Interview no. 849 - DigitalCommons@UTEP

University of Texas at El Paso
DigitalCommons@UTEP
Combined Interviews
Institute of Oral History
7-4-1994
Interview no. 849
Jane H. Bright
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Recommended Citation
Interview with Jane H. Bright by John R. Moore, 1994, "Interview no. 849," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.
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I'NIVERSTTY OF TEXAS AT EL PASO
ORAL HISTORY INSTITUTE
BrG BEND NATIONAL PARK ORAL HISTORY PROJECT, Lgg4.
TNTERVTEFEE/ADDRES8s
Jane H. Bright,
Tx. 79925.
IIilIERVIEB
DAIE:
JuIy
3309 Boshan Dr.,
El paso,
BY: John R. Moore
4,
1994
LENGTE OF INTERVIEf,:
t hour,
10 minutes/English
SuuuARy: Jane Henderson Bright
was born and raised
in the
Maravillas
creek area, north of what is now Big Bend National
Park. She is related
to the Roy and Hallie
stitlwell
family.
resided
in the Big Bend/Black cap area from 1918 until
world
II.
She
War
Bright offers perspective
on famity rife and hardships in
the Big Bend area. Her farnily once owned 14 sections of rlnch
Iand and controlled
an additional
L4 sections of Texas school
land in the Maravillas
creek and Black Gap area. Her father was a
victirn of the spanish influenza epidemic Lnat kilred
many
Americans in L9L9-2o. She relates her knowledge of her motherts
struggler
ds a widow, to raise seven chirdren and maintain the
fanily ranching operation.
Bright provides a chitdfs perspective on growing up in the
area, particularly
during the diffilurt
economic tin6s or tne
Great Depression. she discusses riving in Marathon and Alpine.
she recarrs her motherrs recolrectioni
of rife in the Big Bend
during the Mexican Revolution,
and she laments the depreJsion-era
purchase and sraughter, by the u.s. government, of hel familyrs
few remaining cattle
Bright.acknowledges a social segregat,ion between the arears
Anglo and Hispanic communities. she describes in detail her
raml]y home and.her parentsr earrier cow-camp residence in the
Rosillos Mountains.
fe male to ear n an air cr aft
pilotr s
. B r i g h t w a s th e fi rst
certification
at sur Ross state college. she enlistedl
in tn"
early stages of l{orld War II, in the WornentsAir service project
(wAsPs), washed out, and transferred
to the wornenArmy corps. she
has been a widow since
teacher.
Lgsz. she is a retired
Er paso schoor
NOTE:
Brightts
interview
contains sensitive
comments
concerning her farniry and its lcinship with the stirlwerl
family. she suspects brands on her flrniryrs cattle were
changed to the Stillwel1
brand, and she -lleges
noy
stilrwell
took advantage of her motherrs poverty iir tne
purchase of eight sections of Henderson farnily tand.
Sh e a l so g u e sti o n s the ver acity of HaII Stillwell' s
pubrished crairns to having honesteaded the area around
today's stilrwell
store. aright says the stillwelr
store is
rocated on a portion of the Henderson farniryrs former ranch
property.
Despite her criticisms,
relations
with the StilIweII
Bright still
family.
maintains
crose
Big Bend National Park
Oral History Project
.fane H. Bright
By ,John R. Moore
July
M:
lThis
is
al Big Bend oral
,Jane Bright
4,
L994
History
project
interview
with
Mrs.
of El Paso, Texas by,John Moore [on] ,Ju1y 4, 1,994.
Mrs. Brightr
|ou're
you to begin
by telling'us
and about your
a native
family
of
the Big Bend area.
T, d ]ike
about where you were born and when
and your
recollections
of growing
up in
the Big Bend area.
B:
Wel1,
my family
fourteen
lived
sections.
guess in all
The land
Iand.
fourteen
sections,
which
my mother and father.
He was the only
M:
His name was?
B:
,fohn sanf ord
grandfather
of
sections
was twenty-eight
like
My fat.her's
the
country,
and we managed
sections,
the ranching
siscers.
his
business.
that. his
and the partner,
and then married
about
people were from Tennessee.
And when he came t.o west
he wanted to ]earn
had a partner
a good
bit
son of a merchant and he had three
Henderson.
r
school l_and or
you a rittre
to tel-I
not want to take up the sLore business
His father
part
that
we owned fourteen
But., anyway, r'd
decided that
in
and we had
[Creek]
over Texas, is checkerboarded with
railroad
spread.
on Lhe Maravillas
widow.
father
r think,
r Lhink
rexas
he
He did
was in.
murd.ered my
that,s
the
way it
worked,
but,
anyway,
became a cowboy and then
managing
or
being
ranches down in
the
Papa came to
a job
he got
foreman
of
staunch church-goer,
her
was her name.
That's
Camellia's
girls.
is also a sister
children,
on the train
B:
My mother.
M:
He and Granny
second husband.
L:-zz:-e Stillwell
Now, Llzzie
was nine.
and Mr.
She was the
Lo send Camellia
to them.
We11,
A1ice,
Stillwe11,
have any ehildren
who
one of the
at that. time,
so
And they sent her
vour mother?
They sent her on Lhe train
from visiting
Stil1well's
stole
Somebody had
Henderson,
who had several
horse
to
take
a
horse
the
ranches,
rap
said
to the penitentiary
stealinq
to W.T.
up Christian
a home near a penitentiary.
in
brothers
So he was sent
on a stretcher
Aunt Al-ice had taken
country.
Did this
He was a real
W.T. Henderson and his wife,
Henderson and Aunt Alice.
rap.
mot.her.
And I
on a stretcher.
And Camel-1ia is
Roy
Henderson,s
And my mother had tubercul-osis.
they didn't
M:
Science
Henderson
Beevill-e.
was in.
of Roy St.i11we11, Alice
they asked LLzzie
in
sister.
when my mother
when she got a divorce
older
W.T.
He was my grandmother's
was Roy Stillwell's
a divorce
lived
fat.her
My grandmother
el-dest of three
W.T.
but he was also a playboy.
daughters.
Boyce got
Texas and he
the Rosill-os.
know what business
had three
with
one of
Now, my mother and her family
don't
west
occur
in
and
skipped
for
it,
he would
for
One of
so
W.T.
take
the
two years.
the Biq Bend area?
the
B
Big
M
In
B
I
Bend area.
Marathon
or...
know exactly
don't
quite
young
when
Al-ice
went
to
penitentiary,
the
wit.h
lv. rvo ra +
i r .n. nr + ir rnvn
Alice
Aunt
took
wenL out
mother
would
M
This
B
I would
in
so it
so then
they
Antonio
to
was the
Excuse me.
B
Yes,
vaIley,
As weII.
what
B:
in
Big
is
Mrs.
Incarnate
Word.
Mr.
them
of
now on the
in
hostess
got
was a
ft
religion.
That.
the
noticed
Foundation.
Science.
was
And
was
so
before
my
WeI1...
Bright/
what. years?
approximately
1885 because
my mot.her was born
1885 and 1895.
and they
sent
her
Right.
to
Okay,
school
in
San
And she met Papa when she was home
town
Rosillo
for
some business.
He
Ranch.
ranch
And one of
And then
or
,.i.rr.u
Henderson's
was.
the
Aunt
and
atmosphere
out
Society
come to
he'd
W.T.
the
found
and
be between
Mother
was in
them was
he had a farm
Rosillos?
the
in
the
up here
in
Fort
the
Paso valley.
Of course,
now Big
Bend.
she
t-. ,' h. 'r i s t i a n
raised
EI
and
wit.h them.
live
would
Mountains.
Davis
house
Christian
I guess
of
one
a boarding
j-t was before
foreman
M
was
Science
been,
say that
1885,
up
when
he
at
t lra
anyway,
But,
I was
while
hostess
nf
to
have
on vacation.
M:
the
details.
Henderson
loveliness
the
knew the
this.
told
st.ayed
never
f
W.T.
t.he Christian
member of
t ho
was
visit
and
acquainted
i n
I
she
harmony
where.
Yes,
the
Rosillos
Bend Nationalthat,'s
right.
are
in
the
northern
part
of
Park.
Quite
a ways
by
wagon
to
the
rail-road.
M:
At
Marathon?
B:
At
Marathon.
f
And,
of
But,
anyway,
house
course,
Rosillos
their
in
roads
had to
be cattle
She was
I
think.
with
on
And
he
They had to
in
Wil-son's
was
he
her
days.
1zou know.
Jim
and
took
An arbor
five
trail-sr
about
in
down
the
on a camp fire
cook
poles
i-s four
stalks
TechuguiTTa
the
took
married
some TechuguiTTa
Lop of
it
seventeen
was an arbor.
shelter
some debris
were
Mother
Alpine.
older,
ground
the
me like
a cow camp.
to
only
seems to
and
Papa
years
twelve
the
in
there
it
mean,
st.uck
across
Laid
and
was her
That
stalks.
and
home.
Well,
Mother
with
rode
about
chil-dbirth,
birth
first.
pregnancy
ended in
get
she had to
And so,
Papa decided
stay
in
What year
B:
Stop
the
were
thing
a horse
the
best
in
and have
she had four
seven
but
they
field
while
miscarriage.
this
and
more miscarriages
for
thing
the
her
her
t.o do would
be
and
married?
I'11
have
to
They were married
again)
had
Johnny,
that
me that
and so she told
out
anything
cow camp.
M:
they
of
know
She didn't
a miscarriage
that
after
then
started
control,
down off
I guess,
Papa.
she
living
changed
next. girl
and then
the
and then
Tom Henderson
figure.
in
children:
her
1902.
Jean,
name to,Jean,
was Camellia
was born
in
(taping
Camellia
who
was
and John,
christened
was born
and she was born
1908,
and Jim
and
stopped
in
in
l-904,
1905,
was born
in
1-911, and then Dol1y,
M:
Let
me clarify.
your
raised
your
father's
M:
No relation?
B:
No relati-on,
wel-l,
And one was for
there.
living
That
M:
How long did
B:
f
M:
Quite
very
Henderson,
and his
who
wife.
good friends
in
And
and papa
in
or
havin-
nnt rr
a home?
dog run between
and the
the
f irst
arbor
obtain
and eating
was t.heir
live
the
rooms and the
was built
they
in
eventually
cooking
So that
don't
about
had two rock
sleeping.
W.T.
Henderson?
were very,
your parents
they
about
f r o m W .T .
talking
arbor...did
1,916, and .Tane, 1919.
a number of years,
buL they
l-earned a 1ot
B:
talking
name was also
A coincidence.
You were
We're
mother for
B:
M:
I9L4, and Stanley,
other
Rosil]os
them.
one was for
and it,s
still
home.
the Rosilfos?
know.
a while?
a
Quite
And
while
the
Buttrill-s'
were
their
closesL
neighbors.
M
The Buttrills'
B
Lucius
M
Who'd
B
of
But.tril-1
be the
Tom
camellia
think
then
would
and Margaret
grandparents
Leary.
And
eventual-ly
a ranch
sold
But.tril_1.
of
then
was my mother.
Papa bought
they
be...
Tom Leary
papa
after
After
they
up near
it
to
of
Alpine
and
moved
today?
camell-ia
away
from
movedthere
r
Twenty-Mi1e
twindl mil-l- and
Combs and then
papa moved down
t.o the Maravillas.
M:
where you were born?
And that's
Yes.
And,
I
think,
Do11y, Stanley,
M:
Tel1
your
Papa died
moved the
three
orphanage
and
Grandmother,
Your oldest
B
Yeah.
M
Did your
B
No.
the
the
four
die
to
within
of
San Antonio
older
of nat.ural
and it
ship
kids
your
home and
and put
us in
scattered.
the
black
an
Ltzzy,
One got a job and one just
sheep of
ran
the
sick
driving
on the t.rail
Chambers Hotel
family
causes or accidental?
was during
prescribe
Papa was sick
And we had a Mexican family
and t.he ranch
a couple
of
days.
while
But
there
one parenL -
i-nfluenza
him
Worthington
aspirin.
So
and they took
that. took
care
she was gone and he died
during
that
touched everybody in Marathon;
the town with
Spanish
And Doctor
except
Mother that
the
a herd of cattle,
and somebody carried
in Marathon.
know how to do anything
influenza
of
to
a herd of cattle,
He got
her to town.
the
t.here:
brother?
somebody came and told
of
born
he was in his. . .
Marathon
didn't.
were
months o1d and Mother
He was considered
father
epidemic.
was eighteen
l-itt.l-e klds
He was taking
into
kids
recol-lections
took two of them.
while
M
to
earliest
when I
guess.
I
family
three
was locat.ed on the Maravil-Ias.
where it
wild,
last
the
and I.
me about
Well,
He bought a ranch from George Mi1ler.
it
t.ime the
left
Spanish
the majority
M:
That would have been durinq
p,.
Yes.
M
You were born
B
It
M
1918, 19...
B
WelI,
in what year,
after
was right
I was eighteen
Yes, that
Bright?
so it
months oId,
in
Right
Is that
there
were a lot
So there
time?
must have been in 1-920
riqht?
would be correct.
Or ll9l2t.
M:
Mrs.
that
World War I.
or between 1,919 and 1920.
M:
World War I at
of
someplace.
deaths
in
from
the
Aunt
Hal-Iie
Marathon
Spanish
influenza?
B:
yes.
Yes,
Roy was even sick.
And Uncle
Unc1e Roy t.o the Buttrills'.
ranch is
Leary's
M:
Marathon,
she took
uh-huh.
Roy, Sr.
t.o health.
miles
I
t.hink
south of Marathon.
she had one child
to the Buttril-Is'
Aunt Hal1ie
Uncle Roy that
tell-s
and they
me that. they
miles
the
to
f ive
or
ranched
and store
stopped
Maravillas,
miles
in the Black
ranched right
Roy, and
nursed him back
even tefl-
didn't
our
headquarters
Where Hallie
was four
s headquarters .
Gap area and in Dove Mountain
around there.
before
ranch
when Papa moved the
f rom Roy Stil-lwell-'
was our land.
just
then,
Papa had died.
Now when we moved to the Maravillas,
family
up where Tom
now.
about fifteen
That's
They were living
took
area and we
has her trailer
That was our horse pasture.
you go through
He
park
And it
Dog Canyon and t.hen twenty-
eight
north
sections
and east.
go back to W.T. for
Let's
San Antonio
the
in
a minute.
for
orphanage
a couple
moved back to Marathon and we lived
year
and then
give
me to
o1d,
we would
and then
rented.
always
Being
at
heaven.
the
with
kids
never
that
It
healed.
with
us,
lived
a stranger
never
And only
dol-l-s, ride
would visit
older
the
in
three
stick
sad
horses,
It. was three
they
was
It. was
And the
in our family.
between the
four
would
stay
during
t.hey never
anyway,
kids,
four
There was
o1der and
us and we didn't
older
go skinny
with the Stillwell-
knit.
him,
than
on.
t.he ranch
so he was there
To this
But,
went
They would come and visit,
s j-tuation.
are gone.
And we
And that
but
ones
They resented
one of the four
t.he ranch
September.
family.
ever,
visiting
was penetrated
Alright,
I must have been
summer at
at the ranch,
t.he three
was a
The other
us.
you,
in
the t.hree younger kids.
why.
our ranch.
owned a home.
tell
the school
we would move to
town
to
Mother
And you asked
summer.
of
us again as a family.
was like
a wall
six-
people
Jim would live
with
it
or
I'11
only
summer, but
Iived
five
years
town during
Stanl"ey and Do1ly and f were so closely
us.
the
of
I can remember is-
move back
ranch,
the
during
recollection
We never
we were the
oldest
ranch
recollection
years
about six
but
the
my earliest
the earliest
Iike
at
in
we stayed in
After
day
kids
is
it.
dipping,
ride
living.
play
paper
horses,
and t.hey would visit
good meal-s of beans a day.
was
never
st.ill-
we would
know
(chuckl-es)
w€
with
we
didn't
know the difference.
carried
the
our water,
We didn't
And we could
our house.
see a trail
of
rrMamma! Yonder comes a car!rr
That
was great
that
we would
Iived
entertainment
So we did
because
would
except
Stanley
did,
I
as dirt.
rea11y bad.
mean, the
sdy, rrNo. You can't
always,
"We' 11
resourceful,
Stanley
eventually,
Civil-ian
of
M:
the
and made us
Conservation
fndian
Now Stanley
Lodge
is
feel
dropped
Corps.
at
an older
didn't
I
of
which
high
He was in
Fort
Davis.
or
younger
and we got
school
and
know we were poor
heard Came]lia
afford
Very
secure,
out
high
1932 and I was
high
never
We can't
see. 'l
and
who
the Depression reaIIy
didn't.
have that.
wai-t
I was in
until
went. to
We stilI
kids
was greaL.
in roomers and boarders.
And, eventually,
IaIso] .
came on really,
f
and
say,
Green,
so we moved to Alpine
college
and
kids.
a rooming house so Mother coul-d take
to
house
be so seldom
Charlie
from Marathon in
ready to go inLo high school,
And Do11y went
it
rub
had our
and we would
And that
going back and forth
had graduated
Dolly
school.
a
the hill
across
road
and the Stillwell
this
We all-
(chuckles)
people,
see other
up Lhe road,
l-ook out
coming down the
dust
and we fed
We had a salt
chores and we woul-d have l-ots of company.
behind
And we
and washed on
was hard work.
that
think
outhouse,
eggs,
the
was good.
that
and we had an outdoor
and gathered
chickens,
board.
We thought
it. "
It
optimistic,
was good.
school- and joined
the
brother?
very
ground
was
very
Wel},
the
work
B:
stanley
is
After
between Dol1y
the
emergency
graduated
from
I
right
think,
sixteen-
was
high
she
or
school,
summer and winter,
a job
so r got
my lunch
l-it.t]e
for
cl-erk
the
college
boys
Copeland,s
Marat.hon,
Probably.
B:
Honey,
f rom
cal-I
honey.
and
pay
I
malnutrition.
christian
science
f
was
ci-tat.ions
the
f rom the
high
a day and
three
working
one
of f ice.
And
a
us:
going
to
as a file
bedroom
And we get
of
in
schoor- now and
and Dol1y,s
rent
an
t.o three
a hundred-pound
papa
Borl-and
gave us a great
big
in
can of-
Twentw-f irre crallenJ
got
his
waffles
Dol]y
society
second
of
the
high
myself . "
cents
house,
ro
wasn't
Mot.her put. us
And f'm
Post Master,
stanley
on
wpA
fifty
was
go
,,1,11 support
Bar,
r
I
either
And it
and
and,
And r had gone to
out
rent.
the
developed
and
our
this?
lived
And
can
wel-l,
a job.
house.
who was the
do you
M:
t.hat
f l-our
of
Do1ly
a bar,
court
school-
for
rent
st.anley's
have
high
years.
Alpine.
and r.
in
from
three
a month
she doesn't
at
in
doll-ar
Do1ly,
college.
what
Ed Neville
one point
|ou
baby.
came back
us at
"
working
the
left
so I said,
as a waitress
a job
he has
for
second. to
stanley
Janer
yourseLf.
of my life,
fift.een
Stanrey,
sack
you can support
period
Mother
'Now,
said,
the
we]1,
graduated
f
college
enjoyable
He's
over,
school.
after
and
and me.
at
and
honey.
and
r were
in Alpine.
reader.
textbook
meafs
Do1ly,
the
readers
she was the
we would
and the
copeland's
Bibl-e.
take
first
turns
And Dollrz
Bar
I
and
guess,
of
the
read.er
reading
started
while
fainting
over
place
her
in
(chuckles)
would
keep
Uncle
W.T.
the
ladies
reading
her
part
Henderson,
That
Dolly
helped
B
We were able
perking
to
congregation
but
So,
obviously,
That's
At
B
Yes.
job
there
her
f l-oor.
and I
to
Uncle
Bi11y,
was a need,
Don Adam's
Mercantile
just
st.opped
about
asked
have
so he
for
us.
read
for
And Do11y st.arted
faint.ing
ten
us
and they
your
waffles.
in
on us
our
read;
to
could
t.hree
association
during
the
congregation.
the
rest
of
I
the
have done a much better
years.
with
Christian
Science
Aunt Alice?
through
And I'm
Mother.
still
a
Christian
Wel-l-, Uncle Bi1ly
So Do11y graduated
that. I was in a no-win situation.
realized
M
We1l,
I t.ry to abide by the basics.
Scientist.
from
and
they
from your
right,
t.he
on
food.
We had
we must
originat.ed
IJ
buy
was adults
job,
mine.
that
at
buy more than
why
know
out
step
a lot.
service.
don't
and
account
be
woul-d be bringing
realized
(chuckles)
up
church
to
able
would
she
just
And r would
service.
Some of
a charge
You were
having
and
established
M
M
we were
college.
Sul
Ross?
And she
in
Ysl-eta-
sent
with
her
meager,
she sent. Stanley
to
meager
she got
salary-
Durham Business
Coll-ege
a
in
San Antonio.
M
And she was teaching
B
At
Ysleta.
And
at
St.anley
Ysleta?
was
11
working
at
a
job
and
going
to
business
col-lege,
collegeput
and
me in
school,
business
for
tr.
It
M:
Downtown?
B:
Uh-huh,
on Oregon,
College
for
was in
the
off
College
six
of
for
scoop
of
ice
cream.
my boyfriend
Ault
I
year
sending
to
for
and
I
a Dr.
AuIt
Ault
it
,'
I
was
for
of
of
the
every
f
She
seem like
I2
took
1ived
t.he Business
Hilton
Hotel
a month,
and a ride
and a nicke1
everyday.
save
for
for
a
And then
I worked
eighty
for
dollars.
cal_]ed him at
the
end of
and he said,
"No,
Jane.
a raise."
And I
said,
my 1andlady,
and I,m
working
I
was a nickel
night.
abl-e to
Business
and
dollars
it
milk
a raise
tonight
Because
didn't
cents:
was my lunch
down by Blanche,
train
in
twenty-five
a glass
you
the
room and my breakfast
my keys
on the
School
Co1lege.
she had sold
a raise.
him
for
Business
her
to
go t.o school.
Dr.
a job
t.o dinner
for
give
to
fifteen
for
and
asked
paso
El
What a title!
stenographer
that
me out
Ault
Business
in
Davenport,s
f went
afford
getting
Mrs.
paso.
And that
a year
for
asked Dr.
can't
I'm
took
a roomingr house
And after
the
El
cosL
dog and a nickel
the
of
I paid
Paso.
a hot
And I
got
I
owner
My lunch
Durham
Paso?
downLown.
my salary,
downtown.
Dr.
EI
Rim Road in
El
was
(laughs)
and she was a pubric
in
it
Buildinq.
months
the
of
downtown
half
in
l-ocated
National
with
me in
Stenographers.
Where was t.hat
right.
bel-ieve
put
M:
room
r
and uncl-e Billy
Experience
a
Durham-
for
a win
in
going
f if ty
the
back
dollars
situation
'rThen I,m
morning.
t.o Alpine
a month
either,
so I
cal-led Uncle BiIIy
F^
LU
^^
Fn
gu
and I told
him I was coming back to Alpine
^n]'l
u u ] r e g. e .
LU
at the ranch and kept t.he payroll
I lived
that. summer and went Lo summer school-.
Su1 Ross and I
l-ived
room, up on the third
up in
floor
rrNow, I want you to
rr
a semester.
bill
worked
out.
T oof
dif f erent
in
Lawrence
WeI1, I graduated
Course was offered
l-ot
the
boyfriends
Mr.
girls
Casparis
took
this
was the
M:
Can you spel1
B:
C-A-S-P-A-R-I-S,
his
in
that
rtNo.
the
I want one
the
way it
for
took
And
Seven
in
sewing
seamstress now.
and t.hen my life
The Civilian
You
way.
office
I'rR an expert
tuition
co11ege.
and I
got a privat.e pilot's
Ground School
pass the test,
Casparis-
for
and that's
office
from college
the college,
started
Pilot's
Training
in Sul Ross at t.hat. time and I was the only
at Sul- Ross that
of
do it
a job
Hal-l
the
and a pilot.
as a secretary
girl
in
there
t.he corner
a semester
man sent. me through
Incidently,
in dormitory.
in
He told
checks . "
got
I
dear
a month working
dollars
there
And that.
-ioh t.here
J"*
a
time and aII.
And so
t19l 39.
three years summer and winter.
"Oh, but we don't
three
That was in
same room,
send me one biII
and room and board."
have to make out
the
for
That was my home vacation
Unc1e Billy
put me in Lawrence HaIl
And then in the fal-1 Uncl-e Bi1ly
at
for
is
but
none of
the highlight
flight
name?
I think.
of
Do you recall?
13
help
them took
instructor.
That'11
to
license
do.
there.
their
stupid
flying.
my college
A
stay-
And
Mr.
M:
That' s cl-ose enough.
B:
John Casparis.
He didn't
women and he resented
my being
he could think
of to discourage
rrJane, you'11
never
He did
me.
Every flight
make a pilot.
And my response was always,
about
it .
I
Just
I
well,
thing-
soloed
he thought
because
before
would
it
scare
morning
flight,
which meant I was picked
By the
got
I
time
And my flight
checked it
would take my f light.
May I interrupt?
out,
with
through
boys
would
job of take-off
work.
the plane,
I'ITI thinking
nine
me and I
didn't
drop
woul-d be t.he same
the
so t.hat
serviced
as well
I' l-l- l-et you know
and then
any of
a perfecL
But f sol-oed and f did
we made was,
'rMr. Casparis,
nexL l-esson it
And the
for
that
everything
You might
one more lesson
decide. "
was any place
field
there.
out.rr
what
M:
the
think
soloed-
drop
out.
and landing,
was always
t.he early
daylight,
up before
and then I took my flight.
that
it
and I
was daylight.
Wel-l. . .
Was this
during
years of World War
the early
II?
Yes.
We1l,
M:
So it
woul-d have been in
B:
It
M:
Early
B:
Uh-huh.
was
was in
I
believe.
the
class
lA9l4t,
for
1,939 or
World
War If.
[19]40...
la9) 41,.
And
semesters
Casparis
when
it
preparation
B:
I
when
tal-ked
don't
f
to
even
had
deci-ded,
me he
want
been
"Okay,
said,
you
out
going
I
on
will
rrNow, 'Jane.
here.
If
."
for
about
And
There
you've
three
when
are
got
Mr.
times
a
cold
women's equilibrium
or the flu
off
or anything
your
during
is
period
equilibrium.
like
that
don't
come out
students
wouldn't.
us.
just.
there
Iet
WeIl,
to
here
us even touch
Let me change sides
B
Okav.
because
if
a cold
If
of
it's
shaky
(chuckl-es) one of
We would go
beer and t.hen we would
Mr.
a plane
anyway, one- you're
M
Wel1,
and drink
aggravate
got
come out here.
and I would go out there.
over to the Tolt.ec beer-ioint
out
don't
'rOkay, Mr. Casparis.
"
"
the mal-e pilot
go
And 1f you've
anyway.
Casparis
he
because
he coul-d smel-I beer on
about to change?
the t.ape.
of
End of
Tape
Side
Beginning
of
One
A
Tape One
Side B
M
We'll- continue
B
One of
having
the
now.
mornings
an unusually
and we wenL through
checking
it
had about
strong
our
two
hours
of
wind.
routine
of
solo
and landings
he said,
Casparis
spring
out. and everything
mostly take-offs
one morning
when Mr.
picked
And we went out there
gassing
and he said,
time
at
me up we were
t.his
and climbing
the
plane
and
'rNow, Jane. . .
"
time
turns.
and
it
I
was
Wel1, this
".Tane, f want you to go up and I want you
15
to do your climbing
spin
to
the
left
and 1evel
and make a landing.
field,
off
off
my 7-20 spiral
let-down
throttle
other
And
it
wasn' t
were helpless,
instruments
were absolutely
the stick
I used the pedals
and forth
closer
I
took my feet
hands
off
the pedal,
off
of
and put
my hands
yours. "
And the
plane
wj-res.
t.hat
was
a
out there
and Mr.
Casparis.
trouble
with
one
^-
my fap
lifted
its
sit.uation.
and the next
and
t -l - r a n h n n o
turn.
The
The pedals
and
And aft.er
stick
back
was getting
I
And so I
and I took my
throttle
said,
full-
student
call_
I'm
"God,
the
mechanic,
was
was st.anding out there
Casparis
the
the
Now,
a landing.
saw that.
I
was in
and put his head down on his
to
with
nose up and cleared
Kasner,
And when Mr.
he ran to the office
hand
in
t.he
And I came around and did
touchy
standing
pushed
I
my
the wing
one wi-ng Iow.
of the rudders,
and
forward,
telephone
coul-dn' L
worked and that
off
stick,
the
the wind took
and used the
to the ground with
and closer
did
idling.
is
Nothing worked.
useless.
wou1d
I
But
I mean, useless.
nothing
over the
turns
plane
the
I
as much as I could
saw that
right
And you do that
words,
turning.
and come
and I came in to do
spins
Wel-l, when I got the bank of the plane
down.
and do a
1,000,
point.
over the field.
In
back.
at
and do
off,
at 2,000,
let-down
that
and I did my one-turn
turns
and level
Well , lney, climbing
"
enough at
have been an assignment
climbing
and level
and do a 7-20 power-off
over the field
the
to 3,000 feet
spin to the right
a one-turn
one-turn
turns
fire
department
desk
and
an
ambul-ance.
And t.hen he heard me land.
motor off
the airpl-ane
he was there
he grabbed me and said,
(chuckles)
M
As a pilot,
could
turn
it
and
was a good recovery.rl
"Henderson, that
have you flown
I
at the door opening
was the highlight
So that
Before
of my college
career.
over the Big Bend area a lot
since
1,94r?
B
No.
It
became too expensive and I pursued...my
assignment
was in
was there.
plane
for
extent
Marathon in
f flew with
my flying.
him a litt1e
washed out of that
WeII,
changed my thinking
Of course,
t h e W A S P sw e r e . .
B
Women's Air
Force Service
M
You used to
feruy
F,.
They towed targets,
You aim,
the
was the
WASPs.
And I
That sort
and secondary.
of
and...
Pilots.
too.
motto was rtl aim to please.
Their
And that
was in
But W.T. Henderson was the nearest
And while
a father.
between us
And that
a
Avenger
Fie1d
in
Texas.
Sweetwater,
of
and t.hen I ferried
join
did
Hardis
alrcraft?
please."
too,
f
about flying
M
bit
[New Mexico] .
primary
after
teaching
1,945 and 1946 and Bill
him once from Hobbs,
of
first
I
always
there
felt.
like
was not
if
r
that
a lot
ever
I've
of
ever
known
communication
needed him he was
there.
M:
Bend National
B:
in the Rosillos,
His ranch being
No, he sold
did Mr. Henderson sell- to Big
Park?
that
ranch wdy, way before...I
t1
guess,
when Papa
moved maybe he sold
it
then.
I
don't
know.
Let's
talk
about
Roy Sti1lwell.
M
Hallie
Stillwell'
B
HaIlie
Stillwell's
Hal-Iie
Stillwell
the
two
wife.
M
E_S-P-Y?
B
T T l - , _ l - , r , 1€\ r n *
1957.
And the
And that's
other
Fort
r
That's
v!
Davis.
u
uqv
Lp.
BelI,
And
Uncle Bi1ly
is
Lrr!o
Aunt BeIl
and Aunt BeII
when I was about
miles
nine
ullvI9
help
or ten.
you?"
after
long
(demonstrates
passed on.
going
And even thouqh
to
the
our
dimensions)
And
ever,
"Came11ia, is there
and j-t's
anything
a 4L caff."
got
was
remember
the range and saying,
is a piece of iron
ranch
ranch
Now, ffiy mother used t.o tel-I
is someLhing that
second
D
that.
Camel-Iia, I saw another Cross L cow nursing
iron
DLLLI
when Aunt. Alice
married
about Papa coming in from riding
a running
third
She was Aunt. Alice's
from Uncle Roy's ranch I can never,
can do to
B . il ' l w ' s
Unr:le
rp
Black.
Uncle Roy coming over and saying,
f
is
between
W.T. Henderson's
BuL, you know, we must have stopped
five
This
Henderson
W.T.
is
this
nrlu
Science practitioner
Christian
lady
photograph)
to
an Espv.
!!vrrr
/
(points
husband.
in
ladies.
She's
wife.
s husband?
us kids
"WeIl,
Now,
about this
a curve
on one
can rope a calf
on the
end, so. . .
M
About
B
Right.
twel-ve or eighteen
So anyone's that's
rangfe, bui1d a fire,
he wants to make.
inches
real
long?
gifted
and brand that
That's
sucker with
why Papa would say,
1B
any brand that
rrI saw a Cross
L cow nursing
a 4L calf.
M
And Cross L was your
B
Was my daddy's
know, that.'s
Mettie
father's
brand.
I went to the court
had Lhe Cross L.
house and l-ooked this
That's
when Papa started
stay
in
sold
some cattle
country
t.hat time
ranching
very
to
didn't
long,
Roy's
don't
a running
whiskey
but
The Big
Bend area
crossing
area/
B
Anan
v}/vrl
M
How would
/
nhah
vt/urr
you
rancher
bachelor.
but
a 4 , and a
know
you know.
I
is what I found in the court
now any cowboy could
said
He carrj-ed
one.
he never
carried
a
a running
makes you wonder.
and the
Maravi11as
was a very wild
characterize
and others-
Well-, you see,
our
brand,
Now, I don't
Papa never carried
Camellia
the
area,
Creek,
the
Sti11wel-l
few people...
.
Sti1lwell-s,
B
iron.
didn't
she must have
Papa started,
you know, I thi-nk,
you know, it
But,
iron.
M
flask,
But,
1897
about the
brand was a sIash,
4L.
in
Mettie
so apparently
know, but, anyway, this
house in Alpine.
carry
himself.
But the same year he registered
rrYou
I found out that
Papa and Papa registered
Uncle
brand.
I thought,
keep...that's
for
how Iong he'd been using 4L before
just
up.
real- strange. "
We1I, Mettie
time
slash.
became Roy's
one of Uncl-e Roy's sister-in-laws,
Stillwel1,
during
brand?
And 4L eventually
strange.
that
"
I didn't
to
the
And during
those
people-
your
very independent., very
have an opportunity
north
our
was
Charlie
growing
19
family,
the
strong-wiIled?
to know Papa, but
He was
a
he was l-ike
a
Green.
up years
father
He didn't
to us.
Uncle
Tom Green,
then
passed
he
his
have any children
brother,
on.
Iived
or any relatives.
with
him for
(point.s
fncidently,
to
shelf)
glasses up here were Uncle Tom Green's glasses.
spend a lot
spending
about
men in
taking
he
that
the
cattl-e
only
stayed
apparently...
us kids
Green.
that
market.
Mr.
wouLd take
true
of
to
t.he
Papa
that
ranchers
my mother,
to
surname and he expected
t.hen, was it
Roy Stil1wel1
your
was taking
B:
It
M:
Based on the registrat
B:
Of the
father
game.
the
not
And he
he
their
could
wj-ves, so
Papa always called
them to do the
hired
their
same
hands in
Spanish.
and mother's
advantage of
woul-d
that
And he always t.alked to his Hispanic
Apparently,
turns
would be on a train
Spani-sh and he wanted them t.o speak to him in
M:
But I used to
or get. in a gambling
one
these
Papa was one of
when they
to
and
And f would ask him
I know Camellia said that
men by their
him.
that
prostitutes
was
of
And he said
country
of
with
remember that
with
three
Uncle Charlie
Papa.
load
a
associate
said
time...all
time with
questions
only
of
awhile
belief
cattle.
t.hat
..
would appear that. way.
taxes
brands.
on our
j-on of . . .
Now, eventually,
ranch.
During
Camellia
RoosevelL's
pay the
couldn't
first
term when the
Depression
was so bad he would send people out to the ranches
like
which
was dry.
get
money for
ours,
we couldn't
sick
and dying.
We were having
feed and the
a drought
cattl-e
t.hen and
were poor
So these government men woul-d go out
20
and
to the
and shoot them and burn them and
ranch and round up the cattle
give
corpse,
you know, on your
withouc
stock
lost
of
house,
it
were
sections
bought
But in looking
wasn't
the rest. for
only
for
taken
And so, eventually,
taxes.
taxes
and then
Bought that
B:
From my mother.
but
a couple
a year
dol-Iars
I've
mot.her?
Now, that
heard Aunt
doesn't
Hal-lie
homesteaded all
know who they
bought
the
add up t.o very much money,
say in
husband and I
of
one of
this
her
Dove Mountain
Ranch from,
one, two, three,
seven,
Came1lia.
forty
eight
aces times eight
got. control
school
this
sections
And $265 for
is my mother's
understand
that
it.
to come about
in
sections
to
uncfe that.'s
an uncle
would do that
she got us kids
in
eioht
five,
six,
hundred
Plus,
so it
a niece.
and
they've
were
Now,
seems sort
I don't
this
was going
1939- and I think
he bought
sections?
27
to
don't
they
in between that
doing this,
Now, when Mother realized
these
Now, six
"My
but
ten years would be $2,560.
1940- she got us to deed our part
In addition
four,
is a good piece of 1and.
of the checkerboard
lands.
strange
from
speeches,
Wel-l-, I
l-and."
bought (counting on fingers)
it
in
Roy and Hall-ie
two hundred and sixty-five
from your
M:
of
we
over the records
Apparently,
it.
ten years.
for
M:
any grass on it.
wasn't
a
was
income /' no one wanLed t.o lease
the ranch from taxes.
the court
So we had a ranch that
hands.
and no way of
because there
than having
a head, which was better
us seven dollars
that
of
the
ranch t.o her.
B:
These are the sections.
M.
Okay, incl-uding
B:
Yeah.
or
So the kids
you know, I wish
the Depression,
The times,
had to
took
do desperate
advantage
perhaps.
I
we signed
after
I had been older
t.he deed.
and more aware
t.he situation.
of
B:
rrYea"
come out and say anything,
couldn't
f mean, w€ had no right
"Nay."
So, I just,
M:
those.
of
right
things,
guess,
would
agree.
I
mot.ivate someone to do that
they knew Camellia
happened.
can't.
looking
even your
was
from the time
as
far
was going
that
Did
these
eight
didn't.
were
Combs...f
So your
sure
the
to
nf
mother's
heresay
this
they
back
loto
T'm cnlite
No, it
they,
records
woul-d
what
to t.heir own refatives,
especially
she was born until
you know, ,John, f can't
But,
know raises
Yes-
than
understand
say that
happened because I was too young and too
But. in
and people
survj-ve
to
who were more desperate
others
people
World War If,
Would you agree?
certainly
since
I
before
this
unaware to
and knowing
n,racl-icns about motivations
this
is what
know.
you do
what
and, maybe,
thinking.
a lot
as
of
f'm
that
was her
concerned.
influence
I
didn't
because
know
any
ir
of
on.
sections
include
Those eighty
surrounded
by
don'L know if
mother ret.ained
the
Double
acres were off
Wells.
. .
to themselves and
Pope and Green and
those
people.
Combshad any land there.
ownership
of
the Double Wells?
B:
of
the Double wel-ls.
daughters
and
a
son,
construction
M:
Sold that
R.
Uh-huh.
M:
So today
B:
No property
eighty
your
acres with
family
First
that
And this
road
t,hen f ive
as we could,
house stood.
adobe wall-s,
the wells?
r've
r started
acres,
down t.he Maravillas,
taken my trailer
out with
"No. "
and then
we wal-ked over
and then two rooms built
one was a kitchen
'No,
please
Lhen ren
,fane, [o. "
we rode a jeep
and up the Maravillas
our ranch house consisted
was a big
'rDatie,
But. Son and I,
across the ffat,
gone
and I've
one section,
and then one acre.
to
where our
of a front
as
ranch
porch,
two
on the back of the adobe
and one was a bedroom and then behind
adobe room.
M:
What type
of
roof?
B:
I believe
it
was corrugated
M:
Flat
B:
No, peaked.
M:
Is
B:
No.
And we carled
that
the sart
House.
tin.
or peaked?
that
house still
Love owns that
outside
now.
three
black-topping
numerous times and r would say,
The answer was always,
that
were
down to
owns no property?
down there.
sell- me. . . rr
wall-s;
they
got
family
company wanted to lease water or buy and we sol_d.
down to Datie's
far
well,
the
of road from Marathon to persimmon Gap.
stretch
acres,
And after
of
st.anding?
property
now.
Persimmon Gap towards
And he had all
Ben Love that
Marathon
of the structures
z5
ranches right
owns that
property
taken down, except
for
Lhe pen.
What remains of
Are they
B:
No, wooden pens.
feet
M:
Is
B:
Yes,
which is
dry,
supplied
I
but
it's
believe
M:
But
that's
ol-der...did
only
thing.
across.
And a trough
cement tank eight-
And that's
still
standing.
by a windmill?
know if
don't
the
windmill's
working.
I
don't
in operation.
summers you
The
the
and then we had a big
deep and fifteen-feet
that
standing.
rock pens?
M:
there,
the pens are stil_l
spent
your
and
there
you ever go down in
visits
to what is
as
you
grew
now Big Bend Park
much?
B:
Oh, yes.
M:
Tel1 me about. some of your
early
recollections
the Chisos
of
Basin or Castolon or Boquillas.
B:
We would throw
or
three
a couple
bed roll-s
go down in
would
in
Hot Springs
(Ieaves
the baths.
beaut.iful?
interview
the
pot
and t.wo
off
and we
take
many summers we would
go
and Mother would take the baths
area t.o retrieve
memorabilj-a)
We would go down there
four
to wear white
older
kids.
starched
Aren't.
clothes
and
they
down at
ranch.
M:
So you
B:
Well,
that
and we would
(points)
There are the
They got
and a coffee
And then
These are my canisters.
take
skillets
t.he car
there.
down to Langford's
down t.here.
of
camped a 1ot
we didn't
was like
at
Hot
Springs?
We rented
camp there.
camping.
24
one of
those
rooms and
M:
Right.
B:
(points
take
photograph)
to
the
That's
my mother.
She obviously
B
I think
she went down there
This
Papa and Mother on horseback.
M
the
believed
and post
store
office
B
Langford
M
What do you recall
B
He was entertaining.
wife
think
youngest
of
M
An albino
B
Uh-huh.
there
to get
away from the house.
(points
t.o photograph)
was Maggie Smith running
still
there?
gentleman
and his
l,angford?
And the
the
two young boys,
youngest
one.
was an albino
Leroy
and-
Leroy
was next
child
after
oh,
to
Leroy.
I
the
And
toget.her.
child?
very
white
out of the sun.
This
is
Prince
Iaughing.
And that's
crying
another picture
Do you recal}
at
were curative?
or was l,angford
He was very,
Here's
springs
He was an educated
I'm on old
there
just
about Mr.
and then there
we would play
M
the hot
was there.
was }ovely.
can't
stay
that
time you went to Hot Springs,
At the
would
baths.
M
is
And my mother
time
B
Oh, yeah.
M
Were they
l5
Yes, mostly
It
Papa (points
eyes and had to
to photograph)
and the horse is neighing
the only picture
of
and
and Papa's
I have of me with
Papa.
Papa and Mother.
at Hot Springs.
the
and had pink
.were there
a number of people
t.hat vou visited?
was always ful}.
mostly
loca]
people
1ocal...Alpine
or travelers?
and Marathon people.
25
Wel-l-, mostly
Alpine.
M:
come down and spend days?
would
And they
The twenty-one
days.
M:
Twenty-one days.
B:
That was the course.
the tub,
fiII
you
would
(chuckles)
that
roII
up
And aII
this
They liked
water.
I don't
system.
and you'd
was a cement tub,
it
and you would stay
water
then
And you would go in t.here and you would
in
the water
in
a wool
X number of minut.es and
and sweat.
army blanket
you were supposed to
time
I guess it
t.hat .
know what it
the tub with
fill
cl-eaned out
(laughter)
did.
drinking
their
It. made them
sweac, anyway.
M:
Did people
B:
Oh, yes.
food
social-ize
We would have fish
and sit
always
a 1ot there
out
out
the
of
under
at Hot Springs?
frys
arbor
the
way playing
and,
yes,
we would
were
The kids
and taIk.
and fishing
share
and swimming.
rt.
was fun.
M:
Anrr
B:
Oh, yes...Chata
ror.nl
I cr.f
go down there
summer.
i nnq
nf
Rorrrr i
and eat
Yes, she did.
One of her gir1s..
children
and raised
prepare
the food for
ts-.*^
Lyljs
Tr ce :r lrs a
q?
v
^.tr
v!
t.hem.
Not
fOOd?
zo
oft.en,
maybe once
to see Mother.
f think
A n d one
us.
'
We would go in the car just
And Chata was always glad
tr.
vrrraL
/
sometimes.
She ran a sma1I restaurant?
r.1l--^F
aq
and Juan Saba.
M:
M:
'l 'l
of
she adopted
her
dauqhters
a lot
of
would
food.
B:
Mexican
M:
What,
B:
Enchiladas
and beans
M:
They
were
exceptionally
B
ohvLt
ves-
t
r
"-
The real
.
have
any
kind
was Juan
wel-l,
that..
food?
play
we coul-dn't
the
dance
there.
player
piano
entertainment.
This
B
Uh-huh.
M
S-A-L-A-D-A?
B
'Juan Sada.
M
S-A-D-A,
B
Sada.
rrDrtis
lpronounced]
house
down there
and then
and Chata
you
Salada
and Chata
Sada,
said?
S-A-D-A.
okay.
the Daniels'
would
like
Sometimes we would
flavor.
of
and things
good
M
Juan
remember?
and tacos
died,
And after.Juan
or
do you
specifically,
as
trth.rr
And Camel Barker
Lhe .Iohnsons'
and the Greens'
lived
were
near
at Dugout,
come down and we would visit.
had a
there.
And
so the Greens'
Sometimes we would have
a dance at Dugout.
Do you reca1I
M:
Dugout..
B:
Yes, there
lived
there
there
were structures
And Pap and Mollj-e Green
was a school house there.
and they had lots
Ruby and Willie
and Lilly
there?
of children:
and Aaron and
,Jack and Wayne and
(chuckles)
I
don't
know how many others.
M:
Most of the people,
excepL the Sadas' that
you ment.ioned, are
your
Ang1o.
What was your
relation,
people's
relations
the Mexican-American
with
Mexi-cans from south of
the river?
2'7
ot
family,
or
other
community or t.he
B:
We11, we were certainl-y
far
as
house
M:
in
to
them
taking
while
town
racial
communication
with
talking
sel-dom went
Woul-d
there,
that
be
really
fair
just
segregation...you
often
or most people didn't?
Well,
Mother
recall,
and Chata were very,
one of
a real
bad hard
time
with
stayed at our house for
M:
In Marathon or Alpine?
B:
In
Marathon.
that
So that
help
her
about
their
they
in
relation
to
the
the Mexican communities
very
good friends.
pregnancy
As I
and she was having
and,
I
think,
she
a while.
Now, that's
Mother did
them
was pregnant
t.he daughters
like
have much connectj-on.
didn't
go to
our
was no inter*
many tel-1 me that
assessment
didn't
or
as
time.
asking
and
at
something
There
or Castolon,
so they
a
from
help
stay
them
leLting
on aL that
ot.hers
of BoquiIlas
recoflections
ot
segregated.
going
who needed
anyone
recuperated
certainly
we were
But
help
to
a doctor
they
that.
In
willing
was always
My mother
my mother.
Chata accepted
segregated.
a vague recol-Iection,
but
I
know
one of her daughters.
may have been a litt.le
bit
atypical,
not
a normal
situation?
B
Uh-huh.
M
Did you ever
go up into
t.he focal- point
the
Chisos Basin
of Bio Bend Park?
No.
There
was no access
there
until
area,
now, what is
B
Whitie
T.
Burnam,
I
think,
owned that.
owned wade canyon and the country
he bought
sister
vF,
it
from
Bob Serner,
and r went down there
And Uncle
Charlie
around wade Canyon.
r think
Uncl-e Charlie
and spent
Green.
christmas
And mrz
holidays
one
T
M
At the Greens'?
B
At. the Greens -
M
At. Dugout?
B
No, no.
Charlie
No, this
Green,
is
a different
who lived
family
of Greens'
up the Maravil_las.
owned Wade Canyon Ranch.
Thi_s was
For a while
And we went down there
and spent
he
the
Christmas vacation.
M
You were talking
brands.
B
earl-ier
One person told
me that
cattle
it
and running
Mexicans
and leave
their
property
because they were suspected of
I was not aware of that,
his
t.hat. country
army drove a1l- the cattle
rest
drive
of
the
their
think,
cattle
think
father
back.
they
Camellia
have
been
Revolution?
Yes.
29
and
ranchers
co
were caught
on
went on.
around t.he Maravillas
and
And Papa and the
over
was way before
had only
But,
rustling.
rustling
and went back
Now, this
she had us yet.
would
if
back across.
a posse
men formed
because I think
I don't
Your
them laying
buL I do know that
raided
irons
was commonfor
shoot
And Pancho Villa
M
about
the four
t.here to
my time,
older
I
kids.
anyway...
there
durinq
the
Mexican
M
And the Glen Springs
B
Yes.
M
...perhaps
q^ FL
B
F1^^
urre
Raid was in
the most famous of the raids
f.i
u ilTle
pqrlrs
and that
know.
I don't
and he said,
"Camellia,
up all
long.
don't
night
go to
So one night
he didn't
If
sleep at
"It's
But, anyway, he gave her this
gun
don't
night.
clop,
up with
c1op, clop,
was pretty
Penrod'r- or
"Don't
sleep
clop of horse's
that. t.hree times.
Let me change tapes,
can'L
Tape
Side
B
And by that
think
of
Henderson!
One
It's
t.he name of
And so Camellia
out when you did."
Mrs. Bright.
End of
And
so then he heard her pul1 the
shoot Mrs. Henderson!"
you caIled
hooves on
I'Who's there?"
rrDon't shoot Mrs.
I
but
day do it,
the gun across her 1ap
She said,
close,
whatever,
a good thing
all
You sit
you hear anything...shoot."
If
She said
answer.
I think
go to sleep at night.
you have to
hammer back and he said,
rancher-
was
where the house was.
time the rider
Mr.
it
Mother was sitting
and she heard this
the hill
of Boquillas
.
But Papa tol-d Camel-Iia...he gave her a 30-30.
aWinchesLer,
M:
1915. . .
the
said,
Beginning
of
Tape
Side
M:
Mrs.
the
neighbor
time
\/nrrr
of
mnl-
relating
riding
You talked
t.hat time
that
women of
the
about
your
and apparently
dark
that
il-lustrates
strong-wi11ed,
about other
mother
and
during
the
to
me that
person
independent
women in the Big Bend area in
you knew or that. you had been tol-d about..
era
unique?
=nn1g3ches
*_Y_v,
Yes, I believe
Did
they
in
Ordef
life
tO
t.hey were, buL I think
most outstanding
women that
mot.her is.
their
the
very
r
herself.
thinks
in
experience
Revolution,
was a
hor
A
this
up
Mexican
the
rli €€aranf
B:
in
Bright,
finro
have to
tO
undertake
some
SUfviVe?
my mother was one of the
f've...of
And it.'s
Were
course,
so rewarding
every
child
to me and it's
such a compl-ement to me when I go in t.he Marathon-Alpine
area
and I meet people
that
They
remind me or
me how much I
always
that
teI1
I
haven't
such a complement to
f
They'11
course,
going
sdy,
"Oh, you are exactly
have the
she didn't
j-t' s nice
Did she reside
character
[19]57,
ranch
back
to
property
in Alnine?
the
things
t.hat
place.
mother.r'
she musL have had.
she was seventy-two.
so she's been dead quite
to tell-
time.
And that's
one of
l-ike your
that
pass away until
f or people
your
about
a long
Camellia.
me and that's
forward
passed away in
She sold
favor
look
coul-d just
to
seen in
a while.
If
I
Of
She
But
me t.hat .
in
1-940 and she died
in
1957.
B:
No, she lived
in
california
with
my oldest
my husband and I went out to California
California
and I had the two Iittle
my husband worked
bought
while
his
I
in
a jewelry
own and I taught
taught
Cul-ver City
school
and visit
my older
get away from the kids,
in
1,957.
there
It
Mother
said
stay with
my other
and died.
anyway,
she
died
husband
died
two
Tel-l
time
me about
graduated
did
B:
for
WAC. After
discharged
with
us
go to
My husband got
family,
threes
to
sick
And his
family,
family
started
his
and fours
t.o come back
tickets
two
or
and a half
at
to
a tj-me and
El
paso and
boys she said
and reservations
t.hree
and she
or something but,
days.
weeks later.
And
then
my
That. was a very
f survived.
husband,
you mentioned
how you met.
Ross with
a teaching
certificate.
he
where
husband?
marry him until
in
tived
he
So we packed her bags and she went to
I washed out of
was enlisted
and then
and take my two littl_e
within
your
you meet your
We11, I didn't
I
in that
and
the weekend just
for
I guess she had a stroke
me, but
from sur
awhile
case of cancer.
cit.y and had the plane
got sick
trying
sister
We went to
on weekends she would
she was going
that
[19] 55.
And Mother
sister
our house by the
the dust cleared.
culver
M:
was a terminal
at
for
I guess, and us.
were twel-ve siblings
coming in
until-
school-.
And then
pre-schoolers,
boysr
store
and then
in
sister.
after
the war.
the WASPs I went into
the Womens'Army Corps.
from the army during
32
f was also
a
the WAC and
And after
the emergency of world
I
was
war rr
I
went
to
from Marathon
I
I went
my husband
met
Carolj-na
And his
name?
B:
Charlie
Bright,
Luke Bright
I
B:
Oh,
don't
of
not
going
date.
People
He was
say,
sLore
And
from
North
Fabens.
in
rrAre you related
rrf wish.
"
say,
there.
to
(chuckles)
Brioht.
pioneer
richest
the
the
give
to
Bright.
you
. ."
thanks
to
me in
this
time,
t.hat
I'Here
think,
pioneer
t.hank you,
Presidio
in
stop
f
an old
a ticket
rrokay,
a warning
families
patrolmen
highway
a member of
(chuckles)
way with
school
a jewelry
And I
I'I know you're
He has a daughter
So you're
a blind
'rNow, Mrs.
sdy,
down. "
my merry
Marfa?"
And whenever
they
and I'm
slow
in
one
County.
comes. rr
on
there
And then
career.
and taught
B-R-f -G-H-T.
know Luke
he's
area
Tornillo
to
and he had established
M:
M:
my teaching
and started
Marathon
family
it
here
please
but
And I go on
sir.I'
Luke Bright's
children.
named .Tanie.
sometj-mes confused
as.
So Mr.
Briqht
died
in
L 9 5 7?
B:
Uh-huh.
But Mr. Bright
did
a very wicked thing.
marrj-ed me when he was already
married
in the insane asylum in San Antonio.
f was pregnant
with
When I found that
sons by myself
and,
care of the situation
suit. for
divorce.rr
and he had put his
So when I found that
my youngest son...seven
out
I knew that
I
guess,
I was going
nature
or
wife
out
months pregnant.
to raise
something
because one day I told
And three
Mr. Bright.
him,
just
my two
took
I'I'm filing
months l-ater he was gone, so it
worked out.
me j-n a very
He left
sad si-tuation
Like,
he gave me a $1,500 insurance
policy
worth
of
of
debts,
never did
but
returned
to
El
Paso
when their
shipping
us
orphanage,
off
not
ffie, two years
to
for
rike
eventuarly.
husbands die.
san
adversary
and I
ol-d.
time
make drastic
sticking
us
as a holding
in
the
tank,
and
want to do that. to my kids,
r was going
to
my head was on straight
And by the
and
just
but
I didn,t
widows
And r remember my mother
Antonio
adoption,
made up my mind that
l-eave.
that
to El Paso?
decisions
felt
overcame all
and about $30,000
remarry.
And you returned
r
f
financially.
stay
right.
and r could
r had my equiribrium
t.here until
think
r
straight.
my boys didn, t
Now, we had a house in Fabens that
so I
want to
was clear.
r mean,
r had a home to go, but they did not want to leave california,
so r sLayed there
f went through
those
during
I said,
the people
family,
stand
trailer
t.rying
teenage
thaL's
that
down there
times
with
years.
And then
those kids,
when .Tohn turned
I' m going back to EI paso.,,
in my acquaintance
by each other
expressed in
very
was eighteen.
r want. to say about. t.he stilrwelrs.
a more closely
forg'otten,
the
"Adios.
But one thing
of
the youngest
some v€rlr
two boys,
eighteen
until
united
regardless
all
forgiven,
famiry.
r do not, know a more loving
family,
of
34
than
what they
they
are.
do.
That.,s all
and you see nothing
And it,s
and to be in
of al-l-
that
a joy
for
me to
at.mosphere.
They
but
love
take my
M:
B:
Describing
your
mother,
seems like
it
Yes, there
in
is,
own life
there,s
except
come out pretty...
r
t.hink
machine that
just
I
Mother woul-dn't
M:
you think
loaded
for
for
what r have and
r
something
and cook them in
use
I
that
bread
,,What
think,
like
this
when she
a Dutch oven on a camp
this.
the
Was it
hardships?
gamily
the Sti11wel1
I don't
of contribution
to my character
genes.
my father
and r
think
person.
lett.ing
my mother
And her
difference
whose father
in myself
attribute
that
f he
to
of your mother and that
that..
I think
and life,
had stamina
att.itude
only
and that
r-he time.
t.hat had a lot
but I think
must, have been a very,
in
us know, whether that,s
Now, the
the Big Bend is
the environment.
you
do
in general?
know whether it's
I think
and yourse]f,
Of course,
Can
your own character
developing
weIl,
the Sti1]we11s,,
t.he Big Bend had...
conditions,
poor.
grateful
up and connected
have given
l,ve
but what I have is
And whenever
your mother,
the purpose of
B:
and everything
And
"
In describing
of
debts
have a lot,
very
often.
had to make biscuit.s
fire.
our
I don't
Mother
of your
of para]lels.
a lot
for
And f am very,
of
have and that
my mother never owned her own home.
my managj-ng and paying
mine c]ear.
you just
that
indication
enough for
raising
that
t.he
very good man
more than
us three
good orbad,
it,s
that
kids
one
and not
we were dirt
r know t.hat. there
was a
and my cl-assmates was Frances Morelock,
was the president
35
of sut Ross, tried
rear hard to
develop
a friendship
I never
knew why then.
with
know, you know, that
me and Mother dj_scouraged it.
But,
outside
we weren't
of that
she never
And
let
us
the same and I admire her for
tsl^^F
LttdL.
M
Mrs.
Bright,
about
No,
can't
thorough
M
you
that
I
Thank
is
you
there
care
think
hour
very
anything
say
to
of
a
before
thing.
I
that
I
haven't
we wrap
up
think
iL's
this
asked
you
interview?
been
a pretty
(chuckles)
and a half.
much.
else
And
I'll
turn
point.
Okav.
End of
Interview
off
the
tape
at
this