Capitol Cloakroom - Everett M. Dirksen

Capitol Cloakroom - Everett M. Dirksen

FOR IMMEDIATE PWEASE
w
t
h ANNIVERSARY BROADCAST
YAPITOL
CLOAKROOM"
on t h e
CBS RADIO NETWORK
Wednesday, 14arch 27,
3: 10
- 4:00
GUESTS:
Pbl, EST
S e n a t o r Mike Mansfield (D., Mont.)
Senator E v e r e t t McKinley Dirksen (R.,
111.)
Representative Carl Albert
(D.,
Okla.)
R e p r e s e n t a t i v e Gcrald Ford
(R., Mich.)
I n t e r v i e w e d by CBS News N a t i o n a l Correspondent E r i c S e v a r c i d
Produced by E l l e n Wadley
P r e s s Contact:
E t h e l Aaronson, Washington, D.C.,
New York, Martin P c t r o f f , 765-4321.
296-1234; i n
+my Panger possible
afraid
- =sly
- this
i s a big, generalized question, I'm
30r7%rpcscssible fox khe Gongress to set the country's
ccurse, either in domestic or foreign matters anynore? Can it
lead?
3eusatcir Dixksen, what do you t h i n k ?
%,TUTOR EV%TT MC SINLEY DXRkSEN:
;.A;,
Well the Congress, f i r s t of
has a primax-2 r ~ f e
in another field, best expressed by P. V.
Jmi*h,
tare-tbx? pmfessar at *he Uatvex3ity of Chicaqo.
X remember him.
SEVmXD:
DIP.?.?.SEN:
tern xan o u t
'Who aarved one
tam i n We Congress.
- w e had r e d i s t r i c t e d t h e s k a t e .
Rild when t h a t
H e was a rnder' a t
limp and therefore Ehat was the end of h i s congresskonal tout.
&nd
j:
you've been a professor of p o l i t i c a l
s a i d to him, ' P . V . ,
science, what i s your estimate now?"
W a l l , he s a i d , "I've been C w l y astonished.
of a l a , &he g r e a t hanncpnizer.
Atnkody ever quite gets a l l t h a t he
N o individual, no group, no i n s t i t u t i o n .
want9.
Congress is, f i r s t
.rasually gets a l i t t l e somsthinq.
Everybody
k i d Congress always keeps i t
an an m e n k e e l . "
And t h a t P &one of 9ts great
roiea, I-*ink,
service,
Ea9:
"&e
d\nd,
now more responsive ko your question
Cbngreas can l e a d
i n public
- whethex o r n o t
- why c e r t a i n l y the Congress can Lead.
in f a c t , t h a t ' s me of its funtrtfons
- f 8-to % a a ; 1 3 t
takes x e c w n d a e o n s , of course, from t h e President.
e v e q o a e r r a s p c t a i f ' n expected to s t r i k e o u t i n
-
----
But i n
a l l these
fields of a c t f w i t y .
You nus$:never forge&t h a t t h e language of the Constitution
speaking of We S t a t e of the Union, says the President s h a l l i r n n
k i m "Lo t i m e give Congress i n f o m a t i a n of t h e S t a t e of &e
Vnion
?ad ~ e e o m e n d a t i o n s . but f r o m t h a t p o i n t on, i t 3 @
up Co Congress.
And
&inat
means leadership.
SEVLWXD:
Mr. Albert.
'It,PPWS%NTATIPJE CA%
.?&BERT:
m y I add t o
Saaak~s:Dizksen has saia, sane s p e c i f i c s .
- i n seconding what
I n the f i r s t place, t h e Senate has just passed and s e n t t~
the Howe a major c i v i l r i g h t s proposal.
I suppose, i n a sense,
every i t e m i n t h a t b i l l has been rewmmended, a t one time o r
another, by the President.
But I looked over my list t h i s morning of P r e s i d e n t i a l
dations i n e h a t f i e l d .
E t c e r t a i n l y wasn't anything l i k e
aer broad as the b i l l which the Senate has s e n t t o the House.
Ncm thzlt has been true of many things.
Some things the
A d d n i s t r a t i o n has s e n t t o Congress and Congxess has accepted.
Som&imes the Congress changes them.
I n someLareag the Congress
cowp4llekely i n i t i a t e s them.
H d m ' t r e c a l l , f o r instance, t h e ARA program, which was
.,very c o n t r o v e r s i a l , e v e r coning from an Administration u n t i l
it had been b a t t e d around on t h e H i l l f o r a long t i m e .
SEVnBEID:
The ARA?
I mean t h e -@a
ALBERT:
RedevePopmsnt program.
---
3ad '9 think t h a t qs t z e z e of many things.
Pot
-a
.
--
I think there's a
l o t of t h i n g s that we overlook.
Bzesidenkial recommendatEcns a r e n o t born i n t h e mind of
a s p s c i f i c Pxesident at: a
- on a s p e c i f i c day.
They've been
kicked around i n khe c a m t r y , i n the coLleges, i n organizations,
m m g i n d i v i d u a b , sometimes f o r a generation before they ever
@cmc
he-.
Aard ia khe Congress tm, often.
SEVARZID:
ALBERT:
-urd
i n the Congress ofken.
For i n s t a n c e
- l e t me
give you a l i t t l e s p e c i f i c .
One of
- one of
t h e great accomplishments
- ghe President
M m e l f tokd m e t h i s
- of
t h e f i r s t session of $he 89th
- L i e Great Society Congress - was
%B&h
Canngr@ss
- of
the
the o k h i n a t i o n
of the national o r i g i n s quota system i n Pmmigratlon.
How the Bnesident r i g h t f u l l y g e t s c r e d i t for helping put
proposal i n t o e f f e c t .
But i f you go back t o 1928 and
glnd 2he 2irs3: spmch t h a t John McCormacls, now Speaker, made
i n the House o f Representatives, it was on the n a t i o n a l oxigins
gwka s y s t M and c r i k i c i a i t q it
o l d enough to vote.
- made before
Lyndon Johnson w a s
So d i d t h a t o r i g i n a t e with Johhn McCormack
oz d i d it o r i g i n a t e w i t h President Johnson?
-
tt probably o r i -
gbnated somewhere e l s e .
r&gislation is t h e r e s u l t of raati0na-Z growth, of discussion
among a l l s o r t s of people f o r a long period of time.
It's the
r e s u l t of co-af2ort on t h e p a r t of t h e President, t h e Congress,
and many, many people across the country.
SEVABEID:
Senator plansfrela, do you think the-=-sf
the-._
Cangress is c h i e f l y t o h a m n i s e o r t o c o ~ d k i i a t e ,a s Senator
Dirksen has emphasized...
SEXATOR MIKE MANSFIELD:
Congress has turned our t o be.
W e l l k h i s i s what the r o l e af
dnd I agree w i t h t h e remarks
made by Senator Dirksen and Congressman a l b e e .
But, mfort-mate9y, over the past f o u r of f i v e decades, I
sink khat the Congress has bean giving up i t s leadership r o l e a
Wd tjaaC r o l e has been kitken over by %%a
Pzesfdnet o f the United
States, whether h e happenad ko be a RepbLfaara
Pma%erial,
or a Democrat is
And f blame the Congress for what
Eespect.
it,
bas clone 4.n that
Because we have acquiesced in giving up the pcwers
which should be rightly ours, under the Const'&tution, We have
came to depend rcoxe and more upon Me Executive.
And I think
it'a a most serious mistake.
Pt is my hope that a t long laat, the Senate a t l e a s t , will.
wake up fm its rrteponsfbihities, recognize that leadership should
cane fsam the Congxeas
as a whole on m a y questions.
And that
FPlitLative will once again be undertaken by us.
-2:
REPRESENTATIVE GEBA&D R. FORD:
M r . Sevweid, I think s o w
intxwesiting devalopments are transpiring r i g h t n w .
We're seeing, oartainly i n the senateV%nd t o some degree
in tho House, a greater desire an tfie part of Ule l e g i s l a t i v e
branch t o participate in foreign policy and military decisions.
Thla, f Z1Paf.ok,
-
is wholesme.
- -.- -._
Many people have f e l t that the House of ~epresenatives,
- -
I
_
_
p.sr@-f@ularlytshouEd not participate i n the execution or the
implememtatian of foraiqn policy.
foreign aid pr.3grrm
But since the advent of
- about 20 yeana ago - #e
me
House of Represen-
t a t f v e ~ ,j: UlLnlc properly so, has partricipa'ced ko a greater degree
iil
famlgn pol2 3 detezmfnatlon.
Primarily because the foceign
:&d p r r q r a n inw1wes substaatial amaunts of b l l a r s .
momy g e t s in-mlved
And whenever
in bow you execute or Bww you implement foreign
p ~ i i qthe
~ idawe of Represonativas, because of its c o n s t i t u t i o n a l
CoaUoI. .:vex:
xhb,
%he Ewds in the first instance, must have a role in
we da or bow we do i t .
hirq spent annually under the foreign aid program, arid with t h e
pmsidazata
- whether t h e y ' r e
DP?mocmt o r Republican sayfng t h a t
a foreign a i d program is an in-gral
of o u r policy-mashing
pa&
overmeas, the How= of Representatives has, and I think w i l l
continue t o be a f a c t o r i n what we do overseas.
SEVAREID:
R e U i s this power of the purse really e f f e c t i v e ,
.ma@ a thing l i k e a w a r s t a r t s , Senatop Dirksen? Can you r e a l l y
-
deny th9 President what he asks i n cluch a c r i d s ?
BIZWEN:
i Q
when you have a war a n your bands, then, of course.
And there
are some reasons f o r it.
the President
i s commander i n C h i e f by
becomes d k f f i c r t l t indeed.
In lthe i i m t place,
vireiaa at! the Constitution.
And under h i s j u r i s d i c t i o n are t h e
seine: Chiefs, who a r e responsible f o r strakegy
- and taatics,
Ule s b w of our astabliehment, i n making war.
mu&
- -- _.
And
--SO-----_
i n f o m a t i o n a t the hands and f i n g e r t i p s of t h e President
w-a wou3.d o t h e m i s e n o t g e t , except i n an e x t r a c t i v e way
by qrxbzfng thcse i n uniform as to t h e i r objectives and purposes.
But, eascnkiaJAy, as Commander i n Chief, he is responsible
fcx m n d w t of our .Amy, our NavyPy,our A i r Force.
"&at
And as such,
Lsadarship very n a t u r a l l y g r a v i t a t e s i n t o h i s hands.
SE1rA;IEID:
!&&ismway ba&
You knaw
*ere wa$ a letter from Jefferson t o
in 1789, in which Jefferson s a i d , 'The tyranny
of the l e g i s l a k a r e i s t h e most, f o d d a b l e dread a t p r e s e n t and
r i i Z be
m
%or many years,
That the executive will come i n its
but i t %iTf. be a t a PmoCe period,"
-
t o t h a t remote period, 60 any of you think?
Have w e
Is
ehrtm anythinq t y r a n n i c a l i n Chis power of the executive, Senator
Mans f ir ld?
Not; tyrannlcdl, Eric,
MANSFIELD:
wme to t h a t h p a a s e
But I think U l a t w e have
- again I go back to what I s a i d previously -
X Wnlr, P t ' s the Congress' f a u l t t h a t the power which has accumu-
lated to t h e O f f i c e of the Presiclency i s now incorporated i n t h a t
-
i n st i r u t i o n .
And I would hope that we would bring about a b e t t e r caoperat i o n between the kwo, rather &%an a c o n t i n d n g widening of the g u l f ,
w h i c h seems to be evident at the present time.
W e l l you gentleanen have a l l watched She Caqzess
SEVAREID:
- a couple of you i n both A s u a e ~ -both chambers.
f o r a Tong tirae now
Hy
i~lyckvn
--------here q u i t e
impressions over klie years, and I've been around
- I n regard t o t h e quality of t h e men
a w h i l e ,too,tm t h e outside
h a e Congcess
- t h e i r education,
i s &st this increases.
CP
not.
their t r a i n i n g
-
my impression
Whether t h e power of CPIe Congress decreases
-Am 4m wrong i n t h i ~ 7 I t
seems to mcr kbey 're bbeter
educseed on a whole.
ALBERT:
men.
mat w e have, on khe average, younger
3 think, E r i c ,
I thick. it%
SEVAFSTD:
shown up i n my sewice.
You do?
.%BERT : And we have better-educated men. We have mre
mA1eqe men.
3ut may I make one c o m n k ?
Zeniztonr MmsTleld has s a i d .
Because I have, I think, a s l i g h t
axea of d i s a g s e e m n t r i k h him.
what i t ' s wortil.
And on what my f i n e frAend
And I wan* to throw
it o u t f o r
-
Re thinks the Senate and t h e House and p a r t i c u l a r l y t h e
Senate should a s s e r t i t s e l f i n leadership i n foreign policy more
%ban it
is
- than they a r e doing now.
W e l l I think t h e r e ' s something t o be s a i d f a r t h a t .
And
I agzee with what Gary Ford s a i d about it.
But l e t rae *row
I f i t becmes known around t h e
W i s out.
world t h a t the Congress o r e i t h e r house of Congress i s the policymaking body af We nation i n foreign policy
- and
I don't think
4 - t h e r s f ehem can be f o r reasons &a.& Senator Dixksen s t a t e d ,
p a r t i c u ~ a r l yi n t i m e of war
- but
i f i t s h o U happen, then we've
a l l got to drop every parochial notion we've g o t o r we'll destroy
LIe image of America around the world,
We c a n ' t be f o r
..-
a liberal foreign policy and a conservative
$crmestic palicy or v i c e versa,
W e wetbe f o r closing down We
war i n V i e i m a m anhE a g a i n s t c i v i l r i g h t s a t the same t i m e .
-A
-.
--- _
0s: if w e do and i f it i s thought around t h e world that t h e
w n g r e s s sreaPly makes t h e policy, weire going t o have a blurred
imge of PamerFca i n o t h e r nations.
If
seams to :o t h a t we need one person wbc* speaks f o r the
nation i n major foreign policy.
make
s;tatat?1elats
A
person who i s i n a position t o
i& a l l f i a l a e t h a t w i l l give Pmerica a good image
wherevex his voice i s beard.
,MANSFIELD:
miti cansi&rably,
ALBERT:
Xell, P think t h a t you have strekched what I
Carl.
Not e s s e n t i a l l y , Mike.
WSPIEED:
1 understand &tat.
B a t if 1 understand you
eox;rectP~,YOU believe in the pr@don&nantand paramount power o f
the\ Breaidenmj,
-9-
'What I am saying i s titat the Congress ought to be
M e n i n on a consultative b a s i s .
That we have our r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s ,
t e ~t,o our dlistricts and our states.
And a s f a r a s I'm concerned, my primary responsibility is
as a senator from the S t a t e of Montana.
else.
That overrides everything
P recogaize the P r e s i d e n t ' s r e s p o n s i b i l i t y , h i s f i n a l
responsibility,
But I t h i n k a l s o t h a t the Congress ought t o be
c a l l e d i n , tho appsapriate committees shmld be consulted.
And
i n t h a t way bring &out t h i s cooperation which I t r i e d t o stress
previously
between t h e executive euzd the 1 ~ ; & l a t i v e branches.
Well, if ?&at i s your idea, Mike, I agree w i t h you,
ALBERT:
FORD:
I would say, E r i c , t h a t the"2espective roles of M e
douse and Senate, vis-a-vis
"&es.
khe
P m s i d e n t , ebb and flow w i t h the
P t h i n k i n 1965 and 1966, I have s a i d on s e v e r a l occasions
that maybe the Pzeoident was too daminant a& -- -Congress was n o t
---
--
exercising i t s responsibilities.
B-sk if ytm go back t o the Civil W a r era, y o u ' l l
Congress, Mnder Andirew Johnson, was allegedly
probably preves it
- much too dominant.
- and
---_
-
find tht t h e
I think h i s t o r y
And the executive branch
of khe government w a s r a t h e r supine.
Ea although w e see now, perhaps for reasons pelated t o the
war 3.3 T'Jibtmm, the executive branch holding Ule r e i n s perh&ps
a bik tea much, Z t h i ~ Ain W e khe Jlnterican people, +hsouyh
meir
eXeebd mpreseakatives, w i l l insist and demand that the Congress
W.e a nose Por+&;hl-ight and dominant mXe.
SEWJBID:
m s ~ % t @05
~
Sell, you knm, gen%Lemen, i f
-I
suppose a s
executive power goes along w i t h khra nakure and temper-
amant. of the individual in the White House, depending on h w stzong
aad f o r c e f u l h e is,
we've h a ? a number of those. Tlrilough by no means,
were all Presidwits of such a nature,
I s it war that does t h i s ?
Take today, f o r exampfer Seaator Dirksen, i s it the personal
damefulness of %is
Pcesitfent today or
3.8
the war?
What i s it
that's caused an srxtra flow of power down a t the o t h e r end a%
tam2
DIRKSEN:
No,
let m e make bfo or three g e n e r a l observations,
Ooing back t o your earlier question.
P
It's no accident that the l e g i s l a t i v e branch was created.
Under T i t l e I of t h e Constitution, it was w.6 foremost.
President
Monroe once observed that it i s a e v e q seat of power.
And i f I t
is khe seat of power, aE course that power can be and should be
e-serc8sed.
- - -B u t as %hecountzy qsows and moze and mre functions
--
----___
are taken over the f e d e r a l government, the power o f p u t t i n g them
into e f f e a t has t o be delegated.
And
of couzae, when you delegate, you p u t in %?he hands o f
kkxe president t h s pawer, so to speak, to i s s u e the maLe;s and
the reguZat$onzs and R;o select the peVsomelwho will, a r t f c u l a t e
rzear-greaka in o%km days,
It's f a i r t o assume %hatClay, Calhoune,
Today thay're not i n t m s i o n s and w e don't c a l l them
%ntmsions, They a r e v e r i t i e s of l i f e .
a xepresentative gov9mment.
And it 1s a f r e e country
-
Pad t h e bosses back home want an
accounting every so often, e i t h e r by corning down here o r by
sending yo% a l a t t e r nr q-kt:ing you back home f a r a meetinq or a
eonvemation
And
-at
.
so there ie l i t t l e t i n e t o do the kfnd of scho2arly work
they did i n itnothex generation.
SEVARErD:
Is a l l this e x t r a work, from. tine f a s t c ~ ~ f n u n i c a t f o n s
and the growth OF te populatian i n your disi3?ict% and s t a t e s
it jwaa8 a p r o l i f e r a t i o n of d e t a i l
OX
- is
1s something of g r e a t e r sub""
stance?
DfRKSEN:
ALBERT:
wic&
There's general grawth..,
Z% ssray it was a cumbPnation
of a l l .
-
i.nterest t o what Everett had t o say.
.
.
And I l i s t e n e d
-
Ea my opinion, t h e day of the i n d i v i d u a l i s t i n e i t h e r house
g
o
W e have
weaf &e
s a m way.
- we're
becoming a s e t of Organization men.
W
e
same kind or^ suit, t h e same s t y l e , we comb our h a i r t h e
-9nd we'm becoming last i n the conglomeration of *e
i n s r i t n % i o n which used to produce outstanding individuals.
For example, w e have no more orators today, unless it's
Werekt Dirksen of T i l i n o i s ,
We axe pressed for t i m e ,
are incxctasing
portadS ad Son.
"io
tuie
H e i s t h e l a s t of h i s breed.
The complexities of government
papulation, r a p i d i t y r and c~m~tunications
and
Ouu: s a i l has incmaseb tremndously.
We have
cmsideh so many problems, thztra r e a l l y can't consider any
of &en well unless we concentrate i n ane partbulaz area.
&and
i t i s a changed situation.
I t f s i n l i n e vi.th hhe
is-
times.
Oar membership are better educated,
B u t t h a t doesu't
mean that they're b e t t e r congressmen or senators today than they
weze 50 or 60 years ago when you had giants l i k e Tom Walsh cf
Montana, l e t t + say; LaFollette of Wisconsin, Baxr of C a l i f o r d a
and the l i k e .
FORD:
Let ne take a s p e c i f i c , i f I could, M r . Sevareid
The consideration of Yne f@tleralbudget;
20 years ago, t h o f e d e r a l budqet was
When I came hem abmt
n rather small amount
w n e y aofipared t o what we're spending today.
4
-
'Pllld it was r e l ~ t i v e l y
easy f o r members of khe committee on appropriations t o go thmugh
.,-
kbe & t a i l .
But today, with khe g r e a t l y expanded expenditures and the
Anv~Xvems~t
of khe federal government i n many, many areas that
were never thought of about 20 years a30, just the mere d e t a i l
--_ --
o f going amrough a brsdqet document by t h e committee on a apprXq&-
skims and ndks Pndiviciual mlrabers i s a monumental task.
f think we%@ got to find e way
r~iao~dd
be done
-
and I'm not s u r e how it
- for the Congress t o b e t t e r and more adequately
~ o n s i d e zW i s tremendous involvment of our government i n the
clay- to-day l i v e s of people.
SEVAREXD:
Gentlemen, we're going t o pause now, about ten
SWJAREXD:
Gentlema, this co?mtbyb by most accounts, i s i n
severe d i f f i c u l t i e s
- on t h i s war t h a t no one seema q u i t e -
-
-14b m ? s quite how t o end, publXc order and justice a t h a m , on t h e
world e i n m c i a h f r o n t it i s g i v i n g some s i g n s of breaking.
Congress is going t o help us o u t of this
- a l l these areast of
qufahand, where ought it to c o n c e n t r a t e now?
order of business r k g h t now?
ALBERT:
what's its
first
Is i t t a x e s , r l r . A l b e r t , o r what?
Well, I should k h h k t h a t taxes is an a r e a i n which
we s h o u l d n ' t work fnunediataly.
I do n o t bel.ieve t h a t we'we had
a w a r in recent yearsr or in any
&sea.
If
He cut b x e s
- al my
tine, without raising
in 1964, wasn't i t , t o
of abovt
t h i s tune
-
23 ot gous billion da.2larr?, based a n o u r r e n t hcbmes.
0x1 kop sf t h a t w e ' v e loaded a two b i l l i o n d a l l a r a aonth
w a r , whP& probably i.r increasfnrj i n east;*- wci'vc Loaded about
e i g h t b i l l i w dollars extra fox education; about two b i l l i o n d o l l a r s
f o r the anti-poverty prsgran.
expcenditwes
And
Ln
a e
.
.Zn my
So we have a l l kinds of arlditfonal
-.
-
-.
I
-
1
-
judgement, we shoufd enact a tax bi f 1. YfieUrer-4.-
f o m in wh;tch %he President has reconmended or not, X think is
br~rmaterial. P think we ~ u g h tto atart paying fog ehingrs as w e buy
thljra,
Ox w e 0uqh.t
to atart r a i s i n g our money as we expend i t , as
comnitkeerls of w e C43nrjxass are prepared to do theirs.
5EYaXF:lD: ,Axe we going do get a. t a x b i l l , Mx. Ford?
FORD:
I think i t ' s a l i t t l e premature, E r i c .
I suspect
w i t h %a ~ieevaluationtinat t h e P r e s i d e n t is undertaking a t t h e
p r e s e n t t h e of where we should go and h w w e should accomplish
ouz &ge~tIvei n Vietnam w i l l be a very d e w m i n i n g faotor.
If the President rec-nds
t o the Congress an i n c r e a s e
h m i l i t a r y manpower i n Vstetnam, which means a rather s u b s t a n t i a l
increase i n d o l l a r s from a e f e d e r a l t r e a s u q , tiren I think t h e
Gagxess w i l l have tzo do one of two t h i n g s and maybe both.
me, we ' l f have t o make t h e kind of r a u c t i o n s t h a t Congress-
m a Aabeht,
i n d i c a t e d t o g e t us back t o an a u s t e r i t y cireumpitance
.,-
a t kame.
hrad sePtcainly w e ' l l have t o consider more a c t i v e l y than w e
the p o s s i b i l i t y of a t a x i&re:ease.
are st the preosnt
t h e count* a--erity
- - _ _-- -
like wage and p r i c e c o n t r o l s ana
no a u s t e r i t y wikhout pain.
Be% g o h g back, for a
merit,
t o fits whole matter and looking
at Sit: Erm the high ground of one of * e
primary o b j e c t i v e s of
governs& is always t o maintain its solvency.
For i f it f a i l s
to do so2 ik jeoporeiees the value of i t s own money.
And it
jeopcrr3lzes the confidence that n o t only khe c i a z e n s b u t o t h e r
mmWde@ must have in :the government of a country.
a? stake kight now
- is the
Thati s what's
lack of confidence on .the p a r t of t h e
cenkraE bank&~.s3.a Europe that we are w i l l i n g and have the capacity
for facing up k c *&a problems thaf, zre before us.
5Qa.e:
we're confronted with a t the moment, i s the prospect
a% continuing d e f i c i t s .
And two i n a row t h a t may exceed 20
We11 JC1m not q u i t e sure how yougre goPfig t o do itwi.thout
e
m -1
danger,
Eind so t o xeduae W e e b f i c i t s , eikher t h e r e
*as to be a sharp roductAon i n s p e n d i q or
bS1X
02
Nth.
And I Wnk the
them has
ta be
a atax
Cangress is presently looking at a
package b i l l , s o to speak, khatwi;ll c a U 90s: a c e i l i n g on
expenditwes, a ceifing on new ok&Sgational authority, and then
aE c w s e a tax bill and a eeducrion tn
nek rwexditures, as
dfstinguiohed froin appropriations.
And that is a zcaal chellmqe today.
AZTd pa*iaularly
so,
left d l 1 probably be distributed i n payment of our cbmn\ittmnt?i
policy, have any of you seen any r e a l l y concrete a l t e r n a t i v e s
proposed t o bring a peace a b i t c l o s e r ?
MANSFIELD: Y e s r I think I have.
Senator Mansfield?
There have been many proposals
advanced, by General de Gaulle and Prince Nosodom Sihanouk ever t h r e e
years ago f o r a guaranteed n e u t r a l i z a t i o n of a l l of Southeast A s i a .
We%
had t h e proposals by U Thant r e c e n t l y which c a l l e d f o r
a suspennilion of the bombing as a means of g e t t i n g t o the n e g o t i a t i n g
table.
We've got the John Sheman Cooper propoaal which would s t o p
.c
the bombing i n t h e North, confine it t o t h e 17th p a r a l l e l and t h e Ho
C h i Mink t r a i l s conning down through Lacs,--thereby concantrating and
cunaolfdating our a c t i v i t i e s i n the nation which w e a r e supposed
bo be defending i n t h e name of i n t e g r i t y and independence.
These alternatives have been brushed aside.
Not much i n
\
the way of a c t u a l consideration has been given o them, ex-pt
---
i n the p r i v a t e councils of khe government.
And I would hope t h a t i n s t e a d of r a i s i n g t h e question, " W e l l ,
what a l t e r n a t i v e s do y ~ have,w
u
t h a t some of t h e s e a l t e r n a t i v e s
which h a w been advanced would be taken by t h e hand and given
the s e r i o u s consideration they deserve.
~ r a n k l y , I am i n favor of a stopping of t h e bombing of No-
Vietnam, whzther o r n o t it leads t o negotiatian.
favor of it because it is
- one of
But Xqm i n
t h e reaaons I am i n favor
of i'e is t h a t we have been t o l d by many of our f r i e n d s , a s w e l l
as an the b a s i s o i r e p o r t s fran Hanoi, t h a t t h i s would be the
first s t e p towar& the n e g o t i a t i n g table.
Secondly, I'm i n favos of it because I thid we ought to
c43nsentrate and cbnsolidale our a c t i v i t i e s t o South Vietnam.
?md
g h e what men w e have there t h e f u l l e s t possible support.
The berrnbing of the North has f a i l e d to achieve p r a c t i c a l l y
every objective of the three o r four it set out to a t t a i n .
Instead
ef B%e i n f i l t r a t i o n k i n g reduced from 1500 a month i n 1965, it
has reachad 5500 t o 6,000 i n '67.
And
i n January of t h i s year,
i t reached a toea1 of 20,000 i n one month.
-
The second objective was to bring R a n d t o the conference
I think Hanoi i s perhaps further auay than ever, because
table.
of the bombing.
The t h i r d objective was to give s t a b i l i t y and r a i s e t h e
morale of both the government and the people @? South Vietnam.
-
-A--.
I don't think that's been done.
The fa1PlCth objective w a s to hurt Vietnam.
That's been
Clone, but i t ' s upped t h e ante and increased khe c o s t of the
was.
S
~
~
I
DGentlamen,
:
do any of the rest of you
feel naw
that ~csgardlaseof w h e t h e r are could have done things d i f f e r e n t l y
j-A
tenus bf g e t t i n g peace negotiations, so much of which depends
on :3aai1s reaction, do any of you feel & a t the actual conduct
ak the war
-
the stzadcegy, t h e t a c t i c s
- has been wrong?
Mr.
Ford, do you feel t h a t ?
FORD:
M a t I thF*
I have, of course, been very fotthsfght i n saying
our national in-rest,
is i m l v e d i n being successful
.n?i~p%nam.
On
the o t h e r hand, I have been crikical of thy strategy or
&he conduct of khe war.
I f e e l t h a t we have approached the matter
d U t a r i 1 y i n a method of gradulisrn which is conktary t o a11 good
d l i t a r y strategy historically.
Md I think, as a consequence,
we haven't gottan the r e s u l t s t h a t we should have achieved over
the P a s t three years.
Bnd I hope a d t r u s t #at when the President submits t o
tAe Congress h i s reevaluation, which I hope w i l l acme soon, t h a t
h e w i l l t a l l US exactly where w e are and hrrw w e ought t o go about
l i t to be successful in Vietnam.
BEVAREID:
ALBERT;
PIP.
...to
Including h m r e balanced military
Albert.
whae Gerry Ford has said.
I don't agree w i t h
every pazticu3.a~ of what he @aid. I c e ~ t a i n x yfhd-elf
-- more
-
--- _
in agreement with him than I do wikh nsy good friend and counterpax&
- one
of the f i n e s t men i n America
- Senator Mansfield.
Whether bombing has had
W e tried jwt stopping bombing.
m y sEfecrC: or not, stopping bombing hasn't had any e f f e c t W a d
b r i a g b g Hanoi ko toe henfesasce table.
And w e have no assurance
fa:m m y ze2iable soeucce, t h a t I've heard anything about, t h a t it
wiL1.
So 4: won%d not s t o p anything.
Eve~ytinaawe l e t up, we l e t
I think we're SF. &%is w s r t o win it.
I t h i n k we're i n it
&a tzy r c avoid alao World War 1x1 either by provoking it or by
getting aut oE t??eway so t h a t the Com&ss t a r t it.
I...
w i l l be encouraged
DIRKSEN:
N o t necessarily.
It must n e t be forgotten that
HeiesQrmoreland has been out t h e r e f o r more than feur years.
a longer duty tour
That's
- a c t i v e duty t o u r - than i s ever assigned t o
a commanding general.
And he must be t i x e d and t i r e d i n mind.
Anrd ahould came back.
Because you've got other capable generals
who can carry on and probably carry o u t Ula same type of strategy.
But looking a23 t h a t whole picture, you j u s t examine soma
alternatives.
&e
Do we r e t r e a t 7
I f w e do, then you've got t o ask
other questions t h a t naturally follout.
What about our prestige?
And sacondly, what about t h e
Vietnam and then into Malaya and then ink0 Indonesia.
winhibitrated march of Communism?
Because it'll have t o move through
And ultimately
enrompass a l l of Southeast Asia.
P thimk w e ' r e poor geography students, because i f w e paid
mas, a t t e n t i o n t o it, we would discover that from &-losest
--
-
--
-- -
eB-, a$? Indanesia t o the P h i l l i p i a e X s l a u l d s is only t e n miles by
water.
And already, khir so-called Hux, which i s t h e communist
oukfib: i n the Phillipines, are becaming a c t i v e a l l over again.
TheyE& thought
Apld
Llep'd p u t art end t o and it.
But it begins now,
X don't t h i n k m a t you can divide o r separate what i a
g o h g an in Viafaam from t h e overriding fact t h a t this embraces
a l s o the
~ O I R I R U I ~ march.
~S~
So we can r e t r e a t and put our p r e s t i g e on the l i n e and
b c a a e papex t i g e r s i n the eyes of a l l Saukheast-Asia.
Secondly, we can embrace khe so-called General Gavin idea
of setting up a m c enclaves.
beeme *e
sitting &cks.
1% w+ dlo, I +Air&our troops would
So those ale two t h a t P eort of rule out.
The third is, o f courser to give up bombing and see whether
*at,
for a sustained period, w i l l have any e f f e c t i n bringing them
tc the negotiation table.
There is the danger, however, t o our
troops who are out there.
When the word went out long ago, when w e were engaged i n Korea,
that w e had settled for the 38th Parallel, we had a b r i l l i a n t drive
g d n g at &e t h e .
And t h a t drive began t o bLunP: right a t t h a t point,
as this rumor became clonrmon newa. And l a t e r
eta
turned out t o be sometkldng
more than a mmolc. But: t h e net result: was thak w e added 90,000 to
?3is a ~ l a a l t yl i s t and expanded khat war b y a period of two years before
we got through.
Those are the dangers.
And I *ink
Conqresaman Aabert puts
h9e ffngea: on i t when h e says, s i t t i n g here 12,000 -away,
-
itD@
a f f i e u l t indeed Co plot strategy and tactics and t e l l pre-
--
\
220
w a i t a waek, ten d a y s , t o s e e i f t h e y ' l l come and negotiate.
And i f they don't, naybe t h i s c r e d i b i l i t y question here about
OW
willingness to n e g o t i a t e might be ended,
Is there something
we c a n ' t do of a simple k i d ?
W e l l , EPIC, a proposal of *at
PIANSFIELD:
advanced from time t o t i m e .
n a t u r e has been
But suppose it was p u t i n t o operation
and suppose U T h m t and Seczetary Rusk wen
t o Rangoon and made
an cuylouncement ahead of kdme, waited f o r the appropriate week
.--
o r t e n days end nothing happened.
Th@n P thfnk the end r e s u l t might w e l l be worse.
Became
3C do n o t believe t h a t the generals a r e the,ones who a r e
shaa9bd be a b l e t o conduct a war in a l l its e n t i r e t y ,
- who
Just the
cppesitetBo
Bemuse t h i s i s a goveznment run by c&~ili;ans. Bnd
civilbarn a o n t ~ o Pm u s t always be paramBad *is
on the b a s i s of
and dominant.
s i t u a t i o n Pn Vietnam w i l l mot be won, -iiio&a6@1,
at
m i l i t a u r y victory.
delineate what v i c t o r y means.
And I defy anyone t o r e a l l y
B u t w i l l be won, I %ink, on a
p o l i t i c a P settlement, itn some way, same fashion, somehow.
Just how, no one can f o r e t e l l a t t h i s t i m e .
Bat bemi we're S a U i n g about an i n c r e a s e i n tche s i a e of our
%*mp%
ranging anywhere % r m 30,000 t o 200,600 & m e
the 5 2 5 , 0 0 0
?.Ld;b,aemset f o x mid--1968.
15 myone ;Imaessze of the f a c t t h a t the V i s e Ceng and t h e
VPeba?a@ss can match us and mom than oaatch us3
--
Doas anyone ever stop t o think how much i t ' s going t o
coat ua, not, only i n additional manpower and treasure, but a l a o
that i f this war i s made more open-ended and expanded, the possi-
b l l f t y of a confrontation not only i n Southeast M i a w i t h China
but under c e r t a i n oirclaetances even i n Northeast Asia with Korea
3.4 a rash o r an overt a c t i s undertaken there?
These am a l l matters w e ought t o think through.
easy to say that, "Either win or g e t out."
And i t ' s
No one I know o f , and
-
c e r t a i n l y no one around this t a b l e is advocating withdrawal o r
surrender.
But it i s time t o face up t o the realitias of the
situnkion and take i n t o consideration, a s - I know w e a l l do, t h e
taevlfx of a policy made back h e r e being carried o u t by young men
out acre.
FORD:
Well, Mr. Sevareid..
SEVAREID:
FORD:
you anas&
.
M3. Ford.
I think ehexees considerable merit t o the suggestion
a few moments ago.
Because I think ft w i l l show our good
%dth
dramatically t o t h e world.
And
i f it does prove o u t t h a t they w i l l not coma and s i t
&am and negotiate, then I think w e ' r e i n a position much Like
fbwaar President Eisenhower was a t the time of Korea.
Where we
had negotiated, ae I recallr almost two years without any d i s cexmible xesults* ?md f i n a l l y , according to t h e history t h a t
S've mad, word was spread to the North Koreans and t o the
Chinese t h a t , "You e i t h e r s i t down and negotiate i n a meaningful
I t h i n k ehEs may w e l l be the t i m e where w e have t o take
t h e &~naonatic s t e p 'chat you%e suggested i n order t o prove to t h e
world our good falkh. And a f t e r that, w e ' l l have t o t a k e those
steps, undar &e c o n t r o l of t h e President, where we can be suce a s e f u l I n VSetnam.
And one
more observation, i f I could.
We've heard a l o t
of platitucllnsue recomendations from various p r e s i d e n t i a l candidakes abouk t h e problems i n V i e t n a m .
aore s p e c i f i c .
I wish they would become
Because I think it would be helpful i n this
.--
tualq~ler.
SEVAIUSID:
- we
maw
Well, gentlemen, i f
- hypothetically
j u s t go on, the war staggering
631s
speaking here
i t ' s been going f o r a
long t h e , Che casualties mounting, t h i a country dividing emotionally,
i n t e % l e c t d l y , p o l i t i c a l l y what Pa going t o happen p o l i t i c a l l y i n
khBa sornrtxy?
Mr. Albert, do you think it pos~ib3.ethat f o r t h e
- the f i r s t thK
1
-
Pfksk k
h
a P r e s i d e n t p r e s i a r r g over a major war
i n sup h i s t o r y
ALBERT:
b
l
- might be dismissed from o f f i c e ?
W a l l , I d o n ' t think i t ' s l i k e l y .
I t ' s always p o s s i b l e t h a t any Preajdient can
defeatad a t nny the,
- might be
But I don't think a President should m a s u r e
h i s hrreepcmsibilitiea i n terns of h i s reelection.
ia
I think i t ' s
1 think t h e job
em, too importank.
I don04: t h l n k any P r e s i d e n t ever has.
I don't think Hooves
did.
SEWID:
.ALBERT:
&d
YOU don't think Mr. johnson...
When a e Depression was r i g h t around the corner.
X & m o t &ink P m s i d e n t Johnson is.
-
W E R T B T : I agsce
I can't see, on our side, any
with that.
chance a f anybody getting the nomination, despite of hew big a
9PgPais we might have, except President Johnson.
FORD:
Cettainly
- more certain i n the RepubLican picture
41* the m e n t , &an i t was
a Pew we*
ago.
And on the other
Lainad, 9: think k t ' s a l i t t l e Zess certain on the mmacratic
siae.
SWAREXD:
Wsll, gentlemen, according to. the p o l l s that I
cans read, whatever theyt re worth, Mr. ~ennedy"
fs running ahead i n
ppu8aa estimation
- a bPt ahea.d of the President
a t the mcmaent.
-
M r . Rwckefellar is running ahead..
WERT:
%n
&"id
.
May I coanmenk on the edltati.al
-
I mean the a r t i c l e
Nashingtm Postc w h i c h X Xink comment& on the l a s t edition
of the: Psesident: and put Governor RockefelLer s l i u h t l y ahead of
- sorewhat ahead of
ivLr,
Nixon.
Is there something wrong with out
system that p o p h a r e n ' t going t o get quite that choice a t the
eonveatdons.
We
WSFIELD:
have about 20 seconds, Senator MansfieLd.
A
lot of people seem t o think so. But we have
to mcogniae the p f i t i c a l f a c t s of l i f e .
That it's delegates
fm the! skates wha nominate a Psesiaent and not the people,
exeep'r. in primaries. And there are not enough primaries.
SEVBPPEIB:
Of
-
course, it's not necessarily true that the
popular majority at m y one timo, is e s s e n t i a l l y r l q h t i n its
Well, our tine i s up.
X want to sank a l l of you f o r
joining us on t h i s 20th jimbversary program for Capitax Cloakrcom.
ANNWHCER:
You have been lPaten.&ng t o the 1004th meeting
FOP t h i s 20th Aniversary broadcast, c u r guests were:
Senate
Dmoc~zrticMadex Mike Manafield of Hon&%aaISenate Republican
Braduceed blp Ellen Wadley, Capital CLoakztxm o r i g i n a t e s i n Washington,
D.C.
and is a recorded prodaction of
CSS
news on the CBS Radio