np 205 info Ever wonder exactly what it takes to make
Transcription
np 205 info Ever wonder exactly what it takes to make
WheelinDixie.com > Technical > Tech Articles and Links np 205 info np 205 info Ever wonder exactly what it takes to make this fit that, but you dont have all the parts, nor know what those parts look like? I figured i could start a thread that might help some of us define what we need. If you find that I have omitted something, AND I HAVE!, feel free to post, as long as it is accurate information. Lets make this as complete as we can to help those guys that dont have these answers yet. I stole pictures from where I could, so give some credit to the people that posted these to begin with: Offroad Design, off their Np205 page... Autosource ----7" input------- 10" input------- 4spd input-----th350 input those are input shafts for the 205 If you have the 10 inch np205 long input, it will stick out of the transfer case towards the transmission about 4 1/2 inches. there is an adapter that will allow the th400 to bolt directly to this using the np208 output shaft. this adapter is about 4 1/2 inches thick. it is for use with the LONG input. *the adapter shown is for the np205, you can tell because the shifters on the passengers side, not the drivers side... but still can be used for the np208/np241 if it has a passengers side drop. if you have the 7 inch input, it will stick out of the transfer case towards the transmission 1 1/2 inches. ok, those are the transfer case parts, now for the th400 output shafts... the short 1 1/4 inch stickout th400 output shaft is on the left. its for an NP203 to the right is an NP208 shaft for th400. Click this bar to view the full image. thats a photo of a standard th400 2wd output shaft, also the same shaft used for the racetrack style th400-np205 output shaft. ok.. how does all this relate? to make this work, you have to figure out which case youre using. if you have a racetrack case, like the one pictured below.... you need a racetrack adapter, and a standard shaft... Click this bar to view the full image. you get the racetrack adapter, and youre there... sounds easy as pie, eh? If you have a round faced case, you can use the short adapter, the th400-np208 output shaft, and put it all together.... and, as you can see, it will even turn a ford NP205 into a usable unit behind a th400. The NP205 can be had in many different forms. If you have a round pattern 205 and want to put it behind a 32spline 465 this is the adapter you will need. They came factory but aren't always easy to find. I bielieve you can use a 32spline 465 from in front of a 208 too with this adapter. If you want to make a doubler using this setup you will need a 32spline 203 from behind a th400,a 465/208 adapter,and will need to re-drill the face on the 203. You can certainly use the NV4500 GM 32 spline 4x4 output shaft in the Dodge transmission. This allows for GM or Dodge NV4500 direct coupling to driver drop NP205. for the shorty input shaft, go to www.tbtrans.com and go to their transfer case page. 97 bucks VSS equipped 205's were available in 90 & 91, as for applications I think they would only have been in crew cabs. Question: Do 10spline 205's require machining to install a 32spline input? Yes, they do. The input bearing is smaller on the 10spl, so you're going to have to have that hole reamed out to fit the 32spl input bearing. Here's a good pic from ORD's web site showing the difference between the two bearings: I am trying to see if a 27 spline NP205 and factory adapter from a TH350 will fit a 700R4 with 27 spline? not without: 1. a custom output shaft b. an extension on the output shaft of the trans to make up the space. the shaft is the shorter difference. the 32 spline output for the sm465 required a roundfaced case, a long adapter, and a long input shaft for the 205. these parts are shown in a previous post on this thread. TH400 to NP205 using the racetrack adapter requires the stock 2wd short boltyoke/slip yoke shaft. You can just remove the tailshaft housing off a 2wd short shaft trans, and install it in front of a racetrack adapter and np205. NP208/np241s required a shorter output shaft, with about 3 inches of stickout from the th400. *(If youre using the Ford np205 transfer case, you can use this shaft and adapter with the short th400 input and make it work) NP203s are.... well.... np203s. doubler parts. SM465s came in 10 and 32 splines. 10 spline setups used a coupler that tends to wear, and makes a rattling noise on deceleration that may drive you nuts. the easy fix may be something as simple as to fill the sleeve with grease. to get 32 spline front outputs, grab any divorced np205, or any Ford NP205, and rob the front output, and bearing retainer from it. the bearing is the same, but the seal surface on the retainer is different. Some NP205s had a synchromesh shift for low speed shifting. throw it away. after the first 5 or so uses, its no longer a usable item. If your transfer case is kicking out of gear, the slider may be the culprit, so dont just go replacing things willy nilly. TH350 to NP205: This setup is a factory setup available from 1968-1982. If you have a standard car th350, and you want to put it in front of an NP205, go get the transmission output shaft changed over to the th350 4x4 output shaft. That, and the adapter with sleeve is all you need. The spline count on a th350 style np205 is 27. This case will not bolt up directly to a 4l60/700r4 without a special output shaft or adapter. SM465 to NP205 There are two versions of this setup. One version is for trucks from 68-85 and comes with a coupling sleeve that has a tendency to wear. This is a ten spline input version, and shares the same outside dimensions as a th350 case, with the exception of the input spline being 10, and not 27. The second and later version of this case is what we call the round faced np205. It has a 32 spline female input, and that input sticks out about 4 inches from the face of the transfer case to engage a 32 spline sm465 output shaft. This case has no coupling sleeve. The input of the transfer case is driven by the output of the trans, like the th400 application. http://pirate4x4.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1201999739 th400 to NP205 The factory used 2 different ways to hook this up, and there are more. Using what you have, or the factory method. The Np205 racetrack pattern *(8 bolts on the transfer case side) adapter, and the round faced (six bolt) adapter are the two stock choices for this unit to bolt up. With the racetrack adapter *(called that because of the long oval shape of the transfer case end) you must use a short shaft for th400, namely a 2wd th400 short output and install it directly to the adapter. This adapter was made from 78-85. With the roundfaced adapter, you must use an NP208 output shaft, and the long 4inch input shaft for the round faced np205. This adapter was made from 85-91-ish… Alternative options: Still want to use a th400? And you have a round faced case, but no adapter? Happen to have the np208 adapter that you got with a cheap 400?.... your parts are almost together! Change the input shaft to the older style short input for TH400-Np205 and youre in business. If youre stuck with a Ford NP205, and you want to make it work behind that TH400, change the 31 spline ford input for the 32 spline GM input, reuse the original bearing, because it fits, and viola` youre done! Well, almost done. To use the ford case, you have to cut ¼ inch off the bearing retainer on theinput, to reduce the depth behind the adapter, and countersink the holes for the retainers bolts. Count on drilling and tapping the face of the Ford case for 6 bolts to hold the adapter on. If you want to use it behind an NV 4500, with a ford drivers side drop NP205 case, you can use the GM NV 4500 tailhousing and 32 spline output shaft to mate to a 32 spline input inside the ford case. Of course, you will have to drill and tap the holes to make it fit. If you have a 10 spline case, or a TH350 case, you can use the respective transmission to hook it up. If you want to hook that 10 spline or 27 spline case up behind anything else that has a 32 spline output, whether it be an sm465, nv4500, or th400, you must have the case bored for the larger bearing th350 to racetrack 205 adapter: SM465 to racetrack 205 adapter BCA # 1307L (small input bearing) outer dia = 3.1496 bore = 1.3780 width = .8268 BCA # 1210L (big input bearing) outer dia = 3.5433 bore = 1.9685 width = .7874 Here are the pics of my chevy 205. It came out of a '83 K20 and is behind a 400 trans. Front output flange removed. Rear aluminum plate removed. Complete front output shaft assembly from chevy 205. Ford 205 front output assembly. Here you can see it uses a collar that slids over the teeth. Ford shaft on the left. Notice the part where the teeth are is smaller. Chevy 205 shift fork. The adapter is 4" long. I want to say it was about 10 1/2" tall. Note the differences in the 205; shifter slide assemblies, veined rear cover for the front output (which uses a smaller bearing than the typical cover) and different 30 spline front output shaft. In (at least) 83 & 84 GM offered trucks with D60's equipped with auto locking hubs, these trucks had a syncro'd 205 which allowed low speed "shift on the fly" capabilities. Here is a pic of the rear cover on a typical 205 - Here is a pic of the rear cover on a syncro'd 205 NOTE THE OILING VEIN AT APPROX 11:00 GM 205: (1969-1991, right hand drop) -27 spline male input small bearing for THM350 (69-82) -10 spline male input small bearing for SM465 (69-85) -32 spline male long input large bearing for SM465 (86??-91) -32 spline male short input large bearing for THM400 (78-85) -inputs compatable with Ford, Dodge. -1980-1991 were slip yoke rear output. -1968-1978 had 10 spline front outputs. -1977-1986 had 30 spline front outputs. -1982 and some 83-84 1-ton 205's were synchronized. -32 spline inputs can be short or long style. -6 bolt round mount pattern was 1985-1991 automatic trans. -8 bolt racetrack pattern from 1969-1991. -32 spline THM400 applications used a large bore input bearing housing. Dodge 205: (1969-1974 all, 1974-1988 1-ton only, and 1989-1993 Cummins W250 & W350 only; right hand drop) -23 spline male input for 1975-1993 except diesel. -29 spline male input for 1989-1993 Cummins 5-speed. -32 spline front output. Ford 205: (driver side drop) -31 spline female large input. -32 spline front outputs. -divorced mount is 32 spline male input. -inputs compatable with GM, Dodge. Just found this pic of a 205 bolted to a th400/208 adapter. Ford 205's. 1/2 tons prior to 79 will have 1310 u-joints, 79 and up went to 1330 size u-joints. the 1330 yoke has a larger sleeve od, therefore the corresponding seal id is larger. The seal od is the same, therefore the bearing retainers are the same, and interchangeable. 3/4 tons always used the 1330 out back(I'm not sure about where they used the F though) since the rear was a Dana 60 and that was the standard size for that. Prior to 79, if the front was a 44, it would have had the 1310. 79 and later would have had the 1330, but, the F-250 was also available in 78 and 79 with a Dana 60 front end, which would have got the 1330 regardless of year. Since the 79 F-350 was a 79 and had D60's f/r, naturally they all had twin 1330's as well. Hopefully you can see now that any combination of f/r yoke size is possible on any vehicle since these trucks are now 30+, and have undoubtably had many swaps since then. When encountered with these challenges, the installer could have used a combo joint, parts from a donor drive shaft, redid his drive shaft, or swapped one or both his yokes(and seal) on the replacement case, so now anything is possible. The only trick is getting the size yoke you want to run, and then the correct corresponding seal. They are all 32 spline yokes, and the seal ods and bearing retainers are all the same, so they are completely interchangeable Another little tidbit along the 78/79 break also. Prior to 79, the linkage between the shifter and equalizer bar on the case was constructed of roundbar. In 79, they went to a flat bar design. I'm told the flat bar is stronger, but I never had a problem with the roundbars, and to me it seems like if you don't have a super free pivot on the shifter the flat bar is harder to throw. The roundbar is much more forgiving on angles and stuff when it starts to get worn(IMO). 1350 series have 1 3/16" caps 1 1/16" cap x 3 5/8" cross 1330 small cap 1 1/8" cap x 3 5/8" cross 1330 big cap 1 3/16" cap x 3 5/8" cross 1350 ' the deal with the synchro'd 205 is this: If in the future you wanted to change up to a 32 spline front output, you will need all of the internals from the donor case to swap into the GM 205 case. The shift fork is different, the slider is different, and on a 32 spline front output, the bearing retainer has a larger seal opening for the appropriate seal. Even the rear cover on the np205 case has to be replaced as the roller bearings are a different diameter than the cover for a nonsynchro case. Bolt Pattern: All GM NP205 cases 1971-1985 had a 8 bolt "racetrack" bolt pattern All GM NP205 Cases 1986-up had a 6 bolt circular bolt pattern Input Spline: GM Used four different input shaft configurations on these cases. 10 spline: (1971-85) The most common were units supplied with a 4 speed which typically had a 10 spline male input shaft. 27 spline: (1971-79) The units supplied with a T350 automatic have a 27 spline male input shaft. 32 spline (Short); 32 spl (Long): The units supplied with a T400 Automatic (also SM465 86-up) have a 32 spline female input. We have seen both a short (about 1.5 to 2.0" stickout) and long (more like 3-3.5" stickout) versions of this gear. This gear is directly compatible with the Klune-V Extreme Underdrive, which can be supplied with a 32 spline output shaft. Longer spacers are required with the long input. Also see data on swapping input gears lower on this page. 1979 to 1985 GM NP205: 8 bolt "racetrack" bolt pattern: During these years, the GM NP205 showed up behind Turbo 400 and SM465 Transmissions in 1 Ton trucks only.. 1/2 and 3/4 T trucks began to be supplied with the NP208 instead. SM465 units will still typically use the 10 spline input. Turbo 400 units have the stout 32 spline female input (in most cases the short 32 spl input, about 1.5-2.0" stickout) however still uses the 8 bolt "racetrack" bolt pattern. 1986 and Later GM NP205: 6 Bolt circular bolt pattern: At this point GM updated the unit to use the same 6 bolt circular bolt pattern used on the NP208, and all subsequent GM full size 4x4 truck applications. All of them are the 32 spline female input, although those we have seen are the long (about 3.5" stickout) 32 spl input. Front Output GM used two front output shaft configurations, one had a spline count of 10, the other was a 30 spline. 10 splines came before 1977 (roughly) 30 spline shafts came after 1977 (again, roughly). One quick way to tell them apart is by the fact that 10 splines came with a 1310 series yoke output, capable of accepting a CV or yoke driveshaft. 30 spline shafts came with the flat flange on the output, capable of accepting the GM 3R series CV joint. The 10 spline output will accept the stock 1310; Or a separately purchased 1330 or 1350 Spicer u-joint yoke, and the 1310 CV yoke. The 30 spline flange will accept the 1330 or 1350 CV joints. Rear Output The most popular version Is a 32 spline shaft / fixed yoke and will accept a 1310, 1330, or 1350 u-joint yoke, and the 1310 CV yoke. Some were slip yoke, with a longer tailhousing. Parts are available from us to convert these to fixed yoke, if desired. Ford New Process 205 Transfer Case NP205 Ford The Ford NP205 transfer case uses the 6 bolt circular bolt pattern . It has a left hand drop (driver's side). It is supplied with a 31 spline female input. Rear Output Is a 32 spline shaft and will accept a 1310, 1330, or 1350 u-joint yoke, and the 1310 CV yoke. Front Output Is customarily a 32 spline shaft, same as the rear with interchangeable yokes. Dodge NP205 Transfer Case The Dodge NP205 transfer cases are mostly an 8 bolt pattern like the early Chevy. Some late units had the 6 bolt circular pattern. These units all have a right hand drop. Most are supplied with a 23 spline male input shaft and used with a coupler. 29 Spline Dodge: There is a fairly rare 29 spline NP205 used in Dodge trucks behind the Getrag 5 speed. The NP205 used behind automatics are all 23 spline, even in the 1 Ton Cummins apps. Later applications of this case appear to use a short adapter to bolt to the front of the Tcase, and has the 6 bolt circular pattern found on the transmission tailhousing adapter. This adapter also functions as a bearing retainer in the front of the Tcase and carries the input seal. The casting used for the 23 spline input is different than the one used for the 29 spline, due to the larger bearing and seal. The 23 spline part CAN be machined out to accept the 29 spline parts, but with TLC as it does not leave much meat in some places. These adapters seem to be kinda hard to find on the boneyard circuit, and are apparently no longer available new from Dodge. Also see data on swapping input gears lower on this page. Divorced NP 205 Transfer cases (Dodge – Ford – Chevy) Are the same as the corresponding married (Married = bolts to directly to the trans), however, divorced units are mounted on their own crossmember separate from the trans. They have a yoke type input, and are coupled to the trans with a short (1-2') driveshaft Ford NP205 Divorced Transfer Case Specifications: Low Range reduction ratio: 1.96:1 Transfer Case Overall Length : approx 14” (measured from bolt-up surface to U-joint center in Rear yoke) Swapping input gears in NP205s Dodge, Ford and GM input gears are all internally interchangeable in all NP205s with one MAJOR detail: GM 27 and 10sp, and Dodge 23 spl all used a SMALL dia input bearing and seal. These shafts can be swapped directly among themselves. GM32, Ford 31 and Dodge 29 spl used a LARGER dia bearing. These shafts can be swapped among them selves directly If you want to upgrade an NP205 with a 10,27 or 23 spl input to a 29, 31 or 32 spl input: The case must be fully disassembled and the opening where the input bearing sits must be machined out to accept the larger dia bearing. A larger seal is also used. The adapter or bearing retainer must fit the Larger dia bearing. Twin-Stick operation for a 205 The 205 can be twin-sticked much in the same manner as a Dana 300 and other gear drive transfer cases. There is an internal interlock shuttle pin inside the unit that must be removed: The transfer case must be disassembled to where the shift rails can be removed. In the front, in the bosses where the shift rails come out, there are detent springs and balls on both shift rails. Also, inside, in between the shift rails, is a shuttle pin that slides back and forth between the shift rails in order to properly sequence shifting for a single stick operation. This shuttle pin will not allow full twin stick operation, and must be removed. You want to keep the detent springs and balls. For full Tcase disassembly info and diagrams, refer to a rebuild manual for the case. Externally, it is simply a matter of rigging a system that will operate each shift lever independently. Twin Sticking a 205 when using a Klune underdrive: The inner shift rail is located inside the front mounting bolt circle: In some cases (such as a Klune underdrive) the housing of the gearbox does not allow a linkage rod to be directly connected to the rail. In this case, it is possible to built a lever system to couple in the twin stick. We did this on a Bronco I had. Unfortunately, I have no pictures of this to publish. I will attempt to describe in words how I made my 205 twin stick work: I made a bracket that botls to the two bolt holes on the outer end of the 205. I ran an lever arm to the inner shift rail which pivots off this bkt. I attached the rod from the inner shifter stick to this lever arm about 1.5" out from the shifter rail. If you are purchasing a 205 from us, we will perform the internal mods at no additional charge at the time of buildup. 77 banana-400,208 sye,1 tons 456's,oba,linked,streched,boatsided,46's,propane, warn 8274 06 chevy3500 dually-mostly stock,predator,sims,hids,k&n,tv/ dvd,bully dog watch dog,tinted windows...soon to come backup camera,backup sensors and a led dash upgrade. Last edited by twoslo4five0; May 6th, 2009 at 04:43 PM.. May 6th, 2009, 04:52 PM #2 twoslo4five0 twoslo4five0 Enterprises Vehicle: 1977 banana boatsided linked stretched propane 1tons locked F&R exo 4.56 gears warn 8274 400/465/208 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: chesterfield,va My location Posts: 4,871 Images: 10 Rep Power: 2379 iTrader: (7) 700r to a 205 find a 27 spline (th350) 205,and the adapter part#7Q35A,and cut around 1/4" off the tailshaft of the tranny.I cut about 3/8 of an in and have read 1/8 in.just took a bunch of measurements before i cut most tranny shops should beable to get the adapter,it is made for swapping out a 700r and putting in a 350 as they are 1 7/8in different.best part it was only 55 bucks http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/...15&Search.y=16 found a clocking plate for racetrack pattern 205s that I didnt know about. Here is the post that brought it to my attention. http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost....1&postcount=16 You have an early model NP 205. The speedo gear is pinched between a spacer, a ball bearing, and the yoke. This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 480x640. This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 1783x1339. 77 banana-400,208 sye,1 tons 456's,oba,linked,streched,boatsided,46's,propane, warn 8274 06 chevy3500 dually-mostly stock,predator,sims,hids,k&n,tv/ dvd,bully dog watch dog,tinted windows...soon to come backup camera,backup sensors and a led dash upgrade. May 6th, 2009, 08:14 PM #3 Gotlabs GFY Vehicle: 2wd knee son front ear Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Locust Grove VA My location Posts: 3,792 Images: 121 Rep Power: 2643 iTrader: (3) Nice post Jay, that is a lot of good info. Just in time for me to upgrade my 205. “If Barack Obama had given a speech on bowling, it might well have been brilliant and inspiring. But instead he actually tried bowling and threw a gutter ball. The contrast between talking and doing could not have been better illustrated." Quote: Originally Posted by Tim Screw haiti, send me your money Got questions? PM or Email me -‐‑>[email protected] May 6th, 2009, 08:20 PM #4 clarkjw24 Short Mod Vehicle: 86 K5=a banana's worse nightmare. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: McBee SC, 29101 My location Posts: 2,876 Images: 16 Rep Power: 3469 iTrader: (5) Quote: Originally Posted by Gotlabs Nice post Jay, that is a lot of good info. Just in time for me to upgrade my 205 to 203. Loser. Need help with the site? contact me at [email protected] Learn to run your brain before you run your mouth. What did he say? Quote: Originally Posted by Badass might go test johns new meats May 6th, 2009, 08:42 PM #5 twoslo4five0 twoslo4five0 Enterprises Vehicle: 1977 banana boatsided linked stretched propane 1tons locked F&R exo 4.56 gears warn 8274 400/465/208 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: chesterfield,va My location Posts: 4,871 Images: 10 Rep Power: 2379 iTrader: (7) thats like at least 3 cigs worth of reading material 77 banana-400,208 sye,1 tons 456's,oba,linked,streched,boatsided,46's,propane, warn 8274 06 chevy3500 dually-mostly stock,predator,sims,hids,k&n,tv/ dvd,bully dog watch dog,tinted windows...soon to come backup camera,backup sensors and a led dash upgrade. May 6th, 2009, 08:57 PM #6 wmterry89 Drives like an old man... Vehicle: '02 GMC 3500 CC/DRW/Duramax,(DD), '72 Jimmy(trailrig), '72 K20(resto) Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Durham My location Posts: 2,978 Rep Power: 2292 iTrader: (6) and its absolutly useless......... ...to me William Bookmarks Digg del.icio.us StumbleUpon Google « Previous Thread | Next Thread » Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Greetings & Salutations Introduce Yourself Announcements Hangin' Out The Campfire Member Map Meet & Greets and Hometown Happenings Sowell Town Wish You Were Here The Sammich Shop The Visitors Center Mission Statement Membership Details Testing Area Be a Supporting Member Feedback & Problems Giveaway's & Raffles Supporting Member Giveaway's Technical The Shop Toolbox Electrical Tech Articles and Links GM Dodge Jeep Ford Toyota Nissan/Suzuki Our Rigs, Rides and Places to Wheel Rigs of WheelinDixie Build Threads Trail Rig Builds Misc Ride Builds Wheelin' and Offroad Park Information Upcoming Wheelin' Events and Rides Past Wheelin' Events and Rides The Parts Bin Classifieds Parts for Sale Tires/Wheels for Sale Misc. for Sale Vehicles for Sale Free/Trade Wanted Good Finds Parts Transporting Local Shop Referrals The Roll O'Dex All times are GMT -5. 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