Let`s Talk LAG`s GOLF MACHINE!

Transcription

Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE! | forums.iseekgolf.com
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Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!
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Forums → Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction | 4030 posts
http://forums.iseekgolf.com/forums/18-ask-golf-guru-golf-instruction/topics/24374-lets-talk-lags-golf-machine?page=1 (1 of 22)10/12/2009 4:21:40 PM
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lagpressure
Hitters or swingers…
Would love to hear your pro’s and con’s of both techniques..
I played a few of the world tours a few years back, and might be able
to give some
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May 07 2008 10:47
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
insight into what that all meant on tour.
I was a young Doyle disciple back in the Clampett days, and studied the
Mac side too… so I am pretty up on both swinging and hitting, and have
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come to some pretty useful conclusions
about all things G.O.L.F.
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
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Bio
L.P
is there really any pro’s and con’s it’s what ever works for the invidual,
to be honest I can floor either, hitting suits some and swinging suits
others.
I can do both techniques and depends in what suituation I’m in to
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May 07 2008 11:01
which I use,
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1237 posts
I’m interested to what it meant on tour ?
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Member since 2008
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Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function
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iseekgolfguru
Welcome to the forum lag’. Drop me an e-mail to
golfguruATiseekgolfDOTcom :)
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May 07 2008 11:01
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8156 posts
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View Monitored Posts
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lagpressure
We’ll, I must say that swinging and the use of longitudinal acceleration
I believe to be the superior method of all things feel. Dumping the
power package on the ball with soft hands is just a beautiful thing
around the greens for all the chips, flops and around the green wedges.
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May 07 2008 12:05
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1430 posts
I would argue that swinging makes a huge assumption that our hinges
are always well oiled, free and flexible. The steady even acceleration
to the moment of truth depends on exactly these things… steady, even,
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Member since 2008
and well oiled firm, but flexible hinges.
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We of course can debate the pressure gauge software inside the
computer. Everyone seems to have a different setting. I am not likely
to go into the red on a weekend game with guys at the club, but
coming down the final three holes to win the South Australian Open
might put me well into the red! lol
It’s natural when we feel pressure to tighten up, and these states of
muscle constraint do not do well for the free flexible hinges.
Now if you have the mind of a Nicklaus, and pressure does not bother
you, then your computer will keep pumping oil to those hinges right to
the award platform on the 72nd green. For me that was not usually the
case!
Once I learned how to hit, with a tight grip pressure, and radial
acceleration with an angled hinge, I found that to be much better
under the gun, and as my computer would cut off the oil and my
muscles would tighten, I would typically just rotate a bit faster and I
would just have to remember to pull one LESS club down the stretch
and since I would practice with a very tight cohesive body tension,
those moments would really just seem all too familiar…. I found I was
able to perform much better under pressure with pure hitting
techniques.
Greg McHatton once asked me why I would want to pull the club out of
orbit with the angled hinge, and the answer was really quite simple. So
I could hit it straight consistently!
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muntz
Is Peter Lonard a Hitter?
Is there a downside to Hitting? Do you have to have forearms like
Popeye to make it work…?
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May 07 2008 12:16
Reverse every natural instinct you have and do just the opposite of what you are
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4426 posts
inclined to do and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing.
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Member since 2007
– BEN HOGAN, POWER GOLF
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http://boxhillgolfclub.com.au/
live4golf
lag…dumb it down a bit please mate, I get confused easily at the best
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of times :)
Hello, 911? It’s Quagmire. Yeah, it’s caught in the window this time.
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Giggity, giggity, giggity, giggity!
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May 07 2008 12:17
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2395 posts
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davego
lagâ¦dumb it down a bit please mate, I get confused easily at the
best of times :)
A bad day at golf is better than a good day at work.
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May 07 2008 12:21
1447 posts
Member since 2007
Yeah me too please lag. You are obviously going to have a bit to offer
on the threads, but really don’t need another Jeffman who talks in
other world academic speak.
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(No offence intended Jeff, just that some of your responses are just
soooo hard to comprehend)
The key to success is to learn to do something right, then do it right every time. Oh
I wish…..
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Boof
I’m trying to make sense of the posts as well. I did however think
immediately of this clip on YouTube:
Golf Blooper
Cheers,
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May 07 2008 12:27
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241 posts
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Mick
If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten.
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muntz
I think he’s trying to talk in layman’s terms actually, but you probably
have to have some idea of the TGM concepts in play though
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May 07 2008 12:31
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jeffmann
LagPressure
You present an interesting perspective on hitting versus swinging.
Your idea that swinging depends on well-oiled hinges makes sense to
me, and I can readily believe that a swinger could therefore have more
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May 07 2008 12:44
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759 posts
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Member since 2007
day-by-day swing inconsistency than a hitter, who powers the swing
with a radial thrust (in an pick-axe manner).
You wrote-: “Greg McHatton once asked me why I would want to pull
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the club out of orbit with the angled hinge. Could you please expand
on this point about pulling the club out of orbit with angled hinging?
Jeff.
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lagpressure
OK,
In simple terms..
Swingers are the guys with the long flowing swings, smooth and
effortless looking (don’t be fooled though)
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May 07 2008 12:55
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1430 posts
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Hitters look more like short backswing, quick swing, that kind of thing.
I didn’t mean to sound over the top…
I assumed this was a golf machine thread and that everyone here spoke
that G.O.L.F. language..
The heart of what I was saying is that I think pure swingers have a
harder time under pressure, and in my years on the tour, I saw the
games best using hitting methods. Clampett and I had a long talk about
it one year at Q school. He agreed.
The best striker I ever saw was Peter Senior from Australia. I was there
when he we waxing everyone from Norman in his prime, Faldo,
no one could touch him. No swinging going on with that fine move.
Swingers pull, hitters push. I believe there are purists on each end of
the spectrum, most players do some of both, often not all that
effectively.
MUNTZ
I believe hitters sometimes lack the touch and finesse, and it is much
more based on strength, that is correct, Popeye would be a hitter for
sure… Swinging can give you tremendous length with the proper
application, and minimal overall body strength. If you want to just flat
out hit it long… swing.. If you want to rarely miss a fairway, hit.
From a purely ideological standpoint swinging is superior I believe.
But for me hitting proved the better method to win money and
tournaments on the world stage.
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lagpressure
Yes you are correct, but to maximize the dynamics of law, swingers
have things like maximum swing radius, snap loading, and full dual
horizontal hinge action to give it that classic long smooth look… and a
lot of wallop!
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May 07 2008 13:34
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1430 posts
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As far as the book, I don’t think it leaves much to interpretation, and
the objectiveness of it… is what lands it in truth… and not imagination.
“Complexity is far more simple and workable than mystery!”
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No mystery in the golf swing.. I agree…
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KOC
Lag pressure is the secret of G.O.L.F.
According to a video of Greg McHatton, Greg said when he took part in
one of the G.O.L.F. week with Homer, Homer said he don’t like
“Swinging”...coz that is too easy…It will be interesting to see Greg
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May 07 2008 13:56
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232 posts
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with a “Hitting” video.
BTW, lagpressue, please share with us more.
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lagpressure
JEFF
âœGreg McHatton once asked me why I would want to pull the club
out of orbit with the angled hinge. Could you please expand on this
point about pulling the club out of orbit with angled hinging?
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May 07 2008 14:05
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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Ok,
If you were to let go of the club at impact the club would of course
bounce off the ground move away from you.. say towards 10 or 11 o
clock. Aiming the hands at the inside quadrant of the ball.
Now if you go with that momentum you can use a full roll of the wrists
and let the arms move away from the body after dumping all the force
on the ball and then into the ground. This is the Doyle, McHatton
approach, and it works well. I know. I can swing that way and have
won tournaments with that kind of swing.
Now if you fight that expanding circle action, you have to use an angle
hinge, no wrist roll and the club is released by the rotation of the
body. If you stand behind a golfer with this motion, the hands will
quickly disappear around the body after impact… kind of like cutting it
left. This is more the Mac O Grady motion. Hogan was all about this
too. By pulling the club out of it’s natural longitudinal orbit,
you create a massive amount of pressure in your hands, on all three
pressure points. This pressure in your hands is FEEL! and this is the feel
that you can learn to utilize to control the ball exactly how you want
to…. a three yard draw, a five yard fade, low, high, it’s all yours if you
can learn to do it. Warning! You have to have strong arms and hands if
you are planning on rotating fast and hitting it far!
On top of that, you have to learn what I believe to be the most
difficult swing move in all of golf. Straightening the right arm out
quickly on the downswing…while the torso turns flat or at right angles
to the spine or axis. It’s a great move to master though, because if you
can do it, you can’t ever get over the top of the shot and pull it.
For those who are still confused, it feels like you are coming right over
the top to hit a big pull shot, but instead, that hands move straight
down, as if they are going to land in your right hip pocket, but your
shoulders are turning as flat a a 15th century spanish globe.
I have seen that move win a lot of money and tournaments.
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lagpressure
Lag pressure is the secret of G.O.L.F.
AMEN!!!!!
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May 07 2008 14:06
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1430 posts
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iseekgolfguru
Thanks for sharing there Lag. It is a great thing to be able to use both
hitting and swinging for different circumstances. Just being aware of
when they are so that you can make the change is a topic all on its
own:)
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May 07 2008 14:23
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8156 posts
Swinging is oily fluid motion. Hitting is more power thrusting right arm
biff. Now guys go re- read that post and I hope it makes more sense
now.
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Member since 2003
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lagpressure
Hitters lose distance, but can make it up with strength. I have always
believed that to hold the flex of the shaft all the way to the ball is the
most difficult thing ever asked of the human body! The hitters nirvana
is to hold the flex of the shaft passed impact. Remember, when
acceleration reaches zero, the shaft itself releases, even if the
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May 07 2008 14:25
clubhead is well behind the hands. It’s tough to see it even on high
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1430 posts
speed video. This is why tour pros still hit bad shots. With X shafts we
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Member since 2008
don’t have much room for error here. Hitting the ball with a pre
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stressed shaft is the meaning of sustaining the lag. Many people get
confused between the angle of the shaft and the left arm, the big deep
lag look, Hogan, Sergio, etc… and true lag pressure which is the physics
of actually stressing the shaft. Tough stuff my friends.
To hit the ball far you only need clubhead speed, but to hit it straight
everyday, you need acceleration. My goal is to have the clubhead
moving faster AFTER impact, which leads to the 5th accumulator, but I
am not ready to start that discussion with die hard golf machine
purists…LOL
The only guy I have ever seen do it all the time is Moe Norman. Moe
used to tell me to take bacon strip divots, not pork chops! To each
their own I guess but Doyle was all about serving pork chops…
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Aussie_Bomber
effortless looking (donâ™t be fooled though)
Hitters look more like short backswing, quick swing, that kind of thing
I believe hitters sometimes lack the touch and finesse, and it is much
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May 07 2008 14:27
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1289 posts
sureâ¦ Swinging can give you tremendous length with the proper
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Member since 2008
application, and minimal overall body strength.
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more based on strength, that is correct, Popeye would be a hitter for
If you want to just flat out hit it longâ¦ swing.. If you want to rarely
miss a fairway, hit
Hi Lag Pressure,
Welcome to Hell… I mean ISG… hahaha (only joking admin!)
I happen to agree with Serenty, I don’t doubt your knowledge but I
think you have over generalised a tad.
Not all hitters have a short quick backswing as I would class myself as
primarily a hitter, however I have a long, slow backswing to fully wind
up.
Im yet to be convinced that golfers are purely one or the other,
primarily yes, but purely no. I think blending sometimes occurs and
golfers will exhibit characteristics of both hitting and swinging.
To all that are reading this, I am in no way denegrating TGM as I am
extremely interested in it and am in a learning phase.
Let me explain:
I personally have a long backswing wind up – slow and controlled. At
the beginning of the downswing I “pull” the club into what I would
term a “hitting slot”. From here I hit hard with the right hand snapping
the club through impact. For me on the way back is a “swing”, from
halfway down point in the downswing I am very aggressive and take
advantage of muscular strength to “hit” the ball.
Does this make any sense to anyone?
(I am not trying to be smart, am trying to learn)
As far as swinging being the ultimate in achieving length off the tee, I
think you will find that almost every long driver in the world would
describe a strong “hitting” sensation through the impact zone with the
dominant trailing hand. By the same token It would be rare to find one
though that doesn’t exhibit the long flowing backswing of a “swinger”.
Is there ever a hitting sensation in a swinger or a swinging sensation in
a hitter? Are there hybrid models in TGM?
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iseekgolfguru
You either hit or swing. Reason for this is one is an Angle of Approach
and the other an Arc of Approach. They are directed in two different
ways. Right arm thrust is a straight line thrust. Swingers are arcs.
How you swing back can see the pattern components mixed. How you
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May 07 2008 14:34
swing down has to be one or the other or you have a train wreck in
terms of clubhead and face control.
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8156 posts
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Member since 2003
A swinger can feel a straightening right arm via extensor action (right
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elbow is stretched straight). A hitter feels it through outright use of
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the right elbow straightening as hard as it can.
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Toolish
My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER impact,
Good luck with that one!
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down and out…did ya get that?
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May 07 2008 14:42
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3521 posts
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Member since 2004
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Aussie_Bomber
You either hit or swing. Reason for this is one is an Angle of
Approach and the other an Arc of Approach. They are directed in
two different ways. Right arm thrust is a straight line thrust.
Swingers are arcs.
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May 07 2008 14:54
How you swing back can see the pattern components mixed. How
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1289 posts
you swing down has to be one or the other or you have a train
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Member since 2008
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wreck in terms of clubhead and face control.
A swinger can feel a straightening right arm via extensor action
(right elbow is stretched straight). A hitter feels it through outright
use of the right elbow straightening as hard as it can.
Thanks Guru,
Makes more sense, hopefully when I am a little more TGM saavy I will
be able to explain what I am talking about in correct terminology.
Over generalisation on characteristics of hitter (fast, short b’swing) v
swinger (long, flowing b’swing) led to my initial confusion. I definitely
head straight at the ball from downswing (cutting off my arc, so to
speack), which classes me as hitter?
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Aussie_Bomber
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down and outâ¦did ya get that?
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May 07 2008 14:55
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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I want all the energy transferred into the ball personally
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muntz
Is it worth learning to swing and hit?
But not swit.
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May 07 2008 15:24
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4426 posts
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iseekgolfguru
Sure is worth the effort to see the differences and then use them when
its appropriate.
Lag’: Happy to have 5th accumulators thrown into this forum. The
forum is about good golf info and I for one am open to the ideas as long
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as you are happy to educate as there will be questions! Our sort of
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May 07 2008 15:35
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8156 posts
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Member since 2003
“There is on such thing as a silly question. If the question makes no
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sense then it shows the light bulb is not even close to being wired up
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motto in here is;
and plugged in yet to make it a fathomable question.”
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lagpressure
Guru is correct…
Radial acceleration and longitudinal acceleration are mutually
exclusive.
try to do both, train wreck..!
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May 07 2008 15:43
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1430 posts
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live4golf
Is it worth learning to swing and hit?
But not swit.
Reverse every natural instinct you have and do just the opposite of what you
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May 07 2008 16:02
2395 posts
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Member since 2007
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are inclined to do and you will probably come very close to having a perfect
golf swing. – BEN HOGAN, POWER GOLF
swit…hahahaha
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KOC
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May 07 2008 16:03
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232 posts
Johnny Miller claimed that he is the only one to do that with machine
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Member since 2005
testing….
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live4golf
righto, so what are the different situations you would hit rather than
swing (or swing rather than hit)? – short irons, drives, punches….what
are the best ways to apply each type of swing…and are all people
capable of being a swinger and a hitter?
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May 07 2008 16:04
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2395 posts
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Member since 2007
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davego
Beautiful, thanks for the understandable explanation Lag and Guru. I
have just realised, or more to the point, confirmed in my mind, I am a
swinger. Makes life a whole lot easier to put into practice some of the
things I have taken from these threads and also knowing what is not for
me. As Guru would say, lightbulb has come on and the mist is clearing.
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May 07 2008 16:07
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1447 posts
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Member since 2007
I am sure it should have come on earlier, but I was missing the switch.
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I wish…..
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KOC
effortless looking (donâ™t be fooled though)
Hitters look more like short backswing, quick swing, that kind of
thing
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May 07 2008 16:10
232 posts
Member since 2005
I believe hitters sometimes lack the touch and finesse, and it is
much more based on strength, that is correct, Popeye would be a
hitter for sureâ¦ Swinging can give you tremendous length with
the proper application, and minimal overall body strength.
If you want to just flat out hit it longâ¦ swing.. If you want to
rarely miss a fairway, hit
Hi Lag Pressure,
Welcome to Hellâ¦ I mean ISGâ¦ hahaha (only joking admin!)
I happen to agree with Serenty, I donâ™t doubt your knowledge
but I think you have over generalised a tad.
Not all hitters have a short quick backswing as I would class myself
as primarily a hitter, however I have a long, slow backswing to fully
wind up.
Im yet to be convinced that golfers are purely one or the other,
primarily yes, but purely no. I think blending sometimes occurs and
golfers will exhibit characteristics of both hitting and swinging.
To all that are reading this, I am in no way denegrating TGM as I
am extremely interested in it and am in a learning phase.
Let me explain:
I personally have a long backswing wind up â“ slow and
controlled. At the beginning of the downswing I âœpullâ• the
club into what I would term a âœhitting slotâ•. From here I hit
hard with the right hand snapping the club through impact. For me
on the way back is a âœswingâ•, from halfway down point in
the downswing I am very aggressive and take advantage of
muscular strength to âœhitâ• the ball.
Does this make any sense to anyone?
(I am not trying to be smart, am trying to learn)
As far as swinging being the ultimate in achieving length off the
tee, I think you will find that almost every long driver in the world
would describe a strong âœhittingâ• sensation through the
impact zone with the dominant trailing hand. By the same token It
would be rare to find one though that doesnâ™t exhibit the long
flowing backswing of a âœswingerâ•.
Is there ever a hitting sensation in a swinger or a swinging
sensation in a hitter? Are there hybrid models in TGM?
Four Barrel??? That might be a great choice for Long Distance Champ.
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Cliffmanley
hmmm now I am crying in my golf bag, getting my mouldy sangers wet,
staining my wet weather gear, I’ve finally worked out that I CAN’T
have just one swing, I have to hit my chips, I must hit my punches, it’s
why I’ve been struggling from around 100m….. aaahhhhhhhhhhgggggrrrr
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May 07 2008 16:20
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2820 posts
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Member since 2008
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I hate this forum, it teaches me stuff, now I gotta practice again….
ahhh an excuse to practice… ohk that’s cool, feeling better now, not so
depressed….
Now where’s that driving range, oh yeah, just where I left it….
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Cliff Manley
ahhh “consistency” the holy grail of golf….
“You’re no man! You’re a Bishop, for god’s Sakes…!”
Golf is Chess with Balls!!!
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iseekgolfguru
Gotta love learning:) This place may shake a mind or two. We hope in
the long run to a better understanding of swing (or hit) so that you can
do it better more often.
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May 07 2008 16:29
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8156 posts
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KOC
Where is the Dart? Sir…You must say something on this matter. You
preferred Hitting over Swinging when I first knew your name, but lately
you said that you changed the ship captain.
Why?
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May 07 2008 16:40
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232 posts
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Toolish
My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER
impact,
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May 07 2008 16:47
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3521 posts
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Member since 2004
Johnny Miller claimed that he is the only one to do that with
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machine testingâ¦.
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And Brian Manzella has basically clamed it is impossible.
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KOC
And Brain sometime said himself…. “I was dead wrong”....
I will find the clip Johnny said at TGC. Of course, Johnny might be
dead wrong…
Sorry…no offence to great player and great teacher.
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May 07 2008 16:53
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232 posts
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Member since 2005
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iseekgolfguru
Dart must be out for the day…..maybe even 9 holes? ?
Dart teaches you how to hit first, then swing. I would suggest that
there is no preferred pattern as such, just what the individual is more
physically capable of doing better one way than the other.
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May 07 2008 16:56
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8156 posts
is a must. I can hit pretty straight over shorter distances though. Just
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Member since 2003
got to make my mind up before I hit the ball what I am going to do.
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Stick man me can hit but without much strength, swinging for distance
(Note to self: the brain needs to be engaged in that decision making
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process before walking up to the ball)
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lagpressure
Well as far as the 5th accumulator goes, if anyone has ever actually
built a plane to swing on, you find out quickly that the club does not
ride on a perfect flat plane like in Hogan’s book. It would be pretty
flat… and if you believe as I do that the true objective of the swing is
to have the clubhead traveling faster after impact than before, (true
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May 07 2008 17:33
pre stressed shaft flex to the ball and beyond) you are going to have to
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1430 posts
be applying some serious forces upon that shaft long after impact..
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Member since 2008
This is where that final plane shift from elbow plane to shoulder plane
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takes place. I believe the secret lies here…
I have one word.. Peter Senior… I saw it.. I was there, in the late 80’s
in Australia, no one hit it better than Peter Senior..not Norman, not
Faldo, not O Grady….. and I believe Hogan did the same.
So after Accumulator #4 is spent, the body rotation, the left hip
cleared, the right arm is extended, wrist rotation and uncocking spent,
what is left to keep accelerating?
Think on these things..
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lagpressure
I have heard Johnny Miller speak about that…
The Iron Byron machine does it..
Mac O claims to do it..
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May 07 2008 17:44
I would say from my personal experience, and the use of high speed
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1430 posts
cameras, it is possible to hold the flex to the ball and beyond without a
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Member since 2008
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pork chop divot.
the secret 5th accumulator..
I think it parallels golf itself.. the closer you get to it, the better you
will be..
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KOC
Finish swivel?
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May 07 2008 17:46
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232 posts
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Member since 2005
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iseekgolfguru
lag’: Playing the devils advocate here, the high speed shots of late are
said to show the shaft does not stay stressed through impact.
I had discussions with Mr Wishon have these photos showing the shafts
‘spent’ even with a snap release. If you have some stressed ones
please throw them down the e-mail pipe. You can wear a mask if you
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May 07 2008 18:08
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8156 posts
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Member since 2003
wish:)
Homer threw everyone a clue with the Flat LEVEL and Vertical (ie not
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uncocked) to keep the acceleration through impact. But you have said
your 5th is post that point anyway.
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Aussie_Bomber
“Four Barrel??? That might be a great choice for Long Distance Champ.”
What is four barrel? (In simple terms and how is it performed?)
Snap release – Is this accompanied by a “roll release”? Is snap release
and roll release the same?
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May 07 2008 19:01
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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I had a bit of a play at the range today and found that I was “block”
releasing have been getting pain on the Ulna side of my wrist. I
implemented a “roll” release (from baseball days – Sorry Bio forgotten
correct TGM terminolgy) and started hitting the hardest flying draw.
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My swing speed climbed into the 140’s a couple of times and bottomed
out in the mid 130’s. I also had more penetration on my ball flight
through the air. Control was much easier as I could am down the right
and snap as hard as I could, ending down the left at worst.
Is this a product of “roll” releasing?
Would this from a mechanical viewpoint:
1. Increase clubhead speed?
2. Decrease backspin rate (due to clubhead rolling and imparting right
to left spin) and produce a “hotter” flight
I feel as Guru says: Today felt like a light bulb moment…
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lagpressure
I do believe what we are talking here is the holy grail of golf.
Difficult and as ever elusive as the game itself.. From my own swing
lab, using 10K shutter camera film I do have some shots of it
somewhere. I remember having seen the Iron Byron Machine do it.
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May 07 2008 19:13
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1430 posts
When I was in top form back in the late 80’s I felt I could do it hitting
but not swinging and I have some video somewhere to demonstrate it.
I’ll have to dig it up, but I did put it to the test, and was able to take
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Member since 2008
home a win on the Canadian Tour, blades, persimmon, four rounds in
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the 60’s and 17 under, back when that actually meant something! lol…
right around that time I had a round at Madera CC where I hit the pin 4
times in a round from fairways. That was telling me I was on the right
track.
Physics tells us that when acceleration reaches zero, the shaft will
release. Pictures of a swing might appear to have a delayed shaft angle
or what most call lag, but the shaft itself may be telling a different
story.
I for one am a lover of over acceleration from the top! lol.. never
throwing the club, but if my torso moves too fast from the top, and I
put a quick flex on the shaft at the change of direction, it makes
holding the flex impossible. X shafts did wonders for me on days like
this, as I would still be able to hit greens and keep the ball in play, but
not knocking down pins.
Mac was big on firing #1 first, but really to just get the club back down
from shoulder plane to elbow plane. I personally like that move a lot,
and I used to practice starting down with zero hip turn
and zero shoulder turn then once the club was at the 3rd parallel,
just rip it around with the body as fast as I could with a frozen right
arm till the 4rth parallel. It’s a great way to swing if you can master it
and your goal is to hit it dead straight all day. You have to really feel
and develop what I called a cohesive body tension, where every muscle
in the body is like one solid fiber. I used and applied that concept on
tour, and it was really pressure proof as far as direction. Controlling
distance was more of a challenge under the gun. Like Clampett, I
hated the feeling of tension in the body when I was trying to swing
with well oiled hinges… that’s why he left Doyle… and also why I
eventually did too.. but I never left the golfing machine.. Doyle at
least through the late 80’s only taught swinging. Mac was on the other
side of the fence (hitting)
Swinging for me took a lot of practice, stretching, and all in all my
body just had to feel really loose free and oily..
I couldn’t just step off the plane after a long flight, bad food, and go
to the course and start flushing shots right away. Each week was like
having to re lube the machine and get it all oiled up for Thursday. It
really wore me out over time.. the road is a whole other thing. I saw a
lot of compact short swing hitters just step off the plane at shoot 65 in
a Tuesday round.. I was always quite envious of that until I learned
how to do it myself.
That duel horizontal hinge is just way too much timing for me if I am
on the road trying to make a living playing golf.
As a swinger, I could pure it…but if I was off, it was ugly, I could just
spray it all over the course. When I switched over, I lost some distance
but became a much better striker, and even to this day, I never hit it
all over the course. I can take a year off golf and go out and shoot par
or even better … I have done it..
I could never have done that the old way (swinging) I’m not that
talented.
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matt42s
Physics tells us that when acceleration reaches zero, the shaft will
release.
No – it’s quite a bit more complicated than that.
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May 07 2008 21:16
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200 posts
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Member since 2007
All quick, jerky and wobbly motions are improper execution.
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Bio
Lag Pressure,
weclome to the forum, great post, I’m enjoying our stories and
information, drop me a line bome77@ bigppond dot com,
would like to talk further
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May 07 2008 21:17
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1237 posts
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Member since 2008
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matt42s
I put a quick flex on the shaft at the change of direction, it makes
holding the flex impossible
Holding the flex IS practically impossible. I don’t mean practically in
the sense that it is almost impossible. I mean that the only conditions
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May 07 2008 21:42
allowing the flex to be maintained are impractical. For example, you
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200 posts
could “hold the flex” if the hands always moved at a higher speed than
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Member since 2007
the clubhead. But that wouldn’t be particularly useful for hitting a golf
shot, hence impractical.
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All quick, jerky and wobbly motions are improper execution.
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Bio
Matt,
You are right, in this sense, but the hands are moving faster than the
club head, up until release,
did some research on this we had a sensor on the hands and a sensor
on the club head.
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May 07 2008 22:25
mass x velocity, hips 300 fps, upper bdoy doulbe in speed 600fps,hands
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1237 posts
doubled again, hands were 1200 fps club before impact 1200frps when
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Member since 2008
released 2400fps fps=frames per second.
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in regards to physics and zero acceleration, lagpressure is correct, we
measured this and has been proven, just before impact, hips, upper
body,arms and hands decelerate and mearly completley stop, wasn’t
for centrifugal force of the clubhead you would, it’s momentum of the
clubhead that keeps you powering on
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muntz
I’m curious about the sensations of swinging vs hitting. I have a
suspicion I actually started my golfing life as a (clumsy) hitter and have
been trying to transition into a swinger in the last 6 months after
learning about flat left wrists and hinges and swivels.
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May 08 2008 00:03
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4426 posts
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Member since 2007
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I recall a session I had on the range with my old driver a few years ago,
where I was taking a shorter than normal backswing and striking the
ball with a hard, compact swing – and getting very long, straight
results. Didn’t really understand what I was doing so I couldn’t pull it
out very often. Also remember a few older golfers say “you hit your
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irons a long way considering you only swing with your arms.”
I think I unconsciously revert to a stiffer, hitting “biff” type of action,
rather than the “oily fluid motion” of a swinger, when I’m on the
course especially when I am trying to hit the ball hard. Which
sabotages the rolling / hinging / swivelling action I’ve been working on.
I guess to me the “swinging” swing feels weaker, like it can’t generate
the power I want i.e. I just instinctively want to “biff” the club at the
ball. But if I’m reading this topic right, if the “swing” is coordinated
correctly you can generate more power than a hitter with a relatively
“lazy”, effortless feel. (?)
So where should a swinger feel the power is coming from? Is it a sort of
fly wheel effect with the torso / shoulders spinning the passive arms
down until the club is released at the last moment with educated
wrist / hand action? Or is the R arm pushing still a source of some of
the power?
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lagpressure
Swinging only looks graceful, lazy or easy..
Doyle used to describe it to me as like a duck on the water..
it appears to be moving effortlessly across the lake, but underwater
it is paddling really hard, you don’t see that..
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May 08 2008 05:25
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1430 posts
You don’t get something for nothing in this game! lol
From a standpoint of feel and what swinging would feel like in my body
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Member since 2008
(remember the Golfing Machine says to learn feel from Mechanics, not
the other way around) I would strive for maximum swing radius so I
would float load or drag load the club back to the top, so that my wrist
would not cock until the very end of my backswing, then I would flex
my knees into a big “sitdown” bowlegged thing, this would start the
change in direction, and I would hold 90 degree club shaft angle to the
third parallel with a big gutty upper body rotation into this sit down leg
squat.
Once there the left leg would straighten violently and the hips would
clear fast and you just dump all that inertia onto the ball and into the
ground with loosey goosey free flexible wrist and arms. The thing that
was amazing about this, and so different is that after impact the upper
arms would NOT stay packed and in tight to the body but would just
move out away from the body with a full roll of the wrists, so free and
spent feeling. You just have to trust that the forces that be will
release the club into perfect alignment, and amazingly they do! ... but
with this one disclosure … FREE FLEXIBLE HINGES WITH
A STEADY AND EVEN ACCELERATION on the way down.
So my argument as a practical player and tester of this is that yes it
does work, as long as the brain sends oil to the joints! .. meaning you
don’t tighten up, get nervous or feel any pressure out on the course.
Confidence can go a long way for sure, but that ended for me in the
Australian Open at Royal Melbourne in 1989 when I played some very
fine golf on the toughest windiest fastest greens,
and the longest course I had ever played, a pair of 74’s made the cut
easily and I was 16 back of Greg Norman’s 66-66 opening.
I just couldn’t wrap my brain around that… and in the years I was down
there playing against the worlds greats at that time, Faldo, Woosnam,
Colin Montgomery, and various American pros, this other guy Peter
Senior whom no one over here knew of, but let me say that this guy
would shoot a 64 every week at some point, and I don’t care how hard
it blew or how fast the greens were, or how long it was, or tight or
anything, and he was just drumming everyone then.
People bagged on him because of his swing, but let me tell you the
truth, I have him on high speed camera, and no one ever looked more
like Hogan from the top down past impact, and I have never seen a
golfer hit the ball with such pressure before of since. And what I
believe to be the 5th accumulator, he did it more than anyone ever..
So to end my rant here… I knew my little swinging thing was not going
to cut it in this league of crafty players, that were all hitters and
dynamics was the name of the game..
I went home, and after talking to Mac when he was down under, I
changed over to hitting, and gladly so.. within two years I was hitting
the ball with much more force and control, and found myself in the top
300 in the world after a win in Canada and some other good finishes.
That was as good as golf got for me, and the rest of my saga is a whole
other story.. lol
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Cliffmanley
OK, I start my backswing with my shoulders, turning until my wrists
have no choice but to break. This is done totally without thought now,
I’ve been doing it for a few years. Sometimes I will consciously shorten
my backswing that is the only variation here, I use this with all my
clubs including my putter.
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May 08 2008 06:33
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2820 posts
If I have been playing regularly and practicing I then start the down
motion with my hips, driving around, up and left, letting my arms
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Member since 2008
follow when they have to, as my arms begin to follow I release from
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the top like a big coil spring. This results in one of two things with my
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driver, either I hit it straight and 300m + or if I don’t release quite all
the way through then I will push right. Is this swinging or hitting, it
sounds like swinging to me.
However, if I haven’t been playing much I leave the hip drive until
much later in the swing, I am not sure if I start the swing with my hips
here, I don’t feel like I do, it seems to just be a turn where everything
sort of stays together and there is a much later release. I still feel that
I drive left and up with my hips. This means I still hit the ball around
280-300m but I can work the ball easier, left or right at will. This
sounds like I am hitting?
The two swings aren’t a lot different, just the release point isn’t as
early in swing two.
Circumstances have kept me away from competitive golf for about 8
months so my game hasn’t really been tested, but I shoot in the mid
70s most days without any real practice. Tension doesn’t enter the
equation at the moment due to this lack of competition, but that will
change i am sure. Mentally I feel stronger than I ever have, my
capacity to relax is without question, and I do Pilates twice a day so
the spring is oiled no doubt about that….
Cliff Manley
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Bio
Lagpressure,
You mentioned sit down, I’m very happy to hear this,for years I never
understood why doyle would say sit down,until I became a
biomechanist,hence I’m a T.G.M man all the way. BY sitting creates
down force down through your feet, creates axis tilt and hip tilt,
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May 08 2008 10:12
allows you to load hard and then fire your body as you have
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1237 posts
mentioned, a misconception alot of people have is rotate hips first,
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Member since 2008
and doesn’t allow time for loading correctly, instead of tilting first
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a tilt of hips or axis tilt or downward motion of the hands and arms
can’t keep up with any type of rotation, This is why some many people
OTT, if they learnt to sit first, there hips tilt and they get axis tilt and
they can load properly. sitting on the down swing is the beginning of
the kinectic chain, creates down force from the feet, hips tilts, axis
tilts, hips rotate, then upper body rotates, arms and hand fires into
impact. every thing double mass x times velocity.
hips 300frp,upper body 600frps,arms and hands 1200frps and club head
2400frps fps=frames per second,
Lagpressure would like to talk more with you and learn some more
I’m a T.G.M boy use biomechanics to teach T.G.M , helps me give
students the feeling of the correct mechanics.
my email is bome77@bigpond dot com
Go
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iseekgolfguru
Lag’: the bowlegged thing I only ever heard the term specifically used
by Bill Skelley who used to work with Lynn Blake before he headed off
into the finance world. Did you ever run into him in your travels? Bill
was a fellow who never did his TGM paperwork yet was a man who
could describe in lay terms all the gear. I learned a heap from him.
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May 08 2008 11:16
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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Enjoying the threat. Thanks for sharing as the golfing world loves
hearing this sort of stuff and encourages them to keep searching.
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lagpressure
Cliffmanley
Without seeing your swing I would ask you this as far as hitting or
swinging,
Do your arms and wrists feel like wet noodles through the hitting area?
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May 08 2008 11:23
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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Is your finish kind of high and then maybe falls to a lower position?
Or do you feel like your arms stay in tight to your body through impact
and you are fighting any kind of roll of the wrists?
Does your finish feel around the body and then up?
One of the great things I learned from Doyle was the concept of the
hands being very firm on the club (grip) but the wrists totally free and
flexible. Most people associate a firm grip with stiff wrists, and a light
grip with loose wrist. Doyle really taught me how to have a very firm
grip with very loose wrists. I believe this to be one of the first and
most important elements of educated hands…
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spike71
Hi Lagpressure,
Thank you for your phenomenal posts!!! It is great to have a G.O.L.F.
thread to allow us a deeper look into precision and power. I can see
you and the Dart having a couple of whiskeys and B.S.-ing into the wee
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May 08 2008 11:25
hours! I was lucky enough to do that and left with more knowledge my
brain could handle….still incubating :)
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993 posts
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Member since 2006
Your insights into Peter Senior’s skill should be heard World Wide. I
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loved watching him on T.V. and would have bent over backwards to
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see him live.One of the things that was interesting to me was how he
stood up into his finish with his right side. His move looked to be very
“body friendly”.
I too have switched to a hitting pattern and have thoughly enjoyed its
accuracy and reliability. Drive Loading against the backswing has
eliminated my concerns for good geometry that I relied on during
swinging. The forces just want to seek out their own alignments. Is this
your experience too?
Also, I am by no means an expert in TGM but absolutely believe in its
principles. You mentioned a 5th Accumulator. Are you alluding to the
bent right wrist?
Thanks,
spike
There is no present like the time.
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lagpressure
Hi Guru,
I too never took the TGM exam, as I have never been an official
teacher, but I did spend a lot of time on tour working with some of the
guys that seemed interested in what I was doing. I think I was more of
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May 08 2008 11:45
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1430 posts
an early test subject for TGM. Grant Waite and I used to spend a lot
time sharing ideas, Carlos Espinosa, and Vic Wilk who were all fine
players and tour winners and we spent a lot of time together shedding
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Member since 2008
concepts late into the night over a beer or two. I agree with most of
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what Mac says too, but I don’t agree with everything he says. Mainly I
am not a fan of his abrupt plane shift from hands plane to shoulder
plane, and then back down. It is certainly covered in TGM components,
but in reality Mac’s hands come in higher at impact than where he
starts them. Now he would argue that this is merely a result of the
outward forces from the tremendous rotational speed he generates,
but I will tell you that Hogan turned very fast and Peter Senior even
faster, and their hands came in lower through impact.
Depending on shaft flex we know too that the shaft flattens the lie of
the club some, maybe half a degree and maybe more with looser
shafts, so all the more reason to keep those hands in close and low if
you are using radial acceleration and hitting. I am 6 ft tall and have my
irons set at 1 degree flat. Even my old stuff.. I have 10 sets of vintage
irons that I rotate between rounds. I just love all the different feels of
some of those timeless blades. I am still all persimmon too, but don’t
get me started on all that! lol
The closest thing to a flat plane I ever saw was Moe Norman. I talked a
lot with Moe, played with Moe, and I probably have some of the best
video footage of him from 1987 when he still ripped it pretty good. Red
Deer CC in Alberta, all kinds of shots and angles all at 10K shutter
frames..
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lagpressure
Lynn Blake
Sounds all to familiar … Was he good friends with Bruce Summerhayes?
I am sure we crossed paths if he was in the Doyle camp back in the
early 80’s
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May 08 2008 11:51
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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jeffmann
Muntz
You wrote-: “So where should a swinger feel the power is coming from?
Is it a sort of fly wheel effect with the torso / shoulders spinning the
passive arms down until the club is released at the last moment with
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May 08 2008 11:51
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759 posts
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Member since 2007
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educated wrist / hand action? Or is the R arm pushing still a source of
some of the power?”
I think that Homer Kelley adequately answered this question in TGM.
He stated that a swinger uses a triple barrel swing (involving the
loading and release of 3 power accumulators – numbers 4, 2 and 3
which have to be released in that specific order). Power accumulator
number 4 (angle between the left arm and upper torso) is the source of
most of the swing power in a swinger’s swing – as a flywheel effect.
Homer Kelley stated that the downswing pivot action (flywheel effect)
is primarily responsible for powering power accumulator number 4, and
the faster the downswing pivot action the greater the swing power (eg.
Tiger Woods swing). Power accumulator number 2 (angle between the
left arm and clubshaft) is the second power accumulator to be released
in a swinging action and its power is increased with a delayed snap
release (where the hands turn around a small pulley in the late
downswing – one really needs to understand Homer Kelley’s “endless
belt” effect to really understand the pulley action). Power
accumulator release 3 is actually a transfer power action, and it
provides the least amount of power in a swinging action.
Power accumulator number 1 (straightening of the angle between the
right forearm and right arm at the right elbow joint) provides no active
swing power in a swinging action. The reason is that the centrifugal
action due to release of power accumulator number 2 is so dominant
that the right forearm cannot produce additional swing power in the
late downswing. The right triceps muscle contracts and straightens the
right arm in the late downswing in a swinger, but that muscle action
doesn’t cause the clubshaft to travel faster because the clubshaft is
already traveling at maximum speed due to the super-efficient release
of power accumulator number 2. If a swinger can actively use power
accumulator number 1 in a late hit action (thereby becoming a
switter), then it suggests that his centrifugal action is too slow/weak.
By contrast, in a hitter, power accumulator number 1 is the major
source of swing power and it overrides any centrifugal action due to
release of power accumulator number 2. In fact. the sequence of
power release in a hitter is 1, 2, 3 – and the release force of power
accumulator number 1 actively drives the release action of power
accumulators number 2/3 as an unitary action (rather than the
sequential release of power accumulator number 2 and then 3). A
hitter can use power accumulator number 4 to a certain degree, but
there is a limit to the use of power accumulator number 4 in a hitter’s
action because the hitter needs the right shoulder as a backstop to hit
from – the hitter primarily uses the right shoulder as a launching pad
for the right arm’s muscular throw-out action.
Jeff.
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iseekgolfguru
LB was in Homers second bunch of guys and works over East. Not sure
Skelley ever worked with Ben though. GW worked with my original TGM
mentor Chuck Evans a few years back.
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May 08 2008 11:57
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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lagpressure
Spike,
I love hitting too.. the best thing is I don’t have to practice at all to
keep the ball on the course, and there have been times since my
retirement where I went over a year without touching a club. One year
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May 08 2008 12:07
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
I went out with my father, having not played in over a year, and I shot
68 at Oak Creek CC in Sedona which is a decent test RT Jones track.
Now I am not saying this to toot my horn here, but to make a point…
there is absolutely no way I could have done that swinging with rusty
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hinges!
Now getting back to the 5th accumulator, what you were saying about
Peter Senior and his finish.. that is it .. you nailed it.. it may not look
conventional, but the dynamics of him just ripping the shaft back up
the plane, from the lowest position to the highest did nothing but keep
the forces on the shaft well after impact making every humanly
possible effort the have the hands moving faster than the clubhead,
and in doing so seeking the impossible holy grail of holding the flex to
the ball, past or beyond.
Now whomever has been taking these High speed photos of shaft flex
and saying it is not possible, do we have any of Peter from the late
80’s?
Show me that and I’ll be a believer..
But even if it is not possible to do as some have claimed, the concept
of it is what I believe we all should be striving to do.
The closer you get to it, the better you will hit it.. I really believe this…
assuming you are hitting of course…
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iseekgolfguru
It would be cool to have the same sort of shots for Trevino, Palmer and
maybe there are some around of Kenny Perry. It is a line of thought
banned about with Tom W and I do not think he had any top class
hitters to take snaps of.
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May 08 2008 12:17
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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Which finish swivel option did you take when moving from swinger to
hitter and why the choice?
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KOC
Peter Senior and his finish.. Greg Norman…5th accumulator….
I am thinking Mr. Homer Kelly mentioned that even a wellaccomplished double barrel â“ utilize two accumulators can play
great golf.
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May 08 2008 12:35
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232 posts
accumulator is simply out-of line and in-line condition of power
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Member since 2005
package, it should also relate with pressure point.
And as far as I remember (don’t have the book in hand), Power
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When you mentioned about the 5th one, you said: so after Accumulator
#4 is spent, the body rotation, the left hip cleared, the right arm is
extended, wrist rotation and uncocking spent, what is left to keep
accelerating?
Do we have the 5th pressuer point? what is the 5th one that can be outof line and in-line afterward?
Are you talking about the spine? Hip thrust?
p.s. The 1989 Australia Open Champ was Peter Senior and the venue
was Kingston Heath GC not
Royal Melbourne GC
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Cliffmanley
Cliffmanley
swinging,
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Do your arms and wrists feel like wet noodles through the hitting
May 08 2008 12:54
2820 posts
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Member since 2008
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area?
Or do you feel like your arms stay in tight to your body through
impact
One of the great things I learned from Doyle was the concept of
the hands being very firm on the club (grip) but the wrists totally
free and flexible. Most people associate a firm grip with stiff
wrists, and a light grip with loose wrist. Doyle really taught me
how to have a very firm grip with very loose wrists. I believe this to
be one of the first and most important elements of educated
handsâ¦
No my arms don’t feel like noodles, but they do finish high, and hard,
usually they pull back in front of my face from almost behind my head.
I remember days when I have almost hit my self in the right ear with
my club.
My arms do stay in tight to my body but no I don’t fight wrist roll, not
usually anyway, there are times at the range when that happens but
only very rarely.
No my finish is usually very high, my back swing is fairly high as well,
and I do have a lot of shoulder turn, especially for a 48 year old, at
least that’s what my kids tell me…. ;-)
I have a firm grip, I have never used a glove so it essential for me to
have a firm grip, and my wrists are NEVER firm, they are always loose.
I am a feel player always have been.
Cliff Manley
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KOC
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May 08 2008 13:22
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232 posts
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Member since 2005
What is the 5th one?
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lagpressure
Cliff,
Sounds like you are swinging… without seeing the motion or pics..
Does Guru have an opinion here?
KOC,
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May 08 2008 14:39
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1430 posts
I’d love to see some back shots… to see how your right arm is
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Member since 2008
behaving on the way down..
your are a hitter…
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iseekgolfguru
Cliff sounds like a swinger.
KOCs photos there are of a hitter to my eye but its not KOC:)
Sumerhayes never met LB nor did LB actually meet BD until 2006.
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May 08 2008 14:43
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muntz
They should put a sticky on this topic. lagpressure has started off a
fantastic exchange of ideas, and I also started searching for other
accumulator topics in the back catalogue.
Still interested in Guru’s Q:
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May 08 2008 14:48
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4427 posts
Which finish swivel option did you take when moving from swinger
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Member since 2007
to hitter and why the choice?
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TheDart
It’s Peter Senior.
Lagpressure,
Great stuff. I really enjoyed the 5th accumulator. Trust a Chinaman
like KOC to spoil a good story.
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May 08 2008 15:13
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2266 posts
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Member since 2006
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What you describe I have been calling rhythm and teach it by saying
keep your shirt buttons up with the club. The opposite to quitting
which the golf swing is a “natural” for.
Thanks for expanding our worlds.
The hit/swing stuff is good. Most of us are doing these things and don’t
know it. It sounds obvious but if we know what we are doing life gets
easier.
I started with McHatton and Ben and was not happy till I found
Kykendal and Norman and saw Drive Loading (stiff wristed push).
Swinging is using a rope, hitting, like using a stick with stiff wrists, it
depends on what your girlfriend likes the best. Sometimes a clear
picture can help. You can do either hard or soft.
For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.
Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range
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Toolish
Isn’t Senior Edwinized now?
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May 08 2008 15:57
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3521 posts
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lagpressure
Finish swivel…
I don’t remember the specific component name of my finish swivel.
Haven’t pick up my book in years.. but I do know what I do and why.
I do everything to save as much of my hip rotation until after impact,
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May 08 2008 16:19
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1430 posts
my upper arms packed hard against my body, I have spent #1, #2, and
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Member since 2008
#3..so 4 really has to fire hard. To do this I use the ground, by
so I have a lot of #4 to get the club over to the 4rth parallel. Keeping
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wrenching my feet together, (squeezing them together hard) firing the
left knee into a straight position, and keeping the left wrist partially
cocked still. I turn my torso as flat as I can so that the left shoulder is
moving away from the ball as far as possible. The hands are firm and
stiff. Once I am at the 4rth parallel.. I then fight the direction of the
true impact plane (elbow plane) and then use the rotator cuff muscles
in the shoulders to raise the upper arms off the body again pulling the
club and shaft off of it’s very flat plane and use the #3 pressure point,
but this time it is slightly a bit more underneath and I just pull the hole
thing up as hard as I can to do everything to keep the club and shaft
moving and I like to feel that I am reaching maximum hand speed just
past the 4rth parallel. Now this is a feel thing in my attempt or futile
attempt to maintain the acceleration of my hands beyond the ball. I
actually leaned this technique in a martial arts class. In other words, if
you are going to chop through a pile of bricks, you must concentrate on
moving your hand past and beyond the point of impact. So whether or
not I can hold the flex to the ball or not, it is truly my intent to do so
with every swing of the club, from driver to putter.
Now at arriving at my finish, I like to get my torso rotated to it’s
maximum angle, I would guess about 30 degree beyond perpendicular.
My spine becomes a bit more upright, arms are slightly bent but really I
try to finish with them as straight as possible.
The clubface should be at right angles to my shoulders, and I try not to
cock my wrists, and with a short iron, my clubshaft might be about 45
degrees down from skyward. Of course with a driver the momentum of
the club, will bring it down to below parallel, probably through the
ears looking from behind, but I an resisting all of this.
The reason I do so much resistance is to put as much pressure on my
pressure points right to the end… PRESSURE IS FEEL!
I do realize that by pulling the clubhead out of orbit, as compared to a
swingers dump and full roll hinge release, I lose clubhead speed,
but the amount of feel this puts in my hands gives me the ball control I
need to position the golf ball around a course, so I am playing a game
of strategy, rather than a game of “rip and find”
By becoming a better athlete, and using things like an impact bag, and
a fan club, I got a lot of my power back, but this time I had a swing
that didn’t need much oil, and hits consistent golf shots under pressure
when you need it most.. and when you are going up against the best in
the game, you better be able to repeat it… if you want to have any
chance…
To be honest, I wouldn’t be afraid to play anyone on an old style
course that requires precise shot making… at least for one round..
anything can happen. Of course assuming we are both using persimmon
and blades.. but that is another topic..!
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live4golf
lagpressure..is it is not too rude, who are you? – or maybe you have
said and I am too slow to pick it up???
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May 08 2008 16:23
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2395 posts
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Member since 2007
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iseekgolfguru
“Parallels” Can you give us a “visual” as to what these refer too to
build a clearer picture.
In your finish swivel motion do you keep a Flat Left Wrist or allow it to
Bend? For hitters these are both options.
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May 08 2008 16:27
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8159 posts
Feel allows us to be aware.
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Member since 2003
Awaress allows us to control the machine.
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Pressure is indeed feel.
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davego
lagpressure..is it is not too rude, who are you? â“ or maybe you
have said and I am too slow to pick it up???
A bad day at golf is better than a good day at work.
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May 08 2008 17:01
1447 posts
Member since 2007
It is for Lagpressure to decide himself, but I believe we have the
pleasure of getting years of knowledge from a professional who won a
bit more than the Canadian Open. That may have been a little insight,
but If i’m on track, there were a further 7 PGA wins you can add to the
list.
As they would say in ‘Waynes World’ ” We are not worthy” but shit, a
real pleasure to have you on board and the learning curve will only
continue with your valued input.
I wish…..
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KOC
4rthâœParallelsâ•I guess lag is talking about the release point….
Matin Hall used to use 5 times parallels to describe the club parallel to
base plane line.
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May 08 2008 17:06
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232 posts
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iseekgolfguru
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May 08 2008 17:08
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8159 posts
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KOC now you just have to have a vid link to that MHall reference:)
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lagpressure
Oh, who am I? here is a clue…
http://www.sunbowl.org/index.php?
option=com_content&task=view&id=124
click that link… look for the guy who shot the same score TIger Woods
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May 08 2008 17:33
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
shot 10 years later when he took the title.
that would be me…
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davego
Welcom John. Boy was I way off line, from your earlier post indicating
a Canadian Open win at -17, I had you pegged for Steve Jones. Never
mind, you’ll do:) LOL.
See from your bio you are write into The Golf Machine and your passion
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May 08 2008 17:44
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1447 posts
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Member since 2007
for Persimmon. Luvin the info you are putting out and looking forward
to you joining the rest of the ‘Brains Trust’ in providing us mugs and
the better golfers that head to this forum, your thoughts, incite and
instruction.
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I wish…..
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iseekgolfguru
Few Oaklahoma boys on that list that you would have ‘machine’
chatted too as well.
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May 08 2008 17:53
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8159 posts
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KOC
KOC now you just have to have a vid link to that MHall reference:)
Correction:
The forth time parallel as described by Martin Hall is not release point.
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I do not have the video put on my utube channel but 1-L-6 stated
May 08 2008 18:09
clearly enough.
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232 posts
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iseekgolfguru
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May 08 2008 18:12
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8159 posts
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Puuurrrfect KOC. Great teamwork.
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KOC
Trust a Chinaman like KOC to spoil a good story
Sorry…I don’t have this intention.
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May 08 2008 18:12
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232 posts
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iseekgolfguru
Dart is having a giggle KOC:)
By the way looking forward to that beer at the end of Sept KOC. Make
sure the San Mig is cold.
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May 08 2008 18:13
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8159 posts
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lagpressure
Yeah, Steve is a great player..
Most of my pro career was in Australia and Canada,
I didn’t go the PGA Q school often but did make the finals
one year, I think 89?
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May 08 2008 18:16
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
It was a tough call back then because to go through the US Tour school
I would have to give up my card in Australia, and if I didn’t make it, I
would not have anywhere to play until May.. but really I just loved
golf down in Australia, the courses were much more my style, the old
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MacKenzie tracks, lots or wind, tough conditions, really gamey ball
strikers kind of courses. I really wasn’t big on the stadium golf stuff
that was happing over here, I love tough tracks, but fair too. Too many
times I would play PGA THIS or TPC THAT and found myself often
hitting a fine shot and making double…I don’t mind making bogey or
double if I hit a poor shot, but I just couldn’t get into the Pete Dye
designs, and everyone over here thought he was god..
The courses seemed silly to me, all the moguls off the fairway, too
many flat lies in the fairway, I just couldn’t get a feel for what he was
trying to do. I preferred the courses that followed the lay of the land,
had a hazard or two around the green that you could work a shot into,
but all those railroad ties and ladders down into bunkers.
I think what I am trying to say is that I wasn’t in love with that stuff,
but I was in love with Royal Adelaide, or Kingston Heath.
In Australia,
Everyone walked, there were no golf carts anywhere back then…
purses were good if you spent your money there.. and I just really liked
the world tour-player flavor to the whole thing…I got to play head to
head with the games best, Norman, Faldo, and you find out how good
your are real fast..(not very!) I never played golf for the money, never
a factor for me at all.
I just loved golf and found the pro option as a great vehicle to improve
my game. I liked Canada a lot too. I did win the Windsor Charity Classic
in 1991 (17 under 68 67 67 69) with persimmon and blades which I still
play. Hitting all the way… I liked making birdies down the stretch to
win rather than leaking joint oil all over the course and trying to hold
on and trust my swinging hinges that were being cut off by the
pressure valves in my brain! lol
Hit to win baby!
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muntz
Is this lag?
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May 08 2008 18:31
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4427 posts
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Member since 2007
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lagpressure
Yeah the OSU Boys…
Holder wanted me bad, at that time I was Doyle’s top junior protege
and a lot of people were looking at me to be the next Clampett. Tway
was leaving the year I was to come in and Holder offered me Tway’s
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May 08 2008 18:36
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1430 posts
scholarship. It’s a great program, and I was impressed on my recruiting
trip there, but when it came down to it, I just was a California kid, and
spending 5 years of my life in Stillwater OK just seemed a bit too
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Member since 2008
drastic for me at the time.. I don’t think it was a mistake, I passed on
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BYU, a bit too straight, and USC I loved but too close to home, (Palos
Verdes) so Fresno worked perfect, and I was closer to Doyle and all
those great tracks in Monterey too.. Fresno had great support from the
community, 5 super courses and we were also hosting the NCAA
Championships in 1983. Our team was good too..
My senior year we had Tim Loustalot, Kevin and David Sutherland, Doug
Harper who was a two time all American and myself. 5 all Americans
going to the NCAA’s in 1986.. pretty strong stuff.
Geeze, that was so long ago, it’s hard to believe that much time has
passed.. lol great times a memories…
Sometime I’ll tell you the Kevin Sutherland story…
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iseekgolfguru
I had to smile a while back talking to Bobby C. We are the same age
and there was him saying he is back in training for the Seniors Tour…....
a few comments were passed over the table about “gee thanks for
reminding me where the grey hairs are coming from”.
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You run across Rich Zohol too?
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May 08 2008 18:41
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8159 posts
I watched Bob Estes trying driver out one day in TX. Must have had 20
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Member since 2003
from the rep and slowly worked out “yeah this one will do.”
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Just interested how did you come across ISG? Its a long way from the
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USAs normal golfing channels.
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lagpressure
yes, that is Lag!
A friend of mine from the college days has been putting up some wiki
links and got a hold of me so I helped him out with some of the stuff
for the page.. it would be nice if a lot of the guys from the past had
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May 08 2008 18:47
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
stuff up there and linked in.. I’m trying to make a list of all the All
Americans that went though FSU but the NCAA doesn’t keep a
complete list, nor does FSU.. Coach Watney is still there after all these
years so he would know, might just have to ask him, or have him do it..
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lagpressure
It would be great to see more wiki on G.O.L.F.
and a list of players who have been disciples at one time or another,
and what they have done..
Not sure how that would work and many guys just tinkered with it
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May 08 2008 18:53
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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really.
Ben used to claim Bernhard Langer was one of his students but he only
took one lesson..
It really was a cult… lol
still is?
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lagpressure
Zokol played a lot when I was up in Canada in the late 80’s…
I was always kind of a controversial guy wherever I went, swinging
mops on the range or any # of crazy drills I would do..
Often I used to like to just take divots without a ball.. If I could take a
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May 08 2008 19:04
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1430 posts
swinging well… so one day on the range I hacked out a square about
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Member since 2008
3×5 feet, and Dick Zokol comes walking up while I was talking to Grant
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dozen divots that all looked the same it was a good indicator I was
Waite, and he looks at this bare patch on the range and says
“I didn’t know Mark Mc Cumber was playing this week! Grant and I
looked at each other, and we weren’t sure if we should laugh, or run..!
he looked kind of pissed off… lol
It was just one of those funny moments…
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iseekgolfguru
Less of a “cult” these days as the net has exposed G.O.L.F. to a bigger
audience. Still not many teachers of it though growing.
Spike throw your list up here for us.
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May 08 2008 19:05
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8159 posts
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live4golf
...thought you might have been Peter Senior…..talking yourself up :)
(this post was intended to be 100% humourous)
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May 08 2008 19:15
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2395 posts
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Member since 2007
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lagpressure
ISG,
I think I came across this while I was trying to find Greg’s e mail
address.. somehow I found a link to this and saw some G.O.L.F. posts
and thought it might be fun to learn a few things, share a few things,
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May 08 2008 19:17
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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and maybe even play some golf with some machines if any are around
the SF area…
I am finding myself playing a lot more golf lately, maybe because I
found a wonderful old school course that is nearby, that not many
know about, or maybe just are not interested in anymore, and I go out
in the afternoon and play in a stiff wind coming off the SF Bay, and
most days I am the only one on the course.. it’s so beautiful, silent,
very zen really, I really don’t like to play with people in carts, and not
big on hearing that high pitched driver sound, I find it really disturbing,
like finger nails down a chalkboard is the best way to describe it.
Kris Moe and I are playing soon and we are going out will all old stuff.
This course I play is perfect for persimmon, but if I hit new stuff 300
it just makes a joke of the course, and I really like using all my irons
during a round.
MacKenzie said three long irons, four mid irons and three short irons
test the golfer well.
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KOC
Dear Lagpressure,
Nice to have you here. My uploaded photos are indeed Peter Senior. I
can see his finish style is similar to Greg Norman…haha…and me :}
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May 08 2008 19:25
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232 posts
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Member since 2005
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Bio
Lagpressure,
Thanks for your knowledge and stories keep them coming : )
I’m off to edmington, in canada, in August (pardon spelling)
do have a nice tough track in mind to play there?
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Will be heading to the USA but not sure where yet.
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May 08 2008 22:59
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1237 posts
I’m interested in how you built your swing? you started with educated
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Member since 2008
hands? the process you went through? How long did it take?
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L.P. Have you written a book , bout your days on tour, being a machine
boy, ?
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Styles
Its certainly great to have a new, informative and knowledgeable
member in the brains trust.
Hi Lag, I am in N Ireland and am getting coached in the TGM principles
by Guru. We’re having big success, you can see shots taken at the 17th
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at The Old Course which are the closest I can get to ‘before’ and
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May 09 2008 00:51
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3714 posts
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Member since 2007
I’m pretty sure I’m a swinger (I was when I took the wife down to a
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neighbours party recently haha [joke!]) but can hit with the best of
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‘after’.
them if a punch shot is called for.
You can see my swings here:
March 2008
January 2008
Road Hole March 2006
The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes
mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.
The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have
nothing to do with trial and error
The Dart
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lagpressure
bi0mechanic
when you get to Edmonton, go south down to Ponoka and play
Wolf Creek…
It is one of my favorite courses on earth.. a real classic old style track
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May 09 2008 02:11
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1430 posts
The tee shot off the fourth from the left tee is the tightest driving hole
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Member since 2008
I have ever played… I used to wonder if could hit the fairway with a 5
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with lots of natural beauty, a very fair but terrorizing challenge.
iron.
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Loren
Great to hear from you lagpressure.
Stillwater’s my home town. Was taught basics by Labron Harris, Sr. as
a kid. Played 12 and under with Labron, Jr. and his brother. Not in
their league.
I live in Oakland, CA now. I’m interested in the “old school course
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May 09 2008 05:56
nearby” that you mention.
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905 posts
I didn’t get serious about the game until ‘86 and picked up Ballard’s
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Member since 2007
book. Joined the Sunnyvale club, a traveling club tournament schedule
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comprising reasonably priced public courses within 250 mile radius, 58
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tournaments a year.
Been a “machiner” for about 3 years now. Retired, I play practice
rounds at Monarch Bay, close to home. I study TGM night and day it
seems. Totally occupied with it.
There’s a GSE at The Bridges, I understand.
Sorry if this got too personal.
(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK
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jimper
Hi Lag,
My name is Jim and I live in San Jose. I notice that you play with Kris
Moe who is a heck-of-a stick. From my understanding, Kris is now
teaching Gary Edwin’s right-sided swing. I know that Kris has spent a
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May 09 2008 07:26
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15 posts
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Member since 2005
lot of time with my teacher in Burlingame who is Gary’s right-hand
man in the states.
Very interesting posts, welcome aboard!
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Jim
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lagpressure
Hi Loren,
Let’s go play some golf soon,
I play during the week, free most days with a day two notice..
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May 09 2008 08:57
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1430 posts
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I have a great old track we can play and golf it around..
send me a contact…
Member since 2008
John
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lagpressure
Kris is a wonderful teacher, he can make it a fun experience,
and he is no stranger to G.O.L.F. concepts.. We go way back to college
days and toured together in Australia and other places..
We are teeing it up soon with persimmon, and I can’t wait to take his
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money! lol
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May 09 2008 09:02
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
Toolish
Great to have a player of your calibre on board.
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Can’t say I agree with you on the equipment front, but each to their
own.
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May 09 2008 09:28
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3521 posts
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Member since 2004
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lagpressure
Thanks Toolish,
It’s nice to be here,
I have always felt that the best way to improve the game is to improve
the stroke of the golfer. The equipment is really just fitting to your
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May 09 2008 10:56
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
size, body type and lie, loft all that.
The Golfing Machine offers an incredible opportunity to improve the
dynamics of one’s motion. I believe this is where a golfer is best to put
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their energy, not at the local pro shop with the latest gimmick.
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Toolish
I too agree that the latest isn’t absolutely the greatest. People trying
to buy their game are wasting their time unless they work on swing
dynamics for sure.
But a larger headed titanium driver with a graphite shaft that is well
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May 09 2008 11:32
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3521 posts
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Member since 2004
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fitted is a lot easier to hit well and get good distance and forgiveness
from than a smaller headed persimmon driver. And perimeter weighted
irons with a nice wide sole and some offset are soooo much easier to
hit than the butter knife blades!
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iseekgolfguru
Gimmicks, sheesh there are a few thrown out there to suck in those
bucks. I got into this business via club making and then TGM. Together
its a great combo.
I remember a day on the range in PHX with Chuck Evans hitting his old
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May 09 2008 11:48
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8159 posts
wooden wood out into the back lots. Another chap had a go with it and
then his own super duper blooper 400cc effort and it was almost a
dead heat. Almost over 300 yards being about +/-10 yards. Fair enough
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Member since 2003
the new club went a little further but it rather proved the point that if
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you can hit the sweet spot, life is good.
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Homer I believe was a fan of blades to know when you were missing
the sweet spot. I practice with muscle backs but do not play with them.
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lagpressure
Guru I am glad you brought this up about blades…
I have had a few discussions with people about the pros and cons of
perimeter weighting and so forth.
The Golfing Machine speaks very loud and clear.
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May 09 2008 14:56
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT!
The computer can only respond to the information it receives,
RELIABLE FEEDBACK is everything. PERFECT feedback comes to your
computer (brain) from the sweet spot, through the shaft, through the
grip, through your hands and sends a vibration to every cell in your
body whether you like it or not.
If you hit the ball 1/2 inch off the sweet spot with a blade iron, you
get great NEGATIVE feedback… we know that we must have educated
hands, where do you think this education is coming from? From both
hitting the sweet spot and NOT hitting the sweet spot. Trial and error
over and over…...
Now if you think you are getting ahead of the game by diluting the
purity of the sweet spot, I can assure, you are doing yourself no favors
by not giving your hands the proper education through reliable
feedback. Hopefully you are here to improve in the most efficient
manner possible.. and personal mastery of your own golfing potential is
on your compass in this great quest.
Now if you insist on slowing your progress down to better G.O.L.F.
keep using those PWI’s… !
If you apply the right physics and geometry with properly educated
hands, you can master the art of fine ball striking, I have no doubt…
and you don’t have to hit 500 balls a day to do it. The proper drills and
body training can be done (a lot of it at home)... But let me warn you,
do not think you can cheat the “sweet spot/ computer interface” that
supplies the brain with what it needs to give you PRECISION!
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Toolish
You are kidding aren’t you? If you are ready to listen even a perimeter
weighted iron will tell you that you have missed the sweetspot, the
technology is not good enough to fully cover your misses. If you can’t
feel the miss then you are not allowing yourself to feel it.
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May 09 2008 15:07
3521 posts
Isn’t the general idea of golf to shoot the best score you can? It is not
about having the most perfect swing with the most perfect impact.
While on course the help of a perimeter weighted club will make your
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Member since 2004
misses less of a problem therefore allowing you to score better, which
in the end is the aim of the game.
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As for practicing with a blade then playing with perimeter weighted
clubs I would think you are tempting fate a bit there too. Learn the
feel through mechanics while practicing with one club then grab a
different club to play with. I guess you can MOI and weight match the
clubs, bend to ensure loft and lie are the same, freq check and spine
the shafts to get as close a match as possible, but even then the COG
of the heads will be different and the look will be different….that said,
I have never tried practicing with a blade, maybe I might learn
something.
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TheDart
Isnâ™t Senior Edwinized now?
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Toolish,
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May 09 2008 15:14
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2266 posts
I think it’s like when someone gets TGMed they don’t look different to
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Member since 2006
other golfers they just look better.
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iseekgolfguru
Toolish: I guess my take on this is that its fine to beat your educated
hands to learn something with the MBack where learning is the key. It
is silly if you are not perfect to try to score without as much help as
you can find.
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May 09 2008 15:17
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8159 posts
I think you will remember my blades I play with are heel and toe
weighted rather than pure muscle backs. Still get a good sting from an
iffy swing without losing quite as much with the MB.
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Member since 2003
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Just know that each club will fly a different distance unless you have
the specs pretty darn close. ie know how far your scoring clubs will go.
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lagpressure
Unfortunately I am not kidding…
FEEDBACK IS PARAMOUNT
If you want to improve the precision of your swing, you need to be
getting true feedback to educate your hands… it’s all they have..
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May 09 2008 15:20
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
garbage in garbage out..
The good news is, the better you get, the less this is really an issue..
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iseekgolfguru
Cold winter mornings hitting balls sure wakes you up in the learning
process. Those rabbit skulled balls give as much feedback as a hammer.
Small story was watching a well known club maker chap called Bill
Totten talking to pro from the Harvey Penick golf school. Pro was
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May 09 2008 15:35
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8159 posts
leaning on a vice at the time. Bill slapped the back of his hand. Pro
was not too happy with a “bleep that hurt”. Bill knowing said pro was
not the sharpest pencil in the case grabbed a hammer and said “hey
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Member since 2003
put your hand back there”...bugger me he did. Mind you he did remove
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the hand pretty fast when he realised there was a hammer in play. The
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point was hand or hammer you get feedback. I think they were talking
about sensicore shafts at the time rather than iron head types.
The more feedback you get the faster you could well learn.
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Aussie_Bomber
I may be missing the point here but I can only take it as I read it. So
prior to making a statement on this topic, I will err on cautious side (I
have learnt from my past mistakes! haha) and seek further
clarification…
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Lag Pressure:
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May 09 2008 17:21
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1289 posts
Are you recommending that even rank beginners and average joe
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Member since 2008
hacker, who struggles to break 100, ditch PWI’s for blades in the name
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of improving their game? Or are you aiming this statement at the more
intermediate/advanced golfer who wants to go as far as they can in
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golf?
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lagpressure
I think it is important to understand that everyone has different
reasons for playing golf. For some, it’s an excuse to walk in the park
with good comrades. On the other end of the spectrum, there are
those who seek a greater spiritual discipline, much like a mystical
martial art, where one learns from a guru and walks the hot ember
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May 09 2008 17:35
path on their way to a bed of nails that just might give a glimpse of
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1430 posts
enlightenment.
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Member since 2008
If I were to play a 7600 yard course, I don’t think persimmon would be
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the best option to shoot a fine round. I would play the gear that the
course was set up for. To take a modern atom smasher out to Cypress
Point, for me, that would make no sense either. Holes like 17 would be
so out of context it would really be silly. Vic Wilk gave me a driver that
I hit 50 yards further than my favorite Eye O Matic persimmon. Who am
I kidding? Only me really.
Again, this is just speaking for myself, but my goal each round is to
make good golf swings… to feel the correct sensations that make my
motion one that I believe will lead to good golf shots.. All I can do is
commit my variable energy to making good solid impact from tee to
green. My score is a reflection of the collective motions I have made
that day. Scoring is only the by product of my activities.
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lagpressure
Aussie_Bomber
Your question is only one that you can answer..
What are your motivations and reasons for playing golf?
For me, it was all about the pristine pursuit of highest excellence.
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May 09 2008 18:00
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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Here is a quick story,
I was in College when the Ping Eye 2 came out. Our coach ordered a
set for everyone on the team and believed we would have an
advantage on the competition if we used them. This sounded good to
all of us… so I played and practiced with them for a month. I wasn’t
really sure I was hitting them better, so I went back to my blades.
When I did, I couldn’t hit them at all! It was shocking, and I thought,
what the hell did I do? The pings were not telling me where dead
center was, my swing therefore got somewhat sloppy, and I didn’t feel
this was the right direction for me to go. Other’s felt the same way,
and a few of the guys stayed with the pings.. the one’s that stayed
with the pings were not the best strikers I can tell you that.. I would
say with some certainty that cavity backs hurt the pure strikers, and
help the not so pure strikers. So from the tour perspective, I would
again guess that it didn’t change the winning score each week, but it
brought a lot more guys into the battle to make the cut on Friday.
For me, the choice was easy…
If you were my student, and you said, “John, I want to be a fantastic
ball striker within two years and I am ready to do the work, drills, and
give it my all” we would be in my garage fitting you with a nice set of
blades, adjusting the lofts and lies, blow torch and all…!
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Aussie_Bomber
Lag Pressure:
Even though you didn’t directly answer my question you indirectly
clarified it for me with your post previous to mine and with the final
paragraph in reference to me.
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May 09 2008 18:41
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1289 posts
switching to blades for improvement would not be an absolute. For the
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Member since 2008
average hacker that wants to enjoy their game, ease some of the
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frustrations the game offers, not devote serious time to practice and
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My point was unless your goal is to be the very best ball striker around
improve their scores as much as possible, I believe they should take
advantage of every piece of modern golfing technology they can…
PWI’s, 460cc Titanium drivers, etc..
I understand you are a purist, I consider myself a modernist – 400460cc’s of Titanium all the way.. ; )
As far as my goals…
I am now purely a Long Driver, my goals are to hit the ball as far as is
humanly possible! I am driven and motivated to maximise every
potential I possess. Without sounding arrogant to the rest of ISG or to
any of my Long Driving friends that read my posts, I want to be the
longest driver in Australia and possibly become Australia’s first World
Long Drive Champion! I only say this because I believe in aiming high –
you are only bounded by the limitations you place on yourself. The rest
is about working harder and smarter then your competition, seeking
the best advice you can get and having an unwaivering determination
to succeed.
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Styles
great minds think alike Lag :)
On Wednesday after golf, I lifted an old persimmon 3 wood (Wilson
Staff Tour) out of my locker and put it in the boot to use next time I’m
out. I’ll fire the 5,7 and 9 irons from my Ram Tour Grind set in as well.
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May 09 2008 21:27
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3714 posts
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Member since 2007
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Lets see what my striking is like after a year of using Cally X-20s!!!!!
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The Dart
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NickE
i agree that if you want the feedback you have to play blades plus they
have come along way since i started with my Maxfli dp-30
The Player who expects a lesson to ’take’ without subsequent practice just isn’t
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being honest with himself or fair to his professional
May 10 2008 00:15
gary Player
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60 posts
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Member since 2008
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LookingForLag
I still bring my old Apex 1 iron to the range to practice with, I always
felt that it helped. My current set is KZG ZO blades but I do carry a
hybrid now. I learned to play with blades and when I bought new irons
a few years back on the launch monitor and on the range I hit the
blades better than the cavity backs. Maybe it is mental for me.
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May 10 2008 00:45
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40 posts
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Member since 2008
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lagpressure
Aussie_Bomber
Good luck with the long drive competitions..
Maximum swing radius, four barrel power package, full roll duel
horizontal hinges, drag or float loading too…!
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May 10 2008 03:59
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
Maximize your swinging techniques I would think to achieve your goals..
The endless belt effect….....................................................
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lagpressure
Seve grew up as a kid having only a blade 1 iron..
learned to hit flop and even bunker shots with it….
talk about feedback..
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May 10 2008 04:01
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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lagpressure
Certainly there are two schools of thought on golf and technology.
When you make radical changes to a game that is steep in tradition,
you are bound to have a lot of controversy..
From my viewpoint I see golf in three ages..
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May 10 2008 04:48
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
The hickory age
The steel/ persimmon age
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The Titanium age
The wonderful thing about TGM is that you can apply the technological
concepts put forth by Homer and they would be applicable to any age,
or style of play.
The hickory age, your average expert would drive about 200-220
Steel shafts put that same player out 240-260
Now 280 plus.
I wonder if baseball went to grapefruit over-sized titanium bats, and a
hotter ball… how would that effect the game? They could make bigger
ball parks I suppose, and of course pitchers would be wearing
protective gear too…
I see chess and golf as games of strategy and skill.. the different pieces
are like different clubs in the bag, in that they have different powers…
would chess be more exciting and enjoyable if the pawns were given
new powers? could move two spaces instead of one and also have full
diagonal domain? Maybe the king could move like a queen?
If these changes were made in these sports or games, would that give
more enjoyment to the player and or the fans as well?
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Loren
Lagpressure, a belated response.
Here’s a contact, a surrogate short-lived e-mail address:
[email protected]
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May 10 2008 05:42
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905 posts
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Member since 2007
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Aussie_Bomber
Lag pressure:
Thanks for the advice, really appreciate. I don’t understand any of it,
as I have only started reading TGM a couple of days ago but once I
develop an understanding I will put it into play.
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May 10 2008 10:09
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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Now I have to comment in regards to your comments with regards to
progress in technology.
With regards to baseball, aluminium, titanium and composite bats have
been in play since the 1970’s. They were initially developed in the
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1920’s. They are utilised in every form of baseball up to Major League
level. Their non use in Major League level has nothing to do with a
traditionalist point of view, it is a safety issue! The infielders and
pitchers would be in lethal danger if MLB power hitters were in
possession of metal bats! Fans would have no drama seeing more home
runs. As a former baseball player who played at a national level, I can
say that metal bats are in full usuage in International competition such
as the Olympics – Did it destroy baseball? Hell no! Scores at the
Olympic level between the top nations have not blown out to 20 run
contests!
With regards to chess, do they not have stop clocks in play at most
international competitions to speed up the pace of play? Chess
discovered a long time ago that people would not watch 8 hour
matches – hence they progressed to attract fans back.
In regards to golf, is putting a halt on technology hurting anybody but
the average Joe Hacker? The US Open last year saw a score of +5 win
the tournament, with all modern technology in play! Courses can grow
deeper rough and narrower fairways and reduce lower scoring, this is
evident in the US Open. The US Open record for the lowest tournament
score is -12, prior to Tiger the lowest score was -8 which has been
achieved 6 times, the first being in 1948 with Ben Hogan. Is technology
on this stage really hurting the game?
What do fans want to see? Low scoring, big drives, excitement. Why
are players like Tiger and John Daly so popular? They possess an
exciting power game that puts bums in seats! Would fans turn off the
TV or not show up to tournaments if guys started to regularly shoot in
the 50’s? If guys started to hit booming drives? I think you would find
you would attract more fans!
With the advent of Gen-Y instant gratification and adreneline charged
excitement is craved in sports. Home Runs, 300+ metre drives, birdie
fests are what the fans are wanting to see. Does breaking records hurt
the viewing capacity of sports? No way, it enhances it. Majority of
sports fans watch the Olympic games in the hope that someone will run
faster, jump higher or further than has ever been humanly possible
before. The athletes know this, they also know financial rewards for
such achievements are high – hence the drugs in sport epidemic. If fans
accepted and embraced mediocre performance would anybody hit the
steriod road?
I believe Golf is in a crisis period. I have been speaking to people high
up in Golf’s organisational bodies in recent times whilst planing my
own tournament. Sponsorship dollars are drying up, participation rates
are falling, TV audiences are dropping. There will always be a place for
golf’s traditional aspect. However more needs to be done to add an
excitement value back to golf. How I don’t know? I do know other
sports are realising this and are looking at ways to “hype” up their
contests.
Cricket here is a game steeped in tradition. Did World Series Cricket
lift the profile of the sport bring new fans back to the game? Has the
advent of Twenty-20 taken cricket to a new revival? Yes. What do fans
crave? Excitement. Short duration, Instant gratification.
There will always be a place for traditional golf. However with the
advent of the sports marketing revolution, new forms of the game must
be developed to satisfy what is a new adreneline hungry sports public.
(IMHO) Traditionalist may frown upon the advent of Long Drive
contests but I truly believe that golf should embrace the concept to
give adreneline hungry fans an outlet. Matchplay golf is a successful
format in this respect – head to head battles, rivalries.. sell tickets!
Progress will never be halted, I think for the sake of golf’s growth it
should be embraced! Golf’s tradition will never die, let’s not let its
marketability as a great sport die either.
I am ready to be spanked on the forum now! But I am happy put the
cards on the table. My goal is to see golf flourish, not stagnate
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spike71
Less of a âœcultâ• these days as the net has exposed G.O.L.F.
to a bigger audience. Still not many teachers of it though growing.
Spike throw your list up here for us.
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For some reason the upload is not working. I’ll keep trying.
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May 10 2008 11:39
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993 posts
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Member since 2006
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There is no present like the time.
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lagpressure
These are great points, and certainly relevant arguments..
There have always been long drive contests, and I agree that they do
make a hit with fans, when I was playing the Canadian Tour in the late
80’s a fellow named Kelly Murray used to have long drive clinics each
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May 10 2008 11:49
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
week, and he would be doing all kinds of things like hitting balls off
the top of the CN Tower in Toronto or over some gorge or river…
people loved it.. but they would still come out to watch the
tournament too.
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even when Kelly would miss the cut…
I don’t see a problem with putting a clock on golfers or chess players..
speed of play has been a problem for decades.. If I were king I would
make a few rules changes to the game for sure, with regard to lost
balls, and provisionals..
Question?
Are they still using wooden Cricket bats? is the ball hotter now?
how has that effected things?
If baseball went the high tech route in MLB, would fans really like to
see shortstops hitting 100 homers a year?
If they made the bat 3 times as thick, easier to hit…? would that be
good?
We could eliminate 3 putts in golf by making the hole 5 times a big.
We’d see a lot more golfer’s in the 70’s for sure, and tour pros would
routinely be in the 50’s … Is that good for the game? it’s traditions?
maybe, why not?
I’m just putting these questions out there…
I think most believed golf was a game of tradition once everyone got
used to steel shafts and the 250 yard drive in the 1930’s.. it really
didn’t change much for the next 50 years.. nothing major really..
Golf is a different game now, and the cat is too far out of the bag for
things to go back..
Is Tiger the best ever? I have no idea… not even a clue..
If he was playing persimmon with similar gear and shooting 20 under at
Augusta with blade irons similar to those of golfs past… If Augusta was
still only 6800 as it used to be with no rough .. we could draw some
safer conclusions…
The Augusta of the past was a completely different game than it is
now. It looks more like a US Open.. target golf and you are seeing more
winners that look like US Open type winners. Andy North, Scott
Simpson were not the top players of their time.. good golfers no doubt,
but the Masters always seemed to champion the world’s top players.
Mike Weir is a fine player, but Masters champion? Zach Johnson? I used
to beat Mike Weir.. I never used to beat Nick Faldo. With all due
respect for Mike and Zach, my point is I think the insane rough at US
Opens makes it more of a crap shoot. It saddens me a bit to see
Augusta have to take such measures to try to keep the scores from
getting to low… I really don’t think today’s players are much better,
the equipment is for sure better.
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KOC
If you have time, watch THIS regarding golf club technology….
Tom Wishon “Past, Present, and Future of Golf Club Technology”
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May 10 2008 11:58
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232 posts
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Member since 2005
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Aussie_Bomber
Lag Pressure:
I am pleased with your supportive comments re Long Drive, you are
one of few traditionalists that have that view point. We as Long Drivers
are not trying to become “Golf” but we believe that we could enhance
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May 10 2008 13:05
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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the image of golf with the Gen-Y crowd and adreneline junky sports
fans and possibly attract more people to be involved with what is a
great game. Long Drive’s growth in the US is phenomenal, Australia is
in its infancy. However recent talks I have had with some “power
brokers” in Australian Golf indicate that they are starting to recognise
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our value in total Golf sport promotion. Talk of adding Long Drive
events to major golf tournaments/pro-ams/junior events as spectacle
to provide total golfing entertainment value for all who attend is
definitely on the horizon. Hell we would invite any tour pro or PGA pro
into a Long Drive event to promote the game of Golf. It saddens me
that we lost the promotion skills of Paul McNamee to AFL football as
Long Drive exhibitions were not far away at major golf tournaments.
With Regards to other issues:
Would MLB fans reject such a development to see more homeruns? How
big was the obsession with Barry Bonds getting to the record? How big
was the race between McGuire and Sosa? Why do funs love the All Star
Homerun derby? It is giving them what they want to see, massive
displays of excitement! I can tell you on a international level “new fad
hi tech bats” have made no difference to home run infested games and
high scoring encounters. Games are still strategic and 1-0 affairs
between top class nations!
Your argument about making bigger, wider bats goes to the extreme
but I can see your point.
Cricket bat development over the years has certainly changed. Bats are
thicker, edges have been streamlined and wood has been redistributed
to provide more power. Has it hurt the game? No, the human element
is still in play. Bowlers have improved. The cricket ball has improved
and changed with balls swinging more now then in the past.
As athletic conditioning improves so too does performance. Golf is only
starting to display this with Tiger possessing a more athletic phase of
development. It will continue to evolve.
Not all change is bad, the world around us is constantly evolving,
peoples values are changing. If we stand still as a sport, we get over
taken by others that provide for the public’s desire for instant
gratification and craving of high levels of excitement/entertainment. I
can understand your frustration on a purists level and also agree with
your beliefs as far as not all change is positive. But sadly it is
inevitable in today’s modern society and unfortunately golf cannot
remain untouched by it.
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lagpressure
I have never been concerned about golf as a popularity contest…
between other sports.
In high school, golf was for nerds and geeks.. the cool guys played
football or baseball… even cooler was to drop out and surf…
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May 10 2008 14:56
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1430 posts
future Playboy centerfold anyway.. go figure.. she thought golf was
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Member since 2008
cool.. go figure! lol
I didn’t like being so uncool, but somehow I found myself dating a
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I have always loved long drive contests… I think the last one I was in
was in 1986 NCAA Championships at Wake Forest. Hit it 297 and
finished 7th with persimmon.. I always considered myself pretty
average in length so that was fun to finish that high..
I hear people hit it like 400 yards plus now in the contests.. I have
really been out of that loop.
Looks like we’ve hi jacked this thread..
Lets get back to G.O.L.F.
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Aussie_Bomber
Im not attacking this from a coolness perspective, I am interested in
golf being more marketable, getting back lost sponsorship dollars and
reversing the current participation and TV audience decline… but its
not going to be solved in a forum thread. I enjoyed the chat though…
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May 10 2008 15:25
You are quite correct with players hitting 400 plus yards in
competition. Big Mike Dobbyn recently set the longest drive record
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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Back to G.O.L.F
lagpressure
KOC
with a 551 yard bomb at a charity event!!
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Thank you for the Tom Wishon Lecture… I
Tom may know a lot about technology in golf equipment,
but Tom does not know G.O.L.F or he would not have said
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May 10 2008 16:28
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1430 posts
what he believes to be true about the future of golf equipment
and custom fitting to a players personal swing. It’s amazing he
can stand so close to the forest and not see it.
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Member since 2008
Congrats to all of you that are here, Tom is looking in the wrong
direction..
On another note,
I have a nice set of 1952 Tommy Armour Silver Scott Irons
and a set of 50’s persimmon MacGregors.
Ok gentleman, place your bets,
He can take any technology to the course and I’ll go out with crappy
old antiquities and a lot of lag pressure,
I know where I’ll have my wager..
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Bio
Lagpressure,
I can see your point as well, In fact when I fit people, I get the irons
made to old standard lofts, modern equipment the lofts are lower and
golfers can’t hit them and this is why the only use up to 5irons, a 5iron
loft and length of today is equivalent to a tradtional loft of a 3iron, so
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May 10 2008 16:50
imagine the loft of what a three iron of today is equal to.
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1237 posts
We aren’t hitting the ball any further, but it’s big companies marketing
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Member since 2008
to sell longer hitting clubs, delofting irons, has destroyed alot of
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peoples golf and have alot to answer for.
I am with you technology hasn’t really improved all they have done is
changed lofts and added headaches to my students.
Since I have taken this approach and gone back to traditional lofts my
students games have improved out of sight, then can at least get the
ball in the air.
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lagpressure
Wishon goes on and on and never addresses the most absolutely
important fundamental in golf…PROPER IMPACT ALIGNMENTS.
YOU MUST SHOW THE GOLFER WHERE THEY SHOULD BE, SET THEIR
CLUBS TO THAT IDEAL AND FORCE THAT SOFTWARE INTO THEIR
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COMPUTER! usually much flatter than where they are now..
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May 10 2008 17:25
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1430 posts
Lie angle is SO important.. most golfers hands come in way too high,
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Member since 2008
they go in for a fitting, then are doomed to when they are fitted with
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irons that are too upright.. (not for their current swing, but for their
proper impact alignments where they should be)
HOW LOUD CAN I SCREAM THIS!!!
The flatter they can swing the straighter they will hit it. Tall people
may have an advantage with certain G.O.L.F. dynamics but..
Have you ever tried to come over the top and hit a big pull shot or
push one way right…. hitting a teed ball off your knees?
When you come over the top from a knee shot you hit it lower…
and lower is usually IN PLAY!
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lagpressure
Ok,
A secret is coming to you all…
Has anyone ever studied a martial arts form that addressed the Chi
center of the body?
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May 10 2008 17:40
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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Anyone know where this is?
I took a Ta’i Chi course from a master instructor, myself knowing
nothing, I took him to the golf course and he watched me hit shots
and afterward he bowed to me and called ME his master! lol
As golfers we have the potential to master the true Chi energy center
of the body.
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Aussie_Bomber
KOC
Thank you for the Tom Wishon Lectureâ¦ I
Tom may know a lot about technology in golf equipment,
but Tom does not know G.O.L.F or he would not have said
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May 10 2008 17:55
what he believes to be true about the future of golf equipment
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1289 posts
and custom fitting to a players personal swing. Itâ™s amazing he
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Member since 2008
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●
can stand so close to the forest and not see it.
Congrats to all of you that are here, Tom is looking in the wrong
direction..
On another note,
I have a nice set of 1952 Tommy Armour Silver Scott Irons
and a set of 50â™s persimmon MacGregors.
Ok gentleman, place your bets,
He can take any technology to the course and Iâ™ll go out with
crappy old antiquities and a lot of lag pressure,
I know where Iâ™ll have my wager..
Do you want to take a long drive wager??? hahaha… ;)
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lagpressure
Sure, but you only get one swing and it has to land in a 17 yard
fairway..!
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May 10 2008 18:09
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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Aussie_Bomber
No worries, what’s the wager??
Just because you are long doesn’t mean you are not accurate! ;)
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May 10 2008 19:09
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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TheDart
Wishon goes on and on and never addresses the most absolutely
important fundamental in golfâ¦PROPER IMPACT ALIGNMENTS.
YOU MUST SHOW THE GOLFER WHERE THEY SHOULD BE, SET THEIR
CLUBS TO THAT IDEAL AND FORCE THAT SOFTWARE INTO THEIR
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May 10 2008 20:50
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2266 posts
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Member since 2006
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●
COMPUTER! usually much flatter than where they are now..
Lie angle is SO important.. most golfers hands come in way too
high, they go in for a fitting, then are doomed to when they are
fitted with irons that are too upright.. (not for their current swing,
but for their proper impact alignments where they should be)
HOW LOUD CAN I SCREAM THIS!!!
The flatter they can swing the straighter they will hit it. Tall
people may have an advantage with certain G.O.L.F. dynamics but..
Have you ever tried to come over the top and hit a big pull shot or
push one way rightâ¦. hitting a teed ball off your knees?
When you come over the top from a knee shot you hit it lowerâ¦
and lower is usually IN PLAY!
That one should go in the meditation file. It is should be the first
thought after you hit a pull hook.
●
TheDart
Ok,
A secret is coming to you allâ¦
Has anyone ever studied a martial arts form that addressed the Chi
●
center of the body?
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May 10 2008 20:54
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2266 posts
●
Member since 2006
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Anyone know where this is?
I took a Taâ™i Chi course from a master instructor, myself
knowing nothing, I took him to the golf course and he watched me
●
hit shots
and afterward he bowed to me and called ME his master! lol
As golfers we have the potential to master the true Chi energy
center of the body.
The secret is to keep the center working past impact (sustain the Lag ).
Usually softer and slower than you think.
●
Bio
Lagpressure,
I’m not part of Tom Wishom camp
I agree with you and I believe alot of clubfitters, need a good boot in
the arse for not fitting correctly, I was introduced to T.G.M from day
one of my golfing days and taught to fit by Another T.G.M guy who is
●
●
May 11 2008 02:48
my coach, who taught me to fit to Proper Impact Alignments, I dislike
●
1237 posts
this hand measurement fitting and in static position, not in dynamic
●
Member since 2008
with Proper Impact Alignments, I wish the clubfitting world would take
●
on board what you have said. And thankyou I’m glad to hear there is
someone out there who can speak these words loud and clear.
Thankyou lagpressure for your contribution and this has helped me now
clarify what I have been doing as a coach and a fitter to be the right
way of do things.
Thankyou for sharing your information so far I have learnt a wealth of
knowledge off you, your information has helped me becoming a better
T.G.M coach, thankyou
●
lagpressure
The secret is to keep the center working past impact (sustain the
Lag ). Usually softer and slower than you think.
BIO,
Oh, such truth there…! The other day I was playing an old Miles Davis
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●
May 11 2008 04:14
●
1430 posts
same thoughts, how slow it seems to turn right around the core, but
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Member since 2008
the outer edge, you can’t even keep your eye it, as it moves so fast,
●
record, and watching the record spin around on the player… I had the
only 33 1/2 rpm.
Of course the difference being that in golf we are accelerating the
center. Something must be accelerating it. What is this?
I am always amazed at how “in the dark” people are about the
importance of acceleration in golf. Most people don’t know what
acceleration is.. they equate acceleration to speed. If I have one thing
to tell a golfer of any level, it is usually a quick lesson in the law of
acceleration, and then to move their perceived point of maximum
speed much further ahead in the swing than they think. Most golfers
believe they are trying to reach maximum speed at the ball. The
problem is… that to do this…your perception must be that maximum
speed is be reached after the ball.. long after the ball really.
Martial arts teaches that a strike must be focused beyond the point of
impact… why? sounds all too familiar.
The golf swing is not a conglomeration of static positions. It is a
motion, constantly moving and flowing within the discipline of a
cohesive body tension. If a golfer is striving for a particular position in
their swing, or look, they must work on a position that is past their
intended adjustment. All positions, once the swing starts it’s journey,
are a product of motions and dynamics.
If I want better impact alignments, I will work feverishly on what is
happening at the 4rth parallel, I can swing or hit into that position.
Even better yet, nothing will effect my 4rth parallel alignments than
what is happening at my finish. Nobody understood this better than
Moe Norman. Moe held his impact alignments right to his finish on
every shot, every time. It may have looked strange, but the ball never
thought so!!!
Does anyone know where this “Chi” center is?
●
lagpressure
DART,
Your quote there…!
The secret is to keep the center working past impact (sustain the
Lag ). Usually softer and slower than you think.
●
●
May 11 2008 04:16
●
1430 posts
●
Member since 2008
●
●
YES YES YES!!!!
Bio
Lagpressure,
Would this be the hip pivot, which is driven by your lower inner core
stomach muscles?
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●
May 11 2008 05:03
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1237 posts
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Member since 2008
●
●
Styles
Seve grew up as a kid having only a blade 1 iron..
learned to hit flop and even bunker shots with itâ¦.
talk about feedback..
●
I believe it was a 5-iron but hey, you probably played with him.
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May 11 2008 06:46
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3714 posts
●
Member since 2007
●
●
The Dart
●
NickE
I still bring my old Apex 1 iron to the range to practice with, I
always felt that it helped. My current set is KZG ZO blades but I do
carry a hybrid now. I learned to play with blades and when I bought
new irons a few years back on the launch monitor and on the range
I hit the blades better than the cavity backs. Maybe it is mental for
●
●
May 11 2008 08:42
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60 posts
●
Member since 2008
●
●
me.
I’ve had a apex 1 iron that belonged to MrHogan in Bag it was great!!
He had ground the top edge so it looked like a Knife unfortunalty dad
has it now.
gary Player
●
lagpressure
The Chi core
Dantian à¸•à¸±à¸™à¹à¸–à¸µà¸¢à¸™) Or “elixir field”. The focal point
for internal meditative techniques, specifically the physical center of
gravity located in the abdomen three finger widths below and two
●
finger widths behind the navel.
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May 11 2008 08:44
●
1430 posts
Now, knowing this ancient understanding, when my Taâ™i Chi master,
●
Member since 2008
watched me rapid fire a line of golf balls alternating each one with a 5
●
yard draw then fade in succession, the role of student – teacher was
immediately switched or polarized. He realized that, as I was hitting
these shots, my club shaft was dissecting the ancient à¸•à¸±à¸™à¹à¸–
à¸µà¸¢à¸™ through the impact area. He saw it right away and had
never played golf in his life, then simply bowed to HIS new master…!
I never took another Ta’i Chi class again, and he never took up golf…
the only thing that changed was the placement of the master’s crown
from his head to mine.
My point here is to share that we as golfers have an incredible
opportunity to not only understand some of the greatest secrets of
humanity, but to actually apply some of the highest forms of
metaphysical expression known in the universe…
In other words, this can be extremely powerful stuff, that can extend
far beyond the golf course.
I don’t want to sound too cosmic here, but there is a great saying by
Paramahansa Yogananda
“The seach for perfection is constant and clear”
Homer unlocked that door for Ben, Ben unlocked it for me, given that
opportunity, all any of us can do is turn the knob and enter, but only
by our own free will, what we do with that knowledge and experience
can only be guided by us.. one subject at a time.
●
TheDart
I still bring my old Apex 1 iron to the range to practice with,
I always felt that it helped. My current set is KZG ZO blades
but I do carry a hybrid now. I learned to play with blades and
when I bought new irons a few years back on the launch
monitor and on the range I hit the blades better than the
●
●
May 11 2008 09:07
●
2266 posts
●
Member since 2006
Iâ™ve had a apex 1 iron that belonged to MrHogan in Bag it was
●
great!! He had ground the top edge so it looked like a Knife
●
cavity backs. Maybe it is mental for me.
unfortunalty dad has it now.
betting is illegal at Bushwood Sir
Nick,
Did you get my number?
Paul H.
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Cliffmanley
Cliffmanley
swinging,
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●
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Do your arms and wrists feel like wet noodles through the hitting
May 11 2008 09:23
2820 posts
●
Member since 2008
●
●
area?
Or do you feel like your arms stay in tight to your body through
impact
One of the great things I learned from Doyle was the concept of
the hands being very firm on the club (grip) but the wrists totally
free and flexible. Most people associate a firm grip with stiff
wrists, and a light grip with loose wrist. Doyle really taught me
how to have a very firm grip with very loose wrists. I believe this to
be one of the first and most important elements of educated
handsâ¦
Well Lagpressure, I have video taped my swing, it has told me
something I wasn’t aware of, I’m taking it back inside so there is some
work for me to do with that. However if you fill like a looksee, then go
here…
Cliffs swing from behind, driver
Cliff Manley
●
Bio
Cliff,
Go back to basic Alignments, your aiming so far right, This is a key
factor to half your swing problems, Work on getting right your
alignments, Put a shaft down when practicing, Read thread on why
golfers aim right, Use the preshot mentioned, Aiming right contributes
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May 11 2008 09:49
to OTT. you’ll be amazed how much your game will improve when you
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1237 posts
correct this first.And all alignments
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Member since 2008
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NickE
Yeah thanks paul i’ll give you call this week to tee something up
Nick
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May 11 2008 11:22
gary Player
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60 posts
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Member since 2008
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lagpressure
Hi Cliff,
I wouldn’t worry so much about your backswing inside motion, I have
seen many fine golfers pull it inside and shoot 66. Bobby Jones?
I agree that Bio has diagnosed a faulty alignment situation, I believe
●
●
May 11 2008 11:37
●
1430 posts
●
Member since 2008
●
the problem has to do with the arms and hands not being properly
guided by the motion of the body.
In most simple terms it looks very handsy… disconnected. It’s a really
common problem. Golf just doesn’t work that way with much success.
Try this first,
If we think of the address position as having the shoulders at
(left 3 o clock) (right 9 o clock) then turn them back to 6 and 12
respectively. Place the hands no farther than 9. On your finish your
right shoulder is to be at 6 and even better 5 o clock. Of course the
left will be at 12 and better yet 11. Finish your hands at 3 and no more
than 2 o clock. This will get your body doing most of the work.
Take 100 swings a day, until you feel you have it down. It should hurt a
bit, and put you out of breathe. You should feel some new muscles
being used in the lower back area. Make sure you straighten you right
leg on the backswing, and the left on the follow through with a nice
sitting position in the middle.
Once you feel you have it down, take some divots without a ball,
and make sure they all look the same more or less. If you can’t take
consistent looking divots, you have little chance of hitting consistent
looking golf shots. Remember, the ball is just in the way of your
motion. When you get to the point that the divots look good, line up 10
balls in a line and then just strike them one after another.. Don’t try
to hit them far, just try to hit them solid. Notice where they go..
Are they going somewhere they usually don’t? If you are lining up to
the right, your brain is just doing what it needs to do, because your
motion is of such a nature to pull or hook shots. Thank your brain for
doing it’s job, Once you get your body doing the work and not your
arms and hands, your swing plane alignments will improve, your divots
will be straight, and now the ball has a chance to take it’s directions
from your new impact alignments, meaining good golf shots.
Garbage in garbage out… precision in precision out…
●
Aussie_Bomber
Lagpressure:
Your martial arts analogy makes perfect sense. I have trained in a
number of disciplines and when you stated striking beyond the target
the alarm bells went off.
●
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May 11 2008 12:04
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
●
In baseball it is the same the power point is beyond the ball (target).
The ball powers through the ball.
The same thing should occur in golf should it not? We become so ball
focussed many of us tend to hit at the ball rather then through it.
●
Is this what Homer referred to as feeling like the clubhead throws the
ball? (2-M-1)
Can you have a look at the SWING FAST or HIT HARD thread? Would
love your input…
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lagpressure
AB,
I have never owned a swing speed meter, but I think it would be
imperative for you to have one if your goal is to launch into the record
books for all things Long Drive..
●
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May 11 2008 13:48
●
1430 posts
head speed prior to impact but also speed after impact. It is not hard
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Member since 2008
to understand that the greater the clubhead speed after impact the
●
Homer is correct in that separation speed is not only effected by club
more energy is being transfered into the ball… sustaining lag pressure
and holding the line of compression, and maintaining a pre stressed
shaft through the impact area. Whether or not high speed cameras,
radar or other means of scientific monitoring applications prove or
disprove what is actually happening with regard to torque, shaft flex,
material density compression, and on and on… educated hands with
the help of the computer will make the necessary fine tuning
adjustments for you. The bottom line is that your INTENT is to
maximize acceleration through the hitting area. For this to happen,
you must feel, or perceive that maximum hand speed is happening well
past impact. Your ability to actually approach this “Holy Grail” will
have to do with many things, and there are all kinds of drills and
exercises you can do to move things in this direction.
Acceleration translates into lag pressure which translates into feel,
which for me translates into my ability to feel the club head in my
hands though the 1 – 2 and 3 pressure points. If I can feel the club the
ball is my oyster, and I can draw, fade, adjust trajectory and allow for
the magic to flow from my educated hands into golf shots that do
exactly what I have envisioned in my minds eye, hitting the green,
spinning the right way towards the flag and maybe even dropping into
the cup from anywhere within my range of distance possibilities. It’s
the most wonderful thing when all the science that we study becomes
nothing more than a look, intent, a motion, and a result that is the
product of our fine tuned intuition.
●
lagpressure
Is this what Homer referred to as feeling like the clubhead throws
the ball? (2-M-1)
This is a very good analogy as to what masterful golf feels like..
The fact that Homer could extrapolate such a feeling into words is
●
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May 11 2008 14:20
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
stunningly beautiful..
This is a classic example of “Learning Feel From Mechanics”
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Aussie_Bomber
LP:
I actually purchased a swing speed radar awhile back to make my
training a little more analytical. The back fence of my practice facility
is a 270 m (300 yard carry). I had been hitting it over the back for
●
●
May 11 2008 15:51
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1289 posts
●
Member since 2008
●
awhile when I decided to incorporate a radar into my practice as I
could not tell if equipment or technique changes were producing
quality results. By having a radar on my practice sessions I was able to
see any changes by the changes I produced in speed.
●
However this only measures approach speed. I have had a top approach
speed of 143 mph, however I felt some of my best drives (as far as the
ball accelerating faster – reaching the back fence quicker) have come
from drives in the 132-135 mph zone. Which made me ask was there
something else involved?
I have only just started to read TGM. Homer’s statements with regards
to the ball inheriting 70% of approach speed but 100% of the separation
speed made sense to me.
Homer’s further statement of the Clubhead feeling like it throws the
ball also struck a chord with me. When I feel I hit my longest drives it
feels like the ball/clubface impact occurs over a longer time frame.
The ball seems to “stick” to the face!
I have been ridiculed by some for this statement who believe impact
physics remain stagnant and clubhead approach speed is the only
influencing factor on ball speed. There is something else almost
“magical” that I feel at times occurring during contact – and this
definitely feels like a longer contact interval and therefore a better
energy transfer.
I wish that I could put into more technical terms to create
understanding but this is the best I can do.
I sense Homer eluding to the fact that something else is possible in
impact physics through his statements in 2-E, 2-C-0 and 2-M-1
I apologise for my explanations as I have been a feel player due to the
fact that there were no long drive coaches available and most
“traditional” coaches couldn’t understand that maximising power is my
ultimate goal over accuracy. I therefore had to teach my self to
produce higher swing speed and harder contact via taking mechanics,
translating them into baseball terms and feeling my way into them. I
now have TGM and guys like Bio, Guru, Dart etc who can explain
optimal mechanics to me. So I am endeavouring to improve my
descriptions.
You stated:
“Your ability to actually approach this âœHoly Grailâ• will have
to do with many things, and there are all kinds of drills and
exercises you can do to move things in this direction.”
Can you please elaborate on the types of drills and exercises I can be
doing to achieve this?
Many thanks for your response.
AB
●
lagpressure
Anyone saying that ball speed is only a result of pre impact clubhead
speed does not fully understand the properties of inertia, acceleration,
compression and so forth. Just smile and continue your pursuits.
As far as drills, do you have any video of your swing I could view?
●
●
May 11 2008 16:31
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1430 posts
●
Member since 2008
Drills are like prescriptions really… I would like to have some kind of
concept of what component selections you have working, power
package assembly points and so forth…
●
Even a series of high speed photos would be quite helpful..
●
Aussie_Bomber
Anyone saying that ball speed is only a result of pre impact
clubhead speed does not fully understand the properties of inertia,
acceleration, compression and so forth. Just smile and continue
your pursuits.
●
●
May 11 2008 16:34
As far as drills, do you have any video of your swing I could view?
●
1289 posts
Drills are like prescriptions reallyâ¦ I would like to have some
●
Member since 2008
●
●
kind of concept of what component selections you have working,
power package assembly points and so forthâ¦
Even a series of high speed photos would be quite helpful..
Not as yet LP, I don’t have access to video camera at the present time.
But I will see if I can find someone who could do it for me and then I
will post it on a thread – so that everyone can pull me to pieces!
hahaha…
Thanks though LP
●
lagpressure
I’ll try to put up some swings as well, I don’t think I have taped my
swing for at least 10 years, but I can’t imagine it would look too much
different than it did then.
It’s nice to be playing again, this time truly on my own terms, and I
●
think for the first time since high school, I have the proper motivation.
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May 11 2008 19:03
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1430 posts
I love playing GREAT tracks, l love wind, lots of side hill lies, and I
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Member since 2008
need to be tested well with all twelve clubs in my bag. The course I am
●
playing now is just such a find… if I play late around 4pm, I usually can
walk a round in less than 3 hours, and usually don’t see anyone on the
course at all. Peaceful, solitude, beautiful views of the SF bay, and a
great challenge. I am still trying to find the right shots for me to play it
properly. Persimmon and blades put me in the right places on the
course, as the architect would have intended. I think a 65 or 66 is
within my grasp, as I have shot 70 my last two rounds there. It reminds
me a lot of The New South Wales Golf Club. Windy, trouble
everywhere… bad swings equal bogeys or worse. The third hole is a 190
yard three par into a stiff right to left wind to a postage stamp green
from an elevated tee. The left side of the green is bush. If you miss the
green right the ball rolls down a hill into a hazard. You just simply
have to hit the green or you make double! It is such an important hole
because it just sets the tone of the round early. If you make double
you are playing catch up all day.
If you survive or better yet, make a two, you really have a great
chance for a super round. I am very excited to be playing a course that
interests me… it’s been a long time..
●
Bio
A.B,
when I fly down tomorrow, I’ll bring my video camera, do some
footage to show L.P ,May even have to pull out the grease gun and
grease up my hinges and do some footage of myself and show people
educated hands applied with G.O.L.F with a busted back.
●
●
May 11 2008 19:08
●
1237 posts
●
Member since 2008
I’m very keen to measure your kinetic chain.
L.P that awesome, I admire your passion and the desire to play.
Thanks for the information and A.B’s questions, you filled a few grey
●
areas I always questioned myself. And what A’B was speaking about
isn’t an uncommon occurance,and see this with students often. I was
shot down in flames cause I stated according to several different L.
M’s , I had a swing speed of 85mph on average the od 90 max. At 13th
beach there is a hole 285 metres and iflew it on the green, I was told I
was bull dust this isn’t possible, 10 guys seen me do it, I could never
Answer how or why it happened, but now I have answer why thankyou
●
Cliffmanley
Hi Cliff,
I wouldnâ™t worry so much about your backswing inside motion, I
have seen many fine golfers pull it inside and shoot 66. Bobby
Jones?
●
●
●
May 11 2008 19:08
2820 posts
●
Member since 2008
●
●
I agree that Bio has diagnosed a faulty alignment situation, I
believe the problem has to do with the arms and hands not being
properly guided by the motion of the body.
In most simple terms it looks very handsyâ¦ disconnected. Itâ™s
a really common problem. Golf just doesnâ™t work that way with
much success.
Try this first,
If we think of the address position as having the shoulders at
(left 3 o clock) (right 9 o clock) then turn them back to 6 and 12
respectively. Place the hands no farther than 9. On your finish your
right shoulder is to be at 6 and even better 5 o clock. Of course the
left will be at 12 and better yet 11. Finish your hands at 3 and no
more than 2 o clock. This will get your body doing most of the
work.
Take 100 swings a day, until you feel you have it down. It should
hurt a bit, and put you out of breathe. You should feel some new
muscles being used in the lower back area. Make sure you
straighten you right leg on the backswing, and the left on the
follow through with a nice sitting position in the middle.
Once you feel you have it down, take some divots without a ball,
and make sure they all look the same more or less. If you canâ™t
take consistent looking divots, you have little chance of hitting
consistent looking golf shots. Remember, the ball is just in the way
of your motion. When you get to the point that the divots look
good, line up 10 balls in a line and then just strike them one after
another.. Donâ™t try to hit them far, just try to hit them solid.
Notice where they go..
Are they going somewhere they usually donâ™t? If you are lining
up to the right, your brain is just doing what it needs to do,
because your motion is of such a nature to pull or hook shots.
Thank your brain for doing itâ™s job, Once you get your body
doing the work and not your arms and hands, your swing plane
alignments will improve, your divots will be straight, and now the
ball has a chance to take itâ™s directions from your new impact
alignments, meaining good golf shots.
Garbage in garbage outâ¦ precision in precision outâ¦
Thanks Lag, I’ll try this, it makes a lot of sense, and will be easy to do
because you make it easy to visualise…
I have had times in the last couple of years where my divots were all
the same, very straight and consistent, but I was able to practice every
day, that isn’t possible right now unfortunately…
Cliff Manley
●
Aussie_Bomber
A.B,
when I fly down tomorrow, Iâ™ll bring my video camera, do some
footage to show L.P ,May even have to pull out the grease gun and
grease up my hinges and do some footage of myself and show
people educated hands applied with G.O.L.F with a busted back.
●
●
May 11 2008 20:48
●
1289 posts
Iâ™m very keen to measure your kinetic chain.
L.P that awesome, I admire your passion and the desire to play.
●
Member since 2008
●
Thanks for the information and A.Bâ™s questions, you filled a few
grey areas I always questioned myself. And what Aâ™B was
●
speaking about isnâ™t an uncommon occurance,and see this with
students often. I was shot down in flames cause I stated according
to several different L.Mâ™s , I had a swing speed of 85mph on
average the od 90 max. At 13th beach there is a hole 285 metres
and iflew it on the green, I was told I was bull dust this isnâ™t
possible, 10 guys seen me do it, I could never Answer how or why it
happened, but now I have answer why thankyou
No dramas Bio, can’t wait!! I can’t wait to get onto the program and
take every advantage of your expertise. Looking forward to k vest and
placing video on here!
As far as the knockers mate, we’ll just smile from now and keep doing
our thing! They may just read about it one day!!
Thanks for the great advice LP, look forward to hearing your views
when we can post some vision!
AB
●
905r
TGM? You are wasting your time guys. Homer is not alive, god bless
him. Do not think mechanical or too technical. If you do, you will be
very confused and will keep on shooting 85+ and this goes for the boys
on here who claim to play of 2.9 or something? For the life of me, how
can a person off 2.9 have 85 is beyond me? They must of hit some pure
●
●
May 11 2008 22:55
shots in that score? If you want to get better with your game no matter
●
1 post
what your level is at, it takes time but good time spent at certain
●
Member since 2008
things. It just amazes me after reading a few posts that so many
●
people here are on the shitter with their game. Why is this?.....Go out
and hit the ball and think about the hole, your best options on a hole
and if any idiot says that a persimmon head and butter heads will be
good for your game is a good thing as that is what is doing it for them
is having a lend of you… NO MATTER WHO THEY MAY BE OR CLAIM TO
BE. If you use a wood, wood..you are a relic from the stone age. I
guess I am having a go at Lag Pressure here….Bless the good old Tony
Penna’s….
●
finster869
TGM? You are wasting your time guys. Homer is not alive, god bless
him. Do not think mechanical or too technical. If you do, you will
be very confused and will keep on shooting 85+ and this goes for
the boys on here who claim to play of 2.9 or something? For the
life of me, how can a person off 2.9 have 85 is beyond me? They
●
●
May 11 2008 23:49
must of hit some pure shots in that score? If you want to get better
●
252 posts
with your game no matter what your level is at, it takes time but
●
Member since 2007
good time spent at certain things. It just amazes me after reading
●
a few posts that so many people here are on the shitter with their
●
game. Why is this?.....Go out and hit the ball and think about the
hole, your best options on a hole and if any idiot says that a
persimmon head and butter heads will be good for your game is a
good thing as that is what is doing it for them is having a lend of
youâ¦ NO MATTER WHO THEY MAY BE OR CLAIM TO BE. If you use
a wood, wood..you are a relic from the stone age. I guess I am
having a go at Lag Pressure hereâ¦.Bless the good old Tony
Pennaâ™sâ¦.
Ahhhhh, yet additional proof why we need an “ignore” button around
here!
●
Styles
@905R
wow, to think you took the time to come on here and spout off at
people you don’t even know!
You wouldn’t know a guy by the name of pranginka would you?
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May 11 2008 23:53
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3714 posts
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Member since 2007
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The Dart
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muntz
yair, this is someone with an axe to grind…
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May 12 2008 02:34
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4427 posts
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Member since 2007
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Aussie_Bomber
905R:
I actually feel really sorry for you…
Being able to survive on such little brain power must be a daily
challenge for you. I guess Charles Darwin’s theory of natural selection
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May 12 2008 06:28
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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is BS after all.
To all the kids out there please take this as a warning and…
USE PROTECTION!
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Mistakes like this are definitely possible!
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lagpressure
905r
Thanks for the post, I am one who welcomes controversy and
alternative opinions. I was actually throw off a board a couple weeks
ago for spouting my opinions about how corporate America has bullied
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May 12 2008 06:55
1430 posts
the USGA and R and A and now makes the rules for the game regarding
legal equipment. I am American and enjoy exercising my first
Amendment rights regarding freedom of speech. I felt my arguments
●
Member since 2008
about the corporate take over of golf that has taken place were very
●
legitimate, well articulated, and thought out. I also question why three
of the worlds majors are on U.S. soil, and personally I view the
Australian Open to be the 4rth major of the world.
If you look at the the list of champions through the 50’s – 80’s it
certainly looks viable for such consideration, great tradition also.
The U.S. PGA Championship, being a major makes no sense to me.
My argument would be that The Open, The U.S. Open are viable,
the Australian Open, and since The Masters is regarded as such a
hallowed venue, great tradition, and at one time, possibly greatest
test of golf, makes sense, and I think most world tour players love the
idea of playing in the Masters. I missed an invite by one shot in 1983
and still haunts me to this day!
Getting back to 905r, for most, golf is a mystery, and as TGM says,
“complexity is far more simple and workable than mystery”.
905r brings up a great point too…
The difference between playing and practicing…
I would agree that trying to think about swing moves while attempting
to execute golf shots is at best, a questionable approach.
Personally, I am extremely disciplined in regard to practice, flight
testing, and playing.
For me, all practice regarding swing adjustments, or changes is done
using drills and exercises. Once I believe the body is doing what is
should, I flight test.
Flight testing I line up ten balls and rapid fire them, therefore not
allowing my computer any additional time to be jamming up the hard
drive. If the balls are struck solidly, with favorable flight patterns, I
will then proceed to playing.
Playing is anytime I am attempting to shape, customize or design a
shot, whether this be on a range or on the course. Makes no difference.
Playing a shot requires that I assess the situation, I must artfully make
a choice of what kind of shot I am going to hit, what club I am going to
use, how I will shape the shot. Once these decisions are made, I must
let my mind construct the motion that the body must make, I have to
feel this in every cell of my body before I execute..
a quick little practice swing or two, and once I cull the feeling I waste
no time and just do it…
Now are far a equipment, I use the gear that is appropriate for the golf
course I will be playing. If I am playing an old style course that has 10
four pars, then I would like 3 of them to test my long irons, four of
them for the mid irons, and 3 for the short irons. If the course is 6800
yards then persimmon will do fine. For me to go out with modern gear
that I can bomb out there 300 plus, it does nothing for me. I mean can
a player of my caliber really get off on shooting 65 on some classic old
track? Does this mean I am now better than Ben Hogan was? I mean
who am I kidding. Now if I go out and shoot a pair of 68’s on such a
classic old track, with gear that the course was designed for, then
believe me, I will feel much better about it.. and will certainly sleep
good that night…
Also, I like the feel of persimmon, and blade irons just as a guitarist
might like the feel of their favorite Les Paul or Martin. No difference.
I do realize that my intention to play is for much different reasons than
most people. At this point I have no desire to compete against other
people. I don’t have a burning desire to “beat you”. I love hitting shots
in the wind, making great swings, hitting pro shots, and I don’t mind
posting a fine score that I am content with when the cumulation of my
efforts for the days round are tallied on the scorecard at the end of
the round. I am never ashamed of my score if it is higher than I think it
should be.. that is really quite a subjective view that I would be
imposing on it. It is the experience that I crave, the beauty of fine
tuning my craft and flowing my game across the lay of the land and the
forces of nature. Regardless of what my opinions are about the USGA
or how I believe the game has been sold out to profit in the
mainstream, when I go out tomorrow afternoon in a stiff wind and play
a course that was crafted over 100 years ago, all that goes away in
blink.
Now, what was your question again?
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Aussie_Bomber
LP:
Very nice response! ;-)
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May 12 2008 07:23
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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slinger
905r
Thanks for the post, I am one who welcomes controversy and
alternative opinions. I was actually throw off a board a couple
weeks ago for spouting my opinions about how corporate America
●
●
May 12 2008 11:24
has bullied the USGA and R and A and now makes the rules for the
●
250 posts
game regarding legal equipment. I am American and enjoy
●
Member since 2008
exercising my first Amendment rights regarding freedom of speech.
I felt my arguments about the corporate take over of golf that has
●
taken place were very legitimate, well articulated, and thought
out. I also question why three of the worlds majors are on U.S.
soil, and personally I view the Australian Open to be the 4rth major
of the world.
If you look at the the list of champions through the 50â™s â“ 80â
™s it certainly looks viable for such consideration, great tradition
also.
The U.S. PGA Championship, being a major makes no sense to me.
My argument would be that The Open, The U.S. Open are viable,
the Australian Open, and since The Masters is regarded as such a
hallowed venue, great tradition, and at one time, possibly greatest
test of golf, makes sense, and I think most world tour players love
the idea of playing in the Masters. I missed an invite by one shot in
1983 and still haunts me to this day!
Getting back to 905r, for most, golf is a mystery, and as TGM says,
âœcomplexity is far more simple and workable than mysteryâ•.
905r brings up a great point tooâ¦
The difference between playing and practicingâ¦
I would agree that trying to think about swing moves while
attempting to execute golf shots is at best, a questionable
approach.
Personally, I am extremely disciplined in regard to practice, flight
testing, and playing.
For me, all practice regarding swing adjustments, or changes is
done using drills and exercises. Once I believe the body is doing
what is should, I flight test.
Flight testing I line up ten balls and rapid fire them, therefore not
allowing my computer any additional time to be jamming up the
hard drive. If the balls are struck solidly, with favorable flight
patterns, I will then proceed to playing.
Playing is anytime I am attempting to shape, customize or design a
shot, whether this be on a range or on the course. Makes no
difference.
Playing a shot requires that I assess the situation, I must artfully
make a choice of what kind of shot I am going to hit, what club I
am going to use, how I will shape the shot. Once these decisions
are made, I must let my mind construct the motion that the body
must make, I have to feel this in every cell of my body before I
execute..
a quick little practice swing or two, and once I cull the feeling I
waste no time and just do itâ¦
Now are far a equipment, I use the gear that is appropriate for the
golf course I will be playing. If I am playing an old style course that
has 10 four pars, then I would like 3 of them to test my long irons,
four of them for the mid irons, and 3 for the short irons. If the
course is 6800 yards then persimmon will do fine. For me to go out
with modern gear that I can bomb out there 300 plus, it does
nothing for me. I mean can a player of my caliber really get off on
shooting 65 on some classic old track? Does this mean I am now
better than Ben Hogan was? I mean who am I kidding. Now if I go
out and shoot a pair of 68â™s on such a classic old track, with
gear that the course was designed for, then believe me, I will feel
much better about it.. and will certainly sleep good that nightâ¦
Also, I like the feel of persimmon, and blade irons just as a
guitarist might like the feel of their favorite Les Paul or Martin. No
difference.
I do realize that my intention to play is for much different reasons
than most people. At this point I have no desire to compete against
other people. I donâ™t have a burning desire to âœbeat youâ
•. I love hitting shots in the wind, making great swings, hitting
pro shots, and I donâ™t mind posting a fine score that I am
content with when the cumulation of my efforts for the days round
are tallied on the scorecard at the end of the round. I am never
ashamed of my score if it is higher than I think it should be.. that is
really quite a subjective view that I would be imposing on it. It is
the experience that I crave, the beauty of fine tuning my craft and
flowing my game across the lay of the land and the forces of
nature. Regardless of what my opinions are about the USGA or how
I believe the game has been sold out to profit in the mainstream,
when I go out tomorrow afternoon in a stiff wind and play a course
that was crafted over 100 years ago, all that goes away in blink.
Now, what was your question again?
Lagpressure i read the wrx and the members are somewhat like a
church but honestly i enjoyed reading your posts and ruffling their
feathers and s..t i laugh all the time when people knock tgm stack
&tilt on that forum their are so many parrots on that site and most
those guys giving advice over there would not break 100 in a us open .
Anyway i must admit this is one of the most interesting discussions i
have ever read regarding the 5th accumulator etc hogan stuff is always
fascinating and would like to hear a lot more.
The angle of approach v arc of approach and the swing types that they
match up and can a player combine the two?
●
Ditty
Sort of like rebuilding a vintage car and driving it to a rally! Why do
people do that? Because they enjoy the challenge and they can!
While I’m here – I have been silently following this thread and enjoying
all of your (LP) input so please accept my apology for 905r’s burst of
●
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May 12 2008 11:32
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4268 posts
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Member since 2008
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ignorance and arrogance – I don’t know this yobo but I’m all for the
wearing of protection to avoid such mistakes!!
Political Correctness is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media,
which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the
●
clean end.
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iseekgolfguru
905: Anyone can drive a car. Better drivers learn to be much more
aware of what is going on around them and how to control that car via
that increased knowledge. They can plan and react better than an
unskilled driver when needs be.
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May 12 2008 11:41
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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Those who pot shot at ANY golf lessons are those who do not see the
need for more skills, or are the tiny minority who just can do it without
much schooling at all.
●
Using knowledge is the key. Thinking about too many things when
standing over a ball is not what TGM is all about at all. It is about
fundamentals that all of us could or do use to hit the ball better…and
from that possibly score with a bit more consistency.
As LP put, “complexity is far more simple and workable than mystery”.
●
Ditty
905: Anyone can drive a car. Better drivers learn to be much more
aware of what is going on around them and how to control that car
via that increased knowledge. They can plan and react better than
an unskilled driver when needs be.
●
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May 12 2008 11:45
Those who pot shot at ANY golf lessons are those who do not see
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4268 posts
the need for more skills, or are the tiny minority who just can do it
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Member since 2008
●
●
without much schooling at all.
Using knowledge is the key. Thinking about too many things when
standing over a ball is not what TGM is all about at all. It is about
fundamentals that all of us could or do use to hit the ball betterâ
¦and from that possibly score with a bit more consistency.
As LP put, âœcomplexity is far more simple and workable than
mysteryâ•.
I think you may have missed my meaning and I don’t believe anyone
can drive a car because there is too much death on the roads by those
that can’t…. believe me I see too much of it!!!
clean end.
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iseekgolfguru
How sadly true that is and close to home in the last fortnight. 2 kids
from the Cricket/Footie club no longer with us. They were not as lucky
as Bio.
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May 12 2008 11:55
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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Aussie_Bomber
Very Sad Guru, my condolences!
Hey Ditty, you in the job? (emergency serivices?) Am a Melbourne Firey
so can understand what you are saying, gets a bit much at times eh?
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May 12 2008 12:40
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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Ditty
AB – I knew we had something in common when I saw your icon – my
dad signed me up with Essendon (as a member) the day I was born –
used to live at 29 Kalimna street Essendon – still get down there for a
game occassionally – my cuz still lives in Essendon with her family and
my bro lives at Geelong – annnnd as for being a Firie, yes I am – joined
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May 12 2008 13:02
Melbourne in 69 and did training at number 10 station Richmond before
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4268 posts
they moved to the skipping girl site – posted to the old Eastern Hill and
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Member since 2008
then North Melbourne, was a Z man for a while and did a few stints on
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the crash machine on north side then joined Queensland in 81. Nice to
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meet you!
clean end.
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lagpressure
Just getting off topic a bit,
I remember first landing in Sydney in 1987, I flew down from the states
a week early all alone, no room mate or traveling partner. I rented a
car downtown in Kings Cross, and I get in and I’m in the passengers
seat, looking to my right and seeing the steering wheel in the wrong
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May 12 2008 13:21
seat! It was the first time I ever drove on the left (wrong) lol… side of
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1430 posts
the road. The clerk hands me the keys and I look at him like, are you
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Member since 2008
kidding me? I’m just supposed to get this? It was really crazy and quite
●
dangerous the first week or two. I can’t tell you how many times I
wound up driving into oncoming traffic after a pint or two at the local
rugby union league with a couple friends. Making those right hand turns
from the left lane, looking at the oncoming traffic moving past me on
my right, and then turning into the far left lane was just a total mind
bender.. I might as well have teed it up at The Lakes in the APGA with
a left handed set of blades.. It really felt that strange..
This kinda makes me want to get out my diary of my first trip down
there in 87.. I kept a daily… and haven’t read it in years.. A lot of my
most interesting times in OZ were not on the golf course..!
PS, I realized one of my posts about the Australian Open I was off by
two years lol… 87 not 89… has it really been that long?
Does anyone remember when they canceled the final round at Royal
Melbourne because of the wind? I think it was the Australian Open,
can’t remember which year, but I remember Norman just picking up
his ball and walking off the course.. with the lead mind you… was that
87? anyway, I was there that day, I do know it was the final round
Sunday, and I was keeping Mike Ferguson’s card, and we posted our
scores as we had finished early. He shot 90 something, and I don’t
think I have ever seen a player so pissed off about course conditions..
It was totally insane, balls were literally being blown off the greens.. I
remember finding it almost dreamy or surreal.. Eventually we had a
players meeting in the clubhouse with the officials and we voted to
cancel the round.
I can’t remember the year, but I can remember that day! and I will
never forget the toughest round of golf I have every played in my life. I
think I shot 84 and was low man in my group..!
Somethings money can’t buy…
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Cliffmanley
I remember that day, it was amazing, I was watching on TV, we
laughed and laughed and admitted it was one game of golf that didn’t
interest me in the least….
It’s come close to being that bad since a few times, but the club has
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managed to avoid the problem by soaking the greens over night.
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May 12 2008 13:46
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2820 posts
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Member since 2008
Cliff Manley
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lagpressure
Cliff,
Do you remember what year that was?
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May 12 2008 14:44
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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KOC
Homer is not alive? YES…but, IMHO, Physic and Geometry of circle will
be with us…and as well as the complete teaching and learning TGM
system. It is all up to YOU. The principle of playing golf can’t be
charged unless you play the game on the moon….
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May 12 2008 15:08
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232 posts
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Member since 2005
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chilledbill
Lagpressure,
The sunday of 87’ was cancelled due to wind and they came back
monday – Norman won by 10.
Have enjoyed this thread and the insights into, and descriptions of, G.
O.L.F. so far Lagpressure. Your writing contains, and encourages,
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●
May 12 2008 16:11
passion and feeling for the game and has been an enjoyable and
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52 posts
educational read. Looking forward to reading more about hitting in
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Member since 2006
particular – A TGM video by Tom Tomasello displayed a more one
dimensional result with hitting – a slight delofting of the clubface
●
(lower ball flight) and a faded ball flight – but there are more options
with educated hands?
Thanks for your input, Chill.
●
NickE
lag
what is difference between the 2nd and third power accumulator?
when i read tgm it sound like homer is talking about the same thing?
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May 12 2008 17:57
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60 posts
gary Player
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Member since 2008
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iseekgolfguru
2nd is the wrist cock action
3rd is the rolling action #3 Accumulator
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May 12 2008 18:03
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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NickE
Thanks Guru
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gary Player
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May 12 2008 18:23
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60 posts
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Member since 2008
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lagpressure
CHILLBILL,
Educated hands will allow you to do all kinds of fun things, when I was
on tour and playing well, all I really had to do was just think it, and it
would happen, 5 yard draw, 3 yard fade, whatever… the relationship
●
●
May 12 2008 19:23
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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between the computer and the hands is wonderful especially when
they decide to be on the same team! lol
Beginners usually try to draw the ball with club head throwaway..
throwing the club at the ball, breaking down the left wrist and just
really putting up a prayer for a miracle.
When I was a swinger I used to rotate my plane line, or move the ball
back in my stance, then establish a new arc of approach which might
appear to be more inside out, I could close the face of the club and
then just swing and release as I normally would, or close and actually
re grip the club in this new postion if I really had to hook one.
During my hitting years, a draw was a manipulation of the shaft after
impact, kind of like ….hmmm this is hard to explain…
Say you are standing behind me, and after impact you would see my
hands and arms quickly disappear left behind my body.. now to draw
the ball I would cut my hands left, but feel as if the clubhead is staying
down the line much longer, so in a sense it is a feeling of pulling the
shaft out of plane… as if at the 4rth parallel, where the shaft would be
typically parallel to the plane line, in this case I would feel that my
hands would be hip high over my left ankle, but the clubhead would be
more fanned out to the right, almost pointing right of the target, and
not rolled at all. I came across this one day in practice, it was not
consistent with anything I had ever been taught, but to do this, it
would just put tremendous pressure in my hands, which of course is lag
pressure, and club head feel.. so if I needed to draw it 5 yards I
learned how much that felt like, and 10 yard would be much more
pressure and difficult.. the great thing about this is that it starts
becoming difficult to move the ball..
Wouldn’t golf be great if you felt you had to make huge efforts to work
the ball 5 yards either way? This is what it feels like to be a great ball
striker.. for the master striker, it’s not luck, it’s easy.
I love hitting because when done properly it gives me such better ball
control, I don’t have to feel relaxed and rubbery, I can feel tight,
tense, and hit great shots.. and this is what elevated my game to being
able to win tournaments under pressure. It was a great feeling to not
have to rely on zen breathing techniques to keep calm and relaxed,
but just have a golf swing that easily repeats on it’s own merits
regardless of my heart rate, thoughts of fear or whatever.
Things got to a point where it became difficult to hit bad shots..
I was fortunate to experience this for some time, and I believe that
golfs greatest players really live in this reality all the time…
They win consistently because it just becomes really hard to hit bad
shots.
It’s really worth it to master your hitting methods.. and to understand
what you are doing..
Be the artist and the mechanic…
●
Swedeas
Lag Pressure,
I like the word “think” in relation to being on a golf course. To think on
a golf course is danger and i do not mean shot to shot. Any decent
player has the thoughts in their mind of how to play the course before
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●
May 12 2008 21:02
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41 posts
they do it. As for your hacker, they do not give 2 hoots but want to
improve.
Yes, aim at a bunker and draw/fade the ball down the fairway. The
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Member since 2008
key is managing the course? How many golfers can aim at a bunker and
●
fade/draw off it? How many golfers can hit a certain shot to a green
below the hole or to a place on the green that is “in play”. NOT MANY.
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TheDart
Not Lag Pressure but,
What would it take for them to learn. NOT MUCH.
But it has to be mechanically sound. The smallest mistake in the
foundation tumbles the entire structure, and takes all the cleverness
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May 12 2008 21:11
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2266 posts
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Member since 2006
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out of it.
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lagpressure
Swedeas
One of the beautiful things about golf is that as you become a better
player, the face of the game changes from one of simply trying to hit
the ball around the course and keep it in play… to a game much more
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May 13 2008 05:08
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
●
intellectually stimulating…like a chess match of position, forward
looking strategy, and as dart says, cleverness.
I do believe that even the average golfer could do a great deal to help
their scores if they could realistically assess their own abilities, set the
ego aside, and hit shots that will give them the best chance of keeping
the ball in play for their skill level.
What club should I pull from the tee that will give me an 80% chance of
hitting the fairway? For me it is often not a driver, sometimes a 3
wood, even a 3 iron. I would much rather be in the fairway from 160
than in the rough or worse from 140.
The 14th hole at my club has a sucker fairway, I can hit 3 iron and I
will never miss the fairway, even with a poor swing of the club. If I hit
driver, the fairway bottlenecks at 240 yards to something about 15
yards wide, add an elevated tee and wind everywhere and I would have
to make a really pure swing just to have a chance of keeping it in play
down there with all kinds of trouble, hazards lurking.
I see people pull driver all the time and just swing away, and I don’t
think I have ever seen an average player who has a bit of distance ever
hit that fairway.
I think that just really shows where most peoples heads are at.
It might be interesting for an average golfer to go out and just make it
a point to hit every fairway, even if that meant hitting 7 iron off the
tee. Do the same thing on the next shot, and just take the big numbers
out of play. As the swing improves, gradually move the ball down the
fairway with more club over the weeks, or months. I bet we would see
a quick reduction in the handicap, but tough on the ego for sure..
●
Swedeas
Very true indeed LagP. On the fairway,always we hope and even if it is
a 2/3 iron off the tee that leaves an 8/7 iron to a short hole, so be it.
As another example, I could be 120m from the hole which is a wedge
but I will take a 9 or 8 iron more times than not due to wind, shape the
●
●
May 13 2008 15:32
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41 posts
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Member since 2008
●
ball into the green etc. I could be 150m out and have a 6/7 iron but
will take a 4/5 iron at times due to wind mostly.
I personally believe that taking one club extra on approach shots from
100m-200m and shaking hands with your friendly knockdown shot is a
bonus and many players need to try and grasp this shot. It ain’t tough
as I am sure you will know as it is actually easier (with some practice)
and will bring more consistent results. I suppose one may ask, “how do
you hit a knockdown 3 iron?”. I know you will be able to respond to
this. Ball slightly back, 75/80% swing and solid hands through impact.
For me, I take a slightly open stance even if I need to draw or fade it. I
may be off plane with my swing for these shots at times but it is what
your hands do through impact the makes a difference.
Lee Trevino comes to mind.
●
iseekgolfguru
A belated welcome to the forum Swedeas.
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May 13 2008 15:52
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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lagpressure
Swedeas
You are talking like a good player, shaping shots on the course, working
your shots in and with and against the wind.. it’s a level of golf few
people get to, but it is here where the real magic of the game lies.
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●
May 13 2008 17:07
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1430 posts
To start to feel the wholeness of the shot, from the motion of your
body, firing the ball toward the target, and in a sense feeling it all the
way to fairway or green. It is when we get into this zone that we can
●
Member since 2008
start to spiritualize the game… with TGM, we learn our feel from
●
mechanics, and then we take that feel and try to connect it to nature,
the lay of the land, wind, temperature, really focusing our energy on
the the total experience.
If I move the ball back in my stance, I have two options.. first I can
steepen the angle of attack, and punch the shot straight, or I can take
that same position, and rotate my plane line out to the right and take
a more shallow divot… and draw the ball back to my original target
line.
Lately I have been keeping my stance pretty square, even on shorter
shots, I do like to feel a fair amount of lower body rotation on the back
swing, even on partial shots, and opening my stance too much really
restricts my right hip rotation. Short pitch and chip shots seem to work
well with a significant open stance, but even on the shortest chips, I
like to get some leg action going to help with the rhythm. Just that
little delay at the change of direction gives the computer a spit second
more to make any last second subconscious
adjustments. This seems to really help the feel for distance.
It is true that with educated hands, you can draw or fade from both
open or closed stances…
It’s for this reason I don’t spend too much time trying to line up my
shots… if I feel slightly left or right of where I want to be, I just draw
or fade my shot a bit more, or less, from that stance, this really helps
me free my mind and stopped all the pre shot paralysis that used to
inflict my game when I was a younger player.
I am not using exact yardages anymore either, but trying to move into
a more intuitive zone on the course. 150 or 200 markers give me a
good idea as to where I am, then from there it’s just intuition.
It’s really amazing how accurate you can be with your distances if you
just really focus on your shot design, and how it is going to feel in the
body before you execute the shot. Once you quell the feeling, you just
step up to the ball, and release that feeling into the ball.
I loved watching Lee Trevino, he made golf look so easy..
great rhythm and he always looked so committed to the shot.
No look of hesitation, and he was a very quick player.
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iseekgolfguru
LP a comment in there about moving the ball back in the stance to hit
a draw will have a few heads being scratched. Would you like to
enlighten some on how hitting has the opposite ball position
requirements vs a swinger.
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May 13 2008 17:16
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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lagpressure
Ok,
I check my alignment by putting a club on the ground in front of the
ball pointing right to the target. next I put a club from the ball at a 90
degree angle that is now coming right toward me. Now if I plan on my
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May 13 2008 18:11
1430 posts
ball position being just prior to my low point, I would hang a club from
by left armpit (I am right handed) and let that club drop to the ground.
That club should drop right on the club I have laying on the ground that
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Member since 2008
is coming toward me from the ball. This would usually be just inside
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my left heel a couple of inches. (assuming a shoulder width stance)
Now if I move the ball back in my stance and keep my feet in the same
position, and I drop the club from my armpit, mark that spot on the
ground say with a coin, then from that coin, I place a club on the
ground from the coin to the new ball position, and I take another club
and put that at a 90 degree perpendicular to the club out where the
ball is, I have in a sense rotated my swing plane line to the right of my
original target or plane line. What I have now is a new swing plane line
that is aimed to the right of my original target or plane line.
Only difference now is that my stance is open to my new plane line.
Of course I could do the opposite too, I could move the ball forward,
and then drop a coin straight down from my armpit to the ground,
mark that spot, put a club on the ground pointing toward the forward
ball position, and if I place another club at right angles to the club that
is moving out from the coin on the ground below my armpit, I have
rotated my swing plane line to the left of my orginal plane or target
line. If I swing on this new plane line, I would just have a closed stance.
If you are taking divots of the same depth, from all three positions,
you are just rotating your plane line around from the same stance
position. The forward ball and the back ball might at first appear to be
closer to your body, but they are in fact the same distance. They will
appear to be in an arc if you were to look at them all at once.
This is an excellent exercise to get an understanding of different ball
positioning, and how you can hit draw and fade shots from a stance
that stays constant in it’s relationship an original ball target straight
plane line… with basically the same shot trajectory. Just work your
shots from the new plane line, back to original target line.
This is a great drill to help educate the hands.
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Aussie_Bomber
Wow… Very Clever! Never thought about it that way!
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May 14 2008 10:07
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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iseekgolfguru
Smarter than the average bear and why he got good at holing the ball
more often than not.
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May 14 2008 11:27
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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KOC
Dear Lagpressure,
Ball in relation to the left shoulder….without changing the stance…
If i just locate the ball back, my clubface will be too open, the ball
goes right of target;
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May 14 2008 12:26
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232 posts
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Member since 2005
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If i just locate the ball forward, my clubface will be too close, the ball
goes left of target;
From what you said, do you cocern with grip rotation?
lagpressure
KOC,
You are correct, that if you move the ball back and rotate your plane
line to the right your clubface would be open in relation to the original
plane line… and forward visa versa..
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May 14 2008 15:30
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1430 posts
phrase that to be the ball STARTS right of target… and if you move the
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Member since 2008
ball forward, the ball STARTS left of target..
Now when you say “if it is back the ball goes right of target” I would re
●
So pick your hinge, and there are still several ways to draw and fade
shots, so with the ball forward, start the ball left and fade it back to
the target, and if the ball is back draw it back to target..
This is great education for the hands..
The real beauty of all this, is that it can really help with the paralysis
so many feel when they are lining up their shots.. that they have to be
spot on to have a chance of hitting a quality shot..
Knowing you can work the ball around from different ball positions is
very FREEING! Getting a great sense of your swings low point, and
moving your plane line around as I described will give you more
confidence standing over the ball, so you don’t have to fidget or get
that feeling that something is wrong..
I’ll take educated hands over perfect square to square alignment any
time..
The problem I have with the classic “move the ball forward to draw,
and move it back to fade”... that is the geometry of “all things
swinging” is that this requires a more perfect alignment.
I like the idea that if you blindfolded me and spun me around, and
then aimed me within twenty yards left or right of the pin, then took
off the blindfolds and said find the pin, I would be able to work the
ball back towards the hole by acknowledging my new alignment and
letting my educated hands do the rest..
I am not in anyway saying that the protocol of the swingers classic ball
positioning is flawed in anyway..
but like I said in an earlier post, swinging in general makes several big
assumptions…
1. That the human body will create a steady even acceleration for all
the laws of physics and geometry to do what they need to do..
2. That the hinges are properly lubed at all times when playing golf
shots.. meaning free flexible wrists, heavy noodle like arms, and the
“gutty” inner motion of the body is really driving the swing..(loading
and delivering the power package)
I will say that the hitter must also feel that “gutty” body rotation (for
fuller shots).. but accepting that we all have “off days” I like being off
as a hitter much more than being “off” as a swinger.
I played today, and really felt “off’, but still managed 7 birdie putts
inside 20 feet. I only hit one shot that I would say was “really” bad..
That would not have been the case back when I was for the most part a
swinger..
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Cliffmanley
Lag
Great advice, the clock description for my swing works wonderfully
well. It hasn’t taught me anything I don’t already know, it just brings it
to a place that makes sense.
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May 14 2008 16:41
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2820 posts
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Member since 2008
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What I mean is it gives me a routine I can use that gets my overactive
arms/hands back on line, you pointed out to me something I had been
trying to figure out for a looooong time. That my arms take over when I
haven’t been practicing for a while, then slowly I work my swing back
to body followed by arms. Now I have a routine that lets me work my
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body back straight away, it’s SO much better thank you again.
Give me a few weeks and I will do another video, maybe you can
advise me by looking at my swing when it’s back to where it should
be….
Cliff Manley
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lagpressure
Cliff,
Being “gutty”.... really moving everything with the body is not the
easy way! You can never do it too much, the more the better, and
when you are practicing it, you should actually feel a burn in the lower
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May 14 2008 17:58
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
back muscles above the hips… don’t be surprised if your lower back is
sore in the morning. I like to stretch out in the morning to keep
flexible. I find it best to sit on the floor Indian Style, then touch my
right shoulder to my left knee, and then left to right. This stretch
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really helps to aid in getting maximum rotation from the torso.
Glad to hear you are making progress…!
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Swedeas
Hi Lag,
I can see from many different forum users posts here that they may not
be able to reach a level of shaping a shot on demand, etc. I am sure
they would love to in the future and lets hope so. I am guessing that
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May 14 2008 20:32
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41 posts
there are also many users here that are at the level or getting there
with regards to the next phase in this game.
I side with you on this one in a way. 150-200m markers are great but
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Member since 2008
intuition and feel for a shot or having that shot in your mind before you
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play it goes a long way. Being able to have a couple of different
options up your sleeve from say 160m also plays a huge role. In a way,
it sets apart the great from the good from the , “what do I do here”
golfer.
I see it this way at times for golfers. Many have that dreaded push
slice, cut slice, they aim down the left to try and keep it in play or
they may be the opposite with their right to left shots which is the
minority in a way. Once they can get their game going straighter of
which takes a few things like maybe a lesson or 2, at times some
major/minor changes to their swing, then they can work on building
the confidence with their swing to try different shots like shaping the
ball off the tee or to the green. It sure is fun to be able to do it, it
pays off in time and makes one a better player.
It will be good chatting to you over time Lag.
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Cliffmanley
I know what you mean with the stretching, Lag, I do Pilates twice a
day, or at least early in the morning for around an hour, my fitness is
great, I don’t expect any lower back aches, if I get them then I know i
am in trouble… I also take Zinc once a day, it aids healing, without it i
get real back trouble.
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May 14 2008 22:13
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2820 posts
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Member since 2008
I do around 60 pushups a day, 60 situps, I am 49 and 6’ 4” tall…. I used
to bench press 160kg, that would be a bit less these days but not
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much… It’s why I can hit a ball 300m with a poor swing. Watch out
when i am practicing every day…I hit my wedge 150+ and my 8 iron 160
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+, I love smashing a golf ball HARD, I hit a ball but I HIT from the top of
my swing Fun with a capital F…
Cliff Manley
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lagpressure
I think most golfers of any level can learn the basics of draws and
fades. Whether it is done by learning different releases, or simply
rotating the grip, these things can be learned with 1/2 swings or 3/4
swings. This can help stop a golfer’s swing from getting too lopsided…
I think a lot of golfers who start with a slice, find that slice gets bigger
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May 15 2008 04:01
and bigger over time, so to have some kind of knowledge on how to
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1430 posts
move the ball the other direction is very helpful. The great thing about
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Member since 2008
The Golfing Machine is that it gives even a high handicapper the
●
knowledge they need to understand basic alignments, angles, and so
forth.
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KOC
KOC,
You are correct, that if you move the ball back and rotate your
plane line to the right your clubface would be open in relation to
the original plane lineâ¦ and forward visa versa..
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●
May 15 2008 13:59
Now when you say âœif it is back the ball goes right of targetâ•
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232 posts
Member since 2005
I would re phrase that to be the ball STARTS right of targetâ¦ and
if you move the ball forward, the ball STARTS left of target..
●
So pick your hinge, and there are still several ways to draw and
fade shots, so with the ball forward, start the ball left and fade it
back to the target, and if the ball is back draw it back to target..
This is great education for the hands..
The real beauty of all this, is that it can really help with the
paralysis so many feel when they are lining up their shots.. that
they have to be spot on to have a chance of hitting a quality shot..
Knowing you can work the ball around from different ball positions
is very FREEING! Getting a great sense of your swings low point,
and moving your plane line around as I described will give you
more confidence standing over the ball, so you donâ™t have to
fidget or get that feeling that something is wrong..
Iâ™ll take educated hands over perfect square to square
alignment any time..
The problem I have with the classic âœmove the ball forward to
draw,
and move it back to fadeâ•… that is the geometry of âœall
things swingingâ• is that this requires a more perfect alignment.
I like the idea that if you blindfolded me and spun me around, and
then aimed me within twenty yards left or right of the pin, then
took off the blindfolds and said find the pin, I would be able to
work the ball back towards the hole by acknowledging my new
alignment and letting my educated hands do the rest..
I am not in anyway saying that the protocol of the swingers classic
ball positioning is flawed in anyway..
but like I said in an earlier post, swinging in general makes several
big assumptionsâ¦
1. That the human body will create a steady even acceleration for
all the laws of physics and geometry to do what they need to do..
2. That the hinges are properly lubed at all times when playing golf
shots.. meaning free flexible wrists, heavy noodle like arms, and
the âœguttyâ• inner motion of the body is really driving the
swing..(loading and delivering the power package)
I will say that the hitter must also feel that âœguttyâ• body
rotation (for fuller shots).. but accepting that we all have âœoff
daysâ• I like being off as a hitter much more than being âœoffâ
• as a swinger.
I played today, and really felt âœoffâ™, but still managed 7
birdie putts inside 20 feet. I only hit one shot that I would say was â
œreallyâ• bad.. That would not have been the case back when I
was for the most part a swinger..
Thanks alot for the detail reply.
Homer on this: âœHitter should rotate their Grip but not the plane
line at address; swinger should rotate their plane line but not the grip.â
• make me thinking for some days!
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lagpressure
I would say that what Homer says is still correct..
I could move the ball back, and in doing so, rotate my plane line to the
right, set the clubface at the original target line and regrip the club..
then just hit along the new plane line and the ball would draw or hook
back to the original plane line using an angled hinge.
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May 15 2008 18:35
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
You can do a lot with educated hands… I think you could use that same
starting position, and use a dual horizontal hinge swinging the club
along the new plane line and I suppose you could even move the ball
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forward and away, giving the face more time to close if you are
working in a pure swinging mode.
Of all the different combinations of plane lines, grip rotations, angles
and arcs of approach, I would only give warning to one thing
concerning the grip..
In all the years I was on tour, I never saw a good player hit dynamic
golf shots with any real consistency with a double weak grip..
Every other combination, but not left hand weak, and right hand weak.
I have seen a lot of double strong grips win tour events,
weak left- strong right, strong left- weak right.. but not weak – weak..
never, so you might keep that in mind when experimenting around
with all this…
All this stuff is great education for the hands, and the more options
your hands get comfortable with, the better… hands can’t be too
educated…!
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iseekgolfguru
Hands conduct the orchestra:)
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May 15 2008 18:47
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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CraigaW
When i started reading this thread i thought gee i haven’t missed
anything in 2 months yet now i have finished it i can say the opposite is
true.
Practical intelligent info that can be applied to gain from.
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May 15 2008 21:43
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1195 posts
If someone tells you you are a swinger and then proceeds to try and make you a
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Member since 2005
hitter ... run Quickly...
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Beside guru on the range ....
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slinger
Finish swivelâ¦
I donâ™t remember the specific component name of my finish
swivel.
Havenâ™t pick up my book in years.. but I do know what I do and
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May 16 2008 01:56
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250 posts
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Member since 2008
why.
I do everything to save as much of my hip rotation until after
impact, so I have a lot of #4 to get the club over to the 4rth
parallel. Keeping my upper arms packed hard against my body, I
have spent #1, #2, and #3..so 4 really has to fire hard. To do this I
use the ground, by wrenching my feet together, (squeezing them
together hard) firing the left knee into a straight position, and
keeping the left wrist partially cocked still. I turn my torso as flat
as I can so that the left shoulder is moving away from the ball as
far as possible. The hands are firm and stiff. Once I am at the 4rth
parallel.. I then fight the direction of the true impact plane (elbow
plane) and then use the rotator cuff muscles in the shoulders to
raise the upper arms off the body again pulling the club and shaft
off of itâ™s very flat plane and use the #3 pressure point, but this
time it is slightly a bit more underneath and I just pull the hole
thing up as hard as I can to do everything to keep the club and
shaft moving and I like to feel that I am reaching maximum hand
speed just past the 4rth parallel. Now this is a feel thing in my
attempt or futile attempt to maintain the acceleration of my hands
beyond the ball. I actually leaned this technique in a martial arts
class. In other words, if you are going to chop through a pile of
bricks, you must concentrate on moving your hand past and beyond
the point of impact. So whether or not I can hold the flex to the
ball or not, it is truly my intent to do so with every swing of the
club, from driver to putter.
Now at arriving at my finish, I like to get my torso rotated to itâ
™s maximum angle, I would guess about 30 degree beyond
perpendicular. My spine becomes a bit more upright, arms are
slightly bent but really I try to finish with them as straight as
possible.
The clubface should be at right angles to my shoulders, and I try
not to cock my wrists, and with a short iron, my clubshaft might be
about 45 degrees down from skyward. Of course with a driver the
momentum of the club, will bring it down to below parallel,
probably through the ears looking from behind, but I an resisting
all of this.
The reason I do so much resistance is to put as much pressure on
my pressure points right to the endâ¦ PRESSURE IS FEEL!
I do realize that by pulling the clubhead out of orbit, as compared
to a swingers dump and full roll hinge release, I lose clubhead
speed,
but the amount of feel this puts in my hands gives me the ball
control I need to position the golf ball around a course, so I am
playing a game of strategy, rather than a game of âœrip and findâ
•
By becoming a better athlete, and using things like an impact bag,
and a fan club, I got a lot of my power back, but this time I had a
swing that didnâ™t need much oil, and hits consistent golf shots
under pressure when you need it most.. and when you are going up
against the best in the game, you better be able to repeat itâ¦ if
you want to have any chanceâ¦
To be honest, I wouldnâ™t be afraid to play anyone on an old
style course that requires precise shot makingâ¦ at least for one
round..
anything can happen. Of course assuming we are both using
persimmon and blades.. but that is another topic..!
Lagpressure,
can you describe this more for me particularly the no4 is this the
pressure point against your upper body and are you talking about
maintaining it through impact and beyond?
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lagpressure
My sequence of accumulator release would be 1 (2+3 together) 4.
It is of course inevitable that some of 4 is being released on the way
down, but after impact, what could you possibly have left? If your
intent is to keep the clubhead accelerating after impact, then the
feeling of your hands moving faster than the clubhead after impact
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May 16 2008 03:03
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1430 posts
must be your goal.
Again, we can argue whether or not this is actually possible, and I do
●
Member since 2008
believe it to be… I have some video packed away somewhere I hope to
●
upload soon to demonstrate..
Now getting back to impact, when I am really striking the ball well, my
left hip moves significantly after impact, being the core of the engine
that moves the upper torso, and all this force is applied to the #4
pressure point at the left armpit. Once the club is all the way over to
the 4rth parallel…. now what is left? All the accumulators are spent
right? But I would argue that my intent is still to be moving the club
faster than it was moments before.. I am trying to accelerate and am
not ready to give up.. Accelerate forever!
So after the body has slung the club and shaft over to the forth
paralled on a very flat plane, (elbow plane) it is now time to lift that
club back up to shoulder plane with a most violent effort..
all you aussies have a great role model for this with Peter Senior, and
Greg Norman in their primes… a massive uplifting, making every effort
to squeeze every last possible ounce of kinetic energy in an attempt to
keep the club accelerating long past impact..
And this is my argument for this 5th accumulator..
Homer is correct that there could only be 4 accumulators prior to
impact, but we also know that ball speed, is affected by not only pre
impact clubhead speed, but post as well… and this is where I believe
that what happens after impact is just as important as what has
happened before..
There must be a lot of commitment and intent to keep things moving
along after the ball has left the clubface, because the greater the
speed of the clubhead after impact the more we compress the ball and
that compression is what we feel coming up the shaft into our hands
and the 4rth pressure point as well…
This would also be consistent with martial art training, and hitting
through, not stopping at…
Remember, lag pressure and feel are the same thing..
The longer you sustain the line of compression, the more lag pressure
you create, and the more feel you have.
Educated hands love lots of lag pressure, the ball loves it and so do
your scores..
Now go buy some blades so you can start really feeling all this
stuff…!!!! lol
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Aussie_Bomber
AMEN!!
Lag Pressure you are truly a breath of fresh air!
I am now a big believer in accelerate, accelerate, accelerate! Force is
the product of mass times acceleration. As we can’t change the mass
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May 16 2008 09:20
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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of our club (not mid swing anyway) the only thing we have at our
disposal to generate more force is acceleration.
Prior to listening to you and other members of the ISG “brains trust” I
believed clubhead speed at impact was the ultimate goal. However
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now I realise that a club can actually be moving with high velocity but
may actually be losing its acceleration thus leading to less force being
generated through impact.
I now realise that producing acceleration through the impact zone will
result in a harder impact, better compression and greater distance –
my personal goal in golf.
It’s not how fast the club travels from the top of the downswing that
counts, the ball only reacts to what is occuring at impact and ball/
clubface seperation. I liken the golf swing to a river flowing towards a
waterfall (the edge of the waterfall representing impact). The closer
the water flowing in the river gets to the waterfall’s edge the faster it
begins to travel. Once on the edge of the waterfall, the flow doesn’t
cease or slow, it significantly increases! Our golf swings should be no
different!
Thank you and the rest of the ISG “gurus” for opening my eyes to what
is and what is possible.
I do have a couple of technical questions I would like your views on.
1. The club delivery path on the downswing is directed towards the
inner-aft of the ball as HK states in TGM. Optimal motion is ‘down n
out’ (to the right for a RH golfer). Do you have a specific angle you
work on for pure contact? 10, 20, 30* etc in-out? Or using the clock
face reference, a particular time you swing out towards?
2. As someone who over rotates their hips left at impact often finishing
on the rear foot – “spinning out” do you have any drills you work on for
this problem?
3. I was playing around last night with my swing and found that if I
transfer my weight to the left side with my hips initially moving out to
the right (my feeling for correcting my mechanics), I found that if I
maintained my knee flex into impact I could prevent my “spin out”.
Should the front knee be flexed or be straight at the point of impact
for maximum power?
I found this photo of Ben Hogan at impact which shows his left knee
maintaining flex:
In your opinion is this the impact position golfers should be striving for?
●
slinger
My sequence of accumulator release would be 1 (2+3 together) 4.
It is of course inevitable that some of 4 is being released on the
way down, but after impact, what could you possibly have left? If
your intent is to keep the clubhead accelerating after impact, then
the feeling of your hands moving faster than the clubhead after
●
●
May 16 2008 10:58
●
250 posts
●
Member since 2008
●
impact must be your goal.
Again, we can argue whether or not this is actually possible, and I
do believe it to beâ¦ I have some video packed away somewhere I
hope to upload soon to demonstrate..
Now getting back to impact, when I am really striking the ball well,
my left hip moves significantly after impact, being the core of the
engine that moves the upper torso, and all this force is applied to
the #4 pressure point at the left armpit. Once the club is all the
way over to the 4rth parallelâ¦. now what is left? All the
accumulators are spent right? But I would argue that my intent is
still to be moving the club
faster than it was moments before.. I am trying to accelerate and
am not ready to give up.. Accelerate forever!
So after the body has slung the club and shaft over to the forth
paralled on a very flat plane, (elbow plane) it is now time to lift
that club back up to shoulder plane with a most violent effort..
all you aussies have a great role model for this with Peter Senior,
and Greg Norman in their primesâ¦ a massive uplifting, making
every effort to squeeze every last possible ounce of kinetic energy
in an attempt to keep the club accelerating long past impact..
And this is my argument for this 5th accumulator..
Homer is correct that there could only be 4 accumulators prior to
impact, but we also know that ball speed, is affected by not only
pre impact clubhead speed, but post as wellâ¦ and this is where I
believe that what happens after impact is just as important as
what has happened before..
There must be a lot of commitment and intent to keep things
moving along after the ball has left the clubface, because the
greater the speed of the clubhead after impact the more we
compress the ball and that compression is what we feel coming up
the shaft into our hands and the 4rth pressure point as wellâ¦
This would also be consistent with martial art training, and hitting
through, not stopping atâ¦
Remember, lag pressure and feel are the same thing..
The longer you sustain the line of compression, the more lag
pressure you create, and the more feel you have.
Educated hands love lots of lag pressure, the ball loves it and so do
your scores..
Now go buy some blades so you can start really feeling all this
stuffâ¦!!!! lol
thanks for the reply lag… one other thing when you say after impact
the left shoulder should move as far away from the ball as possible
would you be “feeling” that move as a horizontal/parallel motion to
the ground or angular or vertical??
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iseekgolfguru
AB: I can see your mind working overtime this last few weeks. I will be
brief here with some pointers that LP and Co will no doubt paint more
of the picture with:)
1) Homer says “We need to remember to keep thrusting to both arms
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May 16 2008 10:59
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8159 posts
straight. Do whatever we can to keep thrusting, whether it be via the
swingers passive thrust of the straightening right arm or the hitter
active pushing thrust.”
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Member since 2003
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2) Hitter or swinger the way we swing will look a little different
because the pivot is a little different.
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3) We are all built different so we might look a little different too in
how we pivot in terms of the pivot “bits”, feet, knees, hips torso etc.
I know you and I would look mega different put side by side:)
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Aussie_Bomber
Guru:
Thanks heaps, yes I am working overtime. I see what is actually
possible if I develop my mechanics and kinetic chain to optimal levels.
I am hungrier than ever and am willing to work overtime to achieve
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May 16 2008 11:14
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1289 posts
what is truly possible. I am my own toughest critic and want to possess
all of my ball striking ability – If I am not doing it perfectly, I am not
fulfilling what I can potentially achieve. Golf machine and K-Vest have
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Member since 2008
been a true eye opener into what is actually possible. I am not even
●
close to operating at 100% capacity.
●
Obviously my goals are a little different to the traditional golfer, the
power is present but without making an optimal compression and strike
on the ball at impact I realise this power will never be maximised!
Can’t wait to put our swings side by side at some point in time. ;-)
Really appreciate all your continued assistance in my development.
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iseekgolfguru
We can put ideas in peoples minds. Up to you guys to think, incubate
and hatch them in context with your own swings to hit the ball better.
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May 16 2008 12:10
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8159 posts
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Member since 2003
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lagpressure
slinger
lagâ¦ one other thing when you say after impact the left shoulder
should move as far away from the ball as possible would you be â
œfeelingâ• that move as a horizontal/parallel motion to the
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ground or angular or vertical??
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May 17 2008 03:38
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1430 posts
The flatter the rotation of the torso, the faster the left shoulder is
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Member since 2008
moving away from the ball in terms is actual distance. If the shoulders
●
are moving steep through impact, you are not maximizing the potential
of #4 accumulator. This is why it is not uncommon to see a short in
height golfer bomb the ball a long way (Ian Woosnam).... especially if
they have wide shoulders genetically. Broad shoulders would be the
genetics of choice.. tall people for basketball, small people for horse
jockeys!
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lagpressure
1. The club delivery path on the downswing is directed towards the
inner-aft of the ball as HK states in TGM. Optimal motion is â
˜down n outâ™ (to the right for a RH golfer). Do you have a
specific angle you work on for pure contact? 10, 20, 30* etc in-out?
Or using the clock face reference, a particular time you swing out
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May 17 2008 04:36
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
towards?
2. As someone who over rotates their hips left at impact often
finishing on the rear foot â“ âœspinning outâ• do you have any
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drills you work on for this problem?
3. I was playing around last night with my swing and found that if I
transfer my weight to the left side with my hips initially moving out
to the right (my feeling for correcting my mechanics), I found that if
I maintained my knee flex into impact I could prevent my âœspin
outâ•. Should the front knee be flexed or be straight at the point
of impact for maximum power?
1. You have to remember that the inside out motion is a visual illusion..
as we aim our hands at the inside quadrant the clubhead comes around
and hits the back of the ball. If you were to view this from behind it
would not look this way. Because our eyes are above the plane looking
down on it, things appear to move in an arc, but again, looking from
behind we would see more straight lines.. also remember that the
exact angle that you might visuallly see, would vary from person to
person depending on your height, how far you stand from the ball, and
what club you are using, upright, flat..and so forth..
I don’t think there is a magic # that would apply to all people and
situations. A bit of practice, and the computer will make the fine
tuning adjustments for you.
2+3. You would not want the left knee straightening before impact.
For maximum hip slant you would want the left knee straight by the
4rth parallel… I think Hogan gets it right.. that would be a great visual
to input into the computer! You would not want the left knee straight
at impact, but straight immediately after..
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philthevet
Lagpressure
Your contribution is a mine of informations and I want to add my
thanks and congratulations to the others. I noticed that you quoted
Moe Norman and personally met him. I am filled with admiration for
“Gentleman Moe” and try to collect any information about him. People
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May 17 2008 06:43
just trying to mimic his swing are missing a big part of his genius and
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7 posts
specially the mental aspect.
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Member since 2007
I hope not to be out of the subject if I ask you to tell us about your
meetings with Moe Norman.?
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Thanking you one more time to share your great experience.
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Ditty
Guru:
Thanks heaps, yes I am working overtime. I see what is actually
possible if I develop my mechanics and kinetic chain to optimal
levels. I am hungrier than ever and am willing to work overtime to
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May 17 2008 07:25
achieve what is truly possible. I am my own toughest critic and
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4268 posts
want to possess all of my ball striking ability â“ If I am not doing
●
Member since 2008
●
it perfectly, I am not fulfilling what I can potentially achieve. Golf
machine and K-Vest have been a true eye opener into what is
actually possible. I am not even close to operating at 100%
●
capacity.
Obviously my goals are a little different to the traditional golfer,
the power is present but without making an optimal compression
and strike on the ball at impact I realise this power will never be
maximised!
Canâ™t wait to put our swings side by side at some point in
time. ;-)
Really appreciate all your continued assistance in my development.
AB
Wondering if you got my reply to your question a few days back – Also,
are you involved/play in the Australasian Fire Golf?
clean end.
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Aussie_Bomber
Ditty:
Yeah I did, sorry, good to meet you too!
No I am not involved in Australasian Fire Golf – tell me more?
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May 17 2008 07:35
We have the traditional golf clubs as you know here and of course the
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1289 posts
WPFG every 2 years but I don’t compete in either as my concentration
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Member since 2008
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is on Long Drive. Maybe I should be approaching them to start such a
competition up?
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Aussie_Bomber
LP:
Thanks heaps for your advice. Makes perfect sense. I sat down last
night and worked out all the components of my machine as they
currently stand and it has definitely given me a perspective of its
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May 17 2008 07:38
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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overall operation.
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Ditty
Apologies everyone as I realise this is probably not the place for this
conversation.
AB
The Australasian Firegolf is made up of Firies all over Aus and NZ. We
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May 17 2008 09:34
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4268 posts
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Member since 2008
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play our own comps throughout the year with intercity shield and club
championships then we all get together in a different city each year
around early November – this year it’s Canberra, next year I think it’s
NT, then Perth and maybe after that NZ. The Australasian starts on a
Sunday with welcome drinks etc. Then Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and
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Friday we play golf – The wives/partners/girlfriends/husbands come
along – a planned itinerary keeps them occupied. You don’t have to be
a firie to play but there are some restrictions. Some Vic Firies you may
know – 2007 Club Champion; PAUL SANDILANDS
A Grade; STEVE SMITH
B Grade; IAN MUNTZ
C Grade; TONY MARTIN
Our website – http://www.firegolf.com.au/
You can email me firie77 at y7mail dot com
clean end.
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Aussie_Bomber
Ditty:
No worries will check it out and be in touch, thanks for the info.
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May 17 2008 11:48
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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slinger
slinger
lagâ¦ one other thing when you say after impact the left
shoulder should move as far away from the ball as possible
would you be âœfeelingâ• that move as a horizontal/parallel
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May 17 2008 11:51
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250 posts
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Member since 2008
motion to the ground or angular or vertical??
The flatter the rotation of the torso, the faster the left shoulder is
moving away from the ball in terms is actual distance. If the
shoulders are moving steep through impact, you are not
maximizing the potential of #4 accumulator. This is why it is not
uncommon to see a short in height golfer bomb the ball a long way
(Ian Woosnam).... especially if they have wide shoulders
genetically. Broad shoulders would be the genetics of choice.. tall
people for basketball, small people for horse jockeys!
Thanks for reply lag and now i grasp everything you are saying…now
stop writing cause your giving away hogan’s secret moves
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lagpressure
Hogan had many secrets! Not just one.. more like a series of secrets all
working together in perfect harmony.
One of Hogan’s secrets is that he used persimmon and blade irons..
He got incredible feedback from every shot in practice and on the golf
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May 18 2008 03:51
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
course.. If you look at the archaic gear he used back then it can really
give you an added appreciation for just how good he was, and how
pure his swing had to be to consistently flush blade 1 or 2 irons off
tight lies..
●
Players today will never pure it like that, they don’t have to… so the
don’t.
I suspect we will never see swings develop like they did back then..
To really flush it pure like Hogan, Snead, even Moe Norman, those
swings developed from the equipment they were using, the sweet spot
was still there on those clubs, but much smaller so swings had to be
better.
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lagpressure
philthevet
All things Moe!
I first met Moe in 1987 at Thunderbird CC in Toronto at Q school.
This guy was on the range just rapid firing shots, one after another,
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May 18 2008 04:16
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1430 posts
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Member since 2008
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he would hit balls so fast, talking while he was swinging, and calling his
targets on the range as he was doing it, and moving them around.
He wasn’t really known much outside of Canada.. I think when Golf
Digest did the article on him (Cover)... that is when most people
started
hearing and talking about Moe.
I played with Moe in a pro am in Saskatchewan and spent a lot of time
talking to him. He wasn’t all that easy to get to know.. but back then
people still kind of ignored him as some kind of wierdo, crazy guy..
If he wasn’t hitting balls he was usually sitting alone somewhere just
talking to himself or eating a sandwich alone in a corner like a rejected
child. He didn’t shower often so you would have to deal with a lot of
body odor, and that pushed people away.
Like a lot of people in golf (good players) they can describe what they
feel, but most don’t really know what they do. Moe let me film him at
Red Deer CC in Alberta in 1987, I used a Sony CCDV101
with a 10,000 shutter speed camera, I got every angle imaginable
and then some, different clubs, even sand shots.. It is probably some
of the best footage of Moe ever recorded, there was stuff from before
with film cameras, and later in the 90’s when everyone was interested
in Moe, but he still hit it pretty good in 1987, much better than he did
later in the 90’s..
So I spent a lot of time looking at those tapes and learned a great deal.
The biggest impression Moe gave me was that he made golf look easy.
Rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, and the ability to rapid fire shots in practice
is something I took to heart and worked into my practice routine.
He treated golf as if it was a reaction sport, like tennis, he would just
give his brain no time to think, everything was on automatic. Probably
the fastest player ever.
The stories go on and on, but I remember when we played he would
putt so fast.. that if you were stepping over his line the ball might just
roll between your legs as you were doing so. He hated slow play. No
concern for yardages, everything was instinct.. automatic and just
incredible rhythm..
I have never seen anyone else swing like him effectively..
and he did hit millions of balls to get there.
It’s a swinging move, with a full roll duel horizontal hinge an a ton of
5th accumulator. He just pulls forever!
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slinger
Hogan had many secrets! Not just one.. more like a series of
secrets all working together in perfect harmony.
One of Hoganâ™s secrets is that he used persimmon and blade
irons..
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May 18 2008 05:46
He got incredible feedback from every shot in practice and on the
●
250 posts
golf course.. If you look at the archaic gear he used back then it
●
Member since 2008
can really give you an added appreciation for just how good he
was, and how pure his swing had to be to consistently flush blade 1
●
or 2 irons off tight lies..
Players today will never pure it like that, they donâ™t have toâ
¦ so the donâ™t.
I suspect we will never see swings develop like they did back then..
To really flush it pure like Hogan, Snead, even Moe Norman, those
swings developed from the equipment they were using, the sweet
spot was still there on those clubs, but much smaller so swings had
to be better.
Lag do you think its possible to have a swinging action (pulling)down to
the impact zone and then make a hard pivot ( like the one you
describe)and use a hitting thrust with the right forearm/shoulder or
does this go against the laws of Golf
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jeffmann
Lag Pressure
Your arguments make no sense from a HK-TGM perspective.
You state-: “My sequence of accumulator release would be 1 (2+3
together) 4.It is of course inevitable that some of 4 is being released
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May 18 2008 10:48
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759 posts
If your intent is to keep the clubhead accelerating after impact, then
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Member since 2007
the feeling of your hands moving faster than the clubhead after impact
●
on the way down, but after impact, what could you possibly have left?
must be your goal.”
I cannot envisage that it is physically possible to move the hands faster
than the clubhead after impact. If the clubhead is still travelling at
>100mph after impact, are you implying that the hands are moving
faster than 100mph?
You also imply that the power accumulator release sequence should be
1,2/3,4. That is totally contrary to HK’s teaching. Also, what would be
the advantage of activating additional release of power accumulator #4
after impact – when the ball has already left the clubhead? You write-:
“Homer is correct that there could only be 4 accumulators prior to
impact, but we also know that ball speed, is affected by not only pre
impact clubhead speed, but post as wellâ¦ and this is where I believe
that what happens after impact is just as important as what has
happened before.” If you believe that ball speed/distance is affected
by post-impact clubhead speed (causally related to the release of
power accumulator #4), then you need to present a coherent
explanatory argument fully explicating your controversial point of view.
Jeff.
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slinger
Lag Pressure
Your arguments make no sense from a HK-TGM perspective.
You state-: âœMy sequence of accumulator release would be 1 (2
●
●
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+3 together) 4.It is of course inevitable that some of 4 is being
May 18 2008 13:46
250 posts
Member since 2008
released on the way down, but after impact, what could you
possibly have left? If your intent is to keep the clubhead
accelerating after impact, then the feeling of your hands moving
faster than the clubhead after impact must be your goal.â•
I cannot envisage that it is physically possible to move the hands
faster than the clubhead after impact. If the clubhead is still
travelling at >100mph after impact, are you implying that the
hands are moving faster than 100mph?
You also imply that the power accumulator release sequence
should be 1,2/3,4. That is totally contrary to HKâ™s teaching.
Also, what would be the advantage of activating additional release
of power accumulator #4 after impact â“ when the ball has
already left the clubhead? You write-: âœHomer is correct that
there could only be 4 accumulators prior to impact, but we also
know that ball speed, is affected by not only pre impact clubhead
speed, but post as wellâ¦ and this is where I believe that what
happens after impact is just as important as what has happened
before.â• If you believe that ball speed/distance is affected by
post-impact clubhead speed (causally related to the release of
power accumulator #4), then you need to present a coherent
explanatory argument fully explicating your controversial point of
view.
Jeff.
Jeffmann why do you consider this controversial? Is it your opinion that
Homer Kelley who after all could not play golf very well got every part
100% correct? He may have got a lot right but some will be wrong….
just the way it is…...as for lag’s theory he is talking about “feels” that
only good athletes will achieve….so you probably better stick to the
basics
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Sonab
Jeff
read the post that Lag made, then read it again, try not to get caught
on something you think he is saying from first reading.
description of a feeling is not necessarily a statement about what is
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May 18 2008 13:59
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1050 posts
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Member since 2008
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actually happening
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TheDart
Jeff,
Please don’t spoil this good flow of interesting golf talk with “facts”
just yet.
This is enjoyable and expanding. I am getting new stuff to think with.
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May 18 2008 14:25
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2266 posts
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Member since 2006
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Do you know how rare that is after 45 years.
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Bio
Jeff,
how about kick back for while, be quiet and listen, lagpressure is one
of the first homer disciples and it’s music to my ears, to hear someone
giving us an inside into feel of mechanics and different prospectives.
Part of learning is listening,
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May 18 2008 15:20
There is no controversy hear, only what your trying to create.
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1237 posts
Please don’t destroy a great thread with facts,
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Member since 2008
This is about a feel, which I’m enjoying every single post lagpressure
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presents.
Lag pressure, thankyou I have learnt so much off you,
And I would like to ask, if you could right a book on your life
experience on tour and your T.G.M experiences, What you have learnt,
so your life work is documented and can be passed on.
And I hope the dart does the same as well. Your information is
valuable ,And I know thousands of golfers would pay anything for your
knowledge
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Aussie_Bomber
Jeff:
You truly show your ignorance in the performance of a good golf swing
at times! Re-read Lag Pressures statement with regards to “this is what
I feel like I am doing”, not “this is what you have to achieve”.
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May 18 2008 16:47
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1289 posts
statements? You are just plain confrontational to someone who will
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Member since 2008
understand the workings of the golf swing in a manner you will never
●
possess. What lag pressure says makes perfect sense to someone who
●
Then read your post. Do you wonder why people get on you for your
can actually perform the golf swing with a high degree of proficiency.
Have you ever stopped and thought that you can not understand
because you have never performed a golf swing proficiently enough?
Learn to put the theory into practice and you might develop some
modicum of understanding. Until then do us all a favour: shut up and
listen! To those of us at an elite level of performance lag pressure is
giving us information that would take years to discover working by
ourselves.
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Sonab
You are just plain confrontational to someone who will understand
the workings of the golf swing in a manner you will never possess.
lol, this could be said about a lot of people
I often have found Jeff’s comments useful, apart from the occasional
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May 18 2008 17:16
straw horse, he has a different perspective, and an understanding of
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1050 posts
the workings of the golf swing that I will never possess :P
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Member since 2008
I ask that people be a little more generous in their interpretation of
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posts, try to play the ideas more and the man less
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Bio
Sonab,
we appologise, but this is a great thread by lagpressure and we are all
learning a great deal from him, He gives insight to feel of mechanics
and his experiences, which gives us another angle to look at golf with,
we aren’t interested in the facts, but the feeling applied, We jumped
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May 18 2008 18:40
on jeff cause we went to stay away from the theory, but focus on the
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1237 posts
practical and feel of mechanics, this thread is about feel not theory,
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Member since 2008
learning how a great player applied homers work and made a living out
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of it.
We all know the theory, we are interested in the feeling applied, and
don’t want to hear about theory, it’s a breath of fresh air to hear
someone talk about feelings and not theory for a change.
So lets keep it this way,
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lagpressure
Well I am not so sure I understand what is so controversial here..
I believe that high science has shown that ball speed is affected by
clubhead speed measured at two moments in time, pre and post
impact. This is not a mystery..just common sense.
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May 18 2008 18:43
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1430 posts
someone comes running to tackle you, would you rather he hit you and
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Member since 2008
you don’t move as he drops to the ground? ... or would you rather he
●
If you were playing Rugby and you are the one standing still, and
hit you and suddenly you go flying right along with him? Can you feel
that? That is what the golf ball feels… the greater the speed after
impact the harder the hit.. common sense..
If we know this to be true and I think we all do… then what are the
power accumulators left after impact to keep the clubhead driving
through the ball? There must be something going on after impact..
If your right arm has straightened on the way down and it is spent,
the wrists have uncocked and rotated, we only have #4 if we have not
spun out too early, or as Ben Doyle used to say to me “hips running
down the fairway”. If we continue to try to accelerate the club after
impact to the 4rth parallel with #4 and now even beyond,
(remember acceleration means speed is increasing exponentially)
we would need to continue our efforts to move the club as quickly as
possible long after the ball is gone.
I can say this, if I were to finish my swing on an elbow plane,
(extremely flat) I can guarantee I would lose lots of distance.
Has anyone ever seen a thunderous ball striker finish with their hands
belt high and around their body and behind them? I would imagine
not… if so, please let me see this really.
Long hitters will pass their hands through a very high position at some
point in their finish…they may retreat to something that looks flat as
their hands drop down from a high finish…..you see this look from the
long hitters and long swingers..
With hitters, they have the best chance to capitalize from the 5th
accumulator because of the position of their hands at the 4th parallel.
In other words, by using radial acceleration and an angled hinge their
hands will be close to the body just inches away, so they have all this
room to now rip the clubshaft up to a shoulder plain.
This takes a lot of force, and it is this force that is now taking over for
the spent #4 after the hips have cleared out and are spent, the torso
has rotated around and their is really not much else the pivot of the
body can do. The upper arms have been tightly packed against the
body and now it is their turn to release, so they separate from the
body with what I think would be the rotator cuff muscles and raise the
shaft from elbow to shoulder plane in a very quick and powerful
motion.
Now in a swinging procedure, there is no 5th accumulator because
after impact the clubhead has been accelerating longitudinally and all
the force is to be dumped into the ball and downward into the ground,
via the arc of approach, so after impact the upper arms release from
the body and the hands move away from the body, they do not stay in
close like Hogan, or other classic hitters.
I think a lot of people really don’t understand the difference between
radial acceleration and longitudinal acceleration.
The best way I can describe it would be if you are using longitudinal
acceleration you are trying to throw the force of the clubhead into the
ground below you and somewhat towards the target but out to the
right and into the earth below you…. as compared with radial
acceleration you would be trying to throw the club at the target or
even better yet, left of the target and somewhat skyward.
So if you were to try to find your lost club, if you are a swinger, you
would start walking toward the pin, take about 10 steps, then make a
90 degree right turn, take another 10 steps, then get out a shovel and
dig a hole in the ground about 30 feet deep to find your club.
If you are a hitter, you take 10 steps toward the pin, then a 90 degree
left turn and then take 10 steps, you would then look up into the trees
and try to spot your club you just tossed up there about 30 feet up in
the tree.
Very different intent, and as guru says, you can’t try to do both!
both can hit great golf shots, and bad ones too! pick your poison!
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slinger
Well I am not so sure I understand what is so controversial here..
I believe that high science has shown that ball speed is affected by
clubhead speed measured at two moments in time, pre and post
impact. This is not a mystery..just common sense.
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May 18 2008 20:08
250 posts
Member since 2008
If you were playing Rugby and you are the one standing still, and
someone comes running to tackle you, would you rather he hit you
and you donâ™t move as he drops to the ground? ... or would you
rather he hit you and suddenly you go flying right along with him?
Can you feel that? That is what the golf ball feelsâ¦ the greater
the speed after impact the harder the hit.. common sense..
If we know this to be true and I think we all doâ¦ then what are
the power accumulators left after impact to keep the clubhead
driving through the ball? There must be something going on after
impact..
If your right arm has straightened on the way down and it is spent,
the wrists have uncocked and rotated, we only have #4 if we have
not spun out too early, or as Ben Doyle used to say to me âœhips
running down the fairwayâ•. If we continue to try to accelerate
the club after impact to the 4rth parallel with #4 and now even
beyond,
we would need to continue our efforts to move the club as quickly
as possible long after the ball is gone.
I can say this, if I were to finish my swing on an elbow plane,
(extremely flat) I can guarantee I would lose lots of distance.
Has anyone ever seen a thunderous ball striker finish with their
hands belt high and around their body and behind them? I would
imagine notâ¦ if so, please let me see this really.
Long hitters will pass their hands through a very high position at
some point in their finishâ¦they may retreat to something that
looks flat as their hands drop down from a high finishâ¦..you see
this look from the long hitters and long swingers..
With hitters, they have the best chance to capitalize from the 5th
accumulator because of the position of their hands at the 4th
parallel. In other words, by using radial acceleration and an angled
hinge their hands will be close to the body just inches away, so
they have all this room to now rip the clubshaft up to a shoulder
plain.
This takes a lot of force, and it is this force that is now taking over
for the spent #4 after the hips have cleared out and are spent, the
torso has rotated around and their is really not much else the pivot
of the body can do. The upper arms have been tightly packed
against the body and now it is their turn to release, so they
separate from the body with what I think would be the rotator cuff
muscles and raise the shaft from elbow to shoulder plane in a very
quick and powerful motion.
Now in a swinging procedure, there is no 5th accumulator because
after impact the clubhead has been accelerating longitudinally and
all the force is to be dumped into the ball and downward into the
ground, via the arc of approach, so after impact the upper arms
release from the body and the hands move away from the body,
they do not stay in close like Hogan, or other classic hitters.
I think a lot of people really donâ™t understand the difference
between radial acceleration and longitudinal acceleration.
The best way I can describe it would be if you are using
longitudinal acceleration you are trying to throw the force of the
clubhead into the ground below you and somewhat towards the
target but out to the right and into the earth below youâ¦. as
compared with radial acceleration you would be trying to throw
the club at the target or even better yet, left of the target and
somewhat skyward.
So if you were to try to find your lost club, if you are a swinger,
you would start walking toward the pin, take about 10 steps, then
make a 90 degree right turn, take another 10 steps, then get out a
shovel and dig a hole in the ground about 30 feet deep to find your
club.
If you are a hitter, you take 10 steps toward the pin, then a 90
degree left turn and then take 10 steps, you would then look up
into the trees and try to spot your club you just tossed up there
about 30 feet up in the tree.
Very different intent, and as guru says, you canâ™t try to do both!
both can hit great golf shots, and bad ones too! pick your poison!
lag your post once again makes me ponder if it is possible to have a
swingers action with the longitudinal acceleration deep into the
downswing ( pull it more down and towards your left foot) and then
add the radial acceleration with the right forearm/hand with the hard/
late pivot at impact
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TheDart
Slinger
Many things are possible especially after you have mastered the basics.
Get the simple stuff stored in you head first then these thing are on.
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May 18 2008 21:46
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2266 posts
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Member since 2006
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slinger
Slinger
Many things are possible especially after you have mastered the
basics.
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Get the simple stuff stored in you head first then these thing are
May 19 2008 00:58
250 posts
on.
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Member since 2008
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Thanks Dart and next time im back in the big smoke it would be great
if i could get some lessons
philthevet06
Lag
Thank you so much to take time for your Moes memories . it is full of
sensitivity and I appreciate
Back to TGM: I have readen and printed your posts . As a hitter I was
feeling that I had a lot to pick up :)
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May 19 2008 03:01
When reading, I was a bit confused with your release sequence 1/(2
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141 posts
+3)/4. I had bad experiences with the traditional 4/1/2/3 four barrels
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Member since 2007
for hitters , and was very happy and safe with the 1/2/3 sequence.
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But I decided to give a chance and tried it today at the practice range.
After some adjustments I want to tell you that I was smacking it really
hard , with new feelings. For me the “secret” was to try to delay #4 to
the maximum, as if I was releasing it after impact . Everything is not
yet well coordinated of course (delayed hip rotation???), but I still have
the safety of my 1/2/3 sequence and feel that I have some “strengh
rÃ©serve” that I never suspected. THANK YOU!! The journey is never
finished..
Question: don’t you think that your #5 is in fact a super #4, delayed to
its maximum, releasing during impact and still accelerating after
impact, and pulling the body like you describe, for exemple in Peter
senior ’s swing?
Thank you
I’m french, but I treat myself…
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lagpressure
I think like delaying #4 as long as possible, or really saving as much of
it as possible. It is of course inevitable that the torso will rotate some
on the downswing, but after impact, 2 and 3 are unloaded, and if you
are turning with flat shoulders to maximize the pivot rotation then you
will have had to spend 1 as well to keep the hands on plane.
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May 19 2008 04:26
This is one of O Grady’s big points, straighten the right arm out quickly
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1430 posts
on the downswing as the torso rotates, as if you were dropping your
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Member since 2008
hands into your right hip pocket, this keeps the hand on plane so you
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don’t come OTT … it is a very strange feeling, but once mastered, very
powerful..
The right arm straightens to about 120 degrees at the 3rd parallel then
stays frozen through the hitting area and all the way over to the 4rth
parallel.. only from then does it try to straighten in sequence with the
5th accumulator.
The key feeling to maximize #5 if you are hitting is to move the shaft
low, flat and around to the lefft after impact, then rip the shaft
upright to a shoulder plane… with the rotator cuff muscles raising the
upper arms quickly off the body.. Norman, Peter Senior, and Tiger all
do this very well.
Accelerate forever!
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lagpressure
I suspect the 120 degree frozen right arm from 3rd to 4rth parallel is
what Hogan was describing as “wishing he had 3 right arms”.. kind of
like smacking the ball with a stiff frozen right arm.
If you look close, you will see that Hogan’s right arm is still bent after
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May 19 2008 04:36
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1430 posts
impact almost to the 4rth parallel, and Peter Senior as well. This
keeping the right arm stiff and bent 120 degrees allows for the firm
support to the angled hinge through the hitting area. If the right arm
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Member since 2008
straightens it wants to close the clubface if you are angle hinging and
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using radial acceleration.
The feeling is that the hands are not rotating at all, just turning in
unison with the torso all the way up the finish..
Want to learn to really pipe it straight even when the body feels stiff
and tight? This is the kind of swing that travels well.. and can win golf
tournaments under pressure..
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philthevet
Thank you Lag
I will work on the 120Â° right arm. I think I was straighten it to early
trying to straighten DOWN and out in the ball.
I feel like Zac Johnson swing is rather close to yours imperatives . I’m
right ?
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May 19 2008 05:24
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7 posts
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Member since 2007
Zac Swingvision
Thank you
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hacking dog
,
Sorry to detract from a very good thread and discussion, however, I
believe that you might want to rethink this statement.
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May 19 2008 05:53
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68 posts
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Member since 2006
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jeffmann
To those who believe that you can release the 4th power accumulator
after impact, and after release of power accumulator #1,2/3 – what
represents a full release of power accumulator #4. According to HK,
the 4th power accumulator is loaded during the backswing, when the
left arm is drawn across the chest thus narrowing the angle between
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May 19 2008 08:51
the left arm and torso. When the 4th power accumulator releases
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759 posts
(unloads) the angle between the left arm and chest wall increases. So,
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Member since 2007
three questions.
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1) What is the angle that represents a full release of the 4th power
accumulator?
2) What is the angle at impact?
3) What is the angle at full release, and when does it occur in the
swing?
Jeff.
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jeffmann
Phil – you wrote-: “For me the âœsecretâ• was to try to delay #4 to
the maximum, as if I was releasing it after impact.”
How do you delay release of power accumulator #4? What causes the
release in your swing and how to your delay its release? At what point
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May 19 2008 08:59
in your swing is it releasing? Are any other power accumulators
releasing before power accumulator #4 in your swing?
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759 posts
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Member since 2007
Jeff.
jeffmann
Lagpressure – you wrote-: “I suspect the 120 degree frozen right arm
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from 3rd to 4rth parallel is what Hogan was describing as âœwishing
he had 3 right armsâ•.. kind of like smacking the ball with a stiff
frozen right arm.”
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Are you asserting that Hogan was a hitter or a swinger?
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May 19 2008 09:24
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759 posts
Note that his right arm is straight after impact, at the end of the
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Member since 2007
followthrough, well before he reaches the parallel position in the finish
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phase of the swing.
Hogan’s right arm straightening post-impact
Jeff.
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Wilkie
According to HK, the 4th power accumulator is loaded during the
backswing, when the left arm is drawn across the chest thus
narrowing the angle between the left arm and torso.
Jeff
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May 19 2008 09:41
6-B-4-0 (Fourth Accumulator) is the angle formed by the left arm and
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135 posts
left shoulder – not the torso.
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Member since 2007
[One needs to be specific :-) ]
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jeffmann
Wilkie
I agree one that needs to be precise. Although HK wrote about the
angle between the left arm and the left shoulder, his photos
accompanying 6-B-4-0 show that the angle point (junction) is at the
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May 19 2008 10:43
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759 posts
left shoulder joint, but the two lines forming the acute angle are i) a
line drawn along the length of the left arm, and ii) a line drawn across
the front of the torso between the two shoulder joints. It could not be
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Member since 2007
otherwise – because the left shoulder joint is a point location and not a
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linear object. An angle can only be formed between two lines.
I would therefore be happy to modify my statement and say the “angle
between the left arm and the torso between the shoulder socket joints
with the angle point location situated at the left shoulder socket”.
Jeff.
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slinger
Lagpressure â“ you wrote-: âœI suspect the 120 degree frozen
right arm from 3rd to 4rth parallel is what Hogan was describing as
âœwishing he had 3 right armsâ•.. kind of like smacking the
ball with a stiff frozen right arm.â•
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May 19 2008 11:51
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250 posts
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Member since 2008
Are you asserting that Hogan was a hitter or a swinger?
Note that his right arm is straight after impact, at the end of the
followthrough, well before he reaches the parallel position in the
finish phase of the swing.
Hoganâ™s right arm straightening post-impact
Jeff.
Jeffmann looks like in that photo that no4 hasn’t run off anywhere
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Aussie_Bomber
Jeff:
Far out you know how to wreck a good and positive thread!
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May 19 2008 12:26
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1289 posts
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Member since 2008
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jeffmann
Slinger
What point are you trying to make about #4 not having run off
anywhere? Why should there be a change in the power accumulator #4
angle post-impact?
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May 19 2008 14:25
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759 posts
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Member since 2007
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Jeff.
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jeffmann
AB
You would have done well as a staunch member of the Catholic Church
when Galileo presented his theory about the earth being round and the
earth circling around the sun. You would have said that Galileo was
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May 19 2008 14:40
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759 posts
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Member since 2007
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wrecking a sound/positive church theory that had demonstrated that
the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth.
“Good and positive” are adjectives that suit the mind of a person who
chooses that “reality” be subservient to his whims, rather than
“reality” being what it truly is – “reality” based on objective scientific
analysis and not based on sentiment. The fundamental principle of
science is that any theory must be subjected to tests of falsification,
and that only non-falsifiable theories should be taken seriously. You
prefer a non-scientific attitude where you only want your pet theories
to be verified rather than being subjected to falsification challenges,
which are needed to test their likely scientific legitimacy.
Jeff.
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Loren
The title of the thread is “Let’s talk golf machine.”
Jeff is not out of line in talking Golf Machine when he sees something
that doesn’t jive with his understanding of TGM, or biomechanics as
that’s his field. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. A visit to
his web site is well worth the trip.
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May 19 2008 15:10
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905 posts
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Member since 2007
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Hogan was a swinger. TGM describes the follow-through as both arms
straight, which is well before parallel, right wrist still bent, club head
pointing at the plane line.
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From the book, paraphrasing:
“The fourth power accumulator is pivot power supplying the initial
acceleration to throw the lever assemblies toward impact by the thrust
of the right shoulder turn. Left arm power could substitute for the
pivot to introduce circular motion.”
And also:
“For maximum power, the position must be taken that allows for all
components except for right shoulder and foot to reach or pass the lineof-sight to the ball [that means right elbow also for maximum trigger
delay of #1 bent right arm], then the accumulators must move very
rapidly toward their in-line conditions. None should actually arrive
(lose all their lag and drag) until well after impact.“
I interpret this to mean that “released” does not also mean “spent”.
The 4th accumulator’s inline condition it seeks is with the shoulders,
and is never reached, it seems to me. This brings into question the
phrase ”..blast the left arm off the chest.” (which is also in The Book).
When would that happen? I never notice it.
And it lends credence to Hogan’s and Ballard’s and Vijay Singh’s, et
al’s towel under the left arm drills. The towel drops, if at all, in the
finish move, above parallel.
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Wilkie
AB
You would have done well as a staunch member of the Catholic
Church when Galileo presented his theory about the earth being
round and the earth circling around the sun. You would have said
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May 19 2008 15:32
that Galileo was wrecking a sound/positive church theory that had
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135 posts
demonstrated that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved
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Member since 2007
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around the earth.
âœGood and positiveâ• are adjectives that suit the mind of a
person who chooses that âœrealityâ• be subservient to his
whims, rather than âœrealityâ• being what it truly is â“ â
œrealityâ• based on objective scientific analysis and not based
on sentiment. The fundamental principle of science is that any
theory must be subjected to tests of falsification, and that only
non-falsifiable theories should be taken seriously. You prefer a nonscientific attitude where you only want your pet theories to be
verified rather than being subjected to falsification challenges,
which are needed to test their likely scientific legitimacy.
Jeff.
Jeff you are, of course, correct re, the scientific method.
And, in addition, we need to encourage lateral thinkers as well as
logical thinkers.
LP has taken Homerâ™s research and built on it. We do ourselves a
disservice not to listen carefully to what he has to say.
I wrote posts on the 22/3 and the 23/3 re. a suggested project for you.
Please think about it. It could make a real contribution to this forum if
you take it on.
Cheers
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slinger
Slinger
What point are you trying to make about #4 not having run off
anywhere? Why should there be a change in the power accumulator
#4 angle post-impact?
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May 19 2008 15:45
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250 posts
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Member since 2008
Jeff.
Jeffmann i am referring to the pressure point 4 and as you can see in
hogan’s case it has not been “blasted” off . Hogan did this for a reason
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and you have to find that answer for yourself i.e in the dirt…..
personally i like Lagpressure’s description of the feelings perhaps cause
i can associate it to my own swing
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slinger
Hogan was a swinger.
Loren a swinger early career i can agree but later on i can’t agree that
he was a 3 barrel swinger…..my opinion is 4 barrel hitter/swinger’s
pivot plus i see angle hinge happening…..so switter imo
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May 19 2008 15:54
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250 posts
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Member since 2008
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Let`s Talk LAG`s GOLF MACHINE!

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