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JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR FORTY-FOUR
IN THE US
$995
Demon TM & ©2005 DC Comics.
Contents
THE NEW
Myths & Legends ISSUE!
OPENING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2
(a Kirby documentary on the Fantastic
4 DVD?!)
UNDER THE COVERS . . . . . . . . . . . . .3
(leave, leave, the form of pencil...)
ISSUE #44, FALL 2005
C
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MUSEUM PAGE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
(news from the Jack Kirby Museum)
INNERVIEW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5
(Jack’s rarely-seen 1983 interview)
JACK F.A.Q.s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11
(Mark Evanier’s trip to Syd Shores)
INCIDENTAL ICONOGRAPHY . . . . . . . .17
(a Norse is a Norse, of course, of
course)
KIRBY AS A GENRE . . . . . . . . . . . . .18
(Adam McGovern on who made who)
ACCOLADES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20
(Kirby Award-winner David Schwartz
talks about Jack, Mark, and Mike)
SOURCES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .23
(Etrigan’s great grandfather?)
RETROSPECTIVE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .24
(Jack’s midnight masterpiece, The
Demon)
GALLERY 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .27
(some Demonic pencils)
OLD FRIENDS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .32
(Barry Alfonso shows us that
Witchboy’s all grown up)
PUBLIC DOMAIN THEATRE . . . . . . .34
(two complete Black Magic stories)
KIRBY OBSCURA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .42
(journey into unexpected mystery...)
NEAR MYTHS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .44
(how faithful was Jack’s to legends)
GALLERY 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .48
(myth-illogical Kirby art, in pencil)
RETROSPECTIVE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .54
(Thor the Thunderer revealed)
BEFORE & AFTER . . . . . . . . . . . . . .60
(compare classic pencils to published
inks, side-by-side)
NEAR MYTHS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66
(Odin’s not “all that,” and the legend
of Galactus’ origin)
KIRBYWOOD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .70
(F4 screenwriter Mike France speaks)
COLLECTOR COMMENTS . . . . . . . . .78
PARTING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .80
(what would Demon #17 have been?)
Front cover inks: MATT WAGNER
Front cover colors: DAVE STEWART
Back cover painting: GEORGIO COMOLO
Photocopies of Jack’s uninked
pencils from published comics are
reproduced courtesy of the Kirby Estate,
which has our thanks for their support.
COPYRIGHTS: Black Panther, Captain America, Eternals,
Falcon, Fantastic Four, Galactus, Giant-Man, Him, Hulk, Iron
Man, Journey Into Mystery, Machine Man/X-51, Nick Fury,
Odin, Prester John, Spider-Man, Thor, Watcher TM & ©2005
Marvel Characters, Inc. • Atlas, Barri-Boy, Batman, Brainiac,
Darkseid, Demon, Desaad, Farley Fairfax, Flash, Forever
People, Green Lantern, Guardian, House of Mystery, Jason
Blood, Jimmy Olsen, Joker, Kamandi, Lex Luthor, Mark
Moonrider, Merlin, Mister Miracle, Morgaine Le Fey, Newsboy
Legion, Penguin, Sandman, Sandy, Super Powers, Superman,
Vykin, Witchboy, Wonder Woman TM & ©2005 DC Comics. •
Thunderfoot, Gladiator & Dracula drawings TM & ©2005 Jack
Kirby Estate. • Black Magic TM Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. •
2001: A Space Odyssey © 1968 Turner Entertainment Co.
(above) A 1976 pencil drawing; we’re unsure what it was originally done for, but it nicely depicts the fabled battles of the gladiators in Rome.
©2005 Jack Kirby Estate.
The Jack Kirby Collector, Vol. 12, No. 44, Fall 2005. Published quarterly by & ©2005 TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. 919-449-0344. John Morrow, Editor. Pamela Morrow,
Asst. Editor. Eric Nolen-Weathington, Production Assistant. Single issues: $13 postpaid ($15 Canada, $16 elsewhere). Four-issue subscriptions: $36.00 US, $60.00 Canada, $64.00 elsewhere. All characters are trademarks of
their respective companies. All artwork is ©2005 Jack Kirby unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is ©2005 the respective authors. First printing. PRINTED IN CANADA.
Opening Shot
by John Morrow, editor of TJKC
he critics seemed to be pretty lukewarm toward this summer’s Fantastic 4 movie.
Ratings hovered at just a little above average, with most of the initial reviewer
headlines proclaiming something along the lines of “Fantastic 4 is hardly fantastic.”
So I went in to my local multiplex (something I don’t get to do very often these days,
being the father of two small kids), armed with popcorn, a non-comics friend, and low
expectations for the film. I came out, however, feeling pretty happy with it, for two reasons.
First, I thought is was a good film. Not great, mind you; Dr. Doom needed to be a
lot more interesting (despite casting Julian McMahon of TV’s Nip/Tuck, who I thought
was visually perfect for the part), and the climax, while packing plenty of action, was
over much too quickly (but it did a great job of showing the foursome working together
against a common foe). If those two things had been better, I really think it would’ve
been one of the top comics-related movies ever made. As it is, I felt they did an outstanding job of presenting the team’s origin (and it didn’t bother me at all that Doom
went up into space with them, unlike in the comic book). The special effects were spectacular throughout, and while the acting may not win any Academy Awards, I don’t
recall too many given out to other comics moviestars in the past. Chris Evans did a dead-on portrayal of what a hot-headed Johnny
Storm would be like in real life. Ioan Gruffud was an appropriately stuffy Reed. Jessica Alba thankfully didn’t spend too much time
being invisible (rowr!). Michael Chiklis was convincing and loveable as Ben. And the interplay
between the Thing and the Torch was, for me, the
highlight of the flick, perfectly capturing their
volatile relationship from the Lee/Kirby comics.
While the film doesn’t look exactly Kirbyesque,
there’s a lot of high-tech gadgetry and sets that
were obviously inspired by Jack’s work, even if only
Kirby geeks like us will ever know it. And of course,
the huge end credit for Jack was the icing on the cake. All in all, it was a fun escapist romp, and I recommend everyone reading this
magazine check it out on DVD (and check out screenwriter Mike France’s interview elsewhere in this issue).
The other reason I was happy after leaving the theatre was because, three weeks after the film’s release, there was a decent sized
crowd. Since most comics fans undoubtedly went to see it the first week it was out, this makes me confident that the film also appealed
to the general public, despite lackluster reviews. (Even my non-comics friend who went with me enjoyed it, having no idea who the FF
were.) That in turns makes me hopeful that the DVD version of the film will sell a lot of copies.
But John, you ask; if the Kirby family isn’t receiving any money from the film (and they’re not), why do you want it to sell well on
DVD?
The reason is, the Fantastic 4 DVD contains a documentary on Jack Kirby! As I write this, I just finished watching a prerelease copy
of it. Titled Jack Kirby: Storyteller, and produced by Jon Mefford (who’s assembled many of the extra features on Marvel’s recent film
DVDs), it’s a one-hour look at Jack’s life and career. It features interviews with a who’s who of comics pros, including Stan Lee, Neal
Adams, Steve Rude, Alex Ross, Barry Windsor-Smith, Walter Simonson, and more! There’s also commentary by Jack’s kids Lisa and
Neal Kirby, Mark Evanier, Steve Sherman, Mike Royer, Mike Thibodeaux, and others involved in furthering
the Kirby legacy, including yours truly (hey, somebody had to put the “Who?” in the who’s who). The bio
presents plenty of rare family photos and Kirby art provided by TJKC and the Kirby estate, and while the
visuals are focused on Jack’s Marvel work (this is, after all, a Marvel DVD), Jack’s entire career is discussed
in detail, including the Simon & Kirby years, his DC period, and animation (plus a wonderful section
devoted to Roz Kirby). And best of all, they got their facts right!
No, the Kirby family still doesn’t stand to gain a penny off the F4 movie or DVD, or the slew of
promotional items that are blanketing toy and department stores around the world (have you seen the
lifesize Thing Feet at Toys ’R’ Us?); we can only hope that, if the DVD does really well, perhaps 20th
Century Fox will do the right thing and pony-up a co-creator payment for the Kirby family, to match
even a fraction of what Stan Lee will receive (frankly, I’ve given up hope Marvel will ever do the right
thing on its own). But regardless, this documentary stands to present Jack’s name and life to the general public in a way never before possible, and will hopefully generate some understanding of Jack’s
role in the creation of Marvel’s characters, even if there’s no financial compensation coming for it.
So, what would Jack have thought of the F4 movie? Not really having known him, I can’t say for
sure. But I like to think he’d have mostly enjoyed it (perhaps with the exception of Stan’s cameo as
postman Willie Lumpkin); and I’m confident, after viewing the documentary, he’d be thrilled with
the way his legacy is being preserved. From talking to producer Jon Mefford, I know that was his
intention in deciding to make the documentary (an idea which, by the way, was enthusiastically
approved of by Marvel Studios exec Avi Arad). That’s also the purpose of the new Jack Kirby
Museum & Research Center (launched on August 28 by Rand Hoppe at www.kirbymuseum.org—
see the Museum Page elsewhere in this issue for more info). And of course, it’s been the goal of
this magazine for eleven years and counting.
This is a pivotal time for Jack’s legacy, with a lot of important
events all converging. Many people are doing their best to raise
Kirby’s public profile, and I hope you’ll all do your part—by buying
the F4 DVD, joining the Kirby Museum, and continuing to support
this publication. Together, we’ll see that Jack finally gets the credit he’s due,
and have a lot of fun in the process. ★
T
Kirby On Film
(above) Michael Chiklis as the
Thing.
(top right) Jack Kirby with his
art display, at a comics convention in the late 1970s.
(below) Cover of the Fantastic 4
DVD, which features a documentary on Jack’s life. It’s due
to hit stores on December 5.
Fantastic 4 DVD ©2005 20th Century Fox.
Characters TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters,
Inc.
2
Under The Covers
ur front cover this issue is Matt Wagner’s third attempt at inking the below pencils from Jack’s
“Black Book” sketchbook (done in the mid-1970s as a gift for his wife Roz). When we asked why he
did two earlier versions (shown below), Matt responded, “The first one turned out “too Royer”—as
you had distinctly asked for it not to be. Additionally, as had often been the case whenever I’d tried to ink a
Kirby piece in the past, I lost all sense of texture—cloth looked the same as
skin looked the same as rock looked the same as flame.
“On the next one, I decided to roughen things up a bit and used a
scrubbly dry-brush effect that gave the piece an almost-indy/alternative
comics look. Still wasn’t satisfied with it, though.
“In the end, I did a version with ink wash and that one worked out
quite well. It really captures not only the textures, but also the spirit of
Kirby’s pencils—as well as a hefty dose of my own identity as well. Showed
it to Bob Schreck and Diana Schutz last week and they both thought it
looked great—“a true collaboration.” At Matt’s request, the piece was
then colored
by Dave
Stewart, who
has lots of
experience at
coloring over
ink wash, and
we think it
ended up pretty
spectacular!
O
Our back cover is a painting of Galactus by
Georgio Comolo that’s based on Jack’s beautiful
full-pager from Thor #160. Georgio’s done a
slew of amazing Kirby-based paintings, including
the great Demon #7 two-page spread shown
above (you should see it in color!). To view
more examples of his work, and for commissions, be sure to visit his official website at
<http://comolo.redsectorart.com/> ★
Demon TM & ©2005 DC Comics.
3
Mark evanier
Jack F.A.Q.s
A column answering Frequently Asked Questions about Kirby
by Mark Evanier
(below) A pretty punchy
example of Syd Shores’ inks
over Kirby from Captain
America #101 (May 1968).
This image was shot from a
copy of the original art,
showing the detail that
Shores put into his inking.
Captain America TM and ©2005 Marvel
Characters, Inc.
We start this time with the following query from Michael Wohl:
I’ve seen you write about which Kirby inkers were your favorites but
I’ve never seen you give your opinion of Syd Shores, whose work I loved.
I’d also like to hear whatever you know about his return to Marvel
after years away and what Jack thought of his inking.
was not a big fan of what Shores did to Jack’s pencil art on
Captain America. I liked him better embellishing Gene Colan
but even there, I thought there were plenty of inkers who were
more sensitive to the task.
That said, I will add that I liked Kirby/Shores a little better
I
when I saw
some of
the original
art. Shores
was using a
lot of fine
lines—some,
apparently executed
with a ball-point pen of
some sort—at a time when
comic book printing was especially noxious, and a lot of what he
put in went muddy. This was also a period when Marvel’s colorists
were being influenced by what DC was doing with color in their
books—darker colors, less reliance on bright primary tones, less
yellow on the page. Kirby once described
it as: “Everything being colored like it’s a
war comic.”
(It is said that a few months later,
Stan Lee happened to leaf through a pile
of their comics—like Jack, he didn’t look
at the printed books all that often—and
said something like, “This isn’t how I want
our books to look!” And with that, Marvel
went back to brighter, lighter colors... and
a better approach, I thought, at least for
their super-hero titles.)
Still, even given those excuses, I
thought Shores was miscast... not just as a
Kirby inker but as an inker at all. And his
stint inking Jack is a good example of, as
you occasionally see in comics, an inker
not being sure of his goal. Shores’s natural
drawing style was quite different from what
Jack was then doing... so was the end
product supposed to look like Kirby or
Shores? There are panels in those issues
that skew in both directions and I don’t
think either approach is particularly effective. Inking another artist is not something
that comes naturally to some folks who
know how to draw, and I don’t think
Shores was really suited for the chore.
Once upon a time, Syd Shores was
Marvel’s star adventure artist. He held the
post for a period after Kirby and Al Avison
but before Bill Everett, Joe Maneely and
the return of Kirby. No less than Gene
Colan and John Buscema would later cite
him as a powerful teacher/influence, and
you could see a lot of other guys who
drew for Stan Lee back then wishing they
were Shores.
Shores started at Marvel as an inker,
working with Simon and Kirby on their
first Captain America books. In an unpublished interview with Shores that recently
came my way, he explained:
“I had been assisting Mac Raboy and
it didn’t pay enough. I’d just gotten married
and I was desperate for a real paycheck.
So I wrote and drew this strip called “The
Terror” and I took it up to Timely Comics,
just picking them at random. The whole
office consisted of Joe Simon and Jack
Kirby and we sat around talking for a
11
From
THIS:
He Got
THIS?
Incidental
Iconography
An ongoing analysis of Kirby’s visual shorthand,
and how he inadvertently used it to develop his characters,
by Sean Kleefeld
uch has been written about Jack
be the source of Jack’s 1957 version
Kirby’s work on Thor—from the
of Thor, with the fur cape, horned helmet,
debate over who controlled the character’s
bare arms and a tunic with circular plates
destiny (Stan or Jack) to how the Thor that showed up in
embedded in it. Would that Rackham’s Siegfried
Journey Into Mystery was not Jack’s first attempt at the character.
carried a hammer, he could easily be mistaken for
This article, as the rest of those in this column, will focus on the
the son of Odin.
visual evolution of the character.
We cut to a few years later, as Jack was
Jack’s first professional attempt at the character showed up in
working on Marvel’s new Fantastic Four comic
Adventure Comics #75 in 1942. The character design was fairly
book. Stan Lee had recently gotten sales numbers
evidently based on the typical depictions of Norse legends, sporting an
back on their first issues and was beginning to
unkempt beard, a winged Viking
helmet, loin cloth, arm bands, and
strapped boots. This Thor wields a
utilitarian hammer and has a
sheathed sword about his belt.
Kirby’s design here must largely
have come from older depictions
of the character, although the
over-abundance of muscles
seems to have been Jack’s own
addition. It should be pointed out,
though, that real Vikings never
wore helmets with wings or
horns—more on this in a bit.
A Jack Kirby Thor next
appears in Tales of the
Unexpected #16. This is a most
5
Adventure Comics #7
significant pre-Marvel attempt at
the character, in large part
see that Martin Goodman was
because of his chronal proximity, having
right, and that they should
been created in 1957. This version of Thor
return to publishing super-heroes. The first tentative response was The Incredible
bears visual hallmarks of the previous
Hulk, and before the first issue’s sales numbers came in, he had Jack Kirby working
on their next they-could-still-argue-he’s-not-quite-an-outright-super-hero-ifest dots! two: the scruffy beard, fur-like loin cloth,
cted #16—ch
pe
ex
Un
e
th
and sheathed sword from the earlier appearNational-began-asking-questions super-hero: Thor, the god of thunder. Indeed the job
Tales of
ance; and the horned helmet, tunic and uniform boots from the latter.
numbers indicate Journey Into Mystery #83 was wedged comfortably between Hulk
There are two new additions to the design, though,
#2 and Amazing Fantasy #15.
that are clearly noteworthy. First is the addition of a
Whether it was Stan or Jack who suggested Thor is beyond the
cape. This cape appears to be simply a fur clasped
scope of this column (and has been
around Thor’s neck and one could easily see a Viking
addressed elsewhere repeatedly) but it
using it to ward off the cold, winter winds of Norway.
clearly fell to Jack to develop the characThe second, more curious, addition is that of circular
ter’s visual design. Whether by intention
designs added to the chest area of his tunic. Looking
or serendipity, Jack effectively lifted his
carefully at the art, one can see that this isn’t the
character design from his Unexpected
simple circular designs that appear in later Marvel
story. The few differences are: this new
comics, but appear to be more numerous, and
Thor is clean-shaven, does not carry a
focused exclusively on the upper body. The suggessword, and sports a trimmed and hemmed
tion seems to be that of a form of armor; small
cape instead of a fur one as well as winged
plates sewn onto a leather tunic to deflect blows
helmet instead of a horned one. The changes
away from vital areas of the chest. Like the
to his facial hair and cape were almost
horned helmet, this also has little relation back to
certainly done for editorial reasons, to place
historical Vikings. Both have their roots in fiction.
Thor more squarely in the super-hero genre;
The “classical” image of a Viking is wellthe cape having been long established as a
known in large part due to opera. Richard
super-hero emblem and the bare chin also
Wagner’s series of four operas collectively called
having been long established as heroic visual,
Rackham’s
“Wotan Rev
The Ring of the Nibelung is perhaps one of the
much like the white cowboy hat. And if there
eals His Ang
uish to Brün
most widely known works of fiction about Vikings. (The powerful and
was any question with regard to Stan’s intention
hilde”
enduring “Ride of the Valkyries” is from the second of these operas.) While the original
of selling Thor to his readers as a super-hero,
costumes begin to play with the visual notions of horned helmets and metallic
his editorial note in the last panel of Thor’s first
breastplates, it was seemingly cost-prohibitive at the time to become too elaborate. It
story verifies those intentions by calling the new protagonist, “Thor the Mighty, the
thus fell to turn-of-the-century illustrator Arthur Rackham to provide lush interpretations
greatest super hero of all time…” (While beyond Jack’s direct control, it might be
and stunning visuals to accompany Wagner’s story. And, indeed, we find what must
(continued on page 19)
M
17
Accolades
(below) An example of the
kind of help David gives
to this publication: He
discovered this obscure
1980s Kirby piece (inked
by Mike Thibodeaux) and
immediately sent us a
copy. Whatta guy!
©2005 Jack Kirby Estate
(next page, top) David and
Jack in the ’80s.
(next page, bottom) An
’80s Kirby animation
piece, from around the
time David worked for
Ruby-Spears.
©2005 Jack Kirby Estate
David Meets Goliath
David Schwartz Interview
Interviewed and transcribed by John Morrow
(Editor’s Note: In case you’re not familiar with the name David
Schwartz, let me say he’s a great friend of the Kirby family, and of
yours truly as well. While he’s never been in the public Kirby spotlight,
he’s helped out innumerable times on this magazine, supplying just the
right piece of art when a need arises, and acting as a liaison between
us and an often overworked Mike Thibodeaux in getting us materials
for the mag. As you read this interview—which was conducted
September 19, 2005 by phone, and was copyedited by David—I think
you’ll understand why David was chosen to receive a Jack Kirby
Award at last year’s Comic-Con International: San Diego.)
THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: David, can you give us some
brief biographical information on yourself?
DAVID SCHWARTZ: I’m 47; I was born in 1958. I grew up in New
York City, in Greenwich Village in the 1960s and I went to my
first convention in 1971, which was Phil Seuling’s con; I was 13.
TJKC: Was Kirby there?
DAVID: Jack was there in 1972, I believe. I got a copy of Demon
#1 signed. It was July of 1972, and I’ve still got that signature.
Demon #1 would’ve been out some time in May. That was the
first time I met Jack. Neal [Kirby] was there selling Jack’s comics
and art. The thing I remember most is waiting in line with everybody. There was a guy in front of me with Captain America #1,
which was a big deal even at that time, and he had Jack sign it.
And there was another guy who had Spider-Man #42, and Jack
looked at it and said, “I didn’t work on this,” and the kid said,
“That’s okay, could you sign it anyway?”” (laughter) So Jack
signed Spider-Man #42. If the fan was happy, Jack was happy.
TJKC: So you were steeped in the whole ’60s-era Marvel period?
DAVID: Yeah, the Marvel stuff ’s what grabbed me. I’d read the
Archie and Harvey stuff when I was younger, but my first “real”
comics were Fantastic Four and Spider-Man. The first things I
bought off the stands were Spider-Man #44 and Fantastic Four
#58 or #59. Then I started buying Marvel Tales and Marvel
Collector’s Item Classics, and discovered Ditko’s Spider-Man and
the real early issues of Fantastic Four in those reprints. But I was
completely unaware Jack had been at DC prior to that, and didn’t
know much about his comics in the 1940s.
TJKC: Was there anything really eventful about that first meeting?
DAVID: No, it was pretty much, “Here, will you sign my book?”
There was a line of people, and I said “hello” and shook his hand.
I was very shy, and went away; a quick meeting where I recognized
who I was in the presence of, and there was a long line and I didn’t
want to overstay.
TJKC: After that Demon #1 signing, when were your next encounters
with Jack?
DAVID: The first was at a convention in the late 1970s. It was
either at a Baycon in San Francisco or a San Diego convention. I
had an opportunity, for whatever reason, to be talking to Jack,
and I went to lunch with him and Roz. I wasn’t the only one;
there were four or five fans, and I seem to remember just being in
a position where they said, “We’re going to get something to eat;
would you guys like to come?” And we went. That was the first
time I actually got to sit down and meet them, and really know
Jack on any level. I just remember being kind of in awe of being
at a table with Jack Kirby, and speaking with him throughout the
lunch. It was just a great thrill.
In 1980, I’d graduated from San Francisco State University,
and moved down to Los Angeles to work in the television industry.
I met Mike Thibodeaux at a convention, and we got to know each
other and became friends. He had just started inking Captain
Victory, around 1981. He was so excited, and so secretive, because
it hadn’t come out yet, and he didn’t want to say anything until it
came out—partially because he couldn’t believe he was doing it.
(laughter) He didn’t want to jinx it.
Mike invited me up to the Kirbys’. It was pretty amazing;
their walls were adorned with all this bursting creativity of Jack’s,
whether it was things he’d just done for the house, or his collages.
You were in this amazing, powerful space of Jack Kirby’s energy,
and that was pretty phenomenal. Jack would go with you around
the home, and give you a little story about each piece of artwork;
a little guided tour around his home. Over the years, he did it so
many times, that by the time Jack passed away, when fans would
come up there with me or Mike, I was able to give that tour to
some extent. (laughter) And because Mike and I were friends, I
was invited up many more times during the years.
The next time I ran into Jack was at Ruby-Spears, when he
was doing animation things. I started writing animated cartoons
in 1982 for Hanna-Barbera, Ruby-Spears, Filmation, and Disney.
Over the years, I wrote 75-80 different episodes of cartoon shows
as a freelance writer; things like Alvin and the Chipmunks, Jonny
20
been a lot harder for me to get my foot
in the door.
Quest, the Addams Family, and many others. The
day I ran into Roz and Jack they were dropping off
artwork, and because I had visited them in their
home, they remembered me, so we said “Hi” as a
passing thing. I remember it because it was always a
big thrill whenever I got to see Jack.
TJKC: How’d you get started in animation?
DAVID: Mark [Evanier] got me started. Someone
had given me his number, saying he was a comic
book person who also worked in television. I was in
college, and I’d written some speculative sitcom
scripts, so I called him. Mark was willing to read
them and give me advice.
TJKC: At the time, did you realize this was Jack Kirby’s
former assistant?
DAVID: No, I didn’t have a clue! (laughter) I didn’t
associate the name at the time. I probably knew
he’d worked with Jack in one portion of my brain,
but it didn’t connect right away. Here was a guy
who worked in television who could possibly give
me some advice on my scripts.
When I moved to Los Angeles in 1980 to work
in television, I didn’t know anybody except Mark, so
I said, “I’m new in town, let’s have lunch.” So Mark
and I established a friendship. He knew I was trying
to write sitcoms, and I was working on different TV
shows as an assistant, but wasn’t able to break in.
Mark was a story editor at Hanna-Barbera, and gave
me the opportunity to write a Richie Rich cartoon in
1982; he bought it, liked it, and it actually aired.
And I thought, “I’m in! Mark’s the story editor,
and I’m gonna be able to do more scripts,
and everything’s great,” and Mark said to
me, “Now I’ve gotten your foot in the door.
You need to go out and get work from other
people, so it doesn’t look like you’re only
being hired because we know each other.” It’s
the best thing he could’ve done. He gave me
an aired sample that I could bring to others,
and say, “This was bought by Hanna-Barbera,
and now I want to do one for you.” So I
went out and worked for twelve years doing
animated cartoons.
Mark gave me what he called a TenMinute Lesson On How To Write Animated
Cartoons. For the next ten years, to anyone I
met who wanted to get into writing cartoons,
I considered it my duty to go to lunch with
them, to be willing to read what they wrote,
and to give them that Ten-Minute Lesson. It’s
not ten minutes on how to be a writer; it’s
ten minutes on how to write for this specific
format. I really felt an obligation to help anyone who wanted to get into the industry,
based on the kindness and helpfulness Mark
had shown to me. Without Mark, it would’ve
TJKC: Were your other encounters with
Jack visits with Mike Thibodeaux up to
the Kirby house?
DAVID: Yes. Mike became kind of the
unofficial greeter up there. If people
wanted to go up there and meet Jack
and Roz, Mike was the person Jack and
Roz would refer them to. Mike was
kind of the ambassador of bringing
people up there. (laughter) I think there
was also an added comfortability for
Jack and Roz when Mike was there.
Mike also knew the
values of the original
artwork really well, so he could help
with that if people wanted to buy
art. Over the years, he became kind
of an adopted son to them.
DAVID: All modesty aside, I was basically someone
who backed Mike up. Mike would go up there, and
he’d be with people he didn’t know; different collectors, or huge fans who’d be so thrilled to meet Jack.
Mike didn’t know a lot of these people, and wasn’t
all that comfortable going up alone with these people
he didn’t know, so he would invite me to come
along, because he knew me, and we had a certain
camaraderie, and an ability to be comfortable and
include the new people in that comfort zone. Mike
would call me and say, “Somebody wants to meet
the Kirbys,” and I’d meet him over at his house, and
we went up there. That was kind of the pattern.
TJKC: Being an art collector, were you helpful to Mike
in suggesting whether he
should negotiate up or
down when he was pricing
original artwork to sell to
collectors?
DAVID: Oh yeah, I became
very good at doing that.
TJKC: Mike became the de facto art
DAVID SCHWARTZ
He was really the liaison
agent at some point. It just sort of
to Roz, but when you’re
evolved that way through this process?
dealing with something as
DAVID: Yeah. Since Roz wasn’t an
fluid as art collecting,
art collector, it was very hard for her
sometimes things go up in value, or get more or less
to be up on all the pricing. Plus, how do you negotiate
popular; Mike and I having the ability to soundboard
with Roz Kirby? You just want to say, “Here’s all my
each other made a big difference, so we at least felt
money, Roz, give me whatever you think it’s worth.”
Jack and Roz were getting a fair price. A lot of our
(laughter) Mike could be that person, so you wouldn’t
goal was to make sure we were able to satisfy both
have to say, “Gee, Roz, can I have it for ten dollars
the collector who didn’t want to feel they were overcheaper?” He became really invaluable to them, and
paying, while at the same time wanting to make sure
he did it all out of his love for them, for years and
Roz and Jack got a very fair price for their artwork.
years.
TJKC: Why do you think you received a Jack Kirby
TJKC: How often did you see Jack after the RubyAward?
Spears meeting?
DAVID: After Jack passed away, Mike and I really
DAVID: Mike and I went up there once or twice a
became very instrumental in making sure Roz was
month, for at least a couple of years in the mid-1980s.
okay, and taking care of Roz. Mike, certainly much
TJKC: So you got to be a regular fixture around the
more than I was, made sure she was okay healthhouse?
wise, or was able to get what she needed. We used
DAVID: Yeah, but nowhere near what Mike was. It
to take Roz to dinner a lot, and spend a lot of time
got to the point where they were very familiar with
with her, because she was a real joy to spend time
me when I came up, and I was very friendly with them.
with. But I want to emphasize that, while I was there
and was always trying to do what I could, Mike did
TJKC: All modesty aside, what was your involvement
so much more, and put in so much more time.
with Jack and Roz and the family?
That’s not to minimize what I did, but I
don’t want it to look like I was up there with
Mike every time, and I was as helpful as he
was. Because truthfully, he was family with
them, and I was basically his friend who was
lucky enough, and in the right place at the
right time, to be able to be supportive of
him, and have all the wonderfulness of being
part of that family. At some point, somebody
needs to write something on how instrumental
Mike was in the well-being of the Kirby family,
especially after Jack passed away. If Roz
needed groceries, if she needed to be driven
somewhere, if she needed to go to the doctor,
he was right there every time. Mike was
probably at first so in awe of meeting them
in the 1970s, but his love for who they were
as people quickly transcended his love for
who Jack was as an icon.
TJKC: My sense is that you helped Mike a lot.
DAVID: I’m very organized, and have a lot of
clarity and a good memory about things. I
remember if a piece of artwork was sold or
not, or if it had some kind of defect that Mike
might not remember. I would also remember
what previous things sold for, and because
21
Etrigan’s Great Grandfather?
Sources
by Brian Eads
was combing the Classics aisle of a local video store recently,
looking for any interesting DVDs, when I stopped in my
tracks. There on the rack, staring out at me amongst films
from Hollywood’s by-gone era was... Etrigan? What in the world
was this? Consumed with curiosity, I bought the DVD and
headed home to see for myself.
It was Häxan (The Witch), a silent film by Swedish director
Benjamin Christensen. The film is quite an oddity; it starts with
a historical overview, presented in a documentary style, describing ancient views of both the physical and supernatural worlds,
and the evolution of the belief in a personification of evil that
eventually became the Medieval Devil. From this, it goes on to
illustrate in re-enactments how the fear of the Devil and the
resulting hysteria led to the persecution and executions of those
believed to be witches in league with Satan. Christensen’s view
is informed by modern (circa 1920) psychiatric theories of hysteria, both individual and collective. After the introduction, the
story is told in a series of
vignettes; some are literal
depictions of the horrifying
methods of torture used by
the Inquisition to extract
confessions from accused
witches; some depict rather
harmless forms of witchcraft, such as fortune-tellers
or purveyors of love
potions; but by far the most
shocking are the wild,
phantasmagoric scenes
depicting the beliefs regarding witches and the Devil
held by peasants and the
Church in the Middle Ages.
These vignettes are full
of powerful and disturbing
imagery. Christensen himself plays the Devil, seen
throughout the film luring
women with evil temptations and presiding over his followers.
The depictions of a Black Sabbath, witches flying through the
night to the Devil’s orgy, and making potions from the blood of
unchristened babies are just some of the shocking scenes.
Christensen used these not to titillate, but rather to illustrate
how rampant fear led people to unchecked flights of terrifying
imaginings. But, as horrific as these are, the film is also leavened
with humor, such as a procession of witches lined up to kiss the
bent-over Devil’s buttocks or the shots, interspersed in an orgy
scene, of demons frantically churning butter. Christensen used
what for the time were cutting-edge techniques like multiple
exposures, claymation, running film in reverse, and stunning
makeup to achieve effects that I found impressive even today.
Now we all know that Jack “borrowed” the Demon from
Hal Foster’s Prince Valiant. But I think it’s quite likely that Hal
Foster saw Häxan and drew upon it when he created his
“demon.” Of course, the evidence is only circumstantial, but I
think it is fairly plausible. Foster’s demon was created in 1937;
Häxan premiered in 1922, plenty of time for Foster to have seen
it. Hal Foster traveled extensively throughout Europe, which
would have presumably increased the likelihood of his encountering this film. And Foster obviously had a keen interest in
Medieval Europe, the primary setting of Häxan, which would
have made this film of particular interest to him.
There is a striking similarity between Häxan’s unnamed
demon and the mask Foster devised for Val. Foster’s mask is
I
(below) The cover art
for the DVD of Häxan.
(bottom) Hal Foster’s
Prince Valiant dons a
goose-flesh mask, to
become at least one
of Jack’s inspirations
for the Demon.
more “realistic” than the face depicted in Häxan, but then Val is
only wearing a mask, while the character in the film is actually
supposed to be a fiend from the pit. Plus, Foster had to devise
something that looked like it could be fashioned from a goose—
an absolutely ingenious ploy—and he did. However, he may
have based his design on publicity stills from the film because
the demon mask he created resembles the cover image more
than how this demon appears in the film itself. (Yes, I realize
Hal Foster couldn’t possibly have seen this DVD cover. In the
course of researching this, I found several images from Häxan
that appear repeatedly, and this demon is one of them; this
leads me to believe that these photos were originally publicity
stills, or perhaps even lobby posters, from the film’s release. If
so, then it’s entirely possible Foster could have seen a very similar, if not the exact, image.) This demon—all of the various
demons in Häxan are individuals with unique makeup—
appears on film only briefly during the orgy scene; he’s shown
stirring some infernal brew, then offering it to a naked witch
before an altar and, finally, debauching a witch during the orgy.
In the film, the demon has very long, serrated ears and prominent horns. In this photo, however, the angle he’s shown foreshortens the horns and ears considerably; the ears were also
cropped to show just his face. This picture looks very much like
the goose-mask fashioned by Val.
Also, one of the more technically outstanding sequences
from Häxan is Christensen’s depiction of witches flying through
the night sky on broomsticks. In Prince Valiant, Foster has the
demon-masked Val spook some castle raiders by “flying”
through a window on a broomstick. While on the face of it this
may not seem very telling, I have never heard any folk tale of
demons using broomsticks—only witches. Maybe, if Foster did
see Häxan, this imagery was compelling enough for him use it
for his demon.
We know Jack in the late ’30s/early ’40s lifted several other
images from this Prince Valiant sequence, such as the cover to
Red Raven Comics #1. But it seems odd that, in 1972, Jack would,
out of the blue, design a leading character based on an image
from thirty-five years previous. By then, he was a steamroller of
creativity; I can’t imagine him bothering to slow down enough
to reference another artist’s work, even one as revered as Foster.
(I’m not aware of any other notable Kirby swipe from the dawn
of the Silver Age-on.) Though this sequence in Prince Valiant
obviously made a strong impression on him at the time, it’s
hard to believe Jack would suddenly decide to lift that image all
these years later. But what if something jogged his memory and
reminded him of this favorite sequence from his youth?
Again, all I can offer is circumstantial evidence, but I think
it’s possible Jack saw, or was at least aware of, the film Häxan.
Subtitled “Witchcraft Through the Ages,” it was re-released
several times over the years, once in 1941 and again in 1968
(with narration by William S. Burroughs!). The 1968 re-release
would have been only a few years before Jack created the
Demon. Maybe he saw it—or at least publicity photos for it—
and recalled Foster’s demon and the fantastic sequence from
Prince Valiant. In fact, Jack’s Demon in some ways resembles
Christensen’s more so than it does Foster’s: Häxan’s demon has
what appears to be fur around his eyes, which radiates outward
jaggedly; Kirby’s Demon has this same look, but the eyes of
Foster’s mask are simply dark recesses under Val’s brow. I
believe it is possible that not only was Foster’s demon inspired
by Häxan, but Kirby’s Demon may have been a synthesis of
both Foster’s and Christensen’s visions.
Jack’s fertile imagination fathered the Demon, and there’s
no doubt that Hal Foster can be regarded as the Demon’s
Grandfather. And, now, I think it’s time to recognize the man
who may well have been the Demon’s Great Grandfather,
Benjamin Christensen. ★
23
Retrospective
Jack Kirby’s Midnight Ma
An uncanny look at a demon named Etrigan, by Brian Cremins
(below) Creepy cover
to Demon #15 (Dec.
1973).
(next page) Demon
#5 (Jan. 1973) let
us see Etrigan and
Merlin working
together.
Demon, Merlin, Witchboy TM &
©2005 DC Comics.
24
“There’s still a black, shivery outside, you know––a weird realm from
which men shrink in terror. Science hasn’t done away with it. Nothing
will ever do away with it.”
––Fritz Leiber, from Weird Tales, Sept. 1946
“As a needed change of pace in Kirby’s experimentation, the occult
character emerges as an identifiable individual who lives on the
premise that the strange world of black magic and potent spells is real
and horribly alive with potential dangers for us normals.”
––Mark Evanier and Steve Sherman, “Demonology as Heroics,”
The Demon #2 (Oct. 1972)
“AAAARRR!”
––Etrigan the Demon, from “My Tomb in Castle Branek!,”
The Demon #2 (Oct. 1972)
or most comic book fans, the word “uncanny” evokes images
of teenage mutants wearing skin-tight costumes and doing
battle against a white-haired, middle-aged man with a redand-purple tin can on his head. Many of us, in fact, gained an
extra point or two after stumbling across this word on the SATs
(raise your hands if you know what I’m talking about, class!).
While I could spend this entire essay talking about Jack Kirby’s
invaluable contributions to the mythology of the X-Men, truth be
told, they didn’t have that glorious adjective added to their name
until issue #114 in 1978 and they weren’t officially The Uncanny
X-Men until issue #142 in February, 1982, at which point Jack was
busy at Pacific Comics writing and drawing Captain Victory and
the Galactic Rangers. So this essay isn’t about Jack and the X-Men,
but it is about Jack and the Uncanny, specifically all of the strange
characters and worlds Jack created for us during his sixteen-issue
run of The Demon in the early 1970s. If you like your weird tales
mixed with humor and just a hint of the absurd, you
owe it to yourself to read “The Reincarnators” from The
Demon #3 (Nov. 1972) or, better yet, the stories featuring
Klarion the Witchboy and his evil cat Teekl (issues #7,
14, and 15). Just be sure not to read these stories too late
at night, or you may find yourself murmuring, “Gone!
Gone!––The form of man––! Rise, the Demon Etrigan!!”
and suddenly be transformed into a stunted creature
with webbed ears, pale yellow skin, and fiery red eyes.
This sounds like a classic case of split-identity. Calling
Dr. Freud, please! Dr. Freud?!
In 1919, Sigmund Freud published a paper in the
journal Imago entitled “The ‘Uncanny,’” one of the many
short essays in which Freud writes more about literature
than he does about his patients. He admits as much in
the first paragraph of the essay, saying, “It is only rarely
that a psycho-analyst feels impelled to investigate the
subject of aesthetics even when aesthetics is understood
to mean not merely the theory of beauty, but the theory
of feeling,” (Freud 368). As the essay progresses, it
becomes clear that Dr. Freud loved a good horror story
just like everyone else and was especially frightened by
E.T.A. Hoffman’s “Der Sandmann” (first published in
1816-1817 and translated into English as “The SandMan”), the chilling tale of an obsessive young man slowly
destroyed by the memory of a traumatic event from his
childhood. I won’t tell you whether or not the young
man is destroyed by the villain of the story, the shadowy
Coppelius––you’ll just have to find out for yourself.
However, I can tell you about Freud’s reaction to the
story, which inspired him to invent a definition of “the
uncanny” which will help explain why Jack’s Demon stories, for example, are so ghoulishly entertaining.
The good Dr. Freud informs us that the uncanny
“undoubtedly belongs to all that is terrible––to all that
arouses dread and creeping horror; it is equally certain,
too, that the word is not always used in the clearly
definable sense, so that it tends to coincide with whatever excites dread” (Freud 368). “Creeping horror,”
“dread”––has this sentence been translated from the
German by H.P. Lovecraft or Fritz Leiber? Perhaps my
American Heritage Dictionary will help to clear things up
a little. “Exciting wonder and fear; inexplicable; strange:
an uncanny laugh.” My faithful red dictionary also
informs me that, in case I want to do some exploring, I
should “see synonyms at weird.” So we’re right back
where we started: the kind of feeling you get from reading the weird tales and experiencing the creeping horror
of a pulp magazine of the 1930s. Not so fast! Dr. Freud
isn’t quite finished with us just yet.
F
sterpiece
“[T]he ‘uncanny,’” Freud writes, “is that
class of the terrifying which leads back to
something long known to us, once very familiar” (Freud 369-370). Later in the essay Freud
refers to another great German thinker and
philosopher, Friedrich Schelling, and elaborates on this earlier definition: “According to
[Schelling] everything is uncanny that ought
to have remained hidden and secret, yet
comes to light,” (Freud 375-376). This is the
part of Freud’s essay which is so intriguing,
especially when applied to Jason Blood and
his link to Merlin’s Demon, Etrigan. Jason’s
great curse, explored not only by Kirby but
also by Matt Wagner in his underrated 1987
Demon mini-series, is his sense of alienation
from his own body. After he discovers his violent, vengeful other half, Jason Blood no
longer feels at home in his own skin. You can’t
blame Jason from feeling estranged from himself; after all, how would you feel if at any
moment a simple rhyming couplet could turn
you into a creature from the deepest pits of
Dante’s––and Jack’s––fiery imagination?
The first issue of The Demon, “Unleash the
One Who Waits” (Aug.-Sept. 1972), is filled
with several uncanny moments in which
Jason, a demonologist by trade, slowly uncovers his true identity as the human vessel for
Etrigan. As Blood tells Mr. Warly in the opening scenes of issue #1, “A demon haunts my
dreams! A demon haunts my life!” Jason’s
mysterious past is slowly coming to light, and
he’s beginning to feel a little crowded by that
other creature who shares his skin.
By the way, I neglected to mention another interesting bit of linguistic trivia, courtesy
once again of Dr. Freud, who informs us, “In
Arabic and Hebrew ‘uncanny’ means the
same as ‘daemonic,’ ‘gruesome,’” (Freud
371). No wonder we’re told in the credits of
The Demon #1 that we’re about to read “A
MIDNIGHT CLASSIC by JACK KIRBY with
inks of darkness by MIKE ROYER”!
Jack’s Demon first arrives on earth at a
time when, as we learn in “Unleash the One
Who Waits,” “men still [live] in the shadow
of the old gods!––and [fear] them!” As the
walls of Camelot fall before Morgaine Le Fey’s
ruthless, bloodthirsty hordes, Merlin formulates a
plan to defend himself and his “Eternity Book.”
What better way to fight evil than by summoning a
creature from the depths of Hell itself? “I will soon
vanish with Camelot, faithful guardian,” Merlin
tells Etrigan as the battle for Camelot subsides. “I’ve
given you a torn part of this fabled book! It is to be
your destiny––on earth!!” But why cast a fierce
Demon as a hero? Can he be trusted? Merlin then
reveals that Etrigan will again be summoned to
defend humanity from Morgaine Le Fey’s evil plans.
“That may be many centuries hence––after time has
done its work on Morgaine Le Fey,” Merlin reveals.
“Her evil beauty shall fade and die, as Camelot does
this night––never to be renewed!––unless she finds
me––and this ancient book!” And, sure enough, in
the early 1970s a rapidly-decaying Morgaine Le Fey
returns to claim the Eternity Book but soon faces
Jason Blood, who appears to have forgotten all
about his powerful alter-ego... except for those curious dreams, of course.
The often tense relationship which exists between
Jason Blood and Etrigan throughout the original
series––on the cover of issue #3, for example, they
are shown chained together and trying with all their
might to pull away from each other––calls to mind
other uncanny relationships in the realm of imaginative fiction. Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, and Bruce
Wayne are all respected men of the world who constantly struggle with inner demons who threaten to
overwhelm them. Walter Gibson’s The Shadow,
another creature of the night, is often more terrifying than the criminals he claims as his victims, but
he spends most of his time as playboy Lamont
Cranston waltzing arm-in-arm with Margot Lane at
the Cobalt Club (I don’t have the room here to
explore The Shadow’s other secret identity, Kent
Allard!). What they all share in common is a dual,
conflicted identity, a life spent sharing their space in
the universe with another being more strange and
powerful than one man can ever be. As Etrigan tells
Jason in the dream sequence which opens The
Demon #3 (Nov. 1972), “HA HA HAH!! We’re linked
together, you and I! Bound as brothers, Jason
Blood!” To underscore the tense relationship
between these two brothers, Jack and Mike Royer
produced some of the most grotesque creatures and
dreamscapes ever seen in American comic books.
The word “uncanny” applies not only to Jason
Blood’s relationship with Etrigan, but also to Kirby’s
explosive, often expressionistic drawing style.
25
Gallery 1
ExorcisE the Demon!
A look at Kirby’s pencils from his 16-issue run on DC’s The Demon (1972-74).
(page 28) Simply one of the coolest (and creepiest)
images Kirby created for his Demon series.
(page 29) While others have always drawn werewolves
as sleek, sinewy creatures, leave it to Jack
to envision one as a hairy, hulking
behemoth. Demon #6, page 19 pencils.
All characters TM & ©2005 DC Comics
All characters TM & ©2005 DC Comics.
(this page) Demon #2 cover pencils. We originally tried to get Bernie Wrightson to ink this piece for this
issue’s cover, thinking it was tailor-made for him, but were unable to work it out. But just imagine...
27
Old Friends
Witchboy, All Grown Up
An interview with Barry Alfonso, by John Morrow
(below) Shel Dorf, Barry
Alfonso, and Jack Kirby,
circa 1971, and Barri-Boy
makes the scene in this
pencil panel from Jimmy
Olsen #144 (Dec. 1971).
(next page, top) Witchboy,
based on Barry’s visage,
debuts in this pencil page
from Demon #7 (March
1973). The photo at the
bottom is of Barry in 1973
with Carmine Infantino
and Kirby. Both photos
courtesy of Shel Dorf.
[Editor’s Note: A lot of Kirby fans are likely familiar with Barry
Alfonso without even knowing it. Born September 6, 1957 in
Springfield, MA, he moved to San Diego, CA in 1965, where he got
involved in the local comics fan community, leading to a visit with
Shel Dorf and other fans to the Kirby house in 1969. That group of
fans wound up being immortalized as the San Diego Five-String Mob
in Jimmy Olsen, with young Barry serving as the visual inspiration
for Barri-Boy, the group’s “sixth string.” Jack later based the look of
Witchboy from The Demon on Barry as well. Currently living in
Pittsburgh, Barry was nominated for a Grammy Award for his liner
notes to a Peter, Paul and Mary collection, and also co-wrote a
Number One country song with Craig Bickhardt called “In Between
Dances” (performed by Pam Tillis in 1995). Barry graciously agreed
to this e-mail interview, which was conducted in September 2005.]
All characters ©2005 DC Comics.
THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: How’d you first meet Jack Kirby?
BARRY ALFONSO: It
happened more of less
this way: in the late
summer or early fall of
1969, I’d looked up a
local comic book dealer
named Richard Alf.
Around that time, I’d
also been in contact
with Shel Dorf, who (I
think) was trying to sell
some comics through
an ad in the local
paper. I recall putting
Richard and
Shel in contact
with one
another, and
that led to the
first meeting of
what became
the founding
group of the
San Diego
Comic-Con.
(Others attending were, I
believe, Bob
Sourk, Dan
Stewart, and
Mike Towry).
Shel knew Jack
Kirby and proposed that we
take a trip up
to his townhouse in
Irvine, CA
(where he was
living before he
moved to
Thousand
Oaks). Being a
12-year-old
Jack Kirby
fanatic, I was
thrilled, of
course.
32
TJKC: Are there any specific memories of that first meeting? Did
you see Jack drawing?
BARRY: Jack and his wife Roz were extremely welcoming and gracious to all of us. Roz made us hamburgers and Jack took us
around his house. I remember being amazed to see an original
Jack Kirby collage, as well as large prototype illustrations (colored) of new or redesigned characters, including a more elaborately-costumed Balder and a hero/villain named the Black
Sphinx. Jack also showed us samples of a project he hoped to
undertake: a comic book retelling of the Napoleonic Wars. He
was willing to answer any and all questions, and even cheerfully
accepted my comment that I didn’t like his version of Iron Man
so well because he let Tony Stark’s eyes show through the helmet.
(The impertinence!)
This first get-together (in Fall 1969) must’ve taken place
right around the time Jack left Marvel for DC. I recall asking him
about the “Inhumans” and “Ka-Zar” series he had been working
on. He said he had left them without any further ideas about
where they might’ve gone.
TJKC: How’d it feel when you saw you got a “solo” as Barri-Boy in
Jimmy Olsen? Did you know what to expect from that issue (having seen the art pre-publication), or was it a total surprise? What
led Jack to single you out of the Five String Mob, and make you
the “sixth string”?
BARRY: I’m not sure exactly how I felt about it. Thrilled and honored, obviously. But it also seemed to grow out of this relationship all of us had forged with Jack—he really seemed to have
taken a shine to us. I don’t believe any of us saw the artwork from
that Jimmy Olsen issue before it appeared, but we did know about
it. Why did Jack single me out? Maybe because I was the
youngest of the group and the most starry-eyed in my fanhood,
or something.
TJKC: Did you have any subsequent meetings with Jack, and if so,
how often?
BARRY: The gang from the San Diego Comic-Con—in various
combinations, with new people among us—must’ve visited Jack
at least five times total between 1969 and 1974. One of these visits was arranged by me (through Shel?) so I could interview him
for my ’zine, Mysticogryfil. Jack was always happy to see us and
the get-togethers were very jolly and inspiring. (I recall one time
that he mentioned a desire to use Ramon De La Flores as a pen
name—has that appeared anywhere before?)
TJKC: How did your Witchboy appearance in The Demon come
about? Did you know about Witchboy being based on you,
before the comic was released?
BARRY: Again, I’m not sure how it came about. I will say this—in
those days, when I was 13 or 14, my hair was growing longer and
I didn’t wash it as often as I might have. Consequently, it curled
into little horns around my ears. I think that—along with my
skinny appearance—inspired Jack to create this little witchboy
character with the horns at his temples. I guess I knew Witchboy
was going to appear in the Demon, but I don’t think I saw him
until the issue came out. I identified with Witchboy much more
than with Barri-Boy; there did seem to be some of me in there.
TJKC: Witchboy appeared twice; did you know he would be
returning, and did you ever discuss with Jack why he brought
him back?
BARRY: I wasn’t kept apprised of Witchboy’s whereabouts—Jack
probably felt it was best to let me know where he was when the
rest of the world did. I think Jack found Witchboy to be a likeably wicked foil for the Demon, as well as a way of keeping an injoke alive among his Comic-Con acolytes.
Near myths
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A look at Kirby’s use of legend and myth, by Shane Foley
(below) Kirby took a
second shot at
Prester John for
Marvel Two-In-One
#12 (Nov. 1975), if
only on the cover.
(next page) Merlin
debuts on the first
page of Demon #1
(Aug. 1972), shown
here in pencil.
Demon ©2005 DC Comics. Iron
Man, Thing ©2005 Marvel
Characters, Inc.
“If there’s been one theme running through the comics career of Jack
Kirby, it has been legend.”
(First Issue Special #1, text page)
et how well did Jack know and use the great themes of
legend? On the one hand, readers of Thor know well that
he had good knowledge of the Norse myths, using what he
wanted and ignoring what he didn’t. On the other, readers of
Black Panther #1 smiled at Jack’s reference to the story of “Ali
Baba and the Genie.”
Like most, my knowledge of actual legends is slim. I know a
few names and a few generally accepted, but often wrong, ideas
of some of the stories. So searching for some background on the
legends used in a few favorite Kirby stories would not only
enlighten me but reveal a bit about Kirby’s usage of them as well.
Y
Pandora’s Box
(House of Mystery #61, 1957)
Kirby’s story involves a strange “talking” chest being dumped at
sea, then the attempt of a witness on the ship to uncover the
mystery of the box. He is stopped just in time before he unleashes the horrors of the chest, revealed to be “Pandora’s Box.”
Pandora was, in classical myth, the Greek equivalent of Eve and
was the bringer of sorrows to mankind. When she went to live
amongst men, she was given a gift from the gods—a sealed jar
with all the misfortunes of existence inside. But her great curiosity got the better of her caution and she broke the seal, releasing
sorrow, disease and conflict into the world.
Thus, according to the legend, there is now no mystical box
or any other container to be found as in Kirby’s story.
44
Prester John (Fantastic Four #54, 1966)
In this story, Johnny Storm and Wyatt Wingfoot meet a character
called Prester John. He is dressed in “Medieval garb” and is in
suspended animation, courtesy of the “Chair of Survival.” When
he wakes, he states he has been there for 700 years. He had been
in the service of good King Richard and then travelled the world
as the Wanderer, ending up on the fabled Isle of Avalon.
So who was “Prester John”? In Medieval times there existed
a legend of a great King and Priest of God living in “the Far East,
beyond Persia and Armenia” known by the simple and humble
title of Presbyter or Prester John. (“Presbyter” means “Elder” in
Greek). In the 12th Century, letters supposedly by him circulated
in Europe, wherein he writes that his land which included “the
Three Indies” boasted rich natural resources, was “streaming with
honey, and overflowing with milk,” and was a place of peace and
justice. One traveller wrote, “In one region grows no poisonous
herb, nor does the querulous frog ever quack in it, no scorpion
exist, nor does the serpent glide amongst the grass.” Some records
speak of the fountain of youth freely available to all and of John
himself being 562 years old. He was said to be the guardian of the
shrine of St. Thomas, the apostle to India, at Mylapore. Some
sources said his worldly possessions included the Holy Grail,
inherited from his Uncle, the Round-Table Knight Sir Percival.
Mostly he was popularized as a hoped-for ally against the
Muslims. He was believed to be a Nestorian—a member of the
independent Eastern Christian Church, who did not accept the
authority of the Patriarch of Constantinople (the equivalent of
the Catholic Church’s Pope).
He was usually seen as a Christian priest-king, but Prester
John also appears in Medieval Jewish legend. One Jewish traveller
in the East between 1159 and 1173 wrote
that Prester John was a Jewish King who
ruled with great splendor over a Jewish
realm. A later account recorded John as
being a lineal descendant of Ogier the Dane,
who reached the north of India with 15 of
his barons. Marco Polo was one of many
other Middle Age travellers who claimed
John ruled a vast Central Asian Kingdom.
In his Travels, Marco Polo says Genghis
Khan “fought against Prester John and after
a desperate fight, overcame and slew him.”
Pope Alexander III sent a messenger to
him in 1177 but the messenger never
returned.
Later 14th Century reports from
Portuguese explorers began to place John’s
kingdom in Ethiopia. His legend continued,
and a 15th Century woodcut depicts him as
ruling in both India and Ethiopia.
No source that I looked up referred to
Prester John as one who had been in the
service of King Richard, as stated in FF
#54. (These references could only refer to
the later Prester John legends as King
Richard—of Robin Hood fame—lived in
the late 14th/early 15th Centuries.) Nor
did they mention he had been known as a
“Wanderer,” although for him to have set
up a Kingdom in the East, it would have
been required at one point. Jack’s Prester
John has very little in common with the
man of legend. Instead, though he is from
ancient times, he is a cosmic-minded traveller
who is at home with futuristic technology
Gallery 2
J
Myth-IllogicAl ARt
ack Kirby used established myths and legends as the basis for much of the work he did in
comics, but he rarely was faithful in his adaptations. From those big circles on Thor’s chest,
to his imagery of the Grim Reaper riding on a pair of airborne skis, nothing was terribly sacred
in his interpretations of characters who, throughout time, have held a certain almost religious
by Shane Foley
significance to society. Take the following pieces for example; while you’ll get a hint of the
source material they’re inspired by, chances are no one before (or after) Kirby ever envisioned
these characters quite the same—or as dramatically. ★
(this page) Jimmy Olsen #144, page
20 (Dec. 1971)
Kirby’s great wrap-up to the Evil
Factory storyline included his Fourth
World explanation for the Loch Ness
beastie of legend. What a beautifully
designed Nessie he did too!
(page 49) Forever People #9, page 21
(June 1972)
A séance, a liberal dose of New
Genesis technology, and a controversial
handling of Deadman combined with a
powerfully updated version on the
Frankenstein monster to give the
young gods of Supertown an explosive
Kirby struggle. If Kirby had any inkling
that his beloved Fourth World series
was fast coming to an end, one wouldn’t
know it from the power in his penciling.
Jack would also use Frankenstein-like
characters at DC in The Demon #11-13
and Jimmy Olsen #142-143.
(page 50) Kamandi #7, page 19
(July 1973)
As a change of pace after the death of
Flower in #6, Jack drew a parody of
King Kong for a fun-filled following
issue. (This was Steve Sherman’s
explanation from the letter’s page in
#12 anyway.) The last line in the comic
is great Kirby tongue-in-cheek humor.
(Look it up—it’s magic!) This shows
how close in some ways (but not in
others) Jack was to the movie!
(page 51) Sandman #7, page 12
(1975)
Even everyone’s favorite myth Santa
Claus got his turn under Kirby, albeit in
one of the handful of ’70s stories he
didn’t plot. Kirby’s usual dynamism is
often present, though by Kirby standards ol’ Santa is conservatively
drawn. But isn’t the pencil work nice!
(page 53) Eternals #5, page 11
(Nov. 1976)
Did Jack introduce this version of the
Greco-Roman gods to replace those
he’d introduced a decade earlier in
Thor? Or did he just like ’em and in
typical Kirby fashion, ignored the past so
he could have fun with an alternative
version? Either way, Olympus, Zeus,
Athena and Mercury were great springboards for Kirby’s imagination!
48
All characters TM & ©2005 DC Comics.
(page 52) Black Panther #6, cover
(Nov. 1977)
The Panther book was action from
beginning to end. And again, he was in
the thick of it from page 1 of his sixth
issue. Involved in a plot to find the legendary Cup of Youth, you can bet what
the Panther found was uniquely Kirby
and had little to do with any ‘real’ myth.
All characters TM & ©2005 DC Comics.
49
Retrospective
Thor The Thunderer
either Stan Lee nor Jack Kirby really
created the Mighty Thor. They simply
borrowed him from mythology.
N
54
by Will Murray
“One of our established titles, Journey into Mystery, needed a shot in the arm,” Lee
once wrote, “so I picked Thor, the Norse God of Thunder, to headline the book.
After writing an outline depicting the story and the characters I had in mind, I
asked my brother, Larry, to write the script because I didn’t have time. Always
dependable, Larry did a great job on it and it was only natural for me to assign
the penciling to Jack Kirby, who drew it as though he had spent
his whole life in Asgard, the home of the gods.”
“Well, I knew the Thor legends very well,” Kirby allowed,
“but I wanted to modernize them. I felt that might be a new
thing for comics, talking the old legends and modernizing them.
I believe I accomplished that. Thor is an ancient myth—what I
did was make him salable once again.”
The year was 1962. Lee and Kirby were busily converting
fantasy anthology comic books like Strange Tales and Journey into
Mystery into super-hero showcases to build a new line following
the surprise success of their Fantastic Four. Lee had been Marvel’s
editor since 1941, while Kirby had recently returned after long
estrangement from the comics house for which he had co-created
Captain America two decades before.
“I knew that they were lacking super-heroes,” Kirby recalled.
“Nobody had really done many in many a year. After the war the
super-heroes kind of faded, but of course after a certain amount
of time it was time to bring them back. So I brought back the
super-heroes. And that’s where all your Fantastic Fours come
from. That’s where Thor comes from. I took anything powerful
that could sell a magazine—and I did.”
Which of the two men first had the inspiration that a Norse
legend could be adapted to comic books is unknown. The popularity of Steve Reeves’ Hercules movies may have given either one the
idea. Comments both Lee and Kirby later made seem to suggest
that their thinking began with Hercules. Yet both Lee and Kirby
claimed to have been struck by inspirational Nordic lightning first.
“Thor I got from the Germanic legends, the Norwegian
myths,” claimed Kirby. “I would take a lot of the stories from the
legends. So instead of doing Hercules I would use Thor because
nobody used the Norwegian legends.”
“Nobody had ever done anything with the Norse legends,”
Lee asserted. “We had the Hulk who was the strongest living
human on Earth, and then we even had the Thing who was
almost as strong. I wanted to do a new book and I said to Jack,
‘Who can we get that’s even more impressive? ...After a while it
occurred to me that the only way to make something bigger and
stronger than the strongest creature on Earth was to create someone who is outside of our little ol’ home planet.”
Kirby had a track record. The
Nordic thunderer had been popping up in his stories since the
1940s, most often as a villain. His
earliest mythological creation,
Mercury, was renamed “Hurricane,
Son of Thor” when the character
switched from Red Raven Comics to
Captain America in 1941. A year
later, Simon and Kirby’s Sandman
battled a wild-bearded foe calling
himself Thor in “The Villain from
Valhalla.” And there were others.
“I did a version of Thor for DC
in the ’50s before I did him for
Marvel,” Kirby pointed out. “He
had a red beard but he was a legendary figure, which I liked. I liked
the figure of Thor at DC and I created Thor at Marvel because I was
forever enamored of legends. I knew
all about these legends which is why
I knew about Balder, Heimdall, and
Odin. I tried to update Thor and
put him in a super-hero costume.
He looked great in it and everybody
loved him, but he was still Thor.”
That story, “The Magic
Hammer,” appeared in Tales of the
Unexpected #16, dated August,
1957—exactly five years before the
Marvelized Thor debuted in Journey
into Mystery #83, August 1962. The
1957 Thor was clad in the traditional bearskins and horned helmet.
Otherwise the only similarity lay in
the hammer—Kirby carried the
design over unchanged.
The way Lee told it, reviving Thor was a creative struggle in
which Jack Kirby was uncharacteristically bereft of ideas.
“I figured the only thing to do is get a god,” Lee continued.
“There’s nothing more impressive than a god. So Jack said, ‘Yeah,
that sounds good.’ So I started to think—the Roman gods, the
Greek gods, a lot had been done with them... we’d all seen
Hercules and the others, but people don’t know much about the
Norse gods... including me. So I started looking them up and
when I got to Thor I just thought, gee, a guy who is the god of
thunder and lightning—that’s impressive.... So, when I re-read
the saga of Thor, God of Thunder, and his mighty hammer, I
knew I had found our next super-hero!
“I told Jack about it and when I saw the way he drew Thor it
was just wonderful... the outfit he gave him... the hammer. I wanted
him to have that hammer, and I came up with a plot so he could.”
Jack Kirby recalled it quite differently.
“I came up with Thor,” he said flatly. “I knew the Thor legends very well.... I came up with Thor because I’ve always been a
history buff. I know all about Thor and Balder and Mjolnir, the
hammer. Nobody ever bothered with that stuff except me. I loved
it in high school and I loved it in my pre-high school days... that’s
what kept me in school—it wasn’t the mathematics and it wasn’t
the geography; it was history.”
“As far as I can remember,” insisted Lee on another occasion, “Norse mythology always turned me on. There was something about those mighty, horn-helmeted Vikings and their tales
of Asgard, of Ragnarok, of the Aesir, the Fire Demons, and
immortal, eternal Asgard, home of the gods. If ever there was a
rich lode of material into which Marvel might dip, it was there—
and we would mine it.”
Perhaps the absolute truth lay in the middle. After all, Thor
had been around for centuries. But where Thor was concerned,
Yet Lee was no
stranger to the
swashbuckler either. His
favorite actor, Errol Flynn, was renowned for his
costume epics. A decade before Lee had scripted an Arthurian
comic called The Black Knight, which he considered the high
point of his pre-Marvel Age work.
“When I was a kid,” he pointed out, “I fantasized about
Robin Hood, King Arthur, King Richard—even Charles
Lindbergh. You imagine you’re going to do great things. I saw
Errol Flynn movies and I wanted to be Errol Flynn. Every time I
left the theater, I had a crooked little smile on my face and I
swashbuckled down the street. Until I was ten years old, I wished
that I had a sword by my side.”
Either way, neither man was about to do a direct adaptation
of the Norse thunderer.
“Before staring the series,” Lee told one reader, “we stuffed
ourselves to the gills with Norse mythology, as well as almost every
(above) Charlton’s Out of
This World #11 (Feb.
1959) contained a Steve
Ditko story featuring a
young Viking named Thor
who discovers a magic
hammer in a cave—more
than three years before
Marvel’s Thor debut!
(previous page) A simply
spectacular Thor commission from 1975.
Thor TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters,
Inc. Out of This World © Charlton
Comics.
55
Parting Shot
Demon #16 (Jan. 1974) wasn’t supposed to be the last issue, at least as far as Jack knew when he drew these pencils for
its final page. Kirby clearly had in mind a theme for the next issue, as evidenced by the final panel. We can only wonder
what new spin the Vampire myth would have received in that story from the delightfully unpredictable Kirby imagination.
IF YOU ENJOYED THIS PREVIEW,
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80
Characters TM & ©2005 DC Comics.
KIRBY COLLECTOR #44
KIRBY’S MYTHOLOGICAL CHARACTERS! Coverage of
DEMON, THOR, & GALACTUS, interview with KIRBY, MARK
EVANIER, pencil art galleries of the Demon and other mythological characters, two never-reprinted BLACK MAGIC stories, interview with Kirby Award winner DAVID SCHWARTZ and F4
screenwriter MIKE FRANCE, and more! Kirby cover inked by
MATT WAGNER!
Galactus TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.