lLegi~latibe ~ouncH. - parliament of new south wales

Adjournment.
[25 OcT., 1900.] Religious Teaching in Schools. 4369
Mr. H. CHAPMAN : An application
was made to the Metropolitan Water and
Sewerage Board, and as a member of the
board, I have seen all the papers connected with the. matter. There are not
more than 3 acres in the park, I suppose,·
and it seems extraordinary that plans
should have been prepared without ihe
knowledge of the Minister for Defence for
the erection of a building there which
would cost £20,000. I saw a paper signed
by Major King which states that the cost
of the building will not be less than that
amount, and I think the Minister should
give us a pledge that the work will not be
proceeded with until it has been referred
to the Public vVorks Committee.
Mr. SEE: I know nothing about the
matter. In n.ny case it will shortly be a
federal matter !
Mr. H. CHAPMAN: We have not
yet gone into the federation, ar:d we are
not going to part with a portion of this
park to the Commonwealth Government
if I know it. The military authorities
have had plans prepared, apparently independently of the Government. This park
was reclaimed years ago by the city council, although t.he land belongs to the Government. When the late Mr. Farnell
was S~cretary for Lands plans were laid
out for the sale of the. park, but the Parliament decided that it should not be sold.
Notice taken that there was not a
quorum present,
Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House at
3·5 a.m. (Thursday).
TEMPORARY-CHAIRMAN OF
COMMITTEES.
Resolved (on motion by Ron. F. B.
SUTTOR):
.
'
That the Hon. F. T. Humphery do take the
chair of the Committees for this day only.
PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE.
The Ron. Dt·. GARRAN brought up the
report of the Public Works Committee on
the following proposed public works:Railway from Wellington to \Verris Creek.
Railway from Grafton to Casino.
Electric Tramway along Pitt-street.
Tuckian Flood Escape Scheme.
Railway from Temora and Wyalong.
Railway from Culcairn to Germanton.
Electric Tramway fi·om Belmore Park to Fort
Macquarie.
Railway from Narrabri to WalgeU, with
branch to Oollarcndapri.
STOCK-STEALING PRIWENTION BILL.
Resolved (on motion by Ron. F. B..
SUTTOR):
That leave be given to bring in a bill to prevent the stealing of stock, hides, and skins ; to
regulate the sales of the same ; to regulate the
slaughterin" of stock ; to amend the Act 5
\Villiam IV, No.1; and for purposes consequent
upon and incidental to such objects.
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORAL LAW.
SUSPENSION BILL.
Bill t·ead the third time.
RELIGIOUS TEACHING IN STATE
SCHOOLS.
The Ron. Dr. BOWKER rose to move:
That, in the opinion of this House, it should
Le one of the duties of e\'ery teacher of our
pn blic schools to teach and inculcate the principles of the Christian religion into his pupils.
He said : I bring forward this motion
becnuEe
I think that religious teaching
lLegi~latibe ~ouncH.
ought to be given in our public schools,
especially to the children of tlie poor.
Thu?·sday, fJ5 Octobe?·, 1900.
The rich people are able to have a religious
teacher of their own. 'l'hc poor people
Tempornry-Chainnnn of Committees-Public Works Comlmve not that opportunity. They are forced
mittee--Stock-stealing Prevention Bill-Parliamentary
Electoral Law Suspension Bill-Religious Teaching in
to send their children to a public school,
State Schools-·Navib-ution (Amendment) Bii:-Mines
where, in my opinion, there is not such
EngineerS' Hours Rrgulntion Bill (second reading)efficient religious teaching as there ought
Childrcn's Protection Act Amendment Bill (second
reading)-Money-lendcrs and Infants' Loan Bill(sccond · to be. I thinkJ am quite safe in saying
reading)-Dubbo Pastoral, Agricultural, nnd Horticulthat in our public schools there is not so
tural As.•ocintion Ilill (second rcnding)-Justices Acts
much religious teaching as there ought to
Amendment Dill (third rending)-Adjournment (Earlybe. Religion ought to be the most imclosing. Amendment Bill-lndustrinl Arbitration Bill).
portant thing in the community. No one,
·whether he is a heathen or whether he is
The DEPUTY-PRESIDENT took the chair. a Christian, can read the teachings of
4370
Religiot~s
Teaching
[C0UNCIL.]
in State Sclwols.
,. .
Christ without admiring them. "vVe ought No man, whether he is a heathen, or
to do what we can to give the poor whether he is a Christian, can say that
the advantage of those teachings. At the that teaching.is bad. And if it is not bad,
present time religious instruction is given every one ought to do his best to help
by clergymen. Many persons think that in its dissemination. God has given us
is enough. I do not t.hink it is enough. a splendid country and a grand and wonI think it should be one of the duties derful teacher. U uless we accflpt that
of a public school teacher to teach religion teaching federation ca.n never make this
to the children. I know that many clergy- a great nation. It is necessary also that
men oppose this proposal. They have we should be imbued with what is right
opposed it from the very beginning. When and good for a democracy. This democracy
the law was first passed in England, t.hat has got to a pretty good height. But the
unpaid monitors should give place to paid greatest safeguard in every democracy is
teachers, they opposed it, and they did that. the people who have to vote for the
it on principle. I do not blame them men to make the laws should know that
for what they do, but I think it is a they are good and trustworthy, and they
mistake on their part. They believe that can best do this by having instilled into
no one is so well able to teach religious them the principles of t.he Christia.n relimatters as is a clergyman, and therefore gion. So that, in order to make this a great
they ·think that no one else ought to people, the Government ought in evet·y
interfere. I think a preacher may not way to inculcate into them the principles
be a good teacher, and very often he of the Christian religion-that is, whether
is not. The working people want good they are' Christians or not. We know
teaching, especially now, and that should what befel Rome, and what the belief there
be a primary matter. I nsk bon. members was. They believed there was nothing
to think whether religious teaching should at all after death : it did not matter
not be a primary matter. If it should ba a straw as inasmuch after death there
a primary matter it should not be made, was nothing. There is a great deal of
as it is now, a secondary and desultory similarity between the people o£ Rome
matter. I have said that for years. Lord and our people in many things. Some
J olm Russell was the great means of writers have observed the same thingobtaining the substitution of paid teachers Freeman, for one. I hope the Honse will
for unpaid monitors. I feel so perfectly see that its duty is to encourage religious
sure that it is right that I hope that hon. teaching. What a splendid thing it is
members will think the matter over and for each individual to have the religious
agree with his view. Efficient religious feeling ! What a splendid thing for every
teaching is the grandest thing possible for boy to feel that if any misfortune should
this country. I wish that an abler speaker happen to him he is sure to be right
than myself had brought forward this in tho end ! "vVhat can be better than
proposal, but as no one did I thought it · that for anybody 1 Then, for the commy duty to do so. Religious teaching is munity, it takes away the fear o£ any
especially necessary now, bec!l.use we are danger that they may be exposed to. In
on the eye of federation, and people hope all these things it is advisable, I think,
that this will be a great Austra.lian nation. that we should encourage religious teachIt never can be a great nation unless the ing. I would not disturb the action of
people are what· they should be-unless the clergyman. In other respects, I think,
they are manly and good. The best way we should do the country a great service
to make them manly and good, whethet· for ever by endeavouring, as far as we can,
they are Christians or whether they are to get religion taught in the public schools
heathens, is to teach the principles of by the teachers. Tl1is is what Lord John
religion. These are good <tnd right. We Russell says on religious teaching in the
know that from reading the catechism, schools:
which says:
I think it is absolutely necessary our schools
1\fy duty towards my neighbour is to love him should not merely be secular, but tlmt they
be pro\'ided with religious teaching,
as myself, to do unto all men as I would· they should
and that religious teaching ought not to be secshould do unto me, and to honor my fnther tarian. There will be plenty of time when
and mother.
these children go to church or chapel that they
[The Hon. D?·. Bowke?'.
Religious Teaching
[25 Oar., 1900.]
should learn either that particular form of
doctrine their parents follow, or adopt one
more consistent with their conscientious feelings ; but, I think, while they are young boys
and girls at school, it ought to be sufficient
for them to know what Christ taught and
what the apostles taught; and from those
lessons and precepts they may guide their conduct in life.
We luwe the example of the old country
and the experience gained there to guide
us in this matter, and I believe that if we
adopt the course that I am now advocating, not only the individual children but
the community will receivethe benefit, and
the country itself will derive great advantage. Australia is a grand country, but
that is not sufficient in itself, for we have
examples in other parts of the world
where the people have been located in
grand countries equally as fine as our own,
but where they have never achieved greatness, or, if they had achieved it, their
greatness has not lasted. Turkey, for instance, is a fine country but without the
mainstay of religious teaching it can never
stand-it can never become great.. Another thing that I would like to mention
is that if anyone is imbued with the principles of the Clu·istian religion he must
know and he must believe that Heaven is
the goal of all our hopes, and that whatever unkindly fate may overtake us here
there is a gate of happiness through which
we may all eventually pass. Even those who
do not believe in the teachings of the Christian religion must admire its preceptsthey cannot find fault with them ; so that
from every point of view I would urge hon.
members to support me in this proposal.
Any one who wishes for the greatness of
his country and for the happiness of his
people must feel that it is the duty of
every one to assist in making that country
great and in increasing the sum of human
happiness. As sure as we stand here the
universal teaching.of the principles of the
Christian religion is the great want of this
country. .It will give our people hope and
courage in the midst of all their difficulties,
and we should have less of those pitiable
cases of suicide arising from the fact that
the people who thus do away with themselves have abandoned all hope. The universal teaching of the Christian religion will
prove a national safeguard, and a sound
conception of what is right will afford the
surest foundation for a great democracy.
in State Schools.
4371
I hope hon. members will realise the importance of this matter and support me in
the object I have in view.
Question proposed.
The Hon. F. B. SUTTOR: I quite agree
with the hon. and learned member who
has just resumed his seat as to the undoubted benefits of religious teaching-of
any religious teaching-but I think the
hon. and learned member will see on reflection how very difficult it would be for
the Department of Public Instruction to
carry out his wishes as defined in the resolution submitted for our consideration. I
think that of all the systems in vogue in
these Australian colonies-and they have
all had to deal with this difficulty of religious instruction-we may well boast that
the SJ.stem in force here is by far the best.
The principle which was adopted by the
great statesman who introduced the Public
Instruction Act which is now in forceSit· Henry Parkes-was that we should
throw the responsibility of religious instruction on the authorised instructors of
the ditrerent religious denominations, and
as far as pos~ible every provision haa been
made in that direction in the different
schools of the colony. The hon. and learned
member will recollect that there is a provision in the Public Instruction Act to the
effect that wherever it is possible this religious instruction should be given to the
children, in a room specially provided for
the purpose, by any person who comes to
the teacher and satisfies him that he is an
authorised teacher of religion of any
denomination. That being so, the hon.
and learned member will see how difficult
it would be to carry out his proposal. In
fact., I say his proposal could never be
carried out because of several objections
to it. Surely if religion is to be taught,
the people who teach it should be those
to whom the children look as their spiritual
advisers. The hon. member, however,
proposes that the tmths of Christianity
should be taught by every teacher, and
inculcated into every child. The bon.
member must see that if we did that we
should grossly offend the parents of the
children who are now attending our public
schools. The hon. member will see that
as the resolution now reads, the direction
would have to be given that every child
should be taught the Christian religion;
but what would we do with the Jewish
4372
Religiou.s Teaching
[COUNCIL.]
children~ It cannot be expected that they
should be taught, and perhaps it would
not be expected .that Chinese children
would be taught. Moreover, it must be
recognised that there are many persons in
our midst who have peculiar religious
ideas, from our Christian point of view,
who would strongly object to having even
the commonest truths of Christianity inculcated into their children, and the hon.
and learned member will see how difficult
it would be to carry out any direction that
e\·ery child should be taught. They are
not all Christian children, and one of the
great planks of onr public school system
is that we welcome to the door of our
schools every child who chooses to come
there. It does not matter of what religion
he is, but he is there to have an o_pportunity of receiving seculat· instruction.
My hon. friend will doubtless recollect
that the common truths of Christianity
are already taught in our schools. There
are in some of the books just the common
truths of Christianit.Y, and thesearetaught
to the classe~, and I tiJink it is a wise
provision also that no teacher in the public
·- • schools is allowed to dilate on the subject-matter of these particular lessons.
Some years ago-a good many years ago
-a resolution was passed in the Assembly to the effect that no person in the
public service should be required to say
what religion he belonged to. That applies
to public school teachers as well as to every
other person entering the public service
and, ft·om the date when that resolution
was carried up to the present time, no civil
servant or teacher has been asked to stale,
in his application for employment, what
his religion is. Therefore it is considered
that it is not desirable that even teachers
should be forced to say what religion they
belong to befot·e they receive employment.
Supposing it should be required that every
one of these teachers should give il)struction in the Christian faith and inculcate
its principles into his pupils, the hon. and
learned member must admit that it might
happen that some of the very best teachers
might have no religious belief at all. Some
of them might be atheists, and although
they might be eminently fitted for tho
position of secular teachers they would
not be qualified to act as teachers of religion.
Surely it is desirable that if
religion is taught it should be done by
[Tlw Hon. F. B. Stttlor
in State Schools.
persons who have the true religious feeling
themselves, and if this quality were insisted upon it would become necessary to
get rid of a number of the present teachers
who would have .to confess that they had'
no religious belief at all. This alone
would prove a very serious difficulty in
the way of carrying out the resolution.·
The teachers at preseut are not required
to state what religion they profess, and
I can only say that one of the very best
features in our Public Instt-uction Act is
that whilst it is neither free nor wholly
secular, in so far as that the common truths
of Christianity are taught, beyond that the
responsibility of seeing that the children
are brought up in the Christian faith is
thrown upon authorised religious teachers.
I recollect on many occasions, when I had
t.he honor to occupy the position of Minister
of Public J nstruction, I endeavoured by
every possible means to hold out inducements to teachers to give this religious instruction in the schools, and I am glad to
say that as year after year goes by the
opportunities afforded are being availed of
to a greater extent in all places where
t.here is any large number of pupils. These·
religious teachers take the opportunity of
instructing the children in the religious
faith of their particular denomination,
and I am glad to say that in Sydney there
is an association amongst the Church of
England people which is doing good.work.
The Hon. N. HAWKl'N: l\Iostly quacks!
The Ron. F. B. S UTTOR : Does the
hon. member refer to the Church of Eng- ·
'land people 1 I am glad to say that some
of the mPmbers of this association-the
Rev. Mr. Payne, for instance-take a great
interest in the teaching of the public school·
pupils, and Mr. Payne and those who are
associated with him are doing an infinity
of good in this way in the metropolitan
area. I also know of some cases in the
outlying districts where they avail ~o the
fullest extent of the hour afforded to them
for giving religious instruction. They can
have any hour they choose to arrange with
the teacher, and there is never any difficulty in Eetting apart a portion of the day
for imparting this instruction. I haYe a
clear recollection of one case that occurred
when I was Minister of Public Instruction. I went into a country place where
the public school was built a short distance
away from the Roman Catholic chapel,
Religious Teaching
[25
Oc~r.,
1900.]
in State Schools. ·
4373
"l
!
'
and the priest was anxious to teach the
Roman Catholic children, and made application that he might be allowed to teach
them in his own chapel instead of in the
school. I had not the slightest hesitation
about granting the request that he made.
It does not matter who the teachers are so
long as they are authorised teachers of religion, and every encouragement is given
to them to instruct the children in the
hour set apart for that purpose. ·with
regard to the resolution itself, the bon.
and learned membee will see how utterly
impracticable it would be to carry it out
as it now reads, because his proposal is to
the effect that every teacher shall really
teach every child.
'
The Ron. Dr. BowKER: You might
amP.nd it a little !
The Ron. F. B. SITTTOR: Supposing
it is amended, how woula. it be possible to
carry out such a resolution under our present system 1 I do hope that the system
which is now EO successfully carried out
in this colony will remain as it is for a
great many years, without any attempt
being made at alteration. 1t has been
admitted in the other colonies, and in every
other place thron~hout the world, that
there is a great difficulty in dealing with
this question of religious instruction where
there are a number of different denominations. I think that we have hit upon a
happy idea in teaching the children the common truths of Christianity without allowing the teachers to dilate ·upon them, and
throwing the respomiuility of further religious instruction upon authorised religious
teachers. I knowthatondifferentoccasions
the governments of the other colonies have
sent officers here to inquire into the working of our act, and I belie\·e that in every
case high encomiums have been passed upon
the law and upon the way in which it is carried out. I may further point out that in
connection with the elections now being
carried on in Victoria, where, I believe, the
system is absolutely secular, thP.y are proposing to h~tve a referendum upon the subject of whethcr or not they should have religious instruction in the public schools.
My chief objection to the idea that is embodied in the resolution is, that whilst an
individual teacher may be an admirable
instructor in all secular subjects, he may
utterly fai~ as a teacher of religion ; ;;,nd
therefore you could not possibly allow per-
sons, however eminently qualified as secular teachers, to have control over religious
teaching in the schools. It would be impossible to teach religion in the schools in
detail, as our public-school children represent all religious denominations, and one
teacher might have children belonging to
four or five religious bodies to impart instruction to. There would be great confusion if any attempts were made to instruct the children in the principles of any
particular denomination, and we must,
under the circumstances, confine ourselves
to the present system of imparting the
ordinary common truths of Christianity in
th•e course of the secular lessons. My hon.
friend has had an opportunity of expressing his opinion on the su~ject, and I have
had a similar opportunity ; and whilst
other bon. members may wish to similarly
avail themselves, I hope the hon. and
learned member will not press his motion,
but will withdraw it without asking th~
Honse to come to any decitiion.
The Ron. P. L. C. SHEPHERD : I
believe the hon. and learned member's
intention in introducing the resolution
is a good onf', but the wording of his
resolution renders it impracticable. The
difficulty of teaching the principles of
the Christian religion to the pupils in our
public schools who belong to all sorts
of different sects is not to be overcome
-and, moreover, any attempt to carry
out a resolution snch as this would be
extremely unpopular. lf the bon. and
learned gentleman had worded his resolution to the eftect t-hat it was desirable to
open and close the school '~ith prayer it
would have been a very different matter.
I think it has always been a weak point
in connection with our pu1lic schools that
God is not acknowledged in them. When
I went to school-and I attended two of
the principal schools here, the Sydney
College and the Australian College-it was
always opened and closed with prayer.
The scholars included Catholics, Jews,
Protestants, and members of almost every
sect you could imagine, but I never knew
any except-ion to be taken to the prayers,
which were simple and inoffensive to every
scholar. I think it would be an advantage if our public schools were to be
opened with a short pmyer acknowledging
God, and asking His blessing on the children and teachers. It is often said that
i
l
-~:
I
j
~
,.r·
I
4374
·Religious Teaching
[COUNCIL.]
in State Sclwols.
it is the parents' duty to give religions in- enor in people's ideas of what is religion.
struction to their children. No doubt it Going to church and conforming to certain
is their duty; but how many families are rules and so on is not religion. vVe are
there where the Bible is unknown and told "To· do justly and to Jo,·e mercy and
where prayet· is almost unknown 1 I think to walk humbly with thy God." We are
it would be a great advantage to the chil- also told that "Pure religion and undefiled
dren attending the public schools if they before God and the father is this : To
were to hear God's blessing invoked upon visit the fatherless and widows in their
them ; it would, a.t all events, give them ltffliction, and to keep himself unspotted
some idea that there is a divine being· to from the world." This might be taught in
whom they can look for help and strength, all our schools. All those grand truths
and there is no knowing but what it might which appeal to everyone might be taught
in very many instances lead to a very good there, and I am sure that such a proposal
result. I am very sorry tlmt the hon. and would commencl itself to hon. members in
learned member has worded his resolution this House. I see the difficulty that arises
in such a way that I cannot vote for •it. from the present conflict of sectarianism,
If it had simply advocated the principle and, as I have said, it is fortunate that our
of opening and closing the school with public school system has to some extent
prayer it would have had my hearty sup- done away with sectarianism and has
port; but, under the circumstances, I can- ·thus a tendency to make us one people in
not see my way cleat' to vote for it.
religion. Let us hope that some day
The Hon. B. BACKHOUSE: I thor- sectarianism w~l be wiped out altooughly appreciate the motive which evi- gether, and I should like the hon. memdently Jed the bon. and learned member to bet· to add to his resolution the words :
bring forward this motion. There is no " in addition to the teaching of econdoubt that he is absolutely right in saying omic principles of justice," as economic
I myself
it is essential that religion should be truths are divine truths.
taught to the young, and it appears from have brought up lt large number of chilthe remarks of tho Vice· President of the dren and I have inculcated in them the
Executive Council that in the reading principles of religion, but not of sectarianbooks used in the public schools, lessons ism. I believe that all the churches are
are given which practically introduce reli- doing some good in their way, but they 11.re
gious teaching of a non-sectarian character, not doing as much good as they might.
the teachers not being allowed to com- Therefore, Heel that I should like to follow
ment. 'l'he question is rendered a difficult , the hon. and leamed member, so far as his
one to deal with because of the sectarian-· intention is concerned.
ism that Las gt·own up amongst us, but
The Ron. Dr. BOWKER, in reply: I
the virulence of which is happily becoming must express my unbounded astonishment
less. I think'that the teaching of religion and disgust that any member of a governto children attending the public schools ment should applaud teachprs of schools
in the way alluded to by the Vice. President who have no religion. I hope it will beof the Executive Council, by taking children come known throughout every portion of
into a room apart from the school by the the country that a member of this House
ministers of the various denominations, has applauded thesystemofhavingin public
helps to keep alive sectarianism, and is schools teachers who have no religion.
therefore a bad. and most unfortunate
The Hon. F. B. SuTTOR : I did not say
practice. I look upon our public.school
that!
system as being effective as far as we exThe Hon. Dr. BOWKER : It seems to
clude from it tho sectarian element. Let
me
a most extraordinary utterance.
us hope that some day the first commandment, to love God with all our heart and soul,
The Hon. F. B. SuTTOU : The hon. and
and the second commandment, to lo•e our learned member misunderstood what I said.
neigh hour as ourselves, will be the sum and I did not applaud the idea of having
substlmce of the religious instruction given teachers who were without religion; but
in the schools. Surely those principles I said that some of them possibly were
out any clashing. There is very much without religious feeling. That is very
might be inculcated by the teacher with- di{l'erent from my applauding it.
[The Hon. P. L. C. Shepherd.
Religious Teaching in Schools. [25 00'1'., 1900.] .Mines Engineers' Hours Bill. 4375
The Hon. Dr. BOWKER: Then more
shame to the system of the Government.
The Hon. F. B. SuTTOR : It is the system of the colony, not of the Government !
The Hon. Dr. BOWKER: As for the
difficulty of having religious teachers in the
schools-that they would displace otbersI think there would be very little difficulty
in giving the teacher an order to teach
religion. This motion is not a bill-it is
merely an incentive to the Government to
do something more in teaching religion to
those poor children who get almost none
of it and who grow up to be larrikins, or
perhaps suicides, or become bad in other
ways. This is what LordJ ohn Russell says:
I think it is absolutely necessary our schools
should not merely be secular, but that they
should be provided with religious teaching, and
that religious teaching ought not to be sectarian.
This motion does not say that the teaching should be sectarian, but it gives a hint
to the Government that there should be
some religious teaching in the schools.
How anyone could advocate the contrary,
I cannot underRtand. I pity the poor crea·~ures who would do that.
When I was
young, people used to go to church. Now,
every Sunday I see people going to places of
amusement. That shows an indifference to
religion. Indifference to religion has been
the forerunner of the fall of many nations,
and may be so iu our case. As sure as can
be, indifference to religion will prevent the
people o£ this country from becoming a
grand people ; and without a grand people
you cannot have a grand country. In Melbourne and other places, people are trying
what they can do to improve the religious
teaching. As to Chinese being in the schools
and their not being taught the Christian
religion, of course the teacher is not to
teach sectarianism, but to inculcate the
general principles of the Christian religion.
Even a Chimtman must admire a system
that would prevent any person from mur·
dering or injuring him. It is to be admired by everybody. The teacher would be by
no means bound to teach sectarianism. By
this motion I merely give the Government
a hint as to what might be done in the
direction of religious teaching, and I am.
sure that the difficulties mentioned by the
Vice-President of the Executive Council
could be overcome. Thisdebatehas brought
out the fact that many of the teachers in
our public schools have no religion.
The Hon. F. B. SuTTOR: My hon. and
learned friend is incorrect in saying that I
intimated to him that a large number of
the teachers have no religion. I said it
was possible that there might be a good
teacher of secular subjects who had no religious feeling; but I did not say that
there were such teachers.
.
The Hon .. Dr. BOWKER: Under the
circumstances I will withdraw the motion
rather than press it to a division.
1\Iotion, by leave, withdrawn.
NAVIGATION (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Bill received from the Legislative Assembly, and, on motion (by the Hon. F.
B. SuT~ron) read the first time.
MINES ENGINEERS' HOURS
REGULATION BILL.
SECOND READING.
The Ron. J. WILSON rose to move:
That this bill be now read the second time.
He said : This bill is not a very large or
very pretentious one. Probably on cursorily reading the bill its merits may be
missed. It contains seven clauses dealin"
with the limitation of the hours of hoisting
engineers, and preventing an engineer from
leaving his engine during the eight hours in
which he is employed. I know of no class
of men in the community who occupy more
responsible positions than do hoisting engineers. They are really the custodians
of the lives of the miners who work below,
and I think it is only a fair and reasonable thing to ask the House to consent to a
measure that will recognise that eight hours
is a sufficient time for a man to hold that
position. I am not going to make. a statement to the efl'ect that the drivers in connection with hoisting engines throughout
New South \Vales are working what is
commonly known as outrageously long
hours. I am pleased to be able to say
that the mine-owners in some of our large
mines have recognised the wisdom of allowing the men to work only eight hours. They
do that, I presume, for one reason-that
in limiting the hours to eight they protect a
very valuable portion of their property.
They are also doing it, I believe, from
an,other motive-to- give the engine-driver
an opportunity of ceasing from the severe
strain which the position naturally entails
upon him. The conditions under which
4376
Mines Engineers' Ifow·s
[COUNCiL.]
the engine-driver works are certainly most
arduous. The men are generally confined
in a small compartment with a roof of
corrugated iron, and what with the intense
heat of the summer and the heat arising
from the engine it is anything but an enviable position which they occupy. Then,
again, the stra.in which is upon them,
and the extt·emely monotonous character
of their employment, warrants me, at any
rate, in asking the House to say that eight
hours is sufficiently long for a man to
endure the strain that is naturally imposed
on one who has such serious responsibilities
resting on him. At the present time the
drivers are working from eight hours a
day up to tweh·e. I think anyone who
has a knowledge of the duties which a
hoisting engineer bas to perform will admit that anything outside eight hours is
more than a man has a right to be called
upon to work. Cl::tuse 3, I would point
out, provides that no hoisting engineet·
shall leave his engine during the eight
hours unless he is instructed to do so by
his superior officer, who shall Le held responsible for his absence. Th<tt, I recognise, iR a very important clause-not that
it gives any relief to the man who dri\'es
the engine, but that it certainly prevents
a man from doing othet· work which takes
him right out of the hearing of the signals
which may be gi1·en, and, of course, the
result of a man hearing the signals may
be to endanger t.he safety of hurua11 li 1•es.
I do not want to go into t.he orthodox·
eight·hour speech on this question, because
we have had a fair deal with that lately.
'\Ve all regret, and would like to minimise,
the many accidents which occur in our
mines throughout New South Wales, and
believe the tendency of this bill will be to
minimise the dangers which tLre being incurred. The passing of this bill is requested
by the engineers who work eight hours, as
well as by those who work a longer number
of hours. They are not particularly selfish
in their motives. I believe the man who
works eight hours recognises that that is
quite long enough to occupy that position.
. From the economic standpoint I do not
think a mine-owner, or anyone who has a
financia.l interest in a mine, can object to
the passing of the bill, as the extra expen·
diture is so extremely 'small, while the
value attaching to the carrying of such
legislation to the owners themselves will,
[The Hon. J. Wilson.
Regulation Bill.
I believe, warrant the small increased
expenditure. I ask the House to take
the measure kindly into their consideration, to allow the second reading to pass,
and of course to deal with the bill as they
think fit in Committee.
Question resol \'eel in the affirmative.
Bill read the second time.
In Committee:
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2. The eight hours' employment shall
commence from the time the engineer takes
charge of his engine, and cease at the expiration of eight hours from such time.
The Hon. J. H. WANT said he would.
like to know from the hon. member in
charge of this bill the meaning of the
words "takes charge of his engine." It
was mther a broad, comprehensive term.
He did not know why his hon. friends
had allowed this bill to go to its second
reading. That was a matter, however,
which he had nothing to do with at present.
He admitted that he had come too late
on the scene.
.
The lion. J. ESTELL said that an engine·shed was built at most of the large
mines, and immediately an engine-driver
went into that shed and took charge of the
engine to haul coal or other mineral his
day's work began. In the nort.hern districts at the present time the drivers had
the eight hours' system. They had nothing
to do with firing and getting steam up;
they came when the pit started, took charge
of the engine, and knocked off at the end
of eight hours.
The Hon. P. L. C. SHEPHERD said
that no provision appeared to be made in
the clause to meet the case where any delay might occur. If the eight hours should
expire before the miners returned to the
shaft they would be stuck in the mine all
nigl1t.
The Hon. J. WILSON pointed out that
the following proviso to clause 4 met a
Cf.I,Se Of that kind :Provided, however, that the provisions of this
act shall not apply to any engineer or person
who temporarily operates any of the engines
mentioned for more than eight hours in one clay
. when, from sickness or other unforeseen causes,
the person regularly employed is unable to operate the same.
The Hon. A. J. GOULD said that if
thr. hours of the men in the mine began at
the same time as those of the hoisting en-
Mines Engineers' Hours
[25 OCT., 1900.]
gineer the former would be in the mine
when the hours of the latter expired, and
they would be left there until somebody
else came on to work the hoisting engine.
It would be uncomfortable for the miners
to be detained down below unless they
happened to take their meals and their
beds with them. He did not know whether
this difficulty was quite insuperable. The
proviso to clause 4 only alluded to a matter that occurred from something unforeseen happening. It would not be possible
to put on a man for the express purpose,
o~ make a man remain at work longer
than eight l10urs for a purpose like that
unless something had happened from sickness or other unforeseen cause. That was
a cause which must be foreseen.
The Hon. H. E. KATER said it seemed
to him that the eight hours began to run
from the time the engine was taken
charge of. As far as he remembered the
provision in the Coal-mines Regulation
Bill, the eight hours of the miner began
to run from the time he reached the face
of the workings. If the face of the workings was situated at a distance of half·amile or a mile from the shaft it would
take him some time after he had completed
his eight hours to walk to the shaft, and
in the meantime the engine·driver would
have left his post. He did not know
whether by·a side-wind the bon. member,
Mr. ·wilson, was attempting to get the
House to legislate in the direction of saying that a miner's eight hours should begin
from the time he reached the bottom of
the pit.
Tbe Hon. J. WILSON: Very few of the
miners work eight hours !
The Hon. H. E. KATER: If one of
them worked eight hours that was quite
sufficient for him.
The Hon. J. 'WILSON: There are two
shifts!
The Hon. H. E. KATER said if there
were one or two mines where the miners
were working eight hours, and their hours
must be counted from the time they
reached the face of the workings-it was
obvious that the time which was spent in
going to and from the shaft would not be
counted. So far as he could see, when the
men returned to the bottom of the shaft
they would find the engine deserted, and
would have no way of getting up to the
urface. He thought that we should be
13
Regulation Bill.
4377
very careful before we passed the clause
without a great deal of explanation to
show us that it was right.
The Hon. J. M. CREED said that apparently the difficulty would arise in the
case of a mine having only one tJhift. It
might make the engine-driver come on and
go off with the miners. He suggested
that the hon. mem her should agree to this
provision being added to the clause :
Provided that in those mines having only
one shift the engine-driver shall remain on suflicently long to raise the miners from the bottom
to the surface, such time not to exceed one hour.
The Hon. A. J. GouLD : The same difficulty would be experienced at the end of
the second shift !
The Hon. J. H. WANT confessed that
he did not quite understand the explanation of his hon. friend, Mr. Estell. This
bill would make it penal for a man to work
longer than eight hours. He found from
other clauses that no person was to be occupied more than eight hours, and that :
Any person, employee, mana,ger, or employer
who shall violate or cause any other person to
violate the provisions of this act shall be deemed
to have been guilty of an offence against this :1ct,
and be liable on summary conviction, before a
stipendiary or police magistrate or any two or
more justices of the peace, to a penalty not exceeding forty shillings nor less than ten shillings
for each offence.
Virtually it did for drivers what we refused to do the other night for the miners.
The Bon. H. E. KATER : The conditions
are different !
The Hon. J. H. WANT said he did not
know that the conditions were different.
If you were going to make eight hours
compulsory as a day's labour, the miner
was more entitled to the concession than
the driver who worked above ground.
An HoN. ME~IBER : He has all the
miners' lives in his hands !
The Hon. J. H. WANT.: That might
be ; but we all knew that the mine-owners
were responsible for the miners' lives if a
driver were guilty of any negligence.
An RoN. MEMBER: There was no satisfaction in that for the widow and children
of a man who got killed!
The Hon. J. H. WANT: There was no
satisfaction to the widow and children of
a man who met with an accident in any
case.
The Hon. H. E. KATER : The proper
thing to do is to negative the clause !
R
.j
4378
Mines Engineers'
Ho~ws
[COUNCIL.]
The l-Ion. J. H. WANT : The clause
provided that the eight hours should run
from the time the engineer took charge of
his engine. He worked eight hours now,
but he supposed that the man must leave
his post to get his dinner. He did not
approve Of the bill <tt all. He confessed
that he came here too late to speak on the
second reading, but as he had always objected to any bill making more than eight
hours work penal, he would take the
liberty of asking the Committee to omit
this clause, with the view, he candidly
admitted, of destroying the bill.
The Hon. J. ESTELL hoped that the
Committee would not negative the clause,
after having admitted the principle of the
bill by agreeing to the second reading. The
difference that the bon. and learned member, Mr. Want, had pointed out could be
easily overcome. In most of the pits of
the northern district there were two
shifts. There was a competent man to
take charge of the engine before the hauling engine driver came on. This m<tn was
quite capable of doing all the wot·k of
lowering .or lifting up the men before the
hoisting engineer came on. From a return
with which he had been supplied, he
learnt that at the Australian Agricultural
Company's Newcastle pit, the men went
in by tunnel. In the Burwood pit they
had two drivers, in Old Lambton they
entered by a tunnel, in New Lambton
they had one driver, and in Greta, where
there was another pit, they had three
drivers. At the different places where the
men were taken from the surface in a cage
to the bottom, there was always one capable driver, or more than one shift of
engine men, working; so that the dift1culty
which had been foreshadowed by the hon.
and learned member had been overcome
There was always a. m<tn there to bring the
men from below and let them down.
The Hon. Sir ARTITUR RENWICK: What
is the experience with regard to metalliferous mines 1
The Hon. J. ESTELL : In metalliferous mines it was the custom to work
three shifts-right through the twenty-four
hours. In most instances, both the miners
and engineers worked, in shifts, right round
• th.e clock.
The Hon. J. WILSON proposed to move
that the Chairmanleavetl1e chair and report
progress. As the House had affirmed the
[The Hon. J. II. Wcmt.
Regulation Bill.
principle of the bill by passing the second
reading, he hoped he would be abletoframe
an amendment that would satisfy the
scruples of some hon. members who had
raised objections. He did not pretend to be
a, practical man, but simply claimed to be
acquainted with the general conditions
under which the work had to be carried
on, but he hoped to be able to satisfy the
hon. member, Mr. Want, and other members by amending the bill in such a form
as to meet the objections which had been
expressed. He moved :
That the Chairman do now leave the chair,
report progress, and ask leave to sit again on
Thursday next.
Question proposed.
The Ron. J. H. WANT said that ·if it
were simply a question of amending the
bill he would oppose the motion. His objection to the bill was to the whole principle
of it. He was willing to admit that it was
his own fault that he was not in the Honse
to vote ngainst the second reading; but if
there were any members who totally disapproved of the bill, they were entitled to
take any course they could, under the rules
of the House, with a view to destroying it
altogether. His object was not to amend
the bill, but to defeat it altogether, and
therefore no amendment which the hon.
member could frame would meet his objection. If the hon. member wished for an
adjournment with a view to withdrawing
the bill he would not mind.
The Hon. J. WILSON: I cannot withdraw the bill, as the House has carried the
second reading.
The Ron. J. H. WANT : If the hon.
member did not see that course open to
him he thought that any adjournment with
a view of making the bill more pleasing
would be absolutely useless. He had never
hesitated to say that he objected to any
bill that would have the effect of making
eight hours compulsory, and he looked upon
this bill as introducing the thin end of the
wedge. By-and-bye, when it was proposed
to make the eight hours system compulsorily applicable to miners, it would be said
that we had already done it in regard to
engineers and that we should also do it
with regard to coal-miners. Wehad already
stated that we would not approve of the
principle that men should be subject to
pains and penalties for working in mines
more than eight hours; and the House hav-
1lfines Enginee1'8''1Iours
[25 OCT., 1900.]
iilg done that, this proposal would have
the effect of sneaking in the eight hours
movement. vVe were told that it was the ·
custom of the country to work on the
eight hours principle, and that the custom
prevailedalmosteverywhere .: and he wished
to know why it was necessary to make it
compulsory, and to penalise those who
· worked over the specified time. We did
not know for what trifling matter an engineer might be hauled up for working more
than eight hours; and as the clause was not
.sufficient to cover cases of emergency, an
unfortunate engineer or mine-owner might
find himself liable to be prosecuted at the
police comt because there had been. some
small breach of the act. He was opposed
to the principle of the bill altogether, and
it was not a question of modelling any
amendment to meet his objection, and
therefore he would object to progress
He assured the bon.
being reported.
member in charge of the bill that it was
not out of any desire to interfere with his
conduct of tbe measure, but simply because, as he had. frankly told the hon.
member, he desired to defeat the bill, that
he regarded himself as compelled to take
the present course. He would ask bon.
members who objected to the introducing
of the thin end of the wedge of the compulsory eight-hours system to join him in
objecting to the postponement for the p1Jrpose of altering the clause to make it palatable. No alteration in the clause could
alter the principle of the bill.
The Hon. J. WILSON considered that
the hon. and learned member, llfr. Want,
had taken up a most illogical position. The
House had approved of the principle involved in the bill, and he did not think
that he had laid himself open to the
charge of attempting to sneak in anything
that would take the form of introducing
the thin end of the wedge of the compulsory eight-hour~:~ system.
The Hon. J. H. WANT : I do not say
that the hon. member did it, but that the
passing of the bill will have that effect !
The Hon. J. WILSON had fully explained the principles of the bill; and as
the House had unanimously conceded that
principle, he was now asking hon. members
to afford him an opportunity of meeting.
the objections raised by the bon. member,
M.r. Gould, and the hon. and learned member, Mr. Want, and others. He hoped that
· Regulation Bill.
4379
the bon. and learned member, 1\ir. Want,
would stand alone in his objection to the
principle of the bill.
The Hon. N. J. BUZAOOTT did not
consider that the bon. and learned member,.
1\ir. Want, was paying any great compliment to the Committee in asking bon.
members, after having carried the second1
reading of the bill unanimously on the
voices, to join him like a flock of sheep
following the hell-wether in objecting to
the principle of the bill. He thought
the hon. and learned member should withdraw his opposition and allow the bon.
member in charge of the bill to have an
oppQrtunity of submitting an amendment.
If the amendment did not please the bon.
and learned member he would have an
opportunity of defeating the bill on the
motion for the third reading. Personally
he thought tha~ an amendment might be
framed at once to nwet the objections.
raised by some hon. members; but as the·
hon. member in charge of the bill desired'
an adjoumment no objection should be·
raised.
The Hon. A. J. GOULD could not go·
as far as the hon. member in charge of thebill in saying that because the Bouse had
affirmed the principle of the bill by passing
the motion for the second reading no
attempt should be made to destroy it. The·
House had let the matter go without anyone having directed attention to any objec-tions that he might have to the provisions
of the bill, and the mere fact of the House
having passed the motion for the second
reading on the voices did not afford any
reason why hon. members who objected to
the principle should not endeavour to.·
destroy the bill. So far as he was concerned· he always had a strong disinclination to interfere with any hon. member
in conducting a bill through the House;
and in view of the o~jections which had
been raised; and the desire of the bon.
member, M.r. ·wilson, to report progress,
he did not feel inclined to vote against the.
motion in that direction. It had been
stated that the eight-hour rule was universally recognised as far as mine-engineers
were concerned in this country, and therefore it might fairly be argued that this
was a reason why we should not bother·
about the proposed legislation. On the
other hand, if we found that proprietors
had recognised the custom, there could be
4380 Mines Engineers' Hours Bill. [COUNCIL.]
no very great harm in proposing to £x it
by placing it on the statute book, provided
that there were ample safeguards against
the :Provision bringing about the state of
affairs in connection with applying the
compulsory eight-hour system to miners
that the House had refused to legalise. It
did seem strange that this bill should come
on just after hon. members had refused to
alter the law with regard to the working
hours of miners, and the hon. member in
charge of the bill had been urged to make
provision so that he would not indirectly
gain what the B.ouse had refused to make
law by direct means. It was a reasonable
thing to give the hon. member an oppor-tunity of doing this, as those hon. mem hers
who o~jected to the principle of the bill
-could secnrc its r~jection at a future time.
The Hon. C. E. PILCHER said that it
ihad always been the practice in the House
to extend .every consideration to an hon.
'member in charge of a bill, and although
·he did not like the bill, and would cer·tainly have voted against the second reading, he did not think hon. members had
.-any right to object to the proposed postponement, or to express an opinion upon
. an amendment which had not been laid
before the Committee, and which might
·possibly meet the difficulty. The hon.
member should be allowed to submit his
amendment, and then, if il; did not meet
the difficuHy, and hon. members who were
opposed to the bill still held the same view,
they would have an opportunity of expressing their disapproval at a later stage.
'l'he Hon. J. MACINTOSH had not
paid much attention to the bill before, but
after having looked at it, he would vote
against the proposed postponement altogether. It seemed to him to apply to
.every miner in the country, and in cases
where there was only one engineer em•ployed on a small mining property, perhaps in charge of a pumping plant neces·sary to keep the water down, he could
·Conceive circumstances in which a bill of
this kind would operate with great inconvenience and hardship.
The lion. J. ESTELL : The bill deals
with hoisting engines, and not with pumping engines I
The Hon. J. MACINTOSH would oppose the postponement all the same.
The Hon. J. H. WANT said that as
there seemed to be some impression on
[~he lion. A. J. Gould.
Children's Protection Bill.
the part of the hon. member in charge of
the bill that there was an idea of treating
him with discourtesy-The Hon. J. WILSON: I had not any
such impression !
The Hon. J. H. WANT was glad to
hear that. He had been thinking the matter over, and he would withdraw his opposition to the motion, because he thought perhaps it would be fairer to the hon. member to allow him to bring down his amendment. He only hoped the hon. member ·
would be able to persuade him out of his
objections. If the bon. member would pass
the bill without establishing a precedent
that would have the effect of initiating a
compulsory eight-hours system, he would
be very glad indeed to support him. No
one approved more than he did of men not
working more than eight hours at their
engines; but he objected altogether to the
compulsory element. He did not accuse the
hon. member of sneaking in the principle
of the compulsory eight-hours system, but
he thought that the effect of passing the bill
in its present form would be in that direction. He would withdraw his opposition.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read the second time.
CHILDREN'S PROTECTION ACT
AMENDn1ENT BILL.
KECO::o!D READING.
'tr'he Hon. J. M. CREED rose to move :
That this bill be now read the second time.
He said : This bill has been sent to us
from the Assembly, and its object is to
amend an act which was passed in 1892
for the protection of children, and especially of infant life. As in all laws of such
a character, it has been found that there
are certain omissions and defects which
can only be remedied by additional legislation, and the object of this bill is to give
powers which have been found to be necessary in the working of the original
act. This House may claim the credit
of having made the present a comparatively perfect measure. It did infinite
service to the country and humanity, and
saved the lives of many children. A very
good provision in this bill is contained in
clause 6. It permits the court under the
principal act to commit a child to the
custody of an industrial school in such
cases where they might commit it to the
care of a relation or friend but find that
Children's Protection Act
[25 OcT., 1900.]
that relation or friend is unsuitable or
I think that
unfit to take charge of it.
bon. members will agree that that is a
very good provision. It is perhaps hardly
necessary for me to call the spe.cial attention of bon. members to the clau.~es up to
clause 11. Ron. members, no doubt, have
read the bill and have realised what those
clauses provide. Those clauses deci~;ively
determine what the powers of the justices
are to be particularly as regards matters
of court procedure. Clause 11 makes a
very considerable addition to the powers
given under the principal act, and I am
sure that hon. members will realise how
necessary such powers are. Every night
we see running about the streets of
the city, sometimes until midnight, small
children selling matches and other things,
when for the sake of their own physical
and moral health, as well as for the sake
of the future of the country, they should
be at home. Clause 11 provides for the
infliction of a penalty upon
any person who causes or procures, or who,
having the custody or charge, allows any child
under the age of sixteen years to lle in any place
for the purpos& of begging or receiving ttlms, or
inducing the giving of alms, whether under the
pretence of singing, playing, performing, offering
anything for sale, or otherwise.
It also provides :
Causes or procures, or who having the custody
or charge allows any child, being a boy under
the age of fourteen years or a girl under the age
of sixteen years to be in any place, or in any
premises licensed according to the law for public
entertainments, for the purpose of singing,
playing, or performing for profit, or offering
anything for sale, between ten post-meridian
and six ante-meridian ; or - -
I think that bon. members will realise
that such performance by children of that
particular age should be over by 10 o'clock.
The clause also provides :
Causes or procures, or who having the custody
or charge allows any child under the age of ten
years to be at any time in any place, or in any
premises licensed according to the law for public
entertainments, or in any circus or other place
of public amusement to which the public are
admitted by payment, for the purpose of singing,
playing, or performing for profit, or offering anything for sale.
I think bon. members will agree with me
that 10 years is a fair limit of age under
which children should not be permitted to
do those things, unless for special reasons
that may arise in certain cases. In regard
to these cases the clause provides that the
Minister, after having made inquiry, may
Amendment Bill.
4381
issue a license which shall permit such child
to be employed under fitting conditions :
Provided that in the case of any entertainment
or series of entertainments to take place in premises licensed according to law for public entertainments or in any circus or other place of
public amusement as aforesaid, where it is shown
to the satisfaction of the Minister that proper
provision has been made to secure the health
and kind treatment of any children proposed
to be employed thereat, it shall be lawful for the
said Minister, anything in this act notwithstanding, to grant a license for such time and
during such hours of the day and subject to
such restrictions and conditions as he may think
fit for any child exceeding seven years of age, of
whose fitness to take part in such entertainment
or series of entertainments without injury the said
Minister is satisfied, to take part in such enter-·
tainment or series of entertainments, and such
license may, at any time, be varied, added to,.
or rescinded by the said Minister upon sufficient'
cause being shown, and such license shall be
sufficient protection to all persons acting uncle~·
or in accordance with the same. And the Min-·
ister may appoint any person to see that the
restrictions and conditions of any license underthis section are duly complied with.
I think bon. members will agree with me·
that any possible hardship or difficulty in<.
the carrying out of public performances:
through the necessity of having young
children taking part in them will be
met by this special license.· The higher
class of managers of theatres and music
halls probably do not require this restriction, hut there are many other pLte' s not
conducted by men of particularly high
character in regard to whicn it is very
advisable there should be some restriction
such as this, so that in ca.se of any hardship occurring the Minister of the day,
on good cause being shown, could remedy
it. I think it is unnecessary for me to.
give a longer explanation of the provisions
of the bill as it is acknowledged, I think,.
by hon. members to be a measure that
remedies the defects of an act which, even
in its present state, has been found to
work with advantage.
Question proposed.
The Hon. Sir ARTHUR RENWICK:
It is my intention to vote for the second
reading of the bill, which I think is a step
in the right direction. I think considerable credit is due to thb hon. member in
the other Chamber, Mr. Neild, who has
taken action in this matter.
The Hon. J. HuGHES: The action was
originally taken by the bon. member, Mr.
Creed!
4382
Children's Protection Act
[COUNCIL.]
The Ron. Sir ARTHUR l~ENWIOK:
Thehon.member, Mr. Creed, deserves credit
for the action he has taken in. this Chamber.
For many years he has devoted a considerable amount of attention to this matter. The
question of the protection of waifs and strays
in this city is in the most marvellous condition it is possible to conceive. No comparison can be made between the steps
that have been taken in the adjoining provinces of Australasia and in New South
Wales. We are all behind in legislation
of this character. It is only in connection
with the boarding-out system as carried
out by this colony that we have any
reason whatever to be proud of our mode
of dealing with the waifs of the city. I
have carefully considered the bill, and
while I recognise the admimblfl provisions
embodied in it, I regret extremely that the
Government themselves have not taken
into consideration the necessity for introducing a consolidating bill having reference to our reformatories, our industrial
schools, the children placed under the
Children's Protection Act, and the children
who are boarded out. All these things
should come under one board, and be
placed under.oile minister, and be directed
in the same way as they are in South Australia and Victoria. As you -\vill know,
sir, as a member of the State Children's
Relief Board, in South Australia all these
matters are arranged by a board. They
are managed in a way that is a credit to
that province, and they are so managed
that difficulties such as perhaps might
be expected to arise even under the working of our principal act and this bill
never occur. In this colony two ministers deal with 'thesfl matters. We have
As regards many of
several systems.
the children who are taken from the
streets and who, under the principal act
and this bill could be placed in reformatories and industrial schools, we have
only legislation which forty years ago was
introduced by Sir James 1\:Iartin. Why
this should be the case I cannot understand, except the reason is that in this
colony social questions, especially of late
years have received no attention.from our
politicians. It appears to me that in this
connection it is very desirable that the
whole of these children should be managed
under one system-that they should all be
placed under one control, and that one
[The Ilon. Sir Arthur Renwick.
Amend11'tent Bill.
minister should direct the whole affair.
In connection with the management of
our state children, thet·e are two or three
matters which I consider of supreme importance, . which unfortunately are not
dealt with in this amendment of the principal act.
In South Australia and in
Victoria special courts are utilised for the
purpose of treating these young children.
In this colony children are arrested by a
constable and are taken immediately to
some police court in the precincts of which
they have to mix with all the waifs and
stmys that congregate at such places and
even worse characters sometimes. Only
the other day, in the neighbourhood of a
large public school in this colony, containing over 1,000 scholars, I saw three little
boys who had been arrested f01·one of those
little offences that children commit, in
the custody of a policeman and surrounded
by hundreds of children living in the
immediate neighbourhood. Those children
were dragged through the streets, put into
a tram, and carried away, and were made
heroes of, or at all events were sympathised with by the ot!H•r children-a
most injurious thing. In South Australia
and Victoria a special conrt, and, if necessary, special magistrates are appointed for
the purpose of dealing with such children.
I, year after year, in my reporls as President of the Children's Relief Board, called
the attention of the Government to this
matter, and I drafted a bill dealing with
it. In my opinion such a measure should
be in the hands of the Government and
not in that of private members, although
private members deserve all credit for trying to remedy things due to the laches of
the Government. The great improvement
to be effected is that children, after they
have been arrested, should be placed under
the control of one or other of the bodies to
which I have referred. There ought to be
some arrangement by means of which the
childreh conld be removed from one control to another, in order that their education and moral training may ultimately be
promoted. No provision of that kind has
been made up to the pref_\ent time, but the
bill undoubtedly moves in the right direction. Anyone who knows anything of
this matter must see that we are face to
face with very grave social defects. Our
streets are overrun with children drifting
from vice.to crime, a~d although the bill
Children's Protection Act
[25 OcT., 1900.]
Amendment Bill.
4383
provides machinery for their rescue there must all deplore the fact that we are so
are some particulars in regard to which I in- much behindhand in regard to legislation
tend, when in Committee, to move amend- dealing with children. Those of us who
ments. The bill provides that the children reside in Sydney must, of course, be fully
shall be arrested by a constable. Now, as aware of the large number of children who
a matter of fact, the children in many cases appear to be utterly neglected and unare not arrested by a constable, but are cared for. Anything that can be done in
taken charge of by inspectors, who are also the way of legislation that will assist in
inspectors under the State Children's Relief looking after these poor little waifs and
Department. These children, when they strays and bring them up as good and
are arrested, are not all criminals, because virtuous citizens will be an immense
numbers of them are children of tender service to the state. Instead of having
years who should not be placed in indus- these children growing up neglected and
trial or reformatory schools, but should be going from vice to crime, becoming inplaced in homes, where they should be mates of our gaols, and becoming a charge
treated aR children are treated in the other on the state for many years, by means
colonies, and in the same way as the Sal- of provisions such as those contained in
vation Army has dealt with this class of this measure we can save the children
children. I have the assent of the gentle- from such a course as that-save both
man who introduced the bill in the other their souls and bodies ; and, therefore,
Chamber to the amendments I intend to anything we can do on these lines we
move. · I intend to propose that the in- should be only too glad to assist in. 0£
spectors under the principal act, who course this bill, like all measures, conare also the inspectors under the board- tains provisions which will be open to
ing-out department, shall have authority • protest fmm hon. members. I should like
to arrest these children and place them more particularly to direct the attention
under a particular control that is best of the hon. member in charge of the bill
suited for their condition. In other words, to clause 11, especially sub-clauses b and
that these children who are not criminals c, dealing with the employment of chilshould not be placed in industrial or re- dren in places of entertainment. It will
formatory schools, but should be placed be seen that in sub-clause b provision is
under the control of families or in the made against any boy under the age of 14,
homes now specially adapted to that ·par- or any girl under the age of 16, being
ticular purpose by the State Children's allowed to take part in any entertainment
Relief Department. There are a number whatever after 10 o'clock at night. A
of amendments which I think are neces- large number of children are employed
sary in order to make this a perfect mea- year after year in taking part in pantosure, but as regards its principle, it is un- mimes, and their attendance is necessarily
doubtedly a step which should have been later than 10 o'clock at night. It may be
taken long ago, and which is absolutely said, "Let these children have a proper
needed in the interests of the numberless rest by going to bed in good time." I
children now wandering uncontrolled in believe that in ninety-nine cases out· of a
the streets of Sydney. I do not intend to hundred these children do really good serrefer to the details of the bill ; that bas vice by bringing means to the family and
been admirably done by the bon. gentle- perhaps keeping the home together, and
man in charge of it sufficiently for all pur- so long as they are properly looked after
poses ; and I am sure that the House will they are not injured in any way, whilst
make a move in the right direction in their parents are benefited by the children
passing this measure, which, though in- being able to take part in these entertaincomplete in itself, will help on the move- ments. Hon. members may say that this
ment in the direction of giving adequate has been recognised in this bill to a very
and 'proper protection to those young chil- great extent because the proviso to clause
dren who are at present waifs and strays 11 says:
.
ViThere it is shown to the satisfaction of the
in the city of Sydney.
that proper provision has been made to
The Hon. A. J. GOULD: I am sure Minister
secure the health and kind treatment of any
that bon. members must all be in accord children proposed to be employed thereat, it
with the principles of the measure. We shall be lawful for the said Minister, anything
4384
Cloildren's Protection Act
[COUNCIL.)
in this act notwithstanding, to grant a license
for such time and during such hours of the day,
and subject to such restrictions and conditions
as he may think fit for any child exceeding seven
years of age, of whose fitness to take part in
such entertainment or series of entertainments
without injury the said Minister is satisfied, to
take part in such entertainment or series of
entertainments.
I object to that provision, because it
would place in the bands of the Ministct·
power to do what we might not ourselves
see fit to do by legislation. What might
be the result of that 1 One minister,
whose opinions were very strict and who
possibly might not have had the same experience of life as another, might say, "I
will not interfere with the law, and yon
shall. not employ any children under 14
years of age in these entertainments."
Another minister might allow it. Then,
again, one theatricalma.nager might obtain
permission for children to appea.r in his
pantomime, but another might be refused;
and in this way invidious distinctions
might be created and dissatisfaction be
caused.
The Ron. Dr. CuLLEN: You must let
somebody decide whether proper provision
has been ma.de !
The Hon. A. J. GOULD : You must
let somebody decide whether proper prqvision has been made for looking after
the children, but I object to its being left
to the Minister to say whether the age
should be7, 9, or 14. We are giving power
to the Minister which we do not take for
ourselves. \Ve say that no child shall be
employed after 10 o'clock at night under
the age of 14-that is the general provision-but we say to the Minister, "You
may alter the law.if you see fit." Would
it not be better to make. provision to
this effect : that the ages should be reduced,
but that the Minister must be satisfied that
adequate accommodation is provided, and
proper care is taken of the children when
they are performing or otherwise engaged
at the theatre. 1£ 7 is the proper age, say
7; but whether a child of 7, 10, or 12
is employed, let the Minister be satisfied
that proper provision is made in the theatre
to secure the health and kind treatment
of the children proposed to be engaged there.
That will take a certain amount of power
out of the hands of the Minister, but
will still leave it within his province to
see that proper care is taken of the children
[The Hon. A. J. Gould.
Amendment Bill.
during the time they are so engaged. That
is a way in which the difficulty can be got
over. It is a difficulty which is felt very
strongly by certain persons in the community, and if we can see our way, without
injuriously affecting the children, to meet
their reasonable wishes in this respect it is
only a proper and right thing for us to do
so. The bon. and learned member, Sir
Arthur Renwick, has suggested that here,
as in the other colonies, the children should
be brought up before special magistrates
and dealt with under special conditions
instead of being hauled 11p before the
police court in the ordinary way. These
are matters with which I entirely sympathise, and if he can frame a new clause in
that direction I feel perfectly sure that it
will have the hearty support of hon. members. We know perfectly well that these
children are not criminal in the first instance. They are, unfortunately, little
waifs and strays, and it is our duty to do
what we can to prevent their being criminals, to prevent their herding and associating with people who are criminals. The
more we remove from these children the
taint of being treated as criminals by constables in uniform, and by police magistrates in the courts, the better it will be
for them-because such treatment must
have an effect on their minds. We do not
want to familiarise them with the practice
of our police courts. 1£ we get over the
difficulty by !t new clause I shall be only
too pleased to give my hearty support to
it.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read the second time.
In Committee:
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3. Any constable may take any child
on whom there is reason to believe that an offence
under the principal act or this act has been
committed, to a place of safety, and a child so
taken to a place of safety, and also any child
who seeks refuge in a place of safety, may be
there detained until the child can be brought
before a court of summary jurisdiction.
The Ron. Sir ARTHUR RENWICK
moved:
That after the word "constable" line 1, the
words ''or any officer appointed under the principal act or this act " be inserted.
The object of the amendment was to enable the officers of the Charities Department, who were the inspectors under the
principal act, to collect these children and
Ohild!ren's Protection Bill.
[25 OcT., 1900.]
place them in the temporary home which
was already provided by the State Children's Relief Department for such cases.
Amendment agreed to ; clause, as
amended, agreed to.
Clause 4. Where it appears to a court of
summary jurisdiction or to a justice of the
peace that an offence under the principal act
or this act has been committed in the case of
5 any child that is brought before them, and
that the health or safety of the child will be
endangered unless an order is made under this
section, the court or justice may, without
prejudice to any power under the principal act,
10 make such an order as circumstances require
for the care and detention of the child until a
reasonable .time has elapsed for a charge to be
made against the person who it appears has
committed the offence, or until such person
15 has been committed for trial or dealt with by
a court of summary jurisdiction, or the charge
against him has been dismissed ; and an order
under this section may be enforced notwithstanding that any person claims the custody
20 of the child.
The Hon. Dr. CULLEN said that there
was a provision in the clause for the temporary safeguarding of a child where an
offence had been committed until the charge
had been disposed of, but it was worded in
a way which would make it rather unworkable. He took it that the meaning of the
words was that., pending the dealing with
the person who had the control of the child,
the court would have !futhority to make
provision for the safe custody of the child;
but if we left the clause stand as it was
worded, it would be until the person had
been committed for trial. That was not
enough, because a long time might elapse.
He suggested that it would be better to
use the words "for the bringing and disposing of any charge against a person."
The Hon. J. M. CREED: I do not object
to that amendment.
·
Amendments (by Hon. Dr. · CuLLEN)
agreed to:
That the words " a charge to be made," lines
12 ancl 13, be omitted, with a view to the insertion of the words " the bringing and disposing
of any charge" in lieu thereof.
That the words "or until such person has
been committed for trial, or dealt with by a
court of summary jurisdiction, or the charge
a?:ainst him has been dismissed" be omitted.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5.
.
•
.
(3) Where a child is brought before a court
of petty sessions under circumstances authorising the court to deal with the child under
the Industrial Schools acts, the court, if it
MonF.y-lenders Bill.
4385
thinks fit, in lieu of ordering the child to be 5
sent to an industrial school, may make an
order under the twentieth section of the
principal act for the committal of the child
to the care of a relation or person named by
the court as therein provided.
10
• The Hon. Sir ARTHUR RENWICK
moved:
That the words "under. the provisions of this
act or the principal act " be inserted after the
word " court," line 3.
These words might seem superfluous, but
they were absolutely necessary in view of
an amendment he proposed to move later
on to bring the act in harmony with the
State Children's Relief Act.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments (by the Hon. Sir ARTHUR
RENWICK) agreed to :
That the words "State Children Relief Act"
be insert,ed after the word." the," line 4.
That the words "be boarded out or" be inserted after the word " child," line 5.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6. ·where a court hn.s power under
the principal act or this act to commit a
child to the custody of any relation or person
named by the court, until it, being a boy,
attains the age of fourteen years, or, being a 5
girl, atta.ins the age of sixteen years, or where
a child is brought before a comt having been
found in any street, premises, or place for a
purpose forbidden by this act, whether or not
any person is charged with an offence in re- 10
spect of the child, the court may, if it think
fit, deal with the child under the Industrial
School Acts in like manner as if it had been
found wandering and not having any proper
guardianship.
15
Amendment (by the Hon. Sir ARTHUR
RENWICK) agreed to:
That the words "deal with the child" be
omitted with a view to the insertion in lieu
thereof of the words, "order the child to be
committed to the' control of the State Children
Relief Board under the "provisions of the State
Chilrtren Relief Act, or to be dealt with."
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 7 to 13 agreed to. ·
Bill reported with amendments ; report
adopted.
MONEY-LENDERS AND INFANTS' LOANS
BILL.
SECOND READING.
The Hon. J. HUGHES rose to move:
That this bill be now read the second time.
He said : I d<:> not wish to take up very
much time in moving the second reading
of this bill, and I may say at once that
if any hon. member wishes to have the
4386
Mol~ey-lenclers
ancl
[COUNCIL.]
debate postponed in order to allow of the
matter being further considered, I shall be,
happy to agree to it. I think, however,·
that it will be better for me to point out
the reasons which have induced me i:o
bring in the bill, and the nature of the
measure itself. This bill is practicallyand I intend it to be actually-an enactment similar to existing enactments of like
nature in England. Two matters are dealt
with by the bill, namely, money-lendersand
loans to infants. These are really one and
the same matter, but since 1892 the
Infants Betting and Loans Act has been
in force in England. Certain sections of
this bill are tak'en from that act and the rest
are almost verbatim-and J shall be very
pleased to make them verbatim-from the
act introduced in 1899 into the English
House of Lords by Lord .Tames of Hereford.
That act was the result of investigations
made by a select committee of the House of
Commons appointed to inquire into the
alleged evils attendant upon the system
of money-lending by professional moneylenders at high rates of interest, or under
oppressive conditions as to repayment.
That committee was appointed in 1897,
and held certain meetings, bnt they were
unable to finish theit· work and were reappointed in 1898. I have the report of
the committee now before me. It states
amongst other things-and I only intend
to read those portions of it which actually
record conditions siinilar to those which
exist with us here-that:
The evidence shews that money-lending transactions frequently owe their inception to misrepresentation of a fraudulent chamcter. The
misleading advertisement or circulars offering to
lend money "without sureties at low rates of
interest," or at " five per cent.," when in fact
the lenders' practice is to require sureties and
the actual rate is five per cent. per month,
equivalent to about sixty per cent. per annum, are
very common. A professional money-lender, after
exposure under different alinsses, will sometimes
resort to such descriptions as "a wealthy capitalist residing in a private house," a "widow
lady," a "bank," a "finance and advance corporation," or even a "bank expressly incorporated under act of Parliament to ad vance money
at a low rate of interest to respectable persons."
The committe!-' also pointed out that:
Although there is little doubt that in some
cases borrowers are aware of the terms on which
they are obtaining the loan, it is established by
the evidence that in many instances they are
not. The promissory· note, bill of sale, or other
document is often so drawn that it is only with
·difficulty that the borrower can discover what
[The Hon. J. Hughes.
bifants' Loans Bill.
interest he is agreeing to pay, and your committee are S!ttisfied that borrowers frequently
sign these documents without knowledge of their
contents. The greatest hardship, however, occurs in the event of a borrower failing to keep
up his repayments to the exact uay, and the
chance of failure is largely incre::tsed by varying
the amount of the instalments or· making the
last instalment much heavier tlmn the others.
Yonr committee consider that in many cases
default is ine1·itable, and that, once a borrower
has obtained a loan from a money-lender, it is
extremely difficult for him to get clear of the
trans[tction. The circumstances are generally
such as to force him to obtn.in renewal after renewal at increasingly extortionate rates until he
is utterly ruined.
These [tre conditions that I will be able to
show the House, from instances within
my own personal knowledge, are actually
in existence in New South Wales. The
committee, after carefully considering the
evidence which was given before them by
certain eminent people in England, say :
Your committee have unhesitatingly come to
the conclusion that the system of money-lending
by professional money-lenders at high rates of
interest is productive of crime, bankruptcy, tiDfair advantage over other creditors of the borrower, extortion from the borrower's family and
friends, and otber serious injuries to the community. And, although your committee are
satisfied that the system is sometimes honestly
conducted, they are of opinion that only in rare
cases is a person benefited by a loan obtained
from a professional money-lender, and that the
evil attendant upon the system far outweighs
the good. They therefore consider that there is
urgent need for the interposition of the legislature with a view to removing the evil.
That is the opinion of the select committee
of the House of Commons, and there is a
very long report upon the subject. I do
not wish to weary the House by quoting
at length from it, but I think I can show
the House that these very things which
the committee mention as having been
brought before them in evidence, as existing in England, are actually existing
amongst us. For the last twenty years I
have l1ad my eyes opened very considerably,
and have kept them open, to the dealings
of this class of people in Sydney. I am
not referring to the money-lenders as a
whole, but to what are called professional
money-lenders, and I am referring to the
behaviour of the worst amongst them. I
know that in some cases it is important to
poor people that they should get a loan even
at a high rate of interest, and, in many instances, it is done to the benefit of every.one concerned, but I am refening to cases
Money-lenders and
[25 OCT., 1900.]
which have come before the court, and
which are still coming before the courts
every day. If bon. members will only
look at the notices of the matters to be
dealt with in the District Court to-morrow
I should be very much astonished if they
did not find, under the heading of ca. set.
applications or garnishee orders, the name
of one man, Booker, figuring in half the
cases. This man, I am informed, was
originally a clergyman-a nice church he
must have belonged to; not that I hold
the church responsible for the vagaries of
its professors. When I first came to know
anything of him he was a clerk to a certain
solicitor in Sydney atabout30s. per weekI don't know how much-and he began
his money-lending transactions as far as I
know, in that office.
He has carried
them on to an extent that, after a very
few years, he is now enabled to deal with
thousands of pounds. Only the other day
we had a case in the Equity Court in
which this gentleman was concerned. It
is not merely through the rate of interest
charged for the money that the unfortunate borrowers are got at, in a sense,
but the charges for renewals for costs and
expenses, and for lawyer's expenses, which
are very often, I am glad to say, not really
expenses charged by lawyers, although, unfortunately, some of these people could not
succeed unless they had the very dregs of
the legal profession to assist them. These
charges are heaped up, and where a man
borrows £20 he ends in finding claims
made against him in a few months totalling
perhaps £200. One case came to my knowledge in which one of these offices with a very
fine name-they mostly have a fine name
-was carried on by a money-lender who
transferred, or pretended to transfer, his
business to a friend or relation, or something of that kind. This man held a lot
of securities, both registered and otherwise, and transferred them, and transfers
in such cases are generally carried out by
one deed; and I know it was so in this
instance, because I saw the deed which
transferred hundreds of securities given
by people in all departments of the city.
Yet wben one unfortunate person for
whom I was acting tried to get out of the
clutches of this man, he found he was
charged a special fee for the transfer of
his particular mortgage, and in many other
cases a similar fee was charged. These fees
•
Infants' Loans Bill.
4387
were never charged by any solicitor-they
were never incurred ; but this was one
means this man adopted to pile up the
charges against the unfortunate borrower.
There is another case embodied in the
records of the Lands Titles Office of the
facts of which I happen to know something. A widow woman wishing to start
a business, and having some little property,
answered some of these fictitious advertisements in which money-lenders offer
money at so much per cent.-omitting
to add the words, "per month." This
lady obtained a loan of £60 to enable
her to start her business, and the security
she had was a cottage valued by Richardson and Wrench only last year at £360.
She might have gone to any bank-even
the Savings Bank-or to any respectable
solicitor, and have secured that advance
for at any rate 5 per cent. per annum;
but she was misled by an advertisement
and went to a money-lender, and on the
3rd July, 1899, she got her £60, and
lodged her deed. She had ·not been in
possession of the money for more than
two or three months when she found that
the rate of interest she was paying ·was
not the rate she thought she was· paying, and she went to a firm of solicitors,
and without the sli~htest difficulty borrowed enough money to enable her to pay
this man. The mortgage was paid off on
the 28th September, 1899, or two months
and twenty-five days after it was executed.
The money-lender must have been asleep
at the time that he did it, but in the discharge which he indorsed on the mortgage
he stated that in consideration of £92 lOs.
he discharged the lady from her liability.
Therefore, apart from the cost of the
mortgage, whatever that may have been,
she paid £92 lOs. for the use of £60 for
two months and twenty-five days.
The Hon. F. B. SuTTOR: That is 200
per cent.!
The Hon. J. HUGHES: It is considerably more than 200 per cent. if the hon.
member reckons it up. The papers in this
case are to be seen by anybody who cares to
go to the Lands Titles Office and pay the
ordinary search fee.
There is another
case which hon. members will doubtless
recollect and which came before·the bankruptcy court very recently. It was in connection with the estate of a well-known
butcher in Sydney who got into difficulties
•
4388
1l1oney-lenders and
[COUNCIL.]
and came before the court. I have a note
here of some of the evidence given by
Mrs. Butte!, the wife of the butcher in
question. She says in her evidence :
"In 1898, our turnover was £26,000. In 1899,
£30,000. I have a pretty fair trade with the
Jewish community. I knew Mr. Isaacs, of the
original Mont de l'iete. I have been borrowing
money from him for over three years on behalf
of the business. I used to pay £5 per month for
£100 borrowed. I don't think my husband ever
knew."
Hon. members will see that Mrs. Buttel
says she does not think her husband evP.r
knew; and the English report which I have
quoted from points out that these moneylenders got at the wives or families of the
people concerned, a.nd not at the persons
themselves. :Mrs. Buttel goes on to say :
I knew he had a dread of anything of that
kind, and it is quite possible that I never mentioned it to him.
I believe that the unfortunate man was at
this time an inmate of a lunatic asylum,
and it was owing to that fact that his wife
had to give evidence. Mrs. Buttel goes
on to say:
At the time of the bankruptcy there was Ol'er
£1,275 clue to Mr. Isaacs for money lent and a
little interest.
Now, see what sort of security il1r. Is11acs
got. Mrs. Buttel says:
My course of dealing with Mr. Isaacs was as
follows :-I would go to him and borrow £100,
giving him as security orders on my best customers, su~h as large institutions and other approved good marks. First of all, I wrote the
orders, but latterly Mr. Isaacs had prepared
them, and I merely signed them.·
This unfortunate woman gave orders for
money that was absolutely good-that was
payable by large institutions-probably
some of the institutions over which Sir
Arthur Renwick presides.
The Hon. Sir ARTHUR RENWICK : Hear,
hear; that is quite true !
The Hon. J. HUGHES: Well, that was
only a shot at a venture, but it hit the mark.
This was practically Government money,
which would be paid at once; and instead
of collecting the money from these institutions, as she might ha.ve done, Mrs.
Buttel gave an order to enable this man
to get this perfectly good money, while at
the same time she was paying him £5 per
month per £100 for the money borrowed.
At the time of the bankruptcy the estate
was indebted to the original Monte de
Piete for £1,275. At the rate I have
[The Hon. J. Hughes.
Infants' Loans Bill.
mentioned the interest on the £1,275
woulci. be something like £765 a year-a
very nice little income for the gentleman
concerned. Another case that came before
me was that of a clerk. Unfortunately it
is clerks or other people with small means
who suffer most from these money-lenders.
This clerk was in ill-health, and it was
absolutely necessary for him to have a
holiday, but he had no means then to take
one. However, he found that he could do
it if he got as much as £16. What did
he do 1 He went to a money-lender and
got £16, at the rate of 30s. per month for
inte1:est. He signed a promissory-note.
payable on demand, and agreed to pay that
interest until he could pay off the debt,
but he could never pay it of!'. All he
could do each time his salary became due
was to pay the interest. The matter went
on for twelve months, and he paid £18 for
interest, but did not reduce the original
loan by· one penny, The interest was
paid every month, and the money-lender
knew that if the borrower did not pay it
he had only to report him to his principal
and he would lose his place. When the
twelve months was up luckily his friends
found out what the trouble was, raised
the money, and paid offthe debt. Another
case-also a case of this Mr. Bookercame before rue under the following circumstances: A man who was in the civil
service, and also occupied the position of
alderm11n in one of the suburban boroughs,
wanted £20. He went to Mr. Booker and
got it, and the security he ga\·e him was a
promissory-note, payable at a short date-I
do not know exactly how long, the accounts
were very complicated, and I could not get
behind certain dates. He got£20, and gave
a promissory-note for £35, backed by three
friends, all closely connected with the
municipality of which he was such a distinguished alderman. The original money
was lent some time in 1896, and in 1\iay,
1896, the money not having been repaid,
Mr. Booker thought it was time that he improved his position, so he sued the maker
of the promissory-note, and also tho three
indorsers-he brought four district court
actions, and obtained four district court
judgments, each for £35 and costs, the
costs amounting on the four judgments to
over £18. I say at once that I do not believe any solicitor got all those costs. I
believe that the solicitor who had the
•
Money-lenders and
[25 OcT., 1900.]
distinguished honor of acting for that
gentleman, whacked the costs with him; at
any rate, the money-lender sued all the four
people who, unfortunately, had their names
on the promissory-note, and got a verdict
for £35 against each of them, together
with costs running from £5 5s. 4d. to
£4 4s., or a total of £18 ls. When this
state of affairs came about, the maker of
the note thought he had better try to defend his friends, and went to the moneylender to see what he could do. In order
to get the matter settled he submitted to
further exactions on the part of the moneylender, and made himself responsible for a
fresh liability amounting to £55 5s. He ha.d
again and again to apply to this moneylender under pressure, and his indebtedness
was always swelling. He continually paid
large sums of money, or they were paid for
him by other people. Finally, I think in
October, 1897, some fifteen months after
the originaloill was given, Mr. Booker proceeded to screw up the most likely party of
the lot. That happened to be my client.
Mr. Booker wrote a letter to each, saying
that he had been very lenient-he omitted
to say that he had got pounds upon pounds
from the unfortunate borrower in the meantime-and that if something was not done
in the way of payment he would take
action. This man cn.me to see me, and I
wrote to Mr. Booker and asked if he would
kindlygiveusanaccount. I wrote on behalf
of most. of the persons concerned and asked
for accounts, and he gave them. These
are the accounts he gave-each one a little
account of over £44, principal and interest,
on the original judgment. At that time
he brought in the original maker of the
note as owing him £41 9s. 6d., and the
three indorsers, £44 lls. 6d., £44 Os. 3d.,
and £43 9s. lOd., or altogether, £173 lls.
ld. on the original loan of £20.
An HoN. MEMBER : He was as bad as
Gordon, who recently died!
The Ron. J. HUGHES: He was worse.
These are facts with which I have become
acquainted in my professional practice.
Mr. Booker proceeded to take out a writ
of ca. sa. against my client in the district
court, and the matter came before Judge
Murray. We tried to get accounts from
him, but the only account we could get
was a statement that £44 was due on the
original judgment. Vl e knew that moneys
had been paid, which, of course, ought to
Infants' Loans Bill.
4389
have been credited to the account, but we
could not get a statement of them. We
represented that fact to the judge-of
course, a ca. sa. matter is absolutely in the
discretion of the judge-and he, I am glad
to say, in December, 1897, promptly refused to make an order, his refusal being
on the ground that we were ·entitled to
get some accounts. Then Mr. Booker,
finding he could not ge·t along until he
gave us some kind of accounts, wrote to
my client a letter, which I may read to
the House. He said :
Whilst not in any way admitting your right
to demand a statement from me of the dealings
and transactions of Mr. - - - with me, I, in
view of Judge Murray's suggestion, that, in order
to make matters clear, such statement should be
furnished to you, now enclose same, but it must
be understood that the same is quite confidential.
Rethought he would cover it up by marking
it 'confidential. This was the document
which he sent along which my client described as a Chinese puzzle, and it is a
Chinese puzzle. It begins with the original
claim, £35, and from the 1st June, 1896,
to the 29th April, 1897, it tots up to
£261 lOs.; and it ends with a statement
of a balance due of £41 9s. 6d. Of course
there are certain cross entries, but on analysing that account, and picking out the
actual payments, I found that in that time
the money-lender had received £61 3s.
from the unfortunate maker of the original
note, and he bad received a good deal of this
money actually before, and was charging
us with principal and interest on a judgment a good deal of which had been preYiously satisfied. When we got this account we declined to pay it, and the moneylender had another shot. He took out a
second summons, and this time the matter
came before Judge Backhouse. We went
into the accounts, and showed this gentleman had really received £61 3s. I may
say that in the meantime, for part payment
of this he levied on the man under a bill of
~ale, sold all his furniture, and got £12 lls.
He credited us with a cheque "on account
promissory-note, £12 lls.," when it really
should have been on account of the sale of
furniture. As I have said, he got £61 3s.,
and had the hardihood to send us an account, most of which had been satisfied.
Judge Backhouse promptly refused to make
an order, and for the second time this gentleman was prevented, but he was not
4390
Jfoney-lenders and
[COUNCIL.]
bifants' Loans Bill.
bE-aten. Such men never are beaten. His
solicitor wrote a letter, saying:
I do not know, and did not want to
inquire into, the details of this case, but it
seems to me reading between the lines,
Some days ago Mr. Booker handed to me all
the papers and correspondence herein with inthat it is very evident the course that Mr;
structions to issue execution. Before doing so,. Booker took in regard to that mattet·.
however, I placed all papers before counsel ancl
\Vhen the borrower came of age he signed'
took his opinion. Acting under his advice I
have issued a writ ofji. fa., but have instructed a mortgage for £1,000 at 36 per cent. He
the bailiff to stay execution for the present with
got only £350, so that is over 100 per
the object of making this communication to you· cent. The mortgage was secured on a life
with a view of a settlement beforeanyunpleasant
policy, and also what w~ts termed in court
proceedings are taken. The full sum now due
to my client on the various judgments amounts a private document. What that may be
to over £30, but without prejudice he is willing
hon. members can easily gur~ss. The matter
to accept the sum of £20 in full settlement, prowas eventually settled on terms that were
vided this sum is paid at once. Failing a settlement on these terms, I will instruct the bailiff not disclosed, but it is stated in the
statement of claim, as published in the
to levy without further delay.
Hemld, that the original loan was for
This money-lender had already put a £350 to a boy under age, and that afterbailiff in and sold off another man's furni- wards, under the pressure of a private
ture, and my client thought it ttdvisable document, or something of that nature,
to settle if he could. I advised him to the money-lender compelled this young
settle, and he offered Booker £5. Booke1· fellow to sign a mortgage when he ca.me
got £5 from each of the three indorsers of of age for £1,000 at 36 per cent. inthe note. Thus Booker obtained in cash terest. So the money-lender was getting
£76 3s for an original Joan of £20, and £360 a year on a loan of £350, which was
kept the original maker of the note still an exceedingly good arrangement for him,
in his clutches, though he had already sold Hon. members know that borrowing
off his household furniture. The money- money is rampant among the civil serlender sent to the maker of the note vants. These money-lenders get hold of
another letter, in which he said :
unfortunate clerks and others who <tre in
As I have not received any offer of settlement tempomry need of money, and lend· it to
eitherfromyourselfor any of your co-debtors, !am them. I know of another notorious gennow compelled to write you finally, and inform
tleman who gets an unfortunate civil seryou that I have instructed my solicitor to levy
vant into his clutches. He makes him a
under judgment, and also to sue you on your
smalllom1 and gets him to sign this docuoverdue promissory-note. I have been compelled to adopt this course owing to your action,
ment:-
and that of Mr. - ·- - , but I have asked him
to write to Mr. Hughes, pointing out my
undoubted legal position, aml that even now I
am prepared to meet you and your friends
amicably, but if'not do not blame me for the
result.
He goes on to threaten him. Those are
the proc.eedings in that case. I have all
the papers here, and any hon. member is
welcome to look at them and see if he can
make head or tail of them. .A.t any rate I
proved in court that for an original loan of
£20 this money-lender got £76 3s. to my
knowledge, besides what he may afterwards
l:iave got out of the original maker of the
note, and he did this in seventeen or
eighteen months. This gentleman turned
up again in the Equity Court the other day.
But I need not refer to that matter-bon.
members will know the case-except to say
that I saw it stated-I think hon. members
will find it in last week's papers-that the
borrower, when an infant, borrowed £350.
[The Hon. J. Hughes.
I, A B, hereby authorise the accountant at
the
office to pay to
, of.
street, Sydney, my salary for the month
of
, and also any other sums or salaries
which may at any time thereafter become due to
me, ancl to consider .Mr.
'a receipt a sufficient dischat·ge therefor. I further declare that
this order shall be irrevocable on my part.
That is the document that clerks and
other public officers are asked to sign, and
the pressure put upon them is that if they
do not pay or submit to the exactions of
the money·lender promptly at the beginning of the month, he reports them to the
Public Service Board, or at any rate
threatens to report them to the board,
which comes to exactly the same thing,
for they know that if they are reported as
borrowing money they will lose their
billets. Finally, I would point out that
the way these gentlemen deal is very well
illustrated by a case that came before the
Full Court on June lst last, and was com-
Money-lencle?·s and
[25 OcT., 1900.]
mented on very severely by his Honor the
Chief Justice. There are lots of people
who are afraid to go to a man who adver·
tises himself as a professional money lender.
The word "money-lender " stinks in their
nostrils, because they know what it really
means; so when they want money they
look down the advertisement columns of
the papers and come to the advertisement
of one of these gentlemen who describes
himself <ts a "widow lady" or something of
that kind. I have a case here of a "widow
lady" who advertises. The "widow lady"
happens to be a loan company. She trades as
the l\iortgage Loan and Finance Company
of Australasia (Limited). This was an appeal from a decision of J uclge Back house to
the Full Court on the lstJ une; and perhaps
hon. members will allow me, without reading the whole of it, to read the remarks of
the Chief J·ustice with regard to how the
thing is managed. One of the conditions
of the borrowing was that there was to be
no registration-nothing that would betray
the borrower's position. However, the
lenders of the money did register ; therefore, the borrower brought an action to
rectify things, and I am glad that for once
the borrower could get equal with the
money-lender. The Chief Justice in delivering judgment said:Now, the next question was whether, as a
matter of fact, this agreement was entered into.
He had no doubt, on the evidence as a whole,
that it was, and that it was made pre,·ious to
the execution of the bill of sale. It appeared
that this company, with a very grand name, was
purely a money-lending institution, and occupied
the first floor of 295 Pitt-street, and it seemed
to have a large number of jackals-for he thought
that was the proper name for them-floating
about various suburbs, who sent down to the
newspapers advertisements offering to advance
money. The defendant company said that they
knew nothing about them, but it was clear that
these advertisements related to the company's
affairs. First of all, there was this advertisement by Fred. McWilliam, the secretary of the
company :-"Letters promptly attended to;
stocks, shares, and money ; strictest privacy;
loans of small or large sums on all classes of
security, including furniture without possession,
deeds, &c., at low rates of interest; easy repayments; hours, 9 to 5; Monday nights. Tele·
phone, 2467. Fred. McWilliam, Equitablechambers, 295 Pitt-street, corner Park-street."
Then came the following advertisement :-"A
loan of money on easy terms ; advances made
from £5 to £500 ; small interest, repayments
weekly, or to suit borrowers; furniture, deeds,
or any security accepted. Call or write Mr.
Aclams, Devonshire House, 4 Flinders-street,.
Darlinghurst, near Oxford-street ; Randwick
Infants' Loans Bill.
4391
tram stops at door; hours, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m."
The third aclvertisement was in these terms:"Money cheaply, quickly, and privately. Lady
with capital will lend to responsible householders on furniture without possession. P.N.'s.
at 10 per cent. ; deeds from 4~ per cent. Mrs.
D., 35 Glenmore-road, Paddington, close Oxfordstreet; hours, 9 to 12 a.m., 1. to 3 p.m., and 6
to 9 p.m." Then there was this advertisement:-" Money lent on furniture without registration. To those who wish to borrow money,
at low rate of interest without the formalities of
loan offices : Cash arlvances made in large and
small sums on furniture without registration
and publicity. Money lent on deeds of land,
farms, C.P. lands, and all kinds of property.
Interest from 4 per cent. No security or loan refused. Cash lent on reversions of interests under
wills. Call or·write to Mr. Bradley, 375 Crownstreet, Surry Hill.'' The· next advertisement
was in the following terms :-"Stocks, shares
and money-W. Wise, private lender, 197 Albionstreet, corner·of Bourke-street, Surry Hills, will
ad vance money at lower interest and easier terms
of repayment than can be had from any loan office.
I advance on furniture, machinery, live-stock;.
Janel, &c. ; will pay out existing loans in other
offices. No registration; no fees ; no delay.
Letters promptly attended to." Plaintiff, seeing
this latter advertisement, and being anxious to
avoid the publicity and loss which registration
would entail, went to Mr. Wise's place of business with the advertisement in his hand, ancl
Wise agreed to make the advance at a charge of
£20 if the security was good, and he promised
that there wonlcl be no registration. Afterwards
Wise took plaintiff to his employers-the defendant company, with the grand name-ancl they
said that the risk was too great without registration, and that if there was to be no registration
the charge would be £30. Upon the plaintiff
remonstrating the defendant company said they
had decided to give the plaintiff an aclditional
three months, and with that promise and the
promise that there would be no registration this
contract was entered into. It was now said that
the persons whose advertisements he had quoted
had no authority from the defendants to negotiate loans for them in spite of the fact that the
advertisements were pasted on a memorannum
headed with the name of the defendant company's office. Then they found that in the first.
instance the receipts for the instalments of £2
per week were given by Mr. Wise in his own
name as a financier. Subsequently, however, he
gave them in the name of the defendant company, and later on the receipts were stamped by
the company. Under these circumstances he was
clearly of opinion that Wise's representations
bound the company and that this collateral
agreement, which was a perfectly good one, was
entered into on behalf of the company, and for
that reason the nonsuit must be set aside and a
new trial granted.
Here we have coming before the notice of
the court only the other day these people
trading under the names referred· to in·
the report of the select committee of the
House of Commons and by these means
4392
Money-lenders and
[COUNCIL.]
they got unfortunate persons into their
hands. I have mentioned· only a few
cases, but I may tell bon. members that I
know many other cases just as bad as
those I have quoted-cases known to me
personally. I have given proof which I
think will justify the House in supporting
the bill. I drafted the bill under some
difficulties as I only had available at that
time the bill as it passed through the
House of Lords. Since the bill has been
in print the Imperial act which was
passed on the 8th August, 1900, has been
received. I only got a copy yesterday,
and I find that in the bill as it left the
Lords, certain amendments were. made
which certainly to my mind-and I have
read the debates very carefully-improved
it. For instance they removed the schedule;
they do not limit the rate of interest, but
make it very clear what the transactions
are that the court can deal with. The
first clause of this hill follows the recommendation of the select committee and
of almost every person of experience who
gave evidence at that inquiry. The recommendation is as follows :After carefully considering the whole of the
evidence and opinions your committee have
.arrived at the conclusion that the only effective
-remedy for the evils attendant upon the system
of money-lending by professional money-lenders
is to give the courts absolute and unfettered dis-cretion in dealing with these transactions. They
therefore recommend that all transactions, by
whatever name they may he called or whate,·er
their form may be, which are in substance transactions with persons carrying on the business of
a. money-lender, in the course of such business
should be open to complete judicial review.
Consequently the 1st clause of this bill proposes that all transactions of professional
money-lenders shall be open to review by the
court. The 2nd clause provides for the registration of money-lenders. The object is to
prevent that sort of thing being done which
is referred to by the Chief Justice in the
case I have just read-to prevent people
being deluded into thinking that they are
dealing with private people when, as a matter of fact, they are dealing with notorious
loan offices. It compels these people lending
money to register themselves in whatever
name they choose to trade under, to disclose who they are. It prevents them from
dealing except under their registered names.
The 3rd clause provides for regulations.
Under the English act the Commissioner
-of Inland Revenue, subject to the approval
[The l:lon. J. Hughes.
Irifants' Loans Bill.
of the Treasury, may make regulations.
Under the bill the Registrar-General, subject to the approval of the Governor, can
make regulations. Of course in this House
I did not think it wise to provide for the
imposition of fees. There is a clause dealing with the fees to be charged, and, if
the bill passes the Council, I shall ask the
hon. member who means to take charge
of it for me in the Assembly to introduce
the clause there. The 4th clause provides
for penalties for false statements and representations. The 5th clause is word for
word section 2 of the Act 55 and 56 Victoria, chap. 4, which is the Betting and
Infants Loans Suppression Act of 1892.
The Ron. Dr. CULLEN : Are the penalties in the English act the same as those
which the hon. member has inserted~
The Ron. J. HUGHES: Exactly the
same. Section 5 of the English act begins with these words :
Where in any proceeding under section 2 of
the Betting and Infant Loans Suppression Act
it is proved, &c.
As that act was not in force here, I had
to enact the section of the English act referred to, and then put the proviso in.
Clause 6, again, is a section of the English act. That is important, because the
intention there is to make it penal to obtain affidavits from an infant. Of course
bon. members know how questions of age
are got over by a very favourite trick with
these people. When they have reason to
believe-even when they know as a matter of fact-that the person wishing to
borrow the money is under age, they ask
him (and possibly that is the private document in the case I referred to previously)
to make a declaration that he is of age.
If they once get that declaration they
have a better security than if they had a
properly-registered mortgage, because if a
person makes a declaration that he is of
age when he is not of age, his infancy
does not protect him from a prosecution
for making a false declaration. So that
the sixth clause provides that if anyone,
except under the authority of any court,
solicits an infant to make an affidavit or a
declaration he becomes liable to a penalty.
The seventh clause, again, is word for word
section 5 of tho Betting and Infants' Loans
Suppression Act, making a contract for
payment of a loan advanced during infancy absolutely void. The other clauses
Money-lenders and
[25 OcT., 1900.]
are practically the sections of the English
act. The 8th clause defines a mo11ey-lender
so far as I can see, by not defining him.
It says:
The expression "money-lender" in this act
shall include every person or company whose
business is that of money-lending, or who advertises or announces himself or holds himself out
in any way as carrying on that business, but
shall not include--
It goes on to exempt banks or ordinary
persons or businesses carried on where the
lending of money is necessary, and we do
not propose to interfere with them. The
schedule to the bill is not included in the
English act. I think it will be better in
Committee to make the bill follow the English act almost word for word. I think I
have said enough to show bon. members
that even in this country there is very
strong reason for some legislative interference with these people who deal harshly
and unconscionably with borrowers. It
is only to these persons I am referring.
It will not affect the actual money-lenders
who conduct their business on reasonable
terms. It only means, that when the court
is satisfied from the evidence given before it
that the transaction in question is harsh
and unconscionable, is wrong as between
man and man, it can reopen the whole
thing and give such a verdict as in its
opinion is a fair one, not to allow the
money-lender to get his pound of flesh. I
do not know that it has been done very
much here, I believe it has been done in
one or two cases. But these things got
such a point in England that the judges
found themselves, by the course of law,
compelled to give verdicts for thesfl exorbitant claims, but they exercised their
right, in the county courts at any rate,
-and it is the same in our district conrts
-to say by what instalments such verdict
should be paid. There are instances where
the judges have given a verdict for the
sum demanded, and directed that it should
be paid by instalments of 6d. per week.
Of course that is only getting out of the
difficulty which the judges found they were
in. I do not know that that has been
done to any great extent here, but I feel
sure that in many cases it would be done
if no other means were taken to remove
what I hope the House will see is a very
grave evil.
Question proposed.
to
13 s
Infants' Loans Bill.
4393
The Hon. W. ROBSON: I think the
hon. member who has introduced this bill
deserves commendation, and if it is passed
will deserve the thanks of the community.
There are some things about the bill which
I do not quite understand the bearings of,
but which seem to me to be somewhat
defective. Clause 8, for instance, says :
The expression money-lender in this act shall
include every person or company whose business
is that of money-lending-
H is pretty well known in the community
that many of the men who advertise themselves as money-lenders are men of strawthat there are others who are behind them.
It seems to me that if it is desirable and
necessary that the agent should be regarded as a money-lender in some way or
other, the real money-lender should be
brought into such a position as to be held
as responsible at any rate as his agent.
It is well understood, and I am sure the
hon. member, Mr. Hughes, knows it to be
a fact, that many of the professed moneylenders in the community are mere agentsthat somebody else is finding the money
which they lend ; and upon them should
rest the responsibility of misdoing as well
as upon the agent himself.
The Hon. J. HuGHES : I see by one of
the English papers that difficulty is got
over by a regulation compelling the moneylender to disclose whose money he lends !
The Hon. W. ROBSON : If· that can
be disclosed by a regulation which this
bill gives power to make, well and good. I
think it is a very important point. It is
quite as necessary that the public should
know who is finding the money which is
lent, as that they should know the moneylender himself. I was hoping that the
'lwn. member would have given some sufficient reasons-! have no doubt there are
reasons, but I think we should have heard
them-why we should have had these
exemptions in the 8th clause, under the
letters a, b, c, and d. I do not quite see
why a body corporate should be exempted
from the provisions of the act. If an incorporated body transgresses in the way
indicated, I think that they should be put
under the provisions of the act just as certainly as the private individual. I hope
to hear some sufficient reasons given for
making these exemptions. These being
satisfactory, I think this is a very desirable
4394
Money-lenders Bill.
[UOUNOIL.J
and very necessary bill, and one which
will confer a large amount of benefit on
the community.
The Hon. J. HUGHES, in reply: I
would like to explain the reasons fot· the
exemptions in the 8th clause; and if the
hon. member, M:r. Hobson, will read the
debates in the English Parliament he will
see that the whole matter was fully
thrashed out. The difficulty of dealing
with a bill of this nature is to provide
merely for the class of people you want to
deal with. The hon. member referred to a
hody corporate. There are bodies cOl·porate here, such as the University of Sydney,
the Sydney Harbour Trust, and others.
The Hon. Dr. CuLLEN : The Trustees of
the !lfiners' Accident Fund !
The Hon. J. HUGHES: These bodies
are entitled to lend money providing that
they are acting under an act of Parliament,
such as these bodies corporate must do.
The Hon. Dr. CuLLEN : You do not
want them to register themselves as moneylenders!
The Hon. ·J. HUGHES: No; if you
did not make such exemptions they would
have to register themselves as moneyhmders. Pawnbrokers are provided for
by the Pawnbrokers Act. There is no
necessity to bring them under this act,
because they are dealt with by their own
act. Then we come to registered societies
within th,e meaning of the Friendly Societies Act. Friendly societies may lend their
funds. Nobody supposes for a moment
that they charge exorbitant rates of interest. The only societies brought under
that act have to submit their rules and
scales of fees to the Hegistrar-General, and
that refers to the building societies.
The Hon. \V. HonsoN : Not the scales
of interest !
The Hon. J. HUGHES: Yes, I think
their scales have to be referred to the
Hegistrar-General. 'fbese societies are
exempted for that purpose. It only refers
to:
Any registered society within the meaning of
the Friendly Societies Acts of 1873 or 1899, or
any registered society, registered or having
rules certified under either of those acts.
The Hon. W. HoBSON : They do not
divulge the rates of interest when they
register !
The Hon. J. HUGHES: That may be,
but they have to show what the object of
[The Hon. W. Robson.
IJu~bo
P. A. and H. Association.
the society is. If the ol~ject of the society
is to help its members by loans on buildings, then under certain sections of the
Friendly Societies Act these companies are
registered. I£ they do not do that they
cannot be registered. If it is simply a
society to accommodate one another with
loans on notes of hand, it docs not come
under the act, and it could not be registered.
It is only benefit societies which can be
registered under the sections of that act.
Possibly, if I explain what the working of
the English act is, it will show the bon.
member what is intended. The exemptions
in section 6 of the act are stated to be : ·
Any registered society within the meaning of
the Friendly Societies Act, 18!16, or any society
registered or having rules certifiecl under sections
2 or 4 of that act, or under the Benefit Building
Societies Act, 1836, or the Loan Societies Act,
1840, or under the Building Societies Acts, 1874
to 1894.
These acts are not in force in this colony,
and the only act which does the same thing
here is the Friendly Societies Act, under
which these societies can be registered.
The exemptions are really made to prevent respectable corporations or individuals that have to lend money in the
course of their business, such as banks,
building societies, insurance companies, and
others, being compelled to register themsalves as money-lending institutions. If
the hon. member, Mr. H.obson, will refer
to the English Hansa1·d, which is now
available, he will find the matter very
£ully thrashed out, better than I can explain it, and will see that the best legal
talent in the Imperial Parliament thought
that the clause ought to be framed in that
particular way.
The Hon. Dr. CuLLEN : When they
begin to lend it will be time enough to
deal with them !
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read the second time and committed
proforma.
DUBBO PASTORAL, AGRICULTURAL, &
HORTICULTURAL ASSOCIATION BILL.
SECOND
l~gADJNH.
The Hon. Dr. CULLEN rose to move:
That this bill be
no~v
read the second time.
He said : ThiR bill originated in, and has
already passed, the other Chamber. It is
cast upon the lines of several acts of Parliament which have been passed for the
benefit of agricultural associations, and
•
Justices Act
l25 Ocr., 1900.]
it is intended to enable the Dubbo association to raise, by ruortgnge, certain moneys,
which are needed, partly for the purpose
of paying off the balance of indebtedness incurred in effecting improvements
to their grounds, and partly for carrying
out certain other necessary improvements.
The evidence before the selecL committee
shows that the n,ssociation possess about
42 acres of land, and that they have
already spent about £5,000 in improvements. The greater part of this has been
paid off, but there is a balance remaining
unpaid of £1,046. Certain other improvements have been found to be necessary,
which will run into about £500 or £600,
and the association wishes to obtain enough
money to pay·offthe £1,046, and to give
them the necessary funds for carrying out
the further impro,·ements to their ground.
For that purpose they now ask the legislature for power to mortgage the ground,
and clause 1 of the bill requires them to
have the written consent of the Secretary
for Lands before any such mortgage is
entered into. Clause 2 obliges them to
hold the money upon trust to pay off the
present liability, and, further, to effect the
other impl'ovements which are necessary.
Clause 3 provides that the Governor, with
the advice of the Executive Council, shall
have the same power~ for the appointment
and removal of trustees as are contained in
the sections of the Crown Lands Act with
'respect to lands dedicated for pnblic purposes. The necessity for the bill will at
once present it~elf to bon. members, and I
leave it in their hands with perfect confidence.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read the second time and reported
without amendment; report adopted.
Amendment Bill.
4395
In Committee (recommittal) :
Clause 8 (Abolition of recovery of fine, &c., by
levy and distress).
The Hon. F. B. SUTTOR thought it
perhaps just as we11 that he should explain
what he proposed to do with the bill. He
proposed to insert a new sub·section in
one of the clauses, because as the law stood
at present whilst magistrates were authorised to impose very large fines-in some
cases even up to £500-the maximum imprisonment they could inflict in the case of
default was only three months. It was now
proposed to provide that the imprisonment in default of the payment of a fine
should be morecommensnrate with the fine
than the maximum penalty which could
now be imposed. In clause 10 he proposed
to inset·t an amendment which would provide that notices of ttppeal should be forwarded to the Clerk of the Peace. The new
clause 18 would provide that no conviction or order of a justice should be set aside
merely by reason of some informality in the
sentence. Supposing, for instance, that a
magistrate sentenced a man to six months'
imprisonment whilst the law only a1lowed
three months' imprisonment, if t.he decision
were a just one, the informality could be
overlooked and the man would still be made
to suffer the extreme penalty allowed by
the law. The new clause 21 would exempt
from the operation of the provision giving
the right of appeal any order for the payment of wages to seamen, or any conviction
for an offence under Part IX of the Seamen's Act. It was desirable that these·
amendments should be made, in order to
simplify the working of the present act.
The Hon. Dr. CULLEN said he had
had an opportunity of looking into all
the amendments mentioned by the VicePresident of the Executive Council; and it
seemed to him that they were all very proper
JUSTICES ACT AMENm'lENT BILL.
amendments to make. The only one which
Tlii~D READING.
looked at all formidable was that which rel\:Iotion ( H on. F. B. SuTTOR) proposed : ferred to the period of imprisonment which
That this bill be now read a third time.
might be inflicted in certain cases. It was
Amendment (by the Hon. Dr. CULLE~) rather startling to .fii..Ld that a magistrate
had the power in certain cases to inflict a
agreed to:
penalty of over £100, but it happened that
That all the words after ''That" be omitted
with a view to inserting the words, " the bill under the Chinese Restriction Act and
be recommitted for the consideration of clauses some other enactments the magistrates had
8 and 10 and the schedule and the consideration power to inflict penaltieH up to £500. It
of propooecl new clauses 16 ancl 21."
was, therefore, necessary that the powers of
Question, as amended, resolved in the the magistrates should be extended and
distinctly defined, so as to enable them to
affirmative.
,l-..; , ..
•
4396
Justices Act
[COUNCIL.]
inflict penalties in keeping with the amount
of the fine in respect tu which a defendant
might be in default. The other amendments were either consrquent or supplementary upon the enactments contained
in the bill, and would either safeguard the
working of the act against some possible
abuse or make it more effective than under
the bill as it was originally passed through
Committee. He thought the Committee
could safely adopt all the amendments.
.Amendment agreed to.
Clause verbally amended and agreed to.
Motion(byHon.F.B.Su·rToR)agreed to:
That the following new sub·clause stand as
sub·clause 3 :
''Where the said amountSu~~t~~~~~d~nll
Does not exceed ten shillings . .. Seven days.
Exceeds ten shillings, but does
not exceed one pound...
... Fourteen days.
Exceeds one pound, but does not
excee.d two pounds
... One month.
Exceeds two pounds, but does
not exceed five pounds
... Two months.
Exceeds five pounds, but does
not exceed twenty pounds . . . Four months.
Exceeds twenty pounds, but does
not exceed fifty pounds
... Six months.
Exceeds fifty pounds, but does
not exceed one hundred pounds Nine months.
Exceeds one hundred pounds ... Twelvemonths.
Any enactment in any past act to the contrary notwithstanding."
.Amendment (by Ron. F. B. SuTTOR)
agreed to:
That the following new sub-clause stand subclause 4 :-"Such imprisonment shall be with
either hard labour or with light labour, as the
justice or justices in and by the conviction or
order adjudge."
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 10. (1) Every person who, for any
offence, act, or omission, has by the conviction or order of a justice or of justices, founded
on this or any other act past or future, been
5 adjudged to be imprisoned or other.vise punished, or to pay any fine or penalty, or to
suffer any forfeiture, or to pay any sum of
money, and every person who, under the provisions of any act past or future, is entitled
10 to appeal against any order of a justice or
justices founded on such act, may appeal
against such conviction or order, provided
that a notice in writing stating his intention
to appeal and the general grounds of such
15 appeal is given by him or on his behalf to the
clerk of the court where conviction or order
was made within seven days from the making
of such conviction or order; and the said clerk
shall at once send to the prosecutor, or other
20 party, a copy of such notice;
Provided, howe,•er, that there shall be no
appeal against an adjudication to imprisonment for failure to comply with an order for
[The Hon. Dr. Cullen.
Amendment Bill.
the payment of mon_ey, !or the finc~ing of ~
sureties, for the entermg mto recogmsances 2:>
or for the giving of security.
(5) Upon r'eceipt of ;nch ~10tic~ of ~p­
peal, the clerk of the court shall forthwith
inform the justice or justices who made the 30
conviction or order, or, in their absence, any
other justice or justices, of the same, and he
or they shall then and there deter~ine the
amount in which the appellant and h1s surety
or sureties are to be bound by recognisance 35
or which he is to deposit in respect of the
costs of the appeal under the· provisions of
the next following section, if in his or th~ir
opinion the sum of ten pounds would be Illsufficient or excessive for that purpose ; and 40
such clerk shall inform the appellant of such
determination and shall also transmit the
conviction or order to the court where the
appeal is to be heard, there to be kept among
the reco1·ds of such court.
.
45
.Amendments (by Ron. F. B. Su•rTou)
agreed to:
That after the word " the," line 19, the following words be inserted :-" clerk of the peace
and to the."
That the words " court where the appeal is
to be heard, there," lines 43 and 45, be omitted
with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words:-" clerk of the peace."
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
.Amendments (by Ron. F. B. SuTTOR)
agreed to:
That the following new clause stand after
clause 15 :-"No conviction or order of any
justice or justices shall be qu~shetl, set a~iue, or
avoided on appeal under tins act, or m any
proceeding in the Supreme Court, merely by
reason of some omission or mistake in the form
of the conviction or order, or for any error in
law in the sentence imposed or order made, if it '
appears to the court that sufficient grounds
were in proof before the justice or justices who
made the conviction or order to have authorised
a conviction or order free frcm such omission,
mistake, or error; but the court may, upon such
terms as to costs as it thinks fit, amend the
conviction or order, and adjudicate thereupon
as if no such omission, mistake, or error had
existed, or may remit the case to the justice or
justices to pronounce such judgement and sentence, or make such order as is authorised by
law, and to amend the conviction or order
accordingly."
The following new clause stand after clause
18 :-"Nothing in this act shall afftlct the provisions of section 119 of the Seamen's Act, 1898,
or give any right of appeal 11gainst an order for
the payment cf wages, or of any sum recoverable in the same manner as wages, under the
said act, or against a conviction for an offence
under Part IX of the said act."
That the following words be adrled to the
schedule:-" No. 51, 1899, Justices (Fines) Act,
1899, section 3."
Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Bill reported with further amendments ;
report adopted.
Ad,jowrnment.
[25 OcT., 1900. J
ADJOURNMENT.
EARLY-CLOSINQ AMENDMEN1' BILL-I:\'DUSTRIAL
ARBITRATION BILL,
Motion (Ron. F. B. SuTroR) proposed :
That this House be now adjourned.
The Ron. H. C. DANGAR: I desire
to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council if he can give the House
any information in regard to the intentions of the Government with reference
to the Early-closing Bill. I have two
reasons for asking this question. One is
that I should like to know whether it is
at all likely that the Early-clot;ing Bill
will be proceeded with next week, and
the other is whether there is any chance
of the Government proceeding next week
with the Industrial Arbitration Bill, which
I presume, will be set down for discussion
~ext week, inasmuch as I see that there
is no business on the paper for vVednesday
next.
The Ron. F. B. SuTTOR : All these
orders of the day will go over !
The Hon. H. C. DANGAR : I am
aware that all the orders of the day not
proceeded with to-night will go over to
Wednesday next ; but I am particularly
anxious to know what are the intentions
of the Government with regard to the
Early-closing Bill,·becauso upon their intentions with regard to that bill depends
proceeding with the Industrial Arbitration
Bill. Of course, I cannot compel the
Vice-President of the Executive Council
to give information if he is not disposed to
give it, but I think it will be valuable information for us to know whether the
Industrial Arbitration Bill is to be proceeded with on Wednesday next. Though
anything debatablf.), so far as tho Earlyclosing Bill is concerned, may be considered to have been passed, so far as
regards the action of this House, still it is
possible that if that bill were proceeded
with on vVednP.sday next it might occupy
a good deal of time. Therefore it is highly
desirable that we should know what the
intentions of the Government are with
regard to that bill, inasmuch as their intentions in regard to that measure, as I have
said, might affect proceedings in connection with the Industrial Arbitration Bill.
I do not hesitate to avail myself of this
opportunity to say that next week several
hon. members will probably be absent
from this Chamber under circumstances
Early-closing Bill, &:c.
4397
which will be within the knowledge of
most bon. members, and to which, therefore,
I need not further allude ; and I should
like to take this.opportunity in all seriousness to say that if it is the intention of
my friend to proceed with the Industrial
Arbitration Bill this session it is highly
undesirable it should be proceeded with in
the absence of certain bon. members from
the House. I regard that bill as being
of such serious import that I think one
might almost be justified in moving for a
call of the House if it is the intention of
the Government to proceed with that bill,
and I need hardly say that., as far as my
opinion goes-I do not know whether it
is shared by bon. members-it is a matter
that should not be undertaken except with
the very fullest attendance that it may be
possible to get to discuss this important
question. At any rate, I ask the VicePresident of the Executive Council to give
us some information in regard to the Earlyclosing Bill, because upon that information
will depend the conclusions we may be able
to draw as to the intentions of the Government in regard to the Industrial Arbitration Bill, and it is important that we and the
country should know what are the intentions of the Go,·et·nment in this regard.
The Ron. F. B. SUTTOR, in reply: I
have very much pleasure in giving my hon.
and learned friend as much information as I
can in regard to the matters to which he
has alluded, but I would point out that
the business-paper next Wednesday will
not be destitute of many measures. For
instance, the Supreme Court Procedure
Bill and the Early-closing Bill will go over
to Wednesday, and the Industrial Arbitration Bill will he on the paper; the Defamation Bill and the Navigation Amendment Bill will also be t!:tere. Therefore,
there will be six or seven or eight measures
ofimportanceon the paperfornext·Wednesday. Thehon.merober asked the intentions
of the Go,•ernment•in regard to the Earlyclosing Bill. I have not had an opportunity of
discussing the matter with my colleagues.
since last night; but we did think that the
amendment carried in that bill-affecting
persons who carried on business and did
not employ assistants to help them-very
materially affected the bill, and we did not
think that we could agree to the bill being
sent from this Chamber with that amendment incorporated in it. Whether I am
4398
Settlement Leases :
[ASSEMBLY.]
to go on with the bill as it is at present I
am not in a position to say. In regard to
the Industrial Arbitration Bill, I can assure my hon. and learned friend that no
person admits the importance of the measure more than I do, and in answer to him
I may say that it is not at all likely the
Government will ende::tvour to take a
snatch victory on such a measure. I believe the second reading of the bill will be
moved on W edncsday next. If I go on
with the Early-closing Bill on that day we
may perhaps get through with it by the
dinner hour; but whether that will be
proceeded with first, or after the second
reading of the Industrial Arbitration Bill
has been moved, I cannot at this moment
say. I hope that bon. members will allow
me the privilege on Wednesday of fixing
the business as I may determine, and if it
be considered desirable after my speech
on the second reading of the Industrial
Arbitration Bill that there should be an adjournment of the debate for a week, I shall
not have the slightest objection to agreeing
to an adjournment of the debate.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
House adjourned at 9·28 p.m.
'th.sembl~.
25 October, 1000.
iLtgislatibt
Th~wsday,
Questions and Answers (Settlement Leases: Central Diri·
sian-Crown-street Tram wny-G nng Systeru-Hi ndoos
as Dairymen-Employment : Trndcs-unionists- Ac-
counts: Darling Harbour Resumptions-Department
·of Justice--Railways : Wages of Gangers-Amend·
ment of Libel Law-Infringement of Weighing Clauses
-City Railway Extension-Death of James DawsonJ..~eichhnrdt
Electric Tramway- Pensions : H.etircd
Public Set·vants)-Papers-Phillip l'lLrk-Aibert Burhnni;-Pnrlinmcntary Elections Bill-Employment in
connection with Fedcml Celebrations-Tramway ~:m­
ployees-Public Officers and the CommonwealthElectors' Rights-Mednls for Sen·icc in South AfricrLMining Bills- Registration of Enr·marks-IIours of
Labour on Ferry nnd Tug'Boats-Third ReadingsGeneration of Electricity for City Lighting-Weir,
Nymng Creek-Hour of Meeting-Sydney HrLrbour
Trust Bill- Pacific Cable Enabling Bill (second
reading).
Mr. SPJ,AKEU took the chair.
SETTLEMENT LEASES : CENTRAL
.
DIVISION.
Mr. GILLIES (for Mr. MACDONALD)
asked the SECRETARY FOR LANDs,-(1.)
[The Hon. F. B. Suttor.
c~ntral
.Division.
Will he, before throwing open the central
division leaseholds for settlement lease occupation, take some steps to prevent men
who already hold large areas of land competing on equal terms at the ballot with
applicants who do not own any land 1 (2.)
vVill he take steps to prevent persons who
have already exercised their right of selection and disposal of their holdings, from
competing in the ballot on equal terms
with persons who have never !teld land
before 1 (3.) Will he bring in an amending bill to reduce the maximum area for
settlement lease from 10,240 acres to an
area sufficient to maint~tin a home thereon,
so that persons who own no land may have
a better chance of getting some 1
Mr. HASSALL answered,--The importance of the considerations which have
prompted the hon. membet· to make these
suggestions is fully recognised, but I hav'e
no power under the law to prevent any
person making an application, and the
legislature, when theCrownLands(Amendment) Act, 1899 (No. fi1 of 1899), was
under discussion, vested in local land boards
the privilege of determining the priority
of conflicting applications, and the right
to send to ballot such applications as, in
their opinion, have equal claims to priority.
I, however, arranged a conference of as
many chairmen as could conveniently attend, and it was arranged that,· other
qualifications being equal, an applicant
who does not possess pastoral or agricultural lands should have priority over one
who does, and that applicants who have
made conditional purchases or conditional
leases, and dispossessed themselves of the
same, should be generally considered less
eligible than those who had not done so.
Following' these principles, it would seem
that a land board might refuse to allow an
applicant to go to ballot who, in the
board's opinion, had a sufficient area
already. I will inquire from the boards·
whether these rules are Jeparted from, and
the matter will be carefully considered in
connection with any new legi~lation. The
question-vVhat m·ea is suiiiciPnt for a
selector 1-is one on which diverse views
are expressed ; but while it has to be admitted that, if 5,120 acres are sufficient in
a particular case, the holder of t.hat area
shonld not be entitled to obtain a lense of
a similar <~rea; the curtailment of the
maximum area of 10,240 acres for a settle-