Firewall sealant and Fire Safety

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05-12-2011, 08:44 AM
Jimzim
#1 Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Arvada, CO
Posts: 12
Can anyone recommend a source for a firewall sealant that can easily be mixed/dispensed in small quantities? Each time
I need a dab, I can use Pro Seal but the shelf life is short and I can't find a small quantity at a reasonable price. What
else might be out there? The high temp RTV is only rated to 600 degrees F.
Thanks in advance! Jim
05-12-2011, 08:47 AM
benbell4140
#2 Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: broussard louisiana
Posts: 116
I have used expired proseal on various things. I wouldn't use it in a fuel tank but I used it on my firewall.
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#3 05-12-2011, 08:48 AM
vfrazier
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mount Vernon, IN
Posts: 304
Keep your ProSeal in the fridge .... you do have a beer fridge in the shop, don't you? It will last for years. No worries
using it for jobs like this.
Vince
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05-12-2011, 09:02 AM
DGlaeser
#4 Firewall sealant...
Pro Seal (for fuel tanks) is NOT a good firewall sealant! I don't know what temp it's good for, but it's nowhere near
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=72087[1/21/2012 9:33:24 AM]
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 725
600F, and it burns.
Vans sells a firewall sealant, but it's not cheap and has to be mixed as well (maybe that's the stuff you are talking
about). I used it to seal my firewall and all the openings I could at that time. The rest got the Hi-Temp RTV.
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05-12-2011, 09:04 AM
#5 DanH
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 2,974
3M Fire Barrier 2000:
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...6EVs6E666666-__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
05-12-2011, 09:13 AM
benbell4140
#6 Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: broussard louisiana
Posts: 116
My plans from vans said use (fuel tank sealant) on skins to seal to firewall flange.
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#7 05-12-2011, 09:20 AM
Andrew Sego
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Collierville, TN
Posts: 54
This is what I used. Flamemaster CS1900 Firewall Sealant. Available from several different vendors.
05-12-2011, 09:30 AM
Vern
#8 Home Depot sells it in the tube
Home Depot sells it in the tube
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05-12-2011, 12:26 PM
DrHolling
#9 Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern
Home Depot sells it in the tube
Which one?
Thanks,
Dave
05-12-2011, 12:37 PM
Ironflight
VAF Moderator / Line Boy
#10 Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Friendswood, Texas
Posts: 8,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHolling
Which one?
Thanks,
Dave
The 3M product that Dan cited is what I bought at Home Depot - expensive tube, but if it lives up to its claims, it should
be well worth it! I used it for the firewall recess on the -3, and will be using it for the rest of the -3 firewall sealing job
as well. Much better high temp properties than Red RTV, FAR better than pro-seal.
Paul
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05-12-2011, 12:40 PM
Andrew Sego
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#11 Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Collierville, TN
Posts: 54
Picking it up locally would be a big plus, since most of the products you'd want are going to be hazmat and incur a big
shipping upcharge.
#12 05-12-2011, 01:42 PM
DanH
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,974
Let's be careful here guys. Best I know Home Depot sells 3M "IC 15WB+ Fire Barrier" and 3M "CP 25WB+ Fire Barrier"
caulks. These are latex products, not silicone, and are only rated for max service temperature of 180F. They are also far
less durable. For example, the silicone sealant has three times the tensile strength and a rated elongation of 500%, both
good things for a dynamic application like an airframe.
Spruce has Fire Barrier 2000+.
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#13 05-12-2011, 06:17 PM
Dan Langhout
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madison, AL USA
Posts: 199
Question for DanH
Any opinions about the relative performance of Flamemaster CS-1900 vs. 3M Fire Barrier 2000+? I didn't know if you
had ever tested the CS-1900.
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05-12-2011, 08:20 PM
Location: NC
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=72087&page=2[1/21/2012 9:34:05 AM]
N941WR
Posts: 6,888
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH
3M Fire Barrier 2000:
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...6EVs6E666666-Ditto for me.
Pro Seal is not a fire barrier, this stuff is.
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05-12-2011, 09:05 PM
DanH
#15 Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Langhout
Any opinions about the relative performance of Flamemaster CS-1900 vs. 3M Fire Barrier 2000+? I didn't know if
you had ever tested the CS-1900.
I know nothing about CS1900 beyond what I just read on the data sheet:
http://www.flamemaster.com/Technicals%20PDF/CS1900.pdf
It looks like very good stuff.
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Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
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05-12-2011, 09:10 PM
Dan Langhout
Posts: 199
Thanks
I've got a tube of 3M Fire Barrier 2000+ in the shop and a couple of SEM tubes of CS-1900 on the way from Sky Geek.
Need to get the firewall sealed no later than Saturday and I'm trying to decide if it's worth waiting for the CS-1900 to
show up.
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Dan Langhout
05-13-2011, 07:29 AM
DanH
Posts: 2,974
Quote:
I've got a tube of 3M Fire Barrier 2000+ in the shop and a couple of SEM tubes of CS-1900 on the way from Sky
Geek. Need to get the firewall sealed no later than Saturday and I'm trying to decide if it's worth waiting for the
CS-1900 to show up.
Ooooo, an opportunity for direct comparison. Won't help your schedule, but I'd burn check CS1900 if you want to send
some.
The only downside I noticed with FireBarrier 2000+ was a tendency to lose its surface adhesion to red hot stainless. On
the "cabin" side it remained perfectly intact but peeled and fell off the glowing vertical surface. The lesson is to use it
where there is some mechanical grip assistance to help it stay in place....corners, edges, holes, inside passages, etc.
Under direct flame it slowly ablated to powder char, which I assume to be mostly the calcium carbonate component.
Thin sections should probably have a metallic shield over the sealant if sealant failure would allow flame penetration.
With a shield FireBarrier 2000 would be pretty bulletproof.
It would be interesting to see how well CS1900 resists peel and char.
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Last edited by DanH : 05-13-2011 at 07:31 AM.
05-13-2011, 07:54 AM
#18 Dan Langhout
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 199
Testing
Well . . . . . I ordered 4 tubes of CS-1900 and I doubt if I would use all four of them anyway. PM me your mailing
address and I'll send you one as soon as I get them in.
(edit: FedEx now says Monday the 16th)
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Dan Langhout
Last edited by Dan Langhout : 05-13-2011 at 08:12 AM.
05-13-2011, 08:45 AM
FredMagare
Location: Kyle, TX
Posts: 412
Is High-Temp RTV suitable? Or does it dry out and crack? How about fuel tank sealant covered (protected) with
aluminum tape? Might that be suitable?
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05-13-2011, 10:53 AM
868RM
Location: lena, il.
Posts: 34
3M sealant
I am close to sealing my firewall and saw this post so I didn't even need to do a search. Thanks for the info Dan. I
purchased (1) case (12) 10.3 oz. tubes on E-Bay for $67.00 delivered. Part # 98-0400-5299-9 3M Fire Barrier 2000+ (
use by date 3/10/12 ). If I can help someone out I will ship out a few tubes. I can't believe I will need more than 1 to 3
tubes at best. Thanks Ron RV- 8a 815-291-8864
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05-13-2011, 03:35 PM
Lars
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I've used both CS-1900 and Fire Barrier 2000+ (but haven't burn-tested either product).
The OP asked about a material suitable for small dabs. That wouldn't be CS-1900. Once you mix it in the SEM cartridge
you can slow the reaction by freezing it, but you won't stop it. I used the CS-1900 to seal the firewall recess and some
spots around the lower edges of the firewall where it intersects the skin. I put the leftover back in the freezer. When I
checked it a week later it was useless. Besides that, it's curious material. It's a polysulfide, but unlike regular "proseal",
it's barely sticky at all. To the point that I wondered if it would stay put when cured. It does though; once it kicks it
adheres well.
Fire Barrier 2000+ on the other hand is a type of silicone sealer. Like any silicone it'll last for quite a while as long as
it's not exposed to the atmosphere. Since the cartridge I got had a nozzle with no cap, I just put a piece of clear
packing tape over the tip when I'm done. This stuff is sticky, like any silicone. And like any silicone, at least when I
handle it, the stuff defies gravity and gets all over me. Occupational hazard.
Also: Fire Barrier 2000+ is intuminescent; it swells mightily when it gets hot. The stuff is really meant to go inside
crevices or (for example) a tubular firewall penetration. There, it'll swell up and seal in the face of heat or fire. Dan's
previous testing showed that it doesn't adhere well at all to an exposed surface. Using it as a fillet sealant will keep out
fumes under normal circumstances, not sure how effective it would be in a fire.
I know nothing about CS-1900's behavior under the same circumstances. My application of CS-1900 was both as a fay
sealant and as a fat fillet at firewall gaps in the corners. Dan, it would be interesting to learn the result of any test you
do. I've been suspicious of those fillets ever since I applied them, though under normal conditions the stuff is staying
put.
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Lars Pedersen
Davis, CA
(no longer wingless) RV-7
05-13-2011, 05:17 PM
[email protected]
#22 CS 1900 in a can... mix it yourself as needed
CS 1900 can be purchased as a two part mix in a can... easy to make a small batch as needed and pretty economical.
can be hard to find a source so here is a link http://www.sealpakcoinc.com/
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: WA
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Last edited by [email protected] : 05-13-2011 at 05:36 PM.
05-13-2011, 05:27 PM
jay.pearlman
Location: Port Angeles WA
Posts: 63
3M
I talked to 3M about their products. The 2000+ is good to 300F. It is meant for fireplaces and not for commercial
construction. Under heat, it turns black. It can be replaced by scraping it off and adding more. May or may not be
appropriate - 3M support was not comfortable with its use in our environment.
05-13-2011, 05:38 PM
DanH
Posts: 2,974
Lars, I earlier assumed Fire Barrier 2000+ to be intumescent but after studying the MSDS sheet I'm not so sure. Didn't
think about it at the time, but my photo record of burn sessions doesn't show much (if any) swelling typical of
intumescent products. And, the MSDS doesn't list vermiculite, just calcium carbonate. There are ways to make calcium
carbonate products intumescent, so I dunno. I'll look more closely at that particular aspect when I heat some along with
the CS1900.
FWIW the 3M latex fire caulks do list vermiculite.
The primary advantage of an intumescent product is the ability to swell and seal a hole left behind when something else
burns away or melts. A good example would be a plastic pipe passing through a concrete wall in a building. The fire
melts the pipe but the hole is immediately sealed. In the airplane app we have push-pull cables and wires passing
through the firewall, but they are mostly steel or copper and won't entirely burn away in any case. So do we really need
an intumescent?
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RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
05-13-2011, 06:23 PM
Lars
Location: Davis, CA
Posts: 541
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
CS 1900 can be purchased as a two part mix in a can... easy to make a small batch as needed and pretty
economical.
can be hard to find a source so here is a link http://www.sealpakcoinc.com/
More good info. When I got mine, the only way I could find it was in SEM tubes. In fact I got it from Van's. They had it
in stock but would not ship. I had business in Portland, so I stopped by & bought two tubes. Then brought it home by
(ahem...) other means. It does stink to high heaven. It's been some time since I looked at the MSDS, but I remember
that the contents made it obvious why it had become a hazmat substance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay.pearlman
Maybe it's my cynical side, but I'm not surprised that 3M would be uncomfortable, though maybe I'm reading their
response wrong. Interesting that's it's only good to 300°F. My recollection was that it was dependent on whether or not
it was exposed to direct flame. Thanks for calling 3M. I'm as guilty as anyone of discussing technical data with everyone
except those who are likely best-qualified to have the answers.
Quote:
Lars, I earlier assumed Fire Barrier 2000+ to be intumescent but after studying the MSDS sheet I'm not so sure.
Didn't think about it at the time, but my photo record of burn sessions doesn't show much (if any) swelling typical
of intumescent products. And, the MSDS doesn't list vermiculite, just calcium carbonate. There are ways to make
calcium carbonate products intumescent, so I dunno. I'll look more closely at that particular aspect when I heat
some along with the CS1900.
FWIW the 3M latex fire caulks do list vermiculite.
The primary advantage of an intumescent product is the ability to swell and seal a hole left behind when
something else burns away or melts. A good example would be a plastic pipe passing through a concrete wall in a
building. The fire melts the pipe but the hole is immediately sealed. In the airplane app we have push-pull cables
and wires passing through the firewall, but they are mostly steel or copper and won't entirely burn away in any
case. So do we really need an intumescent?
Thanks, Dan. So far I've used the 2000+ on small stuff. I still have an unused tube of CS-1900 in the freezer at my
hangar (you do have a mini fridge in your hangar, don't you?) awaiting installation of the top forward skin. The SEM
cartridge contains lots more than I'll need, so I have the option of using the excess to seal the metal penetrations I
have for electrical conductors (took the easy way out and used Safeair1 kits).
__________________
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Davis, CA
(no longer wingless) RV-7
05-13-2011, 07:53 PM
DanH
#26 Quote:
Originally Posted by jay.pearlman
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,974
302F is a max service temperature, the long term static environment, not the firestop condition. The ASTM E814
firestop test subjects the sample (a combination of products in a specific construction) to radiant temperatures of 15002000F using a 5ft x 5ft furnace containing a 1.5 million BTU burner.
Another illustration; I previously mentioned the 3M latex fire caulks have a max service temperature of only 180F. They
incorporate vermiculite, the classic intumescent firestop material, which doesn't even begin to expand until about 600F.
While you're thinking about it, consider the standard silicone firesleeve on your hoses. The CS1900 may be better...we'll
see.
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RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
05-23-2011, 03:52 PM
dpansier
Location: Green Bay, WI (GRB)
Posts: 234
Cotronics Resbond 907GF
Many years ago I used Cotronics Resbond 907GF in a OEM application and recently tested it for sealing firewall
penetrations and holes.
The product exhibits very good bonding qualities and adheres well to stainless steel.
I tested the product by simulating firewall small hole plugging and bonding by "gluing" two pieces of stainless steel
together. After curing overnight I was able to break the bond by prying with a screwdriver but was impressed with the
strength as I did no prep to SS.
I exposed the cured product to a torch and heated the SS/ Resbond to red hot condition, I observed no smoke or odor
and after cooling the bond was just as strong.
Based on my previous OEM use and recent testing, I believe this product to be ideal for firewall use.
Data sheet link:
http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/pdf/907gf.pdf
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#28 05-24-2011, 07:35 PM
rv7charlie
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 390
If the HD stuff stocked at your local store really is inadequate, you might try a well stocked electrical supply house that
serves commercial/industrial electricians. A lot of commercial building codes, like automotive regs, can make aviation
requirements look wimpy.
I think the buzz word to look for is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intumescent
Charlie
#29 05-25-2011, 11:54 PM
SHIPCHIEF
Here is what we use at work:
http://www.nelsonfirestop.com/
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 419
Now in our application, which is a US Coast Guard certified Ferry Boat, the Nelson Transit (mct) is what cables use to
penetrate a fire boundary bulkhead.
Red rubber type blocks fill around the wires, in a flange collar welded into the bulkhead. Mineral wool and the red RTV
like product are used on older transits.
This company specializes in the application refered to in this post, but mostly buildings and ships.
I think th CLK silicon caulk, and the Puttybar might be applicable to us?
I hope Dan H or someone who is good with MSDS and Tech sheets might find something here?
For myself; I have a RV-8 QB fuse, and have done nothing yet about 'structural fire protection'.
I have an experimental engine, so I know this is important.
Ground running is one thing; I can shut down, jump out and grab the garden hose or fire extinguisher, but now I have
an N number and I've fitted the wings, so...I need to get serious about the risks involved.
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Last edited by SHIPCHIEF : 05-26-2011 at 12:24 AM.
05-26-2011, 07:21 AM
DanH
Posts: 2,974
A variety of popular sealants have arrived here, with one more on the way. I will give them **** (literally) and report,
hopefully in a week or so.
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Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
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05-26-2011, 09:06 AM
bkthomps
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 707
i eagerly await your results
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05-26-2011, 09:22 AM
rocketbob
#32 Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 1,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpansier
Many years ago I used Cotronics Resbond 907GF in a OEM application and recently tested it for sealing firewall
penetrations and holes.
http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/pdf/907gf.pdf
Hi Don, where does one get this stuff?
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05-26-2011, 09:57 AM
flyingriki
#33 Order from them:
https://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/order.htm
I wonder about the small tube fo 907. Seems to be very high temp too and smaller, maybe cheaper...?
2300°F Resbond™ 907GF Adhesive & Sealant
This moist, creamy putty is easily applied from standard caulking cartridges for use from -300°F to 2300°F.
Just apply to steel, stainless, iron, most metals, ceramics, ceramic cloth, tapes, gaskets, tadpole gaskets, etc.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: California
Posts: 107
907GF air dries in 4-12 hours at room temp. (curing may be accelerated with mild heat) and is resistant to most
chemicals, solvents, oxidizing and reducing atmospheres, aging, thermal cycling and electricity.
Use for bonding, sealing and repairing exhaust systems, fire brick, gas turbines, brazing fixtures, equipment, stacks, etc.
Ideal for use in any high temperature Assembly, Production, Repair or Maintenance Application.
Last edited by flyingriki : 05-26-2011 at 10:03 AM.
05-26-2011, 10:02 AM
civengpe
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingriki
Order from them:
https://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/order.htm
$20.75 for the 11 oz tube. Salesman said that it has a 6 month shelf life from the shipping date.
Shannon
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Empennage and Wings Complete
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05-26-2011, 10:18 AM
dpansier
Posts: 234
Resbond 907
I sent a sample of the Resbond 907GF Adhesive & Sealant to Dan Horton so I suggest holding off purchase. I believe it
will perform well in this application but Dan's testing will confirm.
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Green Bay, WI (GRB)
RV-7 Finish Kit
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#36 05-26-2011, 04:57 PM
Jamie Aust
Quote:
A variety of popular sealants have arrived here, with one more on the way. I will give them **** (literally) and
report, hopefully in a week or so.
Hi Dan, will you be testing RED RTV 736 ?
This is what my friend at Boeing said they still use. I just had a read on the back of the tube and it said "When heated
to temps above 150C (300F) can form formaldehyde vapor" This is a potential cancer hazard.
What can I expect the temps to get up to under my cowl in normal flight ?
Thanks
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05-26-2011, 05:54 PM
DanH
Posts: 2,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Aust
Hi Dan, will you be testing RED RTV 736 ?
I wasn't planning on that particular product (Dow Corning, yes?), but I do intend to stop by the local auto parts store
and pick up a tube of "Permatex Ultra Copper". It seems to be the common-as-dirt choice for a high temp silicone
sealant here in the States.
Quote:
What can I expect the temps to get up to under my cowl in normal flight ?
We're not yet into the really hot time of year here in Alabama, but I've been seeing inflight air temperatures around
250F exiting the bottom of a cylinder head and around 160F exiting the oil cooler. I've not measured temps after
shutdown, but I'd bet money on 200-250F. Obviously radiant heating could go higher in proximity to an exhaust pipe.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
Last edited by DanH : 05-26-2011 at 05:58 PM.
06-12-2011, 08:16 AM
DanH
#38 Ok, here we go. Sorry to take so long. Had to assemble a new fire rig as the old one was long ago dismantled and
recycled, and I decided to allow plenty of cure time for the test materials.
First, the candidates:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,974
Cotronics Resbond 907GF (courtesy of Don Pansier)
Rectorseal Biotherm 100 (courtesy Dan Langhout)
Flamemaster CS1900 (courtesy Dan Langhout)
3M FireBarrier 2000
Permatex Ultra Copper
Practical notes, not fire related:
All are single-component except for CS1900, which requires mixing.
Resbond doesn't tool very well. The three silicones (Biotherm, FireBarrier, Ultra Copper) tool, well, like silicones;
FireBarrier and Ultra Copper do best in this group. CS1900 is nothing like proseal and doesn't really tool at all. It is
more like a blob of uncured rubber or playdough.
The silicones stick well, the Resbond a little less so, and the CS1900 is not very adhesive.
When cured, Resbond is hard. The silicones are what you would expect. The CS1900 feels like soft tire rubber.
The setup:
18 x 24 sheet of stainless firewall material. At the top are simple strips of sealant on the front and back of the panel
(staggered). At the bottom we have actual firewall electrical penetrations, very basic; 6-gauge tefzel wire through plastic
snap bushings, then covered with sealant, without SS shields. I selected this sort of pass-through because they are
commonly seen on experimental aircraft. On the left is a personal experiment, the pass-through style on my own
airplane, a 2"x2" .032 plate with a 1.5" long .035 tube, welded 4130. The cable, wires, or whatever is inserted, then the
tube is pumped full of sealant.
Here's the back of the panel. I made a point of equally filling each snap bushing with sealant
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
06-12-2011, 09:06 AM
#39 DonFromTX
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 1,215
Great testing Dan, I can hardly wait for the results.
__________________
AF1 (was RV12) EAB Air Force One, SN 461, N461DG VIKING/HONDA ENGINE POWERED!
A&P, PP-SEL, Pathological Flier
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Retired US Army Officer
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/catego...903&category=0
06-12-2011, 09:52 AM
DanH
#40 Bring on the heat.
First the burn rig was calibrated to approx 2000F using copper sheet. Note that (compared to previous firewall tests) I
have reworked the torch nozzle to obtain a tighter, more horizontal hot spot pattern. Also note that none of the sealant
samples here are actually in the 2000F hot spot.
Let's go closer:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,974
Approx 30 seconds into the burn. The CS1900 has burst into flame. All three silicones are also outgassing flammable
material, but not like the CS. The Ultra Copper sample is the worst of the silicones in this regard. The burn exhibited by
these four samples is not entirely a bad thing, as the probable operating scheme is to form an insulating char. The
Resbond appears to be inert. Compare the silicones to the previous setup photo and you'll see the Biotherm and
FireBarrier samples are exhibiting some degree of intumescence, swelling and expanding. Now look at the 6-gauge
wires; so far all the sealant samples are holding up ok (even if outgassing flammable material), but the wire insulation
is burning away. I point this out because sometimes I bump into a builder who assumes Tefzel insulation to be
fireproof.....it ain't so.
Back of the panel at about 45 seconds:
Hmmm...the Ultra Copper strip sample has burst into flame. The Biotherm sample had flamed slightly and then fallen
away leaving some adhered residue. The CS1900 has peeled and fallen away cleanly, not even leaving a mark. Resbond
and FireBarrier are doing fine.
Looking at the steel pass-through, we see intumescent FireBarrier squeezing out of the gaps in the joint. Same is true
at the plastic bushing (center). So far all the plastic bushings are holding up ok, which means all the sealants are doing
a decent job of slowing heat transfer; in thick sections they are serving as insulators.
Front of the panel at about 1 minute:
All the pass-through samples have remained intact and formed an insulating char. Of the strip samples, only the
CS1900, FireBarrier, and Resbond remain adhered. The difference is mechanical; the 6-gauge wire is keeping the sample
in place over each of the bushings. There's a lesson here; give your sealant a mechanical advantage!
Back of the panel at about 1-1/2 minutes:
The snap bushings are now melting. The copper wire cores are very hot, so the tefzel insulation is beginning to soften
and swell. All the strip samples have peeled away, except for the Resbond.
More later.
__________________
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RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
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06-12-2011, 02:16 PM
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#41 Experimental Chaos
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Fairfield, CA
Posts: 115
Envalope Please......
Augh! Don’t make me think, it looks like there are pros and cons, to several firewall sealants. Dan, what would you use,
with what you know now, to seal a firewall?
__________________
Mike Mason
Fairfield, CA
RV-7 QB Working on Wings, Fuselage & Sanity
VAF 1351
AOPA 04067557
EAA 837577
[email protected]
06-12-2011, 03:38 PM
DanH
#42 Full failure at less than 2 minutes; the bushings melt, leave a gap, and hot gas is free to do its thing. The CS1900 and
Resbond plugs remain pretty much intact and block most of the opening, while the wire stubs collapse the soft silicone
chars and fall out of the holes.
I've moved the torch to aim directly at the welded steel pass through; note the new location of the glowing hot spot.
The intumescent FireBarrier is squeezing out everywhere. The fitting remains gas tight despite the heat.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,974
Front side again. The CS1900, FireBarrier, and Resbond strips are still hanging. The torch is aimed directly at the welded
tube fitting, which is glowing red. In another minute or two the red hot copper wire core will ignite the tefzel insulation
on the opposite side, at which point I ended the burn.
Hot-side chars collected post-burn. They are soft and fragile, puffballs really:
Note the CS1900 char still intact on the wire. It was tougher than the silicone chars. Also note the Resbond strips.
Although entirely intact, they released from the stainless with no effort.
Conclusions are subjective, and my opinion...
CS1900 looks like an excellent sealant for use between fay surfaces and in thick sections with mechanical fixation. Good
resistance to direct flame but with a lot of smoke and burning, so I'd be very careful about allowing any more than a
trace to show on the cabin side of a firewall. Adhesion is poor. Mixing is a PITA.
Resbond can be called fireproof for our purposes, or close to it. I noticed no smoke or outgassing. The catch is its
hardness; it has little flexibility when cured and none after heating, when it become about like a charcoal briquette. I did
a separate test by applying a sample to stainless sheet. After cure I bowed the stainless 20 degrees and the Resbond
strip popped off intact; it doesn't bend. Although the hands-down champ for fire resistance if used in the absence of flex
or vibration, I doubt it will stay sealed in a highly dynamic application. Still, very interesting material...
FireBarrier is easily the best of the silicones. It has excellent cold adhesion and about the same hot adhesion as
Resbond. Obviously flexibility and dynamic sealing is good. The char is not as tough as CS1900 char and may blow away
in high velocity air, and for the same reason is not as resistant to direct flame exposure. It is highly intumescent,
expanding to fill voids as other components burn away.
Biotherm had poor hot adhesion. Ultra Copper also had poor hot adhesion and was surprisingly flammable. I'd pass on
both.
None are "best". Each has particular properties which need to be carefully considered for a particular application. Sorry,
building airplanes requires some thought.
Me? I used FireBarrier silicone in two ways.
Cables and wires got tubular steel fittings like the one in this test. In the real world FireBarrier is intended for fire
sealing cable and pipe passages through walls and ceilings. The surface char insulates the remaining sealant, which is
well supported inside the passageway. If the pipe or wire burns away the intumescent property seals the void. No
surprise that the same principles work in this airplane adaptation.
The firewall perimeter got a filet of FireBarrier before adding the foil/insulator sandwich, the edges of which were sealed
with another filet.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
06-12-2011, 05:11 PM
Jamie Aust
#43 Join Date: May 2005
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 395
Outstanding job Dan !
Thanks for doing the test and showing the results.
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Jamie lee
Brisbane, Australia
RV7A - Now Flying.
0-360,carb,catto 3 blade.
VH-XJL
My Build Log
06-12-2011, 06:02 PM
Experimental Chaos
#44 THANK YOU DAN!
I agree with Jamie, Outstanding! Truly, you may never know, but you could have very well saved someone’s life though
your efforts. I’ve seen on other threads, where people have responded, “ya, ya, but I think I’ll just use bubble gum,
because I don’t plan on having an engine fire.” It’s truly a chilling idea, that that could be their last thought.
Thank you again, for your efforts, and insight!
__________________
Mike Mason
Fairfield, CA
RV-7 QB Working on Wings, Fuselage & Sanity
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Fairfield, CA
Posts: 115
VAF 1351
AOPA 04067557
EAA 837577
[email protected]
06-13-2011, 06:56 AM
#45 Dan Langhout
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 199
Many Thanks!
Thanks Dan for your efforts! One useful outcome for me is that as good as CS-1900 seems to be, it doesn't appear that
it has any particular advantage over Firebarrier 2000+ for standard firewall sealing uses (e.g. sealing the joints between
the skin and firewall flange or other fay sealing situations).
Quote:
<snip>
Me? I used FireBarrier silicone in two ways.
Cables and wires got tubular steel fittings like the one in this test. In the real world FireBarrier is intended for fire
sealing cable and pipe passages through walls and ceilings. The surface char insulates the remaining sealant,
which is well supported inside the passageway. If the pipe or wire burns away the intumescent property seals the
void. No surprise that the same principles work in this airplane adaptation.
</snip>
I am taking this approach as well (tubular fittings) but was intending to use clamped firesleeve inside and outside the
tube due to maintenance/serviceability issues. (I did make my own tubes - thanks Dan!) Just filling the tube with
sealant is much simpler and obviously works fine. I would just be concerned with the difficulty of, say, replacing a
control cable and trying to dig all that sealant out of the tube later. Any thoughts?
__________________
Dan Langhout
06-13-2011, 09:21 AM
DanH
Posts: 2,974
Quote:
....as good as CS-1900 seems to be, it doesn't appear that it has any particular advantage over Firebarrier 2000+
for standard firewall sealing uses (e.g. sealing the joints between the skin and firewall flange or other fay sealing
situations).
The CS1900 is more resistant to direct flame and has a tougher char, but neither matters much in a fay seal. On the flip
side, I was surprised to see how much flame and smoke it generated in the course of forming that char.
Quote:
I am taking this approach as well (tubular fittings) but was intending to use clamped firesleeve inside and outside
the tube due to maintenance/serviceability issues.....Just filling the tube with sealant is much simpler and
obviously works fine. I would just be concerned with the difficulty of, say, replacing a control cable and trying to
dig all that sealant out of the tube later. Any thoughts?
Yeah, the "pump it full" method is fast and easy to install, but I'd hate to try adding a few new wires to a bundle. Not
so worried about engine control cables. I'd be replacing them for a reason so I wouldn't care about trashing them during
removal.
Perhaps a mix of the two methods? In the building construction firestop application, the core of the pass-through is
often packed with a fiber insulator around the pipes or wires, then the sealant is applied in a layer over the fiber, sort of
like a rubber stopper in each end of a packed tube.
All design is a matter of carefully considered compromise.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
06-13-2011, 10:25 AM
#47 Mike S
crusty
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Cameron Park Ca "o61"
Posts: 6,331
Dan for President
Dan, I will echo the sentiment others have already put out there.
Your efforts are a real asset to the entire VAF community, and there is a good chance you may save someone from a
future injury, or death.
The photos of various products failing miserably are pretty convincing to this old fireman.
I will be removing my firewall insulation before my next flight, based on your testing.
I think the information in this thread is of such value, I am going to make it a "sticky" for easier finding in the future.
And added "fire safety" to the title.
Again, thanks for all your efforts, and for sharing them with us.
__________________
Mike Starkey
Rv-10, N210LM.
VAF 909
EAA 512
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or
doing anything about it."
Last edited by Mike S : 06-13-2011 at 10:36 AM.
06-13-2011, 02:06 PM
bkthomps
Posts: 707
DanH, is it possible to use the 3M firebarrier multiple times? How are you storing it for reuse (if so)
__________________
Brian
RV-4 - Flying!
06-13-2011, 04:48 PM
DanH
#49 Quote:
Originally Posted by bkthomps
DanH, is it possible to use the 3M firebarrier multiple times? How are you storing it for reuse (if so)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,974
It's like any other RTV silicone...seal it from the atmosphere. I tape up the cut nozzle with aluminum foil duct tape.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
06-13-2011, 06:48 PM
chaskuss
Location: SE Florida
Posts: 976
Another test requested
[quote=DanH;549778]Ok, here we go. Sorry to take so long. Had to assemble a new fire rig as the old one was long
ago dismantled and recycled, and I decided to allow plenty of cure time for the test materials.
First, the candidates:
Cotronics Resbond 907GF (courtesy of Don Pansier)
Rectorseal Biotherm 100 (courtesy Dan Langhout)
Flamemaster CS1900 (courtesy Dan Langhout)
3M FireBarrier 2000
Permatex Ultra Copper
snipped
Dan,
Sorry, but I'm very late coming to this thread. Thanks to everyone, especially Dan, for all the comments & ideas. I
believe, however, that I have one consideration that no one has mentioned yet. How will these products hold up in the
presence of aviation fuel and oil??? A great product which dissolves in gasoline or oil is next to worthless it would seem
to me.
I ask, because silicone based products like the Permatex Ultra Copper are dissolved by gasoline. As an auto mechanic, I
used to regularly use gasoline as a solvent to clean RTV silicone from auto parts. I'm sure many of you will recall the
disastrous results pilots have had when they used RTV on carburetor parts. [ A number of forced landing caused by RTV
ending up jamming float needles are listed in the archives of this forum]
Since the 3M Fire Barrier 2000 is silicone based, I wonder how it would hold up on the front side of the firewall, where
it will be exposed to fuel and oil??
I note that the CS 1900 is listed as "fluid resistant". I believe that this is the sort of consideration that takes place when
one designs a product for a specific environment [like an aircraft's FWF]
Perhaps it would be wise to cure these products and submerge them in 100LL and 93 octane auto fuel for a few days to
see what happens to them. Obviously, the 3M product is only partly silicone, so perhaps it will hold up? Or maybe the
other components in it will fair even worse when combined with fuel?
For those of you who already have Fire Barrier 2000 installed, it may be best to take care when fuel is spilled onto the
firewall to clean it off immediately. My experience with fuel and silicone products is that exposure for a short period is
not a big problem. Continued contact IS an issue. How about a solvent test Dan??
Perspiring minds want to know! :-)
Charlie Kuss
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06-13-2011, 10:04 PM
DanH
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Quote:
How about a solvent test...
I have plenty of cured CS1900 and more FireBarrier. No trouble to submerge samples in oil. Heck, I've had some
urethane rubber samples in oil more than two years. Same for proseal samples in MEK/lacquer thinner mix, and in 3%
hydrogen peroxide.
Fuel? If you have that much fuel spraying around the engine compartment perhaps it would be best to review the burn
tests again
Quote:
The photos of various products failing miserably are pretty convincing to this old fireman.
None of these products failed miserably. Some exhibit unexpected issues and some are pushed to the outer limits of
their performance or beyond. The idea is to study how they work and how they fail, then create ways to use them
effectively.
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Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
06-14-2011, 01:10 AM
Mike S
crusty
#52 Thread drift--Quote:
None of these products failed miserably. .
My apologies, I was not too clear was I??
The reference was to the firewall insulation you did the burn test on.
Thanks again for all the effort, and sharing of the knowledge
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Mike Starkey
Rv-10, N210LM.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Cameron Park Ca "o61"
Posts: 6,331
VAF 909
EAA 512
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or
doing anything about it."
06-14-2011, 04:39 AM
chaskuss
Location: SE Florida
Posts: 976
Quote:
snipped
Fuel? If you have that much fuel spraying around the engine compartment perhaps it would be best to review the
burn tests again
snipped
Dan
I see your point. However, I was thinking more along the lines of fuel being spilled during maintenance, etc. I look
forward to the added tests.
Charlie
06-15-2011, 08:52 PM
dpansier
Posts: 234
First off I would like to thank Dan for his efforts in furthering safety with his testing and detailed summaries, inflight fire
certainly ranks #1 with me and I will continue to reduce it's effects and minimize the risk on my aircraft.
I mentioned in a earlier post that I had used Resbond as a OEM of packaging equipment, a little background:
Our application consisted of a tubular electric heater and sealer assembly that operated at about 1000°F and recepicated
at a rate up to 800CPM.
The design criteria required a product that would insulate at the 1000°F working and possible higher failure
temperatures, stand up to the high cyclic loads, and not produce any hazardous gases should we lose control and have
a thermal runaway.
All of the products we selected performed well at the normal operating temperatures, where the products failed (with
the exception of the Resbond) was in the thermal runaway condition where they produced hazardous gases.
We selected Resbond in 1982 and it is still used in this and other applications to this day.
Dan pointed out in his post the importance of mechanical bonding, I could not agree more. As he identified, the one
disadvantage of Resbond is it lacks the flexibility of the other products requiring some design thought to insure the
product stays locked into the intended position.
Thanks again Dan.
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Green Bay, WI (GRB)
RV-7 Finish Kit
VAF #586
W9LYX
06-17-2011, 08:34 AM
DanH
Posts: 2,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpansier
...the one disadvantage of Resbond is it lacks the flexibility of the other products requiring some design thought
to insure the product stays locked into the intended position.
Actually I think mechanical fixation is a sensible requirement for all the materials. Some stuck in this burn test, but if I
hooked a shaker to that stainless panel I'd bet none of the strip samples would remain adhered when heated.
Cold sealing is another story ("cold" being less than 300F). Obviously the silicone sticks well and will remain absolutely
gas-tight, the key requirement when the airplane is not on fire. Our engine compartments are full of carbon monoxide
and our cockpits are enclosed; we must not allow air exchange.
My only concern for Resbond is cohesive or adhesive failure, cracking or disbonding from a collection of vibrating
sheetmetal flying in close formation and thus losing a gas-tight seal. For example, consider a filet to close the openings
where the firewall flange, fuselage shell and cowling mount hinge all meet. For sure the firewall vibrates and the hinge
section is worse; we've all seen 'em with the eyes broken off.
I don't have any more Resbond here or I'd set up some vibration tests. Somebody should, because Resbond is by far
the closest thing to fireproof you'll ever squeeze from a tube.
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Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
06-17-2011, 09:04 AM
DanH
Posts: 2,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
The reference was to the firewall insulation you did the burn test on.
Ok, the rest of the story...
Some time ago Mike sent a sample of the insulation installed on the cabin side of his RV-10 firewall. It came to him via
a third party rather than a vendor. Mike didn't know for sure what it was, and he had become concerned. Although I
could not identify the brand with certainty, I was pretty sure it was a polyester fiber insulation similar to a sample
previously tested, and probably the same as that involved in a recent RV-10 incident. I suggested he remove it ASAP.
This weekend my buddy Stan and I were standing around the shop enjoying a cool one after doing the sealant burn and
I remembered Mike's sample, still in the envelope on the shelf. We walked outside, clamped it to a stainless panel, and
hit the burner. This was 15-20 seconds later:
In this photo the burner has been turned off almost a minute. Consider how long that minute might be in the air.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
08-18-2011, 07:31 AM
prkaye
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,825
foil/insulator sandwich
Quote:
The firewall perimeter got a filet of FireBarrier before adding the foil/insulator sandwich,
Dan, what product did you use for the sandwich? Engine or cabin side? How did you attach it to firewall?
__________________
Phil Kaye
RV9A (SB)
Flying since July 2010!
Ottawa, Canada
08-18-2011, 04:58 PM
DanH
#58 On the engine side, I'd suggest ordinary Fiberfrax felt (available Wicks, Spruce, etc) under stainless steel foil, attached
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,974
with SS pop rivets and sealed around the perimeter with 3M Firebarrier 2000. Common 24" wide SS foil is fine, actually
preferred. Overlap a mid-panel seam about 2 inches and cover it with one strip of aluminum foil tape. In a fire the
aluminum tape will melt away instantly and provide a directed escape path for the outgassing binder in the Fiberfrax.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
08-18-2011, 05:13 PM
scard
#59 Quote:
On the engine side, ordinary Fiberfrax felt (available Wicks, Spruce, etc) under stainless steel foil, attached with
SS pop rivets and sealed around the perimeter with 3M Firebarrier 2000. Common 24" wide SS foil is fine,
actually preferred. Overlap a mid-panel seam about 2 inches and cover it with one strip of aluminum foil tape. In
a fire the aluminum tape will melt away instantly and provide a directed escape path for the outgassing binder in
the Fiberfrax.
Dan, What thickness stainless foil (shim stock) did you use? I'm thinking ~.003".
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Scott Card
RV-9A N4822C flying 900+hrs. / Austin, TX
Track
RV8 Building - fuselage
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,545
08-18-2011, 05:21 PM
DanH
Posts: 2,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by scard
Dan, What thickness stainless foil (shim stock) did you use? I'm thinking ~.003".
That's fine.
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RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
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08-19-2011, 07:49 AM
prkaye
Posts: 1,825
Thanks Dan! Where does one get the Stainless Steel foil?
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RV9A (SB)
Ottawa, Canada
08-19-2011, 08:35 AM
bkthomps
Posts: 707
Quote:
Originally Posted by prkaye
Thanks Dan! Where does one get the Stainless Steel foil?
These questions will keep coming until DanH does a HowTo: for the firewall insulation method that he approves of
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Brian
RV-4 - Flying!
#63 08-19-2011, 09:31 AM
CharlieWaffles
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Posts: 340
I had asked the same thing. His response was to use the Stainless Steel Shim Stock from McMaster http://www.mcmaster.com/#stainless-s...-stock/=dor95b
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Finishing Kit - Cabin Doors In Progress
Build Project Site
08-19-2011, 10:00 AM
prkaye
#64 http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=72087&page=7[1/21/2012 9:36:49 AM]
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,825
For firewall insulation on the engine side, Firewall 2000 looks to be equivalent? Ceramic blanket with SS foil on the heat
side?
In an earlier thread, Dan mentioned that he hadn't tested Firewall 2000. Is there any reason to think this would be an
unsafe product to use (attached with SS blind rivets) on the engine side of the firewall?
http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog...rewall2000.php
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RV9A (SB)
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Last edited by prkaye : 08-19-2011 at 12:26 PM.
08-29-2011, 05:40 PM
DanH
Posts: 2,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by prkaye
In an earlier thread, Dan mentioned that he hadn't tested Firewall 2000. Is there any reason to think this would
be an unsafe product to use (attached with SS blind rivets) on the engine side of the firewall?
I didn't bother testing it because the specs say it is rated at 1000F, not 2000F. Doesn't make it unsafe on the engine
side, but it doesn't make it optimum either.
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Dan Horton
RV-8 - Alabama
Barrett IO-390
#66 09-26-2011, 01:09 PM
BruceP
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 84
Part #?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieWaffles
I had asked the same thing. His response was to use the Stainless Steel Shim Stock from McMaster http://www.mcmaster.com/#stainless-s...-stock/=dor95b
There's like a 1000 different part numbers there...which one are we talking about? Thanks!
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Bruce Peters
Bakersfield, CA
RV-9A, Firewall Forward
VAF#1145
#67 09-27-2011, 10:26 AM
CharlieWaffles
I got the type 316 .003 - 9548K62.
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RV-10
N928MT
Finishing Kit - Cabin Doors In Progress
Build Project Site
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Posts: 340

Firewall sealant and Fire Safety

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