigne de Bacilly (c1670) . Both the latter are available online- if you can't find
them I can dig out specific links when I'm not on my phone. Also an interesting complement to Caccini would be
Bovicelli (1590s) .
Like · · 2 · 1 March at 17:49
Ellen Eley http://imslp.org/...//imslp.org/wiki/Category:Composers
Category:Composershttp://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Composers - IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free...
February 16, 2016 is IMSLP's 10th Anniversary! New mirrors and a new download speed test is now available to
speed up downloads from IMSLP.
imslp.org
Bruce Dickey If you're going as far back as 1590, the most interesting source is the Prattica di musica of Lodovico
Zacconi, 1596, available on IMSLP.
Like · · 4 · 1 March at 17:58
Richard Bethell The IMSLP source is in the original Italian. I have Edward V Foreman's English translation,
with a useful introduction headed "Dealing with Zacconi", originally published by Foreman's Pro Musica
Press.
Ellen Eley composers A to Z lots of scores on here
Like · · 1 · 1 March at 17:58
Oliver Webber Here's the Bernhard: https://www.uco.edu/.../historical.../Bernhard%202.pdf
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Julia Fredersdorff Great to know this is online. Thanks!
Luke Green Bacilly is one very close to my heart, as it relates music closely to language and expression, and is one
of the first treatises to do so.
Like · · 2 · 1 March at 18:47
Neil Coleman In addition to Bacilly's l'Art de bien chanter there's Dowland's Andreas Ornithoparcus, Michael
Praetorius's Instructions for Singers from Syntagma musicum, and Mersenne's How to Train Voices from his
Harmonie universelle.
Like · · 1 · 1 March at 21:48 · Edited
Klaus Miehling Friderici, Herbst and Crüger, published together in "Deutsche Gesangstraktate des 17.
Jahrhunderts" (Bärenreiter). But Bacilly is certainly the most informative in this century.
Klaus Miehling Butler: "The Principles of Musik in Singing and Setting". There is also something on the first pages
of Mace's "Musick's Monument", but restricted to singing in Churches.
Butler is also informative on EME pronunciation, since he uses a reformed spelling.
Richard Bethell Pietro Reggio. The Art of singing or A Treatise, wherein is shown how to Sing well any song
whatsoever. This small booklet is also slender in content, mostly devoted to a single idea: sing softly on high
notes, but more loudly on low notes. He sang for Pepys once. I can't download it from anywhere but you can find
a copy in the British Library.
Richard Bethell This thread (which I've labelled V15 and added to my Word file of the complete "Vibrato Wars"
debate) is a useful addition as it contains 100% useful data with zero disputation, confounding Eric Yeo's
expectations.
Like · · 3 · 3 March at 18:28
Eric Yeo Indeed, Richard! But there's a wealth of information in this thread. I was thinking of saving it as a
PDF or a Word file. Are you going to reissue your expanded Word file? That would be much appreciated!
Richard Bethell I do agree this is an especially useful Vibrato Wars thread. I'll be reissuing in a couple of
days, when actual dates and times will be displayed, rather than the number of hours which have passed,
such as "23 hrs", which is unhelpful as a historic record. We are thinking about making it downloadable
from the NEMA website, and periodically updating with a Version Number. After all, FB posts are public.
Like · · 1 · 4 March at 18:14
Neil Coleman Roger North has a few things to say on singing at the end of the century. [End of Thread V15]
Like · · 1 · 3 March at 22:07
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V16. George Kennaway, launched 4 March 2016
George Kennaway
4 March at 17:20
It's been a bit quiet around these parts, so I thought I'd post this link to extracts from Margaret Blake
Alverson's 'Sixty Years of California Song',
Sunset Publishing, San Francisco, 1913, pp. 172-178. "Very few singers of today are provided with real
vocal technic. They learn to scream one note at a time. A short life and a merry one, great glory and
great salaries, sacrificing their voices at the demand for big tone. Perhaps they rejoice in a brief season.
Afterwards their names are forgotten. … In the year 1907 I cured twenty-five young people, both girls
and boys, of this dreadful habit, which seems to be the death knell of all our California young singers.
Every one of them became addicted to this habit through wrong instruction by persons who were not
teachers at all in the true sense of the word, not knowing the construction of the voice themselves so as
to lead the pupil into the proper channel, having lost their own voices by these methods they were not
competent to instruct others. "
Mrs. Alverson on Vocal Vibrato
Margaret Blake Alverson, a noted soprano and voice teacher in the late 19th century, describes how vibrato was
viewed in the classical music world of that time.
standingstones.com|By Michael Robinson
Comment
Share
16Klaus Miehling, Mike Bayliss and 14 others
Comments
Mike Bayliss You think we haven't had enough Vibrato Wars yet, then, George?! (And I'm afraid that
same perceived need for 'big tone' has also pervaded wind instrument technique and manufacture from
the 19th century to the present day. Maybe accounts for why so many of us like early music.)
George Kennaway OK I'm being mischievous. But I'm very interested in what she says about 'curing' people vibrato is increasingly often talked of in terms of disease (possibly with a sub-text of sexual depravity) in the early
20th century. When people talk thus, there's more at stake than just what it sounds like.
Like · · 1 · 4 March at 17:50
Kate Bennett Wadsworth Cool!
John Irving In 1907, there was a cure !
Like · · 4 · 4 March at 19:10
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George Kennaway I think it would have involved cold showers.
Like · · 1 · 4 March at 20:24
Job Ter Haar She makes it sound as if corn flakes might help.
Richard Bethell In 1830 the best singers’ voices were praised as sweet, pure and clear. Over the next 70 years,
music was performed in equal temperament, using a wider range of keys, in ever larger spaces, by bigger voices
and orchestras. Wind and brass instruments got louder and needed extra holes/keys to cope with increasingly
difficult music. The drawback, as Mike Bayliss notes, was a coarsening of both instrumental and vocal sound.
Vocally, we saw the introduction of tenore di forza, and later on, heldentenors, the suppression of falsetto singing
(by women as well as men) , the gradual replacement of “nightingales” by dramatic sopranos, and, above all, the
growth of vibrato. Some singers were taken to task for thick, throaty or guttural singing, usually described today
as laryngeal development.
While most vocalists were using vibrato around 1880, there was some straight-toning around in the previous
decade. Who was the last? Melitta Otto-Alvsleben is a good candidate, to my mind. She was prima donna in the
late 1870s at the Dresden Court Opera and Hamburg City Theatre. During a visit to England in 1873-4, her
oratorio singing was praised three times in terms which leave little doubt that she used a default straight toned
voice: (1) “was sung very sweetly, and with a pure, clear tone, devoid of the objectionable tremolo in which many
foreign artists like to indulge” (Leeds Mercury, 17 Mar 1873) (2) “Her voice is strong and agreeable in quality,
although a certain flutiness of timbre, a want of the fine, mordant, reedy quality that we notice in most of the
great soprani, makes her singing lose in absolute distinctness of outline what it gains in perhaps rather insipid
sweetness.” (Atlantic Monthly, 26 Jul 1873) (3) “Singing more absolutely perfect in tune we think we have never
heard. We are not certain, however, whether, in these days of the vibrato, so much used and abused as to be
almost universal, this very steady purity of tone does not give to her singing a certain coldness to ears depraved
by listening to singers who indulge in the vicious practice which is so prevalent. Whether or not, we hope that we
shall still be able to count upon her as representing a school of singing where purity of tone and truthfulness of
intonation were of, at least, equal importance with vocal facility, and far above mere meretricious trickery of
whatever kind.” (Manchester Guardian, 7 Nov 1874). Would any German speaking contributor (Perhaps Klaus
Miehling who has studied vibrato) be able to provide any notices of her singing in Dresden and Hamburg which
either confirm or disprove my conclusions?
Like · · 3 · 8 March at 15:45
Richard Bethell Although vibrato/ tremolo singing was universal from 1905, singers and vocal teachers like
Margaret Blake Alverson, music critics, competition adjudicators, and members of the public in letters to the
press, continued to issue lengthy diatribes condemning the vibrato epidemic. Strangely, it was sometimes
claimed that it had been cured. Professor Edward Dickerson was reported in the Elyria Evening Telegram Ohio (6
April 1910) as saying that “The fashion of singing with a tremulo, is a nerveless, spineless thing, now happily fallen
into disuse, among our best singers”. As late as June 1924, Dr Geoffrey Shaw was quoted thus in the Leamington
Spa Courier:- “Any singer who suffered from the “wobbles” (he would not dignify it by terming it vibrato) stood
no chance of being taken any notice of by adjudicators to-day; it was old-fashioned before the war.”
I’ve discovered that Spotify is a useful tool for researching vocal sound in the 20th Century; I only need to paste a
singer’s name in the search box to listen to his or her singing. It is clear to me that pitch oscillation gradually
increased from a semitone or so from peak to trough in 1905, to around a tone or a minor third today. However,
it would be good to discover technology allowing me to measure the degree of oscillation more accurately,
ideally using Spotify or YouTube as input. Can anyone recommend a suitable software program? Preferably one
not infested with technical jargon impenetrable to anyone but a trained vocal scientist or sound engineer.
Like · · 2 · 8 March at 15:46
George Kennaway Sonic visualiser
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Richard Bethell Thanks, George, I'll try that.
[I also sent the same question to my FB friend Gary Andrews, who made my video on 19thC vibrato to accompany
a conference paper, both of which are available on the University of York’s website. Gary is a musician, a director
of Egotrip Media Ltd, and expert in all matters to do with film, sound and related technology. I thought I would
share his response. RIB]
Gary Andrews. Not sure of any 'non-techy' softwares that would do that. You could have a poke about in
Audible… that has a few bits and bobs which might read those [Spotify and YouTube sound sources].
8 March 18:18
Richard Bethell Thanks for that, Gary. I'll try Audible.
8 March at 18:21
George Kennaway The Seashore paper on vibrato from the 30s is still worth reading, BTW, especially on the
difference between actual and perceived pitch variation (the latter being smaller). [End of thread V16]
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V17. Ben Palmer, launched 7 March 2016
Ben Palmer
7 March at 13:13 · London, United Kingdom
I hope some of you may be interested to hear excerpts from a new CD with my chamber choir The Syred
Consort, featuring the premiere recordings of four choral/orchestral works by Antonio Lotti, including
the Mass from which the famous eight-part Crucifixus is drawn. (To add fuel to the vibrato vs nonvibrato debate...we don't really use any!) Listen here: www.thesyredconsort.org, and should you want
to hear more, the disc is available to pre-order here:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Delphian/DCD34182
WELCOME
The Syred Consort is a hand-picked chamber choir bringing together some of the finest young professional singers
in London under the direction of conductor Ben Palmer. Founded in 2007, the Consort's repertoire is diverse,
ranging from the Renaissance to the present day, often featuring soloists draw…
thesyredconsort.org
Comment
Share
7Klaus Miehling, Mike Bayliss and 5 others
Comments
Klaus Miehling Excellent singing and playing, as far as it is possible with the modern instruments.
Like · 7 March at 19:36
Richard Bethell Certainly, no vibrato apart from some tenor quivering in the Agnus Dei, 55 seconds in. Straight
singing is appropriate for this expressive, dissonant, suspension rich music. Well sung and played.
Like · 2 · 8 March at 11:16
Mike Bayliss We should start taking vibratometers to concerts!
Like · · 1 · 8 March at 11:49
Klaus Miehling Isn't there a smartphone app? grin emoticon. [End of Thread V17]
Like · · 1 · 8 March at 14:51
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V18. George Kennaway, launched 11 March 2016
George Kennaway
11 March at 14:42 ·
Strad Comment
I just can't resist it. From last year.
Did early string players use continuous vibrato? - The Strad
Focus: Did early string players use continuous vibrato? Contrary to current thinking, a light vibrato was the order
of the day for 18th-century musicians,…
www.thestrad.com
CommentShare
21Robert Berger, Massimiliano Di Mario and 19 others
1 share
Comments
Christopher Suckling Bah. The problem is much older than the 18th century. "In particular, I attempt to
demonstrate the wonderfully reconstructed 2500 year old vibrato mechanism, for which there is an almost
overwhelming body of visual evidence to support this theory".
http://www.ancientlyre.com/.../the_ancient_greek_kithara.../
Michael Levy - Composer for Lyre | Ancient Music - Revived! | Ancient…
ancientlyre.com
Christopher Suckling The response linked to at the end of the article is worth a read. Richard Bethell has compiled
a collection of nineteenth century English criticism of string vibrato. I'm not sure if it's been published. The variety
of critical opinion displayed within a single decade in a single country should caution us against drawing too many
conclusions from the relatively few sources available to us from the eighteenth century.
Richard Bethell Yes Christopher Suckling, I sent this file to you five years ago, but only to 2 or 3 other
people. If any of my FB friends would like an updated version, please send me a chat message with their
email address. It was a by-product of my research on 19th Century vocal vibrato, where (even today) HIP
is almost totally absent.
Like · · 13 March at 16:39 · Edited
Richard Bethell Playing by string soloists and ensembles tends to be more informed, certainly since the
millennium. For example, Alina Ibragimova performed Bach's solo violin sonatas and partitas
expressively, without any vibrato at all. The Chiaroscuro Quartet has recorded early classical string
quartets with occasional expressive vibrato, a major step forward from the Amadeus String Quartet's
renderings, which to my ear are ugly, strenuous, stentorian (concert hall sized), with continuous wobbling
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on all long notes. Other more historically aware quartets include Armida, Eroica, Emergence, London
Haydn, and Quatuor Mosaïques. A few even seem to use authentic instruments and dispense with chin
rests. I found some of these groups on YouTube's Historically Informed Videos.
Christopher Suckling Also, "consequently with a light, delicate bow stroke, which yields a tone that might be
described as thin and lacking in colour." No. Just no.
Like · · 5 · 11 March at 15:11
Job Ter Haar "Because a stringed instrument played loudly without vibrato is displeasing, we play with subdued
volume" That's not only untrue, it's a very weird remark. And who are "we"?
Like · · 8 · 11 March at 15:46
Job Ter Haar Besides, it's the usual windmill-fighting. Since last week there were quite a few posts with videos of
the Harnoncourts. Vibrato all over the place! Same with the Kuijken brothers [Barthold, Sigiswald, Wieland],
Anner Bylsma, Reinhard Goebel, Jaap ter Linden, and I could make a long list here. Since the 80's things calmed
down a bit on the left hand side, but nowadays I think there are very few HIP players who play without or who
think or say that "we" should play without.
Mark Bailey I don't think it was ever really a point of playing without vibrato, as much as using vibrato differently.
Like · · 5 · 11 March at 16:12
Jon Baxendale Yes. Agreed. But we must make a distinction between vibrato and allowing something
much subtler that provides a more cantabile effect.
The same can be said of clavichords, and whilst I subscribe to the thought that bebung should be used
sparingly, it is nevertheless extremely inviting and cannot be ignored totally in melodic lines.
The whole argument boils down to good taste, rather than the modern approaches employed by modern
players.
Like · · 1 · 11 March at 17:09
Massimo Mazzeo so let say that the question here is to play or not to play with "continuous" vibrato. With or
without vibrato is not even a question, because it is proven that at least since the half of 18 Century, string
players were using a vibrato, intended as "xchange of pitch". You can see this in many treatises and on almost any
score of the time.
Like · · 2 · 11 March at 16:11
Nuno Atalaia Rodrigues I think Mark Bailey, said it best in his short remark.
The question is not "with or without" but simply acknowledging that what vibrato meant changed with each
historical stage, and even with regional differences.
If we accept that then we can begin to ask more interesting questions such as: which vibrato do we want? why do
we want it? what does this or that vibrato change in the music?
Like · · 7 · 11 March at 16:16
Massimo Mazzeo Olá Nuno. Bravo e um Abraço!
Like · · 1 · 11 March at 17:15
Nicholas Riddle To me, it is interesting that "we" and others interested in this field talk quite a lot about the
vibrato issue. The thing that seems to me to be missing from so much period performance style is portamento. It
seems interesting that this is (from my point of view) so comprehensively ignored compared with the focus on
vibrato.
Like · · 8 · 11 March at 17:06
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Massimo Mazzeo Well said; interesting issue indeed, both on vocal and instrumental extent. Tosi makes
good remarks on it (voice) whether about instrumental side is amusing to read that English violin players
were greatly criticized for making too many portamentos in each bar.
Christopher Suckling I think much has to do with vibrato being such an integral part of modern tone
production both vocally and instrumentally. Talk of change therefore can get rather personal.
Portamento, on the other hand, is an almost lost art. Although I did hear the Bergen Symphony under
Andrew Litton attempt some in Rach 2 on the radio last night. Baby steps. Mhairi Lawson will be giving a
paper on late eighteenth century vocal portamento at the RMA conference at GSMD in the autumn.
Like · · 1 · 11 March at 17:52
Mhairi Lawson Christopher Suckling Abstract
The use of ‘portamento’ in late eighteenth century vocal chamber music
Pier Francesco Tosi (165 –1732) , Johann Friedrich Agricola (1720-1774) and Domenico Corri (1746-1825)
all write about the use of vocal portamento in their publications of 1723, 1757 and 1809. The terms they
use vary and include appoggiatura, appuyer, port de voix, portamento, portare la voce, dragging of the
voice, slurred division.
This paper will provide a short introduction to the aforementioned musicians, their context in musical
history and their writings.
Domenico Corri’s ‘Singers’ Preceptor’ contains suggested editorial appoggiaturas and portamenti in
Haydn’s ‘She never told her love’ and ‘My mother bids me bind my hair’. The differences in approach to
performance preparation and implications for singing technique will be discussed, alongside a
comparison of urtext editions and those of Corri’s.
Examples of notated portamenti appear in Mozart’s ‘Das Veilchen’, ‘An Chloe’ and ‘Ridente la calma’ as
well as Haydn’s ‘The Wanderer’ (amongst other songs) – to what extent did these composers expect the
singer to add their own?
How do we respond to the writings of these musicians as 21st century singers? Do we defer to our
modern tastes or do we do more than peer through these windows of performance practice and actually
incorporate these stylistic techniques into our performances? In doing so, how might our audiences
react? More importantly for students, how would an audition panel react?
This paper proposes that 21st century singers, instead of delivering ‘clean’, ‘classical’ performances of
late 18th century songs, must engage with techniques more readily associated with bel canto opera.
Like · · 7 · 11 March at 18:01
Christopher Suckling Thanks, Mhairi. I am totally looking forward to it! To present my attempts at
introducing portamento to string students (at another institution) have resulted in mirth followed by the
admission that attempting such techniques have made them rethink the music.
Like · · 4 · 11 March at 18:06
Mhairi Lawson Looking forward to scoffing and arguments!!
Like · · 1 · 11 March at 18:10
Tormod Dalen Christopher, I can relate to that... Frustrating, isn't it?
Like · · 2 · 11 March at 21:07
Christopher Suckling I'd scoff and argue, Mhairi, but I'll probably be agreeing with you...
Like · · 1 · 11 March at 21:33
Mhairi Lawson And having just done performances of Haydn s Creation with Richard Egarr - the strings of
the symphony orchestra did some lovely portamento as did we three singers, and at the same time!
Like · · 4 · 11 March at 22:08
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Oliver Webber Campagnoli, 1824.. More later!
Greta Haenen There are even 17th-century violin exercises using portamento
Oliver Webber I didn't know that- can you tell me more?
Massimiliano Di Mario Saint-Saens says vibrato was used as an EFFECT.. just like in singing.. nobody wants to hear
vibrato all the time, this is just musical taste. You can tell by the 20th century’s top-loved singers (not classical)
that people don't like heavy vibrato all the time.. but it is very useful for hiding poor performance and making
everything sound more dramatic.. so maybe that's why it's become the norm.
Bar Haimov Well, CPE Bach tells us that his most revered father played the violin "with a clear tone"... I find it
hard to believe that such 'clear tone' can be achieved using continuous vibrato....
Christopher Price Pontifex I can remember my late father, a big fan of Verdi, etc ..., in the 1980s and
1990s referring to the "pure voice" and "pure tone" of some of his favourite operatic sopranos who, to
my ears, were dreadful wobblers (very heavy vibrato). By the same token, I think of the vocal tone of
Krizstina Laki in Sgiswald Kuijken's recording of Handel's Partenope as being pure, despite the
objectionable level of vibrato she used. Descriptions like pure and luminous and clear are not good
indicators that what was actually being heard was vibrato-free or reduced vibrato.
Nicholas Riddle Well, that surely depends on what "a clear tone" meant. It wasn't necessarily a comment on
vibrato. Even if it were, that wouldn't necessarily determine all the performance practice of the period. Others
might have done it differently.
Christopher Price Pontifex I thought that is what I said smile emoticon
Esha Neogy Christopher, sometimes people forget to expand the sub-threads. smile emoticon
Rebecca Limehouse I can't remember the exact quote, but Leopold Mozart wrote something like "Players there
are who tremble constantly, as with the palsy!"
Artis Wodehouse Mark Katz puts forth the interesting idea that continuous vibrato became a standard
performance practice in response to the way violin playing was captured in early
recordings:http://www.amazon.com/Capturing-Sound.../dp/0520261054
Capturing Sound: How Technology Has Changed Music
amazon.com
Like · · 1 · 11 March at 22:31
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Robert Dawson Historical pros and cons notwithstanding, continuous vibrato is an abomination, both in voices
and on strings.
Bar Haimov Nicholas Riddle, I'm not saying he was talking specifically about vibrato, I'm saying it's impossible to
play with a clear tone if there is excessive vibrato.
Nicholas Riddle Fair point: one should be against anything excessive on principle. smile emoticon
Like · · 1 · 11 March at 22:59
Bar Haimov smile emoticon
Like · · 1 · 11 March at 22:59
Robert Dawson And now that I've read the whole article, I still regard continuous, persistent vibrato as an
abomination ... especially the "persistent" sort. A vibrato that ticks long constantly, however light, is incompatible
with good tuning. It has NO place in polyphony or "close harmony" and is frankly unimpressive in solo singing or
playing. And most of my favorite singers are NOT guilty of that continuous light vibrato described by the author as
"natural."
Elizabeth S Lane Interesting article making us all ponder the role and usage of vibrato, once again, thanks for
posting, George.
Roland Hutchinson Whenever I see "contrary to current thinking" in the lead paragraph of an article, I mentally
translate to, "despite what some people thought 40 years or so ago".
It's not a bad heuristic, and it would seem to be not entirely inapplicable here.
Note also that the article itself is ten years old.
Bob Mitchell I suggest a sort of homeopathic cure: get hold of an average piece of Haydn or Mozart that involves
voices. Perform it far too slowly with "singers" whose idea of vibrato is far worse that that usually heard with
Beethoven 9. Add a string orchestra that's far too big and which also does things like random slithering around
between notes. Oh and maybe a Hammond organ with a vibrato button and bossa nova too, and then record it
with the movements separated by "readings" like you get in provincial British concert-halls when there's not
enough rehearsed music. Add a flamboyant choral conductor, record it as a CD, and then sell it...
Bruce Dickey I couldn't manage to read the whole thing. This passage set my nerves on edge: "In early texts,
vibrato can range from barely perceptible to one employing such distant microtones as to sound out of tune.
Because our ears have been fine tuned by exposure to world-class artists, no musician today would use the latter.
Before recording technology, however, musicians with good ears were much more exceptional." Every assertion
here is just about opposite to the truth. Measurements in the 1950s showed that well-regarded opera singers
frequently displayed vibratos of as much as a major third. I do still think though, that some kind of persistent or at
least very frequent "vibrato" (if we must use that term) is not incompatible with good tuning. On that point I
believe M. Praetorius and L. Zacconi agree with me. The problem is in our understanding of the word "light".
Like · · 3 · 12 March at 11:48
Greta Haenen "You don't need it, but it helps in starting coloratura. And if you ave it, it turns into nature".
And think of the voce humana in 16th-c organs.
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Bruce Dickey Yes, of course, though anything applied to the organ becomes far less subtle and flexible
than it would be when sung or used on string or wind instruments.
Bruce Dickey And the "light" tremolo that I am referring to would probably be so slight than many today
would consider it a straight tone.
Bruce Dickey I don't play the cornetto entirely without vibrato, though I doubt that many people who
aren't cornettists would perceive it as a vibrato.
Bruce Dickey People often ask me to demonstrate it, but as soon as I try, or really as soon as I think of it
as a "vibrato" it is too much.
Massimiliano Di Mario In a world where there is so much competition you would think musicians would jump on
this information but no.... The ego can't handle starting from scratch I suppose
Bruce Dickey What information do you refer to here? I'm sorry but I don't understand your comment.
Massimiliano Di Mario I am referring to performing with no vibrato, not lifting the bow constantly, singing
without excessive vibrato and paying attention to diction and intonation etc.
David Tayler Physicists would say that everything in the universe is vibrating, including nonsense.
Like · · 3 · 12 March at 17:45
Ricardo Souza Melo I remember reading some original documents that mentioned an oscillation of pitch that
should be used as ornament with great discretion and discernment by the performer. That would be a completely
different animal from what we call vibrato today.
Like · · 1 · 12 March at 18:33
Massimiliano Di Mario In a world where there is so much competition you would think musicians would jump on
this information but no.... The ego can't handle starting from scratch I suppose
Gail Ford Always thought vibrato was a later invention. Well, you live and you learn.
Richard Bethell Parts of Beverley Jerold's article are complete nonsense, to the extent of actually turning the
truth upside down in places, for example, where she manages to give the impression that Robert Bremner
approved of a light continuous vibrato. She says: "Bremner argues against a tremolo that is out of tune, one that
resembles the unsteady voice of a wayward singer. Nothing suggests that he objects to the light vibrato meant to
imitate the human voice. Moreover, he finds the melody ‘not deficient’ when this tremolo is omitted by good
performers: the same cannot be said of one played without light vibrato."
In fact, Robert Bremner was vehemently opposed to continuous tremolo either by solo violinists or ensemble
performers, although he conceded that "the application of it [tremolo] may, for the sake of variety, be admitted
at times on a long note in simple melody; yet, if it be introduced into harmony, where the beauty and energy of
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the performance depend upon the united effect of all the parts being exactly in tune with each other, it becomes
hurtful." For a balanced commentary on Bremner, see Clive Brown's Classical & Romantic Performing Practice
1750--1900.
I've transcribed Bremner's complete article from the Edinburgh Amusement of June 1777. If FB friends would
message me their email address, I'm happy to send it to you.
Like · · 4 · 13 March at 17:41
John Moraitis Dear Richard, I would be grateful if you could e-mail me your transcription of Bremner.
Richard Bethell Will do, John, in a few days when this thread (V18) settles down.
Like · · 1 · 13 March at 17:52
John Moraitis Thank you very much!
Robert Dawson Exactly, Richard Bethell! Thanks!
Elizabeth S Lane I would appreciate it, also, I will message you my email addr. Thank you!
David Tayler I was trying to think about why this article is nibbling at me, and I figured it out. It's the "straw man"
argument that leads off--or, perhaps, we should say "straw person." Even if we added a few footnotes to the
straw people to provide them with a sort of academic livery, we would still be dealing with straw, and part of the
difficulty with the straw people, or straw persons, is that the kind of consensus you find building with such a
rhetorical device is hard to find as you go back in time. Nonetheless, it's always an interesting topic and it's worth
considering as we sink into the layers of vibrato that are now everywhere.
Like · · 1 · 13 March at 18:42
Massimiliano Di Mario Saint-Saens talks about vibrato..the lack of it.. Franchomme did not play with vibrato. Can
you imagine a cellist today who plays straight notes? Impossible?
Robert Dawson Easy. There are many cellists who do NOT play with a constant vibrato, though they can
and will use vibrato tastefully as a proper ornament. Most of them [are] of the HIPP sort ... but then the
greatest of all cello compositions are the Bach suites, right? Any cellist playing the Bach suites with
constant vibrato should be sent back to conservatory.
Like · · 1 · 14 March at 02:55
Robert Dawson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IixGu5dZnZk
Jean-Guihen Queyras: Bach Cello Suite 2 -…
youtube.com
Like · · 1 · 14 March at 02:57
Robert Dawson Queyras plays a modern cello, but notice his HIPP style! His vibrato is focused on those
sustained notes that want such ornamentation, and it's always variable in its vibrating frequency.
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Robert Dawson And watch Gaillard's fingers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poCw2CCrfzA
Ophélie Gaillard, Bach, Prelude, Cello suite n. 1
youtube.com
Robert Dawson Here's more Gaillard, showing how artfully and chastely she uses vibrato even on musical
Schmaltz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=606hauh9tk8
Manuel de Falla 'Jota' live // Ophélie Gaillard, cello
youtube.com
Massimiliano Di Mario Another plague in the modern execution of music is the abuse of the tremolo by
both singers and instrumental performers. With singers, this quivering is often the result of a fatigued
voice, in which case it is involuntary and is only to be deplored; but that is not the case with violin and
violoncello players. It is a fashion with them born of a desire to make an effect at any cost, and is due to
the depraved taste of the public for a passionate execution of music; but art does not live on passion
alone. In our time, when art, through an admirable evolution, has conquered all domains, music should
express all, from the most perfect calm to the most violent emotions. When one is strongly moved the
voice is altered, and in moving situations the singer should make his voice vibrate. Formerly the German
female singers sang with all their voice, without any vibration in the sound and without any reference to
the situation; one would say they were clarinets. Now, one must vibrate all the time. I heard the
Meistersingers' quintette sung in Paris. It was dreadful and the composition incomprehensible. Not all
singers, fortunately, have this defect, but it has taken possession of violinists and 'cello players. That was
not the way Franchomme, the 'cello player and collaborator of Chopin, played, nor was it the way
Sarasate, Sivori or Joachim played.
I have written a concerto, the first and last movements of which are very passionate. They are separated
by a movement of the greatest calm,—a lake between two mountains. Those great violin players who do
me the honor to play this piece, do not understand the contrast and they vibrate on the lake just as they
do on the mountains. Sarasate, for whom this concerto was written, was as calm on the lake as he was
agitated on the mountains; nor did he fail on this account to produce always a great effect—for there is
nothing like giving to music its veritable character. (Saint-Saens)
Job Ter Haar Robert Dawson anyone who is playing so slowly that he/she has time for vibrato in the
prelude of the first suite should be sent back to the conservatory smile emoticon
Greta Haenen No they didn't. If a composer wanted orchestral vibrato he would write bow vibrato. And if
somebody like Geminiani states that one of his vibrati may be used as often as possible; this excludes continuous
vibrato (and "as often as possible" is not all too often if you come to think of it). Look at French viol scores with
marked vibrato and you get an idea about solo playing. There are a few instances in Walther's violin sonatas
(really not many!) and sort of in Beethoven's time there is a movement backward towards a very restricted use
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of vibrato (there seems to have been a bit more in the late 18th c). Yes of course there have been people
wavering, as you can imagine when people say it is forbidden. But good players... and don't forget that they had
gut strings (there may be a relationship between metal strings and continuous vibrato). In the late 30s of the 20th
C a music psychologist (Seashore he was called I think, too lazy to look it up) commented on the fact that vibrato
cannot transport any meaning: there it gets continuous. As a matter of fact, gut strings don't need it. You need a
very good right hand and there are lots of things you can do with your left hand to improve the sound of your
violin without needing vibrato anyway. I didn't read the article by the way. I wrote a long dissertation on baroque
vibrato in the time the dinosaurs were still talking, 1983.
Unlike · · 12 · 18 March at 07:11
Job Ter Haar I don't think vibrato became continuous because of the use of steel strings. Casals, the
protagonist of continuous vibrato, always played on gut strings, even after WW2. At the beginning of the
20th century most violinists still used gut e strings and many of them were using continuous vibrato.
Leading figures like Kreisler and Heifetz made the transition to continuous vibrato on gut strings. BTW in
my 'lineage' (Anner Bijlsma, Boomkamp, Hekking) we never got rid of gut strings, I learned the whole
'modern' curriculum on gut strings, with vibrato! I do agree however that non-vibrato playing sounds
much better on gut strings. Maybe it's the other way around: steel strings could take over because
everybody was vibrating all the time?
Like · · 4 · 18 March at 10:00
Antoinette Lohmann I think the early recordings contributed to start of using more vibrato greatly, as an
attempt to make it sound warmer.
Leopoldo Auer still describes vibrato as an ornament, btw...
Like · · 4 · 18 March at 11:50
Job Ter Haar You are probably right, but players like Kreisler and Casals probably developed their
continuous vibrato before they started recording. As did Hollman, I suppose. This recording is from 1915:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uku64KH8lmw It's interesting that he was a Servais student. I am
almost sure that in the 2nd half of the 19th century the Servais school was moving towards continuous
vibrato. I browsed some reviews in Dutch magazines. Cellists who were using vibrato according to the
reviews seem to have had their training in Belgium. Piatti's playing (he used little vibrato) was considered
"cold" here. Maybe Brussels was one of the places where the continuous vibrato developed. I read that
Wieniawsky was one of the first to 'intensify' the vibrato, and Vieuxtemps followed his example, although
he was his teacher. I also think Casals learned more in Brussels than he cared to admit.
Joseph Hollman - Chopin: Nocturne in F
youtube.com
Like · · 3 · 18 March at 12:17
Christopher Price Pontifex The portamenti are extraordinarily pronounced (if that is what his sliding up
and down the strings is). And, as you say, a pretty continuous, very audible vibrato too.
Job Ter Haar Yes, and he was already around for a while, his career took off in the '80s.
Richard Bethell Good to see a respected and authoritative musicologist like yourself, Greta Haenen, joining this
debate. I've already deplored the fact that your Das Vibrato in Der Musik des Barock has not (as many of us
HIPsters hoped) produced a new school of straight toning vocalists using only occasional expressive vibrato. You
make some very good points. As you say, there is absolutely no evidence for claiming that "a light vibrato was the
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order of the day for 18th Century musicians".
But your work may have had some effect on string playing. In a reply to Christopher Suckling's post at the top of
this thread, I noted that Alina Ibragimova and several string ensembles were going in the right direction.
However, with a couple of exceptions such as Miriam Feuersinger and Dominique Visse, singers are still ignoring
the research. What a pity!
Christopher Price Pontifex I agree that it is high time the great Greta Haenen appeared in this debate (or this
campaign) of the Vibrato Wars. Welcome.
Like · · 2 · 18 March at 12:22
George King What about vibrato in singers?
Like · · 1 · 19 March at 09:36
George Kennaway Oh please.... Can I short circuit that one? Re singers: some do, some don't; some did, some
didn't; some had to, some didn't have to; etc...
Like · · 3 · 19 March at 09:58
George King It's certainly a vexed question about which we may never be able to reach consensus.
Like · · 1 · 19 March at 10:16
Mark Bailey Judith Malafronte's article in last summer's edition of EMA is a terrific discussion of the issue
from the singers' perspective. You can search for it on Google as "Vibrato Wars Early Music America."
Like · · 3 · 19 March at 12:56
Klaus Miehling She mentions this group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2388883212/
Vibrato is a Bizarre and Unnecessary Affectation!
Join Group
Public Group
167 Members
Like · · 3 · 19 March at 16:40
Greta Haenen Gosh! I wrote a whole 700 pages dissertation on vibrato in the 17th and 18th centuries and
look! the issue is back... well well
Like · · 5 · 20 March at 13:33
Ben Hebbert George, you are simply reminding me that it's five years since I ended my subscription to the Strad.
Like · · 1 · 20 March at 18:56
George Kennaway Not surprised.
[End of Thread V18]
FB Vibrato Wars
Page 164
V19. Esther Visser, launched 15 March 2016
Oliver Webber shared Esther Visser's post.
15 March at 22:10
Esther Visser with Job Ter Haar and Desiree Staverman at Codarts.
15 March at 13:15 · Rotterdam, Netherlands
Happy to have been invited to write a second article on the historical use of vibrato (this time about the
Romantic era), for the Codarts Rough Guide Informed Performance, vol.2. Diving into this fascinating
subject once more smile emoticon
Codarts
School/university · Rotterdam, Netherlands
· 4.8 ★
6,518 people checked in here
9You, Alexander Skeaping, John Moraitis and 6 others
Comments
John Moraitis I would definitely be interested in reading it when it is published!
Richard Bethell Me too
FB Vibrato Wars
Thread V19 15 March 2016
Page 165
Subject Index
16th Century Music
Improvisation, Diminution, Ornamentation, 9
Bach
Cello Suites, 11
Brass
Copper Content, 4
Castrati
Benign hegemony exercised over long 18th C, 134
Sounded like women, in part, 42
Chiavette, 2, 4, 6
Composer's Intentions, Guesswork, 9, 27
Conferences
2016-04-26, Cambridge, Performing Knowledge,
17
2016-06-13, Stockholm, Performing
Premodernity, 26
2016-09-05, Guildhall, RMA, 157
2016-11-03, Vancouver, AMS, Breathtaking
Project, 131
Cornettists also directing ensembles
Dickey, Bruce, 68
Dongois, William, 68
Tubéry, Jean, 68
Wilson, Roland, 68
Facebook, Other Groups
Vibrato is a Bizarre and Unnecessary Affectation,
164
Falsettists, 24, 61
Dual Register Singing, 47, 60, 98
Singers assumed to be mono register, 42
Suppressed in 19th C, 152
Good Taste, 15, 36, 80, 89, 101, 124, 130, 141, 156
HIP
?Where next, 2
Assumptions, Conformist, 2
Castrati, how to replace them, 24
Coloratura as noodles, 52
Conductors, Necessity?, 16
Directors, Need for, 17, 18
French & Italian vocalism, did they differ?, 47, 48
Konzeptregie from egotistical director with HIP
instruments, 49
Literalism, Limits of, 16
Re-record Everything, Need to, 11, 140
Uniformity, tendency towards, 129
IMSLP, Petrucci Music Library, 149
Instrumentalists, Historic
Auer, Leopold, 163
Besozzi, Carl, 81
Casals, Pablo, 163
Fischer, Johann Cristian, 81
FB Vibrato Wars
Subject Index
Franchomme, Auguste, 39, 161, 162
Heifetz, Jascha, 163
Hekking, Anton, 163
Hollman, Joseph, 163
Joachim, Joseph, 39, 147, 162
Kreisler, Fritz, 163
Piatti, Alfredo, 163
Rode, Pierre, 147
Sarasate, Pablo de, 39, 162
Servais, Renaud, 163
Sivori, Camillo, 39, 162
Vieuxtemps, Henry, 163
Wieniawski, Henryk, 163
Instruments a clue to what composer wants
Bach, vocal & instrumental parts similar, 52, 145
Cornetto, recorder, oboe, trumpet, 131
Monteverdi, viol, recorder, cornetto, 68
Monteverdi, violin, cornetto, recorders, 78
Italian Language, 6
Mansplaining, or patronising manner, 117, 118, 126
Marking Parts, 12, 13
Notation, Original, 2
Opera Production
Avant-Garde, 2, 8, 20, 21
Deportment, unhistoric, 51
Poetry, Metre, Pronunciation, 2
Staging, Costume, Gesture, 2, 8, 20, 21
Ophicleide, 15
Performance Spaces, Right Sized, 2, 101
Barbieri, Acoustics of Italian opera houses and
auditoriums, 78
Cobbe Collection, 3
St. Cecilia's Hall, Edinburgh, 3
Performance Spaces, Too Large?, 53, 78, 115
Allow amplification?, 76, 78, 97, 101
Lincoln Center at the Met, 101
Pianists, Romantic, Differences, 91
Portamento, 14, 15, 51, 54, 109, 112, 138, 156
17th C violin exercises, 158
Arban, Jean-Baptiste, trombone method, 112
Corri, Domenico, 112, 157
Diepo, A, trombone method, 112
Haydn, 157
Mozart, Wolfgang, 157
Portamento di voce
Corri, Domenico, 157
Purcell
Dull or Beautiful?, 61
Falsettists or Dual Register Tenors, 61
Recordings
Encouraged vibrato in violinists, 158
Page 166
Need research on old vs modern equipment, 88
Singers were on their best behaviour, 90
Research, Recent/Projected
Abramov-van Rijk, Elena, Singing Dante, 5
Faultless, Margaret, 17
Holman, Peter, 17
Howard, David, 114
Hurwitz, David. See Vox Humana
Lawson, Mhairi, 157
Malafronte, Judith, 59, 164
Nicholas Clapton, Moreschi, 23
Performing Knowledge Conference, 17
Potter, John, 111, 140
Potter, Sarah, 137, 139, 143
Scruton, Roger, 31
Small, Christopher, Musicking, 28
Smith, Anne, 16th C Theory, 6
Toft, Robert, 41, 146
Twomey, Cathal, 5
Visser, Esther XE "Vibrato Wars Articles:Codarts
Rough Guide Informed Performance" , 165
Williams, Jenevora, 114, 117, 119
Wistreich, Richard, 140
Singers, Current, 21st C Standard
Bartoli, Cecilia, 51, 104, 132, 140
Clapton, Nicholas, 41, 52
Crowe, Robert, 41
Dennis, Anna, 63
Fagioli, Franco, 51, 104, 132
Falcao, Xavier, 48
Gens, Véronique, 103
Hallenberg, Ann, 105, 140
Hargis, Ellen, 41
Iconomou, Panito, 145
Jaroussky, Philippe, 141
Laki, Krisztina, 158
Larmore, Jennifer, 104, 105, 140
Lezhneva, Julia, 105
Lezhneva,Julia, 141
Mameli, Roberta, 49
Mynenko, Yuriy, 104, 105
Napoli, Lucia, 48
Netrebko, Anna, 52
Rogers, Nigel, 105
Tubb, Evelyn, 63
Westbroek, Eva Maria, 76, 97
Singers, Current, Narrow Vibrato
Blažíková, Hana, 131, 132
Borciani, Alice, 51, 52
Denny, Sandy, 130
Devilliers, Perrine, 48, 51, 74
Kiehr, Maria Cristina, 132
Kirkby, Emma, 25, 41, 89
Rial, Nuria, 132
FB Vibrato Wars
Subject Index
Scholl, Andreas, 60
Singers, Current, Straight Toned, 57
Blažíková, Hana, with Bruce Dickey on Cornetto,
130, 131
Drabble, Roger, 60
Feuersinger, Miriam, 143
Feuersinger, Miriam, 27, 31, 33, 101
Jaroussky, Philippe, in Stabat Mater Dolorosa, 141
Laryngeal Development, 134
Lezhneva, Julia, in Stabat Mater Dolorosa, 141
Quasthoff, Thomas, as jazz singer, 76
Sting, 44, 91
Visse, Dominique, 60, 133, 164
von Otter, Anne Sophie, in pop or jazz, 76
Singers, Ensemble
Anonymous 4, 54
Cantores Sancti Gregorii, 116
Doulce Mémoire, 10
Graindelavoix, 54
Syred Consort, 154
Singers, Historic
Albani, Emma, 137, 138
Ambrogetti, Giuseppe. See Ornamental, not
continuous
Baker, Janet, 50, 60
Bartleman, James, 84
Black, Andrew, 87
Bracegirdle, Ann, 61
Braham, John, 84
Caccini, Francesca, 129
Callas, Maria, 50
Calvé,Emma, 87
Carestini, Giovanni, 25, 83, See Ornamental, not
continuous
Caruso, Enrico, 90
Catalani, Angelica, 40, See Ornamental, not
continuous
Crosby, Bing, 90
Cross, Laetitia, 129
Eames,Emma, 87, 88
Fitzgerald, Ella, 90
Flagstad, Kirsten, 100, 112
Galli, Catherine Rinni, 84
Harrison, Samuel, 25
Holiday, Billie, 90
Horne, Marilyn, 50, 51
Kaiser, Mlle, 81
Knyvett, William, 60
Lambert, Michel, 107
Lehmann, Lilli, 87
Marchesi, Luigi, 42, 50
Melba, Nellie, 86, 88, 90
Page 167
Mingotti, Regina, 84
Nilsson, Birgit, 25
Norman, Jessye, 52
Otto-Alvsleben, Melitta, 152
Parton, Dolly, 46
Patti, Adelina, 89, 109, 110
Pavarotti, Luciano, with parrot, 77
Price, Leontyne, 50, 51
Quinn, Dan W, 87
Reszké, Jean de, 43
Robinson, Anastasia, 100, 129
Rubini, Giovanni, 40
Salmon, Eliza, 25
Sassaroli, Filippo, 42
Schram, Peter, 86
Sinatra, Frank, 53, 90
Trix, Helen, 87
Velluti, Giovanni, 42, 50
Watkin-Mills, Robert, 87
Weber, Aloysia, 81
Singers, Non Western
Aboriginal Traditional, 115
Arabic Maqamat, 115
Black Umfolosi 5, 116
Byzantine Music, 29
Georgian Republic Khasanbegura 1907, 127
Greek Orthodox Chanting, 128
Gundecha Brothers, 115
Indian Classical Shruti, 115
Tenore Supramonte Orgosolo, 114, 127, 128
Uday Bhawalkar, raga Shri, 127
Singing, Historically Informed
Box Office? Or not?, 24
Drag, Rubato, Ritardando, 64
Females debuted in early/mid teens, 129
Human Voice. Changed? Or not?, 24, 30, 75, 99
Living art, or resurrection of dead one?, 39
Natural voice preferable to made voice, 24, 101
Need to understand 17th/18th C taste, 124, 126
Nightingales replaced by dramatic sopranos, 152
Rossini, last in baroque & early classical vocal
trad, 147
Straight Toning "Movement", 33, 141
Tempo rubato, 63
Trill, Can do it, 26, 34, 138
Vocal sound in ensemble tuned to mean tone, 85
Voices used must match periods, 31, 35
Singing, Historically Un-Informed, 2, 22, 23
Coarsening of vocal/instrumental sound through
19C, 152
Constantly dramatic & emphatic singing, 52, 158
Grand Uproar Voices, 53, 132
In-your-face blast of full-tilt verismo opera, 99
FB Vibrato Wars
Subject Index
Laryngeal Development, 46, 47, 101, 105, 106,
139, 152
Medieval, notational variations ignored, 128
Post 19th C aesthetic outlook, 18
Shrieking Ascents, 49, 101, 134
Tosi claimed to be irrelevant for 1700s, 37, 38,
102, 120
Trill, Can't do it, 26, 34, 89, 104, 107
Tuning, 10
Uniformity, tendency towards, 48
Singing, Non Western Traditions
Bulgarian Traditional, 32
Connection with Western Traditions, 118
Ensemble Organum, 29
Implied Inferiority to Western Art Music, 98, 116,
121, 122
Indian Music, Classical, 31
Spotify Playlists
Vibrato Free Classical Singing, 33, 58, 92, 141
Vibrato Free Male Pop, 92
Vibrato Lite Early 20C Voice, 87, 137
Straw Man argument, 41, 119, 129, 161
String Performers, Current
Bylsma, Anner, 156, 163
Gaillard, Ophélie, 162
Goebel, Reinhard, 156
Ibragimova, Alina, 155, 164
Linden, Jaap ter, 156
Queyras, Jean-Guihen, 161
String Playing
Chin/Shoulder Rests, 4
Consistent with historical artefacts, 2
Gut Strings, Thicker, 8
Viols/Cello, Wound Strings, 4
String Quartets, Current
Amadeus String Quartet, 155
Armida Quartett, 156
Emergence Quartet, 156
Eroica Quartet, 156
London Haydn Quartet, 156
Quatuor Mosaïques, 156
Tactus, Disruption by Kapsberger, 133
Teaching Early Music, 2, 7, 86
Ossified conservatoire system, 140
Schola Cantorum Basiliensis, 120
Text, in vocal music
Engagement with, 58, 144, 146, 148
Poor Diction, 26, 53, 57, 60
Recitative, 2
Recitative, rhythmically correct, 5
Recitative, spoken not sung, 113, 145, 146, 148
Words & music, relative importance of, 145
Tous les Matins du Monde, 21
Trumpets, Holeless, 2, 13
Page 168
Vibrato
Adjustable to different styles, 76
Age at which opinion formed, 74, 75, 89, 91
Alternative paradigm to give singers more work,
101, 134, 140
Applied or Released, 45
Arriving of its own volition in training, 113
Bleating, Cause of, 36
Children don't use, or laugh at it, 40, 75, 89, 90,
96, 97, 113, 114
Chinese opera, use in, 113
Choral Singing, Spoilt by, 41
Common aesthetic voices & strings, 44, 134
Condemnation implies practice widespread?, 39
Constant vib hysterical not expressive, 88
Defenders disregard what listener wants, 97, 98,
99
Definitions, 38, 67, 73, 95, 110, 111, 135, 138
Difficult without hard training, 32, 46
Disease, viewed as, 42, 44, 151, 152
Elderly divas, the preserve of, 25, 84
Enharmonic tuning made impossible by, 31, 91,
92, 95, 102, 103
Ensemble use OK?, 111, 112
Greatest uncertainties relate to long 18C period,
73
Growth in 19th Century, 25, 82, 152
Hides poor intonation, 30, 103, 158
Increases once singer habituated, 91
Inevitable in large spaces?, 15, 96, 98
Lady vocalists abusing a senseless appendage, 76
Lower jaw movements, induced by, 25
Masks ugly equal tempered thirds & sixths, 114
Medieval Chant, 32, 55
Messa di voce, during, 37, 82, 95
Natural form inaudible, 29, 32, 99, 110, 111
Natural or Cultivated, 33, 46, 68, 75, 98, 111, 113,
130
Non Western traditions don't use it, 31, 96, 98,
109, 110, 111, 113
Notated Examples, 35
Orchestral Use, 35
Ornamental, not continuous, 25, 29, 34, 40, 42,
52, 54, 69, 83, 85, 88, 130, 134, 138, 156, 158,
160
Oscillation Width, 29, 31
Perceptive/Cognitive Aspects, 111, 135
Personal Taste vs History, 31, 60, 66, 99, 100, 106,
119, 123, 138
Pitch or amplitude variations, 92, 95, 96, 111, 135
Pitching Facilitated by, 30
Projection Assisted by, 30
Provable (or not) from historic record, 38, 40, 66,
70, 99, 101, 119, 140, 164
FB Vibrato Wars
Subject Index
Replaces tone by frequency cluster, making sound
fuller, 114
Scientific accuracy vs passionate rhetoric, 120,
121
Straight toning makes me feel ill, physically and
psychologically, 138
Straight toning unhealthy for the voice, 32, 45, 47,
53, 68, 79, 81, 88, 110, 135
Talking and singing the same, 87, 91, 98
Terms used to praise vocalists often misleading,
158
Text made less understandable, 57
Tosi & Bacilly, alien world, 141
Vital for emotional expression, 68
Voices & instruments on different planets, 44, 82,
132, 140
Voicing of trillo type ornaments, 73
Warbling, Tantamount to, 38
Where to use it, 92, 93, 94, 156
Why haven't straight singers contributed?, 107,
132, 141
Vibrato Research 1, c.1600
Bovicelli, Giovanni, 67, 68, 112, 149
Butler, Charles, 150
Caccini, Giulio, 67, 149
Coryat, Thomas, 134
Crüger,Johann, 150
Frederici, Daniel, 150
Herbst, Johann Andreas, 150
Mersenne, Marin, 150
Ornithoparcus, Andres, trans John Dowland, 150
Praetorius, Michael, 34, 67, 70, 83, 150, 159
Rognoni, Francesco, 83, 149
Rotem, Elam & Bötticher, Jörg-Andreas, 74
Sanford, Sally, 103
Zacconi, Lodovico, 67, 70, 83, 112, 149, 159
Zenobi, Luigi, 67, 70, 112
Vibrato Research 18C, Long
Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel, 158
Bacilly, Bénigne de, 47, 107, 149, 150
Bacon, Richard Mackenzie, 36
Bailey, Nathan, 82
Baillot, Pierre, 95
Bayly, Anselm, 83
Bérard, Jean-Antoine, 52
Bernhard, Christoph, 36, 74, 130, 134, 149
Bremner, Long, 160
Burney, Charles, 38
Gardner, William, 84
Geminiani, Francesco, 101, 162
Hiller, Adam, Ed Beicken, 25, 83
Hiller, Johann Adam, 84
Mace, Thomas, 150
Mancini, Giambattista, 42, 83
Page 169
Meisner, Herr, 83
Mozart, Leopold, 82, 102, 103, 134, 158
Mozart, Wolfgang, 45, 80, 81, 83
North, Roger, 130, 150
Quantz, Johann Joachim, 84
Raaff, Anton, 83
Reggio, Pietro, 150
Rotem, Elam & Bötticher, Jörg-Andreas, 74
Sanford, Sally, 95
Tartini, Giuseppe, 95, 102
Tenducci, Giusto, 81
Tosi, Pierfrancesco, 36, 37, 60, 84, 91, 100, 101,
102, 120, 130, 149, 157
Vibrato Research 19C
Alverson, Margaret Blake, 151
Bacon, Richard Mackenzie, 40
Garcia, Manuel, 38
Gardner, William, Music of Nature, 26
Gärtner, Jochen, 69
Hurwitz, David, on Spohr, 35
Spohr, Louis, 134
Brown, Clive, 161
Gable, Fred, 53
Haenen, Greta, 38, 52, 53, 140, 163, 164
Johnstone, J Alfred, 42
Miehling, Klaus, 39
Morrow, Michael, 91
Saint-Saëns, Camille, 39
Seashore, Carl, 29, 153, 163
Bethell, Richard, 44, 69, 82, 98
Crowe, Robert, 40
Dickey, Bruce, 70
Gable, Fred, 38, 53
Parrott, Andrew, 61
Potter, John, 91
Potter, Sarah, 137, 143
Toft, Robert, 41, 146
Williams, Jenevora, 29, 97, 98, 109, 110, 114
Vibrato Singing, Attitudes
Agnostic, 31, 35, 47, 54, 91
Bad, 29, 30, 31, 45, 47, 49, 54, 56, 58, 66, 75, 89,
91, 103, 126, 128, 129, 132, 134, 159, 162
Good, 25, 30, 31, 32, 36, 40, 41, 50, 56, 57, 92,
106, 113, 129, 138
Very strong passions aroused, 25, 31, 94, 99, 100,
106, 119, 122, 128, 137
Why is vib so contentious?, 54, 55, 56, 63
FB Vibrato Wars
Subject Index
Vibrato Wars Articles
Codarts Rough Guide Informed Performance, 165
Early Music America, 164
Engelbrecht, Henrik, The Earliest Mozart
Recording in the World, 86
Limits of Literalism, Nuno Atalaia Rodrigues, 15
Practise what you Preach, connecting Research,
Rehearsal & Performance, Andrew LawrenceKing, 16
Strad, Did earlystring players use continuous
vibrato, 155
Vibrato in singers, Dr Jenevora Williams, 109
Vibrato of late 1700s compared with Today's, 79
Vibrato, the Orchestral Organ and the 'Prevailing
Aesthetic' in Nineteenth-Century Symphonic
Music, Hurwitz, 35
Video on the science behind vibrato, 29
Whatever Happened to HIP, Brian Robbins, 15
Vibrato Wars Threads Valuable
Extended or edited transcript, 143
How to store, facilitating access, 70, 141, 142
NEMA conference, working on it, 73
Study day with papers, demos, tweets & FB posts,
72
Word transcript of all threads, 137, 142, 150
Vibrato, instrumental
Bebung or flattement, 69
Brass, common Eastern Europe, not West, 42
Clavichord, bebung, 26, 108, 124, 125, 135, 156
Cornetto, very slight, as used by Bruce Dickey, 160
Flute, bebung or flattement, 83
Greek Kithara, 155
Guitar, different vibrato types, 108
Habeneck, Francois, 147
Organ, vox humana stop, 33, 34, 82, 108, 159
Sarawati Veena, 133
Viol, vib marked in French viol scores, 162
Violin, bow vibrato, 135
Violin, clear tone of JSB, 158, 159
Violin, some marked in Walther’s violin sonatas,
162
Violin, vib in imitation of voice, 134
Violin/cello performance, 19th C notices, 155
Vocal Science Software
Audible, 153
MADDE, 117
PRAAT, 127
YouTube videos, legality, 28
Page 170

“Vibrato Wars” Threads - National Early Music Association UK

Transcription

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