Handling Consultants Feedback Reports

Transcription

Handling Consultants Feedback Reports
What is this document?
During the past 3 years, race car drivers Ben Collins & Nicolas Hamilton have thoroughly tested the
development builds of our WMD-powered Project CARS title, sharing their impressions on the car behaviour
and all their racing expertise in the WMD forums to help our development team make Project CARS the
most realistic & immersive virtual racing experience possible.
Previously, these feedback reports have been exclusively available to our development team as well as our
World of Mass Development members inside the private WMD forms.
Now, we have decided to share this document, allowing everyone to see the World of Mass Development
concept in full swing.
By following the progress reports from our two real-life racing experts, everyone can track the progress
made on Project CARS’ physics & handling development, starting with the implementation of Project CARS’
powerful SETA tire model in November 2012.
This documents contains all the feedback given by the two drivers, 100% unfiltered and unedited, as well as
the replies from our development team members that are marked in blue.
About our Handling Consultants
Ben Collins - Born in Bristol, England, Ben Collins is a professional race car driver, probably best known as the
man behind „The Stig“ in the BBC’s hugely-popular „Top Gear“ programme.
Aside from his work on various television & movie productions, Ben is also a highly-accomplished
professional race car driver, having successfully competed in high-profile racing championships like the
British Touring Car Series, the Australian V8 Supercar series as well as the FIA World Endurance Championship
and the Le Mans 24 Hours.
Nicolas Hamilton - Born in Herfordshire, England, in 1992, Nicolas was brought up in the motorsports world
alongside older brother Lewis. Born with Cerebral Palsy, Nicolas has always made sure this wouldn’t stop
him from pursing his passion for racing.
Hamilton is an accomplished touring car racer, having spent multiple seasons in the Renault Clio Cup
United Kingdom as well as competing in the FIA European Touring Car Cup.
Index
•
THE SETA TIRE MODEL
3
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NOVEMBER 2012
6
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DECEMBER 2012
16
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JANUARY 2013
19
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FEBRUARY 2013
38
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MARCH 2013
45
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APRIL 2013
55
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MAY 2013
62
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JUNE 2013
73
•
JULY 2013
85
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AUGUST 2013
96
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SEPTEMBER 2013
107
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OCTOBER 2013
125
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NOVEMBER 2013
144
•
DECEMBER 2013
152
•
JANUARY 2014
174
•
FEBRUARY 2014
187
•
MARCH 2014
205
•
APRIL 2014
227
•
MAY 2014
254
•
JUNE 2014
276
•
JULY 2014
294
•
AUGUST 2014
318
•
SEPTEMBER 2014
324
•
OCTOBER 2014
347
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NOVEMBER 2014
373
•
DECEMBER 2014
396
Handling Consultants FeedBack – The SETA Tire Model
THE SETA TIRE MODEL
Seta Tire Model Described
Seta Tire Model (STM) is a full dynamic tire simulation. Actually, it is three coupled simulations, one for the tire
carcass, one for the tire tread and contact patch, and one for heat transfer simulation. It is also modular,
where different carcass and tread simulation techniques can be used interchangeably. For example, off
road racing may use a different tread simulation.
Carcass Simulation
The carcass simulation used in Project Cars is a finite element simulation with specific computational
optimizations specific to real time tire simulation. The carcass is discretized into small connected “elements”,
each one flexing and deforming due to forces.
Features:
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Elastic behavior changes with speed, temperature, and pressure
Rolling resistance changes with speed, temperature and pressure
Sidewall buckling at low pressure
Bias Ply, Radial, or Hybrid construction
Gyroscopic Effects
Dynamic response such as vibration, telescoping, and twisting
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© 2014 Slightly Mad Studios – WMDPortal.com
Tread Simulation
The tread simulation used in Project Cars is a finite difference simulation of the contact patch, with the tire
tread “flowing” through the contact patch. The whole tread itself is discretized into elements much like the
carcass, but the contact patch itself is a finite difference grid.
Features:
• Flash Heating, which is the change of temperature in the outermost rubber layer through the contact
patch.
• Componentized grip model. Each component is affected differently by road surface conditions,
wetness, and temperature.
• Deformation – the rubber deforming in and around asperities, resisting sliding motion.
• Adhesion – the rubber bonding to surface rubber and material.
• Tack – the sticky tacky grip you can feel on your shoes when walking a rubbered in track, related to
adhesion.
• Tearing – the ripping of rubber from the tire
• Cut – grip from the geometry, edges, grooves, and siping of the tread, with particular effect in dirt and
gravel
• Tread channel depth and water handling.
• Discretized and temperature sensitive wear
• Curing
• Temperature sensitive elastic properties
The carcass and tread simulations are coupled such that there is no roughness or “stepping”, while still
preserving the detail of both simulations. The contact patch size, shape, and pressure distribution is
determined by the carcass simulation and is used by the tread simulation. The forces on the tire from the
road surface are simulated in the tread simulation and transferred as external forces to the carcass
simulation.
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Heat Transfer Simulation
The heat transfer simulation handles heat flow between brakes, wheel well, rim, carcass, and tread layers.
The heat transfer amongst tread elements, from tread elements to the road surface, and from the tread
elements to the air are handled directly by the tread simulation (including advection and evaporation). The
pressure of the tire is maintained by the carcass simulation via the ideal gas law.
Emergent Effects
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Most effects just “fall out” of STM without explicit coding for effect:
Fy, Fx, and Mz vs slip angle curves, complete with realistic nuances, such as Mz inversion
Inclination effects such as camber thrust
Complex and sometimes subtle changes in behavior due to load, heat, pressure, and speed.
Proper behavior at a standstill and very slow speeds, although due to limitations of consumer force
feedback devices, oscillations may still occur. Many tire models break down at a standstill.
• Flatspots
• Hydroplaning
Changes in behavior due to surface differences, such as surface roughness, track
rubbering in, wetness, and dirt.
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Handling Consultants Feedback – November 2012
NOVEMBER 2012
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this is my first post for my blog, obviously I am new to Project CARS, so you may have
to bare with me a little.
Firstly, I just want to say how fantastic I think the game is already and it is only at Pre-Alpha.
I have played racing sims for about 5 years, having grown up with GTR, GTR 2, RACE, RACE
07 etc, and I can already see that this project is going to be a successful one. The graphics
and detail are great so far, I have played around with the different weather conditions,
and the coolest thing I have found is night-time at (Suzuka) where everything is lit up. J
What you will notice with me is that I am a perfectionist, if I do not like something then I will
tell you my honest opinion. I may make comments that you do not agree with, but this is
me just being honest and I think that is what is needed for this game to be the best it can
be.
My main focus for this post is going to be the ‘Asano X4 Touring ‘car and comparing the
BTM and SETA tire mods.
When I first started playing the game, I drove the ‘Asano X4 Touring’ car, and I was instantly
impressed with how realistic it was in terms of visuals, the cockpit is fantastic and the
attention to detail is great.
BTM
This mod was present when I first started driving the game at ‘Besos GP’, and I was very
impressed by the level of grip that it was producing. I was making lots of different setup
changes to get the car how I wanted, and I got it so perfect that I found 1.4 seconds
between my first setup and my second one. I was very impressed with how the different
changes I made accurately changed the car to what I wanted. I felt that the car was
great because you could brake late, so late that you could pretty much brake all the way
into the apex of the corner and then get on the power with plenty of traction. I set the car
up so that it was very ‘pointy’ on the front, and was stable on the rear for when you got on
the power. All I changed was front and rear ride height, as well as front and rear camber. I
set a laptime of 1:37.9
I then realised that the car was so ‘hooked’ up and had so much grip, that it was starting
to become unrealistic because there were no movements from the car and no feeling
from what it was doing, but it was still great to drive.
SETA
When I first drove this tire, I felt that the car had now become pretty much undrivable to
where it just was not realistic. It started to become unpredictable mainly under braking
and in high speed corners making corners that are usually taken 'flat' not 'flat' anymore.
This was generally down to the lack of traction on the exit of corners and lack of grip and
Handling Consultants Feedback - November 2012
stability at high speed. All of this should have the opposite effect as the more downforce
you have on the car, the more grip you have at high speed.
I think to improve this, the tire needs to produce more grip for traction when exiting a
corner and more grip for stability at high speed, but also give the real feeling of the car
moving underneath you, when being on the limit and on the limit of the tire should give
you the feeling that you could not have gone any quicker through the corner. I have also
noticed that most of the Kerbs at 'Besos GP' are very slippery which in some respects are
realistic, but the lack of grip when using them in the dry, feels how they should be in the
wet.
Having said all of this, I made changes to the setup and found a way to make the car ‘ok’
to drive but even with as much grip as possible on the rear of the car, it always wanted to
oversteer and drift. This is all good fun, but if I was driving the car in real life, I would think
the car was trying to ‘kill me'.
This all depends on what market we are aiming at with Project CARS as there are people
that just enjoy driving a games and do not use all of its features, you get people that know
nothing a out racing but want to have fun, and then you get the ELITE group of hardcore
sim races who range from racing drivers, to people who just love Motorsport. This means
that all of the cars need to be as realistic as possible, but also as consistent as possible with
how it handles.
I have also done laps in the 'BMW Z4 GT3' car, and have found that the tire acts in a
different way compared to the 'Asano X4 Touring' car. Obviously, it is a different car and so
it willl handle differently, but the tire seems to have more overall grip in high speed which is
better, but with the same lack of traction on the exit of corners but is easier to control. I find
myself using the lack of traction to 'steer with the rear' of the car through the corner, which
is good fun to drive and is the quickest way at the moment, but still is unrealistic.
Overall I think that the SETA tire mod is the correct way to go, as it is more realistic, it just
needs to be fine tuned, which to me is most important at the moment.
I hope no one sees this as negativity as I love the game, this is all just what I feel could
make the experience even better.
Thanks guys,
Nic
Doug Arnao:
Awesome feed back Nic. Please speak your mind of course, It's welcome. I'm the one
responsible for most of the chassis physics and did most of the work on the BTM model. I
myself an old racecar driver. However Casey has been doing most of the work lately on
the SETA model as i was completely killed by Hurricane Sandy the last 2 weeks being 50
miles west of NYC. Today is the first day i'm really back up to full speed. I was especially
glad to hear how the car reacts as expected to setup changes and makes sense as this is
something that i work hard at. Anyways Casey will comment later on your findings, and
what he's been doing.. ThanksJ
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Hi Doug,
It's a pleasure to meet you mate. Thanks for your kind comment about my feedback. I am
just getting to grips with how everything works around here, so if i ever say something that
to you does not sound right, then just shout J. I hope all is well and that you are recovering
from Sandy, looking forward to working with everyone at SMS and WMD to make Project
CARS the best sim ever!
Let me know if you would like me to work on anything specific.
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks. Great feedback. Since I'm down in the model itself, the nature of the behavior is
more my focus than the balance of the cars at the moment, which differs from Casey and
Doug, so my questions will be different and complement theirs.
So my first question is, given that the Asano and BMW are currently "out of balance"
beyond what you can correct for in setup, do they seem to behave as realistic "evil" cars.
In other words, if you were driving a car trying to kill you in real life, is this how it would be? If
not, is there something unrealistic and computery about the evil?
In other other words, is the tire simulation doing evil right or wrong, and how?
Casey Ringley:
Hi Nic, great to have you with us on the project.
I've been chasing a solution to the exit oversteer this week, so it's good you're testing
primarily on a couple of cars it affects. What I've managed to track it to is a parameter
that sorta defines a load capacity for the tire. The first model you tested was designed
primarily for the Formula A only, so it makes sense that a car that weights twice as much
may have some issues. We've got a new tire going in to Friday's build for the Asano X4 and
Z4 GT3 (and quite a few others this week, in fact!) which seems to be more suited to that
style of car. Will be great to get your feedback if it's a move in the right direction.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hi Andrew,
Below is my answer to your question.
I personally believe that both cars you have mentioned, the Asano X4 and the BMW Z4
GT3, both react differently to the SETA tire, which is how it should be. Taking both cars into
account and comparing my knowledge between how they both felt with the BTM tire and
SETA tire, I would say that when making changes to the car with the BTM tire, the car
reacted just as it should.
With the SETA tire, the car did react to the changes in other areas e.g. adding more
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downforce corrected understeer etc., but the changes did not stop the car from wanting
to ‘kill me’. By this I mean, the general lack of traction on the exit of corners, as well as lack
of grip and stability through high speed corners did not improve with the changes I made.
Yes, I do think that if the car was ‘evil’ and was trying to kill me in real life, then this is what
would be happening. The affect of the car being ‘evil’ should be present when the car’s
setup is wrong, and then the changes that you make to improve it should affect the car in
the correct way.
Overall, I think that there are 3 routes that you could take on this.
The first route would be to find a tire which is between both the BTM and SETA tire mods,
which gives you a realistic feeling from the car with a realistic grip level.
The second route would be to change the physics of the SETA tire to respond more
accurately to the changes you make with the setup, and lastly to increase the impact that
each setup change makes to the handling of the car e.g. 6.0 of downforce now gives you
x 1 more etc.
I hope you can understand what I am trying to say, I hope I have understood your question
correctly and have given you the information you were looking for.
Thanks
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
Ok guys,
So this is my second blog for PROJECT CARS, I hope you all liked my first one and enjoyed
reading what I had to say.
This post is generally going to be about build 351 and the changes that were made to the
GT tires to reduce the issues we were all having which I highlighted in my first post.
Formula A
Firstly I want to mention that I have had a go with the Formula A car around Besos GP, and
I found it very enjoyable, for me this car seems to have the best SETA developed tire at the
moment with plenty of grip both on the front and the rear of the car and makes controlling
the car very realistic.
As well as enjoying the car, I found a few things that I think could be improved. Firstly is the
braking, mainly for medium and slow speed corners, when you apply the brakes the car
stops heavily which is correct, but the game does not seem to be able to keep up with the
deceleration of the car, by this I mean that when you brake and turn into a corner, the
surroundings seem to ‘jump’ when the car is slowing down, this makes the braking phase
very difficult and unrealistic, as you do not know how much the car is going stop. Maybe
this is just my PC I am not sure, but it is hard to explain what I mean in writing, but hopefully
you can understand what I am trying to say.
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Secondly, the sound of the ‘Formula A’ car when in the cockpit and outside of the car is
some way off from how an F1 car sounds in real life. I have done a comparison between
Lewis’ onboard in real life, and the ‘F1 2012 Game’ produced by Codemasters and Lewis’
onboard lap in real life compared to the Project CARS ‘Formula A’ and it is quite clear that
‘F1 2012’ has more of an accurate engine sound. I am not trying to be negative; I am just
trying to pick out the small detail. I am not sure if the sounds of the car can be changed,
but I think this is something that should be as accurate as possible.
BMW Z4 GT3
I have been reading a lot of peoples comments about the changes to this car, and it
seems that a lot of people are not happy about the understeer that it has now. When I first
started driving the car, I used my own setup and instantly did not like it mainly due to the
huge amount of understeer that you get on the entry to a corner, as well as the lack of
traction on the exit. I then read the first post on the ‘Build 350 discussion’ thread that
advised to use default setups only. (correct me if I am wrong). I then started using the
default setup and the car felt very stable on the rear due to the huge amount of
understeer it had, the tire produced more traction out of corners, but the understeer was
so great that I had to do something about it. I decided to change the car, but not too
much as it seemed that the more I changed the car, the worse it got e.g. lack of traction
on exit of corners, the default setup was good enough but just needed tweaking.
I found a good balance with the car in the end, but I still felt that I needed a little more
traction out of corners and could not get rid of the understeer without making the rear
unstable. Through high speed corners, the front of the car worked well e.g. Eau Rouge turn
one at Spa, but through medium and low speed corners, it seemed to struggle. With all this
being said, I found a way to drive around the understeer but I realized that to compensate
for the understeer, I was using an unrealistic amount of steering lock to get through the
corner e.g. turning the wheel sharply to get the front of the car to turn in properly. If I had
to do this in real life in the dry, then the car would instantly be wrong and I would make
changes. I have done all of my testing at Spa and after a few laps I was able to do a
2:19.7. I believe that Casey Ringley said that the pole time this year in real life for a Z4 GT3
was a 2:19.5, so this puts us in the correct ball-park for a realistic lap time. All that is needed
is more front-end grip e.g. less understeer, and maybe a little more traction on the exit of
corners, but I was very impressed with how changing the ‘damping’ on the rear made the
traction better.
Asano X4 Touring
I know that a lot of people have also been commenting on this car saying that it is ruined
etc. I personally do think that this car has taken a step backwards from the last build, which
was 347, but this is what development is all about. We make changes, we learn from them
and then we improve. The easiest way I can explain how this car feels now is that, when
you are on power the rear of the car feels like it is floating causing it to oversteer, but when
you are off power, the rear is planted and does not move causing a huge amount of
understeer by not letting the front turn.
Before, the car felt like it had good downforce and front-end grip, but no rear stability
through high speed corners and a lack of traction on the exit of corners, whereas now, the
car feels like it has no rear stability through high speed corners, lack of traction on the exit
of corners, and no downforce on the front or rear of the car. I have tried to make some
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changes to the car setup, but this seems to make no difference, even if I make a ‘drastic’
change to make the front turn better, e.g. maximum front downforce and minimum rear
downforce, it does not seem to change the general handling of the car.
Lastly, as I mentioned in my first post, the curbs on most tracks need to be changed in
terms of grip level as at the moment they are very slippery even with the slightest of
touches. They are the correct, height, shape, size and look realistic, but some of them are
too slippery for the dry condition.
Onwards and upwards ☺
Nic
Casey Ringley:
Great stuff, Nic. We'll have another round of changes for the Z4 and X4 in this week's build
which should help in the situations you've highlighted. Swinging the pendulum back to
something in between the two builds you've tested so far. I think we're honing in on
something really good now.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Ok guys, so blog number 3.
This post is going to be about Build 355 with the changes that were made to the Asano X4
and BMW Z4 GT3. I am also going to comment on the karts.
Asano X4
A big improvement from the last build, the car is just a joy to drive and is exactly what I was
taking about with finding a balance between the BTM and SETA tire mods. I don’t really
have much to say in terms of improvement, but I do have a couple of things which stand
out, the first one being ‘Brake Lag’ I am still suffering with this in a few different cars. Second
would be the kerbs, the grip level is a massive improvement, but some kerbs are still
unrealistic on how they unsettle the car e.g. Turn 6 and 7 at BESOS GP, the slightest of
touches still unsettles the car whereas a DTM car should easily be able to use them.
The traction out of medium speed corners should be increased just a little, I know a few
people that have driven a DTM car, and speaking to them they say that traction out of a
medium speed corner is very high as the car weighs a lot. Out of slow speed corners, the
car is reacting how it should, but most of the time in DTM is found through braking which is
where the car is most unstable. Lastly one small detail is the movement of the steering
wheel in the cockpit of the car as it moves about 4x faster than it should.
BMW Z4 GT3
I think this car has also made a big improvement as the front-end of the car is much better
on turn in and as a result has got rid of the understeer at high speed. There is still understeer
at low speed but that is to be expected from a car like this. It seems that with a better
front-end, you lose some rear stability through high speed corners, but this can be
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changed with setup and gives you more feeling to what the rear of the car is doing which
is great.
The biggest issue I had with this car was the Force Feedback, there was very little to no
feedback through low speed corners, but the correct amount through high speed and as
the car generally accelerated. The kerbs have the usual problem of low grip level and
unrealistic in unsettling the car, obviously some kerbs do punish you in real life, but at the
moment nearly every kerb in this car punishes you. Lastly is the same cockpit steering
problem that I had with the ‘Asano X4’.
Karts
So for me, I think that the karts are Project CARS’ biggest downfall, they handle nothing like
a kart does, and the detail and small things on them need correcting.
I personally think that Karts are the most important ‘Class’ in the game to get right, as the
market for ‘Karters’ is massive. Karting is where most racing drivers start; it is where you learn
the basics of motorsport, and where people decide whether they want to start a career as
a racing driver or not.
There are so many kart drivers out there that are looking for a good kart simulator to learn
their craft without having to out spend money on what is needed to go testing. The
amount of people that would test on an accurate kart simulator to develop their skills for
when they got on the ‘Real’ track would be huge. What I am trying to say is that, if the
Karts are as close as they can be and they are realistic, then Project CARS will be even
more successful.
Take Gran Turismo 5 for example, a lot of people were excited to see Karts in the game,
but as soon as you started driving them, it was just a disappointment. There has been many
people that have tried and failed in creating a kart mod, and the way I see it is, if you
don’t do it properly and it isn’t accurate, then don’t do it at all.
Appearance
I think they look great; I would just change the shape of the rear bumper a little as it looks a
bit square, whereas the bumper in real life has a bit more shape to it and is more ‘curvy’.
The second thing is the steering wheel, It is very rare that you will see a steering wheel that
has buttons on it with a big screen built into it, the steering wheel you have for the ‘Super
Kart’ is perfect as it looks like it has a proper ‘Alfarno’ system on it.
Physics
I personally think that there is no need to have two karts with gears. I think having the
‘Super Kart’ is enough, and basing the normal kart on a Senior Rotax, KF1, KF2, or KF3 kart
would be much better as this is what I think most people will want and can relate too.
So at the moment with this Build, both the ‘Super Kart’ and normal kart are undrivable,
which I am sure you all know, but in the previous build when you could drive them, the
normal kart just wasn’t how it should be. The best way I can explain this is by showing you 2
comparison videos which I have found, first with Project CARS, and then with ‘Kart Sim’
which is a kart simulator developed by an Australian guy and is going to be released
sometime next year, I do not know the details of it, but it looks great and gives you an idea
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of what Project CARS should work towards.
Kart Sim
Look at how the kart behaves; it is very ‘pointy’ where you can throw the kart around just
like you can in real life, you can lock up the brakes and turn into the corner and the grip
level looks accurate. The amount of steering lock you have to put in is correct along with
the amount you have to put in to correct oversteer. The ‘ride’ of the kart is very realistic, it is
stiff and you can see and feel every bump in the track.
I think this is the best ‘Kart Simulator’ I have seen, and if we could get something close to
this, then it would be fantastic.
Project CARS
The kart is very ‘robotic’ it doesn’t move, there is no element of being able to throw the
kart around. The steering lock is unrealistic, and you have to drive the kart like a car e.g.
brake in a straight line, go down the gears and then turn. In karts, yes you do brake in a
straight line sometimes, but I think you can see what I mean. The 2 videos speak for
themselves.
I think we need to take a new approach with the karts and start again in terms of the
physics. The little detail is very important too, and them 2 things together will make this
game even more fantastic than it already is.
Just a quick note, (small detail) when the driver changes gear in the ‘Super Kart’ he flicks
his fingers like he is using ‘Paddle shift’ which is not correct
Overall, the improvements that have been made are great and I am sure many people
will agree with me.
Thanks guys, I hope you can see the points I am making, and I look forward to the
improvements.
Nic ☺
Casey Ringley:
Thanks, Nic. This is exactly the brand of feedback we need. J
Asano X4
Great to hear you think this is so close. (especially as I'm liking the car a lot right now J )
Mid-speed corner exit and braking issues should be fairly simple to handle. There won't be
any changes to the car this week. Will let you know when anything is touched again here.
The brake lag is definitely one of the big issues right now; this and behavior on curbs are
the two major things affecting the game right now. Hopefully it's just an optimization issue
of the STM that is needed. We'll be giving it some attention very soon.
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If I remember right, you had some issue with your wheel being recognized as a gamepad?
That's most likely the cause of the steering animation issue and should clear up once we
get the recognition issue sorted. The anims match up perfectly on my G27, anyway.
BMW Z4 GT3
Liking this even more. J There seems to be a consensus that it is too difficult to catch the
rear end if you overdrive the car now, particularly on corner exit. Would you agree with
that?
Agreed on the FFB strength. There appears to be some headroom left without clipping the
signal too much, so I've bumped up the tire force multiplier by 33% on this car. It's not a
huge difference, but it helps.
Karts
As you've found, they're very broken right now. In fact, we have them set to use a default
STM tire that has almost no grip just to make sure we don't forget they are broken. J AJ is a
serious kart racer, though, and will be working on these soon.
Agreed on the appearance changes. Easy wins that will make a nice impact.
IMO a single speed kart would be a great addition; cheap to produce too, since it could
use so much of our 125cc model. We'll revisit this idea once the existing karts get proper
tires and drive well. I'm really excited to see how STM performs on a kart-sized model. BTM
was terrible in this regard. For some reason it just didn't scale down well.
As far as new stuff to try this week: There is a new tire in for small prototypes. Caterham
SP300R, Palmer Jag and the Racer L4 & V8. There is still some work to do on it, but it could
be an interesting test as it's the first one where we have tried matching STM output to real
world tire test data.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey Casey
In answer to your question about the BMW Z4, you are correct, I find that at the moment,
there car feels very good on the front-end now, with the changes you have made it has
improved but has also loosened up the rear a little. It seems that once the rear steps out
there is no way in getting it back, but sometimes through high speed corners, the loose
rear gives you more feeling on what the car is doing. The general balance of the car is
good, it just needs tweaking a bit here and there, but the loose rear defiantly adds to the
feeling, we just need it a bit more controllable when it does step out.
So reading your last post, I have tested the Caterham SP300R, Palmer Jag and the Racer
L4,
They all feel really nice to drive, plenty of traction and grip and are very forgiving. I tested
them all at BESOS GP and realised that the Caterham could not take the kerbs at all, one
touch and you would spin, whereas the other cars seemed to have more grip when using
14
Handling Consultants Feedback -
them.
Also to add is that the Force Feedback on all 3 cars is significantly weaker than the Asano
X4, the Asano X4 seems to have great Feedback, but the BMW Z4 and the 3 other cars I
have mentioned seem to suffer with the same problem.
Lastly, I forgot to add into my blog post. The Ghost car, I think this needs to be more of a
'ghost' and not and object if you know what I mean, so it is Transparent and you can see
through it, as at the moment it gets in the way of your turn in points etc, it also suffers with
lag which is very distracting.
Thanks mate
Casey Ringley:
OK cool. Check out the Z4 again in build 360 (tomorrow's build). It looks like we may have
had too little roll stiffness at the front and that was contributing to the loose rear end.
Default setup has changed for a stiffer front bar to get more even roll response front to
rear.
Are the brake lag issues persisting for you? There was a change in build 359 which may
(hopefully) go some way toward fixing it.
Andrew Weber:
I completely agree that the karts are completely broken right now, and need to be a
much better approximation of a real kart, at least driving-wise. Setup-wise, until the chassis
and axle are done with something closer to a finite element simulation, it will be hard to
get setup stuff to really act like setting up a real kart. Although, the truth is, setting up real
karts in real life, due to how everything interacts with everything else so intimately, is still as
much black magic as science anyway. (moving the seat forward on a Birel R32 might do
exactly the opposite of what it does on a CRG Road Rebel for example).
In any case, I also agree that the first kart should be either a direct drive or a slow-speedonly-clutch kart (what I call convenience direct drive, where the clutch is just to get going,
not a tunable performance item), especially since the top level of FIA karting has
traditionally been in this category (direct drive or close to it). Most of my kart experience
has been in Rotax and TaG, so I have an affinity for this category as well.
One trick for the kart is going to be to get the two primary driving styles to both be
competitive...that being 'pitch and drift' and 'carve'. The former tending towards focusing
on the front behavior (in RL via front track, camber, ackerman, front torsion bar, etc)
striving to be pointy, and the later tending towards the rear (hubs, axle, seat struts,
caster...yes, caster can be more of a rear tunable even though it is on the front wheels)
striving towards car-like early power application. Again, I am not sure how well we can get
setup to act like RL, but at least the driving should be able to get close for the different
styles.
15
Handling Consultants Feedback – December 2012
DECEMBER 2012
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
just a quick question, has anything been done to the realism of driving in the wet? I have
just been playing around with the different weather conditions and firstly I have noticed
that the game does not run as smooth in the wet as it does in the dry, I am not sure if this is
my PC or not.
I have been driving the BMW Z4 around Northampton (Silverstone GP) and the change in
grip level from dry to wet is only small, when you are driving on a really wet track in real life,
it comes down to finding where the grip is, (driving off of the normal racing line sometimes
as well as braking off line.) At the moment it seems like you only get a bit of understeer and
that is it, no real movement from the car hitting water or aquaplaning which is what you
would get if you were in a Thunder Storm or driving on a really wet track, it does not give
you the feeling of driving in the wet due to the amount of grip that there is and it seems
driving 'on' or 'off' the racing line makes no difference. The only difference I can feel is that
it goes slower in a straight line which makes your lap time slower.
Is this something that has been looked at already, or is this going to be looked at after the
STM tire and other issues are sorted?
I have lots of ideas of how I think the wet condition can be improved which will make it
more realistic.
Nic
Andrew Weber:
STM is not doing anything 'correct' with wet, or even off the track, yet. It will.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is about the latest Build 365 and what I have found this week.
BMW Z4 GT3
Firstly are the changes that were made to the BMW Z4 in build 360. I believe that the
changes that were made were to make the car a bit more forgiving and controllable on
the rear whenever it gets out of shape.
Before the changes were made, the rear was very ‘Snappy’ due to the initial changes that
were made to stop the ‘crazy’ amounts of understeer we all had when the SETA Tire was
16
first put on the car.
At the moment I see a slight difference with the rear now as it is a bit more controllable
when it begins to slide on power, it is not much of a difference as it still ‘snaps’ if you go to
far, but it is a good step forward in making the car more realistic. I seemed to have a bit
more understeer in medium speed corners compared to before, but now even with a
‘scrappy’ lap I am able to get a 2:18 around Spa which gives us an unrealistic lap-time, as
before I was able to do a 2:19 on a good lap which matched the ‘Real-life’ lap-time which
is a 2:19.5. What are your thoughts on this?
The biggest issue I am having is the kerbs, you all know my feedback on this and I know
some changes are being made so I do not need to go into detail.
So far I have not had any ‘brake lag’ issues, which is good and makes driving so much
better.
Force Feedback
Next is the changes that were made to the Force Feedback, I think in my previous post I
said that it was too weak with the BMW Z4 and gave you nothing, now I think that it is good
and is back to how it always has been.
I saw a few people commenting on my last post and talking about my thoughts on the
Force Feedback and how some of you disagreed with what I had to say, that’s fair
enough, everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is peoples opinions and thoughts that
help development move faster.
When I mentioned that the FFB was good for the Asano X4, a couple of people were
saying that it wasn’t for them as it was too heavy and it was ‘clipping etc. Firstly, I do not
know much about the theory of what goes into creating the FFB and the levels it goes up
to etc. so I don’t know much about ‘clipping’ and did not notice it. I go on ‘feeling’ as that
is what I know best being a racing driver. If the FFB feels too weak or to strong then I
change it to what I think is normal/ correct. Everyone has their own settings and styles and
that is what is good about being able to change the FFB to what suits you. I personally do
not think that it is all about having ‘realistic’ FFB because if we tried to make the FFB the
same as it is in ‘Real-life’, then most of the general public would not be able to turn the
wheel of most of the cars in the game, which is why ‘Racing drivers have to train hard to
keep fit’
I think that the most important thing is to make the cars drive as realistic as possible, and to
have an accurate FFB ‘default setting’ which feels good and is accurate with no ‘dead
zones’ which people can change to what suits them. What are your thoughts on this?
Milan GP
I have done a few laps around this circuit in the Asano X4, I am just a little unsure about the
amount of shadows that there are on the track, mainly shadows of trees which for me
make it very hard to see the ‘apex’ of the corners and kerbs. I am not sure what everyone
else’s thoughts are on this, but it seemed that there are too many shadows mixed with the
bright sunshine that makes it difficult to see. I tried to get rid of the shadows by changing
the weather conditions, but this seemed to make no difference, even with ‘heavy’ cloud
and ‘overcast’, the shadows still appeared.
17
Lastly, the second chicane just before the 2 Lesmo’s. On the second kerb there is a red,
what I call a ‘sausage kerb’ (not sure if that is what they are really called) on top of the
normal kerb, which if you hit, it sends the car flying into the air, there must be some sort of
bug here?
There is more to come next week.
Keep pushing ☺
Nic
Casey Ringley:
Thanks, Nic. Useful stuff, as always.
Good to know the Z4 is still inching in the right direction and we haven't taken any steps
backward. J Continuing with some setup and general physics tweaks to it this week, so it
will be worth trying again on Friday's build. It's getting a little slower and a little safer in slides
as we progress. One thing I just noticed is that we had tire sizes on it from the wrong year!
Looks like they switched to running wider fronts in 2011 and we weren't simulating that
correctly, so that should change the balance of the car quite a bit. There will also be a
potential improvement to the curb issue. It's a bit of a long shot which I don't expect to
solve the whole problem, but will be interesting to get your feedback on if it changes
anything.
Agreed 100% on FFB philosophy. Most important thing is getting something which
communicates well what the car is doing and substitutes for some of the 'seat feel.' I think
we have the right tools to achieve this while minimizing clipping, but a lot will depend on
getting each car's physics close to final first. As we've seen, even small changes to tires,
geometry, etc. can have a large effect on FFB.
I know what you mean about the sausage curbs. Seems to be a collision issue we're
dealing with at other tracks too and the Z4 seems to present this issue most frequently.
There is a quick fix applied this week which helps to minimize the problem until we can sort
out the root cause.
Casey Ringley:
Lots of new stuff going in for this week's Friday build, Nic. J The BMW Z4 has had another
round of changes to try and tame it down when getting past the tires' limit. The small
prototypes and Formula Rookie got a revised tire which, IMO, is feeling pretty great now.
Also, all of the street-tire cars got a similarly revised tire which seems to be a better fit. We're
particularly interested in how the curbs are feeling on the cars that have been changed. If
you find it's better, worse, or in any way different to the unchanged cars, then we'll have a
useful result.
18
Handling Consultants Feedback – January 2013
JANUARY 2013
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys, so I am back! I hope you all had a great Christmas and New Year. There is a lot
of stuff for me to catch up on from last month so my blog will be in full flow, so stay tuned.
☺
So this post is referring to Build 377 and the BMW GT3. It is good that I was away for so long
as when I came back and drove the game again I noticed some great changes and
improvements.
I was really looking forward to driving the BMW as Casey told me how much work they
have put into changing the physics for rear stability and also the changes in grip level with
the kerbs. Most of my testing with this car has been done at Spa as I have always used this
circuit for the BMW as it has a little bit of everything and is great to notice the changes and
improvements that have been made as well as the improvements that need to be done.
So looking at the track after being away I saw really nice texture changes that have
improved the graphics and adding small detail e.g. leaves on the back straight is a really
nice touch. Firstly, when I started to drive the car I thought if felt a lot more ‘professional’ to
drive, by this I mean that it is not all about having ‘crazy’ amounts of grip and expecting
the car to go though the corner by just throwing it in, which is what the car used to feel like.
Now it feels very balanced, but is very difficult to get the most out of it, which is realistic.
Most cars in real life are simple enough to drive but require skill and experience to get the
maximum speed out of it. The main difference I have noticed is that the change to the
rear stability has affected the front end which is normal, so now when you turn in, the front
is nice but once it gets to mid corner and you have carried too much in, it starts to
understeer. I think it is nice to have because you have to think about how much you carry
in and not just expect there to be lots of grip,
So, although the changes to the rear have improved stability, I also think that it is a little too
much, as the car has become a bit too forgiving. This is not the case when applying the
throttle out of hairpins and slow speed corners, as this is where you have to be careful not
to lose traction, as it is very easy to spin. The problem is more on the exit of medium and
high-speed corners, as the car is so stable when you get on the power, even with zero
downforce on the front and rear the car will always slide to a point but will never lose grip
or traction (spin).
The default setting on the car is so good, that you can run zero downforce at Spa and still
have enough grip to take Eau Rouge flat and have enough grip everywhere else, which is
not realistic. In real life with zero downforce through Eau Rouge, it would be impossible to
go through it flat and the rest of the track has both high speed and low speed corners,
which require downforce. To me it feels that the effect of the downforce is inaccurate and
not working in the ways that it should.
I remember a while back Casey was talking about having accurate laptimes, which
simulate real life, which I think is very important, as Project Cars is a simulation game and
should be as accurate as possible in every way. When the BTM tire was present, laptimes
were down to 2:14. When the SETA mod was introduced the car was a nightmare to drive
and no one got on with it until the first round of changes were made which made the car
19
understeer at lot but brought the times to a realistic level of 2:19. The stability was changed
and has improved the car a lot along with the kerbs being more defined in design and
having more grip which is great, but I am running zero downforce and myself and Joni
Varis are down to 2:16’s which puts the car in a more unrealistic ball park.
I have 2 questions about an idea I had, the first one was to have a brake bias button
option as at the moment you are unable to change the brake balance whist you are
driving, and can only change it when you go to the car setup screen. Most games I have
played give you this option as drivers in real life change the brake bias regularly whilst in
the car.
My second idea is just down to small detail of the tyre barriers. In real life, when you crash
into a tyre barrier, depending on the impact speed, when you hit the barrier it deforms and
absorbs the impact. In the game it acts like a brick wall where the car just bounces off at
high speed, the graphics of the marks on the tyre wall look great, I just wondered if making
it more realistic on impact would be possible. It is just an idea ☺
Thanks guys,
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
Ok guys, so this is my second blog this week, and this post is going to be referring to Build
380 and the new physics on the karts.
So, there are a lot of things that I think could be improved on the details of the karts i.e. the
way it looks, the shapes of curtain things and just the fine small detail down to the material
of the seat and steering wheel etc. I will not go on about them changes in this post as at
the moment I am purely focussed on the handling, meaning that the details and artistic
stuff can come later.
Firstly, this version is a night and day difference compared to the versions before, as they
were just completely undrivable. I think it is great to have a single speed kart as this will
appeal to a lot of people. For me personally, they are now driveable and from a standard
feel perspective are along the right lines and have made a good first step, but there is
quite a long way to go to make it absolutely perfect.
What I like at the moment is that I have noticed that the basic movement of the chassis is
there, e.g. there is a little bit of hopping mid corner, and you can see the chassis starting to
flex which is great. The tyres seem to be in much better shape and are this time helping the
kart turn into the corner, rather than working against you by not turning at all.
I think to make this as realistic as possible the karts chassis, brakes and tyres need to all work
in the correct way to get the maximum feel out of it. The way a kart handles is very unique
and therefore is going to be very difficult to replicate down to the last millimetre, but I think
we should give it our best shot.
Brakes
Firstly are the brakes as they are a big factor in how the kart reacts into a corner, in pretty
much every form of motorsport, most of the lap time can be found and lost under braking,
20
braking is a fine art which you can never stop learning, and can sometimes be the make or
break of a driver. Braking in a kart is very important as what you do with the brakes
determines how quickly you can go through the corner. Brakes on a kart are quick and
sharp and you can use the effect of the brakes to make the kart turn and pivot into the
corner. Most of the braking is done in a straight line just like racing in a car, but it is what
you do in the last parts of the braking phase that can change the attitude of the kart.
At the moment the kart lacks under braking as there is no quickness or sharpness to them,
meaning that you have to brake and wait for the kart to slow down before you turn, rather
than braking, turning, and using the grip of the tyres as well as the stiffness of the chassis to
‘scrub’ the speed off. Everyone has their own driving styles, but for me I use the brakes to
make the kart pivot and turn into the corner. I think it would be great if we can get the
brakes locking the rear wheels with just one ‘stab’ of the brake pedal, this way, people will
get the feeling of how a kart feels under braking and can then either adapt their driving
style to compensate for the brakes (which sometimes you have to do in real life) or just
make changes to whatever is suitable for them. The kart at the moment has a slight hint of
pivoting during braking at high speed which is great, but low speed, there is a very big
delay under braking which stops the kart being able to pivot.
Steering
Next is the steering, at the moment I feel I have to turn way too much to get the kart to do
what I want. It almost feels like the steering wheel is not connected to the ‘Steering Boss’
and is floating in mid-air, as you have to keep ‘stabbing’ at the wheel to get it to turn. I
have to use ‘full lock’ quite often through hairpins and through small ‘kinks’ which is very
unrealistic, as I have never used ‘full lock’ in a kart to go through a corner in real-life.
Karting is all about using minimal amount of steering lock and the steering should be very
direct and instant, at the moment this is not the case and is a big problem in the feel of
realism. Steering in a kart can come down to braking, tyres, chassis etc. In some cases you
can ‘stab’ at the wheel to get the front to turn in better or you can change your braking to
get it to pivot into the corner.
I think the main changes for the steering should be making it more instant and direct so
that you do not have to use ‘full lock or ‘stab’ at the wheel to get it to turn. Smoothness
and a straight wheel at all times is the success to being quick in a kart, and at the moment
you are unable to do any of these.
Tyres
The tyres on a kart are obviously very important as different make of tyres and tyre
compounds can change the attitude and performance of the kart dramatically. I
personally think that the tyres on the Project Cars kart need to be more sticky and grippy as
at the moment they seem to have a lot of understeer to a point, but then produce some
grip mid corner. Air temperature is obviously very important also, as the warmer it is, the
‘stickier’ the rubber is, producing more grip as well as making it harder to turn the steering
wheel and can also create more hopping through corners. This is something that we need
to take into account as the different whether conditions, hot or cold should change the
way the kart handles affecting lap time etc.
Sounds
21
Sounds of the engine and especially the tyres can be improved, at the moment the tyres
are making the ‘skidding; noise every time you turn the wheel which is unrealistic, to
improve this we need to define the noise to the way the kart is acting to make it accurate.
‘Locking’ up etc., should all be defined to that correct action.
One quick thing I noticed was that, if you accelerate from being stationary, the engine
revs up until it actually starts moving, this shouldn’t happen as when you pull off you should
have instant torque and the engine note should start low and then start to gradually rise.
Below is a video which I found of a Rotax TonyKart, there are many things in this video
which will help explain to you what I have been talking about e.g. braking, locking up,
making the kart pivot. The sounds of the engine, which I think could really improve the
sound in Project Cars and also the sound of the tyres ‘skidding and ‘locking up’ sound
different to the game.
Lastly, two things that I noticed which I thought I would mention is, the driving view from
inside the kart, the camera should sit a little lower as it starts off a bit too high which doesn’t
give you the sense that you are sitting in the kart, I lowered the camera myself, but you
could change the default settings to make this normal.
Secondly is the Force Feedback, I originally struggled with the Force Feedback being too
weak and then realised that I needed to add the FFB Tweaker, which I did and it improved
it, but when the kart is sitting at idle and the wheel simulates vibration from the engine, it
shakes a massive amount and I have to stop it with my hands, I am not sure if this is just me
or everyone is having this, but it is a little too much and I thought I should tell you guys.
I hope you guys enjoyed reading my feedback, everyone is entitled to their opinion, this is
just mine. ☺
Thanks,
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Nic, what track are you testing at? I am getting some of that, and know the front is not
pinning down quite right, which is probably what is underlying the steering shortcomings
you note. However, I am not really getting much in the way of what sounds like a 'flat
tuned' kart you describe (when a kart does not jack enough, I call it 'flat', and it understeers
on entry, eventually jacks enough and grips mid, then sometimes does a snap-understeer
on exit as the jack drops*).
With respect to the front pinning issue, I am not sure we'll be able to get the chassis
approximation on the current system to do much better, but I do still have some ideas to
compensate for it by adjusting the tires. So I still have hope we can get a better net result.
The braking is something I have not addressed at all yet. I totally agree with your braking
comments. I see in the files that it is full rear bias, but it sure does not feel like rear brake kart
braking yet. I have not really even isolated a core deficiency wrt to the braking yet, but I
suspect it too is chassis model limited and I'll have to compensate with the tires.
22
on race day, if I'm flat, I usually just throw caster at it. On a test day I'll try to soften chassis
and rebalance the setup. I try to use as little caster as possible and let the kart chassis "flow"
under load better. Too much caster just dictates things, which flows less.
The sound is not really hooked properly to the tires yet for any car, including the karts. So
part of the tire sounds should improve when that happens.
The engine part is probably because the clutch has not been touched yet either to reflect
a 'convenience' clutch of a KF, Rotax, or TaG. At the moment it is probably closer to a
tuned clutch class (like KT100) than it should be. All I did for this first pass was change the
torque curve to be good for single speed and drop it to 1 gear. I did not touch the clutch.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hi Andy,
I have done most of my testing at the Belgian Forest Kart Track. What I think the best thing
is, to have the braking balance and steering correct, with both of them being accurate
we should then be able to define the attitude of the chassis, at the moment for me, the
steering and braking are so far out, that it doesn't give me the correct feedback or feeling
to what the chassis is doing. I think you are right, it does jack as it should, but it needs to
react more to what you do with the steering and brakes.
I think you should leave the tires and chassis as they are at the moment, change the
steering and brakes to have better feeling and realism and then try that and see how it
feels. We can then compensate with the tires if we feel we need to, but at the moment,
the more accurate the steering and brakes are, the better we can see how the chassis is
reacting. Once the base feeling is good we can then adjust the setup accordingly.
OK, I'll head to the Belgian Forest Kart Track. From there I'll address the steering and brakes.
The steering is the tires to a large extent though, since at least on my screen and rig, the
steering ratio looks about right. Well, there is also the non-rack Ackerman thing that karts
do, but that may not be within scope of what we can address well on this chassis model,
and I think that is more of a second order effect anyway wrt the current feel shortcoming
you describe (and I hope I note as well at Spa). The lowest hanging fruit for steering rate
and aggressive front bite is going to be the front tire optimum slip angle and bite.
Ben Collins:
Had a great weekend driving the Lotus 98T Renault Turbo !
The graphics take you back to the 80's and i should have known this car would be a
blinder - a fitting tribute to Ayrton Senna who made this machine dance like no other.
Well.. This car is awesome!! It is unique in so many ways and for me the most fun to drive,
the most forgiving and the most rewarding.
Bologna / Imola
23
Graphics
I love the driver position right on top of the wheel. Crucially the screen rotates ever so
slightly when the car BEGINS to slide and that really helps the drivability. There’s also a
sense of dive on the brakes and turn in.
Turn In
This car really goes where you point it. I can put it all the way over the kerbs and actually
feel it squirm at the rear to let me know it’s on the limit – ‘don’t push your luck’!
Braking
It stops beautifully but the fantastic thing with this Lotus is the way it punishes you if you
squeeze a fraction too hard at the end of the braking zone. Very accurately, once the
downforce has bled off and the tyre no longer has that support, this car starts to lock a
front and / or a rear tyre. It’s magic.
And the best part is that these slides are recoverable. When a rear tyre snatches you can
pulse the brakes, and the tyre responds immediately. This means you can really push the
car.
Transition
The transition from grip to sliding in this car is superb.
It allows gradual on power slides: Entering the skid is quite gradual and with some help from
steering feedback it would be extremely life like
It also allows off power slides when you overcook it on corner entry with too much brake
(locking the rears) or just too fast. The great thing with the Lotus is that you end up very
sideways, eating up the track until the speed rubs off and then back under control. Bang
on.
Mid corner
The real life steering lets this car get placed wherever you like – it has really good mid
corner grip and feel
Traction / corner exit
I pick up a little of the sim’s understeer on the exit of the last two corners at Imola
Most of the time the car is beautifully balanced and you can squeeze the throttle with a
sense of the car gradually reacting to your input.
Overall
Just superb. The way the Lotus 98T darts around feels aggressive, and just like the real thing.
PS Ryan Caines did a sweet job to manage a 1min 18 second lap around Bologna in the
Renault – would love to see the video. Smoking laptime dude!
24
Casey Ringley:
Great stuff, Ben. Thanks. J Very nice to know the 98T can be used as a sort of baseline for
that type of car. Will really help as we continue to develop the new tire model.
I'm curious to hear your opinion of the small prototype cars, the Racers, Palmer Jag and
Caterham SP300. I know this type of car should have a fair amount of understeer, but
wonder if maybe it is too far biased that way if our current setups and the rear has become
too stable. Would be much appreciated if you could give them a blast in your next session.
Ben Collins:
Valid point - the Alfa 8C is a dog of TVR proportions!
But the 98T isn't - i've not had a chance to drive one but having thrashed Fittipaldi's Lotus
'72 around the Ascari circuit it dashed any conceptions i had about the older generation
F1 cars being hard or horrible to drive. Some were of course. The '72 was a doddle - it let
you get quite sideways and there was plenty of feel on the brakes. At high speed the car
skated through the corners with absolute predictability and its that skating that seems very
hard to replicate in the sim - the 98T sim has cracked some of that but remains 'stiffer' and
less skaty than my '72 experience, which i reckon is about right.
The modern F1 cars are much more glued, bony creatures but the power delivery is super
clean and the throttle delicately unlocks the transition from u/steer to oversteer at the
apex, with the aggressive turn in I mentioned before. The only sim i remember with that
sense of turn in was the Microprose GP3 (very dated i know) and if you were too rough with
your line / heavy handed it snapped the tail sideways. But it gave the driver more control
over line and set up because you could tune in more turn in with the aero / suspension
settings to drive Lewis Hamilton style or take it out for a more gradual approach.
As for the 98T i think Brundle's assessment of the real thing says it all and this is a cracking
film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkIAuMTJSmI
The 98T sim is a real stand out because of the amount of feel and recoverability it gives you
(in terms of era note the Nigel Mansell save in the above archive footage). It feels alive
and so far the most realistic experience I've had with a sim, even though there's more we
can do with it.
Ben Collins:
Caterham 500
Graphics
The vision over the hood is very realistic and I love the way you sense the nose leading,
follwed by your butt. It’s not over the top, just enough to doff a cap at the real thing.
Sound
It’s the right kind of sound – but the 500 is slightly more mental. To state the obvious I’ve
cranked the volume which helped but the more gruff the better.
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Traction
Off the mark at the grid for instance – the wheels should spin instantly at full throttle and
currently the car lets you get away with it and pulls off smartly. It really should let rip with
wheelspin and simultaneously shoot off the mark.
Handling
Way too much understeer.
In reality - at very high speed the Caterham does settle, which is a mercy, and you can
enter a high speed corner with a fairly neutral understeer and predict where you’re going.
Unless you’re rough with the steering in which case it will bite and kick you sideways. Then
it’s all hands on deck.
At lower speeds the Cat is unusual in that if you drive very carefully (with the steering) it’s
possible to drive a corner with some understeer because there’s so much weight over the
rear axle, making the tyres grip, so little over the front.
But you don’t drive carefully. You take it in by the bit and point it at the apex to make the
rear glide, then balance it on the throttle.
So in reality it’s oversteer from the beginning, its very snappy in the way the rear grips and
skids – but not in the sense of terminal snap oversteer. It’s quite controllable, but the grip
comes and goes aggressively a bit like a kart.
Ditto on the throttle – you tend to work it a fair amount to take advantage of moments of
grip until you really nail the best way to bring it on progressively and hold the slide from
apex to exit.
The current settings feel very prohibitive at the front end so if we can address this first we
could perhaps then turn to the on power dynamics?
Braking
I like the lock ups which are correctly front biases and as per the real thing they are easily
controlled. It would be magic to see a puff of blue smoke in varying degrees to help
indicate how big the lock up is as the Caterham gives a lot of feedback this way.
Footage from a former life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDGNS-NxfNo
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys, so this post is referring to the latest Build 384 and the latest version of the BAC
Mono that we have.
So, personally I have never driven this car, but Ben I am sure has done in the past so, his
feedback will probably be more accurate, but here is mine anyway ☺
When I first started driving this car I thought it was fantastic fun and very easy to control as
you can throw the car around and catch slides very easily which is really cool. For me this
car is the easiest to control when it gets out of shape as it is very reactive and sensitive
when you need to correct it, which adds to the fun factor. I also feel that it is very well
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balanced as the car never snaps and is very forgiving. The fact that you have to do so
much with the steering wheel to keep the car straight on entry and exit of corners really
makes you feel like you are driving it,
My main concern is the amount of understeer that it has, which forces you to drive it
unrealistically, by this I mean the way that you have to ‘stab’ at the wheel and basically
throw the front in to get it to go into the corner, whereas it should be a nice, smooth and
progressive motion. When a car naturally begins to understeer, you do have to turn more
and sometimes ‘stab’ at the wheel, but this is usually in the wet and should not be the case
with the BAC around hot places like Monterey.
Because of the amount of steering lock needed and lack of grip, it feels like you are driving
on worn tyres as there is understeer going in where the tyres feel like they are just
‘scrubbing’ and not gripping, and oversteer coming out where there is low traction when
the rear tyres are under load. It also feels like you are driving in the wet, as it gives you the
same feeling of turning to a point where the tyres are just ‘scrubbing’, waiting for it to grip
and then controlling the lack of traction on the exit.
I personally do not think that the basic balance of the car is a problem, as if I was driving
this in real life I would ask for different tyres and then go from there as the balance of the
car in terms of movement and stability is there. The BAC Mono does not have ‘full slick
tyres’ in real life so if we changed the tyres and increased the grip to the same level as the
BTM mod used to be then that would be unrealistic. There needs to be a fine balance, so
by just increasing the tyre grip slightly would improve it.
Take a look at this video below, as it will tell you some valuable information about how the
car reacts in real life. The guy driving it says that it reminds him of driving a Formula 3 car
that obviously has plenty of grip and is very planted. It also seems that it does not require
much steering lock to go through corners, which is the opposite of what we have now.
Looking at how the rear behaves in the video, it seems that the front is very positive whilst
the rear produces a little less grip causing it to move just slightly which helps the car turn
mid-corner.
In the game, the rear feels very planted which makes the understeer worse, there is slight
movement from the rear on initial entry which helps turn in, but not enough to stop the
understeer mid-corner to exit meaning that to get the car to turn mid corner you have to
use the power which creates enough oversteer to get the car pointed where you want,
but sometimes to much causing an unnecessary slide, I personally like it, as it adds to the
fun, but is unrealistic compared to how the car behaves in the video, where there is slight
movement from the rear and then plenty of traction and stability on exit.
Lastly, going back to the car feeling like you are driving in the wet, if the current physics of
the car was for driving in the wet then I think it is great, but more grip from the tyres is what I
think is needed because I think the general balance is fine.
Thanks guys,
Nic
Ben Collins:
Ariel Atom
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In real life the Atom 300 is actually quite an easy car to drive. Where it really does come to
life and cause some fun havoc is in the wet but that’s another story.
With The Supercharger you get this awesome whine from the engine to remind you that
you’ve stepped on something that might bite, perhaps we could hear a bit more of it on
the sim. It really picks up and flings you down the road and the power is able to balance
the car quite instantly into oversteer – controllably up to a point.
At the point the Atom reaches a rate of yaw it deems over the top (which is quite forgiving
given the stiff racelike low-profile tyres) it tends to carry you in the direction its pointing and
then spin.
You can also get it squirming around the apex and deliberately get the chassis to engage
by being fairly positive with the steering.
Under braking the Atom is a bit like the Caterham in that you tend to lock up the unloaded
front wheels. However, you feel more engaged with lock ups in the Atom because it won’t
quite turn in with a front locked. That means you go off line and have to turn in late,
leading you to the next issue.
Thanks to the ambitious cornering speed this car affords owing to its high grip threshold,
you end up turning in too late AND too fast because of that lock up which makes the rear
want to snap oversteer.
It makes braking in the Atom particularly hairy and is one of its unique personality traits.
When you get it right its very rewarding because its such a challenge – a bit like driving a
go kart on the brakes (but for different reasons since the kart only has rear brakes)
SIM
The reason I’ve banged on about reality is because currently the braking on the sim feels
very similar to a ‘normal’ track car and possibly there’s scope to tune it.
The braking on the Sim doesn’t give enough credit to the stopping power of the Atom, I
think it should have more braking grip and more visible dive to allow you to guage how to
squeeze the pedal in tune with weight transfer. With an Atom you have to let the weight
bite the front tyres before you squeeze the last bit of braking out of it. Currently it feels quite
glassy and easy to have a major front lock up.
In terms of handling – the turn in on the Atom Sim is very life like (subject to surviving
braking) then on power as you try and build a balance mid corner it gets really vicious.
The real life Atom is quite a predictable beast beyond the braking / turn in phase, so
perhaps once we’ve had a tinker with the Sim’s braking it might affect the rest as well? We
don’t want understeer, but it should be possible to get the Atom into a little drift and be
able to hold it there. Right now the Sim is too aggressive at punishing a minor infraction.
Graphics
The feel and size of the wheel are perfect. I also love the juddering / hop you get in a
grippy corner on the unloaded front wheel – nice touch!!
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Also, i may have this wrong, but the Mugen Atom feels more predictable for some reason.
This will probably where you tell me the handling characteristics are identical - but i found it
a fraction easier, more lifelike, to balance on the power.. And it felt a tiny bit better on the
brakes. Feel free to wade in with the truth AJ !!
Casey Ringley:
This is fantastic stuff, Ben. Keep it coming. J
The Mugen and Supercharged are pretty close to identical, but the Mugen is lighter by
30kg which will surely make a noticeable difference in cars this size. Sounds like what we
need to sort out is getting some of the bite and confidence into the tires much like Nic and
many others have noted is missing from the Z4 (among others). Very cool to hear that the
Atom is pretty close on the turn in phase; that's probably the area I was most concerned
about! I think with a tweak to the tires to get the brakes feeling right the rest will fall in line,
as you predict. Have an experiment going right now on the small prototype cars to adapt
some of what AJ has done to get more bite in the kart tires, and so far results are quite
promising. Applying it to the Atoms may have to wait until next week. I'll make sure to notify
you when it has had some changes and is worth testing again.
Ben Collins:
Driving in the wet
Took the 98T for a blast round imola in the wet – tons of fun!
I tried Rain and full storm.
Rain
Didn’t spend long here because I kept driving for my perception of the conditions – so I
moved on to full wet.
Thunderstorm
Felt much happier in these conditions for resembling racing in the rain. I think if there’s an
area where we should really push the boundaries on what is feasible for people to cope
with – it should be in full wet!
GRAPHICS
I think the general graphics in the rain with CARS are truly stunning. Better than any sim or
game I’ve ever driven by far, and so convincing that I really believed I was driving on a
wet track.
What I would say is that when the track appears glossy like that, it tells you that it’s full wet
conditions and there will be puddles*. (see below) so I would suggest perhaps a more matt
finish in the ‘lighter rain’, perhaps with the odd glossy bit to indicate the more flooded
sections – sections to be avoided!
(To be fair the characteristics in the dry with rubber markings on the racing lines and
heavier into the braking zones etc has been mightily impressive. What I love the most is that
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if you put down a skid mark it stays there for your next lap and it’s a familiar feeling from
real life as people fly off the circuit and you get a feel for corners causing problems on a
given day.)
Point of view
Superb and Thunderstorm is closer to the real thing in terms of vision than in RAIN. In terms
of rain droplets size I think they are at their maximum! Unless we consider the view through
the visor but I think most people would prefer to see more than 2 feet in front of them.
So in terms of the spray – the rooster tail being thrown out by the other cars – I reckon
Thunderstorm is about right for RAIN – but in the heaviest rain conditions the spray coming
out the back of the cars is even worse. You really have to know the track and drive by feel.
You can only make out the rain lights as you close in – I think our rain lights are a little on
the dim side but perhaps that because I didn’t race them in the 80’s – maybe that’s how
they were.
Track grip
The grip is definitely too high for braking, cornering and the straights in the rain &
thunderstorm conditions. I found myself creeping onto the throttle slowly because my eye
was convinced by the graphics to expect low grip. By the end I drove almost as hard as in
the dry.
I wouldn’t want the 98T to be undriveable in the wet but I think it’s worth tweaking. In
particular TRACTION out of corners is far too good. I would expect this car to be sliding
unless you brought the power in much more gradually.
CORNERING grip is a little too high – I wouldn’t suggest killing it completely but it was
definitely too planted.
In terms of BRAKING I checked my markers and at the end of the Imola straight it was
basically the same as in the dry. In FULL wet that would be impossible because of:
Puddles – we need puddles.
The glossy sheen indicates that the asphalt isn’t channeling water off the surface and you
can guarantee standing water. Some tracks are worse than others – like Spa after Eau
Rouge and towards Blanchimont – Le Mans in all the straights and certainly Imola on the pit
straight you can be sure it will have flooded sections.
What you could imagine at Imola would be to exit the final corner and probably get to 3rd
gear when the wheels will start spinning in the straight. If you’re brave you just carry on
through it with some opposite lock and get to 4th gear asap.
From somewhere around where the pit wall starts and to especially beyond the pit wall exit
– you could expect to encounter big puddles of standing water where you have a major
aquaplane event. The trouser filling kind where the car could be picked up and turned
around and you’re along for the ride, hoping to pull a 360, or two, and stay on the straight.
After that you develop a mental map of where the puddles are and start to approach
them with a bit more caution – but you will always be juggling serious aquaplane to
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produce a lap time in really wet conditions.
Sometime you get some standing water in the braking areas too and if you’re alone (not
sat in someone’s spray) you have a chance to try and spot these areas by looking for the
signs of that glossy sheen I referred to earlier. Aquaplane on the brakes tends to be less
eventful than in the straights because at least you’re trying to slow down, rather than
accelerating and wheelspinning in 5th or 6th.!!
I may be suggesting something impossible, I don’t know, but if we were able to create an
environment like this and map flooded sections of track I think we would have by far the
most realistic experience imaginable. Visually you have it all – I think that’s why I feel so
strongly about expecting the track behaviour to match the superb graphics because I was
so convinced by the authenticity.
I wrote quite a long section about racing in the wet in my book (which I’m not trying to
promote here!!) and I’ve copied a relevant section below, though I’m sure you’ve seen
plenty of wet F1 footage with cars rotating in the straights, just thought this might be
helpful..
The Ascari dropped on to the deck; the signal was given. My hands were poised over the
ignition and start buttons and I cranked the motor. It was already in first gear. A touch on
the throttle provoked a lightning howl. The Kraken was fully awake. I slipped the clutch and
pulled away into the night.
I was soaked to the skin within seconds. Goblets of water fell out of the sky, whirring
towards me at warp speed. As I slid under the Dunlop bridge my visor picked up the
blurred lights of the Ferris wheel and inter- mittent bursts of flash photography. Only diehard fans stayed out in this.
I sped on, my headlamps carving a 50-metre tunnel through the dark- ness. I accelerated
away from Tertre Rouge in third gear and hammered down the Mulsanne straight,
scanning for other cars, searching for puddles. The glistening surface ahead gave nothing
away.
I had no idea where Harri had run into trouble. If I made the same mistake I might not be so
lucky. I approached the first chicane, scanning sideways along the Armco barriers for
something to reference: the marshal’s post, the tree, the gap in the wall, anything that
wouldn’t move, for use as a braking point.
I turned right a little for the chicane, then regretted it and straightened again as the car
aquaplaned. My stomach tightened as the wheels lost contact with the road; I resisted the
temptation to over-correct the steering or brake harder and waited for the car to ‘land’.
The engine note returned, telling me the worst was over.
I accelerated cautiously out the other side and back on to the straight, short-shifted into
fifth gear and everything went deathly quiet.
The car hit a river of water on the left side of the track at a speed of 150mph. All four
wheels lost contact with the tarmac and I travelled 100 metres in freefall. The rear of the
Ascari yawed to the right, verging on a fatal high-speed spin, crossed to the right side of
the track and ran fast towards the grass. Once there I had another four metres before
engaging with the Armco barrier. The odds favoured a hit more than a skim. Broken
suspension at the very least.
Drastic action was required.
I stopped correcting the slide and centred the steering in a supreme effort to keep off the
grass. As the wheels brushed the white line bordering the circuit the puddles retreated
and the car straightened up. The Mulsanne straight had two chicanes to prevent speeds
exceeding
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Untitled Motoring.indd 49 02/09/2010 15:3850 // The Man in the White Suit
250mph. The Rain God had bequeathed it a third but I now knew where it was – and how
to drive it.
I motored on, savouring the guilty pleasure of a close shave. No need to tell the team
about that one. Sixth gear was redundant because you couldn’t hold the throttle down
long enough in a straight line to engage it, unless I could locate the rest of the puddles. I
chuntered along in fifth gear and counted the seconds between the big puddles, forming
a mental map of the sections of track where it was safe to go faster next time round.
The first lap confirmed that Mulsanne was the worst affected straight and I began adjusting
my lines accordingly. I remained cautious, but the car was revelling in the conditions. It was
giving so much feedback through the tyres.
The team were quiet on the radio and there was no chance of seeing the pit board. I was
alone, but contentedly busy in the mad world of Le Mans at night in a monsoon. I
developed a rhythm and took my chances, passing one car after another, straining every
rod in my retinas as I searched for a hint of tail-light or a familiar silhouette in the clouds of
spray that cloaked every one of them.
The racer ahead might be a prototype as fast as the one I was driving or a GT car
travelling at 100mph. The driver might be on the pace and in the zone, or half asleep, or
gently urinating himself in response to the conditions.
The first he would know of my existence would be when his cockpit rocked from the blast
of my jetwash as I passed his front wheels. Riskier still was tracking down another prototype
caught behind one or even two of the slower GTs.
Every sensible bone in my body urged caution. But too much caution and I could be
caught in their web for eternity. It was best to take a risk, splash past them and move on. I
moved to overtake one guy just as he summoned the courage to hump the car ahead of
him, which I couldn’t see. He swung towards me and elbowed me on to the grass at the
exit of the curves. I gathered it up and outbraked him at the following chicane as two GTs
collided with each other. It was carnage.
I took my chances, like everyone else. The laps flew by, an additional puddle formed on
Mulsanne and I figured a cute route through it without lifting. Before I realised it, an hour
had passed. The low fuel light on the dash plinked on. I flicked a toggle to engage the
reserve tank for the trip back to the pits.
I drove the in lap hard, not forgetting the pit lane might be flooded too. Earlier in the day
I’d watched another driver skidding a damaged GT into the gravel pit at the pit entrance.
He’d tried to push it out, but was forced to abandon it by the marshals, only metres away
from his pit crew who were powerless to help him.
Ben Collins:
Bathurst – Thunderstorm – 98T
Apart from wanting to share the awesome experience of driving the F1 car around
Bathurst in the wet (highly recommended) I also noticed a few interesting items.
After I planted the 98T into the wall (twice) it removed the wing mirrors and I was then able
to see the individual front wheels locking AND feel the feedback through the steering
wheel. The combination was absolutely brilliant and the behaviour of the tyres was bang
on – great job.
Under heavy braking into turn one the brakes would just snap the inside left front – and into
the banked corners the sim seemed to detect when a front tyre was unloaded and let it
lock up but crucially without killing the car’s stopping power. This is extremely lifelike and
something I’ve not experienced before in a sim.
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Would it be possible to re-position the mirrors in such as way that lets you see the front
wheels because I think that point-of-view is very lifelike, it’s exciting and gives you a much
better sense of the limit?
GLITCH – I moved the car to Bologna, then returned to Bathurst and the 98T would no
longer let me lock a tyre AT ALL. I don’t know if that’s a bug but somehow it managed to
create a load more grip for itself and I was unable to lock a tyre regardless how late or
hard I braked.
Very excited by the potential you’re building into the braking Casey because braking and
turn in, from view at least, are what racing is all about. That and the balance on the
throttle – which is coming along nicely!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is referring to Build 390 and the new BMW M3 E30.
So far I have been testing at two different tracks, which are Monterey and Eifelwald GP.
Monterey
The first track I drove was Monterey which to be fast requires a good front end. At first it
took me a while getting used to the car as I had just finished a run with the Racer L4-RS, so
the disciplines are completely opposite which is to be expected.
In my first few laps, the two main characteristics I noticed were, heavy understeer, but
good traction on exit. Obviously this car does not have aero, apart from the rear wing,
which in real life is not that affective, so what you are looking for is good ‘mechanical’
balance and grip, which you can start to play with using camber’s, toe, etc. As there is
quite a lot of understeer, I made changes to the ‘diff’, which improved the front end mid
corner, but understeer on entry is still an issue as it feels like the front tyres are not ‘gripping’
up, so you get that ‘scrubbing’ sensation again like you are driving on worn tyres. Even with
the diff changes and zero rear wing, the rear is still very stable and planted which makes
the understeer worse. I think the overall balance is good, and the fact that the car bites
you if you are on the power to early is great, as it teaches you to be patient and have the
wheel straight before you pick the power up which is a lesson learned for racing in real life.
Eifelwald GP
I then drove the car at Eifelwald GP and tried to develop a setup that made the rear of
the car turn to get rid of the understeer. I succeeded in finding a way to dial out the
understeer and to make the rear turn on entry. It requires a more smooth steering input,
which is good as it takes away the unrealistic steering lock angles we used to have with
previous cars. Although the car is now set up to be looser, there is still an element of
‘laziness’ from the front, which I think should be the main focus in solving. I also noticed that
there is less traction at this track which helps the car turn compared to Monterey as I took
my new developed setup from Eifelwald to Monterey and could not get the rear to move
at all which brought back the understeer that I had already gotten rid of at Eifelwald. This
might be down to track grip level, but you guys may have other reasons.
33
Braking
I think braking is a very positive attribute for this car as it is very stable during the braking
phase, but as you start to brake later, the car starts to get out of shape which you can
control with opposite lock and other techniques. When braking late, you can also start to
feel the front tyres starting to lock which with both of these characteristics added together,
gives you the realistic feeling of being on the limit of the tyre under braking. Which I think is
great.
Kerbs
The main problem I have found with this car is the kerbs at Eifelwald, it reminds me of how
the Asano X4 was a while back when as soon as you turn in and touch a kerb its pretty
much game over and there is nothing you can do to get it back. For me I think that the
behaviour of the cars when they use the kerbs in this game is a big problem as I have now
found myself not using any kerbs at all generally as they are all slippery, just like you a
driving in the wet. Once you are on power and drive to the exit kerb the car just ‘wheel
spins’, loses traction and that’s it. This does not happen with every kerb in the game, but
the way they act I think is very inconsistent and unrealistic in some cases. The ‘brick wall’
affect when you use a kerb needs solving as this is obviously very unrealistic and affects so
many parts of your driving, such as braking; racing line, exit speed etc.
The overall balance of the car is very manageable with a controllable rear end when it
gets out of shape and is nice and enjoyable to drive. I feel that the base handling of the
cars in the game have improved since I have been a part of this project, as when we first
started with the STM tire mod, the basic balance of the cars were all over the place,
whereas now it is fantastic to see that even with a new car, the balance is at a higher
level, meaning that the car is easier to fine tune,
Time of day/Track grip
Firstly I want to say that the graphics are awesome for the different times of day, I think they
are pretty much spot on in terms of visuals. I found that regardless of the time of day and
whether you are in summer or winter, the track grip is still the same. Track temperature and
conditions play a massive part in motorsport as they can affect so many different things.
Small detail such as warming the tyres up when you come out of the pits should be
introduced, with tyres taking longer or shorter time to come in (heat up) depending on the
time of day and the whether conditions. I know that at the moment the game does show
tyre temperatures, but the affect of them does not exist.
At the start of a race weekend, if the track has not been used for a while it is what is known
as ‘Green’, which is when the track is dirty, slippery and not rubbered in. This means that
from when the first session goes out which is around 9am the track is cold, sometimes
damp and lap times are slow. At the moment in the game it seems that there is instant grip
as soon as you come out of the pits, and no matter what time of day it is, the track
conditions are the same. Driving on cold tyres is one of the hardest things for drivers to
master as the heating process varies on different cars. This is something that I think should
be introduced into Project Cars, as this will make it even more realistic.
Thanks guys
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Nic
Ben Collins:
PCARS - one very VERY happy bunny here:
From version 386
To: Version 387
Formula A – Imola / Bologna
I LOVE this car now – on a par with the 98T it’s bloody epic.
Braking – superb
Dynamic, responsive, tons of feel & feedback, real drivability – it now knocks you slightly
wide of your line when braking too deep by just locking a front tyre and giving a little
understeer. Truly excellent.
Graphics work really well on the Formula A because the layout allows you to see the
locking front tyre AND feel the feedback. All working in tune (I had to smash the mirrors off
my 98T to see the tyres..!)
At very high speed it’s also possible to just nip a front tyre and again it’s super realistic
Turn in – SUPERB!!!
This new version is fantastic, you’ve done such an awesome job here Casey and the
PCARS Team. A big leap forward on turning power and being able to put the car exactly
where you want it. The sense of control now is really there – to the point where it’s possible
to unsettle the car on turn in, giving the driver a lot more options to express him/herself.
The only negative I’m finding now is being penalized for kerbing the apexes, ie having lap
times disallowed – this seems to happen all too easily and I lose three quarters of my laps –
I’m feeling hard done by!
I agree things like straight lining the chicane should be picked up but ideally the usual stuff
like hopping apex kerbs would not – the track should restrict overuse by only gripping to a
point before then unsettling the rear of the car, or in the low speed / high kerb areas
bounce the front away from where you want it.
Traction
Ok here’s my only slight complaint. The balance is so good now that we have the power to
turn in with realism, but on power the car is difficult to read and to trust.
I’m still doing most of my laps at Imola on heavy tanks – so getting a good feel for low /
medium / high speed comparisons. As the speed increases the traction issue eases but
only a little, and not when you’re on the limit at the apex.
Low Speed
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Out of Tosa in 2nd you can pick up the throttle but the car is making me induce understeer
(to prevent snap oversteer) by getting on power prematurely and very slowly increasing it
to make the nose sit up, rear to squat.
When I get it to balance properly and try to drive out the car takes an initial set (not quite
sliding) and then snaps into a major slide or spin. Very hard to recover. The car should offer
more feedback before it snaps and wriggle quite sharply rather than skipping to KILL.
Medium speed
At Rivazza the turn in is beautiful. Even though the 2 corners are very similar the sim
interprets them differently because of the slight downhill nature of part 1 and I think that
kind of realism is phenomenal.
On power it is again super skaty, and you cant quite trust the car enough to get it into a
balanced set on power through the exit. I’ve seen a fair amount of other people’s footage
where they are ‘driving to the sim’ IE in a way that suits the sim rather than realistically, by
leaving the power late and then planting it in more or less a straight line – but we’ve come
this far so I think it would be great to sort this traction issue if it’s at all possible. It’s the final
frontier!
High speed
At Piratella the car darts in smartly, loving that, then it’s all hands on deck when the power
comes in. I confess I swore at the screen on one lap that felt perfect on the way into
Piratella until the rear broke free without any warning.
At this kind of speed the downforce would give you much more of a cushion than that –
you would feel some front slip in concert with rear movement to warn you a little at first,
and a more gradual slide if you just step over the limit. We are still on KILL, quite like driving
in the wet on too hard a tyre (like a slick) in terms of sensitivity when the rear breaks away.
I don’t know how it can be done but it would be great to feel more movement in the rear
of the car to be able to anticipate what is going on, and more pliability with the traction to
allow you to have a little more confidence. I’m only talking about a small amount – fine
tuning – because the Formula A is a real winner.
Keep it coming, the experience just keeps getting better!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so after finally sorting out my steering problems with the Z4, this post is going to be
based on what I have found with the changes that were made in Build 392.
So I have been doing most of my testing at Monterey as I have found that this track is really
good for comparing high speed and low speed balance.
What I feel with this car is pretty much ‘2 steps forward, 1 step back’. The general feeling of
the car is great with the front end being really nice and positive with the slight hint of
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‘laziness’ mid-corner, which I think is to be expected with a car like this, which has all of the
weight from the engine at the front.
I feel that the change in the tyres have created more of a feedback affect on the wheel,
(I may be wrong) but I think there is a better feeling in the wheel from what the front of the
car is doing, i.e. turning in and mid-corner you hit a bump and the wheel ‘jolts’ which I
have not had with the previous car. I personally would like to keep the feeling of the front
the same as I think it is the best it has been.
I have noticed one main problem with this car, which is the rear stability mid-corner, I have
been seeing a lot of people’s comments saying that the rear is lazy and the tyres feel that
there is a ‘cliff drop’. I would not say the rear is lazy as there is still some grip mid-corner
which gives you the feeling of the outside tyre working, but this is depending on how much
speed you carry in and whether the initial turn of the wheel was too much or not. It seems it
does not matter whether it is at high speed or low speed, but the rear either slides to a
point and grips, or slides to the same point and falls away.
I think it is a fine balance because there are some moments where the rear slides which
helps the car pivot making the front go in better which feels great, but it just happens
without you actually meaning to, which is not good for a racing driver as it feels like the
‘car is driving you’ instead of ‘you driving the car’.
The easiest way I can explain it would be that the ‘drop off point’ is inconsistent meaning
that the rear can fall away at any point. This then makes the rear unpredictable, so you are
unsure how much speed you can carry in. If I had this in real life, there would be no point in
trying to push because the rear wouldn’t let you and I would be driving with uncertainty.
This then would mean that the car setup needed to be changed in order for me to regain
the confidence.
To compensate for the problems I was having with the rear, I took most of the grip out of
the front, meaning less camber to make the front more ‘lazy’ and more downforce and
camper on the rear to make it more settled. What I am happy with is that the changes I
made worked in the correct way that they should have which was great making the rear
more manageable. The ‘drop off’ was still an issue, and the fact that there is no way of
controlling the slide when it gets to that point is unrealistic. In some way it is, as once you
reach the limit of grip that the tyre can produce, then there is no way of getting it back,
but from the way that you sometimes ‘drop off the cliff’ as soon as you turn in is just not
how it should be.
To conclude about the car, I would say to leave the front as it is, but to change the physics
or the tyre on the rear so that the ‘drop off’ is more realistic making the rear more
controllable in a slide.
Lastly I just want to say that the ‘brick wall’ problem we had with the kerbs are much
better, sometimes there is still a bug on the outside kerbs leading into a corner which
doesn’t cause the car to crash, but there is a ‘crashing’ sound/effect which causes debris
to fly around and sometimes affects the cars speed.
All in all, a really good job done. ☺
Thanks guys
Nic
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Handling Consultants Feedback – February 2013
FEBRUARY 2013
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is going to be about 2 cars in Build 397, the Ford Focus-RS and the Caterham
Superlight R500.
Ford Focus-RS
So as per usual I have done my testing around Monterey and I have found the general
experience of the car quite fun to drive. It is nice to have a FWD car being developed,
even if it is a road car.
I know some changes are being made in Build 400 which will help the issues I am going to
outline, but I will tell you anyway and then I will do another post about how I found the
changes.
Balance
The general balance of the car is quite oversteery which is to be expected as this car is
quite well known for its positive front end through high speed and low speed corners and
its oversteery nature. Personally I think that the balance has a little too much oversteer as
the rear is breaking away very easily on entry and is causing the car to drift unnecessarily.
With road tyres you would expect the car to be a little more lazy on turn in, and midcorner, which then makes the rear a bit more docile and not as ‘snappy’, but at the
moment it is almost like the front tyres are slick and the rears are road tyres. For me,
because of this I have noticed that through hairpins, only a small amount of steering lock is
needed as the rear keeps turning towards the exit which should not be the case in real life
as towards the exit you should be winding off the steering lock, but because the rear keeps
turning you are unable to do this.
The rear tyres at the moment feel like they are just following the front tyres by sliding
around. There is no feeling of the tyre sliding and gripping through a corner, whereas you
should be able to feel where the limit of the tyre is when you lean on it. With road tyres this
is more noticeable as you can feel the rear sliding due to the tread and sidewalls of the
tyre moving around. I think that this car needs to be a bit calmer and more evenly
balanced with the front being a little lazier making the rear slower and more progressive in
movement to give you the sliding and gripping feeling. This car in real life seems that it is set
up more for oversteer that is not too ‘snappy’ and is easy to control, as with FWD it is
important to get the front of the car turned in before you pick up the power, and so to do
this there needs to be an element of movement from the rear. In the game this happens,
but for me it is a little too much and just needs calming down a little to give you more of a
feeling of the rear sliding and not ‘snapping’ underneath you.
At the moment I do not notice any torque steer which this car is very well known for having.
It is very easy to plant the throttle without feeling any change of FFB through the wheel or
any behaviour change to the car. I think having changes in Feedback through the wheel
as well as behaviour changes to the front of the car when accelerating is very important in
replicating this car.
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I think overall the car has a very good base foundation to work from and I am sure that in
Build 400 with the changes that are going to be made, it will be a great step forward.
Caterham Superlight R500
This car is wicked fun for me, the balance is really nice and is the first car I have driven on
Project Cars where I have not changed the setup. The default is really nice and it acts and
reacts really well to any driving style. In real life these cars are great fun to drive and are
very well balanced which the game outlines really well.
If I was being really picky I would say that the rear slides a little too much, it is sort of the
same feeling as I got with the Ford Focus-RS, you turn to a point and then the rear slides for
you meaning that a small amount of steering input through a hairpin gives you more than
you need because the rear slides and does the rest for you. This then makes the steering
become really sensitive and just the slightest of movement from the wheel is needed to
turn the car. This is quite unrealistic, as a car should never turn more once you have gone
through the corner, and the feedback and effort you have to put into turning the car
should be more.
I made one change, which was lowing the rear ride height, which helped but a little more
grip from the rear is needed and if this could be changed then the car would be even
better.
As well as oversteer, there is a little amount of low-speed understeer which will become
worse once more grip to the rear is introduced, so I think that adding more general grip all
round will ‘tighten’ the car up, as even though it is well balanced and really fun to drive, it
needs a tiny bit more grip.
All in all, a really good car which is really fun to drive.
Well done guys, I will be back with more info soon ☺
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys, I hope everyone is well!
So this post is going to be focussing on the tyre testing with the Formula B car in Build 400,
which I tested at Besos GP.
So this week I have really enjoyed testing the tyres on this car. I struggled quite a lot to start
with on finding the right setup, as I was having trouble with traction and rear stability midcorner. I firstly didn’t know what the best tyre was to set up the car, so I used the comments
that you guys gave and set my car up on Compound A.
As I said, it took me a while to find the correct balance as the changes I made to the front
of the car affected the rear stability and visa versa. Once I found a decent all round setup,
I then started to test the other tyre compounds.
My feedback is going to conclude with 2 types of tyre, ‘Prime’ and ‘Option’ as these 2 tyre
compounds are used in both GP2 and Formula One and I think that both compounds
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should be in Project Cars. The ‘Formula B’ car is like GP2 and ‘Formula A ‘ is F1. In real life
both Formula One and GP2 use the same Pirelli ‘Option’ and ‘Prime’ tyres which means
that we need to find 2 good types of tyre compound which we can use on both the
‘Formula A’ and ‘Formula B’ cars.
Compound A (Option/Soft)
This tyre is all round the fastest of all 3 compounds that I have been testing and I think that
it has the best foundation to be the ‘Option’ tyre. It feels softer like the ‘Option’ tyre should,
but does not produce enough grip from what you would expect it to.
The front tyres feel better than compounds B and C with the tyre producing more grip on
entry, but the fronts still need more grip to replicate the tyre being softer, as at the moment
the improvement in front tyre grip compared to B and C is only minimal.
This tyre is very stable and strong under braking meaning you can brake late with no issues.
Rear stability and traction need to be improved as a softer tyre should produce more grip
on the rear meaning the tyre is better under load mid-corner and produces more grip on
exit. Braking, mid-corner grip/stability and traction is what makes a softer tyre faster.
Compound B (Prime/Hard)
In general, this tyre is really nice to drive. It is more stable on the rear and is more forgiving
compared to Compound A. You are able to lean on the rear tyre more making traction
more controllable and the general balance more stable.
It is slower than Compound A due to front tyre grip and grip under braking, meaning that
you cannot brake as late, but if the braking and front tyres were improved I think it would
be faster than Compound A, this being said, I think that this tyre is the best tyre to use as
the ‘Prime’ tyre. More grip is needed under braking so that the stopping power is grater like
Compound A, but as this is a harder tyre it should not be as good under braking as
Compound A, but it should be close. The front tyres need more grip on entry and midcorner to stop the understeer, but not too much as it it still needs less grip than Compound
A.
Compound C
This tyre is more like compound A with the same grip under braking and a lack of traction
and rear stability. I think in this case, the rear tyres are worse as Compound A has better
traction and rear stability, but the front tyres are the same as Compound B.
Conclusion
So to conclude below are the tyre compounds, which should be used as Prime and Option
and what improvements and characteristics they should have.
‘Option’ (Compound A)
Front tyres
Needs more overall grip to replicate the tyre being softer giving the car better turn in.
Rear tyres
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Should have the same grip as the rear tyres on Compound B as this will improve traction
and stability and generally improve the balance of the car.
‘Prime’ (Compound B)
Front tyres
Need more overall grip to reduce understeer, but to still produce less grip than Compound
A.
Rear tyres
To stay the same but if grip is improved to Compound A, this tyre should produce a little
less grip.
Braking
Needs the same grip and stopping power under braking as Compound A and C.
Lastly I think an addition of tyre wear needs to be introduced with the ‘Option’ tyre being
faster but to not last as long as the ‘Prime’ tyre. This could mean the window of where the
tyre is at its best is only a few laps, where as the ‘Prime’ can last a lot longer with a much
large performance window..
In some cases in real life, depending on the nature of the track and the track surface, the
‘Prime’ tyre is faster than the ‘Option’ with the ‘Option’ being harder to ‘switch on’
meaning that tyre temperature is hard to generate affecting the overall grip level.
Sometimes tyres overheat causing the wear rate to be higher resulting in ‘Graining’ where
the rubber of the tyre stats to wear and crumble causing a ‘drop-off’ in grip as well as
vibrations, all of these could be taken into account and added into the game to make the
Single-Seater cars more realistic.
Overall, the car is great fun to drive and I hope you guys can understand my suggestions
and feedback.
Keep pushing ☺
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Great feedback, as usual. Thanks.
At a given friction level, the braking stability and peak braking capability are a trade-off,
which is what you inferred out of A braking vs B braking. Those two tires have the same
friction model and settings, but B has more carcass flex to absorb and soften the blow of
braking and traction. This adds stability but reduces peak braking potential. Which is
exactly what you observe. This also explains your observation that you'd like A to have
more grip to be an 'option' tire, because as is, even though it bites more like a softer tire
would, it does not really have more effective grip like a softer tire would.
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We still have a few more rounds of A/B/C tire testing coming up before we narrow down
the precise tires. So be prepared for some possible perceived steps backwards, hopefully
mixed in with steps forward, as we evaluate some unexplored directions in the parameter
space of the tires.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is going to be about Build 408 and the changes made to the karts as well as
the ABC tyre testing.
So I see a massive improvement to the Karts, they are quite fun to drive and there is a night
and day difference between this version and the pervious one. I know AJ has been
working really hard on the Karts for the past few weeks, and so whatever I say negative is
purely down to things I think need to be improved and not down to me just ‘kicking’ or
‘disrespecting’ AJ.
Steering
Ok so before I go onto the tyres and what I found with them, the biggest problem I see with
the Kart is the ‘Steering Input’, it is so unrealistic, that it takes away how good the kart
actually handles. The steering in any form of motorsport is one of, if not the most important
thing in terms of what feeling and feedback you get from what the car is doing. Steering
input is so important, that it affects many other things, such as, oversteer, understeer, tyre
wear etc. the amount of steering lock can cost you or gain you for 1 tenth to 1 second in
some cases.
At the moment, the required steering lock and input is so much, that I am basically using
the same about of steering lock as an F1 car would. Karting is all about minimal steering
input, as turning whilst accelerating costs you so much time, so the straighter the wheel is,
the smoother and quicker you are. Yesterday I saw Dmitry’s onboard lap, and the amount
of steering input he uses is just unrealistic, it is not his fault or his driving style, it is the way the
kart and physics of the game are which causes him to use to much steering lock. Dmitry is
really quick in the kart and both him and myself are using an unrealistic amount of steering
lock to be quick. In real life, if I were driving a kart how I was driving it on Project Cars with
the amount of steering input I use, it would not be quick at all. If Dmitry used the same
amount of steering lock in real life, then the whole attitude of the kart would be wrong
where the whole chassis would flex making the kart try and turn on itself. With the way
Dmitry and myself drive the karts, we should not be as quick as we are, whereas we should
be the complete opposite.
AJ posted on the ‘Karts Physics Discussion’ thread saying that the steering input seems
realistic to him, but the kart in real life would act a little more nastier and would not let you
get away with what you get away with in the game. Personally for me, I have never used
that amount of steering lock in my life whilst driving a kart. Sure, I throw it in on entry etc. to
get the front tyres to grip up which requires half steering lock, but I have never gone into a
corner and just turned the wheel past half lock and been quick. I drove at the ERDF
Masters Kart Bercy in 2011 against F1 drivers, DTM, Rally drivers etc. and the key to being
quick was to have the wheel as straight as possible at all times.
In the game, you should only need a minimal amount of steering to turn the kart how you
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want, the general basics of the handling has really improved, it is just the steering that
takes that factor away.
Check this video: Nyck de Vries World No.1 2011, look how little steering input he uses, most
of his time is found on the brakes, the kart isn’t sideways at any point, it is always straight
and his steering wheel hardly turns. Notice when he is warming the tyres up, he ‘flicks’ the
kart sideways and the steering wheel has only moved a little to correct it. (One of my
previous posts shows a video of ‘Kart Sim’ where they have managed to simulate this.)
Early in the video he also uses more lock to get the front tyre to go in better which is what I
was explaining I do as well.
Tyres
So as I said earlier, the changes to the tyres have really improved the realism and handling
of the kart.
Default Compound
I did not really spend too long using this tyre because straight away I could feel it was not
good. It has lots of understeer and basically no grip on entry where the tyres just slide
across the surface of the track, there is no grip on exit either which causes ‘power
oversteer’.
Compound A
This tyre is very much like the Default compound, but there is a little more grip on turn in
but, it is the same on exit and is also unstable under braking. I did not like this tyre really.
Compound B
So this tyre is really nice to drive, there is loads of grip, the front tyres feel like they bite more
and produce more grip which helps the kart to turn and pivot. There is no power oversteer
which is nice, but if the conditions are slippery and it is cold etc., then there should be a
little less traction, but for the heat etc. it is good.
What I like most about the Kart at the moment is the braking, it is short, sharp, and the rear
wheels lock up how they should. The only thing I would say is that the rear locking is quite
unpredictable, so sometimes you brake too much and spin, sometimes you brake perfectly
and the rears lock which turns the kart, or sometimes the rears do not lock at all which just
causes understeer. It is almost like the kart only turns properly if you brake and turn to get it
to pivot which is unrealistic as you can see by the video with Nyck de Vries, you do not
need to ‘throw’ the kart in or lock up the rears to get it to turn.
I feel that with this tyre, it has so much grip that it actually slows the kart down to much
when you turn in. The first corner at Belgian Forest Kart Track is a prime example of the fact
that when you get to mid-corner, the grip causes the revs to drop, slowing the kart down.
Compound C
This is the best tyre for me, it does not have as much grip as Compound B, but there is
enough grip from the front and rear tyres which helps turn in and gives a nice general all
round balance. As there is not as much grip as Compound B, it does not slow the kart
down mid-corner, which makes it the lap flow better. The braking is the same as
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Compound B which is a good thing as this is what I like, but I would ask for the attitude of
the kart to be a bit more predictable under braking, as in real life you know exactly how
the kart will react when you hit the brake pedal. Through hairpins at the moment, the kart
basically dies and when you pick up the power it is almost like you are accelerating from a
‘stand still. Even through hairpins, the kart should still be rolling and not stop. Through highspeed corners, you can feel the kart sliding and griping which is nice and is realistic, but I
think hopping needs to be introduced where the kart starts to hop mid-corner when you
carry speed in.
At the moment, the kart feels like it is not as ‘nimble’ as a kart should be, it doesn’t turn on
a point like it should, so you have to wait a lot before you can pick up the power up like
you are in a car. Karts are meant to be ‘nimble’ and should turn on a point, there is some
feeling that braking and turning is helping this which has improved since the last build, but
there is still an element of laziness which causes you to have to wait which is not how a kart
is.
Just quickly, the kart still revs up from a stand-still which is unrealistic, there is only 1 gear in a
kart unless you’re driving a KZ kart and at the moment there is a ‘Neutral’ and ‘Reverse’
gear which should not be there, as well as the gear shifter on the right hand side.
The sounds of the engine and the tyres need to be improved, as well as the shape and
detail of the steering wheel, but this is just me being picky, once the physics are
completed, we can then focus on the graphics and sounds etc.
So all in all, please do not get me wrong, the kart has made a missive step forward, AJ is
doing a great job, and I am here to help.
Thanks guys,
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Great feedback.
Let me clarify my comment on the other thread though. That amount of steering input
being 'right', as in fast, is not what I meant. I use very little steering input in real life. What I
was saying is that if I did use that much input, on my setups, I'd understeer grossly...which is
what I see him doing too, understeering grossly. The understeer with that steering lock is the
part I was saying is realistic. The problem I was mentioning is I think very similar to what you
are saying in one sense...that much steering input should not be that fast. You include the
scrub explicitly, I only did so implicitly and added in the later corner consequences. edit:
and after a lap or two of that much understeer in real life, the fronts would be roasted, it
would understeer even worse, and would be super slow.
Maybe we do need to up the default steering ratio. I do not have a video, but I'd imagine
a fast lap by Nic or by myself would both show the front tires being very similar, amount of
turn wise, to the de Vries video. The problem seems to be the amount of steering wheel
lock turn to get that. (edit: the kart thread now has a clean lap video, showing exactly this.
The tires look right, but the steering wheel is too far). The other problem is that the simulated
steering geometry is different. We are co-opting a rack in game. In real life you have a very
simple configuration of tie rod going straight from the steering shaft to the spindle arms.
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Handling Consultants Feedback – March 2013
MARCH 2013
Ben Collins:
Tyre Testing in the Formula B – at Imola (Bologna ps the chicane kerbs there are excellent
and kerbing reality in general getting v v good)
A compound
Braking
Full pedal pressure doesn’t create enough bite to lock the front wheels from the beginning,
only managing to lock right at the end of the braking zone (yes ABS was off!). Braking
should be much more aggressive with more dive and there should be enough braking
power to lock the tyres early on. The dive and feedback should be enough to help the
driver ride the threshold. I get that feeling much more in the Formula A
Turn in
This is lacking on these tyres by comparison to the Formula A. There’s not enough bite on
the initial turn
Power
Power delivery initially is ok then as soon as the revs pick up the traction falls off a cliff and
becomes unmanageable. This is especially noticeable over the bumps on the exit of
Piratella – any spike in revs sends the traction wild and the car spins.
General handling
Rear becomes too loose, there’s a lack of overall grip and stability – it feels like a lack of
downforce but clearly the tyre model is creating the environment.
B compound
Braking
Similar issue in braking power but the balance on the brakes creates massive oversteer
towards the end of the braking zone, so this makes a mess of the corner entry phase and
everything that follows.
B feels like a lower grip version of A – the sensation of driving this car on the B compounds
reminds me of the new handling characteristics on the Caterham which started behaving
the same way on the brakes recently. Perhaps there’s a link.
Compounds in real life
Harder compounds often don’t feel much different to the softer tyres. They usually make
the car feel a little like its running on full tanks rather than low in that you lose a little braking
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distance, don’t quite have the crisp turn in, and a little less grip front then rear around the
apex. As a result traction tends to feel the same because you corner a tad slower. Having
spent a lot of time running heavy then low fuel settings I find that the Sim really reflects the
difference between soft / grippy tyres and hard / lower grip rubber quite well. You lose all
those key elements, just slightly, but enough to add a few seconds to your lap time..
Adding weight to your physics model might sound like cheating but it’s extremely accurate
to drive!
Conclusion
So far the best braking trend has been in the 98T – the nose dives, there’s feedback, you
can lock the tyres and when you overstep the limit you get a small front tyre lock up that
delays your corner entry by a few feet. Bang on.
I believe we should dial out this new trend of oversteer on the brakes.
Turn in is best found with the Formula A – and I would still want more!! To be realistic you
should have the power to really crank the car into the apex if you steer aggressively. The
Formula A is nearly perfect in that regards now – the main issue there remaining traction
and drivability but we are close.
The Formula B, which in real life is like the GP2 and runs the same tyres as the F1 (Formula
A), handles in much the same way as the F1 car. You have tremendous braking grip,
pointy steering and great cornering grip – with a really sensitive throttle – the main
difference being the lack of horse-power. Driving wise they are so similar.
I hope this is helpful – as I feel the latest build tyre changes are leading us away from the
pot of gold under the rainbow, and we’ve had a taste of gold with the previous tyre work
on the other F1 cars.
Ben Collins:
Version 420
Imola – my default track
Formula B – default Tyre
From my feel the default tyre is the best in the range (For the Formula B) by far. It has a
reasonable level of grip and as an all round package feels pretty good.
Braking – interesting it has the same issue under braking as with the other tyres – the fronts
won’t lock until right at the end of braking. Recommend more sense of dive and more
braking ‘power’ so we can really feel the car digging under braking
Turn in – the initial turn in is crisp with the default tyre and the driver has the discretion to
point it where he pleases. This is the right direction! The other compounds lost this.
Also – after the turn in the car has a little tolerance if you overdo it, which is good. It
wobbles a little, then settles down and the oversteer is controllable as long as you respond.
More on this below
46
Mid corner (usually medium speed) – this remains my bug-bear. At Tamburello chicane
after you make the sharp left, then turn right and get hard on the gas the traction at
medium speed is put to the test through the right and sometimes into the left.
I find that when oversteer comes there are no warning signs and when it breaks loose, it’s a
showstopper – IE you spin big time.
Solutions? This sim has a healthy amount of resistance at the front end already – a natural
dose of understeer so I do not recommend adding more, or losing turn in. What we need is
some more compliance somehow so that the rear breaks away more gradually. I don’t
know how else to put it!
If we had the compliance and the braking issue sorted I believe the Formula B would be
nigh on perfect.
I find the car really driveable out of low speed corners on the power. If anything I think we
could almost make more of the bumps when you exit across the kerbs, the sensation in car
could be more aggressive so that it rings your bell a little more when you transgress. It
already unsettles the car a tad which is great.
(On a more general point I think the Sim is still unduly harsh for running wide)
Formula A
Very interesting
In the race the car starts off very loose as if its on cold tyres, which is very realistic and I’m
assuming is intentional!
General: The Formula A has definitely changed recently and generally has less traction.
The sense of power this gives you is excellent. The overall feel is v good and you’re driving
by the seat of your pants – it’s realistic.
Turn in – it’s bang on. The car darts towards the apex and you can take as much of it as
you like (but the computer denies you a lap time which is a bit frustrating when you’re
giving the kerbs the bashing they deserve)
Mid corner – a bit saucy but manageable. I would still love a little more compliance if
possible. It does punish you if you go in a bit too fast, as it should, but my gut feeling is that
rear grip is just a fraction too low in the mid corner.
THAT SAID – the driveability is really superb. You can have a slide and deal with it. Yes it will
cost lap time but the car does not enter an unrecoverable spin so thumbs up big time.
Exit / traction. My gut feeling is again that traction is a fraction low. At times it was a bit like
driving on a wet circuit with a high downforce car. I absolutely praise the drivability –
there’s just a sensation of softness at the rear, a sense of roll in the tyre because there’s not
quite enough grip. IE – I suspect we need some softness to improve drivability, but might
need a tad more grip for it to feel like a Formula One car on a dry track.
Conclusion – this car is really, really close! Love it.
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Caterham r500
Graphics
Driving position is better again, although can’t quite see the front wheels which would be
ideal if possible
Audio – engine sounds fantastic, very realistic!
Braking – much better in that the oversteer under braking is much reduced but still there to
some extent. Still would like more feedback under braking and to feel some more bite, and
a bit more grip
General Handling – it feels a bit lazy. The front swings around a little too much and the
steering feels a bit sloppy and very light. The real Caterham feels very planted usually and
there’s none of the roll oversteer that we seem to have at the moment in the Sim.
Normally you can enter the corner a bit too fast, pick up some understeer and then
correct it with some sharp power. We currently have the reverse – it rolls on the way in, then
assuming you survive picks up understeer.
Traction – quite low but admittedly the car is driveable – less manic spins and lots of
firefighting from the lack of grip
Conclusion – good progress, it’s going in the right direction!
98T
The 98T seems to have changed for the worse.
Braking – same problem as the Formula B now in that you can only lock a front wheel at
the end of the braking. There’s less urgency and feedback from the steering
Turn in – is excellent – you can place the car where you want it
Mid corner – its not bad but it now feels similar to the Formula B on default tyre. Previously
the 98T had this very pliable feel to it and you could hussle the apex and if the rear broke
free you could roll with it.
Exit / traction. Traction is quite strange – it has less traction and after you leave a slow
corner and change gear it slides again. There seems to be a surge of power, a bit like the
Formula B on the A compound tyre
Additional – might have this wrong but the gear changes seem shorter..? The power band
seems much higher up the rev band. And the engine has lost some of its growl but I hope
I’m not imagining those things.
Conclusion – not the right direction. I loved this car before and now it feels quite
mysterious. Has a new tyre gone onto the 98T?
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I'm up playing pCars late on my new Laptop, and I just want to say that the grahpics are
fantastic, I have all the graphic settings on maximum, and the detail is great. My last
computer was nowhere near fast enough to run the game to its full potential, but for the
past hour with my new Laptop, I can see that the level of graphics that the game has at
the moment is unreal. I know its going to get even better which is hard to believe, but this
was just a quick note to say good job.
The tyre shapes of the Formula B car are so much better, more crisp, sharp, and I can even
see a single 'blade of grass' which is just awesome.
I loved the graphics when I had my old computer, but now it is just a whole different
experience.
This is not a blog as it is just a quick note, but I feel that the general balance of the Formula
B car has improved a lot. I think it is more forgiving, better traction, more stable, and is a lot
more difficult to find the correct balance which adds to the technicality of setting up one
of these cars in real life. Once I find the right setup, I will push for a lap time, but at the
moment I am just experimenting.
Great job SMS and everyone involved
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is going to be about Build 422, the BMW M3 GT and the Default/A/B/C tyre
testing. I have done all of my testing around Besos GP as I think this is the best track to feel
the balance of the car, as there are so many variations of corners throughout the lap.
Firstly I would like to say that this car has made massive steps forward compared to the last
time I drove it which was when it was first introduced into the game. The all round graphics
of Project Cars are fantastic, and it took me and very powerful laptop to be able to realise
how good they actually are, with the amount of detail that there is. Normally I drive using
the ‘bonnet view’ as I always have done, but I did a few laps using the ‘cockpit view’ and
it is great. The way you see the car moving over the kurbs from inside the car is great, and
the ‘inside helmet‘ view is awesome too with the ‘Look to apex’ as you turn in. I took more
time looking at the finer detail of the graphics; with the smoke coming out of the exhausts
etc, I think it is all fantastic. All of this has made me realise how much I love being apart of
this project, and that I want it to be the best!
Default Compound
I am really impressed with this tyre, it is very well balanced, very forgiving and is just easy to
drive. Compared to how the car used to be, it is night and day difference. I would say that
this tyre has a bit of understeer, which makes the front lazy through high-speed corners, but
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is very stable on the rear and is a very nice, safe tyre to drive on. I am not sure if we are
planning to have an option of different tyre compounds for this car in the game when it is
released, but this to me feels like a ‘Hard’ compound, which is stable, durable and could
go long distance in a race.
Compound A
As I said with the default compound, this tyre is also impressive, the tyre seems to work
better than the default, it is better on entry with more grip, but has less grip mid-corner on
the rear which causes a little slide, which is good as it corrects the understeer that was
present with the default compound, and allows you to use the throttle a little to bring the
rear round. I have seen a few people saying that this tyre is horrible to drive, I originally
found the car very oversteery on power, but have found a good, stable base setup to do
all my testing with. This tyre is still great; I think it goes down to personal preference in the
end.
Compound B
Personally for me, I do not like this tyre, I find it unforgiving and very unstable both on power
and mid-corner. It is very similar to compound A, but has less grip on power at the rear.
When I first drove this tyre, I thought it was the best of the bunch with a lot of grip, but as I
went back through the different tyre compounds, I found that this tyre is very hard to drive
on the limit. If you push on this tyre is seems to bite you. The tyre makes the front more
positive, but with this car, the more positive the front is, the less grip you have on the rear
which causes more rear instability as well as power oversteer on exits.
Compound C
This tyre for me is by far the best. I have found a setup where there is loads of grip, and it
makes the car perfect for a quick lap. There is a fine balance between getting the correct
amount of downforce so that you can carry the speed through high-speed corners, but
not to make it so positive that it causes the rear to break away but instead, allows the rear
to move when you need it to prevent understeer. The general grip that this tyre gives is
really good, it is positive on entry, stable mid-corner, and gives you plenty of traction on the
exit. Carrying in speed is no issue it seems as the balance of the car is very stable. I see this
tyre as the ‘qualifying tyre’ where you can do one flying lap on it, and it produces the grip
needed to get the maximum out of the car.
All 3 tyre compounds are good and very similar, it just goes down to the fine handeling
tuning which brings out the best in the tyres. I go for a tyre that is positive on entry, still
through mid-cor and gives you plenty of traction on the exit. This being said, C is where I
think the car should be, with an option to use tyre a as a hard compound.
All in all, this car has made huge steps forward and is very fun to drive. The best thing about
this car is that it is not easy to drive, setup changes play a key role in the cars performance
and you have to think like a racing driver to make it work.
Thanks guys,
Onwards…..
Nic
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Ben Collins:
BUILD 424
Back on the 98T
BRAKING The braking issue is still there. Giving 100% pedal pressure and there isn’t the same
dynamism & response of the older build.
TURN IN Also it feels like it’s lost some turn-in power. I’d love to be able to hurl it in more
POWER – on power the car is good and stable. Possibly too good for real life coming out of
the slow corners – but what I really appreciate is that you can hold a slide if you make a bit
of an error.
OVERALL – the car feels like it has more grip, but has lost some of its liveliness which I felt
was a real plus. (I note the new Imola lap record) Still a great drive.
Any pointers on new developments greatly appreciated and sounds like another trip in the
R500 is in order!
Noted re the FB testing and i'll keep on with those
Ben Collins:
Cars build 426
Formula B tyre testing - bologna / Imola
Some very interesting results from my perspective
Overall: the braking power seems slightly better on this car but still slightly lacking bite.
Bearing in mind I'm using 100% pedal pressure. As a max setting this should produce a
much more aggressive bite so a mouse could press the pedal and lock a tyre.
Default tyre - honestly I can barely complete a lap without spinning. Very unpredictable once the rear breaks away you're history.
Noticeably bad stability on power out of slow corners as well as fast corners. Less sensitivity
on the brakes. Rear tends to break free under braking into corners. My least favourite tyre
A compound - though it felt like it had less grip I really enjoyed this tyre. The rear is moving
around more but it's more gradual, and therefore predictable.
You can actually slide the car into apexes which is satisfying, and the whole car feels more
compliant. This sim likes being carried into corners on power which you can do with A – this
car also tends to oversteer under braking at high speed when you have any steering on
(which is slightly unnatural for a downforce car but I don't mind it because it's progressive)
Braking feel is good and you feel like you can hussle the car.
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This is my second best choice and closely resembles my favourite tyre - compound C.
B compound - slightly better than default but not much
Either you are gripping with this tyre or having a major moment.
When you break traction in a low speed corner it really spikes and you're lucky to catch it,
it’s especially noticeable exiting the first part of Rivazza and I urge to try it because it’s
you’ve crossed a patch of oil. There’s something there the Sim doesn’t like with this tyre! As
I say this sim likes going into certain corners under power but with B compound it's quite
risky business - as it's prone to spinning.
Oversteer under braking whilst steering is hard to manage - rather like my previous
experience aboard the Caterham
This is my third rank tyre
C compound - love it
Braking is sensitive and exciting with tyres locking controllably - you can brake quite late
and predict what's going on.
When you overcook your entry speed you slide wide rather than spin off - much
appreciated
There's real compliance in the car and the graduation from under steer to over steer is
predictable. When the rear brakes loose you can really control it and drive it on the throttle
and it let's you enter corners on power, on the ragged edge.
This seems the most grippy tyre, with the most excitement and feedback all in one.
Turn in. My hot topic. C compound lets you hurl the car in until it slides a little towards the
apex and you get the feedback - you can also hear the tyre squeal to indicate the limit.
We could still do with even more turn in power to make the steering more sensitive / ditto
to some extent the brakes. Yes you would have to drive more carefully, but with a good
tyre like Compound C it would be manageable, realistic, and above all fun.
C compound definitely a step in the right direction and really fun / accurate to drive !
Great work
So overall A & C were standouts but C really has the best of both worlds in terms of
driveability.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope everyone is well,
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I am back home after my first race weekend in the ETCC, and I thought you guys might like
a quick race report.
So for me, this year was very last minute, I did not confirm I was racing in the ETCC until last
Tuesday which meant that the first time I drove the car was in Fee Practice 1 at Monza. As
my racing career has been going for only 2 years, I have only raced a Clio Cup car, so this
was very different for me, being the first time in a Seat Leon Super Copa and my first
International Race.
Because of my disability, I am unable to just step into a car and drive it, instead I have to
think where I needed the pedals etc to be able to use my legs to their full potential. The
team made a brand new pedal box to compensate for my disability meaning that
everything, the track, the car, the pedals and the championship were new to me.
In first free practice, we were having issues with the brakes, resulting in the front brakes
failing at the end of the pit straight, meaning that all of the brake was to the rear wheels
causing them to lock up under braking and spitting me off into the wall. This was a failure
that was caused by the modifications made to the pedals which was all fixed and sorted
for the rest of the weekend.
Qualifying was tough, it was forecasted to rain half way through which meant that you
had to get your lap time in early before the rain came. This is obviously hard for me, as I
had only had an hour in the car before, so finding the limit of the car in your first 3 laps
comes down to experience and is not easy when you are new to the car. I was unable to
do a decent flying lap before the rain started, so I ended up qualifying P20 and 7th in my
class.
Warm-up was on Sunday morning and was wet, I did 5 laps which was just learning the car
in the wet as this was the first time I drove it in these conditions. I finished 8th overall out of
the whole field which was positive for the race.
The championship is separated into 3 Classes, the S2000, the Single Make Trophy which is
the Seat Leon Super Copa (which I am driving) and the S1600 Class. The S2000 class is the
fastest, but people said before Monza that the Super Copa would be able to keep up with
them as they are faster down the straight. Anyway, I found that the S2000 Class was full of
BMW's which were very fast and actually quicker down the straight than the Super Copa. It
is very hard to beat the S2000 cars overall as they have softer tyre compounds etc, so you
have to just race the people in your class, as I have found the the championship standings
are separated into your class and not overall.
Race 1 came and I started P20, I knew from Warm-Up that the S2000 cars struggle more in
really wet conditions compared to the Super Copa as they struggle for traction out of
corners, this put all of us on more of a level playing field. The conditions were terrible and
visibility was Zero, so I planned to just have a decent first race and bring the car home. I
managed to pass 9 people and finished P11 overall and 6th in my class. This meant that I
started 11th for Race 2 and was able to make my way to 7th overall, and 6th in my class.
Overall, it was a strong first weekend for me considering I had never driven the car or the
track before Friday and having an 11th and a 7th out of 33 cars is pretty good. The next
race is in Slovakia which will be hard to beat the S2000 cars, but this does not matter as it is
all about where I finish in my class. So I could be 15th overall, but 3rd in my class if you
understand what I mean.
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Anyway, thank you all for the support. I have had to send my Thrustmaster Add-on Wheel
back as I have played Pcars so much that I have worn out the Button I use to accelerate.
As soon as the new one arrives, I will do some testing around Monza, as I think I can give
some detailed feedback on how the track actually is in real life and we can work on
making the track in the game more accurate
Until then, keep pushing J
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Handling Consultants Feedback – April 2013
APRIL 2013
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope everyone is well, sorry I have not done a blog post in a while, I have not had access
to a Steering Wheel for the past couple of weeks. Anyway, I am at my brothers place and
managed to find a Logitech G25.
So this post is going to be about Build 440 and Monza (Milan GP), as now I have driven this
track in real life, I then drove the track on Pcars and have noticed small details of the
circuit have been missed out which, if added accurately will make a big difference and a
big improvement.
As well as having access to a steering wheel out here, I also have access to Lewis, so we
have both been driving really slowly around the circuit on the game, and have been
picking out the small details at each corner. The main 2 details we saw that are not
prominent enough are 'Camber in the corner' and 'Curb profile'.
Turn 1
The first part of the chicane needs more profile on the curb so that it is steeper and affects
the car more when you use it. The second part of the chicane is fine. Between the first part
and the second part of the chicane, there is a small grandstand opposite which has been
missed. The run-off on entry to the first chicane also needs cones and barriers which drivers
have to 'slalom' through if they make a mistake and go straight on so they do not gain
time.
Next, the right kink before Turn 3 & 4 needs more camber in the corner and a steeper curb,
as in real life when you approach it, it is steeper and tighter than you think. When you go
through it, you feel like you are in the camber, whereas at the moment on the game, the
corner is too flat.
Turns 3 & 4
it is very easy to out-brake yourself into turn 3, so a lot of drivers cut the chicane completely
when this happens. To make sure that you do not gain an advantage by cutting the
chicane, the FIA put in a yellow lane which you had to follow which went accross the run
off all the way to the tyre wall and then you rejoin the circuit on the inside and exit of turn
4, if you did not obey these rules and just cut the chicane without going inside the yellow
lane, then you would get a penalty. This should be introduced to the game as this is
realistic.
Lesmo 1
The entry to this corner is not tight enough and there is not enough camber meaning that,
as you approach it the corner is really flat, whereas in real life, the apex of the corner and
curb seem really low down and you have to get into the camber of the corner as it helps
pull you through it. The curb needs more profile and needs to be steeper. The shadow over
the corner also needs to be wider as this is quite a dark corner, and most of the track is
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covered in shade.
Lesmo 2
Lesmo 2 is very much like Lesmo 1, the corner needs to be tighter on entry, a lot more
cambered and also the curb needs to be higher and steeper with the green section on
the inside needing to be flatter. When you go through Lesmo 1 and 2, both corners are
tighter than you think and have quite a lot of camber with quite high curbs.
The exit of Lesmo 2 in real life is almost completely covered by trees which is not the case in
the game. There is a little bit of sun light coming through in real life, but nowhere near as
much as there is in the game at the moment. Just as you exit Lesmo 2, there is a
grandstand missing on the right hand side. The straight leading up to the next corner is not
completely flat in real life, there is a high point on the tarmac in the middle, which then
slopes off either side from that point. This creates a little bit of camber in the tiny left kink
that is on the straight.
Ascari
This corner on entry is fine, the curb needs to be steeper and have more of a profile to it.
The right afterwards, needs to have a vibrating curb which you can really feel when you
use it and also needs to be steeper so that it affects the car more when used. The left
afterwards needs a steeper curb which also affects the car more when used, in real life,
this curb pushes you wider if you take too much of it.
Parabolica
The same with most of the other corners, this corner needs to have a lot more camber with
a steeper curb. You should feel like you are in the camber when you go through this
corner.
Just some tiny improvements that i think will make a massive difference when driving the
track. The foundation of the track is very good, it is now just the small, finer details that
need to be added.
Good job guys,
Onwards.....
Nic
Ben Collins:
Version 439 – Bologna
Formula B, Formula A, Renault 98T
Been away for a week so it was interesting climbing back into the Sim with a fresh
perspective – its hard keeping up with all the change..!
Formula B – on the default tyre
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Love it.
Graphics – the seating position is great because you feel low and connected, and can see
individual tyres locking.
Feedback – awesome. I don’t know if I imagined it but convinced myself I could feel
something through the brake pedal when I locked a wheel. The steering feedback is 100%
in tune with what the car is doing (*NB a feature that has tragically died in my other 2
favourite cars – see below)
Braking – previously this was my complaint because the brakes lacked bite and stopping
power. On standard setting the car stops well and you can lock individual front tyres – it’s
an improvement for sure and the balance is really good.
I became greedy and wound the brake bias further back IE more brake on the rear tyres,
and then loved the way it stopped in a straightline, with a few lifelike twitches from the
rear. I could brake later & better and it reduced the slightly frustrating understeer I had on
turn in after heavy braking. My only dislike was that the Sim showed me this effect under
braking at higher speeds by giving me oversteer under braking and turning into Villeneuve
Esses – in real life the downforce would make the rear more stable than this so you should
only really sense ‘rear tyre lock up’ at the lower speeds under heavy, heavy braking – right
at the end of the braking zone. I hope that makes sense – I kept spinning as a result of this
under braking to the mid corner.
Turn in – not much different, would still like a little more power especially at some of the
faster corners.
Traction – great job. Had some ridiculous slides and saved it but lost the occasions I didn’t
deserve. The car is driveable. It can still be a little bit of a monster at times but this Formula
B car is very balanced.
Formula A
Allow me to dry my tears.. I used to love this car..
Graphics – something has changed and the seating position makes you feel disconnected
and the front wheels feel like they are miles away. It’s driving from the roof and really
freaked me out. Anyone feel the same?!
Feedback – there seems to be a delay with the feedback, almost like driving a boat. Again
I found it very confusing to drive and just couldn’t connect with the car – the steering felt
very sloppy and nothing like the older versions (I’m going back to 420 the last time I liked it,
version 387 being my favourite experience)
Traction – you have grip and then with no warning you lose all of it. The engine sound is
quite lazy, as if the revs are slowly peaking with wheelspin, but the handling effect is super
dramatic and you go into an uncontrollable spin straight away.
I’m Quite gutted because the older version was like a better, faster and more driveable
version of the Formula B. Would love to know what has changed
98T..
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The 98T changed for the worse at around version 420 for my feel and now feels like its
moved further away again. From my record it was working best around build 377.
There’s a sense of disconnect I have with the Formula A now in that the car wanders quite
lazily when you steer it and has lost the urgency and controllability that it first had. I don’t
mean to come across like a brat here – but the early version was just superb to drive so I
can’t understand where this one is going.
CONCLUSION:
I realise there are other cars to focus on but I’m keen to hang onto at least one or two
beautifully balanced machines that we can refer to as ‘perfect’ in order to draw
comparisons, hence my focus on these 3. Just concerned that cars like the 98T and
Formula A might be slipping away because they were almost perfect and with a little fine
tuning made for superb benchmark comparisons.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey Guys,
I have a lot to catch up on it seems, so here is just a quick post about A/B Tire Compound
testing I did at Monterey with the Racer L4-RS on Build 444.
For me, this is a real easy one to pick the differences between tires, as it is all about the
amount of grip they are producing in a number of different ways, this is from, braking,
entry, mid-corner, high-speed, exit/traction.
I have done a lot of laps around this track in the past, so it didn't take me long to get use to
the track again. When I last drove at Monterey in the L4, I got to a 1:19 second lap (I think).
I first tried Compound A and only got to a 1:27, I was not sure whether the time was just
really slow compared to how it use to be, or Casey and SMS haved slowed the lap times
down with this car. Anyway, I then did a couple of laps with Compound B and immediately
found myself doing a 1:23, I reckon there is another second in the time still to come, but I
will not get into the 19's like I use to.
Compound A
So the biggest difference I found between both tires, was the amount of understeer
Compound A had. Every time you turned in, you could feel the front tyres scrubbing and
struggling to find grip which was causing a lot of understeer. The good thing about the FBB
is that when the tires were scrubbing, you could feel it all through the steering wheel and
the FB was reacting accurately giving you the same feel that you get when the front tyres
scrub in real life.
So because Compound A does not have enough overall grip, the understeer causes a lot
of problems in mid-corner and high speed. The traction out of the corner is not an issue as
to me it does not effect the traction or the rear stability. The main issue is just understeer as
well as grip under braking.
Compound B
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This tire for me is really good, it transformed the car completely when I did a back to back
test between the 2 compounds. There is a lot of grip under braking meaning that you can
brake a lot later than with Compound A. As well as braking later, you can carry a lot more
mid-corner speed as the grip is really good. There is not a hint of understeer in high-speed
corners, only a tiny bit in the middle of low speed, but this is not an issue.
It is by far the better tire, and feels like the car use to be a couple of months back but the
overall time is slower.
I would say that this tire is really good for qualifying, but overall produces a bit too much
grip making it a bit too easy to drive. I think there is too much traction and a tiny bit too
much grip all round.
More to come. :D
Just quickly, now I know that Compound A is meant to be a Street Tyre, I think that it needs
to have a little less grip on the front and a lot less traction out of the corner, because now I
see it as a road tyre, I think it gives too much grip to the L4 that is really powerful, and road
tyres when you are trying to drive them fast are terrible. The traction from A to B feels the
same, so this needs to be changed, but the scrubbing feeling from the front is good, I
reckon there needs to be a tiny bit more if this is meant to be a street tyre.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey Guys,
So this post is going to be about the Formula B tyre testing I did around Sakkito in Build 444.
So, I know AJ said he was not looking for lap time and told us not to look into them too
much, but I cannot help myself. Being a racing driver, I find that pushing for a lap time is
when you learn what the car is doing as you are trying to find the limit. I have not been
doing lap time comparisons with the A,B and C compounds, but I have tried to get a time
out of them as it helps me understand what the tyre is doing and what I want from it, if it is
not giving me what I want.
Default Compound
In terms of general balance, this tyre is good, it feels like a very durable race tyre which
you can do long runs on. The main problem is the amount of understeer that it produces
on entry and in mid-corner, but the traction and rear stability is nice.
When I tested this tyre I had already driven Compound A, so there is a massive difference
in terms of the grip that it produces., but If the understeer from the fronts was cured with
some more camber like Compound A, then this would be a good ‘prime’ (Hard) tyre for
this car as the rear stability is good with progressive slides.
Compound A
This tyre is by far the best tyre in terms of balance and grip. You can really feel the Camber
from the car with this tyre as when you turn in and carry the speed, the tyre brings the front
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of the car to the apex, which is really nice. The overall grip from this tyre is what makes the
car fun to drive, as there is a good amount of grip, but also it is still quite difficult to control
mid-corner and exit.
As AJ said he is not looking for pace, and instead is looking for behaviour, as well as this
tyre being the fastest, it also gives you great feedback from what the car is doing. It is very
easy to reach the limit of the tyre, which helps you understand what the car needs or what
you need to change to go faster. This is realistic in comparison to the Pirelli’s in F1 at the
moment as the drivers that can understand the tyres the best are usually the smartest. One
thing we need to add is tyre wear and degradation physics wise and graphics wise.
The kerbs are a massive issue at the moment as they are reacting like they would if you
were on slick tyres in the rain, one slight touch and they send you off. Even if you use them
on the exit you get plenty of wheel spin. We have had plenty of these problems in the past,
so I am sure this is just part of the test. I am not feeling any FFB over kerbs at the moment, I
am not sure if it is that my FBB Tweaker is not working correctly or not.
Compound B
So my testing with this tyre is all down to behaviour which is what AJ is expecting. There is
no point trying to get a time out of this tyre as it is pretty much impossible to compete with
Compound A. So the biggest thing I noticed was the behaviour over the kerbs was
completely different and more realistic compared to Compound A and the Default
Compound. The kerb offers a lot of grip, which is nice, but the feedback I get when I go
across or over them is not very realistic. They do not seem to have much presence when
you use them, by this I mean, when you use a kerb in real life, you feel it big time,
depending on the nature of the kerb, you feel, vibration, smooth ripples, rough and short
ripples, or a big jolt through the wheel when you hit big high kerbs. There can be many
different variations of kerbs throughout the lap, which give you different feedback both,
through the steering wheel and by the way it makes the car react. At the moment, I do not
feel any variation between different kerbs, as it seems the same all the way through, but
with very little feedback. It seems that the grass gives you more feedback through the
wheel than the kerbs do at the moment.
Balance wise, the car feels quite nice, there is not as much traction on the exit of corners
as there is with the Default Compound or Compound A, but the behaviour of the front
tyres is very similar to the Default Compound. I still think there is too much understeer from
this tyre, but I know that the focus is mainly on the reaction over kerbs etc. so this has
defiantly made a difference.
Compound C
This tyre is pretty much the same as Compound B, if anything I would say it is a little bit
better grip wise, with more front-end grip mid- corner. I think there is also a little bit more
feedback from the kerbs with this tyre, but still not really enough to give you a really good
realistic feel.
Overall, I love trying out all of these different tyre compounds and analysing the feel of
each one. I think the Default, B, and C Compounds are very similar and are a great base
and foundation to work from if we are thinking of having a good durable ‘prime’ (hard)
tyre. I would suggest having the traction form the Default and A Compounds added to
either of the B and C Compounds as this will help with making the tyre feel durable, stable
and consistent.
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Good progress ☺
Andrew Weber:
Per usual, great feedback.
I do have an extra question, since you did start to pick up on something specific I was
looking for. You say C has a bit more feedback from the kerbs than B. Do you recall if that
was when hitting the kerbs light, hard, or both? (yes, the differences I am looking for are
/that/ subtle). That level of subtlety is not necessarily critical for a final product, but it does
matter in deciding how to do some underlying things.
This camber exploit issue (what A has in it) needs some more exploration. Clearly, modelwise, the exploit is wrong. However, the effect it has, and how much both the professional
drivers, some amateur drivers, and some simmers, like some of the dynamic feel, hints at a
direction to investigate to get a similar effect a 'right' way. Like I said in another thread, it is
still on the table that that is simply overall grip or balance differences, but the kerb
feedback in particular further hints that there is more to it than that.
Nicolas Hamilton:
In answer to your question AJ, I would say both, when you used the kerbs on the exit of a
corner, you could feel the vibrations a little more than B, and also when you go into the last
chicane at Sakkito, you can feel more of a jolt over the high kerbs, so both of these types
of kerbs give you feedback, but both of these feelings are very subtle, there is not much of
a difference between B and C, but I am very good at picking out fine detail, so I was able
to notice a difference.
Overall I would say that the feedback in general needs to be perfected more, I think there
needs to be more feedback from track nature, e.g. kerbs and bumps, camber as if i could
feel more over kerbs and bumps then it would be great, but what I did feel was the wheel
tugging if you look up which is what Ben mentioned a while ago and that really is nice.
Andrew Weber:
Bingo. That is good news and exactly what I was hoping to hear. Because B does have an
advancement in Fz (load) handling. It is no longer a single simple spring/damper. That is
the only difference between B and C.
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Handling Consultants Feedback – May 2013
MAY 2013
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So I am back and this post is going to be about Build 458 and the Formula B ABC Tyre
Testing, which I did at Sakitto GP. This circuit is where I tested the old tyres 2 weeks ago, so I
wanted to get a back-to-back test at the same circuit to see the difference in behaviour
from the old tyres to the new ones.
Force Feedback
The main difference I noticed between this tyre and the old one was the amount of FFB
there is which is really nice. You can feel the front tyres gripping up and biting into the
surface of the track to get the car to stop which is just one of the effects. There is a lot more
feedback through the wheel in general, especially over the curbs with the FFB changing in
strength etc. depending on the type of curb you hit, which is what I said was lacking in my
last post about the Formula B car.
There are just the finer details, which I think are missing at the moment. The first one is that
there is good FFB through high-speed when you are taking a corner flat, but as soon as you
hit the brakes and turn in, the FFB goes really weak giving the feeling that when you turn,
the front wheels have been lifted off the floor. Through any corner that requires you to
brake before, makes the wheel go light when you turn, but then the strength comes back
as soon as you pick the power up. From my experience, the wheel weight and feedback
feels the same all the way through the corner in real life, unless you go offline etc. This then
brings me onto my next point that, the FFB of the curbs are really good, but the fine details
of using a curb on the exit and running onto astro-turf needs to be added, as this changes
the feedback through the wheel when the front tyres lose grip on this type of surface.
Things such as flat-spots, marbles and dirt offline all need to be added for more accuracy.
So as I have mentioned the FFB being the main difference I have noticed with these tyres, I
have just focussed on the balance and behaviour of each compound.
Default Compound
This tyre is very slow as it has a lot of understeer, so much in fact that the front tyres are
always scrubbing when you go through a corner. There is a decent amount of traction on
exit, but the understeer and the laziness from the front tyre just kills the lap time and general
balance of the car completely as with know front end grip, the rear will not want to move,
making the understeer worse.
Compound A
This tyre is very similar to the default compound, there is not much grip from the front tyres,
but has a little bit more than the Default Compound. The FFB is the same than the Default
Compound, which is good as this shows consistency, but there is very little you can do with
this tyre due to the lack of grip it produces on the front. Regarding traction and rear
stability, there is no difference and still provides a good level of grip, the front tyres are the
biggest issue.
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Compound B
This tyre is really good, there is a lot more grip from the front, which makes driving the car a
lot easier and allows you to place it where you want. You are able to brake later than
Compound A and the Default, which is down to the grip that the tyre produces. In terms of
traction, there is no difference, but if I was being picky (Which I am) I would say that there
needs to be more rear traction out of the corner as this seems more of an issue than with
the old tyre with the best compound (if you understand what I mean.)
Compound C
This tyre feels really nice, it is not the quickest, but it feels the most stable out of all of them.
It is very forgiving and consistent and does not give you the need to really push them.
Sometimes you can over drive soft tyres or new tyres as you think that they need to be
pushed hard in order to get the time out of them, but this is not always the correct way. This
is what I feel with this tyre, it is a tyre that I would use as a Hard tyre for long runs. Maybe a
little more traction is needed, but all in all it is really good.
Overview
There seems to be a trend with these tyre tests, where there are two compounds which are
slow and lack a lot of grip on entry and mid corner, but are very similar in total, in this case
these are the Default and A Compounds, and then two tyre compounds which, one feels
like a good soft tyre, meaning that you can push hard on it and the grip is there and is the
faster tyre,(B) and one which feels like a good, durable, hard tyre which does not produce
as much grip on a flying lap, but feels good and has a good balance in which you can use
for long runs in the race etc. (C)
I am not fully sure on what AJ is trying to get out of this test, whether he is looking for one
tyre, which is fast and has a good feel over one flying lap, or a tyre which has a good
overall balance which is consistent and allows you to go long distance. Either way, I think
he has done a great job in improving the feel of the tyres over the curbs etc. all is left now
is the finer details.
After we are sure what tyres we are going to use, we need to add tyre wear, the feeling
you get from new tyres e.g. having to get the shine off the tyre before you start pushing
them, the feeling of the new tyre giving you a more positive front end, effecting the way
you turn the wheel etc. etc. Tyre degradation needs to noticeable both graphically and
physically. There are many aspects that need to be looked into in order to really feel what
a tyre does and feels like in real life. Tyres are so important and the feeling you get from
them can mean the difference between 1st and last place!
I have a lot of ideas on which I would like to see in terms of the feelings you get from the
tyres and what causes them feelings, as soon as we choose the best tyres to work with, I will
put these ideas forward.
All in all, there has been a great improvement with the feeling that you get through the
wheel with this car and tyres, it feels like you are driving it more!
Good progress…..
Nic
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Andrew Weber:
As usual great feedback. I am always impressed by how some of the more subtle things
you pick up on correlate with what is going on in the test.
What I am trying to get out of each test varies. But what it is not, yet, is the whittling down
to a 'best tire', in the same way as refining a setup. I am still more in the range of verifying
that some underlying tech does what I think it does, or is a good direction to go. In other
words, we are not yet dialing and refining our options. Rather, we are exploring what our
options even are and what precisely they do on track.
For example, in this test, what you happened to verify was that the flash heating part of
FlashTread does what I thought it would at the basic level, that the falloff on it is better than
the 'just dial down the grip' falloff of the past, and that the bite of using more realistic
parameters for slicks rubber combined with a softer carcass works. One of the more subtle
things you verified is that adhesive grip is indeed necessary to combine with deformation
grip. So those are more legos in the bin to assemble our final FB tire with later. But these tire
themselves are not really candidates on the path to the final FB tire.
And sometimes things are not verified, but are rather discovered or revealed. For example,
in this test, your comments combined with some others, has revealed to me a possible
underlying cause of the probably unrealistic form of LSS. (Some LSS is realistic, but there is
some that seems not to be) (even though you do not comment directly on LSS, trying to
put some of what you say, about B in particular, into offline tire tests has revealed the clue)
Nicolas Hamilton:
This is where I think you are very clever and I admire your expertise. To me, I just drive on
feeling and just give feedback on what I feel and what is different to the time before.
Whilst I drive I have flashes of ideas on how I would improve it etc. I am not very good with
the Technical parts of what creates the tyre to work how it does, so there are some things
you talk about which I don't understand (I would love to learn though as this could make
my feedback more directed and accurate to what you want.) I am just good at analysing
how the car feels and how it should feel, as well as noticing all of the other fine details.
I have wanted to be apart of developing a game like this since I was about 7 years old. I
always use to analyse games inside out to how it actually should be in real life, so this is why
I am very picky, but do not know the technical parts.
I think you are going about this tyre development in the perfect way. Every time you make
a change, I learn something too. As you said, I don't think we are at the 'Best Tyre' stage as
of yet, as I still feel there needs to be more facts of behaviour in the tyre. By this I mean, at
the moment it is easy to just drive and turn the wheel with no characteristics of the tyre
changing. Maybe a better way for me and you to work is, if you tell me what you have
changed and what you are looking for, I can drive and analyse exactly how it feels in
comparison to the changes, this way, I can work on the main factors you are looking for in
the tyre and direct my feedback to suit your programme.
Andrew Weber:
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We'll get there, but for now we have another demon to watch out for...the placebo effect.
When I am trying to verify if something even does anything at all, or does something in
particular, it is better if the testers have no idea what that is. Because maybe it does
something subtle and unexpected, or nothing. Either of which we might miss if there are
expectations, and the placebo effect kicks in.
However, later in development I expect we will be staging each test with more
communication and focus, because we'll have more knowns, and a firmer foundation, so
we'll want to be more efficient at what we're dialing.
To put this back on example, if we were staging each test more, I might have missed the
LSS clue I may have just found (still not sure how that one will pan out), since all eyes would
have been towards whatever we thought we were focusing on (probably kerb and
around-center behaviors in this particular test).
Nicolas Hamilton:
So I have had a few ideas which are really small and fine, but it is the smaller details which i
notice and feel need to be in the game if it is meant to be a simulation game (which it is).
So firstly is the gravel. In real life, gravel is there to slow you down once you go off, some
are deeper than others, but the majority of them are deep enough that you cant get out
of them once you hit them. The only way is by keeping your speed up and driving through
it.
Gravel is a 'killer' for your car, it gets everywhere and sometimes does more damage to the
car then if you had just 'nudged' the wall instead. So the whole point of a simulation game
is to make it as realistic as possible. At the moment, the gravel effects do nothing different
to the grass when you hit them. There should be a distinct difference between the two.
Both grass and gravel react differently in wet conditions, so this is something we also need
to look into, as we do not want the same in all conditions as this is unrealistic.
So in terms of sound, when you go off into the gravel, it is quite loud and you know you
have hit the gravel trap because of how the car sometimes just 'digs' into the stones and
gets stuck, this is where the term 'beached' comes from as it just lifts the wheels off the floor
and the bottom of the car just sinks in. The biggest thing you notice once you leave the
gravel is how much is left in the car, so inside the bumpers etc. It takes a good 2 or 3 laps
for the gravel to fall out and clear, so before that happens, you hear gravel just moving
around from side to side when you go through corners. It is like having a bag of gravel
emptied into the boot of your road car and it is just moving around everywhere. So these
sounds need to be added to the game to add this affect to the gravel. When the gravel
starts falling out throughout the lap, it starts falling out onto the tyres and the racing line
etc, so this sometimes causes a change in grip level when you turn in.
This is just my idea that i think should be added in, so the sound of the gravel in the car and
falling out onto the circuit, the change in grip level sometimes as the gravel falls out. This
should be noticeable with the graphics so you can see the stones falling from the car onto
the track, and lastly the affect of the gravel when you hit it should be increased, so can
get 'beached' etc.
Obviously some gamers want to just play the game and not get punished for their mistakes
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if they go off, for me, if you want it to be realistic, then getting punished when you make a
mistake and go off where you may be out of the race is what is needed. As in real life it
punishes you a lot, and that is what makes the difference between the real world and the
virtual world of motorsport. Either way, there could be the option to turn off the realistic
effects of the gravel for the gamers who just want to have fun without taking it seriously.
Lastly, dust and dirt being carried back onto the track from other people going off should
be added as this is a very important thing. One lap, you may have plenty of grip through a
corner, but the next lap a driver who has gone off could have brought a load of dirt onto
the circuit which changes the grip levels completely, this can even happen when you are
following a car closely from behind. When they are pushing, they may drop a wheel in the
dirt and drag it back onto the circuit, which then affects you who is behind them.
Just a few ideas
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope you are all well,
I just arrived back from Austria as it was the 3rd round of the ETCC last weekend. I ended
up finishing 10th in Race 1 and 9th in Race 2. I was second fastest overall, which is very
positive considering it was only my 3rd time driving the car. I personally think I could of
finished in the Top 6, but was taken out at turn 1 which meant I had to come from 20th to
9th.
Anyway, back to Pcars.....when is the new brake wear and engine wear feature coming
into the game? I have read in the 'physics releases' thread that Casey is loving this new
feature, and to me it seems like it is going to be awesome. I plan to try this out and give
you guys my thoughts. Is it already in Build 475 or is this coming in this Friday's build.
Thanks guys.
Casey Ringley:
Brake wear is working already with build 476, but only tuned for the M3 GT4; not a great
example as it's built for endurance racing. I'll try it on the Formula A next as that's one
where you could realistically ruin the brakes over a single fuel stint if abused by driving style
and setup.
Engine wear is a similar situation; in and working but only really tuned for the M3 GT4. It's not
affecting power as I'd like yet, though. Need to work up a simple plan with Steve for
getting that enabled again.
Ah, that reminds me. I wanted to test out our clutch wear system as well to see what
improvements it needs, if any.
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Ben Collins:
May 21 Feedback PCARS
Version 475
Apologies for the break in proceedings – after a major PC then chair malfunction I have
finally recovered operations!
It’s been a while and I’m delighted with some of the progress. As usual I’ve focused on the
3 cars that seem to be / or have in the past led the charge in terms of best handling.
Track: Imola
Formula A
Steering – starting with this because the car will now go wherever you point it, a significant
upgrade in terms of realism. It’s fantastic to see the car darting towards the apex more
and to be able to wrangle it over the kerbs. 9/10
Kerbs / cutting corners – feel this is about spot on. Occasional penalties seem harsh but
there’s been a big improvement in drivability now that the sim allows you to bash the kerbs
and take your chances in the air.
Realism feels very good at the tight Imola chicane where the car goes airborn if you’re
greedy, it slows you down without any artifical spinning. That’s bang on and it’s a case of
really threading the needle there. 10/10
Graphics / Cockpit view – graphics are stunning as always. You can see and feel the
locking wheels which is just superb
After a ride in the Formula B I have to say I slightly prefer the view in the cockpit. You sit
further forward and feel more engaged in the action than the Formula A view that takes in
a more long lens view of things.
*notice this a few of the other cars too – realise this is partly to establish what you’re driving
but I just prefer being on top of the wheel.
Braking – wow. The Formula A has more grip under braking now it seems and the braking
zones are busy. I think it’s bang on. The initial bite is perfect and quickly you’re into juggling
the locking tyres. All the pressure issues of yester versions are GONE. 10/10
Grip level - I wonder if we have almost too much grip at times in some of the fast corners as
you sweep into a braking area. I love it but certainly we shouldn’t have any more corner
speed at places like: entry to Villeneuve Chicane (it’s nearly flat in 6th!) and entry to Acque
Mineral (again almost flat in 6th!)
Sliding – at higher speeds I appreciate the improvement in drivability. (which is notably
lacking in other models, see below). You can get sideways, have a hairy moment, and
without automatically going into an artificial spin. V good.
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Traction – despite the above.. on power traction can be pretty tricky. I feel we are a
fraction low on traction grip in the mid range out of 2nd gear corners in particular. At the
exit of Variante Alta, a little at Rivazza (in 3rd) and exit of Tosa – you get major wheelspin
and it’s as if you ran over a wet section of track. I can’t explain it further.
This is the best balanced car we have.
Formula B
Cockpit – as above the cockpit view is great in this car
Handling – whoa. This car has turned quite evil. Whereas the Formula A will step out at the
rear slightly if you’re heavy handed, the Formula B now just rotates if you’re a fraction over
the top with entry speed. It’s totally unforgiving and I don’t understand where this trait
came from because the last version I tried was close to the mark.
Evil entry oversteer as well as traction – multiple fatalities this end.
Renault 98T
This is like the Formula B but worse. Sorry to be a broken record but the older version, I felt,
was amazing so I don’t know what’s happened to the 98T.
Steering / feel – the original had plenty of movement which was great. For some reason
the current version rolls around and there’s false feedback through the steering wheel
which was there last time I drove as well (but not in the older version).
Grip – the overall grip has dropped out of this car making it really evil in the corners.
Traction – there’s a massive power surge in the mid range which I’m sure in some replicates
the old school Turbo. Due to the lack of grip in the tyres I find the surge uncontrollable.
Please bring back the old version, I beg you! It had more cornering grip, more neutral
balance, plenty of movement and fantastic steering feel.
Pagani Zonda
The engine sound is very accurate, loving that.
The seating position in the cockpit felt slightly high, like you’re above the wheel almost
looking down on it, rather than through and over the top.
The general ride felt pretty good – there’s some movement as you speed along, perhaps a
little too much body roll in the corners.
Braking – I felt it could do with a little more braking grip. The Zonda actually stops extremely
quickly and the Sim felt very heavy and reluctant to stop.
Traction – actually felt pretty good and thanks to the engine notes you have a great feel of
where the throttle is leading you.
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Ben Collins:
Build 476
“RACING IN THE RAIN”
Formula B – Tyre Comparisons /
“Default” / “Formula B” – the default compound felt very similar to the ‘Formula B’
compound – is it the same or very slightly different?
It’s pretty hairy and unforgiving as per my previous post but then I realized something. I’ve
been dipping in and out of the ‘Wet Race’ modes and the graphics are absolutely
stunning. The only thing is that the car is way too good and it’s no different really to driving
in the dry, it just feels like a tad less overall grip.
I really think that these slightly quirky compounds here have a role in simulating racing in
the wet. They really force you to be smooth and are problematic. There’s more we could
do in terms of realism that would clinch the deal on wet racing as highlighted below – but I
feel that PROJECT CARS has the potential to destroy all competition with the wet racing
mode. Here’s how I would like it function:
1. Reduced grip and stability as per Test A (Below)
2. Puddles – the graphics are amazing at displaying puddles and these should gather in
parts of the straight, forcing the driver to find a way around them, of suffer the effects of
aquaplane
3. Aquaplane – the sound effect can help with this, along with the steering feedback (that
horrible pull you feel before it goes light), and chronic wheelspin with some unstable
oversteer if you try to force it. All of which this game has when you get it wrong and could
work seamlessly in the wet
4. Kerbs – in wet mode I drove all over the painted kerbs and never paid the price.
Anything with paint should react with a sudden and serious loss of grip. Especially
somewhere like SPA where there’s plenty of high speed / high load corners that run you
out to the painted stuff. And Spa always has puddles in the rain!
“Test A” – once I adapted to the concept that I was driving on a wet track, I started to
enjoy driving on this compound.
As per real life, if you turn too sharply the rear starts sliding on corner entry. The whole car is
unstable and prone to locking under braking – but things settle down once you pick up
some speed in the straights again.
Traction was poor but predictable and it almost feels like you are hitting puddles, because
one characteristic in all these low grip compounds is that when the rear breaks away its
fairly sudden.
This was my favourite “wet weather” compound – it goes without saying not my
preference for a dry car!
Test A (Front)
A is pretty quirky and it feels like the front and rear of the car are disconnected. You have
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less feel from the front end and I disliked the lack of braking grip.
B Compound – awesome.
So this was the only setting that felt like dry running and I loved it.
The only minor improvement I would suggest is the turn in – would be great to feel the car
dart towards the apex on the initial steer.
It would also be amazing if the traction could soften up the initial slide when you apply the
power. Basically the car resists a fraction too much at the front end on corner entry, then
has a fraction too much breakaway from the rear when you first get on it and you have
those deeply regrettable spins out of low speed corners, that feel a tad uncontrollable.
That said if I spent a long time in this mode I would learn to love it and it’s very close. The
braking grip is ideal and it’s a great job.
C Compound
Somebody sprayed oil everywhere!
Curious to hear everyone else’s thoughts on this subject. Personally I love racing in the rain
and it is the greatest challenge a racing driver gets handed. The unpredictability, the gains
if you’re brave in the aquaplane, the losses if you make a tiny mistake, the lack of visibility
and acute precision and smoothness required to pull it all together.
It rained in Macau once and I thought Christmas had come early. Can’t wait to hit the
streets with the Formula B when it comes out
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I am not sure what your thoughts are on how the Kart is at the moment, but it is really
frustrating me. I think it is really far off at the moment, in terms of general chassis behaviour
and feel etc. To me it still feels like you are trying to drive a 'tank' it just doest react like a
kart does in real life. I think that the Kart is the most important class in Project Cars, it is
where racing starts (not for everyone) but for most people. There are a lot of people who
are waiting for a good kart simulator, as there is nothing out there at the moment which is
decent, and so this is our chance to make one which is linked with all of the fantastic cars
in the rest of the game. Pcars is looking very strong at the moment, the graphics and
details are incredible and WMD and SMS are doing a fantastic job in creating this game in
the way that they have. Obviously we still have work to do in fine tuning all of the cars, but
they have a great foundation.
The kart on the other hand, I feel needs a lot of work doing to it. I am not trying to be out of
order by disrespecting the work that AJ and everyone has done already on the kart, I am
just very passionate about this game and when I agreed to work with SMS, I was told to be
honest. Near enough every car that you drive on Pcars at the moment, you feel like you
are literally driving it, the cockpit views are very realistic and the cars feel realistic. The main
thing with Pcars is that you have 'drive' the car properly which is what a simulation game is
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all about, by this I mean, there are a lot of games which are so unrealistic and literally drive
the car for you and all you need to do is press a few buttons and turn the wheel, whereas
with Pcars, you have to work.
The kart doesn't feel the same as the rest of the cars do in the game at the moment, it
doesn't react like a kart should and the finer details of graphics and kart features etc. are
not as top level as other cars.
I am not meaning to sound blunt, the realism of Pcars so far is so good, that I don't want
the karts to let it all down. I know there are so many karters out there that would buy Pcars
just for the realism of the karts, and the way I see it is that, karts are so unique and difficult
to get right, that if you cant get close to how they feel, then you should take them out of
the game completley as there are people out there that would just 'slate' the karts if they
are not close to real life.
I am fully dedicated to change the kart and to develop it to the same realism level that
the other cars have in the game at the moment. AJ has all of the fantastic brains,
experience and expertise to make this happen and myself, Ben and the rest of WMD are
here to help.
I am not sure if the karts are at the top of the list to sort, as I know there are so many other
things that are being worked on at the moment, but it would be fantastic to have a
realistic kart model to work with.
Ian Bell:
Blunt is what we want Nic.
The guys will give the kart some focus.
Andrew Weber:
The current kart is really just a the chassis exposed to setup in a way to allow for "designing"
the chassis itself. The first step right now is to dial the "suspension" settings that are open. This
emulates, very roughly, chassis design itself (welding different bars of different sizes in
different configurations)....IOW, it does not emulate what you'd do at a track (torsion bars,
hubs, axles, etc). The first trick to this is going to be to get the jacking "close enough". The
kart changes a LOT right now dialing those open setup parameters. See if there is a good
ballpark in there somewhere. If not, we have to unwind even further and readdress the
chassis approximation (topology) we are using right now.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Is there anything I can do to help you with this process AJ? Obviously you are very busy
with other aspects of the game, the karts are very important, but so are other things like
tyre models, fine details like flat spotting, aquaplaning etc etc.
If there is anything else i can do besides just playing the game and giving you my thoughts,
then please let me know. I am willing to get as deep as possible into this project.
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Andrew Weber:
Aggressively dial the suspension settings in the kart setup and see where that gets you.
Do so without any expectations of cause and effect. Just see where noodling around
leads you.
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Handling Consultants Feedback – June 2013
JUNE 2013
Ben Collins:
Whoa - a whole new world has opened up for me.. Here goes on the NASCAR
CARS FEEDBACK
Version 485
NASCAR – Delaware & Concord
Intro: My first outing on an oval with the NASCAR. Mostly using Delaware – it revealed some
major points.
General
The main issue I can see with the NASCAR sim, from which possibly everything else currently
derives, is the nature of the power delivery. With any oval car the rear axle is effectively
pointed towards the inside of the corner and the differential is set up so that when you
accelerate the car wants to turn left because the increase in load accentuates it.
Even In the lower Formulas where you can’t toe the wheels to the left (ie point them using
the adjustable suspension settings)– the effect of the offset diff is enough to make the car
pull left when you accelerate, and pull right whenever you lift off the gas.
For that reason you always left foot brake on an oval to keep the differential loaded with
quite a lot of throttle – it keeps the rear end stable for one, and more importantly it keeps
the driven wheels driving the car towards the apex. When you try that with the sim you can
still feel the power delivery pushing the rear wide into over steer.
At low speed in the sim when you accelerate the rear pulls to the outside, ie towards the
wall and in the opposite direction to the natural inclination of a real Nascar. Of course if
you accelerate harshly then you deserve some oversteer but this feels different, and exists
all the way through the corner – even at high speed and when you accelerate away from
a turn the oversteer feels uncontrollable
It might sound strange but power gives you grip on an oval and i wonder if there’s a way
to mimmick the power delivery of the real NASCAR onto the sim to help this rear instability.
And by that I mean a dynamic change rather than just adding understeer!
Front end
The visuals give you a great sense of bumps and when you left foot brake there’s a slight
sense of loading, but not that much.
I think there should be much more steering feedback, loading and bumping when you turn
in and carry speed through the apex on the groove. When a NASCAR ‘hooks’ up, you
really feel the front end dig in and the whole car bites down. That sense of bite indicates
almost precisely when you might start to lose grip.
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IE – you get to a certain level of load and can feel this in the weight of the steering.
Beyond that level of steering if you continue to push and increase speed, the car will either
gently start to understeer, or you will visually start to see / feel rotation – meaning oversteer.
That coupled with the steering going light.
So I feel that a major secret in giving the driver of the Sim feedback would be to really
accentuate the feedback – (in the way that PCARS did so successfully with the Formula A
under braking and locking up) – so that you can feel the build up of grip as the steering
gets heavier, up to the point the front breaks away, or up to the point where the steering
lightens and you get oversteer.
That might sound a tad ‘arcade-like’ – but it’s true to life.
1. Can we engineer the rear end so that the driven wheels are pointing the car more into
the corner?
2. Can we increase and play with the steering feedback to give the driver more control
and feel? Oddly enough I think this part is even more important than point 1
We can get into drafting later perhaps! Probably not a priority this week.
Ben Collins:
CARS FEEDBACK - June 7
Le Mans & Formula A Feedback
Version 488
Formula A – default tyre
Le Mans
The track is fantastic! For some reason the Le Mans circuit brings out some of the best
features of PCARS and I feel it will be a big draw. I noticed a few things on my way around,
I realise its early days on the circuit design but hope these are helpful comments
Track
This video is a helpful reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIAIA9u1WbE
I’ve ignored all the features like trees etc that will no doubt be on the move.
T1 Dunlop Chicane – felt that going into the left hander the real track rises just a little more
than what you feel in the sim but other than that excellent – especially the camber fall off
on the exit.
Off line – I noticed a Ghost car using all the road outside of the white line – this would
probably be penalized but my main point is that the offline sections of track are dirty and
have less grip than the actual track. This really matters later on the Mulsanne straight
regards the red tarmac sections. Currently you can drive on these and its smoother and
faster to do so. In real life the red sections are both dirty and bumpy, they are a different
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grade of tarmac and tend to make the car understeer and bounce more unpredictably. It
would be great to re-enforce this in the Sim
Regarding the sim ‘run wide’ penalties – these are too harsh for Le Mans because there are
occasions you go kerb hopping especially on the Mulsanne chicanes.
Turn 2 – Esses. Nice job. There’s a fantastic flow here – my gut feeling tells me the Sim is a
fraction generous in the amount of space you have through the left / right (the second
part not the drop down the hill) and reality might be a bit tighter.
Steering feedback - What I loved at this corner was the feedback through the steering
when the car loaded up, just before it understeered. The steering went heavy – this is
something we should exaggerate because the car still lacks feel in my view and this would
really help to unlock the potential.
Kerbs – at this point I have to mention that the kerbs are too unsettling. It feels like when
you drive over a kerb that one wheel spins (even in practically a straight line if you drive
over a kerb like the one at the end of the start finish straight before turn one – you can hear
wheelspin). Kerbs don’t cause wheelspin like that at these speeds although you might get
a rough ride (our sim is too smooth) you can run them. The only reason not to hammer the
hell out of them at Le Mans is because over 24 hours it kills the car.
Tetre Rouge – is fantastic. It reminds me so much of being there because its fast, ballsy and
goes by in a blur. Understeer going in, oversteer coming out and so close to the wall.
My only observation here is that the French put in what we call ‘Baguettes’ – these yellow
sausage shaped lumps of concrete – were missing on the corner exit on the left hand side.
If you drive over them hard you can break the suspension, driveshaft etc. You can get
away with it a few times but yikes they hurt and you really feel it thumping the car. The true
reaction is peaking revs as you light up across them.
Mulsanne straight – there’s some great bumps written into the sim a little after you join the
straight. What is missing is the crown in the middle of the road. There are two grooves in the
tarmac and as you cross from one lane into the other the car will bottom out and pull as
you cross them. These grooves fill with water when it rains. Think they are worth having
along with the two bigger bumps on the straight just after you exit Tetre Rouge
First chicane – so life like. You bury the brake pedal, release pressure to rush into the corner
and then brake again. The handling here is very true but the apex and exit kerbs could be
more bumpy. NB this is where the red tarmac needs to have a different grip or effect
somehow. It’s not off limits but you just don’t want to be there unless you have to.
Second chicane – ditto.
Mulsanne corner – all good.
First kink on the straight – possibly accentuate the rise and fall in the kink?
Indianapolis – need those braking markers! But its great
Arnage – geography is great. There’s a change in the road surface here and you cross a
seam in the tarmac. The grip level changes with it, slighty for the worse, and road
undulates every so slightly, pulling at the car and punishing a lock up. Perhaps we could
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feel a little more of the gentle bumping here as that happens.
Porsche curves
Turn 1 Entry feels good
T2 – also good
T3 – its hard to see on the in car camera, but it feels like the track tightens and drops a
fraction more than you make out on the sim.
Into T4 – feels a bit too grippy here and the car feels a bit numb. More steering feel would
help
T5 – the final left – don’t feel the track quite rise enough on the sim. This corner enduces
understeer as the tarmac rises and then falls away, so you have to wait slightly longer for
the throttle than you expect.
Final corners – excellent. Listen to McNish talking about the kerbs here – ‘Hit, Hit’
Formula A
In general very good but I still feel the rear is too twitchy and unstable in the following ways
1. Touch a kerb and you’re history. It wheelspins regardless of the circumstance and at
high speed you can expect and un-recoverable spin. Be great to change that
2. Rear feels soft – realise this is probably to allow driveability. Is there any way that the rear
can skip slightly more aggressively in small twitching movements rather than letting go with
one single big & hard to recover slide? It’s hard to drive the car on the throttle in the
current config
3. There’s not enough lateral grip in the slide. Still would love to have more grip from the
tyre when the rear brakes loose in order to help drive the car on the throttle and to
balance it into more of a settled drift on corner exit.
Generally there’s just not enough rear grip for traction and the back end responds the
same at low or high speed.
My only other request of the Formula A would be more steering feedback – as much as
possible, and linked to the amount of load on the front end as it digs into the corner. There
are signs of this working and it’s extremely exciting!
Ben Collins:
Build 490 - June 10th
Just been on the Formula B and it seems to be undriveable now
A few builds back it seemed to be in an experimental phase where it felt like it was driving
in the rain. Now when you press the brake pedal it is like driving on ice. Some time ago the
FB had a great balance so i dont understand the path we are on with this car / tyre
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The Formula A has a few little things we could improve and the side force / grip is certainly
one of them, but overall it is far superior than the new tyres for the FB and i hope i'm not
offending anybody's hard work as i'm sure you have a longer term game plan regarding
the physics. I would however strongly suggest that we preserve an original strand in the FA
tyre as a benchmark, because do occasionally lose good characteristics forever it seems
once they are dialled out. Is that possible?
I adjusted the sensitivity settings and even knocked back the pressure but the FB is far too
aggressive and seems to have lost its grip under braking. The FA has just the right amount
of pressure requirement coupled with the ability to unlock the wheels - in real life you get
on the anchors hard and the FA resembles this very well, giving good feedback all the
way. On the FB there’s no chance of recovering a lock up. Also it has a very wayward rear
end now
Yikes - i'm sorry to be negative but i would hate to see us lose the amazing progress on the
FA..
Nicolas Hamilton:
Just done a few laps around Spa with the Formula A to see where the car is at the
moment, I have to say that it is really good fun to drive, the graphics are awesome both
the car and the track, with sunlight and shadows etc are really crisp!
I can see/hear a big change in the engine sounds which are getting closer to RL but I
know this is a work in progress, for me it is a lot more 'rough' sounding, like you can really
hear the exhausts etc. Idle is really high and needs lowering which I am sure you all know
and when you are listening from trackside cam, I think the engine note as the car is
coming towards you is a little too high from different camera angles, but really good and
accurate at others. One thing with the engine which I think affects most cars in the game,
is the sounds when the car passes you and then goes into the distance, the engine note
goes from high to really low, so low that its not realistic and still happens with the FA at the
moment.
Just a quick thought, would it be good to add the sound of the wind hitting the camera
whilst it films the cars etc, so on a windy day whilst viewing the replay, you can hear the
wind hitting the camera and the camera moving. Rain drops on the lens etc i think needs
to be added for realism. At the moment it seems that the game struggles to run smoothly in
Stormy conditions, but the graphics are amazing. When is development for wet physics
starting? There are many small features in which I would like to add for the realism of Wet
conditions when we come round to starting them.
Small features such as locking up smoke needs to be more accurate, at the moment, there
is smoke once you come to a halt having locked all four wheels, but there is no smoke
when locking just one wheel before turing into a corner. Sometimes in RL you can see
smoke when a driver locks up coming from the bottom and leaving tyre marks etc, but
sometimes you can also see the smoke carry on around the tyre once the drivers comes
off the brake and rolls the car into the corner. This would show more accuracy in the
locking up feature if this was added (graphics wise). Sparks caused by 'bottoming' should
be present (graphics wise) also as this would add to the realism of a camera filming the car
passing with sparks and movement of the wings and components going on through the
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corner etc.
Where are we in terms of animations? Driving in the pit-lane etc stoping at your team,
being pushed back into the garage, are you able to which on track action from your TV
screen whilst in the garage? Animations I think is really important as this shows Real life and
gives the atmosphere of the world of motorsport.
Just a quick post with some feedback, my findings, questions and ideas.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So as some of you know, I took a trip to Slightly Mad Studios in London yesterday to adopt
a more hands on approach with this project. I have put forward a lot of different ideas on
small/finer details that should be present in the game with stuff like Atmosphere in garages
and different animations etc etc. I went through track details and wet conditions etc,
Shadows, kerbs and trees were all discussed for developing. Pretty much 90% of the ideas I
had were already in motion or had already been put on the list for development which is
really nice. The new Flash Tread is coming along really well and with a few more finer
tweaks, it will be great.
I have put my ideas and feelings across about the karts going through how the chassis is
now, how it reacts and what needs changing. We all agreed that we need to completely
re-design the karts and start from scratch, this time using a proper kart chassis with the
potential of licensing a kart manufacturer to get the best accuracy. So I am hoping that
soon, there will be a completely different kart for us all to try, not just physics wise, but also
graphics wise with different features of how a real kart should look like.
So the main issue I found when driving the cars yesterday, was the reaction time between
turning the steering wheel and the actual wheels of the car turning, with the new Flash
Tread I feel that it has opened up a window for warming up tyres by weaving and throwing
the car around (which is what you do in RL) but at the moment, because the reaction time
from the steering wheel to the wheels of the car is quite slow, you are unable to 'chuck' the
car around, catching slides etc. When warming up tyres, you should feel the tyre working
as you throw it around, you should feel a slide and grip sensation, so the tyre slides and
then grips when you put the tyre under load. This sliding and griping sensation becomes
more difficult as the tyres start to warm up which tells you that the tyres are warming up
correctly. So as the tyres start to warm up, you should work even harder to get the tyres to
slide to maintain the heat. All of this is done on a formation lap before you line up on the
grid for the start of a race, this is the cold tyre faze. To make this come to life in the game,
we need to make the reaction time between the Steering wheel and actual wheels of the
car quicker, this will give you more overall feeling of the car.
I will be getting involved in this Project as much as I can to help SMS finish the great job that
they are already doing. There are a lot of great things to look forward to!
Nic
Ben Collins:
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Nice one Nic!
I think your input on the Karts will make a big difference and in a way they should be nearly
as exciting to drive as the Formula Cars.
Just had the best time in the new Formula A config and i think it's truly special. A real
breakthrough. Looking forward to catching up with you in this final dash to the flag and
ironing out the complete package!
Stay speedy!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Cheers Ben,
It is all coming together nicely, SMS are really working hard and doing a great job. Would
be cool to meet with you sometime and go through bits and pieces together, maybe we
can meet at SMS offices sometime and have a blast together. We could then give both of
our thoughts and feedback and help push this awesome sim forward to a level of
insaneness!
If in doubt....flat out!!
Ben Collins:
Version 499
For me, today is the best day yet on the PCARS Sim!
So Casey has worked up a new slick – he calls it the GreenFlash.. It’s bloody epic.
I ran through the GT’s In this order. The new tyre is currently on as a Default though I suspect
Casey has moved it on as per my comments.
Mercedes SLS
General: wicked engine notes and that A pillar is exactly where I remember it! Super job on
the detail of the rumbling motor. The body roll and bounce is superb and mirrors the
nuances of kerb hopping, braking, sliding – it’s all there.
Balance: what I love about this new tyre is the throttle control. It’s amazing. Finally there is a
way to crack the throttle open and get the car to just start taking a set. It registers like a
little step, a tiny skip, and is uber-realistic.
Beyond that if you push too hard then it bites you – but equally the car is recoverable! We
have driveability. It does exactly what it should – you run wide, take in some real estate
and have a fighting chance of pulling it off so long as you don’t hit the wall. It’s PERFECT.
Braking: in a straight line the balance and feedback is AMAZING. The car bobs about and
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communicates how much grip it has through the locking tyres (front and squirming rear) all
the while in concert with steering feedback.
Slight negative: Where it gets interesting is when you combine braking AND steering, or if
there’s any curvature in the track. If you stay on the brakes on turn in, the rear really skids
and it is over the top. I quite like a little help on the turn in by using the brake but not this
much. When you go over a crest and press the brake whilst steering, brace for impact
because the car will rotate big time (e.g. the fast kink towards Rivazza at Imola / Bologna)
If you can fix that last comment – please lock the software down right there, light a Cuban
cigar and relax because the car will be perfect from where I’m sitting. Seriously awesome.
BMW Z4 GT3
Again – great acoustics and I like driving this even more than the Merc, which is fair
enough because it’s a better car in real life too. The grip level felt absolutely right for GT3.
The fantastic throttle control is also evident in this car, love it.
Braking: I had the same issues under braking so I tried a 75% ratio towards the front on the
braking bias. (I should point out that I’m on the standard pressure and it is working
perfectly).
Changing the brake bias did calm down some of the propensity for over/steer on turn in
with the brake, but the trend was still there in the background. So basically I lost out on
braking performance, couldn’t slow down efficiently and still had oversteer as I braked into
the apex.
This confirmed to me that the trend of combined steer PLUS brake is a fault with this tyre.
But like I said, it’s damn near perfect in every other way!
BMW M3 GT4
I have to say, a bit of a pig.
The front tyres felt like wooden blocks, with no braking grip at the front end with which to
stop, and no front grip once in the corner.
The car’s body language, throttle control and the sound again felt superb, but my
impression was that this car had some extreme experimental kind of front tyre that made it
very tricky to drive. Basically i think Casey was making sure i was awake.
FORMULA A
Holy shit, this is real.
Starting with the sound again because the development team have upped the ante and
given the Formula A the most orchestral “wa-ppppaaaaa” on the gearchange. I found
myself making unnecessary shifts just to listen to it.
Throttle control
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The Formula A is wild, of that there is no doubt. You need a strong cup of coffee to have
enough wits to hold onto this bronco and a delicate right foot. The way the car balances
on throttle is incredible. From the initial touch, the first transition into slight o/steer, into more
of a drift as you bounce kerbs and nail it through medium speed corners. A major
breakthrough and exactly what I wanted to see in the FA! Outstanding.
Equally good is the feedback from the brakes.
My gut feeling is that Casey has thrown some of GreenFlash at the Formula A because the
throttle sensitivity feels very similar to the GT cars. Also, like them, there is an anomaly on
corner entry although slightly different with the FA.
Braking & Entering
For some reason at the end of the braking area in the FA, everything feels fine and then it
locks the rear tyres and I spin, even when braking in a relatively straight line. If this tendency
to rotate could be replaced by a little sideways kick or a squirm then I wouldn’t mind but
the current state is OTT.
It also spins me off on the way into certain low speed corners (especially Rivazza 2 and the
Variante Alta chicane) and I cannot figure out why it does this. I began to wonder if there
was a tyre heating element involved because you get those “hard to feel the reason why
you spun” spins on cold slicks, but it was doing it several laps in. I didn’t notice as much
instability on turn in to faster corners.
As with the GT cars – this feels like a small anomaly in an otherwise perfect machine. All it
needs is some more stability and predictability at low speed under heavy braking, and on
turn in to slower corners.
Of all the cars I was only left slightly confused by what was making the anomaly in the
Formula A tick, so I hope my feedback makes sense to Casey. Who deserves a knighthood
as far as I’m concerned, the game/sim/life is on a whole new level now. It’s almost time to
light a Cuban. Ian ..?
Ben Collins:
Please excuse the vocab on the last post, i'm just very excited about this turn of events and
it's brilliant to see how this project has created something so good. I'm really blown away
by the realism. I hope everyone else enjoys it too.
Casey Ringley:
Great to hear this, Ben. I know what you mean by the brake+steer instability and will work
more at that aspect in the next revision. No GreenFlash magic at all working it's way into
the Formula A, but it's good you feel there is. We had some very good behavior with that
old tire the FA uses (the one you like so much on the Lotus 98T) so if we it feels like we're
getting some of that back while also reducing the corner-case badness, then that's very
good news.
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FYI, we light Arturo Fuentes around here. J
Doug Arnao:
I would check the brake heating for a change in brake balance as you are entering the
corners. The front vs rear balance can change enough to to spin you around near the end
of the braking zone of if you are trailing the brake entering the corner. If the rears heat up
more rapidly than the fronts this can happen (reaching its peak sooner).
Nicolas Hamilton:
Ok guys so this post is going to be based on Build 502, Casey’s new GT Tyres and what I
found when testing them. Already I see Ben has posted some great feedback of what he
found with different cars, so to work together with him, I have focussed on a which car he
did not test and have written about the heating fazes with this car and the general
balance.
BMW M3 GT
First of all, the sounds on this car are great, I have noticed a massive improvement on the
details within the sound, especially when shifting.
For me there are 2 main aspects in which I think we need to nail with all slick tyres. The first
main aspect is the heating faze and the second aspect is how the tyres feel when at
optimum temperature.
Heating Faze
At the moment it is hard to simulate the cold tyre faze as in both Time Trial and Practice
modes, the temperatures start at optimum, but I have been turning the car off and waiting
for the temperatures to decrease before I try and heat them up again. What I have found
in this test is that trying to heat the tyres up at ‘Formation Lap’ pace works quite well, but
the decrease in temperature when not weaving or sometimes whilst weaving happens too
quickly, by this I mean that you have to work very hard to warm the tyres up at Formation
lap pace which is accurate and the same as real life, but as soon as you come to a halt,
stop weaving or during weaving, the tyres lose 5ºC almost immediately which is not the
case in real life, if you were losing temperature whilst weaving and then losing a load when
at stand still for a couple of seconds, then weaving would just be a waste of time.
In my experience, once tyre temperature is at optimum, you are able to come into the pits
for a couple of minutes, head back out on track and push from the start with near enough
the same amount of grip, meaning that temperature loss is not as high as in the game at
the moment, (this all depends on air temperature and conditions, which is what also needs
to be taken into account for the game.) At the current rate of temperature decrease, the
tyres would be pretty much cold within 2 minutes, so I would advise to slow down the rate
of temperature decrease a little bit to make this more accurate.
I have also noticed 2 minor features in which one needs to be added and one needs to
be improved. The first feature that needs to be added, is making the heat from the brakes
add to the overall temperature of the tyres, by this I mean, to help with tyre temperature,
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when drivers are heating the brakes before a race or throughout the weekend the heat
from the brakes heat the wheel/rim which then makes the tyre temperatures increase. At
the moment, the ‘Dash’ is showing that the brake temperatures are increasing after and
during braking, but this does not affect the overall temperature in the tyres, this needs to
be added and is an easy fix (I think ☺)
The second minor feature is the HUD Display, which I believe Andy Tudor updated a couple
of weeks ago. (Great job) I have noticed that the information given by the HUD Display
regarding brake and tyre temperatures does not match up with the readings on the
‘Dash’/’Motec’
The next part of the heating faze I noticed, was that there is no change in grip level from
tyres that are Cold or at Optimum temperature. this meant that regardless of what
temperature the tyres were at, I was still able to attack corners at racing speed with no
issues. As you all know, this should not be the case and is where we need to make the
physics of the tyre and grip levels it produces match the readings of the temperature
gages. At the moment, pushing on cold tyres is no issue and the temperatures do not seem
to rise as fast as they should, as after doing 5 corners at race speed, I actually lost
temperature. This shows that the temperature shown on the gages, to the temperature
that should have been gained after a few corners, to the grip the tyres actually produce is
quite far out.
The reason why I am basing the feeling and temperatures from a ‘Formation Lap’ point of
view is because this is the most important part of a race, as it is the preparation faze and
during this faze, you should feel the temperature of the tyres coming up as you go through
the lap. At the moment, there is not sliding and griping feeling from the car in terms of
feeling or car behaviour and is something that needs to be taken into again for this game,
but is going to take time to master.
Balance
So regarding the general balance of this car, I feel that it is really nice to drive and very
enjoyable, but it almost reminds me of the BTM days where there was so much grip, that it
took the realism away. At the moment the grip is so high that I am able to run 0 rear wing
at Belgian Forest and still encounter understeer. It brings me back to when I spoke about
the BMW Z4 months ago by saying that running 0 rear wing and getting away with it was
just unrealistic.
This for me puts us in a situation, which is sort of like being between a rock and a hard
place…. Do you want a car that is really nice and forgiving to drive and is very consistent
with the feeling it gives you, or do you want a car that is more realistic and in that case
more difficult to drive. I chose the second option, which is what this game is all about, but I
do not want to lose the great balance and feeling that this car already has. So the main
issues I feel that are causing the unrealism, is the high levels of traction and general rear
end grip. The grip levels are still so high on the rear that even with the rear set as loose as
possible, you can get away with it. This all results in mid corner understeer and makes the
general balance feel even more unrealistic. One more slight issue is the lack of grip at
Belgian Forest when going over the kerbs and onto the run off areas, when using the run
off, the tyres just wheel spin and act like they are on a wet surface which should not be the
case. Obviously these areas should have less grip as there will be dirt and pick-up from
cars, but should never be as slippery as it currently is.
What I have noticed with simulation games in the past is that they always feel like a game,
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what I mean is that the cars feel and handle in such a way that, once you get the hang of
how the game feels and reacts when you do different things, you become dialled into
how the game is and not how the car actually would feel in real life. This then means that if
you are good at one racing game, you can be pretty good at all racing games. What the
difference between games and real life is that the feeling of the car changes all the time
from lap to lap, corner to corner which is what is needed to make this game stand out, at
the moment, because the tyres are so forgiving and predictable, you get the feeling you
are driving a game and not the real car, obviously you will never feel like you are driving
the real thing, but we need to get as close as possible, which is why myself and Ben are
here to help ☺
What I would advise is to create a tyre that produces a good, realistic level of grip at
optimum temperature that changes all of the time, changing due to conditions, the way
the driver is driving, whether they are saving their tyres or pushing by driving either smooth
or more aggressively, either way the car should always be changing which is caused by
many different factors. In terms of this car, we need to reduce the grip level on the rear,
but keep the same feeling on the front with the tyre susceptible to change over a race
distance etc.
One more small detail I noticed, was that even when the engine is turned off, the FFB still
reacts like the car is still at idle (vibrating at stand still.)
It would also be great if we could add an animation of the driver ‘flicking’ the ignition
switch and pushing the start button when starting the engine, so the ignition and start
button, which are both available in the options menu control the drivers correct actions.
The procedure should be reversed when switching off the engine (only flicking the ignition
off)
Thanks guys ☺
Great progress!
Casey Ringley:
Really good notes, Nic. This and Ben's feedback will be very useful in working up the next
revision.
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Handling Consultants Feedback – July 2013
JULY 2013
Nicolas Hamilton:
This post is going to be based on Build 507 and the new Formula B Tyres, which I tested at
Eifelwald GP.
In general I have been struggling with the overall balance of the car, with a lot of snap
oversteer mid corner. This to me feels like a sliding and gripping effect, which feels like a 2
faze process. On initial turn in, the car feels nice and planted with a decent balance, but
as the car gets to mid corner, the rear steps out but only to a certain point where the car
then grips up.
This oversteer happens with the same amount of steering lock applied throughout the
corner and gives the impression that the rear of the car has a mind of its own. With all this
being said, I tried to develop a decent base setup to minimise the mid corner oversteer as
much as possible and then used the same setup for all of the different tyre compounds.
Default (Formula B)
This tyre feels very decent to me, it produces a number of different grip variations which
gives you the basic feelings of car movement, oversteer, understeer etc. but is not over the
top in grip level changes which gives you an all round good and decent balance. There is
good initial entry grip with a bit of understeer mid corner, which gives the feeling of running
on a hard compound tyre. There is just enough traction on exit, but there is a little bit of
power oversteer which is not too aggressive meaning that the car is not too unstable as
the grip is still there making the slides and changes in car balance controllable.
There is no grip or feedback over kerbs, only just the slightest of vibrations, which needs to
be changed with the effect of rippled kerbs etc. At the moment, the sounds of the rippled
kerbs give the affect that the kerbs are really rough and ‘rippley’ (I don’t think that is a
word…but it is now ☺) but the Feedback through the wheel does not complement that at
all.
I have noticed a big difference between this tyre test and the last tyre test with the FFB
under braking, there is a good tug on the wheel when locking up etc and the bumps are
very noticeable.
Overall this tyre is not bad at all and I think it is a great base tyre.
Compound A
This tyre is quite interesting, there is a lot less overall grip than the default compound and
does not really have that ‘in the middle’ balance. What I mean by that is, with the default
compound, there is different variations in grip levels giving you understeer at one end of
the scale and oversteer on the other, but with a decent overall balance in the middle
meaning that you can drive the car comfortably and consistently, whereas with this tyre,
there is either a large amount of understeer, or a large amount of oversteer with lack of
traction on exit. The good aspect of this tyre was having to change to a smoother driving
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style to compensate for the quick changes in balance from understeer to power oversteer
or mid corner oversteer, which to me made driving the car feel more realistic as with the
Default Compound you were able to be unrealistically aggressive.
There is no change in FFB levels with this tyre, if anything I would say that there is less
Feedback under braking and over bumps.
Overall, if I were to have these tyres on my car in Real Life, there would be no hope, but I
think that it has shown that different tyre behaviours cause different driving styles which I
think is important and should have a fine balance on the grip levels produced and the
driving style needed to drive the car properly and realistically, you do not want a tyre that
is so grippy that it allows you to get away with unrealistic actions like in TOCA Race Driver
3!!
Compound B
This tyre is very much like Compound A but with a lot of oversteer on entry, but if driven
correctly the front end is very positive meaning you can turn in later and carry more speed
through the corner, but it is very marginal as the car will snap if you are too aggressive.
Having to be smooth to compensate for the changes in balance is the same with this tyre
and is a positive as I explained in the paragraph about Compound A. FFB is very weak
overall but very good under braking into turn 1, there is more feedback with this tyre than
Compound A in this respect but kerbs and grass wise, there is no difference
Compound C
This tyre out of the 4 is the best in terms of the grip it produces. There is good amount of grip
all round giving a good overall balance allowing you to brake later and deeper into
corners whilst getting on the power earlier with better traction. The most noticeable
difference is mid corner which if you are patient, the tyre comes to you generating better
turn in and bringing you closer to the apex.
This tyre feels like a one lap qualifying tyre, as it feels soft, grippy and is faster than all the
rest. It does not cause you to develop an unrealistic driving style and allows you to push in
the areas which you were not able to push in before and still bites you if you are over
aggressive.
There is no change in FFB, I am not sure if this is because I am not running a FFB Tweaker or
not? But regardless there needs to be more grip on kerbs as well as more FFB over kerbs
giving you accurate feeling over different shaped/natured kerbs.
Overall, the best tyres in my opinion is the Default (Formula B) acting as the Harder
Compound and Compound C acting as the Softer Compound, but the FFB all round over
kerbs needs to be improved as well as the grip produced when using kerbs.
Good job AJ, the car is still great to drive regardless of the tyre compound and I think that
the different behaviors and reactions outline the detail in the differences of tyre
compounds in the game, which is very good and I have not seen this type of detail in any
current Racing Simulation game on the market.
Nic
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Ben Collins:
Project Cars – 7 July 2013 – Version 510
Here is my latest report for #Projectcars as it is now known on twitter – it’s great to see a
real following out there now and I think the anticipation for the launch is more than
justified. The graphics and the drive are breaking new ground. If only our tyre model could
have found a home at Silverstone last weekend…
This is feedback from a preliminary run on Version 510 – my plan is to run a baseline on all
the cars in one 24-hour hit once I’ve discussed with Casey the most useful time to do this.
In the background to the “drive” / tyre model – I’m still keen to push several topics that I
believe with give this Sim a unique grip.
1. Realism in the rain (per a previous post)
2. Ultimate feel, feedback & keeping with the real cars
Another point of interest came up in a discussion I was having with a team I used to drive
for – they have been researching the possibility of overlapping a live race with a virtual Sim.
I can think of no better format than PCARS for this! Just a thought, what do you reckon?
Formula A
Default Tyre.
From what I could tell this was the same tyre as the one marked ‘Formula A’.
The car has picked up a super aggressive oversteer on turn in and corner entry. It feels very
heavy-handed and difficult to anticipate, making me feel I can’t trust the rear at both low
and high speed.
Previously I only had trouble when combining braking with corner entry but with this new
trait I find there is now way to drive around the problem. Having learned that the handling
tends to ebb and flow I feel more relaxed about this but I would mark this characteristic as
a real negative.
Besides the turn in oversteer there is also some snap oversteer on power – the tail
occasionally breaks free very quickly.
Braking felt excellent and the general balance of grip in the corner also felt bang on – so
I’m not sure where this instability on turn in and on power has come from.
Late 70’s Slick.
To me this felt similar in the turn in o/steer problem but the traction issue was much worse. In
general it seemed to have less grip and was harder to drive. I also noticed the car
porpoising in the straights – IE the front was bouncing. We used to get this with the Le Mans
car on cold tyres sometimes until the tyre pressure built up and the sidewall deflection was
less. It was unusual to see something like this occurring on the Sim!
From my experience of driving late 70’s Formula One cars – they are super easy to drive.
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Considerably easier than a modern F1 car on a modern tyre. The tyres have less grip but
this basically translates as more movement in the tyre as it rolls (which I noticed and
admired in the Sim), which allows you to feel the car and makes the transition from
understeer to oversteer more gradual.
Lotus 78T
Default tyre
Like the Formula A the car felt great under braking, decent cornering grip but suffered the
same turn in “I kill you” attitude of oversteer. And on power it was especially tricky as the
torque of the engine kicked in, it just whipped the car sideways. Turn in and traction is too
severe in terms of oversteer
Test A
Felt marginally better but same issue.
Interestingly I spent a lot of time on the Grass with this car and something was also amiss
here. The grass is like driving on a near frictionless surface, like ice, and moving the car
back onto the track I managed to thoroughly embarrass myself. So the grip on Grass is far
too low. Gravel was better !
I hope this is helpful – there are still some beautiful features working in the background in
terms of the movement in the cars, the way you sense the roll and the rate at which these
movements manifest themselves. Looking forward to a mindmeld with Casey and
understanding what’s going on behind the scenes!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys, I have been doing some testing with the new GT Flash Green tyres, I will post a
blog soon about my findings J I have noticed that with these tyres, it is really important to
have a good car setup, I have been playing around with the settings and have found 6
tenths between setup. I will go into more detail later. All is feeling good and its just a
pleasure to drive these cars J See you all in a bit
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So I have been testing the new Flash Green GT tyre and I plan to test it out on all of the
cars Casey has asked for, so I am doing them all in separate blog posts rather than all in
one massive one.
Here is my feedback form the BMW M3 GT using Build 511.
BMW M3 GT
Belgian Forest GP
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So I first tested these tyres at Belgian Forest GP using my own car setup and instantly felt
more grip compared to the last set of tyres I tested on this car, the front end felt really
positive and the tyres produced a lot of grip under braking meaning you could brake
deeper and later than before. Traction wise I feel there is less, but this is how I think it should
feel as before there was too much grip on power meaning you could just hit the throttle
pedal and the car will just pull you out of the corner with no issues, with the way the tyres
are now, you have to think before picking up the power which is nice and sometimes have
to correct the oversteer which is very realistic.
For some reason, I keep experiencing some sort of bug with this car at Belgian Forest GP, if I
am driving and then go to change car setup and then return back to the circuit, the car is
all jumpy and sometimes causes the game to crash. If I load the game up again the
problem is solved, but then returns if I change car setup.
Besos GP
Because of the above issue, I changed my testing track to Besos GP as this seemed to work
fine with no issues. It was good that I changed circuit as it showed me how realistic the
physics are, as the setup I used for Belgian Forest did not work for Besos. Whilst I was figuring
out how I wanted the car to react for Besos, I noticed that the tyres were reacting
differently compared to Belgian Forest, as this time I was struggling with a lot of understeer
where as before at Belgian Forest the front end was really positive.
I found that the general feeling of the car was very lazy at the front, as you had to be very
patient on the power whilst waiting for the front end to go where you wanted it. Braking I
felt was not as strong, as it seemed there was less grip in this area, but this should be the
case for different track conditions and should be a factor in moving from track to track
depending on the time of year and time of day etc.
As the basic balance of the car was understeer, the only way I could get rid of it was to
take more grip off of the rear which would help the front go in better but would create
more oversteer and potentially less traction. After I made some very slight changes, the car
transformed and was really nice to drive with the rear turning and oversteering to get the
front to turn. Part of me feels that if I had the car setup how I have in the game in real life
then I would be a nutcase, but I also feel that this is how the car needs to be to do what I
want. The default setup and basic balance has too much grip for me.
With the changes I made, the car is not easy to drive as you have to correct the car all the
time through a corner, but this shows how accurate and affective the changes were
which adds to the overall realism and accuracy of the game and physics of the car which
is great.
I personally feel that there are no big issues with this tyre as once the grip problems over
kurbs and off track serfaces, which Casey knows about are solved, then it will be a great
tyre to run. I am starting to feel that we are at a very good level now where every tyre AJ
and Casey gives us to try works really well which makes my job harder to pick out the flaws,
now it is all about the finer details as the foundation of the tyre is really good!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Casey do I need to use the default tyre compound for the Zonda R? At the moment there
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is only Default, GreenFlash GT Rain and then the Pirelli Tyres and no GreenFlash GT Slick.
Casey Ringley:
Default is Pirelli P Zero Slick is GT Slick - GreenFlash. Default is good for testing J The rain tire
will be good too, in fact. Seeing a lot of comments in other threads that we've maybe
moved too far toward oversteer on the balance with the new set. Could be interesting to
see if the rain tire has a better feel for most people even if it is slower overall.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Cool,
I will try both tyres tomorrow and let you know my thoughts mate.
You are doing a great job, the cars are feeling much better and feeling a lot more realistic.
If there is anything more specific you need me to do, then let me know!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Casey, GreenFlash GT tyres are feeling really nice with the BMW Z4 GT3 now I have fixed
the steering issues I was having.
I find the way the tyres react with this car is a lot better than with the M3 GT and the M3
GTS GT4. I will go into more detail for you tomorrow as I am in the middle of collecting my
feedback, but I just quickly wanted to give you an overview of what I think which is that
the Z4 seems to be reacting more realistically with these tyres than the other 2 cars I have
mentioned.
What are your main thoughts with the tyres the way they are at the moment, and what
route are you aiming to take? At the moment, the GTS GT4 and the M3 GT seem to
struggle with highspeed and washout mid corner, giving you understeer and the feeling of
an overheating tyre. The Z4 on the other hand feels really planted and is reacting how a
slick should with a lazy characteristic if you overdrive the tyre, but gives you a realistic level
of grip and feeling throughout the lap.
Obviously, as you know, each car will react differently to the GT Slick which is what I am
experiencing, so are you trying to develop a tyre which reacts realistically for all GT3 and
GT4 cars, or are you going to change the characteristics of the tyre for each car so that
they all have a focussed/accurate tyre?
Casey Ringley:
We're finally getting to the point with this tyre where it feels more like fine tuning than
getting base behavior correct, so that excites me. That we get a very different experience
on different cars probably says something about suspension geometry more than the tire
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at this point. For the M3 GT, in particular, the CAD we were supplied had some pickup
points missing and we had to guess for those. I'll probably schedule looking at those again
to see what we can do to get better use of the tires. Splitting off a GT4-specific compound
is very likely too as I'm sure they have slightly different compound+construction for the
low/zero downforce, typically heavier cars. Custom FFB tweakers for each car is a high
probability too. I'd like to keep a single tire each for GT3/GTE and GT4 as much as possible,
though, since that's largely how the cars run in the real world.
Nicolas Hamilton:
I am really struggling with the FFB on the BMW Z4, I do not have any Tweakers in my folder,
and the wheel is shaking like crazy and then snapping left or right under braking. What can
this issue be? It is making the car undriveable, no one else seems to be having this issue.
Can anyone help?
Thanks
Remco van Dyk:
Did you delete your profile after the game updated to the latest version?
I'm not sure whether it has to do with the recent FFB additions, but you could try and put
the attached FFB Tweakers file in the FFB folder and see if that makes any difference?
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys, I hope everyone is well.
So this post is going to be based on the BMW Z4 GT3 in Build 522, which a lot of us have
been testing over the past few days. I have been testing at Wisconsin as that is where the
CPFT Event is this week and so it is the best place for this week ☺.
So in this post, I aim to cover most things, which Casey has asked for in his Testing notes for
this week and so I have not been going for outright pace like I usually do, and instead
have focussed on getting I stable balance to test different aspects of the car and tyres.
Force Feedback
As you all know, I have been struggling a lot with FFB and the steering with this car and
have found it very frustrating as I never use to have a problem back in the early days of
STM. The way I felt was that the FFB was actually working against my actions, under braking
and mid-corner making the car really difficult to drive and control. Under braking the
Feedback created a left to right snap or a knock meaning that the car wouldn’t brake in a
straight line and sometimes cause an unrealistic characteristic of a pendulum affect whilst
braking. To try and help the situation under braking, I turned down the FFB Tyre Force
Multiplier from 4.0 to 1.2 or 1.1 as I felt that this minimised the FFB going against my actions
whilst braking.
As well as the braking issue, I have found that the wheel goes really light with almost Zero
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FFB once the initial turning faze is done and you get to mid-corner, by this I mean that, the
FB feels strong and good when you start tuning the wheel on entry, but as soon as you get
to mid-corner, the wheel goes light all of a sudden which gives you the feeling that the
front wheels have just been lifted up off the ground and results in you feeling like the
steering wheel is not connected to the Steering Boss, in real life the wheel weight does not
vary that much from corner to corner, maybe just a slight amount, but it does not go light
mid-corner.
Regarding lock-up FFB, the knocking affect should be present when locking up, but it
should not be so strong that it starts turning the wheel sharply, when locking up in real life, a
tug is felt for sure, but you do not have to fight the wheel during this faze, the weight of the
wheel is still near enough the same but the wheel feels stiffer during the lock up faze.
Once the changes to the Default setup were made in Build 522 and the FFB Tyre Force
Multiplier default was set to 2.0, this helped the issues I was having under braking, but I still
felt the wheel going light mid-corner. Overall I feel a little more work is needed just to give
more of a realistic feeling both under braking and when cornering, but the changes that
were made in FFB from Build 521 to Build 522 were great.
General Balance
Originally in Build 521 I found it difficult to get the correct overall balance, as I am sure that
the FBB issues I was having were not helping at all and so I really struggled with braking
instability, entry oversteer, mid-corner understeer and lack of traction on exit. After
‘messing’ around with car setup for a while, I got a decent balance but not really what I
wanted overall.
Braking instability
I found that the FFB issue was the main problem which was causing the instability, but FFB
issue aside, I found reducing brake pressure and also moving brake bias to the front really
helped but it was a very fine balance between brake bias percentage and brake pressure
as one affected the other and vice versa, which is to be expected.
Understeer/Oversteer
I feel that the general feeling of this car is oversteery and so you really have to work on
getting the rear to sit and react how you want it to, but not let the changes you make to
the rear, affect the feeling of the front. It is a very fine balance of getting the rear where
you want it, to give you entry stability but also move a little to give you a decent front end.
What I found the biggest difference in Car Setup changes were the Front and Rear sway
(Anti-roll) bars and the front and rear springs, too soft or too stiff on either transforms the car
completely, sometimes for the good and then sometimes for the terrible, which is really
good; as these sort of changes in Real life is something you can feel instantly from one
setup to the other.
Build 522
The changes Casey made to the default setup were great, as he noted in the Physics
Releases Thread, the tyres felt softer, with a lot more initial bite and grip on turn in, with a lot
more traction on exit. When I first drove the new default changes, I was struggling with rear
traction a lot, but a quick change reducing rear camber and rear toe angle really kept the
car planted on power. As I said before, I have just been developing a nice base setup, but
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what is good is that I keep making little tweaks that makes the car better and better. I
personally have no issues with this car now, with the changes that have been made to the
default setup, I think it is a very nice and safe car to drive which gives you a lot of reward
when the car is set just how you like it. The FFB for me is the only thing that is an issue and
this for me affects the overall feeling of the car, but aside from that, the balance and
changes to the tyres are great.
Tyre Temperature
In terms of tyre temperature, the temperature is reacting more realistically with the tyres
heating up over time and not cooling down as rapidly compared to the previous builds.
My only criticism is the fact that I cannot feel any difference in the car from when it has
cold ambient tyres, to tyres which are at optimum temperature, you are unable to heat
the tyres up when driving at Formation Lap pace as this is too slow for the temperature
gain parameters which I feel is wrong, as weaving and temperature preparation is the
most important part before the start of a race. It seems that the only way to heat the tyres
up is by driving fast on them unrealistically, as when driving fast to heat them up, there is no
characteristic of a cold tyre as there is still the same amount of grip everywhere, whereas it
should be like driving on a ‘knife edge’ for a couple of laps until the temperature comes
up, in which then the car will improve corner by corner.
I would personally like to see the tyre temperature starting from ambient, and then you
have to work hard to get the heat up before pushing on them, weaving, braking hard and
feeling the car slide and grip is what I feel will improve the realism of the feeling on cold
tyres, at the moment the drop off in grip level compared to the temperature in the tyres is
not enough, but also weaving at slow pace has no affect on temperature gain. Can this
be changed with some parameter tweaks?
In RWD cars, the rears are always easier to bring up to temperature, as all of the power is at
the rear, meaning that the front tyres are very difficult to bring up to temperature causing
a lot of understeer. For FWD the characteristics are reversed, but I personally think FWD cars
are a lot harder to bring up to temperature as the rear is very ‘twitchy’.
Helmet Cam
Something really small I found when using helmet cam was that when accelerating, the
visor became really blurry to the stage where I could not see the dash which should not be
the case, I think that this is meant to simulate vibration but the car does not vibrate that
much in real life that it causes your eyesight to go blurry J
All in all, the improvements and detail in this car are great, it is just a few things regarding
FFB and realistic feeling in tyre temperatures which I feel will really transform the whole
experience of the car if there were a few more tweaks, but overall, I think that car is great
and has made a massive steps forward
Onwards…
Nicolas Hamilton:
Ok so I just noticed something and it gave me an idea....
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So as you all know, I normally use Buttons for sim racing but use pedals when I race in real
life. I have now started using pedals and so the 1.36.1 in the Zonda R around Bologna is me
using pedals without TC J
The main thing I wanted to mention was BRAKES in the Zonda R. Every car I have raced in
real life has had no ABS, which is normal to me and means that brake modulation is vital for
braking correctly and stopping the car where you want it.
With Pcars, I used buttons so I always had ABS on, but now I am using pedals I have turned
it off and feel that the brakes are not very realistic. The unrealistic issue I am having is the
fact that locking up is pretty much instant as soon as you hit the brakes, which means that
you cannot brake the same as you would in Real life.
Some cars like the Clio Cup car do not require a lot of brake pressure and so all you need
to do to reach maximum pressure is rest your foot on the pedal and it should be enough,
but when you move up into touring cars, the brake pressure is a lot higher with the pedal
being a lot stiffer meaning that you need to 'Stamp' on the brake pedal to get the car to
stop, the initial 'hit' is most important, as you are aiming to reach about 50/60 bar of
pressure with a pedal that feels 'solid' when you press it. Obviously, the more pressure you
can generate under braking, the later you can brake.
The Zonda R is meant to have proper racing brakes on it, which means that in real life it
would require you to 'stamp' on the pedal and then modulate off for the corner, at the
moment you are unable to 'stamp' on the pedal without locking up instantly, I have found
this issue also with the Formula B and A etc.
So my question is, would it be possible to try and simulate the braking of every car we have
on the game to their braking characteristics in real life? So what I mean is that you have to
change your braking technique for every car you drive, as at the moment, you have to be
soft on the brakes in every car to avoid it locking up which is unrealistic, as a car like the
Formula A (F1) requires at least 100 Bar of pressure to stop. Obviously we can not simulate
the 'stiffness' of the pedal and get the complete correct feeling, but is there a way where
you have to be harder on the brakes in one car where you have to 'stamp' on it and in
other cars like road cars you have to be gentle?
Locking up in a race car does not happen instantly if you 'stamp' on it, it only occurs late in
the braking faze (depending on conditions) Some cars lock up very easily like the Clio Cup
car, as there is no way you could stamp on it and get away with it.
I have had a few of my mates driving Pcars without ABS who are also racing drivers and
have 'Stamped' on the brakes for the first time as they do in Real life and have instantly
locked up and gone straight off.
I am not sure if everyone agrees with me, but this to me is just fine detail to make the game
more realistic, if everyone is happy with the way it is now then this is of course fine, but I use
ABS as I find it unrealistic without and with ABS I am able to hit the pedal how you should.
Casey Ringley:
It's a very tricky aspect, as you've discovered! Since every car has a different braking feel,
getting something that feels right for most on typical game controllers is a tall order. Most
feedback I've seen is that the newfangled load cell brake pedals do a great job at
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increasing the feel such that you can 'stomp' on them as you would in a proper race car.
Don't have one of those yet myself, so can't comment on it much more than that. The
more common potentiometer pedals (standard G25/G27 and such) is such a long way
from simulating a real braking system that getting a 'real' feel out of it may be out of scope
of the hardware. Certainly something we will be working on right up to release; tweaking
pressure settings per car, response curves and such to get the best feel possible within the
limitations. What wheel/pedals are you using, Nic?
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey Casey,
Sorry for the late reply, I have been having a lot of problems with my internet in my new
house. It works in the office but not in my room, so I am unable to use pCars for the
moment L
I am using the Thrustmaster T500 wheel and Pedals. I think tweaking and playing around
with brake pressure and response curves is a good idea. I do not think that the subject of
braking is too important, as a lot of people are happy with the way the way it is at the
moment and we need to make sure that players using gamepad etc are not affected. I
just posted my thoughts on how we could get the braking feel a little more realistic
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Handling Consultants Feedback – August 2013
AUGUST 2013
Nicolas Hamilton:
I have been really struggling with kerb issues with the Zonda all kurbs are silpery, but some
are a lot worse than others, especially at Bologna.
The grip on the grass is terrible too, its like putting a race track in the middle of an ice rink,
and so every time you touch a kerb or grass, its like you have just hit ice!
This kerb issue has been a problem for a long time with many cars and should get
improved soon because this will help with overall testing, its not good that you have to miss
the apex of one corner so you dont hit the kerb otherwise you lose traction and spin, some
kerbs when you use them just pull you off into the wall etc.
The default setup so far has improved, but still needs a bit of work, I think it needs to be on
a level that it is stable and fast, so that the sim racers that do not know how to set up a car
and just use Default all the time, have a chance to be on the same pace as the people
that change setup etc. Someone PM'd me yesterday asking for help with setup for the
Zonda R at Bologna as he was struggling to get faster than a 1:43. I told him a few changes
to make and he instantly found 2 seconds and is now doing a 1:41 with no problem.
As the default setup needs more work, I think it is important that we have the car set up to
be competitive and stable so that everyone has a chance of being quick as there are a
lot of people who have the potential to be fast, but their car setup lets them down, as if
they do not have it right with a car like the Zonda R, it will be a lot harder to drive at any
pace.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Just done a few laps with the M3 GT at Montery, car feels really nice, the default setup is
really strong which is really promising. Personally I feel the rear is a bit too forgiving at the
moment, you can launch the car into the corner and get away with a lot, even with a lot
of oversteer and the car set up to turn on itself, it is too kind, almost like you cannot go over
the limit of grip produced by the tyre. Traction is quite a big issue, not once the car is
straight, but through a corner, picking up the power is quite difficult as the rear becomes
really nervous and once the rear brakes traction on power, then there is no controlling it
and no way of getting it back.
I will be posting more once I finish my testing J
Nicolas Hamilton:
Build 532 M3 GT
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Ok guys so I have been doing some more testing and I am in 2 minds about the feeling of
this car. My first mind is that the car feels very responsive, it does near enough everything
you ask it to and is enjoyable when just doing long runs and not pushing. My second mind
is that I do not think it feels realistic enough yet, as I said before, it has a lot of grip
regardless of what changes you make, which is a good thing as you always want good
grip in a car, but I feel that it is at a point, where it is partly unrealistic by allowing you to use
unrealistic actions to suit the car. There are aspects of the car that let you get away with
anything and then there are aspects of the car that bites you for no reason.
The grip level and the way the car behaves, feels close to BTM which in my opinion was
too grippy and very 'Arcadey'. At the moment the amount of speed you can carry on
entry with the rear holding on regardless until you pick up the power is not too good. For
me it means that, it is not about whether you drive the car like you should or would in real
life, but the fact that that the only way to be quick, is to drive the car how the game wants
you to drive it (if you understand what I mean). This then means that if you have a better
understanding of the game, you will be fast, regardless of whether you can race a car in
real life or not because you are you are driving to the game and not to the car.
Obviously we do not want this game to get to a stage where it is so realistic and hard to
drive that only racing drivers and very good sim races can drive it well, but we need to get
it to a level of which you have to drive the car like you would have to in real life in order to
drive it at a good pace.
Even though the car has a lot of grip mid-corner etc, it is very inconsistent on the limit due
to lack of grip over kerbs, with some being usable and grippy and some being like 'ice'. The
affect of grass and gravel needs to be improved, with the grass also feeling like 'ice' and
needs to be gripped up a bit. (in the wet, the grass should be like it is now, but in the dry it
is not as bad)
So personally, I think that the grip in which the tyres produce needs to be reduced with a
realistic fall off point, so that you can feel the limit of the tyre but have to work the
temperatures to get there etc and if you overdrive the tyre then you either lose
stability/spin or lose time. At the moment, the car is very predictable on entry and mid
corner, but unpredictable on exit and over kerbs. As well as reducing the grip of the tyres
for entry and mid corner, traction needs to be increased when the car is under load
through a corner. At the moment, even with being smooth on the power creates an
unexpected loss of traction out of slow corners when even in 3rd gear. Controlling the car
through slides or out of corners on power, is like 'walking on a tightrope', which in the wet
and in damp conditions on slicks may be the case, but in dry conditions, slides and loss of
traction is progressive and not snappy, which the car is at the moment as it is purely luck if
you catch a slide.
Feedback wise, the car feels better than the Z4 with the steering feeling more realistic from
the amount of lock you use to how the car reacts, but the reduction in 'wheel weight'
when mid corner is still present and I have absolutely zero feeling of feedback over kerbs,
all I can feel is tire force.
So overall I think that it is mainly about reducing the predictability of the tyres on entry,
which is causing unrealistic actions, but creating more traction with a more realistic fall off
point where there tyre has a limit of load but also has the forgiveness in slides and lack of
traction moments, making them all more controllable and less of a lottery.
I am still doing some testing, so I will post more if I find out anything else of which I have
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missed :D
Oh and one thing I noticed was if you watch the replay at Montery, when the car is
coming out of the last corner and coming towards the camera, the engine sound goes
very weird, it is hard to explain, you guys will just have to try it for yourselves J
EDIT: It does not happen all the time, only sometimes.....sometimes out of the cork screw
and then sometimes out of the last corner, not sure what the issue is.
Ben Collins:
Hey Nic - i totally concur on various points here
1. Something is strange with the grass and off track grip, and i noticed the return from grass
to track at Bologna was unusual too
2. Would love to hear what you changed on the Zonda - personally i found it very
unpredictable with mega snap o/steer
3. Mostly i'm behind the default set-ups being better in general and people being able to
stray away from it to suit their personal preferences, but i think the standard set ups should
be know to be good and close to the mark - a base set up.
Are you noticing the snap o/steer that has been creeping into the sim in the last month of
builds? I wonder how you're getting on with this.
Stay Speedy
Best Ben
Ben Collins:
PCARS Build 527
This report follows on from the focus on stability under braking and corner entry “brake &
Steer”. There’s some interesting variation now with certain models so I hope Casey and the
team find this useful!
Usual Venue: Imola – great for testing because of the heavy braking, mix of high and low
speed, the kerbs and the corners where you brake into the apex.
BMW Z4 GT3
When you combine braking with any steering input, the rear becomes highly unstable or
the car auto rotates. This is really noticeable as you crest the hill for braking into the final
corner at Imola. By comparison the DTM here was lively but controllable and I’m glad to
see that there are more controllable versions of this characteristic in other models.
The general features of the BMW seem pretty good but honestly the brake and turn in for
me is a priority because without this initial stability it is difficult to drive the car properly.
Pagani Zonda
This car is totally different from those models with the “brake & steer” snap oversteer issue.
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The front end feels very wooden and I found myself drifting onto the grass during the gentle
kinks in the straights at Imola, because the car wouldn’t truly obey the steering wheel.
Under braking there was very little grip compared to what I would expect from this car and
I felt this stemmed from an overall lack of front grip.
Formula A
The FA still has this “brake & steer” snap o/steer issue and I really notice it under braking on
entry into the left hander at the Villeneuve S. The car just rotates in the mid corner at quite
high speed. It also rotates on me at the following lower speed corner, the hairpin at Tosa.
The reason I reference the speeds is because the downforce should be relevant – IE the
car shouldn’t snap as much as this at higher speed when the downforce is on and when it
is off at low speed, but it does. It shouldn’t be this aggressive at low speed either in my
view.
The thing that interests me about this feature is how it manifests itself in my old flame, the
Renault 98T.. Love is back in the room.
FA: TRACTION
The FA also feels very low on traction. It’s almost like the inside wheel is spinning all the time,
at least that’s how it feels. Basically it’s like there’s not enough rear grip at low speed. It
really should sit down and squat more when you press the throttle rather than instantly
breaking traction. Currently the grip level feels like a wet track with the tyre moving and
squirming on the tread block. It feels soft.
Summary: I hope we can dial out the “brake & Steer” instability and improve rear traction
to make this baby more driveable. I think it’s good for the 98T to be lairy on the power
band but the FA should be much easier.
98T
It seems like someone has loaded the 98T with a ton of grip! Whether this is masking the
issues I was having with it before or not I cannot say, but I’m loving the 98T again!
“Brake & Steer”
The 98T when I first fell in love with it had a small characteristic at the rear end where it
would buck slightly, IE slide slightly, under heavy braking at LOW SPEED as you entered the
corner. This was a MEGA FEATURE.
That feature disappeared and was replaced by mega instability until this latest build.
At the Villeneuve S , I notice the 98T turn quite sharply on the brake as I switch direction
from the left to the right. It bucks slightly sideways. This is precisely the spot where the
Formula A currently auto rotates. The relevance: this characteristic must be something we
can tune and dial in ?
Short of making the rear skid like this with the brake pedal, the 98T would still benefit from a
more aggressive turn in like it had in previous builds. That might sound confusing: “Ben is
moaning about stability under braking and corner entry and in the same breath saying he
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wants a more aggressive turn in”, I hear you cry.
What I mean is that the car should dart in when you turn the steering wheel, and it should
dart in more aggressively when you turn the wheel faster. At Piratella (the fast left at the
top of the hill at Imola) you really want that sharp crisp turn in when you brake late. And
curiously I found myself skidding the car slightly sideways on the brake pedal to get a
similar effect.. !
(I hope I’m making sense – it’s the difference between the rear sliding too much when you
steer which we have in the FA, and the front digging in and pointing where you want to go
which we are beginning to notice in the Go Kart OR SOMETHING IN BETWEEN!)
In Summary on the brake & steer – this car has a much diluted version of the issue on the FA
and as a result is controllable. What I would like to see is a more positive front end on turn in
and for this rear skidding on the brake to be less apparent in the fast corners, but to have a
role at lower speed into some of the slower corners. That’s actually where this car was
some moons ago and I’m pleased to see it heading back in that direction.
Traction
If you have any steering on when the power band kicks in then the 98T is really hard to
control. I found myself admiring the power band as the boost kicked in and being forced
to learn it’s ways was a good thing.
The technique I developed involved getting the car mostly straight and then flat footing it
which largely cured the loss of traction, this felt a tad artificial and in RL I would expect to
get more power down out of the corner but this is a minor observation. I think the boost is a
SUPERB feature - I would just like to have a bit more control of the car when it does slide
because once it oversteers she really bites. Yes, so does the real thing but you have more
chance of controlling it.
One minor observation was at the chicane. I hit the kerbs and managed to flip the car
over! OK yes I was being an animal but it shouldn’t be possible to flip an F1 car this way. In
general the kerbing was very good.
Conclusion
What excites me is the breadth of handling characteristics I can see across the models
now. It means that we can tune things like engine characteristics, wet handling and other
realistic items into the Sim.
Looking forward to seeing what Casey comes up with next as I know his focused glare is
burning a hole in some of these issues and the good stuff keeps getting better. Love your
work folks!!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Just done a few laps with the Kart at Chesterfield and I see some great improvements.
Still some details we need to sort, but there has been some great steps forward.
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I will go into more detail in my next blog!
Good job AJ
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope everyone is well.
So I was home for a day or two before I flew to Canada, as I said before I left, I took my
testing notes from the weekend and finished my blog off on the plane to post when I
arrived.
So here it is and it is about my findings in Build 549 and will include the Kart, BMW M1 Procar
and the BMW M3 E30.
Before I go into the specific cars I tested, I feel that the general feeling of most cars at the
moment, when on the limit needs to be looked into. To me it seems that a lot of cars are
very unpredictable when pushing hard, mainly due to how the rear responds when turning
on entry and traction on exit, sometimes a car feels planted through a corner or on exit
etc. but most of the time, they feel very ‘edgy’ and ‘twitchy’, which makes you feel like
you are ‘treading on egg shells’ as the slightest of movements can cause the car to slide or
have a moment that is very difficult to control or catch.
The way I see it is that, when I am on a qualifying lap in real life, I know exactly what the
car is going to do throughout the lap and if/when the car moves or slides, I know I can
control it to a point where I do not lose much time. With Pcars I find it very difficult to push
on a lap without making a mistake, due to the car being unstable, unpredictable and
unrealistic in its characteristics, as sometimes you can be in a straight line and the car will
just snap to a point where you cannot get it back, or sometimes, you are mid-corner and if
you turn too much, the car just turns on itself and spins.
Back in the BTM days, as we all know, the cars were a little easy to drive which was fun, but
made you drive unrealistically by being able to throw the car into the corners without
worrying whether it would grip up or not, even though they were easy to drive, they felt
very predictable with no strange actions of over reacted snaps or twitches making each
car consistent over long runs on the limit etc. Since we have been developing STM, the
handling and physics of the cars have transformed completely and have become a lot
more realistic, but sometimes the cars now behave in an odd manner, which makes
consistency and general feeling of the cars a lot tougher and more unpredictable.
I personally feel that we need to tighten up a lot of cars, where they become more
forgiving by having more progressive slides, which are controllable. Obviously every car
has a limit to where it will slide and eventually spin etc. but I feel that the window for
mistakes on most cars is so narrow and punishing, that it makes the feeling of the car more
unrealistic.
I think if we could increase the grip fall off point of the tyres so that the car has to rotate
more before the tyres start to lose grip, then this would give a more realistic feeling and a
warning to the driver when they are at the limit of the tyre.
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In Real Life, you can feel when you are at the limit of the tyre as the car starts to ‘squirm’
and move a little, whereas at the moment, the rear of most cars is very light, unstable and
they rotate very easily to a point where they brake through the grip fall off barrier very
easily causing a sudden snap or movement with no warning. This takes away the feeling of
the car sliding and gripping, as at the moment, the cars only slide and spin. The only time a
slide is controllable is when you control the rear with the throttle, which is correct, but the
car should also be able to slide and grip off power as this is what a driver relies on through
a corner (mid-corner stability). As well as the fall off point of the tyres taking away the
sliding and griping feeling; it also takes away the feeling of the tyres being grippy at
optimum temperature as at the moment, the tyres still feel and react in the way they
would if they were cold, even when the tyres are cold, there is no real change in grip
levels. In real life, when you are heating up tyres, they at first feel very slippery and snappy,
but as they start to heat up, you can start to feel them gripping up as well as feeling the
outside of the tyre getting warmer, making it harder to throw the car around etc. In the
game there is no feeling of the tyres gripping up throughout the lap and throwing the car
around just causes it to snap into a spin.
Overall I think by making the tyres more forgiving will give a better overall balance of
consistency, which will make slides easier to control and sudden snaps more realistic and
believable. The way the cars snap at the moment is correct for a cold tyre, but with a
warmer/hotter tyre, snapping should be reduced.
Karts
Ok so, I have not driven the karts for a while and so I was excited to see/feel the changes
made over the past month. The first thing I noticed was that I had to turn down my steering
sensitivity from the setting I was using for the BMW M1 Procar, as when I first drove the kart,
the steering sensitivity was just way too much.
After my sensitivity issues were sorted, I was able to do a few laps to analyse the changes
made to the kart and how the chassis reacts. The easiest way I can explain the feeling of
the chassis on a whole, is that it feels like the rear is ‘floating’ everywhere, almost to the
point that you do not think the rear of the kart is on the floor. This causes issues such as,
snap oversteer under braking and over sensitive lock ups. As AJ mentioned in his CPFT Test
notes, there is a lot of rear movement both on entry and exit, where the kart does not feel
tight or ‘grippy’ at all.
As I have said in the past, the chassis feels like a ‘car’ chassis where there is no ‘pointy’
feeling or any feelings of the kart being ‘nimble’, this to me is the biggest issue we have. If
you drive in a straight line and ‘Free Wheel’ (take your foot off the throttle and roll) and try
to ‘throw’ the kart from left to right, there is no sharpness, no sense of urgency and no
sense of the chassis being nimble.
Because the chassis feels like a car, it is set up to try and be a nimble kart, which is the
reason why the rear is floating. For me, it feels like I am driving/pushing a ‘shopping trolley’
(or shopping cart) where the chassis does not flex or move, and the wheels float
underneath. This then causes the kart to feel like it has a mind of its own, as once the kart
snaps either under braking or through a corner then it feels like a ‘tank on ice’ where there
is no way of getting it back and you are just a passenger.
The lack of sharpness, feeling of being pointy and nimble causes the kart to feel unrealistic
through a corner. At the moment, we have to brake and turn to get the kart to pivot
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whereas it should just pivot ‘off throttle’ depending on how you turn the wheel. There is a
lot of power oversteer which is caused by the rear feeling ‘floaty’ and a lot of understeer
mid-corner which forces you to drive the kart like a car e.g. lifting mid-corner to get the
front to the apex.
With the work that AJ has done with the behaviour of the kart when ‘jacking’ is a positive
step forward, where if you touch the brakes and turn, the kart progressively pivots and
progressively slides, which feels really nice when you get it right. The only issue with the
behaviour of the chassis when the kart pivots at the moment, is the fact that the rear
continues to ‘float’ and turn/oversteer, whereas it should pivot and ‘sit’/grip.
The unpredictability under braking I feel is all caused by the brakes being too sensitive, just
a touch of the brake pedal will lock the rears up, meaning that the sensitivity of the brakes
together with the rigidity of the chassis, with no flex at all, causes the snap.
The way the kart is reacting in terms of snapping and sliding is near enough the same to
what I was enplaning above about most of the other cars in the game. As our current kart
model is based on our car chassis, then it reacts like some of our cars do with the lazy, over
reacting slides etc., but because we are trying to make a car chassis handle like a kart, the
pointy characteristic we have tried to introduce to make it feel like a kart have made the
snap worse. There is no middle ground at the moment in terms of pivot and slide and grip,
you can either brake well by ‘treading on egg shells’ and the kart will pivot well, or you use
the brakes a bit too much and the kart snaps into an uncontrollable spin.
AJ as you know, what I am writing is not to disrespect the improvements and work you
have already done, because I feel that the pivot changes with the progressive slides etc.
are the biggest steps forward you have made so far. I think the characteristic that is letting
you down the most is the fact that there is no ‘off throttle’ pivot or pointiness and no
middle ground between braking to get the kart to pivot and grip, to braking and the kart
snapping.
Personally, if you could get to a stage where the kart pivots and grips both on and off
throttle then that would transform the kart completely. With braking, I think that there are 3
characteristics that, if added/refined would also transform the kart. These are;
• Having the brakes lock the rears for a split second without causing the kart to snap,
• Having the rears lock and cause a controllable snap where you can feel the kart
gripping up etc.
• Having the rears lock and causing the kart to spin if you are too heavy on the brakes.
Lastly, a kart has a lot of grip in real life, you can throw it around and it will most of the time
grip up, if we could get the kart to feel tighter with only provoked movement, so when you
throw it around off throttle or when you hit the brakes and throw it in, then the kart will be
at a good level.
I am not sure what you guys think, but if the kart had some of the points I have spoken
about above added to it, then I think it would be a lot more like a kart regardless of
whether it is based on a car chassis or not.
AJ I can see/ feel what you are trying to make the kart do and it is defiantly a good step
forward.
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BMW M1 Procar
Force Feedback
So when I started testing this car at the weekend, the first thing I noticed was an
improvement in the FFB. The wheel weight is really nice with no odd characteristics or any
reoccurring issues from previous builds. The most noticeable/ best part about the current
feedback is that it is a lot more detailed over kerbs, you can now feel the nature of the
kerbs down to feeling each ripple or knock if you hit the kerb at a wrong angle. This
improvement brought a smile to my face ☺
A small bit of detail I found with the FFB over kerbs was that I was only getting detailed
feedback over exit kerbs and zero feedback over kerbs at the apex of a corner.
Lastly, I feel that sometimes the FFB, not just on this car, but on quite a few in the game,
works against you when controlling a slide or moment etc. by sometimes snapping violently
to full lock when trying to regain control of the car, is this something you guys have noticed
also?
General Balance
So when I came to testing this car, I had just finished testing the BMW M3 E30 in Build 547, so
before Casey made the changes. To go from a car that was very twitchy and quite tough
to drive, to driving the M1 Procar was really nice.
I think the general balance of this car is really good with a lot of traction on exit and a
positive front end. For me, the default setup was a little too oversteery, as I felt it was a little
unpredictable when turning in and had the same sort of characteristics of what I spoke
about earlier in the post, which was sliding too much to the point that it wanted to turn on
itself etc.
Once I had made changes by adjusting the roll bars (sway bars) and spring settings etc.
the car was a real pleasure to drive, with a hint of the rear moving when you want it to,
causing a slide but not to much to the point that it is uncontrollable. The one characteristic
I really like is how much the Brake Mapping affects the car to the point that it can cause
just enough ‘lift off oversteer’ to bring the car to the apex with the rear staying planted.
What I also like is the fact that the ‘lift off oversteer can also work against you if you use the
wrong technique on the way into a corner, which is very positive as it shows that this car
will bite you if you step too far.
Some people have said that the car has too much grip in terms of traction, in some cases I
agree with this due to the changes in rear wing settings not affecting the traction and
instead affecting rear stability where it should affect both. The only way the car seems to
brake traction at the moment is if you have unsettled the car on the way into the corner
and if you catch it soon enough and get on the power, the rear wheels will light up. Even in
this situation, the car ends up griping up, which is nice, but maybe reducing traction on
power a little will make it a little more realistic, either way, it is a great car to drive and the
general characteristics of the car is starting to remind me of BTM, which is great as I think
finding a balance that is between BTM and STM is the best way to go.
Lastly, the new engine sounds for this car are great!
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BMW M3 E30
So when I first started testing this car at the weekend, my initial thoughts was that I did not
like this car due to the unpredictability of the rear and the snap oversteer sometimes
caused by lack of traction. To start with, I really felt that this car was like a ‘caged animal’,
where you had to be very carful of your actions meaning that you had to ‘tread on egg
shells’ and be careful not to go over the top otherwise there is no way of getting the car
back.
General Balance
The general balance of the car in Build 547 was very oversteery and a bit of a beast to
drive, which is what people say it was like back in the day, so I do not think we are too far
out. I am a driver that does not like oversteer as I always want the rear to be planted. I
made some changes to the car to try and make the rear more stable and succeeded, but
then found traction mid-corner an issue. In Build 547, this was the car that I felt you had to
‘tiptoe’ around the most, both on entry and exit as the car wanted to oversteer on the
way in, understeer mid-corner and then power oversteer on the way out. I personally feel
that the characteristics of the car in Build 547 were not far off at all; I would just say that
there was a little less grip on the rear than needed as catching slides and moments were
like a lottery.
The changes that were made for Build 549 have been very positive in some areas, but not
in others. In terms of the rear feeling more stable/planted is a positive, as it has calmed the
car down a bit, but still has the wild characteristic of the power oversteer snap, which
shows that the car will bite you if you are to aggressive, both with driving style and throttle
technique. The area in which I feel the changes has not helped too much is that fact that,
the understeer caused by the rear being more stable has caused the front tyres to feel like
they just slide across the road and do not actually feel like they are gripping up enough.
Comparing this car to the BMW M1 Procar…I know it is a completely different car, but
when you lift off and turn, you can feel the front tyres gripping up, pulling the car to the
apex, whereas with the M3 E30, there is no real sense of the tyres doing what a slick does,
which is producing quite a lot of grip mid-corner.
Overall, I think that the changes between Build 547 and 549 have been good, but I also
think that there could be a fine balance between the 2 builds, with the car oversteering
too much on entry, but having a positive front end in build 547 and the rear being a lot
more stable, but affecting the front too much, taking away the feeling of the front tyres
gripping up mid-corner in build 549. If there was an in-between where the car had a
positive front end that slightly gripped up mid-corner, with a stable rear with and increased
grip fall of point, so that slides are more manageable, then the car would be even better.
All in all, this game is just improving week by week and as always, it is an absolute pleasure
to be apart of it.
I hope I have not gone on for too long, but I wanted to give some decent, in-depth
feedback as I have been away for a while.
Please give me your thoughts on my feedback by posting them in the ‘Feedback to Nic’s
Comments Thread’
Thanks guys
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Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback. Great as usual.
If you get a chance, try locking up the kart diff all the way. It will understeer some that way,
but I'd like your feedback on the nature of it with the diff fully locked. It does stabilize both
the braking and throttle somewhat. I am learning a little bit more about manipulating
contact patch size behavior in my FC data matching project (which has nothing
contributed to a build yet), so I may be able to re-free the kart up if we lock the diff using
this knowledge. So I am looking for locked-diff feedback wrt braking in particular.
Nicolas Hamilton:
AJ, no worries I will make the changes you have said and will direct my feedback to what
you are looking for.
If you do not mind waiting a week, then I will get straight on it when I return from Canada
next week.
Thanks mate.
Andrew Weber:
No problem. I am working on FC wrt matching F3 tire data, and getting a FC CPFT
delivered in the meantime.
Thanks.
Nicolas Hamilton:
No worries, let me know if you find anything and I will get to work on it. In the meantime, I
am doing test runs with the Formula C and the Caterham R500
Andrew Weber:
Be sure you open up the suspension on the FC. The default setup is messed up and is riding
on the bump stops. edit: so lower the bump stops down to 3 or so.
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Handling Consultants Feedback – September 2013
SEPTEMBER 2013
Ben Collins:
PCARS
Version 552 (after a full system reboot to remove any and all gremlins)
Hi Folks
I hope everyone's well and keeping it on the island! I'm en route to a tyre smashing fest with
Michelin so it's apt that my focus returns once more to the traction curves of a slip angle..!!
This post is short and sweet because my big test is next week across all models including
those i haven't spent as much time in as i would have liked. Really this was just to feedback
on some recent changes for you, AJ and co.
Formula A on the FA tyre
1. The brake & steer problem seems to be much abated, although it's still engrained in me
from the older build to tip toe in on the brakes. But it's much better
2. However we have a new issue - when you turn in off the brakes AND off the power, the
car has a nasty habit of switching ends.
3. Traction feels better and more controllable
4. Braking is amazing and very aggressive on the FA. If anything we have gone too far with
the power of the brakes because in an F1 car / LMP it's almost impossible to lock the tyres
as soon as you hit the brakes, but we can on the sim. That's either because our brake force
is too high or we need greater grip. I did notice that in the default setting the brakes seem
to lock the rears first, so perhaps it's to do with a shortage of high speed aero grip because
i don't think i'm able to brake any later
But the braking repsonse and being able to drive the car on the pedal is very impressive!
Point #2 - when you turn towards a corner off the brake and off throttle, the rear snaps. If
you apply some throttle it seems to steady the platform but that is an unrealistic situation to
be in because it's so extreme. There is no physical reason as such for a car to rotate this
way unless the tyres were cold, but even then you would feel some grip and hope to
recover.
Oddly enough though i find it relatively predictable which means it might be a handling
dynamic in the build. When the sim reads a combination of events: off power, no braking it shuts off rear grip.
5. Turn in - obviously turn in relates to my comment re snap overtsteer. I'm delighted to note
that the turn in to high speed corners is improving and at Piratella at Imola, the car darts in
and then feels steady under power. We are closing in on the perfect balance.
So the question is: what is going wrong on turn in for the slower corners?
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At this point i would like to copy Nic's recent post because it echoes my thought process all
along on the drivability of the car as it relates to sliding. I'm a broken record i know, and the
team are making progress all the time, but: it will be making of the game if we can get the
car to trail its grip away more gently as it skids into yaw. In physics it comes down to a more
forgiving traction curve relative to slip angle.
Here's Nic's comments
"it seems that a lot of cars are very unpredictable when pushing hard, mainly due to how
the rear responds when turning on entry and traction on exit, sometimes a car feels
planted through a corner or on exit etc. but most of the time, they feel very ‘edgy’ and
‘twitchy’, which makes you feel like you are ‘treading on egg shells’ as the slightest of
movements can cause the car to slide or have a moment that is very difficult to control or
catch.
unstable, unpredictable and unrealistic in its characteristics, as sometimes you can be in a
straight line and the car will just snap to a point where you cannot get it back, or
sometimes, you are mid-corner and if you turn too much, the car just turns on itself and
spins."
IN my view
Some of this will come from the physical tweaks to the handling dynamics - how much grip
we give the car at certain speeds, when it perceives vertical loading and most crucially of
all - the tyre model.
In short:
1. we still need more grip in a slide and to iron out the snap oversteer when it's not called
for.
2. love to see more visual movement in the car in terms of roll and pitch, and to have this
tied to the handling dynamics. In the same way that a locked front tyre indicates the
bleeding obvious (you have overcooked it!) i feel we would benefit from a bit more sense
of roll on turn in and pitch under braking. This feedback should help us dial in our senses of
when the car is exceeding its grip level, and the sense of rotation when we slide the car
into a corner. Any thoughts on this point?
Lotus 98T
As always i stay close to my first love in PCARS..
The 98T has recovered much of its charm.
Regards my second point above i still have the feeling that the older build of the 98T has
more movement, dive and roll but leaving that aside i note some excellent improvements.
1. The straightline wheelspin is much improved and i'm grateful because i thought it was
over the top previously
2. The car feels good and controllable on the brakes
3. Traction feels great because the car feels quite forgiving and it makes the transition into
oversteer quite gradually.
4. I feel it has some of the turn in snap oversteer that the Formula A has at lower speeds.
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Looking forward to a grilling later this week!
Ben Collins:
I think this post relates to build 555 - ! Somehow managed to miss the number as it loaded
onto Steam.
I’m starting with my usual ritual – the cars I know best followed by the list Elmo provided to
come later (190E DTM, Group 5 Capri, the BMW M1 and the GT3 cars ) and some that
caught my eye..
Formula A
In General
The FA is like driving an F1 car or an LMP1 in the wet. It feels superb and responsive but
when the car is on the limit in terms of traction, the drop off in grip is huge and its easy to
spin. There’s some great points too
1. Grip drop off when the car slides is a negative
2. Kerbs: a new and serious issue is that Kerbs are pulling the FA and causing: wheelspin as
well as making the car rotate & oversteer. This is completely unnatural and as far as I can
tell unique to this latest build as I was caught out all over the shop (*please see below re
the 98T on this point)
3. Unpredictable turn in oversteer. When I make a really good late brake for a slow corner
and release the brakes in the nick of time, the car unexpectedly rotates into a spin. There
must be a dynamic at play here. Crucially however the FA does not have the “Brake &
Steer Spinning” phenomenon (but others do*)
4. To work around point #3 I tried going 100% lock up on the decel diff. It calmed some
entry o/steer but didn’t affect the trend. For curiosity I also wound the accel diff to 100%
lock up and improved some mid corner stability but when I lost traction it just fell off a
steeper cliff and my Stiggy Avatar took another trip to the infirmary.
5. On turn in – the FA now has a bit of a wobble when you get close to the limit YES!! Love
it. It fires a little warning shot as the tyre thinks about sliding and then doesn’t. This is exactly
the kind of feedback from the tyre I love because it’s giving you the opportunity to feel
your way into the limit.
6. I had to move the brake bias to 70% front because of rear locking issues – the braking on
the FA is bloody awesome.
Separate point on the track – I still feel over-penalised when I run wide and wish this feature
could be turned off – I lose 70% of my laps this way (or maybe I just need to go back to
driving school ☺)
My main concern here is the kerb behaviour. After driving the 98T on both it’s default and
80’s slick tyre I would be very interested to see how much the FA would benefit from a tyre
with more grip..?
Formula B
Default tyre – felt a bit lethargic, prone to locking under braking and too much high speed
u/steer.
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I flicked through the other compounds and found the wooden front end increased with BComp and C – however despite the weirdness of these compounds there was a
driveability on the limit. But overall the FB feels very experimental these days.
98T – o yeah.
1. Kerbs – there are NO ISSUES OVER KERBS with this little beauty. The kerbs behave normally
and don’t suck you in or de-stabilise the car. This is how it should be.
2. The car is bony and aggressive but much more compliant on turn / in with better
feedback through the corner.
3. One issue remains that the traction is heavily dependent on steering angle using the
default tyre IE if you exit a corner with some steering and squeeze the throttle, it will snap
sideways on the power quite easily and its hard to recover unless you’re Clarke Kent. BUT if
you just run round the corner and stand on the gas in a straight line, you head off like a
rocket.
4. Great braking
5. Coming off the brakes after heavy braking and going for the turn in – this car does a little
kick and I love it. It squirms ever so slighty and points you into the corner. This is about the
same point where the Formula A tends to suddenly lose grip – so there’s a key comparison
point here.
6. 80’s slick. Love it. OK I realise it just has more grip which probably masks a host of sins but
point #3 is much reduced on the 80’s slick which is awesome. It’s much more fun and
natural to drive. Braking is unreal on this tyre because it has so much grip but it’s addictive
to drive. Nice one!
Formula Rookie / Formula Ford
I saw this and couldn’t resist. I skipped through the compounds until I reached the F3 Lime
Green which I found was the most realistic.
1. Default and F3 White were too placid and the car would not slide – so I felt Limegreen
was the closest in terms of balance and grip to the real thing
2. View: through the cockpit I feel it’s currently too similar to the FA & FB – it should be
skinnier and you should be able to see more of the tyres (I did shuffle the view but
essentially it looks the same as the bigger cars and I felt this detail was worth mentioning)
3. It needs to be more aggressive and horrible to drive. It should have more turn / in power
so that you can make the car slide if you’re heavy handed
4. It should have less traction / and or more power to get the rear drifting on corner exit
5. This car has the “brake & Steer snap oversteering” issue so that you can’t drive into the
corner on the brake. I played the bias etc to no avail.
The FFord in real life is a challenging, twitchy little bastard to drive. It’s bloody bumpy in the
cockpit and because the engine is a great big lump sitting high in a small car without the
benefit of downforce, the rear is nearly always on the move (*see notes on the Porsche to
follow).
I think this should be represented visually and physically with the handling so that it jumps
around a bit more, is more responsive on turn in and more lively when you climb onto the
power. Also I felt the braking was not aggressive enough and it was hard to lock a front
tyre – in RL it’s easier to lock up, but the loss of grip is slightly less dramatic than in the bigger
cars.
RUF Porsche RGT8
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Now I’ve driven this exact model I confess but it’s very similar to the Porsche 911 GT2 in
many ways, being rear wheel drive and close in power – 550bhp to 620 in the GT2. And all
911’s have the same crucial DNA with the big engine mounted over the rear axle.
1. Moved brake bias to 66% front (rear locking has crept into all models it seems but it’s an
easy fix)
2. Slightly Too much static power u/steer on long sweeping corners
3. Car is good over kerbs
4. The “brake & Steer snap oversteer” is present in this model which is a problem
5. Power and power delivery feel pretty good
My main comment with the Porsche is similar to the Formula Ford. These are more
challenging to drive than the Sim is currently registering. The rear on the 911 hops around
and it would be great just to inject some energy into the rear of this car to represent the
effect of the sudden changes in grip you get when the 911 breaks traction. The main issue
was point #4 which for me should be eradicated whenever it raises its head.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope everyone is well!
This post is going to be based on Build 561 and will cover the Caterham Superlight R500
and the Formula C.
Firstly I am sure you guys will notice that as the cars improve like they are doing now, I will
have less to say in terms of handling improvements, which is what I want, because the less
number of improvements I think there is or should be, the better the game is becoming. I
am hoping that the game becomes so perfect in the future, that all my blog post consists
of is……….’I dove XX car and it was AWESOME!’ J
My last blog post pretty much said everything I felt about the general behaviour of the
tyres and what I felt needed improving and since I have been back, it looks like the issues I
was talking about have been looked into and have really improved. I personally think that
the changes to the tyres over the past week have transformed each car I have driven and
so from now, I do not feel that there is need for massive improvement in terms of how the
tyres behave or react, but instead, fine tuning and tweaking is what I will be looking to do!
Our base foundation is fantastic now and so tweaking each car bit by bit will make them
perfect.
So out of the 2 cars I have been testing, they both have improved massively. The
characteristic they have in common is that they are now becoming controllable and
believable in terms of the grip the car produces on entry, mid corner and exit. A big part of
this improvement I feel is due to the tyres, they are move forgiving and are starting to
produce a very realistic level of grip, both on initial turning and when the tyre is under load
through a corner. Mid-corner is now becoming a lot more controllable with the window of
mistake being wider as the grip fall off point has been increased, all of these fine
adjustments and improvements have made the general balance and feeling of the car
much more realistic, which increases the whole experience of the game.
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Before I go onto the cars that I tested, I just want to say that the most impressive part of this
game so far, is the attention to detail in every car. From my experience, no other game to
date has as much detail in the physics of their cars as Pcars does. Most games e.g. Gran
Turismo 5, have the same basic feeling throughout all of their cars, as they just use the
same model and then make some tiny adjustments to make each car feel different. With
Pcars, each car feels completely different due to the physics of the car matching real life
references and is a credit to everyone involved. We are now starting to raise the bar in the
simulation/gaming industry and it will be very hard to top us when we are finished.
Anyway…..back to business! :P
Caterham Superlight R500
This car is very enjoyable to drive; it feels nimble and is really well balanced. So before the
changes were made in Build 561, the general feeling of the car was great, the rear felt
very ‘floaty’ but controllable, which is how it should be. To start with, I was struggling with
mid corner understeer and lack of traction. As the nature of the car is quite loose, I wanted
to set it up so that it had better initial turn in with good grip mid corner and a decent
amount of traction. After spending quite a bit of time playing around with the setup, I got
to a level where the car was very stable both on entry and mid-corner, but I felt that more
traction was needed.
Once Build 561 was released, I felt that the car was even better with increased levels of
grip mid corner and traction on exit. Although the car felt like it had more grip, it would still
move about under braking, which was causing a slight hint of oversteer on entry, which is
what you want as if you took the oversteer away, there would be too much understeer, so
it is all about getting the right balance. I felt the biggest improvement in general, was with
the tyres and how they allowed a progressive slide, which never use to be the case. I am
seeing this in a lot of cars now and it is great. I feel that the general behaviour of the tyre in
terms of the grip they produce is great, with a controllable progressive slide and the fact
that you are now starting to feel the limit of the tyre through a slide, which is awesome, as
before, there was a progressive slide but then a sudden snap with no warning and no
feeling of being at the limit of the tyre.
In terms of tweaking, a problem I am having is that, yes the car is a lot more controllable
with progressive slides etc. but sometimes there is a massive ‘pendulum’ affect, where you
catch a slide where you are starting to wind down the opposite lock, but the car would
swing the other way with no way of controlling it or getting it back. Obviously the
‘pendulum’ affect can be created by the driver ‘over-correcting’, where they use too
much opposite lock which then, once the car grips back up again, throws them off in the
opposite direction, but in this case, I feel that there is a very fine line which only takes the
slightest of movements from the car and the slightest correction from the driver, causing
the ‘pendulum’ affect with no chance of controlling it. I would say that this affect needs to
be ‘slowed’ down, where the car is more lazy in changing direction from opposite lock
affects, at the moment it snaps violently, but if it was a more progressive affect like the
changes with the tyres have created, then this would make it a lot more controllable and
realistic.
I am not sure whether this issue is caused by my Steering Wheel, as I have had problems
with my wheel for a long time, but I feel that the FFB has a mind of its own, causing the
wheel to turn and work against you, which does not help with the ‘pendulum’ affect issue. I
am getting a new wheel soon and so I will be able to see whether it is the FFB in the
game/car, or my wheel. Does anyone else have this issue? I feel that the strength of the
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FFB changes depending on the amount or steering lock/ angle you have, in this case, I feel
that most of the FFB strength is when the wheel is in the centre and when you turn and go
past the central position, the wheel goes lighter. This causes an issue when you try and
correct a slide and use opposite lock, you have to pass the central position and then go to
the opposite angle, so as the wheel is light from one angle and then you turn to the
opposite angle, (opposite lock) the strength in the centre of the wheel either pulls and
turns the wheel quicker, which gives you no control, or fights against you to where you
cannot turn quick enough. (It is really hard to explain without showing you guys, but I hope
you can sort of understand.) This issue makes the ‘pendulum’ affect worse.
All in all, the general feeling of this car is fantastic and is great fun, as I said earlier, it is now
all about finer tweaks, features such as tyre temps etc. I will go into detail some other time,
but I think that should come after the physics of the tyre is perfected, as tyre temps etc. are
finer/ smaller details.
Formula C
Ok so I like driving this car, I think it is great for a generic chassis and will be really nice once
the development of the car is complete. On the first round of the CPFT testing, I found the
car still very fun and nice to drive, it was nimble and was controllable with no unrealistic
actions. With the first round of testing, the car was very ‘bouncy’ and unstable over bumps
and kerbs, which was the most unrealistic feature about the car, but I knew it was early
stages of development so I did not worry about that too much.
Personally I think that with the first round of testing, to the changes made to the car now,
we are still lacking initial bite and all round grip from the tyres. In round one, the car felt
very lively, but stable but had quite a bit of mid-corner understeer, which you do not want
from a car like this. The only way I felt I could get the car to turn-in at mid-corner how I
wanted, was to lock the deceleration diff to help me to the apex, together with
decreasing the brake mapping to help the car rotate more.
What I am trying to say is that, from the first round of testing to now, I do not think we have
the full behaviour of a slick tyre as at the moment, there is not enough bite and grip mid
corner as the front tyres are sliding across the road more causing the need to use a lot of
steering lock, whereas with a slick tyre in real life, the grip available at optimum
temperature is very good, making the car very stable, predictable and consistent when on
the limit. Of course you can cause understeer and instability by over-driving and putting
unnecessary load on the tyre, but this is down to driver error.
In Build 561, under braking and initial turn-in, the car is good, but as I said, as soon as you
get to mid corner, the tyre just starts to slide. Traction has also decreased with the new
changes, which to me does not replicate a car with downforce, as the downforce should
be pushing the rear down minimising loss of traction and increasing stability. As the rear is
stable through high-speed corners, I feel that the downforce is working correctly and
outlines that the overall grip that the new tyres are producing is not enough. Obviously we
do not want to increase the grip level to how things use to be back in the BTM days, but I
think a slight increase to help with mid-corner understeer and lack of traction is needed.
That all being said, the changes have improved stability over bumps and kerbs, making the
car a lot more realistic when on the limit.
With the new changes, instantly, I felt strength increase in FFB, which I feel is good, but the
laziness of the tyre and the amount of understeer it produces, causes the FFB to work
against you, making it even harder to place the car where you want. Another issue I have
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found with the FFB, is that I have a violent shaking period on the pit straight, which was
present in the previous builds, but this time it is a little worse. The shaking feels like you are
standing on a ‘power plate’ and if I let go of the wheel, the wheel will move from side to
side quite aggressively. Yet again, I am not sure if this is my wheel or not, but it only
happens with this car at the moment.
All in all, I think this car has a great base foundation and balance but needs more grip all
round, especially the front the tyres as this will help to replicate the full grip levels of a
single-seater with aero.
Keep going guys, the improvements are coming thick and fast J
I am going to post additional feedback on the BMW Z4 GT3 soon.
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback.
I completely agree about the bite. That is another way of saying what said about the test
to begin with: the real life data for these tires seem to have strangely high optimum slip
angles. I am replicating what real life data I have (hence the name Match), which results
in the tires not having much bite or responsiveness.
The grip is also nearly the same as the real life tires. I also agree that the grip seems low for
this kind of car.
So I thought about this some more. STM does something very nicely, that I did not factor
into looking at the real life data. When the temperatures are low, not only does the grip go
down, but the optimum slip angles go up (just falls out). So if the tire test data was done on
tires not at their optimum temperature, we'd get exactly what we see in the data: too little
grip and too high slip angles. So my theory is that is exactly what happened. They did their
tire testing on somewhat cold tires.
In other words, maybe the FC is stuck on "mildly cold tires", behaviorally, as-is. Maybe I
need to match the data when the tires are cold, and then let them bite-up as they heat.
Nicolas Hamilton:
This makes sense to me, personally I feel that the tyres react and behave like a 'cold slick'
would. When pushing hard on the front tyres, it feels like you have just put a set of cold
slicks on and are instantly pushing on them without warming them up. The understeer issues
I mentioned in my blog can be reduced by allowing the rear to rotate, but this then means
that you are 'Steering with the rear', which sometimes can be the case in real life, but not
to the extreme that is in the game at the moment. The traction issue I am having is when
the outside rear tyre is under load which causes the snap and loss of grip. This to me feels
like the rear tyre is not heating up correctly, which is causing the lack of grip.
In terms of the data you are 'Matching' the tyres with, it depends on the condition of the
day in real life, from the track temperature down to what compound and make of tyre
was used. I think it would be a great idea to try your theory and to also try the tyres starting
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from cold and then as you say let them 'bite' up as they get to temperature. This to me will
help us replicate the 'cold tyre face', which I was talking about ages ago. At the moment,
it feels like we are in the 'Cold tyre faze' constantly,
I think what you have worked out is great and to me, makes perfect sense.
Nicolas Hamilton:
AJ,
Just quickly...
I have just finished a few laps in the Racer V8 RS and it is awesome mate! This car for sure is
the best handling car so far in terms of stability and balance. When I first started on the
Default setup, the car was really planted, easy to drive with lots of traction. It has a lot of
initial understeer and is very lazy on entry, but as I developed my setup, I found a way to
get around it, which was to put a faster steering rack in the car and then turn the deacceleration lock up to help slow the car down.
What I found was really impressive was the stability under braking, it is the best I have
experienced yet, you can brake deep into the heart of the corner and trail brake all the
way in if needed.
In terms of the tyre, I used F3 Tyre A and felt that it was a lot better on this car than the FC.
The downforce of this car obviously helps, but you can still feel the fall off snap if you turn
and get on the power at the same time. This has its pros as it means that you have to be
careful on the power to gain the traction.
I will go into more detail in my next blog, but I think the F3 tyre A is great on this car. 2 things
I would change..
1. is to have a bit more intial bite on the front, as even though I have set the car to minimise
the initial entry understeer, there is still a little too much from what you would expect of the
car.
2. To increase the fall off of the rear tyre only slightly just to get rid of the snap on power, if
you could slow it down so that it is a progressive movement then that would be the best
way to go.
As I said, I will go into more detail in my next blog, but I was excited and wanted to give
you some brief notes on my first test run.
Ben Collins:
Project Cars Build 564
Just a quick bit of feedback on the 98T which has changed quite a bit in a short space of
time
Braking - for some reason the sexy braking of Build 555 has shifted. I had to dial the brake
pressure to 100% (from 95) and still a max application of the brake pedal no longer locks
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the tyres, whereas it did previously. A lot of the reactivity of the car under braking has
therefore died unless i've missed something 'extra' that needs to be tweaked in the set up.
Going tyre specific
80's F1 Tyre - feels more sluggish on power now and a lot of that wheelspin has
disappeared entirely, perhaps overkill on the tractive ability now? Still when you do lose
traction it breaks away all of a sudden and it's hard to control - i preferred less traction and
being able to find the limit.
The car has some entry oversteer at low speed turn / in which i found interesting and
entertaining. BUT at high speed it lacks some turn in
Grip Test - there's a lot of understeer from turn in to mid corner. The car feels disconnected
like the front tyres don't match the rears.
Realism: *One cool point was down to an element of realism from the FFB over the bumps.
The car is twitchy and hard to control over bumps in a straightline and i quite enjoyed this,
even if it's for the wrong reasons. There are often parts of the track that you have to avoid of if the ride height is low you have to fight your way over bumps. I like seeing this creep
into the sim so if there's a way to engineer it then it gets my vote!
Default Tyre: i found this differed from the other two tyres.
Unlike the 80's F1 you can't enter a corner and brake whilst steering or else it spins, whereas
the 80's F1 car has some support and will understeer if you are going a bit too quick or
braking on the way in. Could there be some middle ground ?
Other than the brake & steer issue the default felt more natural to drive.
Andrew Weber:
Ben, when you get a chance could you give the FC a go? That is the car on the forefront
of "slicks" development at the moment.
Looking forward to your feedback. Thanks.
Casey Ringley:
Both Racers - V8 and L4 - are also using the Formula C tire and are quite well-tuned at this
point. Give all three attention in your next session. I think we'll hold off any more changes to
the Lotus while still learning things on the FC tire.
btw - You did fall for a bit of test session hysteresis placebo there. J The default tire o the
Lotus 98T is the 80s F1 slick. I agree the final tire is probably somewhere between the two
current tests with some more progressive behavoir at the limit. Development of the FC tire
should be a big help in getting there.
Andrew Weber:
Also, when testing the FC, test both the "A" and the "B" tire. I already expect that you will
prefer the "A", but this is not really a competition between "A" and "B". Feedback on "B" too,
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in spite of it being less bitey, might provide even more insight. Don't worry about testing the
"white" option. That is there mainly because I did not want to pull the rug out from some
other cars that share the F3 tire.
Ben Collins:
CASEY sent me this message earlier: “This week, there are some significant refinements
done to the Racer V8 (Radical SR8), Ariel Atom 300 and some interesting tire developments
for the Formula C”
You can say that again! Some exciting progress
Here’s my latest thoughts on this week’s build, starting with the good news and my new
favourite machine on Project CARS:
Formula C
The FC is absolutely superb. If you want to know what it feels like to drive a Formula
Vauxhall Lotus (which no longer exists) crossed with a Formula Renault 2000, then take this
baby out for a spin.
DEFAULT TYRE
Braking: plenty of feedback, very driveable – it could possibly benefit from a fraction more
initial braking ‘bite’ but it’s great. I set my brake bias to 55% which turned out to be
important on other tyres.
Trail braking: this tyre supports any effort to trail brake and steer into the corner – bravo.
Love it.
Turn / In: its good, but I would love even more turning POWER, so that you could potentially
make the car oversteer if you turn too quickly or at too high a speed (*see notes on the
Ariel / FA / and WHITE Tyre below). The car does twitch slightly on turn/in when close to the
limit which is a major bonus
Power: this is the sexy part. As you squeeze the throttle, this transitions beautifully from
u/steer to oversteer and balances – you can feel the limit and there are no nasty ‘kill you
quick’ spins like in the FA.
Sound: this is important. The engine sounds right and crucially you can HEAR wheelspin,
and tyre squeal when you break rear traction. The Kart and the FA don’t do this and it’s
their loss – to the gain of the FC – LOVE IT!
F3 Slick / Flash. Yikes. For some reason my car got the shakes and the whole body was
shaking down the straights so I parked it but noticed that I had to dial the brake bias to
70% to prevent the rears locking. This tyre has no rear grip or stability.
F3 Slick / Match – major front ploughing and understeer. I couldn’t note a redeeming
feature so I parked it before my mouse became embedded in the monitor.
F3 Slick / White – yeee haaw. Another great tyre. Feels like less grip than the default but it
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still works great.
Braking: I reverted to 55% brake bias because the fronts were slippery at 70%.
Power: the progressive sliding on this tyre is really excellent. You can balance the platform
using the throttle and flick the car out of corners. As with the default it might just benefit
from feeling a bit stiffer, with slightly more aggressive twitches (not ones that make you
spin, they just make you work the wheel a little faster and harder)
Braking: again excellent with great feedback
Trail Braking: point of difference with this tyre is that it has slightly less rear stability when
braking and steering into a corner, and I loved that.
Bearing in mind that we detest the phenomenon when the car auto-rotates if you
combine braking and steering – but the White tyre causes the rear to float progressively
and is the first tyre model I’ve driven on PCARS to pull it off. Great job.
Set-up: I tweaked 2 notches more rear wing on to see if I could tone down the oversteer as
I braked into a tight, fast cambered right at Imola and it worked precisely as it should. I lost
a little turn in elsewhere but was very pleased to see a set up change working.
BRAVO!
Formula A
By contrast to the FC the FA has some quite frustrating issues at the moment
1. If you touch an apex kerb under load with power you spin – end of. It shouldn’t make
the rears spin like this
2. As you gradually squeeze the throttle on the FA there’s no way of telling the limit and
you just spin – there’s no engine note, bounce from the tyre or tyre noise to guide you that
you are exceeding the limit either
Caterham R500
Handling: The car has massive entry understeer from turn/in to mid corner which is
unrealistic as the RL model has excellent sharp bite and rotates around the engine
mounted in the front. I feel we have gone backwards with the Caterham.
Braking: The car will spin if you combine braking & steering and linked to this is some of the
lift off oversteer in slower corners. There’s not nearly enough stopping power from the
brakes and there needs to by a dynamic shift in handling. *see below on the Ariel
Ariel Atom 300
Delighted to report that we have a delight in the making here! This car highlights the true
potential of the Sim because like the FC it breaks new ground on certain handling features.
Turn In: this is the first car on the Sim with REAL turn in power. You can spin it if you turn the
wheel too quickly. The beauty is that you feel totally connected to the steering, it is
responsive and you can gauge how much and at what speed to enter a corner with the
steering. (*see below re tyre pressures)
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Power: climbing onto the power is fantastic with this car and like RL the car is pretty prone
to sliding on the gas – but it’s controllable and you can feel the limit. A bit like the FC, I
would love to see faster / catchable twitches to make you work harder but not at the
expense of driveability – which the 300 has in abundance.
Braking: it falls down slightly on the lack of braking grip but once I dialled into the fact that I
couldn’t brake so late it wasn’t a problem.
Trail braking: it struggles with this sadly. In fact any deceleration on entry to the corner
really upsets the rear and it wants to spin. It would be great to have the positives of this car
and remove the instability of braking and steering.
Graphics: superb and feels like you’re driving the real thing. Especially with the building
whine from the engine which is unique to Atom – where do you guys find the time to
replicate this stuff..?!
V8 Racer RS
This car closely resembles the CN / Speed Series car I’ve been testing for TIGA this season
so it’s great to see this finding its feet on the Sim.
Default tyre
General: steering felt vague and made the car feel too lazy and soft. Too much entry
u/steer – really this car should drive more like the FC but with more power and a little more
downforce.
On Flash tyre the o/steer was bad. It ploughed on Match (like the FC) and wasn’t
improved on White.
Audi DTM
Still loving the excellent cockpit and the tight engine tones in this car. Here’s why I still really
rate this car on PCARS
Turn In: the steering response is excellent with really good turning power on entry to the
corner, you can put it where you want. In my case that means all over the kerbs
Kerbs: the DTM nails the kerbs smartly and feels /sounds very realistic. Perhaps we could
even build in a little more snappy bounce over some of the bigger kerbs.
Power: there’s good recoverability on the throttle with the DTM, it’s forgiving.
Braking: I had to adjust the brake bias forward and then the car had this superb float from
the rear under braking whilst steering. This stopped me spinning on corner entry & I’m glad
to see that simple set up changes like this react realistically. The FC shares this feel but it’s
different.
Ford Focus RS
A quick drive in this one because I’ve just been hammering the Focus RS in Poland. Buy the
new Fiesta RS instead BTW, it’s cheaper and far better.
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In the sim the Focus has a few flaws
1. You can’t brake & steer or else it spins
2. Handling felt sluggish. The body roll was ok but the handling also felt slower than reality
which is more crisp
3. Very low overall front grip, all the time. In reality the Focus has great front grip until you
accelerate and then you get a surge of power understeer as the torque of the engine
goes beserk mid corner
4. Per #3 – it needs more power mid range
5. Liked the movement and bounce in the suspension
Kart 250E
Couldn’t resist taking this baby for a spin! This was also my first trip around Donington which
has been really well replicated. If I spend some more time there on the Sim I can fire across
some additional on the bumps – but only if you let me hit more kerbs without being
penalised! C’mon Casey help me out !! :D
Sound: superb engine note
Graphics / body roll: it all seems to roll too slowly. The real thing is super sharp, tight and
darty.
Handling: I struggled to dial into the high speed oversteer or to predict when and why it
was happening. The 250 has considerable downforce for its size and I wouldn’t expect it to
lose traction the way it does without a reason – and there’s no sound of wheelspin when it
breaks away suddenly. It’s too loose
Turn In: In general the Kart felt too unstable but at the same time if you rock up at a corner
and swing the wheel like a chimpanzee throwing poo at a German tourist, it won’t
oversteer. The Kart could take a leaf out of the Ariel Atom 300’s book on this point
Braking: when you lock the tyres the engine note should cut and the dead sounds can
then help indicate the limit. The lock ups should be more aggressive IE short sharp locks
that grab a wheel and release it just as fast. Currently it locks and release slowly like a big
car.
OTHER GENERAL POINTS OF INTEREST
BRAKE MAPPING – what is it and what does it do? I played with it on various machines and
could not notice any difference so I’m confused. Nothing new there.
Kerbs Generally
Still too many lost laps when you use the track and take in some grass. Would love to see
this feature paired back or removed.
Set up changes
I made some extreme changes to the FA including zero tyre pressure with softest possible
suspension settings. The result was interesting in that it gave me more feeling from the
steering, it felt more connected to the car and went where I wanted it to go. Other than
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that it was hopeless!
Great work on the Formula C and I look forward to seeing where this might take us with the
big dogs like the FA and the 98T! Have a great weekend everyone and remember: drive
fast.
PS Ryan Caines please post your 98T setup!!
Andrew Weber:
You are a version behind I think. But you did get on what is "B", because Match becomes
"B" in the next version. So when you update, you probably do not need to bother with "B".
Just "A". And compare to "white" which is still in there, and is I think the "default" from the
version you tested.
And I clearly need to revisit what was default in the version you tested, because that
sounds good. There are some things about "A" and that default that are very similar, and
some that are very different. This should be a good comparison. Looking forward to it.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is going to be based on Build 570 and is about the Racer V8 with the new F3
Slick – A Tyre.
Racer V8
All of my testing with this car has been at Dubai GP both in the CPFT Time Trial event, as
well as Free Practice Mode
So some of you may already have seen the small post I did at the end of last week about
this car, saying how good it is and the pros and cons about it HERE. To me, this car feels
great in terms of stability and is a lot more predictable than the FC on the same tyre. I think
so far, this car is my favourite due to the stability and realism it gives. The general balance is
very good with plenty of grip on the rear and plenty of traction. These cars IRL have a lot of
downforce and the corner speeds they produce are crazy and we can really start to feel
the sense of speed that this car has in the game, which is a massive positive.
Setup
What is very impressive with this car is how the small changes, or any change to the setup
of the car, changes the feeling and balance dramatically. Downforce changes are the
most noticeable both on front and rear with each value on the rear setting making a real
difference stability wise. 1 to 2 on the rear is very noticeable, as well as 0 to 1, each value
makes a very significant difference, which is what I like most, as it makes car setup key to
being fast on the game and as well as that, it shows that it is realistic!
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The setup I found to be the quickest over one flying lap was to set the downforce on the
rear as low as possible and use the mechanical grip of the car to carry you through the
corner. With this car, the low downforce puts the car on a knifes edge throughout the lap,
which means that I would never have the car set up like this IRL, but the way it reacts with
the low downforce setting is still realistic.
F3 Slick – A
So I have done quite a lot of laps with this tyre, both with the FC and the Racer V8. The
more laps I drove with the Racer V8, the more I felt that the negative aspects of this tyre on
the FC car worked the complete opposite and was a positive to this car. With the FC, the
lack of traction when the tyre is under load, I felt was quite unrealistic as it felt like you were
unable to lean on the tyre and get on the power without the outside of the tyre feeling like
it was ice cold, this then caused the tyre to become unpredictable and could only get a
decent amount of traction when the car was completely straight as it used the middle part
of the tyre.
This was not the case with the Racer V8 as the downforce produced by the rear wing and
all of the other components on the car producing aero, made the rear sit very well through
both high and low speed corners, this means that if the tyre had more grip under load on
exit, then traction would be too high making the car too easy to drive, whereas at the
moment, the way the rear tyre behaves in terms of grip when under load, creates
unpredictability on power with low downforce, which is correct meaning that you have to
be careful on power as it will ‘bite’ you if you are too aggressive. As the downforce setup
increases, the traction increases in the correct way, but this stops rotation and creates
more understeer, which is what this tyre has a lot of at the moment. More initial turn in bite
is needed to make the tyre great for me, I personally would not add a lot of initial bite, but
just enough to strop the initial laziness, the car still needs to have the hint of understeer mid
corner to make it realistic.
Tyre Temperature/Warm-up Faze
So as Casey requested in his testing notes, I did some tyre temperature testing using Free
Practice Mode. I was testing by completing one warm-up lap and then a flying lap to see
how well the car got up to temperature and how it reacted when being pushed.
Out Lap
Tyre Temp at start of Lap: 80ºF
The feeling of the car whilst trying to get the tyres up to temperature is really impressive, at
the start of the lap; the car is very twitchy and moves around a lot, which is how it should
be with minimal traction and a lot of lazy understeer. What I found was most impressive,
was the feeling of certain aspects of the car starting to grip up throughout the lap, you can
start to feel the fronts working and coming up to temperature, as well as feeling the rear
starting to grip up with an increase of traction, overall stability was improving by the end of
Sector Two. What I did notice was that, grip under braking was not really affected, as at
the end of the back straight at the end of Sector One at Dubai GP, I was able to brake at
the same point as I have been when I am on a flying lap etc., this should not be the case
as braking distances should be increased during the cold tyre faze.
During the out lap, the ability to light up the rear tyres by doing a burnout is impossible due
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the basic traction created by the car and rear tyres, this to me is very unrealistic, as
burnouts on stone cold tyres are used to help generate heat and are very easy to do
especially in the cold tyre window. At the moment, there is no lack of traction when the
car is in a straight line making it hard to create wheel spin and only breaks traction through
or on exit of a corner. I personally feel that rear traction should be decreased when the
tyre is in full contact with the circuit, allowing you to be able to spin the rear tyres up to
generate heat, but as the lap goes on, wheel spin becomes less frequent and harder to
produce.
Tyre Temp at end of Lap: 173ºF
Flying Lap
Tyre Temp at start of Lap: 173ºF
As I started my flying lap, the tyres were not completely up to optimum temperature, which
is to be expected with lazy entry and mid-corner understeer, together with a slight lack of
traction compared to how they usually are at optimum temperature. Throughout Sector 1,
the rear was a little ‘floaty’ through high speed and under braking when trail braking into
the apex, this to me is very realistic and is very positive. As the lap went on, temperature
started to rise, which I noticed through the feedback I was getting from the car on entry,
mid-corner and traction on exit. At the end of the lap, the time was around about 6-7
tenths of a second off which is about right, as the time would improve for the second lap
easily as the tyres ended up at optimum temperature at the end of the lap.
Tyre temp at end of Flying Lap: 195ºF
Overall, the car is at a really great level and is such a joy to drive. I think that the F3 Slick A is
good for this type of car, with good grip under braking and a little bit of instability on the
outside of the tyre as this is what makes the car move and slide when the tyre is at
optimum temperature. More initial bite is needed for entry and decreased traction is
needed in the early part of the cold tyre faze. I think that it is now all down to the finer
details with this car, I am still struggling with the ‘pendulum affect’ when controlling slides
and oversteer etc. but this is starting to improve as the tyre develops, improving the overall
stability when on the limit. I still feel that the FFB works against my actions and makes the
‘pendulum affect’ worse, but I am not sure if this is due to the game or my wheel.
Fantastic job with this car, I think it is great!
More to come on the Aerial Atom 3 and the new F3 Slick – B Tyre for the Formula C
Stay tuned! J
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Great feedback, as usual.
So, as you noticed, the longitudinal aspects have not been dealt with since the Match
version...I have been mostly working with lateral tuning and general heating. So "A" has the
same longitudinal shortcomings as Match did, which you noticed. Longitudinal is next up
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on the list. The pendulum effect...finding a way to dial that as orthogonally as possible, is
after that. I think this tire is closer than some of the other ones wrt the pendulum, but at this
moment I have not isolated a way to dial it (I have not really tried yet though). My theory is
that lateral damping of the carcass will be that dial.
The "B" is hopefully an incremental improvement on heating, at least for the FC, and should
also start to address low pressure exploits.
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Handling Consultants Feedback – October 2013
OCTOBER 2013
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
This post is going to be based on Build 574 and will include the Caterham SP/300R, with my
thoughts on how the car feels in terms of balance, what could be improved/ changed,
what I did to change the setup etc. and why.
Derby National
Before I go into detail about the car etc. I want to say a big well done to everyone
involved in creating the Derby National Circuit, from the time I drove it a while back to
now, there is a massive improvement both with graphics and the details/characteristics of
the circuit itself.
Caterham SP/300R
General Balance
This car feels very solid and is an absolute pleasure to drive. Compared to the Racer V8,
this car has a lot more mechanical grip, meaning that the car is a lot more planted with a
lot more grip even with low downforce settings. I feel that the general balance of this car is
very similar to the Racer V8, with very good traction and rear stability with a hint of initial
entry understeer. With the car having good mechanical grip, it means that ‘Aero Balance’
plays less of a part with 0 to 1 on rear wing setting producing enough downforce without
losing stability through high speed corners, whereas with the Racer V8, the rear is a lot
more twitchy even on setting number 2 on the rear and even then, a little more grip and
rear downforce is needed for consistency.
With a decent level of mechanical grip, this car is very forgiving with power oversteer, the
car does start to move when power is applied a bit too soon, but has a good amount of
grip at the rear to stop the rear from rotating to the outside of the tyre, where speaking
from experience, the rear tyre of the F3 Slick – A falls off quite quickly as soon as the outside
of the tyre is used. As well as power oversteer being controllable, general slides mid corner
is very controllable too, with the absence of the ‘pendulum affect’, which I have been
experiencing with other cars and feel that this could be down to the mechanical grip of
the car overall. All of these aspects makes the car a lot more consistent over a number of
laps and is a massive improvement for me, as consistency has always been an issue.
Setup
So as some of you guys may have seen, I posted the setup I used for my flying lap in the
CPFT Event. I personally found this car very interesting in terms of how similar it was to the
Racer V8 with what changes I made etc. The thing I have noticed is that when I first drove
the car and started developing my setup, I made a lot of changes but found myself going
completely back to square one and starting again, but this time very close to the default
setup, this to me shows how realistic the game is, as it takes a lot of thought, together with
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‘trial and error’ to get the car where you want it, which mimics real life.
Whilst driving the default setup the car felt very planted and stable, but it did not feel like
the car was set to its full potential due to the entry and mid corner understeer. Traction on
exit was not an issue and so I focused on trying to optimise the mechanical grip whilst using
the lowest downforce setting as possible. From driving the Racer V8, I was experiencing the
same type of understeer on entry and so I turned up the de-acceleration lock as this
helped with many aspects throughout the lap such as, assisting with slowing the car down,
allowing you to brake later and also carry speed into the corner and waiting for the front
to slow down without having to use additional braking to get to the apex. As well as low
speed, high speed into the old hairpin was helped as this assisted the front into the apex,
resulting in early throttle application and a better overall exit.
To further improve/minimise the understeer, I wanted to get the car to rotate mid corner
and so I started to work on opposites, by this I mean, whatever I changed on the front, I did
the complete opposite on the rear to make the front better and the rear less stable mid
corner. I did not really touch the bumps and rebounds, as this already felt good from the
default setup. Stiffening the rear sway bar (anti-roll bar) along with the springs really helped
with rear rotation also. Lastly, I found exiting the last corner difficult due to the bumps, to
help with overall traction over the bumps on exit, I decreased the acceleration lock to
allow for more wheel slip as I felt that the more lock I had, the more it was working against
me.
After a while, I got the car exactly how I wanted it, low downforce with optimisation of the
mechanical grip available.
Testing
I have been testing with the F3 Slick – A tyre both in the CPFT Hot lap event and Free
Practice Mode and have been doing back-to-back tests with them to see what the main
changes in the characteristics are.
CPFT Hot Lap
So as I had already completed the hard work of setting the car up to how I wanted, I did
some long runs with 20L of fuel to see how the car felt. As the run started, the car felt
heavier, which is to be expected with 20L of fuel. General balance was not really affected
as much as I first had thought, but realised that it was mainly mid-corner and exit speeds
that were slower compared to the car having 2L of fuel. If I were being picky, I would say
that the front end was a little lazier compared to the lighter fuel load, but this is how it
should be. Braking was not affected at all, as I was able to brake in the same spot with 20L,
which I think should not be the case, as braking distances should increase with more
weight. I found that the fuel load increase resulted in about 1 second of time loss, which for
me, felt down to mid corner and exit speeds overall.
Free Practice Mode
So I am impressed with how the car evolves over a long run in this mode. From the first out
lap, the tyres are around 85º to 90ºF, which should depend on the air temperature and
weather conditions of the day. The most noticeable characteristic on the out lap is the
understeer and push of the front tyre, this is to be expected and is accurate, but the
increased movement of the rear on cold tyres is only minimal, with no snap oversteer
moments and instead just more progressive slides, this progressive slide is correct for when
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the tyre is starting to get to temperature or when the tyre is at optimum temperature, but
for the first out lap, this should be more lively with the added ability to spin the rear wheels
easy before they start to heat up, once the heat is starting to come up, the ability to spin
the wheels or slide the car should become more difficult, but should still be achievable
when forced.
During a 10 lap stint, the feeling of the tyres heating up is noticeable and positive, but the
car is a little too easy to drive on the first lap, as you are still able to push straight away and
only have to adjust your driving style slightly to suit the tyre temperature. It takes around 3
to 4 laps for the tyres to come up to the correct feeling of temperature, which is correct
with the tyres at around 195ºF, once this temperature has been reached the temperature
continues to increase to a maximum of 240ºF on the front by lap 8, which causes a lot of
understeer and drop off as the tyre overheats.
I raised the tyre pressures to help with the overheat, but felt the changes did not make too
much of a difference in temperature, but did make a difference in the ‘warm up faze’ with
the tyre having less grip under braking, less stability mid corner and less traction on exit on
the out lap. The increased pressure also caused the tyre to take longer to come in, which is
to be expected.
Overall, I feel this car is great, with the grip and stability increasing consistency, which is
very important. There is a little too much grip on the rear, which rules out ‘Aero Balance’
meaning you can run low downforce and still have stability through high speed, this needs
to be improved to where the aero balance affects all 3 corner types (low, medium, high)
depending on what setting you are running. Tyre characteristics especially on the rear
needs to be improved with less grip all round on cold tyres. (AJ explained the situation with
this characteristic HERE, so once he finds a solution to replicate the longitudinal aspect of
the tyre, then this will improve straight away.
This car is really good guys, it is just the finer details yet again that we need to pick up on
and sort, which is the case with a lot of cars at the moment, this is good as we are now at
a great stage with a lot of cars and now just need to fine tweak them. The window of
consistency is very impressive on this car and is the most enjoyable aspect, as long runs
and consistency have been an issue I feel with a lot of cars previously. We now need to
find a solution of taking some grip away from the car, but to still keep the same window of
consistency.
Great job! J
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Last night I checked in a tire (in four flavors...testing another aspect) with a pass at your
two main requests (from previous test). A little more front bite, and the adjustments to the
rear. They are the I, R, S, and M tires.
edit: And thanks again for the thorough testing. Love it.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Great AJ, I will give them all a try and will let you know my feedback,
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Looking forward to testing the changes!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is going to be based on Build 575, the new tyres AJ has been working on in
response to my blog post last week about the Racer V8. The post will include the F3 Slick –
I,M,R and S tyres on the Caterham SP/300R.
So before I go into detail about the tyres etc. I just want to say that it is fantastic to have all
4 tyre compounds/versions so evenly matched to the point that they are all very drivable,
which means that you are able to focus on the finer characteristics of the tyre with a
realistic outlook. I remember a while back when we had compounds tests for the Formula
A and each tyre compound was completely different, to the point where one compound
was undrivable, so it is a great joy to test these compounds, as it has proved to me that the
level we are at now with the physics of tyres that we may not even use are so good, that
we can drive them consistently with no issue.
As each of these new tyre compounds are very close in feeling, it is a lot more difficult to
pick out the faults form one another, you really have to look deep into the characteristics
to find the differences.
With these tyre tests, I have used the same track we drove the car on for the CPFT this
week.
Caterham SP/300R
Track: Derby National
Mode: Free Practice
F3 Slick – I
This tyre is very similar to the F3 Slick – A, it is pretty much identical, but with a tiny bit more
front bite and a little bit more movement on the rear. I find it very consistent to drive and
actually have no issues with it at all; the only reason why I am being picky is because we
are trying to make it as realistic as possible. Personally I feel it still has too much grip on the
rear as it is too forgiving with power oversteer both on cold tyres and when they are at
optimum. On the out lap on cold tyres, this tyre had a lot more front bite than the A tyre,
which did not mimic the front tyre being cold. With the A tyre, you could feel the tyre scrub
and push when it was cold, I would add the same characteristics of tyre A when cold to
this tyre to improve the feeling of the could tyre faze, at the moment it is a little easy to
drive in the cold tyre window. Performance wise, this tyre is near enough the same as the A
tyre and all in all a really easy and nice tyre to drive.
F3 Slick – M
This tyre is really nice, I feel like it has a lot more realism than tyre A and I. On the out lap
when the tyres are cold, there is a good scrub and push as the front tyres try to get to
temperature, which is really nice. The rear for me is looser than tyre I, which is good but I still
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feel there needs to be more of a snap on the first lap with cold tyres if you get on the
power too much or too soon. At the moment, the rear moves more, but then it grips up as
the outside of the tyre is used, which is a little unrealistic as the outside of the tyre should be
the coldest and the most twitchy part for the first lap, whereas it seems to be the warmest
part as the tyres break traction in the middle and then grip up on the outside, I think this
characteristic needs to be reversed so there is more snap in the middle part of the tyre and
then less grip on the outside of the tyre which grips up slightly depending on the corner
speed you are carrying on the first lap. Once the first lap is over with, both inside and
outside of the tyre should start to grip up well.
What I really liked with this tyre compared to tyre ‘I’ was that it took longer to come in, but
it was very realistic as the characteristics of the tyre changed as it heated up. So on lap 1
and 2, the initial entry bite was better, but then it started to push and understeer in the
middle of the corner, but on lap 3 and 4, the entry bite was even better, but the push and
understeer started to decrease and work in your favour, which is really cool.
Overall, this tyre is really nice, it is consistent and more realistic with the change of
characteristics as the tyre starts to warm up. There needs to be more snap and instability
on the rear for the out lap when on ‘stone cold’ tyres that will start to improve as they heat
up and should be ready by lap 4 depending on track conditions and temperatures.
F3 Slick – R
Yet again, another great tyre to drive, I would say that it has the same amount of grip on
the out lap as tyre M, but is even looser on the rear. Once the tyres get to temperature, the
rear stability is increased a little with the ability to still rotate and move more under power,
which is really nice. This tyre caught me out a couple of times by the rear sliding etc. but it
was controllable and added to the overall realistic feeling of the car. Whilst I was driving
the car, I was thinking whether it should be even looser because I am running minimum
rear wing and the mechanical grip is enough that I will never need to have more
downforce.
I would say that the tyre needs to be another step looser to the stage that you can just
about hold on to the car and still be consistent, with the scenario that more rear
downforce/stability would actually be quicker, as at the moment, the car does not move
enough to get your attention, meaning that if I added rear wing to about 4 to 5, I would
have way to much grip overall as the car would never find the limit of the tyre due to the
increased grip and lack of rotation. We need to get to a stage where, regardless of how
much downforce or grip you have; you should still be able to find the fall off of the tyre.
That all being said, this tyre is really good as there is a lot more life and movement from the
tyre together with the increased entry bite. More snap is still needed on cold tyres and the
overall grip on the rear still needs to be decreased but to a stage where you can control
the slides and moments. It may not be quick, but this means you will need to change the
car accordingly, which would be realistic. The feeling of the rear moving progressively
whilst I am able to control it and still be on the limit is what it should be about. I think we are
nearly there with this tyre, but it just needs a bit more instability on the rear on cold and
warm tyres, with a bit more understeer on ‘stone cold tyres’ and with the option of running
more downforce and not having too much grip on the rear or all round.
F3 Slick – S
Another great tyre, personally for me it has a better front entry bite than all of the tyres so
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far, but has a fall off of understeer if you push the tyre to much or go off line, which is great.
There is more rear grip than tyre R but a little less than tyre M. I really felt the rears coming
up to temperature, as they would hop/ slide and grip coming through the old hairpin, but
then stop sliding and hopping as the temperature came up, which is great. I found that it
was mainly high speed corners that the front tyre was better than the others, but slow to
medium would be near enough the same.
Overall, this tyre is good and consistent, but does not really have its own characteristic that
stands out to me. It has a little more front end, which is what I find better, but the front bite
is added to the cold tyre faze, meaning that there is more overall grip on cold tyres
together with more overall grip when the tyres are at optimum temperature compared to
tyre R, where there is less grip both on cold tyres and on warm tyres.
F3 Slick – N (Nic’s Tyre)
So if I were to create an N tyre, it would be a mix of all of the different characteristics in the
other tyre compounds. I would have the initial entry bite of the S Tyre with the cold tyre
understeer of the M Tyre. Rear stability of the R Tyre, but I would like a little less stability than
the current R Tyre, with more snap power oversteer with the outside of the tyre being less
grippy and more twitchy when used whilst warming up with the middle of the tyre being
slippery at first but to come up to temperature quicker than the outside.
I would like the same characteristics in terms of tyre behaviour from cold to optimum as
Tyre M as it starts to change and react differently as it heats up. I would want the tyre to
have less overall grip in the first 2 laps both on front and rear with less stability on lower
downforce settings when the tyre is at optimum. To be easier to find the limit and fall off
point of the tyre regardless of how much grip or downforce you are running. Spinning the
rear wheels to gain temperature without gaining traction straight away would be possible.
I would basically start there and then continue to develop how they react in different air
and track temperatures etc.
Yet again there has been massive improvements all round, we are getting to a level that is
now really hard to pick out the faults, which is what we want. Either one of the above tyres
would be great for a general tyre that gives you a decent amount of grip with the ability to
be consistent, but with the changes I think are needed, the tyres would enhance the
realism.
Good work!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Oh my goodness is that good feedback. This was a hard test, and you are doing it blind.
You have no idea how accurately your feedback is matching up to the differences.
Impressive. And very useful.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Thanks AJ, J
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You are doing a great job yourself and I am glad I can help you with it all!
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is going to be based on Build 584, focussing on the Palmer Jaguar JPLM with
the new F3 Slick – R1 and R2 tyres, as well as the general balance of the car.
So before I go into detail about what I have been testing, I just want to say how awesome
this game is and what a pleasure it is to be a part of this project. I have been explaining/
showing Project Cars to a lot of people and have given them a great tour of the game,
explaining different aspects of the game and the great detail we are going into in creating
the game. I have been using the new F1 2013 game by Codemasters as my comparison to
show how ‘poorly created’ the game is. I think Codemasters have just been lazy in every
possible way in creating it. It seems like they have spent more time creating the animation
videos then they have in developing the physics. I did one qualifying session and then
turned the game off. Project Cars will be in a completely different league, with no one else
going into the amount of accurate detail that we at SMS and WMD are!
Tyre Testing
Circuit: Derby Park National
Mode: Free Practice
I tested the two tyre compounds back to back at Derby National instead of Dubai, this is
because I tested the previous compounds, I,R,M, and S at this circuit also and so I wanted
to get a direct comparison. Both tyres are very evenly matched and so it is even more
difficult to pick them apart. My main criticism for both tyres is the amount of grip that they
produce when they are cold.
F3 Slick – R1
So from last week, as soon as I did an out lap with this tyre, I instantly felt heavy understeer,
which is what I said needed to happen in my previous blog. This characteristic is now
starting to replicate the front tyres being cold. The understeer is very realistic for the first lap
and the change in behaviour as the tyre starts to warm up is really nice too with the tyres
increasing in grip level under braking and on entry lap by lap until they reach optimum
temperature.
I personally feel that the feeling of understeer and the feeling of the front tyres in general
when cold is not an issue anymore, I think we have the cold tyre faze for the front tyres at a
decent level to where we can adjust/ tweak it a little over time. The main issue/ area of
improvement I feel, is the behaviour of the rear tyres, which to me was an improvement
from last week, as now the rear starts to rotate more mid-corner when the tyres are cold,
but they are still too forgiving with too much traction, no wheel spin and not enough
movement/ slide or loss of grip when the outside of the tyre is used.
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The understeer that is present for the first lap and a half when the tyres are cold, is horrible,
this is how it should be, whereas, the rear tyres produce too much grip when cold, which
makes the understeer manageable, meaning that you can drive around the issue. This
should not be the case, as the whole car should feel horrible on the first lap with a smaller
fall-off window, meaning that the tyre moves and snaps more when you lean on it through
or out of a corner. The ‘horrible’ feeling should be caused by oversteer, understeer, lack of
traction, snap oversteer, power oversteer and so on.
Once the tyres are up to temperature, I think the general balance is nice, there is a hint of
understeer on entry and mid-corner, with quite a bit of rotation from the rear tyres,
minimising the understeer and resulting in the overall balance feeling ‘fluid’
F3 Slick – R2
This tyre is very similar to R1 but is my favourite out of the two. This tyre for me has better
overall grip, which has its pros and cons. The cons are that the increase of grip makes the
cold tyre faze more unrealistic with less movement from the rear creating more traction
and stability. The only characteristic that stops you from pushing like you are on a hot lap
straight away is the understeer, which as I said before, I think it is at a decent level and is
not an issue.
The pros is that this tyre has its own characteristics compared to R1 with more overall grip
under braking, more initial entry bite, more stability mid corner as well as more traction on
exit, but also has a dose of R1’s characteristics, which is the entry to mid-corner rotation.
With R1 the rotation is quite slow initially with a longer duration, whereas with R2 the
rotation is quicker, more snappy and lasts for a shorter period of time to when the outside
of the tyre grips up. This I feel is caused by the front tyre having more bite on turn in and the
rear tyre having more grip under load. With the increase in grip all round and the hint of
R1’s characteristics, it makes this tyre a lot more consistent and controllable, both on hot
laps and over long runs.
Overall, as you can see I am very happy with the general behaviour of both tyre
compounds when they are at optimum temperature, but the cold tyre faze in terms or rear
stability for the first lap needs to be improved even further. As I said, my preferred tyre is R2,
with more consistency and grip, but R1 is still a good tyre. Catching and controlling slides is
now not an issue, which is great, but a little less stability on the rear both on power and
mid-corner would also improve the overall realism and feeling of each tyre.
General Balance
So tyres aside, I did some laps on the Default Setup, just to see where the basic balance
was as I know that this car is aimed to be a beginner car, where gamers that do not know
about the engineering side of motorsport do not have to know about it to drive the car at
a decent pace.
I think that the general balance of this car is absolutely fine for gamers who want to just
‘jump-in and drive’, obviously the default is the slowest option in terms of performance
personally, but the default setup produces good front-end grip, with solid mid-corner
stability, which does allow some movement and instability also, which is good as this means
that ‘beginners’ have to learn car control by correcting slides and small movements.
The beauty of this concept is that, as Casey has said in his testing notes, the car is ‘under
adjustable’, which minimises complications, but allows the user to change small areas of
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the car if they want to. I have no concerns with the default and overall balance, I would
keep it as it is. The development of the R1 and R2 tyres will also improve the realism of the
default setup, which will only enhance the experience and will help ‘beginners’ and ‘arrive
and drive’ gamers improve quicker.
Default Setup vs Personal Setup
So last week I was talking with AJ and he said that it would be interesting for him to know
the time lost or gained between using the default setup and my own personal setup. I did
this test at Dubai as this was the chosen track for this week. I ran both setups with 10L of
fuel, which is more than what I normally run for a hot lap.
I did only 1 lap on each setup, so no warm up or anything.
Personal Setup: 1:35.2
Default Setup: 1:36.2
Only 1 second difference between the two setups, which I think is great, personally I think I
could get even closer to my personal setup time with the default setup, but I just wanted to
do 1 lap out of the box just to see what time I could get with each setup without cutting.
Great job guys, keep pushing!
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this is going to be quite a short post, as I only have a few things to say. This post is going
to be based on Build 586 and will forcus on the new F3 Slick - R3 tyre, which I used on the
Palmer Jaguar JPLM.
This morning I did a few laps on the Hot Lap Event at Dubai International and posted quite
a quick time, but to be honest, the track is very unrealistic at the moment due to the
lenient cutting rules, which need to be sorted out over time, so I would not really look into
the fast laps at this circuit, I was purely doing setup runs.
When I did my first run at Dubai, I did not change setup and felt quite a bit of understeer
compared to when I last did some laps in the Hot Lap Event at Dubai at the start of the
week. It was not until I went to my setup screen and found that I was using the R3 slick, I
changed back to R2 for a few laps and instantly felt an increase in grip level.
Palmer Jaguar JPLM - F3 Slick R3
I know Time Trial and Hot Lap Events do not give realistic feedback results, so I moved to
Derby Park National using Free Practice Mode, as this has been the track I have been using
to test all of the tyre compounds this week.
So, I planned to do a run of 6 to 10 laps with 10L fuel and at the end, I found myself
saying.....'These Tyres are Mega!' I am really impressed with this tyre and I think AJ has done
a great job in creating this tyre based on mine and everyone else's feedback from this
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week. In this run, I aimed to analyse the behaviour of the tyre during the cold tyre faze,
how long they took to come up to temperature and whether the increase in tyre
temperature gave a realistic feeling of grip level increase.
OutLap
The outlap was the most realistic outlap I have had this week, with a lot of understeer
throughout the lap, but now with the lack of rear stability through the corner and lack of
traction when you get on the power. I felt that the outside of the tyre on rear had a lot less
stability and grip when used, which made the rear feel a lot more unstable and more
realistic in this faze.
Lap 2 felt very similar to the outlap with the same around of understeer, but increased
stability and traction on the rear as they started to warm up. Although this lap felt similar,
the front tyres started to improve slightly at the end of sector 2 and carried on improving as
the laps went on.
By lap 3, the rear tyres were near enough at temperature, but not at optimum, which took
another lap or so. As i was going through the run in the early stages, I felt that it was the
understeer of the front tyres that were letting the overall balance down, but as I got to lap
6, the front tyres were pretty much at optimum and started working fantastically, with
increased grip under braking, improved initial entry bite and improved grip mid-corner. The
rear tyres felt great, with improved traction from the cold tyre faze, but not too much,
which was nice. The overall balance of the tyres when at optimum temperature was great,
with the mid-corner rotation and grip-up feeling, together with all of the other
characteristics of the R1 and R2 tyres was great.
Due to the rear tyres feeling like they have less stability on the outside of the tyre, it
increased realism through high and low speed corners with the rear wanting to move and
'float' but not to the extent where it is uncontrollable and snappy. Out of slow speed
corners, the traction was a lot less then previous, which means you have to think before
you plant your foot on the throttle, making you use your head more and be smoother with
throttle application. This to me was a fantastic step forward, because this made me feel
that I would need a little more downforce on the rear if I was to set the car up more
consistently, which is a lot more realistic than before.
Overall/Changes
Changes
The changes/ improvements that I would make to this tyre are very minimal.
The first change would be the time it takes for the front tyres to come up to temperature,
as it was not until lap 6 that the tyres became good, whereas because the wheather in
Free Practice mode looks hot and nice, it should only take around 4 laps for the fronts to
come in. The rears came in by lap 4, which was good, but then you have to spend another
3 laps with increased understeer, waiting for the tyres to come in.
@AJ: Will we get to a stage where the length of the cold tyre faze and how long the tyres
take to come in, depend on the track temperature? In other words, will track temperature
be added to the game and will it play a factor in tyre temperatures?
The reason I ask this is, the time it takes tyres to warm up, purely depends on the track
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conditions. In the winter and really cold conditions, the cold tyre faze is terrible, with
constant snap and zero grip, and takes 10 laps at some tracks for the tyres to come in/get
to temperature. I would say for Pcars, 4 laps at each circuit in warm conditions should be
the time for the tyres to grip up and get to temperature, with an added 3 to 4 laps for cold
conditions. In todays case with the way the weather is set in Free Practice Mode, using the
R3 at Derby National, 4 laps should be the maximum.
The second change/ improvement I would make, would be to decrease the grip available
in the middle of the tyre in the cold tyre faze, the middle of the tyre has less grip than
before meaning you can spin the rear wheels from a standstill, but only slightly. It is still too
safe in the middle of the tyre, as the lack of stability and traction only happens when the
outside of the tyre is used. I would go one more step in decreasing the grip in the middle of
the tyre so that it spins and loses traction easier, but to come up to temperature at the
same rate as the outside of the tyre. (The middle should come up a little quicker, but this is
only because I am being picky! :P)
If I was being super picky, I would also say that the front tyre needs a tiny bit more initial
bite and grip mid-corner, but this is not too much of a big deal.
Overall
I think this tyre is the most realistic tyre we have had so far in Pcars and has improved
greatly. If the above changes were made only slightly, then this tyre is good to go!
Mega! Well done guys
Nic
Ian Bell:
I don't say this often enough but great work as usual Nic.
Andrew Weber:
Yes, great feedback as usual.
The heat solve already includes the road temperature, but to be honest, my use of our
heating model on this tire right now is very simple...just good enough to work on the rest of
the tire. So, for example, the effect of the road temperature on the heating of the tire is
very probably off. Maybe way off.
The front tire bite and grip changes should be readily possible.
The tricky one is going to be the cold phase behavioral adjustments. I think I know what
needs to happen there, but I have to implement and expose a dial(s) for it. The rubber is
stiffer when it is cold (and softer hot), and I am just using one of several published
equations to make that stiffness adjustment. All of the equations for this are
approximations. It sounds like we need some control over this curve to hit behavioral
targets like this.
Ben Collins:
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Project Cars 23.10.13
This is a fairly brief update on some recent testing in the Formula A which seems to have
undergone some interesting changes. I’m looking forward to stopping by the Studio
tomorrow and will glean as much gen and gossip as possible about PCARS for posting !!
Formula A
Braking: phenomenal feel and I was using 68% front brake but this was locking the fronts
too much on the recent updates. I switched to 61% which oddly didn’t lock the rears but I
found it harder to gauge the limit and felt I had a little less stopping power. That was
strange but it still drove really well.
The great part of the FA package is that you can brake all the way into the corner without
losing rear stability (something that is still lacking in the current edition of the 98T sadly). The
FA does this extremely well
Turn in: is bang on. You can put the car where you want it and feel a lot of control
Where the FA still falls down in my view is on traction, which is too aggressive. There’s been
a big improvement in how it handles a kerb with regards to lighting up the rears. The issue
remains that when you drive out of the corner with some steering and throttle, the rear
either doesn’t slide at all or it breaks traction so quickly that you spin – especially out of
slow corners. At high speed the performance is much, much better.
It would be great if we could give the cars more grip when they are sliding to try and
alleviate some of this.
This is probably the shortest ever post but It’s been a frantic week of filming a very strange
looking car for “Secret Service” and I’m saving my thoughts on the Formula B and the 98T
until I’ve met with the studio to get their latest.
Ben Collins:
Project Cars IMRS and AB Tyre Testing
28.10.13
Location: Laguna Seca / Monterey
First off my apologies for the radio silence. I’ve just finished a night shoot in London driving a
very peculiar car for a new film called Secret Service and this has made my work patterns
a bit like Dracula. I look pretty pale too..
This tyre test was really fun and helped me to gauge the thought process of the
development team, or at least it left me with the impression that I could read their minds..
Let’s see what they make of my feedback first, but it seemed to me that they ran through
the test process of the I,M,R & S compounds and produced two tyres that were born out of
the other four, then christened them: A and B.
From A and B I think you either like one style or another, and I’m going to state my case for
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the one I prefer. So here we go..
Laguna Seca – great choice of track for this test. I haven’t raced there since 1999 in Indy
Lights and the sim brought it all back to me, right down to the hellish-to-get-right first
corner, to the blind corners that shoot you uphill, the corkscrew of course and the fast high
G sweepers that send you to the last corner. We used to pull over 3.5G through that
section in Indy Lights and I don’t mind admitting that every lap around that place in a high
downforce car was like doing a round with Mike Tyson.
The steering was so heavy and with those bumps wearing away at your tendons with every
pulse through the steering, it was one hell of a challenge. Those bumps are beautifully
replicated on the PCARS sim and it’s awesome.
A note on the Bumps – I would turn the volume up even slightly more on these, they really
rock your world in RL at the fast sweepers following corkscrew.
Formula C. This is one of my all time favourites on the Sim. The delicate power and braking
makes it a superbly responsive test mule and I’m pleased that it retains its best traits whilst
the tyre testing alters the handling.
One general observation of the Formula C was that I was unable to spin the car around on
the power doing a J-Turn and out of slow corners it seemed to be spinning the inside wheel
! I’m not sure if that is engineered but in RL you could spin the car round on the power and
they wouldn’t normally spin one wheel anything like as much as this.
TYRE COMPOUNDS
F3 Slick “I”
The car felt good “straight out of the pit lane” which is to say it felt natural.
Braking: I had to switch the bias from 55% front to 61% to prevent rear locking. Brake lock
ups felt quite slow but controllable (In general I ended up running around 65% on later
compounds)
Braking and entering: I found the car was unstable under heavy braking into some of the
medium speed corners and wanted to rotate – especially at Turn 2.
The general balance and transition from u/steer to o/steer felt really good and that was a
major relief after some of my recent experiences in other model. The FC feels very natural
and on this compound I felt that the initial turn / in gave you instant feel of the grip
available – it would give the rear a kick and that was enough warning to tell me the limit
‘out of the box’. No spinning required, but you have to be smooth with the steering wheel –
this is the place we want to be.
The gentle transition from front sliding to rear sliding is a breakthrough and really important
for other models (such as the Formula A)
With “I” I felt the car was twitchy at the rear off throttle on corner entry when carrying
speed to the apex and I really liked that because that’s real life. The first comment I made
in my notes before trying the other comments was that the rear should be even more
twitchy at the rear, and that during those small slides the car should still have grip rather
than losing so much lateral stability just because the rear end is “free”.
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Balance: the rear end was a little lazy as per my note above and as a result I found myself
exiting corners in the middle of the road quite a bit having dealt with a prolonged rear end
slide. I would prefer more aggressive twitches and warning signals that you can wrestle
and deal with more instantly, driving by the seat of your pants.
7/10
And then as if by magic…
F3 Slick “M”
Amusing note: I cut the pit lane and went through the cones to get on track faster and
created a new sport in the process: cone punting. My first volley punted the cone so high
into the sky that it followed me into the second corner before landing. It was clearly
beginners luck because I’ve not replicated it since but will of course continue my new role
as ‘Conan the Barbarian’.
Back to business..
Twitchy: the M tyre delivers more of the fast twitching rear response that I love. I instantly
bonded with this tyre and started hustling the car on the gas pedal, driving it naturally and
attacking the corners with a smile on my face. Great work !!!!
The rear was generally looser but these were small graduated slides rather than protracted,
long, tedious slides that go on forever. As a result the car felt a lot more precise and
driveable on the throttle and I stopped coming out of corners in the middle of the road.
You have to work the wheel and the throttle harder on this tyre, which is great, it seemed
to have slightly less grip too. Oddly though I felt this tyre had less of the problem that “I”
had in terms of braking and entering, but like “M” if you left foot brake it will want to start
sliding, but I did improve at this.
In terms of braking grip I felt that M had slightly more than I and that is probably why I
noticed an improvement on braking and entering.
8/10
F3 Slick “R”
Yuk.
The front end felt wooden and lacked grip, leading to u/steer in medium speed corners
and it was hard to place the car with any confidence that it would go where you pointed
it, or stay there!
I found myself trying to break the u/steer using the throttle and then struggling around the
corner in a sequence of ragged, machine like mini drifts.
Ironically I found that despite the understeer level that the rear was also unstable on low
speed turn in.
The transition from u/steer to o/steer was lumpy rather than smooth as it should be, it felt
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computerised, inaccurate and lacked the real life flow that you would expect, certainly
compared to M.
On traction: the car is hard to control. When you break traction it is a major event and the
rear really swings round – and good luck catching it before you pebble dash the side of
your face with gravel. Nasty.
Braking was a redeeming feature. I felt this tyre had more braking grip and I could brake
deeper and quite a bit later.
* NB This compound did also have the ‘braking and entering’ oversteer issue at Turn 2 but
not as much, fuelling my conclusion that this rear tyre instability is related to braking grip
and how the sim reads this on the rear tyres. I have to play the braking bias to improve this
but really the sim has a habit of over-reacting to braking forces on the rear tyres and
registering this with oversteer.
Sidenote: I exited wide of Turn 1 and drove over the exit kerb, and the sim stuck me on my
roof. I took this as my cue to move on.
6/10
F3 Slick “S”
Immediately the car felt more pointy and responsive at the front end. The nose darted in
the direction I wanted and I felt joined to the car before I even left the pit lane.
The front end on S is fantastic. It feels light but it has feedback and it really registers your
every input.
In general it seemed to have more front end grip which always feels good. As a result it
went through the Corkscrew at a rate of knots not possible on the previous tyres. So the
minimum speeds were higher everywhere.
Braking: like R this tyre seemed to have heightened braking grip. As a result I had to move
the brake bias to 70% front in order to balance the rear when braking and entering. It
helped that side of things but then what you get under braking is that you lose a lot of grip
when you lock the front tyres..
Immediately more comfortable, natural and the easiest to drive of the group.
BUT – when you break traction you go into these long slow slides which I find quite boring. I
much preferred the sharper choppier slides that you experience with “M”.
7.5/10
SUMMARY
A marriage of the front tyre from “S” with the rear tyre of “M” would seem to be ideal. S has
the most accurate steering of all the compounds and enables the most precise cornering
as a result, while M delivers realistic traction and the ability to balance traction on the
throttle.
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Moving on. In hindsight it seemed that at this point the team took two of the major themes
from the above compounds and married them to create A & B.
F3 Slick “A”
Braking: I reverted to 65% front brake bias as this tyre seemed to have a more even spread
of grip front to rear
Car felt good, easy to drive, well balanced but not as accurate or good at the front as the
“S” compound for instance. And the traction felt lazy with big long powerslides.
For me this compound illustrates the route of higher grip with controllable, but rather dull,
slides on the limit.
F3 Slick “B”
By contrast this tyre is alive and I love it. If I had to place a bet, I imagine that this B tyre is
derived from a combination of S & M – no pun intended, although the result is pretty saucy.
There’s tons of feedback through the wheel over the bumps, the steering is positive and
you can feel your way around the track really well. It might be fraction less precise in
steering than “S” but hard to tell. Perhaps it has a little less mid corner grip and “S”.
The rear has faster more aggressive mini slides that you can control and the combination is
excellent.
The B tyre is superbly balanced and I could drive it all day long.
Braking: Perhaps it’s a bit unforgiving when you lock up under braking – I feel you lose a lot
of grip under locking with this tyre, so you resort to stopping well within your means and
wondering if you could have braked later, or you overcook the goose and skid wide.
Conclusion
I went back to what I thought was my favourite tyre in “M” and compared it to “B”. M felt
slightly more primitive and less balanced by comparison because I think I think that B has a
better feel at the front end, giving it a beautiful transition from understeer to oversteer.
From my seat, B is the best.
(Query: This test left me wondering if the extra front end grip on B might be the cause of
the loss of grip under braking when you lock up. IE you have more grip, but that grip falls
off a cliff if you lock the fronts.. ? The weird thing is that I am guessing that the Dev team
used the front tyres from R but I didn’t notice the locking issue quite as strongly there.. so
maybe I will do some more running but would love to know the secrets in the sauce so
maybe Casey or AJ will let us know what they did?!!?!)
GREAT JOB guys – and the open question is – do you guys prefer driving on the A tyre with
the big long slides or the harder ride of the B tyre…? Cast your vote.
Now I’m going to read everyone else’s posts on this as I managed to keep sterile!
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Andrew Weber:
"If I had to place a bet, I imagine that this B tyre is derived from a combination of S & M –
no pun intended, although the result is pretty saucy."
Close, but the other way around sorta. B is sort of a parent of S & M. S & M (and I & R) are
part of a focused test on which way to go with the underlying damping model. From there
we now have the r1, r2, and r3 tires derived from the feedback. B is indeed the strongest
parent of the baseline series (r1, r2, and r3). From your feedback I can already guess which
of r1, r2, and r3 you'll like better -- but I won't say. J Hopefully you can re-update and get
to that soon, so I can roll your feedback into r4, which I am behind on (due to Vintage -which is helping the overall model more than I expected).
Ben Collins:
Fantastic thank you - will get into the chair to test the new models. It really helps to hear
how the different tyres were 'born'.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So I am leaving for India and Abu Dhabi RIGHT NOW! (typing this post on my laptop in the
car) as I am going to watch Lewis, but before I leave, I just want to do a quick post about
the new Default Setup on the Palmer Jaguar JPLM.
Having spoken to Casey last week, we decided to create a Default Setup that was a mix
between my personal setup, which is HERE and parts of the previous Default Setup from last
week.
Last Week
Last week I felt that the Default was very planted, but too planted to the point that the
setup really did not maximise the cars potential. With this car, I have driven it quite a lot
and have really noticed that mid corner rotation is key to minimise the understeer to get
the car to the apex. My personal setup is very on the limit and is purley set up for hot laps,
although I am sure that it would also be great on long runs.
This week
So, as I was just leaving for the airport, I did a few hot laps on this weeks Default to get a
feeling of how it is and whether overall performance has been improved. Overall balance
was not an issue last week as I thought it was great, but I felt that the Default needed to be
improved purely for lap time, as developing a strong Default for beginners and gamers
who do not want to set the car up or do not understand the engineering side, can still
produce competitive times agiainst the hardcore simmers J.
Last Weeks Laptime: 1:36.2
This Weeks Lap time: 1:35.9
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So as you can see, this week I found 3 tenths in the Default Setup from last weeks one and I
feel that it is purley down to the front-end being more positive. There is more downforce on
the rear compared to my personal setup and this improves braking power as well as mid
corner stability, which is what I feel is really making the car feel consistent. The only issue
with the rear being set at 2 is that, it stops mid-corner rotation, causing more understeer
which then means that you have to be a lot more patient before you get on the power.
With the mid-corner rotation being less affective this increased understeer. Compared to
my personal setup, I also noticed that the De-acceleration diff lock was a lot less, which
meant that 'Free Wheeling' was a lot faster off power. With the diff lock set to a higher
value (more lock) it helps slow the car down and makes the car point and stop more at
the apex.
Changes
Personally, I feel that the car feels very nice for a Default Setup and is very stable and
forgiving. I feel that the understeer needs to be minimised, which could be helped by
lossining the rear or locking the 'De-Acc Diff" more. One thing I noticed throughout all of my
testing with this car, is how affective the tyre pressures were, with too low or too high
costing you to around 1.5 secs a lap. Having set the tyre pressures to 1.20 all round on my
personal setup, I think this would be the way to go, but as we start to bring in tyre wear and
tyre degradation, this pressure may cause some issues in the long term.
@Casey/@AJ: Is tyre wear and tyre degradation being developed? When will this be ready
to start testing and developing?
Overall, this car is just great now regardless of the different setups, with R3, the car is very
realsitic and is the best, but with R1 and R2 the car is also very enjoyable. With this weeks
Default Setup I think the car is really good for a start class before the proper protorypes, I
would just try and get rid of a little bit of that understeer.
If we keep the Setup as it is, then I think it is not an issue as this car is a great training tool for
setup and feeling for those who want to learn.
As i said, I am in the car writing this post on my laptop and will be back in the UK on
Tuesday November 4th, I am hoping to have WiFi whilst I am away, so I will be keeping an
eye on development and look forward to getting straight back to work on the new
changes when I get back!
See you guys in about a week and a half!
P.S. I thought you guys might like to see a picture of me writing this post on my laptop in the
car on my way to the airport
Andrew Weber:
I think nailing heat has to come before wear and degradation, since effective wear rates
change with temperature. Wear and degradation are implemented, but they are not
dialed in at all on these tires.
r4 will have some heating changes, but I'm a little behind on getting r4 done since I dug
deeper into Vintage this week than I had intended.
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So I am sitting at Mercedes at the circuit. I have been in and around the garage all
weekend so far for mental reference to help with Pcars.
I just spoke to one of the engineers and asked him what the optimum operating
temperature of the tyres were today after Free Practice. He told me that 130C was the
optimum window with 110C being too cold and 150C being the overheating window
where the tyres fall off in terms of grip level.
From experience with Pcars we use Degrees F with the optimum window of performance
being 190F. 190F is around 87C, which would be inaccurate for an F1 tyre. I think our
current temperatures for the F3 slick etc are correct, but for temperatures of the Formula A,
we need to start seeing 266F as optimum, 230F as they start to come up and 302F being
the overheating window with a feeling of drop off.
Anyway just wanted to give you guys some info, AJ and Casey may have already known
this.
Thanks guys.
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So as of today, I have been a part of Project Cars for one year and I just wanted to say
what an honour it as been for me to work with you all on what I think will be the best
Motorsport Simulation game to hit the shelves once we have released it.
I also wanted to ask you all what your overall thoughts are about my involvement in Pcars
over the past year and whether you all have seen an improvement to the game, as well as
the project as a whole since I have been around.
It would be great if you could all outline the Pros and Cons of my involvement so far and
how you guys would like to see me improve as the Project progresses.
The information you all give, is taken on board and will help me improve to be even more
helpful with the Project going forward.
Thanks again guys, its been a real pleasure.
Let's keep pushing!
Nic J
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NOVEMBER 2013
Ben Collins:
Project Cars Nov 4th
Formula C tyre testing contd.
It took my system a while to upload the new settings for some reason but now I have them
in all their glory. I’m seriously impressed, notably by the way the tyre temps work on the
FORMULA C
I’m pushing THREE MAJOR THEMES on Project Cars and would be grateful for any feedback
on these from the Forum: TYRE TEMPERATURE, FEEDBACK and RAIN
Tyre Temps
I was skeptical about the inclusion of changing grip levels that related to tyre temps until I
actually got to try it – the experience is highly addictive and for impatient players like
myself it really forces you into a feeling of reality, to respect the Sim and drive it properly.
Because the grip starts off low and you gradually build more it tames the instinct to ‘go
ape’ and spin off.
The gradual build of grip on the PCARS sim as the tyre temp increases is phenomenal – it
takes you to the heart of what racing is really all about.
I don’t want to overcomplicate my feedback but the instant success of the tyre temp
introduction compels me to say something about the more distant possibilities. I mention
Feedback below, which is my primary interest, but I would suggest we consider a few
additional features: new tyres, effect tyre pressures (probably already at play) and heat
cycles.
New tyres heat more aggressively than worn rubber and offer a kind of paradox in that
they start offering grip when the tyre is not fully up to temperature. It’s easier to make a
mistake during this stage and feedback from the wheel is critical to not overstepping the
available grip. Higher tyre pressures speed the process of getting the grip / heat into the
tyre but there’s a faster fall off in grip on the other side – has this been considered? And
finally once the tyres have been through a heat cycle they become more resistant to
pressure and heat related issues and are slightly easier to drive, if ultimately lacking the
absolute grip level. Then there's wet tyres that do all kinds of strange things as they
encounter a drying surface and start over-heating - that would be really fun to include.
FFB
The theme / feature I really want to connect with Tyre Temps and other facets of PCARS is
the force feedback through the steering wheel. From my perspective, the steering wheel
feels too light when the car is gripping, then it offers resistance when the car slides – this is
the opposite of what you expect in Real Life.
Cold tyre accentuate the feeling through the steering in that the wheel starts light and
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slightly wooden, more bumpy, and you feel vibrations especially when the front end slips
when cold. Then as the grip build you start to feel the weight of the wheel increasing as the
tyre digs into the tarmac. I would love to see that effect married up with the grip we are
getting as the tyre temp increases, because the Dev Team have done a truly spectacular
piece of work here.
I really hope we can dive into the feedback situation because it’s something that has
always bugged me on driving games, and if we can crack it so that the wheel builds
resistance as the grip increases (under braking especially) I believe that it will be much
easier to feel where the limit is in some of the trickier cars and in general
Default Tyre
The default has superb transition from understeer to o/steer and I love that part of this tyre –
it is so driveable.
Even better – when you get a little sideways I feel that you can crack a little bit of power,
make the rear squat down, and cure that bit of rear slide to drive out of the corner. That is
an AWESOME feature.
OK the slides on the default are a little bit slow and too easy but I think we can work on
that. The earlier stages of development, to me, felt a little bit edgier and I preferred feeling
the rear skipping slightly more in short sharp movements that you could correct with quick
jabs of opposite lock. So perhaps there’s some room to improve on that side because on
occasion I find myself in the middle of the road after an extended rear slide. From my notes
I believe the ‘M’ tyre worked this feature a little better.
One negative point is regards the brake and steer conundrum – when you brake late and
deep the car wants to swap ends when you steer. This tyre is forgiving to you get away
with it and I checked the brake bias but I felt it was correct. I hope we can address this so
that the Sim doesn’t light up the rear end in this situation because it makes the car quite
confusing when you left foot brake into higher speed corners as well.
The FC is my favourite car on the Sim right now because everything is balanced – from the
braking grip, to the response of the steering on corner entry, through to the transition on
power to balance the car from u/s to o/steer and make an exit. I hope we will use this
platform to bring balance to the rest of the galaxy, as the dark side has been working on
some of my old favourites (FA & 98T)
R2 Tyre
The R2 felt slightly edgier on cold tyres but I don’t think that’s relevant to anything. It may
have been in my head but it also seemed to take longer to get up to temperature, but I’m
new to this game.
In all it seemed to have more front grip and I preferred having the ability to put the car on
the apex and control the final metres of braking into tight corners like the corkscrew,
whereas I found that harder driving the default. So I loved driving this tyre even more than
the default and found driving it very addictive.
R3 tyre.
Holy moly. It’s evil so I assumed this was testing an extreme. Once I imagined that it was
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pouring with rain my brain adapted much better and I stopped requiring emergency
medical assistance.
RAIN
That takes me to my final point. We have experimented with some evil setups and as in this
case, I believe they have a role to play as a driving experience on a wet surface where
you have learn on a trial by error basis in "treacherous conditions". Are we working on a rain
setup that is challenging to drive, because I feel we have all the ingredients but currently
the wet race mode seems to be a visual experience rather than a driving one?
As always I greatly value and thoughts, feedback, insults or suggestions!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok, back to business. This post is going to be based on Build 603 and will cover the Ford
Mustang Boss 302R and the Mitsubishi Evo X FQ 400.
Ford Mustang Boss 302R
Circuit: Northampton National
This car is very interesting for me, I am in two minds about whether I like it or not. Firstly, I
think it is very well developed with the way it feels a lot heavier than other cars in the
game. This car has really made me realise how much feedback you actually get through
the wheel and from the general behaviour, this all adds to the overall feeling of the realism
and makes you feel like you are actually driving it. Obviously when I am driving in my race
seat at home, I know I am not driving the car in real life, but what I mean is that, the
feedback you get from the car is so good, that you can feel every bit of movement from
the car without actually being in the car itself. This is how every car needs to be and really
shows that we are now starting to create accurate feelings without you having to feel the
car through your ‘butt’, which is what is most important for feeling in racing, that ‘Seat in
the pants’ feeling.
General Balance
It is the general balance of this car, which makes it hard for me to decide on whether I like
it or not. I think it is all down to personal preference and whether you like driving the big
American Muscle cars. This car for me I feel is quite ‘annoying’ to drive. I think this is
because the balance of the car changes dramatically on entry, mid corner and on exit of
every corner, which makes it a lot more unpredictable to drive. In a ‘nutshell’ I think the car
is very sluggish on the brakes, very heavy on turn in, which causes a lot of mid corner
understeer and then has a complete feeling change of snap oversteer without warning on
exit. The unpredictability of this car is what I do not like about it as I like to have confidence
in every car I drive by knowing exactly what it is going to do through every corner. That
being said, the feeling I like is from experience of a race car and know what this car is like
in real life, you will never replicate the feeling I am looking for.
The front end is very positive through high-speed corners, but once you start braking there
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is a lot of instability and unpredictability as the rear starts to move and float resulting in lift
off oversteer, which is quite hard to control as it snaps quite easily. Due to the weight at the
front, there is a lot of lazy understeer and push with quite a bit of power oversteer on exit,
which is caused when the rear tyres are under load as it feels like the ‘grip fall off’ window
is quite narrow for when the rear tyres are both under load through a corner and under
power at the same time.
This car is very realistic with the behaviour characteristics it has, with the massive weight
distribution change when braking, to feeling sluggish and understeery mid corner, to
having a load of power oversteer on exit. I feel that the characteristics it has are correct
and are good, but maybe taming down some expects of the characteristics could then
improve the overall feeling of the car.
The changes I would make would purely be for consistency purposes, to make the general
balance more predictable and more solid over long runs. The first change would be to
increase rear stability (only slightly) for when the weight distribution changes after the
braking phase, which causes the rear to go light. I would change it so that the rear still has
some weight to it, meaning it does not go as light, resulting in a little more rear stability. As I
said, I would only make this a really minor change, as this car is an absolute monster in real
life and the characteristics we have at the moment are very realistic, but I personally feel
that the rear becomes too light-weighted after the braking phase causing snap oversteer.
The second change I would make, would be to widen the ‘grip fall off window’ so that
there is an increase of traction when on power but when the outside of the tyre is used at
the same time. This car is known for a lack of traction and a lot of power oversteer, but I
would increase this in our case (only slightly) to improve consistency.
Mitsubish Evo X FQ 400
Circuit: Sakitto GP
Ok so I find this car really fun to drive, the power delivery is very smooth and the car is very
controllable through slides and oversteer moments, when I first started driving the car on
the Default Setup, I was really struggling with lift off oversteer as I was going past the limit of
the tyres to soon, although I was struggling with the oversteer issues, they were really nice
to control even to the point of me using a lot of opposite lock to get the car back, which is
a major improvement compared to previous builds.
What I have noticed with this car is that you heavily rely on the lift off oversteer to get the
car to the apex. Part of this factor and characteristic is good, but parts of it is quite
unrealistic to me, as I found myself sometimes getting on the power and then lifting several
times at the apex of the corner to get it to turn in, the cause of this situation is because
there car is very unstable through high speed, which causes you to have to get on the
power to straighten the car up. Once you are on power you begin to understeer, which
means you then have to lift to get the car to rotate.
This car in real life is known to be quite planted through high speed and to have good
rotation and a good amount of lift off oversteer, which is what we currently have now. The
only change I would make would be to make the rear more stable both under braking
and through high-speed corners. At the moment, the rear floats quite a bit during the
braking phase, which as this car is 4WD should not be the case. By increasing rear stability,
this would improve the general balance and would make the car feel more realistic. With
the changes I would make, this would result in.
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• The car being stable under braking with progressive rotation on entry.
• A good amount of mid-corner stability, but with the ability to provoke rotation if needed.
This would then improve all round consistency, as the car would not be on a knife edge all
the time and would give the car a more realistic feeling of lift rotation on entry without
losing rear stability, which would get rid of the unrealistic style of having to get on power to
correct the oversteer and then to keep lifting through the corner to get the rear to rotate
to the apex. It should all be one type of behaviour where, you brake, as you get off the
brake, the rear should rotate but not snap and then you could still use power and lift or
brake whit using lock to get more rotation if need be. I think this car is really great and the
characteristics of the car are very realistic, I would just make the above changes to
improve it even further, which will also improve overall consistency, as at the moment it is
like you are ‘treading on egg shells with the rear.’
My Default Setup
So regardless of my thoughts above, I read Casey’s testing notes and whilst testing this car
decided to make my own Default Setup, which you can find below. With this setup I aimed
to keep it as ‘Street Car’ as possible because this is what the car is and it should not be
completely changed to feel like a race car. All I have done is to try and make the car
more stable and more consistent as I feel that this is most important with a lot of cars
struggling with the same consistency issue at the moment.
So with this setup, I think the car is really nice to drive, it is very well balanced with really
nice progressive and controllable slides. It does have quite a bit of high speed rear
instability, which the changes I said above could improve it, but I have done the best I can
and feel that this is a great Default to start from. With this Setup I did a 2:23.400, there is still
quite a bit of time left in the lap I think, but my main goal was to find a strong Default to
work from.
Please note that I use a very fast Steering Ratio, always have done in sim racing, so you
guys may have to turn it down.
All in all, some huge improvements all round and I think that the physics in this game as a
whole is just going from strength to strength. The changes I have spoken about with both
cars, I feel are just because I am really picky and look for the finer detail. Some people
may agree with my comments and some may not (which is fine), but to be honest, if we
kept these two cars as they are, then they both would be very strong, I am just trying to
knuckle down on the consistency of being able to keep the car on the limit for a long
period.
Great Job guys!
Nic J
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this posted is based on Build 608 to 612 and is about the Vintage tyre testing I did today
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looking at the Vintage R1, the Vintage Flexi A/B/C tyres as well as Doug’s new Default tyre.
Before I go into detail about the tyres I have been testing, I just want to say that this car is
very fun to drive, it requires a lot of car control and discipline to become fast and
consistent, which I think is great as this teaches you to drive smart, as well as teaching you
all of skills needed to keep the car on the limit. The best way I found to drive this car was to
drive way below the limit, but to get as close as possible to the limit at the same time. The
car is very easy to overdrive, which is what will keep you disciplined, as it is not easy to
drive.
Whilst I have been carrying out my testing programme, I have been watching THIS video of
Alexander Rossi driving the same car in real life and from what I can see, I think we are not
far away at all. With my tyre testing, I have been taking both the video and my personal
feelings into account so that I could come up with the best analysis possible by working
towards my aim of creating a tyre that is realistic, believable and consistent at all times, so
with this in mind, all of my feedback will be focussed on the above aim.
Testing Circuit for all tyres: Belgian Forest
Vintage R1 Tyre
I am very impressed with this tyre, it is very predictable, controllable and feels really nice
once you know how the tyre reacts. The general balance of the car I feel is very solid, the
car moves a lot mid corner and on exit but is very forgiving at the same time where you
can really hustle the car to where you want it to go. I feel that the balance makes you feel
like you are floating through medium speed corners where you can power slide your way
through, controlling the throttle and being precise with steering application at the same
time.
Although, I feel that this tyre feels very good with the balance it has, I feel that in
comparison to the video, the behaviour of the car with this tyre I think is a little unrealistic in
some areas. This tyre seems to not have much traction both when the middle part of the
tyre is being used and when the outside of the tyre is under load when on power. Mid
corner I feel has too much grip from the front and not enough at the rear, the reason I say
this is because as the balance is very controllable, it means you can turn the car in on the
brakes to get the rear to step out and move, which minimises understeer and helps you to
the apex. In this case, I feel that it is unrealistic, as the car in RL seems to have a lot of
understeer where turning in on the brakes would not be the correct technique.
Overall I feel that this tyre is very solid and nice to drive, I would be looking for more
understeer from the front but with more stability from the rear both mid corner and under
power, as at the moment, the car breaks traction very easily both in a straight line and
when a small amount of lock is applied, which does not seem to be as frequent in the
video.
Before I go onto the next tyre, if you have a look in the video, throttle application is very
progressive, but there is not too much of a delay to get on full throttle and once full throttle
is applied, there does not seem to be any power oversteer at all. The understeer from the
car in the video is to be expected, as well as the instability under braking and on entry to
the corner. This is what I feel we need to develop into our car, which is progressive
instability under braking and on initial turn in, where the car is still very controllable when
sliding or when having moments. With our car at the moment, we have a lot of stability
under braking and on entry, but a lot of instability on exit due to lack of lateral and basic
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traction, which I think is the opposite to what you can see in the video with instability under
braking and sometimes on entry, with controllable moments ending with decent traction
on exit and when under load through high speed.
Vintage Fexi A Tyre
This tyre I feel is a step closer to where I think the tyre needs to be, but still needs some
work, which is too be expected with the stage AJ is at with all Vintage tyres. What I feel is a
lot more realistic compared to the R1 Vintage tyre is the understeer that this tyre produces,
which reduces corner speeds to a much more believable pace. (Look at the video where
you will see that corner speed is very low compared to the present day and all speed is
carried and gained on the straights). This tyre has the same stability under braking and on
entry as the R1, but with a little more traction in a straight line, and with the same lack of
traction when on power through the corner. What I have noticed with both tyres so far is
that power oversteer is very easy to create but also very easy to control, which is both
good and bad, meaning that you can use it to your advantage to get rid of the
understeer, which compared to the video is unrealistic as you do not see Alexander power
sliding the car through the corner and instead is very patient with the understeer before he
gets on the power. This tyre for me is a step forward in realism compared to the R1 tyre as it
is also very well balanced and gives more realistic cornering speeds and grip levels.
Look at THIS video and skip to 1:20 to understand what I mean about power sliding. (This
video is using the C tyre, but A and B are also the same when on power through a corner.)
Vintage Flexi B & C
Ok so I am putting these two tyres in the same paragraph as I feel they are very similar,
personally I do not have much to comment on both of them, as my general feeling of
them is the same. In comparison to Flexi A, B has more front end grip where you do not
have to wait as long or slow the car down as much to get to the apex. Fexi C has more
initial front bite, which to me feels better as the grip level from the front tyre maintains
throughout the corner, where Flexi B has less initial front bite and starts to push/understeer
at the middle of the corner. Although B has less grip then C, B still has more entry bite than
A, but is very similar in regards to mid corner grip. Both B and C have the same feeling of
traction, which I feel is too low especially when applying lock on power, but if we were to
increase the traction both in a straight line and through a corner, it would only be minor as
you only want to reduce the power oversteer snap, but not take it away completely. Also, I
think that 2nd gear traction is also too low compared to the video as there is a lot of wheel
spin, but this is minor.
Default
This tyre is by far the fastest but the most unrealistic due to the way the rear behaves. The
rear is very loose but controllable at the same time, this minimises understeer a great deal
compared to the Flexi tyres, which increases overall corner speed but results in a more
unrealistic feeling. Grip under braking is higher resulting in later braking as well as the ability
to trail brake. The overall balance is great with a lot of front end grip and overall traction,
which still has the tendency to break under load, which is nice, but I personally feel that this
tyre is too good for a car as old and under developed as this one. I am not saying that the
tyre is not good, as it is very interesting how, as development has progressed, progressive,
controllable slides are now a lot more common on default setups compared to previous
builds, but regardless of this, this tyre is not a realistic fit in my opinion.
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Overall I feel that the Vintage Flexi C tyre is the best out of all in regards to more realistic
behaviour and better all round feeling. I think that making the tyre more unstable under
braking and on entry from time to time, together with increased traction and mid corner
rear stability would be another step forward in the right direction. I think we are very close
already, but maybe a few characteristics needs be swapped around in some areas and
improved in others.
Great job yet again, hope my feedback helps.
Nic J
Andrew Weber:
I sure hope they are paying you enough. J
I know /exactly/ what parameter adjustments I need to do to approach your targets. It'll
probably take iterations to hit just right, but the nature of how you describe the balance
indicates we need a little more tack grip and a little less deformation grip. The braking and
traction stability shift indicates an adjustment to the profile (closer to real-life as it turns out)
and more of what Cristiaan calls twist (I use the term twist for patch-yaw, he uses it for
rotational axis deformation). The rollover is mostly a consensus...needs to be somewhere
between B and C.
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DECEMBER 2013
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So I have had a crazy week, which is not about to stop as next week is going to be the
same.
Last week I did a shakedown test at Donington in the Ginetta G55 which was a day to test
my modifications and sort them out so that they are absolutely perfect for when I start my
pre-season testing. As you all know due to my disability I can't just 'jump' in and drive a car,
I have to re-build the car around me to make sure my legs work to their full potential.
The day was tough with a lot of changeable conditions and the fact that I was not 100%
comfortable in the car as more changes to my modifications were needed. We had a lot
of problems with my seat, which I was falling out of every time I turned into a corner due to
the fact that I had to be raised up nearly 100mm, which took my body out of the seat
resulting in no lateral support for my body. We are now sorting all of the bugs that we had
on Thursday and are doing another test next week that will be much better!
So even though it was only a shakedown, I got my first proper taste of a RWD car with
370BHP. The first thing I noticed in this car was the sensitivity of the throttle pedal, with the
slightest of touches spinning the rear wheels up, which took getting use to coming from a
FWD Clio Cup car J Due to my modifications not being 100% I was not in the position to
push and really learn the car, but this will all change next week.
Thursday's changeable conditions gave me another idea/feature which I think is very
important and needs to be in Pcars (if it has not been thought of already).
That idea/feature is WIND. Wind speed is very important and can change the attitude of a
car completely from corner to corner, on Thursday there was a wind speed on 70mph all
day, which was another factor that made the balance of the car very tricky, of course, it
all depends on what direction the wind is coming from which can change a lot in all parts
of the corner, braking, entry, mid corner and exit. I noticed that in certain corners the wind
would create oversteer depending what direction and what corner you are going through
and understeer in others. Going down the pit straight, the wind was so string that it was
pulling the car towards the pit-wall meaning you had to have a small amount of opposite
lock to keep the car in a straight line.
I do not know what you guys think about this idea, but I think it is another important and
realistic feature that you have to take into account in motorsport in real life, but is not
something you have to take into account on a sim. I can go into more detail if need be,
but I just wanted to put this idea forward.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
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So I am now back from my test which I had yesterday at Snetterton in the Ginetta G55, the
day was very strong for me with some good pace straight away and a lot better than
expected. RWD is new to me as yesterday was the first proper time I drove a RWD and it
feels very natural and personally a lot better than FWD.
It was wet and greasy all day with a lot of fog in the morning which delayed the day as we
did not start running until around 11:30. The car is 'awesome' there is so much power with
one small touch of the throttle spinning up the rear wheels, so you have to be very
progressive with the power to maximise traction. The braking is very stable and strong with
the new paddle shift system allowing you to just focus on the braking phase.
When we come to developing the car for Pcars I can go into a lot of detail from what I
found yesterday, I learnt that less is more with this car, meaning that they are very easy to
over-drive and sometimes is faster to brake earlier and focus on the exit.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 626 and will cover the Palmer Jaguar JPLM
and the new A/B/C F3 Slick Tyres by comparing them to F3 Slick R3.
I am going to start with the Palmer Jaguar as this is the car I have been doing most of the
development with for these tyres. Today I am looking at tyre behaviour from ‘stone cold’ to
how they heat up, the feeling they give during the heating phase and how they feel at
optimum.
Palmer Jaguar JPLM
Mode: Free Practice
F3 Slick – A
Ok so having done a few laps with the R3 tyre, tyre A to me feels more realistic from cold
and through the heating faze. With the R3, there is a lot of grip on the rear both in the
middle and on the outside of the tyre creating unrealistic grip levels through traction in a
straight line and from lateral stability, whereas with tyre A there is less traction in the middle
of the tyre creating more wheel spin and less stability when the outside of the tyre is used.
In comparison to the R3 tyre, tyre A requires a lot more thought, by this I mean that you
have to treat it like a cold tyre in the first 2 laps by braking earlier, being smooth with
steering inputs and waiting before you lean on the rear tyre. With this tyre, rear stability
through high speed is more realistic due to the lack of grip available when the outside of
the tyre is used, this gave me a more realistic feeling compared to R3. By lap 3 the rears
are pretty much there with increased traction and increased lateral stability, which is
something that did not really change with the R3 tyre as the lateral stability and traction
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was always present.
The front tyres are very similar to R3 as there is a lot of understeer in the first lap especially,
which then starts to reduce mid way through lap 2 as the front tyres start to come in. I
personally feel that the lack of grip from the front tyres needs to be increased both from
cold to when they are at optimum. I know previously I asked for a lot of understeer in the
first couple of laps, but due to experience from this year, I feel that we may need to
increase the first lap grip level of the fronts by a little bit. The reason I say this is because the
amount of steering lock you have to use (nearly full lock) to get the front tyres to grip and
bite for the first lap is a little unrealistic.
From my personal experience, I see cold front tyres in 3 stages.
Stage 1: where there is a small amount of initial bite, which does not require full lock to turn
Stage 2: where the tyre starts to scrub and understeer as the load through the tyre is
increased, steering lock may need to be increased at this stage as the tyre starts to push.
Stage 3: where you have to wait for the tyre to grip up and come back to you, pulling you
through the corner.
These 3 stages results in the ‘slide and grip’ feeling, which is what I have spoken about it
the past.
At the moment with this tyre when cold, it does not feel like it has stages within its
characteristics, there seems to be one characteristic of no initial bite, which carries on
trough the corner. This means that you are full lock trying to get the car to turn and have to
slow the car down a lot to even have a chance of making the corner, this feeling carries
on through the lap until mid way through lap 2, where the tyres start to feel more natural.
As I said above, traction in the middle of the tyre has decreased together with less lateral
stability when the tyre is cold which improves overall realism. I personally feel that
decreasing traction in the middle of the tyre a further step would improve the realism when
the tyre is cold as there still is a bit too much traction straight out of the pit lane where you
can only spin the rear wheels and create instability through lateral load. Decreased lateral
stability through the corner and when on power is a good step forward, as for me this is
what separated this tyre from R3 resulting in more thought having to be applied in the cold
tyre phase when using/ putting the rear tyre under load.
Lastly, optimum temperature and high grip level is reached by lap 4, which I feel is more
realistic from R3, with good bite under braking together with increased rear stability mid
corner and exit. I still think there needs to be more grip from the front tyre, this time through
mid corner, as the entry bite I feel is fine but with too much scrub and laziness mid corner,
which is what I feel is letting the overall balance down. This situation can be improved by
changing the setup to add more rotation to the rear, but with this car, the downforce it has
IRL and grip from the front means that you should not need the rear to turn to get around
the understeer issue.
F3 Slick - B
I find this tyre very interesting. There is not much I can really say about it, as I have said most
of the characteristics that are in these tyres above. This tyre has the same characteristics as
tyre A, but with a little spin/ difference in other areas. The cold tyre understeer is the same
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as tyre A, but with more overall grip when the tyre is cold with increased rear stability
through high speed together with more lateral stability improving overall rear stability and
balance.
In the cold tyre phase, I noticed that this tyre has a lot more rear grip, which causes less
rear rotation meaning that the middle part of the tyre is used more compared to the
outside, which is not the case with tyre A. As the grip stops the rotation, there is more
understeer than tyre A in the first instance, but as the tyres start to heat up, which I feel is
earlier by half a lap than tyre A, the car has a lot more grip and is faster.
The easiest way I can explain this it is that tyre B is more unrealistic than tyre A when cold
due to increased overall grip, but tyre B grips and heats up quicker as well as produces
more overall grip than tyre A when at optimum. I think mixing both tyres together with the
characteristics of tyre A when cold with the increased grip level of tyre B at optimum would
be a good way to go. I think having the unpredictability of tyre A when cold to having the
optimum grip of tyre B when at temperature would make a good tyre.
F3 Slick - C
Ok so this tyre put a smile on my face J, the differences between tyre A/B are very minor,
as the characteristics of the tyres in terms of how they affect the balance is near enough
the same. This tyre is very interesting, because it produces less amount of grip then tyre B
making it more like tyre A when cold, but also produces the same overall stability, grip and
front bite as B.
So the main difference that I found with this tyre is that there is less stability laterally when
the outside of the tyre is used, there is less lateral stability under power, as well as under
load through the corner. Even though the stability produced is less than the other tyres, this
is only the case on initial entry, which allows the rear to rotate more, minimising understeer.
Once the initial entry phase has finished, there is still the same amount of grip and stability
available as tyres A and B. So with this tyre, there is less traction and lateral stability than
tyre B, which makes the balance feel more like tyre A when cold, but with the same overall
grip when cold as tyre B making it overall more unrealistic than tyre A.
F3 Slick – N (Nic’s Tyre)
Ok so this has been a complicated blog and I have confused myself a few times writing it
with all of the A is better than B but B is better than C etc. As I have done in the past I will
finalise my feedback with my ‘N’ tyre, which has all 3 tyres combined into one.
Cold
Ok so to put it very simply, the N tyre would have the characteristics of a cold front tyre
with the 3 stages outlined under tyre A, with the lateral rear instability of tyre C but with the
grip level unpredictability of tyre A when cold. As well as increasing the front tyre grip level
and adding the 3 stages of cold tyre feeling, I would also add a little more front bite under
braking.
Optimum
When the tyre is at optimum temperature, tyre ‘N’ would have the overall grip level of tyre
B but with the lateral instability on initial entry of tyre C.
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Great job yet again AJ, I myself am realising that, due to my experience IRL over the past
couple of months, I am able to go back over my previous feedback and improve it further.
I hope this helps.
I will start writing up my feedback with the same A/B/C tyre test but with the Formula C.
Keep pushing!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Great feedback. I have a good idea what to do with just that, but I will wait until after the
FC feedback before making adjustments. Thanks.
"Ok so this has been a complicated blog and I have confused myself a few times writing it
with all of the A is better than B but B is better than C etc"
Don't worry about that. It may seem like we're getting into the weeds sometimes, but your
feedback matches up well to the actual differences. When that happens, my job is easy. I
just have to look at how far to dial between the different aspects called out, based on
exactly how much A is better than B in an aspect, etc. Other times, when I get eye
opening feedback (stuff I did not foresee), I then have to do more analysis to figure out
what is going on. That is good to do, and has to be done in those cases, but also more
difficult. This round is of the easy flavor (so far...we'll see what FC brings). The feedback was
of the expected type.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So it’s a busy couple of days for me with Pcars, I have been asked by Casey and AJ to test
many different cars with different tyres etc and it is great. This post is going to be based on
Build 626 and will cover the new GT3 Slick Tyres with all 3 tyre compounds, Soft, Medium
and Hard.
I chose to test the GT3 Slick compounds with the BMW Z4 GT3, as I have not driven this car
in a long time, I use to love this car back in the BTM days and started to struggle as we got
to SETA, but from what Casey has been saying, it looked like the perfect car to use for this
test.
So I am unsure whether these compounds have the heating model on them and so I
based all of my feedback and thoughts on the general balance of the car on all 3 tyre
compounds. (Casey can you confirm if these tyres have the heating model) as I can feel
some differences from one lap to another in terms of grip level, but the changes are very
minimal and the car is very strong from cold.
GT3 Slick – Soft
I have to say that right now this car is the most enjoyable car to drive at the moment, it
seems to have gone back to the roots of BTM with the way the balance feels, but is on a
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completely different level of realism. This tyre is really nice, it has tons of grip all round but
with a hint/ quite a bit of understeer, which is what makes it more realistic and not like the
car is on ‘rails’. As well as the general balance being planted and grippy, there is
progressive rotation and movement from the rear, which keeps you on your toes and helps
minimise understeer. I started to get the feeling of the car ‘squirming’ under braking as I
increased the brake pressure from the 80% to 100%, this put a smile on my face as it
reminded me of being in the Ginetta on Tuesday when the same feeling was present when
you are on the limit of braking. Even though this car has a lot of grip, there is still progressive
slides that go with the rotation, which are controllable predictable.
There is a lot of traction, which allows you to get on power early but still requires progressive
application, as the outside of the tyre when on power is not as stable, the instability of the
outside of the tyre is what I feel makes the throttle application so realistic, as turning when
on power will always unsettle the car to some extent.
What I mostly like about this car/tyre is that it is very consistent and predictable, which is
how a race car should be. At the moment with some cars in Pcars it is still quite difficult to
predict what the car is going to do and by the time it moves, it is too late. Each car is
getting better with this characteristic, but so far this car I feel is the most developed in this
area which makes it the most enjoyable to drive.
GT Slick – Medium
This tyre is very similar to the Soft tyre, the main difference I noticed was the traction when
using the outside of the tyre. On entry, the front tyres felt near enough the same with a tiny
bit more initial understeer, but this was helped by the lack of stability when the outside of
the tyre is under load which caused more rotation. The rotation and lack of stability in this
case is a positive step as it is not an uncontrollable snap but instead a progressive
movement that is finished off with a nice feeling of ‘grip-up’ when you are mid-corner. The
only big change is the traction on exit, which I feel is quite a bit less than the Soft tyre. I
noticed traction in the middle of the tyre (when you are not turning) is the same, but as
soon as the outside of the tyre is under load, there is a sudden snap and loss of grip. With
this car, changes to the rear downforce really affects the behaviour which is great and so I
am sure I can grip it up and get around the lack of lateral traction, but I personally feel that
the lateral traction needs to be increased slightly, not as much as the soft tyre, but this tyre
at the moment has the least amount of traction compared to all 3 compounds.
GT3 Slick - Hard
This tyre is very similar to the Medium tyre with the same characteristics, but with more
understeer from the front. The rotation on entry is also similar, but with a nice ‘grip-up’
feeling towards mid-corner. With the rotation being helpful with understeer, both with this
tyre and the Medium tyre, I see it as a little unrealistic as you are able to turn the car in on
the brakes and slide it on entry, which would not be as easy or as fast if you were to do it
IRL. Of course turning in on the brakes helps the front IRL and sometimes unsettles the car a
lot, but in this case you seem to get away with a lot more. This tyre is still great with the
correct characteristics, but a slight increase in grip on the rear I feel is needed, but this
change would only be minor to improve consistency. As I said above with the Medium
tyre, changes to the rear on car setup would for sure cure this situation, but I feel that the
characteristics of the tyres themselves need to be adapted before you start making
changes to the car.
Overall
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Overall, the Soft tyre is great and for me is what makes this car stand out with the
predictability and consistency. The Medium tyre I feel is a good step to a harder tyre with
more understeer that requires more patience, but the lack of lateral stability needs to be
increased both mid corner and on power. The Hard tyre is very similar to the Medium
where it has a great feeling of durability and with a lack of lateral stability, which should be
the case, but with the rotation on entry being too much, which causes unrealistic sliding,
but sliding that you should not really be able to get away with. Gripping up both the
Medium and Hard tyres only slightly would be the next step and then we can go from
there.
The car is great, even with tyres that cause the balance to move a lot, it shows that slides
and movements are predictable and controllable. The car has made a massive step
forward.
Tyre Warmers
Whilst I was driving this car, because I felt that there was a lot of grip straight away, it give
me the idea of Tyre Warmers, which are of course allowed in some classes/race series’ but
not in others. This means that tyres would be close to optimum temperature as soon as they
leave the pit lane and therefore have instant grip on the out lap. Are tyre warms planned
for the game? This would mean adding animations of mechanics taking off the tyre
warmers etc before the car goes out. F1 obviously use them and this is another fine detail
that would add to the overall experience. Finding out what classes we have on Pcars that
use tyre warmers would be good, as this will give us a better idea of what cars we can
focus on without starting from ‘stone cold’ tyres.
What is everyones thoughts on this?
Great work!
Er, I think I have just realised that the above blog post was based on the first revision of the
GT3 Slick, when the new build comes out I will do it all again.
Woops!
EDIT: or did I do it right? Im confused haha HELP!!
Casey Ringley:
If it was 626 then you got the new stuff; and from what you say I can tell it's the newer tires.
Great report! I knew it would be a good one with the Ginetta test still fresh in your memory.
J Sounds like we've got a pretty good base going here and the next revision can be more
refinement rather than reinvention. Nice. There are some subtle differences in the balance
of grips between the three compounds in addition to just the different total levels of grip,
so I'll need to take a look at that again with your notes in mind.
Tire warmers are planned and kinda sorta work in some modes already. There is an issue
that the tire gets pre-heated but the pressure isn't increased to match, which is why it's not
practical to do serious testing in time trial or other non-free practice modes. But that will all
get sorted out soon.
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Sorry I missed your call. Lunch ran really, really, stupidly long. Seriously, AndyG may still be
there waiting for them to get his full order correct. Going on about 32+ hours awake now
and the fog is starting to descend. We'll get on the phone next week perhaps when I'm
back on normal time.
Casey Ringley:
Forgot to say (there's that mental fog coming) - they do have a heating model, but not the
same one as the F3 tires. Didn't do any work to calibrate it for the new tire. There's actually
a lot of new tricks inside flexi we can use for heating, so that will be a big part of one of the
next revisions.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey AJ,
I hope you are well mate.
I wanted to ask you a quick question,
I am testing the F3 Slicks A,B and C using the FC car and I feel that we are in the middle of
a rock and a hard place with using the same tyre for 2 cars. The reason I say this is because
I feel that the changes made to the tyres from R3 has helped improve realism of the cold
tyre phase in the Palmer Jaguar, but has made the FC car feel too lazy on the front and
too lively on the rear for an 'open wheel' single-seater. What this means is that the changes
I would ask for to help the FC car would make the Palmer Jag too safe if you get what I
mean.
So my question to you is, are we able to make 2 different final variations of the F3 slick that
is developed and suited to both cars and their characteristics? This means that from
anyone looking in from the outside would think that they both have the exact same tyre,
but the finer characteristics are a tiny bit different. The reason why I ask this is because with
the FC having more aero than the PJ, the cold tyre phase is shorter as the aero helps the
tyres heat up faster. This means that if we used the same tyre characteristics for the PJ,
then the tyres would come in too quickly.
What do you think? (You know better than me with what is possible and what isnt :D)
If it is not possible then I think we should develop the tyre more towards the FC and just use
the PJ with the same tyre.
Also on another note, I forgot whether you answered a question I had in one of my blogs
ages ago that asked whether track conditions, track temperatures and air temperatures
would affect the tyre heating model with brake temperatures also helping heat the front
tyres etc. This would then help me decide how we develop the F3 slick for the FC because
all temperatures play a massive role in the cold tyre phase.
I can go ahead and write some feedback on the FC and the A/B/C tyres with how they
feel now if that helps, but I wanted to ask you the above question first.
Thanks
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Andrew Weber:
We would almost certainly fork the tire development into separate FC and PJ when
required. Which sounds like now. J
Go ahead and feedback separately for FC. Next revs will be separate, so I need FC
specific feedback too.
I am working on the FA now, and am realizing that how I am factoring the open wheelers is
exceptionally hard to distill mechanical tire behavior away from heat behavior. I really
have to do them together. So the FC's approach from here on out will be much tighter tied
to heat (as FA's is right now). And, yes, that is because air stream, brakes, track temp, etc,
all factor in.
Ben Collins:
Great reading your posts Nic - sounds like we are enjoying a similar experience of the BMW
GT3 - it's awesome!
Noting Andrew's remark here about a re-visit on the Formula C so i look forward to
attacking that as well - does the tyre testing need to be circuit specific or will the tyres
operate the same everywhere? Best, Ben
Ben Collins:
Project Cars Dec 18 2013
Well – we are making some serious progress!
This last batch of testing has been hugely rewarding and thank you Casey, AW and the
team for punching Project Cars closer to the end game.
My test focused on the machines that have seen most of the development of late,
including: Renault 98T, GT3 cars including Mclaren, BMW, Mercedes, Zonda R and a
dabble in the McLaren MP4 road car plus the Lotus 78.
I’ll look at them individually and then open some broader suggestion on the steering wheel
feedback, braking characteristics and some other dynamics!
98T
The old girl is back. X
The 98T has gone through some revolutions but I’m delighted to see that the old charm has
returned along with some seriously cool upgrades.
Default Tyre
The Positive Notes
Turn in is pointy, sharp, and generally mega. It makes the car feel lively and you have the
ability to put the car wherever you want – that sense of complete control is a winner.
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On power – the transition from mid corner understeer to oversteer is progressive and you
soon forget the challenge the dev team faced in creating this feature. You can really drive
the car through a corner and gradually feel the rear breaking away – it’s superb.
The Negative Notes
When the car slides laterally it goes on for too long, especially if the car goes into a tank
slapper and the weight switches across the rear axle, making it difficult to recover. In my
view this still suggests that we need more grip when the car is sliding and more sense of the
speed scrubbing off as a result of the slide – that reduction in speed from the scrub adds to
the sense (and the reality) of recovering grip and I feel we are too light still.
On the default tyre I feel the 98T is too unstable still when you combine braking and
steering, for example under high speed braking into the Tamburello Esses @ Imola (yep I still
haven’t left my Imola testing base camp!)
The car feels too lazy and sloppy on the default tyre – almost like an overheated wet tyre
rolling on the block, the car rolls around and doesn’t feel tight enough. The oversteer as a
result feels too cumbersome – it should be shorter sharp shocks of controllable oversteer.
Steering – it feels a bit dead and I think this is a general theme that we should really pursue.
Is it possible to have the wheel get heavier when the car is gripping and go light when it’s
sliding?
80’s F1 Slick
An instant sense of improvement on the negatives I set out above.
Positives
The car feels tighter and the oversteer feels more aggressive, the car feels more responsive
and there’s less sense of rolling around.
Transition from u/steer to o/steer is epic! More please, and if we could combine it with
more steering feel it would be truly erotic.
Negatives
Oddly enough I missed some of the pointiness from the steering that I had felt in the default
tyre. The turn in is superb with the 80’s slick but it did lose something in the aggression and
predictability of the turn in by comparison to the default.. Could we have the best of both?
On cold tyres I noticed that this tyre wouldn’t let me combine braking and steering very
well (it would spin) but this characteristic phased out as the tyres warmed up. QED – does
that mean that low grip in the Sim causes the brake & steer spin problem? I thought that
was interesting.
Once I got used to it – I felt the car should feel tighter, stiffer and more aggressive in terms
of snappy slides. It’s much better than the default (less lazy) but I feel we should go a lot
further with this.
Set up Conclusions
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I ended up running zero brake mapping and with too much front brake for my inner
preferences, but it was more predictable as a result. I would ideally crank in some more
rear brake to bring back some liveliness to the rear axle but owing to something I
discovered in the BMW GT3 I am avoiding too much rear brake for now.
I stiffened the springs and the car reacted very well to this, which was interesting. It
followed its line through the corner better and was slightly more reactive to throttle.
However, the spring changes did not improve the rolling sensation.
Grip Test Tyre
It felt like it had more rear grip at first.. I may have confused this though with the feel that
front grip was actually reduced.
So the Grip Tyre had more u/steer everywhere and when the rear did break traction it
wasn’t progressive.
The imbalance from reduced front grip proved too much for my meager skills and my
avatar died horribly. There was less braking / stopping power and I saw more sand in the
gravel traps than during a weekend in Blackpool.
In short I didn’t like it but it helps point the way forward!
• Final notes – no idea what button I pressed but all of a sudden I was required to use the
clutch to leave the pit lane! Feels very realistic and the bite point etc is really well
constructed.
• Not enough engine note change when a rear tyre is locked or rears spin up
• Need More tyre sound & feedback
Mclaren MP4
I jumped in this by mistake and from my first impression I would assume this car hasn’t been
worked on yet. However I did want to say the engine note and the graphics are superb!
Zonda R
Initial impressions
1. positive because of the steering which felt more elastic and lifelike.
2. When the rear tankslaps it seemed to have a realistic change in speed / rate at which it
twitched. Hard to explain but the rate of slide varied and I felt I had some control
3. There’s a good sense of understeer, it feels natural and for reason you can really gauge
it but honestly I’m not sure why I felt that in the Zonda.
4. When the traction breaks the transition from u/steer is very good / controllable. This is
especially good in slow corners.
5. Graphics are amazing
Negatives
1. didn’t feel that I could lock the tyres under heavy braking – not enough bite basically.
2. The power feels a tiny bit tame.? Maybe would benefit from some more grunt in the mid
range to liven things up on corner exit
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GT3 Range
I get the impression Casey has spent a lot of time here and there’s a major pay off.
McLaren GT3
Sounds amazing!
Positives
The transition from u/steer to o/steer is beautiful on the way out of slow corners.
The sense of reality is superb especially when braking into corners and you feel the car
respond, though occasionally I felt the car was a bit too unstable doing this.
I noticed that when the car had some wheelspin in a medium speed corner that the
o/steer died out of its own accord – this was very realistic and I didn’t lift off the power. It
was as if the scrub naturally killed off the o/steer.
Negatives
Too much high speed understeer – especially entering Piratella and the high speed right
towards Acque Minerali. The front end washes out immediately and the real car just
wouldn’t do this, it has far more initial turn and a graduated progression into u/steer from a
high level of grip.
I felt the car needed more braking bite and was unable to lock a tyre under braking.
Tyres
I tried the hard tyres and felt there was less grip and it was less satisfying to drive, although I
was able to lock the tyres in this config. I moved to the soft tyre and with the McLaren felt
that the balance was largely the same (which I contradict later) because the front end
was still the limiting factor for me in the higher speed corners and I felt the braking potential
was limited.
GT3 Rain / Greenflash Tyre
I know nothing about this tyre but am assuming that it’s what it says on the tin: a rain tyre!
Braking: heavily reduced braking grip.
Turn in: much reduced turn in grip
In theory the above statements should be correct for a rain tyre, but they felt a bit artificial
without the addition of any straightline wheelspin.
Traction & steering weight are the two main barometers by which to measure the
available track grip and in the wet they are essential, as well as all the sights and sounds
from puddles, rain and spray to give you an insight to the standing water levels.
I suppose this is why I felt disconnected because the steering feedback is light all the time
and the traction didn’t match the reduced grip under braking & turn in.
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Laterally, the rear end was quite loose but also quite unpredictable and difficult to control.
In reality there would probably be more initial understeer when you accelerate out of a
corner and again the level of this would register in the driver a sense of available grip – if
you keep pushing the throttle in spite of the fronts skidding on the wet tarmac then you will
move towards a nasty rear skid.
We don’t currently have that initial u/steer, steering feel, or the reduced straightline
traction – but we have a good start!
Would love to discuss this with you Casey because I realise its probably one of your
toughest missions.
Mercedes SLS GT3
Default
Impressions: feels grounded and responsive like the MP4. Not enough steering feel and has
a similar tendency for high speed u/steer and lack of turn / in power. Felt slightly weaker
under braking
Traction: the steering from the rear sensation felt realistic as in the real thing you’re
practically sitting over the rear wheels. Somehow this translates well into the Sim!
However, if you get into a tank slapper where the slide switches direction the Merc handles
this quite badly and it spins. There’s just not enough grip in that scenario.
I really noticed that the Merc had the brake and steer instability issue. So it spun easily on a
downchange into the hairpin and when braking into the esses (@ Imola!)
Soft tyre (brake mapping to zero)
This livened up the handling for the Merc quite a bit in general. The brake & steer issue
persisted but the soft tyre generally suited the car well and balanced out the front end of
the car, providing more control over where you placed it.
BMW Z4 GT3
This car is bloody fantastic in every department!
Default Tyre
Graphics – it feels like you could touch the interior it’s so detailed. It may be shallow saying
this but it really sells you into the sense of actually being in that car. Then the handling
backs it up!
I’ve focused a lot on the way PCARS machines handle in the most challenging situation,
which is braking from high speed into a tightening corner and then making another hard
turn, and over a sequence of bumps. This is noticeable at Imola in the fast right hander
after Piratella.
The BMW absolutely nails it. The front end is predictable at high speed, so you can select a
line and stick with it, then when you climb onto the brakes the creep to the outside of the
curve is reasonable and predictable. Then you take the plunge into the second right-
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hander up the hill. In real life this corner is all hands on deck – it’s fast, bumpy and you’re
asking everything of the tyres and suspension to cope with the bangs and bruises as you
hammer kerbs whilst late braking and turning. I’m well impressed with what the BMW
delivers here and it stands out on a higher level amongst not just the other GT3 cars, but as
the best car in our range!
Power – fantastic. The power delivery and transition from u/s to o/steer is sublime. Brilliant
control.
This is also greatly helped by the ENGINE NOTE – which goes silent when you lock the rears
under braking and cries out when you get wheelspin. This is an essential ingredient, and the
go kart desperately needs this 24 carat gold quality.
There is some understeer in the high speed corners but it’s predictable and more on this
below re tyre choice.
When you make a car this good it makes people like me greedy because it’s getting close
to perfection. So my additional notes for the BMW only apply to this machine because it’s
on another level from the others currently.
1. On power – perhaps we need a hint more power, or a fraction less traction to liven up
the corner exits at low speed and a bit more spice out of medium speed corner exits.
2. A little bit more turn-in power would be good. Don’t want to upset the balance, but
some of the crazy turn-in of the 98T on default would be good because it feels very natural
and free.
3. More aggressive response over bumps as you apply power, shorter sharp snaps of
oversteer. If we can build some of that in then we have this nailed.
4. More feedback required in the steering wheel – heavier as it grips, lighter as it slips
This platform is fundamentally awesome – we are on the path to victory.
Negatives
1. Not against the car – but for some reason in its environment I noticed that the grass is like
driving on ice.
Soft tyre (brake map to zero)
My favourite moment with the Z4 is the first lap on cold / soft tyres. The feedback is more
alive and the car jumps around a fraction more, the way I want it to all the time.
I prefer the soft tyre on the Z4.
Braking: As I started to really push the Z4 I found it coming a little unstuck at the rear under
braking into the Tamburello esses. I corrected this by moving the brake bias forward to 66%
but then felt the car was less alive under braking elsewhere.
Fundamentally it seems that the sim is not currently differentiating between braking at high
speed, and braking at low speed. We should be able to cope with more rear brake bias
without losing stability under braking into fast corners, because when the downforce is high
and really working it keeps the rear in check – but when the braking force is heavier and
braking into a slower corner you would expect to get some instability at the rear.
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Currently we are having to use quite a lot of front brake to alleviate the nature of the sim.
Many builds ago I recall the 98T was really lively at the rear under braking down to low
speed, but equally it was supported at higher speeds.
Summary
For me the big themes that will bring the Sim into reality are:
1. Steering sensation – heavy in grip, lightening in slip
2. Braking dynamics – more rear stability at high speed, and generally when braking and
steering
3. Sound – the engine notes of the BMW should set the bar for all our cars. Silence when
you lock the rears, screams when you wheelspin
4. Lateral grip vs straightline – more diferrentiation between the two when the car slides –
this will improve our wet tyre. We still need more lateral grip in the slide, some models more
than others.
5. Aggression in the slides. Need to feel more stiffness in the suspension, more movement,
more signals that the car is on the limit before it breaks traction.
6. More turn in sharpness at times.
7. More braking bite – I feel we have gone softer on braking bite and would like to have
the ability to lose tooth fillings when I hit the pedal too hard with the settings at 100% brake
pressure and zero mapping, then to dial it back accordingly.
Like I said I’m a very greedy customer! So whilst I’m at it, please could everyone vote for
the Macau Guia circuit to be added to the Sim, then we will have every top track in the
world.
Have a great Christmas ya’ll – Casey I will be calling!
Casey Ringley:
Great stuff to wake up to! Thanks for doing such an in-depth test of these cars; this is some
really useful data. I should be getting back to the tires after New Year's and will take all of
this on board for the next revisions.
Doug Arnao:
I just built a new Flexi tyre for the 98T Ben. Checked in this AM, so make sure and test it
again when you get the next build. The default tire is now the flexi tyre. Great feedback as
usual!.
Casey Ringley:
I'll digest this soon. Looks great. I am knee deep in FA right now for you to get at as soon as
I can get a decent first pass.
Ben Collins:
Superb thank you Casey - some of this may be easier by phone so will try and explain some
of the nuances that way
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is going to be based on Build 626+ and will cover AJ’s new F3 Slick Tyres from
last week using the Formula C. As you will all see in my above posts, I previously covered
the Palmer Jaguar using the same tyres.
Formula C
General Balance
So from past experience with this car, I have always struggled with the rear, I find it very
unpredictable on entry and mostly when on power at the exit of a corner. The
unpredictability of the rear on this car; makes it feel the most unrealistic ‘open-wheel’ car
that we have at the moment. I feel that this issue is not tyre related, but related towards
the mechanical balance. I see one main characteristic that I feel is causing the
unpredictability issues, that characteristic being over rotation.
The rotation of this car occurs in two parts of the cornering process, which is initial entry and
end of mid-corner to exit. On entry, the rotation is very instant and snappy, which in some
cases is great as it helps minimise the understeer and points the front into the apex early.
Most of the time the rotation is instant and snappy, but allows the car to over rotate
instantly also, which causes snap oversteer and the feeling that the rear is ‘floating’ and
not sitting/‘squatting’ down. If you counter-act the over rotation on entry, then the mid
corner stability of the rear is good, which is why I do not see this as an aero issue or a tyre
issue, it is almost like the rear is too stiff regardless of how much you try and soften it.
The stiffness of the rear is also what affects the car in mid-corner to exit, as if you are on
power on exit with a little bit of steering lock, the rear keeps wanting to rotate even if the
steering lock is minimal. As I said previously, I do not see this as a tyre or aero issue, I feel
that we just need to get the rear to squat more, which will make the car feel a lot more
realistic as at the moment, the unpredictability and over rotation of the rear makes you
feel like you are ‘treading on egg shells’ every time you turn in.
Tyre Testing
Mode: Free Practice
So as I did previously with these tyres on the Palmer Jaguar, I did my tyre testing at Derby
Park National to maintain consistency with my feedback.
As you will see with my previous post asking a question to AJ, I feel that we now need to
start making 2 different variations of the F3 Slick tyre to suit both cars, not only balance
wise, but also how the tyres come up to temperature. With the FC, as the aero produces
more load on the tyres in general compared to the Palmer Jaguar, the tyres would start to
come in within ½ to ¾ of a lap depending on track conditions and temperatures, but
would be at optimum by 1.5 laps.
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With the PJ, at the moment it takes around 4 laps to properly get to optimum, which is not
bad at all, but the progression in grip level for both cars may need to be increased. What I
mean by this is that the first two corners out of the pit-lane are like you are on ice, which is
correct and is how you would expect, but the ice feeling is still present for the rest of the
out-lap, with no progression in grip level until the second lap. All I would like to feel is just a
little more bite/ grip all round after the first sector of the lap to get the feeling of the tyres
starting to come in but still being cold. The grip level progression should then keep
increasing a tiny bit corner by corner, with the end of lap 2 being where you can start to
push resulting in the tyres being at optimum by lap 3.
All of the above of course depends on track and air temperatures but I can go into more
detail on the temperature area when we are ready.
F3 Sick - A
Ok so in fairness to AJ, he has done everything I asked for in this tyre after I gave my
feedback from the R3 tyre a couple of months back. There is less traction in the middle of
the tyre making throttle application very important with less lateral stability when the
outside of the tyre is used. This to me improved the Palmer Jaguar in the cold tyre phase as
it loosened it up a bit for the first lap or so. In the FC’s case, it has not so much hurt or ruined
the car, but I feel that the lack of traction in the middle of the tyre is a little too low for the
first full lap. Out of the pit-lane, the traction is as you would expect (low for the first couple
of corners) but as I said earlier in this post, there does not seem to be any grip increase
during the first lap with still low traction and wheel spinning in 2nd gear to no improvement
in lateral stability through a corner.
By the start of lap 2 there is an increase in grip level with traction improvement as well as
an improvement to initial front bite on entry and mid corner. When this tyre gets to
optimum, the traction is at an OK level when the tyre is put under lateral load on power,
but there is a lot of movement, which makes the rear even more unpredictable and adds
to the over rotation issue making it worse.
In addition to grip increase levels and grip progression as the tyre heats up, I have noticed
that ‘lighting up’ the rear tyres (not literally setting them on fire :P) but spinning them up,
does not build the temperature of the tyre up enough to what it should, as even after
doing ‘burnouts’ to try and get the temperature up, the temperature decreases/returns to
the same level afterwards (sometimes increases, but only by 3 degrees.) This then means
that when you come to accelerate again either in a straight line or out of a corner, there is
no improvement in traction. In real life, just spinning the rear wheels up once or twice
makes a difference to the traction, with throwing the front tyres into shock
(stabbing/throwing the wheel into half lock) creates heat and improves initial bite straight
away.
Basically what I am trying to say is that we need, wheel spins and front tyre ‘shocking’ to
increase bite straight away (only slightly) but at the moment, with the heating model as it
is, you can only get heat into the tyres by driving fast, which completely cancels out the
whole tyre preparation process before you can push on them.
Overall, this tyre I feel is too loose and too unstable for this car which does not help the
over rotation issue, it is not a bad tyre completely because there is good front bite and not
too much understeer and works well on the PJ, but with mechanical balance being off on
this car, the tyre does not help.
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F3 Slick - B
This tyre I feel is more suited to this car than tyre A, there is a lot more overall grip on the out
lap and during the cold tyre phase, which is what I would expect. The main difference on
the out lap I can feel is the front tyre, which has a lot more bite and stability mid corner but
with still some understeer to let you know that the tyre is still cold. What I think is really good
and in some ways answers my feedback from earlier under tyre A, is that as the tyre has
more overall grip on the out lap, it allows you to push quite early, to the point where you
are starting to push after the Old Hairpin, which I feel is pretty good and how it should be
depending on conditions.
As I have said that it has more overall grip than tyre A, I do think it is the same in other areas
of the tyre. There is more traction/grip in the middle of the tyre when you get on power,
which is good, but with the same level of lateral stability when the car is on power and
using the outside of the tyre. This I feel helps the ‘over rotation’ issue in one area and
affects it or makes it worse in another area. With more grip on the rear when the middle of
the tyre is used and more grip on the front, the car feels more stable on initial turn in and
early entry, but loses traction and lateral stability as power is applied from mid-corner to
exit. Once the car is straight and power is applied, traction is at a good level.
The easiest way to explain this is a feeling of ‘drop-off’ where the car feels stable when the
middle of the tyre is under load, but as soon as lateral load is increased passed the middle
part of the tyre, the grip level drops off to give power oversteer and instability. Do not get
me wrong, the positive of this compared to previous tyre behaviour in earlier builds is that
even when the grip level drops, the slide and movement is still controllable. If this was the
case a couple of months back, I would be saying WOW, big improvement, but because
we have made massive leaps forward since then to now, it is almost that I am not surprised
with the improvement and want to make it even more realistic. J
Overall, this tyre I feel is much more suited to this car then tyre A, purely due to the
improvement in overall balance which I feel is more towards how the car should feel.
F3 Slick – C
Ok so I find this tyre very interesting, at first glance I would say this tyre is the worse out of all
3 with regards to performance and behaviour, but I also feel that this tyre has an
interesting foundation that if developed could be very good. This tyre for sure has the least
amount of grip than all 3 tyre compounds. It has less grip all round with a lot more initial
understeer and less traction both in the centre and the outside of the tyre. This tyre has very
little grip as I have said, but what caught my attention was how the lack of grip from the
front tyres in the first lap or so helped with the over rotation issue I have been having. This
meant that on the first lap, on turn in, the rear felt a lot more natural and stable, but as the
tyres started to heat and grip up, this then brought back the over rotation issue to the point
of over rotating at high speed. I would say that the lack of rear grip overall with this tyre is
way too low for this car, but the lack of front grip on the out lap really helped with the over
rotation issue and this is way I feel that there is a good foundation to work from with this
tyre.
Overall, I think the first characteristic to sort is the rotation, as this is what is letting the whole
balance of the car down by making it touchy and twitchy. All 3 tyres are at a very good
level as they are all still able to cope with a car that is trying to rotate everywhere. I
personally would like to sort this issue out and then do another A/B/C tyre test because I
really do not think it is the tyres that are causing the issue.
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If I were to summarise with how the car feels now, I would have to say tyre B is the closest in
terms of realistic feel, but C is the most affective in helping with the rotation issue in the first
lap or so. Grip progression level and change in the feeling of grip is what I would like to see
as I explained under tyre A, with temperatures rising as you go through the car preparation
process before you push. At the moment, car preparation counts for nothing as the grip
level stays the same until you drive fast for a couple of laps.
All in all, we are making massive steps forward, I am just being picky. :P
Great job!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks. This also looks good (as I said to Ben's, which came in today today), but I am
pressing hard on these FA Flexi tires, so I'll digest this as soon as I deliver the FA r0 tires.
Ben Collins:
Project Cars Christmas 2013 / slash New Year
A very Happy Christmas to the Project Cars Team around the world and very best wishes
for a superb New Year!
I focused my attention on some of the hot properties in our armoury and even ventured
out onto a different circuit to get a new perspective on some recent testing. Here goes…
SILVERSTONE GP CIRCUIT
The track is superbly created and the rhythm is exactly right. So often corners like Copse
and Becketts are laid out incorrectly and you lose the sense of connection but they have
been nailed on PCARS. Even Stowe which is difficult to map has the tightening apex and
the way the track drops off on the exit then rises towards Club is spot on.
My only note for potential improvement is at Turn 1 which is extremely high speed and
characterized by some severe bumps around the apex. The bumps are there on our Sim
but I get the feeling they are slightly later in the corner and their affect is less severe. Be
great to really feel them jolt the steering wheel and see it more visually in the cockpit also.
GRAPHICS
That highlights a broader point for me on the graphics – I think we should have more jarring
when we strike kerbs, run wide or hit bumps. I raced Indy Lights at Cleveland Airport and it
was the bumpiest track I’ve ever been to. Through one of the improvised Esses in 3rd/4th
gear (@ about 120mph) it was so bumpy that I couldn’t see properly for at least 2 seconds.
There’s something exhilarating about handling a bucking bronco, catching opposite lock
whilst seeing little more than a blur of green of black – and it felt really fast. Our cockpit
view is super smooth at the moment and I wonder whether we could look at this to add
some real life quality and make life a little harder for the brave kerb hoppers.
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KERBS
Just repeating an old mantra – but the Sim I find is still too punitive on kerb smashing. I’m
being busted for infractions by our system that I’ve been getting away with for years! A
little more leniency on the dirt running would be a good idea and we have enough realism
in the chassis dynamics on kerb strike to dissuade major abuses I think.
Renault 98T
80’s Wet Flexi
I accidentally drove out on the “wrong” tyre (thinking it was a dry one) and wrote down
that it felt like an intermediate wet rain tyre.. only to discover that I had actually selected
the 80’s F1 Rain Flexi !! I can only assume it is intended to reflect precisely that scenario.
The reasons I think this tyre reflects wet grip:
1. tank slap – when you oversteer one way and then it switches direction. In the wet the
tyre has little appetite for this grip wise and it’s very easy to keep sliding. We have that in
this tyre (BUT we also have it to some extent in the dry tyre and need to reduce this feature)
2. Front end grip reduced and slippery under braking
3. Front end feels poor at high speed, fair enough
I also felt however that the rear was too forgiving in terms of traction, notably in a straight
line. I would expect more wheelspin in the lower gears.
Do we know when we will have a full scale wet tyre?
Default Tyre
GENERAL
On the default the car felt improved over the previous build. I felt I had more control, the
car was more responsive to all inputs and the balance (IE grip ratio front to rear) was easier
with slightly crisper acceleration in terms of how the traction was delivered.
NOTE: I would still like to the traction to be more lively in the lower gears with more jumping
around, short sharp jolts of oversteer to give it the ultimate sense of reality.
BRAKING
Felt great and very responsive. I was able to move the brake rearwards (from 61% front to
just 56) and get a good feeling.
TURN-IN
On the initial turn of the wheel I would still like more aggression from the car, especially at
high speed when the downforce is pinching the fronts into the tarmac with enough
pressure to produce diamonds from coal. With our Sim I can spin the steering wheel
towards the apex at Copse and Turn 1 without losing control, or even destabilizing the rear
of the car.
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The nose should really dart in towards the apex and with older models like the 98T you
would get some roll that would accentuate the sensitivity of the weight transfer.
I noticed one gremlin on turn in to Becketts @ Silverstone, the car flipped onto its roof at
very high speed just before I reached the first apex.
BALANCE
I noticed a fair amount of understeer in some of the lower speed corners, especially
Luffield which is quite long / late apex. The car will always understeer there but I felt the
front end was a little numb and was either sliding completely or turning but without much
happening. It would be great to feel a little more grip coming and going from the front
end as you search your way around the corner.
SETTINGS
The settings really addressed some of the feelings on balance and for me this is the first
time I’ve really, really noticed a significant change without a major penalty in other areas.
By adding more front wing (from 6 to 8) and softening the front spring I removed a fair
amount of understeer and boosted the turn / in. However I felt my comments above still
stood and the car has a little too much u/steer and lack of initial turn in power.
OVERALL
The 98T is on a superb path and is really driveable. To make it perfect I would love to feel
like the processor is working faster (in my mind that’s what it feels like) so that you can feel
grip coming and going a little more often. In traction that means more movement (not
horror slides) and at the front to feel the front tyres nibbling for grip, slipping and biting as
you corner. Plus the overall trend of a sharper turn / in. The transition from u/steer to o/steer
is just superb – a great achievement.
FORMULA C – Laguna Seca
I’m sure to embarrass myself with my comments on this but here goes anyway, I prefer
being honest..
I know AJ has been working on the FC and I love this car because it’s so driveable. We did
a batch of testing about a month ago and I thought the tyres were all very different with
some interesting directions.
I skipped through the newer A, B, C and R3 tyres – made some notes, and then struggled
to really spot the difference.. A VERY damning admission for a test driver..
To defend myself, perhaps I was searching for particular characteristics but I was surprised
not to get the kind of obvious steer that we have had previously. I also think that the tyres
have all gone up in grip generally so that in the high speed corners it feels far more settled
and therefore harder to judge. I can at least say that they were all good! (maybe too
good.?)
FC IN GENERAL
Superb transition from u/steer to o/steer. I would still like the car to be more aggressive on
exit with the traction. These small cars usually feel quite stiff and jumpy whereas the FC is
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really smooth and dare I say it.. too easy. There should be more twitch in the rear axle.
For some reason I really felt the steering was dead in the FC this time. I didn’t notice that
previously so I’m not sure if it’s connected to the build or not.
In general handling the FC feels great on all the tyres I tried and easier to drive than the
previous range of tyres. This is commendable, but I think I preferred some of the challenges
of the previous generation in coaxing the car through the fast sweepers after the
Corkscrew, where the rear was less forgiving but now the car is flat out.
Under braking the tyre is really controllable, allowing you to unlock it quickly which is vital.
Really my thoughts echo the 98T – with a little more emphasis on the fact that the FC feels
too easy to drive. Given that it handles so well I think we could afford to throw a wilder tyre
option into the mix that feels more unhinged (not low grip!) at the rear end so that it leaps
around more, and with a much stronger turn in. It’s almost impossible to spin the car by
turning in like an ape – when in RL this would be punished.
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JANUARY 2014
Ben Collins:
Project Cars Jan 3 – Formula A
Sensational new features!!
I gathered AJ had been working hard on the FA and because I see this as a ‘signature’
machine for Project Cars I’m delighted that it’s getting some serious loving. The new
handling of the Formula A reflects everything great about racing a real car, from the first
kiss of the brakes to riding the knife edge on the power, bouncing the kerbs and getting
the hammer down.
I’m not sure which tyre is meant to be what but here goes:
'Formula A' – tyre
As far as I can tell this is the premier tyre.
I began at Silverstone GP with the traction control accidentally turned on and found the
car very easy to drive, not surprisingly. Then I turned it off and unleashed a world of
wheelspin.
Low Speed
Traction – in the low speed corners (2nd gear) the traction is really quite loose and a little
hard to feel the breakaway point. It’s almost like driving in the wet at times. The handling
feels soft at low speed, and I’ve dialed the roll bar and springs as soft as I can to give me
more feel and more of a buffer than the Sim wants to give me, but I’ve run out of
adjustment and the car feels too soft even when it’s sliding. This is a minor criticism in the
bigger picture but I wonder if there’s a way to adjust in some more traction or an ideal set
up sheet that would fix my problem.
I should stress here that the FA is now so close to perfection that at last I believe the
solutions involve getting into the zone of fine tuning using the car set up. For me this is a
gigantic step forward and I’m so happy to see us there.
Medium speed rear traction
On the FA tyre there seems to be the right amount of aggression in the handling in the way
that it bites you if you take the piss. I would still like more tyre noise, engine note variation
and feedback in the steering wheel to help me feel that point but I suspect that the Sim
itself is now seriously accurate. (!)
At high speed
Good.
Turn in – I would still like even more turn in power, the turn in has improved but I still want a
little more to really believe I have full control. Still can't spin the car on corner entry by lifting
off and turning the wheel
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Braking – wow.
The braking grip is great on the tyre, so don’t drive on this one first and then drive the rest
like I did! Or maybe you should.
Braking is uber-reality in the Formula A now. Perhaps we could now benefit from some
gearbox chatter when you’re locking the rears but the dynamic handling is really excellent
and you can drive the hell out of the car on the threshold of braking grip. AWESOME.
Brake & Steer. I’ve banged on about the problem of combining braking and steering since
my first trial of this sim. And at a stroke this issue has been WIPED OUT! You can brake and
steer into the Esses at Imola and be in complete control, with little swipes of oversteer to
keep you honest. This is a superb step forward and I’m delighted to see it. The car feels
alive, alert and responsive throughout the entire lap
General handling feel
Front end: There is more nervousness in the car now, the sense of the nose gaining and
losing grip on corner entry. This is excellent if a touch crude at the moment – I love this
direction and would like to see more of it. Driving the car into a hairpin on the brakes you
can sense the sim pushing and pulling the amount of grip you have and this is just a minor
trim away from being very special. Please keep exploring this.
Rear end: We now have some of the nervousness before the big slide comes. You can start
to feel the car hop a touch before it lets loose in some situations but in others the rears
break free without warning. One major plus now is that using the correct racing line is
paying more dividends than previously, when it was best just to point the car straight and
tramp the gas. Now when make the car rotate in the mid corner of a slow corner the
transition from u/steer to oversteer is so good that you can drive progressively on the
throttle all the way out of the corner. SUPERB.
R0 Tyre
Oddly the top speed was instantly slower.
This tyre felt experimental with this really curious feature in the slide, where the car
recovered grip and tried to straighten itself up like it was attached to a giant elastic band. I
think I know where this has come from; which was my complaint about engineering more
grip into the car when it’s sliding.
I totally support this valiant experiment and am sure it is paying dividends in the way the
car is handling. It’s just that this tyre has too much of a good thing!
The car ducks in and out of grip quite quickly – the nervousness I’ve been requesting – but
at a lower grip threshold than the FA tyre which made braking tricky and traction pretty
lurid at times.
R1 Tyre
Back to the normal top speed.
A more extreme version of the R0 tyre
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It Felt like less grip and a greater disconnect in handling between front and rear so I found
it frustrating on the brakes and on traction, and my tyres boiled themselves up to 330
degrees which made the car undriveable after 2 corners!
Default Tyre
To me this felt different to the one labeled Formula A.
I found it awesome at first but then generally too forgiving in the slide. (If I read that note 4
months ago I would scarcely have believed it) You can get away with being really
aggressive and as a result it denies you the opportunity to be super smooth and skilful.
I felt this had slightly more grip than the FA tyre, but the car was too keen to help and
when I locked the rears it always pointed me towards the apex of the corner rather than
slipping around and making life difficult.
That said – this braking feature on this particular tyre is extremely well suited to the go kart!
And the go kart needs some love on the braking characteristics. The kart really should flick
sideways under late braking and you should be able to then catch it on the power and
drive out of the corner. In real life the sensation is quite exaggerated so I feel there is a
benefit to be taken here.
Summary
I returned to the “formula A” labeled tyre and loved it. It punishes mistakes but for the most
part the car is underneath you and totally driveable. A few tweaks on the traction side of
things and improvements to the feedback and I think we can rest on some well earned
laurels. Would love to know what the general consensus is on the FA now.
General points
I still feel the Sim punishes kerb hopping too much by killing the lap time
More street circuits please (Macau anyone?)
Happy New Year, can’t wait for the launch party
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback. BTW, being honest on difficulty on differentiating those FC tires is
actually very cool. I think that means you are less suspeptable to placebo effect, which is a
good thing, and probably due to your profession.
I just commited FA r2 and r3. Should be in an upcoming build. r2 was done before you
posted and introduces brake heat as being significant to tire heat. r3 is based on your
posted feedback here, and backs off of the "too much of an asked for thing" that r1 (and
r0) have.
Ben Collins:
Hi Andrew - been on hols but back in the saddle and delighted to hear of the progress
regards braking and the tempering of the 'good thing'!
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So on my next test run will the FC, FA, BMW Z4 GT3, LMPs - i wondered if there were any
other areas of recent activity? I'm always mindful of the go kart and wondered if my
comment above made sense to you and Casey regards driving it in on the brake?
Also i wondered what the status was for wet weather driving? The graphics are amazing
and i was keen to match the grip to the different conditions
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So, I am back! I arrived home a day later than I planned, as with the Hamilton Family, plans
change like the weather! :P
Anyway back to business!
This post is going to be based on Build 634+ and will cover the New Formula C and JPLM
Tyres.
So before I go onto my feedback about what I found, I wanted to say that I thought this
test was really interesting and cool, as in this round of testing with the FC, there were 2
variations of tyres which have been developed based on mine and Ben’s feedback,
resulting in both of us having our own tyre, mine being the R4 tyre and Ben’s being the R5
tyre.
Formula C
F3 Slick - R4 Tyre
So having read AJ notes HERE, I kept his comments in mind as I went through my testing
programme. There were some characteristics, which I felt had not been improved, such as,
the time it takes for the tyres to come in, but AJ’s comments explain the reason for this.
There are 2 main characteristics I found with this tyre and general balance of the car,
which were most noticeable. The first characteristic/change I felt was the improvement to
the chassis at the rear, which improves overall rear grip by decreasing rear rotation.
Compared to previous builds, the change to the rear has made the car sit a lot ‘flatter’
through the corner, which has taken away some of the snap and twitchiness resulting in
the car feeling a lot more planted and stable.
I feel that the change to the chassis has helped the car in one area, but maybe
affected/hindered it in another, (I cannot make my mind up). The reason why I say this is
because, the improvement to the car sitting/squatting more has made the overall
balance feel great, but as the car sits flatter on entry, it rotates less causing more
understeer, which to some people may be a downfall in the overall balance. Personally for
me, (which is why I cannot make my mind up) I feel that as the tyres heat up and get
closer to optimum, the improvement to the front bite of the tyre helps take away the entry
understeer and compliments the change/ improvement to the chassis.
As the change to the chassis has minimised entry rotation and has improved overall rear
grip, I have noticed that there is still a small amount of the ‘over rotation’ characteristic
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that was present in the previous ABC Tyre Test. The rotation issue this time I feel is at high
speed where you have to use a minimal amount of steering lock to turn the car otherwise
the rear will keep rotating. It is very hard to explain, as in some cases you can call it ‘over
rotation’, but you can also just say that it feels very sensitive and twitchy.
To explain it easier, the changes to the chassis has improved rear stability and minimised
rear rotation resulting in better overall behaviour and realism. Rear over rotation is still
present but at high speed when on power and turning through a corner, e.g. Cranner
Curves at Derby Park, where the smallest amount of steering lock is needed to turn the car
as the rear rotates for you, which causes unpredictability and inconsistency.
The second main characteristic I found with this tyre was how it behaved during the cold
tyre phase. As I said above, this tyre takes quite a long time to come in (longer than usual)
but as AJ said, this will eventually be corrected. In the cold tyre phase, the car feels more
twitchy on power than before with quite a lot of lateral rear instability when the outside of
the tyre is used, this causes lack of traction and more rotation from the rear, which is to be
expected. The lack of traction and lateral instability on the outside of the rear tyre is what I
feel still needs to be improved, as this time I feel that you have to be a lot more careful
when applying the power not just during the first lap or so, but for the first 4 laps until the
temperature comes up. Even when the tyre is at optimum, the tyre has quite a lot of
instability on the outside, which causes a lot of rear movement, slides, snaps etc. which I
feel should not be the case when at optimum temperature unless the car is set up for it to
happen. What I was beginning to notice was that once power has been applied to exit a
corner and traction from the middle part of the tyre has been created, the car sometimes
snaps and rotates if you are still turning during the exit of the corner. This is due to the
instability of the outside of the tyre combined with the small over rotation and sensitivity
issue that is present when on power and/or at high speed.
This then leaves me with just two suggested improvements, the first one being to go one
more step in softening the rear to try and minimise the high speed and on power over
rotation and twitchiness and the second improvement to increase the grip available to the
outside of the tyre when on power. Maybe doing both changes at the same time will
create too much grip, so I would try softening the chassis one more step first and then
changing the behaviour of the outside of the tyre later on if need be. What are everyone
else’s thoughts?
So what I really found interesting in this test was when I read Ben’s comments about the
previous ABC Tyres, saying they were too easy and he would like more instability etc.
Having read his comments about the FC, I have noticed that both Ben and myself are
asking for opposite characteristics. I am not sure what to think when reading his FC
comments as he was saying that he could not spin when turning in like a monster. I have
been and always have been getting the opposite feelings to him with this car it seems. I
have done some laps with his R5 tyre and personally find it quite undrivable at the limit and
would be very surprised if the car was to handle like it in Real Life. I am sure Ben knows
what he is doing and he has a lot more experience than me in Open Wheel cars, so it
would be good to get his comments on the tyre I asked for which was the R4 because to
me, R4 seems a lot more believable.
I would also like to get everyone’s thoughts on both R4 and R5 tyres as I am interested to
see what tyre people prefer. We may get to a stage where combining the 2 may be
everyone’s preferred option.
Palmer Jaguar JPLM
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JP Slick – R4 Tyre
So with this tyre I am not sure what to make of it. At first glance I am not sure whether we
have made a step forward with this tyre and instead have maybe taken one step back.
Whilst I was testing this tyre, I found it quite lazy and docile where it did not seem to want to
do much. When cold, this tyre to me feels too forgiving on the rear with too much rear
traction and stability mid corner. There is a break of traction and movement from the rear
when cold on the out lap, but more of a snap on first instance I feel is needed.
In a nutshell, I feel that the front tyres need more initial bite to make the front more pointy
and aggressive on turn in, with the rear having less traction when cold but to have the
same amount of grip that it currently has at optimum. The lack of front tyre bite is the let
down with this tyre at the moment as the grip level does not seem to improve from cold to
optimum. The lack of front bite for the first couple of corners I feel is where it should be, but
I think that an increase in front bit afterwards from corner to corner on the out lap should
be added if possible.
As I felt that I was struggling, trying to get the car to work on this tyre, I tried Ben’s FC - R5
Tyre as I thought that it would loosen the car up to some extent due to the nature of the
tyre. I personally did not feel much of a change or improvement. The R5 still felt very lazy on
the front but with a little less grip on the rear. I know from driving this car in real life a couple
of years ago that front initial bite is very good as well as a good amount of traction, but
due to the car feeling so lazy on the front with the JP-R4 tyre, I would grip up the front tyre
and take it out of the rear.
Great job AJ I hope this helps, the changes to the FC are great and I think we are getting
very close with this car now, I am just interested in yourself and other peoples comments
about the R4 and R5 Tyre.
Do you have any previous tyre revisions that we used for the JPLM? I would like to test some
of the previous tyres and compare them to the JP-R4 as it has been a while since I have
driven the car and have sort of forgotten how the previous ABC Tyres felt. I have gone over
my past posts about the tyres, but I would prefer to do a back to back test. If you think that
I have given you enough on this car without having to do go over previous revisions, then
that’s fine, I just wanted to get the tyre as good and as accurate as possible.
Thanks guys,
Nic
Andrew Weber:
The FC, while clearly "F3 like" is not necessarily an F3 clone. The are plenty of classes in
racing without a single spec tire, but rather a selection of approved tires. We could, if we
want, provide two tire "brands", so long as we are still "FC" and not "F3".
No problem on the JPLM. Don't hold any punches. If it is a step back, it is a step back. It is
like setting up a car. Sometimes it goes the wrong way. No problem. We go back to last
best known, and try some other changes from there.
Everything is at least revision controlled (we can get back to any tire we ever did), and
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most recent tire revisions are even still sitting in the tire file for even easier reference.
Oh yeah, Nic, you can do that softer rear test without me doing anything at all, so you
don't need to wait for an update. Simply soften the rear in the setup. Mostly springs and
RARB are probably enough to see if this can be done all in chassis. Then, if that is not
enough, we can do the tire adjustment.
At some point, as you can tell, we might get into chasing setup issues with tire design. At
that point we might be better off shifting some focus back onto setup, which we are
dancing with now on the FC.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Cool ok, I will have a play with setup and see what I come up with. is there anything else
this week you would like me to look at?
Also, I have noticed that FFB is really low at the moment even with it set to 100 FBB and 100
Tire Force, am I meant to be using a Tweaker File at this point, I am using nothing at the
moment and feel FFB is way too low.
Lastly and this is a question to everyone else also... Does anyone struggle with over sensitive
brake locking when ABS is switched off?
I mentioned this a while back, as I felt that hitting the brakes as you would in Real Life
instantly locks the wheels. You can get around the brake locking by progressively applying
the brake, but this is not realistic in my eyes. I remember speaking to Casey about this and
he said its down to my pedals and that I can add springs to make the pedals stiffer to get
around the sensitivity, but I do not think that Casey understood exactly what I meant,
because when I drove iRacing last year, using the Vesaro Sim with the same Wheel and
Pedals I have, (Fanatec CSW) the braking phase I felt was a lot more realistic.
Obviously, it is very hard to replicate how a brake pedal feels in real life, as there are so
many different cars with so many different pedals, so replicating the pressure and stiffness
of a racing brake pedal is out of the question, but replicating the physics and behaviour of
the car when braking will be perfect and possible.
In real life, different cars have different brakes which require different amounts of pressure
produced by your leg to get the car to stop. This is why I have to train my legs so hard,
(especially my left leg) as due to my condition, my legs are a lot weaker than able-bodied
legs. So this year I need to be able to push 60-70 Bar of pressure with my left leg to stop my
race car, obviously this would not be the case for Pcars, but the behaviour of the car is
what I am trying to get at. So, lets say 60 Bar minimum is required in real life, if you pushed
70 then the car will stop very well with no issues, if you pushed 120, then the car would just
lock up straight away as too much pressure is applied.
During the braking phase, the first initial 'Hit' of the pedal will be the strongest, which after
then will slowly decrease as you start to 'bleed off' the brake to roll the car into the corner.
As the car starts to slow down, if you do not 'bleed off' of the brake and instead keep the
same initial pressure, then the wheels will start to lock, this normally happens right at the
end of the braking phase when you sometimes go just over the limit of braking. Being on
the limit under braking can also be felt as the car starts to squirm and move, but not
actually lock, which is a great feeling as you start to learn where the limit of braking is,
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meaning you can be confident to brake as late as possible and know what the car is
going to do. (Squirming at the limit of braking would be hard to replicate.)
At the moment with Pcars, the initial 'Hit' of the brake pedal, near enough locks the wheels
straight away, where it should only happen either, at the end of the braking phase if you
have not 'bled off' of the brake, or you applied too much pressure straight away.
I would take this factor out of braking for Pcars, as judging brake pressure on basic gaming
pedals is very hard, the braking technique of 'hit hard' and 'Bleed off' should be the most
important technique for braking.
When I drove iRacing, hitting the pedal hard, did not lock the wheels, it was only if I kept
the same pressure at the end of the braking phase that they started to lock, which is
correct as the 'Hit hard' and 'Bleed off' technique was needed.
What are everyones thoughts, you all may think I am talking a load of rubbish, as you may
not find this a problem, but having driven iRacing without ABS with no problems and then
locking brakes everywhere with Pcars, I feel that there is room for improvement in this area
for us.
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
AJ, what are your thoughts on the current FFB, shall I be using a tweaker file?
Andrew Weber:
ou can use a tweaker if you have to, but I'd rather react to your feedback on that and
adjust the default, so long as you are already at 100%s.
If you do use a tweaker, delete it when I do updates, so you are testing the default for us
again. J
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
It seems like no one has given any feedback on the FC and the R4 and R5 tyres, what do
you guys think of them and how would you guys like to see it developed. I personally do
not think it is all about being what myself and Ben want, as the car also needs to suit the
general public and not only pro racing drivers. I have done a lot of laps with the car today
and have been playing around with setup to see how we can improve the over rotation
issue I have been talking about for a while.
The car is very interesting to me at the moment, as it is very unpredictable, but predictable
at the same time. Today I have been playing around with settings to help generate more
grip on the rear. What I have found today is that a lot of the instability is on the outside of
the rear tyre, both on power on exit and mid corner off power. I found that through high
speed corners, the car is very stable as you roll the car in 'off throttle' and does not seem to
have an issue on power at the exit. When you get to slow speed corners e.g. Druids at
Brands Hatch, there is no bite from the tyre under braking and not a lot of initial bite on
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entry, so there is a lot of lazy mid corner understeer, which seems to go on for ever. As I said
last week in my blog about the R4 and R5 tyres, there does not seem to be enough rear
outside stability on the tyre, so this means that you can spin the rears up when turning to
get the rear to slide and move to help the front turn. This is what I found was the best and
fastest way to get around Druids and that to me is very unrealistic, as I was just power
sliding my way through the corner.
That being said, there is some positives with being able to power slide, because this means
that the tyre is controllable when it does start to slide, which was never the case a couple
of months back. I had a look at the video Ben posted on his Thread with the Formula
Renault 2.0 around Spa and to me it looks like the tyre has imediate initial bite, but then has
understeer and push in the middle of the turing phase. It seems that most of the instability is
created when speed is trying to be carried through the corner 'off throttle', so as he gets off
the brakes and rolls the car in, the instability is caused by the limit of the rear tyre being
reached. On power, the car seems very planted and stable with hardly no movement and
no power sliding.
With the FC at the moment, it seems that as the car turns, it falls off the outside edge of the
tyre quite easily, with no warning of slight instability if the limit of the tyre is reached. I think
being able to power slide and easily catch the car is due to the tyres being controllable as
I said, but also maybe too controllable in the middle part of the tyre, as it seems that the
outside is what causes the car to snap and move, and then the middle part grips up and
saves it from rotating any further, which I think should be the opposite way round with the
middle part causing the instability and the outside (when warm) stopping the rotation.
As I have also said before and I know AJ is working on this, but cold tyres do not seem to
have the feeling of heat progression. The car is like driving on ice for the first lap, but does
not seem to improve until the tyres get to 170 on the rear and at least 175-180 on the fronts.
There is no improvement in feeling of grip as the tyres slowly heat up. The front tyres also
take longer to heat up than the rears, which is to be expected, but as the rears get to
temperature, you have to wait too long for the fronts to come in (about 3 laps more) which
should be 1 lap, 1.5 max. I know AJ already knows this and is working on it, but I am just
giving my feedback. J
Give me all your thoughts on the tyres and car anyway, its not all about what myself and
the Stig think! J
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Nice feedback. I think this clearly says what we need to try. Less "load sensitivity", which
translates to "less tack". The FC r4 is pretty high tack...one of the highest tack tires in the
game, relatively. More tack means more load sensitivity, which means less "grip" per "load"
as load goes up. Your "wrong" under braking case would be fixed by more front bite under
more front load, which means more deformation grip and less tack. Your "wrong" exit case
would be fixed by more grip under acceleration, so again, more grip on the loaded tires,
so less tack and more deformation grip. The mid corner balanced case, with the least
peak load, needs less grip overall, which we also get with less tack and more deformation.
In other words, currently, the rubber is too sticky, but is not squishy enough.
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We can experiment with this right away though, especially if this specific feedback is
based more on r4, because r5 /IS/ a lower tack tire. It is still high tack, so it may still have the
issues you are talking about, but it is lower than r4. The question is, does r5 have less of this
issue than r4? If so, the balance between tack and deformation is what we should work on
right now.
Note another side effect of less tack is the balance of the car will shift towards oversteery.
This is again because of the load sensitivity. With the less load sensitivity of the less tack, the
bigger rear tires get a little less benefit from being bigger...so the balance shifts towards
oversteer. So you may need to re balance your setup to compare r4 and r5 properly.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so today has been continued tyre testing on the Formula C, comparing both the R4
and R5 tyres back to back. As you guys can see from the previous posts above, AJ and
myself have been discussing which way to go with the tyres and are now working on
finding the correct balance between ‘tack’ and ‘deformation’
My last post was pretty much based on the R4 tyre as I did a lot of laps with it and gave my
full thoughts and feedback. Previously I did not really enjoy the R5 tyre, mainly because I
found it very wild and erratic, especially during the cold tyre phase, which seemed to go
on forever, as tyre heating and grip progression I feel is quite a way off at the moment. Due
to the heating phase not being at an accurate level at the moment, I took that property
out of my testing for today and have purely focussed on tyre behaviour.
As you guys will read in the previous posts between AJ and myself, we are now at a stage
of testing, to see if there are characteristics in both R4 and R5 tyres, which we can then put
together into one. Both tyres have their pros and cons, but one tyre compliments another,
as a pro with one tyre can be a con in the other.
FC – R5 Tyre
So this tyre I find is a great variation to have ‘sitting’ next to R4, as it is very similar in some
areas, but completely different in others. With this tyre, I have purely aimed at what
balance the tyre gives to the car, from grip under braking, to balance on entry, mid corner
and exit, as well as balance in high, low and medium speed corners, and so on.
General Balance
During the cold tyre phase, R4 is manageable, even with a lack of grip all round, whereas
the R5 tyre is pretty rough with hardly no traction anywhere, with no progression in grip
level from lap to lap, which makes you feel like you are driving on ice. Once the tyres get
to temperature, the difference in balance is improved dramatically and feels a lot closer to
R4.
The general balance on this tyre is not too far away from R4, I do not feel that there is a
much overall grip with this tyre, but there is a certain feeling you get from it that makes the
tyre feel more realistic in comparison to R4. Under braking, this tyre is practically the same
as R4, with not a lot of bite to help slow the car down or to give you the feeling of the tyre
gripping up to stop the car. In slow speed corners, the initial entry bite is near enough the
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same with a lot of front push and tyre scrub mid corner, which all copies R4. Exits with this
tyre I think is an improvement compared to R4, as it feels like it has less overall grip when
power is applied, but this means that you have to drive more realistically with throttle
modulation. The R4 had a lot less outside grip when on power, but a lot more grip in the
middle of the tyre off power, which made sliding and catching/ power sliding way too
common and easy.
The added throttle modulation gives you more feel to the tyre, this tyre has less grip and
traction in the middle, but more on the outside, which I feel is more realistic. As the middle
and outside of the tyre is sort of the opposite way round to R4, it allows you to feel where
the grip/limit of the tyre is on exit, as the right technique will give you good traction and
feel to the outside of the tyre, but too much throttle and sometimes the wrong technique,
will spin up and/or go over the tyre limit, causing snap oversteer. I personally feel that with
this tyre, there is still not enough traction when they are at optimum but the behaviour of
the middle and outside parts of the tyre I think is better.
This tyre is more oversteery than R4, there is more rear (on power) rotation through high
speed corners, which can make the rear more unpredictable and sometimes
uncontrollable. The outside ‘fall off’ affect that you get with the R4 tyre is still present, but
with R5 there is a sensitive spot in steering lock to where the car will rotate and ‘fall off’ the
tyre. What I mean by this is that with the R4, the rotation ‘fall off’ is not caused by steering
input and instead is caused by stability of the outside of the tyre through load, whereas
because the R5 tyre creates more rotation, you have to use less lock as the more lock you
use, the more the car will rotate and ‘fall off’ or snap. To put it simply, the rear tyres of R5
seem to create more oversteer and rotation, which makes the car more sensitive and
sometimes nervous. I found that running more rear wing and softening the rear Sway Bar
helped in settling the rear through high speed, but the nervousness was still there.
Lastly, through high speed (on power) the front tyres have a little more understeer/ more
push and less entry bite than R4, but through medium speed corners during the ‘roll in’ or
‘free wheel’ phase, the added rotation helps the front turn with stability through the corner
being the same as R4, which is good.
So overall, it is a tough one, R4 has more overall grip both during cold and at optimum. It is
quite unrealistic due to grip available in different parts of the tyre allowing you to adopt an
unrealistic driving style. It has better front initial entry bite, as well as better mid corner bite
with less push. There is less rotation but a tendency of tyre ‘fall off’. R5 allows you to adopt
a more realistic driving style, giving you more feeling of what the rear of the tyre is doing on
exit and allowing you to feel the middle and outside grip of the tyre. I would say that R4 is
overall the better tyre, but is unrealistic in its characteristics of rear tyre behaviour and grip
levels, therefore I would put the rear tyres of R5 together with the front tyres of R4 and then
make changes from there.
What are your thoughts guys?
Thanks
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
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Ok so, I just wanted to do a quick post to give Casey some feedback, as he asked me
what my thoughts were with the new Brake Tech, which he added and asked me to try it
out on the BMW Z4 GT3.
Brake Test – BMW Z4 GT3 – Belgian Forest
So, Casey told me that the new brake tech which he added at the back end of last week,
he felt was a good step forward in ‘brake feel’, which linked with the post I did HERE talking
about ‘over-sensitive locking’ etc.
I have to agree with Casey and say that it really has made a massive improvement in
‘brake feel’, I have always been a fan of the BMW Z4 GT3 and the new brake tech has
made me like it even more. What is most impressive so far with the ‘brake feel’ is that the
over sensitive lock has completely gone and has been swapped for realistic brake locking.
What I like at the moment is that you can ‘Slam’ your foot on the brake pedal and then
modulate off too stop the brakes from locking. This all adds the factor of ‘braking
technique’ from the driver, which I think is very important as if you keep applying the
pressure throughout the braking phase, then locking is inevitable, which is just what I was
explaining last week.
The new brake tech really allows you to feel what the car is doing under braking which is
very important. I found myself playing around with different brake pressures to see if I could
get the brakes to feel even more realistic, but to suit my way of braking. I was using the
Default Setup for the car, which had 80% brake pressure, some people may find 80% too
strong or weak, but this depends on how you like your brakes to feel. I personally found it
too strong, as I felt I was stopping the car too much and locking the front tyres more than I
had liked. I tried lowering the pressure to 70% as I felt that with this pressure setting, you
could apply more initial brake power to get the car to stop without locking up, which felt
more realistic from my experience. The lower pressure basically increased the window from
where you apply the initial pressure to how long it takes before the tyres lock. As well as
changing the percentage of the brake pressure, I played around with brake bias, which I
felt made a great difference in the balance of the car and for me makes it even more
realistic as these factors have become even more important.
Overall, it has been a huge improvement, personally for me, it has made brake
balance/setup a lot more crucial in the overall balance of the car, which is how it should
be and has only enhanced realism. I now feel that the general feel of the brakes are at a
very good level, which then leaves it down to the drivers to tweak and adjust them to how
they want the brakes to feel and how they want them to change the balance of the car.
It makes the driver think more about the braking technique and will become even more of
a factor during long races with regard to prolonging tyre life by not locking up, not
overdriving and hopefully (if added) flat spots and tyre degradation. I do not think that the
brakes need to be over thought or over adjusted from Casey’s side, because there is a
great base to where users can work from to adjust the feel to suit them.
Great Job dude!
Nic J
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EDIT: One thing I just thought of. Would it be possible to add squirming under braking when
the limits of braking are being reached? I have tried to add movement under braking by
going rearwards on bias, but this feels more like instability and not the 'on the limit' feel.
Nicolas Hamilton:
I just want to add the the above post by saying that the general balance of the BMW Z4
GT3 is awesome, especially with the new brake tech, you can feel every bit of movement
from the car. My only point of improvement is the heating model, I am not sure if Casey
has looked into the cold tyre phase yet or not, but to me it seems that the grip is instantly
there from pit exit. Other than grip on cold tyres etc, the balance is great.
Casey have you looked into the heating phase at all or is it on your 'to do list'?
Casey Ringley:
On the short term list, yes. I'm doing some tests first to try and iron out the vibrations that the
GT3 tires are prone to at low speed. That's almost sorted out now, so more heat work will be
happening soon. Agreed that they are too good when cold.
Very glad to hear I wasn't imagining the braking improvements! Many thanks for your post
that brought up the topic of braking feel; this improvement was almost relegated to a
future game before that. Turned out to be a simple addition that is already showing big
benefits.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Just done a few laps in the Mclaren MP4-12C GT3 and its pretty awesome, quite a bit of
lazy understeer mid corner causing you to be really patient and not really allowing you to
carry the speed into the corner, as it feels like the front tyres just give up. It is really easy to
overheat the fronts also, but I will go into all of this in my next blog. Just wanted to say that
the balance is very nice, there are just finer details now that need to be picked on to
improve it e.g. Cold tyre phase, mid-corner bite from the front tyres and so on.
Will go into more detail soon.
Good job though, the car feels great.
Nic
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FEBRUARY 2014
Ben Collins:
Project Cars – Feb 2014
FA, FC, Z4 GT3, RWD P30 LMP, Caterham R500
Casey Notes:
Actually, the Asano LM11 and RWD P30 LMP cars have the update too, and the carboncarbon heating model is pretty good for them. Might be worth testing them against your
experience there at the same time, Ben.
Andrew Weber: The FC has two new tires for you now, r6&r7. They are identical to each
other except for how they do their heating. However, since heating in our model is critical
to feel and behavior, not just overall grip level, they feel different. They also manage
different, in that how you can heat them, and back off and cool them, is a little different.
TGI Friday.
I’ve completed some testing, survived some intensive care with a few of the more
experimental tyre compounds and I hope to provide some useful gut feeling on where we
are vs real life racing.
LMP
Having raced LMP (in P1 and P2) on and off for ten years this is a category I hold close to
my heart and have been waiting for the PCARS Sim to live up to the glory I know that it can
achieve. I’m delighted to report that the recent changes feel, to me, like the move from
analog to digital, the car is awesome.
Audio – the new engine note is much, much better than the lazier drone of the early model
and I know that sounds a little like judging a book by the cover but I don’t care because I
rely on engine note to drive. Don’t be fooled – The Stig never listens to music, other than
the piston variety.. boom boom, tish.
Vision – I much prefer the cockpit view and can now see where I’m going. Laugh all you
like at my caveman observations of the past, but I did finally work out how to move the
POV! This view is much, much better and it feels like home whereas previously I felt the
cockpit was in the way and the POV was somehow shrunk to fit. There’s more depth and
more feel – a bit like the contrast between the good view of the Formula A vs the lesser
view of the Formula B.
Engine – the power band feels like it’s longer, I might be imagining that but I prefer having
a longer power band to work with, so it’s a thumbs up.
General handling – I find it crisp, responsive and easily controllable.
Traction – I’m happiest about the controllable power, which is an improvement and the
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car is usable in the drift at low and medium speed.
Negatives:
Braking – even with 100% brake pressure I can’t lock the tyres, so something must be amiss?
Braking grip is about right in terms of stopping distance, but obviously we need to be able
to overcook it.
Turn in – I would like more turn-in power. The Formula C is a good comparison on this (see
below) where the dev team have achieved a high end of turn in power, such that you
can lose control. I would like to have that opportunity in the LMP.
I tried max front wing and dialed back the rear wing and played with some stiffness settings
but no dice.
Other notes: the car spins the inside wheel over apex kerbs – this would not happen in real
life at these speeds and it would be good to try and rectify if possible. In reality the kerb
should hook the car around the corner and assist rotation, moving to oversteer in a neutral
car depending on the corner etc. At times the kerbs really upset the car
The car has too much power understeer – this is a trend I note below on the FC also.
Formula C
My thoughts on the FC are rooted in my experience of Formula Renault and Formula
Vauxhall which I believe are close to this little beauty. Very proud of the handling on the
FC, the dev team are doing some great work here.
I believe I figured out the discrepancy between my feedback and Nic’s as far as turn in
goes, with me calling for turn in and Nic reporting instability on t/in. I think its to do with the
issue of braking and turning into the corner at the same time. The FC does turn in better
than most, but I would still like more turning power when I want it – on turn in and
continuing from mid corner. The reason the FC feels unstable as Nic has observed (I think –
tell me different if I misread this Nic!) is because it loses rear stability under trail braking, or
even engine braking, and the rear steps out on turn in: QED it feels like the car is rotating
too much when you steer. But I believe it’s a braking problem, one that we fixed on the
Formula A.
I should point out that I was unable to cycle through the FC tyres in the ‘Time Trial’ mode,
only in practise mode. In fact I just re-visited this and found that I was unable to save the
selected tyre at all this time round so something weird is up here.
On the other cars I was able to do this and the tyres loaded at operating temps straight
away. Per the original notes I made here’s the best that I can manage.
Default tyre (which the settings on my system keep crashing back to)
In time trial mode, on hot tyres – the car feels excellent. The only issue I have with it is that
you cannot combine braking & steering or else the car spins and I know we can address
that given the handling of the FA.
Handling: once you drive around the brake & steer issue, the car enters high speed corners
quite well, and really does well into medium speed corners. I drove at Brands GP & Imola
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and the bumps and drops are very realistic in the FC.
The car then develops understeer especially at high speed at corners like Paddock, which
is a little frustrating. It would be great to get more of a balance on the throttle and keep
the car on a knife edge all the way through the turn.
It does do this at Graham Hill Bend but I get the feeling there is something in the Sim
registering u/steer on the FC and the LMP at times when we could do without it.
On COLD TYRES.. the car is all over the place. The Formula Renault takes a while to build it’s
optimum heat profile for a lap time, I think it takes about 3 or 4 laps, but you are fully on it
by the end of the first lap. In F3 you would be up to temp and fully lit by the end of the out
lap, certainly by the second pass of the pits. On the FC the car has very low grip and it
takes too long to build temps and build grip. Even at stone cold temperatures you would
have more than the Sim is giving us and I spent a lot of time in the gravel.
I think we are overstating the cold tyres effect and personally I would prefer to be up to
speed much faster. I don’t know what the rest of you feel.
Previous notes - I don’t fully trust them anymore because I can’t replicate them in the
settings menu, but here goes:
R4.. the car had big understeer, low braking grip, low traction and was like driving on ice
on cold tyres - it liked to flip onto its roof when i understeered out of corners like Graham Hill
R5 – ice rink
R6 – this felt like a good wet lap. It was drivable in a straight line (certainly by comparison
to R5) but had very little grip in the corners. For wet weather driving this is accurate
because it should be pretty stable on the straights but with reduced cornering ability –
however you did this is worth noting because we want to avoid a total reduction in ALL
grip for the wet. Cornering should suffer the most, but longitudinal grip and braking is less
affected.
R7 – fun! An even better wet lap. Less traction but it was user friendly and if you enter the
corner too fast you spin which is just how it should be. This is how it feels to drive a wet lap in
one of these.
Formula A
I love driving this..
Default tyre.
My heart sank when I drove the default. The turn in was poor, it lacked feel, it u/steered in
mid corner, the braking grip was gone and the front tyres felt wooden. Fortunately faith
was restored shortly afterwards by..
FA tyre
This tyre is almost perfect. The car has tons of feel in the braking area, crisp turn in, no brake
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& steer instability and it has a phenomenal level of feedback through the steering.
The traction out of low speed corners is improved also. I had kind of accepted that the Sim
might not be able to support a gradual drive, and gradual slip into oversteer on corner exit
– but on the FA tyre I’m not so sure anymore because I’m starting to drive it normally now.
From my perspective that is the final piece of gold we could strive for, just matching that
transition on the throttle as the car sets into yaw with the vicious snap.
(previously I described the ideal as the rear tyres twitching into shorter sharper shocks, and I
think the FA tyre is a step closer to that)
I would still like more TURN IN power, the ability to make the car slide on turn in if I want it to
by shoving the steering hard.
R0 tyre. Unstable with no braking grip or traction, worse than default.
R1 bad u/steer and vicious snap o/steer
R2 no grip
R3 insane low grip but midly more predictable because it seemed to have more FFB for
some reason. A note on FFB, it still works back to front by going from light to heavy when
the car slides but I still find it a useful guide.
R4 – quite positive but it has reduced front braking grip and less traction. That said it's really
cool to drive because you have to train your braking foot and the understeer teaches you
to be smooth. It gives a great comparison to my favourite, that clearly being the FA, which
has superb brakes , awesome brake release and you can just drive the hell out of it.
I wasn’t sure how much energy was going into the other tyre compounds, for me it feels
like the FA and the R4 are where it's at but i will spend more time on the others if they are
relevant
BMW GT3
Slick Soft
I’ve commented previously on the superb nature of this car. The recent changes seem to
be a step back on a couple of points:
1. you cannot combine brake and steer – both into high speed corners and at lower
speeds or on change of direction. It used to do this beautifully so I don’t know what
happened there
2. can’t lock the brakes
The traction / power application is excellent but without the natural corner entry it’s not
driving the way it used to.
As before the Hard tyre has the same characteristics at a lower grip threshold which falls
below what the real thing feels like. c
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Caterham R500
The grip threshold feels too low and it generates wheelspin in the straights which it makes it
quite a challenge!
The car is more controllable in the drift, BUT once sliding the snap back in the other
direction as grip returns is powerful and extremely hard to control.
I find the nose wanders around a bit too much which in conjunction with the instability (grip
wise) makes it hard to hold a steady course and get cosy in the corners.
Brand Hatch
Finally a note on the track – super job. Westfield feels a little tighter than I remember it,
ahem, and I think we might feel the apex bumps at Clearways a little more but the rhythm
is bang on. I was especially impressed with Surtees on the Indy circuit where the team have
done a mega with the camber changes and the general layout.
Conclusion: it would be great to eliminate the brake & steer phenomenon from the Sim
and i think we should discuss the cold tyres situation, as i feel this is being overplayed - it
made the Formula C feel like an F3000 ! We have a little work on the kerbs but i noticed
that the FA on the FA tyre hooked in on the kerbs quite well. And please can we be
allowed to run wide on the track without being penalised? The track marshall is v v cross
with me
That aside - the LMP and the FA are just mega, and from those platforms i think we are
close to nailing the final details.
Have an awesome weekend!
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback. This time around the FC between you and Nic is a lot closer to the
same...although even before I think it was not really so far apart. The same changes
helped both of you. I trail brake a lot...probably even when I should lean towards threshold
braking. That is probably because I still race rear brake only karts. Anyway, I have my
pedals adjusted "just right" for me, and in real life I use pretty bitey brake pads and trail
brake them anyway, with low pressure (IOW, I like to modulate with low foot pressure). So
my style may be making the FC trail braking tricky in spite of me trail braking a lot, due to
my taste. I'll adjust and try to make trail braking work better with a little more foot.
OK, so for FA I have a pretty good idea where to go next. That r4 is that close to your
favorite already (r4 being a pretty new approach) is good news.
Casey Ringley:
Very nice stuff, Ben. You and Nic have both keyed in on a couple of things about the
current LMP or GT3 tires which I don't like either. Last change fixed some things, but took a
step back in other areas as a result. It's on my list for the next pass and these notes will help
out a lot.
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Ben Collins:
Thats great to know and especially that our line of communication is so clear.
1. Interesting that you mention go karts - i totally agree the kart should be aggressive at the
rear under braking and per my notes above, i felt you were delivering this in some of the FA
tyre models - can this characteristic be brought onto the kart?
2. Re the FA tyres - the R4 is more predictable because it u/steers but i don't believe that
should be the direction. The FA tyre just needs that bit more turning power, and a little
more sympathy when the slip turns into slide (o/steer) - we are still a little on the savage
side, but so so close. I'm advocating either a grippier rear as it begins to slide, or shorter
bursts of o/steer that we can try to control with opposite lock.
Looking forward to the next test!
Andrew Weber:
The kart may get some more visits before the end, but I am guessing the kart will be the last
to finalize. Every little change in the model itself changes the kart more than anything else.
So finalizing the kart can only really be done when the model is done done for pCars 1. But
yeah, one goal of the kart is to get that aggressive rear-only braking without making it
unnaturally spinny. We've seen glimpses of it already, but lost it as the model itself
changed, and I did not adjust parameters to get it back. So I think we can do it when the
time comes.
With r4 tires, are they still understeering for you when up to temperature and without the
fronts overheated? The tire warmers do not have them completely up to ideal temp, and if
you let it understeer on the out lap, the fronts might overheat before the rears get to ideal.
I've found you have to carefully outlap the FA in general to have balance when the tires
get that last bit of heat. My out laps on the FA tend to have a little snap with the wheel, but
without grinding the fronts through corners, and a pretty aggressive right foot, sliding the
rear around.. Almost Alonso out lap like.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
This post is going to be based on Build 656 and will cover the Formula C and the new R6
and R7 tyres.
So, I just want to say that I am in a very happy mood as I write this, as I have just finished
some long runs on both the R6 and R7 tyres and I think we have made a really good step
forward. As both tyres are good, comparing them becomes even more difficult as neither
of them have ‘bad’ characteristics about them, instead, there are just a few things that
one tyre does better than the other and vice versa
Both tyres are at a really good level in my eyes, there is grip progression during the cold
tyre phase, where you can feel the rears starting to grip up and hold through high speed
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corners, with the fronts gradually improving in initial entry bite.
Before I go on to comparing both tyres, I want to start by talking about the feeling of the
chassis and how it is behaving, which I feel is affecting the overall balance. As you all know
from previous builds and in the early stages of this car, we had issues with ‘Over-rotation’,
which I felt was due to the rear being too stiff. Previously the issue in rotation occurred
during the mid to exit phase of a corner, which made the rear snap causing a lot of
instability and unpredictability. As both the R6 and R7 tyres are at a better level to where
they produce better overall grip and the fact that AJ has already gone one step in
softening the rear, this rotation issue is a lot more ‘tame’ and manageable with the tyres
gripping up really well and making snap oversteer moments controllable. This all being
said, I still feel that ‘over rotation’ is still present and is still a minor issue, but this time on entry
to medium and high speed corners. If you read my last blog about the Ginetta G55 and
how braking and applying steering lock affects the car’s balance in a big way by causing
the rear rotate, well it gives you the same sort of feeling, but without trail braking and
applying steering lock, (Without provoking it).
The over rotation I feel gives you an unrealistic change in balance as well as sometimes
giving you inaccurate turning power to were the rear over rotates for you, giving you a
more positive front end. As this happens, it takes away the factor of using the aero of the
front wing, which is what makes single seaters in general corner better than any other type
of car. Although the rotation on entry takes away some of the feeling of the areo, through
high speed corners as well as mid-corner of medium speed corners, the feeling of the areo
helping the car is present and feels very nice.
In a nutshell, I feel that the rear is still a little too stiff even with the car set to soft. My main
aim/point is to minimise the ‘unprovoked rotation on entry to medium and slow speed
corners and instead let the aerodynamics of the car work harder to give more of the
feeling of the areo pulling you through the corner, which is present already.
F3 Slick – R6
This tyre I feel has brought improvements to its behaviour during the ‘cold tyre phase’ with
minimal amounts of grip out of the pits, which require careful application from both the
throttle and steering. This tyre compared to R5 in the past has less of a wild snap when cold
but can snap if the wrong technique is used during the cold phase, which improves
realism. In terms of grip progression, this tyre does have a minor increase in feeling
throughout thought the first lap, but it is not until mid-way through lap 2 that the grip starts
to really increase/change. Once the tyres have reached optimum temperature, I think the
car feels the best it has ever had, with a lot more consistency to the tyre, which gives
consistency to the overall balance from lap to lap.
The only characteristic I would improve at the moment is to increase the initial bite of the
front tyres through slow and medium speed corners, as there seems to be a lot of
laziness/understeer with a feeling of the tyre not biting on entry or holding on through the
corner. To put it more simply, through hairpins, full lock needs to be used and even then it
feels that the fronts just float and do not bite, taking the car forever to turn. The feeling
through medium speed is a little different as there is some sort of initial entry bite, but with a
lot of wash mid corner, again taking forever for the car to turn.
F3 Slick R7
So personally, I do not feel that there are any big changes in comparison to R6, only the
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fact that the tyres heat up a lot faster, giving you pretty much instant grip after the first
coupe of corners. Performance wise, after the shortened ‘cold tyre phase’ has finished, the
tyre feels the same as R6 with the same behaviour e.g. lazy front bite but good all round
stability and traction, but the tyres do tend to go off quite quickly with a tendency to
overheat after 2 – 3 flying laps.
The way I see both of these tyres is that, as one takes longer to heat up than the other, it
almost simulates tack and air temperature with the hotter conditions allowing the tyres to
come in faster, but drop off faster too. If I was going to pick a tyre based on the feeling of
the cold tyre phase and the time it takes to come in etc. I would chose R6 as this has a
more realistic timeframe and behaviour, but I would not count R7 out because we do
need to add in the characteristic of tyres heating up faster and going off sooner in hot
whether and vice versa.
All in all, this car is really starting to impress me, with more realistic tyre phases, to more
realistic tyre and chassis behaviour, resulting in improvements to the overall balance and
overall consistency. Front tyre bite and the over rotation issue is what I would look into
improving for the future.
Great work!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
I sound like a broken record here, but great feedback. Again. J
Sounds like I need to hit the chassis some now. The front bite increase cannot be done in
the tire alone without making the over rotation even worse.
So r8 will come with some chassis changes, which likely means you will have to redo r6 and
r7 again on the new chassis, so we have a better picture on what the r8 tire actually does.
BTW, that you feel little difference at temperature between r6 and r7 tells me something
else too. J You drive clean and tidy, riding right near peak slip angle most of the time.
Purposely over-drive and you'll feel them behave quite different. Small mistakes do not feel
much different, but if you purposely make big mistakes, they are different.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so I have finally sorted out my internet and now have been able to download the latest
builds. So as I said on Friday, this post is going to be based on Build 664 and will cover the
Formula A with a run through of the current tyres available for the car.
Track: Sakitto GP
Mode: Free Practice
Formula A
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Ok so firstly, I have not driven this car in a while, as I have been focussing on the Formula C
and GT3 cars/ tyres and knew that Ben has been doing a lot of work on this car.
Formula A
This tyre I find gives the car a good general balance, it has a decent amount of traction
but this requires modulation and technique otherwise there is a lot of wheel spin and snap.
There is good stability through high-speed with the rear tyres producing a good amount of
grip when under load. Under braking, locking I feel is a little too easy even after Casey has
added the new brake tech, I would adjust it for this car more than other cars in the game,
as you should be able to apply a lot more initial pressure to the brake pedal before the
tyres begin to lock. It is almost like the window between the initial hit of the brake pedal
and the time it takes before the wheels begin to lock needs to be increased slightly.
More front initial bite I feel is needed with this tyre, mainly through medium and slow speed
corners as the front tyres feel very lazy with a lot of understeer which gives you no real
feeling of bite unless you slow the car down more than needed. In high-speed corners, the
front tyres feel very positive as the aero helps with the entry bite, but as the aero works less
through slower speed corners, the front tyres begin to struggle causing the need to use too
much steering lock to get the car to turn.
Formula A – R0
Ok so this tyre is similar to the Formula A tyre in some ways, but then completely different in
others. Firstly there is a big difference in top speed compared to the Formula A Tyre, with
this tyre being slower with less top end range. There is less front initial bite, which makes the
understeer and lazy issue with the front tyres from the Formula A compound worse. There
seems to be less general traction with this tyre, making the initial modulation period longer,
requiring more patience and less of the ability of being able to slowly modulate and plant
your foot on the throttle like with the Formula A tyre.
In terms of traction, I would say that the Formula A tyre is more consistent, by giving you the
same amount of traction at the exit of every corner, but is still unstable and unpredictable
if too much throttle is applied too soon. With this R0 tyre, I felt that the ‘free wheeling’
phase was a lot slower from the end of the braking phase to mid-corner, as it felt like the
De-acceleration Lock was increased, which gives the feeling of the speed being pulled
out of the car unnecessarily when you try and carry the speed into the corner. This then
means that you do not have to rely on the front downforce of the car as the speed is too
low. I feel that this has pros and cons, the pro being that the speed that it seemed to take
out of the car helped with the front end and reduced understeer. The con is that it felt a
little unrealistic, as the car should not just die in speed when you lift off of the throttle. In
terms of high-speed stability, this was near enough the same as the Formula A tyre and is
not an issue. Braking with this tyre was a lot more sensitive, resulting in very easy lock ups
with a little amount of pressure.
Formula A - R1
This tyre is pretty much the same as R0, but slightly worse in terms of grip and overall
performance. At the moment with these tyres, there is no urgency from the car at all. There
is no aggressive turn in that gives you the feeling that you are driving an F1 car with
downforce. There seems to be a really weird slide and grip behaviour with the car
oversteering and then gripping up again, but with a movement which feels like the front of
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the car is being pulled by a piece of rope to straighten it. The rear of the car is very easy to
lock and rotate when downshifting, which causes oversteer and starts the grip up feeling of
the car being pulled straight. Overall traction is worse with this tyre with no front tyre
urgency and overall laziness. High-speed stability is still good as with the previous tyres
above, but you have to tiptoe around with this tyre to get any sort of balance from it.
Formula A – R2
As I work my way through the tyres, I would say that this tyre is the worst with hardly any grip
on turn in and less overall stability. The amount of steering lock needed to turn the car is
really unrealistic and does not help the issues that are present in the R0 and R1 tyres. This
tyre is similar to R1 but with less overall grip and stability both through the corner and with
traction. Hardly any bite in the front tyres at all, which is worse than the previous tyres
above.
Formula A – R3
This tyre to me is very similar to the previous tyres above with the same characteristics of
laziness and lack of urgency from the front tyres. There seems to be more of a snap on
power than previous tyres with a ‘grip fall off’ when on power and the outside of the rear
tyre is under load. Personally, the front tyres are taking too long to come in, which is around
3 to 4 laps, where the rears were up to temperature and in by lap 2. As I have experienced
previously, there is no change/improvement in grip level as the tyres start to heat up and
not much of a difference in terms of grip available when the tyres are at optimum.
Formula A - R4
Ok so this tyre to me feels the closest in terms of balance behaviour with the front tyres
having more initial entry bite, which increases corner speeds and gives you a better/more
realistic feeling of the aero working on the car. The balance is a lot more consistent with
good traction and stability on power. I feel that there is still too much laziness from the front
tyres and would like to see more initial grip to further improve direction change. Traction I
feel also needs to be increased/improved a little, as there is still a tendency of an
unnecessary snap on power when traction has already been gained out of the corner.
There is a very big snap/ lock up in downshifts from 4th to 3rd which I feel needs to be
smoother and less aggressive, as this in real life would not be very reassuring when entering
a corner. Overall, this tyre for sure is the best and most enjoyable, I would just ask for even
more aggressive behaviour on turn in with more traction on exit and better stability under
braking, which should allow you to carry the speed into the corner on the brakes without
the car wanting to rotate or snap. Increasing the amount of brake pressure required to
stop the car before it starts to lock up, I feel also could be improved and would make the
braking phase with this car feel a lot more realistic.
Have a look at this onboard lap of Lewis at Suzuka...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-VL3Z8-woc
Personally the car in real life looks a lot easier to drive than the FA does/is on Pcars. Have a
look at the commitment and confidence he is able to carry into each corner with the aero
working perfectly and literally sucking/pushing the car down into to the track surface to
generate the grip. After watching this video, it has made me think about our aerodynamic
model and whether we have enough aero and mechanical grip to try and simulate what
you see in the video. Traction is not an issue at all in the video as Lewis can pick up the
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power so early at the exit. Trail braking into the corner is also no issue as you can see he
can brake all the way in and is using the brakes to stop the car on its nose to make it turn
better.
Direction change is also what needs to be looked at, as with the video you can see how
fast the change of direction is in fast to medium speed corners. To me in looks like the
general balance and behaviour of the car is determined by the overall mechanical grip
and aero, with the tyres creating good initial bite and good all round stability. In the video
you can see that understeer occurs mid corner where Lewis has to be patient before
picking the throttle up. In the FA’s case, we struggle with initial turning power and more
understeer mid corner with less overall traction when throttle is applied.
Like I said with the Formula C car last week, I would try and make the aero work harder to
generate the high and medium speed direction change but to also improve overall
stability and grip. To put it simply, the balance and performance of the car is focussed on
the downforce it produces and not how much the tyre brings in terms of grip. I would look
at the aero model to see if we can try and simulate the same suction as the video and
then develop the tyre around the aero, as at the moment, there is not enough aero and
not enough overall grip produced from the tyre itself.
Just a quick note/question, are there plans to improve the engine and gear change
sounds of this car, as I feel there is a great opportunity to improve them and make them
sound more accurate.
Hope this helps AJ,
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the great feedback as usual.
I have to read it through again to digest the finer points, but there is an overall theme that
suggests I need to move the FA up to F1 level grip now. As the model evolved, and the
testing evolved, it has emerged that the FA is on grip that is maybe 15-20% too low wrt F1. I
have resisted for a while because we has Ben's "favorite" as a baseline (the FA tire), at this
grip level (and everything changes when grip level changes), and we were learning
macro cause and effect. Well, now this feedback along with Ben's last feedback (putting
r4 near his favorite) says it is time to up the grip.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope everyone is well and that you all had a good weekend.
Ok so this is going to be a short post based on Build 669 and will cover the Ginetta G40
Junior.
So my first impression of this car is really good. As you know, these cars run on road tyres, so
they have the same tyre for both wet and dry conditions. As these cars are running on
road tyres, it means that there is instant grip out of the pit lane, as they do not require
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heating up like a slick tyre. With road tyres, they do not produce as much grip as a full slick
due to being made of a harder compound, which means they last longer, so long in fact
that Ginetta Juniors use just 1 set of tyres throughout the whole race weekend.
With road tyres, they have a tendency to deform/change shape under load, which causes
instability and a lack of grip. The tread on the tyre also tends to move around under load,
which causes slow and progressive slides with no real snap and is controllable. Driving this
car on Pcars, I feel that the general feeling and balance of the car is very close already
even though it is at an early stage. The car is very predictable, which is what I would
expect from these tyres with controllable slides and a decent amount of grip.
Even though this car has a good amount of grip, I feel that there is a little too much
rotation from the rear. In this case, it feels like a Clio, with a lot of rotation and nervousness.
If I was to make a change, I would soften up the rear slightly to take away some of the
rotation but not take it away completely, as if you look at an on-board of this car, it moves
under braking, but does not rotate on entry (unless provoked) and instead is planted with a
hint of understeer.
Braking I feel is an area of improvement, as it is very easy to lock-up, which unsettles the
car quite a lot. If you decrease the brake pressure, there is very little/not enough brake
pressure and if you increase the brake pressure, there is too much. This car does not have
‘Servo Assisted’ brakes, so some pressure is required, but not as much as the G55 or other
GT cars. Casey, is there a way we can adapt the brake tech on the GT3 cars to fit with this
car so that you can still apply big pressure, but not as much as the GT3 cars? If the new
brake tech were applied to this car, it would make a big difference.
I have done most of my testing at Brands Hatch Indy as I was there last Thursday in the G55,
so it is still fresh in my memory. This car at the moment I feel is too quick. Around Brands
Hatch, I was able to do a 51 second lap, which is 6/7 seconds faster than the Qualifying
pole time in 2013, which was around a 57.0. Clio Cup pace is 52/53, which puts the G40 in
Pcars faster than the Clio and only 3 seconds off of BTCC pace. Having looked at an onboard lap in the dry, ‘Surtees’ on the Indy Circuit is taken ‘flat’ in a G40 Junior whereas at
the moment it is taken like you would in a Clio, which is with a ‘half lift’, which means that
the car at the moment is way too fast.
Overall, this car is really nice, it has a good base foundation and a good general balance,
I would try and take away some rotation and by that I mean a minimal amount, changes
to the brakes need to be considered and the overall pace of the car needs to be looked
at to make it as accurate to real life as possible.
Just a quick post, but there is very little to say about this car with it being at a good level
already. I just have 2 questions, which are below.
Animation
Are there any plans to change the animation of the driver in terms of the way he ‘shifts
gears’, so he takes his hand off of the wheel and onto the ‘gear leaver’ instead of the
‘gear leaver’ moving on its own and the driver shifting with ‘invisible paddle shift’?
Sound
What are the plans with engine and down shift sounds? I am guessing these have not yet
been put into this car, as the sounds are some way off, but if someone could update me
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on the plans for the sounds then that would great.
Thanks guys, great job!
Nic
Casey Ringley:
Thanks for the test, Nic. J As you may have seen in the other thread, too fast is a bit
expected for this one at the moment. Current setup is unrestricted engine + slick tires. Even
the wets are probably too grippy right now for what the Junior spec car uses. I'll be making
a new tire for it soon which will be closer to the correct performance and that one should
be a real fun drive even when cut down to the 100hp spec engine.
Sound and animation work will be coming later.
Nicolas Hamilton:
No worries Casey,
Can you explain to me why the G40 Jr I was testing today had a 'road-looking' tyre on it?
Or is it just me?
I did not see slicks on the car at all. I used the 'Default Tyre'
Casey Ringley:
Looks like the art is set up with our generic road tread at the moment. That's not linked to
the physics yet. Eventually we'll hook that all together and change textures depending on
the tire used.
Nicolas Hamilton:
So, just completed a few test runs in the FC around Besos. I plan to do a blog tomorrow
based on what I have found out in the tests I did this evening, as well as the tests I do
tomorrow. I have been testing the R7 Default and the R7 A/B/C tyres to where I will
compare all of them to one another. At the moment, as I have been testing, I am
experiencing a lot of rear rotation, which is close to the issue we use to have with this car. A
lot of the rotation is caused when you 'lift off' the throttle causing 'lift off oversteer' Part of
me likes it and part of me doesn't as on one hand it helps minimise the understeer by
pointing the car to the apex and on the other hand, it feels very un-natural and
unpredictable and reminds me of the characteristic I was experiencing with the FA when it
feels like the front is being pulled straight again with a piece of rope.
Anyway, all 3 tyre variations are very similar, I will go into more detail tomorrow, just wanted
to give you guys an update on what I have been up to today in development.
Question to AJ,
Has any changes been made to the mechanical balance of the car since the Default R6
and R7 tyre tests from last week? It feels like the rear is stiffer/too stiff to where it used to be
a couple of months back before we made changes to minimise the rotation issue.
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Nic
Andrew Weber:
I do not think the chassis has changed any since R6 and R7 came out. I did not change it,
and I do not recall Doug or Casey changing it.
But when you test, change the setup on R7 Default first until you have balance you like. It is
important for the "baseline" (R7 Default) to be balanced, in order for the rest of the test to
make sense. Then use the same balanced setup on A/B/C.
edit: mess with the engine braking (higher value so the lift off does not drag as bad). That
feels unnatural to me as well on default.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 671 and will cover the Formula C and the R7
Default, R7 A/B and C tyres that are available for it.
So I did a post about this car and the R6 and R7 tyres a couple of weeks ago and I was
very happy with the progress and only had a few points to pick out regarding chassis
behaviour and balance. What I found a couple of weeks ago was a lack of front bite and
urgency from the tyre, which caused lazy understeer. ‘Over rotation’ was still an issue with
the rear feeling very unnatural with pros and cons of minimising understeer by pointing the
front into the apex, but with the aero not working hard enough to simulate the feeling of
the downforce pulling you through the corner.
With this round of testing, I did a lot more work on car setup on the R7 (Default) tyre to get
a decent balance which I liked before I went onto the A/B/C tyres. From the first couple of
runs, the car was very twitchy, nervous, unnatural and unpredictable, but after playing
around with setup, softening the rear and trying new ways to minimise the rotation, I found
a good enough balance to move on to the A/B/C tyres.
R7 (Default)
Before I go onto the A/B/C tyres, AJ wanted me to compare this Default tyre to the A/B/C
tyres also. So this tyre I feel is not too bad, I find it very lazy on the front with a lot of
wash/scrub through high-speed. Today, ‘over rotation’ has been the main characteristic of
which I needed to make setup changes to suit and in doing that I found some interesting
changes in behaviour with this R7 Default tyre.
From cold, the car is very nervous and has a lot of rear rotation, which in my eyes is not
realistic, as understeer should be the main issue from cold. Obviously if you lean on the
rears too soon, then the car would snap/rotate from the rear, but at the moment, you turn
to the point of understeer, which is correct, but then the rear will rotate unnecessarily, and
the rear tyres are not even under any lateral load at this point. During the out-lap, ‘lift off’
oversteer/rotation points the car to the apex which sometimes works in your favour and
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then other times it rotates in unrealistic situations, with the front of the car gripping up and
pulling it straight. In theory, this situation needs to be reversed where all you struggle with
on the first lap is understeer and power oversteer with snap oversteer and rotation if you
push on the rear tyres too soon.
As the tyres reach optimum the rotation is minimised but is still present on entry to slow
speed and medium speed corners, which cause unpredictability, as one lap the rear will
be planted, but then the next lap, it will rotate which takes confidence away. Rear rotation
is caused when trail braking, which is correct, but personally this is not accurate enough
yet as there is still unprovoked rotation, before trail brake entry rotation, which makes the
situation worse. To put this simply, the car may rotate through a medium speed corner,
where you then have to brake straight after for a slow speed chicane/corner, which makes
matters worse as the car is already unsettled before the braking zone of the next corner
has started. (Last sequence of corners at Besos GP)
As the rotation is minimised, this increases understeer through high-speed corners with the
front tyres scrubbing/pushing and working hard to hang on through the corner. As I said
previously, there seems to be no urgency from the front tyres, which makes them lazy and
struggle under load at high speed. The high-speed load issue also causes overheat to the
front tyres which makes them go off after 2 laps maximum.
R7 – A
Ok so this tyre is very similar to the Default R7, with the same characteristics and behaviour
from cold. This tyre seems to have more overall grip when cold compared to the Default,
which allows you to push a lot earlier on the out lap. What I have noticed with this car/tyre
as I have driven it more is that when the tyres are cold, the rear rotates a lot which causes
oversteer, but as the rear rotates, there is too much grip on the outside of the rear tyres as
well as the fronts, which pull the car straight again which gives us the unrealistic ‘rope
pulling’ feeling. Personally I do not think that the rear should rotate that much at all when
cold and only should rotate on power and if you lean on the rears too soon, which I said
above, but if we were to keep this feeling and chassis behaviour, I would say that rotation
needs to be minimised and the lateral stability needs to be decreased all round when the
tyres are cold to allow you to spin if you over step the mark, as at the moment, you only
spin on power and not from leaning on the rears too soon.
It is very tricky to feel at the moment as I basically think that the rear rotates too much but is
too safe during a slide or rotation phase as you can get away with everything, but there is
not enough urgency and grip from the front tyres when cornering as there is lazy
understeer. As the tyres heat up to optimum, I feel that there is a lot less rotation than when
cold, which is the same as the Default R7, but with better stability and ‘grip-hold’ through
the corner, meaning that the front tyres seem to hang on better through high-speed
corners, with not as much push/wash from mid-corner to exit. There is good traction on exit
together with a snap when power is applied too soon even when at optimum, which is to
be expected and is a positive.
Lastly, I would say there is more confidence with this tyre, as there is better overall stability
and grip, but as the car is set as ‘safe’ as possible, if I wanted to improve the front end in
setup changes, then this would make the rotation issue worse, as I feel I am at the limit of
keeping the rotation minimal where any change to the front would make matters worse.
R7 – B
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Ok this tyre is a mixture in characteristics of the R7 Default and R7 – A. The grip level that this
tyre has is very similar to tyre A, which has better overall grip than the Default R7. Even
though this tyre has more grip and is similar to tyre A, there is more rear rotation and
instability, which is similar to the Default R7. This tyre has better overall grip than the default,
so with the same level of rotation, the car is easier to control.
What I have noticed with this tyre is that the front tyres have more stability and hold though
high speed with a little less rotation mid corner due to the increased grip level compared
to the Default, which allows the car to pivot a little more at the apex of the corner. This
feels better overall but does not have the same high-speed rear stability than the R7-A tyre.
This makes it less stable and more twitchy when the outside of the rear tyre is under load. As
there is more overall grip with this tyre, but the same level of rotation than the Default, this
time the rear tyres were overheating easily, which started to affect traction on exit and
entry to mid corner stability.
R7 - C
So this tyre is very similar to tyre A, but has its own characteristic that I have not felt in any
other tyre previous to this one. The story is pretty much the same with all tyres so far with
some having less overall grip than others, but all having lazy understeer and scrub midcorner. Some tyres (Tyre A) seem to hold stability through high-speed corners and do not
tend to understeer/scrub as much. This tyre is interesting, as this tyre has the same level of
grip as tyre A and has near enough the same level of rear stability as tyre A but a little bit
less.
What I found the difference in characteristic with this tyre was that, the initial entry laziness/
understeer was the same as the other tyres, but as you get to mid-corner, the tyre grips up
more, which pulls you through the corner with less understeer. I found it quite interesting as
this helped minimise high-speed understeer. It was less noticeable through slow and
medium speed corners. This characteristic I feel needs to be reversed so that we have
better initial entry bite/grip that starts to understeer mid corner, as with this tyre, we have
lazy initial entry bite/understeer, with the front tyre coming back to you by mid corner,
creating more grip. Traction on exit felt the same as Tyre A with the same stability.
Overall, rotation is the key issue for me so far, with the car feeling very unnatural and
rotating unnecessarily. Less lateral grip through slides needs to be thought of when the
tyres are cold to allow the car to spin and act more freely to minimise the ‘rope pulling’
feeling, but this should not be decreased so much that the car spins whenever you turn the
wheel. Tyre behaviour when cold needs to be swapped, with more understeer from the
fronts and less of a rotation, unless provoked or the rear tyres are leant on too soon. There is
a lot to learn from Tyre C with more grip available through high speed corners with the tyre
coming back to you, which I feel needs to be reversed to simulate tyre behaviour being
aggressive on turn-in that starts to understeer when the limit of the tyre is reached.
Take a look at the video below, which is an on-board of an F3 car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdMe3nIoXP0
Notice how the rear is very stable, with no rotation at all, only understeer. It is surprising to
see that there is not that much downforce from the front in medium speed corners, as
there is quite a lot of understeer. The only movement from the rear is on power and a slight
movement when trail braking, but this is minor.
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Thanks guys.
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback. There is a lot in there. The problem is a bit complex, because we
are talking about balance and overall grip modulation with temperature. It is going to take
some digesting to take the next step on that front.
However, the main point of this test came through pretty clear, and jives also with the other
feedback on this test. The tires in this test actually all have the same grip and heat
parameters. The main difference is in how fast the tire "talks" to the car and driver. In one
sense you can call it the speed of the grip build-up. The default is very fast. "A" is in theory
(based on the model assumptions) the "correct" speed, but tires are complex enough that
the "correct" according to the model might need adjustment, so I put B and C in there as
two different takes on slower talk speed.
Interestingly, your feedback on "C" implies a different direction on a deviation from "A"
should be tested.
But more fundamentally, the heat needs to be addressed. All of that tire talk speed stuff is
secondary to the primary amiss-ness of the balance shift through a corner, which is mostly
heat driven. However, I also think there is some carcass structural adjustment necessary.
The rear contact patch sounds like it might be averaging a bit too small, so the rear
carcass may need to soften some.
Nicolas Hamilton:
It is interesting how you say that the heat build up is different in each tyre variation.
Personally, I only felt a real difference in build-up speed from the Default to the A Tyre,
where the rest I felt heated up the same, but had slightly different characteristics whilst
heating up and when at optimum. Have I thrown a 'curve ball' at you yet again? J
Andrew Weber:
Sorry...I was not completely clear. J The heat build up is the same. The FORCE buildup
speed is the difference. The differences are small in "human time" (like well less than a tenth
of a second), but very much different in human feel.
To me they differ mostly in how I can read the tire, which affects how I drive the car, and
confidence level, which then has knock on effect on everything else.
You did not throw a curveball. This is why I do not ask for specific details when I frame an
A/B/C test...because sometimes you get valuable feedback you do not foresee. That is
what happened this time. I got a clear answer on sort of what I was looking for, but then
got a whole lot of other information that should hopefully improve R8 significantly.
edit: and that different ability to read the tire might be exactly the curtain pulled that gave
a lot more detail on what the tire is doing, hence all the other feedback.
edit edit: One way to focus in on what I am talking about is pay attention to braking
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"squirm" with "B" or "C". Then go back to default or "A" and you can notice there was squirm
there all along, just "really fast". "B" or "C" just exposed what to look for in how it feels
through the FFB, etc.
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MARCH 2014
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Just wanted to give a small bit of feedback on a really small/tiny part of detail, which I just
noticed when driving the BMW Z4 in 'cockpit view'. I was just having a look at the 'field of
view' to see what the driver can see from just looking forward and looking at different
objects in that view to see if they were accurate and whether you would see them in real
life.
So, the majority of the objects that are in the drivers view are correct, apart from 1 object
that in real life, I know is there, but never see it in my line of view and that is the top of the
'roll cage' which is above the windscreen. This to me is always in view when driving the
game, where in real life, the top of the roll cage is 'there' and I would hit it if I moved up in
my seat, but it is not constantly in my field of view.
The main idea I had was the detail in the 'Rear view' mirror, as at the moment objects in the
rear view do not look as crisp and as detailed as the objects in front. With the mirror, all it
focusses on/ all you can see is the track that is behind you, which obviously is correct, but
when you look in a 'rear view' mirror in real life, you see a lot more than just the track and
objects you leave behind.
When you look through the mirror, you should see the inside of the car, so part of the roll
cage and everything else with it, but more importantly the distance between yourself and
the rear window. You need to be able to see the glass of the windscreen just like you can
see at the front. At the moment, the rear view mirror looks like you are watching a camera
that is attached to the rear of the car and not looking through a realistic 'rear view' mirror.
Note that when in wet conditions the front and rear windscreens steam up with the rear
being covered in spray to the point that you cannot see anything out of the rear window
and have to revert to the wing mirrors.
As I said, just another small detail idea. I am not sure if it is possible to replicate what I have
said, but I think it is a really important part of the detail that the driver sees in the cockpit.
Nic
Andrew Weber:
OK, the FC has R8 A/B/C tires for you to test when you can. Thanks. J
edit: There are also default setup changes, which were necessary to deal with the rotation
issue in the face of the tire changes necessary to get the bite increase.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Great! I am on it!
Also, Casey would you like me to give the Formula Gulf 1000 a run through? Anything in
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particular with this test, or would you just like me to do some laps and see how it feels?
Casey Ringley:
Please do. J Nothing specific, just give it some laps at your favorite tracks and see how it
does. Compare and contrast the R8 with the standard FG1000 tire.
Nicolas Hamilton:
AJ, just starting a run through of the R8 ABC tyres, I have only driven A so far and want to
say that it feels really nice, the car feels a lot more settled, the rear doesn't rotate too much
and feels that now you rely on the mechanical balance and areo balance of the car
instead of the rotation on the rear to get the car to turn.
I will finish my run through and will either have some feedback for you later or first thing
tomorrow.
Ben Collins:
Project Cars March 5th
Ford Capri
Ginetta G40
Lotus 72D
Formula C r7/r7-A/r7-B/r7-C tyre testing feedback.
Lotus 98T
Ford Capri – Default tyre
What a n absolute beast. Superb graphics job with driving to match, just needed a mullet
and some cowboy boots to go with it. The Capri was a lovely surprise
Clutch
So you have to use the clutch, and it’s a lot of fun. I normally right foot brake but on the Sim
I’ve been left footing all the way up until now so this made a refreshing change to go back
to the old school, and have to work the clutch for a living. In real life I treat the clutch as a
second brake to benefit from engine braking, so I’m glad for the practise. It works
seamlessly and benefit from the odd blip or very slow release – bang on.
Drivability
Superb. This is now one of my favourites on the Sim and I tested it for donuts, j-turns and
various dodgy maneuvers that make me feel at home. It performs them realistically which
is a good sign.
In track mode the car is very responsive and I could drive on the throttle with controllable
o/steer – something the team have worked incredibly hard with great result on this model.
The recoverability from a slide is dynamite and I had some massive opposite lock moments
with an even bigger grin – that’s what its all about. Important to note that there’s none of
that sense of being attached to an elastic band trying to auto correct the car – it’s 100%
you and the machine – 10/10
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Braking
I like the way the chassis dives under braking and rolls into the turn. It matches whats going
on underfoot with the brake pedal and you feel the weight transferring onto the front tyres,
loading them and accepting the brake force. Awesome
Sound
Love the turbo whoosh, and really appreciate the tyre squeal when the car is being
pushed – a highly valuable driving tool and one that really benefits the driver. It really helps
you feel the limit and feel connected
Cornering
Turn in balance is really good, I feel it points in pretty well, I also really like the way the car
darts in when you brake on turn in to some of the slower corners, it’s just great fun.
I tried the GT wet tyre but it felt like a normal dry run – I still don’t know how we access, test
and develop wet driving mode. I know, I’m the missing link from the Neanderthal.
The soft slick felt great too and had good drift control.
Ginetta G40 Junior
Another pleasant surprise – for a small car with modest horsepower, the balance is superb
and you can really drive the car with throttle and expect a lot of control, feedback and
fun.
Braking
My system has just adopted the latest software and somehow the brake bias was at 50% so
I found myself rotating when I combined brakes with steering. Eradicated that by moving
the bias forward to 65% and did the same with the other models – worked a treat.
Cornering
The car floats through the corners and does what you would expect of a car with minimal
downforce, which is keep the driver busy all the way.
Graphics
I noticed the shadow moving on this car in particular, and to me this is a new feature that I
think adds another element of realism. Nice one.
However, I felt the car creeping ever so slightly across the screen. It’s hard to explain but it
just felt a little artificial when I was moving across the straight so perhaps this is worth a
tweak.
All in all, a great little car.
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Lotus 72D
DEFAULT TYRE
Incredible graphics package and having spent some time in F1 cars of this era I was
itching to see what we had here.
Sound
The first thing you notice is the engine note, which is mega, and I’m glad to say the power
delivery was linear, predictable and matched the engine note precisely
Drivability
The power delivery is controllable and there’s excellent response on initial throttle.
I found the traction suitably challenging out of very slow corners, such as the chicane at
Imola, where you have a busy time laying down the power and the opportunity to have
an active slide coming out of the corner. I would still have liked to have had a little more
stability when the car was practically in a straight line, and had the wheelspin without it
slipping into quite so much yaw.
As the speed increases it becomes quite hard to control the rear when it breaks away.
Steady state medium speed corners can turn on you, and at high speed it all happens in a
flash. I don’t want to sanitise the handling but more warning and control would make this
car really sing.
On turn in to high speed I felt the car was a bit lazy and had too much understeer. I would
expect the car to point in and spin at the apex if I chose to enter the corner too fast, but
she just goes straight on.
Braking
Very good. In terms of the graphics matching whats happening with the physcis I noticed
two things. Firstly I felt like I was losing stopping power a fraction before the tyre was locking
– I could hear the tyres screeching and loss of deceleration and THEN the tyres locked. I
hope I’ve got that right but perhaps other people noticed this too and can confirm.
The other suggestion I made when I saw the dev team in London, which I feel would
benefit us with this car, would be for the slicks to change colour and texture when you lock
a front tyre, and for smoke to come off. The fronts should go shiny and black under a major
lock up as the friction burns off the outer layer and exposes fresh molten rubber. Be great
for realism and also in sync with the loss of deceleration is gives the driver more feedback.
I had a brief run with the 70’s flexi slick but didn’t like it as much, the steering felt more
vague and the car was less stable again at high speed. However, I did notice that the plus
point I experienced at low speed, in terms of being able to slide the car out of the
chicane, was present on this tyre too.
Formula C
Every time I drive the FC it reminds me of the high benchmark the Dev Team are setting.
The FC is a stonker
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I ran through all the tyres for comparison: r7/r7 A/r7 B/r7 C/r7
All of them had quite individual characteristics at cold temps to what you ultimately get at
running temps. All of these compounds are fantastic to drive and it’s really hard to
separate good from good!
These are simply impressions between the tyres because the fundamental platform is
perfect.
R7 / R7
Sound
I was immediately struck by the noise of screeching rubber at cold temps because the R7
has a lot of understeer to being with. This feels a bit over the top at times because it even
occurs in the straights when you switch sides, but the tyre feedback is critical so I’m not
complaining.
I nearly made the mistake of thinking I didn’t like the tyre because of the low temp u/steer
but once they warmed up the car transformed into a butterfly. (200 degree fronts, 240
rears!!)
Then the car was mega. I forgot entirely that I was driving a sim, and drove it like a race
car.
The braking is spot on, the handling is slightly understeer biased but very workable,
oversteer is controllable and the feedback is excellent.
R7 / A
This car had none of the initial u/steer of the 7/7 and slid around with o/steer from the
outset, too easily really and too easy to control.
However – that was at cold temps, and once the tyres were hot I loved this balance. It’s
extremely easy and natural to drive and I preferred this style to the 7/7 because I had more
control over where I put the front end. There was less understeer to wait for, or have to
push through before the rear broke traction.
R7 / B
It felt quite similar to A but possibly a little edgier once up to temp. I found the balance
came to me a little faster than the A but really not much in it – but this was my ‘favourite’
compound of the group and when I came back to it at the end it remained so.
I just felt with this tyre that there was a little more feedback and a little more going on. Like
the A tyre it didn’t have the understeer to contend with.
Braking was effective and the transition into turn in was very good. Like the A this meant
you can dig into the brakes and fling it into a fairly fast corner, then catch it on the power
and scrabble out of the corner with something bordering a 4-wheel drift.
R7 / C
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To me this seemed to revert more to the u/steer model of the R7 / R7. I felt it was a bit more
laboured and I had to wait for the u/steer to slowly convert into o/steer. It felt a little more
artificial and not as much fun to drive.
Braking stability was notably quite on this tyre and I wondered if it had slightly more grip in
some areas – but lap time wise they all seemed to be in the same ball park. This one
certainly had too much high speed understeer for my taste.
Lotus 98T..
I apologise for ending on a sad note, but the 98T has turned into a monster. Previously this
car was amazing so I don’t understand the direction we are taking with this one.
Tyre Temps
I patiently waited for the tyre temps to build, and despite the copious amounts of
wheelspin at pretty much every corner – the tyres never felt like they were hot enough.. At
their maximum heat all I got was 120 front and 160 rear.
Braking
The fronts lock up all the time and there’s very little grip for stopping compared to what we
had before. It’s hard to feel the tyres digging into the tarmac and there’s little feedback.
Braking is a nightmare basically.
Turn in
I think the core handling and turn in might still be ok, but it’s really hard to know because
there’s so much else going on.
Traction
The power response is completely dead at first, although this did improve a tad once the
tyres reached luke warm, as with a little extra corner speed the car found some RPM. Even
accounting for Turbo Lag, this seemed excessive.
Then the Turbo and its power band kicks in, and it’s uncontrollable. No driver could have
survived the 80’s under these conditions!
The power totally overwhelms the traction in 2nd and 3rd gears and any straight with a
slope or a slight bend results in a punishing slide. I really expected the wheelspin to heat
the rears and improve matters but it didn’t.
The combination of slippery braking and low traction has ruined what was previously a
really solid platform. The dive and pitch in the body is still there but without some degree of
control in the other areas those realistic features slip into the background.
Perhaps I have missed something really obvious. I tried pumping the tyres with 2 bar of air
and ramping the spring rate up to see if it was the tyres not working properly but nothing
seemed to warm them up any more or change the grip level.
SUMMARY
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Besides my feelings about the 98T direction, I think the overall Project Cars package is
looking amazing. I’m very keen to promote some wet weather development so Casey
please let me know when you and AJ turn your creative eye to this side of things, and I
look forward to your feedback and thoughts on the above.
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback. Really spot on for the FC, which is the part I am focused on at the
moment. Even though the feedback differs from Nic, I think that is probably more down to
style than anything else. The differences you cite between A, B, and C , relative to R7,
completely jive with the actual tires differences. I think I am getting a pretty good handle
on the direction we are in for open wheel slicks now, although right now only the FC, of the
tires I am working on, has sort of the full picture.
I just put in R8, A/B/C tires, but I also put in some setup changes. While I am hoping Nic likes
R8 and the setup changes better than the R7 test, my guess is that your style will want to
open the diff back up a little (lower the settings) to get the R8's closer to your liking (closer
to the balance of the R7 test).
Doug Arnao:
The 98T will be the first car I revsist when i'm back tweaking physics. The increased turbo
power has really messed with the balance that was previously done with a woefull timid
engine. The new setup will need appropriatly realistic tire grips for the new found turbo
power. I'll work on the tire heating at that time too.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Back to development work! This post is going to be based on Build 678 and will cover the
Formula C and the new R8 ABC tyres that are available for it.
R6
So as there were some changes that were made to the Default setup, I decided to do a
few laps on the R6 tyre, as based on my feedback over the past couple of weeks, I felt that
this tyre was the best so far. With the R6 tyre, my general feelings are pretty much the same
as when I first drove and gave feedback on it HERE. This tyre has a very good base
foundation to work from, as it has very good base characteristics that personally for me just
need fine tuning. The cold tyre phase I feel is too long, it takes a good 5 to 6 laps to get the
tyres up to optimum or to any decent temperature, which should not be the case as it
should only take 2 to 3 laps maximum.
The overall balance on this tyre is quite nice, as it is not snappy or trying too rotate on itself
all of the time and instead is planted all the way through the corner. Personally for me, the
only downfall with these tyres is the lack of urgency, with not much initial bite on entry and
a lot of push and scrub at mid corner. This is practically the same as last time I drove this
tyre and feel that it is overall grip from the tyres that I think let the whole balance down, as
the front tyres do not want to do anything with the rears having a good amount of grip,
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but still needs to be increased at optimum temperature.
As I drove R6 again, I felt that this gave me a good indication of what I wanted to see in
the R8 tyres to keep progress moving forward.
R8-A
Ok so this tyre feels good to me. From cold it is very difficult to judge with a lot of understeer
and snappy power oversteer together with some outside load stability, which is nice as this
replicates the ‘slide and grip’ feeling. Comparing this tyre to R6, I feel that you have to be
more patient with this tyre as it feels like it has more noticeable characteristic changes as it
heats up. So first of all, the tyres heat up a lot faster compared to R6 and give you a
decent amount of grip by the end of lap 2, which is in the correct ballpark I feel,
depending on track temperature.
As you come to the end of lap 2, you can start to push but still experience some lazy
understeer and power oversteer as the tyres are still coming in. Through high speed, the
front tyres are positive immediately with the feeling of the downforce working harder with
the more speed you carry, which gives you good entry and mid corner grip, but the rears
still give you some instability on power at this point. By the end of lap 3, the tyres are pretty
much there with a big improvement in overall balance, mainly caused by an increase in
rear traction and stability, as you can pick up the power earlier with no issues. High-speed
grip remains the same, with increased rear traction on exit. Braking stability is increased
with not as much snap under heavy braking, which allows more confidence and the use of
a more aggressive technique. A weak point with this tyre I feel is still the slow speed entry
and mid corner bite, as it feels that once steering lock is applied, the front tyres just ‘slide
across the track surface instead of giving you instant biting feedback and grip.
If I was being even more picky, I would slightly increase the grip on the outside of the rear
tyre when under load, as sometimes this feels like it falls off too easily if more than minimal
steering lock is applied. This would then give even more confidence on the rear, as I still
feel that sometimes you have to ‘baby’ the rear and not put it under too much load,
otherwise it will spit you off.
Going back to the front aero feeling like it works harder with more speed… the rear does
not feel like it becomes more stable with the more speed you carry and instead is just
reliant on the stability of the rear tyre under load, which I feel does not have enough at the
moment.
R8-B
This tyre is really nice, I feel that this is the best tyre we have had on this car so far. From
cold, there is more grip than A but this is how I feel in needs to be, as there is still a lot of
understeer but better initial bite with understeer afterwards, which to me is more accurate
to a cold tyre on the front. Previously, the cold tyre did not have either initial bite or bite
after initial turn-in and this made it feel like you were turning on ice. At least now, there is
some structure to the tyre with a small amount of bite initially with understeer due to cold
temps after the initial turn-in.
As you go through the out-lap, the fronts, which I just explained felt more realistic with rear
traction feeling very similar to A meaning not much traction, which you would expect from
cold but the rears did not seem to have any warning to them through the warm up phase,
as either they produce stability and grip under load, or they just ‘let go’ with no warning/no
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in-between, making slides very snappy/sudden and very hard to control. From cold to
optimum took around about the same length of time, but this tyre seemed to produce
more grip on colder temperatures then tyre A. Once they get up to optimum, the car is
really nice, there is good initial entry bite, which is an improvement to tyre A as there is
more response/feedback from the tyre as soon as you turn in. Traction is better than tyre A
with more confidence picking up the throttle, with a controllable squirm if you are on the
limit of power-pickup/acceleration. Grip under breaking is improved also, allowing you to
brake later than tyre A. High-speed feels the same as A but with better initial turn-in,
allowing you to carry more into/through the corner.
In terms of improvements, I was struggling with the same issue as tyre A, which is lack of
stability on the outside of the rear tyre when under load on power. A lot of the instability
and continuation of rotation without you being able to get it back was created when you
start applying a little bit of throttle at the apex of the corner, before increasing it fully at the
exit. To me it feels that the tyre produces no grip on power when the rear tyre is under
load, which stops you being able to apply throttle through the apex as the car acts like the
rear tyres spin with no bite or grip at all. The middle part of the tyre is not an issue, so this
means that you have to use minimal steering lock to avoid using the outside part of the
tyre. Sometimes you can go to the outside of the tyre and it snaps instantly, but with
minimal steering lock it is controllable. This to me is the biggest issue and let down of the
tyre. The second improvement is to give the front tyre more grip during mid corner, as the
initial entry bite has improved but too much understeer and scrub is present at the middle
of the corner, with the tyre going over its grip limit too easily.
R8-C
This tyre is very similar to B but with a little less grip all round. From cold, this tyre feels pretty
much the same as B, but with a bit less stability from the rear. I feel that traction in the
middle of the tyre is better (slightly) than B but with less grip everywhere else. I feel there is
less entry bite with this tyre when at optimum, but with the same mid-corner grip in low and
medium speed corners as B.
This tyre feels like it changes the balance of the car to where it has more rotation mid
corner (off throttle) which seems to work to help the front turn in better but makes rear
traction and stability worse than B as the rotation is quite sudden from mid-corner to exit.
This lowers confidence and faith in the car to push the limits, as you have to watch every
movement you make from the wheel. Braking I feel has less grip than B resulting in less
confidence and a need to brake earlier. As I said, this tyre from foundation feels similar to
B, with the same characteristics but with less performance and grip.
Overall, all 3 tyres are a really good improvement together with the default setup changes.
The car to me feels more natural and believable with the rear seating nicely. I now feel
that it is all down to modifying the tyre characteristics when at optimum, with B being my
favourite tyre with still the need to add more mid-corner grip on the front tyre and more onpower grip when the rear tyre is under lateral load. I think we are really getting there with
this car, it is just ‘trial and error’, but the grip that is available with tyre B is very positive with
confidence to be able to push and read the tyre consistently.
Good job once again!
Nic
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Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the excellent feedback as usual.
As for the understeer, that part was mostly on purpose, based on your post #239 video and
closing comment. J I guess I cloned an undesired aspect (I softened the RARB and
tightened the diff away from Dallara default explicitly to add this understeer). J Therefore, I
think this actually well within reach of setup adjustments.
The newest FA tire has less tack, and hence less load sensitivity, than the r8 FC tire. I think
the r8 is maybe a little high in load sensitivity, which the same numbers on the FA showed
even more (due to the higher load deltas). I think applying this new FA adjustment back to
the FC may deal with the lingering power-on instability at speed for the FC. Also we
probably need another heat adjustment per Doc's runs and my comments wrt those.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey Guys,
I hope everyone is well and you all had a good weekend.
So this post has been cut short due to the R8 tyres only being available for the Formula Gulf
for a short while and I was not quick enough in getting to R8-B and C in time. Anyway, this
post is going to be based on Build 679 and will cover the Formula Gulf 1000 comparing the
Formula Gulf 1000 Slick tyre with the Formula C R8-A tyre.
FG 1000 Slick
This tyre is a great base tyre, it has a lot of grip and makes the car very predictable, stable
and consistent, which is very nice. As this tyre has so much grip, you can push on them
straight away with a little bit of understeer from the fronts to start with. Under braking, the
car is stable with a lot of bite, which allows you to be able to brake late straight out of the
pits. With this tyre, I noticed that the fronts struggle with a lack of entry and mid corner bite
in slow and medium speed corners, but has a lot of rear stability and traction, with power
application being very easy but will bite you if you get on power too early.
This car has quite a lot of rear rotation off power but once tyres are at optimum, rotation is
decreased but is still present and can be adapted and adjusted in setup. This car is very
similar to how the FC was a few weeks back, where you relied on the rotation of the rear to
get the front to turn. Softening the rear did help, but if I was being picky I would decrease
off power rotation by one step to get rid of some of the snap that sometimes occurs, which
lessens confidence in the car. Through high-speed corners, the aero is working well, with
good turn-in and good all round stability.
My improvements would be to lessen the grip available for the out-lap on cold tyres, with
less stability from the rear and less front bite, allowing the tyres to lock up more easily until
there is a small amount of temperature. To decrease the lift off oversteer/rotation slightly,
which means that you rely less on the rotation of the rear to get the car to turn and more
on the mechanical and aero balance. Part of me also feels that you can get away with a
lot of mistakes on this tyre, with it producing so much grip that you are not punished for silly
mistakes or the wrong technique. Ideally I would want the same amount of grip and
stability when at optimum with the same confidence and performance, but to punish you
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more for reckless driving, mistakes and wrong techniques.
R8-A
This tyre to me feels more realistic than the FG standard tyre, as there are more noticeable,
realistic phases to the tyre. From cold, there is not as much grip as the FG tyre, with more
understeer and less rear stability. Braking feels the same, with good bite and grip, allowing
you to brake just as late as the FG tyre, but I would expect there to be less grip initially
under brakes for the first couple of corners where the tyres lock up more easily until the
temperature starts to increase.
As this tyre has less on-power stability when the outside of the rear tyre is under load, it
allows the rear to move more freely, minimising understeer on power from mid corner to
exit, but still has the same amount of traction and grip in the middle part of the tyre as the
FG tyre when exiting slow speed corners. Front entry bite is better with this tyre, allowing
you to carry more entry speed into the corner with understeer in the middle of the corner,
but this can be improved with better mechanical balance and aero balance with setup
changes.
Both tyres are very good for this car, I personally feel that the car is a little too easy to drive
at the moment, as you can get away with a lot on both types of tyre, but if I was to
change it, I would not want to take away the confidence and grip that is present when
the tyres are at optimum, because this is what makes this car feel very good. All we need
to change is grip limits, which determine how much you can get away with. I would say
that the R8-A tyre is most realistic from comparing the two, but the FG Slick tyre is not far
away, as adding tyre behaviour phases from cold, to warm, to optimum would improve
this tyre greatly in terms of realism, as none of the tyres at the moment on the FC or this car
have the heating phases exactly where they need to be.
Hope this helps!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
OK, Nic, I have a R9 FC tire in there for you. I did not change the heating model this time,
but it still seems a bit longer to come up to temp, probably due to the carcass changes
making the tire a bit more efficient (but not grippier). So be aware that it may take an
extra lap or two vs the R8. I can fix that if otherwise R9 improves upon R8.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so today I have been testing the Formula A ‘G’ Tyre and have been analysing how
different driving characteristics affect the graining in different ways.
To do this test, I carried out 2 long runs to gather information on different feelings that the
tyre gave in different situations.
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Circuit: Eifelwald GP
Mode: Free Practice
Run 1 – Overly aggressive from cold
So for this run, I aimed to analyse how fast the tyre started to grain from cold and how long
it took to clean up. In this run, I was using very aggressive steering techniques, which would
be unrealistic and not the right thing to do in real life, but I wanted to purposely see how
fast the tyre grained and the affects it had.
Out of the pits, I used a lot of ‘front shocking’ (sharp steering inputs to make the front tyres
scrub), which is a technique that can be used to build up front tyre temperatures, but in
this case I used this technique excessively. Out of the pit lane, the standard tyre level of
graining was 219 all round and by the time I got to turn 7, the front tyres were at 260 on the
left and 280 on the right. During this phase, I noticed that the graining level does react to
corner speed and how much load/energy you put through the tyre, which is already a
positive, as carrying good speed through turn 6 made the level of graining ‘rocket’. As the
lap went on, the front tyres were at a really high level of graining to where they were
producing a lot of understeer with no bite on initial turn-in and minimal bite and easy lockups under braking. As the graining and understeer was at such a high level, this meant that
I was having to use one gear lower than normal, as corner speeds were affected massively
with the tyre feeling like it was on ice.
With the tyre levels at 260 on the right and 280 on the left, I then wanted to see how long it
took for the tyre to clean up and come back. Due to the fact that I on purposely
‘overworked’ the tyres out-lap, lap times to start with were around 1:35. As I overworked
the front right tyre more on the out lap through the high-speed turn 6, this tyre was
struggling really badly, which is to be expected. The left front was at a high level, but was
starting to clean up by lap 3 to 4 and started to give signs of improved entry bite, but as
the front right was in a worse condition, there was still a lot of understeer as the right tyre
kept pushing on. It took a total of 6 laps for the front left to come back to normal graining
level and took 7 laps for the front right. After both tyres were back to their normal graining
level, the laptimes dropped to the 1:30’s with 1:31-1:32’s being the times during the ‘tyre
clean up’ phase.
In terms of improvements, I feel that due to the amount of graining I generated in this test
with the front right tyre reaching levels of 191, I would not expect the tyre to feel great after
they have cleaned up, as the damage to the tyre would of already been done in the cold
phase, whereas at the moment, the graining cleans up and the tyre returns to giving you
the same amount of grip level as if they were new. This is where we need to add in drop-off
even when the tyre has cleaned up depending on the height of energy and graining that
was present before they cleaned up. Another improvement would be to add graining
when the tyre is ‘overheated’ as from my test today, this was ‘cold tyre’ graining,
compared to ‘hot tyre’ graining where the tyre begins to overheat due to temperature
increase caused by, change in driving style, lock-ups etc.
Ok, so as I was about to progress with Run 2, the new Build came out with a grip reduction
to the ‘G’ tyre, so this changes my feedback and run thoughts in this paragraph.
So the grip reduction has made the general feeling of this car a lot more lazy than
previously (Run 1), my plan before the changes in grip level was to see how this tyre
reacted from a normal driving style with normal techniques to see how quickly it begins to
grain and whether grip increases as they start to clean up.
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Run 2 (New Build-681)
Ok so the Build change has thrown my blog off course a bit, as this tyre now feels a lot
different to pervious. There is a lot more understeer and less urgency than before, with less
grip under brakes to less initial entry bite. The tyre is a lot easier to grain in the first couple of
laps due to the less grip available before the grip reduction, but does not seem to improve
in grip level as the graining starts to clear. In this run, I drove with a normal/realistic style
and only got the fronts up to 231 in graining level. The overall balance of the car was a lot
lazier, but the grip reduction to the tyre did make traction more difficult, which is more
realistic to me. I got the rear graining level to 222, but once both front and rear tyres were
clean, grip increase was not very noticeable compared to before the grip reduction was
made.
As the laps go on, it does seem that the tyres come to you a little bit with a bit more grip
everywhere e.g. slight increase in entry bite through high speed, but once they are at that
one level of performance or temperature, then there does not seem to be any increase in
graining if you work the tyres harder. Rear traction stayed the same and did not increase in
graining after the out lap.
Overall, I love doing this test, I think that the characteristic of the ‘G’ Tyre is at a very good
base foundation, more work needs to be done to the phases of the tyre so that the
optimal performance is still present, with graining starting to develop before or after the
optimum temperature window, based on how the driver treats the tyres.
I hope this helps!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks again for great feedback.
The graining model is the simplest version I tried that makes any physical sense. One side
effect of this is that it might be difficult to have a much longer "good" phase before
graining hits, at least with tire warmed tires, like the FA has.
What the model does have is the ability to damage the tires more than it is set to do now,
in the form of accelerated wear while graining. What it does not have yet is actual
damage to the rubber (changing hardness and Cf's). That would be very easy to add if we
need it.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Cool so what is next with this tyre? Do you have any specific changes to try based on the
feedback I have given or is there not a way around simulating tyre phases?
Andrew Weber:
Next is to increase the wear damage, and see if that is "enough" damage, and to narrow
down the grip profile. My main concern wrt grip and the FA right now is the load sensitivity
(due to the FA's huge load changes, due to downforce). I do not have data on that, so
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we'll have to work out high speed sweepers and low speed stuff getting both "right" on
track. I'm thinking Eau Rouge is useful there. We have testimony that in the last few
generations of F1 tech we've gone from having to slightly lift there to going flat. This means
we should be able to go flat there (high load), but not by much (so if I dial grip back a
touch, and cannot go flat, the grip before I dial it back will be close). If we get that, and
get La Source to feel right (low load), and throw on that Pouhon is white knuckle, and we'll
be in the ballpark. Maybe.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Sounds like a good plan to me, Spa has a perfect variation of corners for us to test different
feelings under different levels of load.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 686 and will cover the Formula C and the FCR9 tyre.
To analyse the difference between the R8 tyre and the R9 tyre, I did some back-to-back
runs on each tyre to get a feeling for the differences. As you know, last week, R8-B was my
favourite tyre but still felt that there needed to be some more improvements with regards
to lateral load under power and mid-corner bite.
FC-R9
Ok so this tyre, I am not quite sure about. There are characteristics/parts of the tyre that I
like and then there are parts in which I feel R8-B is better. Firstly, the R9 tyre takes a very
long time to come up to temperature compared to R8-B, with the tyres getting to a small
amount of temperature but then start to cool down as the laps go on. With this tyre, there is
a lot less urgency with regard to initial entry bite, which causes a lot of understeer and
means you have to be very patient.
The interesting characteristic I felt with this tyre was the fact that the front grip/entry bite
improves with more speed carried through the corner, which gives you the feeling of the
downforce working harder, this to me is good, but then is let down by the front tyres not
being able to hang on through mid-corner as they start to give up. This to me seems that
we are getting some aspects correct to where we are starting to get the downforce to
work harder, but yet to get all of the aspects working together. From cold, the tyre I feel is
quite realistic with less traction and entry bite than the R8-B tyre, which I feel is better due
to the fact that the R8 has too much grip for the first couple of corners, but I would still
decrease grip available in the middle of the tyre, to allow more wheel spin when exiting
the pit-lane.
With regards to heating, having driven both the R8 and R9 tyres, obviously, the R8 comes
up to temperature faster, but I do feel that the fine details in the heating model need to be
adapted/ improved. What I have noticed with both tyres/ most of the tyres in the game, is
that they do not change in heat temperature due to the amount of load that is put
through them. What I mean by this is that, you may go through a corner and put the left
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front under heavy load, to where you can see the temperature of the tyre increase, but
after you exit the corner, the temperature of that one tyre drops down to the temperature
it was before the pervious corner.
Instead, the tyres seem to come up to temperature with how many laps they do and not
by how much load/energy and heat is put through them, which explains why we do not
have heat build up at slow speeds (formation lap pace). The Formula A had part of this
characteristic on the ‘G Tyre’ where the graining was caused by the energy/load and
heat that was put through the tyre. Can this be introduced into the FC to where the tyres
heat up independently?
Having gone through both tyres again after last week, the car to me feels more ‘floaty’
and does not feel like you can control every movement from the car. This is mainly due to
the rear still snapping under power even when going through a corner that should be
taken full throttle but instead, snaps when the rear tyre is under load. This feeling I do not
think is the tyre, falling away, but more like the tyre breaking traction as the outside of the
rear tyre is used. The R9 has more stability in this area, but only slightly and is still very
unpredictable on the rear and is very twitchy at the exit of a corner.
FFB
I feel that a lot of my negative feeling with the car is caused by the FFB. At the moment,
the wheel feels very light, almost like you are driving an automatic road car. The weight of
the wheel changes all of the time, from weak to strong, but tends to have a mind of its own
when the car gets out of shape.
I personally feel that the weight of the wheel causes the car to feel like it is moving around
all over the place, which makes reaction time slower as sometimes the FFB causes you to
feel like the steering wheel is not connected to the front tyres, as the wheel gets lighter
under braking and on entry to a corner, but strengthens up when at high speed on power.
As the FFB seems to change all of the time, this to me does not make the car feel ‘solid’
and to a point where you can control everything. If you have a snap or slide/oversteer, it
feels like the FFB works against you to where the wheel turns on its own, meaning that it
makes matters worse and sometimes giving you a ‘pendulum’ effect. I do not know a lot
about the technical parts that create the accuracy of FFB, but I do know a lot about how
it should feel and react and at the moment I feel that if this area were improved, then the
whole feeling of the car would change.
I am not sure if this is my wheel setup, but I do have tyre force and FFB set to 100 and not
using any FFB Tweakers. I would really like to develop the FFB because this is very important
to get a good feeling. I would like to start with a FFB setting that has a good strength that
does not change throughout the lap. After we get good strength, I would like to add in
characteristics that we have had in the past/currently e.g. kerb vibrations and jolts, as at
the moment, the characteristics are making the ability to control the car worse because
the strength and accuracy of the FFB is not there yet.
This may be all down to FFB Tweakers, (I don’t know) but if someone has a Tweaker file I
can try for my Fanatec Wheel then that would help.
Overall, if I was to pick one tyre out of both variations, I would still choose R8-B, but R9 does
have some more realistic tyre phases and is more realistic when cold. There is some
improvement in lateral stability but I would take this once more step further for when on
power. My actual main point of concern is the FFB and the weird feelings it can give for the
car, with the car still being very snappy that is not helped by the current strength and setup
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of the FFB. I would give R9 more entry bite, together with mid-corner bite and more stability
on the outside of the tyre when under power. Adjusting heating parameters I feel needs to
be done, but AJ did say that this can be added if needs be.
If we could find a way of improving the FFB and accuracy of the feedback it gives, then I
would like to do this test again to really get the balance of this car settled, because at the
moment, it is a little ‘floaty’, unpredictable with a lot of rear movement.
Hope this helps!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
I suspect it's more likely to be the settings on your wheel Nic, as it sounds so far from how it
should be. I hope Remco etc can help you out as I'm a bit out of touch with the latest
Fanatec knowledge. As you say though, it's critical you have FFB working properly in order
to evaluate the tyres (and physics generally).
Nicolas Hamilton:
Ok guys,
So I was not very happy with my blog yesterday due to the issues I was having, which were
causing inaccurate FFB and so I wanted to re-write my feedback tonight now that I have a
good base FFB setting, which I think has completely changed my experience and feeling
of the car. Thanks to Remco and everyone else for helping me sort this issue.
Circuit: Derby National
Mode: Free Practice
So as I did yesterday, I completed some back-to-back runs on my favourite tyre from last
week, R8-B and the new R9 tyre, to give me a good base to work from in the differences in
behaviour of both tyres.
Personally, I do not think there is much to separate these tyres, as they are very similar and
both are very consistent. My general feeling of R8-B is that it is a very positive tyre, with
great initial entry bite when at optimum temperature, but struggles with mid-corner bite, as
it starts to wash/scrub and understeer immediately after the initial entry phase has finished.
There is a lot of instability on power, with a lot of wheel-spin when the outside part of the
tyre is used, which is what I commented on last week.
Tonight, I also noticed that there is instability on the same part of the tyre when under load
through high-speed corners and not just when applying power at the exit of a corner. My
example is the ‘Craner Curves’ at Derby Park (Donington Park) where you turn in at full
throttle with good initial front bite and rear stability to start with, but as the load on the rear
tyre increases, there is a sudden snap/loss of grip, which makes the car want to rotate
suddenly. This is a different characteristic as the on-power lack of traction/instability, which
can occur at the exit of ‘Copice’ at (Donington Park) but both issues are created by the
lack of grip on the outside part of the rear tyre.
As I have said already, I really like both tyres, I feel that they both have characteristics that
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are better than one-another, which makes me want to create one tyre out of the two of
them, as I think this would be the best way to go.
Break Down
Ok, so to break it down I am just going to write some bullet points on each tyre explaining
their characteristics and then summarising with what characteristics I feel need to be put
together to make another step forward in developing the perfect compound.
R8-B
• Too much grip from cold, with a good/realistic amount of understeer at the first corner,
but with too much overall grip by turn 2, which results in the driver not having to work hard
enough to get the tyres up to temperature.
• Very good initial entry bite at all corner speeds, but with a lack of mid-corner ‘hold’/bite,
which causes the car to understeer with the limit of the tyre being reached to easily as you
can instantly feel it starting to struggle/over-work.
• Good rear stability when off power, with good grip in the middle of the tyre, when the
rear starts to slide. This then breaks away as soon as the outside part of the rear tyre is used,
with the same part of the tyre causing ‘snap rotation’ at high-speed when on power and
when exiting corners as power is applied.
• Braking is good, with no issues.
• Time period between cold phase and optimum is still too long,, with the tyres reaching
operating temperature around ‘half a lap’ to ‘a lap’ too late.
• Great balance when at optimum, just needs more mid-corner bite/hold and more rear
stability when on power and with power application on exit.
R9
• More realistic cold tyre phase, with slightly less traction to start with and less initial entry
bite than R8-B with the front tyres causing more understeer, which I feel is realistic for the
first couple of corners.
• Not much improvement to the front tyres with regards to entry bite throughout the outlap but also as the laps go on, the understeer is still very lazy with not enough entry bite in
slow and medium speed corners when at optimum temperature, but is the same as R8-B
on entry to high speed, which is good.
• The same struggle mid-corner as the R8-B with more grip/bite and hold needed.
• High-speed ‘on power’ rear stability has improved compared to R8-B with less snap and
load rotation, but with still improvements to be made to minimise it one step further and
also improve the ‘on power’ traction on exit, which is better than R8-B, but still needs
improving.
• The same, ‘off power’ ‘good’ rear stability as R8-B with no real difference, just
improvements when ‘on power’ needed.
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• Braking feels the same with good bite, but would like to have less bite on cold tyres,
which then improves from corner to corner during the out-lap
Improvements/ N tyre (Nic’s Tyre)
Cold Phase
• (Based on R9 tyre when cold) Less overall grip out of the pit lane which causes the driver
to work harder to get the tyres up to temperature, with less traction, the same amount of
understeer as R9 currently has, but with less overall stability.
• Less braking bite when cold for the first couple of corners, with improvements in braking
distances during the out-lap. (Lock-ups should be created easily for the first couple of
corners or so)
Optimum Phase
• As you get to the end of the out-lap, the grip level should improve to the same sort of
grip level that R8-B has from cold, which is improved traction and better entry bite from the
front tyres, which will allow the driver to be able to push a little more by the start of the first
full lap.
• Optimum temperature should be reached ‘half way through’ the first full lap, with the
same grip as R8-B has at optimum, but with improved mid-corner bite and hold with
improved rear ‘on power stability and ‘on power’ exit stability/traction.
Overall, as you can see, both tyres are at a very good level, I feel that a good way to go is
to have the ‘Cold Phase’ characteristics of R9 with some improvements needed to be
made, with the ‘Optimum Phase’ characteristics of R8-B, which also needs improvements.
I would also like to improve the heating characteristics, which I spoke about in my first
version of this blog yesterday, but I will wait until AJ and Casey are ready to move onto it,
as I do not want to ‘jump the gun’.
I hope this helps, the car is really coming on and the FFB changes that have been given to
me have made as massive difference!
Thanks guys.
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thank you very much for going through a re-do once the FFB was sorted. This feedback is
very useful, and I think the next step is to deal with what I understand to be the biggest
issue, which is the power-on exit stability. That is the more "gross" level issue, which means
when that dials in, it'll have assorted knock-on effects. So we need to nail that biggest issue
first. r10 will be mostly focused on that...before I deal with "best of both worlds" of r8 and r9.
So my question to you Nic, is for an r10 that deals with power-on stability, would you rather
it be derived from r8 or r9? (again, we'll get to getting the best of both r8&r9 after r10).
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Nicolas Hamilton:
If I had to choose, I would choose R9 as this tyre had more rear stability both 'on' and 'off'
power compared to R8. If you go off R9 to create the R10 tyre, does this mean that it will
have the same characteristics and grip level all round that R9 currently has e.g. understeer
with mid-corner push etc but with improved rear stability, or are you able to improve the
rear stability and increase the front tyre/ overall grip level that R8-B currently has, or are you
just focussing on the rear stability for the moment and will make further changes to the rest
of the tyre after we test R10?
Nicolas Hamilton:
Ahh, I did not read your question properly so ignore what I asked you about adding overall
grip as well.
And in answer to your question, I would use R9 as the base and see where we go from
there J
Andrew Weber:
I added an r9 A/B/C test. These address exit traction to varying degrees. I can go even
"more" that the one with the most effect in the test, but that risks going noticeably outside
of what the data says. These three are within interpretation of the data.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Cool, so this is purely an exit traction test, or have you adjusted grip in other areas also? I
do not think we will need to potentially go outside of what the data says, but I will do some
testing and will let you know.
Andrew Weber:
Well, given how the tires are modeled, as physical simulations of a bunch of interrelated
physical elements, any change I make to do one thing, likely has knock-on effects
elsewhere, since I am changing parameters like material stiffnesses, damping, heat transfer
rates, rubber softness, etc. Just like if Pirelli were to try to adjust robustness by changing belt
material. Other things change too.
So, while yes, focus on if this fixes the traction issue, also keep an eye open for significant
effect otherwise. In this case, I could foresee a possible change to braking nature,
especially trail-braking. If this side effect is good, we keep it. If not, there is recourse to
address that.
In other words, this is a lot like setting up a car in general. Fix biggest issue, everything else
shifts a little. Fix next biggest issue, everything else shifts a little. And so on. The funny thing is,
where we are now, we have to also be very aware of when we are treading in setup land,
not tire parameter land. We don't want to go "setting up a car" with tire material
parameters if we don't have to. This is a blurry line though, so sometimes we do a bit of
both, like I did to get the front bite up in the first place.
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Roger that! J Thank you for explaining it further, now I know exactly what to look for J
I will have my thoughts on the current ABC tyres for you soon!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 692 and will cover the Formula C and the new
R9-ABC tyres that are available for it.
Circuit: Milan Short
Mode: Free Practice
As I normally do, I have been doing some back-to-back testing to compare all 3 tyre
variations to analyse the differences and work out the next steps that we should make in
making the tyres more realistic.
R9–A
This tyre to me took a while to read, it takes a very long time to come up to temperature
with a lot of understeer and near enough no initial bite when cold, but with good initial bite
immediately thorough high-speed. As the tyres got to around optimum, or to a
temperature that I felt was more comfortable to push on, (170) the initial bite of the front
tyres started to improve in slow-speed corners, which started to feel really good, but still
had a lot of push, scrub and understeer as you got to mid corner.
The easiest way to explain the characteristics of the front tyre is that, when cold, there is no
front bite on initial entry or mid corner hold in slow and medium speed corners, but is good
from entry, mid-corner and exit of high speed corners with the aero working well. As the
front temperatures come up, the entry bite improves to the same sort of feeling as it does
on entry to high-speed corners, but the mid-corner push and understeer feels like you are
back to a cold tyre. In simple terms, the tyre acts like a warm tyre on entry to slow and
high-speed corners, but the middle part of the tyre acts like it is completely cold at mid
corner in slow speed corners.
The tyres took around 8 to 9 laps to come up to optimum with a lot of rear instability on
power meaning you had to be very careful with throttle application when leaning on the
outside part of the tyre. As a few laps went past, it still felt very unstable and unpredictable
on the rear like you were driving in the wet, as one slight mistake with throttle application
would make the car snap with no way of getting it back.
There still seems to be a lack of ‘hold’ and stability on the outside of the rear tyre when on
power, as on exit, the car is stable, but if you turn into the next corner full throttle or
applying power, the rear tyre feels like it ‘wheel spins when the outside part is used.
Although this problem is still present, it has defiantly been improved compared to the
original R9 tyre, I would go one more step in increasing the grip on the outside part of the
tyre and increase the grip in the middle part of the front tyre to give more ‘hold’ through
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slow and medium speed corners to further increase the limit of the tyre. This tyre does feel
good to me, there are just some finer characteristics within the tyre, which is lacking in
performance and is making the car very unpredictable and lazy to drive. One more step in
increasing the outside grip would be good, to further ‘tighten’ the rear up under power.
R9-B
Ok so this tyre is interesting, I instantly felt a difference in characteristics compared to the A
tyre. From cold, this tyre is very similar to tyre A, but with even less rear stability on power
when the outside part of the rear tyre is used, but has better traction and stability in the
middle part of the rear tyre. During the cold tyre phase, there is more understeer through
high-speed, but with better initial entry bite in slow and medium speed corners than tyre A.
The characteristics of this tyre when cold pretty much feels the same at optimum, but with
more consistency and a little more grip. Under braking, there is more bite with the car
being more stable and stopping better during the braking phase compared to Tyre A.
There is better initial front bite on entry to slow speed corners, but with the same amount of
understeer and push in the middle of the corner. As the initial bite on the front is better, it
makes the grip at mid-corner feel better, but there is no real difference in comparison, as it
is all down to the improved entry bite. In terms of rear stability, I would not even use this tyre
as a point of improvement, because there is no where near enough stability on power and
is a step down from the A tyre. The most interesting aspect to take out of this tyre is the
knock-on effect that it has on the front bite, braking and also the fact that there is more
understeer when cold through high-speed, which is more realistic that improves as the
heat of the tyre increases, which is also more realistic. Another aspect to add is improved
traction in the middle part of the rear tyre.
Overall, this tyre is more realistic in terms of front tyre behaviour compared to the A tyre,
but is a step back in rear stability. This tyre I feel needs to be mixed with A, so that the front
bite and characteristics of B, the traction in the middle part of the rear tyre that B has and
stability of A should all be put together for a test.
R9-C
This tyre is very similar to the B tyre. From cold, the characteristics feel near enough the
same with the same understeer through high-speed with minimal entry bite in slow and
medium speed corners. I felt that the front tyres came up to temperature faster than tyre B
with the same sort of entry bite with the same push and understeer as the previous 2 tyres.
The biggest difference I felt was under braking with a lot less urgency and grip during the
braking phase compared to tyre B, with a lot of instability through high-speed when the
outside of the rear tyre is under load. This tyre to me was a lot less controllable with another
step down from the rear stability of tyre B with less overall grip. The positive of this tyre being
similar to B in terms of front bite and heating behaviour is that it is more realistic to how a
tyre should heat up and improve in grip level on turn-in. In terms of the rear, I would put this
tyre in the same ball-park as tyre B and take the positives of more realistic front tyre bite
characteristics.
Overall, I think it has defiantly been an improvement taking part in this test. R9-A for me is
the most realistic in terms of feeling, but tyre B has more front tyre bite and better/more
realistic characteristics in the front tyres. The rear stability of the A tyre under power still
needs to be increased by one step in my opinion but is the best out of all 3 variations. The
middle of the front tyre on all 3 compounds still need to have more grip and hold at midcorner, but not too much, as F3 cars do have a tendency to understeer a lot mid corner
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with a lot of steering input/lock needed. All I am locking for mainly is to have more stability
under power when the outside of the rear tyre is under load, which will give more
confidence when picking up the power at optimum temperature and will tighten up the
rear all together, with more initial entry bite on the front, allowing more confidence and
speed on entry.
Look at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTM8sebH-hk
otice how early the driver can pick up the throttle with steering lock still being applied.
Through high-speed on power, there is no movement from the rear and gives the driver full
confidence at full throttle when the outside of the rear tyre is under load. This is what we
need to get. Notice that the front tyres have good initial entry with a good amount of hold
mid corner but do cause a lot of understeer also. This is why I am not asking for much more
mid-corner hold, but we still need a little bit more than we currently have.
Hope this helps.
Good job guys!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
I hate to gush again, but I just love your feedback.
I have a very clear idea what to do for r10 now (don't worry, I am still factoring in the r8 vs
r9 feedback too).
Nic, I was thinking, it might be useful to run an R9-B test with a bit more rear wing, and
maybe a bit less front wing. Maybe do the same with R9-A.
Basically it sounds like we have almost enough bite, but that bite on the front can maybe
destabilize the rear at speed. Hence maybe all we need is an aero adjustment.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Ok no worries, I will give it a go with some aero adjustment. I think that using less front wing
will only make understeer worse, but the adjustment to the rear wing could produce more
stability on power. I don't think the car is unstable through high-speed, it just seems to have
a little rotation in the middle of the corner which feels a bit 'sudden', but this may be
improved with some spring and roll bar changes. I do not think that the bite of the front
tyres on R9-B unsettle the car, because it feels good on initial turn-in, it is just the middle of
the tyre during mid-corner that causes a lot of understeer and issues. I will make some wing
changes to see if I can improve rear stability on power. In the meantime I would suggest
trying to up the grip in the middle of the front tyre to see if we can carry the good feeling
of front bite for longer throughout the corner.
On another note, AJ, Casey and Doug, is there anything else other than the above that
you guys would like me to test this week?
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APRIL 2014
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Just a quick question, maybe AJ or Casey can answer this....
Are there any plans to increase overall track grip, because it seems that most cars feel
really great chassis and structure wise, but have a lot of understeer in slow speed and
instability on power and through high speed. I have been testing the R10 tyre for the FC
and feel that the tyre is not the issue and instead has a problem with track grip,
mechanical balance and aero balance. There is a lot of understeer 'off throttle', with a lot
of high speed instability with power unsettling the balance of the car in a big way.
The reason I say this is because the FC is still too lazy and very edgy on power and through
high speed. I have made changes to the setup by trying to increase rear grip and stability,
as well as trying to increase front downforce and turn-in grip, there seems to be slight
improvement, but I feel a lot of it is down to the track surface grip, as the Orca LMP2 car is
the same through high speed with not enough grip and downforce that you would expect.
The McLaren MP4-12 C feels the same with lazy front bite and understeer, with a lack of
aero performance.
Are there ways to improve the aero model on the cars so that they produce more
downforce, with track grip being increased resulting in an overall grip level increase of
around 5%? The amount of patience that is required in open wheel and high downforce
cars at the moment gives the feeling of driving in the wet with the amount of grip
available. At the moment, cold tyres feel good with good realistic characteristics, but at
optimum, there does not seem to be enough overall grip available to most cars with
consistency and the feeling of being able to push the car to the limit not being strong
enough.
I am not sure what everyone else feels, but at the moment i feel that the balance and
performance in terms of grip level that open wheel cars and GT cars produce are not high
enough yet with more factors other than the tyres causing the issue.
Casey Ringley:
Speaking for the GT and LMP cars, I agree that what you have now is too little grip. In fact,
the build going up tomorrow will have it increased a bit as well as a better heat model to
keep them from overheating too quickly. The rubber used is probably still a bit too hard for
the lighter LMP cars, but it's on the edge of being in the ballpark. Will write you some more
notes later.
Andrew Weber:
Grip is the combination of track and tire. So if it is low it is low, and could be raised either
with track or tire. In a sense, we are normalized wrt track, with the live track varying about
"1.0", so we would raise tire grip to raise grip.
With the new temperature stuff happening, we should be getting a little bit more stable
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temperature falloff behavior when "in the window". At optimum, on the offline tire rig, many
of the tires are about right on grip. However, if on track you cannot have more than one
tire ever even close to ideal behavior, the overall car grip will likely be less than realistic (as
well as balance moving around like a 2008 Honda F1). This is why what Casey is doing now
is so important. In effect, overall car grips may start to go up without raising tire or track
setting optimal grips.
Balance wise, what you are saying is clearly that we have mechanical and aero balance
off on some cars, like the FC. We need more mechanical oversteer and more aero
understeer. So I'll do that next with the FC. I'll give the FC tires more inherent oversteer, and
balance the aero more understeery in the defaults.
Also note though, that balance is balance. If we bite harder and adjust in some slow
oversteer, some drivers and driving styles are going to start saying we have LSS problems. J
As we see in current F1, especially in practice, sometimes when a car goes, it goes.
Sometimes even Lazy.
Nicolas Hamilton:
I agree with you 100%, the problem we are having at the moment when you say 'when it
goes, it goes' is that.....'it goes' in ways that are not realistic where the car is nervous on the
rear with a lot of movement which makes it feel 'edgy'. I think we need to get the base grip
of the tyres to a realistic level and then develop the balance of the car to the grip level,
because at the moment, I am trying to develop a balance with the track/ tyre not being
at a realistic grip level. Of course, when a car goes, it goes, but even when the car is
'starting to go or move, this is very hard to control, as the movement is very sudden and has
a big affect. The spins I experience at the moment feel like the car hasn't spun completely
and lost grip like IRL, but instead it loses grip and keeps 'driving' at the same time, almost
like it is being 'pulled' without you being able to control it. When it starts to go, it needs to
be controllable to some extent and lazy (especially in the wet), but when it has 'gone' it
needs to 'go completely' with no in-between, as this is what makes the spin feel
uncontrollable and unrealistic.
It sounds like Casy's changes to the Heating will make a big difference which I am very
much looking forward too.
Andrew Weber:
Would you say post-break not-complete-spin behavior it is worse now (r10) than before
(r8)? Because at one point we were "almost there", but now it sounds like we may have
veered off a bit.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Yes I do think that since we started with R8, 9 and 10, 'moments' have been harder to
control, you can control them, but you have to be very very fast with reacting and
sometimes lucky, which makes it more of a lottery, which is the issue we use to have. I think
that part of this problem is also due to the FFB because, if you took your hands off of the
wheel for example, it has a mind of its own and goes crazy sometimes in a straight line. The
feeling I get through the wheel when during a slide is the feeling of the 'motors' in the
wheel 'locking', so if you are at opposite lock, trying to control the side, the FFB makes it
harder for you to direct and control the car. I do not know the answer to the FFB because I
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have felt that this has been an issue for a long time, because IRL, the steering wheel does
not lock and fight you during a slide, you are able to move it easily to try and control the
car. When you see a driver 'fighting at the wheel' it is the balance and movement of the
car that he is fighting and not the wheel itself, whereas at the moment we have to fight
both the FFB and the car. I found the FFB issue a problem with all games that I use to race
with when I competed in Championships etc, so I use to race with a 'cheap' steering wheel
with no FFB because I felt it worked against you. It seems that most people are not
struggling with the FFB, but maybe this is because I am able to transfer directly from my real
race car to Pcars and notice and instant difference in wheel behaviour during slides. (That
comment was not meant to upset anyone, but just to make a suggestion of why I may feel
a problem that not everyone agrees with).
Casey Ringley:
An interesting note from the heat model testing work I've been doing: It was feeling really
good right from the first pass, so I started doing long sessions in the Ruf RGT-8 at Nords to
get a feel of where the temperatures stabilized and how stable they were. Turned out that
the tire, which felt even more stable and balanced than before, had become almost a full
minute per lap slower with the heating changes. The increased fluctuation in surface
temperatures was having the effect of a overall reduction in grip while still improving the
general balance. The version that hits public builds tomorrow has that heat model along
with grip increased to get performance back to the correct level. It's feeling pretty great to
me. Starting to really be able to lean on the tires and feel where you are around the limit of
grip.
Andrew Weber:
Hmm, before I throw some baby out with bathwater on tire direction, try lower FFB levels,
where you still get information from the wheel, but do not fight it. I don't want to chase tire
physics when it is really FFB latency or something like that. Since you have previous low to
no FFB experience, you'll probably discern tire behavior readily after lowering the FFB.
You could also probably adjust the optimum temperature up or down to raise grip. If
overall grip went down with new heating, then they are probably all consistently running
either a touch hot or cold. So you might be able to just move the tire optima closer to
where they stabilize.
Casey Ringley:
Yep. Ended up doing a combination of the two methods.
Nicolas Hamilton:
So as discussed with AJ last night, I have tried changing my FFB settings, but this time using
the 'F1 Menu' which some people suggested. As you can read in my previous posts, I have
always thought that the FFB worked against you when trying to control slides etc, which I
feel needs to be fixed/adjusted before we go any further in developing the tyres for the FC
in terms of behaviour during slides.
The changes I made were decreasing the 'Tyre Force', which made a lot off difference to
where the wheel was not fighting you at all and making slides easier to control. The 'Tyre
Force' creates a lot of realistic feelings if you increase it, to where you can feel kerb
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vibrations etc, but the steering wheel ends up having a mind of its own, where it turns by
itself during a slide or 'turns from left to right' in a straight line if you take your hands of the
wheel. From my comments above in previous posts, it may seem that i do not have much
experience with FFB, but I have driven many different simulators including Mclarens F1 sim
at their Factory and so i know how FFB should feel and how it should affect the car in
different situations.
As you know, I do not know the 'technical terms' for FFB, I just know the 'Feeling' it gives, so
for example, the Mclaren Sim and other sims I have driven, have a 'Base Wheel weight'
which simulates resistance when turning etc, but this weight stays the same generally and
increases as more lock is applied/more load. It does not have much detail only kerb
vibration, compared to Pcars where there is more detail/finer detail e.g. tugs on lock-ups
etc.
The difference between the FFB I am experiencing at the moment and F1 sims or most sims
I have driven is that, as you increase the tyre force, the wheel weight goes up, but the
motors have a mind of their own and shake in a straight line or turn by themselves during
slides. With increased tyre force, I think the weight and vibrations of the wheel are very
good, but there seems to be a certain position that the wheel needs to be in, in order for
the FFB not to flight or turn the wheel by itself.
If you decrease the tyre force to where there is no 'shaking' or wheel jolts in a straight line,
then this allows you to control the car a lot better. The issue then is that there is no wheel
weight at all and feels like the steering wheel is floating and is not connected to the car. In
F1 sims, the motors are smooth from left to right with the same wheel weight all the way
through rotation where at the moment we have different behaviours from the motors at
different angles of rotation or positions.
What I am looking for is a good wheel weight, that if you took your hands off the wheel,
would not shake or go crazy and would not turn on its own or fight you during slides. It is
basically the feeling of the motor smoothness of when the tyre force is set to around 0.06,
but with the same wheel weight and detail that is present when the tyre force is increased
to 0.8 etc Does anyone have any Tweaker Files that could create this?
This is really hard to explain in writing, if you guys don't understand what I am saying, then
let me know and I will do a video to explain it, as that would be better.
Thanks
Nic
Remco van Dijk:
Nic, you could try and see if this will get you what you want:
- In the Fanatec driver, turn up the Dampening/Damping/Damper (forgot how it's called)
slider to 100%
- On the wheel's LCD, set 'dPr' to 100
- In pCARS, set the Damper slider to a value that gives you a nice 'base weight' of the
wheel (start with 25 and work from there)
Please report back if this Damper value gives the feel that you are looking for.
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Ok so, I have made some changes to my FFB with added setting changes suggested by
Remco. I basically decreased the 'Tyre Force' in the F1 menu from 1.7 to 0.05, which to me
gave me a lot more control, there is still a little bit of unnecessary jolt from the wheel
sometimes, but if I decreased the tyre force anymore then there would be no feeling at all
from the wheel. I did not feel much difference in changing the Damping slider in the Pcars
menu, so I just stuck to the F1 menu and changed the tyre force there.
Having gone through R10 once again, I firstly want to say that the tyres seem to heat up a
lot faster, with different levels of load and warm-up techniques making more of an affect,
which is a step forward for sure. The rears do not seem to come up to temperature quick
enough, as it seems that accelerating does not put enough heat through the tyre. Either
way, heat build-up has been an improvement and I am looking forward to further changes
based on Casey's research.
Once at optimum, I still feel that the car is way too lazy and understeery on the front and
feels very edgy on the rear on power. The issue to me now feels more Aero based, with the
aero not performing or producing enough downforce. When the rear tyres are cold,
leaning on them is very tricky, which is too be expected, there is an improvement at
optimum but there is still too much instability at high-speed. What I would like is, to have
more Aero Performance so that the car is more aggressive on turn-in with the rear sitting
better through high speed. At the moment, the downforce/grip levels that we have with
this car I feel is around the same levels as Wet conditions.
Another thing I noticed is that the FC feels a little too quick in a straight line, obviously you
can restrict it in the Setup screen, but where the engine is set to maximum, it seems a little
to fast, are there any ways to slow it down in a straight line and make it faster when
cornering? This will then help balance lap times and overall car feeling and balance.
Casey Ringley:
Remember that our FC isn't an F3 clone. We've got a 300hp engine in it, where real F3 is
restricted down to about 210hp. I tried that in ours when doing the initial setup and it just
wasn't any fun. Didn't feel like a significant step up from the FG1000, which is what we need
it to be for the career flow. Ours will be faster than a real F3.
Andrew Weber:
Oooooh. That changes things then for sure. I actually did not know that. With that power
on F3 spec other-stuff (I put the setup close to Dallara defaults for example) it will inherently
feel skittish. Nic is right then...the thing probably needs a little more default aero. I don't
want to shy too far away from the tire grip though, since that has real (F3) data behind it.
Which we do not always have. So when we do I want to leverage it as close as possible. So
I'll go aero, like Nic suggests.
Casey, is the engine power adjust thing linear? So if I goto 2/3 on that will I basically have
an F3? I'm just curious to see how close the "F3 clone" is before we step away from that.
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Casey Ringley:
You can use the air restrictor in setup. Cut that down to 29-30mm and you'll have
something very much like a restricted F3 engine.
Andrew Weber:
Nic and Ben, go ahead and try the r11 on the FC now. It has a lot of what Nic asked for,
but there is still one more step to go. But this does have another dose of entry bite, another
dose of rear exit stability, and far better heating stability. Note that there is no "front bite"
dial or "rear exit stability" dial. It is not necessarily easy to just-add-another-dose of anything.
J At least not without a myriad of side effects. But this tire I think did a good job on those
fronts taking another step. The question is, how does it work out in practice?
Ben Collins:
Great to be back in the saddle and fresh from three days of testing the Le Mans GT car. It’s
given me a very direct perspective coming back to the Sim, and a fresh pair of eyes. I’ve
spotted a few trends in the sim that permeate the newer models.
Up for testing in this run was the Formula C with the various compounds: r9 A, B, and C as
well as r10 and the GT3 and LMP cars (with the caveat from Casey that the GT3 and LMP
currently have tyres somewhat too hard for the track conditions)
Testing done in time trial mode – ie tyres at operating temps from the get go
Formula C – tested at Laguna Seca
I went through all the compounds and could only spot minor differences here and there,
with the exception of R10 which felt the most stable. For me it was more important to focus
on the overall trends and the overriding sense I felt of areas that we could improve.
Corner Entry: on all compounds I found the corner entry had far too much understeer and
not enough turning power behind the wheel. Regardless how hard I turn the steering, I
can’t unsettle the rear. I modified the front suspension (softer) and added front wing which
helped provide a little bit of balance in some of the faster corners – but the majority
balance was unchanged.
It would be great to have more liveliness at the rear on entry and to have command of the
steering. The car is too stable on the way in, and then very punishing on the way out.
Corner Exit: to a large degree I found it difficult to have a sense of when the rear would
break free. The only sense from the FFB was long after the car slid sideways and kicked in
just as you managed to get it all corrected, I felt the steering wheel get heavier at that
point. It’s too late – the driver needs to feel the traction as it breaks away from the steering
wheel, and by the sound of tyre scrub.
What the different compounds do offer is a greater or lesser degree to which they slide
when they do break away. I felt R9 was at the harder end of the scale. R10 was much
easier to control. I also felt it had a more positive corner entry and mid corner stability, R9C
on the other hand was trickier to catch and I had a few sudden excursions to the wall.
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Traction: the car seems to lose too much stability all of a sudden when it reaches its
threshold of grip and doesn’t seem to squat enough – ie transfer weight to the rear wheels
under acceleration. We play with that feature a lot in racing to make sure that when you
apply power, there’s a positive weight transfer onto the rear tyres to give them grip. I don’t
feel that happening and this was accentuated with the Oreca LMP2 when I tried it, as
below.
Braking.
The brakes were very snatchy and locking fronts everywhere so I had to fiddle a lot with the
settings to get them to work. I had the pressure set quite high at 90 and reduced this to 65 –
then I moved the brake bias from 65% front to 50/50 (which is usually where I run a real
race car)
Initial braking balance felt good in a straight line but then whenever I braked into a corner
it would spin, regardless of the speed of the corner.
I ended up running 65% front brake for compounds R9, A, B & C but with R10 I was able to
run at 60% and had better stability.
The biggest change from the last time I tested the FC was the aggressiveness with which
the tyres locked up. I had to run a lot less brake pressure and then I felt that there wasn’t
the sensitivity of previous versions of the Sim where braking feel had been very potent, so
I’m not sure what has changed. Previously I felt there was more control in reaching lock up
and releasing the tyre from lock up, and I had more range with the brake bias without
losing rear stability.
On a minor note – it would be cool to be able to move the brake bias whilst driving as we
would benefit from this and its something we do in RL all the time. I’m sure someone will
point out that this is already possibly and that I’m a luddite!!
Summary: more turn in power and less entry u/steer would really help us, and more
feedback and feel on acceleration to be able to feed the power in. The best of the bunch
in this regards was R10 from where I was sitting.
BMW Z4 GT3 – Silverstone GP
BUGS: For some reason my system was playing up and 4th gear wasn’t working. Other bugs
of the day were the cones that acted like concrete, and the apex kerbs at Maggots that
flipped me in the Audi LMP. Lastly the grass is still far too slippery and we should be able to
run over it at an apex without it causing a spin – it’s still feeling like ice.
The BMW generally felt good, although I detected a lot of entry u/steer and lack of turn in
power – a bit like my feeling in the Formula C. I had to go back to basics and return to
Imola to do some ‘point and squirt’ testing and get my head straight, then return to
Silverstone.
The BMW is very line sensitive and some of my u/steer problem was caused by a bit of overdriving on my part, but my impression remained that there’s not nearly enough front grip
on the entry to the corner, and this leads you into the snap o/steer when you accelerate
on the way out.
The entry u/steer is pronounced at high speed corners of which Silverstone has many! So it
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really tests the front end of the car and I found this was troublesome with the BMW and the
McLaren. They need more turn in to carry speed in, balance the car and give feedback to
the driver.
At Imola I could feel Casey’s reference to the hardness of the tyre in the way the car
behaved on the brakes. It lacked grip and made stopping quite an event. It behaved a lot
better in the traditional point and squirt sense - ie stopping, squaring the corner off,
cranking the wheel in and waiting for the power and more or less a straight line.
Summary: as with the FC it would be great to have more turn in power and be able to
hustle the entry to the corner. This car would benefit from more grip too.
Oreca LMP2
Sounds Awesome and the overrun is especially lifelike as the gearbox chatters and whines.
Sweet music.
As per the above, the car would benefit from more grip and you feel this under braking. It
also has entry u/steer and snap o/steer when you pick up the first third of throttle.
With the LMP2 in particular, you would expect it to sit down on initial acceleration and
stabilize up until the point when the rear breaks traction. But without warning or any
sensation in the steering, the rear breaks free and it feels quite glassy and it happens very
quickly.
It really feels like the first take up of throttle that is causing this issue and if we could just
build in some initial ‘power understeer’ to let the rear take a set before it releases it could
really help. And is there anything that can be done on the FFB side to warn the driver of
the approaching limit? We had more feel with the older 98T builds as well as with the
Formula A.
I hope this makes sense – I know the team are working a lot with temp features at the
moment but I’m really keen to make the balance of the car right more than anything else.
And right now it’s the feedback/warning system for the driver, the corner entry phase and
having easier traction that top my list. Looking forward to the next session and have a
great weekend!! ;0
Nicolas Hamilton:
I will give R11 a go tomorrow along with the GT3 cars to give Casey some feedback.
Casey, I know you have said any GT3 car, but is there a specific car that you feel works
best with the changes in your eyes or you need most feedback on?, or shall I give all of
them a blast through?
Casey Ringley:
I'm enjoying the Audi R8 LMS a lot today with its latest changes. Maybe give that a shot,
plus any others you fancy.
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 702 and will cover the new GT3 tyres and how
they heat up/feel in different situations and times of day.
GT3 Tyres
BMW Z4 GT3
Track: Milan GP
Weather: Clear
Time of Day: 10am
Tyre Compound: Hard
TC: On
ABS: On
Run 1 – Push immediately
Ok so with this tyre, I decided to put in under different loads at different times and then
compare the feelings it gave off. My first run was to push immediately out of the pit lane to
see what characteristics the tyres showed.
Out of the pit-lane and for the first couple of corners, there is some movement on the rear
when under lateral load, which is to be expected and gives rotation and sometimes a
snap feeling of where you have to control the car to recover from the movement. This to
me is a good base of realism, as leaning on the rear tyre so soon would have the same
affect in real life. The unrealistic element of this characteristic in the first couple of corners is
that, there is too much stability, as from pushing out of the pit-lane into the entry of the first
couple of corners you could feel the rear tyres holding/gripping to stop rotation. This for me
is something that needs to be built up by the driver using warm-up techniques to increase
heat into the outside part of the rear tyres before they learn on them and should not
instantly available if they push immediately on entry.
Due to the rear tyres providing a good amount of stability intently out of the pit-lane, this
makes the overall balance of the car feel very controllable and allows the driver to
change the attitude of the car to react how they want it to on entry or through every
corner. This I feel is also due to the brakes, which I really enjoy and think they feel very
realistic. I have driven race cars with ABS and driven cars without ABS and I feel that what
we have at the moment is good in terms of instability under braking caused by ABS and is
a very good characteristic. I enjoy the fact that you can brake very late and deep, but
also brake all the way into the apex of the corner. As well as braking hard and trail braking,
there are realistic movements from the car when on the limit of the brakes with ‘squirming’,
which needs to be controlled all the way through the braking phase. This it the sort of
feeling I get from driving my Ginetta and think it really enhances the realism of the braking
phase in the game.
The above point about ABS and braking I want to link into the point, which I noted earlier
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about the car being too stable on cold tyres. So out of the pit-lane, you can brake as late
as you want and still experience good bite and grip under braking, which is unrealistic, as
braking distances and brake pressure would be affected/compromised until temperature
has increased in both the brakes and tyres. With the braking being so good to start with
and the rear producing a lot of stability, you are able to push instantly with confidence,
which I feel is unrealistic. The issues that cause you not to be instantly fast on the out-lap is
due to the understeer that the front tyres produce to start with, which is to be expected,
but can be worked around with ‘trail braking’ and applying steering lock at the same time
to get the rear to rotate. This is a very good/realistic characteristic to have (at optimum
temperature), but when cold this should be less stable, snappy and should bite you if the
wrong techniques are used and should not give you confidence to rotate the car to
minimise the understeer.
The tyre causes a lot of understeer throughout both heat phases but with each phase not
feeling very different in comparison to each other, so when cold, there is a lot of
understeer, but when at optimum there is also the same amount of understeer, but with a
little more mid-corner hold, which allows you to pick up the power earlier. To me, the car
feels very lazy and feels like you are driving in wet conditions as you are not able to attack
the corner, as the front tyre does not give enough grip. This car should have a lot more
aggression on entry and should not have the lazy, slow, scrubbing feeling that is currently
present as soon as you apply steering lock.
I found a way to get around this (like I said) with trail braking and applying lock under
braking, but the grip should be a lot better on the front. The tyres heat up at different rates,
which is realistic, but the feeling of grip to temperature change I do not feel is present and
feels the same throughout the run, whether the tyres are at 90F or 170F.
Overall in this run, I feel that you are not forced to warm the tyres up, as there is already a
lot of rear stability, I do not think we should add anymore understeer in the cold phase, I
would use the current level of understeer as cold tyre characteristics and then add more
bite and grip when at optimum. Rear stability and traction is very good in all heat phases,
which makes the car very controllable and predictable. I would just change the grip and
stability available on cold tyres to make the heating phase a lot more realistic to where
you have to ‘work’ the tyres and lastly to increase front aggression, grip and bite.
Run 2 – Realistic Warm-up
So in this run I treated it as a ‘formation lap’ or how I would heat up the tyres in a Practice
Session, which means I used real warm-up techniques to bring the tyres up to temperature.
This tyre I feel is very interesting when heating up, out of the pits, the temperatures of the
tyres are around 70/ to 80F after turn 1 with a lot of front understeer and laziness. To get a
good level of temperature, I have been trying normal heating techniques, e.g. weaving,
braking and load differentiation, which work well, but grip increase in comparison to tyre
temperature increase needs to improve.
What I was looking for in the warm-up phase was how the car feels when the tyres are cold
and how it moves and reacts when weaving.I noticed that the front tyres have good initial
bite when at slow speed ‘Formation Lap pace’ and so you cannot feel the front tyres
coming up to temperature. To start with there should not have much bite at all, with a
‘scrub then grip’ feeling as you put load through the tyre. As the temperature increases,
the front tyre should become more ‘pointy’ which can turn the rear, but at the moment
the front tyres are already pointy and turn the rear already, which means that there is too
much grip at cold tyre temperatures. Whilst warming up the tyres using the correct
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techniques, the TC was not allowing any slip, so I decided to bring the rears up to
temperature by increasing lateral load and getting the car to rotate. As I said earlier, there
is too much rear stability, but there is some instability when the rear slides past a certain
point. As I was warming up the rears by getting them to slide, I did not notice any grip
increase, meaning that rear still moved with the same amount of rotation even though the
temperature of the tyres were increasing in the HUD Display.
By the end of the out lap, I had the front tyres at 180F on the left and 160F in the right with
the rears being around 145F. As I started to pick up the pace, the rears increased in
temperature, but the overall grip available did not improve or feel any different. The front
left was a lot warmer than the right, but I feel that the front right stopped increasing in
temperature once it reached 160F and instead should increase a lap after to just below
optimum.
Overall, with this second run, I feel that there is way too much grip overall when cold
resulting in the front tyres not giving a realistic tyre ‘scrub then grip’ feeling. The same goes
to the rear tyres with some rotation when cold that does not improve at slow pace as it
should and instead only improves after you push. What I am looking for is ‘grip progression’
where the driver works to increase the grip in the tyres before pushing. At the moment, the
tyres feel like they already have good grip when cold, which means that that ‘cold tyre
phase’ feels inaccurate.
When you try and bring the tyres up to temperature using ‘warm-up techniques’, there is
no grip progression in comparison to heat/temperature build up at ‘formation lap pace’
and only really makes a difference to temperatures when you push. During the heating
phase ‘In Real Life’, you start off slowly, weaving and braking gently until there is some sort
of temperature in the tyres, which then you increase the pace slightly but carry out the
same techniques to where you feel confident to start pushing.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Casey,
I just wanted to post what I have done so far to get your thoughts and whether I am along
the right lines of what you are looking for. If this is along the correct lines, I will go onto the
Soft Compound and will go into detail of what I found. If the above is not what you want
then let me know and I can adapt/change, or re-do anything you need.
Just quickly as well, I did a few laps with the Hard Compound with the Time of Day set to
12pm and found heat increase a lot faster, but still felt that the grip progression was not
there and could only see but not feel the increase in tyre temperature.
Let me know your thoughts and then I will move onto the softer compound liked you
asked.
Thanks
Casey Ringley:
Great test. It fits in with a lot of what I'm seeing in the CPFT feedback, with the addition that
we need to turn up the cold sensitivity as well. I'll add that to my list of changes for the next
revision.
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is gong to be based on Build 702 and will cover the Formula C and the R11
and R12 Tyres that are available for it.
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Free Practice
During this test I analysed the behaviour of the tyres and how it affected the car in both
the cold tyre phase and when at optimum. I also did a couple of runs with the Restrictor set
to 30mm, as this was requested by AJ and something he wanted me to try out.
R11 – Restrictor 78mm
So before I go onto the details of my test and what I found, I want to say that I think the
car/tyres have made a ‘massive’ step forward from R9/R10 and is feeling a lot more like a
‘single seater’. I personally do not feel there is too much more to change in terms of the
tyres themselves (just some finer adjustments) but more changes to the balance may need
to be done to make changes to the setup of the car more realistic.
Cold Tyre Phase
During this phase, the car is the most responsive it has even been in terms of ‘grip
progression’ from cold to when the tyres are starting to come in. As you come out of the
pit-lane there is a lot of traction, which I feel needs to be decreased, as there is too much
grip initially as you apply the throttle for the first time. As you get to turn one, there is some
understeer with a lot of rear instability when the rear tyres are under lateral load. This for me
I feel is good, as there is a lot of movement from the rear, where you have to modulate the
throttle and control the balance of the car during the first couple of corners. The rear
movement is controllable but can bite you if you ‘over do it’, which is what I like.
As you get half way around the out-lap, the rear tyres start to become more stable/grippy,
which then builds the confidence to start loading them up laterally. This phase I feel is the
most realistic it has been so far in development due to the fact of balance change and
grip progression throughout the out-lap. I have been testing in Clear conditions, which
looks very sunny and hot and the fact that by the end of my out-lap I can get the tyres up
to around 190F and be ready to push for my next lap is very realistic. What I also like about
the upgrades to the heating model is that, the heat of the tyres are determined by the
level of load that is put through them, so if you do not push on the second part of the outlap, the tyres are not at the best temperature by the start of the next lap.
The changes I would make to the tyres in this phase are very miner. I do not know how
possible it is to make these changes due to the changes to the aero etc. but I would like to
decrease the grip available for the first couple of corners, so that there is more understeer
to start with and less traction immediately out of the put lane. I would also like to decrease
the grip available when braking for the first time into turn one or for the first 2 corners,
because at the moment there is the same amount of grip under braking on cold tyres as
there is at ‘optimum’, which means that there is no difference between grip levels in
comparison to the two phases. I would want lock-ups to be easier for the first couple of
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corners until the heat in the front tyres increases. The grip progression and heat build up I
find is great and should not change at all, I just feel there needs to be more understeer
and less traction in the middle of the tyre, out of the pit-lane and during the first 2 corners.
Other than that, I think the tyres during this phase are great.
Optimum Phase
Just like the ‘Cold Tyre Phase’ I also think that the car is the best it has been during the
‘optimum phase’ also. As I said above, as the tyres heat up they give the driver more
confidence to start pushing on them for the second part of the out-lap in preparation for
their next lap/ flying lap. This confidence is still present during the flying lap with the car
providing great initial entry bite, with the downforce of the car working to keep the front
planted during the mid-corner phase. The car starts to understeer if you ‘overload’ the
front tyres/carry too much speed into there corner where you have to wait and be patient
before you can start picking the power up. This to me has been the most realistic this type
of characteristic has been so far and really means that you can make mistakes by carrying
too much corner speed etc.
As I said above, I do feel that there is too much traction when cold, but the traction when
at optimum I feel is pretty close to perfect, in a straight line/in the middle of the rear tyre,
there is a lot of traction to where there is no wheel spin at all, but on the outside of the tyre
when under lateral load, there is a break of traction and instability, which will bite you if
you pick up the throttle too soon/be too aggressive but is controllable also if you have
applied the throttle too soon and the car gets ‘out of shape’. This for me is great, because
it means that you can be on the limit and still control the car during ‘moments’ where the
car will bite you if you are too slow in reacting.
After the first flying lap has been completed, the front left tyre has reached a temperature
of around 231F, which causes them to ’go off’ resulting in understeer and more patience
before applying throttle. I like this characteristic, as if you over-work the tyres on your flying
lap, it takes another slow lap to bring them back to the ‘sweet spot’ but in terms of race
distance, I would say that they go off/overheat a little too soon. I would like to be able to
get 3 to 4 laps out of them when pushing hard with the tyre stabilising in temperature and
grip level to where it starts ‘going off’ due to wear rate over a longer period of time.
In terms of changes I would make, this first one is not really a change, but more of an
observation to where I felt was a little unrealistic. This characteristic being the front
downforce at high-speed, where there have been a couple of occasions where I would
make a mistake when turning-in too late on entry to high-speed and beginning to
understeer towards the edge of the circuit, but then the front produces more downforce
which pulls the car back onto the correct line. In this case, I would expect that the mistake
and amount of understeer I was experiencing, to carry on resulting in me going off of the
circuit.
What I am basically saying is that at times through high speed, you can rely on the front
downforce of the car to get you out of situations, meaning that maybe we have a little too
much downforce when the car is travelling at high-speed. The second point is not a
change either and more of a question, which is, ‘Do we have access to an ‘Aero Map’ to
show the aerodynamic details of the front and rear wings so I can see what actual affect it
has on both wings when you change the values in the ‘setup screen’. This will then help in
making changes that are made to the setup of the car affect the car in the correct way. I
am not saying that what we have at the moment is wrong, I just want to see if it is possible
to have a look, as some changes may need to be made on the affects of the downforce.
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Question: Are there plans to add ‘flat spots’, the vibrations they cause and the drop off in
lap-time they cause also?
Question: Are there plans to change the animations of the tyre, so that you can see
marbles/pickup, flat spots, dirt etc. building up on the tyre over time?
R11- Restrictor 30mm
With the restrictor change this tyre is very similar, it basically has the same characteristics
but with a few differences that make it more unrealistic in some areas, but better in others.
It is the during the ‘cold tyre phase’ where I feel characteristics are more unrealistic. As
there is less power and the corner speeds are lower, the grip is available instantly from the
front tyres, causing good initial turn-in and confidence. There is some of the rear instability,
which is present with the restrictor set to 78mm, but not as unstable, which is easier to
control but also bites you if you ‘get it wrong’. The tyres take a little longer to come in due
to lower levels of tyre load, but this does not have much of an affect at the start of the first
flying lap, as you can still push at the same time as when the restrictor is set to 78mm.
I really enjoy the balance of the car when at optimum with this restrictor setting, as the
corner speeds are lower, it allows you more time to place the car and also gives you better
turn-in bite. I personally prefer the car with this restrictor setting, as it is a lot more tame and
requires more thought on entry and mid-corner where you have to keep your ‘minimum
speed’ up. The car feels the same compared to the previous setting, with still some
understeer in the mid-corner phase, which I feel is correct. The car is still very controllable
with some ‘moments’ trying to bite you, but overall the car is a lot more stable. After my
flying lap, the tyres were around 195F, which is a lot cooler compared to when the car
used the 78mm restrictor and felt more consistent during the second lap with the ‘sweet
spot of the tyres lasting longer as the temperatures where lower due to the lower load
levels.
I did a few flying laps to compare my times to Real F3 Times at Catalunya, I could better
my time obviously, but I managed a 1:40.7, where in Real Life, P1 in winter testing this year
was a 1:40.4. I know we are not planning on an F3 clone anymore, but it is impressive how
close the times are with this restrictor setting, which to me shows we have accurate
downforce levels compared to F3.
Overall either way, I really enjoy this R11 tyre whether it is using the 30mm or 78mm
restrictor. There are some changes that I would make when using the 78mm restrictor (as
explained above) which some carry over to the 30mm restrictor. With the tyres being
cooler and staying in the ‘sweet spot’ window for longer when using the 30mm restrictor in
comparison to the 78mm restrictor, it seems to me that, the R11 tyre struggles to handle the
higher corner speeds that you get with the 78mm, and could be why they overheat so
easily. If this is the case, I would make changes so that the R11 tyre can handle the high
corner speeds and stays in the ‘sweet spot’ window for longer, just like the tyre does when
using the 30mm restrictor.
R12
This tyre I feel is a step back from R11, I would say that there is a positive to take out of the
tyre, which is the understeer that it has when cold. The understeer on the front is a lot more
out of the pit-lane than with the R11 tyre, which sort of makes me want to put the
characteristics of the R12 tyre when cold together with the R11 tyre. When I say this I mean
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that the understeer that the R12 tyre has when cold for the first couple of corners, was
what I was asking for as an improvement to R11 during this phase, but the R12 tyre does
not seem to improve in terms of front or rear grip throughout the out-lap even though the
tyre temperatures are increasing. To put it simply, I would just have R12 cold tyres at the
front for the first 2 or 3 corners of the out-lap, but then have the characteristics of the R11
tyre afterwards.
I find this tyre, (as I said) a lot more understeery, with less front bite overall, even with the
tyres at optimum. During the ‘heating phase’, as well as understeer, there is more ‘snap’
oversteer, as it feels that the front tyres understeer, but once the rears get to a point of
lateral load, the car snaps. Unlike R11, the ‘grip progression is not as affective and less
noticeable, as the rear instability feels the same throughout the lap and does not seem to
improve, maybe slightly, but not enough.
Overall, at optimum, there is too much understeer and not enough rear stability compared
to R11. I would take the behaviour of the front tyres of R12 and add it to R11 for the first
couple of corners to where the tyre becomes exactly like R11 afterwards. (I hope you guys
can understand that, it is very confusing J)
Lastly, I just wanted to add, the animation of the drivers legs when sitting in the car are too
far away and the driver moving his leg ‘across’ to brake is incorrect. What should happen is
that the ‘resting position’ of the legs are a lot closer and you should only see the ‘knee
extend/move as the driver brakes or accelerates.
Great job guys,
I hope this helps!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback. Great as usual. Here is some feedback to feedback after an
initial read. I usually read your feedback several more times though, so I don't miss
anything.
Yes, it should be possible to slicken pit-out and and first couple corners without too much
side effect. It is for sure possible with a couple lines of code (adding another control
parameter to cold falloff). It is likely possible with just the parameters already exposed.
I think you also verified that the downforce upgrade is maybe a small step too much.
Myself, and others on WMD, agree. So the diffuser downforce will take a small step back,
and maybe the front wing default will take a click out.
We have flat spots, but the FC wear rate may be too low to get them easily. Basically we
do wear per element of the tire, so if an element wears a lot extra, you have a flat spot.
And vibration, re-lock on the flat spot, etc, just falls out. But the FC is a little hard to get that
to happen. So maybe we increase either the wear rate, the effect of overheating on wear,
or both.
I do not know about animations. I was actually going to ask a question about that myself:
are we going to get graining animation as well. If not, I may just defer graining, because
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without the visual cues, graining can seem sort of spooky, and like there is something
wrong with the tire model.
The R13 sounds like a decent response to your R12 feedback. You should try that next.
Although a better response will probably be to adjust the cold falloff of the R11. That will be
done in the R14.
Nicolas Hamilton:
AJ, Casey and Doug,
Is there anything specific you guys would like me to test out this week?
Casey, I see you have extended testing on the GT3 tyres for this week, is there anything you
would like my feedback on regarding this subject?
AJ, anything regarding the FC?
Let me know if I can help.
Nic
Andrew Weber:
R14 is almost done. I checked it in, but have just a few more minor adjustments tonight. It
should be in the next build.
There are a lot of variants. Treat the variants like a menu. I built them that way as much as
possible. Each variant has a distinct alteration you can either choose to keep or not.
So for each variant, compare with the base, R14-0. And if you do not like R14 more than
R11, we can apply the menu items to R11 instead. But for this test, compare all variants
against R14-0.
Now, R14-0 itself, you can compare to R11. That would be choosing the favored base.
Then we apply the menu items chosen to the favored base.
After this round, the intent is to have the FC at "alpha", and I'll move onto FB and FFB.
Ben Collins:
Project Cars FC tyre models
Happy Easter Folks - i hope the bunny drops an egg right where you want it!
On my way to Silverstone for round 1 of the FIA World Endurance Champs and keeping
tabs on the rapid changes going through the Formula C at the moment. I would have a
better chance of staying current if my caveman internet speed could up its game as it
seems we have some chunky new software coming through at the moment and i'm
choking the grid in wurzel land here..
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This is a very basic review before i get a chance to fiddle and experiment with things like
restrictors and cold tyres.
Cold Tyres & warming - i've been finding the tyre warming aspect a little frustrating in terms
of how little grip the car has, which accentuates the lack of force feedback i feel, and the
duration of low grip on cold tyres. I'm used to them coming in much faster and being
considerably easier to drive on. As a result, hands up, i've been skipping it and running time
trial mode. My gut feeling is that its better to focus on the end product, and then come
back to the cold to hot tyre feel because otherwise we could chase around in circles
Having finished up recently with the R10 review on the Formula C, a nudge from AJ sent
me in for a shot at the newer spec models.
R11 - a step forward in driveable traction but it still has too much entry u/steer
R12 - instantly felt less comfortable on this tyre, the front was less predictable and was
ploughing at the apex, braking was also harder to feel with a sudden reduction in grip at
the end of the braking zone
R13 - it felt closer to 11 with a little more movement and hopping from the rear on exit,
which i felt was positive
13A - more predictable front end and i felt the transition from apex u/steer o/steer was a
step forward with this compound. 13B felt similar and i need more time on it to comment
further.
Braking: I noticed that a lot of the brake adjustments i made (lower brake pressure and
front bias) were useless on this new batch of compounds. With the low brake pressure the
tyres didn't find their limit until the end of braking and then snatched the rears on turn in.
Did anybody else experience this?
Summary: the only reason for posting an incomplete review at this stage is to stress a key
theme which remains throughout this new range of compounds and those that precede
them: there's too much understeer and not enough steering power.
With a single seater, the nose should always go where you point it, up until the point when
the rear breaks free on corner entry. I cannot get the rear to brake free and get it to slide
anywhere on turn in. Currently it feels like we are fine tuning a car that has 30% of the turn
in it should really be capable of. Whilst we are still experimenting, could we perhaps throw
in a wildcard with a mega high grip front tyre compound and see what it does?
Have a great weekend everyone and excited to try out the new batch of tests !
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback. It is late for me right now...I'll digest it more tomorrow. But...
I just checked in an R11N tire per your request, which is not mega high in grip, but higher. It
is about F1 level rubber in front with normal R11 rubber in the rear. So not mega, and still
within realistic (as in, someone could manufacture it) limits. Not sure if it will make the next
build.
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Ben Collins:
Thank you AJ - had a fun session doing the audio last week and ready for a full assault on
the FC tyres including the cold runs as requested. I'm so lazy - too spoiled with tyre warmers.
Even with tyre ovens much of our conversation at Silverstone for WEC revolved around
different feelings on hot tyres out of the oven and difficulty at colder temps.
Excited to try the R11N and come back to you on that - are there any changes afoot on
the FA or the 98T ?
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is going to be based on Build 709 and will cover the Mclaren MP4-12C. During
this test, my aim is to test the new upgrades on the GT3 tyres, where I will look at the Soft
and Medium Compound tyre and will give feedback on the differences in behaviour from
cold to optimum.
Mclaren MP4-12C
I have decided to put most of my feedback in bullet points as it will be easier for you guys
to read instead of putting it all in long sentences.
Cold Phase – Quick Race Mode – Medium Compound
• Too much initial front bite where the front feels just as positive as when the tyres are at
optimum. As the front tyres have a lot of initial bite immediately, when weaving, the fronts
are very aggressive and turn the rear, as the rears are stone cold. The fronts need to be a
lot less aggressive/grippy to start with, with more initial understeer/ less bite for the first
couple of corners, which makes the front more lazy and the rear not as edgy.
• As well as ‘too good’ initial front entry bite, there is too much stability all round, with the
car feeling near enough the same as when the tyres are at optimum. On the medium tyre,
there is less stability on the rear, but with too much forgiveness. By this I mean that the rear
moves and ‘dances’ around, but there is too much grip available at the outside of the rear
tyres to where it is very predictable. On entry, the car turns ‘too’ well with the rear rotating,
but there is too much stability on the rear for the cold temperatures of which the tyres are
at. At the moment, you can feel the car squat and grip when the rear is under load, which
is good when at optimum, but this is too stable for the first couple of corners when the tyres
are cold. More initial understeer is needed, making the front less pointy, with a little less
stability at the rear resulting in more of a slide than a grip/squat.
• On the rear, I would decrease the grip on both the outside and middle of the tyre, to
allow wheel-spin (from a standstill with TC off) and to take away the feeling of grip
immediately.
• The rear tyres are taking too long to come up to temperature, with no wheel-spin at all to
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start with and no increase in temperature when under load, sometimes there is, but this is
not sensitive enough. They only seem to increase in temperature when under lateral load,
where increase in temperature under throttle application needs to be more sensitive.
• Braking distances are the same when cold, with the too much grip/bite immediately.
Lock-ups need to be easier initially for the first two corners or so.
• Brake temperatures do not seem to help increase tyre temperature with no affect from
brake temperature helping with the heating phase.
• As the tyres heat up, there is no big difference in feel from cold to optimum, as the grip
available is near enough the same. The difference is the rear, as it gains more grip, there is
less rotation as they heat up, making it more stable.
• I did notice that there is a break of rear traction when the outside of the rear tyre is used
through a corner and when under power. This is sort of the same feeling that we had with
the rear tyres of the FC, so I would say that we need to move the grip instability so that the
middle part of the tyre causes the break of traction instead.
Overall, this phase does not feel too far away, there are just some fine adjustments to
make this phase more realistic. The pointy front immediately out of the pit lane is the big
issue, as this throws the rear around, which it would in real life, but then you can feel the
grip on the rear instantly as well that makes it more unrealistic. Less grip at the front with less
grip at the rear with more slides/snaps and a brake of traction to start with, with the all
round grip improving from corner to corner is the way to go.
Optimum Temperature – Time Trial Mode – Medium Compound
• At optimum, this tyre I feel is quite lazy, with better initial entry bite than previous in
medium speed corners, but with a lot of mid-corner understeer and push through highspeed and medium-speed corners. The front-end will ‘go in’ well initially, but then starts to
scrub and understeer a lot at mid-corner. The aero on the front helps with the understeer
issue to some extent, as well as the instability/rotation on the rear, but I feel there needs to
be more bite/hold during the mid corner phase, as it feels very lazy in this part of the
corner.
• I think the car feels pretty good when at optimum, the initial entry bite is good and the
rear moves around, but is settled at the same time, meaning you can place the car where
you want. My only cause for concern is that it feels that in order to make the front ‘go
in’/turn better, the rear has had to make sacrifices in terms of grip level and so now, the
only way the car turns is down to rear rotation and ‘lift off rotation’. This to me feels
unrealistic and instead I would give the rear more grip so that the rotation is not as ‘over
powering’ and give the front even more grip to mimic the grip increase of the rear, so that
we keep the same initial entry bite
In a nutshell, I feel that this tyre makes the rear too stable when cold and too unstable
when at optimum, to the point that you rely on the rotation of the rear to turn the car.
Optimum Temperature – Time Trial Mode – Soft Compound
Ok so this tyre I feel is pretty good at optimum.
• Good entry bite, that to me feels near enough the same as the medium compound, but
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with better bite/hold during mid-corner, but only slightly. There is still too much mid-corner
understeer, so I would increase the bite/grip and mid-corner hold slightly, as there is too
much push in medium speed and high-speed speed corners. Slow speed seems ok, as the
diff helps with this.
• More rear stability, which takes away some of the ‘wild’ rotation that was present on the
medium tyre, this to me feels more realistic and can be adapted with setup changes.
• Braking is a lot better, with more grip under braking, allowing you to brake later but still
lock-up if you over do it.
There is not much to say with this tyre at optimum because the tyre feels good, I would just
focus on increasing mid-corner grip, as there is too much understeer. The rear to me feels
fine.
Hope this helps Casey, I did a cold tyre run with the soft compound, but found it another
stage up in regards to grip in comparison to the medium compound. The soft tyre needs to
have the same characteristics when cold as the medium tyre in the really early stages of
the out lap, but then grip-up/ heat up faster. At the moment, the grip is already there
immediately.
Thanks guys!
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
Also Casey, something to add to my previous blog, grip on kerbs need to be increased, this
has been an issue for a while. At the moment, it is a lottery in which kerbs you can and
cannot use in the dry. If you put your front wheels over/on a kerb whilst turning, the car just
wants to rotate or spin. Maybe this is on the bottom of your 'to do list' I just thought I would
mention it anyway
Andrew Weber:
When you get to the R14 series, be sure to include kerb handling in your testing. The R14
does include a change that should improve kerbs, making them both less numb, but also
less lottery. And see if R14B goes too far on that aspect.
Nicolas Hamilton:
AJ,
Quick question before I get into testing the FC, do the different variants of R14 have the
same 'base characteristics' of R14-0 but with different characteristics added in for each
different tyre? So R14-0 is the base and then R14-A has the same base as R14-0 but with an
additive?
I will have my blog/feedback for you tomorrow.
Hope this is ok.
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Thanks buddy
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Nic, exactly.
So with a little grooming on my part I could say "Nic wants more of B and E, and less of
whatever A is", and I know precisely what to do for the next tire. Of course there will be
some interactions, that is unavoidable, but I set this up such that they should be minimal.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 712 and will cover the R14 tyre and all of the
variants available. My plan is to use R14-0 as the base tyre and then compare each variant
to that tyre and then come up with a tyre with characteristics of each variant rolled into
one.
Circuit: Besos GP
R14-0
Cold Tyre Phase
From cold, this tyre feels pretty decent. There is a lot of understeer, but with a low level of
front entry bite, which is an improvement compared to previous, as now the front tyres do
not feel like complete ice to start with. The level of instability on the rear I feel is good when
the middle part of the rear tyre is used, as there is snap when too much throttle is applied
too soon.
My cause for concern is the feeling you get when the rear tyres are under load laterally, as
at the moment, initial turn-in is lazy and understeery, which is good, but there is an
unrealistic rotation on the rear which happens when the outside of the rear tyre is used,
regardless of the speed carried on entry or through the corner. The easiest way to explain
this in writing is if I break it down into phases.
• You turn into turn 1 out of the pit-lane, the front understeer’s with rear movement on
power
• You turn into turn 3, which is the long right-hander, the front understeer’s initially as the
speed carried is not enough to where the rears are under high load, but as you get to the
middle part of the corner carrying the same amount of speed, the rear rotates, which then
puts the outside of the rear tyre under load and snaps.
This to me is very unrealistic, as rear snap/instability when cold is caused by putting the rear
under too much load immediately to where the tyres are not at a hot enough temperature
to handle the amount of speed/load carried or applied. Whereas at the moment, the rear
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rotates and snaps at the wrong type of cornering speeds/loads and feels like it is more
‘programmed to happen’ rather than happen naturally.
• I really struggled to get any decent temperature into the tyres. To me it seems that the
heating parameters need to be more sensitive, so that the tyre increases in temperature
more with the different types of load being put through them. This already happens to
some extent, but the rear tyres do not seem to increase in temperature at all when throttle
has been applied, as it seems that the temperature increases, but then drops instantly to
the previous temperature. This feels the same as the GT3 tyres, where they only seem to
increase in temperature with lateral load and not through power, which needs to be
improved.
• Braking when on cold tyres I feel is still ‘too good’, with the window between the initial hit
of the brake pedal to when the tyres lock needing to be shorter for the first couple of
corners.
• I would give the front more understeer than it has at the moment, as even though I said
earlier that there is a good amount of ‘low initial entry bite’, I still feel there needs to be just
a ‘tiny’ bit less when the tyres are stone cold, to where it improves in bite/grip level to
where it currently is after the first corner or so.
• Just like with the GT3 tyres, I feel that the front tyres are too aggressive with minimal input,
as when weaving gently on the straight, the front-end is too pointy to the point where it
throws the rear around a great deal. The easiest way to explain the feeling is like the front
tyres are on rails and the rear tyres are not, so that every slight turn of the wheel when
weaving, instantly points the car in that direction, but too quickly, almost like the steering
sensitivity is too high.
Optimum Temperature
At optimum, the car feels pretty solid, there is good initial entry bite, with a little bit of
understeer mid-corner that can be dialled out/improved in setup changes.
• Through slow speed I feel there is a tiny bit too much understeer, where I think the car
needs to be more aggressive/ ‘pointy’ both on entry and in the middle of the corner, as
the front tyres seem to struggle/scrub and understeer a little too much.
• Braking is very good with a lot of grip, allowing you to brake late and all the way into the
apex of the corner if needed. I ‘picky point’ I would like to make is to maybe add some
independent locking on the unloaded front tyre on entry to some corners, to make the shift
in weight change the balance of the car more realistically.
• The main ‘sticky’ characteristic with this tyre, is the lack of rear stability and rotation. As I
spoke about previously with the unrealistic rotation when the outside of the rear tyre is
used, the issue carries over to when the tyre is at optimum. That being said, the rear tyre is
a little more stabile, but from my point of view, the rear is too edgy and ‘floaty’, as it
constantly feels like you are controlling the rear movement through a corner and hoping
that through high-speed corners it hangs on. There is just too much oversteer and instability
when under lateral load, which takes away confidence and feels like the car is trying to kill
you. I would add some more rear stability on the outside of the tyre, as to me, this is a tyre
issue and not a setup issue.
All in all, this tyre has its ‘up’s and downs’ with most of the issues being caused by the lack
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of rear stability both when cold and when at optimum. I think the cold phase needs to be
a little more realistic with the rear not rotating as soon as the outside part of the tyre is used
regardless of the speed being carried on entry or through the corner, but to also have
realistic temperature increases based on different loads being put through the tyres, with
more of an increase in grip as the heat increases.
R14-A
So this tyre is very similar to R14-0, there is the same amount of grip under braking and initial
entry bite, with the same ‘hint’ of understeer mid-corner, which to me feels nice. The main
difference I felt with this tyre was the rear stability, with a little more grip and a little more
forgiveness and not so much of an aggressive ‘snap’ or slide. The rotation still felt too overpowering for me, with the rear still wanting to turn at high speed or when under lateral
load, but the rate of rotation was slower and less ‘sudden’/aggressive. I would say that this
tyre was a step forward in this area compared to R14-0 but with still too much instability
and unpredictability on the rear.
R14-B
This tyre so far in comparison to the previous two is the best, due to more initial bite under
braking meaning that you can brake later and deeper, as well as more rear stability, which
builds confidence and is another step forward in improvement, but the rear is still too edgy
through medium and high speed corners and so I feel it needs to be increased even more.
The way it feels to me is that, it is all down to steering input, where the more you turn
through the corner, the more the car will rotate, but as the grip increases on the rear, the
more you are allowed to turn. This to me should not be the case, as you are always
‘treading on egg shells’ to try and find the correct amount of input to be fast, but not to
lean on the tyre too much, to where it will snap.
Over kerbs, this tyre feels fine to me, with a decent amount of grip, which allows you to use
them naturally and not too much grip to where they ‘sucker’ you in. One thing I do like in
terms of the details to the kerbs is how your wheel/tyre can get stuck between the edge of
the kerb and the concrete, which tries to pull you off the track. You can feel this in the FFB
too and is a great detail to have.
R14-C
This tyre is more of an aggressive version of the R14-0 tyre, with the same amount of rear
instability, but with more aggressive front initial bite, which the rear struggles to hang on to.
Personally, I would say that the increase in front bite with this tyre makes the rotation issue
worse and is a step back, but if you were to put the front initial bite onto the R14-B tyre,
then this will improve initial entry, with more of a realistic chance of the rear holding. I
would not count this tyre out, because we can use the aggression of the front tyres to our
advantage once we sort the rear stability out.
R14-D
Ok, so as I work my way through the tyres, I would say that so far, in terms of balance, this
tyre is the best. The tyre feels a lot more lazy and docile in comparison to the others and
this makes the rear movement/rotation a lot more natural and controllable. It has pretty
much shown me that the issue with the rear rotation is due to the aggression of the front
tyres and not so much a rear stability issue. There is still some rotation and unrealistic
instability and wheel-spin on the outside of the rear tyre, so it is also down to rear stability,
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but a lot of it is front aggression.
The interesting characteristic I felt with this tyre was that, there is more understeer in total,
but the entry bite is not affected too much. It almost feels like the input of the steering
wheel has slowed down a little at the same time to where the entry bite feels the same but
the front tyre does not bite as much during the mid-corner phase, which makes the rear a
lot more stable through high-speed and also on entry to high-speed. In total there is too
much understeer, but this to me has been the biggest step forward in improving rear
stability with the car being a lot more controllable and not so wild.
R14-E
This tyre feels like a similar/improved version of R14-C with similar initial entry bite, but with
more rear stability, which makes the front feel a lot better initially. Personally, this tyre has
the best front bite so far, but is let down by the lack of rear stability through high-speed. As I
said, it is an improvement to R14-C in terms of rear stability, but there is still too much
movement/rotation. With the improved balance of the rotation on the rear, it has
improved slow speed understeer, but this is purely down to the rear rotating and not down
to the front tyre producing the grip. This tyre for me is the best in initial front bite but needs
to have characteristics of the other variants of R14 to make it the full package.
R14-G
This tyre is a very similar/slightly better version of R14-D with more understeer but improved
rear stability both through medium and high-speed corners. The interesting characteristic I
found with this tyre was that, the initial entry bite is less aggressive and more lazy in
comparison to the other variants, but there seems to be another phase in the entry bite
after the initial entry (if you understand what I mean.) The initial entry is more lazy but then
the front bites more to bring the front in. This to me is the ‘best of both worlds’ where the
initial bite is more docile to settle the rear on the way in, but then has more bite afterwards,
which helps minimise understeer.
Overall balance wise, I think it is very close between this tyre and R14-D, but at the moment
I think I would chose this tyre due to the great front hold and stability through high speed
with hardly any rotation. On exit of medium speed corners, there is still instability at the rear,
which to me needs to be improved and still feels unrealistic, but the high-speed stability
and hold is the biggest step forward. This tyre has more understeer than R14-D but I think it
has better all round characteristics based on its behaviour through high-speed corners.
R14-N
This tyre is the best so far, with pretty much everything I have been asking for throughout
this blog other less slow-speed mid-corner understeer. The car to me feels really great,
there is a lot of grip all round with great initial entry bite with no rear instability at all through
medium speed and high-speed corners. Part of me feels that there is too much traction on
power, where the car needs to move more on power and be more ‘free’. There feels like
there is a little too much high-speed understeer, but this is me being picky and can be
adjusted I’m sure with setup changes. I would like to experience some more movements
under braking, with the car squirming, as at the moment, it is too safe on this tyre, both
under braking and on power. I feel that we now need to make driver skill more important
to make the tyre a little more realistic. Basically, the balance is very good, I feel we need to
add in some more natural movements/instability for the car to feel more realistic when on
the limit.
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R14 – T
Ok so this tyre is sort of a mix of B, E and N with great initial entry bite, which E had, together
with the high and medium speed stability that N had, but with less rear stability and grip
than N, which is sort of like B but better. This tyre I think is the best version of all of the
variants that I spoke about before tyre N and is a great step forward. This tyre is also very
close to tyre N because it has better slow speed grip during the mid-corner phase, which is
what I have also been asking for. What lets the tyre down and makes N the better ‘all
round’ tyre is the fact that the rear movement feels quite unnatural as the movement is
past the mid-corner phase, which makes it feel like the rear is floating. There is still a good
amount of grip regardless of the movement, but it moves and rotates in the wrong phase
of the corner in my eyes.
R14-W
This tyre I feel is very similar to R14-T but with another step up in terms of rear stability/grip.
Front entry bite is near enough the same with more rear stability through medium and highspeed corners in comparison to R14-T. This tyre feels more natural on rear instability than all
of the other variants, as there are improvements to on-power grip when the outside of the
rear tyre is used, but also has some instability, which needs controlling when on the limit.
Through high-speed, the car is planted and settled with no ‘floaty’ feeling, which is great.
The balance between stability and instability with this tyre at the rear is what makes it feel
more natural to drive, but there is still some parts of the outside of the tyre that bites you a
little too much when used, this is very fine detail but needs to be looked into. Slow speed
understeer feels near enough the same as R14-N with a little step backwards compared to
the slow speed grip of R14-T.
Overall, it has been a great test, I am personally feeling that we should try these variants
against R11, as part of me feels that this is a better base tyre to work from with more rear
stability which feels more natural. I will leave this up to you AJ.
To finish off, I would say that Nic’s Tyre would be the stability and all round performance of
R-14-N with the slow-speed mid-corner grip of R14-T, with the rear movement and small
power instability of R14-W. I think that making the driver work harder when on the limit, with
the car moving slightly under braking and on power is the best way to go, because at the
moment, we are making great progress and the car is getting easier and more realistic to
drive, but is yet to have the fine details/ movements that a driver has to go through every
lap.
Thanks guys
Great work!
Nic
Ian Bell:
Great feedback Nic.
Casey Ringley:
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If that's not a comprehensive test, I don't know what is.
FYI, Nic, the new revision of GT tires went live today and is worth a try. In addition to the
usual stuff, there are proper intermediate and full wet options to test as well.
Andrew Weber:
Thanks NIc. Great as usual. I think from here we can get to a release candidate FC tire.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Is there anything I missed AJ? Did you get the information you needed? Did I pick out the
correct alterations between the tyres? Let me know if you need me to re-do it.
Thanks
Andrew Weber:
What the correct alterations are are what you say, by definition. J By alteration, I mean
what needs to change. But yes, you mostly reflected what is acutally different. The most
interesting one is N, because N still has my typo in it. That was particularly revealing.
The extra thing you could do is test the G tires through their graining. The "temp" HUD tires
are actually graining level, not temperature. All we want for graining is something that
brings it in as a factor in a simple way, and correct for as far as it goes. We do not have
enough time to get super particular about graining on first release.
OK, as I am trying to put together how much of which to blend into a release candidate,
there is one variant I am having trouble making jive. That is E. If you could give E some
more detail then maybe I can figure out what to do with that one. The rest all make sense.
Thanks.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Sorry for the delay on this weeks blog guys, I will have it done and ready tomorrow.
Casey, is this ok or do you need some feedback tonight? I have been doing some testing
on the new GT3 tyres and have been doing cold phase to optimum like I normally do, is
that ok? Is there any specific compound you would like me to test, or shall I just go through
all 3 and then the wet tyres? are there any specific signs you are looking for and want me
to focus on?
AJ, let me know when is good to go back and test the FC again to cover all of the things
you needed me to go over again from last week. I am not sure if Ben covered what you
asked me to do in his post today, but let me know either way. It seems Ben likes the N tyre
also :D
Either way guys, we are making some massive steps forward right now, each week, it is
getting harder and harder to pick faults and suggest improvements, which makes my job
harder but is credit to everyone involved J
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Lets keep pushing! J
Nic
Casey Ringley:
Take all the time you need. I'm wrapped up in some non-physics stuff right now anyway.
The usual tests plus some time on the inters and wets in various levels of wet weather would
be nice, thanks.
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MAY 2014
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 717 and will cover the updates to the GT3
Tyres, where I will be testing the Medium and Soft Compound tyres.
Car: BMW M3 GT3
Circuit: Besos GP
Optimum Phase: Time Trial Mode
Cold Phase: Free Practice Mode
Having completed many laps on both the Medium and Soft tyre compounds, I think that
the base performance, balance and feeling of the tyres are at a really good level now.
You are able to push on them lap after lap, with a little overheating sometimes when
putting the tyre under too much load to where the tyre starts to go off. I think now we are
in the phase where, the base performance and feeling is there and correct, but just need
to make some small adjustments to the characteristics of the tyres to make them more
realistic in different situations/phases.
Soft Compound – Optimum Phase
So this weekend I have done a lot of flying laps with the Soft tyre, as my friends and I have
been doing Time Trial shoot-outs to give them their first taste of Pcars and for me to do
some more analysing whilst putting the car on the limit. This tyre I feel is very solid overall, it
gives a great overall balance, which is controllable at the limit but also is hard to ‘keep at
the limit’ as the car moves and squirms around a lot, which is a great improvement. When
pushing, the tyres now give you warning signs of the rear being unstable or wanting to
snap, instead of the snap happening instantly with no warning, which was the case a
couple of months ago.
What I really enjoy about this tyre is how it has different behaviours when at the limit, so it
has very good initial front entry bite, with the rear giving you the feeling of sitting/squatting
which also gives you the feeling that you are using the outside part of the rear tyre, which is
the feeling you need, as this tells you where the limit of the tyre is and that the tyres are up
to optimum temperature. As well as being/feeling planted, the car moves, squirms and
dances around on the brakes, which needs controlling and to me is very realistic. On exit,
traction is also very good, consistent and predictable, but will snap/ bite you if you ‘over
do it’, as I found myself controlling the car on the brakes on the way into the corner and
controlling the car on power on the way out, which to me gives you the feeling that you
are on the limit and is a nice feeling to have, as this is very realistic and shows the big
improvements we have made.
Mid-corner I feel is a little too lazy, especially through high-speed, where there is a lot of
understeer and push. In terms of improvement, this is the only characteristic I would like to
change/improve. I do not want to feel more aero pulling you through the corner to
change this characteristic, but instead I would like more high-speed hold/grip during midcorner e.g. more grip under higher load from the front tyres. Improving the mid corner
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understeer at high speed will make the car feel even more realistic with setup changes, as
at the moment I have been playing around with setup to make the rear rotate more to
minimise the understeer, where in real life, I never have my car rotating on the rear as I like
it planted and settled and use the brakes to rotate the rear if I really need to. With another
fine adjustment, we should not need to loosen the rear to get it to rotate to minimise
understeer. Of course everyone has their own feeling and some like the rear being loose
etc. so they can keep rear rotation after we make the tyre characteristic change, but from
basic feeling, you should not need to rotate the car instantly to minimise understeer, the
front tyre bite/ hold should be good enough in basic setup circumstances, to where you
can make more adjustments to improve understeer over time.
Medium Compound – Cold Phase
So to me, if I was being completely honest, this tyre does not feel like it has a cold phase at
all, as there is grip pretty much everywhere instantly with just a little more rear rotation on
initial turn-in but that is it. You can push pretty much instantly with no issues or moments,
where you can brake just as late as when the tyres are at optimum with the same squat
feeling on the rear straight away. To me it feels that the overall improvement to the grip
and performance of both the Medium Compound and the Soft Compound tyres when at
optimum have transferred over to when the tyre is cold as well, so you get the same basic
feeling of grip and balance, but with a little bit more instability on entry.
The two different phases need to feel completely different, with the car feeling lively,
slippery and difficult to drive for the first couple of corners of the out-lap, with the tyres
improving and increasing in grip and balance throughout the lap to where (depending on
tack and air temperature) the tyres are ready to push on by the end of the out lap. I am
not sure what is achievable/possible physics wise, but what I think we need is the feeling of
2 different types of tyre from cold phase to optimum, so when cold, the tyre is slippery with
no grip and is a completely different tyre in terms of feeling compared to when the tyre is
at optimum.
To put it simply, my question is, would it be possible to have 2 different tyre variations for the
two different types of phases. E.g.
Cold Phase = Tyre A
Optimum Phase = Tyre B
Would it then be possible to start with Tyre A when cold, which eventually becomes tyre B
when at optimum, so as you begin to heat up the tyres, the variation of the tyres begin to
mix and transform at the end of the heating phase.
As I said, I am not sure what is possible physics wise, but I am just trying to find a way to
where we can make the tyre feel completely different during the two phases, as when the
tyres are cold in real life, the car feels horrible and then feels amazing when at optimum,
whereas at the moment, this tyre feels pretty decent when cold with not much of a
change and then feels great at optimum.
Overall, the improvements to the tyres have been great. As you can tell from my Soft
Compound runs, I think they are very positive and very realistic. The area I feel we need to
work on most is the cold phase, as this phase is ‘too good’ overall. If there is a way to have
one of the earlier tyre revisions where there is no grip or stability at all, then I would like to
have this revision and develop a cold tyre. We are nearly there with the tyre at optimum,
the cold phase is the one that needs work.
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Casey, before I go rushing into the GT3 Wet tyres, I want to spend a little longer on them, as
wet conditions are a lot more complicated due to the different variants in grip level. I will
work on them tomorrow for you. I want to take more time on them before giving you my
thoughts if that is ok, but initial thoughts are that the Rain tyre is not bad at all for a first
pass, the characteristics of the tyre need to change in terms of how the balance of the car
changes etc. but I will go into more detail on this tomorrow after I have done some proper
runs on them.
Hope this is ok.
Nic
Casey Ringley:
Good stuff, thanks. I'll try a B revision next time with a large increase in cold sensitivity to see
what you think. You'll have to test it on a GT4 car, though, as all GT3s are getting tire
warmers in the next build. I knew they were allowed in WEC, but apparently it is common
to use them in other GT3 series as well.
Take all the time you need on those wets. I'm still stuck in some particle system stuff for
collision effects.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is carrying on from my last post, which was based on the GT3 Slick Tyres, but
this post is based on the GT3 Wet Tyres that are also available.
Track: Besos GP
Car: BMW M3 GT
Weather: Rain
Mode: Free Practice
GT3 Rain Tyre
So as I said before, the wet is a very special type of condition which requires a lot of skill, a
lot of mental strength and can usually separate the ‘Men from the boys’ if you know what I
mean. There are so many different variants in the wet that a driver has to take into
account in order to be fast. From my personal experience, the wet is all about ‘feeling’,
feeling where the grip is, knowing where to/where not to push, where the puddles are etc.
It all depends on how realistic we want to go into the wet and decide what sort of
variables the drivers have to think about whilst driving in the wet.
So with these tyres, as I said before, they are not a bad first shot at creating a wet tyre,
there are just some characteristic changes we need to make in order for the feeling to be
improved. In the wet, the first thing that crosses my mind is ‘laziness’, understeer and if you
are in RWD, power-oversteer. Wet tyres in my experience are very slow in terms balance,
depending on how you have the car set-up. The balance on the tyres is very stable and
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forgiving with everything happening at a slower/ lazier pace, from rear rotation, to initial
turn-in to throttle application on exit. Below I am going to bullet points my thoughts of the
GT3 Rain Tyre and suggest improvements as I go along.
Braking
• Too much grip under braking allowing you to brake in the same places’ as in the dry.
Braking needs to have a lot less grip, with reduced bite and increased sensitivity for lockups. Too much stability balance wise, with no rear movement under braking. Squirming
and rear instability needs to be introduced to help simulate the ‘Tread/Blocks’ of the tyre
moving around under braking, which causes instability. Lock-ups on downshifts are also
common with the driver having to use the clutch to stop the locking. In Clio Cup, this was
the case, where the fronts would lock-up on downshifts, but the Ginetta did not lock up
much at all on downshifts with the new paddle-shift system.
Traction
• Way too much traction in the middle part of the rear tyre, with a lot of grip instantly from
throttle application out of the pit-lane. There seems to be only a little bit of power-instability
when applying throttle through a corner, which is good and feels correct, but there needs
to be a lot less traction in the middle, where throttle modulation plays more of a part.
• Throttle modulation with RWD is the most important skill to get right in the wet, as this
determines the quality of your exit, as well as the behaviour of the car during the exit
phase. The ‘tricky’ part is that you want to get on the throttle as early as possible, but not
too early to the point that it ‘spins up’ the rear wheels. At the moment, you can pretty
much ‘plant’ your foot on the throttle and not worry about any traction issues. This is all
down to too much grip being available in the middle part of the rear tyre. Wheel-spins form
a standstill need to be more sensitive with modulation becoming more important/ skilful at
corner exit.
Balance
• Initial front bite/turn-in is too positive; more laziness initially is needed, as the front is too
pointy and aggressive at the moment. In real life, initial front bite in the wet is pretty poor,
depending on where the grip is and the line you are taking. A lot of the front tyre
characteristics require patience and car control, with the patience coming from the front
having a lot of initial understeer that does not grip up properly until mid-corner. This is sort of
like the ‘slide and grip’ feeling I was talking about a while ago when you are heating the
tyres up, this is the same sort of feeling, but on the front where the front slides/understeer’s
and then grips up in the middle of the corner. At the moment, the initial grip is there
instability where you do not have to wait for it to grip up. Some corners require patience to
wait for the understeer to minimise, but this is also the case in the dry, so in theory, the
corners where I have a lot of understeer in the dry should be even worse in the wet.
• Rear stability/grip is also too high with the same squat feeling that you get in the dry. In
the wet, the squat feeling is not very noticeable as it is more of a ‘floaty’ feeling to where
the rear tyre slides and then has a normal ‘grip-up’ feeling when it reaches the outside part
of the rear tyre. The rear tyres in the wet do not produce enough overall grip to give off a
squat feeling like there is in the dry, it is just a slide and grip when the rear is under load. At
the moment there is not enough instability and rotation/slide at the rear with the rear
squatting and gripping a lot on entry and through mid-corner. More of a lazy slide is
needed to where the rear then grips up. In a nutshell, the front needs to be more lazy on
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initial turn in and gripping up mid-corner, with the rear being more unstable on entry until it
grips up at mid-corner, with a more lazy/ floaty feeling from the rear on entry, mid-corner
and exit. The rear is always moving in RWD, so the rear instability and ‘floaty’ feeling is
always present through all corner phases.
Puddles/ Aquaplaning
Puddles need to be avoided at all times, they cause Aquaplaning, which can cause a lot
of instability from lock-ups to violent snaps that are impossible to control/catch. Wet tyres
produce a lot of grip overall in my eyes for what they have to do, the only time they
become useless is in ‘monsoon’ conditions where there is too much water on the track
surface for the tyres to cope with. This is when aquaplaning is at its worst with hardly no grip
anywhere with the tyres sitting on top of the water instead of clearing it away. This causes
wheel-spin in a straight line, snap oversteer, chronic understeer and is the most difficult
condition to drive in, (other than being on slicks in the wet.)
My point above is that at the moment, puddles do not seem to make any difference to
overall grip level, they do not cause aquaplaning at the moment or any instability. Every
puddle at the moment is the same size, where there needs to be different puddles of
different sizes and depths, which affect the car in different ways. Another thing that drivers
have to take into account is ‘Puddles in Cambered Corners’ where the water runs down
the camber and creates a puddle in the middle of the apex. Turn one at Oulton Park is a
prime example, as well as ‘Sterlings Bend’ at Brands Hatch, this sort of thing needs to be
added to make puddles more realistic and affective.
Grip Variation
Grip variation is the most important characteristic to have in the game when in wet
conditions I think, as this is what makes the wet conditions live up to it’s name. The wet is all
about finding where the grip is, meaning that you have to search for it, doing ‘trail and
error’ lap after lap until you find it at every corner. The best drivers find the grip the
quickest, but also use it to their advantage in the best way. At the moment, the track grip
level is the same throughout all sections of the ‘track surface’, outside, middle and inside,
which takes away the ‘grip searching factor’ as there is grip everywhere. The general rule is
that the grip on most track surfaces is ‘Off-line’ where the rubber is not, but this does vary
at each track and depends on the level of water on the surface.
This then explains the reason why you see drivers going very deep into a corner, where
they are very far off of the racing line they would use in the dry to get the grip. Another
technique that drivers use is a ‘V Shaped’ line where the driver goes into the corner
‘deep’, stops it at a point, straightens the car up and ‘squares’ the corner off. This means
that they can go in fast, turn-in where the grip is, which minimises understeer and then
accelerate where the grip is also to maximise traction. Drivers also use a technique of
‘braking off-line’, where they approach the corner, braking a little off of the usual racing
line to get a little more grip to minimise lock-up and maximise grip and stopping power on
entry to the corner. As I said, different tracks, track surfaces and water levels affect
different lines and grip levels, but we need to add grip variation to make the wet
conditions more realistic.
Kerbs/Paint
Kerbs are very slippery in real life and are pretty much like ice in the wet together with the
painted lines that outline the track surface. Painted surfaces and kerbs are to be avoided
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as much as possible, but this again depends on the water level and nature of the kerb. In
RWD cars, kerbs on the exit will produce power-oversteer and wheel-spin, where FWD will
have a lot of understeer and push. At the moment, there is way too much grip on all of the
kerbs in the wet, which need to be decreased together with the white lines that outline the
edge of the track surface. Astro-turf in the dry is very grippy and can be really good to use
on the exit of corners, but in the wet, this is the complete opposite and is just as dangerous
as using the kerbs. As I said, this all depends on the water level and overall track conditions.
Overall, this post has been aimed to try and teach some of you guys what wet conditions
are all about, as well as giving some advice and improvements on the GT3 Rain Tyre. As I
said earlier, the basic characteristics of the tyre are at a decent level; it is all about pinpointing the finer characteristics and making them more realistic. The wet is very hard to
simulate as there are so many different variables, but from what we have already
achieved so far with Pcars, this should be a ‘walk in the park’.
Hope this helps!
Nic
Casey Ringley:
Thanks, Nic. When you get a minute, could you try the same car/tyre/track combo in storm
and thunderstorm conditions? Doesn't need a full detailed report, but I'm interested to hear
how you feel about those two compared to the standard 'rain' settings.
Ben Collins:
Project Cars – Build 714
R11 – 14 tyre testing
Circuit: Laguna Seca
Before I moved into the new R14 tyre testing I did a recap on the previous models for
comparison, and also had a run on the tyre (R11N) that AJ very kindly laid on for me..
GOALS
1. More front bite
2. More front feedback and tyre absorption
3. Easier car to drive and feel
4. Smooth transition from u/steer to o/steer as you pick up throttle
5. Easier traction, feel and feedback
R11 N – this tyre was a request by yours truly to pack some punch into the front end of the
car by increasing front grip.
I hoped to achieve a very positive initial turn in and I remain focused on that goal. The R11
N was an unadulterated spinfest :D – the extra front grip really disturbed the balance of the
car and made it almost impossible to turn into a corner without suffering terminal o/steer
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on: turn in, mid corner, and as soon as you touched the throttle.
In many ways it represents some of the extreme set up changes I’ve been running (zero
rear wing / max front) in order to raise turn in, but without the stability to see it through. That
said if the rear was somehow able to cope with such a pointy nose then we might be able
to create a super dynamic. Please skip to the R14 N to hear more.
INTRO
The remainder of the tyres follow a fairly similar pattern in terms of general handling
qualities (with the exception of R14 N) in that there’s an underlying understeer to varying
degrees, and a tricky rear traction issue to varying degrees.
R12 – at the higher end of the scale in terms of general u/steer, especially high & medium
speed corners. It really ploughs.
The odd additional feature with this tyre is that the rear loses stability at the end of the
braking zone on initial turn in, and as a general rule with the sim as it stands – once you lose
the tail it’s hard to catch it.
The TRANSITION from u/steer to o/steer was tricky and traction generally twitchy and hard
to control.
R13 – better front grip, still some apex u/steer. The transition from u/steer to o/steer on this
tyre felt better, at first, and then you run into a wall of o/steer that is hard to control.
I found this sensation very interesting because the initial take up at the rear end was good
and I could almost feel engine torque playing a part in the way the car went from being
settled into a more serious slide. Potentially a feature that could aid stability?
Braking grip felt good and v controllable
R13A – transition from u/s to o/s definitely better on this tyre. Traction was more controllable
on corner exit and the car responds well to throttle inputs. I really liked driving on this and
found the car more forgiving – as a result I starting getting picky and wanting more
feedback from the steering wheel but that’s another issue for Logitech perhaps.
R13B – felt similar to A – the transition is a little more sophisticated at first, then you do feel
the surge of power flooding the rear end and traction requires your full attention. It was a
little trickier on low speed corner exit.
R14O – pretty good – there’s the same underlying u/steer as the earlier models but the
initial turn-in is quite potent and I feel I have more control over that. In some places I felt
the transition was really good but in medium speed corners or slower, the rear really
attacks you when it breaks free and very hard to control it.
R14A – initially this felt very good, a little easier to drive but largely similar to R14O – I need
to revisit because I had a glitch of some kind and the front tyre was overheating (390
degrees) which shot the handling to hell and I couldn’t get rid of the problem yesterday.
R14B – at high speed I found this tyre had more underlying u/steer and it was less
predictable.
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It did do something quite interest at Turn 1 (a downhill 2nd gear slow corner) – after turn in,
which was crisp, the car was inclined to rotate a little on the throttle and I really liked that. I
wondered if this is linked to some of the improved ‘transition’ on initial power that I noticed
since R13. Does it have something to do with the diff? The exit at Turn 1 was incredibly
graceful
I think this is an important feature because it balances some of the u/steer without making
the rear a nightmare.
That said I found traction elsewhere around the track difficult on this tyre on harder
acceleration as I tried to approach the limit, especially the final corner which was fairly
slow and flatter, the car really snapped from a neutral u/steer to an ice like o/steer.
R14C – felt very similar to B, but slightly harder to control on traction.
R14D – again it felt very similar to B & C, with a little more stability under braking.
R14E – there’s something very likeable about the way the car turns into the corner, it feels
natural and I felt that it might be linked to the grip and control under braking. It feels very
precise and as with R14B it noticeably turns when you initially accelerate, but it does retain
the tricky traction issue if you press on towards the limit.
There’s a looser feeling with this tyre, you can almost feel the car rolling on the tyre block.
The o/steer, whilst still hard to control, did feel more predictable at least by virtue of this
rolling feeling. Body roll in the chassis is something I’ve mentioned before and believe it
could help the driver recognize duress building in the tyres.
R14G – this had more u/steer and was a little easier to control in terms of traction – I’m
afraid I need to revisit because my other front tyre (left) overheated with this tyre and reappeared whenever I re-loaded / rebooted.
R14N – well hello. This tyre is different gravy altogether to all the other tyres and you guys
can’t hide it in here by thinking we won’t notice it in the middle of the alphabet. It really is
nothing like the other compounds at all.
This tyre makes me feel like I’m in a real car. It is practically un-spinnable and I had to
double check that the traction control hadn’t been activated by mistake.
There’s a high level of overall grip overall, an excellent balance front to rear and the
traction issue is non-existent - you can just attack everywhere. This tyre is SO stable, and SO
well supported that I wonder if my Frankenstein experiment on the R11N, with the super
high grip front end, might actually work with this one.
As much as I love this compound, it doesn’t really let you drift the tail on corner exit at all. I
personally prefer that to spinning all the time, but I wonder if there’s a way to tweak in
some more movement at the rear. GREAT JOB!
R14T – back to the previous balance of R14B. Traction issues at low speed and perhaps a
little easier transition in medium speed.
R14W – similar to T but with a better initial turn in.
Being honest – I found it hard to go back to T & W after experiencing R14N and my brain
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was racing for answers. Why is N so different? Does this mean we can play with a more
aggressive front end like 11N, with the sophistication of R14E’s entry and some of its rear
float on corner exit?
Conclusion
R14N is a sea change and a major step forward from my perspective and I hope that some
of the minor adjustments and features in the other compounds can be used to tune in
some more exotic handling for this tyre. It is the only tyre that addresses the traction
problem and still retains a lot of the fun side of this Sim.
I hope this is useful and realise I’m a little late getting this back to you so my apologies. Very
interested to see what comes out next and to try the GT rubber. Please let me know if any
particular tyre is being singled out from the feedback so far and where i should focus next
Have a great weekend everyone!
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the great feedback.
In addition to the main theme (more grip...which is what "N" says), there are some details in
there that are validating some other things. In particular, what you say about B and E.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 723 and will cover the GT Rain Tyres in Storm
and Thunderstorm conditions, as well as the R15 Formula C Tyre.
Circuit: Besos GP
Car: BMW M3 GT
GT Rain Tyre
Ok so Casey has not asked for a ‘fully detailed’ report on these tyres, as I gave a lot of
information in my post last week, but he is interested to see the differences I found in the
different wet conditions. So, in this test I compared my feelings in the ‘Standard Wet/rain
Conditions’ to my feelings in the Thunderstorm and Storm conditions and found it very
interesting in how different the characteristics from rain, to both types of storm were and
how it affected the physics of the car, as well as driving style.
Thunderstorm Conditions
With this condition setting, I think the realism of wet conditions has improved in comparison
to the ‘standard rain conditions’ with rear traction becoming the main/more realistic
factor. In terms of general grip, I still feel there is too much, where the car is too stable on
entry, with not much movement both under braking and through the corner, which allows
you to get away with too much. Less initial front bite is needed, with the tyres needing to
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feel lazier initially, but mid-corner behaviour/grip feels pretty decent. With the wet tyre, we
need to feel a lot of laziness both on the front and rear, with lazy understeer and a lack of
initial entry bite at the front, and lazy slides/movements on the rear. As I went through this
test, I found myself thinking that this condition setting makes the wet conditions more
realistic but still unrealistic in other areas at the same time.
Realistic/Unrealistic
Traction: Traction is a lot more realistic in terms of throttle application and is more sensitive
to wheel-spin, which requires a lot of thought both when controlling the car and when
pushing to the limit.
Lack of traction or the requirement to control/ modulate the throttle to minimise traction is
only needed when the rear tyres are under lateral load. There is no wheel-spin or lack of
traction at all when applying throttle from a standstill or when the middle part of the tyre is
under load.
More realism is needed when the middle part of the tyre is under load (less grip) allowing
more wheel-spin and instability. I would give more grip/ traction under power when the
outside part of the rear tyre is used, which basically means that I feel we need to swap the
characteristics of the rear tyre around, so that there is less traction/ grip in the middle and
more traction/grip under power on the outside.
Aquaplaning is present and is a realistic characteristic in some areas, as it affects traction
and requires control/ thought and skill, which is more realistic in comparison to the
‘standard rain conditions’.
Too much aquaplaning on exit of corners, where the car gains traction initially, but then
wheel-spins and looses traction again after the main exit/traction phase has been
completed when shifting up to 3rd and 4th gear. This feels like you are going through a
‘huge’ puddle and if you are lucky, the car just hits the ‘rev limiter’ and stays straight, but
most of the time it gives an unrealistic snap.
Aquaplaning can still happen after the exit phase and can happen at any phase of a
corner, but at the moment, out of some corners (Turn 3 and the Last Corner) there is
constant aquaplaning with no realistic reaction from the tyres, where there needs to be
some feeling of the tyres re-gaining grip, but this depends on the depth of the water on the
surface.
Braking: There is still way too much grip under braking with no real improvement in terms of
realism in this phase. Less grip is needed, making lock-ups more of an issue and more
realistic to control, which should increase braking distances. At the moment, braking in the
dry/wet conditions in all condition settings is the same.
Storm Conditions
So these conditions are near enough the same as the ‘Thunderstorm Conditions,’ but do
not have the unrealistic wheel-spin and aquaplaning issues, which makes these conditions
more enjoyable to drive. Even though they are more enjoyable, there are still
areas/characteristics that are unrealistic and need to be improved. The characteristics
that I feel need to be improved are everything I have mentioned above and in my post
from last week.
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One thing I would add is that, lack of traction under lateral load has become more clear
since I have driven in this condition more and would further recommend that more grip
and stability under power is needed when the outside part of the rear tyre is used with less
stability and traction in the middle part of the tyre. At the moment, there is great/too much
traction in the middle part of the tyre, which gives you confidence when applying throttle,
but as soon as the outside part of the tyre is touched, there is a major snap and no chance
of getting the car back. Swapping these characteristics over will make the traction and
stability phase more realistic in my eyes.
FC Sick - R15
Circuit: Besos GP
Cold/Optimum Phase
So I agree with AJ on this and think that the car is way too easy to drive on cold tyres. The
thing with this tyre now is that, the base foundation of the tyre is at such a good level, that
it is now too good for the cold tyre phase. I personally feel that there is too much traction in
this phase, especially out of the pit-lane. If you accelerate from a standstill, you get some
wheel-spin, which is then corrected by the rear tyres gripping up a short while after. With
the tyres completely stone cold, I would expect a lot more wheel-spin, which in some
cases will threaten to turn the rear. A decrease in grip for the rear tyres I feel is needed to
make the tyres more sensitive to wheel-spin, which will make the exit of the pit-lane and
the first couple of corners on cold tyres more realistic
The differences I felt with the tyre cold, was just a little more understeer initially, with a little
more instability through high speed when the rear tyres are loading up. There is still too
much grip and traction available after the first couple of corners as you can push
immediately and even with the rear moving, there is some twitchiness, but is not bad
enough which makes you think, ‘wait, let the tyres heat up first before I start to push’. All
you get is a little understeer mid-corner, with a bit of instability from the rear at high speed,
which means good overall grip instantly with good traction and no feelings of the cold
temperatures wanting to unsettle the car.
The front does not have enough understeer initially, as the aero pulls the car through the
corner instead. Less initial entry bite is needed to make the front lazier, which will decrease
corner speeds, resulting in the aero working less, which altogether makes the driver more
dependable on the grip/ heat of the tyre instead of the downforce that the aero
produces. Grip under braking is also too good with lock-ups happening at the same
section/phase of the braking zone with no variation from when the tyres are cold to when
they reach optimum.
This tyre I feel has the same sort of characteristics under power as the GT3 tyres in terms of
the grip available in both the middle and the outside part of the rear tyre. The feeling is
near enough the same, with good grip in the middle part of the tyre, but then a snap and
not much grip on the outside part of the tyre. This issue makes the cold phase of this tyre
more unrealistic, as the snap and lack of grip only occurs when you apply the throttle
when turning and not due to the rear braking away when you carry too much corner
speed in comparison to the heat of the tyres. What I mean is that, the front tyres understeer
when too much speed is carried in, which is correct, but the rear is completely settled and
only moves on power when the rears are under lateral load and means that you do not
get any oversteer/ movements when learning on the outside of the rear tyre when ‘rolling’
the speed in.
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In a nutshell:
• The front tyres need less initial bite immediately out of the pit-lane
• There is too much rear stability instantly also, with rear instability not being harsh enough
and not affecting the balance of the car enough.
• The rear only moves on power and under lateral load, where the rear should also
experience oversteer moments if too much load is being put through the tyre on entry ‘to
and through’ a corner (off power).
• The rear tyres need less traction when they are stone cold, which will make wheel-spins
more sensitive.
• Braking grip needs to be decreased, allowing lock-ups to be easier and increasing
braking distances for the early part of the out lap.
At Optimum Temperature, I really do not think there is much to complain about, the car is
very planted, controllable and consistent. The only characteristic I would like to
change/improve is rear traction and grip when initial power is applied. This characteristic is
very much the same as when the tyre is cold, where there is a lot of grip and traction
available in the middle of the tyre, which only breaks traction when turning and applying
throttle. I personally feel that the rear is too stable on power, which allows you to ‘plant’
your foot to the floor without having to modulate and control the balance of the car. I
think there needs to be less grip available in the middle of the rear tyre when at optimum,
to make throttle modulation more of a factor when pushing the car to the limit, as at the
moment, power application is too easy and should require more skill when applying
throttle, which bites you, snaps and moves if too much power is used at the wrong time or
the wrong technique is used during the exit phase of the corner.
Overall, this tyre I feel is pretty much there in terms of optimum behaviour, I would just like
to change the grip available under power, to make controlling/applying power more
realistic and more of a skill. As AJ said, the cold tyre phase is most concerning and in my
eyes is going to be the hardest phase to ‘get right’/ replicate, but I think we can get pretty
close if the changes I am asking for are achievable in terms of physics behaviour.
The wet GT3 tyres are also at a decent base level, with a few characteristics needing to be
changed mainly due to grip level. Once this is at a more realistic level, then the finer
characteristics of grip variation etc. can be brought in to make the overall feeling and
experience of the wet conditions as accurate as possible.
I hope this helps guys,
I will be back next week to carry on pushing development forward and will be around on
the WMD Forum to keep an eye on proceedings whilst I am away. If there is anything else I
can do, just shout!
P.S, I noticed that the engine sound in the FC was a lot lower than normal. Are there any
plans to improve the sound of the engine and tyres etc? I am sure there is!
Thanks guys.
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Nic
Casey Ringley:
No other differences. Also note that GT3 cars start FP with warmed tires now. To get a fully
cold test, you will want the M3 GT4 with the MediumN1 tire.
Andrew Weber:
Thank Nic. Great feedback.
I think I have to bite the bullet and make the cold falloff a little more sophisticated. I have
a good handle on what needs to happen to get the cold phase results you ask for, but it
will take a slight model improvement. R16 will have this.
The traction one I'll work on as well. This one should be pretty straightforward.
Andrew Weber:
The FC R16 tire is ready whenever you are. J
Nicolas Hamilton:
Great, I have just arrived home, so will get working on it. Can you tell me the changes you
have made from R15 to R16 so I know what to focus on.
Thanks,
P.S, Casey if there is anything you need me to work on for you, then just let me know.
Looking back to last week, I never gave you my feedback on the GT3 N1 tyre, which had
increased cold sensitivity if I am not mistaken. I will get to work on that also.
Glad to be back J
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So this post is going to be based on Build 729 and will cover the FC-R16, which is available
for the Formula C.
Formula C - R16
Ok so now I have less to comment on with this car, as we are near enough there, which I
think is great. I have noticed a lot of changes with this tyre, which I really like, as it seems
that AJ has taken my advice on-board and has near enough created a tyre that I wanted
and stated in my previous blog post. To be completely honest, there is not much to
change at all other than a few minor characteristics, which I think would just tighten up the
balance a little more and will improve overall realism.
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So compared to R15, I found that the overall balance/performance of the car felt a lot
more realistic both during the cold tyre and optimum tyre phase. From cold, there is a lot
more wheel-spin and instability immediately out of the pit-lane, which you have to be
careful of when applying throttle, as well as instant lock-ups/ more sensitive lock ups for the
first couple of corners, which to me has improved realism instantly before you even begin
your out lap.
During the out lap, there is a lot more instability both on and off power, with the rear
rotating/moving and sometimes snapping if you carry too much speed through the corner
and overloading the cold tyre, with the rear moving on power at exit, which requires more
technique and more realistic throttle modulation. I personally feel that the front tyres both
when cold and when at optimum react very realistically and do not have much to say in
terms of improving the characteristics of the front tyres. At optimum, the car and balance
has improved compared to R15, too me, the car feels more ‘free’ as it moves and dances
around both on and off power and requires a lot more control and thought compared to
R15 and does not feel like the car is on train rails, where the balance feels good but is more
technical to drive.
In terms of improvements, I personally feel that the grip available on outside of the rear
tyres both when cold and at optimum is too low, as at the moment the low level of grip on
this part of the tyre gives unrealistic movements/snap both on and off power. This is really
hard to explain, as the lack of grip on this part of the tyre also gives the car the ‘free’
feeling, but an unrealistic feeling at the same time. The behaviour of the rear tyres feel very
similar to previous builds, where there seemed to be a lot of instability on the outside part
of the tyre when under load and a good level of grip in the middle part of the tyre.
Now it seems that there is less traction/grip in the middle part of the tyre when cold, which
is an improvement for this phase, with less grip on the outside of the tyre when cold also,
but as the tyre heats up, there is the same amount of grip as before in the middle part of
the tyre but with less grip on the outside, which means that the car only moves and breaks
traction when the outside part of the tyre is under load, instead of the middle part spinning
and losing traction as well. I feel that to get the car moving more ‘freely’, like it is at the
moment, it seems that it has all come from a grip reduction on the outside of the rear tyre,
to where it now feels less stable at mid-corner and exit, with a lot of snap oversteer
together with the rear feeling like it is turning the car instead of the aero and the front tyres
doing most of the early part of the turning phase.
My suggestion is to reduce the grip in the middle part of the rear tyre a couple more steps,
to where it is the middle part of the tyre that brakes traction and unsettles the car, with the
outside of the rear tyre holding when under load, but braking away when overloaded.
Once the tyres heat up, there is too much grip in the middle part of the tyre, but not a lot
on the outside, which causes slightly unrealistic throttle modulation and tyre fall-off. I would
have less stability/traction in the middle, with some instability on the outside but with
enough to hold and get you out of trouble, that will break away if overloaded. From
experience in real life, sometimes it is the grip that the outside of the rear tyres produce
when at optimum temperature that saves you from mistakes you have made, whereas at
the moment, it punishes you more than it should.
Sorry to be a pain!
Hope this helps, we are very close with this car, not many changes needed now!
Nic J
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Andrew Weber:
I think I know what will finish this off. Both the front and the rears are "hybrid" tires, not pure
radial, having some bias ply ness to them. The rears are closer to radial though, which
evens the contact patch out, across outside, middle, inside. I think making the rears the
same level of hybrid as the fronts are might do the trick (by which I mean adding in a little
more bias ply). This will make the outside load harder during cornering, and the middle
(and inside) less. That will result in slightly less grip efficiency, but a little more rear "edge". Of
course this is then counterable/adjustable with rear camber, but that then trades off
against straight line traction and braking. This sounds like what you are asking for.
Ben Collins:
PCARS - racing in the wet
I love driving in the wet and always have. A lot of drivers fear it because there are certain
pitfalls and when you make a mistake there's a lot less friction preventing the car, and your
melon, from meeting the wall. It's also not something that many of use get to practise too
often - even pro racing teams will refuse to let drivers practise in the rain for fear of
damaging the cars. Visibility is restricted and speed differentials between the adventurous
types and the shit-your-pants-when-it-drizzles brigade is high, which leads to some colossal
shunts.
Living and going through the racing ranks in Britain certainly helps english ducks get used
to the water, and its a phenomenal way to develop sensitivity for the car and the effect of
driver inputs. Replicating that within a sim is no mean feat - which is probably why most
'games' have steered clear of wet weather simulations like they carried a communicable
disease.
I've been quietly waiting.. and now we have wet weather racing.. and it's fantastic.
Before i slipped on my waterproof lederhosen and started splashing around i did a few runs
in different machines so that i could pick my track and car. So bear with me as i build up to
wet weather from a 'this is where we in the dry' perspective.
Bmw z4 gt3 - Imola
Default tyre
Initial runs - rear tyre locking and oversteer - i adjusted to 65 brake % front bias to stop it
and possibly would need to go further.
Corner entry - Over rotation after heavy braking on turn in for all slow corners, the wants to
spin and its hard to feel what is causing it - and this is despite releasing the brake.
Braking and entering into tamburello esses the car understeers at first (which it does
generally at anything above medium speed) then the rear snaps and spins from the
combination of braking and turning - this has been a historical problem for us.
The car spins on apex kerbs both off and on the throttle - you can't use them it just turns the
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car way too much.
General cornering balance is understeer with this unusual tail action which makes the Z3 a
really tricky customer to drive and very unnatural. I decided to look elsewhere for my wet
test ride.
Switching to M3 GT3
Holy **** it's so good
Immediately i felt more at home in the M3 - the feedback in every sense was better and in
particular through the steering, in terms of lock up and also during cornering (though i still
want more and more and more feedback - please let me loose on Logitech for a day!)
The M3 balance is awesome but what is special about this car is the reaction on
acceleration, the first touch of throttle, because it balances out the understeer and starts
to turn the car. THIS IS VITAL
You can drive the car on the throttle and get it to float as you lay on the initial power, let
the car take a set, then modulate your way out of the corner. This is the sensation I've been
waiting for - I think it could do with a hint more grip with the same sliding affect and we
would have this nailed 100 per cent. So i would dare to say the effect is a hint too much
but we really need to keep this trend.
The M3 is equally good in terms of braking feel and feedback, though I definitely think we
need lock up indicator lights on the dashboard as these are common now in GT3 and we
use them in wec to confirm when one of the tyres is locking. I have the same level of feel
now as when I'm driving the real car and hunger for the same confirmation on braking
threshold
Like the Z4 there is too much osteer on the kerbs and i can hear the inside wheel spinning
when it shouldn't, but the general feel from traction on drive is fantastic.
This car makes you want to drive and drive.
"Rain" on gt3 rain tyre
Graphics
It's the first thing you notice as you drive out of the pits. I realise grey skies are part of the
landscape but i found the screen too dark (at Silverstone especially for some reason) and
would suggest lighter colours so we can see more of what is going on. But most
importantly, the Blue droplets representing rain on the screen are slightly too much for me it's like oil and reducing too much vision, but i helped myself a bit by moving my nose onto
the end of the steering wheel. LOL. It isn't that bad in RL
General Feel
Excellent!
Braking
There seems to be the right amount of braking grip, which is higher than most people
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expect in the wet, and it is user friendly which is great. I really would not want it any less
predictable personally - except on puddles which i deal with later
Traction is a bit tricky at first - that cool initial slide that this car has on initial power (which
would benefit from a higher grip threshold in the dry) would also benefit from a little more
grip in the wet. In fact i would say that the way the car takes a set in the dry would be
perfect for the wet condition, and my thoughts on traction run through the different levels
of wet that i tried.
Driving in the wet is actually quite easy and no different to driving in the dry (except for line
choice when relevant) as long as you apply the throttle slowly. We had the full spectrum in
the first FIA WEC race this year at Silverstone, from slicks in the wet, to intermediates and full
wets on a wet track.
Getting my car (Ferrari 458 GT3) to settle into a drift that took me all the way through the
medium speed corners was surprisingly easy and i had it nicely lit all the way onto the pit
straight and ditto the kink towards brooklands. Even in 4th gear through Copse the car was
stable to drift. The grip was predictable and we are very close to that on the sim so i'm
delighted. (ps i led throughout the wet part of the race in case you wondered is sliding was
slow - in the rain its not)
Focusing this back to the Sim - the car feels quite slippery on traction but it's all good - I just
think it lacks a little grip and balance in some corners. There's an underlying understeer in
medium speed corners which I would love to reduce in terms of trimming the balance.
Slow corner balance really feels good.
Summary - my buck stops here because Rain has the right grip level for all wet running in
my view. We don't want or need trickier traction or lazy handling, at least not until tyre
wear comes into play - because the tyre blocks eventually melt and then the car starts
rolling more. This felt great and my wife had to drag me out of the chair kicking and
screaming
"Storm"
Storm really exaggerates the tendency for the car to slide as soon as you creep onto the
throttle. I loved this effect during dry running because we have lacked the ability to drive
the car on the throttle previously but in this wet setting it goes too far.
The way that the sim is behaving now is taking us closer to that driveability but as I say I
think we need to dial back the lack of grip in the wet on initial throttle. It would be much
more realistic and easier to drive if we had the dry level of initial slide on power and THEN
start to develop a little wheelspin if you try to push for 100 throttle too quickly. When i drove
the sim carefully I wasn't expect so much sliding so early on into the throttle. I hope that
makes sense - it's tons of fun to drive!
Thunderstorm
Superb great job with the graphics and the puddles. The puddles genuinely seem to
produce wheelspin, you can hear and feel it, and if you pick your line you can actually
avoid them and stay on full throttle - bravo! I had no idea that you could actually achieve
that on a sim - it has to be a world first!
But the drop in grip level is too much - my feeling is that Rain is as low as we should go in
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terms of grip level and that we should add in the puddle effects just as they are now. To
me that would be realism: more grip with a sharp wheelspin when you hit standing water because the tyre can either make dry contact with the tarmac or it cant (it uses pressure
to cut and bite until the molecules dry out) and then you aquaplane. Aquaplane is the
major factor slowing you down in the rain, more than grip on the tarmac.
The low grip in Thunder mode makes it really really hard to lay on power and the rear goes
ghostly light on the way into slow corners, which was too much for me but I can really see
the potential in terms of the graphics and realism on those puddles.
The only other thing we might investigate is standing water in the braking areas - as in the
straights the aquaplane would be speed related so if you hit a big puddle on the brakes
with too much speed you should suffer until you land :D
Summary
In all it's fantastic. The on power initial slide works great in the dry but needs dialling back
for the wet to allow a progressive exit from the corner without quite so much fuss. As the
speed builds I'm happy to accept some wheelspin over puddles in storm and
thunderstorm, as well as in the rain setting if i tramp the gas too hard too soon but I don't
expect quite so much yaw so early into the throttle
On turn in for slow corners we have a bit too much entry oversteer and in medium to high
speed corners there's a but too much understeer. (Don't I want it all.!?)
Soft slick in rain - i tried it and the car was fine so i don't think we have covered this yet!
General Realism - i read through Nic's comments about kerbs and painted lines. On certain
tracks the painted kerbs can create wheelspin in the wet and you generally stay off them.
That said, at Silverstone i was all over them and the car wore it. My point is that i don't want
us to go too far with grip reduction because i'm having enough trouble with kerbs and
grass already! And this first edition of wet weather is extremely realistic
Furthermore i did some dry testing in the Formula C at Laguna
r15
The R15 seems to pick up where we left off with the stable R14n compound that worked
previously. It has much more composure than the other tyres on corner exit and is well
balanced in all areas with: good braking grip and stopping power (possibly too much grip
at first as it's hard to lock a tyre on the first hit of the brake), the entry is stable and exiting is
smooth.
If anything it just feels a bit un-eventful on corner entry and having driven the M3 - i wish it
had the same initial on power characteristic so you could hustle the car a bit more on the
throttle. I really feel thats where this car needs to go
I tried running max front wing and it was terrifying me so i back down to 14 - basically i
couldn't create the same feeling as the M3 using the set up. Over to brighter folks than me!
R16
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The R16 demonstrates the nasty snap oversteer on corner exit, and occasionally on turn in
and entry to the corner after heavy braking. It is far less predictable to drive than the 15 so i
felt this was not the right direction.
Summary
Something between R15 and the BMW M3 GT3 tyre could unlock the FC completely and
make it really exciting to drive. I feel we are really close
Back to the rain though - this is major development and you should be extremely proud!
People will buy Project Cars for no other reason than to feel what it's like to handle a racing
car in the wet and experience aquaplane at 160mph, and it's a rush. Will be watching this
space very closely!
Casey Ringley:
Great test of the rain tires, Ben! Very useful data. So the soft slick feels generally too safe
and good to you even in the the rainy condition, yes? I tend to agree. It's going to be an
interesting job trying to shift things so they are more affected by the wet surface while
keeping what is working on the dedicated rain tire. Wear is turned on, btw. Those wets will
burn up within about 10 laps run in the dry and you'll really start to notice a grip falloff.
Ben Collins:
Thanks Casey that's great to know. In most cases you'll probably hear me asking for more
grip and stability but on slicks in the rain you won't! Happy to take a beating and slip all
over the place in that set of circumstances.
Ten laps sounds like about right, certainly no more than that i think a fully soft wet would
peel apart on a drying track in about that time or even less but a harder 'drying wet' could
push to ten. I ran them for the first time at Silverstone and they were seriously impressive.
Great job on the rain, its a lot of fun!
Ben Collins:
Build 730
Formula C
Laguna, Besos, Imola
Following a nudge from AJ i've just re-tested the R16 and R15 tyres back to back using
lower engine power to see how this felt
I'm stuck to my previous comments even with the lighter horsepower
The R16 develops major wheelspin when exiting a third gear corner and this isn't possible in
a real car so i find myself facing backwards too often when i try to drive it naturally. On the
other hand the R15 masks what are fundamentally similar characteristics by layering on
more grip - but i still prefer it because i can attack the corners.
How do we reduce grip without compromising stability? It seemed to be an impossible
question, except that we had this in previous models of the 98T (which feels a long time
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ago now) but also very recently in the BMW M3 GT3 - which many of you are saying is your
favourite car on the sim right now, mine too.
The M3 turns the car on the first touch of throttle, and that is the secret ingredient that all
'games' lack. It's almost impossible to replicate the tiny transition that you get from being
off power in an understeering state, to on power going through the diff balances the car
and it takes a set. The M3 GT3 has it and i would love to see that appear on the FC
because it is very driveable.
Back to the R16 tyre
The car too much understeer in medium to high speed corners, but during turn in at lower
speed it pivots too much and / or bites too much at the rear when you go for the power and there's no warning as to when it might come. The car essentially feels incredibly stiff,
like it's on a knife edge. It should be easier to drive than this and though i hate to sound like
a broken record, it should have a lot more grip when it's sliding. You can slide an F3 car all
day long without spinning because the grip drop off as you surpass the peak slip angle isn't
as bad as you might think.
The positive traits that the 98T used to have were: the squirming rear axle under heavy
braking prior to turn in but without spinning, the sense of body roll, and a general liveliness
across the rear axle that gave you the feeling of connection. Again the M3 seems to have
some of the last two plus this amazing on power rotation
I hope this is helpful and we'll crack this nut for sure as the tools exist to do it !
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope everyone is good.
Sorry for the delay on this weeks blog, I have been busy arranging the tools needed for me
to give you guys a different type of blog. Hopefully you guys will like it and learn some
things from it. I hope that the way I am planning to create this blog will make it easier for AJ
and Casey to digest and get more in-depth detail from it.
I will be working on my blog delivery idea tomorrow so I will have it all done and posted
tomorrow.
Thanks guys.
Nic J
Andrew Weber:
Looking forward to it. J
When you get hold of R17, report unnatural jumps if you get them, but don't worry too
much about them. It is a known issue but is not fixed on R17. It is actually a model issue, so
technically any tire might do it right now. It will be fixed soon. We know the problem.
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Not noticing any un-natural jumps with the R17 at the moment, car feels nice, the rear has
improved and feels like it is one step more stable and predictable compared to R16. I have
all of my thoughts on the new tyre coming up, I just don't want to post anything until I have
it all perfect.
Im hoping that my blog won't be an anti-climax, as I have made it sound very exiting, but it
is a new idea I want to try!
Stay tuned!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey Guys,
So here we go!
I went out and bought a GoPro to change my blogging up a little.
Mode: Time Trial
Circuit: Besos GP
Build: 736
It has taken quite a while, as I did not know it would of taken 5 hours to upload onto
YouTube!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdu60t0xbUU
My idea with this video/style of delivering my blog was to give you guys an insight into how
I drive and what I take into account. The main aim was to give AJ and you all more in
depth detail about what I am experiencing with the car by being able to see how I drive
etc. This was the first time I have ever done anything like this, so it is not perfect and I mess
my words up a little.
It is just an experiment to see what AJ and Casey prefer in terms of Blog delivery, whether it
is by on-board video, or a written blog, maybe a mixture of both.
In the video, you will see that I spin, this I feel is down to a lack of traction on the outside of
the rear tyre, but is not too much of an issue and maybe can be improved by creating
more grip, giving a more lazy snap/twitch, as because the tyres are at optimum, traction
should be at a better level when the outside of the rear tyre is used and should not be too
aggressive.
Please give me your thoughts and feelings on the video, the more I do recordings, the
better I will get at it, and if all goes to plan, my feedback should be more detailed and
easier to follow.
See what you think.
P.S I have not yet gone into detail about the Cold tyre phase, this can be added in
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another video if you guys decide you like it.
Thanks,
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks. That is really cool. With this I get two extra really valuable things. A) I hear a sort of
"weighting" to issues based on how you say things, via extra words and voice and B) I see
what your hands are doing and how things are reacting to your style.
The only things I'd add to make this format perfect are A) use the telemetry HUD screen, in
particular so I can see your pedal inputs too and B) a small summary paragraph with key
words in it so I can search easier later to find a particular video.
WRT to the tire itself, sounds like we are close enough where maybe I should start the FB
fork and have the last few FC refinements go on in parallel. My main concern is I am
actually not sure how to get the braking to loosen up without loosening up the exits with
lock, just in the tire. That might have to be default setup work. Everything I typically do in
the tires is going to move those together. Well, I do know one way in the tire (some carcass
construction stuff), but so many other things are going to shift with that, that I think I would
rather try to fine tune that particular last bit with setup.
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JUNE 2014
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is just a quick overview of a few tyres. I will carry this blog on tomorrow, with
more feedback on cars such as, the Renault Clio Cup Car and the Zonda R, but as Casey
has been waiting so long, I just wanted to give you guys some thoughts on what I have
been testing so far.
Build: 741
LMP2 - Soft Slick
Circuit: Belgian Forest
Oreca 03 LMP2
So this car I feel is at a very decent level, the car is really nice to drive and is very
consistent. With the Soft Slick tyre, the car is very easy to over drive, as it feels that you have
to be quite aggressive on the front to get some decent entry and mid-corner bite through
medium speed corners, which I feel would improve the car if this were to be increased
slightly. There is not much I would change with the tyres/balance of this car, other than a
bit more slow speed exit traction, as at the moment, there is a horrible snap when applying
throttle, which is a little too unstable for this type of car.
There is not much work left on this car, it is for sure one of/maybe my favourite car to drive
on Pcars. The addition of increased slow speed traction will for sure make a big difference
in my eyes. Brake balance I feel is very important with this car, which adds another realistic
characteristic to the car, as it comes down to who can set the car up the best.
Other areas of improvement I feel are, more accurate engine sounds, as I feel we can get
closer to the on-board video HERE and a change in driver animation when shifting gears,
as at the moment the driver is acting like he is using a sequential box, rather than paddleshift. As you can see, not much to comment on, as the car is very good and great to drive,
just fine adjustments needed that will make a big difference.
LMP1 – Soft Slick
Circuit: Besos GP
RWD P30 LMP1
Ok so this car I feel is a little too edgy, the power delivery from initial throttle application
feels a little odd/delayed. With this car, it seems to have the same traction characteristics
as the LMP2 tyre, but this tyre seems to affect the car in high and medium speed corners
instead of slow speed. The behaviour of the tyres at the rear of the car sort of remind me of
how the FC use to be, with a lot of instability under power when the outside of the rear tyre
is under load when applying throttle. Mid-corner to exit of ‘Turn 4’ at Besos GP is a good
example, with a lot of wheel spin where the rear wants to snap in 3rd gear, which gives you
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no confidence in the rear of the car at all. At the exit of slow speed, I think the car/ tyres
are good with a decent amount of traction with no movements. Braking is very similar with
this car compared to LMP2, with it being very easy to lock the rear wheels and makes
brake balance very important.
At the moment, I feel that under braking, the unsettling of the car when the rears lock is a
little too aggressive, as this makes the rear ‘snatch’, but with the low speed stability of the
rear tyres holding the rear in place, means that you can get away with locking the rears up
under braking to get the rear to rotate to minimise understeer. This to me feels that the way
the brake balance affects the rear of the car; means that you start to develop an
unrealistic driving style for this type of car. The easiest way I can explain it is that, it feels
pretty much like a ‘go-kart’ under braking, with the rears locking up and rotating the rear.
The LMP1 tyres on this car I feel makes the balance feel quite unpredictable, with not
much stability through high-speed when the rear tyres are under lateral load. This can be
dialled out/improved with setup changes, but improving rear stability makes the front of
the car feel very lazy, with increased high speed understeer together with oversteer snaps
through high speed and medium speed, which does not make you feel completely
comfortable when on the limit.
Overall, I like this car, the engine sounds are great and the general balance of the car is at
a decent level. I feel we need to increase the rear grip when under power and when
under lateral load, which will give more rear stability during mid-corner/exit of medium
speed corners as well as high-speed corners. In terms of braking, what I am experiencing
can be adjusted with brake balance and brake pressure, but my point is that it does not
stop the unrealistic driving style that you start to develop to drive the car.
GT3 – Slick Soft
Circuit: Besos GP
BMW M3 GT
This car is my favourite at the moment; the balance is fantastic with the car giving you a lot
of satisfaction when at the limit. The updated GT3 tyre feels a lot more realistic to me, I
think it has taken a step forward in realism and now feels more like a proper slick tyre than
previous. What I noticed with this tyre is that, the front entry bite is very well balanced
where there is no unrealistic sharpness/ aggression, which turns the car, but instead there is
a slight feeling of laziness on initial input that does not affect the overall entry bite. This then
keeps the whole car balanced on entry and is down to the driver to minimise car
movements, which if pre-empted can work in your favour.
The overall balance of the car is very impressive, as the car feels free as it starts to move
under power and under braking, but has enough grip transition for controlling slides and
movements. So far, I feel this car is the most realistic car at the limit, as it is not as edgy as
some other cars are currently, with great predictability, which gives you a lot of confidence
throughout the lap. In terms of overall balance and tyre performance, I have no concerns,
if I was being really picky, I would slightly increase rear lateral traction a very small amount.
Either way, I believe we have created a great tyre.
GT4 Slick - Soft
Circuit: Besos GP
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BMW M3 GTS GT4
So this car is a bit different in comparison to the M3 GT, so it took a couple of laps to get
into it. The general balance of the car feels very similar to the GT3 tyre and how the M3 GT
felt. The car feels very free and is always moving under power, which feels good. The front
tyres feel just as strong as the GT3 tyres, with good initial entry bite that does not feel
snappy and feels more realistic, which requires more thought and makes the car easier to
place and control. With the car feeling free, it is both a good characteristic but I feel it
could be improved slightly with not enough lateral traction/ stability. The car is very
balanced on entry and you can get it to behave how you want at mid corner, but at exit,
there is a tendency of wheel spin in 3rd gear that creates a snap when the outside of the
rear tyre is under load. As well as the wheel spin, there is a little too much instability at the
rear in general, even with the rear set to be stable, but is still controllable and predictable
during slides.
Overall, this tyre is also very strong, it is feels like the same quality as the GT3 tyre in regards
to general behaviour. In terms of improvements, I feel there needs to be more rear stability
through medium and high speed corners to stop rear floatation, as well as increased
lateral traction. Both of these improvements I feel are minor and should only be increased/
adjusted slightly, as we do not want to take the characteristic of the car away and create
something unrealistic. With the current direction of all of the cars I have driven in this post,
we have really come a long way and it has been a pleasure to see Pcars grow from
strength to strength. As I said, I will carry this post in tomorrow with more feedback, but until
then, keep pushing!
Thanks guys
Nic
Casey Ringley:
Great notes, Nic. This definitely helps push me in the right direction for the next revision. Tiny
steps now, which is nice! Looking forward to the rest of your report.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so continuing from last Friday’s post, I am going through some more tyres today and will
be covering the Zonda R Slick and the Renault Clio Cup first pass, which I tested on the TC
Slick Tyres.
Build: 742
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Time Trial
Zonda – R
Zonda R Slick
Ok, so to be completely honest, this tyre needs some more work and feels like it is quite a
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bit behind the performance and feelings of the other tyres, which I tested last week. The
issues I am experiencing with this car I feel is purely based on tyre performance, as the setup and balance of the car is at a pretty good level, it is just the tyres that are letting the
overall performance and balance down. The issue in a ‘nutshell’ is that the tyres are just
not producing enough overall grip, where it feels like you are driving in the wet. The reason
I feel like you are driving in the wet is down to a number of different characteristics, which
make you drive the car in a certain way, which to me mimics driving in wet conditions.
Stopping power I feel is quite weak, with not a lot of bite/grip under braking, which does
not give you the same feeling of the brakes suddenly pulling the speed out of the car/
slowing the car down compared to the feeling of other cars and is not what you would
expect from the brakes on this type of car. As braking power is at quite a low level, it
means that you have to brake a lot earlier than expected with the car feeling lazy during
the braking zone, which does not give you the confidence to push in comparison other
cars and instead means that you have to be a little more couscous, with the limit of the
brakes and grip level under braking being quite unpredictable.
After the braking phase has finished and the car is ready for entry, there is a quite low
amount of front entry bite, with a lot of understeer from entry to mid-corner, which means
have you to stop the car more than usual to get the front to hook up. Once the front has
been placed where you want it, picking up the throttle is how you would expect, with
modulation and control needed, but when loading the rear tyres through a corner with
some throttle being applied, there is a lot of instability and wheel-spin with the rear tyres
not holding the car properly. It feels like the same issue the FC use to have, as well as the
small issue that the LMP2 tyre has with the rear lateral stability and traction being too low,
but I think this car is a little worse in this regard.
To put it simply, there is not enough bite/grip and stopping power under braking, initial
entry bite as well as mid-corner hold/grip is too low, with high-speed entry bite and midcorner hold being too low as well, and rear lateral stability under power/traction needs to
be increased. All of these small issues combined, to me make you adopt a driving style
that you would use in the wet, as grip is minimal and the car feels quite lazy and snaps on
power with lateral instability. Rear stability when ‘off power’ I feel is good, it is just ‘on
power’ that is too unstable with the front being too lazy both on and off power.
Renault Clio Cup
TC Slick
Ok so this car is very unique in real life, there is a lot for a driver to take into account when
both preparing the car (heating tyres etc.) and when pushing the car to the limit. From my
experience in the Clio Cup, the less aggressive you are and the more relaxed you are, the
faster you are. In this first test, I have not planned to really look at the performance of the
TC Slick, but instead to just look at the overall balance and feeling of the car. My main
priority is to get the chassis behaviour correct before we go onto tyre performance and
characteristics.
So firstly, I feel the car is too soft straight away, it feels very ‘bouncy’ and very grippy on the
rear, with not a lot of front bite or rear rotation on entry. At the moment, you can get away
with pretty much anything and can drive the car like a ‘hooligan’ and still find yourself on
the racing line. You have no worries at all and the car just does everything you want it to.
Having a car that does everything you want it to is obviously good, but this is in an
unrealistic manner. The main characteristics which I feel are most unrealistic is the lack of
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rear rotation on entry with a lot of lift-off oversteer when provoked, which is followed by a
crazy amount of grip on the rear, which makes it all controllable. You may be reading this
and thinking ‘Hang on, is this not a good thing? A car that has lots of grip on the rear,
which makes slides/moments and movements easy to control’, well yes, but in a Clio you
would not ‘always’ get away with or be able to control the high level of lift-off oversteer
and snap without spinning or losing time, so in this regard, we have too much grip.
To drive this car at the moment, you turn in with very minimal front entry bite, as there is not
much rear rotation initially, with more throttle application and a lift to cause oversteer to
get the rear to rotate and the front into the apex, with the lift-off technique being
increased if you make a mistake and want to get the car to turn, knowing that the rear will
grip-up and save you.
In real life, on entry, the rear always wants to rotate at all 3 variations of corner speeds.
(Low, Medium, High), it is how you have the car set up, which determines how much it
wants to rotate initially. The initial rotation minimises under with the fronts giving good entry
bite/grip. Once entry is over and you begin to get to mid-corner, you then rely on the grip
of the rear tyres to hold the car when under load, where you can feel a hop as you reach
the outside/limit of the tyre whilst cornering. It is very rare for you to have to lift at the
middle of a corner to get the rear to rotate to help with your lap, it is usually when you
make a mistake of getting on power too early, where you have to lift before you run out of
road on the exit,*Watch Video* To get the rear to rotate more on entry, trail braking and
applying a small amount of steering lock is used more than lifting out of the throttle to
create rotation.
Through slow speed corners/ Hairpins, it is all about braking all the way into the apex of the
corner and having a small amount of brake pressure applied as you turn in, as with Clio’s,
slow speed is all about ‘Stopping it on its nose and then firing it out of the corner’, so the
little ‘trail brake’ keeps the rear under control but helps it rotate and stops the car on it’s
nose to maximise exit. *Watch Video* Trail braking is very unique in Clio’s, as if you do it
wrong, the car will snap into oversteer.
At the moment, I would stiffen the chassis up quite a lot, with more natural rotation on entry
and decrease the affect off lift-off oversteer a tiny bit, as this is too aggressive, the
behaviour of the car when lift-off oversteer is happening is correct, but the throttle affect
when lifting out is too aggressive. Stiffening the car up will make kerb characteristics more
realistic also, as the car absorbs the bumps and kerbs too much. Less grip is needed from
the rear tyres to allow the rear to rotate more on entry and mid corner, but to still have the
grip-up feeling when at the limit of the rear tyre. More grip from the front tyres on power is
needed, with more grip on entry with increased bite and more hold/grip at mid corner as
at the moment, there is a lot of understeer and tyre scrub on power. Too put it very simply,
the rear is too safe, the car is too soft, the front-end is too weak with too much understeer
and push and lift-off oversteer is too aggressive but has the correct characteristics.
Both of these videos below are in the old Clio Car, but the characteristic and behaviour
when having to use these types of techniques are the same in the new car.
This video helps explain the point I was making about lifting at exit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J8THnpHcqY
Notice when I get off the brake and turn in, there is a little bit of understeer initially, but then
the rear starts to rotate without me having to provoke it. I then get on the power too early
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and have to lift out at the exit. Watch how the lift does not cause any snap or rotation.
This video helps explain what I mean about braking all the way into the apex, stopping it
on its nose and then firing it out. I was using new tyres in this video, so you can hear the
tyres really working and using the new rubber to slow the car down on the front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFqmKJsxeCU
Notice how I can brake late and deep into the apex, the rear is under control, the car then
rotates at the apex, which allows me to plant my foot on the throttle to maximise exit.
Overall, a great first pass, lets start by trying to make them changes so that you are
punished more for a certain style of driving/over-driving to where the car reacts more
realistic. Once we have made the changes and the behaviour of the car is realistic, I will
go into tyre preparation and performance, as this is very important in FWD cars and
requires a certain technique to get the tyres where you want them.
Hope this helps!
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
So I just had Vijay Mallya, the owner of Force India in my race seat testing out Pcars! He
loves it and said he wants a copy IMMIDEATLY! He played the game for about 40 mins and
loved it. He is going to buy a race seat and all he needs to play the game at home haha.
I explained my work on the game, what we at SMS and WMD do and he was very
impressed and was laughing all the way through his experience on the game.
Just thought I would tell you guys J
Casey Ringley:
Excellent test. Feelings on the Zonda are interesting. It is essentially using a direct copy of
the GT3 tires right now and from what you say it would seem that the fundamentals of the
car (power/weight, tire sizes) are just too different for that carcass to work here. Will be
spending some more time on that one soon and will probably diverge the tires from their
GT3 origin by some way.
Lovely detail on the Clio too. I don't suppose you could get your hands on an old setup
sheet or damper force trace for us to reference? Will be checking with Renault as well, but
you guys who drive the cars are always much quicker to respond. :D Anyway, that gives
me some very good cues on what to change in the next revision. It actually sounds like we
need to move back toward something I had WIP here but eventually moved away from
for this first version as it felt like the oversteer was too sudden and required you to be too
smooth with inputs. You'll be first to know as soon as the next revision goes in
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Ben Collins:
A big Hello to Team WMD from Le Mans!
Firstly this is an apology for being out of touch for the last couple of weeks. If you can
picture a man locked inside a cabin with no food, hairy teeth and a thousand yard stare
then you saw me working towards a book deadline whilst training for Le Mans..
I will be back in the Sim and guns blazing next week as soon as i've hammered out 24 hours
as fast as i can aboard the Krohn Racing Ferrari 458 GT - if any of you are out here this
weekend please stop by and say hi.!
The Sim is making a break from cover and it's great to see how far we've come and how
realistic the features are. Once i'm back in the saddle i will be sure to hotseat as much of
the range as i can, address key issues and new devs highlighted by Casey and AJ, and
tune some finer points on the Le Mans circuit because i noticed some minor changes here.
One feature of the track that changed for the test day, and was subsequently removed for
the race, was the vertical take off and landing facility that the officials installed at the Ford
Chicane.
Clearly the ACO felt that driver cutting corners deserved to be taught a lesson, and on
noticing the ramps used on Aircraft Carriers to send jet fighters into orbit – they decided to
introduce some. Here is the result:
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/leman...mans-test-day/
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That’s some pretty impressive air.
Apart from being quite funny, it’s a good reminder regarding off track excursions. The really
wild rides are usually an oddball feature of certain tracks, like freshly painted kerbs causing
a problem in the wet, or astro turf on the exit of corners causing more wheelspin than ice.
We have flirted around the edges of what I have felt to be unrealistic off track penalties
when usually they are not anything like so aggressive.
So whilst I’m abroad and no use to WMD whatsoever, beyond flying the flag, I thought I
would re-iterate that point as we get closer to the end game. A place that works right now
is the slow chicane at Imola where the high kerbs discourage excessive use. That’s perfect.
Beyond that I would love to be able to take to drop a wheel onto the grass occasionally,
get some light bumping and wheelspin but not receive a time penalty. I would prefer
anything but a time penalty, and bumps that knock rpm and cost straightline speed are a
perfect cattle prod for people like me.
Have a great week and please keep in touch if you make it out this way
Green is the new white by the way – my new race suit makes me look like Kermit the frog.
Ben Collins:
Just about recovered from the Le Mans 24 hours - still a little saddle sore but the less it's
described the better i think
I've never seen such a wild approach to racing as the GT class during testing - the ACO
(the organisers) had installed a load of new high kerbs and with no exaggeration the
difference in lap time between avoiding the kerbs and smashing the car to pieces by
running over them was about 4 seconds a lap.
We opted to take the middle ground and get to the finish, narrowly missing the podium
after a minor gearbox issue. As this is a pet topic of mine i took the liberty of taking photos
of the Le Mans kerbs at the final ford chicane and also the 'dug-outs' that they have
installed at the exit of Porsche curves and the exit of Tetre Rouge. These are a little bumpy
but dont upset the car, whereas the big kerbs put you in the air. Interestingly, there were
no penalties for running ALL FOUR WHEELS over the white lines. I hope we take the same
direction by not receiving penalties for shaving the occasional apex
Have a great weekend!! Oh and thank you for sending me a Kermit the Frog toy - it was
greatly appreciated and he is now flying around in a private jet with the team owner!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is based on Build 747 and will cover the comparison between the R17 and
R18 tyres that are available for the Formula C.
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Time Trial
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So as you guys saw, I covered the R17 tyre with the video I did using my GoPro a couple of
weeks ago. With this test, I did not feel a report on the R17 tyre again was necessary, but I
had to drive the 2 tyres back-to-back to get a clear understanding of the changes, so
what I am going to do is write about the R18 tyre, and then add points which will outline
the comparison to R17.
R18
Ok, so having read some other peoples comments on this tyre, stating that it may be a
step backwards, personally for me I do not see it as a step backwards, but instead see this
tyre as an ‘eye opener’ meaning that the new characteristics of this tyre has given me
more details/characteristics, which has given me more direction in what I feel we need to
do with this tyre as this tyre I feel is not any better than R17, but has characteristics which
are better and if we can add in the characteristics form R18 to R17, then this will bring us
closer to where we need to be.
My first thoughts of this tyre was that the front tyres were very lazy and caused a lot of
understeer in comparison to R17, where the front tyres created great entry grip, which
allowed you to carry more entry and mid-corner speed due to the grip available. I felt that
with the R18 tyre, the effects of downforce were a lot lower with the feeling of the car
being pushed into the ground and pulling the car through the corner, feeling quite a bit
less in comparison to R17, meaning that high-speed grip/ downforce is a lot less, meaning
you have to apply more steering lock and make the front tyres work harder. I found myself
having to lift out of the throttle for a corner that is taken ‘Flat’ with R17 to get the front to
turn in, which comes down to less downforce and high-speed grip. Please note that I am
sure that the downforce levels on the car are the same as previous, it seems that the
changes in the rear tyres of R18 has tightened up the rear and weakened the grip on the
front, which to me makes the car feel like it has less downforce.
General balance wise, the R18 tyre feels very solid, as I said earlier, there seems to be quite
a bit of understeer and laziness from the front tyres, which makes the overall feeling of the
car feel slower. Having said this, even though front entry bite is less in comparison to R17,
there is still a feeling of the downforce working and turning the front of the car, which is
nice. In terms of rear balance, I feel that there is no issue in terms of stability, as rear
downforce feels near enough the same. Lateral stability on power with the R18 tyre has
been increased a great deal, which gives more stability and traction when the outside of
the rear tyre is under load, which also breaks traction when power is applied too soon,
which is a good characteristic to have. Under braking, the car feels near enough the same
in comparison to R17, but has a tiny bit less stability at the end of the braking phase, which
is a small improvement.
To me it seems that we have found ourselves in a bit of a situation, where we have
improved the rear stability under lateral load as well as traction, but have lost the entry bite
and aggression that the front tyres of the R17 tyres have. It seems that to give some more
rear stability and lateral traction, AJ has had to tighten the rear of the car, which has then
taken the positivity away from the front.
In terms of improvements and where I feel we need to go with these tyres is very
interesting, because with R17 I feel that there is not enough traction and lateral stability,
but I enjoy the fact that the whole car is moving at all times, which requires driver skill, with
great initial entry turn-in and a great feeling of downforce and aggression. Having said this,
the lack of rear stability and lateral traction makes the car less consistent and sort of gives
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you the traction levels at mid-corner of medium speed and exit of slow speed corners that
you would expect in the wet, which makes R18 a lot more realistic for dry conditions, where
there is more stability and traction together with increased heating, which allows you to
push and stay at the limit for longer, but then feels very lazy on initial turn in and does not
have the same aggression as R17, which makes the overall performance of the car slower.
Having said this, overall, I feel we need to merge both tyre revisions together if possible,
where we have the front bite and aggression of the R17 together with the rear stability and
consistency of R18. If, to get the front bite and aggression of R17 means that we need to
decrease the rear stability of R18, then I feel we may be able to get away with decreasing
by one step, so that there is less rear stability and lateral traction than R18, but still a bit
more than R17. I basically mean that if we have to sacrifice rear stability to get better front
bite, then we should, but we need to make sure we have more rear stability and lateral
traction than R17.
As you can see, this is now becoming a situation where, as we are so close with this
car/tyre, fine adjustments can put us a step backwards in other areas of the car. In this
case, we have taken a step backwards in behaviour and performance of the front tyres,
but have made a good step forwards in rear stability, it is now about maybe having to find
a ‘middle ground’ for both.
Good work AJ, hope this helps.
Nic
Andrew Weber:
To put it simply, since R18 is a few straightforward changes from R17, and they are the
same fundamental base, I think we simply do a tire exactly in between. I'll apply 50% of the
change from R17 to R18, call it R19, and release it. Should not take long.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey Guys,
Ok so this post is written from Portugal, it is based on Build 752 and will cover the Formula B
and the FB-R3 and the CR2 Tyres that are available for it.
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Time Trial
Ok so firstly, before I comment on the tyres and balance of the car, the first point of
concern/improvement is the engine sounds when shifting through the gears, with the gear
ratios being correct, but the sounds to me sound ‘off’ with the engine sounding very dull
and flat when upshifting with no sound of ‘auto-blip’ during downshifting. Gear sounds
when upshifting sound like you are ‘clutch slipping’, with the revs increasing after the next
gear has been selected by the driver and before the selected gear engages. This sound,
together with the dull/flat engine sound when downshifting, makes the car feel lazy and
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depressing, as you always feel like you are in the wrong gear or the gear ratios are
incorrect.
It might sound weird to some people that I think the engine sound and accuracy of the
sound can affect the overall feeling of the car, but this is because the sound of the engine
is very important to a driver, as the sound of the engine can give vital information to the
driver such as, quality of braking, quality of corner entry and also quality of corner exit. The
sound of ‘engine braking’ can give the driver a guidance of how much speed has been
taken out of the car during the braking phase and helps the driver determine entry speed,
as well as other car behavioural attributes. I would be looking for more ‘seamless’ gearshifting sounds, with more pitch changes during upshifts and downshifts, together with
sounds of ‘auto-blip’. We already have these sort of sounds on other cars, so this is not too
much of an issue in my eyes and can be changed, but I feel that this needs to be sorted as
soon as possible, as accuracy of engine sounds is vital to car development in my eyes.
Tyres
FB-R3/ CR2
Ok, so having driven both tyres last week before I came out to Portugal, my main feeling
was that the tyres were not the main issue in the feeling of the car and instead is the
general balance/ set-up of the car that is the issue.
With both tyres, I found the overall balance very odd, as the tyres are actually producing a
good amount of grip in some respects, but then lack in other areas, that do not help the
overall balance and feeling of the car. General balance I feel is too stiff, with the car
‘three-wheeling’ a lot with the unloaded front tyre picking up/ lifting off of the ground too
much to the point where the front wheel is ‘hanging’ in the air, which takes away any
further ability to turn the car and gives off an endless feeling of understeer. Turn 5 (slow
speed) and 10 (medium speed) are prime examples with the front left wheel lifting up at
mid-corner of turn 5 and the front right wheel lifting up at mid-corner of turn 10 a lot more
than it needs to and feels quite unrealistic.
Front entry bite feels very low on entry to slow and medium speed corners, with the front
feeling too high and feels like the front tyres are raised off of the ground on turn-in.
Obviously the front wheels/ tyres are not actually lifted off of the ground all of the time, but
the lack of front entry bite and ‘floaty’ feeling of the front gives off the feeling that the front
tyres are lifted off of the ground. High-speed feels quite lazy, with turn-in power not
aggressive enough in my eyes and gives off quite a lot of understeer mid-corner. Under
braking the stopping power and grip available feels quite low, and in my eyes is too low for
this type of car for the stopping power and downforce it should have. The situation/feeling
I found with both tyres is that, as I said earlier, the overall grip that the tyres produces is at
quite a high level in terms of rear stability, but then lacks in other areas such as, front entry
bite and braking grip etc. Trail braking is a little unstable with the rear rotating and
snapping a lot, which does not give you a lot of confidence to push during braking zones,
but as the rear stability and grip is so high, this helps controlling snap movements/moments
and in some respects saves you from spinning.
Even though this sounds like a good characteristic to have, which it is, there is a feeling of
the front being pulled straight. A few months back, I remember both Ben and I
commenting on the front feeling very odd and feeling like it was being pulled straight and I
said it felt like someone was pulling the front with a piece of ‘Rope’, well this is still present
with this car and feels really odd. So to put this feeling simply, trail braking creates a snap
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with the rear rotating heavily but then is controlled/helped by the stability and grip of the
rear tyres, so the rear movement stops at a point and is then corrected by the front being
‘dragged’ straight again. Without sounding rude or disrespecting AJ or Casey, it sort of
feels like a ‘shopping trolley/ shopping cart’ where the chassis feels too ridged and stiff,
which doesn’t allow the front to turn in strong and instead pushes with the rear following
and causing initial instability and rotation and then is straightened up by the front being
pulled back straight.
Another main issue I noticed, which is very unrealistic is the inability spin ‘on purpose’ with
weaving and unrealistic steering inputs from ‘full lock left to full lock right’ in a straight line
at full throttle causing no instability at all with the front tyres just understeering/pushing and
the rear staying flat/ stable and causing no movements. The aggression of weaving in
which I was using, was very unrealistic and yet the car still reacted like it was normal and
the correct technique to use, and it made me feel that, if I am able to get away with such
unrealistic actions and the car just remaining stable and solid, then it makes the overall
development of this car harder to get to a realistic level if the foundations of the chassis is
at such a low level of realism.
Both tyres to me feel very similar; they both produce a good amount of stability, with good
rear off-power stability together with a good level of rear traction. At the moment, I feel
that the tyres are not the issue with this car as I said earlier, with them producing good
levels of grip but needing a bit of work to make the characteristics and behavioural
attributes of the tyres more realistic. I do not have a favourite tyre at the moment, because
I think that they both have their flaws, which is to be expected With the FB-R3 tyre, I noticed
a very weird mid-corner front-end bounce, where entry bite felt the same as CR2, which is
a little lazy and too low, but then gives off a bounce when off power at the apex of the
corner.
I am sure that this post is not what both AJ and Casey where expecting in terms of me not
giving a full comparison between the 2 tyres available for this car, but this is because I feel
that, as the general balance feels so weird and ‘off’ at present, the results from tyre testing
would be very ‘hit ‘n’ miss’, as you are unable to push the car to the limit, with so many
different characteristics affecting the overall balance and giving off the feeling that the
components/setup of the car are not working together, which makes putting a lap
together hard and makes tyre comparison and testing redundant at this present time.
Lastly, one minor item I noticed in the graphics of the car, were that there is a ‘gear leaver’
on the left-hand side in the cockpit (next to the drivers leg). This needs to be deleted as this
car is ran using paddle-shift and therefore there is no need for that ‘gear leaver’ to be
there.
Overall, sorry if this blog seems a little negative, but you guys should know me by now, I
speak my mind due to my passion for this game and want it to be as perfect as possible.
Some of you may disagree in what I have commented on above, but the way I see it is
that, the general balance of the car is the main issue, with the tyres being at a good base
foundation level, which means that I would like to focus of improving the general balance
and physics of the car before we go into developing the tyres. Once the general balance
has been improved, the tyres will not be too much of an issue to sort, as we are becoming
pretty good at this now. J
Hope this helps, see you guys when I get back tomorrow, my next blog will be based on
the Formula C and will cover the new R19 tyre.
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Keep pushing guys!
Nic J
Me writing this blog in Portugal :D
Andrew Weber:
On the contrary. This is exactly what I'd want from a first pass. If the chassis/setup needs
work first, then that is what we'll do. I guess we lucked into having two recent-tech quite
different tires approach-wise available, since that pretty much makes it clear that the
chassis needs to go first.
edit: BTW, without looking at anything yet, just your comments, I'd say the diff is probably
pretty far off, in addition to the suspension being maybe too stiff overall.
Casey Ringley:
Indeedio, we like the negative constructive feedback as much as the positive. We've
picked out a few items in the setup that could do with some changes and wider ranges to
address the things you find off with the car. I gave it a quick test with one approach
(actually going much stiffer with the springs, plus other stuff) and feel it's much better in the
areas you mention. AJ is going to take it on later and work up a new default set for the car.
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Ben Collins:
Project Cars Feedback June 26 - LE MANS, GT3, FORMULA A, FORMULA B, MCLAREN F1
Le Mans
Superb news that PCARS has landed the Le Mans 24 Hours license and I’m loving the track.
Having just spent 9 hours (3 x triple stints) behind the wheel of the Ferrari 458 GT2 at Le
Mans, I felt very dialed when I set forth in the GT3 car on the PCARS version of Le Mans. I
have to say I’m deeply impressed.
The Sim captures Le Mans superbly and the rhythm of the circuit is bang on. The track is so
fresh in my memory that I felt it was worth downloading every nuance, so bear with me
before I get onto my feedback of the new GT3 Tyres, the Formula A and Formula B, and
the McLaren F1.. !
Le Mans 24 Circuit
Pit Straight – into Turn 1
The straight is quite a busy affair at Le Mans and depending on how your car is handling,
you may or may not want to put all four wheels over the white line to the left of the track
before turning right for the kink into the braking area for Dunlop Chicane.
Currently our gravel is a fraction too close for comfort on the left side.
In a GT car you have to lift just before the apex of the right hander to steady the bus
before hammering the brakes – and the Sim mirrors this PERFECTLY.
Dunlop Chicane
Note the new red ‘baguettes’ that have been installed at Le Mans – they make both
apexes a bit more bumpy than what we currently have.
Dunlop and through the Esses are perfect and exactly as I remember. You have to turn
early and blind otherwise the car will understeer down the hill towards the Esses
Tetre Rouge – this is also bang on and the kerbs etc are spot on. The only thing I notice that
the car reacts to is a big bump as the car joins the straight, and it spun me on one lap. A
low slung prototype might feel this but it would never lose stability over it (*more on that
below) so it certainly would not affect traction in a GT car, and I don’t notice this bump in
RL
The Mulsanne Chicanes lack the clear 300, 200, 100 braking boards and we really need
these please.
Mulsanne corner is great – but the tarmac is too slippery there. I can carry more speed into
the apex there in RL because the surface is quite grippy. The apex kerb is mapped
perfectly, but the exit kerb you can run and then it drops by about 6 inches onto the deck.
Its quite violent but the car is straight and it takes it no problem.
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Indianapolis – the approach feels great, I just sense that after you turn right the track is a
touch too narrow?
Arnage is great
Porsche Curves – really superb. One additional detail you might exaggerate is in the
braking area for the first right hander. There’s rubber marking and build up and the track
surface and it’s a really helpful braking marker, one that you really notice. Also the racing
line is crucial in that right hander and the difference in grip between on line and off line is
significant. I felt that perhaps we should have a little more uplift in grip in the tight line on
the right side of the track through there.
After that the curves are perfect and edgy just like RL. Loving it.
I posted some photos to update you on the Ford chicane which has the re ‘baguettes’ on
the high speed entry, followed by the ridiculous red blobs on the tighter part of the
chicane than you can kiss, or potentially run the whole thing but you will catch some air.
We currently don’t have these in the Sim.
The Le Mans circuit on Project Cars really is a thing of beauty and I hope you all enjoy it as
much as I do.
Now onto the cars.
BMW Z4 gt3 – ‘Default tyre’ – Le Mans
My approach here is to fault find, so please excuse the negativity but overall the car has a
lot of potential.
The main fault for me is that there’s not enough lateral support when the car loses traction.
This manifests itself in several ways.
Handling
On turn in it’s very easy to spin the car because if you exceed the grip threshold, the grip
level falls off a cliff – I noticed this in particular at Mulsanne corner and on entry into the
chicanes. We really need some more middle ground so that the doesn’t go immediately
from gripping, to sliding across ice and into a spin.
On traction out of corners, it also feels too greasy at the rear end on power, and too light
on grip when the car slides.
Under braking and steering I also noticed this lack of lateral support - particularly at
Indianapolis when you have to combine some braking with turning.
I moved the brake bias from 66 to 71 PerCent front brake – this helped the issue at
Indianapolis and kept the rear end in check, but that’s not to say that it cured the grip
drop-off problem, it just cured the conditions that take you to oversteer.
In an attempt to control corner entry stability I altered the diff settings from 35 PC braking
diff lock to 70 PC diff – it didn't help it at all.
Braking is fantastic and the feedback is amazing. Feeling the lock ups gradually as a factor
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of loss of steering is really good and I’m loving that.
KERBS: Car lurches around too much over apex kerbs at ford chicane, it seems to overly
pull at the car’s direction and destabilize the rig. Im also enjoying the freedom to attack
kerbs without being penalised with time penalties although perhaps we should not allow
full on straight-lining of things like chicanes.. Ahem
Soft tyre
It felt instantly better and more controllable but then I hit the bump on the exit from tetre
rouge onto Mulsanne and it pitched the car sideways - basically the loss of grip was very
abrupt in the same style as the default. So the higher grip level masks this inherent issue of
losing too much grip when the car breaks traction.
It had the same turn in oversteer issue but traction and drive out off the corners felt easier.
But overall I believe the soft and default tyres are quite similar in nature.
Mercedes GT3
I couldn't see through the windscreen! It look misted up for some reason and I literally
couldn’t see where I was going – this effect was over the top and I had to abort my run.
However in the little running I did I really enjoyed the feel in this car and it felt very
driveable, more so than the Z4.
Formula B - Imola
Cr2 tyre
Really excellent
But there’s just a very aggressive snap oversteer on TRACTION, especially out of slow
corners but it can bite at ANY time, especially over bumps. The car has high grip but when
something upsets it, the grip goes from very high to ultra low, instantly, and unless you're
fully prepared for the onslaught it's impossible to control.
It feels so close to perfection because it's great to drive on braking and turn in (which is
vital) but the traction drop is just too punitive. I don't want to make the car lazy but I hope
there's a way to tweak the physics that will maintain the amazing vibe of driving this
energised machine so that you can catch and hold some of these slides.
Fix the traction on this tyre and we have perfection.
R3 Tyre
Instantly, I felt that there was easier traction and the rear was a bit more forgiving on drive
out of slow corners, solving my problem on the CR2 perhaps..
However, i noticed that the car wanted to spin on turn in after heavy braking so i went
forward with the bias from 62 to 69 but the problem remained - even when I released the
brakes before turning the wheel. It reminds me of the sensation on the GT3 tyre (above)
which had the same pointy turn in and was prone to spinning in the same way.
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Braking felt good with R3 and once you're actually in the corner there is some stability and
flexibility at the rear - that flexibility gives you some idea of where the limit is before you bite
the wall.
Conclusion - if you could combine the flexibility under acceleration from R3 and insert it
into CR2 then we have perfection. CR2 seems to have none of this turn in oversteer horror
but it lacks any feel at the rear under hard acceleration – is it possible to do some cross
genetics??
Formula A: using the FB Slick B - r3 tire
I can see why you used the R3 tyre because with the mega power of the F1 car you would
need max stability on acceleration.
But it's way too pointy and wayward on turn in, just too hectic and it's even harder to
control where you're placing the car than the FB. It takes me back to my impression in the
Formula B that the CR2 tyre is more predictable but just needs some help on traction to
make it more forgiving.
SUMMARY
I believe CR2 is the better tyre and that with the easier traction of R3 we would have a
great solution for the FA and the FB cars.
Mclaren F1
This car will shorten your life at the moment! It has way too much body roll and it
spins on steering, spins on brakes, spins on throttle, spins in a straight line!
I’ve spent some time in the F1 and once you get over about 130mph you start to feel a
little light on downforce, at 170mph you are basically shitting yourself but you can still
control the car and change direction, as long as you do it carefully.
The grip level is too low and there’s far too much movement which leads to some very odd
handling, so I think we need to dial this body roll back quite a long way and re-visit this
again.
Great progress all round and I hope this feedback is helpful – very curious to see what
Casey makes of mix matching the handling characteristics of the CR2 and R3 styles.
Have a great weekend!
Andrew Weber:
General cross genetics will actually be very difficult with these two tires. They are skinning
the cat in very different ways. What will more likely happen is we will each try to deal with
each tire's issues in the context of each tire. In fact, the FC lineage tires are already dealing
with the issue you cite. It is a known and identified issue with longitudinal carcass flexibility.
Try the FC R19 A/B/C/D/E series to see what I mean. That directly goes to the issue you
have with the R3. BTW, the R19 C is pretty close in that aspect (longitudinal carcass
flexibility) to the CR2, and the C happens to also be the favored tire so far in WMD testing.
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Casey Ringley:
Great detail! I'll get moving on some changes to address these issues right away. Ironically,
I think the excessive roll and handling issues in the McLaren F1 are because the tires have
too much grip. Need to try some things there to keep it feeling planted on lower grip.
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JULY 2014
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 758 and will cover the Formula C, where I will
be looking at the R19 base tyre and the R19 A-E tyres.
Ok so before I get started, I just want to say that the work rate and progress that has been
going on throughout this project is fantastic, the game is growing from strength to strength
with every build and we should all be very proud of what we are achieving
here……..but…….work still needs to be done until release, so we can celebrate later…..
drinks on me J
Formula C
Ok so, this car has made massive steps forward from the first stages of tyre development
and is really coming together, as when driving the car, you can feel everything working in
unison. During a lap, I feel that I can separate the feeling that the car gives me and
describe the behaviour and different characteristics the car gives in all sections of the
corner, for example:
Entry
Braking: Good aggression and grip, with the front tyres starting to lock at the end of the
braking zone, with some movement or snap if steering lock is applied during the braking
zone and during lock-ups.
Front-end/Downforce: As you roll off of the brakes, the initial entry bite from the front tyres
give you great initial turn-in and do not produce unrealistic grip levels, as they begin to
push under high load where you have to be patient and rely on the downforce of the front
wing to help rotate the car and point the front where you need it.
Rear–end/Downforce: Under braking, the rear goes ‘light’ a little and then begins to rotate
to help the front.
Mid-corner
Rear-end: at mid-corner, the rear goes from rotating to becoming stable and strong,
together with the stability of the rear tyres producing extra confidence and stability.
Front-end: whilst the rear of the car is beginning to sit and squat at mid corner, the front
tyres and downforce still produce good levels of grip from mid-corner to exit, with the front
tyres beginning to push at high speed, with the downforce working hard to minimise
understeer and front tyre overload.
What I am trying to say here is that, we are now at a stage where the can feel every
behavioural characteristic of the car, which is very rewarding and comes down to our
hard work.
R19
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So this tyre is yet again another improvement in comparison to R18, the biggest/most
noticeable change/improvement is the aggression and available grip from the front tyres,
which increases entry speed and makes the front of the car feel a lot less lazy. Initial entry
bite has improved a great deal together with improved mid-corner hold through mediumspeed and high-speed corners. The change to the front tyres I feel has both positives and
negatives. The positive being that front entry bite has improved a great deal, which allows
you to carry more confidence on entry where you do not have to wait as much as with the
R18.
The negative is that, as the front has become so positive in terms of entry bite and midcorner hold, the front tyres start to feel very ‘grabby’ at mid-corner. What I mean by this is
that, as the grip of the front tyres has increased, initial entry bite has improved, which
makes the rear rotate better and allows for a better turn-in, which is good, but as you get
to mid-corner, the front tyres are too grippy/ aggressive for the rear of the car, where it
feels like the front tyres are biting too much into the track surface and aggressively pulling
the car to one side, which creates a big snap and a lot of instability. The instability and
snap feels very odd, unrealistic and takes away the confidence during mid-corner. In terms
of traction, the car feels very solid and feels very similar/the same as R18, which is what I
asked for but braking to me feels a little too stable still, but is still a positive and still gives off
a nice feeling during the braking zone.
Instead of concluding on the R19 base tyre, I am going to move straight onto my R19 A-E
tyre testing, as during my testing programme, I found different variations of tyres, which are
a step towards improving the R19 base tyre and have some of the answers to my
comments about the R19 base tyre above.
R19 A-E
Ok so, AJ told me to give all of the tyres a run, decide on one and then give feedback
based on that one tyre. As I started my testing programme for these tyres, it took me quite
a while to decide which tyres I liked the most. I shortlisted tyres C,D & E, as I felt that these
tyres were the correct direction to go in compared to A&B, but I did enjoy B, as I felt that
this tyre had very good front bite, which was then complimented by decent rear stability,
which creates an improvement from the R19 base tyre.
After a long time of back to back testing with the different variants/revisions of the tyres,
although AJ has told me to comment on just one tyre alone, I have decided on 2 tyres I
like, which means that I am going to give feedback on them both.
My chosen 2 tyre revisions are C&E, but all of the tyres, other than tyre A I feel are very
decent and D is also a great tyre. The reason why I chose these two tyres is because they
both are very similar in terms of front-end, but rear stability, traction and braking stability on
both tyres are very different to each other.
R19-C
This tyre is very strong in my eyes; I do not have much criticism to say about it in terms of
general balance and basic behaviour. This tyre has great initial front bite, with less grip at
the rear compared to D&E, which makes for better medium-speed and high-speed grip
together with more realistic levels of medium-speed traction. The characteristics that let
this tyre down are ‘low-speed traction’ (Exit of hairpins) and braking stability.
In terms of low-speed traction, I feel the grip available is too low during the initial throttle
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application phase, where there is too much instability to the point where you cannot start
‘modulating’ the throttle until the car is completely straight, whereas in real life, from midcorner to exit when pushing the car to the limit, you are able to apply a small amount of
throttle towards the end of the mid-corner phase with a small amount of steering lock
applied if needed to help maximise corner exit, but at the moment, minor throttle
modulation/application causes a lot of wheel-spin and instability. In terms of realism under
braking, I feel that grip and bite is very strong, but too stable in comparison to other
revisions.
R19-E
This tyre has the same basic feeling and characteristics of tyre C, but as this tyre has more
rear stability, front entry bite and grip during the mid-corner phase is a little less. The reason
why I chose this tyre is because it feels very much the opposite of tyre C, where tyre E’s
strengths are tyre C’s weakness’. So to put it simply, tyre E has more realistic slow speed
traction and personally, the best slow speed traction out of all of the revisions. This means
you can apply throttle a lot more realistically where minor modulation and application
does not cause too much wheel-spin, which makes the initial throttle application phase
more controllable and results in stronger corner exits adding confidence when on the limit.
This tyre has more realistic/ the most realistic braking instability of all of the tyre revisions with
heavy braking being the deciding factor to where the car wants to rotate and requires
more control during front and rear lock-ups, that are not over the top (OTT) to where it
causes unrealistic snaps. We do not want the car to be so unstable to the point that it
moves and rotates on entry to every corner, but instead only moves and rotates in realistic
situations of heavy braking and/or grip variations etc. The only area in which I feel is more
unrealistic than tyre C is that this tyre has too much rear traction and stability through
medium-speed and high-speed corners where the rear stays planted at all times on throttle
and does not have any instability moments or a break of rear traction at any point.
Overall
I think that the progress with this car is great, which makes my job a lot harder to suggest
changes and improvements. My comments above are basically stating that, going
through all of these tyres, I wanted to find a tyre that had the most realistic characteristics
under braking, with rear stability and with exit traction. All of the tyres are either one step in
one direction or one step in the other direction, so I feel that creating a tyre based on the
traction stability/instability of tyre C, where the car still moves around on power, but still
requires skill and control but is still controllable, together with the slow-speed exit traction
and rear stability of tyre E with the added realistic instability of tyre E under braking is the
best direction to go. All tyres to me feel very decent, but all have their areas where one
tyre is better than the other, and so tyres C&E are the best mix in terms of driver
involvement and realism, as with tyre D and E on their own without C, the car is way too
stable, good to drive but too easy.
I hope this helps, great job everyone, lets keep pushing.
Nic J
P.S. Regarding the W tyres for the FC, I want to spend a little longer on these before I give
my thoughts on them.
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Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the great feedback.
This test is dialing a single concept, so mixing C&E is really just D, so that is not the answer by
itself. However, the FB work has revealed another way to deal with the low speed traction.
So my thinking is to go with something close to C (on the rear), maybe a touch towards the
D/E direction, and then apply the FB lesson to fix the single issue of low speed traction. The
fronts will get something between B&C to keep that bite and braking feel.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope everyone is all good!
So it was a good weekend for the Hamilton Family with Lewis winning his home race! :D
Anyway, back to Pcars. AJ and Casey, can you both give me an update on items of
which you would like me to test this week please. Im looking to hit development hard, so if
you both can let me know what you would like me to work on this week then that would
be great. Casey I know I need to work on the Clio for you, but if there is anything else,
physics wise, circuit wise etc, let me know
Also, I am working on big plans racing wise for next year, which I am very excited about. I
hope to announce it all soon if all goes to plan!
Thanks
Andrew Weber:
Last night a package of stuff went in. It looks like it will be another day before it hits the
build though.
The FC now has an R20 tire. This is the blend of test tires I already mentioned we would try
based on your feedback. As it turns out the FB-fix for traction I wanted to add on that
worked less than ideal on the narrower FC tires, so I went with a different traction fix, which
seems to have worked. The FC gets through the Besos semi-hairpin pretty well for me now,
which was the challenge.
The FB now has an R4 tire, Casey adjusted the CR2, and the default setup has been
overhauled. In my personal opinion, this change now puts the FB ahead of the FC on raw
fun factor, at Besos at least, on both tires. The CR2 is a wonderfully forgiving, yet realistic (to
me), tire, probably great for league racing in leagues with mixed talent level (a lot like the
real life Mojo tire for Rotax). The R4 is a little sharper and less forgiving, but also in a realistic
way (to me), probably better for separating drivers of close talent (a lot like the real life MG
Yellows in Rotax).
Casey Ringley:
I've got a big set of changes going in tomorrow, so it might be best if you hold off on the
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Clio until the Friday build is out (if that wasn't your plan already). Yours and Ben's latest
rounds of feedback have put me on a good path and there will be some significant
updates to the GT cars, Clio, FG1000, F.Rookie, Sauber C9, etc etc... It's turned into a pretty
big update while I wasn't watching. J Will get you guys detailed notes on it all when the
time comes.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Not sure if this has already been covered, or already being looked into, but are there any
plans on improving the graphics on the tyres? I have been running my test programme
with the FC using the R20 (which to me feels very good by the way) but as I was testing, I
had a thought that the tyres at the moment just seem like solid objects with no life in them
to where there are no characteristic changes to the tyre with regard to graphics, graining,
flat-spots etc.
Examples below
Graining
Flat-spots
With flat-spots, they create a lot of vibrations, so it would be great if we could adapt this
graphic and characteristic change of the tyres to add vibrations to the FFB of the steering
wheel.
Brake Lock-up Smoke
This is something that I have not seen yet and feel we defiantly need this fine detail added.
Tyre Pick-up/Rubber Pick-up
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Rubber Pick-up A.K.A 'Marbles' are crucial, they can affect the car in a huge way, with grip
change being a big difference in car balance. 'Marbles' cause a lot of instability both front
and rear, but also affect the overall weight of the car during and at the end of a race.
'Marbles' are already present on the track surface in Pcars if I remember correctly, but this
does not increase over time, where there should be more 'Marbles' on the track surface as
the race progresses. Adding these to tyre graphics also is very important to the fine details
of the tyres.
All of these above I feel need to be added, as I said, I am not sure if these are already in
the plans for the game, but to see graphic changes of the tyres with Flat-spots, graining
etc would be great to go along with the characteristic changes of the physics and FFB of
the wheel. Tyres are living objects when on a race track, they change all of the time, we
need to add this in for sure if possible.
I just thought I would give you guys some more ideas, you know I am all about the fine
details etc and adding all of these will make the look and realistic feeling of each car even
better, as the physics are getting to such a great level, the graphic detail need to go with
it.
Thanks
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Andrew Weber:
Graining and flat spots are already in the physics, although tuning the wear to get flat
spots naturally, while still having the heat and overall wear rates where we need them,
takes a lot of time. Right now the flat spots have taken a back seat on that tuning to
overall wear and heat. You can flat spot, but it takes a much harsher skid to do so than it
should right now.
The graining is not really tuned at all. I tried for a while but did not get much WMD
feedback. Graining needs a LOT of lapping to tune it since you have to go through the
phases that fall out. It is modeled in a basic fashion, but the emergent effect that is
"graining" goes through phases that we only see in a session with enough laps.
Pickup is not modeled yet. That one is more likely to be pCars2 for the tire model part.
As far as graphics go, I do not know what the plans are.
Nicolas Hamilton:
In that case, would you like me to look into graining with you, so you can get the feedback
you require?
Andrew Weber:
Probably, but not yet. Let's finalize FC, FB, and later FA, before we get graining dialed. We
have a ticking clock, and we need all the F's on a solid base before we dig into graining
tuning.
The model itself might be pretty simple, but since it is a "low level" model, and the graining
itself emerges, it takes a tuning. Basically, the model as-is is as the tire wears, some "worn"
rubber stays on the tire and is cleaned off as a function of scrub. When the tire is less cured
(race tires are not delivered fully cured), the tendency to ball up and the cleaning rates
are different. This is all a function of temperature and temperature gradient through the
tread as well (so in this simple model, blisters are kind of just extreme graining...not really
correct, but close enough for this revision).
So "graining" is a balance of these things, hence an emergent window in the heat cycle of
the tire.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 763 and will cover the FC and the R20 Tyres
which are available for it.
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Time Trial
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So today I have been playing around with the setup of the car a lot and have gained
further knowledge on the R20 tyre and how it reacts to different set-up changes. For the
last couple of weeks, I have used the same setup (not default) for all of the tyre revisions
when testing them, to get a direct comparison from one tyre to the next. My first thoughts
on this tyre were ‘Wow, this car is getting good’.
Whilst going through my run programme, although I felt that the car/tyres were at a really
strong level, I did feel that there were a few characteristics, which were not as prominent
as I would of liked. For example, rear traction in medium speed felt a little too high to me,
with the car being very easy to control with no break of traction or movement. That being
said, this does come down to throttle application, as just ‘planting your foot’ to the floor
does create instability and snap. Instantly, the front bite of the tyres was very positive in
comparison to the R19 base tyre and you can for sure feel the characteristics of R19-B on
the front, as now the front tyres are a lot more aggressive but still have the mid-corner
understeer, which is good.
Slow speed exit traction has improved a great deal, with the rear still punishing you/ trying
to step out if you get on power a little too early. What I like about the characteristics of the
rear tyres now, is that they seem to react to different load levels in a much more realistic
way. For example, during mid corner of slow speed, if you are experiencing oversteer,
there is not a sudden snap which creates an unrealistic spin, but instead there is more of a
‘lazy slide’ when at the limit of the tyre, which when applying power too soon at the exit
changes the characteristic of the tyre/car from a lazy movement to a violent snap if you
are too eager on the power. All of this to me gives the car a completely different feeling,
as it now feels more complex but forgiving at the same time.
As I said at the start of this post, today I decided to do some setup changes and branch
out of my usual setup. The reason behind this is because, as the tyres are now at such a
good level with the setup I had, I felt that braking instability was not very strong, as it all felt
pretty easy and medium-speed and high-speed felt a little too lazy at mid-corner. The big
difference I noticed with my changes, which were mostly ‘wing settings’ was that, the car
is very dependant on downforce, with the slightest of changes making a big difference.
Decreasing the downforce of the rear wing made a massive difference to the top seed of
the car, as you would expect with less drag, which is a good thing. As I decreased the rear
wing settings, this instantly started to cause a lot of instability, which started off being too
much initially, but after ‘trial and error’, (which is what car setup is all about) the car to me
now feels more alive, with more instability under braking, which is not too over the top
(OTT) and is controllable. The front end feels a lot more pointy compared to how it felt
before the changes, as the rear is now rotating more which causes more movements and
skill from the driver and results in squirms and movements under braking.
High-speed feels a lot more ‘on edge’ but can be calmed by setup changes. To me, the
changes to the downforce settings of the car has really shown how these tyres react, as
you begin to put them under a lot of stress and can feel them working, which allows you to
feel the limit of the tyre. As I went through adapting my setup, each little change had a big
difference and has made setup a lot more important. With the lower downforce settings,
as I said, the rear moves a lot more, with a little bit of instability on power during mediumspeed corners, but this is what I have been working on, as I now feel I have been able to
reverse the characteristics from adapting the setup to make the balance feel more
realistic in terms of car behaviour, from the rear feeling to ‘planted’ to feeling more natural.
One thing that is a bit weird to me, is that the front downforce feels great on entry and at
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mid-corner, but as you get to the exit, it feels like the front is still wanting to pull you around
the corner/offline, which makes the steering wheel feel very sensitive and overall a little bit
odd. Adapting the setup to counter-act this helps in one way, but then affects the car in
another but overall the front-end feel nice and positive.
In terms of improvements, there are a few minor issues/characteristics, which I feel are very
hard to explain, as they are very minor and hard to put into words. The first issue, was
initially pointed out BELOW in cjorgens79 first on-board video. Yesterday I commented on
this subject and said that there is not much of an issue, but after doing more runs today, I
found myself experiencing the same characteristic, with part of me feeling, ‘yes that’s
quite realistic’ and another part of me feeling, ‘that feels weird- I hardly touched the
throttle and the rear just spat me into the other direction’.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UixshC0uP8
This issue only becomes clear when recovering from a spin, as it seems that the grip
available on the rear tyres is quite low both on power and when under lateral load. What I
am trying to get at is the fact that, the overall balance and tyre performance feels very
good as they are now more complex in terms of the behaviour they give off, with the driver
being able to push them too and sometimes past the limit and still control the car, but then
there are some odd characteristics that happen, like in the video, which I have no
explanation for. Is it down to ‘dirty tyres’? Does the effects of dirty tyres affect the car, has it
been programmed to do so? If so, then we just need to change the behaviour from grass
to tarmac a little to make this issue more realistic. Astroturf and kerbs need to be increased
grip wise to make the use of kerbs etc more realistic, with the same needed with the grip
level of the grass.
The second issue/ improvement, is that today I had an experience of the ‘rope pulling’
effect on the front of the car, which felt very unnatural and was actually the first time I
have experienced it with this car. The reason for it was due to the lack of downforce (the
changes I made), which were a little too low and meant that as I turned into Turn 1, the
rear just rotated, but as I lifted off of the throttle, it felt like all four tyres gripped up laterally
and the front of the car was pulled straight. This I feel is good to find out, as it now means
that, even-though the balance and behaviour of the tyres are very good, when the setup
is not right, the car reacts in unrealistic ways, where we need the car to react in realistic
ways both when setup correctly and incorrectly.
Regarding the general balance of the car and the general behaviour of the tyres, they are
great. The front bite is much more improved, with the rear providing great stability together
with the increased slow speed traction. The changes I made to the car I believe have
allowed the car to move more ‘freely’, so maybe the default setup we have for the car
currently is a little too tight.
Great job, we are really getting close on this one, just a few little weird characteristics that
need to be looked into. hope this helps.
Keep pushing!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
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We do not do dirt pickup yet, but going off track still is a little weird on temperatures. So it is
likely the surface of the tire (incorrectly) overheated going off track, resulting in a period of
greasiness.
Oh, and thanks for the feedback, as usual. J
The bad setup part will have to be investigated. If it is the tires, it is likely too much tack,
from the condition and the symptom description. It could also be something in the
car/setup itself is not what you might have on the real Dallara on that off setup, resulting in
an unexpected, but maybe realistic, behavior. I slightly lean towards the later because
these are much higher tack tires on other cars without this effect having been noted.
In any case, until some other condition shows itself, or this condition is truly isolated to the
tires, I think we can think of the R20 as a release candidate and keep working the FC
default setup.
Or rather, the base is a release candidate. There is still how this dry tire behaves in the wet
and maybe graining we will address. But those do not alter the base.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 767 and will cover the new updates to the
Renault Clio Cup Car.
Renault Clio Cup
So this car is interesting, as I feel that we have made great progress from previous builds,
but there are some characteristics and factors that make the car quite unrealistic and too
easy to drive in comparison to a real life Clio Cup Car. What I have noticed is that, we
have the foundation characteristics present e.g. lift-off oversteer, the rear hopping when at
the limit of the tyre etc. but there are other characteristics that are too strong, which
causes some negative and unrealistic feelings that outweigh the other positive
characteristics we have with the car.
Single Lap Pace/ Grip Level
Firstly and most importantly, the car is about 2-4 seconds too fast in comparison to real life,
this does depend on what circuit you are at, but overall the car is too fast. The issue I feel
that causes the car to be too fast over a single lap is down to the overall grip available,
which is a lot higher than you would find/feel in real life. The front of the car is very
aggressive on initial entry, which is not caused by rear rotation, but actually from the front
bite of the tyre itself, which makes the overall feeling of the front-end too strong.
The front tyres have great mid-corner hold in general, but this is also too strong and grippy,
which allows you to take ‘Coram’ at ‘Snetterton 300’ near enough flat, which actually is a
‘half-lift’ at mid-corner in real life. Currently there does not seem to be much understeer/
push generated by the front tyres exceeding their load limit, as the tyres seem to be able
to perform at any load level, which allows the driver to get away with near enough
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anything and being able to use unrealistic driving styles without it actually affecting the
cars balance or pace. As well as unrealistic levels of grip at the front tyres, the general
balance with the rear tyres producing high levels of grip, also make the overall balance
feel a little too easy and too safe.
With a Clio, they are very edgy and generally unsafe with a lot of mid-corner oversteer and
instability that will punish you if the incorrect technique is used to drive them. The front tyres
are very easy to over-drive, especially on new tyres and can ‘go off’ and give a lot of
understeer if pushed too hard. At the moment, driving this car realistically is too slow, as the
physics and the way the characteristics are put together on this car are too strong and
stable (too good!). This means that, as there is more grip overall both from the aggression
of the front tyres, as well as rear stability, you can get away with carrying a lot more speed
on entry and through the corner in comparison to real life, which makes the general pace
and lap time of the car a lot faster.
‘Lift-off oversteer’ works well with this car, but the fact that the overall balance is very
grippy means that moments/slides are too easy to save, control and get out of, as the rear
rotates but the grip of the rear will stop rotation to a point, together with the front tyres
providing great traction, which allows you to plant the throttle and get out of any situation.
All of this to me makes the car feel very ‘Arcady’, as it feels very soft on the front with a lot
of stability on the rear, which allows you to get away with everything. Clio’s in real life
require a lot of thought and precision to be fast. You cannot get away with driving them
erratically or lifting hugely in the middle of a corner to get the rear to slide/rotate and then
get on the power and correct it all again like you can currently in Pcars. All of the rotation
on the rear of the car has to be on entry to the corner, to where the car pivots and then
allows the driver to apply the throttle as early as possible. They are not always controllable
during a slide, as they do not always have the required BHP to straighten the front back up.
They are very stiff at the rear, with the unloaded rear tyre lifting up and locking-up at times.
Through high-speed, the rear is always ‘floating’ and ‘dancing’ around, with good stability
under braking but trail braking is very delicate.
As I said earlier in this post, we have some great characteristics that are present in the
overall feeling of the car, so this is not my issue. I personally would like to do what I did with
AJ and the FC and that is to develop the tyre from scratch, to where I can develop the car
around the tyre to make both the tyre and car work together realistically, as going off of
what Renault have given in terms of setup and how the car should be, does not fully
replicate the actual feeling of the car when driving it. Having gone through this sort of
process with AJ and the FC, I feel it could be a lot more beneficial, to where I can analyse
the tyres from cold to optimum and give the car what it needs for extra realism.
As I said, the general balance and characteristics the car gives off are not far away, it is
the tyres that are the issue and the most unrealistic cause. Driving in a straight line going
from full-lock left to full-lock right with no change to the balance of the car is a big point of
unrealism and something I noticed during testing. I know we are pushed for time, but this
should be an easy fix, as the foundation of the tyres and car balance is there already. It is
totally up to you Casey, and everyone else in SMS and WMD. I am just trying to get the
feeling as realistic as possible and although we have a good foundation of feeling, there
are just some fundamental changes that need to happen to get this car we it needs to be.
I hope you can understand my reasons.
Keep pushing!
Nic
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Casey Ringley:
That's really good info. Will be using your data point at Snetterton when reducing tire grip
for this car.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Did I get/cover everything you needed for the Clio Casey?
Is it not easier to start with a basic tyre, and then add grip and develop both the tyre and
the balance/behaviour of the car as we go along, instead of starting with a very grippy
tyre and having to take away grip whilst trying to keep the characteristics of the car
present at the same time?
Obviously you know better than me, it is just a question.
Let me know if you need me to cover any more of the Clio, and if there are any specific
cars you want me to test, then let me know and I will get on it tomorrow. You did say chose
from the list you gave me, but if there is any specifics then just shout.
Thanks
Casey Ringley:
think you hit the nail squarely on the head, yeah. We've moved the basic setup and
chassis stuff in the right direction and it's now just the excess grip which is causing trouble.
The basic tire carcass it is using is very good for the job, IMO, so in this case it'll be easier to
just dial down the grip level of the rubber to get into the correct performance envelope. I
tried a very quick test at this last night and it had a good effect.
BTW, in addition to that list, the Ginetta G55 GT4 will be in a good state for testing
tomorrow. Another car you know well, so that should be a nice test.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Just took the G55 GT4 for a spin and it feels quite weird both from a balance perspective
and from engine performance and gearing. I will go into more detail tomorrow in my blog
post, but at the moment, my initial thoughts are that the car feels very boring on power,
with no presence as the engine feels dead and feels like you are short shifting all of the
time. Under braking, the car is very vey unstable, with locking being very sensitive, where in
real life, you are able to hit the brake pedal hard initially. High speed feels pretty good, but
entry and mid corner feels too docile both on initial turn in and at the apex. The engine
does not seem to 'sing' it feels very lazy, but the pace and speed is ok, so changes to the
engine will change the overall perspective and behaviour of the car. On initial thoughts,
there is too much traction at the rear, but I will look into this more.
I will do some more testing tomorrow, more in depth, but I just wanted to give you a little
something tonight. J
P.S I know this is very early stages for this car, so I do not want to come across to harsh, but
these are my initial thoughts :D
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Nicolas Hamilton:
My Office for today J
Will have my feedback for you guys at some point today!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 770 and will cover Tyres and cars such as, the
GT3, GT4, and the R5 Tyre on the Formula B.
Circuit: Hockenheim GP
Mode: Time Trial
GT3
Ok so, with the GT3 tyre, I decided to test it on two different cars for some back to back
comparison, as I found a few differences in how the new GT3 tyre affects different cars, to
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the point where the feeling of the two cars are very close, but with minor differences when
at the limit.
McLaren MP4 12-C - GT3 Slick Soft
Ok so this was the first car I ran with the new/updated GT3 tyre. At the start of my testing
programme, I found the difference to the tyre in comparison to previous versions was that
the front tyre is a lot more aggressive on initial turn–in, which caught me by surprise as was
affecting the rear of the car a lot through high-speed. With the changes I felt with the front
tyre, I thought that it felt a little too ‘grabby’, where it is so aggressive and pointy initially, it
unsettles the rear of the car a lot.
For the first couple of laps, I was struggling with high-speed stability through Turn 7 (the flatout right kink) where the front was so aggressive, that it was causing an instant
snap/oversteer which was impossible to correct. The balance issue I was experiencing I feel
was not down to the rear or the stability it gives, but down to the fact that the changes to
the tyre has affected the front aggression. To improve the balance of the car, I wanted to
make the front a little less aggressive on initial turn-in but not to affect the front of the car in
medium and slow-speed corners. I stiffened-up the front, took some camber off and made
some changes to the diff’s to where a then added a little more grip to the rear to
compensate.
The balance now is pretty decent, with the car allowing you to push it to the limit, with
tendencies to get out of shape with movements etc. but this is all controllable and
impressive. I experienced some high-speed oversteer at Turn 12, where the car moved at
mid-corner but was very progressive and made you feel like you were on the limit to make
you think ‘Wow, that was close’! This is good, as it shows we can get the tyre to react
realistically to where it is balancing on the limit of the tyre, where it grips up and holds the
car, or if pushed too far, will punish you.
At the moment for me, I feel that the front is a little too aggressive through high-speed
when on power, as this is still affecting the balance quite a lot and takes away a little
confidence, as sometimes you are not sure if you can apply any more steering lock, as you
are unsure what the rear will do. There is great front bite and rear stability through slow and
medium-speed corners, with no braking instability, which needs to be added to give a bit
more realism during heavy braking. There seems to be a lot of/too much traction on exit,
where planting your foot on the throttle does not really affect the rear or balance of the
car, which takes away the modulation factor that should be needed.
BMW M3 GT – GT3 Soft Slick
Ok so I think this car is MEGA! I honestly have no criticism for this car, as I feel we have it
pretty much nailed. In comparison to the McLaren, this car gives off a lot more feeling, it is
more predictable, as you know what the car is going to do and how it is going to react.
The front tyre aggression affects the car a lot less in comparison to the McLaren, but seems
to have a little more rear stability and hold, which makes the rear more safe, predictable
and allows you to push harder with no worries.
As well as the predictability differences with this car compared to the McLaren, there is
realistic braking instability, where the car moves and squirms during heaving braking, which
requires control on entry to the corner. The braking is very strong with lots of grip and with
no unrealistic snap as the car tries to move. The traction on exit is pretty much perfect in
my eyes, it requires modulation when applying throttle, there is quite a bit of forgiveness, so
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if you do apply the throttle a little too much when pushing, it will snap but there is grip
available which makes it controllable. If you go ‘Over the top’ (OTT) with power
application, then the car will bite and punish you for it. The car is always moving at the rear
but gives you great stability and confidence at the same time, which gives you the
sensation of being on the limit contently.
Both cars are very impressive and allow you to push them to the limit consistently. In my
eyes, the balance of the McLaren needs to be adapted a little bit to take away a bit of
the front aggression of the tyre, with a change to allow some braking instability and less
traction on exit, which will need modulation.
Both cars are not far apart on lap time, there is for sure a lot more time in the McLaren, as I
did not find a balance or lap I was completely happy with, so the times will be a lot closer
when I find a set-up I am happy with.
McLaren MP4 12-C: 1:39.4
BMW M3 GT: 1:38.6
Try my BMW M3 GT setup; I think it is pretty good, it may not be suited to you guys, but give
it a go.
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Ginetta G55 GT4 – GT4 Slick
Circuit: Snetterton 300
Mode: Time Trial
Ok so this car I find very odd, it does not feel too great in my eyes and is about 4 seconds
too fast in comparison to real life. I made some comments on this car at the end of last
week, which were my first initial thoughts and so I may repeat myself a little.
This car feels really lazy to me, both on power and in terms of aggression and car
behaviour, which is why I am a little confused on how it is so fast in sector 1, as at the
moment this car is about 3 seconds too fast in sector 1 alone. The gearing is very odd and
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too long, which does not allow the engine to sound and perform near its potential, but it
feels like the overall speed is ok.
So in terms of general balance, the car as I said feels very lazy, the front bite and
aggression on entry is not high enough and instead makes you feel like you are in the wet
when going through medium and high-speed corners. The weird feeling to me is due to the
fact that, as there is not much front downforce or aggression, it means that you have to
take most of the corners in a gear lower than in real life, but you still end up around 3
seconds too fast. Braking is very unstable, with the brakes being very sensitive and allowing
easy lockups, which gives you no confidence on the brakes where one touch of the pedal
can lock all four wheels instantly, even on entry to high-speed corners in comparison to
real life, where the car is very strong on the brakes and requires quite a lot of brake
pressure from the driver with lock ups only occurring towards the end of the braking phase,
unless the applied pressure to the brakes initially is too hard to where it will then lock-up
instantly.
One important factor that I do not feel I get with this car in Pcars, is the sense of speed on
entry and though high-speed corners. In real life, this car feels very aggressive but stable; it
has a good amount of downforce at the front, which means that front entry bite and initial
turn-in is very strong. During mid-corner the car tends to understeer, which requires
patience with rear stability being very strong also, as the rear wing provides the downforce
you need to keep the car settled through medium and high-speed. Most instability from
my experience comes from throttle application, traction and wheel-spin where throttle
modulation is key for exits.
In a ‘nutshell’ the car needs to be improved in terms of sense of speed, which can come
from the engine sounds revving higher with shorter gear ratios. More aggression and grip
from the front tyres, where the front downforce of the car works harder, with less traction
on exit to allow the characteristic of realistic modulation, as at the moment this is too
strong. Braking quality needs to be looked into also with braking needing to be less
sensitive to allow more driver feeling during the braking phase and for the window of the
initial ‘hit’ of the brake pedal to tyre lock-up needing to be longer.
As a first pass, this car has an ok base foundation, my main causes for concern are the
sense of speed, with the engine sounds and dull gear ratios, along with the braking
instability and inaccuracy and the lack of front aggression and bite, which feels like you
are driving in the wet but the car is actually 3 seconds too fast in comparison to real life.
Working on the front of the car, braking and sense of speed is what I feel needs to happen
first, we can then improve the realism of the rear afterwards, as at the moment, the front
feels too weak to give an accurate decision of what to do with the rear.
Look at the below video, note the initial front aggression, but with the tendency of
understeer and push at mid-corner where more steering lock is needed. Braking is very
strong, with no lock-ups initially with a lot of brake pressure required and the use of engine
braking to help the car slow down. Most of the rear instability is due to traction and throttle
application and not due to a lack of rear downforce and balance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RUip3RbpoE
Just a quick note, this car now uses paddle-shift in real life, the gear stick in Pcars is not
needed.
Formula B – R5 Slick
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Circuit: Hockenheim GP
Mode: Time Trial
Ok so this tyre is definitely an improvement to the last one in previous builds. Although there
is an improvement on the tyre side, I still think that the way the whole car feels and acts is
pretty ‘Dead’. It is very similar to the Ginetta G55 GT4, where there is no life in the car at all.
The engine ‘bogs’ down and there is hardly any throttle response. It is really hard to give
feedback on this car with regards to the tyres because of the way the car reacts
mechanically, with weird gear shifts and ratios, no throttle response to where it feels like I
am driving my ‘Automatic Road Car’ where you apply throttle and nothing happens for a
couple of seconds. All of this makes me feel like I am not driving a race car at all, let alone
and single-seater, which makes me feel like I cannot drive the tyres as hard as they need
to be driven and can only go as hard as what the car’s laziness will let me.
From a tyres perspective, there has been a good improvement compared to previous
revisions. There is no more ‘3 wheeling’, but a tendency to lock the unloaded tyre, which
feels good. At the moment, there is a lot of grip everywhere, which in some ways is good,
but in terms of realism, I do not think that it is where it needs to be. The front tyre is very
aggressive and in my eyes too aggressive to the point that it has too much initial entry bite,
where the change of direction is due to the aggression of the front tyre which takes away
feeling the affect of the downforce of the car. The initial entry bite of the front tyre is only
present during high-speed where there is literally no bite or grip at all at mid-corner of slowspeed with a little more grip but still not enough during mid-corner through medium speed.
There is a lot of traction on exit, but this does not give the driver any feeling as the throttle
application feels ‘dead’ due the issues I mentioned earlier. In my eyes, there is too much
rear traction, as there is no throttle modulation required at any point at corner exit and
does not feel realistic to me.
At the moment, this car is beyond a tyre issue, I can only tell you what I am feeling and
cannot actually say what needs to be changed in terms of the engine, throttle
responsiveness etc. to make the driver feel like they are driving a race car, we have
achieved this with all of our other cars, to me it is just the Ginetta G55 GT4 and this car that
need work in this regard.
The tyres are at a good level, they are not perfect, which is to be expected and need work
on entry bite aggression at high-speed, mid-corner bite and grip at medium and slowspeed corners and less traction. The weird feeling that the car gives off, as I said is not
down to the tyres, I would personally want to focus on the other issues before looking
further into the tyres, as the car is not allowing for good, accurate testing and there is no
point testing a tyre on a car that does not respond correctly. Maybe make the changes to
the tyres, as well as improving the other issues I mentioned with this car and then test them
both together, this will save time and will make improvements to both parts of which I have
discussed.
All in all, yet again there has been some fantastic progress especially with the GT cars and
GT3 tyres. As you all know, I am not trying to be negative when I say I do not like certain
cars or characteristics etc. I am just trying to make sure we cover all of the bases and each
car is as solid as possible.
I hope this helps.
Keep pushing!
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Casey Ringley:
That's great. J You've hit exactly on the stuff I worked on with the Friday G55 GT4 update.
Braking force calculated properly, giving better balance and modulation; optional drop
gears added, and the most common (shortest) option should better fit a track like
Snetterton; and aero balance shifted forward somewhat to make the front end more
positive on quick steering input. It still sounds soft with those V8 sounds that are made for a
9000rpm engine. We'll need to get some Fordy V6 sounds drawn up for this one and,
eventually, the Radical RXC Turbo.
Andrew Weber:
The FB soundly saturates FFB by default, and also does not have FFB settings dialed
specifically for the FB. I think this is where a lot of the dead comes from. I have my own FFB
tweaker for it, but it is not in game yet, but that alone makes a big difference for me,
bringing the car to life.
Evidence is also mounting that the FB simply has too much grip, which can also add to the
dead.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Is there any reason for the throttle deadness, ratios, engine performance etc. I don't see
FFB an issue at the moment, my issue is just the feeling the car gives you regardless of the
other characteristics. Just purely applying power etc does not seem/feel right to me.
So in your eyes, do you see that FFB and pure grip level is what is causing the deadness
and weird feeling?
On another note, did I cover what you needed with the R5?
Andrew Weber:
Some of the deadness, yes. Some throttle response for sure can be felt, as too much grip
will bog things up too much. Ratios are maybe off too, and that is not FFB, that is just
default setup. Higher speed engine performance is maybe not FFB either, although can be
somewhat...for example, the throttle may not free the car up enough on a sweeper with
too much grip.
There is so much knock-on effect in a car, that with two big knowns being off (FFB and
grip), it is hard to isolate if anything else is grossly off. So you are correct to not invest much
more in the FB until we resolve those.
The biggest clue that FFB is a big deal is that with a different tweaker I went from feeling
very much like you do (dead car), to having one of the most fun drives in pCars (for me).
But even with that, on some corners the grip feels too high to me...it almost feels like a kart
binding up.
edit: Oh yeah, the FB engine sound is "dead" too compared to the FC, so switching
between those might hurt the engine "feel" of the FB just a bit as well.
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Yes, I understand AJ, so what are the next steps with the FB after my comments today? I
would like to sort all of the other issues mentioned and then focus on the testing, is this your
plan?
Let me know if there is anything else you would like me to cover or help you with also.
Andrew Weber:
The next steps on the FB are to address those two things: default FFB and overall grip. I am
not saying that is all we do, but we address the known big issues in front of us first, and then
see what things feel like.
For FFB, I am working on FFB Topology 3 right now, with the L49 (with FFB test tires) as the
main mule. I'll work the FB into that test mix so the FB will get a Topology 3 default as soon
as it is ready.
For grip, reducing that is trivial. I'll knock it down to an effective Cf of about 1.9-2.0. It crept
up over 2.1-2.2+ with some recent changes, which is probably F1 super soft range.
From there we'll then get a cleaner read on the engine, chassis, etc, and probably dial
those then.
Ben Collins:
pcars July 28
Mclaren f1
It's a step in the right direction, but still some way to go in terms of stability and user
friendliness.
The F1 isn't quite this evil!
At very high speed it does start to "walk" owing to its lack of aerodynamics, but on the front
straight at Imola there's a kink before you brake and at the moment the Mclaren F1 sim is
unable to steer a path through it, it just ploughes and understeers into the wall.
At lower speed the real Mac is relatively nimble and certainly responsive to the throttle - it
doesn't feel slovenly and quite so roll happy as the sim currently reads, that sense of roll in
RL becomes more apparent only at very high speed.
I think it's fair to introduce some benign roll understeer into the Mac Sim at medium and
high speed corners when the limit it reached , but we need to be careful how this is done
because currently there's so much roll that you can lose control in the straight and that's
unfair.
Brake & steer - the Mac seems to have the issue of spinning when you press the brake
pedal in a curve
General: I would like a lot more stability, and to feel the car is a lot more steady underfoot
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with less roll than what we have. In terms of grip, the grip level might be about right (if on
the low side) were it not for the excessive roll,because there's no doubt that driving this car
on the throttle in RL requires a sensitive touch to control wheelspin, and there's limited front
grip for agile fast cornering.
The braking in the sim is a bit lethargic and its hard to lock the tyres, which matches my
experience of the RL Mac - so it's about right give or take, bearing in mind the comments
re roll and spinning on the brakes in a corner which we should work on.
Formula B - cr2
Sensational
Key Points:
Excellent turn in - compliant and responsive
Great sound from rubber on the edge
Braking issue: I Moved Braking pressure to 100% but still not locking a tyre - or barely locking
(an easy fix i'm sure, but an important one - i cranked the bias forward to 70% front brake
and barely locked the fronts and only at the end of braking)
We are V close on exit traction - just slightly unpredictable out of slow corners but mostly
you can predict and squeeze the throttle with a gradual response from the car
The incredible feature of this car with the CR2 is the dynamic response when you apply
power. One of the major nuances of RL racing is the way the car responds when you press
the loud pedal - the rear squats and sits down which loads the rear tyres and creates grip,
but at the same time as you apply power it tests the traction until it gradually reaches its
limited and begins to slide and balance. Even in the F1 simulator i didn't experience the
ability to settle he car by touching a hint of throttle, and squeeze it until the car made the
graceful transition into oversteer - and this car does it. 10/10
The only fault on accel is that when you do break traction it is a major drop off in grip and
you occasionally go into an unrecoverable slide. The car is superb and fires warming shots
up until that point, but at high speed in particular when you chase a fraction too much
throttle and break traction on the exit - the rear is deadly punishing
The other critical comment is regards traction out of slows corners which is forgiving up to a
point, but then you seem to step over an invisible line and the car spins. It's strange
because the rear feels so pliable as per my comment above but then there are times it just
lets go. If the audio gave me some wheelspin sound or something to sense this point then i
would be happy, because the driveability is awesome and i've been stonking this car
around Imola all night!! I love it.
I tried tuning the rear end and for the first time in my PCARS engineering career i had some
limited success. When i was pushing i found i had a few problems
1. Turn in oversteer at the first chicane after heavy braking (NB my lack of brake pressure
didn't help)
2. I wanted more stability in the rear when chasing the throttle, especially at high speed.
As mentioned i dialled the brake bias to 70 front to avoid the entry o/steer but it didn't help
much. So i softened off the rear: especially bump and rebound, put on a stiffer front bar
and reduced front downforce, and i dropped rear ride height, which actually made the
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rear more driveable and easier to control certainly a high speed. At low speed i still made
a habit of crossing the invisible line. .
My final thought was that perhaps the car was a bit too quick - i dare not use the word grip
because i dont want to lose the balance and remain keen to resolve the traction gripe,
but it does feel a bit rapid on braking and entering..
This car is amazing just as it is - so close to perfection. A thing of beauty.
Gt3 tyres - BMW M3 GT - default
This had been one of my favourite cars, but something has changed
It now has lots of understeer and is v floaty at the rear, particularly on acceleration - i'm
afraid i really don't like this direction
The previous version I drove felt much tighter and frankly was nearly perfect in my view this version feels like the two ends are disconnected with low grip at the front and very soft
rolling rears, so that the car is turning whenever you apply the power.
Under braking the fronts feel very low grip, so that when you brake the car goes straight
and then locks the fronts easily, as well as on entry to low speed corners. I'm confused by
this and am sorry for being negative but we were in such a strong position before and now
it drives a bit like a NASCAR - and oddly enough its sounding like one as well.
I switched to the Z4
I moved brake bias to 68 from 71
Initially feels less floaty but it's still there and there's a similar sense of disconnect within the
chassis - very low grip, too easy to lose rear stability and no real front grip for slowing down
or carrying speed through the corner, and hard to predict when the car will reach the limit.
Far too much sense of roll in the car without the grip to support it.
There's very little give now as the car changes from understeer to oversteer and I think the
general issue is lack of grip all round
Tried soft compound tyres and it still feels very lazy, with excessive entry understeer and
slow response on the power, followed by a casual roll into oversteer. Again i'm not sure
where this has come from because the previous version felt so tight and responsive
BMW M3 gt4 - MANUAL!
I defy you not to enjoy this one!
Braking: I began with some enormous rear wheel locking and switched the bias from 57 to
70 per cent front braking and still found the tail quite wayward when slowing in anything
less than a straight line, but it's allot of fun.
Given my experience of the GT3 tyre, which wasn't as positive as I hoped, I expected the
GT4 derivative to feel difficult. Overall it does feel a bit low grip, a bit prone to rolling and as
with the other BMWs it sounds a bit nascar - but it's tons of fun to drive.
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Part of that is because I loved getting into heel and toe with this monster - and also
because you can really drive this car on the throttle - it lets you kick the tail out and drift
out of the corners.
Whether a GT4 has quite such a power to grip ratio is another question - but I salute the
user friendliness of the traction and a bit more of this easy traction would really help the
CR2 tyre which is still just a bit too aggressive in grip drop off when you start to skid.
The general balance of the GT4 is about right (unlike my feeling in the GT3) and being
boring for a moment - it does feel a bit too soft, and effectively feels to have a bit too
much power. I hate myself for admitting it but we should keep this good feeling on the
power for the GT3 car which does have more power, and can be driven slightly sideways
out of corners with an ear to ear grin.
Renault Clio Cup
A very cool car
Braking - at 80 per cent brake pressure I couldn't lock a tyre
At first I thought the steering was a bit unresponsive and could do with reacting a little
sooner to steering inputs - I do think this would help.
Once I got going I tried throwing the car in by steering a lot further and faster into the
corners and it's awesome, because you pitch in completely sideways AND the sim lets you
sort out the mess by accelerating - which you can only do with a front wheel drive car of
course.
Unless Nic tells me different - I wouldn't expect the car to go quite as far over onto two
wheels when clipping the apex kerbs at Tamburello chicane at Imola, and then going
massively sideways! I felt the car was a little over sensitive to kerb hopping in this manner by
comparison to BTCC cars and other fwd models i've driven like the Megane.
Besides the steering and braking (minor issues both), I was mightily impressed with this car
and with a little more initial steering response gets a massive thumbs up!
Liking the new Hashtag #beyondreality and quite right too - the graphics in the garage are
ridiculous and i've turned into a window licker, spending far too much time in the PCARS
garage than is healthy for my marriage. I can't wait for this to release because it's gonna
blow the doors of the other 'games' out there. Great work on the physics and with a few
more subtle tweeks i will never need to leave my house...
PS it looks like i may be racing at COTA in WEC at Texas later in September 19th, so for any
of you US based geezers i may see you there (Casey?)
Hope this is helpful
All the best Ben
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Casey Ringley:
First things first, I'm liking the idea of WEC @ COTA. Should be an awesome few days at the
track and a good chance to talk about the game. Will take a look at what's going on and
see if I can't plan to be there (and maybe convince/drag the other guys along J). Anyone
else planning to go?
Your thoughts on the FB CR2 tire match up perfectly with what I see in the data. There is
one tweak which I've done to some tires that you like which hasn't made its way to that
one yet, and it should do exactly what you want: more throttle stability and less sharp a
dropoff in grip when breaking traction. I'll get that added for the next revision.
ps: Agreed. Heel-toe'ing in the GT4 is massive fun!
Ben Collins:
Outstanding - keep me posted if you can make it to Texas! Would be awesome to catch
up there
Looking forward to trying the tweak on the CR2, we're so close with that one
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AUGUST 2014
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Just so you all know, I am way from Monday August 4th - Tuesday 11th August.
Please let me know if there is anything I need to work on for you all before I leave, I want to
make sure everything is covered before I go.
Thanks
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope everyone is well!
So I am out in Colorado and working and planning with SMS on testing plans for next week
when I get back.
I have been asked to work on some confidential information, so my next blog/ feedback
will not be posted in my Thread, but I am sure I will be able to share the exiting news and
tests with you all at some point.
See you all when I am back!
Nic J
Andrew Weber:
I've almost got a new FB test ready for you. Turns out there is something about Casey's CR2
that I could apply to R5 to make an R6, but I am chasing a few knock on effects. Actually I
am back applying this discovery to the FC to make an R21 too. I am also looking at the FA's
proper use of it a touch more now, although I probably won't release that quite yet.
Mostly the CR2 and R5 are different enough to not cross pollinate well. But this one thing is
a pretty cool thing Casey worked out that does cross pollinate.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Sounds great AJ, I arrive back in the UK tomorrow Lunchtime and will be able to hit testing
on Friday Morning. When you get time, just let me know the full details of what you need
me to test with the FB and the different tire revisions, FFB files (if any etc) You know what I
am like, I like to have a checklist of what I need to test/ analyse to maximise my
programme.
Thanks J
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Andrew Weber:
OK, I checked in an R6 and a "CR2 lo" tire for testing. They are not perfectly grip matched
yet though, so expect better laptimes in the CR2 lo for now. I also checked in a new FFB
default for the FB which is for a CSW, unlike the FC and L49 defaults, which are for
G25/G27.
The primary goal of testing is to see if we are even in the ballpark yet. Last time the FB
feedback was that the car was pretty far off, possibly not even due to tires. My theory was
it was too much grip and the FFB was saturated. Both of those should be fixed now.
If we are in the ballpark, do your normal thing. Cold phase, warm phase, corner phases,
etc. The main tires to test are R6 and CR2 lo. If you should find yourself thinking grip is too
low, switch to R5 and CR2, but I don't think you'll think that. Plus, R6 has more than just less
grip than R5. It has other advancements.
One thing to note is that R6's Mz (self aligning torque) is higher than CR2's (just due to how
they are laid up different), so the FFB is inherently a little stronger on the R6 than the CR2. So
you may have to dial Tire Force in controller settings switching back and forth between
tires to get the FFB magnitude to be comparable and where you like it per tire.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Thanks for this AJ, sounds great.
I have now arrived home and now ready to get straight to work on this, I will carry out my
programme and will have my feedback for you soon.
If there is anything else in the meantime, then just shout.
Thanks J
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so it’s great to be back and to be continuing development and progress with Pcars, I
am so exited about this game and I am so proud to have had some input. This post is going
to be based on Build 791 and will cover the Formula B and the 2 revisions of tyres that AJ
has asked me to test, which are the CR2 Lo and the R6 Tyres. I will also looking at the
change/improvements that have been made to the car since I last gave feedback on it,
which is HERE.
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Time Trial
FFB
So before I go onto the 2 tyre revisions I have been testing, I want to talk about the default
FFB, which AJ set up for me ready for this test. Having driven both tyres, as AJ predicted,
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there are some differences in FFB behaviour between the two and in my eyes, need some
more work to perfect and fine-tune the feeling, which is to be expected.
FFB - CR2 Lo
Ok, so with this tyre, as I said, AJ was right with the fact that I had to increase the Tyre Force
Multi from standard (0.6) to around 1.4, which was where I felt was the most
accurate/realistic feeling, but 1.5 and 1.6 felt pretty good too. The issues I felt I was having
with the increased tyre force was that, the FFB did not feel very consistent in the centre of
the wheel, where it felt very weak and lazy, which then got stronger as you turned the
wheel either left or right. The reason why I feel this is such an issue, is because, as the FFB is
weak in the middle (when the steering wheel is straight) and strong when turn to the left or
right, it creates a ‘Seesaw’ affect (or if you are American :P) a ‘teeter-totter’ affect, to
where the wheel moves from right to left quite dramatically depending on the
strength/setting of of the tyre force.
This means that you feel, left strong, middle weak, right strong, which if unsettled in a
straight line, will start a ‘Seesaw’ motion in a straight line. If you keep the steering wheel in
the Centre and do not move it, (which is hard at times) due to balance correction, then
nothing happens. As you get to the ‘turn-in’ phase, the ‘Seesaw’ affect starts to work
against you as you go through the rotation of the wheel from ‘Right, to middle, to left, or
vice Versa. Through a chicane especially, you can feel the ‘strong, weak, strong motion,
which unsettles the steering and feeling of the car completely, as it feels like the steering
wheel is not fully connected to the ‘Steering Boss’
In terms of improvement, I feel we need to work on the FFB being strong thoughout the full
360° rotation of the wheel, so that there is no weakness in the middle. In real life, a steering
wheel feels pretty consistent in terms of weight throughout its rotation and only changes in
characteristics due to balance changes or characteristic changes of the car e.g. lockups
etc. At the moment, there is quite a big dead zone in the middle of the steering wheel,
where you can turn it from left to right within the central area, which does not affect the
actual wheels of the car, whereas in real life, steering wheel movement has an instant
affect on the direction of the cars wheels, so if I had what I am experiencing with our
current FFB in real life, then I would think there is something majorly wrong.
FFB – R6
Ok so this tyre brings some different characteristics within the FFB, but also characteristics
that are very similar than when using the CR2 Lo tyre. With this tyre, I still feel there is the
same sort of issues with the FFB, but I do find it interesting that it gives off different types of
characteristics compared to the CR2 Lo Tyre. With this tyre, I used the same FFB Tyre Force
setting at 1.4, there seemed to be less weakness and more strength in the middle of the
wheel in comparison to the CR2 Lo, so this meant that there was less of a ‘Seesaw’ affect,
but this was still present to some extent.
The main difference I felt with this tyre in terms of the FFB characteristics was on corner
entry when turning the wheel. With the CR2 Lo, there is strength when you turn either left or
right, with only weakness in the middle, whereas with the R6 tyre, there is more strength in
the middle of the wheel, the same amount of strength on the initial turn of the wheel, but
as the wheel gets to around 70°, all of the FFB disappears and becomes light. This gives the
feeling that the steering wheel ‘tugs’ or ‘pulls’ its way through entry of the corner. The
reason why it feels like it is ‘tugging’ is due to the fact that you apply strength to turn the
wheel initially, but then the FFB dies away, so your hand (with the applied strength)
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experiences a sort of ‘snap rotation’, almost feeling like, (if we were talking about tyre grip)
it ‘falls off the cliff’.
Once I felt the above with the R6, I went directly back to the CR2 tyre for comparison and
noticed that there is a slight tendency for the CR2 Lo tyre to give off the same
characteristic on a smaller scale, which makes it harder to notice, but what I did notice
was that, both tyres seem to have a ‘cliff drop’ in FFB during the turn-in phase, with the CR2
Lo better with less of an affect in this sense, but worse than tha R6 in terms of strength in the
middle of the wheel (Seesaw affect).
FFB accuracy has been a point for improvement for a while, with FFB over kerbs and grass
needing to be looked at, so I am glad that we are starting to develop and improve the FFB
and hope that my feedback helps.
Moving onto my testing of the tyres with regards to performance.
CR2 Lo
General Balance
Ok so this time around, there has been a massive improvement in the general balance of
the car, in comparison to last month, there are no more odd ‘3 wheeling’ moments and
only now, realistic ‘unloaded’ lock-ups. The general balance of the car I feel is very much
affected by the Default FFB, which does not help in getting the full feeling out of the car.
For my testing of general balance, I used Time Trial mode to use the tyres at optimum
temperature to see exactly where the car is at this stage.
At the moment, I feel the car is at a pretty decent level, but needs to be adjusted/ finetuned to get the most realistic experience out of it. This tyre to me gives off a solid level of
grip/traction on initial throttle application but will break/lose traction if the wrong
technique is used, which is a good characteristic to have for a car like this. The best way to
explain the feeling I get with this car is by describing the characteristics that need
improving, as the chassis and behavior of the car is good, but the characteristics of the
tyres let the overall balance down. To start with, there does not seem to be enough grip
from the front tyres under braking, as the fronts lock up very easily to the point where the
limit of the tyre is easily exceeded, which means that you have to brake with less pressure
and less aggression, which is not as realistic as it should be. Decreasing brake pressure in
set-up does help, but I still feel this is too sensitive as the car needs a little more stopping
power.
As well as a lack of bite and aggression under braking, this tyre struggles with a lack front
bite/grip, but this depends on corner speed and corner phase.
To put it simply....
High Speed – Very similar to Medium speed characteristics (below), with a decent amount
of initial entry bite, but then a lack of mid-corner hold/ grip, which causes the tyres to
understeer and scrub. In some cases e.g. Turn 3, the downforce works very well to counterbalance the lack of mid-corner hold to were you can feel the aero working, but on entry
to Turn 9, there is very little front bite and mid-corner hold, which causes you to rely on the
downforce and aero of the car to pull you through the corner.
Medium Speed – Front entry bite is at a good level, but lacks mid-corner hold as the car
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begins to push as the loaded tyre starts to overwork.
Slow Speed – Hardly no front bite at all, with a huge about of laziness and understeer at
mid corner, which causes unrealistic amounts of steering lock with very poor turning ability.
In terms of the rear of the car, I feel that more grip needs to be added laterally, as it feels
like the rear tyre slides and moves a lot on the surface of the tyre, causing instability in the
middle of the tyre, but this is then backed up by a high level of grip on the outside of the
tyre. Going back to the braking phase and throttle application/traction levels, even
though there is a strong level of grip on the outside of the rear tyres, there is quite a bit of
rear instability when trail braking, which is caused by the lack of bite/grip in the middle of
the rear tyre. Carrying the car into the apex on the brakes, is very important with SingleSeaters, where it helps the car stop on its nose and pivot, whereas, at the moment, there is
quite a bit of snap oversteer, which stops this type of technique. As well as a lack of grip in
the middle of the rear tyre when under lateral load, there seems to be a little too much
instability on the outside of the rear tyre during throttle application, as the car does not
seem to move as the middle part of the tyre is being used, but then loses traction as soon
as the outside is under load.
In terms of improvements, the main issue with these tyres is slow-speed entry and midcorner bite, which really needs to improve to help front and overall aggression of the car.
Increasing front grip/ mid-corner hold through medium and high-speed corners also needs
to be looked at, with rear traction needing to be increased when the outside of the rear
tyre is under load. Increasing braking aggression by improving the bite/grip available to
the front tyre, would be a great step, as this will also increase the braking window of initial
‘pedal hit’ to tyre lock-up. Increasing grip available in the middle of the rear tyre to help
with high-speed lateral stability I feel needs to happen also, as the rear seems to have too
much movement, which is caused by grip available from the tyres. I am conscious that
making these changes will yes, improve the car, but also may make the car too fast, with
too much grip, so maybe making a change to decrease the front and rear aero could be
an option, as I do believe that we may have too much downforce and not enough
grip/bite from the tyres.
R6
General Balance
So this tyre in comparison to CR2 Lo is very similar in some respects, but also slightly different
in others, which bring both good and bad points. Firstly, as I mentioned in the FFB part of
this blog, the weird characteristic that R6 creates, makes extracting the proper feeling out
of the car very difficult, but is something for us to work on. This tyre seems to produce a lot
more base foundation grip, where the car seems more solid, more planted and less
aggressive in comparison to the CR2 Lo. This brings good and bad aspects, the good
being that traction is improved, as well as lateral stability, which makes the rear of the car
feel more planted and nicer. The bad aspects being the lack of straight line speed in
comparison to CR2 Lo, as well as less overall aggression on turn-in through high and
medium speed-corners, but the same lack of mid-corner hold through both corner speeds
and the same lack of entry and mid-corner bite/hold through slow-speed.
With the feeling of increased grip level foundation, the car feels a little slower and a lot
tighter in terms of acceleration and movement, which means that the car does not feel as
‘free’ as it feels when using the CR2 Lo tyre. As speed is lower, braking feels better in terms
of stopping power, but this is very minor and is purely down to the lack of top speed in
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comparison. Traction is better, but with the same instability on the outside of the rear tyre
under throttle application and the same instability during trail braking.
Overall, it has been a great improvement in comparison to the previous build we had for
this car and it shows that AJ’s theory worked. The change in chassis behavior has made a
massive difference with no more ‘3 wheeling’. The main issues I feel we need to look into
are FFB behavior for both tyres, which I am sure AJ has a solution for, to increase front tyre
bite under braking and through mid-corner and especially through slow speed corners.
Everything else I have mentioned I believe can come after we increase front grip, as the
rest of the car in terms of chassis and tyre behavior is not far away. I do not want to pick a
tyre out of these two and say which one is best, as R6 is at a very early stage, but I would
say that the characteristics of R6 with more lateral grip and traction should be mixed into
CR2 Lo, but to still feel as ‘free’ as CR2 Lo
I hope this helps.
Keep pushing, we are nearly there!
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Very good feedback. There is one extra little data point I'd like feedback on for this build.
Try the R6 on a multiplier of 1.0. My guess is that the main weirdness might go away with
that, due to how the FFB default is setup (using a lot of what is called Relative Adjust, which
can cause over light feeling when you saturate).
Other than that I think the R6 will need a simple balance change towards front grip, and
that free-ness you want will come from that. Also, the R6 will get a reduction in rolling
resistance.
What I am thinking is that the CR2 lo tires may need some grooming of load sensitivity, as
the shifting balance at different speeds implies the load sensitivity is maybe high for this
car.
So from here I'll try to both free up R6, and stabilize balance on CR2 lo, and see if we can
approach the target from both sides.
Thanks.
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SEPTEMBER 2014
Ben Collins:
Project cars Sept 1st 2014
Stage 1 of testing complete and I think the writing is on the wall that some outstanding
development has been going on during the summer. I’ve started with the Formula B and
Mercedes DTM Coupe which make superb benchmarks for the rest of my testing runs this
week.
FORMULA B
CR2 Tyre
Handling is absolutely amazing
Starting with the positives; with side notes to put them in context
Braking response and driveability on the limit is incredible - braking deep and wrestling with
lock ups is fantastic and lifelike.
*My settings are at the extreme end to achieve this balance - with 100% brake pressure
and 70% front brake bias. Anything less and I don't feel the car stops quickly enough
initially.
*I have a slight issue with rear locking on turn in at the end of heavy braking (this has been
a persistent characteristic and set up changes don't really seem to fix it)
Turn in - it's mega! I moaned a lot earlier in the year about positive turn in, and now my
heart is in my mouth when I turn the steering wheel, as it should be when you commit to a
high entry speed. The only minor issue I have is per the comment above re braking late
and snagging a rear tyre on initial entry, which causes me the occasional rotation but I
have to say that I could just about live with it – keeps me honest.
Mid corner - feels good, there’s lots of feel and the car squats on acceleration.
Traction – YES! To me it feels like you can properly drive the car on the throttle, meaning
that if the car gets a little sideways on entry you can pop the gas to get the rear to squat,
put weight rearwards and get into the apex without spinning. Then on the exit you can
gradually increase the throttle and the car responds but gently slipping into yaw - or
oversteer.
*At times I get caught out, but the car doesn't spin on me - there's enough grip in the slide
to survive, albeit with stained y fronts. She could be made a little easier on the drive in
terms of grip when sideways, but if you locked this tyre down today it would have my
blessing.
Summary: It's a rush driving the CR2. The car responds well over bumps and is in tune with
the driver’s inputs. The only fine-tuning I would like is regards the turn in stability after heavy
braking - which only seems to affect certain corners (especially turn 1 at Imola) and if we
can continue the incredible work on traction / exit from corner stability. But this is super
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close.
FFB force feedback - the only other thing I noticed was that the steering wheel was set with
maximum power steering assist - at least that's how it felt. It's super light with no feeling. I
couldn't care less once I was driving because the handling was superb, however the
steering wheel force would make a lovely feature. I ran time trial mode and when the
computer has control of the wheel it goes heavy and resists you before handing over
control - that level of resistance is about right for normal driving! It should only go light when
you hit water, oil, or suddenly lose grip in the middle of the corner.
CR2 lo
The low grip version of the CR2 exposes and exaggerates the minor weaknesses
mentioned above. Being honest, I don't like it
Mid corner - there's less front grip so the car understeers, but if you hustle it or the car shifts
its weight around over some bumps/camber then you can slip into oversteer and suddenly
spin. This makes it feel unpredictable
Traction - on power there's a lack of support from the car and on a scale of ten, 10 being
perfect progressive slide on traction, the CR2 standard tyre is 8 and this tyre is 5 - once you
slip sideways there's no grip to support you
Turn in - the small issue of entry o/steer after heavy braking I have on the cr2 standard is
accentuated big time on the Lo and takes some getting used to.
FFB - the force in the wheel is even less than the standard tyre. Same comment as above.
There were also some weird little tugs at the wheel in the mid corner that I couldn't ascribe
to anything in particular
Summary - even driving in the wet doesn't feel like this. The goal of this tyre was to reduce
lap time, which makes sense, but to make it work I believe we will need a higher level of
grip once the car starts sliding, because even driving in the wet doesn't feel like this. The
grip on the CR2 lo falls off too sharply ATM and it feels like a big pendulum force is knocking
you sideways.
This is just a thought - but in terms of lowering lap time i wonder if just reducing some front
grip might be the key because braking feels extremely good, and a little entry understeer
would slow everyone down - but KEEP the high grip rears from the CR2 because they are
so much more predictable.
R6 Tyre
Wow - this is quite a fruity one!
You instantly notice there’s less front grip on corner entry, so the mid corners feel slow and
the car holds you up there.
Looking back at my thoughts above on using understeer to slow the car down this almost
seems to work here and I didn’t have a problem adjusting my braking to address a little less
braking grip. But.. the CR2 standard is so much more fun.
Where this tyre bites you is when you have a lot of steering on (to force the nose in/through
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the apex) and you hit a bump / bit of camber - it shifts the balance of the car and instantly
you start rotating, and it's v hard to control.
The on power traction itself is pretty entertaining and I quite like the wheelspin it generates,
but it's too hard to control when you switch from u/steer to a big dump of oversteer and
start spinning.
Summary - again if the rear was a lot more stable then i think you could live with this level
of u/steer.
FFB: all sorts of strange sensations are going through the steering wheel! I'm glad to see
some kickback, but it happens at the wrong time. There should be a higher force in the
wheel ALL THE TIME - that diminishes when you lose grip in a lock up or during understeer /
oversteer as the wheel goes light. This seems to do the opposite.
Addendum: I Just went back for another go in the CR2 standard tyre.. We can't ditch this
tyre - it's just too good. It's so much fun to drive and so ultra realistic that it would be terrible
to leave it behind.
Mercedes DTM c coupe
Looks and sounds awesome. General handling is mega and it's really fun to drive. The last
time I ran a real one was in 2008 I think and the sim feels really close, possibly with a little
more horsepower than RL but I’m not complaining, and the modern cars do I think have a
little extra punch.
Braking - excellent and it's so helpful to hear the engine note drop when you lock a tyre, it
makes pressure modulation a real joy and very rewarding. Grip level is superb and it all
works really well
Mid corner - some understeer which is about right
Exit / traction - it feels good and it's predictable. When the car starts sliding, it could do with
a tad more grip during the slide (I know.. I'm a broken record) but if that was possible
without affecting the balance then we would have perfection.. Bar one minor issue: kerbs
Kerbing: in GT cars and DTM you go out of your way to find a kerb and put as much of the
car across it as you can legally get away with, and you go faster. Currently the DTM
develops major wheelspin and/or rear instability when you accelerate across a kerb, and it
will spin the car. It really shouldn't do this as these cars normally run them with no problem.
I've noticed that some of our cars hate kerbs and others taken them without a problem.
And my new love child - the CR2 on the Formula B - eats kerbs for breakfast.
Other than the DTM feels great and is super close, lovely job!
More to come. X
Ben Collins:
Project Cars Sept 2
FORMULA C ON R21 TYRE – VIRTUAL PERFECTION!!
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Track: Monterey / Laguna Seca
Awesomeness – 10/10 and other expletives.
I get to drive a lot of incredible cars, and PCARS has been in development for several years
so I’ve nearly worn a hole in the steering wheel.. etc. so I rarely drive with a massive grin on
my face because i'm a spoiled little brat..
If you take the Formula C for a ride, I guarantee that you will grin like a fool. I’m so proud of
this car and its characteristics that, along with the Formula B, it sets the benchmark.
Laguna – the reason I test the less powerful models here is because the straights are shorter
and the twists and turns put more stress on the chassis, which makes it perfect for the FC. It
copes with them so well and the high speed corners are alarmingly realistic.
Imola – is superb for the faster machines because of the bumps, camber changes, heavy
braking zones and range of low / medium / high speed corners.
Back to the amazing Formula C..
Braking – uber responsive. The grip is light so this car really teaches you to brake like a pro.
Turn in – be careful. Turn in is crisp, dynamic, real. The way it should be!
Traction – PERFECT. 10/10. As you creep onto the gas the car makes a graduated transition
from u/steer to o/steer. As with all relatively low downforce single seaters you have to be
careful not to get greedy as you exit corners or else the front will skid wide, and I’ve worn
the virtual floor off my car! The handling dynamics on corner exit are absolutely SPOT ON.
FFB – there’s some weight to the wheel and you can feel the bumps of the track. It’s pretty
awesome and the best FFB I’ve experienced on PCARS so far. Yes – there’s a little room for
improvement – I would love to see the force rumble at first and then reduce during a tyre
lock up, and also for the force to reduce when the front goes into u/steer. If you can build
that feedback into the steering wheel then it will be… 11/10. It would give the driver a
subtle sense of what the chassis is doing brilliantly and perfectly, and a little more
awareness of the fact that the front is skidding before running wide over the exit kerbs.
One VERY MINOR criticism. After heavy braking, the rear is prone to snapping sideways – I
get this especially at Turn 1 and the last corner at Monterey (a bit like in the Formula B on
the CR2 tyre – T1 at Imola). I’m sure this can be adjusted somehow and that the sim is misreading a weight shift because my brake bias is definitely front biased.
I’m really very excited by this tyre and this car – I recommend pulling a sickie and blowing
the afternoon on it. The next cars will have a lot to live up to! Incredible work folks J
(bye bye Forza, bye bye GT5..)
Andrew Weber:
Well, the R6 is the R21 adapted to the FB, so we should be able to get it like the R21 once
we finish adapting for the higher forces.
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The one easy fix would be to go "high grip" in the R6...in other words matching the CR2 grip.
More grip fixes a lot. So if an R21 based tires on CR2 level grip, you might get that R21
"perfection" on the FB.
In any case, I strongly favor keep both tires in the final release, in a performance matched
way so they can run together.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so I have been watching a lot of the promotion videos about Pcars and it looks
fantastic. If I had not been working on this game for nearly 2 years and not had access to
play it, I would literally be bursting to give it a go.
As I have been watching the videos, I thought to myself, I have been part of this project
since the end of 2012 and have not actually given feedback on ALL of the cars in the
game, so I have decided to do an overview on all of the cars we have at present to see
where they are and whether there are any major points we need to deal with before
release.
I plan to cover different classes in different blog posts over time. This post is based on Build
801 and will cover the Prototypes.
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Time Trial
Prototypes
Alpine A450 – LMP2 Slick – Soft
This car feels awesome with a fantastic general balance, which gives off a great feeling
from entry, mid-corner and exit. What I like about this car is that it is not too aggressive on
the front where it wants to turn the rear instantly, but is quite calm to where it has great
initial turn-in with a little laziness that then relies on the downforce of the front to get the
front-end to tuck in just when you need it. Traction is really great with the driver having to
modulate when pushing to the limit and still have a strong amount of traction that gives
confidence. The only part of the balance I felt I was struggling with was the rear through
medium-speed corners to where the rear starts to rotate at mid-corner as it starts to go
light. This of course is controllable, but is what I feel takes a bit of consistency away, as
correcting the rear through mid-corner and sometimes having to lift causes inconsistency.
This all can be improved with refining car setup, but the rear rotation, together with the
lack of grip over kerbs makes it quite difficult as most of the time it is the kerbs that cause
the rear to rotate.
Audi R18 TDI – LMP1 Slick – Soft
Ok so the general balance of this car feels very similar to the Alpine in terms of the chassis
feeling planted, which gives you great confidence of the car sitting when on the limit. The
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front-end feels very similar to the Alpine with great turn-in but with slight laziness that makes
the front manageable, which keeps the rest of the car balanced on entry. Mid-corner feels
very strong, with a lot of stability through high-speed and slow-speed corners. Braking
pressure by default I felt was set too high, as realistic initial ‘brake pedal hit’ causes instant
lockup and instability. Once I adjusted brake pressure, the feeling under braking was great,
but this all comes down to personal preference.
The default setup when on the limit feels very lazy on the front with the front tyres not
working hard enough to where they rely on the downforce of the car too much on entry
and during mid-corner, which causes unnecessary understeer. I made changes to the front
springs, ride-height and toe-angle to where the front reacts a lot better in comparison to
before, where initial entry and mid-corner hold has improved a lot and has made no
change to the rear stability of the car. I would make the same sort of changes for the
default setup to make the car a little better straight out of the box.
Rear traction to me seemed very odd, as traction levels differed from corner to corner:
Turn 4 – lack of traction during mid-corner/exit when the outside of the rear tyre is used,
causing a snap oversteer and wheel-spin.
Turn 7 – the same sort of corner speed as turn 4 but with a lot more traction and no
instability on the outside of the rear tyre.
Turn 10 – Great traction out of slow-speed, with a hint of wheel-spin during shifting, which
shows great grip and traction in the middle of the rear tyre.
Turn 12 – same issue as turn 4 with a lot of instability and lack of traction on acceleration as
the outside of the rear tyre is under load.
Turn 16 – this corner is different to the others, with the rear snapping on power during entry,
where the rear tyre seems to lose grip suddenly as it begins to load up on the outside.
From the feelings I am getting from this tyre, I would suggest increasing the rear grip on the
outside of the tyre, as there is not enough traction or rear stability as it begins to load up,
which causes instability, inconsistency and takes away driver confidence when at the limit.
Default cockpit view/Drivers seat needs to be lowered, as it is too high without you
adjusting it.
Caterham SP 300R – LMP3 Slick
As I work my way through these prototypes, I think this car is the best and most enjoyable
at the moment. The general balance of this car is great, it is the most consistent car for me
so far, with the car being predictable with great initial turn-in, which is not overly
aggressive, a lot of stability during mid-corner and great traction on exit. Through highspeed, the car is very well balanced on entry with a little rotation at mid-corner which
helps the front with a lot of stability at the rear, which allows you to push to the limit. Slowspeed has great turn-in ability also with a slight push but a good level of front bite that
makes the driver feel the front tyre working. Rear stability and traction is no issue at all with
this car/ tyre, with the car hopping and skipping during medium-speed and high speed
corners when on the limit, together with a strong amount of traction during acceleration
with a lot of stability and grip on the outside of the rear tyre when under load. With the
default setup, I think the brake bias is too far rearwards and needs to be moved forward a
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little to improve braking stability, as the rear locking causes the car to rotate and snap
sometimes. This car is the most consistent so far from lap to lap with no odd movements or
crazy snaps, but is controllable during moments, and slides. Love it!
Marek RP 219D LMP2 – LMP2 Slick - Soft
This car is another great car to drive, the behaviour and balance is very similar to the
Caterham LMP3 car, which means that it does not suffer from the rear stability or traction
issues that the Alpine LMP2 and the Audi R18 suffer with. This car is about as stable as they
come, which is a good thing as you are able to play around with the setup and dial out or
dial in more grip/ downforce if you need it. Again I found this car very solid on initial entry,
but as you begin to push harder, the front is not strong enough to where it just begins to
understeer. I made the same changes as I did with the Audi R18, as the behaviour and
issues was the same where I instantly found 1 second due to the changes. This car has so
much grip all round that I found myself having to take it away with downforce but then
using more mechanical grip to keep the same level of performance. Under braking, the
car locks up very easily, but adjusting brake pressure and brake bias balances the car
nicely.
Mid-corner through medium and high-speed corners is great, but the front does begin to
push as you increase the tyre load, but adding more camber improved this instantly to
where the car still has that little bit of push and understeer but has the grip to deal with the
high corner-speed and tyre load. Rear stability is as to be expected, with the rear moving
under braking, but giving a strong amount of grip on entry and during mid-corner, with
traction being great on exit, where you are able to get on the power early with a little
initial instability and wheel spin, but this is controllable and adds to the feeling of being on
the limit. This for me is the most consistent LMP2 car so far as I work my way through the
Prototypes, the default setup needs improving slightly, but being on the limit with this car
feels awesome.
Marek RP 339H LMP1 – LMP1 Slick – Soft
This car feels pretty awesome to me, it feels a lot more balanced and controllable in
comparison to the Audi R18, which feels very aggressive on power, with more rear
instability and less traction which is slower. This car on the other hand is solid, the general
balance feels a lot tighter in comparison to the Audi R18, with the rear feeling a lot more
planted over bumps, on entry, during mid-corner and exit. The rear traction issue that is
present on the Audi R18 is a lot less noticeable on this car due to the rear sitting and
squatting better, but still has a tendency to snap unrealistically when the outside of the rear
tyre is under load.
To me it seems that the default setup for most of these Prototypes are near enough the
same, as they all give off the same sort of feeling, which means that making the same
changes to this car like I did to the Audi R18 worked a treat. All the way through the
chassis, the car feels great, braking is very realistic with movements that are controllable,
initial entry is strong with a little push at mid-corner, but this is backed up by a lot of rear
stability and downforce, which makes medium and high-speed corners an absolute
pleasure to go through on the limit. What I like about this car is the fact that you can push it
hard and it will not punish you in an unrealistic way, but will move and punish you if you use
the wrong technique, line etc. The only characteristic I would look into is the rear tyres in
terms of the grip they produce, as it seems to be the same problem with the Audi R18 but
with less of an affect due to the balance of this car being better.
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Nissan Oreca 03 – LMP2 Slick - Soft
This car is at a very good level, it feels very similar to the Alpine LMP2, with similar
characteristics in terms of balance and behaviour but with better rear stability. This car is
very consistent on the limit, it is predictable with movements, controllable under big
moments but requires thought and skill to stay at the limit without making mistakes, which is
good. Initial entry is strong as to be expected, with great stability at mid-corner but with
small amounts of oversteer as the rear tyres load up. In terms of exit, the car is very similar to
the Alpine as I said, with strong traction out of slow-speed corners, but with quite a bit of
rear instability on power through medium-speed corners as the outside of the rear tyre is
under load. This has pros and cons, the pro being that this keeps you on your toes to
modulate the throttle and gain as much traction as possible whilst on the limit, but the con
is that it sometimes makes the car react in an unrealistic way to where it feels like you have
just hit a ‘wet patch’ on the circuit, as the car snaps into oversteer, with no way of
correction. This usually happens during medium speed corners, to which traction should
not be an issue and instability would only be minimal. All being said, it is a great car to
drive.
Palmer Jaguar JPLM
Ok so this car I feel lacks in aggression, it feels completely different in terms of sense of
speed in comparison to real life, where the car feels fast, with a lot of aggression under
braking and through change of direction. At the moment, I feel this car has a very nice
balance, with great stability and traction, but not enough aggression on the brakes and on
direction change. The car feels a little too stable and tight where the car does not release
on power, or have any rear rotation through mid-corner.
With my experience with this car, it is very pointy and aggressive, but has great rear
stability, but does have the tendency to ‘bobble’/ ‘bounce’ which causes slight oversteer
when on the limit. This is what makes the car feel aggressive, as direction change is strong,
with movements under acceleration, movements through high-speed but with the right
amount of stability to keep you at the limit. At the moment, everything feels a little docile
to me, with the car feeling solid in terms of balance, but with no character or aggression
that makes you feel like you are driving at the limit. Stopping power and direction change
needs to be more instant and sudden, with less traction and rear stability that makes the
driver work to get to, and stay at the limit.
FC - R21
This tyre feels pretty decent with this car with strong stability under braking and good initial
entry bite from the front. Through mid-corner I feel the car has a change in balance, which
is quite dramatic. As I said, initial turn in is great, but as you get to mid-corner, the rear
snaps/ rotates all of a sudden, which feels very odd as it acts like the rear has a mind of its
own. The weird feeling I feel is caused by the characteristics of the rear tyres, as they feel
like they ‘drop off’ in terms of grip level under a certain load. What makes the feeling even
more weird is the fact that the rear snaps and rotates at mid-corner, but then squats and
sits to where it immediately corrects the snap automatically. This all makes the rear feel
very odd and gives off an unrealistic type of behaviour.
LMP3 Slick
This tyre I feel is very similar to the FC - R21 with regard to general behaviour, it has more
front bite, which makes entry a little more instant and aggressive, with mid-corner stability
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and grip feeling natural, with no weird snap rotation like with the FC – R21. Rear traction
and stability feels very similar which allows you to apply throttle really early on exit with no
movement or ‘squirm’, which is why I feel it needs to be loosened off a little. The strongest
characteristic with this tyre compared to the FC – R21 is the front bite/grip, with the tyre
feeling very positive through mid-corner of slow-speed, which helps the car rotate for early
throttle application on exit. The mid-corner hold of the front tyre is what I think also sets it
apart, as you are able to carry more corner speed through the apex due to more grip
available under load. Out of the 2 tyres, this tyre is definitely the better one in my opinion,
but a few characteristics should change as mentioned above to improve the car a little bit
more. Other than that, it is a strong, consistent and enjoyable car to drive.
RWD P20 LMP2 – LMP2 Slick - Soft
Firstly, the cockpit of this car looks awesome with the red/orange backlight to the Motec
dash and the low default driver seating position that really makes you feel like you are
sitting in the car. I really like the movement and reaction of the car within the cockpit,
where you can see the chassis stiffness and behaviour when going over kerbs and bumps
etc. It is an awesome car to drive, it feels completely planted with great traction and rear
stability, with the front working nicely at default setup.
Braking feels really nice and plays a big part with this car, so making sure you get the
correct balance under braking is very important. This car still has the little rear instability
snap on power issue that the other LMP2 cars have, so I still think a little bit more grip on the
outside of the rear tyres under power would be a nice step to tighten it up a little. Preempting the slide/movement of the rear is very controllable when the rear goes light,
which is a massive step forward to what we had a couple of months back. I would work on
the default setup a little more to make the car more positive on the front, because the
changes I make from default can find around 1.5 to 2 seconds and we do not want the
sim-racers who don’t think about setup to be too far away, but that is just my opinion. The
car is just awesome!
RWD P30 LMP1 – LMP1 Slick – Soft
The sound of this car is amazing; it really makes you feel like you are driving a top end,
professional LMP1 race car. It feels very similar to the LMP2 version of this car, which is to be
expected, with the same sort of chassis behaviour and balance, with a load of lateral grip.
Braking is as strong as ever, with the initial ‘hit’ of the brake pedal really taking the speed
out of the car to where you then have to modulate to control locking etc. To get the front
downforce set correctly for initial turn in and also to limit drag, is very important with this
car, with a lot of time being made with lower downforce settings if you are able to set the
car up well mechanically. Rear stability is fantastic during mid corner and exit, which allows
you to push harder and harder to find the limit.
Once you are at the limit and you go over it, the car does not react unrealistically and
‘drop off’ or ‘spit you off’ it will stay planted and positive, but you will just end up going
slower due to over-driving. The only part of this car that I did not like too much was the
‘lag’ that it has on power, where the power delivery does not seem as instant as the LMP2
or other LMP1 cars, which on one hand, helps with traction, but on the other, limits throttle
control, as there is a little delay.
Radical SR8-RX – Radical Slick
This car is very nicely balanced, the car is always moving but is very predictable to where
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you can control the car at the limit and know what it is going to do. This car is sort of what I
want from the Palmer Jaguar JPLM, as with this car you have to properly drive it. It is a bit
loose at the rear, which needs adjusting in setup for my personal preference, but the way
the rear floats around with the tyres giving just enough lateral support is great. Traction I
feel is just at the right level where it requires good modulation and will ‘spit you off’ if you
go over the top, but the grip available is just about right. The rear balance is very important
with this car, with great stability through medium-speed corners but with quite a bit of
instability through high-speed on power. This is controllable, which is great and shows that
the transition of grip is near enough spot-on. On default setup, the rear is set a little too
loose, with the brake bias set a slightly too far to the rear in my opinion.
The only characteristic that I feel is not as strong as the rest of the car is the mid-corner
understeer at slow-speed, where the front struggles to hold after the initial entry phase. This
is not a big issue at all as I am adjusting this through setup and trying to get the front
exactly where I want it, but this was the only characteristic that I felt was not as strong as
the rest of the car. This car overall is really enjoyable to drive and really makes you feel like
you are driving on the limit, the grip available is just about perfect with the driver having to
work whilst at the limit but can drive confidently whist at the limit, which is just what you
need.
Setup Change
So after making a change of lowering the front ride height, the slow-speed understeer has
been corrected, with the front now holding and rotating the rear slightly more, which helps
with getting the car to the apex, which places you in a much better position for exit.
Radical SR3-RS – Radical Slick
This car is really good. Compared to the Radical RX it is quite different. The default setup for
this car I feel is pretty far off, with the car set for no positivity on the front at all with major
toe-out, which causes a lot of laziness on initial turn-in and through high-speed corners. This
car feels a lot more docile compared to the Radical RX, but the good thing about this car
is that you can set it up to be aggressive, where I have found it has gained massive frontend positivity through all corner speeds by doing so. The car is mega on the brakes, with
the sense of speed really dropping, which makes you feel like you have really ‘stamped’
hard on the pedal to get it stopped. This car is all about keeping minimum speed as high
as possible due to the engine braking being so strong, which pulls speed out of the car
quite a bit. After making the changes that I made to the setup, the car become very
strong on entry, with a little less stability at the rear to help with rotation and to let the car
release on exit, with the mid-corner hold from the front and traction on exit feeling
awesome. This is a great car to drive, little things such as, the sense of speed reduction
under brakes is very positive, as this gives you a proper ‘in-car’ feeling that you get in real
life, which is what I feel the Palmer Jaguar JPLM lacks at the moment.
FC Slick – R21
So this tyre on this car I feel does not do the balance and performance of the car any
justice, the main characteristic that lets the tyre down is the lack of front entry bite in
comparison to the Radical Slick, where there is less aggression and positivity through all
corner speeds. Braking and traction is very similar with both of these areas feeling strong,
but as the front does not give enough bite or aggression, it takes away the rotation and
aggression of the rear through the corner. A big positive I feel with this car using this tyre, is
that the ‘drop off’ feeling at mid-corner, which I was experiencing with the Palmer Jaguar
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JPLM is not as prominent and less strong with this car, which is still present, but on a much
smaller scale.
Mercedes-Benz – Sauber C9 – Group C Slick
Now this car is really good fun, the power it has is phenomenal, which is great to be able to
feel in the game. What I like about this car is that it feels ‘Raw’, just pure engine, loud noises
and pure power, which takes a lot of driver skill, throttle modulation, smoother steering
inputs etc. to get the best out of it. The balance is very nice, braking is strong and stable,
with the right amount of front entry bite and a great amount of rear stability through midcorner. In terms of ‘on-throttle’ behaviour, it feels a little bit like the Radical SR8-RX, where
the rear moves around under power, where it requires modulation that will ‘punish’ you if
you get it wrong, but will have just enough lateral grip/stability to keep you at the limit of
the tyre confidently. I really enjoy driving this car, as it really shows that the detail we have
in the physics of this game means that you have to adopt a different driving style for near
enough every car in this game, which shows the quality of our cars and how the different
types of cars affect the driver completely.
Side Note
So today I have been told that I am allowed to announce what I have been working on
behind the scenes, which is that I have been working with Fanatec on their new CSW V2
wheel, which will be coming out soon. I have been using the pre-production beta wheel
for a couple of weeks with Project Cars to develop the correct FFB we need with this type
of wheel when it comes out. AJ and myself are working together to get this right and so it
will take a little more work, but the difference between the V1 wheel and the V2 wheel is
mega.
Overall, the cars in this blog post are incredible, how far we have come is unbelievable
and it is an absolute pleasure to be a part of this fantastic project.
I hope my feedback helps.
Thanks guys.
Nic
Casey Ringley:
Epic report, Nic. J Very pleased to see your thoughts on most of these cars line up with my
own. Gives good confidence going into the final phase here. I made a few changes to the
LMP1 and LMP2 cars yesterday and one of those was to improve the feeling of the rear
tires when getting on power during corner exits. The default setups all had some changes,
but this is mostly to get them working well out of the box on a PS4/XB1 gamepad so will
probably be a bit away from what you'll prefer on the CSW. The range is all still in there for
everyone to find their perfect setup. Will be hitting the LMP3 cars very soon and will take
these notes into account.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
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Ok so this post is not like my previous post from last week, which was based on the
Prototypes, this post is based on Build 809 and is mainly for AJ, as he has asked me to work
on the R7 tyre, which is available for the Formula B.
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Time Trial
Formula B
So as you can see from my previous post HERE regarding my thoughts on what tyre I feel
we should work on, I decided to do a back-to-back test on the CR2 Standard Tyre and the
R7 tyre, as I believe that using the CR2 Standard tyre as the base tyre and then
implementing parts of the R7 tyre will put the Formula B in the correct direction.
CR2 Standard Tyre
As you can see from my reasons of wanting to use this tyre as the base foundation, I feel
this tyre is very strong. Although I find it strong, I also feel that the level of strength from this
tyre also acts as a weakness to where the tyre is almost too good.
Strengths
The most impressive and most noticeable characteristic with this tyre is the aggression it
gives off, which I feel is great. Initial turn-in is instant and very strong, which also helps with
change of direction and adds to the realism factor. Braking is positive with realistic locking
on the unloaded tyre during the braking phase, which is manageable and controllable
and comes down to driver technique and ability for maximisation. High-speed entry and
mid-corner is also very strong, with initial turn-in being instant with the tendency of push/
understeer at the apex of the corner, which replicates less sufficient downforce in
comparison to the likes of the Formula A.
Weaknesses/changes
So this paragraph is not aimed at weaknesses as such, as what you will see is
characteristics that are very positive, but from my thoughts, I feel that the strengths are also
what I feel hinder the realism of the car.
Traction on exit I feel is slightly too strong, with the grip of the CR2 lo tyre feeling more
realistic due to the work load and modulation the driver has to put in to maximise corner
exit. With the CR2 Standard, it seems a little too easy to ‘plant your foot’ on the throttle and
get away with it without any need for modulation or correction. With the CR2 lo tyre, it
would bite you if pushed over the limit on throttle application, where the CR2 Standard tyre
feels too forgiving.
Slow-speed mid-corner seems to have too much grip to where the aggression of the tyre
on initial entry pulls the speed out of the car too quickly. This may seem positive to you, as it
does to me, but what this allows for is unrealistic entry speeds; to where you can carry a lot
of speed into the heart of the corner and rely on the grip of the tyres to slow the car down
for you when applying steering lock. It almost feels like the front of the car is on rails, where
through slow-speed, initially the car starts to understeer at mid-corner, but then suddenly
hooks up, which means you can get away with incorrect techniques through slow speed
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corners.
Although in the paragraph above I mentioned that the initial entry and aggression of the
front tyre was good through high speed, I also feel that, it provides too much positivity to
the front end to where Turn 3 is flat, where formula’s such as, GP2 and Superleague
Formula are taken with a lift. This to me shows the we have too much grip all round and
would suggest decreasing the level of front and rear grip slightly to give more realistic
corner speeds and more realistic car behaviour on power.
Another characteristic I found unrealistic when at the limit with this car was behaviour
under heavy braking towards the end of the braking phase. What I noticed/felt was that,
the initial hit of the brake pedal and reaction of the car in terms of deceleration is great,
but rear locking would then create and unrealistic movement from the car to where
instead of the car locking and rotating, which causes instability and a need of correction,
the rear will move/rotate, but only slightly to where the front of the car will immediately pull
the car straight again. This is what I call the ‘rope pulling’ affect, which has been known for
a while and gives me an indication that the overall foundation of this car is too grippy to
where the grip level it produces gets you out of situations unrealistically to the point where
you can use unrealistic movements to your advantage to help the car to turn etc.
The last interesting characteristic I noticed/felt was the general chassis behaviour and
balance. Although the general feeling and balance of the chassis is good, I found/felt that
the chassis has a tendency to ‘bounce’ a lot over bumps or after using kerbs to the point
where the chassis does not just hit a kerb and then squat into place, instead it hits a kerb,
squats and then bounces a couple of times in quick succession which then creates
traction instability and sometimes an uncontrollable snap as you already apply the throttle,
expecting the car to grip up and squat, but the added bounce of the chassis means the
wheels spin in mid-air and as they hit the track surface, they do not grip up/bite into the
track surface enough, which causes the snap. This is very difficult to explain in writing, but if
you were to use the kerbs through turns 7,8 and 14,15, you will see the bounce and
instability caused.
R7 Tyre
Ok so having driven this tyre immediately after the CR2 Standard tyre, this tyre to me feels
more natural and more realistic than the CR2 Standard tyre. What is very noticeable with
this tyre is the fact that the performance is not reliable on the aggression and grip the tyre
gives and instead uses more natural characteristics from the mechanical balance to give
the car its performance. With the CR2 Standard tyre, it seemes that the aggression and
strength of the tyre took away the natural feeling and balance of the car, as it felt like you
were driving by the grip the tyre creates and not the grip that the balance of the car has
given. Initial braking feels the same as the CR2 Standard, but with no weird ‘rope pulling’
affect that makes the car feel unrealistic, which is a great positive. Traction is a little less
than the CR2 Standard, but I still feel is a little too strong, as throttle application is too easy. I
would recommend decreasing the grip/traction in the middle of the rear tyre, but aim to
keep the lateral stability and support of the rear tyre the same.
This tyre seems to take another lap or so to ‘come in’ (get to the optimum level of grip) in
comparison to the CR2 Standard tyre, but this is only noticeable at the front of the car as
the front-end becomes more positive. Turn 3 is still flat once the tyres are at optimum
working temperature, but the behaviour through medium and slow speed corners is great,
so I would not want to take too much grip away from the front tyre to improve the realism
of high speed mid-corner grip. If there is a way where we can decrease high-speed grip
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but keep the medium and slow-speed entry and mid-corner grip the same, then this would
be great to try, but otherwise I would leave it as it is. This tyre makes the chassis balance
and behaviour a lot more realistic, with the chassis feeling a lot stiffer over bumps and
kerbs and is a much better step in the right direction in this regard.
With regards to improvements, other than having a look at whether we can take away
some high-speed grip/aggression, the only area I would like to improve is the initial entry
aggression during slow-speed corners, where currently, the tyres seem to struggle with
laziness at slow-speed entry and change of direction. I would only try to increase this
slightly to make the front-end more ‘pointy’, which is where the CR2 Standard tyre is
stronger.
So to be completely honest, after driving both tyre revisions for the past 2 days, my decision
on what tyre is strongest has changed, even as you work your way through this post. The
CR2 Standard tyre is for sure the fastest and most aggressive, but from where I am sitting,
the R7 tyre is most realistic, but with adjustments to slow-speed initial entry/direction
change, a decrease in traction and high-speed aggression and grip all needing to be
looked at for improvement. The CR2 Standard tyre is around 2 seconds faster than the R7
tyre, where the R7 tyre to me gives a more believable lap time and performance.
Only a few more changes needed and we are there!
I hope this helps!
Thanks
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback as usual. I do think I can get the necessary tweaks on the R7, for
both the high speed grip reduction (without lower speed side effects) and low speed turn
in.
Ben Collins:
PROJECT CARS SEPT 15 - Broad Features Test / Wet Weather and General Comments
This week I’ve been finishing off my batch of testing with some of the models Casey and
the team have been focusing on, and it’s great to see the new sparkle really spreading
across the platform now.
The drivability is evident across the board with a blend of unique characteristics that define
one model from the next. It’s great to see that the base handling is rock solid, and that we
are looking at nuances now to enable the driver to really sense the reality.
I ran all models on the default tyre with a few exceptions that I’ve marked out. So, THIS TEST
LOOKS AT A BROAD SPECTRUM OF CARS AND EXAMINES WET WEATHER DRIVING.
Starting with a car that absolutely hits the mark in terms of character:
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Ford Mustang Cobra Trans Am
Really cool. This car has a lovely balance and forces you to change gear manually which
is highly entertaining, because if you fudge up your heel-and-toe technique you soon face
backwards as a result.
There's a darty turn in and forgiving slip angle when you skid the rears mid corner, which is
typical of this style of racer and the cross ply tyres it runs on. Great braking feel and grip so
this is a winner in my book, and the engine note is Yee ha.
The only question I heard myself asking was whether the motor deserved more power
because exiting low speed corners my foot reached the carpet quicker than I expected...
Lotus 72D
Scorching engine note - superb
Handling has come on superbly. However, when the rear brakes away I feel that it's too
lazy and there's not enough indication from tyre noise or the FFB that it's about to happen.
Once sliding the grip level is very low and it makes for some difficult tank slapping, or
pendulum oscillations as I read somewhere recently.
I think this car has great potential, but the tyres should hop, skip, squeal and then jump
sideways more than they currently do. The slide just feels a bit too lazy – I realise this is
aimed at replicating the gradual break away that is notable of the era, but in my view that
should be realized in the ease with which the driver can cope with the slide when it occurs,
as opposed to a more constant feeling of yaw.
Aston Martin GT3
Excellent. This is a class I know well since I’m racing in the category this year, and having
driven this particular car I felt a real affinity with the PCARS version
Braking grip is excellent and the pedal is controllable. Had a lot of fun on the brakes with
this one and feel this part is bang on, with quite high foot pressure required to achieve a
lock up.
The handling balance has too much understeer, in particular in medium speed corners,
and when accelerating through corners at the apex it feels wooden.
I went softer on the front end to see what happened and was surprised by how much it
affected the car. The turn in to low and medium speed corners was markedly more
aggressive, and quite fun, but it really affected traction as well and the car developed
wheelspin which felt like it was coming from the inside rear tyre - and that's unrealistic given
the limited slip differential. I would not have expected such a big move in handling from
the changes I made.
Despite the changes, the understeer persisted so my feeling is that the front tyre lacks
enough grip to support the car in medium speed corners, and it would benefit from a little
more bite. Once we have that I suspect we can really hustle this car around and it will be
amazing. Great work here!
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Other than that this car was mega and responsive to drive. It felt a tad underpowered out
of slow corners but in general it was excellent.
Mclaren F1
Ok..
I have to be honest.. This one is off the mark at the moment so please excuse the honest
feedback.
On acceleration the car rolls too much and squirms to signify when the car is breaking
traction. I sympathise with where this is coming from because there is more body roll in the
old F1 than in modern adversaries, but I think we should limit this effect to graphics as
opposed to handling, because we have way too much of it.
When the V12 engine overcomes the tyre grip, you get wheelspin. The car doesn't squirm
the way ours does at the moment – in real life you hear a violent shriek of rpm and you
know damn well what you did wrong. The car punishes with a sudden drop in traction and
wags it's tail. You don't get the elongated squirm we currently have, especially at low /
medium speed.
Once at high speed the FFB starts to firm up which is ironic because in real life the car does
the opposite! You start out with quite heavy but responsive steering so that you can really
feel the road, and then as you pile on the speed the car feels lighter in your hands and you
sense some of that body roll coming into play.
Another feature of our sim at high speed is huge aero understeer, making it very hard to
pilot the car through even a modest curve on a straight. The front walks you onto the grass
and you crash heavily into the wall. I definitely feel that we need more high speed grip
than we currently have, combined with the sense of body roll that tells you not to screw
around with the steering or you'll be setting an appointment with the grim reaper.
So for me - the cars too soft, we need to flip the FFB around and give this car some more
grip, and more power during acceleration so that the car bites you by breaking traction,
rather than slopping slowly sideways.
Le Mans prototypes
AUDI LMP1
Default Tyre
Firstly I find the cockpit very constrained because there’s No peripheral view – the A post
feels way too big and the screen wiper too, because you really need to see left and right
to hunt for the apexes on turn in otherwise it's all blind, and we have a better view in real
life because the cabin is optically more rounded.
The Audi seems to be on its own with this by comparison to our other prototypes so I
wonder if this is something we can address? (I tried moving the seat!)
Braking / Brake Pressure
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Clearly there’s been a systemic change in BRAKE PRESSURE which is a major POSITIVE
across the board. Previously I ran all models at close to 100% brake pressure in order to
generate enough stopping power and I ran out of adjustment, so now I’m running
between 75-80% brake pressure and I love the range adjustability we have.
So with the Audi I began with too much locking, backing brake pressure from 90 to 80%
fixed that.
COCKPIT FEEL
Excellent thunks and clunks over bumps in straights and over kerbs, highly realistic. Also love
the way the front wheel arches jolt as you hit kerbs (the Aston gt3 would benefit from more
movement of this kind)
Be great to have more FFB as well to replicate the violent experience in the cockpit when
you smash one of these high downforce beasts over the apex kerbs and hammer them
again on the exit. I can cannot exaggerate how hard the kerbs hit you, but you travel for
several seconds in a blur because your eyes are literally rattling inside their sockets. Be
great to feel even more of that energy in the Sim! Currently the steering force is very light
and could do with being more aggressive/stiffer
I felt the low / medium speed balance was perfect, but I lacked some turn in on high
speed corners. I moved to max front wing and dropped the rear wing off a bit, and
lowered the front ride height which had a positive effect, although I still felt wanting in the
faster section at Imola.. But I'm mightily impressed by this car and think its in great shape.
Overall though it lacks a bit of front end grip at high speed.
RAIN
wet / thunder storm / full wet tyre
Getting up to speed is far too difficult - the grip level is too low generally.
When I last drove in full wet (on the sim) there was standing water that caused the wheels
to spin, but with a higher general level of grip and this was preferable because it enabled
you to get up to speed and moderate throttle depending on any puddles. PREVIOUSLY THE
REALITY OF AQUAPLANE WAS ABSOLUTELY REALISTIC, BUT THIS EFFECT HAS DISAPPEARED.
What we have now is very low grip at low speeds, it's almost like ice or as if the track is
completely flooded. The car snaps sideways too quickly and there's not quite enough front
grip either, and not enough feel in the steering wheel. YES, The steering forces should be
lighter than dry running (which needs to be stiffer) but you should feel the wheel go light
when you understeer.
Once you get up to speed the car has too much grip! So you can drive flat out down the
straights without any concerns over aquaplane, when really that's your primary concern in
these cars. In real life you get a decent level of grip to feel your way around braking areas
and slow corners, then as the speed increases you become obsessed with puddles which
can make the car wheelspin instantly - and I know that we can replicate that with PCARS
because it was doing it during my last rain test.
*It should be the flooding that reduces lap time in the wet, rather than the track losing grip
as it gets wetter.
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Lastly on braking I found that the grip level was fair, but that the car locked its rears
excessively from the outset. I ran my dry balance which meant that I was way too much
front loaded for wet running, and still locked my rears when I pushed a little too hard on
the pedal, when it should have been the fronts that locked.
I hope that my comments make sense and these are based on a lot of wet running in LMP1
with Dunlop, Goodyear and Michelin. Its swings and roundabouts getting the wet weather
right, but it was so nearly perfect a few months ago that you set the bar very high, and I
don’t want to let go of it!!!!!
Alpine lmp2
Reduced brake pressure to 80%, moved bias forwards to 65%
Love the look and feel and the engine is, as ever, crisp and accurate
The last car I ran at Imola was the LMP2 so it's great to re-visit with something that so closely
resembles it.
Handling
The balance of the P2 is pretty good, with a tendency to o/steer a bit too much on turn in.
The car also has an issue when you combine cornering with braking, and it spins quite
easily. This was a problem the PCARS team addressed superbly with the FC and the FB, so I
hope it will filter through to the LMP2 which ultimately should handle in a v similar way. I
adjusted the brake bias and confirmed that the brake & steer issue is handling related.
I also feel that the car is generally too soft - these cars are very stiff to drive and this is
reflected by the way the car encounters bumps and kerbs, the engine note taking a
hammering, and also the hard / boney cornering experience. The P2 has a slightly too easy
conversion into sliding and I would love it if we could make the suspension feel harder and
more aggressive to reflect what it's like to hustle these cars. The ultimate compliment to go
with this would be some fiercer FFB through the steering wheel so that you can feel
everything. As per my comments on the Audi LMP1.
Also as per the LMP1 - it's great to see the wheel arches jolting over kerbs and I really
enjoyed driving this car. I can tell that it will become a personal favourite!
RWD lmp1
Haha
It looks and sounds amazing! The engine tone is demented and you can’t help tickling it
with your toe.
In comparison to the Audi this initially feels more fun to drive and my gut feeling is that this is
because it has more grip in its tyres. I feel I can brake later and get away with more at the
apexes.
At high speed once you exceed that grip level, the grip falls away very quickly and it's
hard to hold on. I suspect that the Dev team are planning to trim back the grip level of this
car and this will be a good thing because the car feels a bit underpowered (or rather over
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tyred) when you exit slow and medium speed corners. There should be more o/steer going
on at the rear end
All the prototypes now have the beautiful transition from u/steer into oversteer at the apex
as you exit the corner and that was a major breakthrough in recent development - that
makes them fantastic fun to drive.
Mercedes Group C sauber
There was only one place to test this car, so I took it to Le Mans. As soon as I got there
though – a thought occurred to me. We should definitely have the option of running the
1980’s Le Mans circuit, the one without the chicanes so that you can take Mulsanne kink at
250mph sideways PLEEEEEEEEAAAASE can we…???
This car would be totally suited to it.
It gallops long straight so quickly because the acceleration is wicked. And the car feels soft
and easy to drive which makes it a ton of fun.
Now for the negatives.. It is a bit too soft and lazy, so if we tightened that up a little I think
we would have an excellent balance and realism.
The only other aspect I would like to address is the power lag – the power comes on too
easily on the sim. The real car has a killer kick from the turbo lag that really launches the car
and can actually develop wheelspin on the gearchange from 3rd to 4th gear if you’re not
careful. Our car is too easy and the power band is too well spread.
Some months back the 98T F1 car had quite an aggressive turbo lag and this characteristic
would be perfect for the Group C car. You have to drive it carefully on power, but in terms
of cornering the ride is quite forgiving.
Go Kart 125cc – it had a glitch so I was unable to run the kart..
Overall: we are in a great place thanks to the hard work of the dev team and the
incredible global collaboration. The pace of change now is mightily impressive and I hope
we can drive a few of the key mods across the line.
1. wet weather handling
2. the soft handling creeping into a few models
3. building some aggression into the graphics & power delivery of other models
4. protecting the awesomeness of our finest players!
Looking forward to seeing some of the team in Texas and proving that we are in fact
human beings. Have a great weekend, and drive ‘em like you stole ‘em. X
Casey Ringley:
Great stuff, as usual. Some notes on the notes below.
Ford Mustang Cobra Trans Am
Typical race driver, always looking for more power. J Ours is at 630hp now, which is
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probably a fair average for Trans-Am back in '97.
Lotus 72D
Got it. I think there are some things we can do with the rear tire, in particular, to get the
skippy grip-slip feeling that is missing. Will put it on my list.
Aston Martin GT3
Good to hear this is feeling close and is responding well to setup changes for you. We've
recently moved the GT3 and LMP default setups to more understeer so they are more
approachable for new players. Part of this was opening up the differential, which is why
you're getting that inside tire slip on power. All adjustable in setup, so maybe try it at these
settings to see if it feels like a more realistic setup for you:
limited slip acceleration: 50%
limited slip deceleration: 75%
limited slip pre-load: 120Nm
McLaren F1
Appreciate the honest feedback. This car has been a tricky one to work on, but we'll keep
going at it.
AUDI LMP1
On the rain tire, can you tell me if that feedback is from today's build 808 or one from over
the weekend? A new rain tire actually went in today for the LMP and GT cars which I think
is a big improvement. Fingers crossed that you just didn't have the new stuff when doing
this particular test. J Give the Formula Rookie or either Radical a try in the rain to compare,
as those have had the newer rain tread in for several days now and are feeling pretty nice
here. We'll talk rain tires/driving more in Texas anyway, for sure. (weather forecast is looking
grim for Friday sessions!)
Mercedes Group C sauber
Old Le Mans would be awesome! One from the 80's and another from the late-60's would
cover most of the race winners we'll have in the game. Might be too much to ask from the
license, but a guy can dream. J
Adding turbo lag is easy. Will make that tweak and increase the range of the dampers to
allow a stiffer setup. The springs have plenty of room to play, but the dampers are a bit soft
by the usual standards on this one.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Pcars European Press Day
So I had an awesome day yesterday at Brands Hatch for the Pcars European Press Day. A
day full of me having interviews and giving demonstrations of the game. Yesterday gave
me my first opportunity to experience Pcars on Xbox and PS4 using gamepad, which I was
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very impressed with. The graphics look great, with Time cycle set to around 4x, which
meant that within 3 laps you were able to cycle from morning to mid-day, afternoon, to
night time, which really showed Pcars in a positive way and was fantastic to experience
the finer details of features such as, 'sun glare' through the windscreen, which made you
'squint' just like you would in real life!
Using the gamepad, I was very impressed by how realistic the car was to control, where I
was able to be precise with my steering and throttle inputs, which meant that you still had
to drive the car realistically using the same technique you would use if you were to use a
steering wheel and pedals. From my past experience of using gamepad on other games in
the past, I felt that the steering was very difficult to control and inaccurate, as the steering
reacted in an 'all or nothing' way, which meant that you could not be smooth with your
inputs and instead would almost go to full lock instantly when entering a corner or in a
straight line.
Whilst playing the Xbox version yesterday, I noticed a little characteristic that I felt was not
realistic in terms of engine sound when accelerating. It is very hard to explain in words, as I
would need to make the actual noises to explain or show you a demonstration, but it is
along the lines of the engine sound and revs being too instant when applying throttle, to
where on initial throttle input from standstill, gives a nice progression in engine note, but as
you get to 3rd gear and above, the progression of the sound has gone and so the revs are
instantly at maximum on acceleration, where the engine sound should still be progressive
no matter what gear of level of revs you are at, as instant revs/ 'all or nothing' is never the
case in a race car. I explained and demonstrated all of this to Darren White in person, so
he should understand what I am trying to say J
I had the chance to use the Oculus Rift for the first time also and I thought it was amazing.
Putting the goggles on made me feel like I was putting my Helmet on and then being able
to look around the car like I would in real life. I personally think it is the future of gaming and
really allowed you to look around at all of the fine detail in the car, from the buttons on the
steering wheel to the stitching on the drivers gloves. Being able to look to one side and
look out of the window or wing mirror was great, with the raindrops on the window
streaming past due to the wind when the car is at speed, all of that detail enhances the
experience of the game in terms of realism, but this is only due to the fact that you can
rotate and move your head like you would in real life.
Overall, all of the press looked very impressed and happy, with SMS and Bandai Namco
putting on a great event. It was great to attend and to show people my passion and
involvement in the game and I am sure we will be receiving some very positive articles
soon.
Thanks guys J
P.S a picture of me using the Oculus Rift!
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
So I decided to do a Video Blog today based on Build 817, which covers the Brands Hatch
GP Circuit in detail.
As mentioned in the video, I will be posting another video, which covers the car, but this
will happen tomorrow as it is taking around 6hrs for me to upload each video to YouTube.
Hope you guys like it J
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7VmnqFuUY8
Real Life Onboard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb-t_eO4t7s
One small thing I noticed in the Real Life onboard, which I did not mention in my video was
the bumps on the rise up to turn one. You will see as I start to move from right to left onto
the racing line, you will see the bumps I am talking about as I start to rise up the hill.
Thanks guys!
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Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey Guys,
So continuing on from yesterdays Video Blog, below is part 2 and covers the Clio Cup Car.
Great job with this car, we just need to work on the finer details to get it where we need it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HvIhEaxyek
Casey Ringley:
Excellent detail, Nic! Sets a great path for what we need to address in future revisions to
the car. Seems like some of the handling stability we found in the new suspension settings
mean a bit of edge can be added back to the tire for a sharper, if slightly less forgiving,
ride and make the whole experience that much more fun. Will let you know when any
changes go in along those lines.
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OCTOBER 2014
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is based on Build 822 and will cover the R7 and R8 tyres that are available
for the Formula A.
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Time Trial
Formula A
Sound
Ok so before I start talking about the tyres that are available for this car and my thoughts
on them, I want to start by covering the engine sound, which I feel needs a bit more work,
as it does not sound very accurate to me. Firstly, the most noticeable inaccurate
characteristic of the sound, as well as the actual set-up of the gear ratios is the increase in
engine revs just before the next gear engages when you upshift, which sounds like you
have put the clutch in just before you select the next gear. The revs should stay the same
during an up-shift, unless the clutch is activated, to where the sound and change in revs
that we have at the moment would be correct, but during any up-shift using a sequential
gearbox, the revs remain the same, as no clutch is needed.
The way I can summarise the general sound of the engine if I was to put it very simply is
that, as you know, the engine sound in the cockpit of the car is much different to the
sound when you are outside of the car. The sound we have in the cockpit of the car has
both the sound of inside the cockpit and outside of the cockpit mixed into one sound,
which sounds inaccurate and not like an F1 car.
Below I have posted 2 videos, one, which is Pcars Formula A and one, which is Lewis in 2013
before the Turbo switch this year.
Real Life
<-Video not available anymore ->
Notice the engine sound being very smooth and crisp.
Downshifts have characteristics themselves, with ‘splutters’ and other detail added,
making the downshift sound, sounding alive.
If you listen carefully, you can hear a little ‘burble’ on upshift, which is a pure characteristic
of an F1 car.
Pcars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRaBKTeoYQk
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Notice the rev increase on up-shift, with the cockpit engine sound, sounding very highpitched with a mix of ‘inside cockpit’ sound and ‘outside cockpit’ sound.
The downshift of the Formula A has no detail with the engine note sounding dead and
sudden.
Outside Cockpit Sound Real Life
Also below is a video I recorded of Lewis this year in Barbados doing a demo in last year’s
2013 F1 car, which will give you more of an idea of the sound being so different outside of
the cockpit in comparison to inside. Notice the detail of the engine sound during the
downshift, with ‘pop’s’, ‘bang’s and ‘splutters’, with the initial sound of the downshift giving
off a very loud and distinctive ‘pop’ sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsSZyYltTGo
DRS
So I used the DRS for the first time today on the Formula A and felt that it works well and is a
great addition and feature to have, but there is a small issue with DRS de-activation and
re-activation. The activation process is not an issue, with the ‘slot’ in the rear wing opening
up on instant request, which is great. What I found is that the DRS de-activates when
brakes are applied, which is what it should do, but then re-activates as soon as you apply
throttle again. The only way to get around this is to make sure you manually de-activate
the DRS before braking/ corner entry to where the DRS will not activate until requested. We
need to take out the ability of the DRS re-activating on throttle application and only allow
the DRS to activate when the ‘button’ is pressed. A small addition to detail I would ask for is
a ‘DRS LED light’ to appear on the steering wheel, to indicate whether DRS is activated or
de-activated, as at the moment, there is no indication on either, so you have no idea
whether the DRS is activated or not.
R7
This tyre I feel is really strong, the most impressive characteristic about this tyre is the
aggression it gives off, which really makes you feel like you are driving and F1 car. The
reason why I say this is, the aggression is in the key areas of what makes an F1 car stand out
from other classes, which is braking and corner speed/aero. In real life, braking is very
important in F1, with brake pressure being a key aspect on not just stopping the car, but it
can determine how the car behaves on entry to the corner. As with Pcars, we are using a
standard ‘Steering wheel & Pedals’ set-up, we are not required to be able to apply ‘120
bar’ of pressure on our initial hit of the brake pedal to get the car stopped and so instead,
we have to replicate the braking, not through the brake pedal, but though the reaction of
the car during the braking phase. With this tyre, I feel we are able to replicate this, with the
tyre being very strong under braking, with the tyre gripping up very well on initial
application of the brakes, which really ‘pulls’ the speed out of the car instantly and gives
you a strong feeling of braking, which is great.
As well as braking, the initial entry bite of the tyres is fantastic, which gives off and instant
feel of direction change, which compliments the aero and aggression of the front end,
which makes the car livelier initially in comparison to lower formulas/cars we have. The
chassis feels nice and stiff, with the car reacting well over bumps when at speed, which is
another positive to take. The grip level in general has completely changed in comparison
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to how this car was when I spoke about it HERE, which is fantastic and shows what progress
we have made.
In terms of changes/improvements, this car and tyre is at a really good level at the
moment to where each change we make is only minor to make the car feel more realistic.
I personally feel that the overall balance of the car is too grippy to where I feel we need to
loosen the rear slightly to allow the rear-end to feel more natural. At the moment, oversteer
is only present on power application and not through balance shifts/changes of the car
etc. where the car is pretty much ‘planted’ everywhere. Areas where I feel there is too
much grip is traction in the middle part of the rear tyre, where there is a lot of traction and
very little instability that makes it too easy to apply throttle instantly without modulation.
There is instability on the outside of the rear tyre, which does require a bit of modulation,
but I think taking a small step in decreasing the traction/grip available in the middle part of
the tyre but to leave the current level of grip on the outside of the rear tyre would be
good. ‘Off throttle’ during slow-speed is very good with regards to entry bite, but has the
car has a tendency to ‘lock’ the rear wheels at the limit, which is good, when this happens,
the rear rotates but then gives off the ‘rope pulling affect’ that instantly pulls the front of
the car straight again, which feels unnatural.
As well as the ‘rope pulling’ affect during slow-speed oversteer, it seems to be present
through any situation of oversteer, to where the grip of the tyres/car does not allow the car
to release into natural oversteer or into a realistic spin, with the only situation of being able
to spin is when the rear snaps on power to where you cannot get it back. One last area in
which I feel we could improve, is the high-speed aggression and downforce, where the
front feels too easy/too strong through high-speed, which means that you do not need to
use much steering lock at all to turn the car through high-speed, as it is so instant. This is
where it gets tough and perhaps a little confusing for you guys to understand what I am
trying to say, as to start with I am saying the aggression of the front end is what makes the
car so good and then I say that the aggression and front end is a little too aggressive in
high-speed. Well all I am saying is that the aggression at high-speed takes away little
realism, as the front is so easy to point with a small amount of steering lock and so I feel we
need to take away a little high-speed aggression but to keep the same aggression
everywhere else.
R8
So this tyre is practically the same as the R7 tyre, but with a less aggressive front-end. In
comparison to the R7, this tyre is around 1.8-2 seconds slower, which is due to the front tyres
being less aggressive during the braking zone, as well as on initial corner entry. This tyre is
interesting, because it is calmer than the R7 through high-speed, which gives off a more
realistic feel where you have to work harder and use more steering lock to get the car to
turn, but is less aggressive everywhere else also, which takes away the strong, hard braking,
instant direction changes and grip that you get with the R7. The front being lazier is what
makes the tyre slower in laptimes in comparison to the R7, as you have to be more patient
and carry less mid-corner speed. This tyre did give off more of a natural ‘brake lock-up’ feel
under heavy braking, where the unloaded tyre would lock slightly, which was not possible
with the R7 unless you made a mistake or had to stop suddenly, but this did not feel as
natural. Overall balance wise, this tyre feels just as strong as the R7 in terms of ‘off throttle’
behaviour and grip, with traction feeling practically the same.
Overall, we have made a massive step forward with this car; it is great to drive and really
gives you a realistic sense of the grip and behaviour of an F1 car. If I was to choose
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between the R7 and R8 tyres, I would go with the R7, as this feels more realistic in terms of
aggression and behaviour, but to add parts of the characteristics that are present in the
front tyres of the R8, as high-speed feels better in comparison, but does lack in the other
areas when it comes to initial entry and direction change etc. The main focus is to make
the rear feel more natural and to try and take away some general grip to minimise/take
away the ‘rope pulling’ affect. This car is very positive in my eyes, but more changes to the
sound, DRS and characteristics of the R7 and R8 tyres would make the experience even
more awesome!
Small note
Today I noticed that the point/location of where you (the driver) take over from the AI in
Time Trial mode needs to be changed, as the current point is in the middle of the last
chicane at Besos GP and the last chicane at Sakitto GP, which takes you off track
immediately.
Hope this helps,
Nic
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the great feedback, as usual.
So it sounds like R9 will be a hybrid of R7 and R8, although this will be slightly tricky, because
R8 is really just a grip reduction of R7, which is the main thing you request. Although this also
includes a signification reduction in grip with inclination (anti-tipping) which we need to
keep. So this means it is really about recapturing some of the aggression of R7 using the R8
base. But not by using the easiest method...which is adding grip. We have to use the more
subtle carcass crafting tools.
Nicolas Hamilton:
AJ,
Let me know when the R22 on the FC is ready and I will hit both the FC and FB in one go
Andrew Weber:
OK. The L49 and L72D are done-ish. I just have to balance out their heating a little better.
Then I'll wrap the FC R22.
Ben Collins:
GENERAL CHIT-CHAT & COUPLE QUESTIONS FOR CASEY
Been enjoying some serious track time lately, first in Texas for the FIA WEC round aboard the
Green Beast and even MEETING with fellow team members in REAL LIFE!
I actually touched Casey Ringley and Andy Tudor.. Contrary to some rumours they are
really out there. Casey isn’t just an eyeball like his Forum Avatar and Andy Tudor, well he’s
real too and seriously wired for Project Cars.
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Met Casey in Texas and Andy at Brands Hatch where we attempted to explain to
journalists how awesome this game is. I think we succeeded. There’s a real sense of
excitement and expectation building now.
And then I took Heloise from Namco Bandai, the Distributor, for a ride around the Indy
circuit in an attempt to turn her green by powersliding a BMW M3 sideways around a wet
circuit. She was ice cool and in Gallic style just sorted of puffed “not bad” on the way into
the pits.. I felt a dejected..
But I was soon cheered up when I put on the Oculus Rift head gear. Until the slight motion
drift turned me a shade of green, but that aside the realism was ridiculous.
When you move your head around you can view everything in the cockpit and I found
myself reaching for the brake bias adjuster instinctively. You want to touch everything. You
can shift your head around just like in a real car and for someone who grew up with an
Atari; this understandably blew my mind.
The resolution on Oculus and the motion of the car needs some work, but given what “we”
have managed in the last couple of years, this could be solved during a lunch break.
I feel like I’m waffling here so I’ll get back to the real work and get stuck into the cars.
Casey great to meet you and thanks for these great notes. I’ve been doing some other
testing but on one point I had a question.
NASCAR
I can’t seem to find the oval anymore.. Has it been hidden?
I took the stock car for a run on a road course and was mightily impressed. There’s plenty
of give, the braking is robust and not too effective which felt perfect and the cornering
feels heavy like the real thing, with strong usable power to make exiting the corner a lot of
fun. It has plenty of roll oversteer in the mid corner if you screw up but without spitting into
the wall. It feels awesome and I would love to hit a speedway with it and report some of
the handling characteristics.
Also I was unable to access wet weather on any of the cars I tested. Gonna reboot to see
if this changes anything.
Everyone I’ve met has been proud to be a part of this project and rightly so – vehicular
feedback to follow shortly!
All the best, Ben
PS if any of you have twitter accounts, keep an eye out for a competition to come and
hang out @ the 007 Museum via @bencollinsstig
Remco van Dijk:
The ovals have been taken out of the game for now because they won't be in the initial
release of the game - no time to polish them before release.
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Regarding wet weather, make sure you use Free Practice instead of Time Trial as the
weather is locked in Time Trial now.
Ben Collins:
This post relates to OULTON PARK, FFB & and the status quo on the OPEN WHEEL Formula
Cars. After this I’m diving back in to wet weather driving and Casey’s check list, using the
FORMULA C as my barometer of awesomeness.
OULTON PARK – full circuit.
Probably the best race track in Britain. This was my first visit on PCARS and long overdue –
the PCARS experience is awesome.
COMMENTS
Auto pilot needs to cut out sooner because it encroaches on the braking area for Lodge
corner and prevents you from "starting" the lap at full bore by braking early and flooring it
for a cracking exit. A common thing for qualifying is to brake very early prior to the final
bend, stack up any traffic behind you (within reason) and get a traction boost as you
open the next lap. Auto Pilot currently prevents this here
BUG ALERT: whilst we are on that subject I’ve noticed that when you RESTART a Time Trial
lap the program often inverts the car on its roof or has some issues.
Too much tyre debris on the racing line esp turn 1 and the last corner (lodge) when the
marbles should be more off line and to the outside of the curve only.
GRAPHICS – circuit realism is superb. You could possibly note some of the concrete around
the apex of Shell Hairpin but otherwise the place is real and the bumps are in the right
place, which is fantastic. Druids Corner, the fast right with the double apex, is exceptionally
true to form and to have mapped an undulating circuit with such accuracy is a real credit
to the game.
FORMULA C @ OULTON
The last time I raced here properly was in Formula 3 and I qualified on the front row. This
(and Macau) is probably the best track to experience an F3 car and the FC is extremely
rewarding as a result, it feels the same. Mostly I’ve been using Laguna Seca to test the FC
because it’s twisty and the straight's not too long, but Oulton is now the place for me
because of the bumps, twists, camber changes and mix of high/medium/low speed turns.
FFB - delighted to see more force in the wheel ALL THE TIME. This is a BIG CHANGE from the
last time I ran the FC and bravo for really pushing the envelope. Suggest everyone tries this
mod asap to feel the force!!
The FFB is a step forward BUT, it's too frenetic. There should be more of a constant load on
the steering wheel that gently rises as the grip increases, esp in corners like Shell hairpin,
and as the car reaches the apex under braking, then that load should fall away a little of
the car skids.
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What we have now is too much chatter and force being applied as a result of general
bumps, and it pulls at the wheel unnecessarily - i think it's good to have a LITTLE noise in the
steering but it shouldn't be fighting you for control. But this is a great breakthrough and I will
assess it in the rain setting next!
Ok.. Wet weather was unavailable and running wets in the dry felt far too grippy so it looks
like I will need to revisit that in Free Practise.
Formula C - Imola
FFB - for some reason there's less wheel noise / vibration at this track so it felt better here.
Interesting. As for the car - LOVE it LOVE it LOVE it
Sometimes when you really whack a kerb there's a big kickback in the steering which took
me by surprise as sims never do this.. But real cars do and now this FC just feels alive and
real. I stand by my comments above on the FFB at Oulton Park - here I also noticed the
steering go heavy when I locked a tyre under braking: what it should do is create a rumble
followed by going light as the grip falls away. But other than that it's feeling mighty
impressive and so exciting to drive.
Looking forward to driving this car in the wet and feeling the steering wheel forces which
should be lighter but equally communicative of what is happening: going light when grip is
lost / during a slide and going heavy as the car grips / apexes a corner or thumps a kerb
Formula B @ Imola
Cr2 tyre
FFB feels SUPER light after the FC and really the higher downforce car should feel heavier at
the wheel.
The rear has too much grip on acceleration so it's not quite as much fun to drive anymore
compared to the FC, and when you do slide on power it tends to be a catastrophic
moment of oversteer, from a level of high grip to a big drop off.
It's still an awesome car and I love driving it but I think it should be more lively / more
forgiving under acceleration if possible.
Default Tyre
I revisited the FB on the default tyre and discovered a much better balance in terms of the
rear end being a little looser on corner exit. However there’s something slightly unusual with
the balance.
Quite often there’s a sense of power understeer – ie the front slides when you accelerate
through a medium speed corner, and then you run into snap o/steer. Unlike the FC, there’s
no gradual transition (KEYWORD) from understeer into oversteer as you squeeze the gas
pedal. This was the major major breakthrough in my opinion with the FC in the last few
builds and I would love to see this compliance make an appearance in the Formula B,
along with some greater FFB realism.
I also notice with both the FB and the FA that the initial turn in feels a bit wanting.. I want it
to dart into the apex more. We had a far more aggressive turn in capability a few builds
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back but this has given way to quite a tame turn in for the faster corners, and even at low
speed I don’t feel the car rotating quite as well as it could.
SUMMARY: don’t get me wrong, the car is mega. But having experienced the high level
turn in, and the super compliant acceleration from mid corner on other builds it’s hard not
to ask for it to make a return.
Formula A @ Imola
Default tyre
My initial impressions were that the FA felt more tamed than previously, with less aggressive
power, braking and corner entry.
Braking – my system is set to 100 % pressure but I’m planting the brake pedal to the end
stop and still wanting more initial stopping power, and it takes a while for the tyres to reach
locking
Like the FB, the car has understeer on initial acceleration and if you break traction, which is
difficult, it REALLY bites – it doesn't feel as alive any more at the rear, I feel like I want either
more power or less grip so that the rear can break free as you accelerate, the way that the
FC does.
It’s not all about grip. By that I mean that I don’t expect the FA to exit a corner much faster
than the FC, but I do expect it to feel tighter in the corner and have more power to
contend with, and therefore the throttle application should take a little longer.
I was reminded of this in Texas racing the GT amongst the big LPM1 cars – you almost run
into the back of them at the apex of slow/medium speed corners because their minimum
cornering speed is SLOWER than a GT at times. The GT gets on the gas earlier and hussles
more speed while the LMP1 has to rotate into a straight line before it fires out of the corner
and leaves you for dust.
Back to the FA – it feels underpowered exiting these slower corners.
Lotus 98T
The new Turbo sound is awesome – would love to feel more boost and feel it earlier in the
mid range rather than in higher RPM, it feels to me like its coming in too late. Also when I
put the car into 5th gear the car lost all its power and went slower!
I think this car needs much more power, especially on corner exit (mid range again). So my
thoughts on the 98T currently match my feeling in the FA.
I’m off to get soaking wet in the rain settings now and see how that’s coming along. Thank
you for all the great work and keep diggin’
Have a great weekend All!
Andrew Weber:
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That tells me the grip falloff is not strong enough at extreme slide levels (slip angle and
wheelspin). Because without lockup, at ideal braking, flex in a pliable tire should increase
load feel (as described in another thread), due to the contact patch shift. But yeah, on
lockup, grip should go way down, flex should not be there so much, so the load feel should
drop off. And depending on the resolution we are running the tire at, we may pick up the
chop as that grip (especially tack and adhesion) lets go, getting the rumble.
Guess I'll refine the r21 into an r22. This should be a minor change with respect to nominal
racing. The risk is LSS if we go too far.
Ben Collins:
Thanks boss - i've just been for a tour in the rain and ran on the 'default tyre' - couldn't see a
wet option but i tried W1 & W2 in case these were rain tyres but i didn't feel that they were.
Please advise ?
Going through standing water there was no aquaplane and the graphics showed i was still
on slicks so i think i missed something, or perhaps the wet tyres aren't currently available. I
ran in 'thunderstorm' conditions - my favourite!
Andrew Weber:
I have to dial the tires into the actual "wetness" values the track is feeding the tires.
Actually, Casey has done most of this already, I just need to leverage it for the wets I am
doing. So on cars I am working on (FA, FB, FC, L49, and GT40), don't worry about wets yet.
Ben Collins:
Project cars oct 13
FORMULA A
This is a review of the Formula A tyres (R7 & R8) in the current build with a few sidenotes
about functionality and a couple of bugs i've noticed. We are close now with the FA but i
really believe some tweaking will make all the difference.
GRAPHICS / MOVEMENT
I have mentioned Microprose GP2 & GP3 before so please don't reach for the 9MM just
yet. GP2 was awesome for me, GP3 made the feel slightly better because on turn in the
graphics showed some pitch as the weight shifted over, and from distant memory i believe
this also applied to the braking. The reason this matters so much is because you feel a
sense of control over the weight shift and balance of the car - which is such a vital feature
of real racing.
Our asses aren't plugged into a live seat that generates G forces, but our eyes can detect
that movement instantly and if it could be tied to the real forces being simulated within the
program then you would achieve a very special effect - a dynamic motion within the "car"
that the operator can relate to and work with. The only car i have noticed with this feature,
and only a bit, was the 98T Renault F1. I've also enjoyed the commotion inside the LMP cars
when you hop kerbs, but what i would love to have is a small sense of roll and pitch during
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braking and turn in. COULD WE HAVE A CRACK AT THIS?
KERBS
Let's keep an eye on the Kerbs and the extent to which they make the car go airborne. I
think we are just about ok with the FA but when i ran a kerb at high speed i went a little
higher than i expected and felt both front tyres leave the ground. It was bordering on
overkill.
I've returned to my usual test facility: Imola. It still works brilliantly for me because it has so
many unique features.
R7 tyre
BUG NOTE: When you Restart on the time trial mode it causes the car to malfunction and
roll onto its side. I've rebooted a few times and this has been an issue spanning a little over
a month for me. Or perhaps the computer knows i love driving on 2 wheels..
Balance
With this tyre you immediately get a sense of its balance, especially in low speed corners
and on turn in to high speed.
LOW SPEED
There's too much "power understeer" on acceleration (the rear squats/sits and you lose
steering power) followed by overtly aggressive wheelspin - let's broaden both points to
make sense of them.
At mid corner when you ease onto the power, the diff should create some balance and
harmony across the rear axle and to some extent power understeer is normal, but we have
too much and the transition from the fronts not turning to oversteer is too sharp. The fact
that you have to apply extra steering to overcome the understeer exacerbates the
oversteer when it comes because the tail swings even more. Which leads me to the
second point.
By mid corner you have applied copious steering to make the car turn, then all of a
sudden if you exceed the limit of rear traction and there's a sudden drop in grip and the
car snaps sideways. I find it too difficult to balance the car on the throttle and gradually
increase it as the corner opens. When the rears lose grip it's a big fall from high grip to very
low grip. I KNOW THAT WE CAN ACHIEVE THIS, BECAUSE WE ALREADY HAVE WITH THE
FORMULA C :D
Solution: perhaps a little less rear grip, but less drop off in grip when the rears slide. The tyres
do not have enough grip when the tyres are sliding - if there's a way to build in more grip
when the tyres are skidding then i think we will crack this issue.
HIGH SPEED TURN IN
At high speed the car is quite lazy on turn in, it doesn't feel like it transfers enough weight to
the outside front tyre and refuses to point you into the corner aggressively enough. I never
have oversteer on turn in. At medium and low speed corners the car is superb and stable
during the INITIAL entry phase, so I only really notice this problem at high speed. As per my
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comments above, the nose suffers in other ways in slower corners.
POSITIVES
These are quite natural sensations with racing and can potentially be dialled out with setup
(in the real world), but I think we are looking for more balance in the tyre at this stage of
proceedings.
Reducing grip is not necessarily the solution, its all about the transition and needing more
front end so that there's less steering on when the rear breaks free, and once it breaks
having more grip to smoothen out the corner exit process.
R8 Tyre
A lower grip version of the R7 - the wheelspin is a little easier to control because the
wheelspin starts earlier but it feels a bit lazy for an F1 car. I really felt all the balance issues i
noted above so i won't repeat them here. Neither tyre felt "better" or worse as such, but my
preference was the R8 purely because i felt more locked in and braking was quite
sensational.
The only thing i did notice with the R8 was that i was getting sideways under braking for a
hairpin, which was quite fun. If you can scale down grip this accurately without upsetting
the balance then i'm sure that our WET setup will be a cracker. The R8 felt like a worn
version of the R7.
R7 & R8 FEEDBACK
BRAKING
With both tyres the braking feels awesome and just like F1 because the pedal pressure is
maximum to begin with, which is quite right, followed by some serious juggling as the
speed reduces, the downforce bleeds off and the tyre approaches it's threshold of grip.
With the R8 I notice the front end issue (understeer) a little more but effectively there's little
to choose between them
I made the following set up changes to see if i could dial out the understeer
8 to 10 front wing
50mm to 40 front ride heigh
250 to 320 farb to effect weight transfer on turn in and control wheelspin
Changes didn't alter the fundamentals. Any gains mid corner were punished with severe
lighting up of the rears on exits, especially low and medium speed corners which is not
what I would expect from the changes made. I noticed more front end bite on turn in at
high speed but not enough, and lowering the ride height should have aided rotation
everywhere but it translated only into extra wheelspin. So I think we should work on more
compliance with the tyre but in terms of pure grip level I think we are about right with the
R7, it's just a case of fine tuning the dynamics. It sounds so easy!
I hope this makes sense - for me the FA needs an easier transition from understeer into
oversteer, more grip when it slides and from a balance perspective it needs a stronger
front end for better turn in and better mid corner grip.
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Great work as always!
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback. I think changes for R9 boil down to what you said mid report.
Bring in some more FC-ness into the next FA tire.
Ben Collins:
Very cool - keeping an eye on Nic's reports all the while and we are on the same page re
aggressiveness and driveability, excited to see what comes out of your bunker!
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 828 and will cover the Aston Martin Vantage
GT4 and the Aston Martin Rapide S Hydrogene.
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Time Trial
Aston Martin Vantage GT4 – GT4 Soft Slick
Ok so my first impressions of this car are really good. I think the general balance is at a very
good level, which gives us the ability to work on the finer characteristics of the balance to
make the car feel even more realistic. The most important characteristic that the general
balance of this car gives you is ‘consistency’ and ‘predictability’, where the car is
constantly moving around at the rear, but gives the driver the confidence to control/ know
how much the car is going to move/ rotate to where you can feel ‘on top’ of the car (in
full control of the car) and this is important for feeling and performance.
What impresses me most about this car is how it reacts immediately to any slight change
you make to the setup, where one slight change to the rear anti roll bar or rear springs,
changes the whole attitude of the car. This is to be expected and is what should happen,
but this is the first car where I feel you can really dial/ set it up to your personal preference.
As I said above, the rear of this car moves around a lot, where it is constantly sliding which
can help with rotation both on and off power, but also can affect traction and exit
performance. During my testing programme with this car, I have been playing around with
the Roll-bars and springs on both front and rear, with an added change to the camber
here or there. The main aim of these changes where to get the front to be a little more
positive on entry to medium and high-speed corners, where the rear would slide less and
be more ‘planted’ to where the exit speeds and acceleration is faster and more instant, as
with the rear sliding, the engine note does not rise and hinders exit performance. The
balance of the front and rear is very important as too much grip on the rear creates a lot
of understeer, with the front creating the opposite affect, but getting the balance correct
is very rewarding and makes you even more consistent and the car even more
predictable.
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In terms of changes/ improvements, the car is very solid and so my suggestions are very
minor. Firstly, although above I have praised this car for the predictability and consistency it
gives you, I do however feel that you can get away with a little too much, to where the
rear ‘off power’ is too stable, where too much load/ too much speed carried into a corner
does not cause the rear to break/ fall away, but instead rotates and then grips again,
which causes understeer instead. The only way to spin with this car is ‘on power caused’ by
a break of traction and not by driver error of the rear breaking away due to excessive load
on the tyres when cornering.
My second suggestion is to decrease the grip of the front tyre through slow speed corners,
where at the moment they are too forgiving to where they pull too much speed out of the
car during mid-corner, which gets you out of trouble too much if too much speed is carried
through the corner, you do understeer and start to go wide, but the front tyre ends up
pulling you out of trouble at some stage, which allows you to adopt a more unrealistic
driving style. As I said, both of these suggestions are very minor, I am now just picking the
finer details to make the car feel more realistic in different situations, but the base
performance and balance we have is fantastic.
Aston Martin Rapide S Hydrogene – GT4 Soft Slick
Ok so this car I feel needs more work compared to the Vantage GT4. The general balance
feels pretty similar in some regards, but then feels weaker in other areas in comparison. The
main point that I feel needs more work is the ability to ‘feel’ the car. At the moment, the
most noticeable ‘feel’ issue is braking, where the reaction of the car during the initial ‘hit’
of the brake pedal is not sudden enough, to where the animation of the car does no react
aggressive enough and does not take enough speed out of the car and causes a
misunderstanding of ‘speed perception’. This means that after you start braking, you are
unsure on the amount of speed you are carrying on entry to the corner.
In terms of the general balance, this car has opposite feelings in comparison to the
Vantage GT4, which is a positive on one side, but then a negative on the other. The
characteristic that separates both the Rapide and the GT4 is the behaviour of the car ‘off
throttle’. As you can see from the paragraph above, the GT4 seems to have too much grip
off throttle, where the car does not release naturally and provides too much grip, with a
good amount grip, consistency and predictability on power. What I have found with the
Rapide is that the car feels more natural ‘off throttle’ where the rear is less stable at midcorner, which causes more realistic rotation and the tendency of oversteer if too much
speed is carried into the corner or the tyre is overloaded, which I feel is a positive in
comparison to the GT4.
The negative of this car in comparison to the GT4 in terms of general balance, is that the
rear behaviour is less predictable ‘on power’. This is difficult to understand why, as both
cars run on the same GT4 Slick, but the Rapide seems to break traction/lose stability when
the outside of the rear tyre is under load, which is less of an issue with the GT4 and feels
more realistic/ natural. In terms of setup changes, this car reacts just as well as the GT4, so
improving the instability on the outside of the rear tyre was possible with setup changes,
but the feeling and behaviour this characteristic gives off with this car makes it feel like a
setup/ balance I would defiantly not be happy with in real life. Slow-speed grip seems
even higher in comparison to the GT4, with the front of the car feeling too positive and too
aggressive when you make mistakes/need to get out of trouble. The front tyre takes a lot of
speed out of the car when steering lock is applied, which makes the front feel like it is on
‘train rails’ where the front will bite, turn and rotate regardless of the speed carried through
the corner, which feels unrealistic and unnatural, as just turning the steering wheel to get
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out of trouble and to get the car to grip up again is not how it show be.
Gear Ratios
Just a quick note to mention that the Gear Ratios on both cars feel too long by default,
where 6th gear is hardly reached, with the ratios on the Rapide making the car feel very
lazy, docile, boring and not aggressive enough to give off an experience of driving a race
car. The engine note in the Rapide is always low and this takes away the engine
performing at its full potential/capacity. Both cars I feel have the same sort of feeling in this
regard, but with the Rapide being worse.
Overall
Overall, both cars are at a great base foundation level and are where they should be, we
are just now working with the finer characteristics that in my eyes are most important to
maximise the realism and experience when driving either of the cars. I would suggest
looking at all of the characteristics I have pointed out to see if there is any room for
improvement, with the braking feel/speed perception with the Rapide being a key factor.
As you all know, this is not me telling you guys what to do, but to just give suggestions on
how to make things better.
Hope this helps.
Nic
Casey Ringley:
Nice detail on the Astons, Nic. Our opinions on many aspects of them are very similar and
mostly differ where I know we have different driving styles. Good sign, IMO. I'm leaning
toward (mostly) leaving them as is now and letting setup differences make the difference
as I think the defaults will work reasonably well for 95% of the crowd (read: pretty safe) and
leave a little room to find extra speed for those willing to do the tuning.
One area that might get a little more review here is the GT4 tire. The rubber compound
there is still pretty much identical to the GT3 cars, and I think these could benefit from a few
changes as the cars are typically heavier (much heavier in the Rapide's case) and feature
little to no downforce. Could probably benefit from some slightly different properties, as I'm
sure is the case between most real GT3 and GT4 rubber.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope everyone is good.
So this post is going to be based on Build 830 and will just cover the Formula B and the
recent R8 tyre that is available for it.
Circuit: Besos GP
Mode: Time Trial
So I was originally going to wait for the updated R22 tyre for the Formula C to then give
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feedback on both the Formula B and the Formula C in one go, but AJ has been waiting for
quite a while for me to give some feedback on the R8 tyre, so I thought I will just do a bit
today.
Formula B tyre Testing – R8
As you all know, I gave my thoughts/feedback on the CR2 Standard tyre and the R7 tyre a
couple of weeks ago, which can be found HERE. The general feelings as you can read
were very positive with a calculated decision to keep focussing on the R7 tyre, as with
more work, it will become the better/ more realistic tyre in comparison.
This leads me onto today, where I have been going through the 3 revisions (CR2 Standard,
R7 and R8) back-to-back to refresh my memory and to carry on developing this tyre to put
it where we need it. Going through the 3 revisions back-to-back has really taught me a lot
about the different revisions and their characteristics, as for sure the CR2 standard tyre is
the fastest, most aggressive and stable tyre, but as it is so good, it takes me back to the
BTM days where the tyres were producing so much grip, that it would allow you to adopt
an unrealistic driving style and although it feels great, is consistent and fun, it is not realistic
enough.
Moving to the R7 tyre, I instantly found that the tyre does not allow the engine to release in
comparison to the CR2 Standard tyre, which creates a top speed deficit of about ‘5kph’ at
the end of the straight, which instantly makes the car feel slower with the revs sitting lower
also. Braking felt exactly the same, with a nice lock-up towards the end of the braking
phase if too much pressure is applied, with front entry bite being less, making the front-end
more docile but feel more natural and easier to place regardless of the increase in
understeer. As you can see from my previous post on the R7 tyre, it does tend to struggle
during mid-corner of slow-speed, where the mid-corner bite/ hold of the tyre is very weak,
but with strong traction on exit.
With the R8 tyre, the engine does release a little more in comparison to the R7 to where it is
only slower than the CR2 Standard tyre by around ‘3kph’. What I like about this tyre, is that
by driving it on the limit for a number of laps, I can feel the changes that AJ has made
quite clearly, which firstly makes me think ‘ wow, AJ is good at taking my feedback and
then dialling it into a tyre to where I can feel the differences that are on the right lines of
what I asked for’ and secondly that, ‘this tyre is really getting close to completion, it just
needs a little more fine adjusting’.
Whilst testing this tyre, the main differences in the characteristics of the tyre I felt where,
more rotation/ sliding at the rear on power and more aggression from the front tyre
through slow-speed corners due to more immediate bite together with added rotation
from the rear. I think this tyre is great through medium-speed corners, with strong entry bite,
with good mid-corner hold, that does fall away if overloaded or too much speed is carried,
which makes this characteristic positive and realistic. Slow-speed entry and mid-corner
bite/hold has defiantly improved with more aggression that decreases understeer and
allows the car to turn easier/ earlier, but does not affect the balance of the car off power.
For the first few laps, I was struggling by not being able to ‘lean on’/’load up’ the outside of
the rear tyre on power without the car breaking traction and snapping into an
uncontrollable spin. As I learnt more about this tyre, I found that the rear moves/rotates
more to compensate for the front and only snaps if you load the outside of the tyre past a
certain point.
What I am trying to say is that, less traction is available when on power, which is good, as
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this requires more modulation/thought during the acceleration phase in comparison to the
CR2 Standard tyre and the R7 tyre, but the instability at a certain point of the rear tyre
when on power causes a small amount of unpredictability, to where the rear feels like it is
floating/ over-steering through high-speed and snaps suddenly if too much lock is applied
or too much load is forced upon the tyre. Do not get me wrong, I think the R8 is a great
improvement and is defiantly a further step in the right direction, it is now the rear stability,
traction and behaviour that we need to dial/modify, as the rest of the tyre is great.
In terms of improvements, I would purely leave all of the other aspects of the tyre and
instead focus on the rear, where I would suggest by going one more step in tightening up
the rear to where there is still the rotation needed through slow-speed corners, which also
equals the improved front bite, but to also take away some of the sudden ‘fall-off’ when
the outside of the rear tyre is put under load, as this feels like you are ‘treading on egg
shells’ with the car floating at the rear through high-speed. The change only needs to be
minor, but an increase in grip where high-speed floating is still present but less of a factor,
with the traction and rear stability on the outside of the rear tyre being present but not as
aggressive.
Laptime Comparison - Default Setup
CR2 Standard - 1:29.3
R7 - 1:31.7
R8 - 1:31.0
Of course the above lap times are not on the limit or with the car set-up for flying laps, but I
did several '5 lap runs' on each tyre and was able to stay within 2 tenths lap-after-lap on all
3 tyres, which shows consistency. I just wanted to give you some information to see the
difference in lap time compared to all 3 tyres, with the improvement between R7 and R8
being purely down to the improvement of slow-speed grip/ bite of the R8 tyre, which helps
a lot during mid-corner of the hairpin at Turn 10 and the direction change at the chicane
of turn 14 and 15.
We are seriously close with this car/tyre in my eyes, lets try improving the rear slightly and
that will tell us where we go next.
Hope this helps.
Nic J
Andrew Weber:
Thanks for the feedback. We'll get this last bit nailed asap. My weekend goal includes an
FB R9.
Andrew Weber:
OK, not going to get FB R9 done yet. Getting both yours and Ben's FA changes in are
proving to be tricky. But that is my goal for today now.
Andrew Weber:
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Update on FA work...
I had to soften the carcass a little to get both yours and Ben's feedback to work. This
means there is a side effect that the amount of lock you need at times will be a little
higher. Not a lot, but some. But upside is not only could I get some FC-ness in (Ben's
feedback), but I could get some aggressiveness while keeping the lower R8 grip spec (your
feedback). Further, the feel improved overall.
The downside is, this revision is not just a minor tweak from R7&R8. I would call it a moderate
revision. So hopefully we did not take a step back somewhere else in the envelope. That is
where you and Ben come in to check. J
I did not have time to sync and test, so the tire is not committed yet. But it is ready to be.
Nicolas Hamilton:
This sounds great AJ,
I look forward to testing it out when I get it in a Build.
Good work, it sounds like you have given myself and Ben the 'best of both worlds' J
Andrew Weber:
Maybe. But like I said, that best of both worlds is a little bit of a different world. So I hope
there is not a new bad.
Luis Barata:
Checking the kerbs on Nick description I have worked on it and exported for testing
(should be in one of the next builds).
Check the corners names here.
Corner 1 - Paddock Hill Bend -right kerb in the descend to Hailwoods Hill had height
enough so wasn't rearranged.
Corner 2 - Druids Bend - Only applied smooth bumping in the kerb grid on the left side in
the descend.
Corner 3 - Graham Hill Bend - Left kerb was raised substantially.
- Cooper straight - the right kerb (red and white) was set an heavy bumping the outside
green grid with a smooth bumping.
Corner 4 - Surtees - The kerb was raised.
Corner 6 - Westfield Bend - The right kerb was set with an Heavy bumping.
- the left side of the straight kerb (red and white) was set an heavy bumping the outside
grey with a smooth bumping.
Corner 7 - Sheene Curve - Right side kerb had already height enough
Corner 8 - Stirlings Bend - Left side kerb had in general a smooth bumping except in the
larger section middle of it where the bumping is heavy.
- After the corner right side the kerb was set with an heavy bumping.
Corner 9 - Clark Curve - The right side kerb was raised.
The test was made with a Renault Clio Cup 14 and a BMW M3 GT4. The first test was to
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check if we have any physics abnormal reactions passing over the kerbs and was
detected none. The second test was to go over the kerbs to feel it (tested with a G27
feedback 100%) amd the feeling was good. In the first test the Clio in the kerbs that were
raised can be seen clearly sometimes in 2 wheels (I was in the last place to observe it) in
the bumping kerbs the Clio feels it probably too much but I have no comparison to
evaluate that.
When I say an heavy bumping means the normal teeth creating a kerb section of, in this
case, 50 cm and 10 cm height the smooth bumping is the same 50 cm but 4 cm height.
So feedback is important to adjust the values especially in the bumping kerbs.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Great job Luis, this all looks great.
I will get to work on going over the circuit again and will give you my thoughts and
feedback on the changes.
I will post my thoughts soon
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 835 and will cover the Lotus 49 Cosworth and
the new Vintage R9 tyre that is available for it.
Circuit: Brands Hatch GP
Mode: Time Trial
Lotus 49 Cosworth
Ok so, it has been a while since I last drove this car properly, as I have been working on
other cars for the past couple of months. As it has been a while, I felt that I needed to
catch up with the work AJ has been doing on the tyres for this car and so I did some backto-back testing on both the R8 and R9 tyres. I know AJ has already got the feedback he
needed from the R8 tyre, so I will not go into full detail, but will give a small amount of
feedback to help with my comparison of R9 and my conclusion, as going over the R8 tyre
and then running the R9 straight after has brought me up to date.
These cars were absolute animals to drive back in the day, with pure bravery and driver skill
separating the ‘men from the boys’. Firstly, in Pcars, I think just driving this car, regardless of
what tyre you are on is a totally different experience in comparison to the modern day
cars we have, which is what I feel makes this game stand out in comparison to any other
competitor, where you have to adopt a completely different driving style to what you are
use to, with the car only reacting to a driving style/technique that is/was fast back in the
old days, but is slow with modern cars today. I think it is fantastic that we (SMS and WMD)
have been able to create a game that takes you through different generations of
Motorsport, where you do not just drive the car where it feels the same as a modern day
car, but you have to drive the car like Jim Clarke would of back in the day, which to me is
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just an amazing feature/ achievement to have in a game.
Vintage R8 Tyre
So with this car, I see the most important factor that needs to be correct is a believable
balance. As I said above, the car requires a completely different driving style, so it does
take a while to get use to, with the front-end being very lazy with minimal initial entry bite,
which of course causes a lot of scrub/ understeer, but with a lot of power on throttle
application, which requires both car and throttle control.
The R8 tyre was the first tyre I drove to get a feel for the car and what I noticed was that
the balance felt very believable in terms of behaviour, where the car is constantly moving,
which requires a lot of control and a technique of turning-in early and instead of relying on
the grip of the front tyres to pull you through the apex like you would in modern day cars,
due to the lack of bite, you have to use the power to create rotation to turn the car. This to
me all felt how I would of expected a driver to drive this car back in the old days, as there
was more power than grip back then. Where I felt the R8 needed adjusting was the level of
grip/traction the rear tyres produced, not on initial throttle application, but after the initial
phase has been completed where you are at full throttle. The car would move correctly as
the tyres begin to load up laterally, but there was not enough stability on the outside of the
rear tyre, which caused the rear to snap and feel a little too loose, which made me feel
that we needed to just tighten up the rear a little to allow for the same amount of
movement, but with more stability and hold.
Vintage R9 Tyre
This leads me onto the R9 Tyre, which is pretty much the solution to the R8 issues of traction
and stability, which is great. I feel the behaviour of the front-end is practically identical to
the R8, but with more traction at the rear, which on one hand makes rotation harder to
create, but then makes the rear more stable and believable on power, which takes away
the issues of R8. I personally think this tyre/ car is at a great level and so there is not much to
point out in terms of improvements/ changes, which is of course a good thing.
One change I would make, which has already been mentioned by others, which AJ knows
about, is the fact that the car is too easy to recover from moments/movements or spins. As
well as that, I feel this issue is due to the fact that there is too much grip ‘off power’ when
the car is ‘drifting’, so as you apply power to create rotation, as soon as you lift off, the
front wants to correct itself, where the car needs to feel more ‘free’ when sliding. This to me
will help both the ‘drifting’ characteristic, as well as the ‘spinning’ issue, as the more ‘free’
the car becomes when all 4 wheels are drifting, the more realistic the car will react when
creating rotation and when spinning after a mistake. As you know, I do not usually like
talking about drifting, as I do not see drifting as an important factor in general, only in the
balance of the car, but with this car, drifting is an important factor.
Overall, the R9 tyre is for sure a great improvement from the R8 and is defiantly the correct
direction to go. I would suggest working on the grip of ‘4 wheel drifting’ off power, with the
grip needing to be decreased only slightly in this regard to allow the car to feel more ‘free’
and natural, but to keep the behaviour of the rear traction and stability the same when on
power and driving straight (not drifting), as the balance of the rear and behaviour of the
car in this regard is great. This car feels raw and pure with just a loud engine and the drivers
‘right foot’!
FFB
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I just quickly want to touch on the FFB with this car, which I feel needs some work/
improvements. I have not been using a ‘Tweaker File’ and instead have just been using the
default FFB that is set for this car, which if I am not mistaken, is what AJ added in along with
the new R9 tyre last week. So the positive of the FFB is the added detail that is more
noticeable, with more vibration and reactions over bumps, and kerbs, with more jolts over
high kerbs and improved detail over kerb ripples. A slight improvement to the FFB detail
over kerbs would be that, more vibration/detail is needed when using an exit kerb at race
speed, as at the moment, the FFB only reacts/ gives off detail when driving slowly over a
kerb, with a lot less detail at race speed. Grass and gravel is the most noticeable, with a lot
of detail and vibration, which is a great improvement, as this shows that finer details are
becoming more noticeable, but again, different speeds cause different rates of feedback,
with grass and gravel being more noticeable at higher speeds, with low speed not giving
off much detail at all. This is the direct opposite to the kerbs.
The main point/ area of improvement I want to talk about, is the general behaviour of the
FFB, which I feel is very odd. Firstly, the detail/ feature we have of the steering wheel being
heavy when the car is stationary still feels heavy and has the same characteristics, but the
FFB shakes the wheel violently on the spot from right to left and only stops if you grip the
steering wheel. I am not sure if this feature is meant to be replicating engine vibration when
stationary, but if so, this needs to be decreased. The same behaviour of the FFB vibrating
violently is also present sometimes in a straight line if you loosen your grip on the steering
wheel, which also needs to be adjusted as this affects general control of the car. The most
important behavioural characteristic that needs looking at is the affect that movement of
the car has on the steering wheel. This is quite hard to explain, but what I mean is, as the
Lotus 49 Cosworth car moves around a lot, every slight movement of the car, causes the
steering wheel to correct the slide or movement automatically/ itself. This makes accuracy
difficult, as the steering wheel/ FFB has a mind of its own either on entry, during or at exit of
a corner, which means that the driver is trying to turn one way, but as the car is oversteering for example, the steering wheel is turning the opposite direction to correct the
slide or in-balance, which feels like you are fighting the car more than you have to.
Today I took my hands off of the wheel to see the reaction of the wheel without me
holding onto it and found that the steering wheel/FFB over-reacts to the movement of the
car where it actually corrects any slight movement or slide itself, which should not be the
case. Of course in real life, the steering wheel does move and react to the cars behaviour
when the driver is holding onto the steering wheel, but the drivers strength over-powers
most movements and reactions of the wheel, which overall does not affect the drivers
control of the car, whereas at the moment with this car, the steering wheel/ FFB affects the
overall driver control.
Overall, this car is great fun to drive and in my eyes is a very big achievement, in which we
should all be proud of. There are a few minor changes needed to the grip ‘off power’
when the car is ‘4 wheel drifting’, but the changes made to the R8 tyre, which has created
the R9 tyre is great.
Hope this helps
Nic
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Andrew Weber:
Great feedback, and it does have an affect on the next revision. The slick vintage tires
were already going to get more isotropic rubber hysteresis, but the treaded (like the R9)
tires were going to get highly anisotropic (much more longitudinal falloff than lateral). Your
feedback implies even the treaded tires should maybe be closer to isotropic, as that would
free up the drifting as you request.
As for the FFB, the L49 currently has "G27" FFB settings, which means there is a little bit of
tighten center and non linearity. That can wreck havok on a properly setup CSW, like you
have, especially in oscillation issues, which is exactly what you report. We have to live with
this each car has a best default wheel problem for just a little longer, as we wait for the FFB
refactor to complete.
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
I hope everyone is well and had a good weekend.
Ok so this post is a continuation from my previous post on the Lotus 49 Cosworth, based on
Build 837 and will cover the Lotus 72D Cosworth.
Circuit: Imola
Mode: Time Trial
Lotus 72D
Ok so just like I did last week with the Lotus 49, as it had been a while since I last drove this
car, I did some back-to-back testing on both the slick tyres available to see where we are
at with this car and what needs to be looked at for improvement.
L72 Slick
Straight out of the box I think this car is awesome, so far I think it is probably the bestbalanced car we have at the moment with regards to grip transition, which makes the car
an absolute joy to drive. The characteristics of the tyres are what makes the balance so
strong in my eyes, with great initial front entry bite, a solid amount of rear stability off power
at mid-corner and a well-balanced rear tyre on power, where it is important but difficult to
modulate on throttle application, but as the rear tyre has a great balance between being
stable and unstable, this requires car control for correcting movements but also gives a
sense of confidence when the car is sliding, as the tyre also gives off a good level of grip
and stability. This is a great positive, as the characteristics of the tyres makes the car
predictable and controllable with progressive movements that can change to ‘snap
moments/movements’ if the wrong technique is used. All of this makes you feel ‘on top
‘of/in full control of the car, with the limit of the tyres being easy to gage, but as the
balance changes depending on throttle technique, it can bite you.
Ok so you should all know me by now, the way I like to analyse car balance is by taking
the positives of the balance and look for negatives/improvements within the balance
characteristics to make the overall balance more realistic. As you can see from my
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comments above, I think the balance and performance of this tyre is great, but there are a
couple of characteristics, which this tyre has that I feel needs improving. The first one is the
amount of grip the tyres produce when the car is sliding ‘off power’. This characteristic/
situation is very similar to the Vintage R9 tyre on the Lotus 49, where there seems to be too
much stability/ grip available when off power at mid-corner. What I have noticed with this
tyre is that there is never instability caused by balance issues off power and instead
instability is only present on power.
As I said earlier, the front bite is very strong and instant, which is great, but as there is a
lot/too much grip/stability during the usual rotation phase at mid-corner, this stops any sort
of rotation, where the car is completely planted. This on one hand is great, as it allows for
good confidence, but this also allows for unrealistic driving styles of ‘snatching’ at the
steering wheel on entry with the car sliding, but gripping too much to the point where there
is no instability caused. This sounds great on one side, as the car feels like it is on ‘train rails’,
but from a realistic point of view, this makes driving unrealistically more rewarding than
driving realistically. To improve this, I would take the same steps as we are planning with
the Vintage R9 tyre on the Lotus 49 and allow the car to become more ‘free’ with less
grip/stability available at mid-corner when sliding, but not to affect the rest of the cars
balance. This change I feel is very minor and only needs to be changed ‘one step at a
time’, but will make a big improvement to the overall realistic behaviour and characteristic
of the car. Lastly, one more characteristic I noticed, was the tendency of instability on
power when the outside part of the rear tyre is loaded up. To have got the current
balance to where it is at the moment seems that the instability on the outside of the rear
tyre under load is what creates the movement/control factor when exiting a corner.
The improvement needed with this characteristic I feel is the behaviour of the tyre under
general load through a ‘kink’ or a straight with a slight curve, where one movement of the
steering wheel causes load on the outside of the rear tyre, which results in a weird feeling
of instability/wheel-spin. This to me is a negative, as a low amount of load should not cause
a break in traction/wheel-spin, where instead, the tyre should remain stable on the outside
of the rear tyre after the acceleration/traction phase is finished, which means the driver
can rely on the stability and grip the tyre produces. My suggestion would be to increase
the grip/ stability on the outside of the rear tyre after the traction phase is complete, which
will tighten the rear up through general load, but to keep the same instabilities on power in
the early stages of the acceleration phase as this is how it should be.
Vintage Slick – R1
Ok so this tyre is very similar to the L72 slick, to put it simply, I see this tyre as the
‘exaggerated’ version of the L72 slick, as it gives off the same levels of grip transition, where
you can feel movements/slides grip at a certain point, but with the car feeling more lively
on power, with less traction and initial stability, but with the same stability in the middle of
the rear tyre, which helps with control, predictability and confidence of the car. Braking I
feel is more sensitive, with less pressure needed to lock the front wheels in comparison to
the L72 slick. The most noticeable difference with this tyre I feel is front entry bite, as well as
rear stability and rotation ‘off power’. The front tyres seem lazier, more docile and less
aggressive in comparison to the L72 slick, but this is to be expected.
What I have noticed with this tyre is that, to compensate for the front tyre being less
aggressive with less bite, the rear is less stable on initial entry, which causes rotation and
more aggression for the front. I personally do not see this as an issue and think that it
compliments the balance of the car, as it requires thought and car control on corner entry.
The only downfall I see with this tyre, is pretty much the same as the L72 slick, where there is
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too much stability off power at mid-corner, where the rear initially rotates due to less grip at
the rear, but the front automatically straightens the car back up again without and realistic
correction or control needed from the driver. With this tyre, you have to adopt a more
realistic driving style in comparison to the L72 slick, but the grip off power at mid-corner also
allows you to get away with unrealistic driving techniques/actions. The situation in regards
to the stability on the outside of the rear tyre after the traction phase has finished, is pretty
much the same, but with even less stability initially as soon as the tyre is loaded. With this
tyre, I would expect more of this behaviour in comparison to the L72 slick, but still feel it
needs to be tightened up a little, as for example, if you were to pull out of the slipstream/
draft of car and load up the outside of the rear tyre, this would cause instability in the tyres
current state and this would be unrealistic.
Overall, I realise what I am asking for is quite confusing, as I am saying that we need to
minimise the instability of the rear tyre through general load, but to keep the rear tyre
instability the same on corner exit and on general behaviour. I think the general balance of
both tyres are what makes the car so enjoyable, I just want to make a few changes that
will make the car feel more realistic and believable and I hope that what I am asking for
with regards to improvements to the outside of the rear tyre of both the Vintage Slick – R1
and the L72 Slick does not tighten the car up too much to the point where the need to
control, think and modulate is not as important.
See what you can do AJ, I think we are at a stage now where we need to just make small
amendments and see what affect it has on the realism of the car, as the general balance
and behaviour is where it should be.
Thanks
Nic
Nicolas Hamilton:
Hey guys,
Ok so this post is going to be based on Build 840 and will be cover the Ariel Atoms on the
Yiro R Light tyre.
Circuit: Oschersleben National
Mode: Time Trial
Ariel Atoms
Ariel Atom 300 Supercharged – Yiro R Light Tyre
Ok so this car feels awesome to me. It is very well balanced and gives you a lot of
satisfaction when driving it. It takes a while to get use to, as this car requires a lot of thought
and a completely different driving style to be fast, but this is what I love about Pcars
because every car is so different. What I think is so good about the balance and nature of
this car is that, you cannot just ‘jump in’ and drive it fast, you have to learn how to drive it,
which to me is a fantastic situation to find ourselves in, as it shows that the game is not just
about having fun, but also about learning a new skill at the same time.
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The default setup is at a pretty good ‘starter’ level for people that do not know much
about setup and want to just drive immediately, but from a professional point on view, I
found it very lazy on the front-end, with a lot of push and understeer meaning that you are
forever waiting for the front to grip up at mid-corner. Another positive with this car, is that it
does not take a lot in terms of setup changes to completely change the behaviour and
aggression of the car, so a change to the front ‘Toe angle’, ‘Springs’, ‘Diff’ settings and a
faster ‘Steering Ratio’ was enough to go 2.5 seconds faster per lap, with the experience
and balance of the car improving greatly.
In terms of the general balance with the setup changes I made, the car was now a lot
more ‘pointy’ and ‘direct’, which minimised the understeer that I was previously
experiencing. The rear of the car was unchanged, with the balance of the rear tyres under
power being very good, with enough low-load level of grip that will punish you/break
traction and spin if you use the wrong technique, but with a great high-load level of grip,
where the car moves and slides under power, but is controllable and provides enough
lateral grip in situations where you are probably just ‘over the limit’ but the tyre hangs on
for you whilst you work hard at the steering wheel to keep the car facing in the right
direction. What is most impressive about this tyre and balance is, the modulation required,
together with smooth steering inputs to keep the car as straight as possible on exit with
minimal sliding. What I found was that, braking is very consistent but it is easy to lock up,
which is to be expected. The front-end after changes is very strong, with the rear giving
great lateral grip at mid-corner and under power, with techniques of using the diff to slow
the car down at mid-corner and modulate the throttle on exit, all being very rewarding
and making this car a lot of fun to drive.
Overall, I have no issues with this car and tyre at all, I think it should stay exactly how it is
currently, with just a change to the effects of tyre smoke being present when the car is
sliding off power, which looks unrealistic to me but is only a minor change and is nothing to
do with the Physics.
Ariel Atom 500 V8 – Yiro R Light Tyre
Now this car I think is mega! I see it as the ‘race version’ of the 300 Supercharged, with a
very similar general balance that requires the same sort of driving style and techniques, but
with a few characteristics that make the car different, more complex and gives you more
to think about when driving it in comparison to the 300 Supercharged. This car I think is the
perfect example of the progression between classes that Pcars offer

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