EXHIR~T 1 7, Grand Jury Testimony of DAVID PROTESS

G~~a/
IN THE CIRCUIT COURTOF COOKCOUNTY,
CHIC4GO,
ILL~MOIS
ALSTORYSIMON,
Petitioner,
VS.
PEOPLEOF TNE STATEOF ILL.,
PETITIONER'S SUPPORTINGAPPENDIX
CONTAINING:
EXHIR~T1 7, Grand Jury Testimony of DAVIDPROTESS
d
1
IN RE:
JOHN DOE INVESTIGATION
GJ
7
NO.
363
BEFORETHE GRAND
JURYOF COOKCOUNTY,
FEBRUARY,
1999
10
11
12
TRANSCRIpT OF TES`TIMONyTAKENIN
THEABOVE
ENTITLED
MATTER
ONFEBRUARy
22~
1999.
13
14
PRESENT: MR~THOMAS
GAINER
ASSISTANT
15
STATE'S
ATTORNEy
16
17
REPORTEn
gy JOSEPH A. SZYBIST,
CERTIFIED
18
ILLINOIS
19
20
LIST
21
DAVID
22
23
24
OF
WITNESSES:
PROTESS
SHORTHAND
REPORTER
LICENSE NO. 084-1752
1
2
THE FOREPERSON:Would you raise
hand.
(Witness
4
MR. GAINER: Ladies
5
Jury,
6
Gainer.
I am Assistant
7
duly
and gentlemen
State's
Attorney
sworn.)
of the Grand
Thomas
This is Grand Jury 363, February, 1999,
8
which is a John Doe investigation
9
shooting deaths of Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green
10
which
11
12
your right
occurred
August
15,
relating to the
1982.
We are not seeking
an`indictment
at this
time.
13
The Grand Jury does have the right
to
14
subpoena and question any person against whomthe
15
State's Attorney is seeking a Bill of Indictment,
16 1) or any other person, and to obtain a~d examine
17
18
documents or transcripts
being prosecuted by the State's
19
20
21
relevant
DAVID
having been first
testified
as
and
follows:
23
MR. GAINER:
Sir,
Attorney.
duly sworn, was examined
EXAMINATION gy
Q.
matter
PROTESS,
22
24
to the
any
would you state
your name and spell
1
your
last
name.
A.
David
Q·
By whom are you employed?
4
A.
Northwestern
5
Q·
In what capacity?
6
A.
As a journalism
7
Q·
Howlong have you been so employed?
8
A'
Eighteen
Q.
Where did you take your undergraduate
11
A.
Roosevelt
12
Q·
And your post -- youl,work after
2
3
9
10
Protess,
P-r-o-t-e-s-s.
University.
professor.
years.
work?
University.
your
13 ~ undergraduatewolkafter your bachelor,s degree,
14
where
did
you
take
that?
15
A.
University
16 11
Q.
What degree do you have frbm the
17
University
of Chicago.
of Chicago?
18
A.
A Ph.D.
19
Q·
In
20
A.
In public
21
Q·
You've been employed as a professor
22
what?
policy.
Northwestern University.since
23
A.
1981.
24
Q.
Are you now a full
at
what year?
professor?
.I-~(-~·
;r-··
:tp,
~I~
1
A.
Yes,
2
Q·
And in
3
A.
The
4
Q·
How long
have you been teaching
6
A.
Eighteen
years.
7
Q.
Have you held
any jobs
outside
as a college
professor
since
S
I
am.
what
school
Medill
School
employment
9
gotten
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
What?
12
A.
I was a professor
1) at
Loyola
University
for
14
Q.
During
15
A.
1974
to
16
Q·
Any
other
17
A.
I was research
Government
19
'20
Q·
in that
what
--
of your
you've
of Chicago?
of golitical
science
3 years.
years?
1973
to
1976.
jobs?
Association
director
between
Anything
else
outside
Yes,
5 years
at
1976
of
the
Better
and 1.981.
the
field
of
academics?
21
A.
22
editor
23
Magazine.
24
Journalism.
your Ph.D. from the University
10
18
of
school?
8
13
do you teach?
for
and staff
Q·
Was that
writer-at
during
I was contributing
Chicago
the
time
Lawyer
you were
: . :_·.a4-
1
professor
at
Northwestern?
2
A.
Correct
3
Q·
Any other
4
of
your
5
6
Other
different
Q.
as
than
news
Northwestern
9
Journalism
Northwestern?
for
as
a professor
'99,
School
school
at
of
year,
is
that
correct?
That's
12
Q.
Northwestern
11 system
4
that
Correct
16
Q·
That
17
class
18
in
"20
fall
University
the
academic
is
on --
year
broken
a student
dould
is
on a
down into
quarters?
A.
19
correct
has
15
21
course
articles
Medill
1998,
A.
14
the
no.
University
11
13
at
free-lance
employed
during
during
professor
organization,
You were
8
10
employment
employment
A.
7
.
in
the
the
is
to
fall,
spring
a class
and
a class
A.
That's
Q.
Were you
quarter
in
in
the
the
takea
winter,
a class
summer?
correct.
of
I
say
teaching
classes
during
1998?
22
A.
was.
23
Q-
How many classes
24
A.
One.
were
you teaching?
the
The name of that class?
Q·
1
A.
It was a special topics
course
called
The NewsMediaand Capital punishment
3
4
6
8
class
commence?
Q·
When did that
A.
Q~
On September 28~ 1998,f
the
What was the end
A.
It was the second weekof
Q·
you don't recall
A.
No.
the
term?
exact
December-
date?
Q· Okay·How
manystuden~se"lolled
10
for
that class during that quarter?
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q·
I believe
16.
Amongthose
students
WaS Shawn
enrolled?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Tom McCann?
A.
Yes.
Q·
Cara Rubinsky?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Erica LaBorgne?
A.
No.
Q·
SyandeneRhodes-Pitts?
A.
No.
Q·
Lori D'Angelo?
Armbrust
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q·
would you tell
3
of this
4
YOU were
5
6
Grand Jury
teaching
A.
It
exactly
covered
for
and gentlemen
what this
what
class
did
it
basically
2 subject
the
annual
first
areas.
national
conference
8
penalty
9
Law School from November 13th to the 15th,
students
11
conference.
on wrongful
which is
13
14
15
convictions
to be held
had various
at
secondly
and the death
the Northwestern
assignments
And then
that
cover?
7
12
related
students
and the
to that
were to
choose a case involving a possible miscarriage
justice and engage in preliminary investigative
reporting
work
about
that
16
Q·
Who wrote
17
A.
I
18
Q-
How many years
of
1998
'20
21
had
the
curriculum
you
prior
taught
this
was the
first
Q.
And you mentioned
23
in the course
24
exactly
cases
were
ior
this
class?
did.
This
certain
of
case.
A.
22
~.·-
ladies
entailed,
One was planning
10
19
the
that
students
of this
class.
to the
fall
quarter
class?
time
that
could
it
was taught.
there
study
were
or review
How many cases
there?
i:
:
1
A.
Four.
2
Q.
And
3
A.
Okay.
4
Q·
--
5
A.
were
are?
One was the case involving
involved a case of a Kankakee womannamed Nancy
was a case
another
Rish,
R-i-s-h.
Maybe
there
death
involving
row prisoner.
I am forgetting
were
only
Q-
Well,
if
A.
Yeah.
Q·
You think
Aaron
the
A third
fourth
one.
three.
you
think
of` it,
just
let
us
know.
1)
14
15
16
A second
Anthony
8
13
fourth
)1
17
this
19
one
you
Right.
Q·
When did
may have
been
four.
The
remember?
you prepare
the
curriculum
for
class?
In
the
spring
approved
by faculty.
since
hadn't
it
Q·
four
there
can't
A.
A.
22
24
cases
Patterson,
12
23
those
7
11
21
of
Porter.
10
'20
or
names
6
9
18
the
cases,
A.
to
It's
been
When did
be
of
1998.
a special
offered
youpick
the
The Anthony
subj ect
Porter
It
had
to
topics
be
course
before.
these
cases,
matter
case
of
I didn't
three
the
or
class?
pick
1
until
after
2
were ongoing
3
engaged
in investigative
4
classes
but
5
News Media and Capital
Punishment.
6
doing
the
of another
7
teach
called
8
not
in
That's
11
Q·
How did
12
A.
I got
13
from a death
titled
They had been
class
that
I
Porter
case
came to your
1998?
correct.
it
come to
a call
penalty
14
Futorian.
15
Daniel
Sanders,
16
Porter's
case,
17
interested
18
some very
interesting
19
innocence
and
She said
your
lawyer
that
Labor Day
in Chicago
named Aviva
she was consulting
Anthony
Porter's
lawyer
and was wondering
in investigating
his
attention?
shortly:after
if'I
with
on
had
--
what she thought
issues
about
his
be
was
possible
competency.
Q.
And you had that
22
A.
Shortly
23
Q·
Was it
24
class
Journalism.
of
A.
in previous
particular
Investigative
cases
had already
reporting
this
September
The other
Students
as part
10
21
21st.
So the Anthony
attention
'20
the
projects.
work
Q·
9
September
conversation
with
her
when?
it
occur
in
person?
after
Labor
a telephonic
Day.
conversation
or
did
10
1
A.
She called
2
3
As far
she
on
the
Yes.
5
Q·
And did
7
A.
weeks
14
I did
after
meet
with
to discuss
not
--
but
you and
her
the
to
A.
No,
take
was scheduled
take
it
agreed
Did you agree
conversation
11 couldn't
but
I had already
Q-
12
13
was just
after
case
further?
10
11
you ever
phone conversation
8
9
it
phone?
A.
that
phone.
as you know,
4
6
me on the
on the
the
was several
to
take
the
telephone
case?
I had to
say
that
the
case
because
for
September
I probably
his
the
execution
23rd,
way I'd be able to conduct an investigation
16
beto
17
scheduled
my students,
to come back until
18
Q·
When did
19
A.
When I learned
20
that
21
on
Anthony
September
Q·
22
23
24
name
of
A.
and they
Porter
you decide
through
had gotten
would
weren't
September
to
death
and the only
15
involve
case.
take
the
the
28th.
case?
the news media
a stay
of execution
21st.
Do you know a Ph.D. in psychology
Kurt
by the
Moehle?
I don't
know him personally.
I think
he
ill;
al-
11
1
was
retained
by
the
to
give
2
Q.
Okay.
3
A.
--
4
Q.
But
5
A.
No.
6
Q.
Never
7
A.
No.
8
Q.
So at
9
10
the
stay
case,
of
you
12
Q·
What
with
respect
14
A.
15
students
16
(1 interested
opinion
about
--
him?
him?
some
point
after
then
you
you
learned
agreed
to
of
take
this
correct.
is
to
The
the
the
on the
in
first
we were
18
fall
quarter
and
documents
Before
with
21
A.
No.
22
Q·
Did
possession
A.
I
going
did
was
did
to
then
were
they
work
on during
you
that,
did
the
case?
to
ask
as'one
people
did
to
this
several
respect
you
you
day of class
investigating
cases
Q.
thing
thing
four
19
first
case?
first
17
24
expert
correct?
That's
23
--
know
execution
A.
'20
an
don't
met
11
13
defense
of
the
the
volunteered.
have'anything
in
you
obtain
any
your
--
Yes.
I
am
sorry.
I
did.
Because
as
a
12
1
result
2
had
3
since
4
innocence
5
these
kinds
of
6
named
Offie
Green,
7
victim
in
8
Anthony
Porter's
9
provided
the
10
guess,
11
Board
of
my
asked
her
I've
the
I
15
documents.
17
11
Q.
document
the
case,
So
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
Before
did
21
A.
I
22
Q.
At
23
transcript
24
the
trial
of
had
murder
belief
in
recently
that
Prisoner
was,
I
Review
of
that
affidavit,
interesting,
than
fairly
that,
no
statement
other
was
the
first
received?
you
you
started
get
any
believe
some
certain
Anthony
woman
female
affidavit
copy
Green's
don't
of
a
other
you
the
Illinois
me
Offie
'that
an
affidavit
But
a
hearing.
fared
the
and
the
clemency
follow
that
of
was
an
a long-standing
with
to
its
September,
mother
had
as
usually
said
I
issue
case
know,
innocence
18
c 20
this
you
Futorian,
innocence
She
defense
found
compelling.
of
I,
Miss
the
things.
submitted
14
16
and
She
11 and
what
heard
case
in
with
about
never
12
13
conversation
point
your
other
class
that
documents?
so.
did
testimony
you
obtain
that
a
was
given
at
Porter?
-:··::·i~ -~-·;:l~u
13
1
A.
Yes, but
3
Q-
How much after
4
A.
About
5
Q·
Where did
6
A.
Daniel
7
Q·
Mr.
8
A.
Correct.
9
Q·
What exactly
A.
No, because the students
2
11
first
12
Sander's
11 they
could
the
11
18
'20
21
that
22
on the
23
affidavit?
24
get
At this
point
Q·
What
A.
Shawn Armbrust,
A.
from?
do you recall?
got it.
to
My
Mr.
to read all of the pleadings
A.
first
that
to them were.togo
their
How many students
and
two.
did you get,
case?
Q·
or
started?
lawyer?
Porter
McCann,
the class
you get
Porter's
possibly
Anthony
17
19
the class
Sanders.
office
Q·
15
a week
instructions
14
16
was after
started.
10
13
that
were
Lori
hands
signed
I believe
their
that
on.
up to work on
i;
was four.
names?
Cara Rubinsky,
Tom
D'Angelo.
And the only documents you gave them
day of class
Anthony
Porter
Actually
when they agreed
case
would
be Offie
I didn't
give
them the
to work
Green's
14
1
document.
I read
2
my initial
description
3
angle
4
possible
to
explore
Q-
the
it
case
investigatively
On that
first
to
them
in
as a possible
about
meeting
understand
that
the
class
7
afternoons
from
3:00
to
8
A.
That's
9
Q·
On that
September
11
the
his
did
meets
6:00
--
we now
on Monday
p.m.?
correct
first
Monday
were
you the
only
No.
I spent
about
afternoon
person
in
that
addressed
class?
12
A.
13
class
14
four cases
that
15
during
quarter,
going
1( hall
the
where
the
over
the
45 minutes
syllabus
with
and outlining
we were gonna possibly
there
so-called
18
19
I described
of
6
10
17
and
innocence.
5
16
it
and
then
was going
Ford
And who addressed
A.
It
the
investigate
to
a lecture
to be a ~ublic
Heights
Q·
we went
Four
the
forum
on
case.
your
class
that
afternoon?
'20
21
250
people.
22
university-wide
23
who moderated
24
Warden,
the
wasn't
This
just
was
event
a panel
coauthor
my class.
It
was
about
a pre-planned
hosted
by my dean,
discussion
of a book
with
that
Ken Bode,
me, Rob
we had
just
15
1
published
2
Ford
3
the
4
Adams.
called
Heights
Ford
5
meet
Four
Promise
case,
Heights
Q·
6
The
and
Four,
Thereafter
did
successive
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
For
approximately
9
A.
No,
we
10
Mondayfor
11
Q·
13
three
11
14
15
required
16
Monday
17
the
on
Yes.
Q.
And
to
so
be
19
do
reporting,
yourself
23
quarter
24
Kenny
your
class
I
more
Mondays
--
meetings?
almost
every
·of
a
lecture
for
all
class
of
from
your
students
3:00
to
~September
the
released
them
because
of
from
it
6:00
unt'il
exception
was
were
so
p.m.
on
December?
a
couple
they
of
could
becoming
very
consuming.
Q.
22
of
meeting?
with
that
21
and
did
consist
from
sessions
time
--
two
on
that
in
Yes,
their
members
Williams
your
class
afternoons
A.
the
the
quarter.
each
18
'20
met
entire
Did
A.
of
about
Mondays?
the
hours
Justice
two
Dennis
on
12
Of
Were
who
of
A.
there
any
addressed
1998?
I
don't
recall.
·the
other
class
lecturers
during
besides
the
fall
16
1
Q.
2
students
3
was
4
review
The
first
who
to
signed
contact
the
pleadings
A.
That's
6
Q·
Did
transcripts
8
10
shared
that
I
12
A.
No.
Q·
Do
11
14
connection
15
your
16
the
17
connection
A.
interview
No,
23
the
24
thing
have
any
your
have
I
which
do
and
was
could
of
any
file
Northwestern
me,
but
nothing
possession.
on
`this
records
case?
that
of
you
this
your
students
made
class
students
in
or
or
interv~iewed
any
of
in
investigation?
of
have
but
I
my
from
be
memorandum,
office
to
with
of
copies
you
would
his
back
teaching
any
memoranda
A.
students
you
their
21
22
a
with
Do
to
to
yourself?
in
have
your
Q·
Porter
possession
them
kept
that
(20
your
transcripts?
them
with
I
go
pleadings
of
with
people
and
you
interview
18
19
any
and
Do
Anthony
take
brought
copied
Q·
13
ever
several
11
instructed
for
and
you
They
and
you
correct
or
A.
9
up
Sanders
5
7
thing
the
them
led
to
turning
I
all
fall
with
easily
a
get
my
students
quarter,
you
believe
over
have
of
today?
that
their
my
own
package
to
yes.
of
you.
copies
the
entire
of
17
1
Q.
2
Your
student
students
we talked
--
to
today
3
A.
Oh.
4
Q.
--
5
A.
Okay.
Q·
Tell
7
A.
The memorandum
8
interviews
that
9
competency
which
10
they
to
11
meaning
12
meant,
6
13
)1
1( the
posed
of
15
interviews
16
that
17
Washington
they
of
such
that
went
and
20
everything
21
to
thoroughness
22
package
23
have.
the
of
they
file
and
with
Q.
questions
about
and 'what
trial
that
the
IQ scores
documents
that
were
testimony
experiences
the
as
the
cri;ne
in
of
and
such
reenacted
from
Porter's
field
conducted
My evaluation
the
Mr.
be.
field
time
in
Park.
18
19
would
about
field
so
that.
be everything
as the
they
about
would
the
the
to
do that,
involved
in
first
memorandum
IQ tests
witnesses,
they
did
the
not
more
those
largely
analysis
least
did
talk
me what
experts
pleadings,
various
we can
various
to
14
24
so
at
a
do
Can you
their
their
them
they
turn
memo
to
make
work
reporting,
requires
then
cover
of
me,
an estimate
and
to
in
is
write
the
and
on
so
a
memo
entire
that's
of
based
what
how many
I
18
1
pages
this
2
file
A.
3
I
longer
than
say
in
the
others,
4
Q·
You
5
A.
No.
6
students
7
8
I
9
contained
10
position
11
testimony
12
to
13
11
to
in
I
14
Q.
--
15
A.
Okay.
16
Q.
So
18
students
19
·20
A.
which
first
It
was
is
we can
have
the
was
interested
22
have
in
23
talked
about
24
wanted
to
a lunch.
hear
I
about
own
knew
memos.
likely
than
not
and
so
continue
ask
you
with
how they
in
come
a
back
records?
you
had
your
to
September
invited
what
your
project
the
time
are
those
had
I
about
to
meet'ing
on
on
we
with
this
that
my
more
where
at
thought
of
first
working
And
what
I
much
been
a Wednesday,
21
today?
because
you
have
pages.
too
assigned
would
little
50
their
to
meeting
you
to
reviewing
was
a
apologize.
continue
what
after
them
documents,
may
to
was
40
bring
about
those
but
the
I
to
now where
is
about
apologize
talk
Okay.
when
I
it
bring
going
A.
17
case
Again,
And
wanted
this
didn't
were
Q·
comprised?
them?
30th,
anyone
Porter
case
who
to
we basically
the
felt
case,and
about
I
possibly
·-~~pi
19
1
working
2
prisoner
3
their
on a project
like
this
could conceivably
where,
die during
Q·
Were there videotapes
6
A.
No.
7
Q.
Audio
8
A.
No.
9
Q·
Did you take notes,
10
A.
No.
11
Q·
What's
of that meeting
with
these
1/
A.
tapes?
you personally?
the next meeting
you then had
students?
The next meeting
I had would have been
14
at a lecture
15
mean as a group,
16
the Northwestern Law School the following Friday,
17
I
Q·
early
it would have been at the --at
That
is
the
meeting
that
occurred
in
October?
'20
21
22
Monday. But if you
believe.
18
19
the following
A.
Correct.
Q·
At the law school
Avenue
in
the
City
at -- on East Chicago
of Chicago?
23
A.
Correct.
24
Q.
Who was present
at that
a
the time of
made?
12
13
knew,
reporting.
4
5
you
meeting?
20
1
A.
I
2
there.
I
3
Shawn,
Tom,
4
was
5
present
6
staff
am
and
Cara
Q.
you
A.
No,
10
Q-
Appolon
11
A.
He
attended
13
ongoing
14
one.
11
Marshall
A.
Again,
18
attend
meetings.
A.
The
lawyers'
22
to
23
ask
24
innocence
try
to
questions
division
of
were
the
present?
don't.
he present?
been
because
meetings.
It
was
an
be
the
first
happened
to
purpose
to
recall
he
save
what
of
of
what
we might
Porter's
the
to
hear
were
going
life
and
possibility
do to
he
was?
was
they
if
regularly
meeting
meeting
Anthony
--
he would
the
the
about
the
spe~ifically
but
purpose
about
and
also
Marshall
was
meeting,
strategy
do
was
members
I
this
Sanders
there
staff
those
that
litigation
have
I don't
first
And the
the
well
know
Hartmann?
Q·
21
--
what
Beaudoin,
but
I
Lawrence
sorry.
of
Q.
that
'20
am
could
series,
was at
19
I
were
Dan
capital
recall
several
17
Lori.
division
9
16
the
students
also
Professor
Do
my
present.
were
litigation
12
were
of
Law
of
about
There
and
15
sure
members
capital
all
not
present.
7
8
believe
investigate
of
to
his
that
21
1
to
check
that
2
Q·
3
competency?
4
A.
5
questions
6
meeting.
7
At that
man
9
10
by
point
Primarily,
that
Q·
8
out
but
were
name
of
don't
I
know
Q-
Did you meet
11
Northwestern
University
12
Northwestern
University?
A.
No,
14
Q.
Was this
15
16
there
about
meet
at
that
a number
time
of
at
with
that
a
Stone?
who
that
with
is.
a psychologist
from
or a ps~chiatrist
from
sir.
videotape
meeting
made
of
at
Northwestern,
was
it?
17
Q.
Audio
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
Did
A.
I
Q·
If
you had notes,
would
contained
in
that
you
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
Did
22
on his
innocence
No.
21
was still
were
A.
~20
((
a
there
Addison
A.
13
focus
raised
Did you also
the
the
tape?
you
don't
you
take
any
notes?
recall.
file
·that
keep
a separate
they
mentioned
file
be
earlier?
about
this
22
1
case
other
than
2
A.
No.
3
Q.
Okay.
your
student
So if
4
meeting
contained
5
we have
discussed,
6
meeting?
in
there
the
you
A.
That's
8
Q.
Correct?
9
A.
That's
correct.
io
Q·
Okay.
What is
11
A.
The
kinds
of
13
pursue
and
then
later
14
student
to
make
a telephone
15
have
16
the
have written
19
'20
of
notes
this
file
of
that
this
notes
the
next
time
I might
you met
have
taken
of
aside
Okay.
on passed
the
on the
call.
It
content
A.
That's
Q·
All
and
passed
21
down
22
possession?
Again,
from
23
A.
That's
24
Q·
What
your
or
the
name
to
you don't
student
have
right.
it
So if
on,
it's
substance
a separate
file?
you wrote
anything
no
in
longer
your
correct.
the
next
meeting
you
a
wouldn't
correct.
is
I
down the name of somebody to
meeting.
Q.
file
no notes
working
no
notes
might
18
file?
correct.
12
17
are
student
have
7
been
working
had
with
of
23
1
this
group
2
Porter
case?
3
of
A.
I don't
4
the
5
believe,
6
their
research,
7-
11 their
research
8
point
to
discuss
progress
report
A.
at
this
getting
class,
on
to
I
their
point
exclusively
13
they'd
14
show them
15
return
16
you
17
comments
18
by any
No.
interviews
in
--
on
terms
focused
they
bring
should
to
them
turn
in
about
Q.
They
of
on
the
students
students?
would
do
would be interesting,
and they
would
I would
read
them and usually
and
this
is
something
that
the
quarter,
made
from
time
at
say
the
end
of
come
about
how to proceedand
them
information?
21
A.
Right,
22
a group.
23
group
although
We would
Group
of
would
give
Q.
all
of a weekly
it.
questions
strategy
filing
to my attention
to me and
them
or
when
thought
them
the
one
Sometimes
with
24
after
updates
which
Anthony
we were
Mondays
was
the
but
Would you require
12
'20
recall,
meeting
just
Q·
11
19
of
regarding
competency.
9
10
students
have
to
you
most
these
of
time
you would
that
group
to
was
done
as
sessions,
sessions.
strategy
sessions
was
limited
to
;
24
1
the
people
2
particular
3
4
and
Well,
there
were
Q-
6
weren't
7
same
meeting
NO,
9
Q·
So
10
conversation
11
apparently
12
11
the
the
Porter
three
other
with
about
case
involved
one group
groups.
the
the
other
back
to
Q·
They
were
four
people?
of
A.
Yeah,
fourth
was.
18
A.
No
Will
Porter
three
group,
groups
you
at
four,
the
group.
24
Aaron
--
well,
earlier
four
projects,
four?
broken
thank
Leamon
a Cook
Okay.
four,
A.
23
and
or
our
into
four
you.
separate
I just
recall
I
four
County
Cook
So was
and
it
case?
and
Will.
He
was
people
in
think
there
were
group.
an
even
breakdown,
four?
Three
Patterson
who
Jordan.
County.
Q·
·22
were
Yeah.
Not
'20
three
A.
Q.
21
right?
getting
'17
in
on a
never.
there
groups
15
19
group
time?
A.
14
a particular
When you met with
8
13
in
case,
A.
5
16
working
the
five
Leamon
people
Jordan
in
the
tried
25
1
Q.
At
did
your
2
1998
3
did
4
interview
5
Taylor?
some
a student
A.
Yes.
7
Q·
Do
8
surrounding
9
A,
you
tell
that
he
11
of
12
particular
13
call
14
to
meet
15
of
the
crime,
16
students
had
you
a man by the
you
know
it
Mr.
them
and
at
in
this
17
Q.
Done
18
A.
My students
19
'20
in
early
Mr.
Taylor's
21
had
serious
22
could
have
23
bring
Mr.
24
testimony
see
fact
or
an
William
Andrew
meeting
if
on the possibility
he
and
had
done
to
persuade
for
an
shortly
the
this
volunteered
could
Park
was
that
him
reenactment
after
my
same ~hing.
what?
November,
had
what
Taylor
to
about
he
the
to
the
came
questions
seen
gone
reenacted
testimony,
held
of
innocent,
Washington
and
--
conducted
a group
Tom McCann,,
Taylor
they
interview?
being
student,
had
of
circumstances
of strategy
Porter
December
that
name
followed
planning
Anthony
the
first
Yes,
involved
in
tell
that
10
in`time
students
with
6
point
Washington
crime
back
and
whether
testified
park
to
see
based
said
Mr.
to
on
they
Taylor
and
if
Park
wanted
~o
his
up.
,-l:"·i
26
1
Q·
2
did this?
Did he make contact with Taylor?
A.
Yes,
4
Q.
Did he have a conversation with Taylor
on
the
by phone.
phone?
6
A.
Yes.
7
Q·
Did he later
8
A.
Yes,
9
Q·
Who did he go with?
A.
A private
Q·
And how is it Ciolins
10
11
he
go see Taylor?
did.
investigator
named Paul
Ciolino.
12
1) this
14
15
And do you know if McCannever
3
5
13
Okay.
became involved
case?
A.
Ciolino became involved in this
18
can do,
credit
Q·
what
checks
and the
When did you make this
request
That would have been in October.
22
Q·
Shortly
24
do
he
of
him,
month?
A.
of
we
like.
21
23
that
not have through data base searches and that
19
'20
case
whenI called him and asked for help in locating
16 )1 certain people because he has exper~ise
17
in
September?
A.
Correct.
after
the class
began at the end
27
1
Q.
2
had
3
months
been
at
least
6
one
of
7
ongoing.
8
when
11
reenactment
11
speed
15
correct?
with
the
11
17
meetings
at
when
Yes.
Q·
And by
what
A.
Correct.
Q·
Have
the
transcript
19
the
trial?
'20
A.
after
the
students
22
would
have
been
23
24
Q.
reenactment?
That
--
students
course
of
contact
he
the
getting
when
with
had
school
they
him
attended
that
into
Taylor
were
late
contacted
to
try
--
to
do
a
crime?
point
students
you
now
of
William
the
by
then
you
feel
about
this
sometime
after
point
the
of
they
mid
to
did
up to
this
case,
time
testimony
William
reenactments,
in
are
in
Taylor's
testimony
did
was
in
law
this
your
21
the
we are
this
I read
your
the
been
So
the
over
because
contacts
A.
18
have
October
is
not
November?
in
Okay.
or
him
would
of
on
whether
and
Tom McCann
12
14
touch
once
November
10
know
They
Q.
9
you
October
A.
5
16
in
of
4
13
Do
at
Taylor
so
late
their
read
this
November.
own
28
1
A.
That's
2
Q·
Did you at the
3
testimony
4
5
6
7
8
9
of Henry
A.
Henry
correct.
same time read
the
Williams?
No, I did not read thetestimony
Williams.
Q·
I
of
I
am sorry.
Go ahead.
A. I have not read the testimony of Henry
Williams. Mystudents showedme a summarymemoof
what
10
he had
Q·
to
say.
Aside from your testimony of your
11
reading of the testimony of William Taylor, have
12
you read any other
13
transcripts
14
trial?
15
16
17
'2 O
that was taken at the
No, the only other pleadings
appellate
proceedings,
So all
of the opinions
Q·
from either
the
21
the Illinois
US District
A.
22
decision
23
judicial
24
of: -- any other
and
that I read
I
read
all
them.
18
19
Of testimony
A.
were the
testimony
Q·
Right.
Court
that
came down
Supreme Court,
and
I
believe
the
Yes, and Judge Neville's
to deny post conviction
Yeah, I think
there
relief.
was a written
The
of
29
1
(I
opinion.
2
A.
It
3
Q·
Yeah.
4
and the
was
A.
That's
6
Q.
Nothing
7
A.
Well,
8
Q·
Yeah.
You read all
10
opinions
of William
right
else?
in
terms
of
documents
I am not trying
those affidavits
(/
A.
That's
Q·
-- other
14
you.
over the course
read any
of
other
correct.
than
You didn't
read
Taylor?
Williams?
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
You didn't
18
A.
That's
19
Q.
You didn't
21
A.
That's
correct.
22
Q·
Okay.
So at some point
20
to trick
testimony
12
17
from court
Taylor?
time, but his background you didn't
11
13
opinion.
So you read
testimony
5
9
a written
read any of Mr.`Porter's
alibi?
correct.
read
any of the police
witnesses?
23
Taylor
24
does?
to participate
McCann asks
in a reenactment
and Taylor
30
1
A.
No,
2
Q.
What is
3
far
as
4
you
A.
speak
to
6
possibility
7
William
9
11
a lecture
12
our
13
that
and
and
at
as
is
I
this
11 interviews'
they
them
to
over
to
instructed
these
technique?
at
point
we role
--
given
they
are
about
to
do
in
feel
16
the best to get your foot in the doe;, best to get
17
people
18
and come up with
up
to
you.
some
of
the
Q.
In
over
the
last
and
I can't
see
one
or
the
good
19
read
20
students,
21
but
22
about
I
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Did
how it
different
15
open
seeing
and in
order
to
up
play
them
14
comfortable
end
this
inte rviewing,
meetings
that
the
him in person.
point
I have
group
that
about
interview
on investigative
for
happens
happens
we'talk
investigative
I have.
weekly
that
Tom McCann going
house,
Who has
in
A.
thing
Ciolino,
Taylor's
10
next
thing
of Paul
students
to.
the
next
Paul
Q.
refuses
know?
The
5
8
Taylor
couple
of
other
weeks
bad
teach
of
~cop
them
that
I see
in
particular
your
students
technique?
that
and
a strategy
accounts
remember
the
cop,
you
news
sounds
technique?
for
I
have
your
who,
talk
31
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q·
I also
3
discussed
4
Ciolino
5
when he spoke
6
tape
7
deaths of JerryRillard and MarilynGreen. ~~
10
the
used
--
I mean,
fact
that
you and I have
we now know that
a what he called
with
Alstory
of a phony witness
a~pretext
Simon.
to the
Paul
statement
~e created
a
1982 shooting
A
11
12
A.
n.
13
Q·
14
with
15
Ciolino
16
All
these
right.
Did anybody
-- this
was going
group
ever
of students
to use this
discuss
the fact
that
technique?
A.
17
e
18
20
21
Q·
Did you ever
22
during
23
and during
24
investigative
the
time
the
that
time
technique
talk
to
your
students
you were conducting
a class
you were instructing
about
the
use
them on
of
ruse
or
32
1
subterfuge
2
A.
4
Q·
5
A.
9
in obtaining
statements
from witnesses?
So you didn't
have those
conversations?
If you want to define
ruse more broadly,
10
I mean,
11
questions to get a witness more .likely to open up
12
rather
13
14
11 get
I talked
you in the
15
this
16
that.
17
misrepresenting
door more likely
I tell
is a class
Q.
project,
but
issues
20
investigation?
tell
and circumstances
A.
Absolutely
22
Q·
So McCann talks
24
at
A.
I
the truth,
it's
also
mean,
that
more than
come up a~out
Taylor's
them to misrepresent
in the
21
Taylor
not.
yourself.
Did you ever
facts
than
them to tell
And so those
19
23
how you order
than close down. What kinds of approaches
for example,
18
to them about
course
of their
not.
apartment,
McCann talks
to Taylor
about
seeing
correct?
to Taylor
as he reports
it
33
1
to
2
crime.
me about
--
3
Q·
Okay.
4
A.
What
5
crime.
6
non-revealing
7
than
to
8
wish
that
9
wouldn't
about
About
Taylor
And Taylor
say,
Anthony
Taylor
saw at
the
deal
Q·
This
11
A.
Telephone,
12
Q.
At
then
is
all
the
see
later
Taylor
do
where
Correct.
15
Q·
They
have
a conversation
A.
Yes,
they
do.
17
Q.
And that
18
A.
That's
correct,
in
hallway.
19
-
apartment
the
20
Q·
But
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q·
You
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
A couple
brief
McCann
over
other
with.
I
already,
so I
yeah.
point
occurs
Taylor,
were
not
days
Ciolino
Taylor
and
lives?
with
in Taylor's
or outside
it's
Ciolino
him?
apartment?
Taylor's
and
McCann?
present?
later
you
the
the
telephone?
A.
11
of
it.
14
16
Mr.
was dead
with
on
some
go
was
of
saw
a very
with
this
night
night
actually
Porter
to
the
what
has
I wish
have
1( McCann
he saw
conversation
10
13
what
go back
with
34
1
Taylor
2
A.
With
3
Q-
I am sorry
5
A.
Correct.
6
Q·
4
7
8
9
Ciolino.
--
with
Ciolino
see
Taylor?
Taylor
were
meeting
to
And between
you are
not
with Taylor
McCann,
the
And
11
Q·
And when Ciolino
time,
13
)( affidavit,
meeting
with
present
and the
second
you
talk
right?
A.
12
first
when you are present,
10
Ciolino
to
in
is
Ciolino.
his
that
was ther~e
own hand
the
drafted
first
an
right?
14
A.
That's
15
Q·
That he then brought
A.
Yes,
16
to
correct
back to you,
correct?
17
18
the affidavit,
19
to
Q·
he -- after
almost
signed,
the
22
prepared
a
one that
second
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
who
did~
signed
came up
immediately.
And from the
21
Mr. Taylor
both Mr. McCann and Ciolino
my house
20
after
affidavit
Ciolino
affidavit,
that
wrote
correct?
out,
Taylor
you then
35
1
A.
Mr.
2
Q·
Where
3
A.
I
4
Q.
You reviewed
6
A.
Right
7
Q·
And
5
Ciolino
image
9
that
don't
of
the
Taylor
do
second
affidavit.
that?
know.
both
documents,
though,
That's
11
Q·
--
12
A.
That's
Q.
And
1(
14
Taylor's
15
copy?
11
17
you
are
with
on
A.
That's
Q·
All
to
your
19
some
the
20
apparently
21
version
22
go
23
this
out
to
second
A.
one
is
exception
a
mirror
of a.change
the
typewritten
as
correct?
copy
it
was
So
McCann
then
after
reflects
the
handwritten
correct.
They
tell
you
Ciolino
goes
and
prepares
another
the
statement
and
Taylor's
apartment
affidavit,
That's
'copy,
correct.
later
of
the
handwritten
right.
house.
point
that
correct.
affidavit
18
aware
made
A.
24
he
other
10
16
did
the
right?
8
13
typed
correct?
correct.
and
Ciolino
what
happened.
back
to
his
come
At
office
typewritten
then
and
you
have
and
Ciolino
him
execute
36
1
2
Q.
Did
William
you
Taylor
engage
on
in
that
3
A.
Oh,
4
Q·
You talked
conversation
with
occasion?
extensively
for
to
several
him
about
hours
all
of
5
and circumstances
that
6
deaths
Green
and
Jerry
Hillard,
7
correct?
to
him
about
the
of
Marilyn
8
A.
Correct.
9
Q.
You talked
10
received
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q·
You talked
13
(1 statements
he knew about
in the police
in
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
And
16
)( conversations,
17
affidavit
18
signed
and
in
to
out
after
you
which
your
him
the
about
of
court,
having
all
then
facts
the shooting
treatment
following
his
he
day?
prior
right?
of
presented
he executed,
these
him
that
with
is
to
to
Paul
this
say
he
presence?
19
A.
Yes.
~O
Q·
Which
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
And
23
who was
present
with
24
signing
so
Ciolino
that
station
the
you
which
then
signed?
you'then
you
gave
while
who is
you
and
a notary
Ciolino
Taylor
public
were
37
1
could
attest
2
Andrew
to your
Taylor,
A.
That's
4
Q·
All
4128
6
right?
North
of this
No.
It
8
Clarendon
and
ended
9
(phonetic)
11
basically
13
to
16
And in the
apartment
the
at
of Chicago,
apartment
on North
Restaurant
The execution
of the
restaurant.
affidavit
things,
One,
I was present
~aylor
right?
said
And I'11
to you
read
them
you.
shooting
11
occurred,
at
the
park
when the
correct?
Q·
Two, I did
19
A.
Correct.
~O
Q·
Three,
22
A.
Correct.
23
Q ·-
And,
17
24
City
his
Ann Sathers
four
Correct.
21
at
in his
up at
at
A.
18
the
began
occurred
14
15
in
on West Belmont.
Q·
12
occurred
Clarendon
A.
affidavit
of William
correct.
7
10
and that
correct?
3
5
signature
not
see
Anthony
Porter
shoot
anybody?
a
I never
seen
Anthony
Porter
with
gun?
victims
that
four,
I
did
not
see
who
shot
the
day?
~·:;:
38
1
A.
That's
2
Q·
And these
3
told
4
correct?
you after
these
Correct.
6
Q·
The same four
7
Ciolino
8
correct?
because
12
they
14
Well,
I
Q·
But
A.
Yes,
are
parallel.
Q·
four points
16
in
the
you
seen
the
So these
handwritten
18
Q·
You are
aware
in the pool
four
points
that
he also
that
area
that
night,
22
Q·
And he told
you that
his
4128 North
Ann Sathers
the
same
told
Ciolino
he did see Anthony
That's
the
are
correc~?
A.
24
them
off on, if you will,
21
at
interview,
correct.
and Tom McCann initially
either
he told
comes to the documents,
affidavit,
That's
23
he
handwritten
he -~ he signed
A.
Porter
that
know what he told
oh, when it
17
'20
that
present.
Okay.
15
things
earlier
I wouldn't
wasn't
four
things
and McCann in the
A.
11
the
two hours of conversation,
A.
10
19
are
5
9
13
correct.
right?
correct.
home at
Restaurant,
when you saw him
right?
Clarendon
or at
39
1
A.
No,
that
that
he
2
to
me was
3
for
sure
that
is
night,
5
him as he was fleeing.
6
Porter
7
Q·
because
he thought
9
that
Thought,
11
Q.
After
occasion
13
(1 Taylor
14
saw
when
at
him
the
again
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q·
That's
on
It
it
was
he ran by
like
Anthony
you
it
Porter
looked
--
that
in the pool area
the
yes.
this
you
evening
had
--'after
two locations
at
this
conversation
with
one
William
we mentioned,
you also
WBBM TV News?
the
night
he
read
~is
affidavit
television?
A.
Yes,
19
Q·
Did
you
have
brought
that
looked
He told
18
'2 O
thought
night?
A.
17
know who he saw
of the way that
he saw Anthony
10
12
he
he said
him.
Correct.
8
What
didn't
that
Anthony
Porter
correct.
really
4
to
not
correct.
Yes,
I was
present.
a conversation
with
him
night?
21
A.
Yes,
I
22
Q·
You
picked
hiin
23
A.
Correct.
24
Q·
From that
point
him
up
to
at
the
his
forward
studios.
home?
did
you have
any
: :o·-:
40
1
more conversation
2
about
what
3
4
he
A.
Anthony
with
Yes, I believe
Porter
And when
6
A.
I am sorry.
that
--
And he
9
A.
He called
Q·
Did he leave
with
you
12
13
14
called
date?
It was a blur of
at
your
office?
my home.
a message or did he speak
I called
me a message
him back,
What
was
the
asking
and we had
me to call
a brief
nature
of
that
conversation?
A.
19
witness
testimony,
'2 O
thought
as a catholic
hell
22
fact
He was in a lot
the
24
you
me at
18
23
the
person?
He left
Q.
17
21
recall
me.
conversation.
15
16
in
A.
1( him.
do you
after
week.
Q·
11
he called
I don't.
8
10
affidavit
it was shortly
was released
Q·
events
his
saw?
5
7
him about
for
Qwith
him
A.
that,
of emotional
as he put
it,
he provided
and he repeatedly
that
pain
over
false
said
that
he was going to go to
it.
Did you have
other
That
than
was
that
the
any further
conversation
day?
last
he
time
I spoke
to
him.
41
1
Q·
2
your
3
Anthony
would
two
Porter
A.
was
I
weekend
of
his
Porter
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
If
9
THE
FOREPERSON:
10
MR.
GAINER:
11
Q.
I
13
A.
Yeah,
14
Q.
So
15
it
I'm
am
to
after
the
best
you
--
of
after
was
that
weekend,
the
yes.
got
out
on
Friday?
not
mistaken
the
29th
of
January?
No.
sorry.
The
5th
of
January
--
of
February?
been
on
right
your
either
last
the
16
A.-
Correct
17
Q·
You
A.
No.
Q.
Did,
18
days
release,
Q.
been,
released?
believe
6
12
have
recollection,
4
5
That
conversation
6th
or
the
would
have
7th?
.
had
no
further
conversation
with
since?
him
19
21
eithdr
22
of
23
execution
24
obtained
value
to
Tom McCann
to
the
or
William
of
from
the
him
best
Paul
Taylor
handwritten
on
December
of
your
Ciolino
in
knowledge,
promise
return
for
affidavit
11,
anything
his
that
1998?
they
42
1
2
3
6
Q.
And when I say anything of value, I mean
of
A.
value?
Correct.
Q. Did they tell you -_ do you know,
best of your knowledge, did they ever say the
to
the
7
words movie rights or book deals in connection
8
with the execution bf the handwritten affidavit?
9
10
A.
12
13
They said nothing like that,
hope that they didn't.
certainly
11
Q·
Okay.
and I
When you met him on the
14th
of
December,1998, did you say anything to him about
11 movie rights
or book deals?
14
A.
No,
15
Q·
Did you promise him anything of value in
16
executed
18
Sathers
19
'2
21
22
23
I did
not.
return for his signature
17
24
They told me they did not.
anything
4
5
A.
O
on this aff~davit
that
on the 14th of December, 1998, at Ann
Restaurant?
A.
No,
I did
not.
Q·
Had you discussed
with Ciolino
the
investigative techniques employedby him when he
and McCannwent to the apartment house where
Taylor
lived?
A.
I discussed
them with both Tom and
Paul
he
43
1
before
they
2
Q·
3
after
5
Q·
Anddid you determine that they were
that you had described
class
A.
10
That was the
your
cop
students
approach.
COPand Paul Ciolino being the b~adcop?
A.
Correct.
13 11
Q·
Did Ciolino
14
that
15
he said
A.
16
what
i?. II
19
t,
bad
earlier?
12
18
cop,
Q. with of course TomMcCann
being the good
11
23
Yes.
in your
9
22
A.
technique
8
21
returned?
doing some role playing this good
7
20
Anddid you discuss those techniques
they
4
6
went.
he
Q·
tell
you the kinds
of things
to Taylor?
Yes, but I don't recall specifically
said.
Did Tom McCann tell
you
the
kinds
of
things that he, TomMcCann,said to Taylor?
A.
Tomsaid that he spoke very little
during the interview,
that it was
Paul
who really
took the lead, and basically it wasquestioning
himabout the credibility of his testimonyin
light of what Tomhad seen in reenacting it
the
24
Previous month, and Tom, to hear them tell
it
was
44
1
occasionally
2
there,
3
that
chiming
and
4
I
Q.
5
to
you
6
by
Paul
the
8
Q·
Did
Yes.
11
Q·
What
12
A.
He
forth.
14
least
a
15
and
ultimately
16
17
Taylor
18
the
Do
when
two
you
A.
I
~o
Q.
And
was
a
believe
couple
A.
Yeah,
23
Q.
Did
both
at
his
an
your
of
22
24
first
concerns
employed
either
of
them
ever
tell
about
his
nervo-us,
to
pacing
talk
and
demeanor?
back
about
they
it
hung
in
to
open
up.
how
long
they
~pent
when
it
saw
him
hour
or
so.
of
your
for
at
there
with
was
just
them?
19
21
him
seen
any
Taylor?
say
so,
know
they
of
express
to
want
got
have
talked
extremely
or
down
demeanor?
they
hour
was
techniques
did
didn't
I
could
ever
Taylor's
was
half
Q·
--
did
He
well,
you
they
about
A.
and
McCann
they
10
13
how
when
anything
with,
investigative
Ciolino
No.
you
see
Tom
about
A.
9
don't
Did
7
in
estimate
with
him
with
him
hours?
two
Taylor
home
time
and
to
three.
during
your
at
restaurant
the
meeting
have
45
1
anything
of
an
2
A.
Yes,
3
Q.
Where?
4
A.
At
5
Q·
Did
6
beverages
at
alcoholic
he
Ann
he
his
No.
had
A.
8
apartment
9
had no conversation
have
Well,
consists
of
him
to
get
11
talked
for
a while
in
12
to
restaurant.
14
how much
15
16
time
19
~O
were
21
22
this
spent
A.
Somewhere
Q·
And the
at
I am aware
very
small
him inside
dressed
the
and
hallway
that
his
of.
room,
this
His
so we
room.
come out.
and
you spent
We
We
then
we went
with
him,
apartment?
between
15 minutes
and
a half
hour.
17
18
wine.
alcoholic
that
Your two hours
was
of
other
with
for
Q·
any
not
waited
11
a glass
drink?
Sathers.
10
13
to
apartment?
7
the
nature
the
was
spent
at
A.
Traveling
also
talking.
Q.
How many
other
the
--
the
balance
of
that
restaurant?
to
and
glasses
from
of
the
wine
restaurant
did
he have
we
in
restaurant?
23
A.
One.
24
Q·
Did he appear
to be intoxicated
when you
I·1.
46
1
first
encountered
him
2
A.
No.
3
Q·
Did Paul
4
anything
S
beverages
6
to
A.
7
interview
8
outside
9
time.
io
and
12
smelling
13
intoxicated?
they
Well,
to
of his
recall
of
15
Q.
Bloodshot
A.
Nothing
Q.
Okay.
18
with
19
of
Taylor
you
21
Q·
Who is
the
A.
Waiter
24
Q.
And
drinking
at
the
though,
anything
your
the
next
last
weekend
talked
witness
case?
23
the
in the hallway
about
appeared
haven't
right.
this
of
to
be
that
sometime
That's
in
accounts
specifically,
he
so
A.
with
him?
saying
like
and
alcoholic
eyes?
'20
22
of
conducted
and
And
is
February
use
their
comment
alcohol
No.
17
hear
them
A.
11
Taylor's
room and he was not
14
16
or Tom McCann say
interviewed
Did they
do you
home?
Ciolino
about
when
his
it was entirely
Q-
11
you
at
Jackson.
when
do
you
do
that?
conversation
of
to
that
6th
him
or
7th
since?
you speak
47
1
A.
Between
3
Q.
And Jackson
4
A.
Correct.
5
Q·
And you had a conversation
2
Christmas
your
of
called
A.
Correct.
8
Q·
Before
with
Anthony
that
did
A.
Yes.
11
Q·
Where
12
A.
At
13 1(
Q·
Who was present
spoke
with
did
Cook
Anthony
16 1)
Q·
Do you recall
17
A.
It
Q.
and
21
Year's?
before
have
a conversation
and
was
during the time that you
Shawn
Armbrust,
Tom McCann.
the date of that meeting?
sometime
my contact
So sometime
the
Jail.
between
with
after
week
between
sure,
22
A.
I am pretty
'23
Q·
And who arranged
Porter?
him at
Porter?
Dan Sanders,
'20
with
occur?
County
A.
affidavit
you
that
15
19
phone?
Porter?
10
14
you on the
home?
7
9
24
New Year's
1998.
6
18
and
Taylor's
Waiter
the
14th
Christmas
Jackson.
of December
and
New
yes.
for that
meeting with
48
1
A.
Dan
2
Q·
Who called
3
A.
I
4
Q·
Where
5
A.
Division
9
6
Q-
Division
9.
7
you
met
8
area
Windows,
11
A.
There
13
14
.11
Q.
with
15
16
in
you
A.
)1 Sanders,
Division
were
windows
and
out.
And
how
many
the
you
met
when
that
room
was
off
The group
with
were
where
of
the
me,
in
that
the
room
Porter?
I mentioned.
,
It
was Porter,
McCann.
correctional
A.
No.
19
Q.
How
20
A.
Prison
21
Q·
And
was
22
A.
His
hands
were
you
informed
was
and~ a door
people
18
Q·
him again?
9.
No
24
Porter?
doors?
Armbrust
his
with
room
Q.
about
with
And describe
17
23
meeting
you meet
a small
of
Q·
opened
did
was
10
12
the
him?
It
hospital
for
did.
with
A.
9
Sanders.
officers?
Porter
clothed?
jump
suit.
he
shackled?
manacled.
I
don't
recall
feet.
Were
prior
to
your
meeting
49
1
in
that
i
would be taped through a tape recording
system
3
that
to
4
room?
was
room
that
played
anything
--
5
A.
No.
6
Q·
There
8
A.
That's
9
Q.
How long
10
A.
An
11
Q·
Did
7
were
no
in
that
connected
correctional
room
that
officers
with
correct.
did
hour
to
you
Anthony
Yes,
14
Q·
When you
the
English
1)
17
an
meeting
hour
and
take
a
have
place?
half.
conversation
Porter?
A.
15
that
personally
13
18
somehow
said
inside?
12
16
or
you
I
did.
spoke
to
him,
did
you
speak
in
the
English
in
language?
A.
Yes
Q.
And did
A.
Yes.
Q.
Now,
he
speak
to
you
language?
19
'2 O
21
conversation
22
that
did
with
you
other
hear
Porter
people
engage
present
in
in
the
day?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q·
Those
people
were
all
speaking
English?
room
50
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q·
And Porter
3
response
to
what
was speaking
were
have
a conversation
with
Dan
a conversation
with
Shawn
A.
Yes.
5
Q-
Did
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q·
Did he have
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Tom
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q·
And
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q·
Did
6
9
16
in
they
4
he
English
saying?
Sanders?
Armbrust?
1( that
he
knew
McCann?
yourself?
you
talk
Jerry
with
him
about
the
facts
Hillard?
17
A.
Yes.
18
a·
And what did he say about his knowledge
19
of
z;o
21
22
Jerry
Hillard?
A.
knew
That
Marilyn
Q-
23
membership
24
A.
they
had
been
friends
and
that
he
too.
Okay.
in
No.
And did
the
Cobra
he talk
Stones?
to you about
his
51
1
2
Qin
the
3
4
of
he
Cobra
A.
that
before
Q.
were
I
Hillard's
recall.
membership
A.
That's
8
Q·
Did
A.
To
Although
I
was
aware
meeting.
were
aware
members
7
9
about
this
You
Hillard
talk
Stones?
Not
both
5
6
Did
of
of
the
both
that
Porter
same
gang?
and
correct.
he
tell
you
how
it
is
the
best
of
in
this
session
as
you
know,
he
knew
Jerry
Hillard?
10
11
described
12
words
13
no
him
to
the
reason
14
for
Q~
15
students
16
sorrow
17
convicted
18
friend.
19
effect
me
As
that
the
of
20
reasons
I
21
respond
to
22
innocent,
23
four
killing
24
again.
of
fact,
one
that
wanted
him
a question
he
about
launched
statement
And I believe
think
one
of
expressed
was
the
is
into
the
his
like
to
about
his
course
said
be
your
some
and
own
that?
room,
whether
professing
in
would
that.
anything
meet
and
like
he
that
in
to
there
just
he had bee~ charged
a guy
remember
I
point
he
a friend
somebody
When we walked
and
minute
kill
at
fact
Do you
A.
to
a matter
said
over
of,
my knowledge,
one
hear
of
the
him
or not
he was
a three
to
innocence
of making
..:--.·1.
52
1
those
statements
2
about
being
did
falsely
Q.
He
did
become
4
A.
He
was
clearly
5
Q.
Do
you
recall
6
during
this
7
colloquy?
9
A.
you
to
10
16
years.
11
over
again.
12
then
from
13
questions
14
have
15
innocent.
16
17
three
It
say
ac·cused
3
8
in
I'm
there
four
have
that
I
been
responsible
Q·
What
have
did
about
he
things
I
saying
just
said
to
it
believe
went
who
for
the
say
when
he
said
assume
been
got
friend.
he
innocent.
conversation
had
a
that.
I
am
upset
that?
other
He
guys
become
about
minute
I
did
about
I
me.
the
murdering
upset
innocent.
You
of
upset
Yeah.
believe
he
what
or
was.
--
this
for
over
and
me.
And
into
thought
crime
might
if
you
need
he
asked
was
him
those
questions?
18
19
he
A.
and
He
Inez
Jackson
20
Q.
Did
21
A.
I
22
things
23
prisoner
24
while
said
that
he
his
Porter,
he
thought
were
responsible.
tell
you
think
named
he,
that
he
lawyers
Picky
how
said
he
that
told
Young
was
Alstory
he
him
who
incarcerated
knew
Simon
that?
knew
and
through
through
while
he
in
was
a
--
53
1
Pontiac
2
information
3
from
4
Jackson.
5
tried
11
7
Ken
8
court's
And
years
this
all
of
11
That's
those
Q.
12
talking
13
Young
So
an
that
named
same
Picky
came
Waiter
Young
affidavit
that
correct,
you
about
to
Flaxman
and
Waiter
Yes.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
release
17
Department
18
Office
19
of
on
20
right?
who
attorney
brought
to
the
this
point
I
read
what
he
was
You
the
Cook
charged
Yes.
22
Q·
And
know
some
know
and
A.
he
told
you
about
Picky
Jackson?
of
21
you
at
understood
when
5th
Hillard
you
--
the
have
Jerry
and
certainly
when
A.
ask
name
Pontiac
gave
with
affidavits.
14
24
his
the
(phonetic)
A.
could
is
Porter,
attention?
9
23
clear
at
before
Flaxman
him,
could
prisoner
Q.
seven
approach
that
another
6
10
to
that
February
the
although
that
questions
in
murder
didn't
that.
the
murder
Marilyn
know
of
Police
Attorney's
with
of
December
about
Chicago
State's
Simon
you
Porter's
the
County
Alstory
and
since
1998,
Green,
that,
I
how
want
to
54
1
A.
Sure.
2
Q-
He
3
and
4
these
Inez
told
Jackson
you
were
A.
That's
6
Q.
And
he
of what he heard
8
Young
knew
from
among
10
Q·
What
were
11
A.
He
14
statement,
15
park
17
11
responsible
Simon
for
other
it
was
because
the
was
things.
other
aware
things?
of,
and
I mentioned
independently
about
that
Jackson?
whether
up
you
of
seeing
her
Q-
Did he tell
you that
A.
No, he told
us he did
Q.
Did
you
or
Offie
daughter
Inez.
can't
this
the
with
I
leave
he
Green
for
the
he knew Alstory
Simon?
18
19
also
recall
it
to
Waiter
Yes,
16
that
from Ricky Young and what Ricky
A.
11 brought
somehow
said
9
13
believed
correct.
7
frankly
he
murders?
5
12
that
not
know Alstory
Simon.
20
he
21
building
at
5323
22
building
in
the
23
A.
I
don't
24
Q.
That's
tell
South
Robert
think
the
he
was
Federal,
Taylor
we
building
familiar
with
a high-rise
Homes?
asked
that.
where
Jerry
Hillard
the
55
1
lived?
2
A.
Okay.
3
Q·
Did
4
with
the
area
tell
where
A.
No.
6
Q·
Did he tell
7
Simon
8
building?
10
A·
the
Simon
Q·
that
13
A·
14
asked
15
sensitive
16
night?
17
that
In fact,
he knew Alstory
and
ask
four
one
of
I thought
was,
were
And he absolutely
from
around
he didn't
that
know who
he was in the park
of them together?
the
last
questions
this
would
you in
the
denied
I
be the
park
Did
you
19
A.
No.
Q.
Did you
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
What
did
24
A.
Then
where
investigate
ask
his
bei;lg in the park
alibi?
him questions
about
his
his
alibi?
alibi?
you
was
ask
he.
him
most
that
night.
Q.
21
lived?
you that
He --
18
'2 O
familiar
was.
him because
to
was
Hillard
he said
and saw the
NO.
he
you that
Did he tell
night
that
neighborhood
No.
Alstory
11
12
from
you
Jerry
5
9
1`
he
about
56
1
Q.
What
2
A.
He
3
home
and
4
5
Did
with
he
said
part
Qout
did
that
of
the
he
tell
part
of
time
he
you
think
7
Q·
And
hadn't
read
this
meeting
testimony
you
prior
to
A.
As
10
Q.
You
11
A.
Well
12
Q.
Go
13
A.
Thanks.
14
proceedings
in
15
the
summary
court's
i) was,
17
but
he
19
those
had
I
with
was
was
at
friends.
when
he
was
said.
I
very
still
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
That
the
That
24
Q.
Did
have
read
matter,
I
of what
his
this
were
same
A-.
alibi
with
Having
aware
convicted
23
his
said.
witness
him?
not.
ahead.
'20
in
specifically
were
You
been
sitting
he
I have not read
Q.
18
he
he
friends?
I don't
16
time
out
where
A.
9
the
was
6
8
22
say?
the
the
was
familiar
alibi
on
a crime
with
testimony
testimo~y
that
of
appellate
itself.
aprior
that
occasion
occurred
in
bleachers?
was
the
robbery
bleachers,
I
you
don't
have
if
of
I'm
a man
not
mistaken?
know.
any
other
who
conversation
was
57
1
about
2
recall
Alstory
as
Simon,
you
sit
Inez
here
A.
On
4
Q·
On this
5
A.
Yes.
We mentioned
to Alstory
Simon.
spoken
7
students
8
concerned
9
our
10
first
then
that
meeting,
12
remember
11 the
to
Alstory
him
that
we had
This was two of my
me briefly.
And he became
Simon would
do something
Okay.
A.
your
to
County
expressing
16
investigate
17
all
his
else
as a result
harm
that
conversation
of
Inez
in
you can
December
at
Jail?
He concluded
15
of
Anything
about
Cook
14
the
gratitude
conversation
for
our
by
willingness
to
his claim of innocence a;ld then hugged
us.
18
Q·
19
everything
he
620
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
When was
the
next
Is
that
the
sum
to
you?
A.
I didn't
talk
to
said
and
substance
time
you
of
talked
to
him?
23
24
yes.
Jackson.
Q·
22
you can
date?
conversation
11
13
and
that
today?
3
6
this
Jackson
until
he was released,
but
him again
in person
I had a couple
of very
58
1
brief
conversations
2
3
Q·
those
Do you
A.
Kis
5
the
6
come
7
doing,
8
going
on with
9
don't
think
the
11
be
line.
15
investigation
our
of
of
your
of
Q.
So there
about
A.
No.
~20
Q.
There
Alstory
his
has
other
that
the
actual
24
he hopes
he would
how he was
know what
was
And I said,
me to
going
talk
about
well.
That
I
it
on
would
conversations
have
you
you had with
talked
and
about
the
the
students?
never
been
any
more
alibi?
never
been
any
more
discussion
Simon?
Oh,
glad
to
then
said.
has
A.
23
he wanted
we
your
17
19
him
for
and he was on
and
investigation
of
discussion
Linda
are
release
No.
22
matter
I asked
of the
A.
about
subject
investigation.
what
In all
his
to
things
16
21
phone.
had called,
proper
But
since
substance
Linda
know,
it's
gist
14
18
the
And
you
phone.
the
wife
line.
and,
Q·
(1 him
recall
And I spoke
on the
12
13
him on the
conversations?
4
10
with
he doesn't
than
for
killer
get
the
him
is
to
say
in custody
death
penalty.
that
and
he's
that
59
1
Q-
Has he ever
2
seen pictures
3
A.
No.
In fact,
spoke
5
up, and he again said,
6
is.
to my students
Q·
in person
tell
you that
9
building
5323
South
A.
I
11
Q·
Are you aware
13
11 night
said
after
14
A.
15
but it's
16
building?
that
that
left
one of his
Right.
18
A.
Lot
come
and
his
of people
live
there.
with
the
alibi
It's
A lot
a large
of
go.
Jerry Hillard lived there,
21
A.
Jerry
22
Q.
Alstory
23
A.
That
building?
him
specifically,
Q·
Federal
guy
home?
'2O
24
came
is where they were that
Robert Taylor Homes, right?
Q.
people
with
he was familiar
I was not aware of that
17
19
week that
recall.
that
they
last
Federal?
10
witnesses
that guy?
as when he
conversations
did he ever
can't
he's
I have no ideawhothis
In any of your
at
I recognize
as recently
8
12
to you now that
in the paper,
4
7
said
Hillard
lived
Simonlived
I wasn't
Ye;ah.
right?
there.
there?
aware
of
Correct.
--
oh,
at
South
60
1
Q.
2
Jerry
3
building
4
S
7
7th
8
11
and
Alstory
the
as
Q·
One
11
14
floor,
Taylor
with
lived
I
on
didn't
knew
lived
hundreds
today
in
Homes,
10th
Q.
Did
A.
Yes.
Q.
Her
know
that
floor,
that
Simon
you
have
11
with
full
Simon,
that
the
same
right?
of
other
one
lived
on
Hillard
was
a
on
lived
on
10th
7.
conversation
with
Inez
A.
Correct.
Q·
And
her
in
how
Two.
19
Q.
During
with
is
of
course
Margaret
Inez
many
conversations
did
you
have
person?
A.
alone
name
right?
18
her
--
or
and
were
people
were
there
were
those
conversations
other
people
21
A.
Other
22
Q.
On
the
first
conversation
A.
On
the
first
conversation,
24
here
right?
I
Jackson
15
23
sit
Simon
Robert
Undoubtedly
you
Jackson?
12
'20
aware
A.
floor.
10
17
in
A.
9
16
Killard
are
people.
6
13
You
present?
present
who
was
present?
Shawn
61
1
Armbrust,
2
Cara Rubinsky,
Q·
3
started
And that
at
her
A.
Correct.
5
Q·
Moved
6
A.
Correct.
7
Q.
Then
8
A.
Correct.
9
Q.
And then
Brookfield,
took place
-- that
and myself.
conversation
home?
4
10
Paul Ciolino
to
to
a restaurant?
a grocery
store?
to the Armbrust
family
home in
Wisconsin?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q·
During that
conversation
did you at any
13 Ij time promise Margaret Inez Jackson Simon anything
14
of value to obtain a statement
from her concerning
15
the
and Green?
shooting
deaths
of Hillard
16
A.
No.
17
Q.
Did you mention
18
movie
19
Margaret
20
statement
21
of
deals
in
Inez
connection
Jackson
the
with
and
A.
No.
23
Q-
Did any one of the
your
presence
interviews
the
to get
shooting
or
of
a
deaths
Green?
22
24
your
Simon in order
from her concerning
Hillard
words book rights
that
day
at
any
people
of
who were
those
in
four
I
·;··
62
1
locations
2
that
that
to
we
A.
No.
4
Q.
Your
before
your
A.
That's
7
Q·
To
8
either
of
9
about
movie
No.
11
Q·
To
13
her
14
deaths
16
17
to
make
of
1(
in
the
anything
like
some
contact
with
knowledge,
did
best
the
Inez
Q.
You
your
mention
a
best
of
had
a
to
her
deal?
your
Simon
and
anything
book
knowledge,
anything
statement
Hillard
No.
of
or
the
A.
her
right?
students
Margaret
15
say
correct.
rights
A.
had
meeting,
your
10
offer
students
first
6
12
ever
her?
3
S
discussed
about
did
of
the
value
they
to
get
shooting
Green?
second
conversation
with
her
person?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
Where
~o
A.
Initially
21
at
the
Holiday
22
of
Chicago.
23
Q.
Who
24
A.
Many
did
that
it
Inn
was
in
present
people.
take
was
City
at
place?
WBBM TV and
Center,
on
these
near
ended
north
occasions?
up
side
63
1
Q·
2
her
3
then
4
promise
S
affidavit?
All
on this
at
right.
day
Well,
when
the
Holiday
her
anything
she
Inn
while
appeared
City
for
her
No.
7
Q·
Did you talk
A.
No.
Q·
Did you -- did she stay
A.
She
stayed
Q·
Did
you
pay
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Did
you
way pay
for
the
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q·
Did
you
pay
the
meal
io
11
)(
or
rights
for
her
or book
at the Holiday
overnight.
for
that?
groceries
in
Wisconsin?
the
A.
who
for
that
she
had
restaurant?
io
21
movie
you
Inn?
12
19
about
with
deals?
9
16
did
testimony
A.
13
were
on WBBM TV and
Center,
6
8
you
She had
paid
22
for
Q·
23
paying
24
Simon
for
total?
a cup of chili.
I am not
sure
it.
Do you
recallhow
things
related
much money you spent
to
Margaret
Inez
Jackson
at
64
1
A.
2
relates
Q.
dollar
her
affidavit
I
A.
how
After
probably
Okay.
8
A.
And
10
that
I
it
included
as
it
want
to
know
a
spent?
the
there
question
just
affidavit,
around
That's
also
we
$100
total?
was
her
the
Holiday
relatives
Inn
who
bill,
were
there.
Q.
Okay.
12
A.
And
13
1( Ciolino,
14
late
that
15
was
probably
17
you
signed
then
11
16
much
your
zero.
But
somewhere
Q.
but
to
is
she
spent
7
9
answer
understand.
amount
S
6
the
to
3
4
Well,
11
it
Q.
were
my students
included
night.
What
in
That
Correct.
19
Q.
And
20
A.
Correct,
21
Q.
All
23
were
24
you
and
drinks
area
of
bill
there,
Paul
for
all
turned
out
of
to
$400.
the
room
that
was
had?
and
rather
or
rooms
Holiday
about
can
meal
right.
Inn
a
recall?
and
hundred
This
the
'other
bucks,
a large
that
was
it
bills
that's
phone
--
the
we
it,
bill
bill
at
discussed
as
far
us
be
used?
A.
the
the
were
that
includes
18
22
food
who
as
65
1
A.
I believe
2
so
that
3
place
of
4
where
she
5
6
she
Q.
entire
could
trying
But
with
Yes.
8
Q.
--
9
A.
Correct.
Q-
Okay.
personally
on
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
When?
14
A.
It
15
16
in
November
1) Rubinsky
and
17
Q·
18
this
group
19
that
correct?
I
Shawn
went
to
This
is
of
yours
the
very
had
That's
correct.
21
Q.
On the
first
23
till
24
and
you
were
7:00?
A.
That's
that
is
the
spent
Simon?
did
you
ever
Simon?
sometime,
Milwaukee
I believe,
with
Cara
Armbrust.
A.
afternoon
her
to
then
was
Alstory
been
to
$5
a job.
you--
have
her
trip
trying
Jackson
Were
20
22
that
gave
round
was
find
Margaret
when
bus
exception
money
would
Ciolino
she
to
interview
12
the
that
of
A.
Paul
that
was
7
11
take
employment
amount
10
that
correct.
first
any
contact
occasion
told
time
you
he
wouldn't
anyone
in
with
him,
went
in
be
is
the
home
66
1
Q·
You and your
2
you stayed
3
7:00?
there
group
in Milwaukee
A.
That's
correct.
5
Q·
That's
when you sent the two young
ladies
up to
talk
to
Simon,
7
A.
That's
8
Q·
They went~in
10
A.
That's
11
Q-
You had already
9
correct?
correct.
the
house
for
about
15
minutes?
12
right.
developed
that led you to believe
11
information
that he.may be the.killer?
A.
That's
14
Q·
And they came out of the house?
15
A.
I was parked
16
of
and went back at
4
6
13
-- or the three
correct.
directly
across
the
street
() watching.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
A.
They came out
And then
what happened?
of the house,
I came out
19
of the car to introduce
myself and thank him for
20
talking
to my students,
and we engaged in a three
21
or
minute
22
23
24
four
Q.
Did you durin~ that conversation
him anything
statement
conversation.
to -- of value
about
the
shooting
to cause
deaths
him
promise
to
of Hillard
make
a
and
...··
I:-· ~~·
.. ~.. . ~~ :;.
:--.~-.--~1?
·
67
1
Green?
2
A.
3
No, he didn't
make a statement about
the
Shooting deaths of Hillard and Green at that time.
4
Q.
Did you promise him anything on this
5
first meetingand asked himto think about making
6
a statement with respect to the shooting of
7
Hillard
8
and
A.
9
Green?
No, he said he didn't
want to see us
again.
10
Q. Did you ever promise him anything that
first night that you met him for.any reason?
11
12
A.
No.
13 ii
Q·
Did you ever talk about movierights or
14
a
book
deal?
15
A.
No.
16 1)
Q.
Did you ever meet him agaiI; in
17
A.
No.
18
19
20
Q·
Did anybody to your knowledge ever
promise him anything to cause him to make a
statement
about the shooting
21
A.
Yes,
22
Q·
What did he promise
23
A.
24
person?
sorry.
Paul
of Hillard
and Green?
Ciolino.
him?
Oh. What did he promise him? No,
I misunderstood your question.
I
am
-~··i:
68
1
Q·
Let
2
A.
Sorry.
3
Q·
To the
4
anyone
5
cause
6
shooting
best
again.
of your
anything
knowledge,
Hillard
and
A.
No one
to
Q·
Has anybody
did
to Alstory
make a statement
of
10
might
11
promises
12
make statements
·1)
with
Simon to
respect
to the
Green?
my knowledge
promised
him
be
the
case,
made
suggested
that
to
there
Alstory
about
to you that
may have
Simon
the
to
been
cause
shooting
such
him
to
of Hillard
and
Green?
14
15
16
you
anything.
9
13
ask
promise
him to
7
8
ever
me
time
11
-
A.
No,
that
anyone
Q.
Did any one of your studen~s
17
you with
18
that
19
Alstory
to
the
contrary.
has
ever
concerns
Ciolino
they
employed
This
raised
the
first
it.
had about
in
was
the
taking
approach
technique
a statement
from
Simon?
20
A.
No.
21
p.
Did Ciolino
22
something
to
23
statement
about
24
A.
·,
Alstory
He told
·
the
say
to you
Simon
shooting
me afterward
to
that
get
of
he promised
him
to
Hillard
--
make
and
Paul
Green?
Ciolino
.
.
the
·
69
1
told
me afterward
2
lawyer
if
3
Q·
4
didn't
Well,
6
that
he got
7
fact
that
8
same office
9
him.
io
with
12
and
13
fact
get
he did
get
him a
him a lawyer,
I have no independent
him the
Jack
area
Jack
Rimland
Alstory
Simon
14
Jack
15
reported
16
that
17
Simon,
18
that
19
1~ didn't
to
I am aware
in the
is representing
he got
in touch
day and hooked
Jack
know if
Paul
got
and hooked
Paul
did
in
touch
them up.
Rimland
and ~ inferred
when he came to WBBM,
this
had managed
ask him about
to
it.
with
He
Jack Rimland was going to r~pre$ent
Paul
of the
who works
Ciolino
that
knowledge
up?
directly
me,
say
that
I don't
Rimland
but
(phonetic)
as Paul
Did Ciolino
A.
lawyer,
Rimland
Q·
/1
~o
help
one.
And in
A.
11
needed
he would
he?
5
21
he
that
they
get
Alstory
had managed to --
them
together,
Seemed like
but
a logical
assumption.
)1
.Q.
Did Ciolino
22
he made this
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
Did
offer
he
to
tell
tell
you when in
help
with
you
whether
the
a lawyer?
or
not
it
process
70
1
occurred
before
2
videotape?
or
after
3
A.
No,
he
4
Q·
Did
Ciolino
5
obtained
a
about
That
you
the
found
lawyer,
A.
Correct.
11
Q·
Did
he
was
signed?
Oh,
long
13
A.
14
signed.
The
15
you
we
16
afternoon
17
18
11
when
Q.
spoke
is
she
Right.
20
Q.
I
by
wasn't
Paul
had
Jackson
on
also
much
later.
had
(phonetic),
`or
after
for
the
affidavit
heard
Simon?
Ciolino
Abrams
told
a
aware
was
about
it
was
from
late
in
the
you
--
when
we
lawyer
had
when
lawyer?
that
the
been
Ciolino?
A.
Neither
23
Q.
Are
you
as
that
was
the
case?
that
Inez
conversation
I
22
24
I
made
come down to WB~MTV.
what
that
he
that
the
phdne
that
before
after
she'd
Well,
A.
obtained
that
time
a
that
19
21
do
first
had
out
was
that.
that
Martin
10
affidavit
you
out
Q·
12
tell
found
7
Inez?
me
Margaret
I
9
tell
for
A.
obtained
didn't
statement
lawyer
6
8
the
was
I.
you
sit
here
today
now
aware
71
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q·
Okay.
3
promised
4
that
5
representation?
6
A.
No,
7
Q·
Do you
8
to
he
Do you
pay
would
promised
to
the
legal
incur
I
know
pay
Inez
completely
10
Q·
Did
anyone
for
13
at whether
the
)(
A.
Well,
14
miss-characterizing
15
Q·
16
to
allow
you
say
19
this?
to
you,
A.
No.
21
Q.
Did
23
24
something
A.
moment,
of
to
clear
that
occur
that
should
No,
because
and
I still
you
to
be
that.
you
Inez
all
I think
you
should
is paying
Jackson?
you
are
my investigator.
up.
I will
be happy
up.
you
is
better
you
looked
heard
did
anyone
take
that
my assumption
haven't
fees?
of
to
that.
Ciolino
inve`stigator
that
I am asking
it
not
and
as
clear
Simon
of
legal
say
Simon
professor,
20
or
unaware
him
What
18
unaware
whether
ever
first
We can
17
22
of
Ciolino
Rimland's
or not your
lawyers
Paul
of Alstory
Jackson's
No,
12
fees
am completely
A.
look
whether
through
9
11
know
a
this
ever
look
at
was
at?
until
anything
this
to
the
72
1
contrary,
2
lawyers
my
were
3
4
Q.
I
5
A.
to
7
not
were
9
am
doing
this
Q.
pro
bone
the
two
about
that
Okay.
lawyers
voluntary
two
basis.
questions.
the
a
that
anything
the
that
--
basis
you
refer
and
were
paid.
I
don't
know
anything
about
that,
asked
you
professor.
10
What
I
11
was
12
suggested
that
13
Rimland.
I
14
information
15
A.
Right.
16
Q.
Do
anything
am
you
18
Rimland's
services
19
A.
None.
20
Q.
You
21
arrangements
22
gonna
paid.
by
Ciolino,
any
and
more
don't
know
information
you
will,
of
Simon?
anything
anything
what
Okay?
if
Alstory
there
Jack
develop
that.
if
you
lawyer
procurement,
for
or
to
about
have
I
the
trying
have
Ciolino's
A.
that
got
just
regarding
23
is
Ciolino
you
be
know
promised
17
24
a
know
asking
on
that
on
don't
just
assume
was
this
I
I
being
8
doing
Well,
either.
6
assumption
about
about
how
the
fee
fees
were
paid?
I
don't
know
that
fees
are
gonna
be
73
1
Q.
Fair
2
am
not
3
trying
to
4
That's
all
enough.
trying
to
get
A.
Yeah.
6
Q.
Okay.
When
I
8
told
you
9
you
10
promised
11
interview,
12
13
11
spoke
with
I
to
her
make
That's
Q.
And
as
15
Paul
Ciolino
16
Martin
so
you
professor,
phone
a
with
that
since
to
am
Jury.
Abrams.
day,
I
I
told
lawyer.
surprised
available
I
Grand
things
had
I
mouth.
this
the
Inez
was
here
for
I
18
Q.
Okay.
19
arrangements
io
representation?
do
you
me
for
an
A.
No,
22
Q.
These
bear
and
sitting
do
--
you
the
I
have
am
asking
knowledge
services
of
the
you
that
attorney
Inez?
now.
Do
in
21
Jury
am
procured
Abrams
they
I
sit
A.
Grand
your
same
on
--
correct.
17
24
the
that
because
A.
today
but
in
to
you
--
not
correct?
14
23
words
And
that
that
put
am
information
5
7
I
you
know
connection
I
do
two
am
with
about
fee
that
not.
questions
repeating
I
anything
so
clear.
may
that
have
the
been
record
asked,
and
the
74
1
Did
2
Ciolino
3
Jack
was
paying
4
A.
No.
5
Q·
Did
6
Ciolino
7
legal
was
fees
to
9
Q.
Now,
relationship
11
A.
that
Paul
legal
fees
to
about
with
a dozen
you
Inez
that
Paul
Jackson
Simon's
Abrams?
what
was
Paul
Well,
tell
Margaret
Marty
No.
11
you
Simon's
ever
paying
A.
13
tell
Alstory
anyone
8
12
ever
Rimland?
10
Paul
--
or
what
Ciolino
and
years.
I
is
on
have
this
~een
We worked
your
case?
friends
for
~on several
cases
together.
14
On
15
volunteer
16
help us find
17
ones
18
later
on
19
would
like
20
students
21
else
22
to
23
agreed.
24
anyone
his
in
at
the
this
case
services
may
to
and
be
rely
for
security
times
when
interview
And
asked
to
do
him
data
if
it
agreed.
an
occasion
on
you
to
do
I would
th'e
was
of
sources,
the
then
I
be
than
an
informal
said
I
with
anything
available
and
I
--
interviews
students,
sort
to
which
more
not
would
searches
And
in
purposes
with
so
he
he
base
some of the more elusiv~
Milwaukee,
it
I
to
go
ad
hoc
he
75
1
thing
where
I
2
help
as
3
were
things
4
without
Paul;
5
his
without
opposed
own
7
A.
The
9
confessed.
10
11
with
12
a
13
time
for
and
things
I
There
did
that
on
Paul
our
own
did
on
his
own
things?
thing
--
that
Paul
Alstory
did
Simon
you
he went
up
late
late
have
a
there'
did
on
in
which
he
conversation
to
try
and
obtain
statement?
A.
Yeah,
Q·
The
--
that
night,
previous
night.
15
16
on
the
17
conversation
On
the
Q.
He
called
you
19
A.
He
called
me
20
Q.
And what
11
·
took
place
in
person
or
telephone?
A.
18
to
investigation.
those
of
before
time
students.
were
he
from
students
were
main
Did
him
11
14
my
interview
Q·
him
a joint
my
What
the
to
there
Q.
was
on
that
6
8
call
21
going
to
Milwaukee
22
Wednesday?
23
A.
Wednesday.
24
Q.
The
3rd?
telephone.
did
that
or
you
and
I
he
tell
Friday
called
called
him
you
--
him?
with
I
back.
respect
am sorry
to
76
1
2
A.
Correct.
You and
previous
I had
step
back
for
a
Q-
That's
6
A.
And after
7
out
8
bring
9
day,
if
any
with
my students
the
and
10
so
11
willing
12
and that
correct?
of
Inez
none
Paul
the
15
certainly
16
he
17
there
18
against
19
editorial
20
Saturday's
21
far
22
could
23
handle
24
was
see
her
truth.
to
And
something
knew
him
news
--
in
in
the
fact
from
be
armed
it
him
himself.
following
and
he
Saturday
and
as
him
the
to
the
is
of
because
since
allegations
in
Paul
said
I
heard
he
said
an
previous
to
stay
We thought
next
tell
mentioned
we wanted
when
be
he would,
con~erned
been
dangerous.
morning
he would
a part
Tribune,
the
next
And
That
about
possible.
And
get
be
that
the
that
luck.
had
to
to swing by Alstory
we were
stories
Tribune,
away
good
and
not
He s'aid
we cannot
who we were,
had been
or
he could
said,
find
available
Chicago
whether
if
to
unavailable.
he wanted
see
I
also
down.
in addition
be
down to
I was
to
I wanted
would
Simon
was.
house
14
meeting
my students
be bring
)( Simon's
our
Jackson
I called
the
met
day.
S
13
to
second.
3
4
Well,
he
he
could
from
that
as
him
he
had
77
1
gotten
the
2
Simon
3
preparing
4
Chicago.
videotaped
and
5
Q·
6
conversation
7
pretext
along
10
but
11
what
12
as
13
not
over
at
her
and
her
Did
you
discuss
the
A.
9
was
He said
those
lines.
wasn't
even
he was
saying.
do
these
I
you
it
in
would
family
with
that
he had
he
he
paid
15
A.
No,
he
was
Q.
Was
that
a
only
A.
Other
than
data
base
21
A.
No,
he
22
CBS
23
made
24
was
producer
John
several
done,
copies
I
arranged
see
occasion
18
then
sort
in
it
it,
from
of
wing
whether
it
or
at
all?
where
he
not.
one
He
was
use
services
with
Q.
gonna
his
not
20
this
difference.
for
the
only
of
something
what
and
alone,
the
use
gonna
something
is
to
that
prepared
was
17
this
the
situations
make
in
know
He was
Was
19
him
down
planned?
didn't
sure
help
come
before
I
Alstory
house
to
he
Q.
11
from
Jackson's
that
14
16
Inez
evening
statement
8
confession
thing
he
turned
then
turned
of
for,
your
by
tape
the
tape.
I believe,
yeah,
himself
over
tape
(phonetic)
the
students?
searches,
did
the
Mondello
of
did
And
to
you?
over
to
who
then
when
three
a
that
of
my
78
1
students
2
office
to
to
bring
give
the
to
original
Q.
Two
4
A.
I
5
Q.
Miss
6
A.
McCann.
7
Q.
You came here
this
Grand
A.
Correct.
10
Q·
That
11
A.
Correct
12
Q.
And
with
all
the
that
9
13
14
() return
of
possession
Pitts
A.
Yes.
16
Q·
Okay.
bring
18
A.
19
oversight.
20
because
21
bringing
22
only
23
students
24
meeting
and
Jury
Mr.
today
issued
all
documents
but
at
of
from
served
was
would
to
Northwestern
have
you?
for
in
an oversight
the
your
not
that
today,
it
didn't
believe
notes
that
where
as
bring
that
an
them
my students
with
them
I had
we
you
correct?
describe
convers'ations
agreements
upon
called
you
documents
their
subpoena
case?
It
led
to
week?
respect
I intentionally
flowed
pursuant
last
due
this
I
I was
McCann?
was personally
those
No,
all
to your
believe
about
didn't
tape
students?
15
17
the
you.
3
8
of
had
you
at
said
were
and
that
with
my
our
first
you
were
not
79
1
gonna
issue
2
produce
all
3
a separate
of
Q·
their
well,
4
testified
in
5
of
but
6
described
7
misunderstanding
8
professor
9
have
photos
subpoena
one
Grand
there
of
Jury
is
contained
nothing
would
due
students
that
produced
like
23 pages
what
you
So perhaps
between
a~l
your
has
therein.
is
with
they
notes
indeed
the
and
the
respect,
the
student
and
because
I
the
don't
those.
10
A.
Yeah,
11
Q.
It's
12
to
ask
13
11 return
you
I
quite
will
to
apologize.
you
this
A.
Absolutely.
15
Q.
When
will
you
are
that
while
17
be
18
the
19
turning
20
going
some
brief
notes,
but
the
A.
to
get
you
23
of
all
of
24
not
you
it
their
so.
would
it
-and
return?
depending
simply
a
the
be
possible
Grand
overnight
then
caution
you
throughthere
to
by
notes?
I would
that
be
way
to
be?
wanted
convenience
those
needed
over
memos
me
earliest
thinking
overnight
I simply
with
that
could
your
need
your
Jury
exhibit
Well,
22
right.
testimony
about
21
at
Grand
14
16
all
discuss
may
what's
question
of
Jury
for
and
me
mail
in
to
a copy
whether
or
80
1
Q-
2
professor.
3
time
Okay.
Friday.
My next available
Would that
Q.
Is
7
A.
I have teaching
and
Q.
a school
you?
day?
obligations
between
I ask that
you return
on Friday
me
now
then
with your notes and perhaps if you can get
11
them
to
overnight.
12
13
for
day would be
Thursday.
9
10
it
work
6
8
to set up a
now.
A.
5
may have questions,
I think it would be better
right
4
A.
1)
I
will
do
that.
MR. GAINER: All
14
15
The Grand Jury
right.
A JUROR: Going back to that
made to you after
Porter's
phone call
release.
Taylor
I didn't
16 (lunderstand his expression of remorse: In ""Y way
did you question which testimony he was referring
17
18
to,
19
fact
the
20
21
one that
acquitted
A.
accused
one that
in
him?
He was talking
testimony,
because
22
helped
put
an innocent
23
almost
died
24
him or the
because
about the accusatory
almost
of
his
exact
man on death
words is,
row and he
me.
A JUROR: And yet this
is the same guy that
I
81
before
1
that
2
do with
3
A.
said
this.
I don't
I wish
That's
Can
I
5
The
reason
6
Mr. Porter
7
issue
8
he was concerned
9
house
and
elaborate
dead
back
that
THE FOREPERSON:
12
A JUROR:
A JUROR:
16
11
Thank
A.
he was afraid
he
police
Any
you
Porter
was
Why
is
she observed
Hillard
leave
19
Alstory
Simon.
Though
the
20
mention
Simon.
In
interview
21
that
24
reason
to
the
park
our
present
with
Offie
innocent?
that
together,
all
boyfriend
Inez
Jerry
Jackson
with
and
does
not
her
she
too.
than
she
that
affidavit
A JUROR: But other
they
come to his
her d~ughter
18
fact
he
that?
Green and her daughter's
23
would
stated
Marilyn
22
that
other
17
was
said
of this
correct.
Because
Simon
wanted
you.
that
That's
Taylor
harass.
Professor,
believed
15
Mr.
the
or
11
A.
dead?
that?
because
intimidate
14
on
that
up,
A JUROR:
(1 Green
was already
was because
10
13
Porter
to
right.
4
coming
want to have anything
left
--
but
just
that's
by the
the
said
82
1
A.
No.
2
to
say
that
3
Milwaukee
4
very
strange
5
leave
town.
she
was
told
she
the
next
her
She also
7
had
recently
8
robbery,
9
or
her
10
jewelry
11
was
12
armed
were
robbery
14
one
15
ma'am.
16
way
day
he
and
said,
And
she
18
witnesses
or
19
trial
there
20
put
21
interviewed
22
explain
Porter
Alstory
prison
Simon
for
her
check
assumed
the
saw
Al`sto~ry
Simon
finally~she
to
and
told
in
kill
that
armed
daughter's
the
your
be
her
motive
as
us
an
that
courtroom
daughter,
believable
There
seems
so that
at
is
to
be
testified
at
the
scene
by any
of
least
but
your
at
least
the
in
the
eight
original
four
of
them
that
none
of
them
were
students.
Can you
why?
A.
witnesses?
would
she
I didn't
was
it.
A JUROR:
23
it
with
her
on
for
taken
she
then
found
that
her
encountered
said
and
and
left
friend
that
had
continues
thought
from
So
And
Porter
she
daughter's
missing.
robber.
11 Anthony
she
she
they
and
noted
that
armed
13
17
cash
that
released
she
--
was aware
been
and
says
day,
that
6
24
Then
Why
we
didn't
interview
the
alibi
did
83
1
A JUROR:
2
witnesses
3
shooting?
4
that
A.
5
there
6
concerned
7
those
8
Taylor.
Why
saw
Well,
were
2 key
from
key
that
A.
12
MR.
GAINER:
Q·
Let
14
11
That's
of
at
the
scene
--
of
the
witnesses
one
as
the
dead
as
we were
testimony.
and
were
far
the
the
One of
other
only
the
two
was
William
that
were
correct.
me ask
you a follow-up
question,
professor.
15
16
the
found?
11
13
interview
Porter
reading
Those
you
didn't
witnesses
is
A JUROR:
10
we
witnesses
9
you
You at
reports
that
were
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q·
You
19
other
young
20
police,
21
shooting
22
were
were
the
some
point
obtained
were
aware
not,
same
night
for
that
men who were
you
read
in
the
Mr.
there
interviewed
connection
that
Taylor
police
S~nders?
were
by
with
and
four
the
the
Williams
interviewed?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Those
people
being
Beckwith,
Senior,
84
1
Woodfork,
2
and
A.
3
I
remember
4
to be more consistent
7
account,
they
names,
people
gave
that
with
the
9
Q·
That is to say those
A.
13
() weren't
Q·
15
16
the
11
17
I remember
to
that
discern
of
were.
identified
did
Anthony
he
16,
ZO
RD 290330
A.
glasses,
1982,
Q·
I'd
I will
"Kenneth
attention
supplementary
to
ask
be
the
report.
happy
Edwards
to
have
read
to
4 of
the
under
and Gray?
I don't
you'
page
report
by Salvatore
Unfortunately
but
as
so.
your
authored
Porter
not?
Please
August
the
they ·-- but they
Q.
do
put
night?
one
who they
night,
I direct
21
that
I would have to go back over
19
appeared
Simon
A.
18
an
four people
reading
that
Mr. Edwards
shooter
that
Alstory
bleachers
statements
able
police
remember.
up in the
witnesses'
14
can't
Yes,
I do
not?
I
people
the
night
A.
four
but
saying.
8
12
24
the
happened
6
11
23
are
four
of what
did
correct?
recall
you
Those
account
10
22
don't
what
Q-
5
Edwards,
it
read
was
my reading
to
me.
it.
interviewed
and
he
85
1
related
2
Beckwith and Senior
3
he and three of his friends,
went to the Washington
swimming pool about midnight
on the day in
question,
5
that
6
north
7
gallery area in the uppermost northwest section,
9
16, August '82, Sunday.
he and friends
side,
entered
fence.
He observed
four people
(victims and offender, unknownmale black).
were sitting
and talking
to each other.
and his group proceeded further
11
and he and Eugene Beckwith
12
Approximately
13
out of the pool.
14
and saw a muzzle flash
15
observed the offender
15 minutes
victim
at
point
Kenneth
down the pool area
~enneth had come
from a handgun.
Tony Porter
and fired
blank
He then
standing
2 more ~hots
over
at
the
range."
reading
19
A.
No.
20
Q·
Do you remember reading
four
They
began~ to swim.
later
Do you remember
these
in the
He heard a shot and looked up
11 one of the victims
18
21
Kenneth related
the pool area on the
10
17
Park
4
8
16
Woodfork,
that?
anything
about
anything
that
men?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q·
Okay.
24
A.
I don't
remember
reading
86
1
specifically
2
last
3
and look
4
he came to
part
5
I don't
at
Q·
6
identifying
A.
Yes.
8
Q·
Well,
only
10
place
these
are
No.
12
Q·
That
is
with
him?
interview
the
14
A.
Okay.
15
Q·
Are
16
A.
Am I aware
17
another
you
Q.
Yeah.
19
A.
--
21
Q.
Okay.
22
Woodfork,
23
that
24
the
how it
as the
was that
shooter.
do you have any
reports?
aware
that
Edwards'
that
is
the
name appears
in
only
aware
of
of
summary
of any
that?
whether
or
not
there
is
report
18
20
you
It's
reports?
A.
1(
see
today,
police
Kenneth
11
13
there
these
that
to
Tony Porter
As you sit
of
Porter.
I would have to go back
documents
identify
7
9
recall.
other
recollection
Anthony
that
mentions
the
witness?
I don't
know.
is
A.
But
Senior,
more
Yes.
similar
and
you
are
Beckwith
to
the
aware
give
Alstory
Edwards,
an
account
Simon
account?
87
1
Q·
2
those
And
four
men,
3
A.
No.
4
Q.
You
5
those
four
A.
No.
7
Q.
You
those
four
9
10
11
students
did
they?
didn't
ask
didn't
go
A.
No.
Q.
None of your
of
those
A.
That's
correct.
13
Q.
Okay.
Now,
15
statement
16
11
to
you
by
of
That's
Q.
Did
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q·
When
21
A.
It
18
Ciolino
to
find
out
yourself
and
look
group
ever
for
of
Lee
conducted
any
men?
this
a
Offie
Green
statement
Green,
form
statement
entitled
right?
right.
you
have
an
independent
interview
of
her?
22
saw
23
December.
24
way
Offie
A.
17
Paul
four
12
came
investigate
men?
interview
14
didn't
men?
6
8
your
Anthony
Q.
did
would
Porter
And
were
that
occur?
have
been
at
there
the
the
county
videotapes
same
day
jail
sometime
of
that
that
we
in
88
1
interview?
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
Oh.
4
A.
CBS
5
Q.
Oh.
6
A.
The interview
7
Q·
Oh.
8
the
Well,
interview.
was conducted
let
me ask
by --
you this
question,
professor.
9
How many --
10
there
out
11
that
how many other
tapes
are
there?
A.
12
13
conducted
First
of all,
I don't
have
a copy
of
tape.
-1)
Q·
I
am not
14
This
whole
15
get
16
find out everything
17
that
18
as
19
pending
against
20
ask
this
to
thing
the
you
21
David
about,
23
whether
24
member
Protess,
they
of
your
whole
adversarial
here.
is
We are
just
to
trying
to
you know an~ everything
about
this
professor,
Alstory
thing
truth.
that
know
we
Simon.
case,
have
because
a case
And I am going
to
question:
How many
22
this
of the
students
we talked
to
--
bottom
your
trying
interviews
conduct
were
class,
t'hat
videotaped
or
did
were
you,
videotaped,
by you,
someone
Professor
from
Ciolino,
CBS?
a
89
1
A.
I
2
Q.
who
did?
3
A.
The
interview
4
didn't
correspondent
conduct
at
5
Q·
Were
6
A.
No,
I
present
to
see
Offie
8
home.
At
9
wait.
That
was
good
10
I was gonna
get
to
11
my
and
I
12
interview.
Q·
14
down
interview
15
point
So
you
of
Offie
enough
see
left
Q.
All
right.
17
A.
John
18
producer,
19
at
the
She
They
wasn't
decided
me because
interview
and
CBS
anyway,
not
to
then
conducted
have
from
I understand
and
the
conducted
an
the
producer?
CBS
News
that
he
was
was
the
not
present
time.
Okay.
21
A.
The
interviewer
Are
there
24
interview.
no.
Mondello
Q.
23
the
Green.
the
Who is
"20
22
at
Green?
personally,
but
by a
cameraman.
for
personally
Not
11
a
CBS arrived.
A.
16
and
not
gone
13
conducted
was
We had
studends
News
interview.
present?
7
some
was
CBS
you
the
was
--
Cynthia
Bowers
(phonetic)
11 '
that
Q.
you
did
not
any
participate
more
interviews
in
~hat
like
you
are
this
aware
90
1
of?
2
A.
No.
3
Q-
This
5
A.
That's
6
Q·
So you never talked
7
A.
No, I did not talk
8
Q-
In her statement,
4
is
the only
one that
you know
about?
9
correct.
to her in person?
to her in person.
which I am going to
show you, Grand Jury Exhibit C. I am not going to
10
ask you to read it
to the Grand Jury.
I
am
going
11
to ask you to do the best you can without your
12
reading
13
glasses.
)1
Does that
look
like
the
form?
14
A.
That's
the
15
Q.
And it
came to you in this
17
A.
That's
correct.
18
Q.
And that
16
1)
statement.
unsigned
condition?
19
me when
you
gave
2'0
A.
That's
21
Q·
It's
it
the way you tendered
to
your
23
and the videotape
24
prepared
information
it
to
me?
correct.
from this
22
and
is
about
that
apparently
document
Offie
that
Lee Green and the
you saw that
played
you got all
on the
Cynthia
news
--
Bowers
91
1
sometime?
2
A.
3
between
4
Offie
and
Anthony
Lee
then
Green
So there
6
A.
Post
release.
7
Q-
It's
a tape
9
don't
tape
11
Green's
12
13
that
11 nothing
have
Embracing
--
things.
and
it,
but
Okay --
released
I
it's
a
and Marilyn
from
essentiallylwith
I know
the
almost
said.
Q.
15
exists
he's
and
tape?
showed Porter
after
freed
television.
to do with
these
that
on
another
that
encounter
he was
saw
anything
exists
mother
A.
14
have
I
is
know about
10
after
which
Q·
you didn't
a subsequent
Porter
5
8
16
Yes,
a
)1
Okay.
couple
The
17
to you on the
18
Porter.
All
of
right.
phone
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
He called
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q·
He had
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Did
you
I do
others.
statement
19
I am sorry.
that
Taylor
after
the
your
home?
your
record
home
that
~alled
release
phone
number?
statement?
--
made
of Anthony
92
1
A.
No.
2
Q·
Did
4
A.
No.
5
Q·
Did
3
form
or
7
asked
A.
8
him,
No,
that's
9
MR.
10
anything
you
make
a statement
him
to
I
the
GAINER:
A JUROR:
11
your
13
11 involved
14
--
stay
15
main
thing,
I have
about
that
--
make
up a
1(
execution?
A.
Correct.
A JUROR:
to
anyone?
tried
that
a couple
involved
to
reassure
Porter
case
You
had
was
free.
questions.
going
back
testimony
after
a
of
--
of your
you
phone
--
to
you got
learned
call
from
about
the
an
attorney?
18
A.
19
A JUROR:
Whom
20
A.
I
21
A
22
A.
23
A JUROR:
24
down
Okay.
this
of
it
basically
beginning
in
repeat
just
You got
12
17
write
statement?
6
16
you
the
same
Correct.
No,
JUROR:
you
know
You
knew
But
she
did
not
know?
her.
her?
Uh-hmm.
office
complex
is
-where
she
is
your
associated
--
where
in
the
93
1
friend
who
2
3
is
4
Ciolino.
an
No.
She
solo
practitioner.
A JUROR:
6
your
7
say
8
investigator
9
Alstory
Simon
10
confess
and
11
something,
12
that?
No,
A JUROR:
15
and
he
16
the
morning
A
made
that
as
was
I
shouldn't
interview
getting
a
fat
him
chance,
or
on a Saturday
morning,
on a Wednesday
morning.
morning.
And
for
--
for
to
was
this
is
--
early
with
him
in
recall?
Yes.
JUROR:
And
they
were
actually
'2 O
that
they
had
A.
So
he
had
going
a
cameraman
to
show
him
and
a short
tape
manufactured?
I've
been
told.
have
we
I've
not
seen
the
tape.
23
24
was
Paul
this
to
not
interview
I
19
22
said
A Wednesday
this
when
ultimately
you
that
but
who
question.
--
Milwaukee
with
where
14
18
and
to
another
investigator
to
attorney
connection
have
--
went
A.
A.
I
offices?
penalty
No
your
and
has
a death
investigator
13
17
is
Okay.
When
21
investigator
A.
a
5
is
A
testified
JUROR:
to
Nor
us
that
he
that
produced
I
know
--
of.
he
made
But
such
he
a
94
1
tape
and
2
cameraman
3
then
4
what's
5
shown
he
showed
as
his
at
that
7
A JUROR:
8
A.
A
11
A.
they
had
came
in
And
he
shown
and
this
then
said,
oh,
and an interview
time
on
Did
you
CBS
--
look
was being
News.
Yes.
Yes,
but
JUROR:
he~ had
shown
13
shown
14
students
and
15
referred
to
16
him to
17
it
18
News
19
he
by
know
about
that's
the
that
22
expressed
23
he,
this?
order
he
in
tell
which
it
was
that
had
been
on.
is
it
the
other
his
affidavits
and
the
wife
It
tape
was
happened
him
was
at
over
tell
the
--
coincidence
that
persuade
this
any of
CBS Morning
it
went
a happy
you
buying
watched
to
my
that
to
the
accusing
Paul,
willingness
just
until
And it
to
This
the
trying
and
television.
according
that
and he wasn't'
went
estranged
me
Simon
things
truth,
to
Alstory
gathered
They
us.
described
that
I had
to
to Mr. Ciolino
A JUROR:
opinion?
want
Ciolino,
the
on national
21
him,
among
tell
came
you
way
Paul
according
saw
Do
The
12
24
him.
described.
10
"2 O
to
on television,
A.
was
after
cameraman
6
9
it
and
of
there
murder
that
the
point
line
and
in
your
truth.
happened
95
1
to be on the
2
morning,
3
comes
day
this
that
news
he's
report
A.
Actually
it
and
6
morning
7
A
8
A JUROR: Or could
--
know,
this
in the
interview
they
were
as part
then
of the
JUROR:
the
evening
re-airing
before
it
CBS Morning
the
next
News.
Yes.
it
it
into
have been
the
that,
recorder
you
and showed
it?
A.
12
All
been told
))
of
I can do is
by Mr. Ciolino
A JUROR: So is
the
to
tel`l
you what
I've
in terms of the sequence
events.
14
15
and
he popped
11
13
with
aired
5
10
early
on
4
9
there
night
16
personal
17
and
18
before,
19
ma'am,
20
the
21
couldn't
22
live.
23
the
24
morning
No,
and
it
wouldn't
tell
CBS Morning
I mean,
have
and popped
I'11
have
possible
he -could
cassette
A.
it
have
in
and aired
retrieved
it
had
his
in i;lto
that
night,
as part
own
the TV
I have
occurred.
something
its
was aired
possible,
Because
this
CBS thenthat
confession,
it
been
you why.
News when
popped
it
that
of
So he
aired
the night
footage
a news
seen
from
story.
of
that
So
96
1
it
actually
aired.
2
TKE FOREPERSON:
3
A JUROR: The mother
4
killed,
5
left
7
9
house
A.
think
to
go
I can't
she
8
other
of
questions?
the
daughter
to
the
park?
recall.
It
was
around
retained
and
10
interviews
11
Jury
talked
or
or what
A.
13
11 counsel,
14
obviously
what
to
counsel
might
be
you might
I
understand
that
my other
I
have
no
to
Miss
Armb~ust
students
THE FOREPERSON:
Any other
17
MR. GAINER:
your
19
of the
20
Exhibits
exhibits
A,
B
MR.
GAINER:
22
Q.
The
caution
24
have
For
you,
given
professor,
some
testify
Grand
to?
retained
have
not,
and
questions?
we have
ladies
you copies
asked
to
this
and
of all
point,
C.
other
you
any
this
information,
be furnishing
and
students
you.
that
21
23
I
counsel.
16
I will
in
have
A JUROR:
gentlemen,
Thank
about
said
15
18
dark
said.
A JUROR: Have you or any of your
12
who was
did they -- did they say what time they
her
6
Any
thing
that
is
information
the
I would
Grand
about
like
Jurors
secret
to
today
Grand
1
Jury
97
testi
mony.
the law is
3
the
Concerned
5
talk
You
Said,
in
the
as far as
about
Whether
you about
my opini
On is
may
what
11
12
13
14
I
will
respect
Q.
remember
thatl
that
but
that
I
to tal`k t,
in
the
15
A.
Q.
18
19
Witnesses
because
A.
20
21
22
Q.
about
it~
A.
23
24
What
People
Secret.
another
that
you
SPirit of their
Sure.
16
17
you can
and
WOUldjust ask
Was done
inv estigation.
They talked
had
they
to
Say,
about
and
what ·th~,
that
·,
their
.,,Sure investigating
So I
in
fact
certal"ly
won~t
be
Saying
Grand Surer
right,
this
case.
anything
Neither will I.
A JUROR:Did
you
Say
all
that.
YOUmay want
1awyer about
eve are
Other
Protected
of
Secrecy
thOuSh.
10
A.
Status
know, 'here is
mony.
told
have
I think
thing that
is clear,
JurorsOne
the Grand
9
unclear
Your testi
6
8
Proceedings
It's
about
while
such that~ You
Surrounding
4
And
that
Didyousaythati, shavnl
to
the
Young lady?
98
1
MR.GAINER:
I didn.t say anything about
2
discussing th, testimony of other witnesses
3
because none of you Grand Jurors
4
5
8
9
MR. GAINER:We talked
from the police
report
about what
she
told you she had a lawyer,
I
discussed
with him all of her testimony after her
11
so.
14
15
16
A JUROR:
-11 into
Are
you
or
your
students
finalized?
Wefinalized our research,
students and I are working on other
Protess
appearance
looking
this any further at this stage or
A.
knew
S~enerally
10
13
have
and
the
cases.
THEFOREPERSON:
A,y other 9uestions?
18
(No
response.
19
(Witness
excused.
20
(Investigation
21
22
23
24
any
concerning Ke""eth Edwards,
and I discussed generally, .s Professor
12
17
her
information about what other witnesses have said.
A JUROR:Wetalked about KennethEdwards.
6
7
gave
continues.
you