PDF Transcript - 1965 March 11

TAPE-RECORDED INTERVIEW WITH CHARLES BARROWS
AT HIS STUDIO ON BISHOP ' S LODJE ROAD, SANTA FE, NEW MEXICO
MARCH 11, 1965
INTERVIEWER:
MRS SYLVIA LOOMIS
SL
CB
Sylvia Loomis
Charles Barrows
SL
This is an interview with Mr. Charles Barrows at his studio on Bishop's Lodge
Road, Santa Fe, on March 11, 1965.
The interviewer is Mrs. Sylvia Loomis of
the Santa Fe office of the Archives of American Art, and the subject to be
discussed is Mr. Barrows ' s association with the Federal Art Progeet in the
1930's and 40's.
First, Mr. Barrows, would you tell us somethi.ng about yourself, where you
were born, and where you received your art education?
CB
I was born in Washington, Pennsylvania.
I received my first art education
in a night course at Carnegie Tech in Pittsburgh, and the f ollowing surruner
at the summer school of the Academy of Fine Arts, and after that one semester
at the Art Students League.
Then after that I had very little formal educa-
tion.
SL
Who did you study with a t the League?
CB
Well,
I studied at the Lea~ue_ un~er _(JobnJ Slo_~n.z. but that wa~ af'i;er Lcam_e
out here.
He got me a scholarship there.
SL
And when did you come to New Mexico?
CB
In 192tl .
SL
What did you do before you became involve d with the PWA Project?
CB
I was painting on my own.
SL
And then how did you become involved in that project - - that was the first
I was an art student.
one of the Federal Art Projects - - in 1934?
Barrows, pg 2
CB
Well, that was in the depth of the depression, and that's why the project
was formed.
It wasn't easy to make a living and this was an opportunity
to keep on painting and still get a little bit of living at the same time.
SL
Was that under the supervision of Gus Baumann?
CB
Yes.
SL
And what work did you do on that project?
CB
On that project I assisted James Morris by painting some murals for the
Normal School at El Rito (New Mexico).
SL
Were those frescoes or oils?
CB
They were oil on canvas.
SL
Did you do them right there?
CB
No, we painted them here and took them up there and applied them.
SL
Did you work together in the composition of this, or did he block the
paintings in?
CB
They were Jim's compositions and I simply filled in after he laid out the
sketches and I filled out the color according to his color schemes.
· SL
Do
you know whether those are still there?
CB
No, I don't.
SL
I have never been inside the building.
~ KD.ow
I haven't been there for a long time.
2f t hey a re there ~ either.
I have been to El Rito, but I don't
Well, then, did you transfer directly from
the PWAP to the WPA Art Project in 1935?
CB
I'm not sure.
As a matter of fact, I think that was in between
when I
went back to Pennsylvania, and in Pennsylvania I was on an art project there,
teaching for about three months.
Then I came back out here .
SL
Where was that in Pennsylvania?
CB
It was a small town called - - I've forgot ten - - it was the old home of my
wife, and we had gone back there because she was having a child.
Barrows, pg 3
SL
Had you met John Sloan at that time?
CB
Yes, I met John when I first came here in
1
28 .
He was living here
at the
time in the summers.
SL
Did you study with him at all?
CB
Only at the League, but not out here.
SL
Well, what was your owrk on the WPA project under Vernon Hunter?
CB
Mostly in watercolors under Hunter.
And I did a few drawings and, as I
remember, three lithographs also .
SL
I remember seeing qui te a few of your paintings in the Museum Collection
here in the Santa Fe Art Gallery, and then when I was in Arizona a couple of
weeks ago I saw your lithographs in the collection of prints at the University
of Arizona.
So I was under the impression that you were quite versatile.
I had thought you had painted some oils.
CB
But
You said not.
I had painted oils, but I didn ' t do any on the project.
I was a better water-
color painter, so I stayed with the watercolors.
SL
How did you like lithography?
CB
I
wasn 't too excited about it.
ing; I like the more direct.
I don't like the indirect me thods of paint-
The thing I am painting is what I am doing, the
thing doesn't have to be transferred from stone to paper.
SL
Yes.
How long were you on the project?
CB
I think altogether probably two years, not much more.
SL
You did a lot of work in that time.
Was there any time limit in which you
were given to do a painting?
CB
None, none whatsoever.
I simply painted every day what I felt like painting,
and I don ' t know if it was once a month or twice a month.
Vernon Hunter came
out and collected what he thought was the best of the work I had done.
Barrows, pg 4
SL
That was when you were in Chimayo?
CB
Yes, I was in Chimayo at the time.
SL
Were there any other artists working out there too?
CB
At Chimayo?
SL
Was very much 0£ that done then - - living outside of Santa Fe?
CB
I didn 't know any at the time who were living out of Santa Fe, except of
No .
course in Taos.
SL
Well, what did you do after you left the project?
CB
I don't know what year that was, but shortly after that I came back to
New York again .
It's all very vague after so long ...
SL
It's a long time to remember back.
CB
I have, however, always made my living in something related to the arts,
either decorating this and that or the other, or making silk screen prints,
or silk-screen printing, or some allied art at least.
SL
Yes.
I wanted to ask about your Tewa Enterprises and what time those
started .
CB
I starte d Tewa Enterprises in 1951 because I was aware that there was a
greater market for Indian paintings than the Indians could supply, and also
the way the Indians painted was a perfect kind of painting to be reproduced
oy-:Che s ilk-screen printing process.
Then if I could do a perfect reproduc-
tion of the Indian painting by the process , then there would be a great
sale for the prints.
And it proved very successful right from the begin-
ning.
SL
I remember seeing some when I first came to New Mexico .
CB
I have now reproduced about ten of the Indian artists, something like 75 or
80 of their paintings.
And also a few other artists -- non-Indian painters .
Barrows, pg 5
SL
Do they still keep coming to you with their paintings?
CB
Always there are some coming wanting to have something done - - wanting to
see if I want to reproduce some prints.
SL
Would you tell us something about these Indian artists?
CB
Well, the most famous is Harrison Begay, who is still living; Gerald Nayler
has been dead for four, five years; and I have also done Pop Challee, Alan
Hauser, Turahoma, Tsinnejinni - - another Navaho
the best of the Apache painters.
SL
and Frank Vigil -- one of
I think that's all.
You had your studio previously in Santa Fe, didn't you - - at the Borrego
House?
Until 1959 on Canyon Road .
CB
Yes.
SL
Where did you learn the silk-screen process?
CB
Well, I learned that indirectly through the WPA Art Project .
I wasn 't on
the project, but that's what I did after I left the proje ct here.
I got
off it because I had a side income, or my wife had a side income, which was
too much to allow me to work on the project.
And that's what happened.
I
went to New York and the silk-screen process of making prints was at that
time just being developed by artists on the WPA Project .
Before
process had been used only for commercial posters and so on.
that the
The artists
there were developing the technique for making painting reproductions, and
I went down to the project there and just worked with the fellows for a few
days and learned what they were doing, and went on from there myself.
SL
You went as a student and not as a teacher?
CB
Not as a teacher and not as an artist on the Art Project.
SL
Did you know Beatrice Mandelman?
CB
Very well.
I was a charter member of the Serigraph Society which was formed
somewhere in those days in the late 30 1 s.
I was a member of that Serigraph
Barrows, pg 6
Society for many years.
I exhibited through their gallery in New York for
quite a few years.
SL
I had an interview with Louie Ewing, who did silk screen on the project.
CB
He did that here, while I was in New York.
SL
Yes, and I asked him about you, because I knew you had been on the project,
but he said there was no relationship, that you hadn't worked with him on
this at all.
CB
He was the first one to do it here.
SL
Yes, he said that he was allowed a great deal of leeway in his experimenting
under Vernon Hunter, and that he was the first one to do it in his area, but
the fact that you were so well known for your silk-screen print in this area,
I thought there might be some connection.
But he said there wasn 't, so I had
been curious about where you did learn the process which I knew was new at
that time for paintings.
Well, how do you think the work on the project af-
fected your career as an artist?
CB
Well, those three years, being free of the pressures of making a living, allowed me to develop faster than I could have done otherwise, I am sure.
I did
more in those few years, probably, than I could have done in two or three times
as long, if I had had to be doing something
see.
else to help make a living, you
A period of concentrated work like that is much more valuable than scat-
tere d bits of painting.
It was very valuable.
SL
Were you completely free to experiment in any way you wanted?
CB
Absolutely .
There were no restrictions at all.
Vernon was a very good super-
visor.
SL
I have heard that from all the artists I have interviewed in this area .
did allow people to go their o-vm way.
He
Barrows, pg 7
CB
That was very important.
thing for nothing.
The artists were not on there just to get some-
All the artists want to do anyway is paint and this
simply gave them an opportunity to do it.
SL
How did you get along with Gus Baumann, by comparison?
CB
I had practically nothing to do with Gus, simply because he supervised
Morris rather than me, you see.
MY being an assistant, I didn't come
directly under his supervision.
SL
I see.
Well, what are your feelings in general about that project, other
than what you have said already?
CB
I think it was a good idea and I think it should have been continued.
I
always did think it should be continued.
SL And do you think your fellow artists shared that feeling?
CB
I ' m sure many of them do.
SL
Did they also feel that it gave them the same kind of chance to be creative - -?
CB
I know many of them did, there's no doubt of it - -
it carried them over a
very bad period.
SL
Yes, there is no question about that.
Well, now do you think this might have
given a great impetus to art in America?
CB
This is hard to say.
I think the impetus of art comes from something else - -
-- - - Tt woUial5e- U1ere - wnetnerlt's- su"bsJ.dlzeaor- not .- - Tfie
arl;is~c5UraSimpry--
suffer, and the world would suffer from having less of it, but the impetus
will still be there.
SL
I see.
CB
It encourages, that's all, it helps it along.
SL
And what effect do you think the projects had on the appreciation of art in
America by the general public?
- -- - -----
Barrows, pg 8
CB
I think it was great in that respect because in the first place it made the
whole general public aware of such a thing, it made the whole general public
aware that artists were people, and that artists were doing things, and
artis t s were doing things that were valuable.
And they saw a lot more paint-
ings because there were many more exhib its and many of the things that were
made on the project were hung in public buildings all over the country, so
that everybody saw a lot more of it .
It was great for the people as well as
for the artists .
SL
Do you think that has been reflected in the sale of art work since then?
CB
I think undoubtedly it must have, because the more the public becomes aware
of art, the more they are going to spend money to buy it.
SL
Well, I know before that
Paris was considered the main art center of the
world, and that most people thought you had to get art from Europe in order
to have anything good.
CB
And also it was a very expensive thing.
Actually, the project brought art
home to them, that was a very important fact.
SL
That's what I always felt myself.
CB
Yes.
SL
If the government were to subsidize a similar project in the future,
- - - rorrnd-o
CB
you ~nink ~rt
what
sliou:rata:ire~ -
Well, they worked out two forms that seemed to me to be very good.
One was
the mural project, and at that time all government buildings had to give two
percent or something of the cost toward murals for the buildings, which is a
very important item because there are a lot of mural painters in the country
that don 't have enough wall to paint on
and good ones -- and then the
other aspect of allowing the artist who wants to paint pictures to paint
Barrows, pg 9
absolutely on his
OYm,
exactly what he wants to paint .
other better way that it could be done .
I don 't know of any
The big problem is such a thing, it
has to be limited to how many are going to be on it, the problem is who is
going to be on it, who is going to make the selection.
worked out .
This will have to be
That means some kind of national jury or national competitions .
I don ' t know of any other way they could be done.
SL
Well, I know that a good many of the first PWAP murals were on a competitive
basis and then the Treasury Department also had these competitions.
Several
artists that I have interviewed had commissions in completely different parts
of the country .
CB
Yes.
They would apply f or one of these
The competitive basis is about the best way that it could be done on
murals .
I don 't know of anything else that could be done
~bout
that.
It
seeme d to work out very satisfactorily too!
SL
Well, the unfortunate thing about this entire project, to my way of thinking, .
is that it was based on need, and that it was necessary to have relief status
in a good many cases in order to get on the projects.
CB
Yes.
SL
I think that it was somewhat diff i cult for a great many
in~ependent
people
to have to concur in that in order to get a job.
matter of fact, I would say some of them were too independent - - they would
rather starve than submit to what they considered a degrading thing - - being
on a relief status .
In other words, they didn 't want to accept what seemed to
be charity for what they considered was of great value to the world.
A lot of
them looked at it that way.
SL
Yes, that's what I felt was a great flaw in this - - this feeling on the part
Barrows, pg 10
of many artists -- and I understand how they would feel about it, too .
Well,
are there any additional comments you would like to make about that particular
period?
CB
No, I can ' t think of anything on the spur of the moment .
SL
Were there any objections on the part of any of the artists as to the way the
project was administered?
CB
Oh yes, of course there were gripes all of the time .
Artists always gripe.
No matter how it is done, they ' ll find things to gripe about.
SL
CB
What kind of things?
Some of them might have been justified and some of them probably weren't.
Well, I did hear gripes of too much supervision at times by certain artists .
They fe lt they were being told they had to work from 8 in the morning to 4 in
the afternoon, or something - - some such thing -- as they would do if they
were working in a factory , practically punching a time clock.
this.
They felt that if they felt like starting work a t
was when they should start, and work until
be said about working when they felt like it, or no t .
does his best work when he is feeling best.
- -- -
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- - - --
9 o'clock that that
6 if they wanted to, or work only
until l o ' clock if they wanted to, or felt like it.
-
They resente d
--
There was something to
An artist undoubtedly
-
SL
Yes, of course.
CB
Because inspiration is a word that is hard to describe, but it certa inly has
its place in the work of an artist.
He's working because of an inner urge,
and this inner urge comes and goes, he just doesn ' t have it eight hours a day
in between
8 and 4.
Oh, some of the artists resented this aspect -- that
they were expected to put in certain hours within certain limits.
Barrows, pg 11
SL
Well, Vernon Hunter was the supervisor of these projects .
Did this apply to
New Mexico, or was thi s more general?
CB
This was more general.
It doesn ' t apply at all , in my memory, to Vernon
Hunter.
SL
Well, that was what I was getting at -- whether or not you did have to punch
time clocks, that sort of thing -- or whether you had to turn out a certain
number of paintings in a certain length of time, because it seems to vary
throughout the country .
CB
It definitely seemed to vary .
I knew in New York when I was down there with
the boys learning the silk-screen process, they were required to print one
color a day on whatever picture they were making; that is, they were re quired
to make the stencil and print a hundred prints of one color per day .
SL
Oh!
CB
Well, that's very little to do if you know what you are doing and can go
right to it, but sometimes it might take longer than that to make a stencil,
but you make a change in the process of trial and error .
So
to require one
a day might push you to the degree that that one color might not be as good
as it would have been if they had two days to do it, you see .
But they had
no experience, that is, the supervisors -- the people running the thing weren ' t
-
--art ists~
~---
-
ana tneyr e1t that- they were expected to get something for their
money, much as in any commercial enterprise .
But art is not a commercial
enterprise and they had no yardsticks to go by, so that was one of the things
they did .
They did make exceptions to the requirements, sometimes they were
all right, and sometimes they were definitely not all right .
SL
But there wasn ' t much of that out here?
CB
There was very little of that out here, that I remember.
Barrows, pg 12
SL
Do you remember any complaints at all out here?
CB
Yes, I do.
liked.
There were complaints with Gus Baumann -- he wasn 't very well
I don 't know just what it was about, because I didn ' t have a personal
contact with him myself, but I know some of the artists had fights with him.
SL
I sort of gathered that.
CB
I don 't know about it personally, but it was true.
Willard Nash got to the
point where he wouldn 't let him in his house.
SL
Is that right?
Well , Gus is pretty opinionated and if things weren't the
way he thought they ought to be, I can imagine he could be a little difficult .
CB
Tnat was a problem.
But that didn 't last very long, as I remember .
I don't
think he was on very long.
SL
No, i+ was only about a year .
CB
He didn 't like it any better than the artists !
SL
No, I don't think he did !
CB
As a matter of fact, I think he wanted to supervise too much .
SL
Yes.
CB
He wanted to practically dictate to the artist and if he went to the artist ' s
studio and the artist wasn 't there, well then he held it against them -- he
thought they should be there working .
tG lduy- thi-s,- tha.47,
0r~the-other,
While the artist may have gone downtown
you-kmm~
. -m~- was-onewno
expected you
t o~be
-
there any hour he wanted to come around in the day to see what you were doing .
SL
Oh yes .
CB
They resented that, definitely.
SL But during the Vernon Hunter days
CB
you don 't recall anything of that sort?
I don 't remember anything much at all about Vernon Hunter, and I'm sure he
got just as much work out of them as Baumann did.
Barrows, pg 13
SL
He probably got more, because I think if an artist is allowed to work without these restrictions , he does much better work.
your style to that extent.
do you know?
Do
About how many artists were there in this area,
you remember?
CB
I think there were forty-one employed in Santa Fe.
SL
Is that right?
CB
There was another fault to that project .
or here.
You can't be cramped in
Anybody in town
I don't know if that was national
that they couldn't fit in on any other project,
particularly old ladies that should have been sewing on buttons or something- if they couldn't fit them in any place else, they would stick them on the Art
Project.
It lowered the status terribly.
they were making an Index of Design.
not sure.
Under the project Lou Ewing was on
I think Louie made the wood blocks, I' m
There were wood blocks made and then these were hand colored, and
a ll these old ladies -- who should be sewing on buttons and had no artistic
training at all -- they had them filling in the colors on these.
get anybody to do them, a child could do them.
They could
Well, I got into a mess --
there was so much of this t hat was lousy work that Vernon came out to me and
practically begged me to do it over, so at least it would be presentable.
lot had to be thrown out.
o ver- some
of ~hese
A
But I did spend some time during that project doing
-
~ --
ba dly done things.
But those people shouldn 't have been on
the project at all.
SL
Well , I ' ve heard that complaint from E. Boyd.
CB
We probably had more than ten percent who should not have been on the project
at all.
Before the art project they didn't call themselves artists , they had
no training, they hadn't been painting , you see, and they had no business on
it.
Maybe something like ten percent shouldn't have been on that project.
Barrows, pg 14
SL
Well, I have heard of this objection from E. Boyd, who was also involved in
this.
CB
I think she did the original drawings for that Index of American Design.
Oh, yes -- she would have been complaining .
It was her work that they were
messing up.
SL
Yes.
So she was quite unhappy about some of the things they turned in, be-
cause she said they worked with just little boxes of watercolor paints, and
even though she had a sample for them to follow they just didn 't do it.
CB
It was amazing how they could mess up those things, and how far off they would
get the color.
because
Vernon did not have any right to throw them off, and evidently
he didn 't determine their getting on, you see .
It was kind of a
problem.
SL
Well, I suppose tho se things were some of the administrative problems from
higher up.
CB
Yes.
As I say, it was a very difficult thing to decide how people got on.
Need was the first thing, but it seemed to me that as well as need, artistic
ability should have been important on an art project !
SL
Yes, I would have thought that the screening process should have been a little
more stringent than that, because certainly if people hadn't had any art training, they shouldn 't have qualified for the Art Project, but, as you say, for
s_om.e___other-pro,3~G't---su&h -as
sewi-Bg-, -e r- ~ome-th:i:-ng
-they- coul-U- d:o bette r.------ !lo -you-- -
think of anything else you would like to say?
CB
Not without a prodding.
SL
And you say you don't have any papers left of that period, or any records?
We 're also trying to collect papers and records as much as we can.
CB
In fact, I had no papers in reference to this.
SL
Probably not, as you dealt directly with the supervisors, you wouldn't have
Barrows, pg 15
had occasion to .
Well, we are
this interesting interview.
very grateful to you, Mr. Barrows, for
It gives us another angle on
the work of the
Federal Art Project in New Mexico.
CB
I am very happy to give it, because I think it is a worthy project.
Anything
new they intend to do, I think is also good.
SL
We hope to publish a survey called the New Deal and the Arts from this material we have been gathering from the artists we have interviewed, and from
the records that are still available.
But there aren't too many of them,
and some artists are going, too, so we're glad to hear your comments about
this.
Thank you very much.
END OF TAPE