Alumination Autumn

THE NEWSLETTER FOR FORMER PARTNERS OF GRANT THORNTON UK AUTUMN/WINTER 2013
Where are you now? p6-7
Tony Harper interviews David Brooks p10-11
Introduction
Welcome to the latest edition of Alumination.
Contents
3
Introduction
4 News update
5
CEO update
6
Where are you now?
8
Sally Gunnell
9 Agents of Growth
10Tony Harper interviews
David Brooks
12 Forthcoming events
13 London alumni event
14 Linkedin update
15 Partner alumni golf event
©2013 Grant Thornton UK LLP. All rights reserved.
I hope you, your friends and family have enjoyed what has been
a great summer.
We are all now back from the main holiday season
concentrating on delivering the 13/14 financial year. In this
edition, Scott refers to the positive 12/13 results and the
challenging competitive landscape. You may have seen recent
press articles and interviews given by Scott in the Daily
Telegraph and other National publications.
Also in this edition Tony Harper interviews David Brooks.
Many of you will remember David and, I am sure, will be keen
to read this article.
Thank you to the 76 who, since the last magazine, have
‘Linked in’ with their fellow partner alumni.
Over 30 discussions have been posted including:
• 1972 Thornton Baker newsletter
• Golf day photos
• Grant Thornton internal magazine
• Details on Not for Profit events
• Summer alumni event photos
• Updates on former colleagues
• And sadly, obituary notices
•Most recently, information on the firm’s latest
financial results have been added.
More importantly it provides you with easy access
to communicate with each other. Thanks in particular go
to Norman Buckland who provided us with a very entertaining
and informative post script to the 1972 newsletter.
If you missed the article last time and want to know how
to join Linkedin please see the article on page 14.
“We are all now back from
the main holiday season
concentrating on delivering
the 13/14 financial year.
In this edition Scott refers
to the positive 12/13 firm’s
results and the challenging
competitive landscape”.
Jenny Balme
National Director, Partner Support Unit
‘Grant Thornton’ means Grant Thornton UK LLP, a limited liability partnership.
Grant Thornton UK LLP is a member firm within Grant Thornton International Ltd
(‘Grant Thornton International’). Grant Thornton International and the member firms are
not a worldwide partnership. Services are delivered by the member firms independently.
This publication has been prepared only as a guide. No responsibility can be accepted
by us for loss occasioned to any person acting or refraining from acting as a result of
material in this publication.
www.grant-thornton.co.uk
JJM004
2 | THE NEWSLETTER FOR FORMER PARTNERS OF GRANT THORNTON UK
Jenny Balme
National Director, Partner Support Unit
AUTUMN/WINTER 2013 | 3
Scott Barnes
CEO
News update
CEO update
Honorary degree for John Anderson
The market overall remains tough, so I’m really pleased that our
strategy is proving itself and that we have clocked up a fourth
year of growth. Early October saw a slew of newspaper headlines
sharing the news about our results.
In July 2013, the head of Scotland’s leading entrepreneurship
network received an honorary degree from the University
of Strathclyde.
John Anderson, CEO and founding member of the
Entrepreneurial Exchange, presides over an organisation with
some 400 members, representing over £14 billion of turnover
and around 150,000 employees. He received the award during
a graduation ceremony at the University on Thursday, 4 July.
Strathclyde Principal Professor Sir Jim McDonald
said: “As a leading international technological university,
Strathclyde seeks to create innovative and effective solutions
to global challenges and we select honorary graduates whose
achievements reflect this ethos.
“We welcome all of our honorary graduands to the
Strathclyde community and recognise not only their
accomplishments but also those of our students who are
graduating at the same time”.
Mr Anderson pursued a career in accountancy, working
in London and Chicago before returning to Scotland to
take an MBA, which he completed at Strathclyde. His thesis,
entitled Local heroes – Scotland’s Entrepreneurial Role Models,
formed the basis of a database he developed, which soon listed
600 businesses, and of the Scottish Enterprise Local Heroes
project, which he was instrumental in establishing.
In 1995, Mr Anderson helped to found the Entrepreneurial
Exchange and to nurture its mission of sharing experiences,
knowledge, skills and leadership, with experienced
entrepreneurs acting as mentors to others embarking
on business ventures.
He served as a Partner in international accountancy
firm Grant Thornton before taking up the role as CEO
of the Entrepreneurial Exchange.
Mr Anderson is also a Visiting Professor at the Hunter
Centre for Entrepreneurship at the University of Strathclyde,
a founding GlobalScot and is a member of the Prince’s Trust
Scotland Council.
Awards won
Joiners and leavers
New partners appointed/to be appointed
Marcus McCaffrey
FIS
London FSQ
9 Sept 2013
Mark Steele
Advisory
London FSQ
16 Sept 2013
Ewen Fleming
FSA*
London FSQ
1 August 2013
Kenn Taylor
FSA*
London FSQ
1 August 2013
Warwick Clews
FSA*
London FSQ
1 August 2013
Richard Milnes
FS Tax
London FSQ
18 Dec 2013
Graham Odlin
Tax
1 July 2013
James Hurst
Tax
1 July 2013
John Shinnick
Assurance
1 July 2013
Leavers
*Financial Services Advisory
Stop Press
With great sadness we report the recent death of former partners:
Ken Hutchinson ( Leicester), Michael Milling ( London) and
Peter Smith (Leicester).
“The power of our firm is
in the quality of our people
and it is essential that we
keep investing in them.
This year saw us promote
25 people to partner and
bring in some 280 trainees,
including 50 school leavers.
Once within the firm, each
person has the opportunity
to develop both their
technical skills and their
business acumen”.
Scott Barnes
CEO
4 | THE NEWSLETTER FOR FORMER PARTNERS OF GRANT THORNTON UK
With a 13% increase in turnover to
£471 million, we have every chance of
meeting our Ambition 2015 target of
£500 million a year early. A target that
seemed very bold in late 2011!
Our approach has been to focus on
broadening our business and targeting
market sectors where we could best find
growth. The result is a firm that is very
different in composition to similar sized
operations as we have built our advisory
capability and grown our public sector
audit client-base radically, thanks to the
Audit Commission wins last year.
Our strategy is clear and we have
a very clear set of criteria for our
investment and expansion, and this is
used to test each prospect that presents
itself, and has enabled us to actively
seek out specific opportunities. We have
been able to be nimble and robust in our
approach. Our aim is not bulk, it is a
rounded practice that will best support
our mission to unlock the potential for
growth in dynamic businesses.
So while our advisory turnover has
risen by a very gratifying 21.2%, the
historic core practice has seen a much
tougher environment: Audit has growth
by dint of the public sector practice’s
growth and Tax has moved back slightly,
largely due to a dearth of transactions.
The power of our firm is in the
quality of our people and it is essential
that we keep investing in them. This year
saw us promote 25 people to partner and
bring in some 280 trainees, including
50 school leavers. Once within the
firm, each person has the opportunity
to develop both their technical skills
and their business acumen. We have
made significant investments in our
development programmes with a specific
focus on developing critical thinking
and communication skills. It is early
days, yet some of our participants in
the so-called Exceptional Connections
programme have already had excellent
results in turning long-term targets into
fee-paying clients.
Over the next few months we are
embarking on a series of events that
will bring us closer to the immediate
concerns and thinking of CEOs and
MDs in the medium-sized business
space. On the back of our well-received
Agents of Growth research, we are
holding four summits where business
leaders and policy-makers can discuss
the opportunities and barriers for these
businesses that form the engine room of
UK plc’s growth.
So, we are focused on delivering
another year of solid results, high quality
work and a developing reputation for
championing growth.
AUTUMN/WINTER 2013 | 5
Where are you now?
an update from Norman Bruckland
I joined Thornton Baker as its first
‘National Overhead’ – a phrase
that I soon converted into ‘Indirect
contributor to Profit’: the official role
was National Secretary. I was in a
small office in Potters Bar, but mostly
travelling to various of the 40 odd
offices along with the Council or
its committees.
This is a bit of history for the many
who may not have known me as the
firm’s National Secretary between 1971
and 1988 (and thereafter as the compiler
of a news sheet for retired partners,
using the word processor that I had been
given as a retirement present.
After five years as a tax inspector,
I became one of the secretariat of the
ICAEW until 1970. Mainly looking after
education, training, district and students
societies and a bit of public relations.
The biggest event of that period was the
merger with the Society of Incorporated
Accountants: a massive change in scale
and activity. For example, in 1957 we had
new student recruitment of about 1,300;
in 1958 recruitment went up to some
3000; and the qualified membership
numbers were also transformed.
Without that merger, Thornton
Baker (now Grant Thornton) would
not have happened. Baker and Co of
Leicester, had – as a former mixed firm
- the drive to grow by local and then
more distant mergers. Thornton and
6 | THE NEWSLETTER FOR FORMER PARTNERS OF GRANT THORNTON UK
Thornton of Oxford and the towns
around, with the history of having
grown with Morris Motors, became
another key partnership. Participants
in ICAEW summer courses were yet
another fruitful source. By the time
I was recruited in January 1971, the
firm had some 50 offices in England
and Wales and around 150 partners.
Not just a loose federation, nor just a
thundering herd as it was nicknamed in
the Establishment; but bound together
by common capital, profit sharing and
partner admission policies; some firms
joined as a means to buttress their client
lists against ‘big firm’ erosion; for others
it was a less uncertain way to recover
their capital commitment when, soon,
they were to retire; for yet others, access
to special skills (especially taxation and
management advisory services) that
might otherwise lead clients to look
elsewhere.
The future was decided within six or
seven months of my arrival. Two things
were on the firm’s list of jobs to be done
soon by me; a history and a student
recruitment brochure. As a historian
I ignored the former and, as a practice
builder, I wrote a recruitment booklet!
More significantly I very soon
became engaged in the big question:
“where do we go from here?” Acting
secretary to a small partner group and,
as a writer of a paper for the full partners
meeting in autumn 1971, I committed
convincingly to paper the group’s
conclusion that – at whatever cost – the
partnership should build itself up to be
effectively independent, rather than do
just enough to secure a reasonable deal
for absorption into one of the ‘big few’.
Frankly, I could not have hoped
for a better time to enjoy a ‘baptism of
fire’ in the management of a partnership
community.
I had taken the job because I liked
the people and the partnership concept.
Concepts are all very well, but we do not
live on theory. And Thornton Baker /
Grant Thornton, from the start, fulfilled
my wish to engage in a living partnership
/ community venture.
The structure has changed greatly
since I left in the 1980s. I hope that the
spirit has survived and, indeed, may
have been reinforced by the alliance with
Robson Rhodes.
Maybe some fellow group members
will add a bit of history about Robson
Rhodes.
Please let us know
YOUR NEWS!
P.S. I must not finish this note without
expressing appreciation to:
a. Above all, Jenny Dockree
(deceased) who brought solid
practice experience and was both
the rock and the public face of
my national office;
b. In the same setting, Peter
Hubbard, a colleague since 1955
and still a close friend.
c. Without exception, the leadership
of successive Managing Partners
and also Executive Supporting
Partners.
“By the time I was recruited in
January 1971, the firm had some
50 offices in England and Wales and
around 150 partners. Not just a loose
federation, nor just a thundering
herd as it was nicknamed in the
Establishment; but bound together
by common capital, profit sharing
and partner admission policies”.
Norman Bruckland
AUTUMN/WINTER 2013 | 7
Sally Gunnell
Sally Gunnell OBE, the only woman ever to hold
four major track titles concurrently – Olympic,
World, European and Commonwealth – recently
joined us at our Annual Advisory Women’s
Networking Evening, in London.
From analysis to action:
de-coding the high-performance
strategies of the mid-market
Describing how elite athletics is less
about one huge effort and more about
linking together a series of small
measures, to drive improvement, she
observed the parallels for business and
general well being. “Sustained change
comes in small, well-executed steps,”
she told us. “There are many benefits
to achieving better well being – a more
positive attitude, and more resilience
to stress, for a start”.
“There are many benefits
to achieving better well
being – a more positive
attitude, and more
resilience to stress,
for a start”.
Sally Gunnell OBE
Over the last year, Grant Thornton’s Agents of Growth
research – conducted in partnership with the Centre of
Economic Business and Research (CEBR) – has studied
the productive potential of dynamic medium-sized
businesses (MSBs).
Building on this data in 2013, we are
running a series of events around the
UK, where we invite clients and warm
targets to attend half day summits with
the purpose of gather their thoughts
on challenges and opportunities facing
the wider UK plc, linking to our
research collateral.
Event dates and speaker information
5 November 2013
Reading
Penta Hotel, Oxford Road, RG1 7RH
Panel speakers: Phil Smith, CEO of
Cisco Systems Ltd, John O’Hanlon,
CEO, Ridgeway Garages Newbury Ltd
Why are we doing this?
7 November 2013
We are looking to enhance our
reputation as the firm who understands
growth and who is proactively backing
the needs of MSBs; building on work we
have done into the significant, and more
importantly the ‘potential’, contribution
of UK MSBs to UK GDP.
By bringing MSB leaders together,
we are seeking to hear directly from
them about the real opportunities and
barriers they face today, to uncover
the strategies that the best businesses
are employing to drive real and
sustainable growth.
Our aim is ultimately to determine
what business leaders want and need to
happen in the UK to help them achieve
their potential.
Manchester
Concorde Conference Centre,
Panel speakers: Tim Bacon, CEO,
Living Ventures, Asif Hamid, CEO,
The Contact Company and Matthew
Moulding, CEO, The Hut Group.
26 November 2013
Birmingham
Edgbaston Cricket Ground,
Birmingham, B5 7QU
Panel speakers: Sir Albert Bore, Leader,
Birmingham City Council;
Gordon Johncox, Managing Director,
Aston Manor Brewery; Jason Wouhra,
Director, East End Foods
16 January 2014
London
Duck & Waffle,
Heron Tower, EC2N 4AY
Panel speakers: Michael Saunders,
CEO, Bibendum Wines Ltd;
Oliver Slipper, Joint CEO,
Perform Group plc
If you are interested in joining any of these
events please contact Louise Bennie
by email on [email protected],
or by phone on 020 7728 2021
8 | THE NEWSLETTER FOR FORMER PARTNERS OF GRANT THORNTON UK
AUTUMN/WINTER 2013 | 9
Thirdly I wanted to do some lecturing
on some of the M&A courses at a
business school. I thought I’d spent 30
years making lots of mistakes I could
probably share some of the learnings
from that with some MBA graduates!!!
Tony Harper interviews
David Brooks
So how have things worked out?
David, you’ve enjoyed a highly
successful career with Grant Thornton
lasting 37 years. Appointed partner
in Kettering office in 1973 at the age
of 25 and you remain the youngest
person to be appointed a partner in
the firm. You have held a range of
senior positions at different times,
including being Managing Partner
of Corby office and Milton Keynes
office, serving on the firm’s National
Executive with Sir Michael Lickiss,
as National Managing Partner, head
of London Lead Advisory and then
head of M&A for the firm.
Which of your many achievements
have given you the most satisfaction
do you think?
“We had a very small
budget and the partners
were not very keen to
have large advertising
campaigns and the like.
I think that over a 2 - 3
year period we transitioned
the Thornton Baker brand
to the Grant Thornton
brand very successfully
in the market place.”
David Brooks
It’s hard to choose, but I suspect my
first choice would be the role I had in
Milton Keynes. I had just come off
the Executive having done my five
years, the Milton Keynes office was an
underperforming business and probably
feeling a bit unloved, but in a great
location for Grant Thornton. I really
enjoyed working with the partner team
as we sought to develop the office, begin
to win more work and build our brand
in the market place. Over a four or five
year period we transformed the office
into one which was growing at 10/20%
a year, turning in good profits, with a
good broad range of clients and well
regarded in the market place and within
Grant Thornton.
10 | THE NEWSLETTER FOR FORMER PARTNERS OF GRANT THORNTON UK
I guess the other thing I’m very
proud of is my involvement in the
process, in the mid 1980s, whereby
Thornton Baker, as we were then, and
Alexander Grant, an American firm,
decided to change their name and
practise as Grant Thornton in both
the UK and the US. I was very pleased
to lead the marketing team with the
responsibility of promoting the change
from the old brand to the new one.
We had a very small budget and the
partners were not very keen to have
large advertising campaigns and the like.
I think that over a 2 - 3 year period we
transitioned the Thornton Baker brand
to the Grant Thornton brand very
successfully in the market place.
David, when you were approaching
retirement, did you have to think
long and hard about what you
wanted to do next.
No! I’ve always really enjoyed working
with clients. I’ve enjoyed that side of
work more than the management side
and so I always had it in mind to
have a career post retirement from
Grant Thornton with three ingredients,
if possible. I was keen to be involved
with companies, probably as non-exec
and maybe as an investing non-exec.
Secondly, I wanted to be part of an
organisation, to keep some of that team
spirit. I am not a loner, I enjoy working
with other people, so I wanted to have a
house or an environment where I could
work in a team doing my M&A deals.
Well, I am a partner in Wyvern Partners,
which is a 12 person corporate finance
boutique based in Mayfair. I knew one
of the partners, Martin Kitcatt, and he
asked me to join them. I knew Martin
from the time when he was head of
Corporate Finance at Andersen then
Deloitte and I tried to recruit him for
Grant Thornton, but failed!
My non-exec roles came about in a
completely different way. I’m a director
at Everards Brewery in Leicester,
a brewery and property company.
That opportunity came about through a
lawyer I played hockey with for about
30 years, who rang me up and asked me
to put my name forward for a non-exec
position that they had. I was successful.
Another non-exec role came through
my profile in the healthcare space.
I had done a lot of work in M&A in
Healthcare for 10 years and a company
owner asked if I’d like to join the board.
My third non-exec is a food company
I had helped try and sort a family
squabble about 10 years ago.
I failed but the problem didn’t go away
and the family seemed to think I could
add some value, so I joined that board.
I have completely failed, however, in
my original aim to do some lecturing!
I would add that from my recent
experience of Big 4 firms, as a non-exec
of companies that are typical
Grant Thornton clients, the firm has
absolutely nothing to fear in terms
of comparison of performance. Our
technical standards and quality of service
are every bit as good, if not better.
David, what ideas or advice might
you have for Grant Thornton partners
coming up for retirement?
David your work responsibilities
The key thing Tony, is to plan ahead and
that takes a lot of time. I received some
really good advice from friends and from
my wife, that I should spend time, long
before I retired from Grant Thornton,
thinking about what I wanted to do and
moulding my CV to reflect the roles I
was thinking of moving towards.
I don’t think you get non-exec roles by
applying to adverts; I haven’t applied
to any. I think they best come through
your network or through your sector
interests, something where you have an
advantage already, you have an interest,
you’re known. Getting started early is
very difficult because you’ve got the
day job with Grant Thornton who are
paying you but actually you’ve got to
realise there is life beyond
Grant Thornton.
sport, do you work hard at finding
obviously still take up a lot of time,
but what about hobbies and playing
time for sports and interests?
I have played more golf recently. I have
taken time to go off on golf trips with
friends and subject to a vote at our club’s
AGM in December this year, I will be
captain of The Leicestershire golf club
in two years’ time.
Thank you David. I know your many
friends at Grant Thornton will be
delighted to hear about what you’ve
been up to since you retired from the
firm, and will be unsurprised at how
little you appear to have slowed down
from a work perspective!
You can email David at
[email protected]
or by phone on 07976 994305
AUTUMN/WINTER 2013 | 11
Forthcoming events
London alumni event
As part of the firm’s support for partners in the years leading to retirement, we are planning workshops
and other events on topics of interest. These sessions are open to our partner alumni. Spaces are limited,
but if you are interested please contact Anabela Goncalves on 020 7865 2147.
Date
Audience
Event
Information
Venue
Tuesday 26
November
CEOs and FDs
Executive Reward in
Tech Sector Breakfast
Format: Breakfast seminar Speakers: Amanda Flint
Timings: 8.00am-11.00am Capacity: 70
GT host: Amanda Flint
Euston office
Thursday 28
November
Clients and contacts
NFP NED Interchange
in association with the
Guardian
Format: Forum Speakers: tbc
Timings: 3.15pm-7.00pm Capacity: 60
GT host: Carol Rudge
Royal Society of
Medicine, London
Wednesday 4
December
Clients and contacts
Client Technical Seminar
Format: Seminar Speakers: tbc
Timings: 8.15am-10.30am Capacity: 90
GT host: Harold Wilson
7th Floor Finsbury
Square
Format: Seminar Speakers: tbc
Timings: 3.30pm-7.00pm Capacity: 60
GT host: Carol Rudge
8th Floor Grant
Thornton House
Thursday 5
December
Clients and contacts
NFP Seminar: Tax/VAT/
Employee Issues Update
Grant Thornton’s summer alumni reunion
held on 17 July at Vista rooftop bar,
The Trafalgar Hotel.
“I had a most enjoyable evening . I thought there was a good
range of ages attending and a number of partners who I hadn’t
seen for quite a while ; which was great. All that I spoke to
enjoyed the evening though one or two said they had hoped there
would be more of their/our vintage.” – Tony Harper
“What an excellent evening we all had last night at the
alumni function at the Trafalgar hotel. I great choice of venue
and impeccable organisation meant the evening was smooth and
successful throughout. Furthermore there was a large turnout
with so many people to catch up with that the evening could
have gone on well into the small hours. Could you please pass on
my thanks for all the hard work behind the scenes that made the
evening so memorable. - Michael Rogerson.
If you would like to know who will be at the next Alumni
reunion please join your LinkedIn group to keep up to date.
12 | THE NEWSLETTER FOR FORMER PARTNERS OF GRANT THORNTON UK
AUTUMN/WINTER 2013 | 13
Linkedin
update
Linked in
Partner alumni
golf event
There are 76 members to date and over
30 discussions including:
•· Thornton Baker newsletter
•· Golf day photos
•· Grant Thornton internal magazine
•· Not for Profit events
•· Summer alumni event photos
•· Updates on former colleagues
•· Obituary notices
Your Linkedin group
went live in May 2013
comments from Norman Bruckland.
We would very much like you to
comment and share your reminiscences
as we continue to share these newsletters
with you.
We have also been keeping you
up-to-date on all Grant Thornton recent
activities and initiatives.
Look out for our update early
next year on the next Alumni event,
where it will take place and who will
be attending.
Over the next six months we will
be posting up on the Alumni group
discussion page backdated issues of
partnership
with
Grant in
Thornton’s
internal magazines
in partnership with
If you are interested in joining our LinkedIn
starting from 1972. The first to be
Group please contact Anabela Goncalves
posted up was the 1972 Thornton
by email at [email protected]
Baker newsletter which had some great
or by phone on 020 7865 2147
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14 | THE NEWSLETTER FOR FORMER PARTNERS OF GRANT THORNTON UK
November 2013
The second Grant Thornton Alumni Golf Society (GTAGS) golf day
was held at Finham GC, near Coventry, on 9 May. There were 25 attendees,
and the other two who joined us at the presentation dinner.
The golf club was very hospitable and
the course was beautiful. Its condition
was excellent, bearing in mind the
adverse UK weather in the previous few
months. However, it was very windy
with strong gusts throughout the day
and intermittent rain. That being so, the
winning score (on a count back) of 37
points was extremely impressive. Indeed,
the scoring overall was very good and
we have a number of golfers in GTAGS
who are clearly handy with a wedge!
The winner this year was Richard
Chaplin. Second (but also on 37) was
Patrick Brooke and third was Hemant
Parmar (34). GTAGS now have a
lovely silver trophy which the winner
retains for a year – but who also gets
an individual trophy (this year a glass
engraved tankard) to keep.
But, as lovely as our Trophy is,
it did not compare to the other golf
trophy that was on display during our
yummy after golf dinner! Our guest
speaker was Dr Phil Weaver OBE,
Chairman of the PGA, and he talked
about a golf event that he has been
a “big cheese” in for many years now
– the Ryder Cup – and yes, he brought
that Cup with him and we all got a
photo opportunity! We could write a
lot about it but space does not permit.
Suffice it just to say – WOW!
Everyone enjoyed the bonhomie
of the day and it was a good test of golf.
So, if you have a set of clubs and want
to join GTAGS then come along and
join us next time!
Venue
The use of social media:
is it a Royal Society of Medicine
Panellists:
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the not 1 Wimpole Street
Dafnato
Bonas
London
Nicola
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Panellists:
Dafna Bonas
3.00pm Registration
Nicola Dodd
7.00pm Close Karla Geci
If you are interested in joining our Golf
Society please contact Lynda Charleton
by email at [email protected]
or by phone on 01603 203273.
Jennifer Begg
RSVP Katie Sirdifield
Panellists:
Grant Thornton UK LLP
Dafna Bonas
T 020 7728
2369
Nicola
Dodd
E [email protected]
Karla Geci
Jennifer Begg
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Dafna Bonas
Nicola Dodd
Nicola Dodd
Panellists:
Karla Geci
Karla Geci
AUTUMN/WINTER 2013 | 15
Reason says:
there are three
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