Finnish American Historical Archive and Museum

Finnish
American
Historical
Archive
and Museum
FINNISH FOLKLORE AND SOCIAL CHANGE IN THE GREAT
LAKES MINING REGION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT 1972-1978
(Funded in part by the National Endowment For The Humanities)
F.F.S.C.G.L.M.R. DIGITIZATION PROJECT 2010-2011
(Funded in part by the Keweenaw National Historic Park Advisory
Commission / U.S. Department of the Interior, National Park Service)
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“Maki, John”, Finnish Folklore and Social Change in the Great Lakes Mining Region Oral
History Collection, Finlandia University, Finnish American Historical Archive and Museum.
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Trezise,
August
Troopers
Norman
8,
1974
TOF:IC
,..
PAGE
.-
Born in Michigamme in 1888
Moved to Copper Country in 1905
Working for C&H for $1.05 a day
Son's job for State Department
in
after previous Justice
Talks about job briefly
Appointed
Experience
Experience
1913 during
Memories
of
Strike
policemen
in
suicide1414-5
69
~
1475
1475-6
1475-8
from
COMMENT
Cut
Houses
1941
as Magistrate
the
old
Calumet
as a Judge
Payed by' Fees p~r case
Old
Dockets
Calumet
Townarelst~i;f
Ha~l
1485-8
Curley
Sally
Matches
1488
1488-9
1490-1
Italian
Hall Tragedy
The Credit
Bureau
The Welfare Board
He worked for C&H dur1ng"the
"Funny inc1dents"...in
court
1491-2
1492-3
1494-5
1495-6
1496-8
Depression
or ...
Flu Epidemic in the 30's in the 30's
Diptherla
and Child Labor
The "City of Bangor" and Chrysler
Cars
Train Robbery
Slot Machines
Sheriffs
and "under the table' stuff"
.
in
1478
1478-9,
1484-5
Memories of locations
and owners of bars1419-81
Experience
as a Fireman
1481-2
Keeping the Streeets
open in Winter
1482-3
Calumet Jail
1484
Some outstanding
personalities
encountered
Location
of Court
Boxing and Wrestling
Wadell Men
Helgren
1~12-3
1~73
1~13
1~13 1502
1413-4
attempted
as corner - retired
as Corner
a~
1~12
1~1~
1~12
Washington
1905-60 Taverns in Calumet
Secretary of Chamber of Commerce for
25 years
Sporting
Houses
Worked for C&H from 1905-1939
Became Justice
of the Peace in
Harju
1498-50
1500 1
~1501
~1501
1501-2
ErkOla-s
1d
Klkkonen
;~;r~~~~breaker1" from
Garnished
wages 1of Miners
bought a house t or $25
Suicides,
autop ies,
casket salesman
Winter
shippinglaocident
EV'n'1472
SUBJECT:
SOURCE: Norman Trezise
COMMENTS:
Harju
Interviewers:
and Helgren
I:
Interviewing
Mr. Norman Trezise
at his home in Calumet on Tenth Street
and I'm Trooper Helgren and Trooper Harju is also here.
We're d~ing
this
interview
for Suomi aollege
Or~ History
Program.
Mr. IJreza.se
will
you tell
us a little
bit about where you were born and a li~tle
bit about your background.
:
R:
we
got born
married,
my wife and I.
come up
here in 19u5
and I
I was
in Ishpeming
thenand
weI lived
in Michigamme
~ that's
started to work for the C &: H Mining Company for $1.05 a day.
what yo~ could do with all your money...seven days a week.
I:
What year
were you born
f here
I agine
in?
R:
I:
R:
I~
eighty-six
and my wife is eighty-six
and we just celebrated
r
sixty-fifth
wedding anniversary
here the end of last month.
My
y,
he was here...well,
they were all here, but my boy he worked fo
he
government for how many years.
He just retired
from the gove
t
and now he works tor the (?) Institute.
He's allover
the worl .
But when he told me he was gonna retire,
I said,
"Retire?"
He aid,
"Yeah!"
So I said, "How much pension you gonna get?"
He said,
"Twenty thousand"and
he said"I'm
gonna make more than that whe
I'm
gonna go now."
I:
What does he do now?
R:
He was in
I:
In
R:
No,
I:
Didn't
R:
In Japan, see he was an ambassador or not the ambassador, he wa$ the
next to the ambassador in Japan and France, both places.
And h~ was
supposed to get the job as ambassador to Japan and Hixon didn't:give
it to him.
That's
why he didn't
like
Nixon.
:.
I
the
work
of
the
Secretary
of
State's
Office.
Lansing?
Washington.
he...I
knew he was some ambassador
Wasn't he an ambassador for
some country
or something
at one time?
at one ttme.
I
EVT 1473
I:
That's
R:
He's
all
Nixon is paying now, isn't
right.
paying
but
now;
I mean, he never
told
he
us but
we know that
w,s the
reason.
I
I
go back to when you moved then
I:
Yeah,
R:
I came up here in 1905 that's
in
town
here.
Did
they
tell
go ahead and tell
the time when you had your sixty
you
t$verns
that?
us everything
i
!
you can remember.
I:
Just
R:
Because when I was in my office,
you know, the tourists
come up ~here
...1 was Secretary
of the Chamber of Commerce too for twenty-fiv
years and I got this watch from them.
So, I used to show these
eople
the directory
of all the taverns.
They wouldn't
believe
it.
lid,
"Before
(?), sure."
I mean, everyother
place was a saloon,
they didn't
have taverns
them days.
Then we had a brewery out here, Canada
Brewery, there were four sporting
houses out there.
I:
Cat houses?
R:
there was
couple
of murders
out one
there...some
Yeah,
four a cat
houses.
They was
after
the
I.
fellows
other,
got and
shot i ut
entuallV
sure
there,
so finally
they hadda close 'em up.
But it went on for
ars
and years.
Used to go out there with horse and buggy and I used to
guys would
tired
of and
waiting
and tothesa.horses
they came
back to~ the
the
work
at No.5get Tamarack
we used
the horses
and bUggie
barn and they'd
get left
out there.
Oh, that
the horses,
you know, they knew where to go.
know.
old
Oh, there
I worked
I:
Where did you work?
R:
The motive
I:
What did
Jr.
for
work6d
C & H from
for
of funny things
the
1905 until
mining
happened abo~
!
in
company?
1939.
power.
And when you left
the
under-
al
,
and
Centenn
pumps
was
on
and
worked
I
house
were.
place
they
boiler
Last
pumps
underground.
engine
worked
in
the
there...electric
pumps
I
you do there?
was
on
Mine
I:
you say...you
I
R:
Dh,
What'd
ground.
I:
R:
was a lot
days.
and
old
house
I don't
the
was comical.
Of curse,
How the guys came, ack,
company, what did you do then?
I got layed off.
They layed off a lot of us, see got a...the
mining
company...that's
one thing I gotta give them credit,
we got pai~ so
much a year for every year we worked.
Different
than what it i$ now
and I got around eighteen
hundred or two thousand dollars,
kind!of
a
bonus see.
There was only a few of us got that...that
we worke4 tor
what they call a conglomerate,
see.
And then what-a-you-callum...I
EVT 1474
was o££ £or oh maybe six or seven months, and I had yet because I
had (???) Justice
o£ the Peace.
He wanted to retire
and he want~d
me to buy him out.
Well, I never made any talk about this,
so anyhow one morning I was here raking up my yard like
I'm cutting
the
grass now and his daughter
come over and sai8, "You still
interested
in taking
over the place?"
I said ! "Yeah, but your Dad will
never
die,"
just
like
joking,
see.
suicide
last
night,"
she said,
WWel,"
she said,
"so,
the doctor
"He tried
to
said we gotta
co~it
wat~h
him £rom now on."
So I said,
"I'll
come over this afternoon
and we'll
discuss this thing."
Well, that day the mining company come back and
wanted me to come back to work.
So, I worked two nights...we
haada
go to nights
a couple places...and
then I went to see the merchants
to stay in the credit
room and I took over the credit
bureau, of:
course,
I was Justice
o£ the Peace, see, and I wasn't active
unt~l
then.
I
I:
What year
R:
1941
I:
That's
R:
I was Justice
before that...I
was elected
oh I don't know, about! '36
or '34, see, but I wasn't active,
see, I was still
working for tpe
company.
At that time there was four Justices,
see, and two of ~hem
would be active
and the other two would be just what-a-you-callua...
sleeping
Justice,
they'd
say.
Dan McDonald, he was Chief of pollce,
you know Dan, don't you?
I:
Noy,.I
don't.
R:
Fellow
that
I:
He works
R:
When Dan was Chief
I:
Is
R:
Dh yes.
thought
I:
What kind of a job was Justice
R:
What kind
I:
Yeah, when you first
R:
Well, we all worked on the fee system.
they get now.
All we got was...
I:
So
R!
was that?
when you became Justice
works
for
Dan still
£or Paulsen's
Garage,
Ford Garage.
them now?
working
of Police...John
tor
Dan, he'd give
you knew Dan.
of
of the Peace?
the
Sullivan
took
his
place
after.
Ford Garage?
you some dope too.
Dan's
really
good...~
of the Peace?
a job was it?
much on a fine,
started,
what did
you do?
We didn't
get no salary
~ike
eh?
So muchon a case, yeah. I forget what it was...$3.70 I guess...
$3.70 something like that and then we got ii.30
and then they
objections
to that...somebody
down state...and
hadda take off
30 cents and only got $4.00 and that money was put in escrow
made
that
dowp...
EVT 1475
I been into Houghton...I
was in there day before yesterday.
I s~ould
have asked Ray about that then.
That money was put in escrow until
they had a hearing,
so they had a hearing
some place and they
decided that we~re entitled
to it.
So, in the end we're getting
$4.30 for any of your cases and the village
cases go about $3.00
I guess.
!
II
I:
Well,
what
the District
R!
Yeah,
all
did you
Judge
misdemeanor
have
to
cases,
yeah.
and sue for
do all
Did
R:
Yeah, there was lots
marry people.
of paper
I:
How many people
you married?
R:
Oh,
I:
Several
have
several
hundred
the
Of course,
cases or trials
we did
judgements and stuff
I:
I married
Did you hear
do as Justice?
does now?
Lots of garnishees
you
I
paper
work
work with
for
the
like
civil
that.
~ike
~uff.
I
that.
it,
Do you
yeah.
And then used! to
know?
hundred
over
the
years.
R:
I:
Any of them come back for
R:
Well, when we had our party down at thegolf
course, my kids were all
here, this woman come up to me and said, "You don't
remember me, do
you."
I says, "No,ftI don't."
She said, "You married us thirty
years
ago."
And what-a-you-callum...well
the Justice
of the Peace and then
I was coroner too, you know.
I was the crounty Coroner for year~.
See, there was this fellow
called
(?) Osborn, he was the Judge and
he
was
the
Coroner
and
he
quit,
and
he wanted
to take
so [they
appointed me then.
And I've kept that
up until methe
end. it,
'
I:
When did
R:
About
five
years
I:
About
five
years
R:
Yeah, five
I:
1969
R:
Yeah...1969,
yeah.
I:
What
do as coroner?
R:
Anybody
I:
So you'd
did
you
a divorce...tell
you to undo what you ~id?
retire?
ago?
years ago
you
who died
them days without
go to the
house?
a doctor
you hadda have a co~oner.
EVT 1476
R:
Go to the
I:
You had to
R:
what
think aboutyeah;
it.
Had tohe'd
investigate,
I'd
then
give
put
house,
go out
drownings and all
in the
kinds
investigate
me a medical
bush...sure,
oh heck...on
suicider'
of stuff.
at the
term to
!
scene.
tell
case, I'dyou ask
know,
e'd
if I him
didn'tthe know,
the and
dOCt Or
down.
Oh, I knew this
County
pret
good.
y
I
I:
Well,
did
you have to
R:
Death
Certificates,
I:
You filled
R:
Well, yeah...you
couldn't
put...you
hadda put down something like
a medical term, so you couldn't
put down just heart attack,
you know,
you'd have to put down coronary occlusion
or some such words as that.
The funniest
case that I can remember...not
funny but sad too...Clyde
...you
know Barryman on the Hancock police?
I:
Yeah
R:
Crusher..
.you know Crusher? His brother
I:
Dh yeah,
I
R:
Him and I went down to Houghton and this
those
fill
out the
Death Certificate
then?
yeah.
out
yourself
know who you
then.
is the Milwaukee Journa~ man?
mean.
woman she shot herself
in
the clothes
closet,
see.
So, the gun was right
there and everything,
see and I looked up and I see this
guy washing the walls.
I said,
"What in the hell are you doing up there?"
"Dh," he said, "I wanted
to wash this
blood off
before
my kids
come home.ff
I said,
"God
darn it
come down from there."
I said, "When the undertaker
comes
he'll
clean up this mess," I said,
So, I got him down anyway...ask
Harryman. . .well we went downstairs
and about ten or fi£teen
minutes
we come upstairs
and there he was up there again washing his wife's
blood and all that of£, see.
Well the neighbors
figured
that h~
shot his wife and we got the State Police
in on it and they inv~stigated; but she was a mental case.
He committed suicide
himsel£ ,later
on down in Escanaba; but that was humorous and yet, you know, h~ was
up there washing...that'd
take a lot of guts to clean up that m~ss.
I:
When you were in the Justice
Court there,
magistrate
System what did you do7 Did you listen
to testimony
and then decide whether to whether they were guilty
R:
If they'd
plead not
of them would plead
awhile.
guilty
guilty;
then we'd have a trial,
you know.
Most
but of course you had a case once in
I:
How long
trials
last?
R!
Well,
I:
Yeah
would
your
some jury...you
know Wist1 don't
you?
in the Court
on both sides
or not guilty?
EVT 14.771
R!
When he got in the picture
we'd have jury
...we had a case in Laurium...I
it was Red up there...
I:
Rielly
R:
Yeah, well anyway, it
in the trial...we
had
you're
gonna lose this
case in Justice
Court."
one." "What makes you
tell
a'lie
I know of,
to have a smoke, they
Laurium !own Hall,
so
Wisti?tt
And he said,
suing the golf course."
I:
So
R:
They lost,
lost
Court
all
it
trials
last
all
day.
was drunk driving
Wisti
case...
was thete case.
So, Wisti was...during
a lull
a jury,
I sent for him and I said,
"Andy,
case."
"Oh no'f" he said, "I never lose a
And I said,
WWell, you're
gonna lost th!s
think
so?"
I said, "I just know it.tt
I didn't
but there was one of the jurors...I
went out
were out in the hall there...that
was over in
I said to this £ellow,called
Ceil,
ttTou know
"I know the son-of-a-bitch,"
he said, "he's
He said, "I'm one of the directors."
you knew he was goDna lose
sure they
and he lost it
think
that
one.
Did
and he took that
the
he lose?
case right
to the Supreme
way through.
I:
It
was a drunk driver,
R:
Drunk driver,
sure.
The boys had a clear cut case...oh,
was stubborn,
you know, so that's
one case that he lost.
a pretty
shrewed lawyer,
though.
You met him?
I:
Dh yes.
R:
You had dealing
I:
Un
R':
Nice
I:
What were the majority
R:
Most of them were'tJDotor violations
and of course,
drunk and disqrderly
and murder cases and all that,
we just had the preliminary
exam~nations
and then they bound them over to Circui t Court and we didn' t ha~e too
many murder cases...we
had a few...and
breaking
and enterings,
things
like that;
but all you'd do was arraign
them and take their
ple~ or
set an examination if they wanted an examination...
very few wanted
examinations
them days though.
I:
Went right
R:
Like now, they want a lawyer right
now they want the court to appoint
appoint
a lawyer them days.
I:
How many cases do you think
in the courts?
R:
Gee,
fellow
I don't
with
that Wisti
But he's
him?
but...
straight
know.
of
to
I've
cases before...when
you first
started?
court.
away.
a lawyer
you handled
got a filing
Then when they get ar~ested
all
cabinet
for
them which
them years
back there
we couldn't
that
full.
you were
EVT 1476
I:
All
the
cases you've
still
got
listed?
R:
Well I kept them...you're
supposed to keep them
say, I don't know if you are or not.
Nobody'll
all my dockets...I've
got a lot of dockets down
...put
'em way up on the shelf...nobody'll
ever
fifty
years from now.
I:
Well, that's
the idea of this
class here
project
to get into some of these things
somebody throws it away because that's
a
this area.
Can you remember what Calumet
strike
was here and they say there was a
R:
Yeah, because I worked for
the mining
for six years they
every want them and
in Calumet Town Hall
look at 'em.
Maybe
and this local
history
and get it documented before
valuable
part of history
in
was like
in 1913 when the
policeman on every corner?
company that
time.
Oh yeah!
And I belonged to the fire
department
too and there was a fireman's
tournament
here and I was in Michigamme, so there was a bunch of
Michigamme boys here...that
was in the morning before things
got
hot, see; so I was gonna take them up and show them the mining property up (?) we were posted on the big buildings
there.
So we got
up there...here
was all these strikers,
see.
And 'bang',
someone
pulled
out a gun and 'bang',
they were shooting
up in the air,
see.
These guys said,
"Let's
get the hell out of" here.
What's going on?"
They got scared and they all went home...the
firemen...they
didn't
have any parade or nothing
because they were scared.
I was sca~ed.
But Calumet was a good town at that time.
Jack Foster can tell
~ou
how he was going down Fifth
Street
Sunday night,
Saturday night .r..
did he ever tell
you that?
there
!
I:
Well, he said
direction.
were so many people
R:
Oh boy, he used to have church services
Sunday night...the
different
churches...Protestant
churches for that matter...and
after
churCh
everybody come down Fifth
Street
and that's
my wife and you try and
push a buggy through all those people.
It was terrible.
There used
to be crowds...I've
never seen anything
like
it.
I:
Do you remember any of the
old
policemen
they
from
were walking
Calumet
like
in one
Paul
Speehar?
R:
Yea, I remember Paul Speehar, yes.
He worked for Dan McDonald.
We
were talking
about him yesterday
or day before.
There was Paul
Speehar and Jim Ormsby...Jim
used to run the tavern then he wen~
night police.
He was marshall
for a little
while and a fellow
called
Surrenger,
he'd dead too now.
But Speehar was quite a cop.
I:
Was he?
R.
He'd hit you over the head first,
then he'd ask questions.
Yeah,
he'd hit the guy over the head.
A fellow
called
Henry Fondleso~,
was a night policeman too.
He had...
I:
What did
they
have...policemen
that
came in at night~
he
EVT 1479
R:
They just
had two men that
I:
Well,
R:
They worked every night
in the week...Sunday
and all...seven
days a
week them days.
I don't know who...I
suppose they had a knock out
man someplace.
Then a man called
Bellilou,
he was on, he was one of
the later
ones there;
but McDonald was Chief for quite a few years
then.
I:
What years was he Chief?
R:
Dan...ob,
he was Cbief there when I took over (?) o~~ice in 1940..
I would say '39 - '38, something like that to '41 or '42...then
he
took this
job selling
cars and then Big John Sullivan
took his job
I:
I understand
time.
R:
Lots
I:
Were they
R:
Like I said,
and sideways.
I:
Un hum
R:
Right across the street
used to be the Salvation
Army, well there was
a tavern there called
Decker...I
lived
upstairs...I
boarded upstairs.
That was...two
Jews run that and up a little
ways was a man called
Sauer...Old
Man Peter Sauer, he was a millionaire
and he was a
what-a-you-callum.
He owned more stock in the mining company here, I
guess, than anybody and he was a regular
miser.
He used to have a...
go to meet the train.
When the train
would come in he'd have a horse
and buggy.. .or cutter
or whatever it is to bring them to the hotel and
this
story was that he'd pick you up off the train
and your baggage
and that...he'd
drive you way around Red Jacket shaft and that over
to the Parlington
Hotel.
That's
just a block over from the train.
And that's
a fact.
And they say that waen the fellows
would go in
there and have a glass of beer, they'd
leave about that much...he'd
drink it himselt...wouldn't
throw it away.
He left
a fortunes...oh
boy, and what good did it do him.
I:
Can you remember anyother
R:
Well, Billy
Jones...he
was Cousin Jack...he
to have the English
people in there.
what kind
by night,
yeah.
of a beat...?
there
were
Do you know?
a lot
of
taTerns
and
bars
in
Calumet
at
that
ot bars.
on every
Where was that
R:
worked
street?
there was eighty
taverns
You know where Kilpela's
bars that
on tour streets..
(?) Store is?
.up and down
were outstanding?
was a wrestler,
he used
at?
that was the one right across from (?) Bakery. Did you know
there was a bar right across...it's
closed now. I don't know, I
see some fellows there now. There was a bar there and there was a
Well,
bar down where there's
the bowling
alley...there
was a bar in there.
EVT 14go1
Let's
see, where else was there
a bar?
Down where Master's
got,: there
was a bar there,
and where Mercury's
there,
that
was a bar and on the
other
side of the street...yes,
next ti'
Keith
Badino's
there,
t~ere
was a bar in there
called
Billy
Wills
had a place
in there
and t~is...
down here in this
first
house right
here after
you leave
the (?) i,
that
used to be a bar there.
:
Are there any in operation
the real old ones?
R:
No, there
had their
was three
Tambolini
own tavern...they're
I:
How about
Louigi's?
R:
Luoigi,
I:
Did he?
R:
Yeah, he's only been here a few years.
He's dead now, but he was
only here
a few years.
That was a Tambolini...Old
Man Tambolini
built
that.
Used to sell these big five cent glasses,
you know...
five
cents.
I:
Five
R:
Yeah, big like that...sure.
And he had first
started
a business down
by the depot there,
on the other side the depot there...the
place is
down now...and
used to have all those railroad
men in there,
see.
Used to be a bar ~ight up here next to the...where
the monuments are.
Schlitz
had a place there...big
tavern there.
They got burned down
and the fellows
would all come from Red Jacket shaft when going to
work and coming home. They did a teriffic
business
in there.
I:
Where did
R:
Yeah, there was Busch Brewery and then there
I:
What kind of beer
own beer...what'd
R!
Calumet had their
own brewery out...you've
been out
Water Works, you've seen the old homes out there?
I:
The old
R:
And see there was a couple of Jews bought that just before it went
wet; and they had a fire
out there.
Whether they burned it down or
not to get the insurance,
nobody'll
ever know...but
it was a month
to six weeks afterwards
they could ha~e made beer, see.
And then
I:
no,
cents
now that
were in operation
Any of
I:
they
brothers,
all
dead.
used
to
then?
run...they
each
he came in later.
a glass
they
get
all
their
did they
they call
beer
from...the
get out
it?
of
the
local
breweries?
was the Calumet Brewery.
Calumet
Brewery?
Calumet's
to West Tamarack
homes are left.
there
there.
was this...down
They
didn't
loads
and Pabst
by
make
the
beer
depot
here,
had a warehouse
Do you remember Buttalo's...Bu££alo's
there...Schlitz
but
they
had
brought
it
a warehouse
in
by car-
down there.
out
by Big Traverse
Bay Road?
EVT 1481
Right at the corner where Big Traverse Road runs into Gay Lake Linden
Road? Wasn't there a place there right
at the corner?
They used to
run women out of there and all kinds ot...a
kind of a speak-easy
place.
Log Cabin type thing.
Dance hall they had there too.
I:
You were talking
about how many taverns
there was, that little
store
by the depot over there,
well there was a bar in there and then the
Parlington
Hotel had a bar and the next place was another bar there
where some people got a home in there now.
And then there was
Bianci's,
next to
that's
where
there...High-Steps
Barents
is now,
they called
where the light
company is
was someother Italian
right
then there
was another
place
it,
and then Shank was up
now, Shanks had a bar in there and there
next to it there in the Frame Building.
I:
How about
R:
Well Schuttes,
I guess yeah, Schuttes/Pitchettno's,
they're
the
oldest,
yeah.
Schuttes faultered
at it first
and Phitchettnos
followed
after.
That's
ri~t,
them two.
Yeah, that's
about the
two from the old families.
(You said you were a fireman.)
Schuttes
and Pitchetino's?
and
I:
You said
you have
you were
a truck?
R:
Is that
I:
Yeah, that's
R:
Dh well,
we don't
care.
Yeah, the Tamarack...all
companies,
they all
had their
own fire
department,
the
fire
the
get nothing
a fireman.
back then,
did
whistle?
£ire
whistle
much...all
the fireman's
from here.
When you were a fireman
only
we'd
tournament
I:
What kind o~ a ~iretruck
R:
Damned if
now.
get was a couple
when
it
was local..
these
see.
of
dollars
.not
when
little
mining
We didn't
to
it
go to
was away
did you have?
I rememberwhat Tamarack had.
We had some kind of a pumper
out there.
Yeah, we had a pumper there,
yeah, and a hose cart and
then we had some pretty
big fires
too.
When the Arlington
burned
down, not the Arlington
buU the Bobbin Block, that's
where that
parking
lot is right
across from the Croation
Church there now.
That was a big big fire
and then the Goss Block, that's
where the
water company's got their
office
now. There was a big three storyfour story department
store there and there again,
some Jews had
one department
there with furniture...with
paint and all that...just
burned down.
I:
Did you get a lot of those buildings
did most of them burn down?
R:
They burned down.. .oh that
See all that pa~t
and all
I:
It's
kind
of hard
to
stop
stopped...the
fire
stopped?
was a terrible
fire
in the Goss Block.
that stuff
was in there,
see.
that.
isn't
it?
Or
EVT 1482
R:
Yeah
I:
It's
R:
And there was two Jews was running
it,
so had it all up first.
I
don't know if anybody was ever arrested
for arson or not them days
because I wasn't Justice
of the Peace then.
But, oh that was an
awful big fire.
I:
Anyone hurt
R~
What?
I:
Anyone get hurt
R!
Not that fire,
no, but thenwhen the Bowman Block burned down and
Charlie
Ryan, he lost his leg.
He died afterwards
and one of tme
other firemen
got killed...Rikilo,
he died.
He got buried up, you
know, when the walls crumbled in.
They come over here and got me,
my wife was away, because I was coroner then, see, and oh it was a
bitter
bitter
cold night and we went to the hospital
first
and lots
of the firemen was over there...they
didn't
know if they were gonna
(?) it,
but they got over it.
But this Mikilo
and Charlie
Ryan
pertnear
impossible
even
or killed
it...aurned
in
in it
I:
Is
R:
Yeah,
I:
Father of the Ryans that
R:
Yeah,
I:
Whenwas that...what
R:
Hmm...I
I:
I know who he is.
R:
the
with
in
it,
the
modern
or just
equipment.
property?
or burned in it?
they had to amputate his leg;
this
nowadays
Ryan trom the
but he died from it
Ryan's
Funeral
later
on.
Home?
he was the father
the
Charlie
father,
don't
owns Ryan's Funeral
Ryan, yeah.
year was that tire
know...my
Home.
wife
in?
Can you
remember?
was away...I
forties
sometime anyway.. .but that
this
(?). he runs the Unemployment
don't
know. that's
in the
was an awful big fire.
They had
Office.
you know who he is?
Yeah well him and this Koskila.
they had some kind of a business
and f don't know if they were...lot
of painting
I guess...they
were
doing some kind of automobile
dealings
or something,
I forget
what
it was.
But the fire
started
there and gee. that was a big fourstory stone building...and
oh, they had this
(1) they called
it,
tore down all the property
around here...this
salvage man...he
hadda
be there to knock down the walls because it was dangerous,
Jesus,
so it was what-a-you-callum.
I:
How did
they
plow
R:
At that
time?
I:
Thev didn't
the
With
plow,
streets
in
Calumet?
it.
Just
a roller
they
rolled
rolled
up and down.
EVT 148j
R:
They had bill
roll...big
did you see that
rollers.
I:
This summer, you mean?
R:
Yeah, it's
in Laurium now.
I:
Yeah,
that
was used to
R:
Yeah
Fifth
well
it was on that
Street
they used to
but big sleighs,
I:
Hand shoveled.
R:
Yeah,
teams
There
one out here in the field
roll
here
in th,
i
order...that's
shovel
the
what they used,
yeah.
iOn
snow in trucks.
But not t~ucks,
see.
pictures,
father
a lot
of
used to
pictures.
drive
one ot those
You haven't
eh?
I:
Well,
R:
Where they'd
shovel the snow in these...there
There was no cars them days.
I:
And then
down.
R:
Yeah, like here...l
know when the brewery was going out there,
they
wanted to get the road plowed out there,
so the brewery would o~der
a load o£ barley or malt or some darn thing,
you know, and then:the
£ellow that had the contract
to haul it,
he hadda plow the road:out
there.
So they'd
get their
road open to haul their
gear up thete.
I:
so they made sure they ordered
they got their
road plowed.
R!
Yeah
T!
Why did
R:
Well, at that time Calumet was booming.
See all of these here people,
foreigners
we call
them, Austrians
and Italians
and so forth,
t~eY'd
bring beer...they'd
have horses hauling
up...theY'd
bring up a whole
wagon load of beer and they'd
come to your house and you had a ~unch
of orders.
Each boarder had his own case of beer, see.
Dollara
case I guess it was them days, see.
And they'd
bring in maybe ~hirtyforty
cases of beer to these boarding
houses, each one would hate his
own beer, you see.
And then this
Calumet Brewery, they control~ed
a
lot of these taverns,
you know, they had to buy their
beer...
Calumet beer, see.
I:
Is
R:
Yeah, and same as Basch...the
Michigan House...B
Gsch used to own...
be down at the Michigan House.
And Bosch had all kinds o£ taverns.
that
I've
(1)1
...(?)
shoveled...and
John Sullivan's
and they'd
haul it...there's
seen any of those
was one out
seen some, but now that
when those
they
build
what they
See, Besch started
rollers
the
called
many.
came through,
brewery
it
their
malt
out there,
then,
Calumet
was no what-a-you-callum.
they
in
just
the
packed the
wintertime
snow
and then
do you know?
Beer?
in Lake Linden and his beer,
see.
EVT 14gif
I:
You know where the
R:
Where the
I:
Right
R:
Yeah
I:
How long
R:
Ever
since
I:
It's
been there
R:
Yes,
as far
I:
And the
R:
As far
now in
Calumet?
is?
has that
I've
Hall.
jail
been there?
been here.
as long
as you can remember?
as I can remember,
element
that
came in
yes.
has always
used the
as I know, yes. They made 'em clean
in
new toilets
But basically
End of
is
now, in the City
and put
I~
jail
jail
it's
it
same jail
then+
up a few times
th,re
and that.
the
same
Side 1
R:
Day before yesterday
when I was down there,
what I understood
that he was thinking
that
school,
but he has to go to school.
I:
Yeah, they're
R:
Yeah, they got to go to school.
He thought that because he was in
the Air Force he didn't
have to...military
police,
but that don't
count.
I:
What kind of training
R:
I don't
I:
Well,
R:
How many weeks?
I:
I think
R:
Thirteen
I:
Well,
right
R:
That's
I:
Do you ever remember of
shot anyone?
R:
Yeah. and that's
gonna send him to
know...what
now they
it's
weeks,
do down there?
have new schools
they
go thirteen
weeks...
now.
ohl
what did they
off the street
right,
now.
did policemen have years ago?
do they
thirteen
school
the boys was telling
me
he didn't
have to g~ to
yeah,
have years ago? Did they just hire
and say, "You're
a policeman now."
Yeah, oh sure,
sure.
an instance
where they
had a lot
that's
somebody
what I say.
where a policeman
of arguements
might
because
have
these
EVT 14g5
o£ticers
that's
where they wanted to get a £ee all the time for
everything.
They'wanted
to get...they'd
get three dollars
or two
dollars,
I £orget what it was now, and that's
all theywere thinking
about.
The rest of these guys and there were some of these guys
that were police
o£ficers...was
all they could get on the side,see.
So, I got kind of mad and John SUllivan
didn't
like
it at the time.
And I said to the Council,
I told the Council,
"I hope you pay
those guys more money," I said, "and don't have to give them any
£ees."
Which they thought was a good idea.
So they give them a
raise in pay and some o£ these officers,
oh they were mad. They
still
wanted to get their two or three extra dollars
every, you
know.
It ended up though, that they didn't
get it anymore.
But I
couldn't
see why a guy get a little
dollar
ticket
and then he had
to pay three or four dollars
to an officer
£or giving
him a ticket.
So the more tickets
R:
Yeah, tickets...they
were paying more for costs than they
what-a-you-callum.
I was losing
on it,
but I had a little
a conscience
anyway.
Some of those police
officers,
they
hungry for that dollar.
I:
Do you remember any instances
where a police
hurt someone bad or anything...or
shot?
R:.
No
I:
Or the other way...can
you remember any police
of~icer
getting
bad or getting
shot or anything
like this on a scirmish?
R:
No, I can't.
I:
Did you ever get threatened
were giving
out fines or...?
R:
he wrote,
the more money he made.
I:
The officers
never
being
had any trouble
that
might
have
hurt
up there.
you were a Judge when you
Db yes, there was one guy not in the office,
Sullivan
and I both.
owns a garage?
officer
were tor
bit Of
were
He was Paul Erkola.
.
but he was gonna snoot
Do :'. you know Erkol.a that
~" kl(l LR)
I:
Un huh
R:
Their
I:
Edwin?
R:
He was a little
bit
on the
haven't
seen him for years.
I:
Curley?
Yeah, and the worst o£ it is, I had to pass that house where he
lives
four times a day when I used to go back and £orth to the
office
and he was gonna shoot both of us, you know.
And £inally,
I don't know, I guess John must have told his father
about
R:
brother,
yeah,
he was a...
screwie
side.
He's all
right
now...I
it...
EVT 1486
his father or mother or somebody about it
But he would have done it.
and they took the gun away.
I:
Was he a young man then?
R!
Well, he what-a-you
callum...he
was drinking
a lot but he got m4rried
after
that and he was a fisherman
down in the Traverse.
I don'1
know if he's still
there.
He come up to my office
once after
t~at,
him and his wife,
and he was drunk, but he was all right
then ~d
we talked
nice.
i
T!
Is
R!
Curley,
T~
Un hum
R:
Is
I:
I don't know if he's still
uncle used to run around...
R:
He was harmless except when he was drinking
too
an alcoholic,
but he straightened
out, I guess.
I:
Why did he get
him to jail?
R:
Yeah, John had arrested
him different
times,
drunk and all that,
and he had to pay a fine
another one.
I:
Did
R:
Sally?
I:
I understand
R:
I didn't,
I:
John
R:
that
Curley
yeah...have
he still
you met him?
down there?
she ever
Yeah,
Erkola?
so mad at
give
you
Dh brother,
in Traverse,
you?
any
don't
Did
but
you
~1ne
I know Who he 1s.
him
My
much.
He was r~ally
or
you
did
sentence
you know, for being
and Sally Kikkonen was
problems?
talk
you got a little
about
package
it.
in the
mail.
John did.
did?
she was gonna kill
they
that? And,
John tell
both, you
yeah.
times
us too.
Dh yeah, she threatened
me an~
oh she was...she
burned her house down.. r did
I:
Right...couple
R:
Did you hear that?
I:
No
R:
She did
it,
of it.
Dh, she was a bugger.
what the
I understand.
NO!
heck;
but
she hired
Wisti
and Wisti
got
her out
i
EVT 14g?
I:
Did
R:
She got under my skin so much...oh,
Condon, he was Prosecuting
Attorney
I...ft
the
she ever
he
next
had to
I:
said,
time
I
serve
Where did
Nn
give
you any problems...
ftGive
her
got her,
a hot
hot
she go to
it was terrible.
at that time !
ninety
I give
days
in jail.ft
her ninety
days,
summer...oh
she drove
jail?
them
So I told
I said,
ftSteTe,
said,
ftOkay.ft
So
no fine
and she
crazy
down there.
Here in Cal\DDet?
Houghton.
I:
Houghton,
eh.
R:
Ray Smith was sheriff
that time and oh, they had one heck of a time
with her.
She'd get papers and cigaretts
and she'd burn the papers
in the cell
I:
How old
R:
Oh Sally,
and oh, I don't
know what she didn't
do.
Well,
anyway...
was she then?
she must be close
to
sixty
now.
Yeah, but back then?
R:
Well, her husband paid hundred and hundreds of dollars
of fines and
then she'd break windows...they'd
kick her out of the tavern and
she'd take off her slipper
and bang, she'd break the picture
window.
And Bill
would pay...he'd
pay the big what-a-you-callum.
Oh she...
she was mad at ae and John...said
we were a bunch of...called
me
and Dan something about...we're
hungry for...money
hungry or something about her fines,
you know.
Oh, she was a dandy.
And she
always kept the money to pay her fine,
every time; but she got
...by
Sullivan
and 1...1
told John and my wife,
"I'm gonna ask
Steve,"
and he said,
"Give her ninety
days in the County jail."
So
then we had a sanity
hearing
for her once down at Houghton.
Wisti
was her attorney
there and she didn't
appear.
The Judge was gonna
fine her for contempt,
~o Sullivan
and I and we had a couple more,
we had to testify
there about her and Wisti,
he didn't
have a leg
to stand on, you know, we had all this
stuff.
So the Judge ordered
the sheriff
to go and pick her up and lock her up and he couldn't
find her...not
then, see.
So I don't know what happened...Wistt
and they...
Well, then I put her under a bond one time,
a hundred
dollar
bond to behave, see; and she put the money up and by God it
wasn't very long and boy she was...and
I forfeited
the bond.
I
sent it to the County Treasurer
and she wanted the money back.
I
said,
"You gotta get it from the Court in Houghton now, I haTen~t
got it no more," see.
Well, that didn't
stop.
Poor bugger, I felt
sorry for him.
I:
\vas she okay when she was sober?
R:
When she was sober she was all right.
clean as...you
couldn't
get a cleaner
a big fight
in here.
They said,
she had a home as
place.
They must think there's
Well anyway, a lot
of funny things
happened.
EVT 1488
I:
Did you ever have any wrestling
matches
they would lower
the bond down or lower
on anybody?
R:
Used to be a lot
about wrestling,
I:
No, I said, when you sentenced a man...say
you found him guilty
of
drunk and disorderly
or whatever and you'd sentence him to ten
days in jail,
did he ever get violent,
react violent
on you because
he didn't
like
the fine or didn't
like
the sentence?
R:
Dh yeah,
there
was a few times
John hadda...they
guy and throw
the cuffs
on 'em or something,
you
smart,
you know.
I:
Where
R:
I had an orfice
up over where LaBondiets
Jewelry
Store is now.
First
I was up down where that Master had that building
there on...
but he just
sold it now or is gonna sell it.
You know right
next
to the beauty parlor
there...right
next to Kilpelats.
I:
Okay,
R!
We were up there...Doc
Gosh and I were up there
for
we had to get out so then I went up over LaBondie's
lots
of cases up there.
T!
What about
R!
Well that's...l
don't
know too much about that
but they had th§m
here,
but I used to...where
the heck did they have them?
I don't
know.
Then they used to have them, I guess,
over in Agosy Park,
they had some over there.
I:
Were they
wrestling
matches?
I:
Were they
wrestling
matches?
R:
Yeah, they
man called
did
you
o~ Cornish
wrestling
didn't
you?
hold
your
or fighting
the fine
or
here...that's
matches when
jail
sentence
what
you
said
had a job with! a
know, they'd
g~t
:
court?
I know where you mean.
this
Cornish
wrestling
years
there.
and t~en
We had
you mentioned?
R:
people
jackets,
were wrestling
matches.
MOrgan, I fOrget...Chapman
here;
but
Cornish
Yeah,
see this
man Jones and a
there
was quite
a few Cotnish
they didn't
wrestle
ike they do now. They had!
style.
Of course
they had a lot
at Electric
P,rk,
i
of course that's
closed now for years, but the Cornish people w~uld
have a picnic
every year out there and then there'd
be a lot of!
wrestling
out there.
They'd have family
picnic,
no, most o~ the
time it was men...the
women didn't
go that time to the picnic
like
they do now. They'd have beer out there and lunch and 'h6,'d::p+-ay
horseshoe and wrestling
and stuf~ like
that.
Streetcar
was running
them days and the mining company they had a picnic
there a few years,
they'd
give everybody tickets
for the kids,
you know, for ice cream
and so forth,
and bands out there
and dancing and lots
of beer and
EVT 14~
pop.
I:
Didn't
they
have a lot
R:
Yeah,
I:
Where did they get the boxers
they from out of town?
R:
Well, local
and then some outsiders
would come in.
They had some..
there was a guy...I seen a wrestling
match up in there
too,
a man
called
Joe Zeer and it was catch as catch can and Cornish style.
Well Cornish style,
he threw the other guy like
that.
So then when
he come the other side of him he couldn't
do nothing.
He coul~'t
do nothing...Joe
Zeer now, he's dead too.
And then there was a
fellow
called
Jack Rouch, he was a sheriff
up in Gogebic County
years back, he's dead ~oo.
He wrestled
here too, I saw him too,
yeah.
And there was a lot of English
people here that time, yo~
know.
There wasn't many Finnish
people,
not then, they came later.
Of course there was a lot of Italians
and Croations
and Austrians,
but the Finnish
people they seemed to come later.
I:
When did
R:
I don't know. Must have started coming in the later
now that little
Finnish church there on Pine Street,
oldest church around here.
I:
Apostolic
R:
That little
one on that side the road, yeah.
That's
the church
where they don't wear no neckties,
the women don't wear no hats.
You know Sulo Lebinen,
don't you? The fire
warden?
I:
Right
R:
Well, that's
his church.
He's one of the big shots there.
The~
the other church is the big Finnish
church and they have good!
collections
on Sunday.
Did you ever go by there and see the cars?
I:
Yeah, right.
R:
Yeah, fellow
and I went by one day, said,
"What do you mean?" "Look at the cars!"
I:
Youwere telling
R:
Hum?
I:
When we first
came here, you were telling
us a little
story about
durin~ the strike
time there.
Tell us that over again, would rou?
they
had lots
of boxing
of boxing
too?
here but
down...upstairs
where th
Town Hall
is now, you know, upstairs
there
they had the boxing
~
matches
there.
I kind of think
now back,
that
was a small
plac
for them to have boxing
matches.
Maybe hold two hundred
people
that's
about all.
'I
the
Finns
Lutheran
start
from,
were they
local
people
or were
coming in?
Jots I guess,
thatts the
Church?
us a little
story
about
"Good collections
today."
the...
EVT 149Q
R:
When the strike
came?
I:
About the
R.
Db, down at Tamarack
I:
In North Tamarack.
R.
Oh, that was the National
Guard.
You see, the company got...th~
Governor he sent in the troops
in here, see.
Of course, the whqle
county was on strike.
i
I:
That
fl-
Yes and this
(1) from Tamarack,
he...the,e
guys went,
they werelof
course
going
around like
you fellows,
just
checking
around,
and!
when they got over there
these women they cleaned
out the toilets
and threw
it allover
these
guys.
And when they come back the.an
in charge
he just
sat down and we terd,W8
laughed,
you know, at! the
way they looked.
'.
i
people
was in
that
came back with
Tell
us that
all
story
that
human stuff
on...
again.
1913.
I:
Didntt
they do that when the women had their
what it was, but they were striking
too for
womants sufferage
their
husbands.
or
R:
What was that?
I:
When the women were striking.
R:
The women,
the morning
depot when
paper, see.
around the
women, see.
her in the
I:
No, tell
R:
Jennie
I:
Just
R:
Well,
these
holler
doors
I:
You mean in the
~!
Yeah and the law was passed right
after
that,
yeah, the what-a~youcallum.
And then they had these Wadell men in here, they brought
them in.
Did Jack tell
you about these Wadell men, they were strike
breakers
that's
what, but they were a bunch of crooks too because
they didn't
stay long, because the job didn't
last and they were
getting
big money.
They came in here from New York and there was
oh sure, you know they'd...the
train
used to come inl in
at hal£ past six and I used to always go down to th~
I lived
in Tamarack...didn't
live here then...to
get! a
Well all this
strikers,
women, they'd
be all march~ng
town, you know.
They'd be down there too, see, thes~
Well this
one woman, this
Big Jennie , I told you abput
£ire?
me about
it
Flossiter?
briefly,
you
tell
us about
it.
all
I know at the time,
she was the leader
of these
women,
union women, see, and she was the one that
was supposed
to
"Fire"
out to their...there
wasn't
any fire,
and the darn
instead
of going out,
they come in.
Italian
Hall
thing?
EVT 149~
all kinds of things
charged against
the union,
guys.
They wanted to make the job good.
they
get the
wasn't
to them
I:
Where did
R!
Wadel!?
I:
Yeah, where did
R:
Well,
that
I:
Ob, I
see.
R:
Yeah, because one of the union officials
said that...I
heard thft
story long ago...he
said,
"We'll
come in here,"
he said,
"and c,ll
this
strike
and then the Wadell men will
come in and break it."
that
was the
name Wadell
it
men?
name come from?
name of
some kind
We knew what-a-you-callum...they
course
after
the Italian
Hall
of detective
lost
disaster,
agency in New York.
the strike,
of course.
that
broke the,
you
Of
know,
I:
Broke the
strike.
R:
Yeah,
I:
Where were you when that
R:
Not
Ii ved
there
up innotTamarack
then, that
and was
I went
Christmas
to town Eve
andand
I met
I went
a fellow
to town.
and~;i I
people
had to
calm this
happened when the massacre
started?
said,
"You comming home early."
Then he told me, "Didn't
you
ow
what happened?"
And I told him, "No!" He told me, so I went ri ht
downtown then, down to where they got the fire
trucks
now and t e
police
station
there...and
they had all these bodies laying
on the,
you know, and Mr. McNaughton, he was the President
of the comp~y
then and he asked some of his how long would it take to make caskets,
you know, because there were so many you know and they said they
could make them, I don't know how quick they could make them in the
carpenter
shop.
And the union said ~o, we'll
get our own caskets.~
They wouldn't
stand for that.
I:
Your story~of
what happened there,
there.
How did it happen.
R:
Well,
all I know is this woman she claimed
Austrian...see
there were a lot of Austrian
word
there
That's
would
you tell
us what happened
they hollered
people...but
"Fire"! in
what t~e
for fire
is,
I don't
know; but there
was a Christmas
tree
and there
was no fire.
And everybody
rushed to go out.
the way that
doorway...the
stairway
the back, there
did
I could
going
was a fire
somebody actually
see it.
up.
And they
And
some
escape there,
holler
fire
all
people
i
:
jammed in th
got
out
thro
~
r
h
see.
I:
Well,
or not?
R:
No, I guess she was the only one; but panic,
you know, was a panic.
I suppose it was...it
was mostly young kids there.
I suppose there
were some older people too.
This here murder around that tavern on
Sixth Street
there,
he had some people in that fire.
And when they
EVT 149~
brought
'em past here going to the cemetery,
they were carrying!
the bodies out there,
you know, they didn't
have enough hearsesl
around here, they were carrying
them.
I don't know how many th~re
was now; it was the wintertime
too.
But it couldn't
have happeped
at a worse time, you know, Christmas Eve, you know.
And the tawerns
were all open, they didn't
close the taverns
that night,
they stayed
open just the same. They had to get that money.
I:
You said that before you were magistrate
there,
before
Justice
of the Peace, you had a credit
union or credit
was that?
R:
I worked where?
I:
You had a credit
R:
That
with
I:
What was the
R:
Well, the merchants see, all these merchants paid so much a mon~h
to belong to the credit
bureau.
Well then,
somebody wanted to get
credit
they'd
call us and ask me..~ell
so and so, how's his cr~dit?"
Good or bad or what I know of it,
see.
And then I used to make! a
lot of outside
reports,
insurance
reports
on credit
and stuff
l~ke
credit
credit
bureau
was in
connection
bureau?
There was a lot
What kind of access
Would you check the
money from?
R:
or.
was in connection
with it...the
the Justice
of the Peace.
that.
I:
bureau
you were
bureau.
What
of stuff
I did.
i
did you have to get credit
banks or check the stores
ratings
on the
they owe...they
p~ople?
bbrrowed
!
Well, the fellow
that I took over from, Frank (?), he was an 01
time credit
man and he had these records.
I had thousands and
thousands of...I
had files
with all these peoples names, see,
m
way back that he had and somebody'd ask about I'd look up and
d
what they had before and so forth
and every month I'd get out
bulletin,
people they'd
call up and they'd want to know about
and about him and I'd put their
names on the bulletin
and I ha
code there and these merchants would call up, "I see so and so'
name, what about h1m?W So, I could te1l him, see.
And then we
used to try to collect
some money too...we
collected
some! not ~ike
that
man
Kat..
Did
you
ever
meet
Katz?
He's
that
Jew
co
lectdr.
But when Mr. (?) had the of'fice,
he had a place here and Lake
Linden both.
He had two offices
and he was something new when he
came here and the stores never had anything
like that bef'ore.
Yeah,
because there was a lot of' guys, deadbeats,
you know.
record.
TT One
fellow"
his
a bad
he
got
1
"you
And after
they i
said,
"No, I ~idn't
hell
said,
I
the
'" I
then see.
me in."
what
but,
them,
turned
then.
know
in,
about
"You
don't
they found out
.~'iOmebody
said,
"I
you
got
wages
turn
after
out,
them any credit
said,
No,
find
give
he
R!
wouldn't
and
The stores
garnisheed,
I:
EVT 149~
wanted to garnishee
me," he said. that's
Harry King, he's dead ~ow
...you
know Bob King he runs the Insurance
Office?
He said, "I i
don't know what he wants the money for,
he gots lots of moneY." ~ I
said, "sure,"I said,
"He gots lots of money but who pays for t e
insurance?
If you don't pay it,"
I said, "he's got to pay it 0 t.
He's paid it already."
Now there was a grocery store on Pine
Street there and he said, "I don't know what he gotta garnishee
a
man," he said, "they got lots of stU£f in the store.~
I said,
"Yeah, but where'd they get it."
I said,
"They gotta buy it be i ore
they give it to you. don't they?"
"Yeah",
so there you are.
T ere
were some poor buggers they'd
get garnisheed
every week or evert
1
I
month; but they wouldn't
How do they
start
make any effort
going
about
to pay their
to garnisheeing
your
bills.
i
wages?
R!
Well, they used to go through me, Justice
of the Peace, see, an~
they get a judgement,
what they call a judgement and then you s.e
on...all
they do is they usually
bring in their
bill
and say
garnishee
'em and get a judgement...haveto
wait so many days a~ter
you get a judgement;
but that law changed now.
You gotta have
lawyer come in and get a judgement.
i
I:
Well
R:
Well, the mining company used to take out a certain
percent
for the
man and give you the difference.
I forget
now what the percent.ge
was...a
married man gets sixty
percent of his wages and forty
p~rcent would go to the creditor.
And a single man was different'ibut
I forget
now just what the figures
was, the percentages
anyway.:
Then they changed the law just a couple years before or after
Ii
quit that nobody can start
suit unless they get a lawyer to go in
court and do it,
see.
Before the merchants ended up with it all,
they just come in and bring in the bill
and say, "I want to garnishee
this
son-of-a-gun."
He said, "They won't pay, I've tried
everything."
I say, "Otay,~ and Solomon wouldn't
even appear.
You garnishee
and
get the check, they wouldn't
even come in and show them, you know,
they knew they owed it,
you know.
Other ones again, would make a
fuss about it.
I:
What did they do when you fined somebody and they didn't
have the
money to pay the fine?
What would happen? Did they go to jail~
R:
Sent
I:
And they
R:
Well, yeah, some o£ 'em you let
'em go so they'll
get the mone~ and
n1nety~£1ve
percent
o£
them
got
the
money.
There's
a £ew that: '
never got paid, but then you got a county £or~1~.
I:
Then the
it:
Yeah
then
get their
the businessman
would
go to where the man worked
money before he'd get paid then.
'em to
jail,
could
county
and ~e'd
I
yeah.
stay
in
had to
jail
until
pay for
they
those.
could
get the
money.
r
the
on
~
and they
he beat her up, so he had to
day.
So, next day a little
g
ard.
i.
"Oht oh,"
id,
matt
WOUldn't
way,"!
This
divo~ced
got
ffWe
said.
"Sure!"
ypu?"
ain't
diyorced,
Poli~e;
H
&
one...C
befpre
out,
come
she
H~
out.
him
brought
th~y
and
something
or
policemen,
two
the
then
WWhat
said,
I
"Yes!"
t
her.
knew
I
mad.
was
I
the
in
"What
said,
I
Well
She
woman.
this
comes
in
soon,
w~s
there
seen
I
but
there
t~
back
come
to
call
a
got
I
so
so
coroner,
was
I
and
Tech
to
going
was
he
yeah
Tech,
to
going
was
he
there,
living
was
nephew
my
Houghton,
in
down
was
I
case,
one
was
they'd...th,re
and
workers
case
had
we
workers,
case
had
we
no,
Oh
to them.
the
t
u
and,i"
the
was
I
mines.
the
they
there?"
for?"
be
gonna
was
I
where
word
left
I
I:
What did you do? Decide whether
you'd give it to them or if they
many welfare
g
she
me and I got two kids
called
that,
know
Department."
can't
I
Office
"What's
hear
together?"'
before
just
in
nobody
was
there
station
police
the
to
"Okay".
know,"
Welfare
he
was
so
Tamarack
that,
here
I
pretty
So
jail,see.
in
somebody
Why we used to meet once a month and we had a director
there,
a man
called
Rohn, they have a man today like
that;
but Domnic Viror
he
worked for us.
You know Dominic?
Dominic worked on it.
(???(1
would talk
about it.
These people would get maybe fifteen
- tw$nty
dollars
a week or something,
see.
Now they get...well
you know
how they get now...oh
terrible.
have
girl
don't
get more from the Welfare
the
"You're
he
during
Well
like
am
hell
the
in
WWhat
said,
said,
minute,
"I
to
sleep
said,
North
Just
for?"
here
I
am
hell
R!
What were your
said,
in
that?"
"You
So
hopping,
husband
that...your
is
"Who
said,
What
you
this
a
the
I
didn't
She
money
is
Tucker,
in
up.~
me
beat
"He
do?"
he
did
So I
to
So he come out,
he plead lUilty,
fine.
He.paid the fine the next
wait
like
would
~-he
was
over
been
they'd
in,
come
1:
Did
matter,
"my husband deserted
up
crying.
said,
i~?)
she
So,
see.
in,
come
up here.
"Why?"
was
"I
was
he
Frank
right.
all
up
her
beat
No...no.
I was on the Welfare Board, that was the best part of it.
I got appointed
from the Court in Houghton and I was on the Wel are
Board.
There was thpee of us...there
was the Superintendent
of
School in Lake Linde~ a very smart man, and a man called
Fisher
from Michigan Tech, a professor
and then had this ordinary
guy nd
them two, see; and the Welfare Board, it wasn't
like
it is now.
No...no.
then?
the
Well
said,
I
divorce
Well
out,
him
brought
they
R:
do then?
what's
enough
making
conversation
the
during
and
station
nothing.
say
"Yes."
said,
She
Yeah
she
Department
she sa1d, "I
damned
a
of
kind
"What
I:
said.
and
wasn't
he
becaus~
You mean welfare?
anything."
she
didn't
She
they?"
R:
"Well,
she said,
anything."
Well
Welfare
"the
said,
the police
office
my
in
came
give it
me
give
you?"
with
Did you have much welfare
then?
you
said,
me
give
won't
I:
did
I
and
won't
"they
R:
office
EVT 149~
c~ses
duties?
they deserved the money and th t n
didn't
deserve it you wouldn't
I
So when I come up
OC
y a
1
i
EVT 149~
,
any welrare?"
(???).
Well I said,
"All right",
I said,
"Ir she!
lives
with her husband and stays together
with him and he's wor~ing, you'll
give it to them." "Who do you mean?" I told him...:
he said,
"We suspected something like that."
He said,
"Send th ~t
girl
back."
So the girl
got both, got relier.
So a couple day
afterwards
I got a call
rrom the main orrice.
Said, "Mr. Trezi e,"
and
I
said,
"What?"
"You
made
some
statement
the
other
abO[ t
Garrows."
I said,
"Yes I did."
"Is that
true?W
I said, day"Yeah
that's
what you said.that
they got the divorce
so she could
get on
relief
and he's
still
working
and they're
still
living
together"
And
they made
get outall or they
the house
she moved
he stayed
there, her that's
done. and
That's
all
it downtown
was ror aj ~ dst
thatUme.
back living
It
real
didn't
together
matter
again.
months
they
we e
You bet
though.
I:
Well,
R:
Mining
I:
The mining company?
R:
Yeah, they worked the No.5 Tamarack.
They requested
water the e,
shut the water off,
see and we only worked part..half
time.
Wo ked
seven days and home seven days, I guess.
And my dad was mail c erk
on the trains
and he helped us out quite a bit and I had five k ds
too.
We got by, but I don't know how we did it,
but we got by.
Of course, things
was cheap; but even so, we didn't
have nothin
to
throwaway.
But my dad was mail clerk and of course he was get ing
pretty
good wages for them days, and he used to give us some mo ey
every once in awhile.
Of course I had a sister
married too, an
he helped her too, but she wasn't living
here.
The Depression
as
a bad thing,
boy, but we were fortunate.
We had what-a-you-cal
um
and then of course we bought our fuel from the company cheap, t at
was when it was §Y."cQollar8a ton, I guess it was, we paid
something like
that;
cheap rent...the
company sold us these ho ses,
you know that didn't
you...that
stbry.
I paid $25 for this ho see
I didn't
pay that.
My dad was having dinner here and he said,
"How much do they want for this house?"
And I said,
"Twenty-f
e
dollars."
And he give me it and said,
"Go bQY it!"
Five doll
s
a room.
LI
I:
What
R:
Oh, I don't know.
'28 or '29 something like
that.
We didn't
the house right
away then.
We got the house later
on.
I supp se
in the thirties
sometime that they sold us the houses.
But yo
know, the company up on the Avenue where you people are, they
all new fUrnaces in them houses for their
employees.
They wer
the bosses, then they sold them I guess for thirty-five
- fort
times
where were you working
during
the
five
R:
hard
during
or
Was it
were
here
rour
I:
there
hard times
because
the
Depression?
Depression.
I worked
then?
company
I
I
year
was that?
EVT 149~
dollars
a piece.
Dad said, "Oh boy!"
Sure I spent a lot more
twenty-five
dollars
to fix this up.
The siding
and bathroom...
we had a bathroom in here,
yeah.
This used to be a bosses hous
see.
There was no porch here like this.
A lot
were a lot of things
during the Depression
that
It was pretty
tough.
I:
Can you remember anyother
R:
Lot of things
happened but it
were
funny
in...like
a
han
ell
fUnny incidents
of things;
we had to
that
we'd be interest~d
in the Courts or...
lot
of
things
,
but
here
go wi hout
I
hard to remember them, you knoW.
t
happened.
Johnnie
Sullivan
can
i
There
tell
you
one funny thing that happened.
There was a £ellow shot his he
o££
here and Johnnie called me and we went over there and I said,
" ees,
Johnnie look!"
And his head was up and down like that.
He wa~
dead, he'd
shot himsel£,
but his head you know.
Jesus, we cal~ed
for an ambulance, we thought he was gonna...like
a chicken,
yo~ know.
Jesus, that was a horrible
sight.
The next day John's brother
~ent
over and cleaned the walls and all that.
They paid him for it,1 the
family
did, see.
All that blood and all it goes, you know.
I
I:
As the
R.
What?
I:
Was that
it
coroner,
did
part
of your
job then
pronounce
people
dead then
too when you were County
too~
Corone1'
to pronounce people dead?
R:
Oh yes, yeah
I:
Did
R:
you have to
you
sign
the
was
i
certificate?
Yeah, the certificate,
yeah.
Only one case, the family...the
shot himself,
he shot his head off down in the basement, and I,
marked it suicide.
The sheriff's
officer...well
two sheriff's
officers
and I were there and we cleaned up in the cellar.
Th
family
woUldn't
come near it.
So the undertaker
and I and the
two sheriff's
men, we cleaned up the basement, boy, washed it
up and everything.
So a couple days afterward,
they called
me
down to Houghton, some undertakers.
And the family
was there
they insisted
that he didn't
commit suicide.
It was an accide
"Oh yeah, oh well,
we'll
have an inquest
then."
So we had an
inquest
over in Houghton and (111), he was there and one of th
guys, now it was a question
of...
ellow
1
nd
t.
se
End of Side 2
what happened?
What'd
Let's
it
go back to that
took
the
whole
jury
trail
out
where you had t~at
to
where
it
happen,d1
it
was suicide."
was no occasion
i
soo
s
for me to call
t,
about
off
a
and
that
Conservation
question
no
a
and
was
guns
"There's
there
about
said,
he
on
all
But there
guy
knew
one
he
And
layout
the
over
yeah.
and
I
German
was
people,
looked
Six
he
R:
and
Six people?
as
So
suicide.
cer
I:
it
ny
EVT 149~
thing
else,
what the
perform
heck.
I:
Did they
R:
Oh,
I:
Who did
R:
That used to go down to Hancock.
there was two there.
I:
Who were they...can
R:
Hum...!
~orget
what their
names were now.
lived
here too.
What's
his name, he lived
we had quite
now.
autopsies
then?
a few autopsies.
that?
They had a pathologist
you remember who they
He was here quite
a while.
there.I..
were?
Then we had one tbat
up where Dr. Myers i r
He was a nice fellow.
:..
I:
Did you have to witness
R:
Dh, we'd
1:
Did you have an autopsy
R:
See, that time they didn't
charge much for an autopsy,
but for
fifty
dollars.
Now they charge a couple two hundred fifty,
th
hundred dollars.
One time I was out to McClain Park and Jamie
m
the rent-a-boat
come up and got me, he said, "They want you to
to Hancock, there's
somebody dead.n
So I said,
nOkay.n
So I
ed
up this pathologist
and told him I'd meet him at the Scott Hot
Okay so I went down there and I went right
to the undertakers
ead
of going up to see...to
find him, you know, see.
And he was g
8
perform autopsy.
And I finally
went up to the hotel and he wa
mad,~because I'd went to the undertakers
and he raised hell wit
me, he wouldn't
do it and all this and that and he was gonna r port
me and all that.
Okay, so I went back to the Sheriff's
Office
nd
we got ahold of one of the boys~ State Police
boys, I forget
w t
he was called,
used to be in L'Anse,
see.
I knew him good.
S
he come over, nOh the hell with him,n he said, "We'll
take car
f
him," he said.
I:
Joe
R:
He was Little...you
I:
He was Post
get
people,
always be there.
these?
oh somebody from the
all
the
time
sheriff's
or just
department
on any violent
8abe?
wouldn't
Commander, wasn't
know him
don't
I/think.
he?
R:
I:
.
Wasn't
R:
Little?
I:
Oh.
he the
Post
Commander there?
He was a State
vou mean a detective?
Police
from LtAnse
Post,
I think.
~ould
I
t~...
EVT 14~g
R:
He what-a-you-callum.
He came up, the boys called
him...they
ahold of him somewheres, so he what-a-you-callum
and we had th
officer
there but we had somebody else on the form, you see.
was a what-a-you-callum,
just a heart attack,
a person;
but th
fellow
he was a, this pathologist
was mad~ because I didn't
ge
him to go up to the undertakers.
Well, what the difference
if
went up afterwards
or when I went there.
I just went in there,
knew the undertaker.
So then we went down there,
he made me ma
boy.
I never had him anymore after
that.
He left
here right
that too.
Dh there were a lot of autopsies
performea.
We had
guy, he was arrested...well
he wasn't arrested
then...but
they
a fiaht
on Fifth
Street.
There was a lot of critism
and all t
and he'd been buried and everything...there
was no coroner
officiated
because he died in the hospital,
I guess, I forget
story now.
But anyway, they wanted to have him dug up and hav
autopsy.
Gees, they told me to get out papers.
I didn't
know
kind of papers to get for that.
So I went up to Ryan's office
McCormick's
there and we found some kind of stuff
to put on it,
so I made out...Jack
Miller
who used to be the State Police,
I
he's been dead for a long time...well
Jack said, WThat's good
So, they dug up the bodyr_~out at the cemetery.
Brought it over
Ryans and Dr. Murphy he performed the autopsy.
Took him all d
But this
here skull
fracture...you
know he had a skull
but Murphy said that was from
It didn't
happen in the fall,
something
see.
1:
How long
the
R:
Gees, I don't
had the
body
know.
been
in
that
was...they
murder
Street
or whatever,
manslaughter,
over a woman.
were
Nothing
happened
T!
One hit
the
R:
Doctor
nothing
I:
How did
R:
Well
I
going
to
they'd
there,
other
over
he just
he
an
what
and
and
guess
nough."
0
y.
...
ba k.
then?
him
like
for
had a fight
that.
it,
Th
see,
f
,
S
r
on Fifth
the
died.
head with
a bottle?
said that skull
fracture
was from
to do with this
case at all.
the
, oh
fter
one
had
t
fractur
happened years
something
arrest
e
I
What were the incidents?
happened?
R:
ground
Six weeks maybe,
fellow
that
t
s
It
s
guy
a way back.
He said
die?
suppose he had a concussion
when he hit
the
pavement.
hauled
him off
and hit
him; but they never did anything
to Jo ~ nie
C...I
forget
his last
name.
They never
did anything
to him an
ay.
But that
was the first
and only time I ever seen them dig up a
body.
Did you ever see it?
I:
Yes,
I've
seen
it
once
before.
R:
He was black...face
was all black.
So, I know he asked Miller
he want to take anything
else beside the head,
he said nYeap,
everything,"
he said.
So, they opened him all up.
I couldn't
did
EVT 149~
see any senae in that either
because it was the head where he ~s
supposed to have been hurt.
But Miller
said, nyup!~
One time ~e
had a baby dead over in Laurium,
it was a little
bit o£ a (?)...
that was about the baby's death.
It was on a Sunday morning a
we were over at Folsots
and Murphy was the doctor again to wan an
autopsy and there was a casket salesman there and Murphy looke
at
the body and he didn't
want to do it,
see.
And he kept monkey g
around, monkeying around and this
salesman said to me, "Doesn't
he
know how to do it?"
He said, nI can do it."
I:
R:
He wanted
to
sell
that
So Murphy finally,
natural
causes
I can do it."
casket.
he fixed
anyway,
He said,
he was.
up the baby, I don't
but the salesman
said,
"I've
done it before."
know it
"If
I
was
he can't
do *
don't
know w
I:
You know, you look at the cemetery and you look at the stones
especially
in Copper Harbor I noticed
there's
a lot of kids in
that cemetery.
R:
I never
I ..
D1ptheria...was
R:
There's
been in
a lot
Copper Harbor
that
of
kids
Yeah, why was that?
cemetery.
a thing
much of
,
up here.
there.
Do you
know?
R:
They got worked in the mines when they were young.
You go to
gle
River cemetery,
we've got people buried there,
and them stones
here
about this boy died working in the mines, thirteen
years old 0
something like that,
twelve years old, eleven years old.
Gees,
that was terrible,
eh!
I:
What did they die from?
R:
I suppose, something happened in the mine...I
something or fall,
I don't know what.
suppose,
I:
Did you ever
like
anything like
this
R:
The ~lu...years
terrible
flu.'
ago there was a bad ~lu epidemic.
that was a long time ago now.
I:
When was this?
R:
Dh, that was before I lived
in this house.
I know the fellow
worked with,
there was three of his family
and him himself,
th
all died with it within
twenty-four
hours.
Yeah, it was a te
flu,
that was.
Yeah, that was old (?) and him and his three c
they all died within
twenty-four
hours.
The first
one died an
Father he was all broke up about it and the next thing you kno
have like
Accidents
a rash
of this
in the mine or just...
of disease
here
blasting
diptheria
or
ozt
sort?
I
Oh that
wasla
y
ible
ildren
the
, he
EVT 150~
was dead and then
buried one time.
two other
Did that
R:
That was in the
I:
Do you remember when that
R:
Huh?
I:
You know that
R:
I remember reading
I:
I see that
was.
Did
I:
Right,
I heard
R:
That's
the Moreland,
I:
Bangor, that's
R:
Is
I:
Yeah
R:
Yeah, I remember that,
I:
Do you
R:
Dh yeah.
I:
What happened there,
R:
Bad storm,
yeah,
I:
How'd they
get the
boat went off
sunk off
about
that?
down off
Keweenaw Point~
Keweenaw Point
that
had all
th~
about
no.
I don't
time.
know what year ~at
it.
isn't
No, Bangor?
it?
ot Bangor,
the City
brought
the
that's
what
it
cars
back up?
was.
yeah.
that?
a bad storm?
Chrysler
me there's
on there.
a couple
of those
still
d
hete
ey
d
J
t
ad
that
they
they
one
them,
and
road
but
what
had
driving
a
cars;
that's
Power
were
make
these
know,
believe
that
road,
a
drive
you
I
guys
or
to
open
much
or
so
them
was,
those
there
But
drove
believe
there
out
road
a
gettin
they
I
yeah.
I
were
how
yes.
else,
be,
care
here
t
fro
a
here
out
cars
road
the
cars
suppose.
I
on
a
drive
open
to
them
had
They
loaded
factory,
they
to
then
back
and
here
somebody told
cars
shore?
town
boat1to
from
guys
the
wintertime.
these
orr
went
they
up
was
hired
cars
these
to
was it
and had all
it
they
Harbor
them,
I
but otherwise
it,
one where they
They
build
that
it,
know,
then
don't
shipped
catch
area.
somebody
Could
didn't
else
was four
yeah
the paper all
the
see that
Larry?
remember
in this
said.
R:
boat
in
you
Seems like
to
I:
thirties,
There
died.
can you remember that?
the
Copper
I
and
that
around?
the
cars on it,
children
Did anybody
I:
R:
spread
his
They had them allover
today they'd
just sell
here, they loaded
them for junk.
them on cars.
I suppos
I:
Or antiques.
R:
Antiques
I:
If
of
R:
I see the
I:
Yeah,
R:
Oh,
I:
Do you remember when the
Location?
R:
No,
I:
King
R:
That's way back, yeah.
This Jack Schlou, he was one o£ them, he
to Marquette
and was a £ellow called
Jim Cruise,
a good £riend 0
mine, he got elected
sheri£f
and made him one o£ his deputies.
was a what-a-you-callum.
He was selling
cigars
on the side and
go in the tavern at night about ten minutes before it was time t
close,
you know, and he'd stand around there and he'd keep them
you know.
All right,
he'd arrest
them, see, £or keeping them op
a£ter hours.
Only way to get out of it was they hadda buy so ma
hundred cigars.
He was...you
mnow, a racket.
Another one o£ th
officers
would pick up the slot machines,
you know, and bring
'e
out on US 41 in the woods there 4:n the wilderness
there and open
up and take the money out and leave them there.
Oh boy, them we
the days.
somebody still
it.
had one,
other
it's
day where
real
high
they
could
scrap
probably
iron
in
.
ng
wa
were tak
there
they
cars
many
how
know
don't
I
There was a bunch of guys,
yeah.
Duluth,
to
wintertime.
cars
these
was in the
f
EVT 1501
make an antique
o,t
$160 a ton
now
brother.
I don't
family
remember that.
was involved
was held
up?
That when Jack
Between
?)
here
and them,
and Bo~ton
yeah.
in that.
slot
u'd
pen,
n ,
y
'em
e
Did you have a lot
R:
Oh them days...yes,
I:
Was that
R:
There was slot machines every store and every saloon had 'em...t
or three o~ them.
One time, Jay S..,,-.d...Pierce
was sherif~
a d
they called
up Ruby Roll,
Ruby was deputy then, see, they told
1m
to go and pick up a machine, that was in somebody's place,
I do 't
know where it was, so Ruby not only took that one but he took
ther
one.
He took one ~or himself,
see, and that was the one that t e
sheri~~ was protecting,
see.
And he wanted Ruby to bring it ba
lots
the
period
machines
went
I:
during
of
train
of them.
before
here?
Slot machines everywhere.
the
strike
when there
were a lpt
of people here?
Rubv wouldn't
do it.
I
Ruby told
me "Terrible,
mister,
he wanted
e
Were they
R:
Them days,
I:
So they
making
iS
~
had
mad
they
the
Pierce
Sheriffs
Jay
up
machines,
racket.
slot
the
a
picked
Ruby
and
about
that
talk
one
sheriff.
did
houses
Oh,
the
But
know.
sporting
they
the
you
one."
than
I:
R:
it,
got
in
I
between
money
more
days
fingers
and
EVT 1502
a little
money off
of the
sporting
houses
too?
oh yes.
wouldn't
I suppose.
lives
Probably,
yeah...there
was one girl/out
here on the edge o£ town
I
married her, she married...you
gotta give her credit,
she marrie
this guy and when she married him one of her girls
had a baby an
she wanted this kid to have the name and she married this
guy.
e
didn't
stay, the guy left
her right
away a£ter.
Well anyway, sh
got arrested
for ~ning
a house of ill
fame and Dan McDonald wa on
that case and when she got into the sherif£'s
of£ice,
she jumped the
sheriff.
She said, "Here I've
been giving
you fi£ty
dollars
a m nth
for protection
and this
is what happens."
~iving
me fifty
doll rs,"
he says, "Yes!"
ttI never got any money from you in my life."
mw 11,
I give it to Farmer."
That was Farmer Kane, you know, what-a-yo
callum.
Farmer Kane used to run a taxi.
He was collecting
the
fifty
dollars
a month, and Pierce never knew anything
about it.
d
Jay told me I was quite good friends
with Jay Pierce,
he said,
ou
know that oid bugger,~ he said, "he was a gettin
money from the
ggers
others too.
I didn't
know a thing about it,"!he
said.
There wa a
nigger
sporting
that.
raid
the
house
there
too.
I:
I heard
R:
Well,
here
I:
What were they charging
R:
And
Dan McDonald
in onof it,course,
I'm sure
he was in was
on the
it,
there
right
yeah.
house,
All
black
was one down here,
by the
depot
there.
then,
or just
one
was
in
one
Laurium
too,
but one d~wn
do you known
operate unless they get some kind
body gonna help you, you know.
Chief know.
of Police.
guesscan'
Daf was
you
Because I they
of protection
or if
there's
I:
Right
R:
But they had between the sporting
houses and slot machines,
stur~ like that.
Sheri£fs
they had a lot o£ stuff.
I:
Under the
R:
Yeah
I:
Well,
R:
Dan McDonald,
he sells
cars
Paulson's
place
is there.
table
so e-
you *=now,
sturr.
can you think
of anything
over
else,
there
Norman.
to
Paulson's...you
know where
I
EVT 1503
I:
He was the
Chief
of Police
before
John Sullivan.
,
R:
He was the Chief of Police before Sullivan,
yeah.
I was with hi
I worked with Dan a long time, yeah.
Dan knows a lot about the
times too.
Jake Kaiser used to know, Jake is dead now.
I:
Well,
here.
End of
tape.
I want to thank
you for
all
the
information
you've
given
,
ld
U
t