Tape Op Sept/Oct 2008

T Bone Burnett
d Love
~
1461TAPE OP#67/MR. BURNETT/I
Larry Crane
Portrait ~ Brian r Silak
I was told this interview wou.l!d never happen. Apparently T Bone is a busy man,
pf"Oducing records, overseei ug film soundtracks, recOl'ding solo albums and touring the world.
Rumetl has been involved with music for over 40 years, and producing I'ecords seems to be
something he naturally gravitated towards, Artists like Los Lobos, Elvis Costello, Gillian Welch,
Sam Phillips, Counting Crows, Bruce Cockburn, the 'Wallflowers, Marshall Crenshaw
Cassandra Wilson, Ralph Stanley, Roy Orbison, Tony Bennett, k.d, lang and even Spinal T.'\p have
created some of their best work under his guidance, Movies like 0 Brothel', Wllere Art 17lOU? and Wille the Line
have benefited from his music choices and production, As jf this isn't enough, he's determined to
I reaLized, "Let's just take the bass out." And the bass
you hear on that record is the bass that was coming
through her vocal mic, which was four or six feet away
from her. But it was also compressing the whole room.
He was such a powerfuL musician that he was
compressing this room with a fifteen to eighteen-foot
ceiLing. He filLed the whoLe room. After the take, I
remember him putting his bass down and saying, '1
gotta go outside for awhiLe." And he just put his bass
down and waLked outside. He waLked around for about
fifteen minutes - he'd put out so much.
make the record business an artist-fri.endly one with the creation of X 0 ~ E, pronounced "code",
a music delivery service that releases albums as 24/96 k flles on DVD with several other playback formats
In cases like that, you'l'e kind of
u1duded. T Bone's new solo album, Tooth ofCnnre, was recently released and makes for an intense listen,
dealing with an element of luck and
Yes, a busy man. Luckily this interview did happen when I caught T Bone in New York City, He was
kind enough to take time out fl'Om playing guitar and directing the band on the RaisillgSand t.our ­
!he stdlar album he produced for Alison Kranss and Robert Plant in 2007. This is one of my most
favorite interviews J'ye heen involved in, and I'm happy to share it with everyone.
sUl'pl'ise.
It's aLL Luck.
Al'e there situations whel'e you find
younelf tl'ying to fin~ something
like that?
You wel'e talking about how yo,U and Yeah, I think we've gotten pretty good at it at this
point. Mikey and I have been working together for Never.
YOUI' engineel', Mike Pienante,
ten years soLid. ALL those guys have Learned to hear Like tl'ying to put up extl'a mics,
check out equipment. 01' how he
with my ears, essentiaLLy. Everyone who's in the room
spending a little too long...?
does. How does that impact YOUI'
affects
the
Listening
experience
a
littLe
bit.
The
music
Never.
Maybe I did that forty years ago. [Laughter] But
pl'ocess of making I'ecol'ds?
can onLy sound as good as the worst Listener in the
Well, I don't reaLly Like recordings, you know. And I don't
audience. They break down the ewve. [laughter] We
particularLy Like processing. What I really Like is hearing
use very few microphones, we don't cLose-mic
a musician play in a room, or a group of musicians play
anything. We use no transistors. Surfaces are
in a room. That's what I feLL in love with first, When I
everything in recording; we only hear by reflected
was a kid, about 14 or 15, I started going to the
sound.
The surfaces of the room are crucial. I made a
SkyLiner BaLLroom i>J Fort Worth, Texas. It was owned by
record
I
really Loved a few years ago with Freedy
Jack Ruby. I saw The Band when I was a kid and they
Johnston
in Studio A at Village Recorders. He was
talk about it [the venue] in the movie, The Last Waltz.
standing
right
in the middle of the room with a
It was the most beautiful sounding room. The music I
[Neumann]
U47
microphone and Jim Keltner was just
heard in that room had a profound effect on me, And
to the left of him playing drums. His band was circled
years Later, DaryL Leonard, a friend of mine whom I've
around the room. We started mixing it and I couLdn't
worked with since the mid-1960's, brought over a
get anything right. Usually when I mix, the first thing
recording we had done in '65 or '67. We put it on and
I do is put up the vocal, so I just stripped it back
it sounds exactly like what I am doing today. It started
down and put up the vocal. I realized, "Oh, there's
me thinking. I remembered that Ike and Tina Turner
the mix right there! That's it." SQ, the whoLe album is
had played a show at the SkyLiner Ballroom in the mid­
mixed off the vocaL mic. That's happened to me on a
1960s. They had recorded it and I wondered if I could
number of occasions. One of my favorite recordings is
buy that record. I went onLine and I got the record and
the song, "Pass You By" by Gillian Welch on one of
I put it on. It too sounded Like everything I've done my
her records [RevivaG. Roy Husky Jr. was pLaying bass.
whole Life and I realized that everything I've been
He was standing probabLy about five-feet behind her
trying to do from the beginning was to reer-eate this
with a screen behind him, in this big wooden room.
excitement of sound that I heard from the Skyliner
Ahuge
room. She was playing electric guitar, but her
Ballroom from when I was a kid. I love recording but I
guitar
amp
was in an isolation booth. We did the take
don't usually Love recordings. I hardly ever say, "Wow!
_
first
of
all.
I think it's one of the most ferocious
That's a great recording." I say, 'That's an incredible
bass
recordings
of aLL time. Rick Will engineered it and
song or incredibLe piece of music." But the times I do
I don't think anyone's ever recorded a rockabilLy bass
feel that it's been a great recording is where I find a
as powerfuL as that, ever. Roy died a few years ago.
real sense of place. I find the most important part of
One of the reasons there's no bass on Tooth of Crime
the listening experience is the sense of place. Mike
was because I was grieving for Roy. I couLdn't stand
Piersante, Emile KeLman, Jason Wormer; Gavin Lurssen
to have another bass player.
and Lisa Surber are my team. We stay very much on top
of all the technologicaL developments in recording so I was wandel'ing about that. I could feel
that.
we Rever hear the recording. [laughter] I cannot stand
Yeah,
I wanted that grief for Roy in that music; that hoLe.
processing. I Love the sound of an instrument bouncing
That
ended up the same way [Gillian's album). We
off a waLL and into a room when you hear that pure,
came in to listen. Roy was playing so powerfulLy; he
deep sound,
was playing sLap bass, so he was pLaying bass and
YOUI' l'ecoJldings always seem to bl'ing in
drums.
GilLian was playing on a little Les Paul Jr. and
the feel of a space. Obviously it's ClI
on
aU
47
[singing]. The only other mic We had up was
conscious thing tl'ying to replicate
his
bass
mic.
Her guitar mic was in isolation. But when
some of that, I assume.
we put up the vocaL, we couLdn't put up the bass and
IMR.
seriousLy, I got over that. There were a lot of things I
got over very earLy in my Life as a record producer, and
one of them was telling anybody what to play. When
I started out, I wouLd give the musicians every note
to play. And very quicHy I started working with such
good musicians that I began to say, "Why am I not
just letting them play? Because that's what they do,"
And I got better and better resuLts that way, I
realized, "I already know my own ideas. If I want to
do that, I can just do that myseLf." If you're going to
bring in other people, just let them go,
Do you find younelf picking musicians
for the way they.al'e going to play?
That's right.
And how they're going to I'espond to
what they heal'?
That's right. And I never t~LL anybody what to play. Tf a
guitarist comes in, I mean, usually the first thing a
musician pLays is the best thing he's going to come
up with. So, if a guitarist comes in and the thing he's
doing isn't working - I just say, 'Thank you.
Fantastic. Thank you very much. We'll see you later."
We just keep their part and hoLd it. Sometimes parts
that didn't work in the moment, you were recording
them because of everything eLse they were Listening
to. Aweek or two later, when things have changed,
suddenLy it makes complete sense. So I don't torture
musicians. I take what they give me and I'm very
grateful for it. When it comes time to mix, either it
works or it doesn't.
In a case of bl'ingi"g in people like that,
I assume you'l'e happy wal'king with
someone like Mike. You'l'e also
expecting him to wal'k l'eal1y quickly
and have things I'eady to captul'e in
that moment.
Yeah, that's right. There's a great Thelonious Monk
documentary called, Straight, No Chaser. He's in the
studio playing piano, and they're way deep in some
tune, I can't remember what tune they're playing,
He's incredible. It's so beautiful. He finishes the tune,
BURNETT (CONTINUED ON PAGE 4B)/TAPE
OP#67/4
71
it's a good long piece. The producer walks into the Resonance. Exactly. So, what I'm interested in is, if you
room and says, "Okay. You wanna do one?" And Monk
hit this note and this note - these two resonances
turns to the producer and says, "Man! We just did
create this note. And not only this note really, but this
one." And I thought, "I never want to .be that guy!"
array of notes that then start beating against each
That's like Cardinal Rule Number One. Don't be that
other and set up their own melody and rhythm. Just
guy. I don't even know who it is, but I'm sure he's a
hitting two notes, you've already written a song - if
renowned producer and it was just that moment.
you've hit the right two notes, the right way in the
Someone was setting levels.
right room, on the right piano. You've written an
That's it. I remember coming into the studio; I forget
overtone structure, an overtone series. I know
who the engineer was, but the engineer said, "Okay.
compos~rs who compose purely in overtones who can
Would you hit the drums?" to the drummer. I said,
hear seven overtone series. Now that is serious
"No, wait. Why are you wasting your time with that?
listening! So, we're making music that, depending on
What's going on here?" [laughter] All of the guys ­
the room you're in and the volume you're listening to,
Jason, Mikey, Emile - everybody knows that tape is
is going to change dramaticalty. Something we'll talk
rolling all the time. There's no reason not to record.
about later in great depth is that we've started a
What is the reason not to record something?
company: to deal with all the ramifications of the
You started getting some of your more
coUapse and quality control among the recording
industry. In 1954, the Recording Industry and
known successes in the t80's. Thot's a
Assodation of America published a curve - an RIM
time of very overdone studio sessions,
click-tracks, MIDI and a lot of
curve. lt standardized all recordings for over thirty
travesties in my mind - and probably
years. Before that, every manufacturer had had it's
own set of standards. The reason there are tone and
yours as well. [laughter) Did you find
volume controls on record players is because the
yourself, os an artist, being pushed
in directions early on that you really
broadcasters and the listeners were constantly having
to adjust their listening devices, almost having to
resented? Did it kind of farm how you
work now?
guess, what the artist intended. So, starting in 1954,
Only one time. Only once did I do that. It was on a
everybody started speaking the same language.
record called Proa/Through The Night where there was
Everyone had two speakers, an amplifier and a
some echo unit that the producer and eAgineer loved.
turntable. The audience got reatly good at listening. If
They used it allover the record. It just went on and
you think about the musical culture that developed
on. I didn't like it. You know, I've played with MIDI
between 1950 and 1980, it's profound. It completely
and all that stuff. I found some uses for things. I like
and utterly changed the world. Four hilllJilly kids from
gates - gated things. I like triggering gates from one
south nowhere - Johnny Cash, Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee
instrument to another instrument. So, we played with
[Lewis] and Carl Perkins - as well as Sam Phillips, the
the technology that was available at the time.
superstar. They completely changed the world - they
Except, you know, none of it was as powerful as what
really did. They brought down the Iron Curtain. People
George Martin had done when he cut up tape and
want to give [President Ronald] Reagan credit for
spliced it back together randomly. The restrictions of
bringing down the Iron Curtain; I want to give Sam
analog lead to all sorts of wild creativity. There are
Phillips credit for bringing down the Iron Curtain.
people who are doing some interesting things, and How can you provide that for the
have been for some years, in the hip-hop world.
listeners now?
Inventive, really fun, interesting stuff with the It wasn't just them, it was The Beatles and everything else
technology. I enjoy that. We can do all that stuff. At
that came after them. With the advent of digital sound,
some point it runs out of interest quickly for me - I
all standards are out the window. Now it's a complete
feel like I have a job. I much prefer things I can't
free-for-all. We have people making after-market
control. I greatly admire Jackson Pollock, for
devices to make the devices you buy sound better.
instance, as a painter. If I were a painter, I would iPods with tubes.
aspire to be Jackson Pollock. And sonically, that's Yeah! [laughter] It's just madness out there right now.
what we try to do. Some people really don't like it.
We've developed a system for releasing records called
5eme people get offended by the stuff we do.
X 0 6 E (CODE). We're gonna release all our records
In what wa'fl What kind of feedback
in X 0 6 E. It's a system for the production,
manufacture and distribution of records in this age.
have you had?
Too much bass. The vocals are distorted. And by the way, It's a digital distribution system?
there's not too much bass and the vocals aren't It's a lot of things. It's a flexible music company. The
distorted. There are certain devices and certain
old record companies adjusted the dial to the needs
environments that you can play back so it sounds like
of the company. In this model that we've developed,
that. The way we make music, it's alive. We make
all the dials are adjusted to the needs of the artist.
living music. If you use a computer or a synthesizer,
I'm sixty years old and I've been doing this for forty
it just gives you a. sine wave. It gives you one pure
years. I've been working way too hard and way too
tone, one pure sine wave. If you hit a note on a
long to allow my music - the music I work on, care
piano, it has every other note in the piano .in that
about and put my life-blood into - to come out in
note at some volume.
the way it does. Once it leaves my hands, it can go
It has some resonance.
through ten or fifteen different stations, through
148 IT R P E
Qp # 67 IMR. BURNETT/(CDNTlNVED
ON PAGE
50)1
people 1don't even know that do unknown amounts
of work to it. I get CDs back, that sound nothing like
the CD I sent in. The record companies are in
decline. They've thrown their hands up for quality
controL They don't know what they're doing. I'm
just taking it over myself and we're going to control
every single aspect for production, manufacturing
and distribution. We're not going to put DRM
[Digital Rights Management] in anything. We're not
going to cause people to have to copy files, because
we're going to make files for them. We're going to
make the highest quality files in every medium that
they could possibly want.
So, if you buy a record, you get different
ways ta listen to it? I coin put it on my
iPhone and I can go and listen to it
on my studio monitors?
Yeah. We're gonna offer records in three forms; high­
resolution vinyl, which is the way vinyl used to be
made back in the old days - right directly from the
master tape. We're gonna make high-res digital discs
and were gonna make high-res files - 24 bit / 96
kHz files. If you buy anyone of those three, we'll
just give you anything else that you want. We'll
make copies for every other device and every other
envi ronment that you can just have. You can go on
the World Wide Web and download it for free. It's the
only way. When you were asking, "How do you deal
with this lack of standards?" - we've developed a set
of standards that all adhere and relate to one
essential standard. We have a curve developed for
computer speakers that we'll put that through. It
wiR give it the same mix that the master mix has.
In digitizing through all of these new devices; it's
not merely changing the quality of the experien'ce,
it's changing the actual mix. Instruments disappear.
The things with tremendous amount of attack get
louder, the things with less attack get softer. All of
that kind of stuff.
Oh, yeah. Compression formats are
going to steal information.
When you go from analog to 16-bit, you throw out as
much as a third of the information that you've
recorded. That may be a high number, but I'm not
really sure it is. When you consider how far up the
scale you go with everything we've thrown out, from
80 kHz down to 15 Hz.
Don't you feel that we're spoiled
though, because we get to hear 1/2­
inch moster tapes on good monitors?
I'm completely spoiled. But, you know what? For thirty
years all of us were spoiled. That's the point. It's an
artist-driven initiative; it has nothing to do with
record companies or anything else. We are going to
begin releasing music in a way that attempts to
democratize high fidelity, in essence - the way it was
in the '50's.
What artists have you found that are
excited about this concept?
I can't tell you all of them, but the first release is going
to be John Mellencamp's record [Lije, Death, Love and
Freedom].
Interesting.
wanted one of those White Falcons, except I didn't
want it because it was white. I thought, "You
know. if they ever make a black one of those ..." We
were rehearsing in Nashville. I walked into a guitar
shop and there was a black guitar sitting there. j
pulled it out and it was a Black Falcon. It's the first
new guitar, out of the box, that I've bought. I've
been playing it onstage and it just rips. But, you
know. all the same things I used when I first
started - except for a lathe. I used to record
straight to [a cutting] lathe, and we don't do that
that much anymore.
There are people doing it though.
[laughter]
Oh, no. I've got a small, portable kind of lathe. I might
use it fOr loops and stuff like that.
Yeah, that would be fun.
And of course, Ro· ert 'P ant] and Alison's (l<rauss] next
so it was a natural w en they ca led. Also, oth those
record. But you know, everyone we've talked to just
voices have a similar blood-chilling effect. They'have
says, ''Yes!'' immediately because it's a solution. It's a
a visceral effect. I got involved with that by both of
clear solution to a problem we're all having. Because
them being so kind as to invite me.
what's the point of spending $5,000 dollars on a Was there a level of trust that you had to
guitar if it's essentially going to be coming out the
earn in the beginning, as for as
speaker of a Hallmark greeting card? [laughter]
picking songs and guiding the
Because that's what digital sound is, no matter what.
project?
I would also counter that all your Probably, yeah. I never look at it that way.
recordings are so distinctive. Even You're not gonna beg for it. [laughter]
listening to an MP3, your work still No, no. If you think you're going to earn it, it just starts
has a distinctive feel. If you put
feeling like manipulation or something. I don't want
Raising Sand on an iPod, it still
to charm or manipulate somebody into doing
sounds pretty damn good.
something. Ijustwant to help them do the thing that
WelL I'll tell you this: with this new system, we can
make MP3s that sound better than current CDs do.
Re~lly?
they want to do. Seriously. I have no agenda on any
of these records that I go into, other than make the
very best record of the problem we're facing.
But I don't record a live session to a lathe. We used to
do direct-to-disc recording, but I actually like the
sound of tape be.tter myself. I think tape is the best
sounding - unless you go way back. You have to go
way back to beat tape, I think, to those old 78s. If
you get a really old, great Edison player with an
emerald needle - because, you know, that's what he
used to make the needles with.
Really? Atiny piece of emerald?
Yep. They would never die. That's still the best sound. But
just in the last few years, we've begun using Pro Tools.
In what way?
The reason we began using it was because the
converters began to get good enough to actually use
them. Everything that was digitized between 1980­
whenever they started and now - everything is going
to have to be re-digitized because the converters
were such junk in the beginning. They weren't even
consumer-level electronics, in my opinion. They were
just - I don't know who carne up with the program
and decided, "This is good enough." - but they
weren't musicians. I don't know how those decisions
were made.
In that case, there must have been Well, consider how expensive a 32-track
digital machine was back in the day.
I'll be waiting! [laughter]
meetings to discuss haw it was going
Someone is going to drop a couple
We want to make the world sound like a better place.
to go and how many songs to pick.
hundred thousand dollars on this
Hopefully well prevaiL
Yeah, there were conference calls. We were always in
when
they could just roll two tape
Speaking of Raising Sand... this is a case
three different con1:inents.
decks in?
where you're dealing with two artists I bet! [laugbter]
Yeah. Weve figured some stuff out.
who came together with no initial For the first conference call I was in Vancouver at the All of that stuff, yeah.
pre-plan. How did you get involved
salmon hatchery [Capitano River Regional Park] up I never eould figure it aut.
with that?
there in the most extraordinary country - steep Its been a huge mess. I don't blame people for not
Well, Alison called me and asked if I wanted to do it. I
granite, or shale, cliffs. Salmon jumping ten to fifteen
said, ''Yeah!'' Alison and I have had a tremendous ­
feet through the water, waterfalls and huge trees.
I've been fo~lowing Alison for twenty-something
And Alison was in Nashville, I think. And Robert was
years. I've thought, from a very early age, that she
in Bali, or somewhere. Who knows where Robert was!
was the one. The same way I felt Ray Charles was the
But we started talking.
one. The Beatles were the one. There are certain One thing you mentioned earlier was
people that come along that you just say, "There it is.
tape. I could hear tape an Raising
Right there." I hoped to someday even meet her. I
Sand and on your new solo record. I
never really expected that I'd get to work with her.
swear I could hear some hiss.
But over time she began to trust me enough to let Oh, yeah. I only work on tape. I haven't changed
me make records with her. And weve had an
anything I do in forty years. I do exactly the same
incredible amount of luck and fun. Two or three years
thing I do now as I did forty years ago. I use the
ago Robert was going to do a Honeydrippers record [a
same equipment. I just got a new guitar from
sequel to his 1984 EPl. We talked about doing that,
Gretsch, a Black Falcon. When I was a kid, r always
ISO/TAPE OP#67/MR. BURNETT/(CONTINUEO
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52)1
buying CDs anymore because they're not as valuable
as records were and they cost a lot more. Records
were valuable because they sounded better. We're in
a position now where, if you go to a show and you
hear a band and you buy the CD or MP3 - it's like
going to a museum, seeing a painting and then
somebody takes a photograph of the painting ami
then somebody takes a Polaroid of that and then
somebody makes a Xerox of that and then somebodY'1
trying to sell it to you. It's not valuable. I understand
that sense of, you go buy a record, there's one good
song on it, the record sounds like hell - quality has
gone to hell in the music business. People don't want
to pay for it.
Awhile back someone said, "There's less
music being sold, but there's more
people listening to music than ever."
keys every verse. He sang that version, that's on the It never mitigates. But the spikes - you know, peopLe are
record and in the film, on the first take all the way
listening with earphones right by their ears with
through, live.
these heavy, heavy spikes and ifs making people
Had he been working, practicing?
Than ever, yes.
deaf. It's gotta be changed. We have to change this ­
Yeah. We practiced for months and months. But he got
musicians have to change this. For musicians to make
That's a really curious thought.
there, he just got to that point. But, at any rate, we
people deaf is the equivalent of cobblers cutting
Well, it's interesting that people will pay three doLlars for
mix back to tape. EvelYthing's kept on tape,
people's feet off. It's a terrible, terrible outcome.
a cup of GOffee, but won't pay one doLLar for a song.
evelYthing's stored on tape.
[laughter] A song they could have with them for a
No one ever mentions Pro Tools because
hundred years, while this cup of coffee they'Ll only That's probably safe. So, if you do a
it sounds good. You mention other
session, you put everything into Pro
things, like editing convenience
have with them for a couple hours. Going back to
Tools? You move them around, you
and soon.
digital for a minute, because 1 want to finish that
edit stuff. Do you print that off of Pro That's right. At best, it's transparent. The very best thing
thought. We can digress on anyone of these topics!
Tools onto new reels?
that could happen with digital sound is that it be a
Sorry, I think about this all day too.
clone, which it never is even though they've said
Me too. Just in the last fOur or five years, we've started It depends. We did a three-day record with Elvis
[Costello]. We did sixteen songs in three days.
that. But ilt Least it's transparent.
using Pro Tools because the converters, getting it from
Because we went so fast, there may be some things I wonder about how you perceive low­
tape into Pro Tools, sounds good enough that it doesn't
to fix. He might have missed a note or somebody
end frequencies. Because of the
make me sick. The first time 1put on a CD in a recording
might have done something. 1 don't know what's in
delivery format on a CD, you can have
studio I could barely get through two songs before my
there - 1 haven't had a chance to listen to it. We'll
more low-end than vinyl. How do you
ears started hurting, my head started hurting ­
probabLy take some things off, go into Pro Tools, fix
work with that?
physically, literaUy. CDs are a dead medium. We started
them and reprint them back to tape - and then mix Well, alL of the interesting - not all of it - but most of
working when 24 bit /96 kHz Pro Tools recorders came
from tape to tape.
out. We started using them, especially in the film
the interesting elements of sound are in the lower
ranges, where the big waves - like, a 100 cycle tone
business, primarily for editing. It's an incredibly useful Athree-day record?
tool for editing. Once we get an ultra-solid transfer into Yeah. And there will be minimal editing, but the editing
probabLy takes fifteen feet to deveLop. If you hit a
will be done in Pro Tools. But you know, it's a funny
Pro Tools, we'll mix from that because it's fast. Any last
bass drum with a hundred cycle tone and then you hit
thing. Because digitaL is sampLing, because you're
minute edits are moving things. We do a lot of
one here [hands clapping], you've got two tones
only catching part of the sound, it's pointillism.
deveLoping at once. Those two ClJrves are creating an
movement, just groove and things like that.
Is that a typical process that Raising Yeah, yeah. [laugherJ
infinite amount of overtones and overtone series ­
just those two. So then you just keep adding those
Sand or your solo recard would have It's the audio version of pointillism. Your ear is
constantly filling in the holes between the points.
gone through?
up. You're creating an extraordinarily complex sound
Once you go back to tape, it somehow weaves it back
Not so much. More for movies and stuff. The guys 1 work
picture and you're creating a tremendous amount of
together. It puts it back into waveform. It becomes
with are so good, there's just nothing to do. Just turn
depth. What we've been experimenting with is
less harsh and more pleasing again. Digital sound is
on the mic and shut up. [laughter] Say, "That's good."
creating volume by depth rather than by peaks and
harsh; it's jagged. A ten thOllsand cycle tone on a
But say, when you're working on 0
spikes. Not dB volume, but size volume. One of the
piece of tape, when you look at it, looks about Ii ke a
Brother Where Art Thou? or
great attributes that was trumpeted of digitaL sound
sine wave. Overnight, even? It will settle and round
something like that?
in the beginning was that there was no surface noise.
off. All of those peaks and spikes were mitigated in
We didn't have to deaL with signal to noise ratio. We
Yeah, then there's ramifications to everything.
analog sound. In digital sound, the one thing that
Or especially on Walle the Line.
had an extraordinariLy wide dynamic range. And yet,
digital can absolutely handle well is an attack, a
Yeah, there was a lot of work on that. But I'll tell you,
the inertia of the record business for the last forty
spike.
Joaquin Phoenix did 98% of the work on that. The
years, where everything was brighter and Louder
song, "I Walk The Line", is in five keys. It changes It stays the same.
trying to overcome surface noise, continued into the
digital age to the point now where we're only - and
when I say "we" I mean producers, engineers,
manufacturers and all of that - are using the top 5%
of the dynamic range of the CD. EvelYthing's brick­
wall limited up to the very top. And you're completely
leaving out this other 95% of the great attributes of
CDs. You don't have the pro/;)lem of the needle
jumping out of the groove because there's so much
bottom. So you can explore that whole 95%. It's a
question of finding how much low tone you can put
on, at what volume, and at what relationship to the
high tones. Because the high tones don't have to be
very loud to be heard.
They come through.
If you've ever been to football stadium and heard a
marching band; if you sit up at the top there can
twenty-five tubas bLowing their brains out, but at the
top all you can hear is the one guy playing a triangle.
Those triangle sounds go fast. In the time it takes a
single 100 cycle tone to complete, 100 ten cycle
tones have completed. [finger snaps] So it's zoom,
the high sounds go. You can put them way, way back
Brother, Where Art Fhou? because it's a lot of bam
there ~md they're still effective. It's a question of now, Really? [laughter]
wood. It's not as dark a sound as you get at Village
in this new medium, of looking for the new balance. I had this one, uApparently he judges
Recorders, but it's still like playing up in the
good takes on the phone. If it catches
What makes sense in this medium as a balance? We're
his ear, then the band is really on to
ho~lers. You know, there's a reason why regions used
experimenting all the time - it's all completely
to have sounds. The reason people used the say the
something."
experimental.
music coming out of NashviLLe sounded so nasal is
I'm sure that leads into the ma~erin9 Oh! [laughter] Well, I'd say that's probably referring to
because the Indians called the valley that
and working with Gavin [Lurssen,
mejust kind of roaming around the house when things
Nashville's in "The Valley of the Fevers". There's Sll
are going on. Now, when the band is playing and the
mastering engineer) these days. Do
much pollen and everyone has fevers all the time,
you get a lot of feedback from him
singer is singing and all of that, I'm sitting right there
so everyone's noses are stopped up all the time. So
about how the mixes are gonna work
listening with full-force. That's the part that's exciting
and how he can help tailor it
to me. When the live thing is happening on the fioor,
it does get twangy. There's a reason why. Also,
different woys?
I'm right there. And most of the time I'm sitting in the
another part of it is the cicadas are so loud that
when you're playing music you're always having to
Alot We work with him all the way through the process.
room with the musicians. I recently finished a B.B.
King record. Mac Rebennack [Dr. John], B.B. and Jay
blend with the cicadas. That creates a certain kind
Really? Do you send him mixes as you're
going and say, ((What do you think of
of tone. Like, if you're hitti ng a mandolin, you're
Bellerose were right there. And I was sitting with no
having to blend with this other tone. Fiddles,
our direction?"
earphones, just listening. I knew if I could hear Mac
everything. Everything is blending with that drone.
Yeah. He and Mikey stay in close touch. It's not like that
and if I could hear B.B. - I knew if they were good,
It affects your tone because that tone is already
anymore because we've developed such
that was a take. Because I knew none of these other
cats were gonna screw anything up. And I could hear
taken up. You can't play in that tone because you
communication and we sort of know where we're
can't hear it. It would be eradicated by the crickets.
going. But at some points we'LL take it to him. We are
the drums; Keltner was also there. So I didn't have to
Or you take someone like Ralph Stanley, who grew
now mixing through every possible, conceivable
even think about that or sweat it. I can just sit there
up in a holler, in a canyon in Virginia. The trees i~
device. We've got the top twenty selling devices in
as a listener and listen to Mac and B.B. play live. If
the holler - the density of the trees, the type of
the world that we're considering listening on, that
they got it, I could say "Yeah. Let's go." I just don't
trees - all affected the way he spoke, sang,
we're monitoring through, for our mixes.
have the patience to do overdubs anymore. I've been
everythi ng - because you're reflecting off all these
What kind af things? Like computer
doing it too long. So, I'm just kind of around the
house. But I might be on a phone call and the sijnger
different surfaces.
speakers?
in the other room starts singing and I have to put You talk about the surfaces in a room.
Yeah, I don't know the names of any of them.
down the phone and go in and say, "Okay, that's it.
One thing I heard is that you don't
iPod earbuds?
allow road cases in the live room.
Earbuds, for sure. Extension speakers for sure. I don't
You just got it. Don't do anymore."
know. I'm completely non-technical.
When you say you're working in your Yeah, because they're vinyl. I don't allow plastic drum
house, what is the set-up? Is it a
heads either. I don't allow any synthetic surfaces.
In a way though, do you feel that's an.
home stud,io that you have or is it
house that you use as studio?
asset?
Being non-technical?
Q'
Being non-technical. And cdso, one of I have a house that I use as a studio and offices. It used
the things I see you doing is
to be a house with a little studio in one comer and
ossembling
teams:
musicians,
then the studio took it over.
engineers, etc.
It's easy to do! [laughter]
Yeah. It's good to be able to stay outside of it. But Mikey Yeah. And we do everything in there now. We do all our
will tell me when somethijng goes wrong. I usually know
mixing.
what's going wrong even though I don't know And does that have a small-ish live area
technically why; I've been doing it for so long I'm able
for performing?
to say, "Oh, that's this." And then they'll go, "Oh, okay." It's got five or six live areas.
Don't you think it's also a process of Different sounds in them?
divarcing yourself from thinking Yeah.
something is supposed to happen And when you go to do a record like say,
because an action's been taken?
Raising Sand, are there certain
criteria that you use to remember
Making sure that you're really
rooms that you know would feel
listening?
really good for this?
That's right too.
I mean, because a lot of people get into, Well, you know a room is just a box. It's just like the
\\1 put the compressor on that. It
body of a guitar. It's just a box that resonates. I've
found a few of those rooms - I know certain rooms
should be good." And maybe they
plugged it into the wrong inserts.
work really weLL for certain kinds of instruments.
And they think they've got the compressor on. That can
happen. There's all that psycho-acoustic lunacy. I try
to stay outside of it. Most of the time I don't play on
records when I'm producing for that very reason. I
don't really want to learn the song.
You just want to hear the results.
[laughter]
Yeah. I just want to hear the music.
I had some af our readers post online
questions for you.
154/T~PE OP#67/MR.
Calfskin heads?
Yeah . .1 don't allow any synthetic surfaces anywhere
around. I don't like modern guitars because they're
laminated. If you get an old-time guitar from the
'20s, '30s, '40s, '50s or even '60s - you can scrape the
lacquer off like nothing. The new guitars are
laminated, so you're already in a plastic age. You're
alreacly in an age of controlled sound, rather than an
age of raw, free sound. And that's everything. You can
take a plastic head and process it for ni ne million
years and it will never sound as good as if you had
just gotten a calfskin head and hit it once.
But certainly you favor processing at the
amp. Like say on, the guitar sound on
((Fortune Teller" or something like
that.
The only processing on "Fortune Teller" is a tremolo.
Do you ever demo songs before a session?
No. The thing you hear is the demo.
But for yourself as a writer, to capture
things?
I play it until r remember it. That's the only way I can write
a song is to keep playing it until I remember it. If I
The room at Viltage that I use most of the time, I
record it, then I'll forget it and I'll never get back to it.
use because the surfaces are all dark wood. The
whole thing is dark wood and it gets a very, very Do you feel that songs you would
initially forget weren't strong
dark sound. It really does. I'm very careful about
enough anyway?
surfaces in the studio. There's a minimal amount of
glass, there's just enough glass to sort of brighten Yes! Sometimes I feel like I've had the greatest songs in
the world and I'm too blasted to remember them. But
things up if you want them to be. But almost
everything is wood. With Raising Sand, we wanted
maybe I was so blasted that it wasn't that great an
to go into the studio that ("Cowboy"] Jack Clement
idea to begin with! [laughter]
built called Sound Emporium, where we also cut 0
BURNETTI(cO'NTlNUED ON PAGE
56~1
---
Yeah, there's always that theory! One of
the things thot Robert Plant and
Alison have talked obout is that you've
created a magicol environment.
Tolking obout vibe, beyond picking
the room ond 011 the things. Do you
look at lighting, do you look at things
you bring to put in the room?
I did two or three hip-hop pi€ces to the soundtrack on I do. I think people have been segmented to the point
The Lady Killers, which is actua~ly one of my favorite
that they're all disgusted with the very notion of it.
records I've ever worked on.
You're either a Republican or a Democrat. And if you're
Really?
a Republican, you believe these three things and if
We took some old gospel tunes and sampled them and
you're a Democrat you believe these three things. I
hip-hopped them.
think most of us don't believe any of them! [laughter]
You have faith ~n your life, with You walk into a record store sometimes
Christionity. It seems to come out in
and it's kind of limiting to be in a
you r music. Does it come out with the
Yes, all that stuff. Environment. I always set up the
certoin section. Or you look on
people you work with? Does it eyer
studio as if it is a living room.
iTunes and see categories. I don't
hinder or help?
Like table lomps, floor lamps?
know what category something I like
Yes, couches and chairs; stuff like that. I set it up so It only helps. I have to say I've had no plan. aut it does
is going to fall into.
seem more and more that almost every record I do is a
that we can sit around in the living room and play
gospel record. Strangely, 0 Brother was a gospel album
and record that too. The living room area is mic'ed
- a lot of gospel music was on there. "Down to the River
because a lot of times the casual thing that you're
to Pray", for example. I just finished a record with
doing when you're running the song down is actually
Robert Randolph that's certainly a gospel record. I look
the thing. r sort of mic the whole room. The lighting
at my own records as gospel records, whether they are
is crucial. Having a comfortable environment, instead
or not. I don't really care. It's what I call gospeL
of a sterile environment where it's all about
recording. It's more like, "Okay, we're here now. Let's Your new album, Tooth oj Cl'ime, could
be pushing the limits of that!
be comfortable." So much of it is getting people to
[laughter]
relax. And you know what the other part of it is,
rearLy? I don't mean to sound mawkish in any way, Well, the new one is written from not my point of view.
It's written from the characters.
but really the magic is love. It's Loving the people and
hopefully them loving you. You know, the It feels like character studies inspired
the songs. Iu a writer, that's always
disappointment is where the people don't love you.
Their categories are usually useless. They were useful in
the old days because audiences were being
segmented by corporations through radio to drive
people from one radio station to another. 'We want
these people from this age group."
For marketing?
Yeah. They're able to sell advertising for more money if
they have a concen~rated audience of the exad
people they want to reach. That's Where that grew out
-of. For an artist it's death and at very best a complete
waste of time.
I think even now, especially, audiences
find things in such various ways
because of the Internet and medi.a.
fun to play with.
When it doesn't come bock? When it's
Yeah. It's much more fun that way. Without having it put
Yeah, it's very freeing.
down your throat.
not reciprocal?
Yeah. At some point. you just pull back and you don't Certainly someone could listen to it and' With 0 Brothel' and Raising Sand as top
think, <~ow! That guy's twisted!"
love. Then it's a bummer.
sellers compared to what else is in the
[laughter]
Do you ever have situotions where there
charts, it seems kind of shocking. Doyou
are people involved and you've gotto Yeah! "What's wrong with this guy?" [laughter]
heM! a sense of accomplishment there?
be like, «This person is not conducive <lOh, I thought he wos happy!"
Yeah, yeah. I've got so much more to accomplish in that
regard. I feel that I'm fighting a completely losing battle
to what we're working on." I know Yeah. "Why isn't he happy? What's wrong with him?"
at the same time. [laugher] I feel personaLw, as an
you've got your own engineering I knowyou took ClIbout fourteen years off
between albums of your own
team, but are there times when
individual record maker, I am in a much better position
material. Does having a focus like
other people· intrude in some woy to
than these huge, wealthy, funded record companies that
that - a ploy to write for or
create a problem?
have seemed so monolithic. I've been doi ng battle with
extrapolate from - help you write?
No. I never have that happen.
them for thirty or forty years. They are less and less weU
Yeah. The thing that's the most difficult these days is
Well, you've been lucky! [laughter]
funded all the time. They have no credibility left. No one
I think it's evident that I've been lucky! [laughter] There
are people in the past. I can remember a record many
years ago where the artist wanted to hire an engineer
and I said to the engineer, "Okay, I'll hire you. Just
no digital echo." I had heard some of his records and
it was aU digital echo. I said, "You can come mix this
record, but no digital echo." I walked in the first day
and the first twenty faders were all digital echoes.
That was kind of it for me.
What ended U,p happening in that
s~enario?
WeU, in that particular scenario, that was one of those
artists that didn't love me. [laughter] At that point I
said, "I have to withdraw from this record because I
can't stand the way it sounds. I'm sony to say, but if
this is the way you want it to sound, I cannot put my
name on it. I've been working my whole life not to
sound like this." So that's what happened in that case.
finding a frame. Everything's come unbundled, as
they say. In the old days, when you'd buy a single, it
would have an Aand a a-side. So you'd be buying two
songs, instead of one song. Now it's just song by song
by song. The audience, rightfulLy, became so dis­
enamored with the idea of an album. They'd go spend
$15 or more on an album and there would be one
good song on it. So, everything came apart. The
important thing to do is create a frame so people can
say, "Oh, yeah. This actually is an album." I love the
medium of an album, of multiple songs that tell a
whole story, that leads you from one place to another.
I believe in albums. The key part is to give it an
identity so that epch song relates to each other song
in some important way so it's not just a collection of
songs. You know, singer-songwriters back in the old
days would be like, "Okay. Now here's my funk song,
my folk song and my country song."
wiU believe a thing they say anymore.
No. It all starts to look pretty ridiculous
at this point. It's too bad. One thing
fhat could get lost is back catalogues
and things like that. Think of all the
back catalogues that never came out
on CD.
Right. That will all be remedied.
It seems like it could.
No, it will. It will definitely aU be remedied. In the next
twenty years, that will a~l be taken care of - maybe
even sooner. It depends on how fast things move.
Things are gonna be put back in shape. Things have
to be put back in shape. The record companies, for all
the horrible things I said about them today, also did
an incredibly important thing for 100 years, which
was to record alL this culture and even create a great
deal of culture - that is a national treasure and it
needs to be preserved. And it needs to be preserved
with great respect and care. <6'
Do you think you would ever do Yeah, to fill a niche. (laughter]
something completely different for "Yeah, I've got one of everything." Instead, with Alison
and Robert, we were able to put this frame around it
you, like say, a hip~hop record?
www.tbonebumett.com
I'd love to! I've done some hip-hop records.
Which o,nes?
15 6/TAPE
OP#67/MR. BURNETTI(FIN.)I
of "post-genre" music.
Do you think that's part of its success?
Thanks to Ken Weinstein for maldng this interview possible
and understanding why.