Neil McCubbin Altamaha Riverkeeper vs. GA EDP

Transcription

Deposition of:
Neil McCubbin
March 29, 2016
In the Matter of:
Altamaha Riverkeeper vs. GA EDP
Tiffany Alley, A Veritext Company
1075 Peachtree St. NE , Suite 3625
Atlanta, GA, 30309
800.808.4958 | [email protected] | 770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
March 29, 2016
Page 1
1
IN THE OFFICE OF STATE ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
STATE OF GEORGIA
2
3
ALTAMAHA RIVERKEEPER, INC.,
4
Petitioner,
5
vs.
CASE NO. OSAH-BNR-EPD-WQC
1633136-11-SCHROER
6
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
DIVISION, GEORGIA DEPARTMENT OF
7
NATURAL RESOURCES,
8
9
10
Respondent,
and
RAYONIER PERFORMANCE FIBERS, LLC,
11
Intervenor-Respondent.
12
13
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
14
NEIL McCUBBIN
15
March 29, 2016 - 8:34 a.m.
16
State Bar of Georgia
17
104 Marietta Street NW, Suite 100
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Atlanta, Georgia
19
Patricia K. Thomas, RPR, CCR-2626
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800.808.4958
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Neil McCubbin
March 29, 2016
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INDEX OF EXHIBITS
2
EXHIBIT
DESCRIPTION
3
For the Petitioner:
4
Exhibit Pet 1
PAGE
Direct Testimony of Neil
9
5
McCubbin, with attached McCubbin
6
Exhibits 1 through 7
7
For the Respondent:
8
Exhibit Res 1
Report issued by Mr. McCubbin to
68
9
Northern Pulp Nova Scotia,
10
6 April 2015, with attached resume'
11
Exhibit Res 2
Google Earth photographs
92
12
13
14
15
INDEX TO EXAMINATION
16
BY MR. BROWN
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BY MS. BARMEYER
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BY MR. BARRON
8, 117
29
111
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APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
On behalf of the Petitioner:
3
HUTTON BROWN
4
Attorney at Law
5
GreenLaw
6
State Bar of Georgia Building
7
104 Marietta Street NW
8
Suite 430
9
Atlanta, Georgia
10
30303
(404) 659-3122
11
DONALD D.J. STACK
12
Attorney at Law
13
Stack & Associates, PC
14
260 Peachtree Street NW
15
Suite 1200
16
Atlanta, Georgia
30303
17
(404) 525-9205
18
19
MEGAN L. HINKLE
20
Attorney at Law
21
Southern Environmental Law Center
22
Ten 10th Street NW
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Suite 1050
24
Atlanta, Georgia
25
(404) 521-9900
30309
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March 29, 2016
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2
APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
(Continued)
On behalf of the Respondent:
3
GRAHAM L. BARRON
4
Attorney at Law
5
State of Georgia
6
Office of the Attorney General
7
40 Capitol Square SW
8
Atlanta, Georgia
9
(404) 656-3300
30334
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On behalf of the Intervenor-Respondent:
11
PATRICIA T. BARMEYER
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Attorney at Law
13
King & Spalding, LLP
14
1180 Peachtree Street
15
Atlanta, Georgia 30309
16
(404) 572-4600
17
18
WILLIAM M. McHUGH, JR.
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Attorney at Law
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Rayonier Advanced Materials, Inc.
21
4474 Savannah Highway
22
Jesup, Georgia
23
(912) 588-8222
31545
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Also Present:
James A. Capp
2
Bill Manzer
3
Mark Raczkowski
4
Leo Mileman, Videographer
5
Jen Hilburn
(Via Telephone)
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(Pursuant to Article 10(B) of the Rules
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and Regulations of the Georgia Board of Court
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Reporting, a written disclosure statement was
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submitted by the court reporter to all counsel
24
present at the proceeding.)
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
We are now on the
2
record.
3
sensitive and may pick up whispering and private
4
conversations.
5
place them away from the microphones, as they can
6
interfere with the deposition audio.
7
will continue until all parties agree to go off the
8
record.
9
Please note that the microphones are
Please turn off all cell phones or
Recording
My name is Leo Mileman, representing
10
Veritext Legal Solutions.
The date today is
11
March 29th, 2016.
12
8:34 a.m.
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Georgia State Bar located at 104 Marietta Street,
14
Third Floor, Room 2, Atlanta, Georgia 30303.
15
being taken by counsel for the -- Defendant or
16
Plaintiff?
The time is approximately
This deposition is being held at the
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MR. BROWN:
18
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
19
counsel for the Plaintiff.
20
case is Altamaha Riverkeeper versus GA EPD.
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case is being held in the Office of State
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Administration Hearings, State of Georgia, Case
23
Number OSAH-BNR-EPD-WQC 1633136-11-SCHROER.
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name of the witness is -- is it Doctor?
25
Plaintiff.
It's
MR. MCCUBBIN:
No.
Petitioner.
And it's being taken by
The caption of this
This
The
It's Neil McCubbin.
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
Neil McCubbin.
At this
2
time the attorneys present in the room and anyone
3
attending remotely will identify themselves and the
4
parties they represent.
5
6
MR. BROWN:
Brown.
7
8
MS. HINKLE:
Megan Hinkle, one of the
MR. BARRON:
I'm Graham Barron, on behalf
of the Environmental Protection Division.
MR. CAPP:
Jac Capp.
I work with the
Georgia Environmental Protection Division.
15
MR. RACZKOWSKI:
16
with Rayonier Advanced Materials.
17
18
MR. MANZER:
I'm Mark Raczkowski.
I'm
William Manzer, with Rayonier
Advanced materials.
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20
I'm a
lawyers for the riverkeeper.
13
14
I'm Donald Stack.
lawyer for the riverkeeper.
11
12
My name is Hutton
I'm one of the lawyers for the riverkeeper.
MR. STACK:
9
10
Okay.
MR. McHUGH:
Bill McHugh, Rayonier
Advanced Materials in-house attorney.
21
MS. BARMEYER:
Patricia Barmeyer,
22
representing the Respondent, Rayonier Performance
23
Fibers.
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
Thank you.
The court
reporter -- our court reporter, Patricia Thomas,
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representing Veritext Legal Solutions, will swear
2
in the witness, and we can proceed.
3
4
(Whereupon the witness was sworn in by the
court reporter.)
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MR. BROWN:
All right.
So this is going
6
to be the videotaped deposition for use at the
7
hearing of Petitioner's expert witness, Neil
8
McCubbin.
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NEIL McCUBBIN,
10
having been first duly sworn, was examined and
11
testified as follows:
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EXAMINATION
MR. BROWN:
Q
Mr. McCubbin, will you state your name for
the record.
16
A
My name is Neil McCubbin.
17
Q
Where do you live?
18
A
In Foster, Quebec, Canada.
19
Q
Mr. McCubbin, I'm going to show you your
20
written direct testimony and ask you to look at
21
that and confirm for the record that that is
22
indeed -- this copy right here.
23
MS. BARMEYER:
24
MR. BROWN:
25
A
Are you going to mark that?
Yeah.
This is -- appears to be the written
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direct testimony.
I'm not going to take time to
2
read it all through.
I've read it many times.
3
Q
And the exhibits are attached?
4
A
The exhibits are attached.
On a quick
5
look, they appear to be as were previously
6
submitted to you.
7
MR. BROWN:
Okay.
We're going to, I
8
suppose, mark this as Exhibit 1 to this evidentiary
9
deposition, and we'll have to sort out later how we
10
number his actual exhibits when we get a joint
11
exhibit list.
12
13
Is that okay?
MS. BARMEYER:
Yeah.
Why don't you label
it Petitioner's Exhibit 1.
14
MR. BROWN:
That's fine.
Do you want to
15
do that now, or do you want to wait until we break
16
to label it?
17
(Off-the-record discussion.)
18
(Petitioner's Exhibit 1 marked.)
19
MR. BROWN:
Also, Counsel, in response to
20
the objections that Rayonier filed for this
21
testimony, I'm going to have a handful of questions
22
to respond to those objections, if that's
23
satisfactory with you.
24
MS. BARMEYER:
25
Sure.
That's fine.
BY MR. BROWN:
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Q
Mr. McCubbin, you know that after you did
2
your written direct there were objections lodged by
3
Rayonier?
4
A
That's correct.
5
Q
Okay.
I've seen the document.
So what we're going to do now is
6
talk through a few of the subject matters of the
7
objections.
8
I've tried to organize them by subject matter, and
9
I'm going to ask you to respond to some of the
10
objections.
11
We're not going to go one by one.
Okay?
All right.
So a number of the objections
12
deal with your expertise to talk about water
13
quality issues resulting from the Rayonier
14
discharge into the river, including objections --
15
I'm just going to read out the ones I'm responding
16
to.
17
paragraph 77, sentence 2.
18
look at these, Mr. McCubbin.
19
sentences 1 and 3; paragraph 84, sentence 2;
20
paragraph 87; 88; 107, sentence 2; 108, the last
21
sentence; 163, sub B; 163, sub G; and 163, sub H.
Paragraph 9, sentence 2; paragraph 54;
22
And you don't need to
Paragraph 83,
Those objections deal in part with your
23
qualifications to talk about water quality issues
24
related to discharge.
25
tell the Court generally about your experience as
So let me ask you:
Can you
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it relates to talking about the effect of pulp mill
2
discharge, the effect that has on receiving water?
3
And then I'll get into specifics after you talk
4
generally about your experience.
5
A
Well, somewhere around 90 percent of my
6
professional work over the last 50 years has been
7
dealing with wastewater from pulp mills.
In a good
8
number of these projects, the issue was:
There's a
9
problem in the receiving water.
10
What do we do
about it?
11
Sometimes we're litigating against people.
12
Sometimes we're just helping defend mills.
Most
13
commonly, trying to find solutions to problems
14
raised by regulators, which naturally meant I had
15
to dig into the current what was happening in the
16
river.
17
Q
And how long have you been doing that?
18
A
The first time I worked in the pulp and
19
paper wastewater was 1966.
20
Rayonier in a pulp mill, but that mill paid no
21
attention to its wastewater at the time.
22
I previously worked for
The first time I was really involved in
23
river quality itself was when I worked for Beak
24
Consultants in 1970, because at that point all of
25
the new mills in Canada, the regulations
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essentially said you've got to look after the
2
river.
3
assimilative capacity of rivers for the pulp mill
4
wastewater of the day, calculations on what it
5
would do to oxygen content, working with biologists
6
on the impact in a benthic and the fish
7
populations.
8
9
So I had been involved in working on
Throughout -- from then on, I'd have to
guess roughly a third of the projects I worked on,
10
I was involved in the receiving water quality as
11
well as dealing with controlling the wastewater
12
discharges.
13
Q
All right.
At my request -- and I'm happy
14
to show this to counsel.
15
write up a list of specific projects where you've
16
worked on water quality issues?
17
A
Yeah.
But did I ask you to
You asked me on the phone.
I made
18
a quick list, which I think you have in your hand
19
there.
20
Q
All right.
21
A
The information is really all in my
22
23
resume', which Rayonier already has in Exhibit 1.
Q
I want to just talk about it a little more
24
specifically.
So my question is now:
Can you talk
25
about some specific instances in which your work
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has required you to deal with water quality issues
2
resulting from pulp wastewater?
3
A
Yes.
4
Q
And if you need this to refresh your
5
memory --
6
A
7
8
9
Yeah, if you have it handy there.
Thanks.
You just want me to run through them?
Q
Well, my question is:
Tell the Court some
specific instances in which your experience goes to
10
assessing water quality issues from pulp mill
11
wastewater.
12
A
Okay.
Well, the -- one of the more
13
recent, more spectacular, I was called to testify
14
in the International Court of Justice in The Hague
15
concerning a dispute between Argentina and Uruguay
16
over a large pulp mill on the River Uruguay.
17
Argentina insisted that this was going to destroy
18
the river and do various terrible things.
19
disputed.
20
"testify."
21
presenting final arguments on behalf of Uruguay,
22
which is normal for engineers to present arguments
23
before courts in the States, but that's the way the
24
ICJ works.
25
record in both French and English.
This was
And I was called -- actually, I said
That's not quite true.
I was
The whole presentation I made is on
You can find it
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on the ICJ website.
2
In that case we were very specifically
3
arguing that the mill would do no measurable damage
4
to the river.
5
chemistry in relationship to the mill effluent,
6
relating the potential impact of the mill effluent
7
to other effluents.
8
same general scale as the Mississippi.
9
lots of sources of industrial and domestic
10
This involved looking at the water
This is a huge river, on the
There's
pollution.
11
Q
Before you finish --
12
A
Yeah.
13
Q
-- completing your answer, we're going to
14
segregate out and talk separately about any of your
15
specific experience that deals with fish tainting
16
issues.
So I want --
17
A
Okay.
18
Q
If anything on your list is that, let's
19
hold that to the next category of objections.
20
A
Okay.
21
Q
But keep going.
22
A
The other one was I was retained by UNIDO
23
to do a study on the Baikalsk mill in Siberia.
24
It's on Lake Baikalsk, which is a uniquely clean
25
body of water.
The water is a lot clearer than the
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famous Lake Tahoe, for example, and the Russians
2
are very keen to look after it.
3
to close the plant down.
4
There was a move
So I was one of a team of six, looking at
5
the effects on the lake and what -- how they were
6
handling their wastewater, including meetings with
7
Russian environmental groups that are the rough
8
equivalent of Greenpeace, and discussing their
9
concerns, taking them out on the lake and showing
10
them what we could see.
11
didn't do any diving, but we had pictures from
12
scuba divers.
13
And in that case, we
Another case was many years ago at New
14
Richmond in Quebec.
15
owned by Consolidated-Bathurst.
16
was the effluent discharge and a -- what effect it
17
was having on the receiving water.
18
included scuba diving on the outfall to see what
19
was to be seen and assessing, along with some
20
biologists, what was happening around the outfall.
21
22
At the time, the mill was
The issue there
The work
That one is not described as such in my
resume', I don't believe.
What else?
23
In Lake Champlain, the State of Vermont
24
retained us to assist in a case before a special
25
master of the U.S. Supreme Court over the
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Ticonderoga pulp mill.
2
looking at the -- although it's technically a lake
3
there, it's almost a slow-moving river.
4
narrow.
5
physically see what was happening around, as well
6
as looking at the various data collected by the
7
technicians on benthic conditions.
8
looking at any fish stuff in that, but that was 40
9
years ago or something there around.
10
And, once again, we were
It's very
We ended up diving on the outfall there to
I don't recall
I was one of the environmental impact
11
assessment team for a new bleached kraft mill in
12
Montes del Plata in Uruguay.
13
running.
14
river -- of the mill on the river, and I was
15
heavily involved in that one.
16
or five years ago.
17
The mill is now
We had to assess the impact of the
That was about four
I was retained by Tory and Tory, one of
18
the major legal firms in Toronto, to assess the
19
risks involved -- or the environmental risks
20
involved in their client purchasing a former
21
Kimberly-Clark mill in Terrace Bay, Ontario.
22
most people buying industrial plants these days,
23
they wanted to see if they're liable to get bitten
24
by latent environmental litigation.
25
Like
One of the things probably most relevant
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to this special case of the Altamaha in Jesup is I
2
spent close to 10 years working on the problem of
3
fish being tainted and whether the taste of the
4
fish flesh was being spoiled by pulp mill effluent.
5
This was in Kitimat, on the west coast of British
6
Columbia.
7
amount of actual scientific work done on fish
8
tainting I've ever seen.
9
In that case there was by far the most
It's very common to get fishermen to
10
complain that the fish tastes bad.
11
in the Altamaha.
12
complaints, and it was formalized.
13
looking at what the mill could be doing.
14
retained by Environment Canada on behalf of a local
15
aboriginal band.
16
They have that
In this case, there were
And we started
I was
What the mill could do, we had a great
17
debate.
18
believe a couple of million dollars in lab work,
19
trying to identify the actual substances in the
20
waste causing the fish tainting.
21
then try and remove them.
22
We spent -- the mill themselves spent I
The plan was to
They failed to find any specific
23
substances.
There were various theories about
24
terpenes and alpha-pinene and various other
25
chemicals.
Each time that substance was tested on
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its own, it had minimal effect on the fish.
2
came to conclude or prove, really, that we don't --
3
MS. BARMEYER:
Objection.
We
This -- I think
4
the testimony is going beyond the scope of the
5
question.
6
MR. BROWN:
7
THE WITNESS:
8
MR. BROWN:
9
hold off on the fish.
10
THE WITNESS:
11
MR. BROWN:
12
THE WITNESS:
13
MR. BROWN:
14
THE WITNESS:
15
She's correct.
Okay.
What I wanted you to do was to
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
And -Yeah.
Sorry.
I was looking
down the list here.
16
MS. BARMEYER:
But also just as a general
17
matter, this is not an opportunity to expand on the
18
written direct testimony.
19
allowed to ask questions about the scope of his
20
expertise --
21
MR. BROWN:
22
MS. BARMEYER:
23
objections.
24
BY MR. BROWN:
25
Q
You're, at this point,
Right.
-- in response to the
What we're focusing on now, Mr. McCubbin,
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is your experience and your expertise in water
2
quality issues.
3
A
Uh-huh.
4
Q
You don't have to go into all of the --
5
A
Sorry.
6
Q
-- details.
7
A
I'm sorry.
8
Q
But just -- are there any more -- are
9
10
Yeah.
there any more -- and we don't have to do an
exhaustive list.
11
It is in your c.v.
Anything else in terms of water quality
12
issues in general before I turn to the fish
13
tainting in specific?
14
A
Yeah.
Well, the -- I guess the last one
15
we've got on the list here.
There was a Water
16
Working Group set up by Environment Canada.
17
a mixture of stakeholders, industry, environmental
18
groups, regulators, to discuss what to do next
19
with -- what had to be regulated further, if
20
anything, with Canadian pulp and paper mills.
21
this -- the whole point was:
22
have in the river?
Not just "river."
23
waters in general.
And I was invited to join that
24
so that we could decide what -- based on a huge
25
amount of data that Canada has, what should be done
It was
And
What problems do we
Receiving
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next.
2
Q
Okay.
My next question is to focus on the
3
specific objections that they -- that Rayonier has
4
made to your --
5
6
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
Excuse me.
Off the
video record at 8:50 a.m.
7
(Recess 8:50 a.m. to 8:51 a.m.)
8
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
Back on the record at
MR. BROWN:
Mr. McCubbin, I had
9
8:51 a.m.
10
Okay.
11
started a question, but let me just restart it.
12
BY MR. BROWN:
13
Q
There were objections from Rayonier to
14
some of your testimony that talked specifically
15
about fish tainting and odor issues in your written
16
direct, including objections to paragraph 83,
17
sentence 3; 91, sentences 2 and 3; paragraphs 92,
18
93, 94; paragraph 163 C-2.
19
To an extent, you included some of your
20
experience on fish tainting investigation in your
21
last answer, so you don't need to repeat that.
22
can you amplify and explain your experience that
23
would allow you to testify to the Court about fish
24
tainting and odor issues from pulp mill discharge?
25
A
But
Well, the first time I was involved in
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that was back in the '70s when I worked with Beak
2
Consultants.
3
And the mill no longer exists, by the way, if you
4
want to look for it.
5
fish in the St. Lawrence River despite the huge
6
size of the St. Lawrence, and I was one of the team
7
investigating.
8
my resume'.
9
A Domtar mill at Cornwall in Ontario.
It had problems with tainting
Later on -- I do believe that's in
Another one that's certainly not in the
10
resume' was Crestbrook Forest Industries in
11
Skookumchuck, British Columbia.
12
to help them deal with problems of complaints of
13
color and fish tainting in the river.
14
quite small river in relation to the Altamaha.
15
in that case the fish tainting issues were simply
16
ones the fishermen complained, and we tried taking
17
a couple of fish.
18
fine.
19
terrible and, of course, tasted terrible.
20
Sure enough.
Cook it and cut it open.
They retained me
They're on a
And
The fish looked
It smelled
There was no scientific testing done of
21
fish tainting then, which is true of most of these
22
complaints.
23
Eurocan did a vast amount of scientific testing.
24
25
The one I mentioned previously in
These are the ones I can recall right now
of fish tainting was a key -- as a major issue.
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Q
That's fine.
All right.
I want to turn
2
now to the category of objections to your written
3
direct testimony relating to your taking into
4
account complaints from citizens about the Rayonier
5
discharge, including objections to paragraph 4,
6
sentence 2 and 3; paragraph 21, sentence 2;
7
paragraph 91, sentence 1; and paragraph 60,
8
sentence 2.
9
Can you explain for the Court why reports
10
of people complaining about color and odor from
11
discharge would be relevant to you as an
12
environmental expert on pulp wastewater?
13
MS. BARMEYER:
I object to that question.
14
I think it goes beyond the scope of laying the
15
foundation or dealing with his expertise.
16
this is more in the nature of substantive testimony
17
to justify his opinions.
18
MR. BROWN:
I think
I object on that basis.
Let me -- I'll just explain
19
why I'm doing it.
20
incorporation of those statements from other people
21
as hearsay.
22
allows an expert to rely on inadmissible material
23
that's reasonably relied upon by experts in the
24
field.
25
You objected to his
The OSAH rule on expert testimony
So I want to try to create a foundation to
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respond to your objection by having him testify
2
about the reasons for him relying on such
3
statements in reaching his opinions.
4
only opportunity now to lay a foundation in
5
response to your objection.
6
MS. BARMEYER:
This is my
Well, then I would -- I
7
think you probably can rephrase the question to be
8
more of a process question than a substantive
9
question about his testimony here, but more of a --
10
more directed to what is -- what he would consider
11
reliable.
12
MR. BROWN:
All right.
I'll try to
13
respond -- I'll try to rephrase my question.
14
BY MR. BROWN:
15
Q
So, Mr. McCubbin, what we're getting at
16
here is the objection to your reliance and
17
utilization of complaints from people who have used
18
the river in reaching the conclusions you reached.
19
Can you tell the Court why such
20
information or such data might be important to
21
someone who is assessing wastewater effects?
22
A
Well, the people I've met and also videos
23
I've looked at represent a variety of people using
24
the river, so it's not one opinion.
25
important.
That's
They also used the river multiple times
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spread over years.
2
river.
3
a dozen times total, at specific times.
4
it's -- in assessing whether there's a real
5
problem, you've got to consider if it's widespread
6
because it makes no sense to respond to one
7
complainer.
8
everywhere.
9
I, obviously, don't live on the
I have been on the river only perhaps half
Q
So I think
You can always find one complainer
If you want to do an assessment on
10
environmental impact of pulp mill discharge, is it
11
reasonable to include in your assessment reports
12
from people who actually use the river?
13
A
I think so.
Firsthand reports are
14
valuable from people whose word I have no reason to
15
doubt.
16
Q
I'm going to -- another category of
17
objections we're going to ask you about is, there
18
were several objections to your qualifications to
19
talk about the profitability of the Rayonier
20
product and the cost of alternative technologies,
21
including objections at paragraph 46 and paragraph
22
136, sentence 3.
23
Can you tell the Court a little bit about
24
your qualifications to talk about those two
25
subjects?
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A
Well, most of the -- some of the
2
information I have is confidential, but some very
3
public statements have been made by Rayonier about
4
the profitability of their special products, in
5
particular when they spent $300 million,
6
approximately, a few years ago to convert the
7
production line C from making diaper grade pulp to
8
making dissolving pulp.
9
public statements extensively about they were doing
They were -- they made
10
this to -- because it was profitable and,
11
obviously, the increased profitability of the mill.
12
They're not stupid.
13
expected it to decrease profitability.
14
They wouldn't do it if they
With respect to my ability to know about
15
costs of external treatment, I've done -- or not --
16
sorry.
17
chunk in my career working out technologies and
18
costs for systems for feasibility studies, as many
19
engineers have.
20
Alternative treatments.
I've spent a good
One special situation I have is that
21
through the 1990s I was retained by EPA to
22
calculate the costs of various alternative
23
pollution control measures for all of the kraft
24
pulp mills in the United States.
25
were 88 mills.
At the time there
Rayonier was one of them.
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Part of that process, we did a very
2
detailed confidential questionnaire filled in by
3
each mill about their physical situation, their
4
chemical usages, and so on.
5
cost model.
6
There were a couple of young guys working -- or a
7
young lady that was actually working for me, and we
8
estimated the cost of -- as best I recall, 15 or
9
more technologies' technical improvements and also
From that, I built a
I was the leader engineer on it.
10
wastewater treatment upgrades for every mill
11
individually.
12
and equations, which are public.
13
mill numbers, of course, are not.
14
We developed from that some curves
The individual
I think that gave me a better knowledge of
15
the cost of these things than probably any other
16
single individual in North America.
17
Q
A couple more questions, Mr. McCubbin.
18
There were several objections to your testimony
19
regarding the study in the permit, including
20
objections at 158 and 163, sub H, sentence 2,
21
objecting to your testimony about the length of the
22
study, how long the study might take.
23
Can you explain why you have
24
qualifications or expertise to talk about how long
25
a study might -- such a study might take?
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A
Well, ever since I joined Beak Consultants
2
in 1970, I've been involved in studies of this
3
nature.
4
an issue in the receiving water, in this case, of
5
course, a river, for some party to want some
6
further studies on it.
7
studies are designed to delay regulatory action
8
rather than achieve anything.
9
sides of the table in such studies.
10
Sadly, quite often the
I've worked on both
I've seen all
too many of them that go on too long.
11
12
It's extremely common to -- when there is
Specifically looking at the Rayonier
study, there's a series of statements there.
13
MS. BARMEYER:
I'm going to object as
14
being beyond the scope of this opportunity to
15
question him.
16
17
18
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q
Just -- if you could finish your answer,
19
just focusing on your expertise and your experience
20
with studies, not necessarily commenting on the
21
Rayonier study itself.
22
A
Okay.
I've worked on many such studies
23
when -- some publicly reported major ones, some
24
much more between a mill and a regulator where
25
there's nothing public.
I would have to guess I've
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been -- certainly more than 25.
2
50.
I've been involved in --
3
Q
Of studies?
4
A
Studies.
5
6
Probably more like
Yes.
It's part of my job.
That's part of my function as a consultant.
Q
All right.
My last question is:
There
7
were several objections to your testimony about the
8
effect of river flow on the discharge -- objection
9
to your qualifications to talk about the effect of
10
high flow, for example, on the discharge effects,
11
including paragraphs 83 and 84.
12
Can you just tell the Court a little bit
13
about your expertise to discuss the subject of the
14
effect of river flow levels on discharge?
15
A
Yeah.
I was quite surprised to see that
16
objection because, to me, it's high school
17
chemistry.
18
Engineering 101.
19
the level of color goes down.
20
It's not directly linear, but it's close enough for
21
practical purposes.
22
obvious and simple to do.
23
"expertise."
24
25
Certainly -- it was Chemical
When you dilute a colored waste,
MR. BROWN:
my questions.
That's well known.
What can I say?
Okay.
It's so
I wouldn't even call it
Counsel, that's all of
I'll turn the witness over to
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Ms. Barmeyer.
2
And, Mr. McCubbin, I just remind you to
3
please keep your voice up and speak slowly.
4
on one second.
5
6
MR. BROWN:
Yeah.
Hold
Mr. Stack reminds me.
7
We move to tender -- to admit this written direct
8
report.
9
It will be Petitioner's 1.
MS. BARMEYER:
We have certain objections
10
that have been noted, and we'll take those up with
11
the Court.
12
to admit this into evidence, but we do continue
13
with the objections as asserted.
And, obviously, the judge is not here
14
15
EXAMINATION
BY MS. BARMEYER:
16
Q
All right, Mr. McCubbin.
Good morning.
17
A
Good morning.
18
Q
My name is Patricia Barmeyer.
Good morning.
We met a
19
few minutes ago.
20
Rayonier Performance Fibers in connection with this
21
matter, and I have a few questions to ask you
22
today.
23
And, as you know, I represent
And, of course, I'm aware of your years of
24
experience, but I want to ask you a few questions.
25
Your degree, of course, is in engineering; correct?
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A
Correct.
2
Q
And you're a registered professional
3
engineer in Canada?
4
A
I am.
5
Q
Do you claim to be an expert in riverine
6
ecology?
7
A
I have been -- acquired quite a bit of
8
expertise in the impact of pulp mills on rivers.
9
Riverine ecology is a whole -- no; because all of
10
my work has been related to pulp mill effects.
11
Q
All right.
And you do understand that
12
riverine ecology is a separate discipline, is it
13
not?
14
A
It's an -- not -- I wouldn't even call it
15
a discipline.
16
variety of people.
17
Engineers.
18
discipline of riverine ecology in my view.
19
have worked in that, it's always been a team.
20
Q
People that work in that are a huge
Biologists.
Microbiologists.
Exactly.
Toxicologists.
There's no one
When I
And when you have worked on
21
these studies and when you have looked at the
22
impact of pulp mill discharge on rivers, it's
23
generally been as a member of a team that included
24
people with other kinds of expertise; is that
25
correct?
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A
That's correct.
2
Q
So you would work with a team of people
3
that would include a toxicologist if you were
4
concerned with fish tainting, for example?
5
A
Technically toxicology is not to do with
6
tainting.
7
interfering with their breeding habits.
8
know of anyone with a specific degree in fish
9
tainting.
10
Q
It's to do with killing fish and
I don't
But are there people who have expertise in
11
fish and fisheries that are involved in studies
12
like that, in fish tainting studies?
13
A
The only ones I've met came from the
14
Department of Food, and their concern was fish
15
quality as produced in factories.
16
in that study at Eurocan, he kind of dropped out of
17
the picture and left it to us because he -- it was
18
just so different from his experience.
19
20
Q
All right.
They actually --
So giving -- using Eurocan as
an example, you worked on that study for years.
21
A
Yes.
22
Q
You said that the mill spent probably
23
$2 million in laboratory tests.
24
study with a team of people, did you not?
25
A
You worked on that
Yes.
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Q
And what were the other kinds of
2
disciplines that were involved that the people had
3
that they brought to that study?
4
A
There was a biologist from Environment
5
Canada, a biologist from -- initially Beak
6
Consultants, which changed its name to Ecometrics.
7
There were several -- two engineers from the mill.
8
I'm trying to think who else.
9
from Environment Canada.
That's a specific
10
individual, as I recall.
Well, there were a few
11
mill management people involved who were really not
12
in any scientific basis there.
Another engineer
13
Q
Right.
All right.
And the --
14
A
Sorry.
There were, of course, a number of
15
technicians carrying out most of the actual wet
16
chemistry work, catching fish and things like that.
17
Q
And in terms of that study, the design of
18
the fishing part of it, in other words, catching
19
the fish, analyzing the fish tissue, was that part
20
of the study done by somebody other than you?
21
A
Yeah.
The wet chemistry stuff was done
22
by -- the chemistry stuff was done by technicians,
23
experts in running the various machinery we needed
24
in doing the tests.
25
lab work physically with my hands for years.
I don't do -- I haven't done
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Q
What about the design of the fishing,
2
catching the fish, analyzing the fish for which
3
chemicals?
4
was involved in that part of the study?
Was there someone other than you that
5
A
6
with.
7
interpret the data, I was quite involved with.
8
9
10
Q
Catching the fish, I had nothing to do
Deciding how to analyze the data and
And were there scientists from other
disciplines that were involved in that process
along with you?
11
A
Of course.
12
Q
Of course.
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
All right.
15
Of course.
That's my question.
And did those other scientists that had
16
expertise in fisheries, did they design the study
17
in terms of what kind of fish were going to be
18
caught, how many, and where, and what sort of
19
analysis was going to be done?
20
A
It was a -- we had meetings, deciding what
21
to do, of which there were several participants and
22
different points of view, and we normally managed
23
to find a consensus.
24
25
Q
Okay.
But you were part of the team that
involved --
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A
Absolutely.
2
Q
And that team involved other experts in
3
the area of fisheries?
4
A
Of course.
5
Q
Of course.
Did you ever publish any
6
papers about either of these fish tainting
7
projects?
8
A
9
No.
There was nothing that -- Domtar and
Crestbrook Forest Industries, that was work done
10
with -- for the company, for the mill internally.
11
Any reports they got were --
12
Q
Are confidential?
13
A
-- their reports.
Eurocan stuff was for
14
Environment Canada.
I suspect the reports are
15
available under FOIA.
16
There was nothing published in terms of conferences
17
or anything like that.
I don't honestly know.
18
Q
Nothing that you published?
19
A
Nothing at all published, to my knowledge.
20
I wrote quite a number of reports, which -- being
21
Environment Canada, I suspect they are publicly
22
available, but they weren't published in journals
23
or conferences.
24
25
Q
Just online, I've seen a number of reports
about that study.
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A
Uh-huh.
2
Q
The Eurocan study.
But I don't find
3
any -- I didn't find any, either in your c.v. or
4
online, where you were one of the authors.
5
correct?
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
A
Is that
You mean -- I don't know how much
Environment Canada stuff is online.
Q
Well, I'm asking you.
Have you authored
yourself or coauthored studies or reports that have
been published about the Eurocan study?
A
Submitted to Environment Canada, yes.
Published?
I haven't published them.
13
Q
All right.
14
A
Exactly how much they have made available
15
16
on their website, I haven't, honestly, looked.
Q
Okay.
But are you aware that there are
17
published reports by others about the Eurocan
18
study?
19
A
Of course.
20
Q
All right.
Thank you.
21
On these fish tainting projects, would it
22
be correct to say that your role was to provide an
23
analysis of the mill operations and to develop
24
measures that could limit the discharge into the
25
receiving waters?
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A
To limit the fish tainting, yes, which, of
2
course, includes basically controlling the
3
discharge appropriately.
4
what's -- what really to control, because of the
5
lack of knowledge in specific substances causing
6
the tainting.
7
Q
Okay.
There's much debate about
I was very much involved in that.
But your role was really to
8
develop -- to look at the mill side of things and
9
to develop measures to limit the discharge.
10
11
12
Is
that not correct?
A
And including selecting which aspects of
the discharge to limit --
13
Q
All right.
14
A
-- which is fundamental to controlling the
15
tainting.
16
Q
Okay.
Now, you said in your testimony
17
that even after two years -- or years of study and
18
$2 million worth of laboratory tests, that the
19
study was not able to ascertain what were the
20
compounds or the constituents that were causing the
21
fish tainting; is that correct?
22
A
Correct.
23
Q
So sitting here today, you can't say
24
such-and-such a chemical caused fish tainting in
25
either one of those two studies?
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2
A
black liquor compounds.
3
4
5
6
7
Q
But you don't know what the constituents
A
Nobody knows what they are.
are?
But a
considerable -Q
8
9
We know it's a combination, a residual
Thank you.
MR. BROWN:
I'd like him to finish his
answer.
10
THE WITNESS:
A considerable number of the
11
substances in the pulp mill black liquor have not
12
been identified.
13
BY MS. BARMEYER:
14
15
16
Q
Black liquor has thousands of
constituents, does it not?
A
Hundreds?
I would -- I think it's -- I don't -- no
17
one really knows, because they haven't been
18
identified.
19
have trouble imagining thousands.
20
knows.
21
22
Q
I would suspect we think hundreds.
Okay.
All right.
I
But nobody
But my question is --
and I want to be sure I have an answer to it.
23
Neither one of those studies was able to
24
determine what were the constituents that were
25
causing the fish tainting?
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A
The individual constituents, no.
2
Q
Thank you.
I want to ask you about --
3
some more questions about fishing.
4
yourself a fisherman?
Do you consider
5
A
No.
6
Q
Have you ever been fishing?
7
A
Sure.
I've caught some fish, mostly
8
because I like eating them.
And if I'm sailing, I
9
sometimes trail a line and sometimes catch fish.
10
I'm not very good at it.
11
I'm a failure, when my ancestors were fishermen in
12
Scotland.
13
Q
14
All right.
My wife laughs because
So have you ever been fishing
on the Altamaha River?
15
A
No.
16
Q
Have you ever been fishing on any flat
17
water Southern river?
18
A
No.
19
Q
I know you are a sailor.
20
21
Do you do any
boating on flat water rivers?
A
I've been through the -- a U.S.
22
intracoastal waterway, which, of course, includes
23
crossing the Altamaha at one point, and a -- what's
24
the name of the river?
25
Two or three of the rivers down the
I've been in the Santee.
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Georgia-Carolina-Florida course.
2
Q
Okay.
3
A
Yes.
4
Q
Okay.
5
Was this in your sailboat?
Did you ever boat up to the
location of the mill?
6
A
No.
7
Q
Have you ever caught a fish in the
8
Altamaha River?
9
A
No.
10
Q
Have you ever eaten a fish from the
11
Altamaha River?
12
A
Not to my knowledge.
13
Q
You mentioned you have been on the
14
Altamaha River in a boat.
15
dozen times.
16
17
A
No.
I think you said half a
I said I've been on the riverbank
half a dozen times.
18
Q
Okay.
19
A
Not in a boat.
20
Q
Never been in a boat on the river?
21
A
Other than crossing it in my own boat a
22
23
24
25
few times.
Q
And that would have been down at the
mouth?
A
Yeah.
Where the intracoastal waterway
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area is.
2
3
Q
Right.
So that's like 50 miles, something
like that, from --
4
A
Something like that.
5
Q
Okay.
6
All right.
Yeah.
So your observations of
the river have been from the bank; is that correct?
7
A
Correct.
8
Q
Has that been from the mill site?
9
A
I've been at the mill site a few times.
10
Also when the riverkeeper first contacted me.
11
know, I get contacted by lots -- my first reaction
12
is:
13
table-thumping fanatics.
14
15
16
17
18
19
Well, environmental organizations are often
Q
I'm going to ask that you answer my
question specifically.
A
Okay.
Well, on the river specifically, I
made a point before I accepted the assignment -Q
My question is:
Have you observed the
river from the bank?
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
On how many occasions?
22
A
Half a dozen.
23
Q
All right.
24
25
You
And has that always been from
the Rayonier mill site?
A
On it or close to it or once down at
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2
3
4
5
6
7
Interstate 5 -- Interstate 95.
Q
All right.
Which, again, is probably 20,
25 miles from the mill?
A
Oh, I'm sure it's more than that.
River
miles, it would be a lot more than that.
Q
A lot more than that.
All right.
Have
you ever flown over the mill in a small plane?
8
A
No.
9
Q
I want to ask you some questions about the
10
profitable question.
Your testimony says that the
11
process for making highly purified cellulose is
12
more profitable than the process of making paper
13
grade pulp.
14
but is that your testimony?
Is that -- I'm not quoting exactly,
15
A
Yes.
16
Q
And it's your testimony that the company
17
could convert to an AST system, given the profits
18
that it generates.
19
A
Is that your testimony?
The testimony is that many of their
20
competitors use AST wastewater treatment, and the
21
companies seem to prosper and carry on in business.
22
So I assume they can do the same.
23
Q
All right.
But I'm going to ask you some
24
questions about Rayonier specifically.
You
25
testified at paragraph 44 that the process -- do
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you want to turn to that?
2
A
Yes, please.
3
Q
Let me do that as well.
4
MR. BROWN:
5
THE COURT REPORTER:
6
Yes.
BY MS. BARMEYER:
7
8
Are you hearing any better?
Q
In paragraph 54, you say that the
process --
9
A
I'm sorry.
10
Q
No.
11
A
Excuse me.
12
Q
I'm sorry.
13
A
Sorry.
15
Q
Yes.
16
A
Okay.
17
Q
It's your testimony that the process of
14
I thought you said 44.
54.
Can you give me a second to read
it?
18
producing the highly purified cellulose is more
19
profitable because the end product is highly valued
20
by end users.
21
A
No.
I'd say -- I say it's more profitable
22
because -- it's obvious.
When Rayonier spent
23
$300 million to convert the process to this special
24
pulp, they did so in the expectation -- they state
25
it will be more profitable, in their public
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2
3
pronouncements in the financial press.
Q
That was a forward-looking statement, was
it not?
4
A
Correct.
5
Q
Do you understand that the pulp business
6
is a cyclical business?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
And sometimes the price is up and
9
sometimes the price is low?
10
A
Correct.
11
Q
And do you understand that the price of
12
the various grades of product made at Rayonier
13
varies?
14
A
Correct.
15
Q
Are you aware that in recent years there
16
have been times when the price of commodity viscose
17
was higher than the price for -- of the specialty
18
cellulose product?
19
20
21
A
I'm not aware of the detailed pricing.
Rayonier keeps that very confidential.
Q
All right.
But you believe that you know
22
what the price is and that the price of this is
23
higher than commodity viscose, but you don't really
24
know whether it is at any given time, do you?
25
A
I think that's a fair comment.
It's
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widely quoted, and I've never seen it disagreed
2
with in the pulp industry literature, that these
3
dissolving grades sell at higher prices.
4
obvious that -- Rayonier aren't stupid.
5
wouldn't invest all of their money making that
6
stuff if it sold at a lower price, generally.
7
Of course -- you're right.
8
What counts is the long term.
9
long term.
10
11
And it's
They
It's cyclical.
They invest for the
They don't invest for next week's
price.
Q
You understand, do you not, that
12
profitability is a function not only of price of
13
the end market but the cost of making the product?
14
A
Of course.
15
Q
What information do you have, other than
16
this $300 million number, about Rayonier's capital
17
cost in making the commodity cellulose?
18
19
20
21
A
On the capital cost, their published
number is what I have.
Q
All right.
And is that a consideration if
one is talking about profitability of a product?
22
A
Of course.
23
Q
All right.
And are also the R&D costs for
24
various grades of pulp a necessary consideration if
25
one is assessing profitability?
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A
Of course.
2
Q
So when you state that it's more
3
profitable to make pulp, did you take those factors
4
into account?
5
A
I didn't try and analyze individual costs
6
for -- most of that data is confidential to
7
Rayonier.
8
stand back and look at the simple statement.
9
lists -- presumably if competent management made a
Most of it, I don't even know.
You
It
10
decision to invest $300 million in producing the
11
product, they did so in the expectation of making a
12
profit.
13
pulp for 50-something years.
14
making profits.
15
the long haul.
16
Therefore, it's obviously a profitable business.
17
Q
And the company has been making dissolving
I presume they are
Look at their annual reports in
Of course it goes up and down.
But in terms of the profitability -- the
18
profit that they generate from the specialty
19
cellulose line, you don't really have any data to
20
support your statement, do you?
21
A
I have Rayonier's public statements.
22
That's all.
23
mill's costs.
24
25
Q
I don't have individual data on the
They keep that very confidential.
Of course they do.
But in their public
statements, are you aware of any public statement
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where they break down the profitability of the
2
cellulose specialty product?
3
A
They do it implicitly, because they spent
4
the money to convert from the diaper grade to
5
dissolving pulp.
6
Q
All right.
7
A
And their other two lines continue to make
8
dissolving pulp.
They would be quite capable of
9
making other grades of pulp if they wished to.
10
They choose to make dissolving pulp.
11
it's more profitable.
I presume
12
Q
Are you aware --
13
A
That's how I -- where I came to the
14
conclusion, not from analysis of their --
15
Q
Okay.
16
A
-- accounting data.
17
Q
So your opinion is simply based on what
I don't have that.
18
you saw the company do in terms of the conversion
19
of the C mill?
20
A
And their -- no.
Their announcements,
21
their annual reports essentially tell you how
22
clever they are in making this special pulp and
23
that it's profitable.
24
here.
25
Q
Otherwise, we wouldn't be
Are you aware they spent $25 million to
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convert the C line back?
2
A
I am.
3
Q
All right.
4
question.
5
a product is selling at a higher price does not
6
necessarily mean that the sale of that product is
7
more profitable?
Now, let me ask you this
It's true, is it not, that the fact that
8
A
Of course.
9
Q
Of course.
And so to determine
10
profitability, you need to know a lot more than
11
price; correct?
12
A
That's correct.
13
Q
So to understand your opinion, it's based
14
on information you have about the price of the
15
specialty cellulose and the action by the mill --
16
by the company to make the C line conversion?
17
A
And their statements about it, not just
18
the action, their public statements and the --
19
their statements in their routine annual reports.
20
They are continuing to make dissolving pulp.
21
Q
But in those statements, they don't
22
provide you or the reader the detailed information
23
about the profitability of the cellulose specialty
24
product production, do they?
25
A
Grade by grade, I have not seen anything.
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No.
2
Q
3
question.
4
5
All right.
Thank you.
That's my
Let me ask you to look at the photos that
are following paragraph 63, 64, 65.
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
Were you there when those photos were
8
taken?
9
A
No.
10
Q
So you don't know whether those
11
photographs, 63, 64, 65, accurately represent the
12
scene as it appeared on those days?
13
A
I understand that Mr. Brown has stated
14
that these will be authenticated by the fellow who
15
took them.
16
Q
Which they may be --
17
A
Yeah.
18
Q
-- but my question to you is:
You don't
19
know whether or not these accurately represent the
20
scene on the day that the photo was taken?
21
22
A
told me they do.
23
24
I know the fellow that took them, and he
To that extent I know --
MS. BARMEYER:
A
25
I object.
-- the person -MS. BARMEYER:
I object.
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A
Okay.
2
Q
My question is:
Do you know from your own
3
knowledge whether or not these three photographs,
4
63, 64, 65, accurately represent the scene on -- at
5
the time and the day that these photographs were
6
taken?
7
A
On these specific days, no.
They're
8
consistent with what I've seen elsewhere -- seen
9
around the mill.
10
11
Q
You have never seen the mill from the air,
though, have you?
12
A
From an airplane, no.
13
Q
All right.
Let me ask you to look at the
14
photograph that follows paragraph 60, the Google
15
Earth photograph of 11-2-12.
16
A
Yeah.
17
Q
Does that -- of course, you've marked the
18
outfall with an arrow.
19
A
Correct.
20
Q
And then there's a plume downstream from
21
the arrow; correct?
22
A
Correct.
23
Q
Does that photograph demonstrate the color
24
25
in the discharge?
A
Yes.
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2
3
4
Q
Do you know what the river flow was on the
date of this Google Earth photograph?
A
I looked it up at the time.
I don't
remember the number right now.
5
Q
Do you recall that it was below the 7Q10?
6
A
It was a fairly low flow.
7
Q
And it was considerably below the 7Q10;
8
9
10
11
Yes.
correct?
A
It was.
My recollection is it was
something like 75 percent of the 7Q10.
Q
Okay.
That's what I have also.
12
And it's your testimony, paragraph 61,
13
that the discharge on that date was 208 tons of
14
color on the day that photograph was taken.
15
A
I guess.
61?
16
Q
Yes.
17
A
I looked it up at the time.
Yes.
That's
18
correct.
19
monitoring report for that day, and that's where I
20
arrived at the 208 tons.
21
Q
I checked the company's discharge
All right.
And it's your opinion that the
22
contrast that's observable in this photograph
23
between the plume and the river is caused by the
24
color and the discharge; correct?
25
A
That's very obvious.
Yes.
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Q
All right.
2
A
That's my opinion.
3
Q
Do you know what was the turbidity level
4
in the discharge when this photograph was taken?
5
A
I haven't seen data on turbidity.
6
Q
All right.
7
A
Rayonier doesn't appear to collect it, as
8
9
far as I know.
Q
Do you know what the turbidity of the
10
Altamaha River was on that date upstream of this
11
discharge?
12
A
No.
13
Q
All right.
14
There is data, USGS data, on
turbidity available, is there not?
15
A
I haven't reviewed that.
16
Q
All right.
17
Have you reviewed any
turbidity data downstream of the discharge?
18
A
No.
19
Q
All right.
From looking at this photo,
20
you can't tell whether there's any turbidity in the
21
discharge, can you?
22
A
That particular photo, no.
23
Q
All right.
And when you're standing on
24
the bank at Rayonier looking down at the outfall,
25
you can't tell whether there's turbidity in the
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discharge, can you?
2
A
Yeah.
3
Q
How close are you when you're standing on
4
You can, when you're that close.
the bank at the outfall?
5
A
To the water itself?
Probably 50 feet.
6
Q
And you're saying that from 50 feet away,
7
with your eyes you can tell whether or not the
8
discharge is turbid?
9
A
Well, the difference between turbidity and
10
color is like the difference between white coffee
11
and black coffee.
12
turbidity.
13
tell, not in the size of a cup -- or even at 50
14
feet, probably a cup.
15
bucket of white coffee and black coffee, you can
16
tell the difference at 50 feet.
Black coffee has color and no
White coffee has turbidity.
You can
Certainly if you show a
17
Q
Well, that's a little bit --
18
A
I kind of know it.
19
Q
What I'm asking you is:
Can you
20
distinguish whether and to what extent this plume
21
is caused by turbidity -- the contrast is caused by
22
turbidity as opposed to color?
23
A
Well, it's got to be both because the --
24
when your color and turbidity both are in the
25
stream, they're mixed.
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Q
But you don't have any data that will tell
2
you whether or to what extent this discharge -- the
3
visibility and the visible contrast is caused by
4
turbidity as opposed to color.
5
A
I know the suspended solid content of the
6
discharge and the characteristics of these solids,
7
and they cause turbidity.
8
9
Q
But total suspended solids is a different
analysis than turbidity, is it not?
10
A
It is different but related.
11
Q
All right.
12
But the test for turbidity,
the recognized test, is the NTU test; correct?
13
A
Of course.
14
Q
And you have no data -- you're not aware
15
of any data that would tell you the turbidity of
16
the discharge on this date or any date, do you?
17
A
That's correct.
I can infer that it's
18
turbid because of the suspended solids content.
19
The quantity, the volume of the turbidity, you
20
can't tell from the suspended solids content.
21
there are fine suspended solids, there is some
22
turbidity.
23
in any simple way.
24
25
Q
Always.
All right.
If
The quantity, you can't relate
So you're saying you're sure
that there's some turbidity, but you don't know
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what the level of turbidity is?
2
A
That's correct.
3
Q
And you don't know whether or not the
4
turbidity is sufficient to cause a visual contrast
5
with the river, do you?
6
A
The visual contrast is obvious.
7
Q
The visual contrast is -- my question to
8
you is:
9
contrast of the turbidity as opposed to the visual
10
contrast of the color?
11
12
13
Do you have any way to separate the visual
A
way.
You can't separate them in a quantifiable
No.
Q
So you have no quantifiable data to
14
support your view that turbidity is causing a
15
visible contrast in this discharge?
16
A
17
18
That's correct.
MS. BARMEYER:
whenever you would like one.
19
THE WITNESS:
20
MS. BARMEYER:
21
MR. BROWN:
22
MS. BARMEYER:
23
We can take a break
I'm quite comfortable.
All right.
Okay.
You're the boss.
All right.
Well, I want
Mr. McCubbin --
24
MR. BROWN:
Yeah.
25
MS. BARMEYER:
-- to know he can take a
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break --
2
3
MR. BROWN:
Any time you need to take a
break.
4
MS. BARMEYER:
5
And the court reporter as well.
6
MR. BROWN:
-- whenever he wants one.
And let me just say,
7
everybody, we'll -- I'll have somebody bring some
8
menus down for lunch at maybe like 11:00, and
9
everybody can -- we can put in orders and then
10
split up to have lunch, if y'all want to do that.
11
MS. BARMEYER:
12
great.
13
BY MS. BARMEYER:
14
Q
Thank you.
That would be
You've stated your opinion that Rayonier
15
Performance Fibers could reduce the color in its
16
discharge by more than 50 percent by converting
17
from ASBs to an AST system.
18
testimony?
19
20
21
A
Correct.
I think I said "about 50
percent," not "more than."
Q
Is that your
Let's check it.
Where is the paragraph?
It's 134 and 139.
22
On 134, you say, "A modern AST system at
23
Jesup would reduce pollutant discharge, including
24
color, to less than half of today's values."
25
A
Correct.
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Q
And then in 35 you say "about half."
2
A
Yeah.
3
Q
Okay.
4
MR. BROWN:
39?
5
MS. BARMEYER:
6
MR. BROWN:
7
THE WITNESS:
139?
135.
Excuse me.
135?
Yeah.
35, I said "less than
8
half."
9
some further explanation, if I'm permitted.
10
In 139, I do say that.
MS. BARMEYER:
I think it's worth
Well, let me ask you
11
questions, and then your counsel -- or Mr. Hutton
12
can follow -- Mr. Brown can follow up if he chooses
13
to.
14
BY MS. BARMEYER:
15
Q
Your opinion about the reduction that
16
could be secured from going to an AST system,
17
whether it's approximately 50 percent or more than
18
50 percent, is based in part on your opinion that
19
there's color reversion in ASBs that ranges from
20
about 30 to 50 percent; is that correct?
21
A
No.
It's a -- typically color increases
22
in ASB by roughly one-third, or 30 percent.
23
Typically color is reduced in any AST system by
24
something like the same number.
25
combine these two factors, you'll get an
So when you
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2
3
improvement of something around 50 percent.
Q
All right.
I'm focusing just on the ASB
at this point.
4
A
Yeah.
5
Q
So your opinion that you could get this
6
reduction of approximately 50 percent is based in
7
part on your opinion that there's color reversion
8
in the ASB; correct?
9
A
In part.
Yes.
10
Q
In part.
Do you have any data to support
11
your opinion that color reversion is occurring at
12
the Jesup mill?
13
A
They have given no data.
When we asked
14
the question, they told us they had seen no
15
increase.
16
show me some data, but I've never seen it.
17
Q
I challenged that and suggested they
Okay.
So your opinion about color
18
reversion at the Jesup mill is not based on any
19
data or any particular knowledge you have about the
20
Jesup mill?
21
A
Specific to the Jesup mill, you're right.
22
But I've worked in a lot of ASBs.
23
data comes from.
24
25
Q
Right.
I understand.
That's where the
It's based on your
experience with other systems.
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2
3
4
5
A
That's right.
And there's no reason to
assume the Jesup mill is unique.
Q
Is it possible to find out whether or not
there's color reversion in the ASBs at Jesup?
A
Of course.
They've got to measure the
6
data properly over a decent period of time.
7
shown one number that suggested -- I think it was
8
8 percent.
9
test.
10
Q
All right.
11
A
-- long term.
12
Q
All right.
13
I was
But that was a test on one -- one spot
You've got to look at these things -So --
So assuming you collect data,
color in, color out --
14
A
Uh-huh.
15
Q
-- other constituents in and out, over a
16
two-year period, would that tell you -- would that
17
give you reliable evidence as to whether or not
18
there is color reversion in the ASBs at Rayonier?
19
A
Presuming the data is -- you know, the
20
tests are properly done and all of the information
21
is there, yes.
22
Q
Okay.
And if the data collected over the
23
past two years of color in the effluent going into
24
ASB 2 and the color in the discharge, assuming that
25
data has been collected over a two-year period,
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assuming that that was properly done with the
2
proper laboratory methods and collection systems
3
and so forth, and if the color in the effluent is
4
essentially the same as the amount of color in the
5
influent, then changing to an AST for wastewater
6
treatment would not reduce the color in the
7
discharge by 50 percent, would it?
8
9
10
A
It would reduce it by probably less than
50 percent.
Q
All right.
It would reduce it far less
11
than 50 percent if there's no color reversion in
12
the ASBs, would it not?
13
A
If that's the case.
14
mentioned ASB 2.
15
Rayonier.
16
both.
17
Q
18
Now, I notice you
Remember, there are two ASBs in
I presume the tests have been done in
Yeah.
Assuming -- assuming the tests have
been done in both.
19
A
Okay.
20
Q
Now, you understand, of course, that the
21
discharge from ASB 1 is only about 5 percent of the
22
discharge at Rayonier; correct?
23
A
I don't recall the number.
24
much smaller.
25
have to consider the flow.
I know it's
When you do these calculations, you
The mass flow of color
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2
3
is what counts.
Q
Right.
So if you combine the mass flow
into both basins and out of both basins --
4
A
Uh-huh.
5
Q
-- and that data showed there was really
6
no significant increase in color, then that would
7
show you there's not color reversion in the ASBs;
8
correct?
9
A
That's correct.
It would surprise me,
10
because I've never seen it anywhere else, but data
11
is data.
12
13
Q
Right.
And every ASB system is different,
is it not?
14
A
Oh, there are variations.
15
Q
Of course.
16
MS. BARMEYER:
17
THE WITNESS:
18
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
19
Of course.
Can we take a break?
Sure.
Off the record at
9:40 a.m.
20
(Recess 9:40 a.m. to 10:01 a.m.)
21
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
22
record at 10:01 a.m.
23
BY MS. BARMEYER:
24
25
Q
Back on the video
Thank you.
Let me ask you to turn to paragraph 136 of
your testimony.
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1
A
Yes.
2
Q
Okay.
I have that.
Talking about conversion to an AST
3
at the Jesup mill.
4
be, quote, "not insignificant."
5
would be extremely large, would it not?
6
A
7
mill.
8
Q
9
And you say that the cost would
In fact, the cost
Not in relation to the scale of the Jesup
Well, let me just try to get some
specificity on that.
The capital cost to replace
10
the ASBs with an AST system would be at least
11
$85 million, wouldn't it?
12
A
I would not agree with that.
13
Q
What do you think would be the cost?
14
A
I have not tried to make a cost estimate
15
there.
16
than Rayonier has given us to make a cost estimate.
17
I'd have to have far more data on the site
I look at the fact that many of their
18
competitors successfully use the process.
19
Virtually every mill built in the last 25 years
20
uses that process and is running, making profits,
21
so I presume Rayonier has the engineering and
22
management skills to do the same.
23
24
25
Q
Well, but it would be tens of millions of
dollars, would it not?
A
Tens of millions.
Yes.
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1
2
Q
Probably at least in the range
of about 50 or more?
3
4
All right.
A
I'm not about -- as I told you, I'm not
about to make --
5
Q
Okay.
6
A
-- an estimate --
7
Q
All right.
8
A
-- without the details of exactly what --
9
where would it sit in that site, how it would be
10
done.
That's a -- takes more resources than I have
11
the time to put in this project --
12
Q
All right.
13
A
-- and more data than Rayonier has given
Q
All right.
14
15
16
17
So --
us.
So you don't know how much it
would cost to replace the ASBs with an AST?
A
As I said before, I assume it's acceptable
18
and reasonable in relation to the size of the
19
business because their competitors do it routinely.
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q
You don't know how much it would cost; is
that correct?
A
The exact cost on the Rayonier site,
definitely not.
Q
All right.
be significant.
The operating costs would also
Would they not be?
Would they
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2
not?
A
I suspect they'd be less than the current
3
ASB costs, but that depends exactly on what they
4
are spending in the existing system.
5
done analysis before, I've generally found that the
6
cost of -- or the operating costs are comparable.
7
That ASB has some problems, which are
8
visible when you travel around.
9
resolved by a new system --
10
11
When I've
Q
They would be
Let me -- I'm going to stop you right
there.
12
MR. BROWN:
Ms. Barmeyer, I think he's at
13
least entitled to answer.
14
you're unhappy with his answer, then you can move
15
to strike.
16
MS. BARMEYER:
And then if you -- if
Well, it's not responsive
17
for him to go into his observations of the ASBs
18
when I've asked him a question about cost.
19
MR. BROWN:
I think he should be allow to
20
finish his answer, and I would ask that you allow
21
him to finish his answer.
22
MS. BARMEYER:
He certainly can explain
23
his answer, but I think it's appropriate for him to
24
go ahead and answer my question.
25
answer in a way that's responsive and not then go
And he needs to
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off in another area.
So I'm going to ask him
2
about -- because my question, I believe, was:
3
don't know what the operating costs would be at
4
Jesup to convert to an AST.
5
BY MS. BARMEYER:
You
6
Q
7
A
I do not know the exact cost in that mill.
8
I have not done the estimate, for the same reason
9
as I told you, the capital cost.
10
Q
All right.
It's true, is it not, that an
11
AST system generates large quantities of sludge
12
which have to be removed from the AST system?
13
A
That's true.
There's a big advantage.
14
That sludge carries a lot of the color.
15
it out of the wastewater.
16
17
18
Q
All right.
It takes
But that waste sludge requires
chemical addition to the process, does it not?
A
It depends how you handle it.
The modern
19
mills, they actually mix it with a black liquor and
20
evaporate it and burn it in the recovery boiler.
21
Q
You've previously written, have you not,
22
that the quantities of waste sludge from an AST
23
require chemical addition.
24
correct?
25
A
Is that -- is that not
I have written that many years in the past
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before it became normal practice to burn the sludge
2
in a black liquor recovery boiler.
3
Q
All right.
You have also written that the
4
sludge is difficult -- from an AST is difficult to
5
dispose of in an environmentally safe manner.
6
A
Could you show me where I've written that?
7
Q
Yes.
8
Let's look at Exhibit 2 of your
testimony, page 12-19.
9
A
Uh-huh.
10
Q
First let me ask you to identify what this
11
12
is, Exhibit 2.
A
I wrote a chapter in a textbook called
13
Fishes and Forestry: Worldwide Watershed
14
Interactions and Management.
15
Q
And what is the date of this chapter?
16
A
As I recall, the late 1990s, but you can
17
18
probably tell me better.
Q
19
I couldn't find a date on here.
At any rate, you -- this Exhibit 2 is
20
something that you chose to attach as an exhibit to
21
your testimony.
22
A
I did.
Could you direct me to the --
23
Q
All right.
24
A
-- paragraph you're talking about?
25
Q
Yes.
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A
Page 12 what?
2
Q
Page 12-19.
There's a heading, Activated
3
sludge treatment.
In the middle of that paragraph,
4
do you see a sentence that says AST can achieve
5
lower BOD and TSS discharges than ASB --
6
A
Uh-huh.
7
Q
-- but generates significant quantities of
8
waste sludge which require chemical addition and
9
are difficult to dispose of in an environmentally
10
satisfactory manner.
Do you see that?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
All right.
13
A
I'd say it's obsolete today.
Is that sentence correct?
It was true
14
at the time.
15
the modern mills being built, it's common practice
16
to mix the sludge with a black liquor so the water
17
in it is evaporated.
18
systems are very energy efficient.
19
burned along with the black liquor, which is a very
20
efficient means of disposing of it.
21
Q
What I've learned since then is that
And the modern evaporator
And then it's
Doesn't it depend on whether or not
22
there's enough capacity in the boiler to burn these
23
huge quantities of waste sludge?
24
25
A
Well, first of all, the quantities are not
huge in relation to the quantity of what the mill
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is already burning in the boiler.
2
normal practice in modern mills -- obviously, they
3
do it because it's cost effective.
4
Q
All right.
Secondly, it is
Let me ask you this.
It's
5
true, is it not, that most pulp mills in North
6
America have ASBs rather than an AST system?
7
A
I haven't seen recent numbers.
I think
8
there's still a majority of ASBs.
9
considered obsolete in the rest of the world, but
10
They're
they're surviving here.
11
Q
So in North America it is standard?
12
A
I wouldn't call it standard.
13
Q
And, in fact, more than half the mills or
14
15
about half the mills in North America have ASBs?
A
You're telling me it's more than half.
16
That's not unreasonable.
17
recent numbers.
18
It's common.
Q
All right.
I don't -- I haven't seen
And you're not aware, are you,
19
of any pulp mill in the U.S. with an ASB that is
20
converting from an ASB to an AST system if it's in
21
regulatory compliance?
22
mill making that conversion if it's in regulatory
23
compliance, are you?
24
25
A
I am not.
You're not aware of any
If they're in regulatory
compliance, they probably wouldn't spend money.
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2
3
4
5
Q
A
Advised them -- can you show me what
you're referring to?
Q
Yes.
MR. BROWN:
You just have one copy,
Patricia?
8
9
And, in fact, that's what you
advised Northern Pulp about a year ago, isn't it?
6
7
All right.
MS. BARMEYER:
three copies.
No.
MR. BROWN:
11
MS. BARMEYER:
12
All right.
16
17
We could share.
You can share.
I'm going to mark this
Respondent's Exhibit 1.
14
15
I have -- I have only
I actually have four.
10
13
No.
(Respondent's Exhibit 1 marked.)
BY MS. BARMEYER:
Q
Let me show you Respondent's Exhibit 1,
Mr. McCubbin.
18
A
Uh-huh.
19
Q
Are you familiar with this --
20
A
I am.
21
Q
-- document?
22
A
I am.
23
Q
All right.
Yes.
And is that a memorandum that
24
you prepared and delivered to your client, Northern
25
Pulp Nova Scotia?
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2
A
review.
It certainly looks like it, in a quick
Yes.
3
Q
Okay.
4
A
And I may --
5
Q
And is it -- I'm sorry.
6
A
No.
7
Q
And it has a date of 6 April 2015?
8
A
Correct.
9
Q
All right.
Carry on.
It's okay.
In this memo, I'm looking at
10
the first page, under the heading Current effluent
11
control practices.
12
wrote "more than 50 percent" --
Do you see there where you
13
A
Uh-huh.
14
Q
-- "of mills operating in North America
15
are operating ASB systems and meeting all relevant
16
regulations"?
17
A
Okay.
18
Q
All right.
And you also wrote, "I do not
19
know of any ASB systems that are in regulatory
20
compliance being replaced by AST systems."
21
A
That's correct.
22
Q
All right.
And you also say, "If
23
maintenance is good, and it is not overloaded, an
24
ASB treatment system has an indefinite life."
25
Correct?
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A
That's correct.
2
Q
All right.
3
A
Presuming always that the regulatory
Thank you.
4
compliance -- the regulations don't change, to mean
5
that it was out of compliance.
6
Q
7
Right.
Thank you.
And as I understand it, ASBs are
8
especially prevalent in the South.
9
correct?
Is that
10
A
In the southern United States?
11
Q
Southern United States.
12
A
They tend to be.
13
Q
All right.
14
15
16
17
20
21
A
I don't know the actual number, but I
wouldn't disagree with you.
Q
Okay.
Thank you.
Let me ask you to look at paragraphs 41,
42, and 43, talking about O2 delig.
A
please.
22
23
And are you aware that about
75 percent of the mills in EPA Region 4 have ASBs?
18
19
Yes.
Do you want this?
I've got to make a note.
Okay.
Q
Give me one sec,
Sorry.
All right.
Please turn to paragraphs 41,
24
42, and 43.
That's where you're talking about the
25
products made at the Jesup mill, and you note that
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the -- that at least some of the product is a
2
product that is nearly pure cellulose, 98 percent
3
or more cellulose.
4
A
Correct.
5
Q
All right.
6
Correct?
And I'm going to refer to that
as a cellulose specialty product.
7
A
That's a fair comment.
8
Q
Okay.
9
Do you know whether the
requirements for the high-end specialty cellulose
10
products that Rayonier makes are more exacting than
11
the requirements for the commodity grade viscose?
12
A
They're different.
13
Q
Are they more -- do the customers
14
sometimes have specific requirements that they
15
request in terms of the quality of the product?
16
17
A
Well, all customers have specific
requirements they request of any product they buy.
18
Q
All right.
19
A
Theirs, of course, are different from
20
21
someone making diapers or making Xerox paper.
Q
Would you agree that the requirements for
22
the specialty cellulose product are more exacting
23
than the requirements for the fluff that they use
24
to make diapers?
25
A
No.
They're different.
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Q
All right.
In terms of being different,
2
do you -- are you aware that some of Rayonier's
3
customers for these high-end specialty cellulose
4
products sometimes specify the minimum intrinsic
5
viscosity level that they require in their product?
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
A
That's one of the well-known properties
used for defining dissolving pulp quality.
Q
All right.
And are you aware that
different customers have different requirements for
the minimum intrinsic viscosity?
A
I would -- I can believe they do.
I
haven't see the specific numbers.
13
Q
Okay.
14
A
That would be normal -- quite normal to --
15
16
different people have different needs.
Q
Okay.
Do you agree that the insulation of
17
the O2 delig technology might compromise the
18
ability of the Jesup mill to produce the specialty
19
cellulose products to the specifications as to
20
intrinsic viscosity?
21
A
No.
22
Q
Okay.
I wouldn't agree.
So in your opinion O2 delig would
23
have no adverse impact on the ability to produce
24
that product?
25
A
I know that competitive companies use O2
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delig.
Rayonier has told me they can't use it in
2
their mill, but they declined to provide any
3
information or anything to back up that statement.
4
Q
Okay.
5
A
O2 delig is a little bit special beast in
6
the pulp and paper industry because it's been
7
around for 50 -- 40 years.
8
resisted installing it because it's usually driven
9
by environmental pressures.
Many companies have
And I've heard so many
10
times we can't make our product with it later, and
11
10 years later the mill is doing it.
12
Q
All right.
13
A
So it's --
14
Q
But you don't know yourself whether or not
15
the O2 delig would have any impact on the
16
production of these high-end specialty cellulose
17
products, do you?
18
A
The only information I have in Rayonier's
19
case is they tell us it doesn't work.
20
decline to provide any backup, so I -- I have to
21
confess to a certain skepticism.
22
23
Q
When you say -- and I think
it's in paragraph 120.
24
25
All right.
But they
BY MS. BARMEYER:
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Q
Yeah.
Let me -- you mentioned several
2
times that Rayonier's competitors seem to be able
3
to make this specialty cellulose using O2 delig.
4
What companies -- what mills specifically are you
5
referring to?
6
A
Bahia Pulp in Brazil.
Saiccor, South
7
Africa.
8
A -- what's the name again?
9
Brazil, they used to make dissolving grades.
10
A Weyerhaeuser Cosmopolis uses O2 delig.
In Porto Alegre in
They
had an O2 delig plant.
11
Q
But they no longer do?
12
A
They no longer do.
13
Q
All right.
14
A
And that's what all I can think of right
Q
All right.
15
16
17
now.
So Bahia in Brazil.
And then
the other one is the --
18
A
Saiccor.
19
Q
-- Saiccor in South Africa?
20
A
Yeah.
Particularly interesting because
21
they have, as I recall, three production lines.
22
They installed O2 delig in one and then another and
23
then another.
24
it and it worked quite well, if they kept
25
installing more systems.
So it kind of sounds like they liked
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2
Q
All right.
Let me ask you about
Cosmopolis.
3
A
Uh-huh.
4
Q
That's a dissolving sulfite mill --
5
A
Correct.
6
Q
-- not a dissolving kraft mill; correct?
7
A
Correct.
8
Q
And that's a different process, is it not?
9
A
It's somewhat different.
10
Q
All right.
Yes.
At Cosmopolis, do you know how
11
much of their production is the specialty
12
cellulose?
13
A
That's confidential.
14
Q
But you know they make primarily commodity
15
16
17
18
19
20
viscose?
A
I have been at that mill.
I got was confidential.
Q
The information
I can't discuss it.
You know they make products other than the
speciality cellulose?
A
As I said, their products are
21
confidential.
I signed confidential agreements
22
when I was there.
23
in turn ties me to confidentiality.
24
discuss Cosmopolis products.
25
delig is public.
I was working for the EPA, which
So I can't
The fact they use O2
Exactly what they make, I can't
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2
3
discuss.
Q
You say in paragraph 123 that Cosmopolis
used O2 delig for years.
4
MR. BROWN:
5
MS. BARMEYER:
6
MR. BROWN:
7
I'm sorry.
Which paragraph?
Paragraph 123.
Thank you.
BY MS. BARMEYER:
8
Q
Are they still using O2 delig?
9
A
I couldn't tell you.
10
the mill for several years, but --
11
Q
All right.
12
A
Probably 10 years.
13
Q
Okay.
14
I haven't been at
So you don't know whether they are
using O2 delig on all of their lines?
15
A
I do not know.
16
Q
Okay.
And do you know whether or not
17
they're using O2 delig on all grades of product
18
that they produce?
19
A
Once again, exactly what they're doing, I
20
know, but I can't answer that under confidentiality
21
agreements.
22
23
24
25
Q
But you haven't been to the mill in at
least 10 years.
A
No.
They've been using the -- the process
for several years when I was there, but I haven't
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2
been there recently.
Q
Right.
No.
So my question is:
Do you know
3
conclusively that they are using -- that they are
4
currently using at Cosmopolis O2 delig on all
5
grades?
6
A
Currently I don't know what they're doing.
7
I know they used it for years.
8
worked.
9
Q
Okay.
All right.
Therefore, it
That was my question.
10
In terms of current information, you really don't
11
have any.
12
And do you have any information about the
13
quality of the products that Cosmopolis is
14
currently producing?
15
A
We're back to the confidentiality issue I
16
mentioned.
17
any more than I can discuss Rayonier's.
18
Q
I can't discuss what they are doing,
Well, I'm not asking you to disclose any
19
confidential information.
20
confidential information, do you have any
21
information from trade press or discussion with
22
others -- do you have any information about the
23
quality of the product that the Cosmopolis mill is
24
currently producing?
25
A
So aside from
I don't even know if the mill is still
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2
running.
Q
3
4
5
Okay.
Thank you.
In your opinion, is the Cosmopolis mill
adequately controlling its discharge of color?
A
There was no detail on color when I was
6
there.
7
issues with the environment, but color was not one,
8
as I recall.
9
10
Q
It wasn't an issue.
Okay.
All right.
There were some other
Are you aware they just
got a renewed permit from the State of Washington?
11
A
No.
12
Q
So you don't have any information about
13
14
the color in the Cosmopolis discharge?
A
One thing that's important about the color
15
there is it discharges to the ocean.
And when you
16
discharge color to the ocean, one of the nice
17
things, if you like, about pulp mill effluent is
18
when it mixes with seawater, the color tends to
19
disappear.
20
eyes in other locations.
I've seen that physically with my own
21
Q
But in terms --
22
A
Of course, the Altamaha River is not the
23
24
25
ocean.
Q
But in terms of the actual color in the
effluent, you don't have any information?
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2
A
I don't recall there even being an issue
over it.
3
Q
All right.
4
A
Then or now.
5
Q
Okay.
6
A
Uh-huh.
7
Q
Saiccor?
8
A
Saiccor.
Yeah.
9
Q
Saiccor.
And isn't that also a dissolving
10
I don't know.
The mill in South Africa --
sulfite mill?
11
A
I don't recall.
12
Q
And are you aware that that mill makes
13
14
15
16
17
primarily commodity viscose?
A
viscose.
Q
They make a large quantity of commodity
That's public.
All right.
And that that is their primary
product, rather than the specialty cellulose?
18
A
I believe so.
19
Q
Let me ask you to look at paragraph 120,
20
Yes.
please.
21
A
Uh-huh.
22
Q
The second sentence there, you say, "Most
23
mills in the world use an oxygen delignification
24
stage."
25
A
Correct.
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Q
When you say "most mills in the world,"
2
that statement is not limited to dissolving pulp
3
mills, is it?
4
A
No.
5
Q
So that figure would -- or that statement
6
of "most mills" includes mills that, for example,
7
produce paper grade pulp only?
8
9
10
A
To produce all kinds of pulp.
grades, of course, are the most common.
Q
Okay.
Paper
Yes.
But it's true, isn't it, that about
11
half of the new or rebuilt fiberlines in North
12
America have not included O2 delig?
13
A
What do you mean by new and rebuilt?
14
Q
Well, let me ask you to look at your
15
Exhibit 2 again.
16
MR. BROWN:
17
MS. BARMEYER:
18
21
22
THE WITNESS:
His Exhibit 2.
Page
Yeah.
BY MS. BARMEYER:
Q
There's a section entitled Oxygen
delignification.
Do you see that?
23
A
Yeah.
24
Q
All right.
25
Yes.
12-9 of 30.
19
20
His Exhibit 2?
The last line there says,
"Approximately half the new or rebuilt fibrelines
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in North America since 1985 have included OD,"
2
meaning oxygen delignification.
Do you see that?
3
A
Sorry.
Which paragraph are we on here?
4
Q
The last paragraph in that section and the
5
very last sentence.
6
rebuilt fibrelines" --
7
A
Yeah.
"Approximately half the new or
I said essentially -- essentially
8
all of those built outside North America
9
incorporate OD, and only about half of the ones in
10
North America since 1985 have included it.
11
recently, of course, it's used more.
12
long while ago.
More
1985 is a
13
Q
Well, but as of the date of this book --
14
A
Uh-huh.
15
Q
-- about half of the new ones since '85
16
had not included OD.
17
A
That's true.
18
Q
Okay.
19
A
In North America.
20
Q
In North America.
21
You've stated your opinion that use of
22
oxygen delignification at the Jesup mill would
23
reduce Rayonier's color discharge by approximately
24
30 percent.
25
A
Yes.
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Q
2
A
Depending on how well it's applied.
3
Q
Okay.
Yeah.
And that figure assumes that O2
4
delig could be installed on all three lines;
5
correct?
6
A
Correct.
7
Q
Let me ask you to look at paragraph 66 and
8
67, and in particular I want you to look at the
9
photograph which is after paragraph 66.
And --
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
-- it's also your Exhibit 6; correct?
12
A
Correct.
13
Q
All right.
You say that discharge came
14
from a mill in Chile.
What is the name of the
15
mill?
16
A
It's owned by Celulosa Arauco.
17
Q
And where is it located?
18
A
It's in Val -- near Valdivia, in Chile.
19
It's actually quite a number of kilometers upstream
20
from Valdivia.
21
22
Q
And that is not a dissolving kraft mill,
is it?
23
A
Correct.
24
Q
It's a bleach kraft mill?
25
A
Correct.
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Q
And they produce a market grade product?
2
A
Correct.
3
4
5
6
They did at the time this
picture was taken.
Q
Okay.
All right.
And is it correct that
that mill has a tertiary treatment system?
A
That's correct.
Which would also work
7
perfectly well at Rayonier, if they chose to
8
install it.
9
10
Q
mills.
I want to ask you about a couple of other
The Riocell mill in Brazil --
11
A
Correct.
12
Q
-- is that a dissolving kraft mill?
13
A
They made dissolving kraft in the past.
14
15
16
They don't in recent years.
Q
All right.
And what about the UPM mill in
Uruguay?
17
A
It's a --
18
Q
Is that a dissolving kraft mill?
19
A
No.
20
Q
Okay.
All right.
Glatfelter in
21
Pennsylvania, that's not a dissolving kraft mill,
22
is it?
23
A
No.
24
Q
All right.
25
And you mentioned that it
discharges to a tiny stream.
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A
2
Altamaha.
3
Q
4
Very small.
Yes.
Much smaller than the
In fact, the discharge is -- I think you
said 30 percent of the flow.
5
A
That's believable.
6
Q
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Now, you stated your
7
opinion that the Glatfelter mill has superior
8
environmental performance in terms of color and
9
other constituents; correct?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
And you state in paragraph 150 that -- and
12
we can turn to that -- that it had -- that the
13
permit at Glatfelter limits the discharge to a
14
daily maximum of 246 NCASI units.
15
A
Correct.
16
Q
All right.
17
A
Could I -- sorry.
What does -I should explain there.
18
I believe their permit is written in terms of PCUs,
19
which is essentially the same as NCASI.
20
in Georgia chose to use NCASI units, which are
21
accepted by the industry.
22
it's the same thing.
As a practical fact,
23
Q
All right.
24
A
So I used the term NCASI here.
25
Rayonier
I think
the permit says PCU, which is the more generic
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term.
2
Q
3
4
Okay.
Thank you for that.
What does -- if you had a glass of water
or a jar of --
5
A
Uh-huh.
6
Q
-- of effluent that had a NCASI unit
7
reading of 246, what would the color of that fluid
8
look like?
9
A
Diluted Budweiser.
50/50.
I guess,
10
roughly, if you took some Budweiser, regular beer,
11
and mix it 50/50 with water, or maybe a bit more
12
than that, water, it would look something like
13
that.
14
Q
Okay.
15
A
That's an eyeball estimate.
16
scientifically calculated.
17
18
That's not
Q
Okay.
Yeah.
And we'd have to specify
"Budweiser," not some heartier beer than that.
19
A
I'll have to specify the lager-type beer.
20
Budweiser or Miller Lite or something like that.
21
Yes.
22
Q
Okay.
23
A
Not Guinness.
24
Q
Okay.
25
It would not --
MR. BARRON:
Are you going to start
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handing out some samples here today?
2
BY MS. BARMEYER:
3
4
Q
It would be -- it would not look like that
sample you took from the mill in Chile?
5
A
No.
6
Q
All right.
7
8
9
What about 600 NCASI units?
What would a jar of effluent of 600 look like?
A
I don't want to start into guessing that.
How big a jar?
What's the light?
What's the --
10
you know, I'm not going to try and guess these
11
things here.
12
measure it.
If you want to know the color, you
13
Q
All right.
Okay.
14
A
To give you one idea, you've seen the
15
photographs of the aerated lagoons.
16
in front of you.
17
thousand NCASI units in there at the Jesup.
18
19
Q
22
All right.
That's probably around a
Let me -- and I want to talk
about the lagoons in just a minute.
20
21
Right?
You have one
At Glatfelter, the discharge into the
stream has a visible plume, does it not?
A
I've been there when it's visible and I've
23
been there when it's not, depending whether the
24
river is really small or not.
25
Q
It's very --
But at least --
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2
A
to it.
3
4
Q
It's faint.
There's a faint yellow color
From what I see, it's -But at least some of the time there's an
observable color --
5
A
Oh, in that little creek.
6
Q
All right.
7
Yeah.
Thank you.
Let me ask you about the lagoons.
Let's
8
see.
9
ask you to look at the photograph that's right
10
Let's look at your paragraph 80, and I would
above paragraph 80.
11
A
Yeah.
12
Q
And it's your testimony that the color of
13
the water in the ponds is darker than the color of
14
the river in the photograph; correct?
15
A
Correct.
16
Q
But my question is this.
Isn't the color
17
of the water in the lagoons determined in large
18
part by the color of the bottom of the lagoon?
19
A
You can't begin to see the bottom in an
20
aerated lagoon.
21
down.
22
Q
23
24
25
It's a -- you can't see that far
But isn't the bottom of the lagoon a dark
sludge material?
A
I can't imagine it would have any effect
in the visible color because you can't see the
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bottom.
2
lagoon, it disappears.
3
bottom could be purple, and you wouldn't see a
4
difference here.
5
Q
If you throw something white into a
You don't see it.
So the
Are you saying that the water is -- are
6
you saying that the bottom of the lagoons has no
7
influence on the color that you observe in this
8
photograph?
9
A
That's correct.
If you look at a lagoon
10
and see some structure, see a concrete structure in
11
it, you can see the structure itself.
12
your eye down.
13
first couple of feet down, you can see the
14
structure.
15
just can't see that far down.
16
the bottom, the color of it can't affect -- impact
17
the -- what you see.
18
19
Q
You can probably see it -- for the
Then it disappears because those -- you
Let me look
at -- let's talk about the Champion mill.
A
Which Champion mill?
21
Q
Excuse me.
23
So if you can't see
Well, let me ask you this.
20
22
Just follow
Excuse me.
Evergreen at
Canton.
A
If I could suggest, it's good to talk
24
about these mills in terms of the town and not the
25
company.
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Q
Yes.
2
A
Companies' names --
3
Q
Companies changes.
4
A
-- change frequently.
5
don't.
6
7
Q
All right.
So I'm talking about the
Evergreen mill in Canton, North Carolina.
8
A
Okay.
9
Q
All right.
10
The towns generally
So the -- the Canton mill is
not a dissolving pulp mill.
11
A
Correct.
12
Q
And you're aware that the Evergreen mill,
13
the Canton mill, is located on a trout stream;
14
correct?
15
A
I've been there.
16
being trout.
17
it.
18
for a trout stream to me.
I don't remember it
But it's very believable, to look at
It looks like a sensible candidatecanditate
19
Q
Okay.
20
A
When I was there, the issue was color, not
21
fish.
22
Q
Okay.
23
A
Correct.
24
Q
-- the discharge; correct?
25
A
Correct.
But it's on the Pigeon River --
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Q
And I think you say in your testimony the
2
Pigeon River only has about 10 percent as much flow
3
as the Altamaha.
4
A
It's something like that.
And I know
5
there are times when the mill takes the whole river
6
flow into use for water.
7
Q
Okay.
8
A
Or used to be.
9
flow of it now.
I believe they cut the
When I was first there in the
10
'90s, they were on occasion -- in dry weather, they
11
used the whole river.
12
smaller than the Altamaha.
13
14
Q
Okay.
So, obviously, it's much
And you listed the Canton mill as
an example of a strong environmental performer.
15
A
Correct.
16
Q
All right.
Is it correct to say that you
17
personally do not find the discharge from the
18
Canton mill to be causing objectionable conditions
19
in the river?
20
A
It's visible at times.
When I was last
21
there, I could see some color.
22
still probably objectionable to some people.
23
Q
I would say it's
Well, I'm asking your opinion.
24
objectionable to you?
25
mill objectionable to you?
Is it
Is the plume from the Canton
Do you consider it
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objectionable?
2
A
Today you mean, or when I was there?
3
Q
When you were there.
4
A
When I was there, it was -- I'd say it was
5
6
7
8
9
objectionable.
Q
Yeah.
It was visible.
But you have stated that the Canton mill
is an example of a strong environmental performer.
A
there.
It's improved quite a bit since I was
If you look at the effluent discharge
10
permit of -- if I recall, 16 tons a day.
11
in my testimony.
12
to Rayonier's.
I put it
It's a tiny discharge in relation
13
Q
And it's on a very, very tiny stream.
14
A
Yes.
But the fact is that it -- and we're
15
talking about -- you asked me about mill
16
performance, not the conditions of the stream.
17
Put another way, if the Canton mill was in
18
the Altamaha, we wouldn't be here today, or if
19
Rayonier had the performance of the Canton mill, we
20
wouldn't be here today.
21
MS. BARMEYER:
Well, I'm -- that's not
22
responsive to the question.
23
that.
24
BY MS. BARMEYER:
25
Q
I will move to strike
So is it your testimony that if there's
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2
3
4
any visibility in the plume, it's objectionable?
A
I think the judgment of object --
"objectionable" is more up to the Court than me.
Q
5
Well, I would agree with that.
All right.
Let me show you some Google
6
Earth photographs, and let me mark these.
7
(Respondent's Exhibit 2 marked.)
8
9
BY MS. BARMEYER:
Q
And, Mr. McCubbin, can you see that this
10
is a set of four Goggle Earth photographs of the
11
Canton mill?
12
2015, simply zoomed in at a different scale; and
13
the next two, dated March 19th, 2013, again at two
14
different scales.
The first two, dated October 20th,
Do you see that?
15
A
I do.
16
Q
All right.
17
And I really just want you to
look at the -- first, at the three clarifiers --
18
A
Yeah.
19
Q
-- close by the outfall.
20
A
Yeah.
21
That's the activated sludge -- the
AST system.
22
Q
That's the AST system.
23
A
Uh-huh.
24
Q
All right.
25
Or part of it.
And the water in those lagoons
appears in this aerial photograph on Google Earth
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to be very, very dark; is that correct?
2
A
Correct.
3
Q
Is that influenced by the bottom of the
4
5
AST system that is shown there?
A
I think it's more an issue of the depth --
6
THE COURT REPORTER:
7
THE WITNESS:
8
THE COURT REPORTER:
9
A
I'm sorry.
Of the depth.
(Continuing)
Thank you.
You won't see the -- I don't
10
think you'll see the bottom in these clarifiers.
11
In fact, when I was there, you couldn't see the
12
bottom.
13
Q
All right.
And in these photographs, do
14
you observe a visible plume coming from the Canton
15
mill?
16
A
17
There is one.
Yes.
On the 2013
photograph.
18
Q
And --
19
A
And -- well, the other one says "select
20
date," or down below it says 2015.
21
Q
October 20th, 2015?
22
A
Yeah.
23
Q
On both of those dates?
24
A
Uh-huh.
25
Q
Thank you.
Yeah.
It's visible in both.
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2
MR. BROWN:
3
THE WITNESS:
4
idea.
5
BY MS. BARMEYER:
6
Do you need more water?
It's probably not a bad
Thanks.
Q
Mr. McCubbin, we've talked about a lot of
7
mills.
8
other dissolving kraft mill in the United States is
9
the Buckeye mill now owned by Georgia-Pacific in
10
Perry, Florida?
11
12
13
It's correct, is it not, that the only
A
now.
That's the only one I can think of right
Yes.
Q
14
All right.
Thank you.
I'd like to ask you to look at paragraph
15
105 of your testimony.
In there, you're discussing
16
the criteria used by the World Bank.
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
Do you see that?
19
A
(No response.)
20
Q
The World Bank criteria apply to plants
21
that are being financed by the World Bank --
22
A
Correct.
23
Q
-- either new plants or upgrades; is that
24
25
correct?
A
Correct.
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Q
Your testimony says that you have heard
2
the reports of fish tainting.
Have you ever spoken
3
with any fishermen yourself directly?
4
A
Yes.
5
Q
How many?
6
A
Two or three.
7
Q
And --
8
A
From people I've met through the
9
10
riverkeepers.
Q
Have you ever spoken with any fishermen
11
that use the river that were not presented to you
12
by the riverkeeper?
13
A
No.
14
Q
How many people have you spoken to that
15
16
fish on the river?
A
17
years.
18
exactly.
We've been talking about this for 10
A few.
Several.
I couldn't tell you
19
Q
Well --
20
A
The meetings are mostly casual.
21
Q
And give me an estimate.
22
five?
23
A
Something like that.
24
Q
Okay.
25
Would it be
Yeah.
And how recently have you spoken to
anybody who fishes on the river?
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2
3
A
A few years ago now.
exactly.
Q
I couldn't tell you
It's a few years.
So you haven't spoken with anybody in the
4
last -- about fishing on the river in the last two
5
or three years?
6
A
That's correct.
7
Q
Other than speaking with people, have you
8
reviewed any written complaints about fish
9
tainting?
10
A
I don't -- I can't recall one right now.
11
On the other hand, I've read a lot of stuff over
12
the years.
13
14
Q
So you don't know whether you've actually
read any written complaints?
15
A
I couldn't tell you.
16
Q
All right.
17
Tell me what the substance was
of those complaints.
18
A
When you try to eat the fish, it tastes
19
terrible.
20
Q
All right.
21
A
They frequently talk -- fish tainting.
22
Fish odor.
23
thing in practical terms.
24
25
Q
Fish taste.
It's essentially the same
And how many complained about a bad odor
when the fish was cut open?
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A
In this mill, we -- I guess we didn't
2
distinguish between "cut open" and "eaten."
3
presume you cut it open to eat it.
4
Q
So I
Well, I'm -- but I'm asking in the process
5
when -- the complaints that you were -- that were
6
brought to you, were they a complaint about the
7
odor when one cleans the fish?
8
9
10
11
A
No.
When trying to eat -- when
considering eating it, you don't want to eat it.
Q
Okay.
So it comes when it's cooked and
you're getting ready to eat it; correct?
12
A
Oh, yes.
That's by far the worst.
13
Q
Well --
14
A
If you eat it.
15
Q
-- is there anything other than that?
16
A
I don't know.
When the fish is cut out at
17
the water, I never hear any complaining.
18
wouldn't expect it to -- expect it to either.
19
Q
Okay.
I
So you never heard a complaint when
20
you catch it.
You've never heard a complaint about
21
odor in the fish when you cut it open.
22
heard is a complaint when you cook it and try to
23
eat it; is that correct?
24
A
Correct.
25
Q
All right.
All you've
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A
Correct.
I wouldn't expect any when you
2
catch it or cut it open.
3
that point it's no different from the water in the
4
river, and you're sitting in the middle of the
5
river, at which point you're so used to the smell,
6
you probably don't notice it.
7
8
Q
It's no different -- at
For each complaint, tell me what was the
species of fish that they were unable to eat?
9
A
I didn't ask.
10
Q
Did you ask how many fish they caught that
11
12
13
had the bad taste?
A
The comments was you can't eat the fish
you catch in the river.
14
Q
But you don't know what kind of fish?
15
A
No.
16
Q
Do you know what --
17
A
Whatever is in the river.
18
Q
I'm sorry.
19
A
Whatever is in the river.
20
Q
But you don't know what is in the river
21
and what kind of fish they're catching?
22
A
No.
23
Q
All right.
24
A
Well, I know what generally is caught
25
there.
Do you know how --
I know a bit of it what generally is caught
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there, but I don't know -- we didn't get into
2
details of what species and how old was the fish
3
and all of that.
4
analysis.
5
Q
This wasn't a scientific
It was comments from people complaining.
Okay.
Well, that's really my question.
6
You don't have any -- you don't have sufficient
7
information to do a scientific analysis of those
8
complaints, do you?
9
A
I don't.
10
Q
And you don't know how many fish the
11
complaining parties caught that did not have any
12
odor or a tainting problem, do you?
13
A
I don't.
14
Q
Do you know where the fish were caught
15
that they were complaining of?
16
A
They said downstream of the mill.
17
Q
Do you know exactly where?
18
A
The comment was:
19
the fish are okay.
Upstream of the mill,
Downstream, they're not.
20
Q
Do fish swim up and down in the river?
21
A
Of course.
22
Q
And you don't know whether the fish that
23
they complained about are -- strike that.
24
25
You don't know what is the range of the
fish that they were complaining about --
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A
No.
2
Q
-- how far that fish --
3
A
No.
4
Q
-- range is?
5
A
(No response.)
6
Q
And you don't know what is the food --
7
primary food source of the fish that they
8
complained about?
9
A
No.
10
Q
And you don't know the precise location
11
where the fish were caught?
12
A
No.
13
Q
Do you know whether or not any of the fish
14
that these complaints were based on were tested to
15
determine the presence or absence of constituents
16
that might cause tainting?
17
A
I haven't seen any data on that.
In
18
general such tests are not very useful, in my
19
experience.
20
Q
But you were a willing participant in a --
21
in a study that took two years and millions of
22
dollars to look at, among other things, the fish
23
tissue; correct?
24
25
A
That's right.
And the whole point --
that's particularly -- it's been sort of known
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before, and that really convinced me that we don't
2
know what substances are causing the tainting out
3
of the kraft mill waste.
4
there, as EPD proposes, and testing for three or
5
four known compounds is really useless.
6
Q
And that's why I went out
But on that topic, you are aware that the
7
permit requires testing by Rayonier Performance
8
Fibers of the water in the Altamaha River
9
downstream of the discharge to determine whether
10
there is the presence of compounds that are known
11
to cause fish tainting; is that correct?
12
13
A
I'm aware of it.
And as I said in my
testimony, it's useless.
14
Q
That's your opinion.
15
A
Correct.
16
Q
But that was the study that was -- that
17
has been required by EPD.
Is that not correct?
18
A
That's correct.
19
Q
And there was input into the design of
20
that study by U.S. EPA; correct?
21
A
I don't know that.
22
Q
You don't --
23
A
It wouldn't surprise me, but I have no
24
25
knowledge of that.
Q
Okay.
All right.
At the moment, sitting
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here today, you have no scientific evidence, I
2
think you called it, that will tell you what is
3
causing -- what, if anything, is causing fish
4
tainting in the river.
5
A
Correct?
We infer from the fact that they're
6
catching fish downstream of the mill that taste
7
bad, that fits in with the experience with much
8
more scientific data in other mills.
9
tying the one to the other, there's no real
Directly
10
scientific track, and I don't think there's any
11
need for one.
12
these things forever instead of acting.
13
Q
It's self-evident.
You can study
But at this point, without any data, you
14
are relying on the anecdotal information that you
15
have received, which is very -- a very small
16
sample, to conclude that there's a fish tainting
17
problem; isn't that correct?
18
19
20
A
That and the fact that it's consistent
with my experience in other mills.
Q
All right.
But in terms of this river and
21
the fish in this river, you have no data or other
22
evidence to support your conclusions about fish
23
tainting other than five complaints from fishermen
24
and none within the past two or three years;
25
correct?
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A
I think that's a fair comment.
Yes.
2
Q
On the two projects that you worked on
3
on fish tainting, were there protocols for
4
gathering and analyzing data regarding fish
5
tainting?
6
A
The one -- Domtar at Cornwall, there were.
7
The one at Skookumchuck, there were basically the
8
fact that a -- the people were complaining about
9
the fish tainting, and the mill people said:
10
They're right.
11
Let's do something about it.
They didn't -- they didn't spend time
12
trying to claim it wasn't happening.
13
recognized the problem and dealt with it.
14
15
16
Yeah.
Q
They
So are you saying at that mill there
wasn't a study to determine -A
It was like here.
It was so obvious.
17
They didn't waste time in studies.
18
they jumped into solving the problem and solved it.
19
Q
All right.
They jumped --
So at that mill they didn't do
20
a study, but I'm asking you about the studies that
21
you were involved in.
22
different --
You were involved in two
23
A
Well --
24
Q
-- studies; correct?
25
A
Well, in three.
Eurocan was a very --
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very detailed, with lots of scientific work.
2
Q
Right.
And the other -- and I can't
3
remember.
4
A
Domtar at Cornwall.
5
Q
Okay.
6
A
Ontario.
7
Q
All right.
What was the other one?
Let's talk about Eurocan.
Was
8
there a process for doing randomized interviews
9
with people that used the river?
10
A
There were a lot of interviews.
How well
11
they were randomized, I don't know.
I met a number
12
of them.
13
selected.
14
think I met a significant proportion of the
15
community there, though.
I'm not sure how the people were
It was a small enough community.
I
16
Q
All right.
17
A
There were no disagreements by the company
18
19
even that the fish tainting was happening.
Q
Okay.
Is it fair to say that in that case
20
you had a lot more evidence of fishermen
21
experiencing fish tainting than five reports?
22
A
Vastly more.
23
Q
Okay.
24
A
And a very considerable number of
25
scientifically controlled tests, not just comments.
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Q
Okay.
2
A
The testing was -- the fish testing itself
3
was costing a half a million bucks a year, to give
4
you some scale of the degree of work done on it.
5
Q
Okay.
And in this case, to come to the
6
conclusions that you've got in your opinion and in
7
your testimony, you have no data about the fish
8
tissue; correct?
9
A
In Jesup?
10
Q
Yes.
11
A
That's correct.
12
Q
You have no data about organoleptic
13
14
15
compounds in the water at Jesup; correct?
A
Scientific data?
No; other than tasting
it myself.
16
Q
You've tasted the water --
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
-- in the Altamaha River?
19
A
Yes.
20
Q
On what occasion did you do that?
21
A
Well, when the riverkeepers first
22
contacted me -- and I get contacted by a lot of
23
environmental groups.
24
fanatics that want to close down the plant, so I
25
say no.
Most of them are fringe
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They contacted me.
I thought, Well, there
2
might be something there.
3
driving past -- I was planning to drive down
4
through Georgia just a couple of weeks later.
5
got out of the car on Interstate 95, went down to
6
the river and had a look, and the -- the color was
7
not visible.
8
though.
9
10
Q
It so happens I was
I did taste kraft mill in the water,
You're saying that you could taste kraft
mill --
11
A
Oh, yeah.
12
Q
-- effluent in the water at I-95?
13
A
Yes.
14
15
So I
It's a distinctive taste that you
don't forget.
Q
In coming to your opinion here in this
16
case, have you reviewed data from the Department of
17
Natural Resources about fishing use of the river?
18
A
No.
19
Q
All right.
So I'm going to ask you to
20
assume that there will be some testimony at the
21
trial, probably by some laypeople, about fish
22
tainting in the Altamaha.
23
what constituents caused that fish tainting; is
24
that correct?
25
A
You don't know exactly
Nobody knows, including me.
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Q
Okay.
And you can't say definitively that
2
the chemicals causing the fish tainting, if there
3
is any, are in the discharge from the Rayonier
4
mill, can you?
5
A
There's no other realistically plausible
6
source.
7
with the fact that I know all too well what these
8
kraft mill effluents are like, it makes me conclude
9
that the mill is causing whatever fish tainting
10
there is.
11
Q
12
So in my mind, that's -- that, combined
And that's based largely on your
experience at other mills; correct?
13
A
Correct.
14
Q
Can you point to any scientific study that
15
supports that opinion?
16
A
That supports which opinion?
17
Q
Your opinion that it must be -- any fish
18
tainting in the Altamaha River or in a river must
19
be attributable to the effluent from a nearby paper
20
mill.
21
A
No.
That -- I'm sorry.
22
don't follow your question.
23
that any paper mill?
24
Q
Well --
25
A
I'm sorry.
I can't see -- I
Any scientific study
That's meaningless.
It just sounds awkward.
Could
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2
you try rephrasing it?
Q
Yes.
I'll try.
You're saying that your
3
conclusion is based on your experience at other
4
mills.
5
A
And also the fact that the -- the mill is
6
the only plausible source of that problem on that
7
river.
8
9
Q
So my question to you is:
Given those two
pieces of data, the mill is on the river --
10
A
Uh-huh.
11
Q
-- and your experience with other mills --
12
A
Uh-huh.
13
Q
-- my question is:
Are you aware of any
14
scientific paper that says that is sufficient to
15
conclude that the pulp mill is the source of the
16
fish tainting?
17
18
A
No.
I can't imagine any way you could
write a scientific paper on that subject --
19
Q
Okay.
20
A
-- on that issue.
21
Q
Because you don't really have the data;
22
23
Because you --
correct?
A
Just the concept.
It's pretty obvious, if
24
there's only one possible source in the river and
25
the problem -- I'm sorry.
It's -- to me, it's so
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self-evident.
2
amenable to any kind of scientific paper I can
3
imagine.
4
5
Q
It's not a scientific issue and not
But the answer to my question is no, you
don't know of any such --
6
A
No.
7
Q
-- scientific paper?
8
A
(No response.)
9
Q
Thank you.
10
11
And, again, you're aware that the permit
requires a river study.
12
A
Correct.
13
Q
And are you aware that that will collect
14
randomized data on fishing use of the river?
15
A
That's correct.
16
Q
And are you aware that that study will --
17
does require water quality sampling for compounds
18
that are known to cause fish tainting?
19
20
A
As I've said before, I'm aware, but it's a
waste of money to do these studies -- that --
21
Q
I understand.
22
A
-- chemical analysis where --
23
Q
I understand.
But EPD has directed and
24
required this study as part of the permit; is that
25
correct?
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A
2
part.
3
the fishermen, of course, and getting as much data
4
as they can from a good body of fishermen is a good
5
idea.
6
Q
And that's part of the study.
7
A
Yeah.
8
9
It is.
I'm suggesting to withdraw that
It's a waste of resources.
Consulting with
That -- that part is good.
The
study is not all bad.
Q
Let me ask you about odor.
You're not
10
proposing any limit for odor in the discharge at
11
the Rayonier Jesup mill, are you?
12
A
No, I haven't.
13
Q
All right.
You're not aware of any pulp
14
mill in the United States with an odor limit for
15
its discharge, are you?
16
A
17
I am not.
MS. BARMEYER:
Can we take just a minute
18
and let me see if I have anything else I want to
19
come back to?
20
MR. BROWN:
21
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
22
Absolutely.
Off the record at
11:01 a.m.
23
(Recess 11:01 a.m. to 11:19 a.m.)
24
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
25
Back on the record at
11:19 p.m.
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2
MS. BARMEYER:
questions, Mr. McCubbin.
3
THE WITNESS:
4
MR. BARRON:
5
6
7
I have no further
Thank you.
All right.
I'll start.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. BARRON:
Q
Mr. McCubbin, I'm Graham Barron, Assistant
8
Attorney General, State of Georgia, here on behalf
9
of EPD.
10
A
Okay.
11
Q
I just have very few questions for you.
12
I'll make it brief.
Okay?
13
A
Okay.
14
Q
When was the last time you were at the
15
16
17
plant?
A
I'd have to look back at my notes.
with Mr. Brown.
I'm sure Rayonier remembers.
18
Q
Speak up, please.
19
A
Sorry.
I'd have to look back at my notes.
20
I was with Mr. Brown.
21
would be -- I think three years.
22
or four years.
And Mark was there, too.
Wasn't it?
23
Q
Three or four years ago?
24
A
You have it on record, I'm sure.
25
I was
It
Three
Okay.
Rayonier
should have it on record.
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2
Q
Okay.
And that was also -- you were at
the river at that time also?
3
A
Yes.
4
Q
Okay.
And you said you were -- I just
5
want to make sure I was clear.
6
not on a boat.
You said you were
You were on the bank.
7
A
No.
8
Q
Okay.
9
A
That's correct.
10
Q
Did you see anyone boating or fishing
11
during that visit?
12
A
No.
13
Q
What was the time of year?
14
remember?
15
A
I don't remember.
Do you
Well, as I recall, we
16
signed a confidentiality agreement not even to
17
discuss the visit.
18
closed, that now --
19
MR. BROWN:
Is that correct, or was that
You can -- I think you can
20
discuss the fact of the visit.
21
the visit and the date are not confidential.
22
MR. McHUGH:
23
THE WITNESS:
24
I think the fact of
I think that's right.
Can I discuss anything that
is not Rayonier confidential data in that event?
25
MR. BROWN:
I'm sorry.
What's the
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question?
2
3
MR. BARRON:
I'm just trying to get the
idea of when he was last --
4
THE WITNESS:
5
MR. BARRON:
6
THE WITNESS:
7
MR. BARRON:
8
THE WITNESS:
9
-- at the river.
Okay.
Fair enough.
And the conditions.
Okay.
BY MR. BARRON:
10
Q
11
or --
12
A
13
Yeah.
So do you recall the time of year roughly
I don't.
I'd have to look back at my
notes.
14
Q
Okay.
15
A
It wasn't hot, so it wasn't summer.
16
Q
Okay.
17
A
Because I don't like the heat.
18
Q
Okay.
I want to ask you about your
19
testimony in paragraph 20, if you want to look at
20
that.
21
A
20?
22
Q
Yes, sir.
You state in the middle there
23
that "I have also been contacted by phone by these
24
regulators asking for my assistance with the
25
permit."
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A
Yeah.
2
Q
Is that with this renewal permit or some
3
4
5
other permit?
A
Well, this permit has been going on for so
many years.
No.
This current permit.
Yeah.
6
Q
Okay.
7
A
I said "asking for assistance with it."
8
It's probably fair to say "asking me for
9
information in pulp and paper technology."
10
Q
Okay.
11
A
Obviously in connection with assistance.
12
They didn't ask me, What should I -- What should
13
the permit be?
14
It was more for a matter of asking for
15
information on how the pulp industry functions and
16
what's technically possible and things like that.
17
18
Q
Okay.
regulators."
So was it -- you say "these
Which regulators contacted you?
19
A
The ones that contacted me were EPD.
20
Q
EPD?
21
A
I've spoken to them, because I've worked
Okay.
Did EPA contact you?
22
with them off and on for years and still -- you
23
know, although I -- it's quite a number of years
24
since I've had a contract with them.
25
technical people will call me to discuss things.
Some of the
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As I said, I'm -- engineers aren't as smart as
2
lawyers.
3
phone for half an hour or sending an e-mail.
4
We don't send bills for talking on the
So they're free to call.
5
them for information, the EPA.
6
exchange.
7
called them or they called me.
8
Q
9
And I also call
It's a nice
So I really couldn't recall whether I
So EPD never -- let me back up.
Sorry.
You said they asked for your assistance
10
with this permit, but I think you just stated
11
earlier they didn't ask you about the terms of the
12
permit.
13
A
They weren't seeking your advice on that.
No.
That's why I corrected the
14
phraseology here.
It was maybe -- obviously, the
15
purpose was -- I mean, they asked about Jesup.
16
wasn't generic.
17
that, or what have you seen somewhere?
But what was this technology or
18
Q
Okay.
19
A
So my assumption was that it was
20
assistance with the permit, but they didn't
21
explicitly say, hey, help me write this permit.
22
23
24
25
Q
It
Okay.
So are you aware that EPA reviewed
the permit before it was issued?
A
Yes.
I've noticed they have some
criticism of it.
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2
3
Q
Are you aware they had the opportunity to
object to the permit before it was issued?
A
I'm not totally familiar with all of the
4
legal differences between commenting, objecting,
5
and what have you.
6
that -- I'm not efficiently familiar with them to
7
even answer your question, I don't think.
8
9
10
11
Q
Okay.
I know there are processes
So you said EPD contacted you for
your assistance.
Do you remember who from EPD
contacted you?
A
Well, I had a meeting -- I was passing
12
through Atlanta on my way to do something else, and
13
Mr. Brown asked me to meet with EPA and EPD.
14
made a presentation there, which I'm sure you have
15
a copy of.
16
there were several people at the meeting.
17
said, Hey, guys, if you want to call afterward,
18
feel free.
19
sending bills.
20
don't remember.
21
knew who was at the meeting.
I hope you do.
You should have.
And I
And
And I
The usual story I told you about not
And I had a few calls from that.
People at the meeting.
We all
I had met them.
22
Q
Do you recall when that meeting was?
23
A
Not "recall."
24
files.
25
was a few years ago.
I
I could dig back in my
I can find my notes.
I can't recall.
It
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Q
Several years ago?
2
A
Oh, yeah.
3
Q
Okay.
4
A
Yes.
5
Q
Okay.
6
7
And was that in Atlanta or --
And you've never -- have you met
with EPA on this permit?
A
They came to that meeting.
There were
8
both EPA and EPD people at that meeting.
But EPA
9
hasn't actually consulted me in any formal way.
10
I said, I know some of the technical people, and
11
we've had the odd phone discussion.
12
MR. BARRON:
Okay.
I don't want to
13
retread ground that's been trod, so I'll leave it
14
at that.
15
MR. BROWN:
16
And, again, this is -- I'm Hutton Brown,
17
20
I have a few questions.
again, for the riverkeepers, for the video.
18
19
Okay.
FURTHER EXAMINATION
BY MR. BROWN:
Q
Mr. McCubbin, Ms. Barmeyer asked you a
21
number of questions about activated sludge and
22
oxygen delignification.
23
Rayonier use those approaches, or are you
24
suggesting those as possibilities?
25
As
A
No.
Are you insisting that
I went to some length in my testimony
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to describe technologies which are well known and
2
widely used because, in my experience, a practical
3
fact, no regulator is going to change a permit to
4
require discharge numbers that are impossible to
5
meet and, hence, shut the plant down.
6
that riverkeepers have openly stated they are
7
not -- their objective is not to shut the plant
8
down.
9
operating but with less damage to the river.
10
And I know
Their objective is the plant continues
So I mentioned these because they're so
11
widely known.
12
things which can be done, including some which I
13
couldn't even discuss because -- I know what
14
Rayonier needs to do, because of the confidential
15
data I have, but I can't -- I know what they're
16
doing.
17
know the solution to it.
18
you the solution, that would be telling you what
19
they're doing, and that's all confidential.
20
quite sure Mark understands what I'm talking about.
21
22
There's a whole bunch of other
I can't tell you what they're doing.
So, no.
And I
And, of course, if I told
I'm
It's not the regulator's job or
the riverkeeper's job to tell Rayonier what to do.
23
But to reiterate, I think it's -- in
24
any -- as a factor of environmental management, at
25
the very least EPD should be aware of whether the
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regulation would shut the plant down or not.
2
their decision what to write, but as a
3
practicality, I can't imagine them tightening it to
4
the point of shutting the plant down.
5
got to know how it's -- show that it's attainable
6
and not un-economically realistic, which is what I
7
tried to do.
8
9
Q
It's
So you've
Ms. Barmeyer asked you some questions
about conversations you had had with fishermen
10
reporting their experience to you.
11
those questions?
Do you recall
12
A
Yeah.
13
Q
Have you obtained information from people
14
who fish on the river from any source other than
15
your personal conversations?
16
A
There are several videos people have taken
17
that I've looked at.
18
professionally produced one.
19
amateur.
20
the Altamaha on YouTube and found a few myself.
21
Q
There was a -- at least one
A number of others,
And they're on YouTube.
I just searched
Could you describe -- on the video -- on
22
that video, were there fishermen talking about
23
their experiences fishing on the river?
24
25
MS. BARMEYER:
Objection.
Hearsay.
BY MR. BROWN:
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Q
You can go ahead and answer.
2
A
They were more talking about the color and
3
the smell than fishing.
I don't think I've
4
actually seen someone on video complaining about
5
the fish tainting.
6
Q
Have you ever talked to James Holland?
7
A
I've met James Holland.
8
Q
Do you remember if he's ever discussed
9
Yes.
with you fishing on the river?
10
A
11
mill.
12
taken a lot of photographs and gathered a lot of --
13
what I would call layman's data.
14
photographs, and so on.
15
Q
Yes.
He is a well-known critic of the
He has spent a lot of time on the river and
Observations,
Now, on Ms. Barmeyer's questions about
16
concluding that the discharge from the mill causes
17
the fish tainting that people report in the river,
18
on that line of questioning, if you know that
19
people have complained of the smell from fish after
20
they have cut them open and cooked them and you
21
know based on your experience what pulp mill
22
discharge smells and tastes like in the river, can
23
you make conclusions about whether or not that the
24
pulp wastewater causes or contributes to that
25
smell, if there are no other plausible sources of
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that smell in the river?
2
MS. BARMEYER:
3
Speculation.
4
BY MR. BROWN:
Objection.
Hearsay.
Lack of foundation.
5
Q
You can go ahead and answer.
6
A
Okay.
Yeah.
I think it's a realistic
7
conclusion as -- as there are no other plausible
8
sources.
9
point to others if they know of some that I don't
Rayonier has had tons of opportunities to
10
know of.
I've never heard of any.
11
characteristics of the smell fit.
12
tasted myself fits.
13
of:
14
duck, it probably is a duck --
The
The water I
You know, it's a little bit
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a
15
Q
Is an expert --
16
A
-- as opposed to numeric, detailed
17
18
19
analysis provided at Eurocan.
Q
Is an expert allowed to use common sense
in reaching a conclusion?
20
A
You're the lawyer.
21
Q
Do you use your common sense when you form
22
23
You tell me.
opinions in your -- in your -A
Yeah.
Of course it's common sense.
24
astonished at the question about -- and the
25
objections of it.
I was
The qualifications to decide
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what -- whether --
2
MS. BARMEYER:
3
MR. BROWN:
Objection.
Not responsive.
I would appreciate it if you
4
would at least let him finish his answer and then
5
move to strike it so that we can have a clean
6
record.
7
BY MR. BROWN:
8
9
10
Q
Would you just finish your answer,
Mr. McCubbin.
A
Yes.
Well, I was amazed to be asked about
11
my expertise in decide -- commenting on whether
12
higher river flows would reduce the visibility of
13
color.
14
school chemistry.
15
16
17
I mean, to me, that's barely even high
It's common sense.
MS. BARMEYER:
Move to strike.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q
My last question, Mr. McCubbin, is:
18
You've been questioned today by lawyers for
19
Rayonier and lawyers for the State for several
20
hours now.
21
they have raised you in any way to withdraw any of
22
your opinions or question the validity of the
23
opinions that you put in your written direct?
Have any of the points or questions
24
A
No.
25
Q
You still feel as strongly as you did when
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2
you wrote that testimony?
A
Yes.
3
MR. BROWN:
4
5
MR. BROWN:
6
MS. BARMEYER:
7
THE WITNESS:
8
MR. BROWN:
9
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
10
Okay.
That's all I have.
That's all I have.
Nothing further.
Okay.
All right.
Off the record at
11:32 a.m.
11
(Off video.)
12
MR. BROWN:
So in terms of exhibits, the
13
one document we are attaching to the deposition and
14
being tendered is going to be Petitioner's
15
Exhibit 1 to this deposition, which is
16
Mr. McCubbin's corrected written direct, with
17
Exhibits 1 through 7 attached, all in one thing.
18
And then -- do you have yours?
19
MS. BARMEYER:
Yes.
We have Respondent's
20
Exhibits 1 and 2, which should also go with the
21
deposition.
22
23
MR. BROWN:
Neil, you have the right and
24
the opportunity to read and sign this transcript
25
and make corrections.
I think we need to do
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that --
2
THE WITNESS:
3
MR. BROWN:
Yes.
-- because there are going to
4
be some spelling issues, if nothing else.
5
will utilize the right to read and sign the
6
transcript.
So we
7
(Deposition adjourned at 11:35 a.m.)
8
(Signature reserved.)
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The following reporter and firm
disclosures were presented at this proceeding for
review by counsel:
REPORTER DISCLOSURES
The following representations and
disclosures are made in compliance with Georgia
law, more specifically:
Article 10 (B) of the Rules and Regulations of the
Board of Court Reporting (disclosure forms),
O.C.G.A. 9-11-28 (c) (disqualification of reporter
for financial interest),
O.C.G.A. 15-14-37 (a) and (b) (prohibitions
against contracts except on a case-by-case
basis).
- I am a certified reporter in the State of
Georgia. - I am a subcontractor for Tiffany Alley
Veritext.
- I have been assigned to make a complete and
accurate record of these proceedings.
- I have no relationship of interest in the matter
on which I am reporting which would disqualify
me from making a verbatim record or maintaining
my obligation of impartiality in compliance with
the Code of Professional Ethics.
- I have no direct contract with any party in
this action, and my compensation is determined
solely by the terms of my subcontractor
agreement.
FIRM DISCLOSURES
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
- Tiffany Alley Veritext was contacted to provide
reporting services by the noticing or taking
attorney in this matter.
- There is no agreement in place that is prohibited
by O.C.G.A. 15-14-37 (a) and (b).
Any
case-specific discounts are automatically applied
to all parties, at such time as any party
receives
a discount.
- Transcripts:
The transcript of this proceeding
as produced will be a true, correct, and complete
record of the colloquies, questions, and answers
as submitted by the certified court reporter.
- Exhibits:
No changes will be made to the
exhibits
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as submitted by the reporter, attorneys, or
witnesses.
2
3
- Password-Protected Access:
Transcripts and
exhibits relating to this proceeding will be
4
uploaded to a password-protected repository, to
which all ordering parties will have access.
5
6
7
8
9
10
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12
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CERTIFICATE
STATE OF GEORGIA:
COUNTY OF FULTON:
3
I hereby certify that the foregoing
4
transcript was taken down, as stated in the
caption, and the colloquies, questions, and answers
5
were reduced to typewriting under my direction;
that the transcript is a true and correct record of
6
the evidence given upon said proceeding.
I further certify that I am not a relative
7
or employee or attorney of any party, nor am I
financially interested in the outcome of this
8
action.
I have no relationship of interest in this
9
matter which would disqualify me from maintaining
my obligation of impartiality in compliance with
10
the Code of Professional Ethics.
I have no direct contract with any party
11
in this action, and my compensation is based solely
on the terms of my subcontractor agreement.
12
Nothing in the arrangements made for this
proceeding impacts my absolute commitment to serve
13
all parties as an impartial officer of the court.
14
This the 14th day of April, 2016.
15
16
17
<%Signature%>
_________________________________
18
19
Patricia K. Thomas, RPR, CCR-2626
20
21
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TIFFANY ALLEY, A VERITEXT COMPANY
2
FIRM CERTIFICATE AND DISCLOSURE
3
4
Tiffany Alley Veritext represents that the
foregoing transcript as produced by our Production
5
Coordinators, Georgia Certified Notaries, is a true,
correct and complete transcript of the colloquies,
6
questions and answers as submitted by the certified
court reporter in this case.
7
Tiffany Alley Veritext
further represents that the attached exhibits, if any,
are a true, correct and complete copy as submitted by
8
the certified reporter, attorneys or witness in this case;
and that the exhibits were handled and produced exclusively
9
through our Production Coordinators, Georgia Certified
Notaries. Copies of notarized production certificates
10
related to this proceeding are available upon request to
[email protected].
11
Tiffany Alley Veritext is not taking this deposition
12
under any relationship that is prohibited by
OCGA 15-14-37(a)and(b).
13
Case-specific discounts are
automatically applied to all parties, at such time as any
party receives a discount. Ancillary services such as
14
calendar and financial reports are available to all
parties upon request.
15
16
17
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TO: Hutton Brown
2
Re: Signature of Deponent Neil McCubbin
3
Date Errata due back at our offices:
05/14/2016
4
5
Greetings:
6
The deponent has reserved the right to read and sign.
Please have the deponent review the attached PDF
7
transcript, noting any changes or corrections on the
attached PDF Errata.
8
The deponent may fill out the
Errata electronically or print and fill out manually.
9
Once the Errata is signed by the deponent and notarized,
10
please mail it to the offices of Tiffany Alley (below).
11
When the signed Errata is returned to us, we will seal
12
and forward to the taking attorney to file with the
original transcript.
13
We will also send copies of the
Errata to all ordering parties.
14
If the signed Errata is not returned within the time
15
above, the original transcript may be filed with the
court without the signature of the deponent.
16
17
18
Please send completed Errata to:
19
Tiffany Alley Veritext
20
1075 Peachtree Street NE, #3625
21
Atlanta, GA 30309
22
(770) 343-9696
23
24
25
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ERRATA
2
I, the undersigned, do hereby certify that I have read the
transcript of my testimony, and that
3
4
___ There are no changes noted.
5
___ The following changes are noted:
6
Pursuant to Rule 30(7)(e) of the Federal Rules of Civil
7
Procedure and/or OCGA 9-11-30(e), any changes in form or
substance which you desire to make to your testimony shall
8
be entered upon the deposition with a statement of the
reasons given for making them.
9
To assist you in making any
such corrections, please use the form below.
If additional
pages are necessary, please furnish same and attach.
10
11
Page _____ Line ______ Change _________________________
12
_______________________________________________________
13
Reason for change _____________________________________
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Page _____ Line ______ Change _________________________
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_______________________________________________________
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Page _____ Line ______ Change _________________________
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_______________________________________________________
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Page _____ Line ______ Change _________________________
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_______________________________________________________
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Page _____ Line ______ Change _________________________
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_______________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________________
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Page _____ Line ______ Change _________________________
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_______________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________________
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_____________________________________
DEPONENT'S SIGNATURE
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Sworn to and subscribed before me this ___ day of
22
_________________, _______.
23
__________________________________
24
NOTARY PUBLIC
25
My Commission Expires:_____________
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[& - 9:40]
&
& 3:13 4:13
0
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2
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[a.m. - assimilative]
a
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[brown - colloquies]
55:2,6 56:4,6,12
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buckeye 94:9
bucks 105:3
budweiser 85:9,10
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building 3:6
built 26:4 61:19
66:15 81:8
bunch 118:11
burn 64:20 65:1
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burning 67:1
business 41:21 43:5
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buy 71:17
buying 16:22
c
c 20:18 25:7 46:19
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c.v. 19:10 35:3
calculate 25:22
calculated 85:16
calculations 12:4
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calendar 128:14
call 28:22 30:14
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called 13:13,19
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calls 116:19
March 29, 2016
Page 4
canada 8:18 11:25
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canadian 19:20
candidatecanditate
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canton 88:22 89:7,9
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capable 46:8
capacity 12:3 66:22
capital 44:16,18
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capitol 4:7
capp 5:1 7:13,13
caption 6:19 127:4
car 106:5
career 25:17
carolina 39:1 89:7
carries 64:14
carry 41:21 69:6
carrying 32:15
case 1:5 6:20,21,22
14:2 15:10,13,24
17:1,6,11 21:15
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catch 38:9 97:20
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catching 32:16,18
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category 14:19 22:2
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caught 33:18 38:7
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cause 53:7 54:4
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caused 36:24 50:23
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causes 120:16,24
causing 17:20 36:5
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90:18 101:2 102:3,3
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ccr 1:19 127:19
cell 6:4
cellulose 41:11
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71:2,3,6,9,22 72:3
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celulosa 82:16
center 3:21
certain 29:9 73:21
certainly 21:9 28:1
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certificate 127:1
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certificates 128:9
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change 70:4 89:4
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changes 89:3 125:25
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changing 59:5
chapter 65:12,15
characteristics 53:6
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check 55:21
checked 50:18
chemical 26:4 28:17
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chemicals 17:25
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chemistry 14:5
28:17 32:16,21,22
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chile 82:14,18 86:4
choose 46:10
chooses 56:12
chose 65:20 83:7
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chunk 25:17
citizens 22:4
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claim 30:5 103:12
clarifiers 92:17
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clark 16:21
clean 14:24 122:5
cleans 97:7
clear 112:5
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clever 46:22
client 16:20 68:24
close 15:3 17:2
28:20 40:25 52:2,3
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closed 112:18
coast 17:5
coauthored 35:9
code 125:14 127:10
coffee 52:10,11,11
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collect 51:7 58:12
109:13
collected 16:6 58:22
58:25
collection 59:2
colloquies 125:24
127:4 128:5
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[color - coordinators]
color 21:13 22:10
28:19 49:23 50:14
50:24 52:10,11,22
52:24 53:4 54:10
55:15,24 56:19,21
56:23 57:7,11,17
58:4,13,13,18,23,24
59:3,4,6,11,25 60:6
60:7 64:14 78:4,5,7
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81:23 84:8 85:7
86:11 87:1,4,12,13
87:16,18,25 88:7,16
89:20 90:21 106:6
120:2 122:13
colored 28:18
columbia 17:6 21:11
combination 37:1
combine 56:25 60:2
combined 107:6
come 105:5 110:19
comes 57:23 97:10
comfortable 54:19
coming 93:14
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comment 43:25 71:7
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commenting 27:20
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comments 98:12
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commission 131:25
commitment 127:12
commodity 43:16,23
44:17 71:11 75:14
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common 17:9 27:3
66:15 67:12 80:9
121:18,21,23
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commonly 11:13
community 104:13
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companies 41:21
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March 29, 2016
Page 5
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compensation
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competitors 41:20
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complain 17:10
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complainer 24:7,7
complaining 22:10
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complaint 97:6,19
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complaints 17:12
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complete 125:11,23
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completing 14:13
compliance 67:21
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compounds 36:20
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compromise 72:17
concept 108:23
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conferences 34:16
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confess 73:21
confidential 25:2
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confidentiality
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constituents 36:20
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consultant 28:5
consultants 11:24
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consulted 117:9
consulting 110:2
contact 114:20
contacted 40:10,11
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content 12:5 53:5,18
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continue 6:7 29:12
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continued 4:1
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continuing 47:20
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contract 114:24
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contracts 125:8
contrast 50:22
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contributes 120:24
control 25:23 36:4
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controlled 104:25
controlling 12:11
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conversations 6:4
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conversion 46:18
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convert 25:6 41:17
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64:4
converting 55:16
67:20
convinced 101:1
cook 21:18 97:22
cooked 97:10
120:20
coordinators 128:5
128:9
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[copies - depth]
copies 68:9 128:9
129:12
copy 8:22 68:6
116:15 128:7
cornwall 21:2 103:6
104:4
correct 10:4 18:6
29:25 30:1,25 31:1
35:5,22 36:10,21,22
40:6,7 43:4,10,14
47:11,12 49:19,21
49:22 50:8,18,24
53:12,17 54:2,16
55:19,25 56:20 57:8
59:22 60:8,9 62:21
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corrected 115:13
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corrections 123:25
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cosmopolis 74:7
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77:4,13,23 78:3,13
cost 24:20 26:5,8,15
44:13,17,18 61:3,4
61:9,13,14,16 62:16
62:20,22 63:6,18
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March 29, 2016
Page 6
costing 105:3
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course 21:19 26:13
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court 5:21,23 7:24
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28:12 29:11 42:5
55:5 92:3 93:6,8
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courts 13:23
create 22:25
creek 87:5
crestbrook 21:10
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criteria 94:16,20
critic 120:10
criticism 115:25
crossing 38:23
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cup 52:13,14
current 11:15 63:2
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currently 77:4,6,14
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curves 26:11
customers 71:13,16
72:3,9
cut 21:18 90:8 96:25
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cyclical 43:6 44:7
d
d.j. 3:11
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damage 14:3 118:9
dark 87:22 93:1
darker 87:13
data 16:6 19:25
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date 6:10 50:2,13
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dated 92:11,13
dates 93:23
day 12:4 48:20 49:5
50:14,19 91:10
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days 16:22 48:12
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deal 10:12,22 13:1
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dealing 11:7 12:11
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deals 14:15
dealt 103:13
debate 17:17 36:3
decent 58:6
decide 19:24 121:25
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decision 45:10 119:2
decline 73:20
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decrease 25:13
defend 11:12
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definitively 107:1
degree 29:25 31:8
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del 16:12
delay 27:7
delig 70:19 72:17,22
73:1,5,15 74:3,7,10
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76:14,17 77:4 80:12
82:4
delignification
79:23 80:22 81:2,22
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delivered 68:24
demonstrate 49:23
department 1:6
31:14 106:16
depend 66:21
depending 82:2
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depends 63:3 64:18
deponent 129:2,6,6
129:7,9,15
deponent's 131:20
deposition 1:13 6:6
6:12 8:6 9:9 123:13
123:15,21 124:7
128:11 130:8
depth 93:5,7
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[describe - engineering]
describe 118:1
119:21
described 15:21
description 2:2
design 32:17 33:1
33:16 101:19
designed 27:7
desire 130:7
despite 21:5
destroy 13:17
detail 78:5
detailed 26:2 43:19
47:22 104:1 121:16
details 19:6 62:8
99:2
determine 37:24
47:9 100:15 101:9
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determined 87:17
125:15
develop 35:23 36:8
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developed 26:11
diaper 25:7 46:4
diapers 71:20,24
difference 52:9,10
52:16 88:4
differences 116:4
different 31:18
33:22 53:8,10 60:12
71:12,19,25 72:1,9
72:9,15,15 75:8,9
92:12,14 98:2,3
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difficult 65:4,4 66:9
dig 11:15 116:23
dilute 28:18
diluted 85:9
direct 2:4 8:20 9:1
10:2 18:18 20:16
22:3 29:7 65:22
122:23 123:16
125:14 127:10
directed 23:10
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March 29, 2016
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discharges 12:12
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discipline 30:12,15
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disciplines 32:2 33:9
disclose 77:18
disclosure 5:22
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disclosures 125:1,3
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discount 125:22
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discounts 125:21
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discuss 19:18 28:13
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discussed 120:8
discussing 15:8
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discussion 9:17 29:5
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dispose 65:5 66:9
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dispute 13:15
disputed 13:19
disqualification
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dissolving 25:8 44:3
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distinguish 52:20
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divers 15:12
diving 15:11,18 16:4
division 1:6 7:12,14
doctor 6:24
document 10:4
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doing 11:17 17:13
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104:8 118:16,16,19
dollars 17:18 61:24
100:22
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domtar 21:2 34:8
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donald 3:11 7:7
doubt 24:15
downstream 49:20
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dozen 24:3 39:15,17
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drive 106:3
driven 73:8
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dropped 31:16
dry 90:10
duck 121:13,14,14
due 129:3
duly 8:10
e
e 115:3 130:6,7
earlier 115:11
earth 2:11 49:15
50:2 92:6,10,25
eat 96:18 97:3,8,9
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eaten 39:10 97:2
eating 38:8 97:9
ecology 30:6,9,12,18
ecometrics 32:6
economically 119:6
effect 11:1,2 15:16
18:1 28:8,9,14
87:24
effective 67:3
effects 15:5 23:21
28:10 30:10
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efficiently 116:6
effluent 14:5,6
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85:6 86:7 91:9
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effluents 14:7 107:8
either 34:6 35:3
36:25 94:23 97:18
electronically 129:8
employee 127:7
ended 16:4
energy 66:18
engineer 26:5 30:3
32:8
engineering 28:18
29:25 61:21
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[engineers - find]
engineers 13:22
25:19 30:17 32:7
115:1
english 13:25
entered 130:8
entitled 63:13 80:21
environment 17:14
19:16 32:4,9 34:14
34:21 35:7,11 78:7
environmental 1:6
3:21 7:12,14 15:7
16:10,19,24 19:17
22:12 24:10 40:12
73:9 84:8 90:14
91:7 105:23 118:24
environmentally
65:5 66:9
epa 25:21 70:14
75:22 101:20
114:20 115:5,22
116:13 117:6,8,8
epd 1:5 6:20,23
101:4,17 109:23
111:9 114:19,20
115:8 116:8,9,13
117:8 118:25
equations 26:12
equivalent 15:8
errata 129:3,7,8,9
129:11,13,14,18
130:1
especially 70:8
essentially 12:1
46:21 59:4 81:7,7
84:19 96:22
estimate 61:14,16
62:6 64:8 85:15
95:21
estimated 26:8
ethics 125:14 127:10
eurocan 21:23 31:16
31:19 34:13 35:2,10
35:17 103:25 104:7
121:17
March 29, 2016
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evaporate 64:20
evaporated 66:17
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event 112:24
evergreen 88:21
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evidence 29:12
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evident 102:11
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exact 62:22 64:7
exacting 71:10,22
exactly 30:20 35:14
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examination 2:15
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examined 8:10
example 15:1 28:10
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exchange 115:6
exclusively 128:8
excuse 20:5 42:11
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exhaustive 19:10
exhibit 2:2,4,8,11
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exhibits 2:1,6 9:3,4
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existing 63:4
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expert 8:7 22:12,21
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expertise 10:12
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experts 22:23 32:23
34:2
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explain 20:22 22:9
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84:17
explanation 56:9
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extensively 25:9
extent 20:19 48:22
52:20 53:2
external 25:15
extremely 27:3 61:5
eye 88:12
eyeball 85:15
eyes 52:7 78:20
f
fact 47:4 61:4,17
67:13 68:1 75:24
84:3,21 91:14 93:11
102:5,18 103:8
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factor 118:24
factories 31:15
factors 45:3 56:25
failed 17:22
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faint 87:1,1
fair 43:25 71:7
103:1 104:19 113:6
114:8
fairly 50:6
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famous 15:1
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far 17:6 51:8 59:10
61:15 87:20 88:15
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feasibility 25:18
federal 130:6
feel 116:18 122:25
feet 52:5,6,14,16
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fellow 48:14,21
fiberlines 80:11
fibers 1:10 7:23
29:20 55:15 101:8
fibrelines 80:25
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field 22:24
figure 80:5 82:3
file 129:12
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files 116:24
fill 129:7,8
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final 13:21
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financial 43:1 125:7
128:14
financially 127:7
find 11:13 13:25
17:22 24:7 33:23
35:2,3 58:3 65:18
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[find - great]
90:17 116:24
fine 9:14,24 21:18
22:1 53:21
finish 14:11 27:18
37:8 63:20,21 122:4
122:8
firm 125:1,17 128:2
firms 16:18
first 8:10 11:18,22
20:25 40:10,11
65:10 66:24 69:10
88:13 90:9 92:11,17
105:21
firsthand 24:13
fish 12:6 14:15 16:8
17:3,4,7,10,20 18:1
18:9 19:12 20:15,20
20:23 21:5,13,15,17
21:17,21,25 31:4,6
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32:19,19 33:2,2,5
33:17 34:6 35:21
36:1,21,24 37:25
38:7,9 39:7,10
89:21 95:2,15 96:8
96:18,21,22,22,25
97:7,16,21 98:8,10
98:12,14,21 99:2,10
99:14,19,20,22,25
100:2,7,11,13,22
101:11 102:3,6,16
102:21,22 103:3,4,9
104:18,21 105:2,7
106:21,23 107:2,9
107:17 108:16
109:18 119:14
120:5,17,19
fisheries 31:11
33:16 34:3
fisherman 38:4
fishermen 17:9
21:16 38:11 95:3,10
102:23 104:20
110:3,4 119:9,22
March 29, 2016
Page 9
fishes 65:13 95:25
fishing 32:18 33:1
38:3,6,13,16 96:4
106:17 109:14
112:10 119:23
120:3,9
fit 121:11
fits 102:7 121:12
five 16:16 95:22
102:23 104:21
flat 38:16,20
flesh 17:4
floor 6:14
florida 39:1 94:10
flow 28:8,10,14 50:1
50:6 59:25,25 60:2
84:4 90:2,6,9
flown 41:7
flows 122:12
fluff 71:23
fluid 85:7
focus 20:2
focusing 18:25
27:19 57:2
foia 34:15
follow 56:12,12
88:11 107:22
following 48:5 125:1
125:4 130:5
follows 8:11 49:14
food 31:14 100:6,7
foregoing 127:3
128:4
forest 21:10 34:9
forestry 65:13
forever 102:12
forget 106:14
form 121:21 130:7,9
formal 117:9
formalized 17:12
former 16:20
forms 125:6
forth 59:3
forward 43:2
129:12
foster 8:18
found 63:5 119:20
foundation 22:15,25
23:4 121:3
four 16:15 68:9
92:10 101:5 111:22
111:23
free 115:4 116:18
french 13:25
frequently 89:4
96:21
fringe 105:23
front 86:16
fulton 127:2
function 28:5 44:12
functions 114:15
fundamental 36:14
furnish 130:9
further 19:19 27:6
56:9 111:1 117:18
123:6 127:6 128:7
g
g 10:21
ga 6:20 128:10
129:21
gathered 120:12
gathering 103:4
general 4:6 14:8
18:16 19:12,23
100:18 111:8
generally 10:25 11:4
30:23 44:6 63:5
89:4 98:24,25
generate 45:18
generates 41:18
64:11 66:7
generic 84:25
115:16
georgia 1:1,6,16,18
3:6,9,16,24 4:5,8,15
4:22 5:21 6:13,14
6:22 7:14 39:1
84:20 94:9 106:4
111:8 125:4,10
127:2 128:5,9
getting 23:15 97:11
110:3
give 42:13 58:17
70:20 86:14 95:21
105:3
given 41:17 43:24
57:13 61:16 62:13
108:8 127:6 130:8
giving 31:19
glass 85:3
glatfelter 83:20 84:7
84:13 86:20
go 6:7 10:7 19:4
27:10 63:17,24,25
120:1 121:5 123:20
goes 13:9 22:14
28:19 45:15
goggle 92:10
going 8:5,19,23 9:1
9:7,21 10:5,7,9,15
13:17 14:13,21 18:4
24:16,17 27:13
33:17,19 40:14
41:23 56:16 58:23
63:10 64:1 68:12
71:5 85:25 86:10
106:19 114:4 118:3
123:14 124:3
good 11:7 25:16
29:16,17,17 38:10
69:23 88:23 110:4,4
110:7
google 2:11 49:14
50:2 92:5,25
grade 25:7 41:13
46:4 47:25,25 71:11
80:7 83:1
grades 43:12 44:3
44:24 46:9 74:9
76:17 77:5 80:9
graham 4:3 7:11
111:7
great 17:16 55:12
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[greenlaw - invest]
greenlaw 3:5
greenpeace 15:8
greetings 129:5
ground 117:13
group 19:16
groups 15:7 19:18
105:23
guess 12:9 19:14
27:25 50:15 85:9
86:10 97:1
guessing 86:8
guinness 85:23
guys 26:6 116:17
h
h 10:21 26:20
habits 31:7
hague 13:14
half 24:2 39:14,17
40:22 55:24 56:1,8
67:13,14,15 80:11
80:25 81:5,9,15
105:3 115:3
hand 12:18 96:11
handful 9:21
handing 86:1
handle 64:18
handled 128:8
handling 15:6
hands 32:25
handy 13:6
happening 11:15
15:20 16:5 103:12
104:18
happens 106:2
happy 12:13
haul 45:15
heading 66:2 69:10
hear 97:17
heard 73:9 95:1
97:19,20,22 121:10
hearing 8:7 42:4
hearings 1:1 6:22
hearsay 22:21
119:24 121:2
March 29, 2016
Page 10
heartier 85:18
heat 113:17
heavily 16:15
held 6:12,21
help 21:12 115:21
helping 11:12
hey 115:21 116:17
high 28:10,16 71:9
72:3 73:16 122:13
higher 43:17,23
44:3 47:5 122:12
highly 41:11 42:18
42:19
highway 4:21
hilburn 5:5
hinkle 3:19 7:9,9
hold 14:19 18:9 29:3
holland 120:6,7
honestly 34:15
35:15
hope 116:15
hot 113:15
hour 115:3
hours 122:20
house 7:20
huge 14:7 19:24
21:5 30:15 66:23,25
huh 19:3 35:1 58:14
60:4 65:9 66:6
68:18 69:13 75:3
79:6,21 81:14 85:5
92:23 93:24 108:10
108:12
hundreds 37:15,18
hutton 3:3 7:5 56:11
117:16 129:1
i
icj 13:24 14:1
idea 86:14 94:4
110:5 113:3
identified 37:12,18
identify 7:3 17:19
65:10
imagine 87:24
108:17 109:3 119:3
imagining 37:19
impact 12:6 14:6
16:10,13 24:10 30:8
30:22 72:23 73:15
88:16
impacts 127:12
impartial 127:13
impartiality 125:13
127:9
implicitly 46:3
important 23:20,25
78:14
impossible 118:4
improved 91:8
improvement 57:1
improvements 26:9
inadmissible 22:22
include 24:11 31:3
included 15:18
20:19 30:23 80:12
81:1,10,16
includes 36:2 38:22
80:6
including 10:14
15:6 20:16 22:5
24:21 26:19 28:11
36:11 55:23 106:25
118:12
incorporate 81:9
incorporation 22:20
increase 57:15 60:6
increased 25:11
increases 56:21
indefinite 69:24
index 2:1,15
individual 26:12,16
32:10 38:1 45:5,22
individually 26:11
industrial 14:9
16:22
industries 21:10
34:9
industry 19:17 44:2
73:6 84:21 114:15
infer 53:17 102:5
influence 88:7
influenced 93:3
influent 59:5
information 12:21
23:20 25:2 44:15
47:14,22 58:20 73:3
73:18 75:16 77:10
77:12,19,20,21,22
78:12,25 99:7
102:14 114:9,15
115:5 119:13
initially 32:5
input 101:19
insignificant 61:4
insisted 13:17
insisting 117:22
install 83:8
installed 74:22 82:4
installing 73:8 74:25
instances 12:25 13:9
insulation 72:16
interactions 65:14
interest 125:7,12
127:8
interested 127:7
interesting 74:20
interfere 6:6
interfering 31:7
internally 34:10
international 13:14
interpret 33:7
interstate 41:1,1
106:5
intervenor 1:11
4:10
interviews 104:8,10
intracoastal 38:22
39:25
intrinsic 72:4,10,20
invest 44:5,8,9
45:10
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[investigating - little]
investigating 21:7
investigation 20:20
invited 19:23
involved 11:22 12:2
12:10 14:4 16:15,19
16:20 20:25 27:2
28:2 31:11 32:2,11
33:4,7,9,25 34:2
36:6 103:21,21
issue 11:8 15:15
21:25 27:4 77:15
78:6 79:1 89:20
93:5 108:20 109:1
issued 2:8 115:23
116:2
issues 10:13,23
12:16 13:1,10 14:16
19:2,12 20:15,24
21:15 78:7 124:4
j
jac 7:13
james 5:1 120:6,7
jar 85:4 86:7,9
jen 5:5
jesup 4:22 17:1
55:23 57:12,18,20
57:21 58:2,4 61:3,6
64:4 70:25 72:18
81:22 86:17 105:9
105:13 110:11
115:15
job 28:4 118:21,22
join 19:23
joined 27:1
joint 9:10
journals 34:22
jr 4:18
judge 29:11
judgment 92:2
jumped 103:17,18
justice 13:14
justify 22:17
March 29, 2016
Page 11
k
k 1:19 127:19
keen 15:2
keep 14:21 29:3
45:23
keeps 43:20
kept 74:24
key 21:25
killing 31:6
kilometers 82:19
kimberly 16:21
kind 31:16 33:17
52:18 74:23 98:14
98:21 109:2
kinds 30:24 32:1
80:8
king 4:13
kitimat 17:5
knew 116:21
know 10:1 25:14
29:19 31:8 34:15
35:6 37:1,3 38:19
40:11 43:21,24 45:7
47:10 48:10,19,21
48:22 49:2 50:1
51:3,8,9 52:18 53:5
53:25 54:3,25 58:19
59:23 62:15,20 64:3
64:7 69:19 70:15
71:8 72:25 73:14
75:10,14,18 76:13
76:15,16,20 77:2,6
77:7,25 79:4 86:10
86:11 90:4 96:13
97:16 98:14,16,20
98:23,24,25 99:1,10
99:14,17,22,24
100:6,10,13 101:2
101:21 104:11
106:22 107:7 109:5
114:23 116:5
117:10 118:5,13,15
118:17 119:5
120:18,21 121:9,10
121:12
knowledge 26:14
34:19 36:5 39:12
49:3 57:19 101:24
known 28:19 72:6
100:25 101:5,10
109:18 118:1,11
120:10
knows 37:5,17,20
106:25
kraft 16:11 25:23
75:6 82:21,24 83:12
83:13,18,21 94:8
101:3 106:7,9 107:8
l
l 3:19 4:3
lab 17:18 32:25
label 9:12,16
laboratory 31:23
36:18 59:2
lack 36:5 121:3
lady 26:7
lager 85:19
lagoon 87:18,20,22
88:2,9
lagoons 86:15,19
87:7,17 88:6 92:24
lake 14:24 15:1,5,9
15:23 16:2
large 13:16 61:5
64:11 79:14 87:17
largely 107:11
late 65:16
latent 16:24
laughs 38:10
law 3:4,12,20,21 4:4
4:12,19 125:5
lawrence 21:5,6
lawyer 7:8 121:20
lawyers 7:6,10
115:2 122:18,19
lay 23:4
laying 22:14
layman's 120:13
laypeople 106:21
leader 26:5
learned 66:14
leave 117:13
left 31:17
legal 6:10 8:1 16:18
116:4
length 26:21 117:25
leo 5:4 6:9
level 28:19 51:3 54:1
72:5
levels 28:14
liable 16:23
life 69:24
light 86:9
liked 74:23
limit 35:24 36:1,9
36:12 110:10,14
limited 80:2
limits 84:13
line 25:7 38:9 45:19
47:1,16 80:24
120:18 130:11,14
130:17,20,23 131:1
131:4,7,10,13,16
linear 28:20
lines 46:7 74:21
76:14 82:4
liquor 37:2,11,14
64:19 65:2 66:16,19
list 9:11 12:15,18
14:18 18:15 19:10
19:15
listed 90:13
lists 45:9
lite 85:20
literature 44:2
litigating 11:11
litigation 16:24
litsup 128:10
little 12:23 24:23
28:12 52:17 73:5
87:5 121:12
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[live - million]
live 8:17 24:1
llc 1:10
llp 4:13
local 17:14
located 6:13 82:17
89:13
location 39:5 100:10
locations 78:20
lodged 10:2
long 11:17 26:22,24
27:10 44:8,9 45:15
58:11 81:12
longer 21:3 74:11,12
look 8:20 9:5 10:18
12:1 15:2 21:4 36:8
45:8,14 48:4 49:13
58:9 61:17 65:7
70:18 79:19 80:14
82:7,8 85:8,12 86:3
86:7 87:8,9 88:9,18
89:16 91:9 92:17
94:14 100:22 106:6
111:16,19 113:12
113:19
looked 21:17 23:23
30:21 35:15 50:3,17
119:17
looking 14:4 15:4
16:2,6,8 17:13
18:14 27:11 43:2
51:19,24 69:9
looks 69:1 89:17
121:13
lot 14:25 41:5,6
47:10 57:22 64:14
94:6 96:11 104:10
104:20 105:22
120:11,12,12
lots 14:9 40:11
104:1
low 43:9 50:6
lower 44:6 66:5
lunch 55:8,10
March 29, 2016
Page 12
maximum 84:14
mccubbin 1:14 2:5,5
m 4:18
2:8 6:25,25 7:1 8:8
machinery 32:23
8:9,14,16,19 10:1
mail 115:3 129:10
10:18 18:25 20:10
maintaining 125:13
23:15 26:17 29:2,16
127:9
54:23 68:17 92:9
maintenance 69:23
94:6 111:2,7 117:20
major 16:18 21:25
122:9,17 129:2
27:23
mccubbin's 123:16
majority 67:8
making 25:7,8 41:11 mchugh 4:18 7:19
7:19 112:22
41:12 44:5,13,17
45:11,12,14 46:9,22 mean 35:6 47:6 70:4
80:13 91:2 115:15
61:20 67:22 71:20
122:13
71:20 125:13 130:8
meaning
81:2
130:8
meaningless 107:23
managed 33:22
management 32:11 means 66:20
meant 11:14
45:9 61:22 65:14
measurable 14:3
118:24
measure 58:5 86:12
manner 65:5 66:10
measures 25:23
manually 129:8
35:24 36:9
manzer 5:2 7:17,17
meet
116:13 118:5
march 1:15 6:11
meeting 69:15
92:13
116:11,16,20,21,22
marietta 1:17 3:7
117:7,8
6:13
meetings 15:6 33:20
mark 5:3 7:15 8:23
95:20
9:8 68:12 92:6
megan 3:19 7:9
111:20 118:20
member 30:23
marked 9:18 49:17
memo 69:9
68:14 92:7
memorandum
market 44:13 83:1
68:23
mass 59:25 60:2
memory 13:5
master 15:25
mentioned 21:22
material 22:22
39:13 59:14 74:1
87:23
77:16 83:24 118:10
materials 4:20 7:16
menus
55:8
7:18,20
met 23:22 29:18
matter 10:8 18:17
31:13 95:8 104:11
29:21 114:14
104:14 116:21
125:12,19 127:9
117:5 120:7
matters 10:6
methods 59:2
m
microbiologists
30:17
microphones 6:2,5
middle 66:3 98:4
113:22
mileman 5:4 6:9
miles 40:2 41:3,5
mill 11:1,20,20 12:3
13:10,16 14:3,5,6
14:23 15:14 16:1,11
16:12,14,21 17:4,13
17:16,17 20:24 21:2
21:3 24:10 25:11
26:3,10,13 27:24
30:10,22 31:22 32:7
32:11 34:10 35:23
36:8 37:11 39:5
40:8,9,24 41:3,7
46:19 47:15 49:9,10
57:12,18,20,21 58:2
61:3,7,19 64:7
66:25 67:19,22
70:25 72:18 73:2,11
75:4,6,16 76:10,22
77:23,25 78:3,17
79:5,10,12 81:22
82:14,15,21,24 83:5
83:10,12,15,18,21
84:7 86:4 88:19,20
89:7,9,10,12,13
90:5,13,18,25 91:6
91:15,17,19 92:11
93:15 94:8,9 97:1
99:16,18 101:3
102:6 103:9,14,19
106:7,10 107:4,8,9
107:20,23 108:5,9
108:15 110:11,14
120:11,16,21
mill's 45:23
miller 85:20
million 17:18 25:5
31:23 36:18 42:23
44:16 45:10 46:25
61:11 105:3
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[millions - okay]
millions 61:23,25
100:21
mills 11:7,12,25
19:20 25:24,25 30:8
64:19 66:15 67:2,5
67:13,14 69:14
70:14 74:4 79:23
80:1,3,6,6 83:10
88:24 94:7 102:8,19
107:12 108:4,11
mind 107:6
minimal 18:1
minimum 72:4,10
minute 86:19
110:17
minutes 29:19
mississippi 14:8
mix 64:19 66:16
85:11
mixed 52:25
mixes 78:18
mixture 19:17
model 26:5
modern 55:22 64:18
66:15,17 67:2
moment 101:25
money 44:5 46:4
67:25 109:20
monitoring 50:19
montes 16:12
morning 29:16,17
29:17
mouth 39:24
move 15:2 29:7
63:14 91:22 122:5
122:15
moving 16:3
multiple 23:25
n
name 6:9,24 7:5
8:14,16 29:18 32:6
38:24 74:8 82:14
names 89:2
March 29, 2016
Page 13
narrow 16:4
natural 1:7 106:17
naturally 11:14
nature 22:16 27:3
ncasi 84:14,19,20,24
85:6 86:6,17
ne 129:20
near 82:18
nearby 107:19
nearly 71:2
necessarily 27:20
47:6
necessary 44:24
130:9
need 10:17 13:4
20:21 47:10 55:2
94:2 102:11 123:25
needed 32:23
needs 63:24 72:15
118:14
neil 1:14 2:4 6:25
7:1 8:7,9,16 123:23
129:2
neither 37:23
never 39:20 44:1
49:10 57:16 60:10
97:17,19,20 115:8
117:5 121:10
new 11:25 15:13
16:11 63:9 80:11,13
80:25 81:5,15 94:23
nice 78:16 115:5
normal 13:22 65:1
67:2 72:14,14
normally 33:22
north 26:16 67:5,11
67:14 69:14 80:11
81:1,8,10,19,20
89:7
northern 2:9 68:2
68:24
notaries 128:5,9
notarized 128:9
129:9
notary 131:24
note 6:2 70:21,25
noted 29:10 130:4,5
notes 111:16,19
113:13 116:24
notice 59:13 98:6
noticed 115:24
noticing 125:19
noting 129:7
nova 2:9 68:25
ntu 53:12
number 6:23 9:10
10:11 11:8 32:14
34:20,24 37:10
44:16,19 50:4 56:24
58:7 59:23 70:15
82:19 104:11,24
114:23 117:21
119:18
numbers 26:13 67:7
67:17 72:12 118:4
numeric 121:16
nw 1:17 3:7,14,22
o
o.c.g.a. 125:7,8,20
o2 70:19 72:17,22
72:25 73:5,15 74:3
74:7,10,22 75:24
76:3,8,14,17 77:4
80:12 82:3
object 22:13,17
27:13 48:23,25 92:2
116:2
objected 22:19
objecting 26:21
116:4
objection 18:3 23:1
23:5,16 28:8,16
119:24 121:2 122:2
objectionable 90:18
90:22,24,25 91:1,5
92:1,3
objections 9:20,22
10:2,7,10,11,14,22
14:19 18:23 20:3,13
20:16 22:2,5 24:17
24:18,21 26:18,20
28:7 29:9,13 121:25
objective 118:7,8
obligation 125:13
127:9
observable 50:22
87:4
observations 40:5
63:17 120:13
observe 88:7 93:14
observed 40:18
obsolete 66:13 67:9
obtained 119:13
obvious 28:22 42:22
44:4 50:25 54:6
103:16 108:23
obviously 24:1
25:11 29:11 45:16
67:2 90:11 114:11
115:14
occasion 90:10
105:20
occasions 40:21
occurring 57:11
ocean 78:15,16,23
ocga 128:12 130:7
october 92:11 93:21
od 81:1,9,16
odd 117:11
odor 20:15,24 22:10
96:22,24 97:7,21
99:12 110:9,10,14
office 1:1 4:6 6:21
officer 127:13
offices 129:3,10
oh 41:4 60:14 87:5
97:12 106:11 117:2
okay 7:5 9:7,11 10:5
10:10 13:12 14:17
14:20 18:7 20:2,10
27:16,22 28:24
33:24 35:16 36:7,16
37:21 39:2,4,18
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[okay - photo]
40:5,16 42:16 46:15
49:1 50:11 54:20
56:3 57:17 58:22
59:19 61:2 62:5
69:3,6,17 70:17,22
71:8 72:13,16,22
73:4 76:13,16 77:9
78:2,9 79:5 80:10
81:18 82:3 83:4,20
84:6 85:2,14,17,22
85:24 86:13 89:8,19
89:22 90:7,13 95:24
97:10,19 99:5,19
101:25 104:5,19,23
105:1,5 107:1
108:19 111:10,12
111:13,23 112:1,4,8
113:6,8,14,16,18
114:6,10,17,20
115:18,22 116:8
117:3,5,12,15 121:6
123:3,7
old 99:2
once 16:1 40:25
76:19 129:9
ones 10:15 21:16,24
27:23 31:13 81:9,15
114:19
online 34:24 35:4,7
ontario 16:21 21:2
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phone 12:17 113:23
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phones 6:4
photo 48:20 51:19
51:22
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[photograph - prove]
photograph 49:14
49:15,23 50:2,14,22
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photographs 2:11
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prove 18:2
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[provide - record]
provide 35:22 47:22
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provided 121:17
public 25:3,9 26:12
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qualifications 10:23
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record 6:2,8 8:15,21
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94:1 110:21,24
111:24,25 122:6
123:4,9,22 125:11
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800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[recording - right]
recording 6:6
recovery 64:20 65:2
reduce 55:15,23
59:6,8,10 81:23
122:12
reduced 56:23 127:5
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relation 21:14 61:6
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104:2,7,16 106:19
110:13 111:4
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124:5 129:6
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[riocell - simple]
riocell 83:10
risks 16:19,19
river 10:14 11:16,23
12:2 13:16,18 14:4
14:7 16:3,14,14
19:22,22 21:5,13,14
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riverbank 39:16
riverine 30:5,9,12
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riverkeeper 1:3
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95:12
riverkeeper's
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riverkeepers 95:9
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rivers 12:3 30:8,22
38:20,25
role 35:22 36:7
room 6:14 7:2
rough 15:7
roughly 12:9 56:22
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routine 47:19
March 29, 2016
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s
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saiccor 74:6,18,19
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see 15:10,18 16:5,23
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set 19:16 92:10
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129:9,11,14
significant 60:6
62:25 66:7 104:14
simple 28:22 45:8
53:23
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[simply - subjects]
simply 21:15 46:17
92:12
single 26:16
sir 113:22
sit 62:9
site 40:8,9,24 61:15
62:9,22
sitting 36:23 98:4
101:25
situation 25:20 26:3
six 15:4
size 21:6 52:13
62:18
skepticism 73:21
skills 61:22
skookumchuck
21:11 103:7
slow 16:3
slowly 29:3
sludge 64:11,14,16
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small 21:14 41:7
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smaller 59:24 84:1
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solid 53:5
solids 53:6,8,18,20
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solution 118:17,18
solutions 6:10 8:1
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solved 103:18
solving 103:18
somebody 32:20
55:7
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subcontractor
125:10,15 127:11
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subjects 24:25
800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[submitted - thank]
submitted 5:23 9:6
35:11 125:24 126:1
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subscribed 131:21
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800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[thanks - use]
thanks 13:6 94:4
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theories 17:23
thing 78:14 84:22
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things 13:18 16:25
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800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[use - yeah]
121:18,21 130:9
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veritext.com.
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xerox 71:20
y
y'all 55:10
yeah 8:24 9:12
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800.808.4958
770.343.9696
Neil McCubbin
[yeah - zoomed]
March 29, 2016
Page 23
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yellow 87:1
young 26:6,7
youtube 119:19,20
z
zoomed 92:12
800.808.4958
770.343.9696

Neil McCubbin Altamaha Riverkeeper vs. GA EDP

Transcription

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