SV Carbon Tank project for Zoran

SV Carbon Tank project for Zoran
Proving the old saying 'Ask and ye shall receive', Zoran saw the thread about my
SV/MV project and the carbon tank I'd made. He also saw my reply to a question
about how much it would cost for me to make a tank - to which I replied something
like "I don't want to turn the hobby into a job and I prefer to make things like this
for friends...'
Zoran's next post started out with "Well, my friend..."
Long story short, I've decided to build a carbon/kevlar tank for Zoran and his race
SV. I thought you all might enjoy watching the start to finish process. I'll be posting
as I move through the project and hopefully this will dispell some of the the black art
and mystery around composites.
For those of you who've not seen the tank I made for my SV, (pic attached) I think
you'll be surprised at what a hobbiest can achieve in the privacy of his or her garage.
Perhaps after watching this project come together, some of you will be motivated to
give it a try! I'm half tempted to host a 'come to Petaluma and learn how to make
composites - maybe an exhaust hanger or something simple...anyone interested? I'd
charge for cost of materials only...it'd be a hoot. Give me a holler if you want to
know more.
So anyway, let's get going. I've not even started but let's look at the process I'm
going to use. There are any number of ways to do this, which is half the fun - there
are almost no rules...but here's what I like to do:
1. I'm going to start with a stock SV tank, fill in the gas cap area and modify the
area around the seam that joins the top and underside stampings to make a more
'composite production-friendly' shape - more on this later in the project.
2. Once I have a shape I like, I'll make what's called a 'splash mold' (a nonproduction quality mold) of the top and the underside.
3. I'll use the splash molds to make fiberglass-only parts that will be bonded
together to make what's essentially a fiberlass replica of the stock tank.
4. Zoran, an experienced crasher of SVs, has proven that the sides of the stock SV
tank stick out too far and are very susceptible to damage - see attached pics of the
fabulous donor tank he's provided me as the starting point... So, I'm going to modify
the fiberglass replica and narrow it as a pre-emtive design modification to combat
the literal impact that might occur when one combines gravity and asphalt.
Note: Carbon fiber won't dent, it'll crack and break and splinter and grind away to
dust if you impact it (with enough force) or drag it across a rough surface. It's not
impact resistant. That's what the Kevlar is for.
4. Once these mods are all done (lots of bondo, popsicle sticks, and hot glue!) I'll
have a model of the final shape I want. This is called the 'plug'. And now it's time to
sand, sand, sand to get the finish as close to perfect as possible.
5. Once the plug is finished, I use it to make the production molds. It will likely be a
three piece mold: a two-part top is needed if there are any combined surface angles
that would cause what's called 'mold lock'. Think of making a mold using a lightbulb you couldn't get it out of the mold unless the mold could be split. So the top will
utilize a 'splitter plate'. I'll need to make one in order to make the splash mold so
you'll see one of those soon enough...
6. Finally, once I have the production mold, I can layup the parts and make the tank.
Or should I say tanks!
7. I may decide to make these available to others, we'll see. Depends on demand,
how labor intensive they turn out to be, etc.
Zoran will likely not be greeted by a large, lightweight Christmas gift but I'll work on
it as time permits.
So, stay tuned and feel free to contact me with questions, comments, etc.
Chris Baker
[email protected]
__________________
...and here's my SV custom tank. Well, the top part anyway - fresh out of the mold.
It's even prettier in real life.
Well, I found some time this morning and got started on the project in ernest by
making the splash mold of the underside.
Because this tank is going on a race bike and we don't need to preserve the stock
mounting system, and because it'll be simpler to make the tank and add the
mounting tabs later, I used a cut-off wheel and removed the stock front and rear
mounting points. It was easier to cut out the entire section of the rear mount. But
first, here's what I started with...
After removing the foam sound deadening and mounting points, I simply taped over
the opening. No problem as the fiberglass will lay up just fine over the tape and I can
always 'fix' any ripples, etc. when I make parts using the splash mold. Here's the
underside ready to be waxed and PVA'd...
Now I have to apply a special wax as an important step in ensuring the fiberglass
doesn't bond to the tank. I use Partall - available at TAP Plastics.
Sorry, HERE's the Partall
You wax the part just like you were waxing your bike/car. Wax on, Wax off. I usually
apply at least two coats of wax. Be sure to completely buff off the wax between
coats.
Once the part is waxed, it's time to apply the PVA which is a 'mold release'. It's a
liquid that you can apply with a cloth or spray on. I just use a clean paper shop towel
(those blue ones you can get at Kragen or OSH, etc.) and rub on a layer.
You need to move quickly so that you don't rub it once it starts to set up as that will
spoil the surface you are trying to create. Essentially, the PVA dries to a very thin
layer (you can't even tell it's there) that prevents the composite from actually
touching the part - making it easier to remove the part from the mold. Hence 'mold
release'.
Note the oh-so-high-tech Honey Bear PVA dispenser...gotta have a little comic relief
every now and then...
Once the underside is set to go, I protect the top of the tank with a big trash bag.
Not pictured is all the fiberglass that's cut and ready to apply.
I use a pretty light weight glass for the first few layers at it drapes better and is
easier to work into the tighter corners. Then I finish it off with layers of heavier glass
to provide a bit of rigidity.
Occasionally, I'll even glass in a piece of metal or other stiffener, if needed. As I said
earlier in this thread, there really are no rules - I use what makes sense to me.
I'm using the West Systems epoxies. I can get away with the 'fast' hardner for these
simple layups.
And here's the end result: The underside splash mold all layed up and curing. I'll
probably leave it in here for a couple days, especially because it's a bit cold in the
garage.
Time invested so far, including all the cutting, cleaning, preping and layup = about
4.5 hours.
Originally posted by Friggin Chi
when i used to work on custom car audio installs we used either speaker
box carpet or cotton fabric<t-shirt like material> for splash mold material,
since it doesn't need the strength of fibreglass, and because its
cheaper..easier to sand..and most importantly it doesn't make you itch
Interesting, thanks for the info and idea - I may try that on a future project.
Hey, that gives me an idea - maybe I should use material as the outer layer (or part
of the outer layer) of the final production part.
Hey, Zoran, how about a carbon tank with knee cutouts made from my old plaid
flannel pajamas?
Ah, sweet progress. Popping a part out of a mold is one of the most rewarding
events in life - particularly when it pops right out and, result-wise, is right on target.
In other words, so far, so good.
Now on to the splitter plate and the top mold. Wish me luck!
And this underside mold would be suitable if I were to make a non race tank, too...
You can't see it in the pics but there are little dimples in the mold right where the
petcock needs to mount - just like I wanted. I purposley 'dented' the tape when
covering up the petcock mounting location so the location would be build into the
mold. These marks will ensure there are no clearance issues with anything when we
go to mount the final part.
Here's a shot of the other angle:
Splitter plate fab
Thought I'd start the splitter plate today. The splitter serves as a temporary fixture
that allows me to create 1/2 the top mold with the flange that's necessary when
making a two-piece mold - the mold has to be able to be bolted together for final lay
up then I have to be able to split the mold in order to get the mold off the final part -
or off this donor tank.
I start by building a construction paper template, the shape of which will be
transfered onto that laminate covered particle board you can get at the local
hardware store.
Use a jigsaw to cut out the shape and there you go! Here's the paper template in
place.
And here's what it will end up like. This is the splitter plate on my SV/MV tank plug. I
just pulled it out for this pic. I'll post pics of the detail creation of the splitter for the
project tank as I get to it - hopefully, this weekend I'll finish the splitter, get it
mounted and layup the first 1/2 of the top mold.
Turns out I found time to do some more work. First, I drew a centerline down the
tank as a reference point. Then I put down a layer of lightweight packing tape that is
offset such that one edge of the tapeline sits right on the centerline of the tank. The
tape will server as protection under the splitter plate.
Since I need to narrow the tank anyway, I'll wait and fix the damage you see on this
doner tank when I do final body work on the plug. I'll also deal with the gas cap area
then, too.
I'm not going to bother posting pics of fabricating the splitter plate. All I did was
transfer the construction paper template onto the fiberboard and try to do a
resonable jigsaw job of cutting the shape.
The splitter plate doesn't need to be an exact fit to the tank - and you're about to
see why:
I run a large bead of bondo down the tape and press the splitter plate into it. The
bondo fills up any minor imperfections in my jigsaw work. Once it sets up, I have a
perfect fit. Quick, simple and effective.
Here the splitter plate right after it was pressed into the bondo.
It's important not to let the bondo cure fully as it would be near impossible to get a
clean edge at the splitter plate - tank joint.
So, I keep a close eye on it and as soon as it's firm enough to be cut cleanly with a
razor blade, I trim down the edge of the splitter plate and peel away the excess
bondo.
Look closely and you can the thickness of the bondo between the tank and the
splitter. Some visible in some places (rear of the tank) and almost none in others.
This is so much easier (for me) than spending time trying to make a perfect template
and cut a perfect splitter. This technique also has another BIG benefit: It secures the
splitter plate to the tank strongly enough that I can do the lay up without any
additional fixturing. If the splitter was a perfect fit, I'd have to find a way to secure it
to the tank. Remember, I'm after a complete seal and sharp 90 degree edge
between the tank and splitter as when I pull the splitter, the fiberglass that is laid up
against it will serve as the flange edge and the split line for the other side of the top
mold.
Anyway, Ta-Da! All set for a wax, PVA and layup.
Just like prepping any part for layup, it's time to wax with the Partall and buff clean
then apply the PVA. Let it dry - this took a while as it was pretty cold and damp up
here today.
A word about that, while we're at it. I would not be making a final part in these
conditions. I expect to have to build a 'hot room' in order to finish this project in the
next few weeks. It'll be maybe 10x10 and heated with something suitable to about
70+ degrees. All the build materials will be in this room. The epoxy flows better and
bondo doesn't expand/contract, the air will be drier...it's just better all around. But
for this rough fab stuff? I've found it's no big deal. That said, once I have the hot
room, I'll do all the work in it - hey, why not?
So anyway, I went ahead and did the layup. I have to say, I'm pleased with how fast
this is going (knock wood!).
Remember, once I make the top part, I have to bond it to the bottom to make the
initial plug. Then I get to narrow the tank, do paint-ready quality bodywork and
START THE PROCESS ALL OVER AGAIN: make a two-piece, splitter plate based top
mold, a new bottom mold and THEN make the actual tank...
But hey, it's all for Zoran so, I mean, it's worth it, right?
At any rate, here's the first 1/2 of the top splash mold in cure state.
Time invested to date: ~8 hours.
Using a flexible plastic putty knife, I carefully break the seal between the splitter
plate and the flange area, trying REALLY hard not to disturb the seal between the
tank and the mold. I want that in place through the curing of the other 1/2 of the
mold.
Once the splitter/flange seal is 'popped', I just give the splitter a good rap with a
hammer in the direction that will drive it straight up off the tank - parallel with the
flange.
Ta-Da again - a nice flange all set to suppport the layup of the other 1/2 of the mold.
What I'll do first is to drill a number of counter sinks - not all the way through - in
the flange. So this first side flange will have the female part of what becomes a quick
and easy 'locking / locator'. When I go to fit the two halves together in the future,
the nubs on the one side will lock into the counter sinks in the other and guarantee
that the two halves are perfectly aligned. Kinda cool - another accurate, quick and
easy technique.
So here's the result so far - ready for wax, PVA (after some tape over that gas cap
area) and lay up. Hope to get to that later today.
I went to Home Depot today and picked up one of the oil filled heater units to see if
that might be a stop-gap solution to the hot room. Turned out it worked pretty well
so, depending on just how cold it is, I may be able to get away without having to
build an entire room inside the garage.
Once things we're warmed up a bit, I did the layup of the other 1/2 of the top mold.
One of the big challenges for me is waiting until everything has cured sufficiently
before I start messing with it. I'm like a little kid who can't wait...I am getting better
so I expect I'll leave this to sit for a couple days before I pop it out.
But once it's out, I'm set to make the plug parts using my splash mold! Here's where
the 'important' work really begins as I narrow the tank and determine the final topbottom interface design.
What I mean by that is I won't copy the stock shape that has the seam running down
the side of the tank. I'm planning to eliminate that vertical seam so the top part will
actually have a horizontal surface that the underside can bond to. It's a bit hard to
describe - the pics will make it easy to see what I'm up to. Look for those in a future
post. For now, here's the other half of the top splash mold in cure state.
Time invested to this point: ~ 10 hours. I'm happy with that.
And just to help illustrate the 'do whatever works' approach I'm taking to the splash
mold part of the project, here's my latest effort at speeding up the cure process a
bit. But don't tell my wife!
Might be able to pop the mold later this evening!
It's so near Christmas, I just COULDN'T wait to unwrap something! The fireplace
autoclave worked wonders so I figured I'd pull the first side off. It's been curing long
enough for a splash mold....
It's so cool to pull parts out of molds. It's the big pay off for all your hard work - or
the agony of defeat shoved right into your face if you've screwed something up...
The composite is sealed against the tank and as you start to pry it off, the air sneaks
in under the glass and you can very clearly see where the mold has released and
where it hasn't. It's like watching the tide come in as the air pocket makes it way
across the surface of the part.
I use plastic putty knives, popsicle sticks and other non-abrasive items and gently
force them under various places in the mold. Then I use a plastic hammer and bonk
(gently) the places that aren't released. Once I can see everything is released, it's
time to exert a bit of lifting force here and there until...POP! The composite comes
free from the part.
And it turned out just fine. FYI, this pic is right off the tank - I haven't even washed
off the PVA. And as far as finish, shiny is really good. Composites will pick up
EXACTLY the surface of the mold. I've had parts come out with wax swirls built into
them - you couldn't feel them but you could see them. I'll get into more detail about
this as I'm prepping the plug.
For now, enjoy the first 1/2 of our top splash mold.
A bit of trimming (I use a pair of metal cutting shears, of all things...) and sanding,
just to smooth the edges and we're almost set to begin making the top of the plug.
I think I'll end up making the underside first, though.
Splash mold is done!
Decided to pull the other side off this evening. I'm going to have a bunch of work to
fix the overall plug so this splash mold is not critical. OK, OK, I admit it - pulling
parts out is fun! Plus, I just want to get on to the important stuff.
So here we are, a complete splash mold for a dented gen 1 SV tank. Wow, that's got
to be worth maybe, what? A nickel .98?
The inside of the underside mold and the outside of the tops:
Same but with the tops flipped to show the inside. On to plug fabrication!
Originally posted by lizard
I love this thread.
Hey tygaboy, what's the ballpark cost for materials for this project?
Glad to hear you're finding this interesting - that was the hope!
Cost of materials isn't bad. I think I'm going to use a 2x2 twill weave carbon as I
think it's prettier than the plain weave. Eiither weave can be had for under about $30
per 50" wide yard. I'll use less than $100 worth of carbon fiber, then there's the
Kevlar - maybe about $50 for that. Hard to estimate the epoxy but less than
$75...I'd bet I'm into a tank for under $250.
Just don't ask abuot the time invested...I'm into the splash mold for about 11 hours
and it's the easy part.
Originally posted by HellFyre
I think someone asked this a while ago, but I didn't see or missed the
answer. When you're done with either a glass or CF tank, does the fuel go
right in it? Or into a bladder?
The epoxy can stand up to the fuel but before I bond the top to the bottom, I like to
paint the inside with a tank sealer. Once the tank is all together, I slosh a bit around
the top/bottom seal, just for extra insurance.
Product wise, I've been using POR-15. 2 years in the carbon tank on my SV and all's
well.
Plug fab begins!
Ah, nothing like the smell of epoxy in the morning...
I was able to start on the plug yesterday and decided to layup the underside using
the splash mold.
Remember, the plug will start off as a replica of the stock tank but then I'll go after
narrowing it and re-designing / re-shaping how the top and bottom join together.
Given that, I don't need to worry about the quality and finish of these initial plug
components - they'll end up bondo'd and hot glued and who knows what else done to
them. At this point, it's all about getting the parts put together so I can start final
plug shaping.
So, Merry Christmas, Zoran! It ain't pretty, but it'll do!
the other side...
Template time
Time to start thinking about how to lay up the composite in the mold. As before,
there's no 'right' way to go about this. And since we're still talking about the plug,
I'm not too concerned about quality. So this is a great time to learn how the
composite wants to fit into this particular shape.
Unfortunately, you can't just take one big piece of carbon fiber and lay it into the
mold and get a perfect fit, no seams, etc. Carbon fiber, Kevlar and fiberglass fabrics
are woven materials and as such, have what's called a 'draping' quality. That is, how
well do they conform to compound contours? Different weave patterns and weights
of fabric have different draping characteristics.
Want a home demo of the challenge we're about to deal with? OK, take piece of cloth
and try to make it lay flat all over your gas tank with no overlap, bunches, etc. Can't
be done. You'll see places where it bunches up or overlaps itself and if you make that
spot fit well, it'll lift off of other places. Since woven materials, at least the ones
we're working with, have no elastic qualities, we have to coax them into conforming
to all the complex shapes we have on this gas tank.
So in order to get the material to lay nicely in the mold, it's necessary to make a set
of templates to figure out the shapes of the pieces we need to use to combat this
situation.
I start off with a section of newspaper. It has poor draping characteristics so I know
if I can get a decent fit in newpaper, the composites (which can flex and shift a bit)
will be fine.
So, I take a section - it's already folded in half - and I tape it into the mold with the
seam running down the centerline of the mold...
Do a bit of cutting and trimming, make the needed relief cuts, add other sections as
needed to cover the entire side of the mold...
Then just unfold the section(s) to see how it lays into the entire mold...
Pull the parts out and I have a set of templates that I can transfer onto the
fiberglass.
Time to prep the mold with a few coats of Partall and a coat of PVA. Four layers of
fiberglass lay up later and we'll have the top part of of our plug! I hope to get to the
layup later today.
I'm sure I'm going to go with a different template design for the final carbon pieces
as the seam locations on these aren't going to be the most attractive. But I'll tell
you, this SV shape is going to be tough because it's essentially one great big curved
surface with no great places to put seams that will look particularly good and ALSO
make it easy to lay up. My SV/MV tank has a lot more flat-ish surfaces that dictated
pretty obvious seam locations. But again, this is just the plug so I'm not going to
agonize over it just yet.
If the tank were going to be painted, seam location would not matter and I could just
make templates that made the lay up as easy as possible.
These are the times when I wish I was more of a 'Function over Form' kind of
person...but I've always been a sucker for a pretty face so I'd like to make it look
good in raw carbon. We'll see.
Anyway - here are the plug templates, ready to be used to cut the fiberglass.
Now that we're approaching the 'important work' - making the plug - I thought I'd
step back and give you a quick tour of 'Magnolia Composites'. It's just a corner of my
garage with a fairly large work table for cutting fabric and a roll-around cart where I
do most of the layup work. Most supplies are stored in the cart while the fabric rolls
live on the table. I'll eventually build some sort of fabric rack/storage but for now,
this is working fine.
And here are the primary tools of the trade. First, the all important 'self healing' mat.
If you've never seen one of these, they're pretty cool - cut them with a razor blade,
etc and they show no sign of it. Which is great because when cutting fiberglass or
carbon fiber, I use a rotary cutter - that's the cutting wheel you see in the pic. Just
press firmly and roll across the fabric and you're good to go. You can cut nice curves
and not worry about pulling the weave out of alignment. And the mat doesn't even
notice.
You can get the mat and rotary cutter at most any fabric store. Personally, I shop at
JoAnn's Fabrics...!
Regular scissors (the red handled ones) are always handy and I often use them for
last minute, in-the-mold- adjustment cuts.
The orange handle pair are shears that are a must-have for cutting the kevlar.
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, cuts kevlar. Forget the wife's nice kitchen scissors - I
showed those to the Kevlar once and I swear I could hear laughter...Get a nice pair
of these shears. It's still slow going but they get the job done.
So let's cut some fiberglass using our pattern. Unroll the 'glass and lay the pattern
on top. I try and get the pattern onto the 'glass at a 45 degree angle as the weave
doesn't fray at the cut edge when cut at that angle. Keeps things a bit tidier when
doing the lay up and it's less messy as the roll doesn't fray when it's being handled.
Using the rotary cutter, just roll around the pattern, make the relief cuts, etc and in
seconds, we have our first piece, ready for lay up.
I've already waxed and PVA'd the mold (and bolted it together after drilling a few
holes in the flange...but more on that when we get to the production mold). Then I
mix up a 'pot' of epoxy (OK, I use small paper cups from the supermarket...), paint a
pretty thick layer into the mold and start laying in the fiberglass pieces. Again, no
real rules - I just try and remember how many layers I've put where as it's easy to
forget. That's why I always like to cut all the pieces I need and account for total
layers prior to doing the lay up. That way, once all my pieces are gone, I know I've
got the thickness I want.
So, here's a pic of today's lay up 'in process'. It's nice to work with 'glass as while
I'm wetting it out, it's easy to see where it's fully saturated because it goes clear -
not so with carbon fiber or kevlar. And any air pockets that form are easily seen and
can be chased out to an edge or be eliminated in other manners such as making
another relief cut, etc.
Now it's just a matter of lay in the next piece, wet it out, lay in another piece, wet it
out and repeat until done.
And here's the top of our plug in cure state. And the real treat is that you get to see
one of the top secrets of the trade as practiced by me, hacker that I am...clothes
pins!
Here's the deal:
Woven fabrics don't like to go around corners, especially sharp-ish ones. When they
are asked to do so, they often do their best to straighten out into their natural
position - flat. Sometimes, this is a good thing - like when straightening out forces
them more firmly into the mold.
But with the part we're making here, the straightening out actually pulls the 'glass
off the mold at the edges of the tank, which is the worst possible thing we can have
happen.
To combat this, we actually have a few options:
1. We could paint in the initial layer of epoxy and let it cure until it's just barely tacky
to the touch. Then fast as humanly possible, lay the first layer into the mold. and
press it into the nearly cured layer. The tack holds the first layer right where we
want it and after things are fully cured, we come back and lay up the rest of the
part. But this is a plug that's going to be reshaped anyway so I don't care about a
few flaws.
Plus, this method means I have to keep close watch on the part and I have a limited
amount of time to get that first layer in. In all, it's too much effort for this plug and
not necessary at this point in the process. I'm after investing as little time as I can in
these non quality-critical parts.
2. We could vacuum bag the part. We'll be bagging the final carbon parts but again,
for my money, overkill for this plug.
3. We do what I did here. I used the Partall on some large mixing sticks that I
normally use to stir the hardner into the epoxy. Then I clip them to the mold to hold
the composite in place during cure. Benefits? I don't have to play the waiting game
in method #1 and I avoid the bagging process (more supplies used = more money)
of method #2. Plus, it always tickles me to see this sort of thing used in this world of
composites. So full of mystery and black art...and now, clothes pins and popsicle
sticks, too!
Originally posted by lizard
hmm, maybe I could fab a larger capacity gas tank for my Monster for sporttouring purposes. An extra gallon would make a big difference.
hmm...
As Yoda might say, "There is no 'maybe', there is no 'hmm...'. Only 'do'..."
Of course you could make a monsterous Monster tank. That's half the purpose of this
thread - to encourage others to give this a try. The hardest part for you would be
modifying your plug to make it the size/shape you want. Which is the same thing I
have to do here - I'm just going the other way in that this tank will be narrowed and
capacity is not an issue.
But with regard to your Monster tank, I say go for it.
Plug coming to life!
The clothes pins worked just fine and the waxed popsicle sticks came right off, as
planned. (I love it when things go the way you hoped...)
I pulled the top part from the mold this afternoon, did a quick, rough trim
and...Presto! One plug top piece!
Here's the initial fitting of the underside. I still have to trim it to fit better then bond
it into the top.
Essentially, we now have a fiberglass replica of the dented tank with which we
started.
Once the top and underside are bonded together, I think I'm going to fill the tank
with expanding foam so that when I start to narrow the tank and reshape the
top/underside junction, I'll have something solid behind the 'glass.
I hope to get the underside bonded and the foam poured in the next day or two.
Once the plug is shaped and prepped, I start the entire process you've seen so far
over again in order to make the production mold. This time, however, 'Neatness
Counts'.
Total time invested to date: ~15 hours.
Originally posted by drizz
For your MV/SV tank, I'm guessing the plug is where you blend the top
from the MV with the SV bottom?
Short answer is yes. And thanks for the well timed question, Drizz. It gives me the
excuse to talk about the top/underside interface that I keep mentioning as having to
modify on this plug.
Below is a pic of the underside of my SV/MV plug next to our stock SV underside.
(Geez, can you believe how well an SV underside can be made to fit the top of an MV
tank...? What are the odds?!?!)
You see that nice big flat area running around the outside of the bottom of the
SV/MV plug? That is the 'interface' I have to develop for this stock tank plug.
When I lay up the underside mold using this plug, I lay it up such that this flat
surface is part of the underside mold. Then, when I lay up the top mold on this plug,
I wrap the lay up around and again use this flat surface as part of the top mold.
When I make the production parts, both parts have this flat section in common.
These flat surfaces get bonded together to join the top and underside. It does make
the tank 'taller' by the dimension of one of those flat surfaces, but that has virtually
zero impact one way or another.
Also, you may notice that I modified the shape of the underside - I eliminated a lot
of the details as they're just more work during lay up. I'll likely do the same on this
project.
BTW, those holes are where, after making the production underside mold, I mounted
a bracket to the plug to allow me to hold it in a vise while doing the layup of each
side of the final production mold. Makes things much easier. You'll get pics of the
fixturing as I reach that stage.
Originally posted by kurbycar32
question. if the fiberglass mold is made by placing fiberglass on top of the
existing tank doesnt that make the fiberglass one slightly larger, by about
the thickness of the fiberglass?
You are correct; the MOLD is thicker by the thickness of the fiberglass. - but the
INSIDE of the mold is the exact dimension of the outside of the tank. When we use
that mold to make a part, we're building 'in' from that exact outside dimension.
When done, the part taken from the mold is the exact dimension of the tank from
which the mold was taken.
Simple, no?
Originally posted by GetaGripGreg
Question: Why make a glass plug to modify in the first place, if you're going
to fill it with foam? Why not just make a foam plug from your original mold,
modify it, then seal it and finish for your production mold?
Great thread!
Thanks for the kind words. I suppose I could make a foam plug, I just haven't ever
gone that way. I'll learn a bunch about working with expanded foam here in the next
few days and may very well come away with an updated method.
Having never worked with foam, I've got no idea what the 'right out of the mold'
foam surface is like. If it's totally smooth and essentially 'done', I'm all for it - that's
what the 'glass is like. I can get a surface that's perfect with no additional work. If
foam can do that too, sign me up!
Thanks for jumping in and making a suggestion. That's what I hope happens in this
thread.
As I've said all along, I don't profess to be expert at this - I just do what I know and
try to learn new techniques along the way.
Originally posted by HellFyre
I want to start playing around with this stuff, too, with a little bit of trial
and error. Where do you pick up the cloth (both fiberglass and CF) and the
rest of the chemicals?
You can get most everything at TAP but I like West Systems epoxies better. It's
available at West Marine (Oakland, Vallejo, Santa Rosa, other locations, too.)
And stay away from the poly and vinyl ester resins - go with epoxy.
But unless I'm facing a time crunch, I've taken to buying most supplies on line.
Delivered right to the door and I can access a wider variety of goodies. I had great
service from:
http://www.fibreglast.com
Speedy delivery, great selection. But be careful, it's like a candy store for composite
freaks...! Be sure to check out their selection of training materials - books, DVDs,
etc. All good stuff.
Originally posted by GetaGripGreg
Watching your steps so far, I think I would have just made a splash of the
tank base, then built a box on top of it to pour the foam into, sized to allow
you to shape the tank without any additional filler.
Certainly another way to go, but by using the top piece from the splash mold, I only
have to shape the part of the tank that I want changed rather than having to shape
an entire tank, worry about symmetry, etc. The tank is going on a race bike and
we're not after an ultra cool new design (extra time) - I'm happy to take advantage
of the shape of the stock tank and the near ready-to-go finish of the top piece.
Plus, having never shaped foam, I no idea what I'd end up with!
At least this way, we'll get something close to an SV shaped tank.
I picked up the foam today and expect to have some 'next step' pictures by the
weekend.
Cover me...I'm goin' in!
Thought I'd try out the foam this morning.
I mixed up a small batch and poured it into the plug top, focusing on the area I want
to narrow.
All I want to do is have something to serve as a base as I start to reduce the width
of the tank.
The foam didn't flow out to the edges as far as I wanted so I did a 2nd pour to get a
bit more surface area.
Having never worked with foam, I was guessing as to the result I'd get but it turned
out pretty much as I hoped!
Here's the top plug ready to be reshaped.
Next, I went after narrowing the tank. This was total guess work on my part.
Essentially, I want to remove the 'shoulders' that end up dented when SVs get
horizontal.
The nice part is that since the tank we pulled the mold from was dented in just this
area on both sides, I could tell what I wanted to remove.
A little head scratching to determine where to cut and a few minutes with a small
air-powered body working saw and I have exactly what I want!
I'm very happy with how this worked out. The foam performed just as I'd hoped and
will serve as a nice backup to the body filler I'll need to get to final shape.
One narrowed SV tank, ready for bodywork!
I was hoping to get a dramatic shot that showed the difference in width. It looks
pretty different to me. The shape is certainly going to be recognizable as an SV but it
should be narrow enough to aviod being thumped if, heaven forbid, Zoran falls.
For the next few days, just call me 'BondoBoy'...I'll also get the underside bonded in
and go after the top/underside joint redesign.
A safe and Happy New Year to you!
#
Here's a shot from the back of the tanks. Pretty significant difference...
I fitted the underside by bonding the lip of it to the lip of the topside. This is all well
and good but creates the very issue I now need to resolve - I now have a 3/8"
vertical wall sticking up around the underside of the tank. This is not the nice flat
surfaceI need...
So I set about creating a mating surface that will be suitable when bonding the final
top and underside.
If you look back a few pics, you'll see the plug from my SV/MV tank. It's got a nice
wide surface that gets used when making the mold for both the top and underside.
So, I've decided to remove the stock tank's lip, flatten and/or create a bit of the
same thing on this plug.
Sounds great, right? But wait a second, isn't that lip the very thing that is holding
the underside and top together?
Hmmmm, what to do?
Expanding foam to the rescue!
I noticed that the foam sticks pretty well to the fiberglass (and just about everything
else it touches...!) so I figured what if I just filled the tank with foam? That should
allow me to remove the lip but still hold the top and underside together. And what do
you know? It worked. Here's the underside with the lip removed. If you look closely,
you can see areas between the edge of the top and underside where the foam is
exposed.
Now it's a 'simple' matter of creating the flat surface I want. It needs to run around
the entire edge of the tank underside.
I talked with Zoran about his application, expected clearance needs, etc. and since
this is going on a race bike with flatslides, we don't need to worry about clearance
for the airbox, etc. so I have a bit of luxury in terms of taking up some of the
undertank space. A bit of Bondo to build up the surface I want and...
I've got a bit more finish work to do but this give you a good idea of what I'm after a nice top/underside interface.
Time invested to date: ~ 20 hours.
I've decided to complete the underside, pull the mold and make the final production
underside and go after the top section after that. Why?
OK, I'll be honest, after all this 'glass work, I'm itching to lay up some carbon fiber!
I'm going to do this tank in a 2x2 twill weave rather than the plain weave of my
SV/MV tank and I've only made some small pieces in the twill - a exhaust hanger
and undertail for my '03 SV track bike - and I can't wait to work with it on a bigger
part.
So, yesterday and this afternoon it was:
Sand, sand, sand, bondo, bondo, sand, sand, sand, sand, sand, sand, bondo, bondo,
sand, sand, sand,sand, sand, sand, bondo, bondo, sand, sand, sand, and finally
paint.
I'm using a scratch filling rattle can primer that works great. I'll hit it with finer and
finer sand paper and finish with a 2000 wet/dry then polish it. After that, it's time to
make the production mold. Until then, here's the result - ready to be wet sanded.
Turned out nice, don't you think?
Sorry for the lack of progress - busy with other life stuff. Plus I've been working on
my SV bodywork - but that's a whole other thread - and the SV motor in the RVF
chassis.
Anyway, I needed more scratch-filling primer and the paint store (Hawley's in Santa
Rosa) was out of grey so I ended up with this oxide red color. Same stuff, different
color. And you know what? It shows up flaws better than the grey. I love these
accidental learnings...
So, in preparation for making the production mold, I laid down a few coats of the
primer, hit it with 1500 grit wet/dry (wet) and then hooked up a polishing pad to my
air-powered grinder and went after it with a medium cut Meguire's polish. Once that
was done, I went back and hand polished it with a Meguire's Mirror glaze.
So here we are, all ready to lay up the production underside mold. Purdy, ain't it?
Underside Production Mold
OK, after a brief delay (work, other projects, one Saturday 'seminar' and generally
crappy weather for composite work), we're back to it.
It was a beautiful day today - the temperature got up there enough that I decided to
take advantage of it and make the production mold for the underside.
The scratch-filling primer has been polished so it's time for a couple coats of release
wax and some PVA.
Mmmmmm, so nice and shiny....
This is all goodness since we want the smoothest, shiniest finish we can get. Just
that much less work to get the mold ready for the production parts. I wrap the other
side in a garbage bag to keep stray epoxy from mucking up the other areas of the
tank.
I'm after the nicest possible finish so I'm going to do the first two layers in a really
light weight 'glass - for better drapability and ease of lay up - and then back that up
with some much heaier weight 'glass to add the needed strength.
Here's a shot of the two weights I'm using. Pretty big difference.
Using the lighter weight 'glass right against the surface of the mold also reduces the
likelihood of air bubbles in the surface of the part - look how much room there is for
air in that (comparitivley) heavier weave...
Since the underside of my SV/MV tank is essentially the same shape as this one, I
was able to use the patterns from my 'old' tank. Note the relief cuts needed to get
the material to lay nicely into the mold without bunching and lifting.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, as we move into building the production molds
(and final parts!) 'Neatness Counts'.
Whereas with the splash molds and plug parts, we didn't really care too much how
the parts turned out because we were going to cut and glue and foam and bondo
them, now we REALLY care about our results - the finish we get on the mold will
translate every flaw right onto the final production parts.
So, I cut out the entire schedule of materials and lay them out so everything is easy
to get to, the different weight 'glass is in the correct order, the pieces are on the
appropriate side and pointing the right direction, etc. Now I can move quickly
through the lay up without having to mentally keep track of how many layers I've
put where, etc.
Here we are, ready for the lay up to begin.
And here we are, one production mold lay up in cure state. It's kinda wild looking like a big piece of meat or something that used to be alive...As I said, I've never
used the red oxide primer and it looks creepy, don't you think?
I used some of the scrap pieces of 'glass to reinforce the mold in a few places. No
sense throwing it away when I can slap it on here and gain a bit more rigidity in the
mold. May not be as pretty, but who cares? It's the underside of a mold!
So, now it's time to be patient - which is always hard for me... You know how much I
love to pop parts off of molds but this is the important stuff. I'll let it sit and cure for
probably two days. Maybe pop it out on Wednesday. As soon as I do, you'll know...
Total time invested to date: ~ 25 hours
What to do to move the cure cycle along?
Last time it was the fireplace, this time, a space heater set to medium/low. Don't
want to light anything on fire...
Again, I'm always trying out different approaches to see what works best for me. It's
also REALLY nice weather up here today so I may lay it outside in the sun. That's
proven pretty effective in the past.
Do you think I'll be able to leave it alone for 2 whole days?
I bet not...but seriously, I won't pull it when there is any serious risk of messing it
up.
3...2...1...PRODUCTION MOLD!
Well, I made it all the way until 7:00 PM on Tuesday before I just had to pull this
part out! (I'm so proud of myself...)
The nice weather and a bit of space heater cured the lay up and it was time to pop
the part out.
This first pic shows how, as I use a plastic putty blade and start to seperate the part
from the plug, it's obvious where the part has released from the mold (the milky
white areas) and where it has not (the parts where the color shows). This is easy
with 'glass since it's transparent. You'll see it's not so obvious with the final carbon
parts.
The blade is easy to get under the flat edge sections but how to break the seal in
those inner areas? Well, how about wacking it with a rubber mallet? Yep, that's what
I do. Not full swings or anything like that but enough to flex the part and cause the
seperation. Remember, 'glass is pretty tough stuff. Just be sure not to damage the
plug.
Notice the one seperation spot that looks like it's about the size of the head of a
rubber mallet? I just keep wacking it
until the entire part is released.
Even though the part is released, it doesn't just fall out. I have to get something well
under a few areas to get the final separation. I use that plastic blade, the big
popsicle sticks and any other flexible kind of 'pry bar' that will not damage the part
or the plug.
Pry, pry, pry, tap, tap, tap until...
POP! One SV tank underside production mold, fresh from it's birth place, all ready for
trimming!
Ta-friggin'-DA!
Here it is, all trimmed up, ready for wax, PVA and some carbon layup and vacuum
bagging.
I'm REALLY pleased with how this turned out. It's near perfect. One of the best parts
I've made, if I do say so. Finish is super.
I expect I'll be doing the production carbon part this weekend. Then you'll see the
vacuum bagging process in all its glory.
For now, let me introduce you to our production underside mold, ready for action.
So far, this project is going just great. I'm excited by the results we've achieved.
Let the bagging begin!
Well, let's get into some new stuff, shall we? As I've been saying all along, I want to
vacuum bag the final parts. Why? Vacuum bagging helps 'consolidate' the laminate
layers and forces excess epoxy out of the part. Achieving the correct ratio of epoxy
to fabric is key to getting the strongest, lightest possible part.
I'm not going to get into a discussion of autoclaves except to say that I don't have
For our purposes, a wet lay up and vacuum bagged part will be just fine.
one!
So, here we go!
First, the 'tools of the trade'. This pics show the basic stuff we'll need. First, that
clear, pinkish material is the bagging material. I use something called 'Stretchalon'
that has the ability to - wait for it - stretch! This makes it a bit easier to get it to do
some of the trickier stuff and allows me to make small mistakes and not pay a big
price in terms of creating a bridge, etc.
The roll of yellow stuff is 'sealant tape'. Essentially a strip of goo that we'll use to
seal the bag.
The thin, lighter weight material is called 'release peel ply' or just 'peel ply'. It is
treated with a magic substance that won't bond with epoxy. Once I do the lay up, I'll
cover the wet laminate with a layer of this and when everything cures, I'll be able to
- here it comes again - 'peel' it off the part!
Finally, the fluffy looking material is called 'breather'. It sits on top of the peel ply
(which is pourous, by the way) and it absorbs the excess epoxy that the vacuum
squeezes out of the laminate as it's curing.
Pretty simple, eh?
Let's build our bag. You can't buy pre-made bags that are big enough for what we're
doing - at least, I haven't found any. I build them to meet my requirement.
First, determine how big a bag is needed. I do a really rough fit being sure to leave
PLENTY of excess. The bag has to totally conform to the shape of the mold, go in and
out of all the contours, etc. And remember, the part will be wrapped in the breather
so it'll be significantly bigger than just the mold.
And be careful - the bagging material can be punctured and chasing leaks during the
bagging process is a big pain. It's not delicate material, just be careful and prepare
well. For example, I sanded the underside of the mold where the raw fiberglass is
exposed to ensure I didn't have some little splinter that would perforate the bag.
One very rough fit to determine the amount of material needed...
Next, I fold the material in half to determine the middle line and I mark it with a
Sharpie. Then open the material and, starting at the middle point, lay a strip of
sealant tape down one edge being careful to keep the material flat. Leave the
protecting paper on the sealant tape so you don't get other stuff stuck to it while
working the one side.
Press the sealant tape hard onto the material to get an airtight seal...
Peel the paper off the sealant tape to expose the other side. It peels right off.
Carfully fold the bag in half and, starting at the middle point, press the 'top' of the
bag onto the sealant tape. Be careful to keep the edge aligned.
Then fold the open edge back at 45 degrees and do the same on the opposite edge.
Note the sealed edge on the other side of what is starting to look like a bag!
Peel the protecting paper off the sealant tape and carefully press the top of the bag
into the sealant down this other edge.
Ta da! One vacuum bag.
I'll put the sealant tape in the open end just before doing the lay up and bagging it.
No sense having it there where it might get messed up, etc., until we need it.
For now, let's fold it carefully and set it aside until we're ready to bag.
New patterns for this tank
Even though I was able to use the patterns from my SV/MV tank to make the mold,
we want the final product to look as nice as possible. The SV/MV tank underside is
'close' to this shape but we really need specific patterns for each part. So I started
with the top. This is a much easier shape to deal with, compared to the top - see the
pattern making we did for the top earlier in this thread for details about that.
Newspaper works just fine. Cover as much of the surface as possible while checking
fit and taking the draping issue into account.
Fit, fit, cut, cut, fit fit, trim, relief cut, fit and...
One set of SV underside tank patterns.
Prep that mold with wax and PVA, cut the carbon to shape and I'm ready to lay up
and bag!
Originally posted by tz250racer
Chris,
this thead gave me the inspiration to try this stuff myself. I've got a
question for you. What brand scratch filling primer are you using? I've got
some duplicolor primer but it doesn't seem to hold up very well to heat
generated by the epoxy.
Thanks,
Brian
The stuff I'm using is a rattle can brand called "Tempo". I think any scratch-filling
primer will work.
I'm getting a spray gun and am going to give FeatherFill a try. It's supposed to be
twice as thick so should be a time saver.
BAGGED!
Found a bit of time this afternoon and thought I'd lay up and vacuum bag the
production underside part.
Let me start by introducing you to my vacuum pump rig. It's just a little Gast model
I got off e-bay for about $100. It pulls around 24 inches of mercury so less than 1
atmosphere but plenty for what we're up to here.
The set up consists of the pump, specific vacuum line (regular plastic line would
collapse under the vacuum), a shut off valve, a vacuum gauge and a through-thebag type connector.
You can see in the pic, I've cut a small X in the top of the bag and fitted the
connector to it.
The idea is that once the part is under full vacuum, I close the valve and shut off the
pump. It is certainly not the case of letting the pump run during the cure cycle - it
wouldn't last as this one is not designed for continuous duty.
won't take you through the lay up process. It's the same as what I've done with the
'glass - use the patterns to cut the carbon, lay it all out so it's easy to work with and
go to town.
I did learn one new thing - this is the first time I've worked with the 2x2 twill on
irregular shapes and it does NOT like to stay together. It pulls apart at the edges and
moves around like mad compared to the plain weave. I hadn't noticed that on the
exhaust hangers and other small parts I've used it for but man, it was hard to keep it
looking nice at the edges.
So if you sharp eyed readers notice, the carbon you see here is the plain weave. Yep,
I realized the twill was going to be a bitch so I only used it on the outside layer - the
one that will be visible when the tank is assembled. Just like the Wizard said - "Pay
no attention to the man behind the curtain..!"
But I can sure see why the finishes the pros get with the prepreg is so nice. I hope to
some day get my hands on some prepreg. Mmmmmm....prepreg...
Sorry, back to reality. I used three layers of carbon and two of the heavier weight
fiberglass. No kevlar as it's not needed here.
And here we are, all layed up and ready to bag.
Once the layup is complete, I fit the peel ply over the laminate as neatly as possible
then wrap it in the breather. Then it gets put in the vacuum bag. I have already
layed in the final strip of sealant tape along the mouth of the bag so once everything
is inside, I seal up the bag and turn on the pump.
You may not have noticed but the pump-to-bag connector can't just go any old
place, it has to have an air path to the breather. So I wad up some extra breather
and lay it under the connector and up onto the breather that's wrapped around the
part. Again, a simple little trick that keeps the connector off the part and eliminates
the possibility that the part picks up the imprint of the connector...don't laugh, I
have a Ducati exhaust heat shield with a nice big connector-looking imprint in the
finish...
When the vacuum starts to pull and the bag starts to clamp the part, the fun really
begins - trying to be sure the bag is fitting everywhere it needs to fit while it's
starting to clamp down and quickly become harder and harder to adjust. Remember,
it's important to ensure there are no bridges in the vacuum bag and that the
breather and peel ply are staying where I want them to be.
If I see something I don't like, I shut down the pump and bleed air in to release the
bag so I can make the needed adjustments. It usually takes me a couple tries to get
things where I want them. Once I do, I let the pump pull until it maxes out. Start to
finish, to get all the air out, it only takes about a minute.
And here's the other side. Look closely - see those slightly darker spots all over the
side and top? The excess epoxy is being squeezed out of out laminate, through the
peel ply and into the breather. The vacuum is doing just what we want. We're going
to get a lighter, stronger part than we would if we just did the wet lay up and no
vacuum. Lighter AND stronger. Cool, huh?
Now to let it cure. With a bit of luck, we'll have the first half of our tank ready to go
tomorrow afternoon! So far, so good. Now it's on to the top and back to the Bondo.
Time invested to date, about 27 hours.
Originally posted by lizard
Hey Chris, how come you're not using kevlar on this project?
Ah, but I am. The entire top of the tank will have a layer of kevlar. I'm skipping it
here, on the underside, as the odds of the underside taking an impact are
(hopefully!) zero.
Production Underside is ALIVE!
I got everything all nice and hot and it cured enough to pull the part. I had a couple
problems with the bag that I figured would bugger the part so I decided to pull it
out, figuring I could always make another.
I suppose this is kind of an excuse or at least an indication of my approach but it
usually takes me two tries to get the result I want from a process. And I haven't
bagged a complex part since I did my SV/MV tank about two years back. So I'm reremembering those "oh, yeah...that was a problem last time..." learnings. Anyway...
Here's the peel ply and the breather being pulled off. And it's not like things just fall
off. Remember, that breather has some epoxy in it and the peel ply, while it won't
bond to the laminate, still grips it such that I have to apply some serious force to pull
it off. Here, I've run a blade down a few sections and am peeling it all off a strip at a
time.
The part is still on the mold but now it's been freed from the peel ply and the
breather.
Here you can see one of the problems I had:
The breather got wrapped under the peel ply on the right and left side flanges. Not
good, but since I have plenty of room, I hope to be able to trim those areas such
that we'll be OK. I don't need that much area to get a strong top-to-underside bond.
Let's see how it looks once it's out of the mold and trimmed. Fingers crossed...
did a little warming with the space heater. The sun was out so I took advantage of
that to do a bit of solar curing, too. Just laying it in the sun yields surprising results.
The part gets very warm and speeds the cure along nicely.
Normally, I'd wait another day before pulling the part but again, since I saw there
were a couple flaws, I figured I'd pull it now and if it wasn't what I wanted, I'd call it
a 'learning part' and start over. But it's cured enough that if the flaws are liveable or
can be eliminated, it'll work just fine as a production part.
OK, here we go...
I've trimmed and sanded the problem areas and guess what?
We're Good To GO! It's going to be just fine.
(Huge sigh of relief...)
Let's start with the 'inside' of the part.
And finally, after all this, here's the money shot:
One carbon fiber SV tank underside production part!
Can I get a 'Hallelujah', people?!?!?
Sexy, wouldn't you say? And it weighs about as much as a bag of potato chips.
OK, you can see there are a couple stray fibers but like I said, that twill weave is a
bitch. Pretty as it is, I think I'm going back to plain weave, at least for the complex
stuff. I'd rather have a higher quality part.
So a bit of function over form seems OK to me. Plus it's not like plain weave is ugly
or anything.
And here, I've painted on a coat of the tank sealer. I like this as an insurance policy.
I keep it away from the flange as that's the part that will bond to the top part of the
tank and I want a carbon-to-carbon bond.
This part can be set aside until final assembly. On to the top...
Originally posted by xtasie99
Did you use any sort of gelcoat?
Also, you are just brushing on the pva, right? The only time I brushed it on,
it turned out complete crap and I've sprayed ever since. But yours turns out
very well.
No gelcoat and I did get some pin holes with the twill weave. But the finish on my
plain weave stuff comes out great. Essentially, the first layer of epoxy is the gel coat.
If I want to ensure no pin holes, I just let the first coat of epoxy get uber tacky then
lay in the first layer of carbon. That usually results in a perfect surface.
As to the PVA, I just use a blue shop paper towel to wipe it on. I've never had any
problems with that approach.
Originally posted by drizz
Any movement on the top part yet? Or is that on hold for a bit?
Back to sanding, shaping, etc, on the top. Also taking some time to make my SV
fairing parts.
And since I've already posted the process for how I make splitter plates and top
molds, I figured no one would find that very interesting. Thought I'd just post the
new stuff as I get to it. I was going to throw in 'progress' pics but go light on that
until something new was happening.
Let me know if you want the full play by play. - I'd be happy to document the whole
thing...
Originally posted by Dan071
How did you "polish? the CF piece, once you pulled out of the mold to the
pic where it ia all shiny?
No polishing, no nothing. The purpose of making the plug as perfect as possible is
that when the mold is made from the plug, it is a perfect as the plug. And all parts
that come off the mold are as smooth and shiny as the mold. That's why I've
invested so much in the mold making.
This part was taken out of the mold and all I did was wash off the PVA. That's the
beauty of a nice mold.
Originally posted by 1FastF4i
Hey Chris, any updates on the tank?
Only that I've made very little 'new & exciting' progress. It turns out our donor tank
was more damaged than I first realized/noticed. As I started preping it for final
shape, it became clear that the right side was way out of shape. I've been bondoing
and reshaping for hours and hours. Not too post-worthy, I'm afraid.
The good news is it's about done and ready for the top mold to be made/pulled.
I'll be posting as soon as I start the mold making process (again!).
The BAD news is that carbon fiber is all but unavailable. Boeing and Airbus both have
big new planes in production that use a much higher percentage of carbon fiber than
previous designs. That, combined with the military demand, has most suppliers only
selling to previous customers and us tiny buyers are last on what's becoming a very
long list. I was fortunate to get a few yards so I'm covered for this project but sort of
hesitant to use it at all!
But for Zoran, hey, I mean he DESERVES a carbon tank, don't you think?
Originally posted by I &lt;3 Twins
Where is everyone getting the CF?
I asked Tap if they could get me some and they said they had no idea when
they would get any more in.
Depending on what you're building, some options exist. Try:
http://www.fibreglast.com/
They have 'uncertified' carbon fiber. For the non structural stuff most of us are
doing, this would be fine.
The other thing I'm going to try is 'black' fiberglass. (Why the quotes, I wonder?
What's special about black fiberglass...?)
Anyway, it's the look of carbon at half the price - and it's available.
Something to think about. I will confess that I got lucky and picked up a bunch of
certified carbon fiber a number of months ago so Zoran will benefit from receiving
nothing but the best.
The plug is almost ready so we can start on the top mold this week. Pics soon...!
Back to it!
Ok, so where was I? Oh, yeah - making a tank...
So, here we go. When we last worked on the project, we were about to make the
production top mold. FINALLY got back to this in anger today. I finished the minor
clean up on the plug so it's time for a splitter plate and some lay up.
But I decided to try a couple different things this time around. As before, a couple
coats of wax, a coat of PVA and were ready to start.
First, I taped off an offset midline (?) to protect the plug. Remember, I want the
splitter to run right down the middle of the tank and since the splitter plate will have
width, I have to offset to one side.
Then, mock up a quick & dirty template out of construction paper...
...transfer the template design onto the laminate...
A little help from Mr. Jigsaw and we have a splitter plate. Here, I'm still rough fitting
it - I'll trim it to a more manageble shape in just a second.
Instead of the bondo trick I used last time, I decided to try a new/different approach.
I hot glued the splitter plate to the taped area (in a few spots only) and I'll use
modeling clay to fill the gaps. I think it'll be less messy and should yield a better
result in that I can work it until it's where I want it. With the bondo, you kind of only
get one shot. Here's the splitter glued on.
You'll notice I wrapped the splitter around to allow for the lip that we need to have
so we'll have something to which we can bond the bottom section of the tank. It'll be
more obvious what I'm talking about once I make the production part and start
fitting the bottom to the top.
I suppose I should explain the piece of wood that's attached to the tank.
I want to hold the plug more securely when making production molds so I attached a
2x4 to the underside with a few wood screws. It lets me position the tank most any
way I want - I just use some C-clamps or a vise and I can get to whatever I need to
without the plug moving around, etc. Here it is kinda just jammed into my work
cart...
...and here it is showing the full splitter plate and how it wraps around to help
support the needed top-to-bottom pieces bonding flange.
Here's a shot that attempts to show the result of using the modeling clay to fill the
splitter plate gaps. I got the clay at a local art supply store and just crammed it into
the gaps then used one of the popsicle/mixing sticks to trim it even with the wall of
the splitter. It was faster and easier than the bondo approach. We'll have to see how
well it works! It looks pretty good to me so I'm confident it'll be fine.
Once I clayed up the gaps, I waxed and PVA'd the splitter, clay and rest of the tank.
One plug with clayed splitter gap all waxed, PVA'd and ready to go.
See how that 2x4 lets me clamp the whole assembly to the cart and hold it in a nice
level position for mold layup?
Pretty good idea, if you ask me. I can access everything with ease.
About 45 minutes later, here's the first half of our production top mold in cure state.
Notice how the underside edge of the tank is also part of the top mold. Now you can
see why I needed to wrap the splitter around and underneath at the front and back.
And see how easy it is to get at everything? Much easier than trying to do this work
with the plug balanced and proped with stuff. Plus I don't have to worry about the
other side of the plug being damaged from sitting on anything.
And here's the top side.
I rolled the whole cart into the drive way to give it a bit of the ol' 'Solar Cure'.
(Hey, that'd be a good name for a rock band...)
Late tomorrow, I should be able to knock the splitter off and lay up the other half of
the top mod.
Next, the real fun begins - layup of the production carbon top of the tank. And all
sorts of exciting stuff awaits after that: adding the vent system and mounts for the
petcock, cutting the hole for the gas cap and bonding that in...
Then bonding top to bottom and making the mounting system. That stuff actually
goes pretty fast so Zoran just may ride with a carbon tank before this season ends!
The solar cure did it's thing so I was able to get an earlier start that I'd expected. Or
maybe the passing of another year has done nothing for my patience...
No worries, the part was nice and set up.
And let me say I'm sorry for the repetition of some of these steps - I'll be skipping
some of the details so if you want the whole story on the mold making steps, take a
look back in this thread at how we made the splash mold. It's all the same steps. I
did use a couple different techniques (clay instead of bondo to seal the splitter) but
the overall process is samey-same.
So anyway, I carefully removed the splitter plate, doing all I could to retain the seal
between the mold and the plug. The results are quite nice. I think I'll defaut to the
clay approach going forward. But the bondo method is a tool we have in the box for
those cases when it's the best way to go.
So, here it is with the splitter removed. And as soon as I removed the splitter, I
made those black dots on the mold flange. What's that about, you ask?
Prior to laying up the other half of the mold, they remind me to drill the mold locking
points that we need to align the mold halves (see earlier posts for more details). It
would suck big time if I forgot to drill these countersinks as we'd likely end up with a
1/2 side offset carbon tank!
On the other hand, that really would be one-of-a-kind...
With the locking points drilled, everything waxed and PVA'd and about an hour of
layup later, (hey, I started this at about 7:00 this morning and was still on my first
cup...) here's the whole production top mold in cure state. Gotta love that 2x4
fixture stand!
It's still foggy up here in Petaluma so no solar help until later today.
A bit of bonking with the rubber mallet and prying with the popsicle sticks and off
pops the mold. Some trimming and here we are: One Gen 1 SV 650 race tank top
mold!
It came out pretty good. One small flaw that I'll fix before making the top.
I still need to drill the flanges for the bolts that hold the halves together so I just
held it together with some pinchy clamps for this pic.
The crap in the seam is where some of the paint came off the plug - I haven't even
washed off the PVA yet. And that black spot is a stray strand of carbon fiber that
blew into during layup.
I'll polish the whole mold anyway so some minor imperfections at this point are of no
real concern.
So...all this effort to date has gotten us to where we can now (FINALLY) make the
thing we actually want!
I can throw out the plug since I'll never use it again.
Anyone want it? You too can make your very own SV race tank mold and go into
business making labor intensive parts that lots of people want but few will pay to
own!
In any case, here's what we've made: a full mold set for the tank we now get to
build.
You can also get a good feel for how the top and bottom will fit together and how the
lip of each part will fit and bond to the other.
Next, we make the patterns. Look back in this thread and you'll see when I made the
patterns for the plug, I didn't pay any attention to the shape of the pieces. No need
to since it was just a plug. But since we want to show off the bee-u-tee-full carbon
fiber, we want to make the tank out of pieces that look as nice as possible.
The SV tank is particularly challenging as it's one big compound curve. Take a look
back at my SV/MV tank - it's got a lot of nice, reasonably flat-ish surfaces. but this
thing is way roundy.
No matter, we just have to deal with it. So I started making the patterns this
evening. With a bit of luck, I'll get the top layed up in the next couple days. A 3 day
weekend could not have come at a better time.
Oh, and I should mention, FibreGlast has carbon in stock! Not much and I bet not for
long so hurry, hurry if you want some.
No worries for Zoran, though. I have a full supply of carbon and kevlar so we're all
set to get this tank finished.
Cover me - I'm goin' in...
OK, let's lay up the top of this thing, shall we?
First I had to make all the patterns, but I won't review all that. Look back at earlier
posts to see the approach I took to make the plug. For the production top piece, I
had to consider how the carbon will look, in case Zoran wants to run it unpainted. So
I ended up, as I suspected, struggling with the fact that the SV tank is WAAAAY
compound curvy. Turns out I need 7 different pieces. And remember, it's going to be
(from the outside going in) 2 layers of carbon, 1 layer of kevlar, a layer of fiberglass
and 1 more layer of carbon.
Do the math and we have 5 layers x 7 pieces = 35 seperate pieces that had to be
cut. Took me better than an hour to cut it all out.
So here's what a carbon SV tank looks like without the epoxy...
Kevlar is tough stuff. And even when it's saturated with epoxy and allowed to cure, it
'fuzzes' when you cut it. That is, you can't get get a nice clean edge. This is
problematic when you consider that we have to cut a hole in the top to accommodate
the gas cap. The last thing we want is kevlar fuzz poking out around our gas cap...So
what to do?
How about eliiminate that issue by not including kevlar where the gas cap is going to
be? OK, sounds good to me! One "hole-in-the-kevlar" coming up.
OK, so I'm a bit out of order with this pic, give me a break...
Carbon is getting REALLY expensive - when you can even get it. So it's important to
plan ahead when laying out the patterns to keep waste to a minimum.
Pictured is the complete set of paterns for this tank. I flip each of the smaller 'side'
pieces to make my rights and lefts while the big middle top piece gets placed smack
center.
Considering I had 21 carbon pieces to cut, and this is all I 'wasted', I think I did OK...
Since we're vacuum bagging, it's important to be sure there are no 'sharp pokies'
that might create a hole in the vacuum bag. Trust me, chasing vacuum leaks is less
fun than you might imagine. And it's tough to find all but the most obvious ones. So
as an insurance policy, I thought I'd try something new. I hot glued an old towel to
the outside of the mold! Then I wrapped the flange and flange bolts in breather
material, secured it with a bit if duct tape and, other than that fact that it looks like a
circus bike gas tank, I think I've prevented any possible punctures that may have
been caused by a stray 'glass fiber on the outside of the tank.
I've already waxed and pva'd the mold so I'm ready to lay up and bag.
Later this afternoon (with a bit of luck) I should have pics of our production SV tank
top piece layed up, in the vacuum bag, under vacuum and curing.
Cover me...I'm going in...
I've goo'd up the mold with epoxy but this time, since we're going to bag it (and
laying up a tank top takes for friggin' ever), I'm using a 'SLOW' hardner in the
epoxy. It gives me about 3 times as long before it kicks and starts to gel/harden.
So, in this pic, I've already layed in the first two layers of carbon and what you see
here is wetted out layer # 3 - the kevlar. Note the hole for the gas cap...
And here we are with all the layers in:
2 carbon
1 kevlar
1 fiberglas
1 carbon
The pieces overlap quite a bit and I move each layer's pieces around a bit to take as
much advantage of the overlap as I can. So while this is a 'five layer' schedule, in
many - maybe even most - places, the tank is actually up to 10 layers.
And for additional insurance, I added another layer of kevlar in the 'shoulders' of the
tank. In the event of a crash, that's the most likely impact spot.
Here, I've layed in the peel ply and the breather layer. Duct tape to the rescue again
to help hold everything in place so I can get it all into the vacuum bag without things
moving out of place.
It 'in the bag', baby!
Under about 20" of pressure until it's cured. We may just have ourselves a tank top
tomorrrow about this time. Until then, enjoy!
Yowza! Started my morning with a bit of the ol' 'part popping'. What a great way to
begin a Sunday...
The towel I glued to the mold worked great for preventing any stray fibers from
creating leaks in the vacuum bag but was problematic when it came to seeing where
the part had yet to release from the mold. Oh, well. Just bonk with the rubber mallet
a bit more and pry with the plastic putty knife as before. Before you know it..POP!
Ladies and gentlemen, may I present Zoran's Carbon SV tank production top piece.
Mmmmm carbon....
In these pics, you get a good clear view of how important/visible the individual
pieces in that outer layer are to the overall look of the tank. Again, if it was to be
painted - no matter. But the nicer it looks, the nicer it looks. Now that I've built a
part with this mold, I have a better idea of how the fabric actually fits. If I were to do
another one, I think I'd modify my patterns a little bit and I think I could get a nicer
look. But I'm happy with this as an initial result.
Here's one of the underside/inside. I have yet to do the final trimming and you can
see where some of the breather ended up sneaking by the peel ply and getting
bonded to the top. Again, no matter as that'll all get trimmed away.
Also, not sure you can really tell but the area just around where the gas cap will go
has a final layer of fiberglass. Why? As I understand it (don't ask me why/how - I
don't know) carbon and aluminum react at some level and over time, can 'cause
problems'. The solution is to insulate the gas cap from the carbon with this layer of
'glass.
And here's a pic of a rough trial fit of the underside to the top, just to give you an
idea of how the lip/edge of each part will serve as the bonding area for final fitment
of the underside.
So, today I hope to get the petcock boss and gas cap installed. Then it's on to the
venting system. After that we seal this up, add the mounts and deliver it to Zoran.
In all, the postings from here on out will be 'new things'. What I mean is that you've
seen me make the same parts two times - once for the plug and again for the
production parts. Thanks for your patience - it's on to exciting new stuff.
Thought I'd start with the petcock mount. Since this is a race tank, we won't be
using the fuel level sender but the process for installing the mounting boss would be
the same as what we're doing here.
You can't really see it but remember that when I made the plug, I made a little
indentation in the part so the mold would leave a mark right where we want the
mounting points for this to end up. Here, I'm just illustrating where it'll go. And yes,
I know i'm holding it backwards....
You can see I've Sharpie'd the cut out on the tank bottom piece...
But how to actually mount the petcock? Well, how about we go back to the original
donor tank and cut out the factory mounting point. OK, great idea! Here's all we
need...
A little Grindy McGrind with our Dremmel and we have a nice set of openings in our
top and bottom.
I make the opening in the bottom piece a bit larger as the actual fitment of that part
to the top may require some 'scoot it this way or that' to get the best fit and we may
need the clearance, Clarence.
And REMEMBER TO WEAR YOUR PROTECTIVE GEAR - breathing and eyes - when
sanding carbon!!!
And use your shop vac to suck away all that nasty dust.
Anyway, here's the end result with the bottom piece trial fit. Oh, I already trimmed
the inside edge of the top part to ensure the bottom piece fits where we want it to
go. We wouldn't be cutting for any detail component fitting before we knew how the
top and bottom would fit together.
And here's what I use to do this sort of bonding. It's a filler that get's added to the
epoxy to thicken it up. It is suitable for filling any gaps that may exist when bonding
parts together. We'll use this same stuff when we bond any parts, including the top
to the bottom.
Add as much filler as needed to get the desired consistancy. Me, I like creamy
peanut butter!
Apply the cream filling to the inside of the tank, just around where we want the part
to bond, fit it and clamp it in place.
I will come back once this is cured and apply a layer or three of carbon fabric to
sandwich the mounting plate into the tank top.
A peanut butter, cream filled sandwich on a plate!
What could be better?
Once this is cured, it's on to the gas cap.
Well, the petcock mount didn't work out the way I'd hoped. The clamping pulled the
lip of the top out of alignment with the bottom. So I had to remove the mount. That
was fun...good thing I noticed it before the epoxy was fully cured. Anyway, I decided
to mount the plate to the bottom piece and just clearance the top piece as needed.
Should work out just fine so no big deal.
So it's on to the gas cap.
A little measuring, some 'dividing by 2', a little scratching with a set up pointy
calipers and some time with the trusty air saw and Mr. Dremmel and we have a nice
round place for the gas cap to mount.
Turns out the lip on the bottom of the gas cap isn't wide enough to provide the
purchase we want...hmmm.
A quick call to my buddy Kevin Ostrom (always a good idea to know someone with a
lathe, mill and the know- how to use them...!) and in a few days he'll have it all
machined up as needed. Couldn't do it without his help. Let's all give Kevin a round
of applause and a double thumbs up!
So, while it's not really mounted, here's what it'll look like when it is.
And here you can see how I clearanced the top so I could just mount the petcock
plate in the bottom piece....
So, while I'm waiting for the gas cap to be machined, I decided to get to work on the
venting system. Some of you may be thinking, "Wait a minute, isn't that an
aftermarket gas cap and isn't it vented already?"
Here's the deal. It is vented but it's vented in such a way that I'd need to carve out
the gas cap mounting area from the stock tank since the vent actually vents to an
internal 'under the cap' vent that, on stock bikes, then runs to the infamous charcol
filter. I didn't want the added weight from all that steel...So what I need to do here
is go back to the stock tank, cut it open and pilfer the venting system. In our
application, we'll just run the vent out the back of the tank. I could have stuck a dirt
bike vent tube on the top of the tank but I'm not a fan of that look. This is stealthy
and looks better, IMHO, even if it does weigh a few ozs more. Here, I'm trial fitting
it, bending the tubing so I can bond part of it to the side of the tank and route it out
the rear of the tank.
I have to make a small extender, but that's simple enough - I just sleeve it with a
section of the gas cap overflow tube from the stock set up. We'll live without that
overflow set up. Zoran will just have to be a little more careful when filling the
tank...
I'll bond the vent 'cap' (that silver cylinder) to the tank just behind the gas cap, then
bond the tube to the side of the tank. I'll bond around the tube where it exits the
rear of the tank. Three attachement points will be plenty strong.
So, this is all we can do until I get the cap back. I want to mount it, then add the
vent system. After that, all we have to do is bond the top and bottom to seal this bad
boy up. Then it's on to the mounting sysyem.
Hope you're enjoying this final set of steps. We're about a week away from finishing
this project!
Got to Sears (the race track, not the department store) this morning and met up
with Zoran to determine the needed mounting brackets. He's running a race
subframe so we needed to agree on how he wanted/needed the rear mount to work
and I had to be sure I installed the vent outlet such that it didn't interfere with
anything. So I dragged a few scraps of sheet aluminum with me and one of them
was already bent at the perfect angle to serve as the mold for the rear mount...
Karma smiles upon the project on a fine Saturday morning.
Even better is the fact the my SV/MV tank front mount mold is a perfect fit! How'd
that happen? Simple - remember, the underside of my SV/MV tank is the same as a
stock SV tank. Nothing like reusability. So what you see here is my existing front
mount mold and the 'quick and dirty' reat mount mold. The strange look to the front
mold is because, in an effort to make a sturdy mold, I used a layer of 'core mat'. It's
essentially a thick, fairly porous material that soaks up a LOT of epoxy. Once it
cures, this part ain't going anywhere. Very stiff.
There is a bit of a step to the front mold so to combat the possibility of the carbon
trying to 'bridge' and not laying down nicely into that step. I mixed a bit of the filler
into the epoxy to create paste that I can use to fair in the step so that the carbon
doesn't have to conform to as tight a corner. But heaven forbid we have a blob of
cream colored goo messing up our nice finish!
No problem, I just add some black tint to the mixture! Then spread a bit into the
corner and we're all set to lay up the part.
As an aside - this 'fill in the tricky bits with filler' is a fairly common technique. Look
at some of the MotoGP parts and you'll see...
And remember, the part we pull from the front mold will need to be shaped to match
the stock SV front tank mount. You'll see that as I finish up the part. So I could have
spent more time making a 'closer to the finished product' mold but I'd still have to
final shape the part...so why bother with a fancier mold? I opted to go this route.
Also, I've hot glued the molds to a wooden stand to make the layup and cure easier
to handle.
Now's a good time to sandwich in the petcock plate...a few layers of carbon and
we're all set. I only did the one side since once I bond the top to the bottom, the
overlap between the two parts will take care of sandwiching the other side. Simple,
no?
Here are the mounts, all layed up. Also pictured is the metal roller that I use to
consolidate the layup. This helps to compact the layers so we use less epoxy remember, parts are strongest/lightest when the ratio of epoxy to fabric is
optimized. In a non-vacuum bagging situation, like this one, the roller technique
helps us get as close as possible.
While the mounts are curing, let's mount the gas cap. Here you can see the area I
had machined around the outer perimiter. It was less than about 1/2 this width well, it had a step in it that we needed to remove so the available bonding area
would be sufficient to bond to the tank. Plus the step kept it from sitting nice and
flush on the tank. Thanks again to Kevin Ostrom for the quick turn around!
(See that's a subtle joke...he had to mount this on a lathe...which spins...Quick 'turn
around'? Get it...?)
OK, apparently epoxy fumes ARE bad for you...
Mix up some epoxy, add filler until the consistency is where we want it, goo up the
area around where the cap is going, set the cap in and push it home!
The epoxy/filler squishes out on top and bottom, ensuring we have a nice seal.
Then, a bit of epoxy/filler on the mounting bolts - remember, these don't bolt to
anything, in our application, they're just cosmetic. We'll, they do plug the holes that
would otherwise be there...
A bit of Acetone on a rag to wipe up the excess around the cap and any that oozed
up around the bolts and we're home and dry!
To ensure we get a nice snug bond, Let's set a couple big-ass sockets on the cap to
be sure it stays well pressed to the tank during the cure.
Here you can see how the finished top of the tank will look. Pretty nice, wouldn't you
say?
Tomorrow, I'll finish the vent system, coat the inside with tank sealer and with a bit
of luck, bond the top and bottom together!! Major step as, for the first time since we
began this project, we'll actually have something that will hold gas which means,
after all this time and effort, we can well and truly call it a 'tank'.
Can I get a 'Oh YEAH!'?
Well, I got back from a nice dinner out with my wife and friends and, wonder of
wonders, ended up back in the shop. Started thinking about an additional method of
securing the cap. Turns out I want those cap bolts after all. I made up two little
carbon strips that have a slight bend to them. By using the gas cap bolts, we end up
with a couple 'locking wings' that bolt to the gas cap and extend out into the tank
and pull the cap down even more securely. Then, I added a couple layers of carbon
that will add even more holding power. In all, this cap assembly shouldn't be going
anywhere.
And since I had all the supplies out and spare epoxy just sitting there, I figured we
might as well finish up the vent system.
We bond the vent cap to the tank top, just behind the gas cap - that's the highest
point in the tank and other than splashing, gas doesn't get up there. I won't go into
the design of the vent other than to say it works in the stock tank and it'll work here,
too.
Then, having previously bent the copper tube so it'll touch the side of the tank and
route out the back, we bond the tube to the side and strengthen it with a few layers
of carbon. Then, just goo up around the tube where it exits the rear of the tank.
You've already realized I drilled a suitable hole there earlier...
One word of caution: CHECK THAT THE VENT SYSTEM DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH
THE FITMENT OF THE BOTTOM OF THE TANK.
One guess why I mention this in uppercase.
Yup, I had the line all bent and the entire system all goo'd up in place to cure and I
thought, "Hmmm, I better check to see that everthing clears..."
Good thing I did - 'cuz it didn't!
No biggie since nothing had even started to set up. But I had to pull it all out, bend
the copper into a totally different shape and redo the fitting of everything.
Like you've always heard: Measure twice, goo once.
But all's well now. And there is only one more pic to come of the inside of the tank when I apply the sealer. Then it's time to bond top to bottom. Should have that all
done tomorrow.
I gotta get a life - in the shop until about 11:30 last night, back out there at 6:30
this morning. Good thing this is almost done!
As mentioned, we want to ensure we have no issues with leaks. Surprising as it
, er, weeped gas through its side. I
sounds, my first SV/MV tank passed gas
couldn't believe it. Leaking through five layers of cured composites? WTF? It had to
be something I did or didn't do. That's when I became friends with tank sealers.
Saved my bacon on that tank, let me tell you.
In any case, I've greatly improved my layup skills and I'm confident this tank doesn't
really need it, but I'm a fan of 'let's be sure, shall we?' so on goes a layer of POR-15
gas tank sealer. Just paint it on with a cheapy disposable brush, same as we use for
the epoxy work.
BTW, why am I confident this wouldn't have leaked? I filled it with water when it first
came out of the mold and it passed the 'doesn't leak' test!
One sealed tank ready to be closed up and put into service.
And I couldn't resist a shot of the finished cap. Mmm, mmm, mmm. Tasty!
Now let's bond top and bottom...
The tank sealer is all but set up so we're OK to start working with the tank without
having to worry about that stuff getting anywhere we don't want it.
First, cover the outside of the tank to prevent any stray epoxy from getting on it.
Some handy packing paper and magic blue tape and that's that. You can also see
how the vent tube exits the rear of the tank. A bit of forethought and we end up with
a design that lets us mount the bottom without having to worry about the vent exit
getting in the way.
To prep the bonding area, scuff it with some 80 grit sand paper then clean it with
Acetone. I preped both bonding surfaces this way.
Mix up the epoxy and season with filler to taste. Apply liberally to both surfaces we'll be cleaning up the excess and we are far better off with too much than not
enough. Nothing worse that having to play 'on and off, and back on again' at this
stage of the game.
And now it's time for the big event! Place the bottom on the tank, figure out the
clamping/pressure system and get it all happening before the epoxy starts to set up.
It's nearly impossible to figure how we'll need to clamp things until we get the filler
into play. Why? That's when you can see where it oozes out 'naturally' and where we
need to apply some pressure to get the bottom lip to conform to the top part's lip.
Even though you see Vise-Grips in use, they are set to barely squeeze. The tank
bottom edge is fairly flexible so it's less dramatic than it might look.
And full paint cans and 2x4's are your friends. Again, not too high tech, but it works
just fine.
And here's what we're after - the epoxy squeezing evenly out from the seam. I've
already wiped off the majority of the excess and I'll leave what you see here.
Once this is cured, it's all but finished!
Whew...I'm getting tired - how about you?
Ladies and gentlemen - never before seen by human eyes - may I present Zoran's
Carbon SV race tank!
OK, OK, we still need to add the mounts, but come on, I'm EXCITED!
Another view - here you can see we've trimmed the vent tube to production length.
It's feeling pretty light, too!
Down to the final couple steps...
Let's make the front mount. Remove the mount blank from the mold and give it a
quick rough trim with the metal shears. Then, I use a piece I cut from a junk SV tank
as a template to draw out the final shape.
Hard to tell here but the mount blank is set up such that it will bond to the underside
of the carbon tank, wrap underneath the front edge and then the two 'ears' will serve
as the mounting points, just like the stock one.
And here's our custom shop vac hose mount for use when shaping with the Dremel.
Haven't I said it enough already? ALWAYS WEAR YOUR RESPIRATOR! The vac takes
care of virtually all the dust but don't risk it, please!
And the remote extension is easier to use than wielding the Dremel motor. Keeps the
carbon dust away from the motor, too.
One carbon front mount, ready for bonding and final mounting hole drilling.
Well, that's it for this weekend. I hope to finish the tank this week.
But we made really great progress the past two days. Almost there...
But as we enter the home stretch, I've started thinking about a much bigger
question:
What will I do once this project is done...?
Wait, I know! Oh, you Ducati fans are going to love this...
Originally posted by cbrf23
Awesome thread! Tons of knowledge and skill you have.
I got one question, what do you use to trim the carbon fiber after its
hardened? I built a custom body for my bike out of fiberglass, and i had a
hell of a time trimming shit. I ended up buying a little saw blade for my
dremel (which I went through 2 already) and I was thinking there has to be
a better way...
If you read the thread, you'll see I mention that I use a pair of metal shears to do a
rough trim and then use the Dremel with a sanding wheel to finish. I also use
sandpaper of various grit, depending on the specific application. I also use a small air
powered body saw for things like cutting out the gas cap opening. Look back at that
pic and you'll see the part I cut out.
Both the air saw and the sanding wheel go through glass and carbon - even the
Kevlar - no problem.
Time to mount the mount!
Scuff up the bonding surface, drill the initial fitting holes. These holes are probably
undersized as we may want to use the original rubber mounts, in which case we'll
enlarge the holes to take the stock doughnut bushings. This way, we have the option
should we go another way.
I trial fit it to determine the centerline, check clearance, etc. This is my Gen 1 SV Mmmm black powder coated frame, GSX-R 1000 front end...
Scuff the bonding area on the tank underside - after marking the location with Mr.
Sharpie. Mix the epoxy, add filler and apply to both parts. Again, better too much
than not enough! We'll simply wipe off the excess that squeezes out...
Fit the mount, press it into place and clamp it into final location. Excess epoxy/filler
flows out ensuring we have a nice layer of goo between these parts.
Poifect!
You have to be a bit careful since the clamping surfaces are not parallel. This causes
the Vice Grip to try and move the mount around as it locks. We're using pretty little
clamping pressure. Enough to hold the part and force the excess epoxy/filler out, but
not so much that we risk crunching the tank or anything like that.
Carefully wipe off the excess and gently wipe the entire tank down with Acetone to
be sure no epoxy fingerprints or stray drops of epoxy found their way to somewhere
they shouldn't be.
I should have taped off the parts of the tank that we wanted to protect but this was
a simple proceedure so I risked it. So long as we give it a good inspection and clean
up before the epoxy sets up, we're fine.
Then just let it cure and...
Shazam! - one front mount - mounted!
I may come back and add a few layers of carbon to sandwich the mount to the
tank...let's see how I feel about that in a bit.
We are officially one rear mount bonding away from this project being done.
Home stretch...keep your form...relax...almost there...
I weighed the tank... drum roll please....
Stock = 12.8 lbs.
Carbon....here it comes....
4.85 lbs!
A 62% reduction in weight. Up high on the bike, too. This will be noticeable.
And as I've said, this tank could be made lighter. I think if I were to do it again, I
could safely get it close to 4 lbs.
I'm pleased with this result. You should be, too.
The final fab is upon us! The rear mount.
In case I didn't mention it earlier, I got home from the 'trial' fitment at Sears and
took a closer look at the rear mount...something's not right...
So I decided to hold off making it until I could fit the tank on Zoran's bike.
Well, yesterday Zoran was kind enough to swing by my place with his bike! I had
asked him to help me with the wiring harness on my SV project so it seemed a winwin all around.
In any case, it turns out my suspisions were correct so I ended up starting the rear
mount over again.
I've had great success using sheet aluminum (available at your local OSH, Home
Depot, etc) as simple molds. For things like this rear mount, which is just a tab with
a bend in it, it works really well.
Just clip out an appropriate size and mock up the needed shape. Then hot glue it to
the trusty mold stand...
At this point, I'm assuming you've all seen enough to know how I lay up the
composites so I won't go into all that.
Here's the part, rough trimmed and ready to be bonded to the tank. Had to
clearance it a bit for the vent tube...
I'm leaving plenty of size in the part to maximize the bonding area as well as provide
flexibility for final fitting and location of the mounting holes. Better safe than sorry.
"Lather, rise, repeat" applys to our tank project, too.
I'm sure you're all starting to see there are really only a few basic skill to all this.
These next few steps are the same ol' "rough up the bonding surfaces, wipe with
Acetone, mix the epoxy, add filler, goo up the bonding surfaces..."
Nothing like a pot of epoxy/filler first thing on a Sunday morning!
Apply to both surfaces...
...then set the rear mount in place. Check to be sure the filler is oozing out all
around. Well, no problem on that count, huh?
(I just noticed this pic shows my very cool SV project bike watching from the other
side of the shop. It's calling "Work on me, work on me!")
And yes, that is a large pig above the clock...don't ask.
Remove the excess epoxy/filler and clean up any smudges with Acetone.
And, credit where credit is due - where would this project be with out our trusty, bigass sockets? Here they are being assisted by, of all things, a couple puny-ass
sockets. Never had need to use the little guys before but here, they're just what the
doctor ordered.
And speaking of credit - let's hear it for 1-gallon paint cans!
Well, OK - can't forget the paint that's in them...
Seriously, these things are handy, handy. Fixturing this tank so we can do all the
things we need to do is greatly simplified with stuff like this (and a bit of creativity...)
Folks, this is the last of it. Final trimming of that rear tab and this tank is ready for
action!
We made it!
Well, can you believe it? What started about a year ago (!) as an innocent comment
about how I didn't want to make a tank to sell because I'd rather build stuff for
friends, keep the hobby a hobby, etc. is complete! Whew!
And interestingly, I've made a few new friends as a result of this 'little' project. I met
a bunch of you all at the Carbon Seminar and I've had the chance to get to know
Zoran a bit. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure, he's quite the character.
Those of you that do know him, are abundantly aware of what I mean.
In short, my life is and will be richer having made his (and your) acquaintance.
And isn't that what life is all about?
So, some stats on our project:
First post: 12/5/05
Start date: 12/11/05
Finish Date: 10/15/06
# of pics: 157
Total hours invested: ~90 (you do the math on why I don't do this for money...)
Total cost of materials: ~ $350 (plus the crashed SV tank)
Weight savings: 7.95 lbs
# of views on this post as of 'now': 39,768
BARF Rating: 5 stars!
In the end, we went from this...
to this...
And here's our carbon tank, all set up in it's new home!
Well, folks, that's it.
I hope you all enjoyed this thread and that, just maybe, you'll be inspired to give this
a try.
Thanks for letting me share all this with you.
Best to you and yours - and ride safely.
Chris
Other side...
The End!
Yep, the end!