Oral history interview with Otto Natzler, 1980 July 7-14

ARCHIVES OF AMERICAN ART
SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION
·CALIFORNIA ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
CONTENT OUTLINE
INTERVIEW WITH OTTO NATZLER
LOCATION:
Subje ct's ho me , Los Ange le s
DATES:
July 7,9,11, and 14, 1980
INTERVIEWER:
Rut h Bo wman
Pages
Co nt e nts
1-20
Childho o d. E a r ly inte rest in art, int e r e st in sculpt ure.
Ent e rs t extile scho o l. Rise o f Nazism in Aust r ia . Jo b
as t e xt ile designe r , 1928.
Be cause o f ant i-Jewish
sent iment , te xtile company is put o ut o f busine ss.
Ot to loses jo b.
Me e t s Ge rt r ud Amo ns.
Ge rt r ud st udies
ce r amics with F r a nz Iskr a. Ot t o t rie s hand at clay, begins
studies wit h Isk r a . Fe e lings t o wa rd clay as a me dium
(p.14).
Rent studio t o ge t he r, purchase first kiln.
Init ial expe r iment s and "failures" wit h firing. Fir st o f
Nat zle r gla zes a r e m ade.
21-40
Discusse s r e duct ion firing. Ge r t rud and Ott o begin t o
collabo r at e o n t heir wo rk. Ge rt r ud co nce nt r at e s on thro wing
a nd fo rm, a nd Ot t o o n t he o the r aspe cts p a r t icula rly
glaze s. De r Wohnr aum is first st o r e t o c a r ry t heir wo rk.
Discusses Nazi t ake o ve r in Aust r ia. In 1937, e nte r five
pie ce s in t he Wo rld's Expo sit io n in Pa r is. Ge r t r ud and
Ot t o de cide to le a ve Aust ria.
M a r ry. P r o blems in ge t t ing
immigr a t io n do cume nt s. Immig r a t e t o Lo s Ange les.
41-55
Se t t ling in Lo s Ange les. Init ial inte r est in Natzle r s'
potte r y. Me e t A r t hur Millie r , critic fo_r t he Los Ange le s
Times. Millie r r e views their wo rk. Ente r t he National
Ce r amic Exhibit ion, Syracuse, Ne w Yo rk, 1939. Me et
James Prest ini, sculpt o r. Re presented in Lo s Ange les by
Dalze ll Hatfield. Hatfield r e spo nsible fo r incre ase in
sale s and fo r se ve r al museum e xhibit io ns.
Visit Ne w Yo r k.
55-71
Purchase ne w ho me . Pro blems in se t t ing up ne w st udio.
P r o blems with phot ogr a phing ce r amics. Info r m a l chambe r
music co nce rts in t he Natzle r s' home. Int r o duction to
Yoga.
Co nduct summe r ce r amic wo r kshops at t he B r a ndeis
Inst itut e , Sant a Susana, Califo r nia. In 1958-1959, e xhibit
in Euro pe at t he Kunst gewe r be Museum in Swit ze rland,and
at t he Bezalel Natio nal Museum in Isr a e l.
OTTO NATZLER
CONTENT OUTLINE
PAGE 2
Co nt e nt
72-90
Trip t o Isr ael, visit Aust ria.
Discuss fe elings abo ut
t he cha nge s in Aust ria-due t o Wo r ld W a r II.
Discuss
their spo nso rs a nd frie nds, Le o na r d a nd Ro se "Buddie "
Spe r ry.
Ro se Spe r r y's ret r o spect ive co lle ct io n o f N a t zle rs'
wo rk.
Effect and impo rt ance o f light ing ce r amics.
Disco ve r y o f Ge r t rud's cance r , 1963. De Yo ung Muse um
r e t r o spe ct ice.
Ge rt r ud's de ath.
91-10 1
Me e t s Gail Reyno lds.
Wo r ks o n mo bile s. Glazes Ge r t rud's
remaining ce r amics.
Re nwick Galle r y re t r o spe ct ive , 1973.
Ma r r ies Gail.
Be gins clay co nst r uct io ns.
10 2-110
V a r io us lo cal clays t he Nat zle rs use in t he i r wo rk.
Ot t o 's
a ppr o ach t o de ve lo ping glazes. Fe e lings about crit ics.
Opinio n o f t he t re atment of ce r amics as a r t by muse ums.
ARCH IVE S OF AMERICAN A RT
SMI T H S ON IAN IN S T I TU TI ON
CAL I F ORN I A ORAL
H I S TORY P ROJEC T
TAPE REC O RDE D I NTERVIEW WI TH OTTO NAT Z LER
AT MR . NAT Z L E R ' S H OME IN LO S ANGEL E S
DAT E :
J ULY 7 , 9�11,14, 1980
INTERVIEWER :
RUTH B OWMAN
ON :
GN :
RB :
OTTO NAT Z LER
GA IL NAT Z LER
RUT H B OWMAN
RB :
I t ho ught we ' d be gin by t a l k in g abo ut y o ur b e gi nn ings .
ON :
Obvious ly I w a s bo rn .
I w a s bo rn on t he 3 1 s t o f Jan ua ry , 1 9 0 8 ,
in Vienn a .
I c an ' t t e l l y o u the e xa c t t ime .
The on ly p e r son
who gave me the c lo se s t e s t imat e wa s the witne s s who w a s n ' t
pre s e nt , n ame ly my s i s t e r Ne l ly who w a s at s c h o o l b e twe e n two
and four in t he a f t e rnoon .
Whe n she went to s c h o o l I wa s n ' t
There f o r e , I m us t have
t he r e and when s he c ame ba c k , I wa s .
b e en bo rn betwe e n two and four .
RB :
Y o u we re the s ec o n d c hi ld ?
ON :
I w a s the l a s t o ne , a c t ua l ly the f i fth .
RB :
Were y o u the f i r s t boy ?
ON :
No ,
RB :
S o t he r e ' s o n ly one gir l in y o ur f ami ly .
ON :
My p ar en t s l i ve d in Vienn a , and I grew up the r e .
My f a t he r ,
S i gmun d , w a s a p r ac t ic i n g de nt i s t , and my mo the r , F r i e d a , a
ho us ewi fe , int e r e s t e d in a l l s o r t s o f c ul t ur a l d o i ngs , b ut
When I wa s s i x ye ar s o l d Wo r ld
not c re a t i ve ly pro duc t ive .
Wa r I s t ar t e d and i t had a con s i de r ab le e f f ec t on me , i n a s ­
much a s my o lde s t brother who w a s s t udy i n g med i c ine a t the
t ime (he wa s twe lve y e a r s o ld er th an I ) vo l un t e e r e d for t he
Aus t r i an a rmy , and t he Aust r i an a rmy , b e in g what i t w a s , h e
c o n t r a c t e d typho id feve r and d i e d in 1 9 1 6 when I w a s e i ght
y e ar s o ld .
I t w a s the f i r s t t ime some t hing re al ly h i t me ,
when I s aw my father cry .
I t w a s a t r aum at i c e xp e r ie nc e .
Of c o ur s e , dur ing the war V i e nn a wa s an extr eme ly s omber c i ty .
There was not eno ugh food for p e op l e to e at , eve ry t hi n g w a s
r at ioned , inc l ud i n g brea d .
F ue l w a s r at ioned and o ften n o t
ava i l a b l e , ho us e s wer e c o ld and eve ry t h i n g was very d i sma l .
F o r t un ate ly , I had r e l a t i ve s in the c o untry , whi c h i s now a
part o f C z echo s lovaki a .
At t hat t ime i t s t i l l b e l on ge d to
the Aus t r i an - H un ga r i an Emp i r e .
An unc l e of mine , David We i s s ,
He had a f arm , a
wa s marrie d to my mo ther ' s s i ste � G i s a .
Ma l e Le v ar e l a t e r o � when
p l ac e c a l l e d K l e i n - S c h lit z en o r
I wa s t he fourth boy .
And y o ur p arent s ?
2
i t bec ame C ze c ho s lo vak ian .
As c hi ldren , e spe c i a l ly dur ing
the war , we wo ul d be s ent there dur ing vac a t i o n t i me -­
C hr i s tm a s , E a s t e r , and of c o ur s e s umme r vac a t io n wh i c h l a s te d
two mon t h s .
I t w a s j us t a s h o r t t r ain r i de from V i e nn a ,
m ayb e an hour and a ha l f to D u rmkr ut .
There we w e r e p ic k e d
up b y a h o r s e and c ar r i age and i t w a s another o n e h o ur r i d e
to t h e f a rm an d the f a rmho use .
Two an d a ha l f hour s a l t o ­
ge the r , a shor t di s t anc e o f m aybe le s s than f i f ty m i l e s from
Food
the c ity an d you we r e in a c omp l e t e ly d i f f e r en t wo r ld .
w a s ava i lab l e , p lent i ful , and woo d for h e at ing t he house , and
e sp ec i al ly in w i n t e r t ime when we arr i ve d for Chr i s tmas , it
wa s a won de r ful expe r ience to c ome from the c o l d , d i smal c i ty
into a w arm hous e whe r e the f ragrance o f who l e some foo d wa s
a l l p r e va i l in g .
I t wa s unb e l i e vab l e .
To us h e r e i t p r o b ­
ably h a s no me an i n g , but w h e n w e were c h i ldren grow i n g up in
Vie nna , it wa s s ometh ing v e ry up l i f t i ng .
I n t ime , e spec i al ly
d ur i n g t he war , i t bec ame a r i t ua l :
we were we ighe d i n whe n
U s ua l l y we ga i n e d
w e arr i ve d an d we ighed o ut when we l e f t .
be twee n e ight a nd twe lve p o un d s dur in g a we e k o r t en day s
vac a t io n .
Howeve r , t he r e wer e o t he r c o n s e q uenc e s , n ame ly ,
the f i r s t n i ght w a s alway s d i ff ic ul t b e c a u s e we w e r e n o t used
t o r e a l f o o d , so at n i ght we -- at l e a s t I , a lway s got s ic k .
My unc l e w a s a very s imp le man .
He w a s deep ly re l i g i o us and
tho ugh he neve r t r i e d to i n f l uence anybody , he hims e l f o b ­
s e r ve d a l l t h e hol iday s .
Dur ing Yorn K ip p ur , o f c o ur se , h e
f a s t e d al l d a y long , and a t P a s s o ve r h e he l d the S e d e r f o r
everybody .
I n the i r ho use they c onve r t e d on e room into a
synagog ue d ur ing the ho l iday s , and the f ew Jews who l ive d i n
t he v i l lage c ame an d a s semb l e d the r e t o p r ay .
Unc l e David
There w a s an un us ua l a tmo sphere i n the i r ho use .
was no t i n t e r e s t e d in art at a l l b ut , s t r ange ly e n o ugh , I had
my f i r s t art educ a t ion there b e c ause o f a c a l e n d a r on t h e
wa l l - - wh at d o y o u c a l l i t , whe r e y o u remo ve a l e a f eve ry
day .
The r e w a s a p ag e f o r e a c h day and e ac h p age h a d a
pa inting :
Rembrandt , T i t i an , D ur e r , Tintore tto .
I t wa s my
t as k t o remo ve a p age e ac h day t o keep t he c a lenda r c urrent ,
I t awak e n e d my
and t h i s w a s the f i r s t t ime I ·l o o ke d at art .
I kept s ome o f
intere s t , j us t by removi ng one p a g e a day .
the s e l e ave s to my s e l f i n s t e ad o f throwin g t hem away .
The p l ac e w a s a l so inte r e s t ing b e c a us e the popul a t ion t h e r e
w a s very m i xe d .
Mo s t o f the p e o p l e we r e S lovak s , b ut t he r e
w e r e some C ze c h s among them , some Hun ga r i an s , and a p a r t o f
the vi l la ge was comp l e t e ly s ep ar a t e .
I t w a s a Gyp sy vi l l age .
I rec a l l that once we went the r e to attend a Gyp sy wed d i n g
a n d I m arve l e d a t the i r c o s t ume s an d t he mus ic t h a t wa s g o i ng
And then I r e c a l l o n e New Y e a r ' s day ,
on dur in g t he wedding .
e a r l y in the morn ing f o ur o r f ive Gyp s i e s c ame with s t r ing
i n s trume nt s , and o ut in t he c o urtyard they p layed mus i c , and
then my unc l e wo ul d go o ut t o g i ve them mo ney an d they l e f t .
B ut I j us t m arve led at the ir mus i c an d I s ai d to my un c l e ,
" Do y o u know , I wo ul d l ike t o b e a mus i c i an .
I wo uld l i ke
3
I gue s s my s ub c o n s c i o us tho ught wa s ,
to p l ay the vio l i n . "
i f tho se dumb Gyp s i e s c an p lay so we l l , I c an do i t too .
S o the n e xt t hin g I knew , Unc le David , who went to V i enn a
o n b us ine s s abo ut on c e a wee k , c ame ba c k and b r o ught me a
l it t l e vio l in - - ha l f s i z e - - and that wa s the be ginn i n g
o f m y i nt er e s t i n mus ic .
Abo ut two mon t h s l at e r I had my
f ir s t vio l in l e s son , and I wan t e d to become a m us i c i an .
Maybe I shouldn ' t e labo r a t e on e a r l y c h i ldhood that much .
I c o n t in ued t he s t udy o f t he v io l in .
I a l so f in i s he d
e leme n t ary schoo l , i t wa s dur i n g t h e wa r a n d a t r a um at i c
e xpe r i e n c e bec a us e the c l a s s e s were eno rmo us - - there were
Mo s t o f the
betwe e n f i fty an d s i xty s t uden t s in one c la s s .
s c hoo l b ui l d i n gs were us e d by the army , e i t he r for r e c r ui t i n g
c e n t e r s o r f o r h o s p i t al s , mo s t ma l e t e a che r s we re d r a f t e d
The s c hoo l whe r e I s t ar t e d - - I t h i n k I we n t
i n t o t h e a rmy .
the r e f o r abo ut two o r t hr e e we e k s - - w a s one o f the f ir s t
t o go then I w a s t r an s f e r r e d t o another s c h o o l , and soon a f t e r
t o a t h ir d .
O ur e lement ary e d uc a t io n whi c h , un der normal
c on d i t ion s , wo ul d have be e n s i x day s a we e k , w i th c l a s se s
mo rn ings and a f t e rn o on s , c on s i s t e d o f e ither two h o urs i n t he
mo rn i n g or two hour s i n the a ft e rnoon , s o our t r a in i n g w a s
r ather l imited .
Only dur in g m y l a s t y e ar o f e lement ary
schoo � the war wa s ove r and , tho ugh t h i n gs d idn ' t bec ome
normal a s yet , at l e a s t I h a d s i x day s o f s c ho o l a we e k ,
f o ur ho ur s a day .
From e l ement ary s c h o o l I wa s t r an s f e r r e d
to wh at w a s c a l l e d t he Re a l s c hul e , wh i c h was a h i gh s c hoo l .
RB :
How o ld we r e y o u?
ON :
I w a s ten y e ar s o ld - - e l eve n - - bec a use I s t a r t e d late .
I w a s j us t at the border l ine , and I s t ar t e d schoo l at a ge
s i x and three qua rt e r s and we nt on to ten and three qua rt e r s .
S o I w a s n e ar l y e l e ven y e a r s o ld whe n I s t ar t e d at t he Re a l ­
s chul e .
At that t ime I s t ar t e d to get inte r e s te d in dr aw i n g ,
b ut even mo re s o in s c ulp t ur e , howe ve r , i n a very p r imit i ve
w ay .
I had s ome p la s t i c ine wh ich I used to p l ay w i t h , b ut I
never s howe d any o f my wo r k s to any o f my t e ach e r s .
When I
w a s fo urteen I got very much inte r e s te d in c h emi s t ry .
The
r e a son wa s that H ugo F ul da , who was t he b e s t te acher I eve r
He wa s one o f t h o s e r are
had , wa s my chem i s t ry t e ac he r .
h uman be ings who w a s not only intere s t e d in h i s pro fe s s ion
but who loved y o ung peop l e .
He had a f a s c in a t i n g way o f
exp l a in ing t h in gs .
I t was a lway s inter e s t i n g t o l i s t e n to
h i s pre s e n t at ion s , e ven when i t c ame to the m athem at ic s and
the so lving o f c hemi c a l equa t i on s .
I ab so r bed e ve ry th i n g
he h a d t o o f f e r in my on ly ye ar in h i s c l a s s .
He w a s o n e
o f tho se r are peop le who j udge d everybo dy b y h i s ab i l i t i e s
an d demanded mor e from s omebody who h ad mo r e ab i l i ty than
from somebody who had l e s s .
I wa s somewhat unhappy that I
a lway s got a " two " in c h em i s try , a s I f e lt t hat I an swe r e d
a l l q ue s t i o n s c o rrec t ly a n d tho ught I knew e ve ryth i n g .
RB :
What wa s the b e s t grade ?
4
ON :
" One . " And o n c e I t a l k e d to h i m abo ut i t and h e s a id , " We l l ,
I exp e c t even mo r e from y o u . "
F i na l ly , in the la s t s e me s t e r ,
I got a " one . "
Dr . F ul d a wa s an un u s ua l p e r son .
He l oo k e d
l i ke t he c a r i c a t ur e o f a s c i e n t i s t - - a l i t t l e man , very
t hi n , l o n g drawn face , b i g spe c t ac l e s , and h e wal ked very
s lowly an d spoke very s lowly .
We had a l o t of what we c a l l ed
( r a s c a l s ) in o ur c l a s s , and they wo uld make f un
Laus bub e n
o f eve rybo dy , b ut very s e ldom o f Dr . F ul da , o ur c h e m i s try
t e ache r , even tho ugh h e wa s p r ac t i c a l ly i n v i t i n g the m .
He
t r e a t e d e ve rybody l i ke grown -up peop l e and that f l oo r e d e ve n
the rascals .
I a m very , very gr ate f ul to th i s man .
I think
he in f l ue n c e d my l i f e mor e t han anyb o dy e l se , b e c a use he
d i r e c t e d me to use my bra i n for th ink i ng and n o t a ny t h i n g
e lse .
He n o t o n ly t aught h i s s ub j e c t , b ut h e t aught a l l o f
u s l o gi c , how to conc l ude from one fac t what the n e xt mi ght
b e , and so on and so forth .
He wrote h i s own c hemi s try
t e xt and he c o mp la in e d b i t te r ly - - o bvious ly eve ry ye ar
bec ause h e s a id , " Yo u know , I ' ve be en t e ac h i n g my c l a s s in
c h e mi s t ry now for the l a s t twenty y e ar s , and I f ind e ve ry
y e a r e i ther my s t uden t s get d umbe r o r I get wor s e a s a
t e ac he r , b e c ause e very y e ar I ' m fa rther b e h ind in my t e xt . "
I t hi n k h i s s t udent s go t dumbe r , t h e r e ' s no que s t i on abo ut
i t , b e c a us e he wa s a marve l o us t e ac he r and a very un us ua l
one .
I n many way s he w a s very un us ua l :
there we r e no fo r ma l
On ly once eve ry s e me s ter h e wo uld a s k
e x a mi n at ion s e ve r .
h i s s t ude n t s t o c o me t o the l ab i n the a f te rnoon f o r a n
e xa mi n at ion , and t h e y c o uld d e t e r mi ne when they woul d l i ke
to c o me .
He didn ' t say , " Yo u have to c o me ne xt Thur s day
and we ' 11 have an exami nat ion , " i n s te ad :
" Y o u c an s e t a
Y o u c an c o me a ny a f ternoon
date whene ve r y o u want to c o me .
B ut i t wa s
y o u de c ide . "
He did t h i s all on h i s own t i me .
not j us t an o r d inary exa min at i o n , i t w a s an i n f o r ma l d i s ­
c us s ion that c overed eve ryth i n g , t he who l e wo r l d , an d i t
w a s an inte r e s t ing e xpe r ie nce for us .
I w a s very unhappy
that I had to le ave h i m af t e r .one y e ar , bec a use a f t e r that
one ye ar I ' d f o r gotten t h at I w an t e d to beco me a mus ic i an ,
I ' d fo r gotten that I wan t e d to b e c o me an art i s t , I w an t e d
to s t udy c h e mi s try .
Howeve r , due t o my o ld e s t brother ' s
d e ath , due to t he f a c t t hat my s e c o nd brothe r , P a ul , w ho
w a s s e ven ye ar s o lder t han I , had s tudi e d e n gine e r i n g and
had gr eat d i f f i c ulty in f in d i n g a j o b in Aus t r i a , d ue to
the f a c t that my s i s t e r N e l ly w a s a p ainter -- very t al e n t e d ,
b ut n eve r e arne d a penny w i t h i t - - my p a r e n t s dec i d e d o the r ­
wi s e .
My father f e l t t hat h e w a s get t ing o l d , and my mo t he r
f e l t that s he h ad eno ugh with one a rt i s t i n the f a mi ly a n d
o n e engine e r who had d i ff ic ul ty f in d i n g j o b s - - th e r e for e ,
I s hould get into s o me p r ac t i c a l pro fe s s ion .
Q ui t e o b­
vio us ly she mus t have t al k e d i t o ve r w i th one o f my unc l e s
who w a s a very s uc c e s s ful bus ine s s man and t he two de c i d e d
t h a t I shoul d ge t t r a i n ing a s a t ex t i l e de s i gne r , o r
engine e r .
And c o ming back f r o m my s ummer va c a t ion in I t a ly
that y e a r , my mo ther t o l d me , " To mo rrow you have to go to
the Te xti l sc h ul e , they ho ld entr ance e xa mi n at i o n s for y o u .
I s a id , " How c an y o u do s uc h a t h in g?
I r e gi s te r e d f o r you . "
-­
5
I ' m not go i n g t o go the r e . "
" Yo u w i l l go there . "
" Okay ,
then I ' l l f l un k . "
I had a l l i n t e n t i o n s o f f l un ki n g , b ut
t he exami nat ion w a s so e asy t ha t I wo uld have b e e n a sh amed
not to an swer the q ue s t ion s c o r r ec t ly , and t he r e I w a s
enter i n g t he
Bunde s lehran s t a l t f ur Text i l - Indust r i e i n Wien .
RB :
What ye ar w a s i t ?
ON :
1 92 3 .
F o rt una t e ly , t h e c ur r i c ul um wa s not c o mp le t e ly l imited
to i ndus t r i a l s ub j e c t s .
The r e we r e a l s o human i s t ic s ub j ec t s ,
s uc h a s lan gua ge s , hi s tory , s c i e n c e , e t c .
Soon a f t e r I met
a kindred s o ul there .
He w a s one c la s s h i gh e r than I s t udy­
ing at the schoo l and wa s in mo r e or l e s s the s ame po s i t ion .
He w a s F r i t z B e r e n s and he d i dn ' t want to a t t e n d th i s p art i ­
c ul a r s c hoo l e i ther .
A n unc l e o f h i s put him t he r e b e c a us e
hi s p a r en t s h a d p a s s e d away a n d h i s unc le wante d h im to have
a p r a c t i c a l e duc at ion .
He w a s a mus ic i an , an e xc e l l en t
p i an i s t , a n d t h e two o f us me t bec a use I w a s a v e r y amb i t i o us
ope r a goe r .
I went to t he o p e r a a t l e a s t once a we e k , s ome ­
t i me s twi c e o r t hree t ime s .
I t wa s there I me t th i s boy
whom I h a d s e e n in the Text i l s c h ul e , and it i s o n l y n a t ura l
when you me e t i n comp le t e l y d i f f e rent s ur r o un d i n gs y o u s t art
He .t o l d me h i s who l e s t o ry and I
ta l k i n g to e a c h othe r .
to l d him mine , and t he n e xt t h i n g w a s we got t o b e very goo d
Fr i t z
f r ie n d s and s t arte d p l ay in g c hamber mus i c to ge th e r .
s a i d , " I ' m go ing to f in i sh the s c h o o l n o m at t e r what , b ut a s
soon a s I ' m f i n i shed I ' m go i n g to devo t e my t ime to mus i c . "
He c o ul d do i t bec a use even a t the e a r ly a ge o f s i xt e e n , he
had a lr e a dy s t udent s who took p i an o l e s s o n s from h im and so
h e c o ul d s uppor t himse l f w i t h p i ano l e s son s .
He w a s an
e xc e l l en t p i an i s t .
Later on he s t arted compo s in g .
I wa s
o n e o f the f i r s t who p l ay e d s ome o f hi s vio l i n c ompo s i t i on s .
We l l , I a l so f i n i s he d schoo l , and s e e i n g my fr i e nd F r i t z
B e r e n s get t i n g c omp l e te ly inde pe nde nt a s a mus ic i an , I f e l t
I ' m go i n g t o d o t he s ame .
Di s c us s i n g t hi s with my mo the r ,
I s a id , " Lo o k , I ' m go i n g t o f in i sh schoo l a s y o u wanted me
to do .
Howe ve r , a f t e r I ' m f in i shed w i t h s c ho o l I ' m go i n g
t o s t udy a t t h e Academy o f Mus i c in Vi e nn a , a t le a s t f o r
one y e a r , a n d s e e h o w f a r I get . "
We l l , i t too k s ome f i gh t ­
i n g , b ut f ina l ly my mo ther gave in and I prepa r e d for the
e n t r an c e examinat ion in the m a s t e r c la s s o f Pro f e s so r S twertka
I r e c a l l t hat I p r e p a r e d t he Mo z art
at the A c a demy o f Mus i c .
C o n c e r to in D ve ry we ll , but when I p l ayed it I b l un d e r e d .
I made two very d umb m i s t ak e s and I f l unked the ent rance
I t wa s a l so
e xamina t ion - - s ome t hi n g I wa s not p r e p ared for .
t he y e a r when the r e were o ve r t h i r ty app l ic an ts fo r t h a t
p art i c ul ar c l a s s , a n d t hey ac c ep t e d o n l y thre e , an d I wa s n o t
one o f t hem .
V i e n n a in 1 9 2 7 w a s becomin g a v e r y d i f f i c ul t
c i ty .
I t w a s the b e ginn ing o f the N a z i s , t ho ugh n o t q uite
y e t , for the N a z i s we r e s t i l l in Ge rmany .
I t was in 1 9 2 8
when the f ir s t revo l ut ion c ame at the P a l a c e o f Just i c e , i t
w a s s e t af ire a n d t h e po l ic e move d in an d they s h o t mo r e
than a hundred peop l e .
6
RB :
Who s t ar t e d t he f i r e ?
ON :
I t wa s t he S o c i a l i s t s .
Po l i t i c al mur d e r s o f S o c i a l i s t s w ere
r ather f requen t , b ut t he a t t a c ke r s us ua l ly we n t s c o t - free ,
even t ho ugh gui l t w a s e s t ab l i shed in t he c o urt t r i al s .
For
s o me r e ason they u s ua l ly f o und l o opho l e s , a n d i t wa s o ften
o bvious t ha t the j udge s we r e c o r r up t .
At the l a t e s t o n e - ­
I f o r go t t h e e xa c t c ir c umst anc e s - - i t w a s ve ry o bv i o us that
the de f endant s we r e gui lty , and aga in t hey we r e acq ui t t e d o f
mur d e r .
I t a l l s t ar t e d w i t h a p e a c e f ul demon s tr at io n by t he
Soc i al i s t s , b ut soon i t got mo r e and mo r e invo lved and i n
no t i me i t bec a me a c o mp lete upr i s in g .
A part i al s t r i ke wa s
c a l l ed which b e c a me a gene r a l s t r i ke and t hen they mar c h e d
tow a r d s t h e P a l a c e o f J us t ic e and the n e xt t h i n g s o mebody
s e t fi re to the Pa l a c e o f J us t i c e and i t went up in f l a me s .
I r e ca l l that I w a s n o t too fa r f r o m there a t that t i me .
I
c o ul d s e e t he d e mon s t r ation .
The may o r o f Vienna wa s Kar l
Se i t z , a S o c i al i s t , who tr i e d to ge t through t o the P a l a c e
o f Jus t i c e by p ut t i n g h i ms e l f o n t o p o f a f i r e e n gi n e .
The
peop le r e c o gn i z e d h i m and made way for h i m when the po l ic e
c a me i n from t he o t h e r s i de and s t ar t e d t o shoot .
The r evo l t
l a s te d for f o ur o r f i ve day s .
They even bro ught i n art i l l e ry
and s t ar t e d to go a f t e r s o me o f the s t ro n gho l d s o f the
S o c i al i s t s who w e r e s us p e c t e d to be in s o me of t he c o mmun a l
b ui ld i ngs wh i c h were e r e c t e d by t h e ci ty o f Vi enna d ur i n g
t h e l a s t t e n y e ar s .
S o me o f t he b ui l d ings w e r e ve ry b a d l y
I t wa s the beginn ing o f a ve ry d i f f ic ul t t i me for
d a mage d .
A us t r i a .
Th i s s o -c a l l e d r e vo lut ion w a s c o mp le t e ly q ua sh e d .
Some peop l e got very s e ve r e se ntenc e s .
S o me o f the l e a d i ng
po l it i c i an s were arr e s t e d , indic ted , and s o me o f the m we r e
sentenced to de ath a n d s ub se quen t l y e xe c ute d .
RB :
We r e you invo lved d i r e c t ly in thi s ?
ON :
No .
Tho ugh I wa s a S o c i al i s t symp athi z e r , the only e xp e r ie n c e
I h a d w a s r ather mi l d on a day my brother P a ul a n d I wan t e d
P a ul wa s e n ga ged to a gir l who
t o go into t h e inn e r c i ty .
l i ved in the i nn e r c i ty .
We h a d to wa lk b e c a us e t he r e w a s
no pub l ic t ran s po r t at ion o n ac c o unt o f t h e s t r i ke .
The
P a ul t r i e d t o
inne r c ity was c o rdoned o ff by the p o l ice .
t al k t o one o f the o f f i c e r s who s ho ute d , " No , you have t o go bac k ! "
P a ul t r i e d to e xp l a in to the po l ic e man that he wan t e d t o s e e
h i s gir l f r ie nd , b ut h e di dn ' t l i s te n , he s a i d , " Go b a c k ! " And
then a s econd p o l i c e man c a me .
The po l ic e at that t i me wer e
go i n g a ro und w i t h c ar b i ne s , w i t h mo un t e d bayone t s .
H e s ai d ,
" I f you don ' t go b a c k we ' ll s t ick o ur bayon e t s into yo u ! "
So , t h i s w a s V i e nn a dur in g that t i me .
One t i me the r e w a s
shoot ing ve ry c l o s e by a n d e verybody ran for c over into
apa r t ment bui l d i ngs .
B ut o therw i s e I w a s n ' t invo l ve d p e r ­
son a l ly .
That p e r iod l e f t quite an i mpr e s s io n on me ; i t w a s
a very d i f f i c ul t t i me .
O f co ur se , Aus t r i a wa s n eve r a r e a l
demo c racy , the k ind o f demo c r acy t h a t A me r i c a o r F r a n c e wa s .
I t wa s a
I s t i l l reme mbe r the f i r s t t i me we got t o F r anc e .
c o mp l et e ly di f f er e n t f e e l i n g .
Aus tr i a was a lw ay s - - e ven in
7
the so - c a l l e d go o d o ld t ime s , a q uarter p o l i c e s t a t e and
c o r r up t .
I had a j o b dur in g that t ime a s a t e xt i l e de s i gne r .
RB :
Were y o u go i n g t o mus e um s ?
art i s t s ?
D i d yo u have c o n t a c t with
ON :
No , none wha t so e ve r . It m ay s o un d f unny , b ut I w a s n o t
intere s t e d in art a s ide from t h a t c a lendar at m y unc l e ' s
house , o r o n c e in a wh i le l oo k i n g thro ugh an a r t boo k .
Ye s , my f a t h e r too k me to t he mus e um .
Vienna h a d the
I t h ad some very b e a ut i ful
Kun st h i s to r i s c he Muse um .
Rembrandt s wh i c h I en j oy e d later on very muc h .
As a child
I wa s int e r e s te d i n the E gyp t i an s e c t i on mo r e t h an any t h i n g
e l se .
I l i ked the s a rcophagi w i t h t he h i e r o glyph i c s , they
imp re s s e d me s ome how .
An d t hen i t w a s e xp l a i n e d t o me t h a t
the s e wer e b ur i a l c o n t a i ne r s o f mummi e s .
P a in t i n gs l e f t me
r at he r c o l d , though later I d i d en j oy the B r ue ge l s and the
Rembran dt s .
I r emember t he Remb r a n d t s b e c a use the l i gh t in
them wa s so f a s c inat i n g .
There wa s s ome thing my s t e r i o us
abo ut them .
The B r ue ge l s we r e ve ry gay .
Later on I b e c ame
mo r e i n te r e s te d in t he modern s .
I r ec a l l when I we n t f ir s t
t o t he Moderne G a l e r i e a t t he Be lve d e r e i n Vienna - - t he
S c hie l e s and t he K l imt s I f o un d f a s c i n a t i n g .
RB :
They were o ut that e ar l y ?
ON :
Oh ye s , they had s ome S c hi e l e s the r e ,
t han K l imt .
RB :
D i d you go to t he e xpo s i t io n s l i ke the S e c e s s io n ?
ON :
I wa s i n t he S e ce s s ion once .
I wa s in the K un s t l e rhaus
onc e , b ut on ly to attend the s o - c a l l e d G sc hna s fe s t ,
t he
y ea r ly c r a zy get - to ge t he r s by a rt i s t s and p se udo - ar t i s t s a t
F a s c h in g t i me - - Mardi Gr a s .
RB :
D i d y o u v i s i t the c h urche s in V i e nn a ?
ON :
Ye s , e s p e c i a l ly S t . S tephan s , S tephan s k i rche , b ut m a i n ly
to hear mus ic .
I r e c a l l a p e r f o rman c e o f Bach ' s B -Mino r
Ma s s I hea r d in t he Stepha n s kirche , wh i c h wa s unb e l ie vab l e .
I t wa s so muc h mo r e bea ut i ful than i n any o f the c on c e r t
ha l l s .
I f e l t that th i s w a s the w ay I woul d a lway s l ike t o
hear it .
I a l so went frequent ly t o t h e H o f b ur g Kape l le
b e c a use on S unday mo rn i n gs membe r s o f the Phi lharmo n i c
p laye d e i the r a ma s s o r o th e r c hurch mus ic .
I t wa s very
b e a ut i f ul , I r e c a l l .
I wa s i n the Vo t iv-Kirche once , w h i c h
l e f t m e very c o l d for some r e ason .
Mar i a a m Ge s t ade wa s
ve ry b e a ut i f ul , I tho ught .
RB :
At t h i s t ime were y o u aware o f t h e a r c h i t e c t ur e that wa s
be ing b ui lt ?
ON :
Y e s , but I wa s not r e al ly aware o f t he greatne s s o f O t t o
Wa gner , f o r i n s t anc e .
As a mat t e r o f f a c t , I though t t h e
S ch i e l e e ven mo r e s o
8
S t a dtbahn s t a t ion s , wh i c h were d e s igned by h im , we r e a l l
he did .
They were q u i t e d i lap i d at e d f o r a l o n g t ime .
You
c o u l d not r e a l ly s e e wha t t hey we re .
Ado l f Loo s fa s c i n a t e d
I a l so g o t
me a n d l a t e r I w e n t to s o m e o f h i s l e c tur e s .
They we r e very
h i s wr i t ing s w h i c h I e n j o y e d ve ry much .
amu s ing and s ome a l so ve ry b e a ut i f u l .
I a dmi r e d h im bec a u s e
h e touc hed mo r e o r l e s s on e very s ub j ec t i n l i fe .
I l oved
t he o l d arc h i t e c ture in Vie nna very muc h .
Howe ve r , I was
ve ry muc h impr e s s e d by P a r i s , an d I f e l t that P a r i s wa s so
muc h mo r e beaut i fu l .
I w a s imp r e s se d by the wide boul eva r d s
and t h e very s t r a i ght avenue s , t h e s tr ee t s we r e n o t c ro o k e d
a s t hey a r e in V i e nna .
I n V i e nn a you c ou l d on l y s e e s o f a r
and t h e n y our v i ew w a s b l o c k e d b y a n o t h e r bu i l ding .
RB :
You were t a l k ing b e fore about the f a c t that in 1 9 2 8 you had
a j ob .
ON :
Y e s , a s a t e xt i le d e s i gn e r and a l so c al c u l a t o r .
Every t h i ng
had to be done by hand at the t ime .
I p r i de my s e l f in having
invent e d the f ir s t c a l c u l ator bec a u s e I t r i ed to c ombine
things
RB :
S o you invented a sy stem for keep ing t r a c k o f y a rdage s ?
ON :
No , I h a d to f igure out wh at ce rta in fab r i c � w h i c h c on s i s t
o f fifty-:-nine p e r c e n t n a tu r a l s i lk , so much r ayon , so much
c o tton , and t h i s an d that -- how muc h some th in g l i ke t hi s
s ho u l d c o s t .
RB :
S o t h i s wa s a f a c tory you wo rked fo r ?
ON :
I t wa s t he o ff i c e o f the f a c tory .
in C z e c ho s lovak i a .
RB :
What wa s the name o f the comp any , do you r emembe r ?
ON :
The n ame o f the c omp any wa s Fr i t z S ch onwa lder and Company .
They s pe c i al i z e d in ne ckt ie f ab r i c s .
We so l d p r ac t i c a l ly
Tha t , in a way , wa s our down fa l l be­
a l l over the wo r ld .
c a u s e i n 1 9 3 1 o r 1 9 3 2 i t s t ar t e d with the deva l ua t i on o f
S c h onw a l de r l o s t a lot o f money b e c au s e
the E ng l i s h poun d .
they d i d c o n s iderab l e bu s i ne s s in E n g l a n d .
They a l so h a d a
con s ide rab l e Ame r ic an bu s ine s s , and dur ing the Ame r i c an
Depre s s ion p r ac t ic a l ly a l l o r de r s were c a n c e l le d .
We we r e
l e f t with fab r i c s on ly Ame r i c a wo ul d u s e an d nobo dy e l se ,
b e c au s e in Au s t r i a nobo dy wo u l d dare we ar a br i ght r e d nec k ­
t i e w i th b l ue po l ka dot s on i t o r some th ing o f t h a t so r t .
RB :
You we r e de s igning ?
ON :
I wa s j u s t beg inn ing to de s i gn .
I got my j o b when I w a s
n i ne t e e n y e ar s o ld .
Nobo dy b e l i e ved I c o u l d do any t hing .
Then I got mo r e and mo r e j o b s to do , d e s igning , and a l so
Th i s I
mak in g c o lor c ombinat ion s for var ious p at t e rn s .
The f a c to ry i t s e l f wa s
9
l i ke d be s t , e ven t ho ugh they we r e not e xa c t ly wh at w a s
e xpe c te d .
S trange ly enough , some o f them so l d q u i t e we l l ,
and t hat encoura g e d the mana gement to l e t me do mo r e o f
the s e t h i ng s .
I n 1 9 3 3 H i t l e r t o o k ove r i n Germany , and our
Ge rman c u s tome r s c ance l l e d the i r o r de r s b e c au s e Sch onw a l de r
wa s Jewi s h , even t hough mo s t o f t h e peop l e who w o r k e d t h e r e
wer e not .
W e we r e put on the b l a c kl i s t , l i ke a l l Jewi sh
I t wa s at that p o i n t t ha t S c h onwa l d e r de­
b u s ine s s f i rms .
c ide d they had l o s t enough money an d they l iq u i d a t e d t he
The
b u s ine s s c omp l ete l y .
Eve ryone wa s w i t hout a j ob .
V i e nn a o f f ic e c on s i s t e d o n l y of maybe twenty - f ive peop l e ,
but we were not the on l y one s .
Lo s ing a j o b i n V i e nn a a t
And I
tha t t ime me ant t h a t y o u l o s t your j o b comp l e t e ly .
was mar r ie d at the t ime .
RB :
Te l l me abo ut tha t .
ON :
Pe r h a p s in my unh app ine s s about having f l unke d t he mu s ic
ac ademy and having to s t art a j o b , I f e l t , now I ' m e ar n i n g
mone y , I c an mar ry .
I marr i e d a g i r l by the name o f Be rtha
The
S t e inme t z , whom I h a d me t at t he p e r a in V i enn a .
I w a s twenty -two at
mar r i age wa s not good f r om the s t art .
the t ime .
Another r e a son maybe that I mar r i e d w a s tha t a
m a i d whom my p ar e n t s had many y e a r s ago , who wa s a l so a
p a lmre ader in her s p ar e t ime , had r e ad e verybo dy ' s p a lms ,
and she to l d me -- I wa s maybe f i f t e e n o r s i xte e n y e a r s o l d
- - a l l the t h i n g s t ha t wer e g o ing t o happen to me and o n e
w a s t h a t I wa s g o i n g t o mar ry when I wa s twenty - two y e ar s
o ld .
Perhaps I fe l t I c o u l dn ' t d i s appo int her , even though
S o I marr i e d at age twe nty - two , and from
she had long l e f t .
We l l , we s tuc k
t he very beg inning we knew i t w a s a mi s t ak e .
i t out together f o r over two ye ar s , and t hen we s e p ara t e d .
RB :
D i d you go home aga i n ?
ON :
Y e s , I we nt home a f t e r I had lo s t my j o b .
Be fo r e then we
had an apartment i n the H o c hha u s .
I t wa s r ight n e xt t o the
Loo s Haus on the Micha e l e r P la t z , in t he H e r r e n ga s se , and
B ut I
it wa s quite an e xpe n s i ve propo s it i on for newlywe d s .
f e lt that we wou l d e at le s s and spend mor e o n h ab i t at ion .
Be rtha w a s a mo d i s te and wo rked at h ome and so s he remained
in the a p artment when I we n t back t o my p ar e n t s a f te r I ' d
lo s t my j o b .
Dur ing t he summer o f 1 9 3 3 I met Gertrud.
I me t h e r in the
Hoc hhau s b e c a u s e the book s hop there , wh i c h w e frequen t e d
q u i t e o ften , be longed to Gertrud ' s
brothe r , Han s Amon .
One
day wh i le I w a s in the bo ok s hop s h e c ame in to see her
I w a s int roduc e d t o her by Re l l a , Han s ' s wi fe ,
brothe r .
I c ame in maybe o n c e
whom I ' d known through the book shop .
o r t w i c e a we e k , u sua l ly j u s t to browse and , o n o c c a s io n ,
a l so to buy .
Han s had a f a s c i n at ing c o l l e c t io n o f art b o o k s
a n d mo s t o f them w e r e q u i t e i n e xpe n s ive .
I n t ime w e bec ame
f r i e nd s , an d so it w a s o n ly natu r a l that when h i s s i s t e r c ame
10
one d ay we were introdu c e d .
S t r a ng e l y enough , Re l l a , h i s
w i fe , had l ong b e f o r e then s a i d , " Oh , one day y ou ' l l h ave
to mee t Han s's s i s te r , Trude , " and I s ai d , "No t hank y o u ,
I ' m not inte r e s t e d . "
I d idn ' t p ar t i c u l a r l y c a r e for Han s ,
Trude ' s brothe r .
I a dmire d h im in s ome way , but I a l s o
d i s l i ke d h i m i n many way s .
Howe ve r , h i s w i fe wa s ve ry
p le a s an t and they h ad a good r e l a t ion s h ip , but when she
s a i d I have to mee t Trude , I s a id , " No , thank y o u , I'm not
int e r e s te d in Han s ' s s i s t e r . "
In a d d i t i o n , I had an ave r ­
s ion t o the name " Tr ude . " A l l t he " Tr u de s " I'd known be f o r e
h a d some t hing about them I d i dn ' t l ike .
A p l a in c a� o f p r e ­
j udic e !
Howeve r , i t a l l happe n e d s o fa s t .
Wh en I w a s intro ­
duc e d to h e r - - I had a lr e ady n o t ic e d h e r a minute b e f o r e when
she c ame into the s hop , and w a s s truck by h e r app e a ran c e - I f o r go t that she wa s Han s's s i s t e r and that h e r n ame wa s
I t wa s a very brie f encounter and mo re o r l e s s the
Trude .
I w a s s t i l l l e ga l l y marr i e d at the t ime , and I
end o f i t .
s t i l l l i ve d in the H o c hhau s .
To comp l i c at e mat ter s , i t t urned out that Han s knew B e r tha ' s
- - my f i r s t w i fe's - - c o u s i n and he r h u s band who w a s one o f
I t w a s dur ing t he s ummer o f 1 9 3 3 when
h i s o ld f r i e n d s .
Bertha wa s on vac a t ion and I s t ay e d in V ie nn a .
I wa s p r a c ­
t i c i n g the vio l in t ha t a fte rnoon .
Han s and I had a d ate to
vi s i t B er tha ' s c o u s in and h e r hu s band for the e ve n ing an d ,
among other thing s - - don ' t l augh now - - to p la y poker .
Around f i ve o ' c l o c k the doorbe l l r an g .
I t w a s Han s , and
s t r an g e ly enough Trude wa s w i t h h im .
Having b e e n p r a c t ic ing
I opened the doo r , vio l in i n hand , and he and Trude c ame in
bec a u s e he w an t e d to show h e r a n a p artment in the Hoch hau s .
Obv io u s ly , I wa s t he o n l y p e r son l i ving in t he Hochhaus h e
Trude behave d
kne w , and he wan t e d to s h o w h e r our apartment .
very arroga nt ly , she looked at e verything and among other
thing s she l ooke d at a c e rami c va s e wh i c h wa s s t an d in g on a
bookc a s e and s aid to H a n s , " Wo u l d you l i ke me t o make you
some th ing l i ke t hi s ?
I could do i t . "
That w a s a l l .
The Amo n s had a h o u s e in the H i n t e r bruh l , wh i c h wa s about
f i fteen mi l e s from Vienna i n the c oun t ry .
Trude and Han s
H a n s a s ke d , " We l l ,
frequent ly we n t there for the we e kend .
a re you g o i n g t o be in the H in t e r bruh l th i s we e ken d ? "
And
she s ai d , " No , p r o ba bl y not , b e c a u s e I intend t o go swimming
in the Danub e on S unday .
But i f it r a in s , I ' l l c ome t o t h e
H in t e r bruh l . " A f t e r maybe f i f teen o r twen ty minut e s Trude
s a i d she had an appointmen t or a date o r some th ing , and she
said goo dbye t o u s .
H a n s and I s t ay e d at the apa rtment f o r
a l i t t le whi l e an d t hen we went to t h e R i e de l s fo r our p o ke r
game .
I w a s very s t r i c ken b y Trude .
Oh , I w i s h e d i t wou l d
r a in o n Sunday , i n wh i c h c a s e I wou l d g o t o the H i n t erbruh l .
Han s and Re l l a had o ften a s ked me to c ome to t h e i r p ar e n t s '
hou s e .
I had never acc epted t he i r invitation b e f o r e , but i n
t h i s c a s e I wou l d g o t o the H i n t e r brlih l , j u s t t o me e t Trude .
I w i s hed i t wou l d r a in on S unday .
S aturday wa s very , ve ry hot ,
11
I recal l .
Howeve r , i t b e c ame c lo udy and I b e l i e ve during
the n ight it s t ar t e d t o rain and on S un day , as happened
q ui t e frequent ly on weeken d s , i t r ai n e d .
I wa s ve ry h appy .
I wa s a l l by my s e l f , I c o u l d do whatever I wanted .
So I
wen t to the S u dbahnho f , got a t ic k e t , wen t t o H in t e r br uh l .
I found t h e hou s e whi c h wa s not too d i ff i c u l t s i nc e it h ad
bee n de s c r ib e d to me i n de t ai l be fore .
Han s and Re l l a we r e
ve ry s urpr i s e d to s e e me .
They had invited m e s o o ften and
I wou l d not come , and t h i s t ime whe n t hey d idn ' t invite me ,
I wou l d appe a r and in th i s r a i n !
O f cour s e , Trude ' s p ar en t s
we r e t he r e too , b e s i d e s Han s and Re l l a w i th the i r daught e r ,
S en t a , who at that t ime w a s e i ght y e a r s o l d .
Trude w a s
nowh e r e t o b e s e e n .
F i n a l l y I a s ke d , " D idn ' t Trude come ? "
And t he y s a id , " Oh ye s , s he ' s h e r e .
S he ' s p r o ba b l y sound
I t wa s
a s l e e p , s he h a s n ' t c ome down to br e ak f a s t y et . "
noont ime a l r e a dy o r some t h i n g l i ke tha t .
O f c o ur s e , i t w a s
I t wa s
a r a i ny day , i t w a s d i smal , t hough qui te w arm .
l i t t l e S e n t a who mu s t have been s us p i c i o u s o f s ome t h ing who
L o n g a f t e rw a r d s
f i n a l l y went up s t ai r s and awakene d Trud e .
I hea r d that s he s ai d to S e n t a , " We l l , he didn ' t c ome t o
s e e me , he c ame to s e e Han s a n d Re l l a .
Th i s i s none o f my
busine s s . "
Nonethe le s s , she f in a l l y c ame down and we s p e n t a p le a s an t
a f ternoon on t h e op en p o r c h wh i c h l ooked out on the garden .
I t wa s s t i l l r a i n ing so none o f u s wou l d g o ou t .
A ft e r a
wh i le Han s an d Re l l a and I c o n t inued our poker g ame , and
Trude got very b o r e d and I s aid to h e r , " Le t me t e ach you
how to p l ay po ker . "
I f t h e r e w a s any t hing she wa s l e s s
i nte r e s te d in , i t w a s poker , but I in s i s t e d .
I s ai d , " Yo u
n e v e r kno w , i t may c ome in handy o n e day , you may n e e d i t . "
S o very unwi l l ingly she s at down at the t ab l e w i th u s an d
the four o f u s p l ay e d po ker .
She wa s a ve ry dumb poker
p laye r .
Even af t e r she c omprehended the game , s he cou ldn ' t
p lay i t bec au s e she c o u l dn ' t p lay any c a r d game .
A s to my­
After I
s e l f , pok e r wa s t he on l y c a r d g ame I ever p laye d .
lo s t enough money I q u i t even t h at .
RB :
At t h i s t ime you were n o t emp loy e d ?
ON :
No , I h ad j u s t l o s t my j o b one mon th b e fore .
I t w a s ve ry
n ic e for some r e a s o n s , though d i smal for o t he r s .
In the
eve n i n g a f t e r we had dinn e r , Trude and I went ba c k to
I t w a s a ve ry love ly r i de from the
Vi enn a t o g e the r .
H in t e r br u h l at that t ime .
There w a s an ant iquat e d e l e c tr i c
r ai lway f r om t h e H i n t e r br u h l to Mod l i ng , about a d i s t an c e
o f f o u r m i le s .
T h e c ar s w e r e t iny and had o p e n p la t f o rm s .
And the l an d s c ape wa s int imate some t ime s .
The t r ac k s some ­
t ime s went through a for e s t whe r e the t r e e s we r e l i t e r a l ly
w i t h i n r e aching di s t an c e on both s ide s , and love ly r o c k
f ormat ion s iU some area s .
T h e l a s t stop w a s the r a i l ro a d
s t at ion in Mo d l ing whe r e w e t r an s ferred to t h e t r a i n f o r
I n Vienna we took the s t re e tc ar to whe reve r we
V i e nn a .
wan ted to go .
I t was q u i te an intere s t ing , va r ie d t r ip ,
12
wh ich t o o k a nywh e r e f rom o n e an d a h a l f t o two an d a ha l f
hour s , depen di n g o n the conne c t io n s you c o u l d m ake .
Trude an d I ro de b a c k to V ie nn a together - - i t wa s the f ir s t
t ime w e were alone , a n d t he f ir s t t ime w e c ou l d t a l k in
p r ivat e .
She t o l d me that she h a d j u s t s t ar t e d to g e t i n t e r ­
e s t e d in c l ay an d she w a s m a k i n g c e ramic s .
S he s e eme d t o b e
very h o t o n t h e s u b j e c t .
When I met h e r she h a d a j o b a s a
s e c r e t ary wh ich s he h a d for t he p a s t s i x o r s e ve n y e ar s .
She wa s e xt reme ly unhappy about that j o b .
S he wan t e d to do
some t hing w i t h h e r h a n ds .
She wan t e d t o dr aw , s he w ante d
to p aint , but she f e l t t hat she di dn ' t have enough t a l e n t .
S o when a f r ie n d s ugg e s te d to h e r to try c l ay , s he b e c ame
She t hought , we l l , I c an a lway s make a
very inter e s te d .
f r u i t bow l o r an asht ray , an d i t c an b e u s e d , you don ' t have
to be an art i s t to do that .
J u s t a f ew wee ks be f o r e s he h a d c ome b ac k f r om Ru s s i a wher e
she v i s i t e d a n o l d boy f r i e n d o f her s who w a s a doc to r an d
h a d gone the r e t o wo r k .
He h a d w r i t t e n s o muc h about wha t
Ru s s i a w a s l i ke , what h i s e xpe r ie nc e s were , that s h e b e c ame
inte re s t e d an d went the r e .
S he r et urne d ve ry di s i l lu s io n e d .
The
I shou l d me n t i o n she went there w i th h e r then boy f r ie nd .
two had a c omp l e t e phy s ic a l a n d ment al sp l i t -up wh i l e in
Ru s s i a , w i t h t he r e s u l t that upon the i r r e turn they both
went di f fe r en t way s .
Rus s i a i t se l f w a s a t r aumat ic e xp e r i ­
ence f o r Trude b e c a u s e s he s aw - - e ven though a t f ir s t she
wa s not aware o f i t -- t he wo r k i n g s o f t he s e c r e t po l i c e .
When he r doc t o r f r ie n d w a s c a l le d to t he po l i c e to g i ve i n ­
format ion about c e r t ain th ing s t hat happen e d , some t hi ng s he
m ay have s a i d, she b e came awar e , a n d she comp l e t e ly shut up
b e c a u s e s he was af r a i d th at some thing might happen t o h e r
friend.
An d o bvi o u s ly some t hing di d happen , b e c au s e about
ha l f a y e ar a f t e r Tru de h a d r e t u r n e d to V i e nn a , she di d n o t
h e a r from h im any mo r e .
N o r ep l i e s t o any l e t t e r s , noth ing .
Qu ite o bvi o u s ly h e di s appe a r e d .
T ru de b l ame d h er se l f b e c a u s e
s h e r ec a l l e d that s h e w a s approache d by some bo dy who spo ke
f a ir ly g o o d German a n d a s ke d her about h e r impr e s s ion s o f
Ru s s i a , a n d s he h a d j u s t ob s erve d some bo dy f a l l ing o f f an
ove r c r ow de d s t r e e t c a r onto the s tr ee t , and l y ing there an d
nobo dy p ay ing any attent ion .
I t wa s a t e r r ibl e shoc k t o h e r ,
It
a n d she wa s very o p e n an d o bvious ly rema r ke d about i t .
c o ul d ve ry we l l b e that h e r rema r k s c o n t r ibute d t o h e r f r ie n d ' s
demi s e .
Every thing s e eme d ve ry di sma l t o Trude .
She h a d j u s t r eturne d
t o Au s tr i a .
She ha d b a d exper i e nc e s w i th h e r b oy f r i e n d , a n d
s h e t r i e d t o forget i t a l l w i th c l ay .
A n d though I wa s very
I
inte re s t e d in her , I di dn ' t want t o a s k her for a da t e .
wa s s t i l l l ega l ly m ar r i e d an d fe l t that I s ho u l dn ' t a s k h e r .
But I di d a s k her t o b r ing me a lump o f c lay , I wo ul d l ike
to t ry i t .
It wa s a c a lc u l ate d reque s t , an d she f e l l for it
an d thus I saw h e r a c o up l e o f day s l ater when she brought
me the c l ay .
13
RB :
Wha t k i n d o f a l ump o f c l ay , what k i n d o f c l ay ?
ON :
Te r r a c o t t a c l ay , c l ay t h at c a n b e mo l de d o r thrown an d
f i r e d , a n d you c an do whatever you l i ke t o do w i th i t .
You c an ' t r u i n c l ay a s long a s you don ' t f i re i t b e c a u s e
y o u c a n a lway s s o ak i t i n wat e r an d ma ke i t u s ab l e a g a i n .
RB :
I s th i s s o l d comme r c i al ly in V i e nn a ?
ON :
I don ' t know , but Trude got i t at t he s o - c a l l e d " s c ho o l "
she at ten de d .
The man w a s a p o t te r , b ut p e r ha p s n o t ve ry
He w a s q u i t e t al ente d , but he
succ e s s fu l in h i s bu s i ne s s .
taught , an d h e ha d al l k i n ds o f s t u de nt s , some very youn g ,
some we r e m i ddl e - ag e d p e op l e who w ante d to do some t h ing
w i th t h e i r h a n ds , an d some e l der ly l a di e s .
Two young men
wer e a l so there who di d some very inte r e s t ing wo r k a f t e r
g e t t i n g i n s t ruc t i o n s from Mr . I s kra .
Ge r t r u d went the r e once a we e k , on S a t ur day s a f t e r t h e
o f f ic e c lo s e d , she we nt s t r a i ght o u t t h e r e t o s pe n d the
a f te rnoon w i th Fran z I skra .
S o a f te r I a s ke d Ge rtrud t o
She a l so kept some c l ay a t
b r i n g m e s ome c lay , s he di d .
home wher e she di d some mo de l l i ng .
I took the c l ay h ome
w i t h me an d s t ar t e d by my se l f , w i thout any i n s t r uc t io n .
I
s t art e d by f e e l ing i t at f ir s t an d in the proc e s s c re at e d
two " ma s t e r p i e c e s . "
One w a s a ma s k o f Hub e rm an , B ron i s lav
Hub e rman , who w a s my mo s t favo r i t e vio l i n i s t at the t ime .
He h a d a very pronoun c e d f a c e , an d a ft e r I f i n i s he d, any­
bo dy who ha d ever s e e n Huberm an c o u l d r e c o gn i z e h im , even
The s e c o n d
though it was aby sma l as a p i e c e o f s c u lpture .
p i e c e w a s the f igure o f a n unemp loye d , l e an ing a ga i n s t
someth ing an d aimle s s ly l o o k i ng out , probab ly a k in d o f s e l f ­
O f c o u r s e , th i s g ave me s ome r e ason to c a l l
p o r t ra i t .
I wou l d
Gertrud an d t e l l h e r that I have don e some t h i ng .
l i ke her t o s e e wha t I di d wi th the c l ay she b rought me .
She looked at the two
I t was a game an d s he f e l l for i t .
p ie c e s an d rema r ke d, " That ' s not so b a d .
As a mat t e r o f
" Okay ,
fa c t , I wou l d l i ke t o show them to my te ache r . "
i f you show them to your t e ac he r , you have to t e l l me wha t
he s a i d about them , " wh ich s h e promi s e d t o do .
An d o b­
viou s ly Mr . I s kra , sme l l in g anothe r r at , o r r a t h e r a n o t h e r
sucker , s a i d to her , " That ' s ve ry intere s t i ng .
He r e a l ly
sho u l d s t u dy some .
I t ' s q u i t e intere s t i ng wha t h e di d . "
G e r t r u d to l d me ve r ba t im wha t he s a i d , name ly t ha t I s h ou l d
s t u dy , and s in c e she studi e d with I s kra , i t wa s o n ly n a t u r a l
t h a t I shou l d s tu dy w i t h h im a l so .
I t ho ught i f h e ' s g o o d
S o I s ai d ,
fo r h e r , he ' s proba b ly g o o d enough f o r me , too .
" S ince I have noth ing e l se t o do , next t ime you g o t o I s kra ,
I ' l l go with you , an d I ' l l s t art s tu dy i ng w i th h im . "
That w a s the b e g inn ing .
I a dmit I w a s much le s s i nt e r e s t e d
i n c lay a t t h e t ime t han I w a s i n Ge r t r u �
I n t ime , o f
c o ur se , I bec ame inter e s t e d in c lay a l so , very muc h s o , b e ­
c au s e c l ay i s a f a s c i na t ing m e diu m .
14
RB :
Why ?
ON :
B e c au se i t ' s very y ie l d i ng , you s e e imme d i at e ly what y o u
do , a n d i f i t ' s not r i g ht y o u c an c h a n g e i t e a s i l y , o r
s mas h i t al together and s t art a l l ove r ag a i n w i th the s ame
With penc i l and p ape r , or p a i nt , o r pen and pape r ,
c l ay .
you have to buy paper , y o u have to get new p e n c i l s a g a i n ,
o r p a i nt , o r ink , you c an ' t do anything i f i t doe s n o t t urn
out r i ght .
You c an burn i t , b ut t hen i t ' s gon e .
C l ay , o n
the o t h e r hand , you c a n a lw ay s u s e o ve r and o ve r ag a i n , you
That wa s the f i r s t
c an ' t r e a l l y ruin it unt i l you f ir e i t .
t h in g I thought w a s very f a sc inat ing .
Be s ide s , i t ' s a
You be come
wonde r ful fe e l ing to put your han d s into c l ay .
aware o f i t s p l a s t i c ity immed i at e ly .
I had n e ve r touched
c l ay be f o r e .
Tru e , as a c h i l d I h a d p l ay e d w i th s an d and
I t w a s a b i t l ik e c l ay , but t h i s
s ome l o am , I remembe r .
c lay wa s d i f f e rent .
Ve ry re s pon s i ve t o what you d i d to i t .
I r emember the f ir s t a f t e rnoon I wen t with Ge r t r ud t o t he
I s kra wo r k s hop , i t was q u i te fa s c inat ing .
I t wa s l o c a t e d
in t h e b a s ement o f an o l d bui l ding , t h e windows wer e above
eye l e ve l , they we r e ve ry na r r ow , and l ooked out on the
s tr e e t , and I r emembe r a l l y o u cou l d see when p e o p l e wa l k e d
by w e r e t he ir l eg s .
You c ou l d s e e a d o g when he wa l k e d by ,
The who l e a tmo s p h e r e
but you c ou l dn ' t s e e a who l e p e r s on .
wa s inte r e s t ing and ve ry d i f f erent from what I had e ve r
expe r i en c e d be f or e ; a r e a l wo r k s hop wher e peop l e we r e very
ab sorbed w i th wha t t hey we r e do ing , goo d , bad or i n d i f f erent .
There i s a l so a c e r t a in sme l l t o dry ing c l ay , and e sp e c i a l l y
t o c l ay b e i ng f i re d .
T h e k i l n w a s be ing f i red that day and
gave o f f t ha t part i cu l ar s me l l .
( I t ' s p r o bab l y the c hemi­
c a l ly bound wate r wh i c h e vapo r ate s from the c l ay dur in g t he
f ir ing t h a t p e rme ate s e ve ry th i n g . )
And then there we r e
p ie c e s o f work i n a l l s t age s , f rom the i r so f t b e ginn i ng t o
the h a r d dry , and from the ha l f g l a z ed to the v e r y f i n i shed .
Fr ank l y , unt i l then I had never l o o ked at a c e ram ic in any
I never l i ke d c e r amic s , a t l e a s t
other way but with de t e s t .
I mu s t adm i t tha t I h adn ' t s e e n
the one s t ha t I h a d s e e n .
any Chine s e c e r ami c s .
I ' d n e v e r s e e n any o f the S un g p ie c e s
I ' d n eve r s e e n any o f the c o n t empo r a ry
at the mu s eum .
Swed i s h c e ramic s in any o f t he t rave l i ng exh i b i t ion s .
They
were muc h better t han anything you wou l d see i n Vienna in
va r io u s s hop s .
The shop s c ar r i e d f igur ine s , b r i gh t l y g l a z e d
w i th runn ing g la ze s , f l owe r c o n t ainer s , f r u i t bowl s , mo s t
I r emember we r e ­
o f them o rn amented , a n d I det e s ted them .
Tha t p ie c e ,
c e ived o n e a s a pre s e nt when I w a s f ir s t marr i e d .
I s t i l l r e c al l , w a s a b i t b e t t e r than t he r e s t .
I t w a s one
o f the Ho f fman con s truc t ion s , b la c k and red .
It was the one
that a t t r a c t e d G e r t r ud ' s
attent ion the f i r s t t ime s he c ame
to vi s it and arrogant ly a sk e d h e r brothe r , whether he w o u l d
S h e con f e s s e d to me a f t e r ­
l i ke h e r to m ake a p i e c e l i ke i t .
I wa s f a s c i n a t e d
war d s t h a t s he h a d no ide a h o w to d o i t .
b y m y f i r s t v i s i t to t h e I s kra wor kshop t o s e e him demo n ­
s t r ate a t the potter ' s whee l .
H e w a s a m arve l o u s c r a f t sman ,
15
though you c ou l d very we l l di s ag r e e w i th hi s c o n c e p t o f
form .
He w a s unb e l i e vab ly s ki l l fu l l an d ve ry , ve ry q u i c k .
I t ' s a f a s c i n at i n g e xper ience to s e e a l ump o f c l ay thrown
on the r o ta t i ng whe e l an d a l l o f a s u dden it " grow s " i nto
s hape by two han ds man ip u l a t ing it .
An d then l at e r you a s k
your s e l f - - why do p eo p l e m ake s uc h awf u l s t uf f out o f such
won de r fu l mate r i a l ?
Thi s w a s t he beg inn ing .
G e r t r u d went t o I s kr a once a we ek
an d I , s i nc e I had no j o b , got a spec i al r a t e f rom Mr . I s kr a
for a " f u l l cour s e . "
I co u l d come any t ime I w ante d t o
I t w a s an
s ix time s a we e k - - an d wor k in h i s wor kshop .
i nt e r e s t ing exp e r ie n c e i n s o far as I l e a rne d how to kne ad
c l ay .
I l ea rn e d how to throw on the wh e e l , an d I e ven
l e arne d how to app l y g l a ze .
Howe ve r , i f I had ever app l i e d
the g l a z e t h e way I l e a rne d f rom I s kr a , I p robab l y wou l d
He u s e d
have n e ve r g l a z e d mor e than t hre e po t s i n my l i fe .
a very smal l bru s h an d s t ipp l e d i t on , a n d i n o r de r t o g l a z e
a me dium s i ze d pot , i t wo u l d have t ak en three hour s .
An e x ­
treme ly te di o u s an d ine f f ic i e n t p r o c e s s .
H e s a i d, " We l l ,
you c an a l so dip your po t s i f yo u m ak e a hun dre d p ie c e s with
the s ame g l a z e , o r you c an po u r the g l a z e over them .
He
demon s t r a t e d an d it w a s muc h f a s t e r , but who want e d to make
a hun dr e d p ie c e s ?
B e s i de s , the g l a z e s h e u s e d were qu i te
e xp e n s i ve bec au s e t hey we re man u f ac tu r e d g l a ze s that he
bought at a g l a z e f a c tory .
-­
Nonethe l e s s I went there p r ac t i ca l ly e ve ry day , an d on S a tur ­
day s I ha d Trude ' s c ompany .
Howe ve r , a ft e r a whi l e I be gan
having do ub t s abo u t I s kra .
I w a s f a s c i na t e d by the p r o c e s s ,
l i ke everybo dy who g e t s to e xp e r ie n c e i t .
I t i s f a s c i nati ng
to s ee a g l a ze -- a powde ry sub s t ance m i xe d w i th wat e r - ­
The wat e r i s a b s o r be d a n d the p owdery
app l i e d to a pot .
subs t an c e rema i n s on the pot .
An d then the pot i s f ir e d .
When you app ly the g l a z e i t may l oo k p i nk o r grey o r b lu i s h ,
an d when you tak e i t out o f the ki ln a ft e r t he f ir ing i t i s
gr een o r r e d o r b l ac k .
S o one day , s i nc e I ' d neve r go t t e n
an e xp l anat ion what a g l a z e c on s i s t s o f , I a s ke d Mr . I s kr a ,
" Ve ry s imp ly , t e l l me , Mr . I s kr a , when I app ly t h i s g l a z e i t
I t i s f a sc i n a t ing ,
i s p i nk a n d a ft e r the f ir ing i t ' s green .
but how c ome ? What happen s ?
Wha t i s i t ? "
He s a i d, " I t ' s
an i n tere s t i ng que s t ion you a s k .
I t ' s one o f the m i r ac l e s
o f c e rami c s . "
We l l , I f e l t i t w a s n ' t q u i t e the an swe r that
I e xp ec t e d , a n d a ft e r a f ew mo re such an swe r s I s a i d to
Ge rtrud;
" You know , I thi nk we ' ve l earned a l l we c an l ea rn .
We c a n s ave o u r s e l ve s a l o t o f money - - you pay Mr . I s kr a
We ' d
so mu ch every mon th , I p ay him so muc h e ve ry mon th .
go to the c o f f e e hou se at l e a s t four o r f ive t ime s a we e k
I m a de
j u st t o be togethe r a n d chat , wh i c h co s t s s o muc h . "
" We cou l d rent a
a comp l et e c a l c u l a t ion o f our e xp en s e s .
s t u di o an d be to gether wheneve r we want t o an d do a l l the
wo r k we are do i ng now at Mr . I skra ' s an d c o n t i nue f rom t h e r e . "
The re was no que s t ion in my mind that my c a l cu l a t ion s we r e
c o rrec t .
Ge rtru d agre e d a n d w e lo o ke d for a s t u di o .
16
How do e s o n e l o o k for a s t u dio ?
We put an ad i n t he p a p e r
an d I r ec a l l t he a d r e ad " Art i s t ' s s tu dio , o r ve ry l ight
wo r k shop wan t e d in th i s an d th i s di s t r i c t . "
RB :
Whi c h di s t r i c t ?
ON :
In the s e venth , s i xth o r f i fth di s t r ic t .
G e r t r u d l ive d in
( I don ' t know i f
the s e venth di s t r ic t , in the Z i e g l e r ga s se
you know Vi enna enoug h ) - - a s i de s t re e t o f f the Mar i ah i l f e r ­
s t r a s se .
We l l , t h e Mar i ah i l f e r s t ra s se run s e as t -we s t from
the Ring , that me an s from the mu s eum to S c h 8nbrunn .
I l i ve d
about f ive minute s wa lk ing di s t ance from the Mar i ah i l f e r ­
s t r a s s e i n a s t r e e t run n i ng p a ra l l e l t o i t , c a l l e d S c hm a l z ­
ho f ga s se .
I l i ve d le s s than two -t e n th s o f a mi l e s o u t h o f
t he Mar i ah i l f e r s t r a s s e .
Ge rtrud l i ve d abo ut two -te nth o f
a mi l e n o r t h o f the Ma r i ah i l fe r s t r a s se , in t he Z i e g l e r ga s s e .
The o f f ic e whe r e she wo r ke d w a s a l s o in the S c hmal z ho fg a s se ,
about one m inute w a l k ing di s t ance a c ro s s t he s tr e e t whe r e
I l i ve d .
We wante d a s tu dio c l o s e t o her o f f ic e , o r c l o se
to h e r home , so she wou l dn ' t lo s e too muc h t ime tr ave l ing .
We go t r ep l i e s to our a d f rom a ll over town , s ome q u i t e f a r
away .
The c lo s e r one s w e look e d a t an d mo s t wer e di s m a l ,
dark b a s emen t wo r k shop s , a n d dur ing a l l thi s t ime wh i le we
se arche d , wh i l e we r an the a d i n the pape r , there wa s a s i gn
on the b u i l ding di rec t ly a c ro s s from where I l i ve d , " S tu dio
for rent . " Not only w a s i t acro s s from where I l i ve d , it
I s a w the
w a s two bui l ding s from whe re Ger t r u d wo rke d .
s ign , she mu s t h ave seen i t too .
It never o c c ur r e d to u s
t o go an d l ook .
F ina l ly one a f t e rnoon , on a S atur day a f te r ­
noon , when we u s e d t o g o t o t he P h i l ha rmo n i c c o nc e r t s in the
Mu s i kvere in s aa l , my p arent s h ad invi t e d us for supper a ft e r
the c o n ce r t .
S ince i t w a s s t i l l e a r ly a n d t h e s ign wa s s t i l l
the r e , we thought , " Re a l ly , we have s t i l l a n hour b e f o r e
s uppe r , why don ' t w e g o a n d l ook a t t h a t s t u dio . " W e we r e
bo th sure i t wou l dn ' t b e any t h i ng , b ut we might j u s t a s we l l
So we r ang the b e l l a t the e l evato r , an d the
look at i t .
j an i tor who w a s a l so the super i n t e n dent o f the b u i l di n g , a
I don ' t know
very love ly young woman , c ame to the doo r .
whe the r y o u a r e f ami l i ar w i th V i e nne se j an i tor s .
A s a rule
they we r e o l d, dec r e p i t , qu ite un f r i en dly mo s t o f t h e t ime ,
but t h i s was a very love ly young woman .
We a s ke d whethe r
we c o ul d by any chance s ee the s t u di o t hat w a s for r e n t .
" Ye s , o f cour s e , " she s a i d, " le t me get the key , " a n d she
got the key an d then s he to o k us up in t he e le va to r .
Ye s ,
t h i s w a s the only bui l di ng in t he who l e s t r e e t that h a d an
e l eva t o r , a n d we went up to the f i fth f l oo r - - it probably
wou l d be the s i xth f loor by Ame r i c an s t an da r ds - - an d she
open e d the doo r .
The re w a s the mo s t be au t i fu l s t u dio y o u
can imag ine , bathe d in l i ght .
I t ha d a who l e r ow o f w i n ­
dow s fac ing north a n d a l so a s ky l i ght a b o u t h al f the s i z e
o f the room .
I t w a s j u s t marve l ou s .
I t w a s a wint ry day ,
c o l d o ut s i de , but t he r e w a s c e n t r a l he at a n d i t fe l t w o n de r ­
The s tu dio w a s comp le t e ly emp ty an d i t w a s
fu l t o enter .
f a i r ly l a rge .
There w a s a smal l room a dj o i ning wi t h a
17
s to r a g e a r e a , an d an e i ght - fo o t high wa l l p a rt i t io n i n g an
a r e a t ha t c ou l d be u s e d for l iving q uar t e r s .
The r e was no
b a t h room , there wa s no runn ing wate r .
The run n in g wat e r
wa s out o n t h e c o r r i do r a n d t he bathroom ( ac tua l ly j us t a
to i le t ) wa s ac ro s s the h al l .
I t w a s p art o f t h e l aun dry
uti l i t ie s f o r the who l e bu i l ding , but t hat di dn ' t mat t e r
at a l l .
From t he p ar t i t ion e d area y o u c o u l d l o ok out
thr o ugh a n a rrow w i n do w towards the we s t -- a c t u a l l y , it
wa s s o uthwe s t - - and o n a c le a r day you c ou l d s e e the
S chneebe r g , a snow- c o ve r e d moun t a i n about f i fty mi le s from
Vienna .
We a s ke d how muc h the rent w a s a n d s he s ai d, " I b e l i eve i t
i s s e ve n ty s c h i l l in g s , b ut y o u know i t h a s b e e n vacant for
quite s o me t ime -- why don ' t y o u ta lk t o Mr . Sp i t z e r , he
He i sn ' t t h e r e on
i s the owner of t he b u i l di n g , on Mon day .
Why don ' t y o u t a lk to him?
Mayb e y o u c an have
the we e ke n d .
it for l e s s . "
Or i g ina l ly , we f i gu r e d f i fty s c hi l l in g s wou l d
be the maximum we c ou l d a f f o r d f o r r en t , but when we s aw
We
t h i s we t hought s e venty s c h i l l in g s wou l d b e a b a r g a i n .
c ou l d h a r dl y wa i t unt i l Mon day , when I we n t t o s e e Mr . Sp i t ze r .
A dj o in in g t he apa rtme n t bui l ding wa s the h a t f a c t o ry
Mr . Sp i t ze r own e d .
I t wa s mo r e o r l e s s t h e s ame bu i l di ng ,
but in a di f fe r e n t win g .
I went to s e e h i m in h i s o f f i c e
an d s a i d , " We a r e int e r e s t e d in rent i n g t h e s t u dio , " a n d he
a s ke d , "Are you an a rt i s t ? " an d I di dn ' t q u i te know how t o
an s we r , b e c a u s e I h a d not p r o duce d anyth ing so f a r .
I said,
" We l l , ye s , bo t h my g i r l f r i e n d a n d I a r e b ecoming a r t i s t s . "
I a s ke d, " How muc h i s the r e nt ? "
" I t ' s s e ve nty s c h i l l ing s ,
p l u s the he a t . "
I s a i d, " Se venty s ch i l l in g s !
That ' s a lot
An d imme di at e l y he a sk e d, " Ar e y o u Jew i s h? " and
of money ! "
I t hought , f o r Go d ' s s a ke , now I won ' t b e able to g e t i t at
all .
It wa s a f am i l i ar q ue s t ion dur i n g the p r e -N a z i p e r io d
in Au s t r i a .
I s a i d , " Ye s . "
He s a i d , " Al l r i ght , f i f t y - f ive . "
You know , some t ime s I ' m t e r r ibly dumb .
I shou l d h ave k no wn
that with a n ame l ike S p i t ze r he m ay b e Jew i s h , but h e di dn ' t
l o o k i t an d i t di dn ' t o c c u r to me .
Not o n l y wa s he Jewi s h ,
but h e w a s a l so a Z io n i s t , a s I l a t e r l e arn e d .
I t hank e d h im
an d we r e n t e d i t on the s po t , that i s , I r e n t e d i t bec a u s e
The r e i s
Ge r t r u d wa s a t wo r k when I t a lke d t o Mr . S p i t z e r .
some t hing I s ho u l d have men t io n e d b e f o re :
when Ge r t r u d b e­
c ame mo r e inte r e s t e d in c l ay , s he o r de r e d a p o t t e r ' s whee l
f rom Mr . I skra .
He ha d s e ve r a l bu i lt a t t he t ime an d G e r t r u d
c l a ime d s he p ai d f o r a l l o f them whe n s he g o t her s .
Mr.
I s kr a
I l i ke d h im ve ry much a s a
wa s a n inter e s t ing c ha r a c te r .
p e r son , an d a l so a s an a r t i s t , though h e w a s de f in i te ly not
my s ty l e .
But he w a s a ve ry l ov i n g an d love ly m an , c om ­
p l et e ly imp r ac t i c a l , an d a lway s out o f mone y , a n d a lway s
a sk i n g s ome bo dy who j u s t happen e d to b e n e a rby , " Oh , do y o u
have ten s c h i l l ing s ?
I have to m ake change , c an y o u l e n d
m e t e n s c h i l l in g s ? "
An d the n h e c ame back , " You know , I
don ' t have any c hange now , but you can f i re i t o ff , " wh i c h
meant you c ou l d f i re a f e w t hing s in h i s ki ln i n s t e a d o f
h i m p ay i ng you back .
An d s o when Gertru d o r de r e d h e r whe e l
18
s he p a i d for the three that he o r de r e d .
One day s he c o ­
s igne d a note f o r Mr . I s kr a , an d t hen when i t c ame due ,
I s kra c o u l dn ' t p ay , an d they c ame to h e r an d she a s k e d a
f r ie n d o f our s who wa s a l awye r wha t s h e s ho u l d do now .
I n h i s de l i ght f u l V i enne s e c harm h e s a i d , " You dumb i dio t ,
why di dn ' t y o u a s k me b e f o r e you s i gn e d the note , why do
you c ome to me now ? "
But s t i l l he wro t e Mr . I s kr a a l e t t e r
a n d s t r an g e l y enough , t h e l e t t e r w a s s uc h that Mr . I s kr a
foun d some money s omewh e r e e l se an d Ge rtrud di d n o t have
to p ay the note a f t e r a l l .
The pott e r ' s whe e l she ha d o r de r e d w a s i n s t al l e d i n h e r
paren t s ' bathroom an d t hi s i s whe r e s he di d h e r f i r s t whe e l
throwing .
I t wa s pro bably the o n ly r e de eming f e ature a s f a r
a s her p arent s wer e c on c e rne d , that the wh e e l wa s mo ved from
The n e x t t h i ng wa s t h a t
the i r bath room to o ur s t u di o .
Ge rtrud a pp r o ache d h e r father t o l e n d h e r mon ey f o r the
kiln .
The k i ln wa s ve ry e xpen s i ve ; I think i t c o s t s i xteen
hun dr e d s c h i l l ing s , wh ich wa s -- at l e a s t for us -- an
enormo u s amount of money .
Ger tr u d alway s s a i d , " When you
approach my father to len d you f i ve s c hi l l ing s , h e wo u l d
s ay , ' No . '
Whe n y o u approach h im for a b i g s um , h e wo u l d
t h ink about i t . "
I n t h e matter o f t h e k i ln h e thought about
it an d s a i d , " We l l , I don ' t agree w i th you at a l l .
I don ' t
think anything o f t h i s c e ramic s bu s i ne s s you a r e gett i n g in ­
vo lve d i n .
The r e ' s no future in i t , but I ' ll l en d y o u t he
money anyway . " An d he l e n t h e r the mon ey a n d we bought the
k i ln .
By t h at t ime Ge rtr u d h a d pro duc e d a l l k i n ds o f ob j e c t s , a l l
thrown on the whee l .
I ha d a l so don e a number o f t h i ng s ,
ma i n ly s c u l ptur e s , a few p o r tr a i t s among them .
Whe n i t
f ina l ly b e c ame ne c e s s ary t o u s e t h e k i ln f o r t h e f ir s t t ime ,
But we ha d
i t dawne d on me that mayb e we don ' t kn ow i t a l l .
to u s e the k i l n , a n d t he f i r s t b i sque f ir e wa s ha l f f i r e d ,
but i t w a s u s ab l e .
But then I s t ar t e d g l a z in g an d , o f c ou r s e ,
s in c e I di dn ' t know anything abo ut g l a z i n g a n d g l a z e s , I
u s e d comme r c i al g l a z e s we c ou l d buy f rom va r i o u s man u f a c ­
turer s .
The i r c at a l o g s l i s te d the g l a z e s that wer e ava i l ­
ab l e by c o l o r an d numb e r b ut , o f c o u r s e , we di d n o t know
what they l o o ke d l i ke .
I ha d to m ak e t e s t s , I o r de r e d
s ampl e s f i r s t an d then app l ie d t h e g l a z e s o n smal l t i l e s
an d f ir e d them .
F ina l ly a fte r t he s e c o n d f i re , we knew t he
temperature at wh i c h the g la z e s shou l d b e f ir e d , an d we be ­
gan a pp l y ing t hem to s ome o f Gert r u d ' s
po t s .
We h a d great
e xp e c t a t ion s to open t he k i ln a f t e r the f ir i ng , but i t w a s
T h e r e wa s o n l y
E ve ryth ing wa s ru ine d .
a c omp l e t e di s a s t e r .
o n e p i e c e w h i c h wa s n ' t r u ine d , an d i t l o ok e d beaut i f u l - a t l e a s t , t o u s i t di d .
But , un fortuna t e ly , i t wa s s tuc k t o
the s h e l f .
That wa s on ly natura l , bec au s e we forgot to
p a i n t the s he l f w i t h k i l n wa s h , and the gl a ze had run when
it me lte d dur ing the f ir ing , an d there it wa s , so l i dl y s t uck
to the she l f .
We t r i e d to pry t he p i e c e l o o se an d i n t he
proce s s i t broke .
We l l , i t w a s not a ve ry encourag i n g
19
b e g i n n i n g , but we were p er s i s t e n t .
I t r i e d to f i n d book s
o n the s u b j e c t i n the l i brary .
I di dn ' t want t o go b a c k
Ge r t r ud we n t o n c e to the Kun s tgewe r be s c h u l e
t o MY . I sk r a .
j u s t to i n q u i r e an d foun d out that the i r c o u r s e i n c e r amic s
t ak e s four y e a r s , f ive day s a wee k .
You c annot have a j ob
on the s i de , y o u have t o a t t e n d s c hoo l a l l day .
Be s i de s ,
s he t o o k a l ook at t he t h i n g s they m a de the r e an d wa s n o t
imp re s s e d , a t l e a s t n o t a t t he t ime she wen t t h e r e .
I
We both ha d very
don ' t know what h appe n e d be f o r e o r a f t e r .
We both s e n s e d
s trong o p i n i o n s o f wha t w e want e d to do .
tha t c l ay wa s a ve ry b e a ut i fu l me di um , but we h a d no i de a
how to han dl e i t .
We di dn ' t g i ve up a f t e r the f i r s t f ir ing .
We r ea l i ze d t hat
i f t h i s c on t in u e s we won ' t be ab l e to a f f o r d i t , but l et ' s
t ry aga in anyway .
I don ' t r e c a l l now who to l d u s that we
shou l d p ai n t t he s he lve s w i th k ao l in , then t h i ng s wou l dn ' t
s t i c k , a t l e a s t not a s muc h .
We c hange d to di f f er e n t g l a z e s ,
we e xp e r imen t e d w i t h g l a ze s we bought f r om a f a c t o ry in
They were mo r e beaut i ful an d mor e r e l i ab l e ,
C z e c ho s lovak i a .
an d t hen one o f t he e n g ine e r s wher e we bought the g l a z e s s a i d
t o u s , " We l l , I c an g i ve y o u a f ew t i p s an d I c a n t e l l y o u
what w e n t wro ng . "
And t hen he s a i d, " A g l a z e l i k e t h i s you
c a n even mix y o ur s e l f .
J u s t t ake thi s an d t h i s , " he j u s t
men t io n e d some r aw m at e r i a l s , an d I t r i e d i t .
Howeve r , I
di d i t vi s ua l ly , an d that w a s c e r t ain ly dumb b e c a u s e what
gave t he g l a z e its p ink appe arance in the r aw s t ag e wa s r e d
le a d wh i c h i s j u s t the f l ux , o r r a t he r part o f the f l ux in
t he g l a z e .
S o there wa s n o t e nough f l ux in the g l a ze a n d
my f ir s t g l a z e wa s s uc h t h a t y o u c o u l d, a f te r t h e f ir i ng ,
put your f ingerna i l un de r i t an d l i ft i t o f f .
Al l I wante d
The
wa s to make a norma l , g lo s sy g l a ze o f a ce r t a i n c o l o r .
c o lor wa s no prob lem bec au s e I h a d t r i e d ox i de s be f o r e in
some o f t he c omme r c i al g l a z e s and I knew wh i c h c o l o r they
A l s o , I h a d r e a d the c hapter in my o l d c hemi s try
wou l d turn .
text , about ha l f a p a ge long , which dea l t w i t h po t t e ry an d
porc e l ain an d l i s t e d s o me o f the g l a ze ing r e die nt s .
I bo ught
tho s e an d b e g an expe r iment ing .
An d t h i s i s how e ve n tu a l ly
t he f i r s t g l a z e came to b e .
The n ext t h i n g wa s
O f c o u r s e , t h e r e were many ob s t ac le s .
the g la z e s became ve ry b l i s t e ry , they h a d pockmark s , b l i s ­
t e r s wh i c h opene d, but g r a dua l ly I l e a rne d what c a u s e d wha t .
I f I u se d mo r e f lux , i t w i l l me l t more , i f I u s e mo r e kao l in
o r s i l ic a i t w i l l me lt l e s s , a n d so on .
The r e wa s o n e t h i n g
I di d very r e l i g io u s l y , I wr o t e down e ve ry e xp e r i ment I di d ,
b u t t he exper ime n t s I di d i n t he beginning we r e ve ry h a p ­
ha z a r d .
RB :
You ke pt j ourna l s ?
ON :
Not c omp l et e j ourna l s , but j u s t w r i t i n g down the i n gr e di e n t s
a n d in what proport i on I u s e d them .
Gr a dua l l y i t r e s u l te d
in some t hing that looke d l i ke a g l a z e .
I w a s quite proud o f
t h i s ac h i e vement .
After some time I l o o k e d b a c k o n s ome o f
20
t he b l i s t e ry , e a r l i e r e xp e r i me n t s I made and found t h a t t he y
we r e q u i t e i n t e r e s t ing an d s o mehow b e longed in the vo c ab u ­
I f e lt they we r e c e r t a i n l y p art o f i t ,
l a ry o f t h e med i u m .
Why s ho u l dn ' t tha t p a r t b e a l so vi sua l
part o f the proce s s .
a f terwa r d ? And s o a f t e r s o me mor e e xpe r i ment s I t r i e d to
i n c re a s e so me o f the mi s t ak e s I made and went i n the o ther
d i r ec t ion :
mor e b l i s t e r s , l a rge r po ck mark s !
And s o t he
f i r s t r e a l l y inte r e s t i ng g l a z e s for wh i c h we b ec a me k n own
l at e r one c a me into be ing .
RB :
How wou l d y o u de s c r i be i t ?
ON :
I c o u l d be s t d e s c r ib e i t by showing y o u so me e xa mp le s , then
you ' l l unde r s t a n d .
They we r e f a u l ty , but they we r e s tunn i n g
in a way .
RB :
You me an , the f a u l t s that you wen t bac k to - -
ON :
Y e s , and made the m d e l i be r a t e ly , t r i e d to con tro l t h e m s o me ­
how , and l a t e r on , a s a mat t e r o f f ac t , t o t h i s day , I l o ve
t o c o n t r o l wha t cannot b e c o mp l e t e l y c o n t r o l l e d , w h at nature
c r e at e s , t he a c c i d e n t a l and a t t i me s the i mp o s s ib l e .
Cer a mi c s i s a very i n t e r e s t in g med i u m .
You may t h i n g o f
c l ay a s at l e a s t three di ff erent mat e r i a l s w i th ve ry d i f ­
f e r e n t c h a r a c te r i s t i c s .
O n e i s so ft , very mo ldabl e , p la s t i c ;
one w h i c h i s b a r e l y y i e l d ing , but you s t i l l c an bend and i t
y i e l d s t o p r e s sure ve ry l i t t le ; and one wh i c h i s c o mp le t e l y
h a r d a n d br i t t le , wh i c h c an b e c a rved o r s anded , unt i l t he
Eve n then you c an s t i l l c h i s e l i t and
t i me i t i s f i r e d .
So unt i l the
p e r ha p s s aw or d r i l l i t , b ut i t ' s f r ag i le .
f ir i n g you have t hr e e c o mp le t e ly d i f fe r ent me d i u ms ; they
T he r e
a r e , of c o ur s e , j u s t d i f f e r e n t s t ag e s of one me d i u m .
a r e c e rt a in t h i n g s y o u c an d o o n ly in t h e s o ft s t ag e , then
l e ave t he wo r k a lone and let i t dry ; or you c an b e g i n to
wo r k in t he so ft s t age and c o n t inue when the c lay i s what
is c o mmo n l y r e f e r r e d to as l e ather-hard , when i t ' s s t i l l
y ie l d i n g o r mo i s t , and then f in i s h when i t ' s c o mp l e t e l y hard ;
o r y o u c an l e ave i t at the s t age when i t ' s l e ather - ha r d , c o n ­
Y ou c an even
s ider the wo r k f in i s h e d an d j u s t l e t i t dry .
c arve a lu mp of c lay , i f i t is too s o ft , let i t dry to t he
l ea t h e r - h ar d s t age , and then c arve i t .
A f t e r the c l ay i s dry y o u s t ar t the f i r i n g .
The f ir e c an b e
u s e d a s a t oo l , b u t i t a l so c a n b e u s ed a s p art o f t he me d i u m .
I t mu s t a lway s b e u s e d a s a t o o l f ir s t t o make t h e c l ay h ard
and i mp e r viou s to wat e r .
After the f i r s t f i r ing , we c a l l i t
the b i sque f i r e , c l ay b e c o me s per mane nt .
The:re may o c cur a
s l ight c o lor change in t he c lay , an d s o me s h r ink a g e - - that
is a l l .
But you c an a l so u s e t he f ir e to beco me a p a r t o f
t he me d i u m when you " r e du c e " i t .
I t me an s burn i n g o r g a n i c
mat t e r i n t h e k i ln dur i n g t he f i r in g proce s s .
Burn ing t h e
o r ga n i c mat e r i a l w i l l a b s o r b the oxygen in the k i l n , and
when t he o xy gen s up p ly i s e xha u s ted i t wi l l draw o xy g e n f r o m
t h e c l ay and so me o f t he g l a z e ing r e d i e n t s and change the i r
c o lor .
T h e proc e s s i s c a l l e d " re duc t ion . "
I t i s a c o mp l et e ly
21
d i f fe r e n t u s e o f the f i r e .
When I do a r e duc t i o n f ir e ,
e s pec i a l ly when I u s e n a t ur a l o rgan i c m at e r i a l s , I c re a t e
smo ke , d r a f t s , a n o p e n f l ame .
There i s smoke deve lop i ng
dur ing t he f ir in g , which wi l l a f fe c t the o b j e c t s i n s ide
t he ki ln .
I t i s imp e r a t ive t o do c e r t a i n t h i n g s dur i n g
the redu c t ion f i r e at t he t i me t h e ob j ec t s i n t h e k i ln a r e
r e s pon s i ve .
That me an s t h e g l a z e mu s t b e l iq u i d o r v i s c o u s ,
and at a temp e r a t ur e conduc ive to r e ac t io n with the a tmo s ­
phe r i c c o nd i t io n s in the k i l n , n ame ly t h e l a c k o f o xygen due
to the b urn ing proce s s .
Deve loping c arbon part i c l e s may
s e t t l e on the g l a z e , or b ur n w i t h in the g l a z e an d c r e at e
c e r t a i n e ff e c t s .
Dra f t s wi l l i n f luence the l iq u i d g la z e ,
and the deve l o p i n g smo ke wi l l t r av e l in a c e r t a i n d i r e c t ion .
A l l t he s e o c currence s w i l l have an e f f e c t on t h e c o l or and
t e xture o f the g l a z e . [ I d i d q u i te a j ump r i ght now , be c a u s e
when I ma de my f ir s t e xp e r iment s I d idn ' t know any t h i n g abo u t
r e duc t ion f ir e s .
I may have r e ad s ome th in g abou t t hem , but
I d idn ' t t ry b e c a u s e I wa s not e ven b e g inning t o unde r s t an d
anything about i t .
A s a m a t t e r o f f a c t , t he very f ir s t r e ­
duc t ion f i r e I d i d w a s in the s ummer o f 1 9 4 0 , in S an F r an c i s c o .
We worked at the Wo r l d ' s F a i r on T r e a s u r e I s land in what w a s
c a l l e d " Ar t in Act io n . "
The r e w e r e some very i n t e r e s t ing
art i s t s there at the t ime .
Amo ng o t he r s , Diego Rivera wa s
wo r k i n g on a b ig mur a l and oppo s i t e from o u r " c age " w e r e
He nning and Caro lyne Ree s do ing the i r ve ry imag i n a t i ve
we aving .
We wor ke d there f o r three we e k s w i t h a r e a l l y t iny
And t he n r ight there - - I gue s s
ki ln that was l o a n e d to u s .
the minute s i z e o f the k i ln encouraged me - - I f e l t I c o u l d
r u i n on ly ve ry f e w p ie c e s , I d i d my f i r s t e xper ime n t s w i th
I u s ed t he ro l l e d-up S a n F r an c i sc o Chron i c le a s
reduction .
a r educ i n g agent , squee z in g i t through the pe epho l e o f t h e
k i ln a n d t he r e s u l t s w e r e a c c o r ding .
I t d i dn ' t d o anyth i n g
f o r o u r pot s , b u t t h i s w a s the very f i r s t beg in n i n g o f my
e xpe r i ment s with r e d uc t ion f ir e s . ]
RB :
We wer e t al k ing l a s t t ime about your l i fe in the e a r ly
t h ir t i e s in V i enna and we h ad you j u s t mo ving into the
studio .
We r e you l iving in the s tudio ?
ON :
No .
On ly some t ime s I wou l d sp end t he n ight the r e , b e c au s e
we h a d a pec u l i a r arrangement with t he mun ic ip a l power c om­
Our k i ln wa s an e l ec tr i c k i ln and we f ir e d it abo ut
p any .
onc e or twic e a we e k .
E l ec tr i c h e at i n g u s e s a l o t o f e l e c ­
t r i c i ty and e l e c t r i c ity w a s e xtreme ly e xpe n s ive in Vienna
at t hat t i me .
I r ec a l l when we got to t h i s c o untry i t w a s
It
o n e o f o u r great s urpr i s e s h o w che ap e l e c t r i c i ty w a s .
co s t about one tenth o f what i t c o s t i n Vienna dur i n g t h e
t i me w e l ived there .
Howe ve r , w e go t a spec i a l r e duc e d r a t e
whe n we u s e d e le c t r i c i ty d u r i n g o f f hour s .
We p a i d app r ox i ­
ma t e l y one t e n t h o f the r e g u l a r r a t e f o r the k i ln when we
u s e d i t between 1 0 P . M . and 6 A . M .
So whenever I f i re d t he
k i l n , I u s e d to s t ay a t the studio o ve r n i gh t , about o n c e o r
twi c e a we e k .
U s ua l ly I s pent abo ut s i xteen hou r s a t the
s tudio .
22
RB :
E a c h day ?
ON :
E a c h day , ye s .
RB :
We r e you not yet d i vo r c e d from your f i r s t wi f e ?
ON :
Oh ye s , by that t ime I wa s d ivo r c e d .
I go t my o ff ic i a l
d i vo r c e i n S e pt emb e r o f 1 9 3 4 .
We had n o t been l i ving to ­
ge ther f o r quite s ome t ime be f o r e then and when we f i n a l ly
go t d i vor c e d that wa s the e n d .
RB :
And G e r t ru d
ON :
She wa s s t i l l wo rking , but the wonde r fu l thing wa s , i t took
he r l e s s than two minut e s t o wa l k f rom h e r p l ac e of wor k to
the s tudio .
She m ade use o f th i s pro ximi ty frequent ly dur ing
h e r l unch hour , and some t ime s e ven dur ing the t ime she wa s
s uppo s ed to wor k , she s n e ak e d o f f to f in i s h a p ie c e i n the
I t wa s an
wo rkshop and then r u s h e d back to the o ff ic e .
inte r e s t ing l i fe , but she h a t e d her j o b .
[ I looked up my
r e c o r d s in t he me an t i me ; we rented t he s tudio i n 1 9 3 5 and
we s t ay e d there unt i l 1 9 3 8 when we l e f t f or Ame r ic a . ]
w a s s t i l l w o r k in g ?
Dur i ng that t ime I t r i e d to learn a s much a s po s s ib l e .
I
don ' t know , but for s ome r e ason I got s o invo l ve d a n d i n t e r ­
e s ted i n c e r amic g l a z e s t h a t I s p e n t mo s t o f my time e xpe r i ­
men t ing i n that direc t io n .
A l s o , w e d i dn ' t have a market f o r
wh at w e produc e d , a n d in o rder t o make the studio p ay f o r i t ­
I n a dd i t io n ,
s e l f , we too k i n o ther p e o p l e ' s wo r k to b e f i r e d .
s t r ange ly e nough , we had one o r two students at some t ime ,
even tho ugh our own know l e dg e wa s rather l imited .
Pr a c t i c a l ly a s s o o n a s we mo ved into the studio G e r t r u d and
Rather than t r y i n g t o
I began t o c o l l aborate i n o ur wo r k .
d o t he s ame wo rk , I c o n c e n t r a t e d on g l a z e s wh i le s he c o n ­
c en t r a t e d o n form a n d t hrowi ng .
The rea son w a s very obviou s .
S he wa s so unbe l ievab ly t a l e n t e d in h e r way o f wo r k i n g ; i t
was not i c e ab l e a l r ea dy t he f i r st t ime I s aw h e r a t I s kr a ' s .
She w a s o n e o f t he younge s t s t udent s there , the mo s t r e c ent ,
and her throwing wa s advan ce d , c ompared to p eo p l e who h a d
wo rked t h e r e for a y e ar o r two .
I f e lt I c o u l d no t s t an d
t he c omp e t i t ion , I a lway s somehow want e d t o e xc e l i n wha t
I wa s do ing .
A s far a s t hrowing wa s con c e rne d , I s aw t hat
S o I l e f t Gert rud
to her own de vic e s and
it wa s hope l � s s .
I concentrated on other a spec t s o f our me d i um .
We had a
very good un der s t an d i ng , and th i s way we were neve r i n com­
p e t i t ion with e ac h other .
RB :
We r e you s t i l l u s ing comme r c i a l ly produced c lay ?
ON :
Ye s , we s t i l l bought c omme r c i a l c l ay and in
we bought c omme rc i al g l a z e s .
Howe ve r , very
m i x va r io u s me t al oxide s with s ome o f t ho s e
g l a z e s and c hange t he i r c o lor s a n d t e xtur e s
the b e g i nn i n g
s oon I b e ga n t o
manu f a c t u r e d
in do ing s o .
23
L a t e r on I s t arted c omb i n in g s ome o f the s e g l a z e s , and then
f i na l ly , a ft e r m aybe a y e a r o r so , I be c ame mo r e invo l ved
I
in g l a z e c hemi stry and I s t ar ted m ak i ng my own g l a z e s .
t a l k e d about thi s l a s t Monday .
I t r i ed to dup l ic a te a c om­
merc i al g l a ze by l o o k i ng at i t i n the r aw s t ag e , whi ch was
c e r t a in ly dumb , but I d i dn ' t know any b e t t e r , and s o the
f i r s t " gl a ze s " I p r o du c e d were no g l a ze s at a l l .
But they
l e d f ina l ly , a f te r a long s er i e s o f exp e r i me nt s , i nto what
b e c ame to be known a s my own g l a ze s .
RB :
The famou s Otto N at z l er g l a ze s .
Now wha t wa s the m ar k e t f o r
what y o u and Gertru d we r e produc ing ?
ON :
Ni l .
RB :
Y o u j u s t c o l le c te d t he p i e c e s ?
ON :
Numbe r one , due t o e ve r n ew e xp e r iment s , we r u i n e d s o much
t h a t i f we d idn ' t t hrow i t away r i ght a ft e r i t c ame o ut o f
the k i ln , we d i d s o a f te r a f ew we e k s o r c o up l e o f mon th s .
Whe n we f i na l ly had a few p iece s I thought I s h ou l d re a l ly
One o f my f i r st c on t ac t s
l o o k for a n out let fo r our wor k .
w a s a sma l l shop i n t h e Hoc h ha u s wher e I l ive d at the t ime
I had known the owner c a sua l ly b e f o r e ; t hey
I wa s marrie d .
ha n d l e d main ly s ma l l furni ture p i e c e s an d a few me t al and
c e r am i c o b j ec t s .
Surp r i s in g ly the own e r was q u i te i nt r igu e d
by what w e s howed h i m .
H e s a i d , " We l l , I ' m not g o i n g to buy
anyth i n g , but i f you ' r e w i l l ing to l eave it h e r e o n con s ig n ­
men t , I ' l l t ry a n d s e e wha t happen s . "
RB :
What w a s h i s name ?
ON :
The name o f the shop w a s " De r Wohnraum , " whi c h means " the
l i vi ng room . "
The r e were two owne r s , F r i t z Ro t te r and h i s
p artner , Ne l ly Sp i s s .
Ne l ly e spec i a l ly wa s very i nt r i g u ed
by our wor k and l a t e r on Mr . Rot te r a l s o .
Th ey both c ame
to the Un i t e d S t at e s eventu a l ly an d we s aw t hem when they
l i ve d in New Y o r k .
N e l ly died s ome ye ar s bac k , but F r i t z
Rot t e r wor ke d a s an i n t e r i o r de s i gner .
I don ' t know whe t h e r
he ' s s t i l l working .
The l a s t t ime I s aw h im w a s maybe t e n
ye a r s ago .
He h a d a sma l l co l le c t i on o f Nat z le r s then ,
even s ome new one s whi ch he acqui red in New Y or k , s o i t
s e ems that h e l i ked them .
Do you remembe r ?
Or the name o f t h e s hop ?
Another o f our Vienne s e o ut l et s w a s an a r c h i te c t by t he
name o f Loren z .
He and h i s wi fe h a d a shop i n the f i r s t
d i s t r ic t .
They d e s igned furn i ture and d i d a go o d d e a l o f
i n t e r io r dec orat ion .
They we re intere s t in g peop l e , ve ry
c ivi li z e d and q u i te fo nd o f our wo r k .
At t h e t ime we met
t hem they had a partne r , but the two sp l i t and t he o t h e r
p art ne r opened h i s own int e r i o r s hop not too f a r away .
He
wa s a n inte r e s t i n g m an , who o r i g i n a l ly wa s a med i c a l d o c t o r ,
b e c ame d i s gu s ted and gave up med i c ine .
He owne d a very l a rge
Chin e s e c o l l ec t ion whi c h , un for tuna t e ly , I n eve r s aw .
24
RB :
Wha t wa s h i s n ame ?
ON :
H i s n ame w a s D r . Re i c h e l .
I f o r go t h i s f i r s t name .
Dr . Re i c h e l h ad a very c o a r s e , s c r a t c h in g vo ic e , and he
wa s very fond o f our wo r k .
As a mat t e r of f a c t , he s a id
He h a d ve ry
our wo r k wa s the on ly Kun s tgewer be h e l i ke d .
goo d t a s te and he wa s very s e lec t i ve .
When we l e f t Au s tr i a
and s a id goo d - bye t o h i m , h e h a d n e a r ly t ea r s i n h i s e y e s
a n d h e s a id , " I don ' t wor ry a bout you , y ou ' l l b e one o f t h e
f i r s t c e r ami c i s t s in t he Un i t e d S t a te s , " and I thought o f
h im many , m any t ime s .
I d i dn ' t be l ie ve h im then , b e c a u s e
I didn ' t t hink Ame r i c a w a s s o e a sy to c onque r , b u t some how
or other we had good luck , and one o f the good l uc k s t r o ke s
wa s that , i n 1 9 3 9 , at t he N at io n a l C e r amic s Exh i b i t ion in
Syr a c u s e , New Y or k , we won f i r s t p r i ze for a g roup of f ive
piec es .
RB :
Th at ' s when you c ame h e r e ?
ON :
Ye s , that was l e s s than a y e a r a ft e r we arr i ve d in t he
Un i t e d S t a t e s .
RB :
Now , in the p e r i o d between 1 9 3 3 and 1 9 3 5 you we r e d i vo rc e d ,
you were not wo rking a t anyth i n g e l s e for a l i ving .
ON :
No .
RB :
Never a g a i n .
ON :
N o t q u i t e , b e c au s e for one mon th I h a d a j ob wh i c h I c on ­
s idered r e al ly t he wor s t thing that happened t o me at that
t ime .
A d i s t an t r e l a t ive f e lt that my t al ent s a s a " te xt i l e
d e s igner " shoul dn ' t b e w a s t e d , and h e t r i e d very h a r d t o
He s u c c e e d e d f ina l ly and found an opening
f ind a j o b f o r me .
in a l a r g e t e xt i l e mi l l , w i th t he f a c t o ry in C z e c h o s lovak i a
and the o f f ic e i n Vienna .
The o n l y fortunate p a rt abou t t he
j o b wa s that the o f f ic e wa s w i t h i n f i ve minute s wa l k ing di s ­
t ance f rom my p aren t s ' apa rtme nt whe r e I l ive d a t the t ime .
The o f f ic e I wo rked i n w a s d i sm a l .
I n a room about o n e ­
third the s i z e o f t h i s r o o m were three other men and a g ir l ,
The room h ad one window
who wa s t he s e c r e t ary o f one .
wh i c h opene d on a l ight sha f t about s i x o r s e ven f e e t squa r e .
The o f f ic e wa s on the me z za n i n e f loor , wh ich wou l d be the
s e c o n d f loor by Ame r i c an s t andar d s , o f the bu i l d i n g of s i x
o r s e ven f l oor s , s o the day l i ght that c ame i n w a s p r ac t i c a l ly
non - e x i s tent .
You had to wo r k w i t h arti f ic i al l ight a l l the
t ime .
My three c o -wo r ke r s had inter e s t in g n ame s wh i c h I ' ll
n ever forge t .
They we r e :
Teufe l , S t i e l and He t ze r .
Teu f e l
mean s the devi l , S t i e l i s a s t i c k o r a long broom h an d l e ,
what we c a l l a B e s e n s t ie l , and Het ze r tran s l at e d me an s a
And t he peop l e
revo l ut ion ary he c kl e r o r a r abb l e rou s e r .
them s e l ve s we r e d i sma l .
They d i d not t al k t o e ach other ,
and I on ly r e c a l l that Mr. He t z e r s o r t o f l i ked the g i r l
b e c a u s e s he was q u i te pre tty , and he t r i e d t o m ake a dvan c e s
to her ; t hat w a s about the o n l y p l e a s an t t h i n g go ing on t h e r e .
25
RB :
Do y ou r emembe r wha t y e a r that took p la c e ?
at h ome i n the e a r ly th i r t ie s .
You we r e l i ving
ON :
I wa s l i ving at home and i t w a s in the e a r ly t h ir t ie s .
It
w a s De cembe0 1 9 3 3 .
The who l e t h ing l a s t e d e xa c t ly o n e month .
I t wa s my happ i e s t day o f that mon th when I wa s to l d that I
wa s f i red .
RB :
So you were beg inn i ng to market your p iece s r i ght away in
1 9 3 5 , o r w a s i t --
ON :
Y e s , i n 1 9 3 5 , a f t e r we mo ved into the s t ud i o .
w an t e d t o cover at l ea s t our e xp en s e s .
RB :
And you we r e s t i l l l iving at home at t h i s t ime ?
ON :
Ye s .
I h ad t o e at .
The r e wa s n e ve r any que s t ion .
I d i dn ' t
They
f e e l too b a d ly b ec au se my parent s wer e f a ir ly we l l o f f .
we r e s upport i ve , even though t hey f e lt - - e sp e c i al l y my
mo ther - - that I s ho u l d c o n t inue i n some t hing mo r e pra c t i c al .
I r ea l i ze d a l so t hat they we r e probab ly wo r r i e d that I ' d get
i nvo lved w i th the wrong p e r son , wh i c h I knew was not the c a se .
RB :
S o you wo r ked eve ry day , a l l day and a lot o f n ight s at the
studio , and t h i s was 1 9 3 5 and you we r e b e g in n i ng to market ,
you we r e be g inning to change your g l a z e s - -
ON :
By the e n d o f 1 9 3 5 I b e l ie ve I embarked on my f ir s t g l a z e
I c o n t inued them wh i le do i n g s c u l p t u r e a t the
e xp e r imen t s .
s ame t ime , and when we knew that our t i me in V i enna had c ome
to an end , I concentrated e xc l u s i ve ly on g l a z e e xp e r ime nt s .
I wanted to be c omp l e t e ly independent , s i nc e g l a z e s wh i c h we
u s e d i n Aus t r i a wo u l d not be ava i la b l e to us h e r e .
RB :
What w a s happen ing to your fami ly and Gertrud ' s
three -ye ar per io d ?
ON :
We l l , my father had r e t i r e d by the n .
He r e t i r e d f rom p r a c t i c e
a t a g e s eventy - two , and s t r an g e l y enough t h e f i r s t th ing h e
d i d in r e t i r ement , he began to s tudy Eng l i s h .
He a lway s l i ked
language s ; h e spo ke three l an guage s f lu e n t l y .
He w a s bo rn in
Mo rav i a wh ere he spoke C z e c h , and at home h i s f am i ly spoke
Ge rman , and a s a young s t e r he went to the g ymn a s i um in
Hunga ry where he d idn ' t know Hunga r i an whe n he began , but
by the t ime h e f in i shed s c hoo l he spoke i t f luen t l y w ithout
any acce n t .
At s c ho o l he l ea rn e d L a t in and Greek ( bo th we r e
o bl i g a t o ry ) , a n d then b y h imse l f h e s t ud i e d F r e n c h and l a t e r
After
on h e s t u d i e d I t a l i an b e c a u s e he l i ke d t he l ang uag e .
he r e t i r e d he wan t e d to l ea rn s t i l l another l an guage and so
I f t he r e ' s a l angua ge wh i c h
he s t u d i e d Engl i s h -- from book s .
o n e c annot l ea rn from book s , i t ' s E n g l i sh .
H e acqu i r e d q u i te
a marve l o u s vo c abu l a ry , but h i s pronunc i at ion w a s atro c i o u s .
Nonethe le s s , h i s s tudy ing o f Eng l i sh wa s ve ry h e l p fu + , b e ­
c au s e my p arents we r e ab l e to c ome t o th i s coun t ry ab o u t two
y e ar s a f t e r we c ame .
B e c a u s e we
dur in g t h i s
26
RB :
S o the reg ime w a s t ighten ing for Jews in Vienna ;
t he indi c at i o n that made you c ome ?
ON :
We l l , I ' l l l e a d up t o t h i s be cau s e I t hink the deve lopment
was inter e s t in g .
The N a z i s took o ve r Germ any , in 1 9 3 3 , and
They were
the Au s t r i an s thought nothing c an happen to them .
s o far away , and the Au str i an me nt al ity is so d i f f e r e n t from
t ha t o f the Ge rman s , n o t h i ng wi l l ever h appen here .
We a l l
f e l t very s e c u r e .
i s th at
Ge r t r ud and I met in t he s ummer o f 1 9 3 3 and i n 1 9 3 4 wen t
I n the s umme r o f that y e a r we w an t e d to
t o I s kr a ' s schoo l .
go on vacat ion and I sugge s t e d the Do l omite s , b e c a u s e I had
s e e n the D o l omite s be f o r e when I w a s s i xt e e n a n d I loved t hem .
I knew s he wo u l d love t hem too .
S he d idn ' t w an t to g o at
f ir s t but then , with the he l p of anothe r f r i e n d of our s , we
We went f i r s t to the A u s t r i an Do l om i t e s whe r e
p e r s uaded h e r .
we s t ay e d i n S t . J a c o b f o r about a we e k and m a d e day e xcur ­
s ion s , and then we p lann ed to go by t r a i n to S an Candido and
h ike through the I t a l i an Do l om i t e s from there to Ba l z ano .
I t wa s a s i x t o t e n - day h i k ing t r ip .
When we arr ive d at the
t r a i n s t at ion in L i n z we were to ld the train wa s ve ry muc h
de laye d .
The r e wa s s omething go ing on i n Vienna .
We l l , we
w a i t e d for an hour , we w a i t ed for two hour s .
F in a l ly , t h e r e
c ame a l o c omo t ive with one c a r a t ta c h e d to i t a n d that wa s
our t r a i n .
We found o u t that i t c ame f rom K l a gen furt
( C ar inthi a ) and the t r a i n from Vi e nn a n ever arr ive d .
Later
we l e arn e d t he r e w a s a N a z i upr i s ing in V i e nna which s t ar t e d
t h a t very day .
Do l l f u s s , who wa s chan c e l l or o f Au s tr i a , w a s
mur dered and S c hu s c hni gg took ove r and there w a s a l o t o f
shoot ing go ing on .
We bo arded the t r a in and we went i nto
F rom t he t r a in we s aw the I ta l i an a rmy mo ve t o the
I t a ly .
border o f Au s t r i a and I t aly , in f antry , a r� i l l ery , moto r i z e d
c o l umn s , hundre d s and hundreds o f men .
We knew some t h in g
O n l y the fo l l owing day i n San C a n d i da;
s er i o u s wa s go ing on .
we s aw the pape r s and f ound out what w a s happen ing , o r r a t h e r
what t h e p ap e r s p r i nted - - far from t h e truth .
Nonethe l e s s ,
we f e l t we wan ted to f o r g e t about i t , we we r e i n the moun ta in s ,
i n I t a ly , an d we ' l l j u s t go on our t r i p an d s t ar t e d h i king .
I t wa s not a s s trenuo u s a s i t i s her e go ing b a c kpack ing .
You don ' t have to c arry everyth ing w i th you , i n c lud i ng your
You a lw ay s ge t to a l i t t l e
food and s h e l t e r , for ten d ay s .
vi l l a g e o r some r e fuge whe r e you g e t me a l s and s l eep ing
f a c i l i t ie s o f some s o r t .
We j u s t c a r r ied our ruck s a c k s w i th
lunch and extra c l othing .
I t w a s a b e a ut i fu l e xpe r ie nc e ,
o ur f i r s t together in the w i l de r n e s s .
I t wa s t he f ir s t o f
many that f o l l owe d , e a c h o f wh ich we tre asured a s a g r e a t
event in o u r l i f e - - to g e t o u t i n t o t he moun t a i n s a n d be
by ourse lve s with natur e .
We l l , when
we s aw the
in Au s tr i a
so we fe l t
we fina l ly go t to Bal z ano , wh i c h i s a l a r g e r c i ty ,
news and l e arne d t ha t the upr i s in g w a s put down
and S c h u s c hn igg obvio u s ly e s t ab l i shed a new r e g ime ,
i t wou l d be s a fe to g o home .
Be s ide s , we wo u l dn ' t
27
have known what e l s e to do .
We d i dn ' t have any mon ey w i t h
u s t o s t ay f o r a pro longed t ime .
A f t e r our r e turn to V i e nn a
w e began wo r k in e arne s t .
I n t he beg i nn i ng I f e l t
even
whe n we wo rked together at I s kra ' s -- that we knew e ve ry ­
But wh en we we r e
th i n g , w e c an g o a n d do i t our s e lve s .
r e al ly o n o u r own I f e l t very muc h l i ke t h e f i r s t p o t t e r
who e ve r t o u c h e d c lay , w i th o n e b i g d i f f erence :
I knew f r om
r e ad i n g abo ut mate r i a l s that had be en u s e d to make g l a z e s ,
and we c o u l d g o and b uy the s e mate r ia l s in r e f in e d form .
We d idn ' t have to go out w i th a p i c kaxe and mine them .
Gradua l ly we met peop l e who he ard abo u t wha t we we r e do i ng
who c ame to s e e u s .
I a l r e ady me n t i o n e d that by then we had
some o f our wo r k p l ac e d i n three shop s an d l a t e r o n a fourth
I t w a s an intere s t ing p l ace that
one wa s added :
B imin i .
could o n ly e x i s t i n Vi enna .
The m an who owned i t w as a p o e t
who o bvio u s ly n e ve r m ade a d ime f r o m h i s poetry .
H e had a
very inte r e s t in g f a c e , ve ry lyr ic a l , s o p hi s t i c at e d , and in
thi s shop , with the h e l p of one o r two a s s i s t an t s , he pro­
duc e d sma l l ob j e c t s o f b l own and bent g la s s .
They we r e
charm i ng i n the i r s imp l i c i ty o f de s ig n .
When we c ame t o
thi s c ountry we brought at l e a s t ten o f t h e m w i t h u s but ,
un f o � tunat e ly , we gave a l l away t o peop l e who l i ked them .
We s hou l d have kept at l e a s t one for o ur s e lve s .
RB :
Wh at wa s h i s n ame ?
ON :
Hi s name w a s Fr i t z Lamp e l .
H i s w i fe w a s a we l l - known dr e s s ­
maker i n town and o bvio u s ly earned q u i t e a good d e a l o f
money .
The B imini shop probab ly a l so p aid for i t s e l f b e ­
c au s e t h e o b j e c t s they p r o duc e d were r e a l ly ve ry , very
Typ ic a l ly Vi e nne s e , and i n good t a s te .
We w a l k e d
charming .
by t h e r e o n e e vening a f t e r the opera and t h e show w indow wa s
l i t and we s aw some e xt reme ly beaut i f u l po t tery there .
That
wa s why one day I went there to s ee whether I c o u l d inte r e s t
him i n o u r work .
I d idn ' t t ak e any t hing along .
I a s ked an d
he s a i d , " We l l , I ' m r e al ly n o t inte r e s t e d . "
" But i t i s
I th ink i t wo u l d f i t i n and p e r ­
s imi lar t o wha t you have .
hap s I c an s how y o u some . "
" We l l , m ayb e , b r i n g m e a c oup l e
That I d i d an d h e g o t i n t e r ­
o f p i e c e s n e xt t ime yo u c ome . "
e s ted .
The wo r k h e hand le d i n h i s s hop w a s Luc ie R i e ' s - I don ' t know whether y o u are f ami l i a r w i t h h e r c eramic s .
Luc ie Ri e i s p ro ba b ly my favo r i te con t empor ary p o t te r .
Though she l ived i n Vi e nna , I never me t he r , I o n l y knew
her wo r k .
I know that she mo ved to Lon don and she s t i l l
l i ve s there , s t i l l wo rking and p r o duc ing very , very b e au t i fu l
c e ramic s .
A s I under s t and f rom p e o p l e who kn ew bo t h o f u s ,
So w a s Ge rtrudo
s he i s as fond o f our wo r k a s I ' m o f he r s .
It w a s at the B im i n i shop whe r e our wo rk met , but not t he
p e r son s who pro duc e d i t .
F r i t z Lamp e l wa s o n e o f many who never bought a p i e c e o u t ­
r ight , i t a l l we nt on con s ignme nt .
V i e nna was a n i nt e r e s t ing
c i ty i nso far as to find good d e s i gn , you had to look in
28
Some t ime s dark wor k s hop s
l i t t l e s ho p s o r up s t a i r s p l ac e s .
out in the s uburb s .
The s t o r e s in the m a in b u s ine s s s t re e t s
l i ke the Mar i ahi l f e r S t r a s s e , o r K arRtne r S t r a s s e , wo u l dn ' t
c a r ry anyt hing wor thwh i l e a s fa r a s
Kun s tgewe rbe w a s c o n ­
c e rne d .
But you went a b l ock o r two from the Ka rntne r
S t r a s se i nto t h e S e i l e r ga s se , in a dark c o rn e r t h e r e wa s a
smal l s ho p and you c o u l d f i nd t he mo s t e xqui s i t e o b j ec t s .
The r e wa s a g a l l e ry i n Vienna in the We i h burgga s se ,
W u rth l e g a l le ry .
I t w a s p r o bably t he be s t known c orrunerc i al
g a l l e ry dur ing my t i me there .
I t was in a n a r r ow s ide
s t r e e t from the Karntner S t r as s e , i n the " I nner C i ty , " o f f
t h e b ea t e n t r ack .
Gradu a l ly peop le fo un d o ut who we we r e .
I t w a s n o t e asy
be c au s e we d idn ' t s i gn our wo r k w i th o ur n ame , o n ly wi th
initi als .
A s a matter of f a c t , we had an int e r e s t i n g e x ­
I c o n t ac t e d an ­
p e r i e nce dur ing our l a s t y e ar in Vienn a .
o t he r shop in the B e s endo r fer S t ra s s e , a we l l known i n ­
t e r i o r de s i gn e r and h a d t he by t hen c u s tomary r e ac t io n ,
" No , I don ' t e ven want t o l o o k at anyt h i ng new , " but when
I s howed what we d i d t hey bec ame q u i t e i n t e r e s t e d .
I r emem­
ber the l a dy of the hou s e , K l a r i Wl ach , who s e h u s ba n d wa s an
a rc h i t e c t .
She l o ok e d at our wor k , turned i t o ve r and s aw
our in i t i al s - - we h a d both our i n it i al s , TA and ON impre s se d
on t h e bot tom o f e ac h p i ec e , and he r r e s po n s e w a s , " Al l r ig ht ,
I wou l d l i ke to o r de r s ome o f t he se .
But I don ' t w an t your
i n i t i al s i n i t , I want H & G , Hau s & Ga r t e n , t he n ame o f the
bu s i ne s s , in i t . "
I wa s o bviou s ly surpr i s e d and , a l i t t l e
b i t o n t he f r e s h s i de , I s a i d , " We l l , i f y o u want that we
w i l l o b l ige , but I can a s s ure you our i n i t i a l s are go i ng to
be mo r e impo r t ant than y ou r s in a f ew y e a r s . "
We both met
the Wla c h s in New Yor k aga in .
We b e c ame quite good f r i e n d s
l a t e r on .
S he w a s very c ha rming and we g o t to know e ac h
other a n d our indi vidua l i d i o sync r ac i e s ; w e c o u ld unde r s t an d
e ac h other .
She r e c a l l e d t he e p i s o de and w e laughed about i t .
RB :
Ther e are p ie c e s o f your s in the wo r ld t ha t s ay H & G on i t ,
o n t h e bot tom?
ON :
Y e s , not too many , m aybe f i fty - - s i xt y .
RB :
I t ' s go o d to know .
ON :
We even h a d one h e r e b e c au s e we t o o k about a hundred o f wha t
w e t ho ught we re o ur be s t p i e c e s t o th i s c ountry .
I ' ve o n l y
s i x o f t hem l e f t , n o n e w i th H & G .
II
I n 1 9 3 7 I go t in touch w i th the G a l e r i e Wurth l e in V i e nn a
and we h ad an e xh i b i t ion the r e , and that was the f ir s t t ime
t hat one o f the c r i t i c s too k not i c e o f u s , and we h a d a
short wr i te -up in the W i e n e r Tag - - one o f the V i e nn e s e
p ape r s .
I t wa s a f a i r ly g o o d wr ite -up , a n d w e were happy
That s ame y e ar we t r i e d t6 enter a few p i e ce s
abo ut i t .
in t he Wo r l d ' s Expo s i t ion in P a r i s .
Au s t r i a h a d i t s o wn
29
p a v i l ion and I r e c a l l I t ook ten p i e c e s to t he Me s s e P a l a c e
a n d I wa s r ather dub i o u s whe ther t he j ury wo u l d a c c e p t them .
Str ange ly e nough , f i ve o f them we r e ac c e pt e d .
We t o l d o u r ­
s e lve s t hey a c c epted on ly f i ve b e c a u s e o f s p ac e l im i t a t i on s ,
b e c a u s e the Au s tr i an pav i l ion wa s f a i r ly sma l l .
S ince we were repr e s e n t e d in P ar i s , t ha t w a s an o c c a s ion
It
to c e l e b r a t e and we dec ided to go the r e t ha t s umme r .
wa s inte r e s t ing to u s , b e c au s e when we got t h e r e t he e x­
po s i tion w a s suppo s e d to have b e e n on f o r about two we e k s ,
b ut peop l e w e r e s t i l l wo r k i n g o n b u i lding s wh i c h we r e no t
y e t f in i s he d .
N o n e t he le s s , we we r e qu i te imp r e s s e d , not
on ly by the who l e s e t t ing but notab ly by the two m a i n s truc ­
tur e s , wh i c h wer e oppo s i t e e ach other , the Germ an and the
Ru s s i an p avi l io n s .
Both were very imp r e s s i ve f rom t he o ut ­
s ide , but in s i de there was nothing but t e c hno l o gy , m a c h i n e ry ,
mi s s i le s , a i rp lane s , a utomo bi le s .
No art wha t s o e ve r .
Au s t r i a h a d a fa i r ly inte r e s t i ng a r t c o l l e c t ion .
The mo s t
bea u t i f u l p av i l ion s w e thought we r e t ho s e o f Sweden an d
And we s aw our p i e ce s .
We we r e very proud t o
F in land .
s e e them the r e e xh ib i ted a long s ide a number o f p ie c e s o f
Luc i e Rie ' s .
I don ' t rec a l l any other c eII r ami s t s that I
knew ; the r e m ay have been some wo r k by K at he P o l l ak , but
I ' m not s ur e .
We f e l t quite encouraged abo ut t h i s who l e
exp e r i e nc e , and a f t e r our short s t ay i n P a r i s we went to
the mo unt a i n s for a vacat ion and some fre sh a i r be fore g o i n g
b a c k to W i e n to wo rk .
O f c o ur s e , w e wan t e d o ur peop l e to
know that our work w a s e xh i b i te d in Pa r i s .
At t ha t t ime we go t an order from ab ro a d , f rom E n g l an d , I ' ve
f o r gotten f rom whom , but i t w a s some bo dy who w an t e d some o f
o ur work .
I n January the f o l lowing y e a r , wh i c h wa s 1 9 3 8 , i t s t ar t e d to
The r e we r e demo n s trat i o n s by t h e
rumbl e a l l ove r Au s tr i a .
Y o u c o u l d s e e peop l e
N a z i s , though the p arty wa s o ut lawe d .
wa l k ing around w i th swa s t i k a s whe r e ve r y o u we n t .
The demo n ­
s t r at i o n s were s t i l l smal l , but there were s tr e e t batt l e s
I t w a s at t ime s q u i t e unp le a sant to wa l k
h e r e and the r e .
in t h e s t r e e t s .
I t w a s s t i l l winter and I went on a s k i i ng va c a t ion .
Gertrud had neve r s ki e d ; s he t r i e d o n c e , but g ave up on i t .
S o I went s k i ing a l one and when I c ame back at t he b e g i n n i ng
o f March t he demo n s t r at io n s had incre a s e d and h ad b e c ome
l ouder and mor e vio lent .
On the e l eve n t h of Ma rch in the
mor n i n g I we nt to t he studio as u s u a l and I found i n the
mai l a letter from the Bunde smi n i s ter ium f il r Hande l und
Ve rke hr ( Min i s try o f Comme r c e and Tran spo r t a t i o n ) r e a d i n g :
" Thi s i s to in form you t hat you we r e awarded the s i lver
med a l at the P ar i s Wor l d E xpo s it ion and c o n gratu l a t i o n s ,
e tc . , et c . "
I t was a form l e t t e r .
The enve lope w a s an
o f f ic i al g overnment enve l ope and it had a rubber s t amp o n
( every A u s t r i an
it ,
Jeder O e s t e r r e i c he r s t immt mit ' Ja ' ,
vo te s ' Ye s ' ) .
I t re f e r r e d to the nat ion a l e l e c t io n s
30
s c h e du l e d for Sunday , t he 1 3t h o f March .
The S chu s c h n i g g
r e g ime wan t e d t o b e a c know l e d g e d and t ha t wa s t h e me an ing
o f tha t s t amp .
I was s u rp r i s e d and ve ry happy t o r e c e i ve
t he l et t e r , and I c al l ed Gertrud r i ght away .
She d i dn ' t
I s a id , " We l l , you ' 11 have to c ome
b e l i e ve me at f i r s t .
o ve r and I ' l l show i t to you . "
S he wa s the r e w i t h i n f i ve
minute s to l o o k at the l e t t e r and she , too , w a s very happy
about i t .
In the eve n ing of the very s ame day when we went
home we s aw part of t he Ge rman army e n t e r i n g Vi e nna .
They
marched down t he Mar i ah i l f er S tr a s se and we had d i f f ic u l ty
c ro s s i ng i t .
I t c e r ta i n ly w a s an an t i c l im ax f o r o u r
e la t ion .
I t i s the s tr ange s t thing how one kee p s on proc r a s t i n a t ing .
When t h e demo n s t r at ion s i n Vienna got l ouder and l oude r , we
we r e a l ly d i d not want t o
both had a ve ry une a sy f e e l ing :
s t ay t h e r e .
Ge rtrud
s a id , " We s ho u l d go to Amer ic a . "
" Ja , I t h i n k s o too ; I have a c o u s i n in Amer ic a who l e ft
Germ any i n the e a r ly t h i r t i e s .
What I ' l l do i s , I ' m go i ng
to wr i t e h im a l e t t e r . "
We t a l k e d about t h i s , o h , s in c e
January o r F eb ruary .
F i n a l l y on t he 1 0 t h o f March I m a i l e d
that l e t t e r to my c o u s in , te l l ing h im th at t h i n g s have b e gun
to det e r i o r at e in A u s t r i a , and he p robab l y w i l l r ememb e r
h o w i t f e l t - - he l ived through event s l i ke t h i s i n Ge rmany
- - an d we are c o n s i d e r ing p e r h ap s , m ayb e , i f the c o nd i t io n s
are r i gh t over t he r e , t o g o t o Amer ic a .
What a r e the c o n ­
d i t i o n s in t h e U . S . , what d o y o u have t o do t o g o t o t h e
Un i t e d S t ate s , a n d so on and so for th ?
I t w a s a l l very
va gue .
I m a i l e d t hat l e t t e r on the tenth .
On the e le ve n t h
the N a z i s mar c h e d i n , and o n t he t h i rteenth o f M a r c h Au s t r i a
wa s o f f ic i a l ly annexed by G e rm any .
I t t o o k s ome t ime , but
f i n a l l y I go t a very n ic e letter f rom my c ou s i n , an d h e
wro t e u s what one ha d to do .
Howeve r , we didn ' t w a i t for h i s l e t t e r .
On Monday , the
fourte enth , both Ge rtrud
an d I wen t to the Ame r i c an c o n ­
s ul a t e i n Vienna , j u s t t o i nq u i r e what o n e ha s to do i n
o rder to immigrate to t h e Un i t e d St ate s .
We we r e i n formed
t ha t the f ir s t th ing to do wa s to app ly for an immi grat i o n
vi s a a n d t h e n y o u have to get an a f f idavit o f s uppo r t f r om
s ome body i n the Un ited S t a t e s to make s ure that y ou won ' t
be c ome a p ub l ic c ha r ge when you get there and then , i f the
quot a for your c o untry i s s t i l l open , you wi l l b e g iven a
vi s a , provided that your a f f i d avi t , whateve r that i s , i s
s u f f i c ie n t to gua rantee your support .
Though we had no
i de a whether we woul d e ve r g e t t h i s do cument , r ight t hen
and there we s igne d , and that wa s our good f o rt une , number
one .
A s a mat t e r of f ac t , it was o ur b e s t fortun e .
On l y
l at e r w e found o ut t h a t vi s a s we r e i s s u e d in t h e o rder o f
the date an app l ic ant s i gne d , and s i nce we were one o f t h e
f ir s t one s to get to the Ame r i c an c o n s u l a t e at t h a t t ime ,
we had t he v i s a b e f o r e we had our pa s spor t s .
O f c o ur s e ,
we s t i l l had to w a i t .
I wro t e my cou s in aga in and to l d h im
by the t ime h e had rece ive d my f i r s t l e t t e r eve n t s o ve rt o o k
31
i t s c o n t e n t s an d now we are very s e r i o u s ly con s i de r i ng to
go t o the U n i te d S t a te s .
In t he me ant ime he t r ie d and
s uc cee ded to get us an a f f idavit in o rder for us to get a
vi s a .
I r e c a l l p art o f my f ir s t l e t t e r ,
when I inq u i re d
amo ng o t h e r t h i n g s whe t h e r o n e c ou l d g e t c l ay in L o s Ange le s .
RB :
He l ived in Lo s Ange le s .
ON :
He l i ve d in Lo s Ange l e s , y e s .
RB :
You were s t i l l l iving with your f am i ly thoug h ?
ON :
Y e s , I wa s l i vi ng wi th my fami ly a g a i n and Gert rud was
l i ving with h e r f am i ly .
Wh i l e we wa i t e d for a n an swe r from
Ame r ic a , we de c ide d i t wo u l d be so muc h e a s ie r i f we w e r e
ma r r i e d , a n d s o we marr i e d i n June o f 1 9 3 8 .
W e h a d t a lk e d
about i t for qu i t e some t ime but n e ve r found the t ime to ac t
b e c a u s e we wer e a lway s invo lved w i t h other t h i ng s .
F i na l ly
we d id marry on Jun e 7 th .
We t o ld our paren t s that we we r e
g o i n g t o g e t m arr i e d , b u t w e d i dn ' t invite them t o j o in u s .
We got marr i e d i n a synagogue r i ght a c ro s s the s t r e e t from
our studio , wi th o n ly two w i tne s s e s .
One w a s o ur g o o d
fr iend , F r i t z Kra s ny , who w a s t he l awye r who g o t Ge rt rud
out o f the red with the note she s i gn e d for I s kra .
He wa s
a ve ry dear f r iend o f o ur s .
He and I loved to s in g duet s
to ge t he r , mai n ly o f Wa gn e r i an o p e r a s becau s e h e a l so w a s a
great Wagne r i an , very muc h t o the desp air o f o u r g ir l f r i e nd s .
H e wa s one o f the w i tne s s e s an d t he other wi tne s s wa s the
h u s band o f Ne l ly S p i s s , Dr . Jacob S p i s s -F i sc her , whom bo t h
o f u s l i ked very muc h .
The c e remony w a s o ve r i n twenty
minute s and imme d i at e l y a f t e rwa r d s we we nt back t o the
Our p ar en t s were a l i t t l e b i t peeved abou t
s tudio to wo r k .
t h e who l e th ing , b u t on t he o the r h and t hey und er s to o d that
The Na z i s were a l ­
we wanted to ke ep things at l ow key .
r e ady i n fu l l powe r at that t ime an d they made i t d i f f i c u l t
in wh i c heve r w ay they c o ul d .
I t turned o u t - - I a lway s
k i dded Gertrud
about i t l a t e r o n - - that we wer e n o t
lega l ly marr i e d bec a u s e on t h e d a y we we r e mar r i e d the n ew
d e c r e e c ame out that y o u had to prove you wer e 1 0 0 % Jewi s h ,
t hat i s to the t h i rd g e n e r at io n , and you had to s ubm i t proo f
in o r d e r to get a marri age c e rt i f ic at e .
I t wa s in t he
pape r s that morn ing .
The r abbi knew about i t l i ke eve ry ­
body e l s e , but he s a i d , " I don ' t c are wha t they do , I ' m
.
�
go i ng t o marry you no m atte r what .
I t wo u l d have t aken
s eve r a l w e e k s to get the se c e r t i fic at e s be c au s e o ff ic e s in
Au s tr i a were very l ax at t hat t i me , e s pec i al ly in any t h i ng
r e l at in g to Jewi sh m at t e r s .
S o a c c o rd i n g t o the l aw o f the
l and we were not l e ga l ly marr i e d .
The n e xt t h i n g wa s that
We both had p a s sp o r t s but
we had to get o ur own p a s sport s .
They exp i re d with the t a keover o f the
they had e xp i r e d .
In o rder to g e t a p a s s ­
Na z i s an d they had to b e renewe d .
port at that t ime , e spec i a l l y for Jew s , you had to g o throug h
at l e a s t , I wou l d s ay , ten d i f f e r en t o f f ic e s to g e t va r i o u s
document s .
F o r in s t anc e , I h a d to g e t a n o f f i c i a l do c ume nt
32
that I p a i d my income t ax .
Natura l ly they wou l dn ' t w an t me
to l e ave without p ay ing income t axe s .
But I a l so had to
get a doc ume nt t hat I p aid my dog tax , even though I neve r
h a d a do g i n my l i f e .
I had to get a do cument t h at I p a id
a l l c u s toms dut i e s , e ven t hough I never imp o r t e d any t h ing
from abro a d .
I had to get a document that I w a s 1 0 0 %
Jewi s h .
I ha d to get a do c ument that I w a s not e l i g i b l e
for a rmy s e rvic e , e ven though i t w a s known that Jews we r e
not e l i g i b l e f o r s er vi c e in t he Ge rman army .
E a c h o f the s e
do c ument s took about s i x hour s o f w a i t i ng in l i ne s , s ome ­
t ime s e i ght hour s , s omet ime s d ay s o f w a i t i ng in l ine .
I
r ememb e r t hey to l d me , whe n you go f o r your c u s toms duty
documen t , g o there e a r ly in the mo rn ing .
So I went there
at s i x i n the mo rn ing , stood in l ine unt i l one t h i r ty .
There wer e s t i l l at l e a s t f i fty peop l e ahead o f me when
they c l o s e d the o f f i c e and s a i d , " We l l , c ome ba c k tomo r row . "
So I wen t back the n e xt day , got t h e r e a t t h r e e t h i r ty in
the mo r n i n g , and by one o ' c lock I f ina l l y go t i n , and then
i t t o o k three o r four we e k s unt i l you got someth ing in the
mai l wh i c h had your n ame on i t an d an o f f i c i al s tamp .
But
then , to c omp l ic at e matter s , the i n come t ax dec l a r a t ion w a s
So
on ly g o o d f o r a c e r t a in p e r io d , t h e n i t bec ame vo id .
s ome t ime , b e fo r e y o u had al l t he other docume nt s togethe r ,
s ome o f them e xp i red and you had to s t art a l l over a g a i n .
I t wa s r e al ly very Ka fkae sque .
I t so happene d that we w e r e
n o t i f i e d by the Ame r ic an con s u l at e that w e c o u l d g e t our
immig r at ion p aper s four o r f ive wee k s before we had o u r
p a s s po r t s .
A con s i de r ab l e amount o f t ime w a s sp ent w i th
c o r r e s pondenc e b e twee n the Un i t e d S t at e s an d Au s tr i a , my
c o u s in havi ng an a f f i d avit prep ared by s ome f i rm s upport e d
by income t ax dec l a r a t i o n s and so o n and so fort h .
The r e
we r e some document s mi s s ing .
But f in a l l y i t a l l w a s ap ­
prove d an d I c o u l d h ave p ic k e d up our vi s a four o r f ive
wee k s e ar l ie r , but we d i dn ' t h ave our p a s sp o r t s .
S ome o f the se o ff ic e s we r e ve ry d i s agree a b l e - - but mo s t
L i ke o n c e
t h i n g s w e e xpe r ie n c e d at that t ime we r e d i smal .
I r e c a l l p e op l e s t an d i ng in l i ne and somebody w a s s te p p i n g
to the s i de j u s t l o o k i n g how long t h e l ine w a s , when a un i ­
fo rme d S S man went by and k i c k e d t ha t p e r s on :
" St an d in
l ine ! "
I s aw peop l e t hrown down s t ai r s , having the i r fac e s
blo ody , f o r no r e a s o n what s o eve r , b e c a u s e they w an t e d to
get some i n f o rmat ion .
And s tr ange l y enough , when I c ame
to t hi s c ountry and me n t ione d s ome o f t he t h i n g s I h a d s e e n
a t that t ime , peo p l e s a id t o me , " Oh , that ' s a l o t o f p r o ­
p aganda , w e r e ad about i t in t h e pape r s .
That ' s a l l
propaganda , I c an ' t be l ieve i t . "
Af t e r l i ving h e r e three
or four mon th s I cou l d not b e l ieve i t my se l f , wha t I had
s een .
I t was c e r t ai n l y not p r o p aganda , and what I h a d
s een w e r e o n l y t h e f i r s t b e g inn ing s .
I t w as c h i l d ' s p l ay
t o wh at fo l l owe d l a t e r .
RB :
A l l o f the s e proce e d ing s too k how l on g ?
33
ON :
They t o o k c lo s e to f i ve wee k s .
Whe n I f in a lly wen t to g e t
my p as sport I h a d to s ign f o r i t .
Aga in , we h a d t o w ai t
in l i ne a n d t he n we we r e t aken into a n o f f ic e a n d i n t e r ­
viewed i n p e r s o n , o n e by one , in comp lete p r i va cy , by a n
o f f ic e r .
I r eme mb e r i t was a t the p o l i c e s t at i o n in
I w a s led i nto that o ff ic e , a un i fo rmed o f ­
Mar i a h i l f .
f ic e r we a r i n g an a rmband w i t h a sw a s t i ka s at at t he de s k .
He had a swa s t i ka emblem o n h i s lape l , and he w as very
f r i e n d ly , h e s a i d , " Where are you g o i ng ? "
And I s a id ,
" I t h ink I ' m go ing t o Amer ic a , " and he s a id , " It ' s a l l
r i ght , I w i s h I c o u l d g o with y ou .
I w i s h y o u good l uc k . "
I wa s r e a l ly
And we s ho o k han d s .
I was f l ab b e r ga s t e d .
f l ab be rg a s te d .
H e l o o ke d i nte l l i gent , h e probably w a s one
of t ho s e i d e al i s t s who w a s i n favor with un i t in g t he German ­
sp e aking Au s t r i a with G e rmany , who f e l t that Au s t r i a b y i t ­
s e l f c o u l dn ' t exi s t proper ly w i thout Germany .
H e a dmi r e d
t he Ge rma n s for the i r anc ient c u l ture , and the i r no t - s o ­
an c ie n t c u l ture , wh ich wa s nonethe l e s s ve ry r emar kab l e .
A s a f r ie nd o f ours s ai d , " Th e r e i s some t hing r emar ka b l e
abou t t h e Au st r i an s .
They have s u c c e eded i n dec l a r i ng
Be e t hove n an Au s tr i an an d l e t t i n g Hi t le r b ecome a German . "
So we got our p a s sp o r t s and on the 1 5 th o f Sep tember 1 9 3 8
we l e f t Vienna .
Our f i r s t stop w a s Tr i e s te .
We t o o k an
I t a l ian s hip from there .
We we r e a l so lucky in t h i s r e ­
s pe c t :
we c o uld pay for our f a r e from Vienn a t o t he Un i t e d
S t ate s i n German mark s .
At t he time we l e f t we c o u l d n o t
t ak e any money o u t o f t he c o un t ry , but w e wer e s t i l l a b l e
to t a k e a l l o u r e arthly b e l ong ing s , s u c h as t h e f ew p i ec e s
o f f urn i t ure we h a d , h o u s e ho l d u te n s i l s , our ent ir e wo r k ­
s hop , wo r k s hop mate r i a l s , a n d t oo l s .
And w e c o u l d p ay f o r
S ince
t he tran s po r ta t ion o f i t a l l to t he Uni ted S t a t e s .
we were not a l lowed to t ake any money , e xc ept f o r twe l ve
do l la r s e ac h , we had eve ryth i ng s h ipped .
When th i s huge
l i ft van arr i ved her e in Lo s Ange l e s , p e o p l e were s u rp r i se d
o f what wa s i n i t .
" What , you brought di sh towe l s ?
You
I knew we c o u l d buy d i sh t owe l s
c an b u y d i sh towe l s h e re . "
here but we c o u l dn ' t p ay for them w i t h money we d i dn ' t have .
We had l e f t Vienna b e f o r e our t h i n g s we r e p ac ke d , and we
a s k e d t hat e ve rything in the wo r k shop shou l d be s h ipped
here .
Obvio u s ly , they took i t l i te r a l ly because they i n ­
c lude d even s e ve r a l s ac k s o f c lay that w e had , whi c h we ighed
a ton .
S o we arr ived h e r e w i t h s ome Austr i an c l ay .
There wa s one th ing I d i d during the s e la s t wee k s .
C l ay
and mo s t gl a z e i ngr e d i e n t s were very inexpe n s ive , w i th one
e xc e p t ion , and that w a s uranium o x i d e , wh ich I u s ed i n
So in o r de r to s a ve someth ing o f va l ue
c e r t ain g l a ze s .
we c o u l d u s e , I bo ught twenty k i lo s o f uran i um o xide .
I knew i t w a s
Th i s I d i d e i ther in Ju ly o r Augu s t 1 9 3 8 .
probably g o in g to l a s t me a l i fet ime , a t t h e r a t e I wa s
u s i ng i t .
Ther e was no di f f ic ulty in o bta i n ing i t .
No­
bo dy c ar e d .
Uran ium was e as i ly ava i lab l e in 1 9 3 8 , wh i c h
surpr i s ed m e later on b e c a u s e very soon a f te r we got t o
34
th i s c ountry you c o u l dn ' t g e t any u r a n i um for c i vi l i an u s e .
For a wh i le I even thought o f de c l ar ing what I ha d but then
But I d i dn ' t u s e i t dur i n g t he
changed my mind abo ut i t .
w ar b e c a u s e I d idn ' t w an t to u s e any thing tha t wa s i l le ga l .
I s t i l l have a very smal l amount o f th i s Au s t r i an uran ium .
A s I mentioned be fore , w e l e f t on the 1 5 th o f September and
went t o Tr i e s t e - - very e l egant ly , the f i r s t t ime i n my
l i fe i n a wagon l it ( s leep ing c ar ) .
The r e a s o n for g o i n g
t o Tr ie s t e :
I h a d a n un c le there , Unc l e Rudo lph .
H e had a
h ou s e in Porto r o z ( at t hat t ime be long ing to I t aly a n d
s pe l l e d Portoro s e ) , wh i c h i s abo ut twen ty to t h i r ty mi l e s
We love d t o go
o ut s id e T r ie s t e o n the I � tr i an Pen i n s ul a .
there dur i n g o u r youn g e r y e a r s to swim in the Ad r i at ic .
He h ad invited u s to s t ay wi th h i s fam i ly b e fo r e le aving
f or t he Uni t e d S t a te s .
Our s hip left from Tr ie s t e ; it w a s
a n I t a l i an f r e i ghter named " Ri a lto . " W e h a d a c ho i c e o f
go ing e ither on an I ta l i an o r a Ge rman b o at ; we c ho se the
I t a l i an s , b e c a u s e I l i ke d the I t a l ian s and we c o u l dn ' t s t an d
t he Ge rman s .
T h e bo at l e ft on t h e 2 0 th , s o w e sp ent four
day s in Portor o s e w i th Unc l e Rudo lph .
They were four s ho r t
b u t v e r y happy day s .
W e wen t s wimming , and we f e lt very
I t a ly at t h a t t i me
r e l i e ve d to have g o t t e n out o f Au s t r i a .
w a s s t i l l ve ry open , e ven though Mu s s o l in i leaned towa r d s
H i t l e r a l r e ady .
B u t s t i l l w e c o u l d no t fe e l i t , e ve n though
we had to le ave Tr ie s t e imme d i at e ly b e c a u se Mu s so l i n i wa s
sp e ak in g there t hat day and my unc l e w a s a f r a i d that they
might wan t to put a l ie n s into prote c t i ve c u s to dy .
Under
such c ir c ums t an c e s , i t w a s w i s e to whi sk u s o f f to P o r t o ro s e ,
The we ather w a s be aut i ful and we
and we loved i t there .
e n j oyed four day s at t he wate r .
On the w ay to Tr ie s te we
s topped br i e fly at my unc l e ' s apartment , and t hen he t o o k
u s to t he s h ip .
I t wa s an I t a l i an f r e ighter , a s I s a id be fore , wh i c h went
f i r s t around t he I ta l i an " bo ot " to Genoa and then t hrough
t he S t r aights of G i bra l t a r t o Cura9ao and t hr ough the
P anama Cana l and up t he P ac i f ic co a s t to Los Ange l e s .
The
j o urney took c lo se to s i x w e e k s , with many l en g thy s top s
at va r i o u s p o r t s to t ake on and un l o ad good s .
Our f i r s t
p o r t w a s S p l i t , i n Yugo s lavi a , wh ich w e en j oy e d ve ry muc h .
We f e lt very free - - for t he f i r s t t ime i n s i x mon t hs .
It
w a s s uc h a re l ie f t o g e t o f f t he boat w ithout having t o
S p l it i s an i nt e r ­
s how a p a s spo r t a n d to w ander a round .
e s t ing c i ty ; there ' s a huge Mae strovich s c ulpture i n o n e
o f the squa r e s and w e e n j oy e d i t ve ry muc h .
Ye s , I shou l d me ntion , when my unc l e t o o k u s to the s h i p ,
he wa lked w i t h u s o n deck a n d I s howed h im our q u a r te r s ,
wh ich we r e q u i t e comfortab l e , a n i c e c ab i n , though n o
p r i vate bath , but t ha t wa s not too f a r away .
The o n l y
other two p a s senger s we r e - - wha t s e emed to u s then - - an
e lde r l y l a dy with a young boy .
They l o o ke d a b i t Au s t r i an
and my unc l e s a id ( he was a very c h arming , handsome , g r e ­
gar iou s man ) , " Sha l l I introduce y o u to t he s e peop l e ?
35
They l o o k a s i f they m i ght go to t he s ame p la c e you w i l l
go .
Sha l l I intro duc e yo u ? "
" No , no , l e t ' s be t o ge th e r . "
He didn ' t know them , o f c o u r s e .
" Le t ' s be together f o r
t he s e l a s t hour s ; i f they g o wher e w e go , I a m s u r e we ' l l
mee t them somehow . "
We l l , we met t hem the n e xt day an d
( Doe s t he n ame soun d f ami l i ar
t he i r name w a s Ge rnr e i c h .
to y ou ? )
I t wa s Rudy Gernr e i c h and h i s mo ther .
They were
The o t he r s
the o n l y p a s s e n ge r s who a l so l e f t f r om T r i e s te .
c ame o n bo a r d i n Geno a , an d we had a f u l l b o at g o i n g t o the
U n i t e d State s .
But t o j ou rn ey a r ound I t aly , a r ound t he boo t ,
And , o f
the four o f u s were the on ly p a s s enge r s on b o a r d .
c o ur s e , when everybody e l s e c ame o n i n Geno a , the four o f
u s we r e a " fami ly " a n d e verybody e l s e w a s a n o ut s i d e r .
I don ' t know whe t he r you know thi s f e e l i ng , when y o u r i de
i n a comp artme n t on a t r a i n .
I f you s t art at the s ame
s t at ion togeth e r , anybody e l s e who ente r s at a l a t e r s top
is a fore ign e r , an out s ide r .
By the t ime we had gone a round
I ta ly , we knew p r ac t ic al ly a l l of L i e s l Gernr e i c h ' s f am i l y
b e c a u s e s h e t a l k e d abo ut t hem , i n c l uding he r mo th e r , whom
she o n ly c a l l e d Lot t e r l .
We r e a l ly wa nted to meet h e r
o n e day , b e c au s e o f a l l the s t o r i e s she t o l d u s abo ut h e r .
O f c o ur s e , we d id me e t i n Lo s Ange l e s a c o up l e o f ye a r s
later .
There were s e ve r a l s t op s .
As f a r a s I r e c a l l , we s topped
in Sp l i t , i n N ap l e s , whe r e we sp ent a who l e day , and we
s topped in L i vo rno and Geno a .
I n Gen o a we s t ay e d for a day
and then two mo r e d ay s , and we went into t he c i ty an d I
bought ten k i l o s o f good I t a l i an p l a s t ic ine .
We h a d s o ­
c a l le d Bo rdge l d which wa s money w e c o u l d spend o n ly o n
board s h i p o r w e c o u l d e xchange i t fo r I t a l i an l i r e .
So
I got some I t a l i an l ir e from t h e purs e r on boa r d and I went
i n to town and bought t h i s p l a s t i c ine .
A f t e r t he s ec o n d day i n Genoa we wonde red what w a s ho l d i n g
u s up a n d the r e were a l l s o r t s o f rumo r s g o i n g aroun d .
Hi t le r s ummo n e d C hambe r l a i n to Mun ic h , war w a s go i n g to
break out , and Mus s o l i n i w a s ho l d i ng a l l s h i p s back in
I t a l y in fear that war may c ome and they wou l d b e c on f i s ­
c at e d .
Mrs . G e rnr e i c h w a s j u s t won der ful i n h e a r i n g h a l f
a s entence somep l ac e and ma k i ng a who l e story out o f i t
And s he c ame up w i th the mo s t ab surd s to r ie s .
i n her mind .
But f ina l l y , a f t e r three o r f o u r day s i n Genoa , we con ­
t inue d to Mar s e i ll e s and that w a s our l a s t European s top .
We we r e s uppo s ed to s top in B ar c e l ona , but on a c coun t o f
the c ivi l war i n Spa in we d i dn ' t .
We we n t o n to G i b r a l t a r ,
and a s long a s we were in the Me d i t e r r anean we had t h e
mo s t be aut i fu l we athe r .
T h e s e a wa s p la in a s a m i r ro r .
We had do lph i n s fo l low i ng u s and we watche d them j ump o u t
o f t h e wat e r , f o l lowing t h e boat - - de l ight f u l .
T he moment
we ente red the At lan t i c i t w a s sto rmy and big wave s rocked
the s h ip .
Everybo dy , e xc ept my s e l f , two o th e r pa s s enger s
and the c r ew , wa s s e a s ic k .
Ge rtrud w a s so se a s ic k , i t wa s
not funny .
I never w a s se a s i c k in my l i fe .
Howe ve r ,
36
whenever I tr ave l l e d in rough s e a s I got extreme ly hungry ,
and I wa s one of t he f ew peop l e who we n t to the d i n i ng r oom
P o o r Rudy Ge rnre i c h ,
and ate comp l e t e me al s dur ing that t ime .
he w a s ne a r ly dy ing , h e wa s s o se a s i c k .
I t wa s ve ry
Our f ir s t s top in t he New Wo r ld wa s Cur a9ao .
inte r e s t ing and , as we found o u t , very Dutch .
The a r c h i ­
t e c ture t h e r e i s ve ry Dutc h , b u t s ince w e h a d n e ver b een
i n Ho l l and be f o r e we didn ' t know i t .
We s t ay e d in Cura 9 a o
f o r a c oup l e o f day s , and the ne xt stop wa s C r i s to ba l on
the e a s t s i de o f the Panama C an a l .
I f o un d t he p a s s age
t hrough t he c ana l very i nt e r e s t i ng , as the s hip is r a i s e d
up to the leve l o f t h e l a ke and you trave l a lo n g the l a ke ,
then y o u ' r e l owe red a ga in into the Pac i f ic .
The P ac i f ic wa s a l so a b i t rough a t t ime s .
We s topped i n
S a n S a lva do r .
I remember t he r e w a s very b a d we athe r ; we
c o u l dn ' t get i nto the harbor an d some o f our pa s senger s
were un l o aded , s ince th i s w a s a f r e ighter , i n a gondo l a
a t t a c h e d t o a c r ane and dropped into a boat .
I t w a s i nt e r ­
e s t in g t o wat c h a s w e h a d o n e C atho l ic pr i e s t amo ng the
p a s s e n ge r s who we r e d i semba r ke d in t ha t way , and I thought
i t w a s f unny t o s e e the d i gn i f i e d man dre s se d in h i s gown
dump e d into the boat .
L a t e r on we s topped in S an Jos e ,
G ua t em a la , and we went on l an d t he r e an d there i t happene d
that we spent one -twe l fth o f our wo r ldly fo rtune - - t h a t
me an s one do l l a r each - - on two be lt s w e s aw in a shop .
One w a s a snake be lt and the other wa s an a l l i ga t o r b e l t .
We c o u l dn ' t r e s i s t , t hey we r e s uc h b a r ga in s .
We spent o n e
I t h i n k t he
who l e do l l a r e a c h on s uch unn ec e s s a ry l uxury .
snake b e l t i s s t i l l he r e somewh e r e .
And then we c o n t inued
t r ave l ing nort h .
I gue s s I shoul d mention that there wa s a l it t l e c an v a s
swimmi n g poo l o n bo ard whi c h w e u s e d q u i te a b i t , e sp e c i al ly
when we got c l o s e to the equator and i t w a s very , very warm .
We a lway s dre s se d ve ry l ightly and e xt reme ly i n forma l ly
wh i le on bo ard .
And we ate too muc h , b e c a u s e an I t a l i a n
f r e i ghter s e rved fu l l me a l s , an I t a l ian dinner a t noont ime
and an I t a l i an s upper in t he eve n ing .
Both con s i s te d o f
s oup , s p a gh e t t i , or the equ i va l ent , f i s h ,
f i ve c o ur s e s :
me at , ve ge t ab l e s , potatoe s and de s s e r t .
And in t he a f te r ­
noon w e got s ome thing r e sembl i n g a n Au s t r i an Jause , wh i c h
w e a l so ate and , o f c o ur s e , a comp le t e break f a s t i n the
mo rn ing .
So when , a f t e r ne a r ly s i x we e k s o f such a d i e t ,
I f ir s t put on one o f my c i vi l i an s u i t s , I f oun d that I
c o u l dn ' t button my pan t s at t he wai s t , I ' d ga ined s o much
we i ght .
Howeve r , that didn ' t la s t long a f t e r w e arr i ve d
in Lo s Ange le s .
RB :
Wa s your c o u s in w a i t i n g f o r you ?
ON :
My c o u s i n w a s not w a i t i ng for u s .
Howeve r , h i s daughter
c ame to me e t u s , whom I had neve r met be f o r e , w i th a f r i e n d
37
He c ame along b e c au s e Mar l ie s d idn ' t
o f the f ami ly .
d r i ve , and t hey awaited u s i n S an P e dro whe n t he b o at
I t turned out that my c o u s in had a h e a r t a t ta c k
a r r i ve d .
I t w a s a very s e ve r e att a c k , and
wh i l e we w e r e t r ave l ing .
when we arr ive d he w a s s t i l l bedri dden and the progno s i s
w a s un fortunate l y not good .
A s a matter o f f a c t , we
arrived on t he 2 8 th o f October , and he d i e d on the fourth
of July the fo l l owing y e a r .
Dur ing that t ime h e b a r e ly
r ec o ve r e d enough to go t o h i s o f f i c e a c oup l e of t ime s .
H e had j u s t be gun t o get a f ootho l d w i t h h i s pro fe s s ion
h e wa s an orthop e d i c surgeon -- and when he c ame to the
Un i t e d S t at e s f rom Germ any he had to p a s s a � t ate b o ar d
e xam i n at ion .
That wa s n o t e asy becau s e h e d i d no t spe ak
Eng l i sh too f l uent ly when he c ame .
S o he had t o g o back
to s c hool an d too k a tutor to get through that .
As a
matte r o f f ac t , the f ir s t t ime he t r i e d for h i s s t ate b oa r d
e xaminat ion h e f lunk e d , and t h a t wa s ve ry di s courag ing ,
e s pec i al ly for some bo dy in h i s po s i t io n .
He w a s n o t o n l y
we l l known , but h e wa s t h e he ad o f the orthopedic dep art ­
ment at the ho sp i t a l in Mu h lhe im- Ruhr whe r e they l ived .
B ut f ina l ly he p a s s e d h i s e xami nat ion and then i t wa s a
s t r ugg l e gett ing into pr i va t e prac t i c e .
He wo rke d f i r s t
with a coup le o f doc to r s and f in a l ly , when we arr i ve d , he
had j u s t e s t ab l i shed h i s own o ff ic e in a me d i c a l b u i l d i ng
on W i l s h i r e and We s t lake , and w as j u s t beg inn i ng t o g e t
known .
And then h e h a d h i s heart a t t ac k .
H e h a d on ly
r e c e n t ly pur c h a s e d q u i t e a b i t o f equ ipment for h i s o f f i ce
wh i c h wa s not p a id for , s o they had q u i te a d i f f ic u l t t ime
when he f e l l i l l .
RB :
Wa s the r e j u s t h i s wi fe and daughte r ?
ON :
H i s w i f e and one daugh t e r , twe nty - two at the t ime .
a t age f i fty- s i x ; h e w a s ve ry youn g .
RB :
Where did you l i ve when you c ame ?
ON :
We f i r s t thoug ht we wo u l d be ab le t o l ive w i t h my c o u s i n
They
f o r the fir s t f e w we e k s , b u t that w a s impo s s i b l e .
l i ve d in a dup l e x , c on s i s t ing of two be drooms , a l i vi ng
room an d din ing room , one o f tho s e bunga l ow s on F i r s t S t r e e t
So
n e a r No rmandy ; the r e wou l d not h ave been room for u s .
wh en we ar r i ve d we rented a one - room ap artment in a n ap ar t ­
me nt hou s e o n N orman dy , j u st be l ow F i r s t S tr e e t , w i t h i n
very e asy wa l k i n g di s t ance from my c o u s in ' s .
The r e n t wa s
an outrageous fo r ty - two f i f ty per month .
RB :
A mon th ?
ON :
A mon th , ye s .
RB :
Y e s , part i c u l a r ly s i nce you had e l even do l l a r s l e f t .
L i s t en , my de ar ,
that wa s a f o rt une !
He d i e d
38
ON :
To gether we had twe nty - two do l l a r s le ft .
Fo rtunate ly , we
c o u l d bo r row some mon ey and we d i d , we had to .
And we
found out l a t e r we wou l dn ' t have t o b e t hat e x t r avagan t
b e c au s e the r e we r e s ome o n e - ro om ap artme n t s c lo s e - by t h a t
rented for t h i rty- two do l l a r s .
As a mat t e r o f f a c t , L i e s l
Gernre i c h and Rudy rented o n e o f them , j us t two b l o c k s f rom
us .
I t wa s not q ui t e as " e l e gant '' as o ur s , I a dmi t .
Our s
had a b e d t hat c o u l d b e f o lded into t he wal l , s o tha t you
We
c ou l d use the room for ent e r t a i n i n g i f you wan t e d to .
marve led at the s e apa rtme n t s w i t h everyth ing in the m , com­
p lete ly equ ipped k i tc hen , w i th s o - c al l e d s i lve rwar e , d i s he s ,
pot s and p an s an d e ve rything .
The r e n t , o f c o ur s e , had t o
be p a i d in advan ce .
I knew we c o u l d no t s t ay there very
long , e s pe c i al ly s ince o ur t h i ng s we r e s uppo s e d to be on
the way , and we wo u l d have to look for a p la c e whe r e we
c o u l d a l s o wo r k .
We l l , f o r the f i r s t few d ay s we c o u l dn ' t do very muc h and
we v i s i t e d with my s i c k c o u s i n .
We a l so acqua i n t e d o ur ­
s e lve s w i t h a t o t a l ly new envi ronment o f what we c o n s i d e r e d
a non - e xi s t e nt c i ty .
One o f the de l i gh t s was a s upermarket
t ha t wa sn ' t too far away -- i t wa s a gre at expe r i e nc e t o u s .
We a dmired in p art i c u l ar t h e produc e dep artmen t s , at t ha t
t ime run by J apan e s e .
They l oo ke d l i ke t he mo s t be aut i fu l
d i sp lay a t the f a rmer ' s market nowaday s .
Wh i le we were s t i l l t r ave l i ng , s omeone we d idn ' t even know
found o ut that we wer e coming t o Lo s Ange l e s .
And t ha t
per son knew someone whom I h a d known i n Vi e nn a , a m an abo ut
my age who l ived i n an ap artment hou s e n e xt to me in
S chm al z h o f ga s se .
He w a s acqua inte d w i th my gi r l f r ie n d o f
that t ime ( whom I me t at age f i ve when s he w a s four ) , an d
I a lway s thought we we r e somehow i n c ompe t i t io n w i t h e ac h
o t h e r ( on l y about thi rty ye a r s l a t e r when I t a l ke d t o E d i th
h e r e i n Lo s Ang e l e s whe r e we me t aga in , she to l d me she a l ­
way s love d on ly me ) .
We l l , t h i s man w a s Fe l i x We i s s who
went to the s ame Rea l sc hu l e as I d i d , but a f te rwa r d s he
wen t to the Ac ademy o f F ine Art s in V i e nn a to s tudy s c u l p t ur e ,
and h e became a very good academic s c u lptor .
After h i s
s tudio sp ace a t the a c a demy wa s once van da l i ze d bec a u s e he
w as Jew i s h , he had enough f o r e s i ght t o l e ave V i e nna q u i t e
e ar ly a n d we nt t o Londo n .
I n London , s omehow o r other , he
was lucky or p u s hy , h e s c u l pte d p r ac t ic a l ly every po l i ti c i an
o f that t ime .
S ome o f them po s e d for h im , some h e d i d f r om
pho t o gr aphs o r from memo ry , and o bviou s ly h e mu s t have had
an e xh ib i t ion once , and I under s to o d he w a s ve ry we l l pa id
I r e c a l l , whi l e we we r e s t i l l in V i e nna ,
for h i s portra i t s .
the r e w a s a b i g s to ry about Fe l i x We i s s i n one o f t he pape r s
and i t w a s a very dram at i c story about S co t l a n d Y a r d i n
London f o l lowing a l i t t l e dark h a i r e d man and o b s e r vi n g h im
b e c a u s e th at l i t t le d a r k h a i r e d man w a s s e e n f o l l owing the
king on h i s w al k s .
S co t l and Yard kept h im under o b s e rva t ion f o r we e k s , h i s movement s about London , an d then o n e d ay
when he wa s not p r e sent , they opened h i s studio and t h e r e
39
w a s - - c o ve r e d w i t h we t r ag s - - a n e a r l y c omp l e t e d b u s t o f
t he k ing .
I r emember the s to ry becau s e i t w a s s u c h a dumb
- - but ve ry dram at i c s tory , c h a t t i ly wr i t te n , and F e l i x
We i s s bec ame , o f c o ur se , a very famou s s c u lp t o r i n Au s tr i a ,
m a i n l y b e c a u s e h e didn ' t l i ve
there and w a s no t i n c o mp e ­
t i t ion w i th anybody .
And h e obvio u s ly h a d mo de l e d t h e king .
He mo d e l e d a l so other peop l e .
We l l , t h i s F e l i x We i s s w a s in the U n i t e d S t a te s , i n Lo s
Ange l e s , and t he c onne c t i o n w a s the s i s t e r o f one o f
Ge rtrud ' s
s ch o o lmat e s .
Whe n F e l i x heard that we we r e
coming t o Lo s Ange l e s , he a sk e d that we g e t in tou c h with
h im .
In the me ant ime we had l e a rne d that he t r i e d to g e t
i n t o H o l lywo o d , i n t o t he mo vie stud i o s o r some t h i ng o f that
sort .
We l l , I c a l l e d Fe l i x on the phone , and h e wa s ve ry
happy to hear f r om me , that I got out of Au s t r i a , and he
inqu i r e d whether I had s e e n h i s s i s t e r who s t i l l w a s i n
I
Vienna .
I t o l d h i m that I ' d s e e n h e r be f o r e we le f t .
a l s o t o ld h im whe r e we l i ved and g ave h im my c o u s i n ' s phone
Sure e n oug h ,
numbe r .
He promi s e d he was g o i n g to c ome .
F e l i x c ame .
He w a s about f i ve foot two o r three , s l i ght ly
ba l d i ng , but otherw i s e q u i t e hand some , and he drove a huge
Ro l l s - Royc e wh i c h he had shipped to the Un i t e d S ta t e s from
England .
And when he drove you thought the c a r w a s dr i v i ng
by i t se l f becau s e you c o u l d ha r d ly s ee h im o ve r the s t e e r i ng
whee l .
But d r i ving h i s Ro l l s - Roy c e everybody w a s duly im­
pre s se d .
Dur ing our f i r s t mee t ing he to l d me , " Oh , y o u know ,
I have to introduce you t o a do c t o r I me t some t ime ago .
He i s an amateur c e r ami s t an d he wou l d j u s t love t o me e t
yo u , and I to ld him about you , t hat you a r e such f amou s
peop l e from Austr i a - - . " " We we r e famo u s p e o p l e from Au s tr i a? !
We hadn ' t ac c omp li she d any t h i ng yet , we j u s t e sc ap e d , and we
had only one e xh i b i t io n there wi th one l i tt le w r i t e -up in the
I t o l d h im
p ape r .
We don ' t know anyth ing . "
" Never mind .
He ' s an
you a re qu ite f amou s and he wan t s to mee t you .
I ta l i an and he ' s mar r i e d to an Ame r i c an , and he ha s a wor k ­
s hop i n h i s garage , an d they a r e v e r y n ic e peop l e and they
wou l d love to mee t you . "
I wa s a b i t dub i o u s about t he
who le thing , but he i n s i s te d that we go w i th him .
S o we wen t there and we me t Doctor S a l v at o r e Monaco and h i s
wi fe Ma ry .
S inc e we j u s t had a r r i ved and had t rave l e d on an
I t a l i an boat for s i x we e k s , whe r e I prac t ic ed my I t a l i an
w i th the crew , my I t a l i an was con s ide r ab ly mo r e f lu e n t than
my Eng l i s h .
I the r e f o r e t r i e d to s p e ak I t a l i an w i th h i m ,
a n d h e w a s de l ighted a t t he sound o f h i s nat ive to n gu e .
He embr a c e d me , " Ot to , wha t e ve r you s e e he r e i s your s .
Loo k , h e r e i s a ki ln , here i s a whe e l , you have every th i ng ,
I h ave my p r a c t i c e but
you c an do whatever you l i ke here .
I come home in the evenin g , I hope you wi l l be he r e in t he
even ing when I c ome and we ' l l d i sc u s s thing s , buon g io rno
and s a lute ! "
He w a s so h appy to s e e somebo dy from the o l d
country , and e spec i a l ly someone who al so spoke h i s l a n g u ag e ;
and I loved to spe ak I ta l i an b e c a u s e my Eng l i sh w a s e ve n
40
mo r e atroc iou s .
Dr . Mona c o me ant what h e s aid .
He was a
He l i ved
very w arm human be i ng and h e t r i e d to he l p u s .
i n o n e o f tho s e big o ld man s ion s on Adams B o u l e va r d which
a t the t ime was qui t e comfo r t ab l e , though not a s fa s hi o n ­
ab l e a s o n c e upon a t ime .
T h e garag e s w e r e be l ow t he hou s e
in a c ourtyard .
The r e w e r e four gar age s , two o f wh i c h h e
u s e d fo r h i s workshop and t h e o t h e r two were f o r c a r s .
The wo r k s hop was q u i te we l l equippe d , exc ept t h a t i t had
wha t Gertrud c a l l e d " the inven t ion o f the devi l , " a s o ­
c a l le d s ewing-mac h ine -whee l .
They we r e q u i te c ommon at
that t ime .
They we r e po tte r s whe e l s made by a dapt ing o l d
s ewing mac h ine s .
I t me ant that the t r e ad l e s w e r e u s ed t o
t u r n the whee l .
The t roub l e wa s that you had to t r e a d l e
a l l t h e t ime and y o u c o u l dn ' t c o n c e n t r a t e on t h e do i ng s o f
your h and s .
And Gertru �
who w a s adve r t i se d by F e l i x We i s s
a s the gre at expert , t r ie d t o t hrow o n th i s whee l and had
gre a t d i ff i c u lty .
But f ina l ly she m a s te r e d i t an d c o u l d
mak e a f ew sma l l pot s o n i t .
S h e ob j e c t e d al so t o a b a r
t ha t w a s at t ac h e d t o t h i s c o n t r apt ion o n wh i c h you we r e
suppo s e d to r e s t your a rm s in order to keep them s t e ady .
Thi s i nt er fe r e d w i th her way o f mo ving them free ly whe n
s h e c r e at e d .
I t w a s r e a l l y inh i b i t i n g he r .
B ut , none the ­
l e s s , Dr . Mon ac o w a s q u i te impr e s s e d .
I t o l d h im t ha t I
wou l d l i ke t o t ry out va r i o u s c l ay s and s e e how they wor k
wi th s ome o f my g l a z e s , s o when our equ ipment a r r i ve s I
wou l d not have to go through a l l t h i s - - i t wou l d s ave me
that much t ime .
I d i d no t know when our equ ipme n t w a s g o i n g
t o c ome , i t might b e a month o r two o r three , i t d e p e nde d on
the Germ an s and the i r bo a t s and how long they t o o k t o g e t
here .
S o he s a i d , " We 11 , you f e e l a t home , you c a n c ome at
s i x in the mo rn ing i f you w an t and you c a n s t ay unt i l m i d ­
n i ght o r longer - - come whenever y o u want . "
We l l , h e w a s
r e a l l y gone a l l day , and he h ad an a c q u a i n t anc e t h e r e who
a l so u se d h i s wo r k s hop , a woman by the name o f E s th e r
S h irey w h o wa s from the Midwe s t and l i ve d i n Lo s Ange l e s .
She w a s a d i vo r c e e and had a s i xt e e n -ye ar - o l d d augh t e r .
A
very love ly per son , and she u s e d the wo r k s hop f rom t ime to
t ime bec a u s e bo th she and Dr . Monaco had s t u d i e d w i th G l en
Luken s , whe r e they h a d met .
I t h i n k s he s h a r e d t he e x­
p e n s e s o f the wo r k shop wi th h im .
E s ther w a s an e xtr eme ly l ove ly p e r s o n and very h e l p fu l t o
both o f u s .
She we nt o ut o f her way t o p i c k u s up at
N ormandy where we l i ve d , and dro ve u s a l l the w ay down to
Adams whenever we wan t e d to , and then took us ba c k h ome .
S he l i ve d somewh e r e in betwe e n , on N orton S tree t .
She w a s
o ur f i r s t r e al f r i e nd i n t h i s coun t ry .
I e sp ec i a l ly w a s
very happy to be w i th some bo dy who d idn ' t o b j e c t to my
t e r r i b l e E n g l i sh and who eve ry once in a wh i l e e ven c o r ­
r e c t e d my mi s t ake s .
O f c o ur s e , we to ld the Mon ac o s and
E s th e r mor e or l e s s our who l e r e c e n t h i s to ry , and we found
t hat peop l e were e xtreme ly n i c e to r e fug e e s at the t ime .
There were not too many o f them around yet , and so e very­
body wa s p r ac t ic a l ly treated l i ke a k ing .
41
Within l e s s t han a mon t h we got a no t ic e that our t h i n g s
w e r e on the w ay and t h e bo a t w a s go ing t o a r r i ve , I t h i nk ,
on the 1 5 th o r 1 6 th o f Decembe r .
S o E s th e r Sh irey s ai d ,
" We l l , we ' l l have t o put them s omep l ac e , " and we s ai d ,
" O f c o ur s e , we ' l l have to put them somep l ac e ; I t h i n k we ' l l
have to l o o k f o r mo re permanent l iving quarter s .
What I
wou l d l i ke to f i nd i s someth ing whe r e we c an l ive an d wo r k . "
Not kn owing any t hing about L o s Ange l e s z o n i n g r e gu l at ion s
o r r e s t r i c t ion s , i t d i dn ' t o c c ur to me e ven to a s k .
So
E s th e r s a id , " We l l , t h e r e ' s o n ly o n e th i ng to do , we ' l l
j u s t d r i ve around and s e e where we f i n d s ome t h i ng t h a t ' s
for r e nt , " and there we r e lot s o f s i gn s a l l over town o f
hous e s for rent , apartment s for r e n t .
One day , a f t e r hav i ng
l o o ke d at var ious p la c e s that we r e n o t s u i t ab l e at a l l , we
s aw a very n i c e hou s e betwe en Wa s h ington and V e n i c e Bou l e ­
var d , on S t . Andrews P l a c e , w i th a s ign , " Dup l ex f o r Rent . "
We went in an d t a l ke d to a m an d re s s e d in a shor t - s leeved
s h i r t , pa int - sp o t t e d , with a p a in t bru s h i n h i s hand .
I
t hought f ir s t that h e w a s a wo r km an and I s a id , " We are
inter e s t e d , c o u l d we t a lk to t he l and lord or manage r ? "
He
s a id , " I ' m the owner o f t he hou s e , " and , in a way , I l i ke d
the man imme d i ate l y , at f i r s t s i ght .
When he showed u s the
p l ac e we to ld h im we we r e intere s te d , tho ugh h e c o u l d t e l l
imme d i at e ly , that we were not nat ive Amer i c an s .
( To th i s
day I do not know why I f e l t c ompe l le d to s tr e s s that po i nt . )
I a dmi r e d h im for b e i n g so tru s t i ng , b e c a u s e h e s a i d , " Y e s ,
I
I wi l l rent i t to you f o r forty- f ive do l l ar s a month . "
t hought , forty - f i ve do l l a r s - - i t w a s un furn i shed , o f cour s e
- - and b e fore I c o u l d s ay ye s o r no , h e a s ke d , " H ow many
peop l e a re there g o i n g to be ? "
I s a id , " We l l , t h e r e ' s j u s t
t he two o f u s , w e have n o c h i ldren . "
" We l l , then i t ' s forty
do l la r s . "
So we d idn ' t he s i t at e , we s a id , " Al l r i ght , f i ne ,
we wou l d l i ke to rent i t a f t e r t he twe nt i e t h o f the mon t h , "
" Be c a u s e our t h i n g s
and he s a id , " No , t hat you c an ' t do . "
are not going to arr ive un t i l the f i ft e e n th , a n d I don ' t
It
know how long i t w i l l t a ke to get them out o f c u s toms . "
was the b e g inn ing o f Dec embe r and f ina l ly we s e t t l e d o n the
tenth .
All r i ght .
We made a payme nt o f one month i n a d ­
Y e s , we d i d t e l l h im that we w an t e d
vanc e , a n d t h a t w a s it .
t o wo r k there a n d t r i e d to d e s c r ibe what w e d i d or what we
intended to do .
The r e a s o n why we l i ked t he p la c e w a s ,
numbe r one , we l i ke d the ext e r i o r o f the hou s e , a " Normandy
s tyl e " hou s e that w a s comp le t e ly v i ne c overed , i t w a s i d e a l .
There we r e two be d rooms up s t ai r s , down s t air s w a s a med i um
s i z e d l i ving room , a f a ir ly l a rge d i n i ng room o n the other
s ide o f t he entrance h a l l , and ad j o ining i t a ve ry l on g ,
narrow k i tchen w i th a b r e ak f a s t noo k and ad j o i n i ng the
k i tchen , a ve ry large back porch wh i c h had nothing i n it
bu t a s ink , and we thought i t wo u l d be an ide a l p l a c e to
wo r k .
We to l d our l an d l or d that w e wo u l d l ike t o w o r k w i th
c l ay there and that I might a l s o do s ome wor k in one room
He s aid , " That ' s
o f t he hou s e , but it wou l d be c l ean wo rk .
a l l r i ght . " And he vo l un te e r e d :
" We l l , i f you wan t t o wor k
here o n the back porch , you know what I ' l l do , I ' l l put in
42
I t was j u s t a s c r e e n e d porc h .
I thought s c re e n s
w indows . "
wou l d b e su f f i c ient , but I didn ' t r e a l i ze that i t wo u l d get
c o ld a l s o , t hat a ft e r we wou l d ac c l imat i z e we wou l d fee l the
cold .
At any rate , he did put the wi ndow s in , w i thout b e ing
That w a s the k i nd o f man he w a s .
H i s w i fe w a s a l so
a s ke d .
very love ly ; t hey h a d a t e en a g e daughter , l a t e teenag e , and
a son o f a bo u t twen ty .
RB :
Wha t wa s the numb e r on S t . Andrew s ?
ON :
I t w a s 1 8 3 5 S o uth S t . Andrews P l ac e , b e twe e n W a sh i ng t o n and
Ve n i c e .
Ther e was s t i l l q uite a b it o f open space t h e r e ,
t hough t h e r e were hou s e s acro s s t he s tr e e t from u s .
A l so ,
the s t re e t s there were q u i t e wide , un commo n ly wide , f o r
even Lo s An ge l e s ; t hey w e r e l i ke bou l evar d s .
I t wa s a conve n i e n t p la c e for
We d i d not have a c ar then .
us to l i ve bec au s e there was the "ye l low" s tr e e t c ar go ing
on W a s hington Bou l evard and the " re d " c ar on Ve n i c e B o u l e ­
var d , and w e c o u l d u s e e i t he r one .
Mo s t o f t he time I u s e d
t he ye l l ow c ar becau s e t h e f a r e wa s s e ven c e nt s , wh i le the
red car w as te n c e n t s , and bo t h took you to p r a c t i c a l ly t he
s ame d e s t inat i on .
At any r ate , we rented t he p l a c e an d our t h i n g s ar r i ve d a
b i t l at e , s o we had to p ay doub l e rent f o r a wh i l e , w h i c h
As soon a s o ur
wa s h a r d o n our budge t , but w e had to .
t hing s got here , they we r e un l o aded from the s h ip an d we
go t our f ir s t shoc k .
E verything wa s f ine , e x c e p t t hey
wo u l d not de l i ve r un l e s s we paid fo r the tran s po r t at io n
f rom t h e harbor to S t . Andrews P l a c e w i t h a c a s h i e r ' s c he c k .
I knew we s igned a c o n t r a c t i n Vienna for del ive ry h o u s e ­
to -hou se .
They a l so kn ew abo u t i t , " But the Ge rm an s have
been very s low in p ay i ng and one did not know what ' s g o i ng
They may n e ve r p ay
to happen , war may b r e ak out any t ime .
us .
E i ther pay o r f o r ge t about i t . "
S o we h a d to approach
some bo dy e l se .
I t w a s some s i xty - f i ve o r s i xty - s i x do l l a r s .
You ' re smi l ing , but at the t ime i t w a s a f o rtune , e s pec i a l ly
We c o u l d comfort a b ly l i ve
for u s , for we did not have i t .
for a mon t h - - o ur monthly g ro c e ry b i l l amount e d to between
s e ve n t een and twe nty - three do l l a r s , dep e n d i ng on the s e a s o n .
I have to a dmit that we d i d much o f our g r o c e ry shop­
Yes .
p ing at the Gr and Centra l Ma r ke t on Hi l l and T h i r d S t re e t in
Los Ange l e s where you coul d buy vegetab l e s an d f r u i t , t he
f r e s h e s t veg e t ab l e s and mo s t de l i c io u s fru i t f o r ha l f the
p r i c e you wou l d p ay in a normal supe rmar ke t .
We p a i d f ive
cent s for a do z en j u i c e o r an ge s at the supe rmarke t ; we c o u l d
g e t two do z e n j u i c e o r ange s a t the Grand Centr a l Ma rket f o r
a n ick e l .
I a lw ay s t e l l G a i l when s he c ome s home w i th
g r ape s c o s t ing a do l l a r o r mo r e a pound that I p a id o n e
d ime for s even poun d s o f t he mo s t de l i c io u s mu s c at g r ap e s .
I a dmit i t wa s a S aturday a f t e rnoon and a t the Gr and C e n t ra l
Ma r ke t t hey wanted to g e t r i d o f every t h i n g b e f o r e c l o s i ng
You coul d al so buy one day o l d b r e a d at
for the wee kend .
43
t he Gr and C e n t r a l Market for h a l f p r i c e .
S o that ' s what
we d i d .
I spent u s ua l ly one a f te rnoon a we e k and went to
t he Grand C e n t ra l Market to g e t groc e r i e s for t he wee k .
I took three do l l ar s with me , o f whic h I sp e nt fourteen
c e n t s for the f a r e , and t hen I bo ugh t g ro c e r ie s and me at
and br e a d and f r u i t for a we e k , and u sua l ly c ame back
w i th s ome change from three do l l a r s .
RB :
Whe r e did you ge t the s i xty - f i ve do l l a r s to unload the
h o u s eho l d good s ?
ON :
From my c o u s in .
He s ome how managed t o g i ve u s some money .
A l together we got about $ 7 0 0 into debt b e f o r e we s t ar t e d
p ay ing b a c k .
RB :
S o you got your ho u s eho l d g o o d s on S t . Andrews P l a c e ?
ON :
Y e s , an d that inc luded t he equipmen t o f our wo r kshop .
We conne c ted the k i l n , and we s e t up t he wo r k shop and ,
on the 1 0 th o f Janu ary , 1 9 3 9 , I had my f i r s t f ir ing in
I t w a s a b i sque f ir e b e c a u s e Ge rt rud had
Lo s Ange l e s .
a l r ea dy done a c o n s i de r ab l e amo un t of wo r k a t Dr . Mon a c o ' s
wh i c h we d i d not f i r e there .
I t took a wh i le t o g e t
e l e c t r ic i ty f o r the k i ln a f t e r i t wa s conne c te d .
After the e l ec tr i c i an h a d done
Then c ame a f unny e p i sode .
The
h i s wo rk he had to a s k the c i ty i ns p e c t o r to O . K . i t .
c i ty i n s p e c t o r c ame and he s a i d to u s , " Th i s i s your hobby ,
i sn ' t i t ? " And I s a id , " No , we wan t t o make a l iving , t h i s
i s our pro f e s s ion . "
But h e i n s i s t e d , " No , that ' s y o ur
hobby , " and we s aid , " No , we w ant to s e l l t he se th ing s . "
" We l l , you have to g o downtown .
Don ' t t e l l t hem that you
want to s e l l the se t h i n g s , te l l them i t ' s your hobby ,
He had to t e l l me ,
t hat ' s your hobby , i t ' s o n l y a ho bby . "
bec a u s e i f we h a d to l d them , zon ing r e gu l a t io n s wou l d have
I t hought i f I
proh i b i t e d the i n s t al lat ion o f the ki ln .
a s ke d the land l o r d i t wa s e nough .
I w a s to ld i t wa s n ' t .
S o when I had to s i gn f o r t he s e rvice , I s igned that i t
a l l wa s a hobby .
Wh i c h i t wa s , a f t e r a l l .
The r e i s a
s eque l to th i s , though nothing h appened a s long a s we l i ve d
o n S t . Andrews P l a c e .
E s th e r S h i rey was ve ry f a i t h f u l , s he c ame e ve ry day to s e e
what w a s new .
She w a s r e a l l y inter e s te d in what we we re
do ing an d , o f c o ur s e , .whe n Gertrud got her own whe e l she
c o u l d demo n s trate on a too l she wa s used to .
Even at that
t ime her c ontro l over the c lay was remar kab l e and e ve rybo dy
admi red her t hrow i ng .
G r a dua l ly , peop l e inq u i r e d about u s , how c ome , I r e a l ly
Dr . Mon a c o mu s t have h ad some f r i e nd s .
Al so
don ' t know .
F e l i x We i s s gave u s " advice , " a n d I rec a ll o n e o f t h e f ir s t
th ing s he s a id , " Whene ve r you are invi ted by s omeone , r e ­
g a r d l e s s whether you l i ke the per son o r not , a c c ept the
44
i nv i t at ion , you ' l l never know whom you may me e t there .
Ju s t a c c e p t t he invit at ion .
And my s ec o n d adv i c e to y o u
i s , w hene ver y o u ' re invited to peop l e , don ' t sp e ak Ge rman ,
Even i f
peop l e don ' t l i ke i t , t hey c an ' t under s t an d i t .
your Engl i s h i s ve ry bad , s p e ak Engl i sh .
Don ' t s p e a k Ge rman ,
even amo n g yours e l ves . "
The s e we r e the two p i e c e s o f a d ­
v i c e h e g ave u s .
So any i nvi t a t io n we got we a c ce p t ed .
We took h i s a dvic e
s e r io u s ly a n d i t didn ' t hurt u s any e ithe r .
A l so , i t bro ught
u s i n contact w i t h peop l e and we lea rne d the l anguage muc h
f a s te r than t he p e o p l e i n N e w York who t r i e d t o s t ay amon g
them s e lve s and w h o n e v e r l ea rned the l anguage a t a l l .
Our wo r k progr e s s e d we l l , but g r a du a l l y we h a d to think o f
an out let f o r our p r o duc t io n .
Then s omeone to l d u s he knew
o f a ve ry i n te r e s t i ng s hop on W i l sh i r e Boulevard and he
b e l i e ve d it wa s run by an Au s tr i an a r c h i t e c t an d I shou l d
I t t ur ne d out to b e Paul Frank e l who w a s an
g o the r e .
a r c h i t e c t and de s i gner and had a shop on Wi l sh i re Boul evard
whe r e he d e s igned inte r i o r s and e xh ib i t e d h i s f urn iture .
H e wa s typ i c a l ly Vi enne s e .
When w e we r e introduced t o h im
o ve r the te lephon e , he s a i d , " We l l , why don ' t y o u come and
s how me wh at y o u ' re d o i ng , " s o one day I c a l l e d h im to mak e
a n appo intment .
I p a c k e d two b a g s with pot s and went o n t he
He g r e e t e d me and s a id ,
s t r e e t c ar t o W i l s h i r e Bo u l e va rd .
" We l l , why don ' t you unp a c k h e re , " and back he went into
his o f f ic e and d i s appeared .
I unp ac ke d , s e t the t hing s o ut
o n the tab l e , and a f t e r a whi l e he c ame ba ck , l o o ke d at t h e
d i sp l ay wi thout ut t e r ing one word , l o o k e d a t them s ome mo r e ,
Then
p ic ke d up one o r the oth e r p i e c e - - s t i l l n o wo r d .
a ft e r a wh i le , a f te r h e h a d l o o ke d at four o r f i ve p ie c e s
w i thout s a y i n g anything , h e f in a l l y s ai d , " The s e t h i n g s are
b e a ut i ful , t hey ' r e r e a l ly b e a ut i fu l , t hey ' re very beaut i f ul .
( Lo n g p au s e . )
But I c an t e l l you one t h i n g :
you c an ' t s e l l
t h a t s t u ff , i t ' s impo s s ib l e . "
I s a id , " What d o y o u me an ? "
" Yo u c an ' t s e l l i t .
Peop l e don ' t un de r s t and th i s .
They
But t hey a r e very b e a ut i ful , very
wou ldn ' t know what it i s .
beaut i fu l . "
Then he p i c ke d up one bow l .
" I t e l l you wha t .
I wou l d l i ke to b uy t h i s thing f o r my s e l f .
How much i s i t ?
Who l e s a l e ! "
I s a i d $ 6 . 2 5 who le s al e .
S o h e wro te a c h e c k
I w a s fur ious , I w a s r e al l y
for $ 6 . 2 5 a n d kep t t h e p i e c e .
I tr i e d to te l l him , " Lo ok , your f ur n i tu r e i s
fur io u s .
quite beaut i fu l , " ( I c o u l dn ' t s ay i t wa s very b e a u t i ful )
but i t w a s q u i te beauti f u l , i t wa s mo dern furn i t ur e , s imp l e ,
and a f t e r a l l y o u have t h i s b i g shop , you mu s t s e l l s ome ­
thing . "
" Y e s , i t ' s d i f f i c u l t enough .
But l i s t e n , I c an ' t
( At that
educ ate one hundred thirty mi l l ion Ame r ic an s . "
t ime that was the app ro ximate popu l a t ion o f the Un i t e d
I p e r sona l ly f e l t he wou l dn ' t have t o e duc a t e a l l
S ta t e s . )
o f them .
I p a c k e d al l t he o t h e r twe nty ­
At any rate , that wa s i t .
f i ve o r t h i r ty p ie c e s I had w i t h me an d t r i e d t o g e t them
45
b a c k into my two ba g s an d went home .
I w a s very d i s c o u r a ge d .
I to l d Gertrud
abo u t my e xpe r i e nc e , and she wa s a l s o a
l i tt l e up s e t .
She d i dn ' t s ho w i t , " We ll , s ome body e l s e wi l l
a c t d i f f er en t ly . "
Abo u t two d ay s l ate r the r e wa s a t e l ephone c a l l , Mr . Fran ke l
- - Mr . Fr anke l ' s s e c r e t ary r a t he r , " Mr . F r an k e l want s to
t a lk t o you . " A f t e r a whi l e Mr . Frank e l c ame on the l ine ,
" Ja , Mr . N at z le r , we h ave a c o c kt a i l party t h i s a ft e rnoon .
He s aw your p i e c e ye s t e r ­
The r e ' s a man here f r om N ew Y o r k .
Wou l d you l i ke
d ay , a n d h e s a id h e wou ld l i ke t o mee t you .
t o c ome o ve r to the c o c kt a i l p arty ? "
We l l , fo l low i n g
F e l i x ' s advic e o f n e ve r r e f u s ing a n invi t at i o n , I r e p l i e d ,
" Y e s , we ' l l b e there . "
" Fi ve o ' c lo c k .
I t w i l l b e f rom
f i ve to s e ven . "
G e r t r ud w a s a b it ne r vo u s be c a u s e s h e
d i dn ' t know what to we ar to a c o c k t a i l part y .
W e had n e ve r
b e e n t o a c o ckta i l p arty b e fore , wha t i s a c o c k t a i l p arty
anyway ?
There had to be a f ir s t , so t h i s was our f ir s t
c o c k t a i l p a rty .
We a dmired the c e l ery and c r e am c he e s e
I t w a s the o n e
comb inat ion very much , i t t as t e d very good .
t h i ng that impre s s ed me , a s far a s fo o d w a s c o n ce rne d .
The r e we r e quite a f ew peop l e t h e r e .
The man f rom N ew Y o r k
wa s there , a Mr . Aue r b a c h who wa s t he e d it o r o f a t ra d e
maga z in e in N e w York .
W e m e t h im an d h e s aid h e w a s i n ­
t e r e s te d in our wor k and h e wo u l d l i ke t o s ee mo r e o f i t .
He c ame to s e e u s on a s u b s e quent t r ip to the We s t C o a s t
and gave u s a f ew l ine s and some photograph s i n h i s m ag a z i ne .
But t hat wa s muc h later .
Howeve r , anothe r p e r s o n we met the r e wa s Arthur Mi l l ie r , who
When
at the t ime was art c r i t i c o f the Lo s Ange l e s T i me s .
we me t him h e was a very p l e a s ant young man .
He w a s a b i t
o lder than w e were , m aybe t e n ye a r s o lder , and h e s a i d ,
" Y o u know , I ' ve he ard o f you .
S ome body ment ioned your name
before .
I ' m inte r e s t ed in what you ' re do ing .
Why don ' t you
g i ve me a c a l l a t the T � me � .
I wo u l d l i ke to c ome o ve r and
s e e wha t you do . "
For a f ew day s we deba t e d who shou l d c a l l Ar thur Mi l l ie r .
The t e lephone was alway s a f o r e ign o b j e c t to me , even i n
V i e nna , b ut h e r e even mo r e s o bec a u s e ha l f o f the t ime I
d i dn ' t un der s t an d p eo p l e ove r t he t e l ephone .
( Ar t hu r thought
they c o u l dn ' t unde r s t an d me .
He wa s pro bab l y n ot very f a r
off . )
F i n a l l y Gertrud c al l ed h im .
He r Eng l i s h h a d a lway s
I don ' t know why , but I th ink women
been b e t t e r t han mine .
l e a rn a l anguage f a s te r than men .
S he c a l l e d M i l l i e r and
h e s a id , " Y e s , I ' l l c ome on s uc h and such day , w i t h i n t he
ne xt f ew day s . "
And sure enough , h e c ame , and I e xp e c t ed
h im t o s t ay maybe f ive o r ten minut e s , look at our c e r amic s
and l eave .
We l l , he s t ay e d for two hour s .
We t a l k e d abo u t
a l l sor t s o f thing s , V i e nn a , and unde r what c ir c ums t an c e s
we le f t .
Then he looked at a l l the pi e c e s we h a d made s o
far a n d s ome o f the one s w e had b rought from V i e nn a .
The r e
wa s o n e i n p ar t i c u l a r h e l iked ve ry muc h .
F i na l ly , h e s a i d ,
46
" Yo u know , I ' m go ing t o wr i te a l i tt le s to ry , but t he
w r i t t e n wor d n e ve r mea n s anythi n g t o p e o p l e , e s pec i al ly
out h e r e .
I ' l l send a photogr aphe r over t omo r row and he
s ho u l d t ak e s ome p i c ture s . "
At ten o ' c lo c k the next
mo r n i n g the pho t o g r apher c ame and he s t a r t e d s hoot ing .
I thought he wa s c r a zy to s hoot so many p ic tu r e s .
Gertrud
throw i n g a t the whee l and I do i ng s ome mode l in g , and h e
s a id , " N o , you c an ' t d o i t t h i s way , why don ' t y o u p u t your
hand a l i tt l e b i t o ve r th i s way ? "
I t was a comp let e ly
tw i s t e d po s i t i o n , I t hought , nobody c o u l d wo r k in that way .
Nonethe le s s h e took p i c t u re s .
Late in t he a f t ernoon o f the
s ame day Art hur M i l l ie r c a l l e d .
" Why don ' t y o u go t o the
n e xt paper s t an d and g e t your s e l f a paper b e c au s e my s tory
is i n ton ight and you ne ve r know , i t m ay b e out b e f o r e t he
mo rn i n g e d i t ion . "
S o we went to the s t an d and bought one
c opy -- the T ime s w a s f i ve c en t s a copy - - an d then we bo th
we r e comp l e te l y f l o o r e d .
On the f i r s t p ag e of the s ec o n d
p art t h e r e we r e four o r f i ve p ictu r e s .
( I have i t , I c an
s how i t to you , i f you wan t . )
And a l o ve ly s t o ry , typ ic a l ly
Art hur M i l l ie r , q u i t e c hatty and n o t r e a l ly g e t t ing into art ,
We went ba c k to the paper
but rather into the human ang l e .
s t and and got a c oup le mo r e c op i e s to s e n d to r e l a t i ve s .
We t ho ught they s hou l d know tha t we ha d be come " f amou s "
o vern i ght i n L o s Ange l e s .
And that w a s the e n d unti l next
mo r n i ng when , a t s even t h i r ty o r s o , t he r e was a kno c k at
the doo r an d o ut s i de was our lan d l or d .
" D i d you see t h i s ?
D i d you s e e th i s ?
I f you k i d s had c ommi t t e d mur de r , you
c o u l dn ' t have had mo r e pub l ic i ty ! "
He wa s very imp r e s se d
about the s to ry , and we we r e happy too that i t w a s s t i ll
i n the mo r n i ng e d i t ion , in the s ame s po t , the f i r s t p age o f
the s e c ond p a r t .
The s to ry produc e d a few t e lephone c a l l s and a f ew l e t t e r s ,
and the c a l l s a s we l l a s t he le t t e r s we r e qu i t e inte r e s t i ng .
Not a l l o f them we r e f r iendly - - there we r e a c o up le wh i c h
c ame qui t e o bvio u s ly f r om N a z i s .
A s a mat t e r o f f a c t , we
h a d some bo dy c a l l on u s who wa s c e r t ai n ly a Ge rman spy .
He
acted very f r iendly at the t ime , s o muc h so that we i nv i t e d
h im once , w i t h some other Au s tr i an s w e knew , f o r a f t e r s up ­
per .
They al l c ame o ve r , and t he se other Au s t r i an s whom we
met here ( an d who , by the way , wer e not e ve n Jew i sh ) , and
ha d l i ve d in Lo s Ang e l e s for s e ve r a l ye a r s .
He w a s a c hemi ­
c al engineer an d h i s wi fe was very b e a u t i fu l , she l o o k e d a
l i tt le b i t l i ke Gre t a Garbo .
They both we r e t a l l a n d ve ry
love ly peop le .
The m an whom we me t through Mi l l ie r ' s art ic l e
c ame with h i s wi fe , and the two Au s tr i an c oup l e s got into a
f er o c i o u s ve r ba l f i gh t .
I thought
I t was mai n ly po l i t i c a l .
t hey were go ing t o s ho o t e ac h other .
At the t ime they w e r e
h e r e a thunder s to rm broke l o o s e .
I n a w ay t h at was fortun a t e
and a fter t h e Na z i s p y l e f t - - ( I ' m convinced t h a t h e wa s a
N a z i spy ) - - the o th e r peo p le s t i l l s t ay e d and I s a i d , " Le t ' s
b l ame it a l l on the thunde r s torm . "
47
The r e were o ther peop l e who conta c t e d u s then .
We r e c e i ve d
a l e t t e r f r om Jul i a von Pr e i s s ig ( a very Ge rman sounding
n ame ) who wro t e that she s aw the s to r y i n the paper and s he
I called ,
wo u l d l ike t o me e t u s and s e e what we we r e do ing .
even t hough I w a s s u s p i c iou s , m a i n ly on account o f that
t e r r ibly Ge rman s oun ding n ame .
We l l , it tur n e d out that
she wa s mar r i e d to someone who g o t tha t name th rough h i s
There we r e
fo s te r p arent s , and they we re a love ly fami ly .
thr e e s i s t e r s , but o n l y Ju l i a w a s marr i e d .
A l l three o f
them we r e q u i t e beau t i fu l .
They c ame w i t h the i r mo t he r who
was a t iny , f r ag i l e woman w i t h a s l i g ht hun c hb ac k , but w i th
They
a very s e n s i t ive f a c e , and we h i t i t o f f r ight away .
a l l s eemed q u i t e inter e s t e d in our wor k , or at l e as t they
a c t e d i n t e r e s ted .
I found out that they we r e s e r iou s l y i n ­
te r e s ted be c au s e they w e r e i nter e s ted in e ve ryth ing wo r th ­
wh i l e .
They c o l l e c t e d gems and f l ow e r s and butter f l i e s
among other t hing s , a l so some cr a ft s .
The mo the r bought
imme d i at e ly a p i ec e s he l i ke d , and I apo logi z e d , " Th i s i s
one o f the mor e e xpen s i ve p i e ce s , " though i t w a s q u i te sma l l ,
i t was two do l l a r s an d f i fty c e nt s , o r s ome t h i ng l i ke th�t .
They l i ve d
And o ne o f the daughte r s bought another thing .
somewhe r e in t h e F a ir fax d i s t r ic t , and i t turne d out that
they we r e Jew i s h , in spite of the very Ge rman s o un d ing n ame ,
and they inv i t e d u s o ve r to t he ir h o u s e .
I t was dur i ng s ome
ho l iday s , e i ther C hr i stma s , or E a s t e r , and Ju l ia s a i d , " Why
don ' t you b r ing your vio l i n a long ? "
So I d i d .
There we r e
s ome peo p l e there who were mu s i c i an s an d t he next t h i ng wa s
we s at down and p l aye d .
I t w a s the b e g inn ing o f f e e l ing
a c c e p t e d in th i s s t r ange t own , and I f e lt a t home .
At that f ir s t mu s ic a l party we met a coup l e w i t h whom we
bec ame q u i te i n t imat e ly acqua inted l a t e r on , George S h o c h a t
They had j u s t r e tur n e d from the i r
and h i s young w i fe , Fern .
honeymoon t r i p in Europe and they love d s e e i ng E urope an s
aga in .
George p l ayed t he vio la , and v i o l a p laye r s are a l ­
way s d i f f i c u lt t o f i nd for s t r i ng qua r te t s , s o the two o f
u s be c ame f r i e nd s .
And t he n George s a id he w an t e d to t ak e
l e s so n s from u s i n c e r am i c s .
H e b e c ame o u r f i r s t s tudent ,
and we we r e ve ry happy abo u t i t for mo r e t han one r e a s on .
He c ame twi c e a we e k and p aid two do l la r s an a ft ernoon f o r
h i s l e s son .
They we r e pr ivate l e s so n s .
F i r s t he worked
with G e r t r ud on the whee l and then h e wo rked w i th me on
gla z e s .
Fortunate ly h e knew a b i t o f c h emi s try , s o i t w a s
n o t t o o d i f f ic u l t to c onve r s e w i t h h im .
H e wa s a t e a c h e r ,
a mu s i c te ac her to be e xa c t , and he spoke very good E ng l i s h
and d i d not he s i t ate to c o r r e c t u s .
A l so , he w an t e d e ve ry ­
" Why i s th i s so ?
Don ' t j ump , don ' t j ump ,
t hing ana ly z e d :
So I had to an a ly z e my
why do you do th i s an d then t hi s ? "
thought s and G e r t rud e ven mo r e s o be c a u s e she wo u l d j u s t
s ay , " We l l , j u s t s i t down and d o wha t I do . "
" Now , why do
I do t h i s ?
Where do I pre s s mo r e , o ut s ide or i n s ide ? "
Gertrud did i t a l l i n s t in c t i ve ly , she ne ve r gave i t a
thought , so she had to ana ly z e he r movement s and ac t io n s
i n o rder t o te ac h h im .
I t wa s ve ry good for both o f u s .
48
So w e s aw Geo r ge twi c e a we ek for l e s s o n s an d then more and
mor e fo r ch amber music.
One o f our fi r s t gro up s was w i t h Mrs . Dione N e u t r a a s a
cellist .
S he was the wi fe o f the a r c h i t ec t , R i c h a r d N e ut r a .
I r emembe r her a s a lway s very n i c e and loving and swee t ;
h e wa s a l way s a b i t a l o o f , i f not a r rogant at t ime s .
And
I
I did some th i ng t er r ib l e wh i c h r e a l ly f r i gh t e n e d h i m .
t h i nk i t wa s during o ur s ec o n d vi s i t that I t o l d h im t hat
we were r e lat i ve s .
R i c hard Neu t r a grew p al e .
I t a l l wa s
a j ok e wh ich o r i g inated a t the t ime I app l i e d fo r my p a s s ­
po r t i n Vienn a .
Amon g o t h e r t h i n g s I h a d t o obt a in a doc u ­
me n t t o prove that I wa s 1 0 0 % Jewi s h and , t he r e f or e , not
e l i g i b l e f o r a rmy duty .
And whenever you app l ie d fo r a
do c ume nt you h a d to submit I don ' t know how many o t h e r doc u ­
me n t s , inc luding y our f ather ' s b i r t h c e rt i fi c ate .
The o f ­
f i c i al who prepared that p a r t i c u l a r document , i n s te ad o f
wr i t in g my n ame , wrote " Ot to N e u t r a . "
He go t the i de a from
my f a t h e r ' s b irth c e rt i f i c at e wh ich s ta t e d that my father
was b o rn in Mo r a v i a i n t he town o f Vrad i s t , K om i t at ( o r
I t o l d that o f f ic i al , " Li s t e n , y o u made
county ) o f Ne utr a .
a mi s t ak e .
Maybe I c o u l d g e t anot her document b e c a u s e my
n ame i s N a t z l e r . "
We l l , i t ' s impo s s i bl e that an o f f ic i al
c an make a mi s t ake .
F i n a l ly I convinced him whe r e t he Neutra
c ame from and I s howe d h im .
But i n s t e ad of writ ing i t a l l
ove r o n a new sheet o f pape r , h e c r o s s ed out " Ne ut r a " and
wro t e my n ame above i t , un derne ath he wrote : N ame n s a en de rung
amt l i c h ber ic hti gt , wh i c h me an s , " ch an ge o f n ame o f f i c i a l l y
doc umente d . " Another s t amp , another sw a s t i ka s t amp , an d
h i s s ignature .
A s I s ai d , I f r i ghtened Mr . Ne u t r a by
t e l l ing h im that I was a r e l at i ve of h i s , and I s aid , " We l 1 ,
n e xt t ime I c ome I wi l l s how y o u t he p r o o f . "
When I s howed
He
h im the documen t I h ad s ave d , it c a lme d h im s omewh at .
r e a l i ze d that I h ad been j o king b e fo r e .
At any r a t e , we
p laye d chambe r mu s ic at t he ir ho u s e .
The ne xt thing I r ec a l l wa s whe n s ome bo dy t o ld u s abo ut the
Nat ion a l Ce ram i c Exh i b i t i o n i n S yr a c us e , New Yo rk , wh i c h wa s
h e l d i n Octob e r-Novemb e r o f 1 9 3 9 .
He s a id we s ho u l d s e nd
s ome o f our wo r k by a l l me an s .
I s e l e c t e d f i ve p i e c e s - i t w a s t he maximum one c o u l d s en d .
I t h ink t he e n t ry f e e
wa s t h r e e do l l ar s , a l o t o f mone y , b u t i t had t o be done .
I n a d d i t i o n we had t o pay f o r t he s h i pp i ng .
And I r e c a l l
one eve n ing o n e o f our f r ie n d s c ame a n d a s ke d , " H ave you
he ard from Syr a c u s e ? " and I s a id , " No , we have n ' t g o t t e n
our r e j e c t io n no t i c e y et . " A n d s h e s a id , " What do you mean ,
r e j e c t ion n o t i c e , t hey ' l l a c c e pt your p i e c e s , y ou ' l l e ve n
win a prize . "
I s ai d , " Do n ' t b e r i d i c u lo u s , t h ing s are not
done this way .
I f they a c c ept one o r two p i e c e s , we ' l l b e
ve ry happy . "
The f o l lowing day we got a te l e gr am .
At first
I thought i t w a s from Europe ; i n tho s e day s t he r e wa s a lway s
anxie ty about r e c e iving a t e l e gram .
Then I opened i t and i t
s aid , " Y o ur wo r k awarded f i r s t p r i ze i n t he N at iona l C e r am i c
Exhib i t ion .
L e t t e r and c he c k f or $ 1 0 0 wi l l fo l low . " W e
bo t h c o u l dn ' t b e l ieve i t .
I cou l d no t be l i e ve i t .
Tha t wa s
49
the g r e a t e s t surpr i s e .
A s i de from t he f a c t that $ 1 0 0 was
a r e a l fo rtune .
You mu s t r e al i ze t hat our t o t a l l iv i ng
e xpe n s e s we r e abo ut $ 7 0 - $ 7 5 p e r mo n t h .
Then anot he r s u r ­
p r i s e - - our f ive p i e c e s we r e photograph e d and they app e a r e d
in s e ve r a l art maga z ine s .
A t t ha t t ime a f r ie nd s ugg e s t e d
that w e wr i t e to s ome p e o p l e who h a d a very go od shop i n
S a n Franc i s c o .
S h e h a d s e e n i t and k n ew t hey were alway s
inte r e s t e d i n new wo r k , and we s ho u l d wr i te t hem an d t e l l
And
them about u s and m aybe even s e nd one o r two p ie c e s .
I did .
RB :
Wh i c h shop w a s t h i s ?
ON :
Th i s w a s Amb e r g - H i r th .
They had a studio shop on the f o u r t h
f l oor o f 1 6 5 P o s t S t r ee t , j u s t o ne b lo c k o f f U n i o n Squ are .
I s en t them a few p i ec e s and wro t e them a l e t t e r and a p r i c e
list .
Th e r e wa s p r a c t i c a l ly a n imme d i at e r e p ly , a l o n g l e t ­
They wo u l d l ike
t e r fu l l o f enthu s i asm and encour a geme n t .
to s e e mo r e o f our wo r k .
And a f ew d ay s a f terward s they
s en t a sma l l c he c k , they s o ld a l re a dy some p i e c e s .
A very
encourag ing b e g i n n i n g , and we sent t hem mo r e p i ece s .
In
t he me ant i me we t r i e d ag a i n he r e in Lo s Ange le s .
We m e t a
Germ an woman who h a d c ome from Be r l in , t he s i s te r o f an
a r c h i te c t , whom we me t later .
He wa s a very good arc h i te c t
by t h e name o f J . R . D avi d s o n .
He d e s igned q u i te a f ew
mo dern ho u s e s in Lo s Ange l e s , mainly on t he we s t s ide .
We
met h i s s i s t e r b e c a u s e she wor ked for the Ame r i c an Me r c h a n ­
d i s in g Corporat ion , AMC , and her duty wa s to t ake o ut - o f ­
town buye r s t o s upp ly p lace s .
S he h a d s e e n some o f o u r wo r k
a n d s h e thought that s ome o f t he i r buy e r s might b e int e r ­
e s ted i n i t .
Eve ry o n c e in a whi l e s he c a l le d u s an d c ame
with a dep artment s to r e buy e r from s u c h o ut l an d i sh p l a c e s a s
Dayton , Ohio , o r De t r o i t , M i c h i g an , a n d s ome t ime s s he wa s
They wou l d p la c e a sma l l order for twe nty do l ­
succe s s fu l .
l ar s o r thi rty do l l ar s .
At l e a s t we c o u l d do o ur o wn wo r k .
By
In the me an t ime we al so had a coup l e mo r e s tudent s .
that t ime w e charged three do l la r s bec a u s e o u r t ime wa s
get t ing a l i t t l e mo r e s c ar c e , but t he s tuden t s p ai d f o r our
It
rent and we c o u l d gr a dua l ly s t art r e t i r ing our " de bt s . "
took about a y e a r and a ha l f t o r e t i r e $ 7 0 0 , but we w e r e no t
p r e s s ured and that w a s fortunate .
One day M i s s David son c a l led , she had a c o up l e o f buy e r s
h e r e whom she wou l d l i ke t o b r i ng in the a f t e rn oon .
She
c ame with t h r e e buye r s who didn ' t t u r n out t o b e v e r y inter ­
e s ted , but none t he le s s e ac h one ordered a do zen o r two a s h
tray s i n va r i o u s c o lor s .
I t w a s o n e o f tho s e du l l o r d e r s .
Out
Whi le we we r e busy with the buy e r s , the doorbe l l rang .
there wa s a m an w i th a very b a t t e r e d hat and a rather
c rump le d s u i t .
He introduced h ims e l f , " My name is J ame s
Pr e s t in i f rom Lake F o re s t , I l l i n o i s .
I h e ar d about y o u
I said ,
from so -and - s o and I wou l d l i ke t o s ee your wor k . "
" I ' m ve ry happy you c ame , but we are very b u sy r i ght now .
Wou l d you have a s e at in t he l i ving room an d we ' l l b e wi th
50
yo u i n a f ew minut e s .
We have s ome b uye r s he r e now . "
He
s at down ve ry pa t i e n t ly and a ft e r abo ut twenty minu t e s t he
He s a i d , " I w ou l d
buye r s l e f t and we g r e e t e d Mr . P r e s t i n i .
l i ke t o s e e what you are do i n g , " and h e l o o ke d .
The phy s i c a l a r r angement w as s uc h , there wa s a hal lway when
you e n t e r e d with the s t a i r s go ing up s t a i r s to the b e d rooms .
To the l e ft wa s the l iving room whe r e we had a bookc a s e and
To
t ab l e and a p i an o and a couch wh ere y o u c o ul d sit down .
the r i ght f r om t he ha l l wa s the s o - c a l l e d d i n in g r o om , wh i c h
had b u i l t - in c ab ine t s wh i c h we u s e d to s t o r e o ur c omp l et e d
wor k .
I wor ke d at a l a rge t ab l e i n that s ame room , I d i d
my g l a z ing t h e r e , a n d t he n there wa s another la rge t ab l e o n
whi ch I h a d a s h e e t o f p lywo o d wh i c h wa s s t ac k e d f u l l o f'
They looked un f in i shed , with
s t i l l un f i r e d g l a z e d p i e c e s .
t he g l a ze app l ied a s a powde ry s ub s t an ce .
At t ha t s t ag e
y o u mu s t n e ve r t o uch them .
W e t r i e d t o ke ep e ve ry b o dy f rom
that t a b l e , not an e a sy t a s k b e c a u s e e ve rybody , inc l u d i n g
the c at , wa s d r awn to i t .
Mr .
Pre s t in i w a s in t h e l i ving
Th e r e we r e
room an d we brought in a f ew p i e c e s t o s how him .
a lr e a dy s ome l e f t f rom t he buy e r s b e f o r e , a n d h e l oo k e d at
them an d then he took some to t he tab l e and put some s ep a ­
r at e ly o n the p i ano .
And then h e c ame into the d in ing room
whe r e the bu l k o f our inve n tory wa s an d l o o ke d aga in , took
anothe r p i ec e and put i t on the p i ano .
F in a l l y he had abo u t
th i rt y o r fo rty p i ec e s on t he p i ano and he s a id , " I l i ke
I have a s hop i n Lake
the s e and I wou l d l i ke to buy them .
Fore s t , I l l ino i s , I wou l d l i ke to buy them . "
I l o o ked at
t he man w i t h s ome a s ton i s hment .
( I h a d looked at h i s hat
and his suit be f o r e . )
I s ai d , "You r e a l l y want to b uy a l l
Some o f them are mor e
o f t ho s e ?
Some are q u i t e e xpe n s i ve .
than ten do l l a r s . "
S o h e s a i d , " We l l , how much i s i t ? "
I t c ame to about $ 1 4 0 .
" That ' s o kay , I ' l l buy t he m , and a s
a mat t e r o f f ac t , s inc e you don ' t know me , I ' l l g i ve you a
c he c k r ight now i f you ' l l s end the p i e ce s . "
S o he wro t e a
check .
Nothing l i ke i t h a d e ve r ha ppene d be f o r e , s o t ha t
made m e s u s p i c i o u s o f t h e m an .
W e t o o k t he chec k to t h e
b a n k and w e wa i t e d about f our o r f i ve day s be f o r e p a c k i ng
the p i ec e s and s h ipping them .
The c h e c k didn ' t bounc e .
The fo l lowing y e a r we me t J ame s P r e s t i n i in San Fr anc i sc o
a t Art s i n Act ion .
He d i dn ' t wor k ther e but he c ame b e c a u s e
he had an e xh i b i t ion o f h i s wo r k a t Mi l l s Co l l e g e .
H e wa s
a very fine c r af t sman , he s t i l l i s .
At t he t ime he d i d
e xc l u s ive ly wooden o b j ec t s , t urne d on t he l a the , e xt reme ly
t h i n bowl s and other conta iner s .
When we s aw h im in S an
Fran c i sco we bartered o ne o f hi s p i ece s fo r one o f o u r s and
we s t i l l tre a sur e i t .
The fo l l ow i n g ye ar ( 1 9 4 1 ) the war s t arte d .
I w a s then c o n ­
s ide r e d j u s t a b i t above dr a f t age , a lthough I h a d t o r e g i s ­
t e r for the d r af t .
But gra dua l l y they c a l l e d p eop l e i n my
age group .
F i r s t t hey took only unmar r i e d s , then they
s t ar t e d t aking mar r i e d s up t o twen ty - e ight , and f in a l ly
t hey c a l l e d up everybody up to t h i rty - f ive .
And one day I
51
w a s a s ke d to p r e s e n t my se l f t o my dr a f t b o a r d .
I w a s ve ry
Ju s t a t that
unhappy about i t , f o r mo r e than one r e a son .
t i me we had been a s ked to have a show o f o ur work a t the
o l d Lo s Ang e l e s m u s e um, a t the Expo s i t ion P a r k .
It wa s a
one -man s how , and we wer e f r an t ic a l ly prep a r i n g f o r i t .
We had e xh i b i ted here and t h e r e in group exh ib it io n s and
been awa rded hon o r a b l e me nt i o n s a coup l e o f t ime s b e f o r e ,
but a so lo show - - t h at wa s s ometh ing unhea r d o f .
I we nt to my d r a f t b o a r d an d there wa s a very s ympa thet i c
l a d y on who se shou l de r s I c r i ed .
I to l d h e r that w e had
come f r om Europe j u s t a l i t t le over two y e ars ago -- that
I wa s very w i l l ing t o go i nto the U . S . Army , but r ight now
we had the chance o f a l i fet ime with an e xh i b i t ion at the
Los Ange l e s County Mu s e um for wh i c h we are p r e p a r i n g .
C o u l dn ' t my c a l l t o the a rmy be p o s tpone d ?
She s a id , " We l l ,
I ' l l s e e what I can do for y ou , " and when I went t h e r e an ­
o t he r t ime and I thought p i c ture s wou l d s pe ak louder than
wor d s :
I t o o k a sma l l p ie c e we had j u s t made t o s how her
She a dmired i t and I s a id ,
what our wo r k wa s al l about .
" I f y o u r e al ly l i ke i t , wou l d y o u l ike to k e ep i t ?
I don ' t
me an anyth ing by tha t .
I know i t won ' t i n f luence your
I t wa s a r e a l ly
t h i nk i ng , but I wou l d l ike you t o have i t . "
sma l l p i e c e that wo u l d h ave s o l d for two do l l ar s r e t a i l at
that t ime ( an d ha l f of that a t who l e s a l e ) .
S he kept t he
p i e c e and a f t e r a l i tt le wh i le she s a i d , " We l l , I ' l l try
t o po s tpone your induc t ion c al l unt i l a f t e r the show . "
And
she d i d .
( I be l ie ve the r e wa s a b o a r d mee t ing , o f c o ur s e ,
and s he had to p re s e nt i t to t he bo a r d , but I got my r e ­
p r i e ve unt i l a f t e r t he show . )
When the s how w a s o ve r , o f
c o u r s e , I go t my s e c ond invi t at ion to pre s e n t my se l f f o r
my me d i c a l p r e - induc t ion examina t ion .
A f t e r spending the
who l e day there , I h a d to c o me back , there was some thing
wrong , they found s uga r in my urine and so they gave me a
t e s t for b l ood s ugar wh i c h I p a s s e d w i th f ly ing c o l or s .
A f t e r t hey f i n i s hed with a l l t e s t s - - i t w a s a very t h o rough
exam inat ion , probably the mo s t thor ough of my l i f e -- I wa s
r e f e r r e d to t he f in a l med i c a l p e r s o n who l o o ke d my p ap e r s
o ve r and then h e s a id , " Show m e y o u r f e e t .
I note t h a t y ou
" No ,
have two hamme r to e s .
Do they bother y ou very muc h ? "
t hey don ' t bo ther me . "
" C an you wa lk ? "
" Oh ye s , o f c o ur s e ,
I l i ke to h i ke i n t he moun t a in s , t hey don ' t
I can wa lk .
" St i l l , we have t o g i ve you l im i t e d
bo the r me at al l . "
se rvic e .
We have t o put you i n t o l imited s e r vi c e . "
I
don ' t know whe t he r he wa s a b i t su sp ic i o u s be c ause I had an
a c c e n t and I a c t e d a s i f I w a s e ag e r to get into t he army
by any me an s ( wh i c h I wa s no t ) .
At any r a t e , h e s a i d ,
You may go
" The l imited s e r v i c e quo t a i s fu l l r i ght now .
home .
We ' l l c a l l you when we ne ed you .
You have t o go and
p r e s ent thi s c ard t o y o ur dra f t b o a rd . "
S o I we nt back t o
my d r a f t board , a n d I t a l k e d to t h e s ame l a dy a g a i n a n d s h e
I f you w i l l t ake my
s a i d . " Oh , you ' r e o n l imited s e r vic e .
I would
advi c e ; you know what I wou l d do i f I we r e you ?
g e t an e s s e nt i al j o b , a w a r e s s e n t i a l j ob , anywh e r e ,
52
regardl e s s o f what i t i s .
And i f you have a war e s se nt i a l
j ob , we ' l l r e - c l a s s i fy you and you ' l l probab ly never h e a r
f rom any d r a f t b o a r d a g a i n . "
B y t he way , I want to c o rr e c t
a date - - i t w a s 1 9 4 4 t h a t I hea r d t h i s .
At any r a t e , s he
wa s very empha t ic about i t so I t hought , we l l , she know s
be s t .
I l oo k e d for a j o b , wh i c h was not d i f f ic u l t t o f i nd ,
e s pec i a l ly s ince I had j u s t r ec e nt ly taken a cour s e in
p l a s t e r p at t e rn making , s ome th i ng that inter e s t e d me for
var i o u s r e a s on s , a l s o for my own wo r k .
I wa s looking for a j o b r e l a t e d to airc r af t de s i gn , de s ig n
o f a n y thre e - d imen s i ona l o b j e c t s .
After a few day s I found
a j o b whi c h was not q u i te t o my l i ki ng , and l at e r I c hang e d
to a j o b wh i c h w a s a l s o n o t to my l i king , b u t at l ea s t i t
w a s c lo s er t o home .
I t wa s i de a l f o r o n e r e a s on :
I wo rked
swing s h i ft f rom three t h i rty in t he a f ternoon un t i l p as t
midn i ght , so I c o u l d u s e the mo r n i n g s for my own w o r k at
home .
Th i s c o n t i nu e d for a wh i l e unt i l I n e ar ly h a d a
n e rvou s break dow n , ma inly bec au s e the j o b w a s ve ry no i sy ,
l ot s o f hand -mo lding o f met a l go ing on in one room an d I w a s
p art o f i t .
By that t ime s omebody I knew s ugge s ted that an e s s e nt i al j o b
doe s n ' t r e al ly have to be in war indu s try ; she knew fo r
i n s t an c e t hat an e s s e nt i a l j o b wou l d be wo r k i n g a s a dent al
S he knew
t e c hn i c i an , o r anyth ing c onne c t e d w i t h me d i c ine .
o f a den t a l t e c hn ic i an who n e e ded p eop l e s k i l l e d in p l a s te r
I we nt there , i n t ro duce d my s e l f and
w o r k and a l so mo de l i ng .
a s ke d i f they had a j o b .
They d i d and i t w a s i d e a l , b e c a u s e
i t w a s r e a l ly quie t , e xc e p t f o r a r a d i o that wa s go ing a l l
day l o n g .
One o f the t e c hn ic i an s wa s a f a n o f We s te rn mus i c ,
and i t took some t ime to convince him and t he bo s s that i t
wa s n ' t fa i r t o p lay We s tern mu s i c a l l day long .
I wo u l d l i ke
The r e w a s
t o l i s te n at l e a s t one hour t o c l a s s ic a l mu s i c .
n o t t o o muc h c l a s s ic a l mu s i c on t he a i r then , on ly one radio
s t at ion - - KFAC .
I w a s f i na l ly g iven t he hour f rom two to
three to turn on c l a s s i c a l mu s ic , to the de sp air o f my
We stern f r i end .
Th i s j o b , too , f o r t un a t e ly f o r me , w a s
c l o s e to h ome , s o I c o u l d d o s ome o f my own wo r k .
None the ­
l e s s , in Augu s t 1 9 4 5 , when t h e war ended I s a i d goodbye t o
e ve rybo dy and i t w a s a g r e at r e l i e f to g e t b a c k t o my own
work 1 0 0 % .
RB :
During t h i s t i me we r e you s e e ing other ar t i s t s , c o l l e c to r s ,
de al e r s ?
ON :
We ha d one permane nt de aler in L o s Ang e l e s by that t ime .
A s a matte r o f f ac t , we me t him a s e ar l y a s 1 9 4 1 .
He wa s
D a l z e l l Hat f ie l d who owned p r ac t i c a l ly the only s e r i o u s art
g a l l e ry in town .
As a m at t e r of fac t , we were introdu c e d
t o h im by another c e rami s t , B i l l Manker , whom H at f i e l d r e ­
Man ker l ived in
p r e s e n t e d f o r many ye ar s b e f o r e we me t .
He
emp
loye d a c o up l e o f
C l a r emon t an d h a d a sma l l studio .
He d i d ve ry good wo r k ,
peop l e and was quite we l l known .
though much o f i t w a s c a s t , but h e a l so d i d h and- thrown
53
p ie ce s .
He knew H a t f ie ld an d he f e lt t hat we shou l d mee t
He l i ked our wo r k and he wa s r e a l ly he lp f u l t o
h im al s o .
I t wou l d n e ve r have o c c ur r e d to
introduce u s to Hat f ie l d .
me t ha t I s ho u l d look for an art ga l l ery as an out l e t f o r
I thought they d e a l t on ly in o ld m a s te r s , maybe
o u r wo r k .
F r e n ch i mp r e s s io n i s t s , and very o c c a s iona l ly a contempor ary
Howeve r , both H at f ie l d and
Ame r i c a n pa inter or s c u lpto r .
his wi fe we r e q u i te imp r e s se d w i th wha t we did and he s a i d
that h e wou l d l i ke t o have a f e w p ie c e s in t he ga l l e ry and
Sure eno ugh , h e got peop l e i n t e r e s t e d .
s e e wha t h appen s .
The r e w e r e al so a number o f mu s eum peop le who c ame to t he
g a l l ery regu l a r ly .
I r e c a l l in p ar t ic u lar Reg inald P o l a n d
who wa s t he d i r e c to r at the S a n D i ego F i ne Art s Ga l l ery at
the t ime , a mo s t cha rming sma l l mu s eum .
As a
Po land fe l l in love w i th our wo r k , r ea l ly , l i t e r al ly .
m at te r o f fa c t , he w a s r e spon s i b l e f o r our f ir s t o n e -man
I t w a s fo l lowed
mu s eum e xh i b i t ion at h i s mu s e um in 1 9 4 0 .
by another s how two ye ar s l at e r .
There is o ne epi s o de I
r e c a l l , I don ' t know whet he r i t wa s dur ing the f ir s t e xh i ­
b i t ion o r the s e c ond , h e a s ke d whether we wou l d come down
I ac cepted
to the mu s e um an d gi ve a t al k on our w o r k .
d e s p i t e the f a c t t h a t m y Eng l i sh w a s s t i l l rather p o o r .
We drove to S an D i eg o and o ur good f r i e n d , E s ther S h ir ey ,
a c c ompan i e d u s .
I l e c t ur e d , every once in a wh i l e g ro p i ng
f o r wo rd s , and g e t t i n g some he lp f r om the aud ie nce , and at
the e n d o f t he l e c ture Regina l d P o land took u s to hi s o ff ice
and thanked me .
Gertrud whom I exp e c t ed to sha re th i s w i t h
me d i dn ' t t a lk a l though h e r E n g l i s h wa s much b e t t e r than m i ne .
P o l a n d thanked u s both and very d i s c r e e t ly handed me a t e n ­
Th i s w a s unexpe c t e d , s o w e
d o l l a r b i l l f o r my e xpen s e s .
a l l w e n t o ut and sp lurge d on a f ancy di nne r i n La J o l l a .
I f he l ike d an a rt i s t ' s
H at f i e l d w a s the ide al art de a l e r .
I f he didn ' t l i ke i t , h e
wo r k , he we nt a l l out f o r h im .
d i dn ' t , and that w a s i t .
As an a r t d e a l e r , he s howe d g r e a t
i d e a l i sm , b ut he w a s a l s o p r ac t i c a l and very muc h awa r e that
an art i s t had to l ive and he had t o se l l h i s wo r k .
As a
r u l e , h e wa s an exce l l ent s a l e sman .
We s t aye d w i t h h i s
g a l l e ry f r om 1 9 4 0 unt i l 1 9 6 7 , a y e a r o r two a fter h i s d e ath .
He w a s re s pon s i b l e for
I t w a s a very p le a s an t r e l a t i o n s h i p .
a number of mu seum e xh i b i t i o n s , I r e c a l l e s pe c i a l ly one in
C hi c a g o a t the Ar t I n s t i tute i n 1 9 4 6 wh i c h wa s very w e l l
r e ce ived .
At that t ime t he Ar t I n s t itute a c q u i r e d a smal l
It
c o l l e c t io n o f our wo r k f o r i t s p e rmanent c o l l ec t io n .
wa s n i c e t o know c e r t ain very go o d p i e c e s were i n that
imp o r t ant mus eum .
I n 1 9 4 5 , r i ght a f t e r the war h ad ended , I h ad ve ry unp l e a s ant
news from the E a s t C o a s t , wher e my p ar e n t s l ived .
They had
c ome o ve r from Europe in 1 9 4 1 , and l i ve d in Trenton , N ew
I wa s to l d that my mo the r had incurab l e c an ce r .
Je r s ey .
S he had a ma s t e c tomy wh i le she s t i l l w a s in Vie nna a ft e r w e
had l e f t , and then here s he h a d a me t a s t as i s a n d her l i fe s pa n
54
wa s ve ry l im i te d .
Du r ing t h e wa r long d i s tan c e t ra ve l
wa s n e ar ly impo s s ib l e for o r d in a ry c i vi l i an s .
So a s soon
We l e ft Lo s
a s trave l w a s po s s i b l e we went bac k E a s t .
Ang e l e s on the 2 5 th o f Octobe r , 1 9 4 5 .
Tr ave l w a s not
q u i te a s e a sy t he n .
We f le w to New Yo r k , a n d the o n l y way
we c ou l d go wa s by chang ing p l ane s tw ic e .
There we r e s ome
d i r e c t f l ight s but t hey were a l l f u l ly booked for we e k s and
mon t h s .
We dec ided to tak e a f l i g ht to S a l t Lake C i ty
f i r s t , w i t h o n ly one s top in La s Vega s .
From t he r e in an ­
o the r p lane t o C h ic a go , and c hange p l an e s a ga i n , t he n i t
wa s non - stop f r om C h i c ago t o New Y o rk .
The f l i ght t o o k
" on l y " twenty- two hou r s .
W e m a rve l e d a t the s pe e d .
Ye s t e rday i n L o s Ange l e s , t o day New Yo rk C i ty !
We l e f t
o n one o f tho s e gorgeo u s day s that you have o n c e i n a g r e a t
I t w a s s l i ght ly b re e zy , ve ry c l e a r and
whi le , in Octobe r .
warm .
When we g o t t o New Y o rk i t w a s windy , c o ld , r a iny ,
but nonethe l e s s i t wa s our f i r s t t ime i n New Y o r k and we
e n j oy e d the c i ty .
As m at t e r s wen t , the Hat f ie l d s we r e in
N e w York at the t ime , and t hey had a r o om a t t h e B arb i zon
P l a z a , way up on the t h i r ty - f i fth o r t h i rty - s i xth f lo o r ,
the very l a s t f l o o r , w i th a fant a s t ic view l o o king s o u t h
I r e c a l l o n e s un ­
on S i xt h Avenue .
We we r e ve ry imp r e s s e d .
s e t when we went t o s e e t he m i n the l at e a f ternoon , a n d we
I t wa s
e xp e r i e nced t he s un se t .
It wa s j u s t unb e l ie va b l e .
l ik e b e ing in the moun ta i n s , o n ly d i f fe r e n t .
O f c o ur s e , New
Y o r k and t he mu s eums were j u s t o ut o f t h i s wor l d e ven t hen ,
an d we spent a l l t he t ime we d idn ' t spend i n Trenton i n
New Y o r k wande r ing a r o un d , t aking phot o graphs and en j o y i n g
t he c ity .
At t h a t t ime we b e c ame a s so c i a t e d w i th a ga l l ery ,
t hrough Hat f i e ld , by the way .
I t w a s a ga l l ery w i t h whom
they had c onnect ion s , t he L i l i e n f e l d Ga l l e ry , o n 5 7 th S t r e e t
He d e a l t main ly in o l d mas t e r s , but
n e a r Mad i son Avenu e .
h e a l so hand l e d F r en c h i mp r e s s ion i s t s , and when he s aw our
wo r k he wa s very impre s s ed .
Karl L i l i en f e l d wa s the kind
o f de a l e r we en j oyed ve ry much , he wa s a l e a r n e d man , he w a s
He had l i ve d i n New
Germa n , but s po ke a ve ry g o o d Engl i sh .
Y o r k f o r a l on g t ime .
He a n d his w i f e , Marga r e t , r an the
·
ga l l ery .
He was a dea l e r who was very good w i t h one e x ­
c ep t ion :
a l l our wo r k wa s on con s i gnme n t , and we d i dn ' t
ob j ect to t ha t .
But once I n o t i c e d that some bo dy c ame an d
want e d to buy one o f the mo s t beaut i fu l p iec e s and he s a i d ,
" I c annot s e l l you t hi s , I 1 ike i t too muc h my se l f . "
The
p i e c e did not be long t o h i m , it be longed to u s .
But he
d i dn ' t want to s e l l i t and n e ither d i d he b uy i t .
But they
They h a d a l i t t le b u l ldog , o n e o f
were very love ly p e o p l e .
tho s e grunt ing , s n o r t i ng dog s with the i r u g l y f a c e b u t
otherw i s e ve ry t ame an d very l o vab l e , and t hey we r e very
fond o f him .
I r e c a l l one day we went to the i r " S e ve n A c re s "
Karl
i n New Je r s ey .
They took u s to s e e the i r hou se .
L i l ie n f e l d drove a C a d i l l a c , wha t vint age I don ' t know
I t w a s a c o l d day
1 9 3 3 o r e a r l i e r -- i t w a s a c onve r t ib l e .
and we a l l drove o ut in h i s unhe a t e d c ar , and s i n c e it w a s
q u i te a way t o g o , they s topped o n the way f o r l unc h , wh ich
wa s p le a s ant and n ec e s s a ry to wa rm up .
Kar l t ie d h i s dog to
55
the cha i r h e wa s s i t t i ng in .
Some peo p le we r e s i t t ing a t
t h e ne xt tab l e , a n d o bvio u s ly the do g co u l d s t r e tc h on h i s
l e a s h f a r enough t o bother them and t hey comp l a ine d , whe r e ­
upon K a r l s a id t o Margare t , " P l e a s e , Marga r e t , t ak e t h i s
fero c io u s bea s t a n d t ie i t c lo s e r t o t he c ha i r . "
The
" fe ro c iou s bea s t " w a s abo ut a foot long !
When we f ina l ly got t o the hou s e we found i t q u i te i n t e r ­
e s t i ng , i t c o n t ained m any p a int ing s an d s c u lpture s , b u t i t
wa s so fr e e z ing c o ld that we d i dn ' t e n j oy i t .
Kar l L i l i e n f e l d
kept on h an d l ing o u r w o r k , b u t n o t w i t h the succ e s s t ha t
Dal z e l l Hat f i e l d h ad .
RB :
D i d you mee t any c ur a t o r s i n New Y o r k on t hat f i r s t vi s i t ,
any mu s e um peop l e ?
ON :
Y e s , at the Mu s eum o f Mo dern Art we met Gr e t a Dan i e l ; s he
She wa s qu i te fon d
wa s c ur a t o r in the dep artment o f de s ign .
o f our wo r k .
By t ha t t ime the Mu s eum o f Modern Art h a d a l ­
r e a dy a c q u i r e d a c o up l e o f p ie c e s , e i ther f rom L i l i en f e l d
o r s ome o t he r out l e t i n New Y o r k .
S h e wo rked w i th A r t hu r
Dr ex l er , a n d s e ve r a l y e a r s l a t e r w e me t Mi ldred Con s t an t i n e .
We d idn ' t
We met h e r a ft e r Gr e t a Dan ie l ' s untime ly death .
The Cr a ft Mu seum
meet anybody at t he Me t ropo l i t an Mu seum .
wa s n ' t in exi s tence y et .
RB :
You d i dn ' t meet Mr s . Webb a t that po in t ?
ON :
We d i d mee t Mrs . Webb , but I b e l ie ve i t wa s s e ve r a l y e a r s
I don ' t r e c a l l whether Ame r i c a Hou s e e x i s t e d at that
later .
t i me , but later on we had de a l i n g s w i t h Ame r ic a Hou s e .
We return e d t o L o s Ange le s in Janua ry� 1 9 4 6 .
My mother ' s
c o n d i t ion h a d s t ab i l i z e d and we s aw no p o i n t i n s t ay ing o n .
When we a r r i ve d home our l an d lo r d , whom we l ove d ve ry muc h ,
info rmed u s that h e intended to s e l l h i s hou s e , and th at
c ame a s a great s ho c k .
We both we r e q u i te att a c h e d to h im
and not s o muc h to t he hou s e .
So a t t ha t t ime we de c id e d
to l o o k for other quarte r s .
W e a l s o fe l t i t mayb e w i s e to
Se l l ing a hou s e w a s e a sy in 1 9 4 6 ; w i t h i n a
buy a hou s e .
But f in d i n g some t h i n g t o buy t h a t wa s
month i t wa s s o l d .
a l so a f f o rdab l e t o u s w a s q u i t e d i f f ic u l t .
I looked a n d
Ge rtru d' l o o ke d , w e l o o k e d in t h e we s t e rn p a r t o f town , w e
l o o k e d a l l over the p la c e unt i l w e s aw a n a d in t h e p a p e r
de s c ribing thi s p la ce h e r e :
" Se c l uded , i n the h i l l s , two ­
bedroom h o u s e w i th gue s t h o u s e . "
The " gue s t ho u se " i n t r igued
us bec au s e we fe l t m aybe th i s c an b e u s ed a s a s tudio .
I
c a l l e d the number in the a d , i t w a s a r e a l to r , and h e s a i d ,
" Oh , you wou l dn ' t w an t that hou s e , i t ' s out in the s t i c k s . "
And
" We l l , i f i t ' s out in t he s t i c k s , whe r eabo ut s i s i t ? "
he to l d me .
And I s a i d , " I t h i nk I wou l d l i ke to look a t i t . "
So we made a da te for the n ext day .
He showe d me the h ou s e ,
I d idn ' t l i ke the
I c ame a l one , and I l i ke d t he l o c a t i o n .
approach wh i c h w a s mo re mi s er ab l e than i t i s now , b e c a u s e
56
the d r i veway wa s s t eeper - - you wou l dn ' t be l i eve i t ,
e spec i a l l y the part at the s t r e e t leve l .
The r e w as l i te r ­
al ly a ho l e there and . eve ry t i me y o u drove u p y o u h i t your
t a i l p ip e o n the s t r ee t .
But nonethe le s s I looked at i t .
I we n t home an d s ai d to Ge r t r ud ,
" I t h i nk you shou l d l o o k
at i t al so .
Mayb e you ' l l l i ke i t . "
S o t he two o f u s c ame
back and there w a s a b lo oming p e ac h t r e e on the h i l l , and
that did it to Ge r t r ud.
The b l oom i n g tree and the l i t t l e
S o the n e x t day
b l oomi ng w i s t e r i a that g rew i n the p a t i o .
we had bought the hous e .
It was w ay ove r our h e a d .
T he
s e l l er wan t e d a n enormou s down p ayme n t wh i c h we d i dn ' t have .
Howe ve r , I had bo ught some de fen s e bon d s du r i n g t he w ar and
I t hought , we l l , I m ay c a sh t hem .
And t hen I t a l k ed to my
l an d l o r d about i t an d he s a i d , " We l l , i t ' s e xp e n s i ve but ,
I g ue s s , e ve ry t hi ng ' s e xp e n s i ve t he s e day s . "
They
Are you i n t e r e ste d t o kn ow how e xp e n s ive i t w a s ?
w an t e d $ 1 6 , 5 0 0 for t he p l ac e .
But they s a id t hat wou l d
inc l ud e the r e f r i g e r a t o r and the s tove !
We f i n a l l y g o t
t h e p r i ce down to $ 1 6 , 2 5 0 .
Howe ve r , they wan t e d a down
payment o f $ 6 , 0 0 0 wh ic h w a s outrageou s .
The o n ly g o o d
thing w a s t h a t t hey a s sumed the f i r st mor t g ag e at t h e r a t e
o f , I t h i nk , 5 - 3 / 4 % , wh i c h w a s a l s o outr a g e o u s b e c au s e a
r e g u l ar mortgage at that t i me at a bank wou l d b e b e twe e n
4 � % and 5 % , and i f y o u go t an F . H . A . l o an i t c o u l d b e a s
Howeve r , nobody wou l d lo an any mon ey on
low a s 3 � % .
p ro p erty l i ke th i s , i n the " s t i c ks , " i n the h i l l s w i th
n o th i ng around .
( That w a s pro bab ly t he r e a son t he s el l e r
a s sumed t h e f i r s t mo r tgage . )
When we move d h e r e i n Ma � 1 9 4 6 we c o u l d s e e t he hou s e ac ro s s
t he s tr e e t , and a s econd ho u s e ac r o s s t he s t r e e t , o n e ho u s e
o n that h i l l o ve r the r e a n d t he roo ftop o f o n e other h o u s e .
On the o t h e r hand , there we r e two t re e s he re , a euc a lyp t u s
i n b a ck o f the ho u s e and a sy camore t r e e i n front , down o n
t h e s lo p e o f the h i l l .
Howeve r , t h e s y c amore y o u c o u ldn ' t
And
s ee f rom he r e bec a u s e i t w a s only about s ix f e e t t a l l .
t hen t he r e were e uc a lypt u s t r e e s a l ong the d r i veway wh i c h
On a c l e a r
w e r e al so qui t e s m a l l .
The v i e w w a s a l l o p e n .
day y o u c o u l d s e e Mt . B a l dy and t h e who l e range o f mount a i n s ,
and the r e were s t i l l q u i te a f ew c l e a r day s at that t ime .
Howe ver , t hi s openne s s had one g re a t di s adva n t a ge , t h e r e
w a s no shade , a n d t he s u n b e a t down on u s a l l day l on g .
The � emp e r at ur e i n our l i ving room i n summe r go t up t o a
hundred degr e e s .
S o the f i r s t thing we d i d wa s p l an t t re e s , and we p l anted
them al l o ve r .
We h a d s ome d i ff i c u l ty moving h e r e , ma i n ly
on a c c o unt o f the s te e p appr o ac h , but a ft e r we mo ved i n i t
w a s quite c om fortabl e .
Then i t turned out w e n e e d ed more
e l e c t r i c i ty t han we had for o ur k i ln .
We c a l l e d the Depart­
I ca lled again
ment o f Wat e r and P owe r , but n ob o dy c ame .
and they s a i d , " We l l , w e have t o f ir s t i nve s t i ga t e thi s .
57
An i n s p e c t o r i s s uppo s e d to c ome . "
But t he i n sp e c to r , t o o ,
neve r s howed up .
I c a l le d s e ve r a l mo r e t ime s and f i n a l l y
I fo und o ut , " So r ry , w e c an ' t s e l l e l ec t r ic ity for c omme r ­
c i al e s t ab l i s hm e n t s a t t h a t l o c a t ion . "
"Who to l d you we
" Th e i n s p ec to r s a i d you a r e a comme rc i a l
were c omme r c i a l ? "
e s t abl i s hment . "
" The i n s p e c to r w a s n ' t e ve n he r e .
How
c o u l d h e s ay such a t h i n g ? "
We l l , it turned o ut that t he
i n s p e c t o r w a s o bviou s ly too l a zy t o c ome out her e wh i c h was
way up i n the h i l l s o f Ho l l ywoo d .
There w e r e h a r d ly any
peo p l e l iv i n g he r e then , so he we nt to our o l d l o c at io n and
a s ked the ne i ghbo r s to the r i ght and to t he l e f t whe t h e r we
had l ived t he r e and whe t h e r t hey knew wha t we w e r e d o i ng .
They s a i d we made c e r am i c s an d h e a s ke d whether we s o l d any .
And �hey a l l s a id , y e s , we ma de c e r amic s and a s f a r a s t hey
That i n fo rmat i o n w a s enough f o r h i m to
knew w e s o l d the m .
dec l are us a comme r c i al e s t ab l i s hment , and we wo u l dn ' t get
I w a s fur i o u s and c omp l e t e ly
any add i t i o n a l e l ec tr ic i ty .
shattered .
Whe r e do you go f rom h e r e ?
I s hou l d me n t i o n a t t h i s p o i n t that wh i le w e s t i l l l ived o n
St . Andrews P l a c e dur ing t he war , o n e day a g e n t leman rang
our doorbe l l , a ve ry n ic e lo o k i n g man , in tro duc e d himse l f ,
" I ' m Andrew B l a c kmo r e , I ' m vic e pre s ident o f the B ank o f
Ame r i c a and I ' m a g r e a t a dm i r e r o f your wo rk .
I ' m an
amat e ur c e r am i s t my s e l f and I wou l d l i ke to s e e s ome o f
your wo r k . "
He hande d me a b rown p aper b a g i n wh i c h t h e r e
wa s one pound o f s we e t but t e r , some t hing e xt reme ly r ar e i n
He w a s very c h a rm i n g and we be c ame fr i e n d s
t ho s e d ay s .
a f t e rward s ; a f te r s uc h a n i n tro duc t ion , how c an you r e s i s t ?
But t h i s w a s e xa c t ly t he w ay h e introduc e d h i m s e l f .
RB :
Swee t but t e r b e c a u s e y o u ne e de d c oupon s ?
was a very s p e c i a l g i ft ?
ON :
Numbe r o n e , you n e e d e d c oupo n s to buy b utt e r , but you c o u l d
Swe e t butt e r w a s
buy e i t he r butter o r me at f o r t he c o upon s .
comp l e t e l y unava i lab l e in L o s Ang e le s .
On t he E a s t Co a s t
y o u c o u l d ge t a l l t he swe e t butte r you want e d , but i n Lo s
So , a s I s a i d , Andrew B l ackmo re w a s
Ang e l e s you c o u ldn ' t .
very c ha rming , a ve ry c u l t ur e d gent l eman .
Hi s wi fe w a s
te aching at U . S . C . , e i t he r Eng l i s h l it e r ature o r l a n guage s .
We did not se e t hem frequent l y , I r e c a l l hav i n g been a t
t h e i r home o n l y o n c e when t hey invi t e d u s f o r d i n n e r .
I t hought m aybe the v i c e p r e s ident o f the B ank o f Amer i c a
may know some bo dy who knows some bo dy in c i ty governme n t .
So I c a l l e d h im and to l d him t he who l e s t o ry .
He l i s te n e d
If
attent ive ly a n d s a id , " We l l , I know i t w a s y o ur hobby .
I'm
yo u s o ld a p i e c e here and there , that do e s not matt e r .
go ing t o t al k t o s o - and- so . " And h e s a id , " I ' m go i n g to
c a l l you bac k . "
He did c al l a coup le of hour s l a t e r an d
s a i d , " Tomorrow you ' l l have an i n s p e c t o r come to your p l a c e . "
Sweet b ut t e r ,
it
He w a s not
S ur e enough , the next day an i n sp ec tor c ame .
the s ame man who d i d t he i n ve s t igati n g at the old l o c a t ion .
He i n troduced hims e l f and s a id , " Whe r e i s the p rob l em ? C a n
58
I s e e t he k i l n ? "
I s a i d , " Y e s , " and too k him to t he gue s t
hou s e .
He went in , " Oh , t he r e ' s a k i tc hen in th i s gue s t
That ' s z o n i ng v i o lat ion n umbe r one - - but I c ame
hous e .
to s e e t he ki ln ; I d idn ' t s e e tha t . "
He s aw t he k i ln , he
s aw that i t w a s a hobby k i ln .
He s a i d , " We l l , no p r o b l e m .
The ve ry n e xt day t he Depa r t ­
I t wi l l b e t a ken c ar e o f . "
men t o f W a t e r a n d Power s e n t two huge t r u c k s to ho ok u p a
new tran s former an d he a v i e r power l ine s , a l a r g e r mete r ,
and the f o l lowing d ay we had e le c t r ic i ty fo r the k i l n .
I had been t r y i n g un s uc c e s s fu l ly f o r at l e a s t four wee k s ,
b e fo r e i t o c c u r r e d to me to c a l l Andrew B l ac kmo r e and a sk
f o r h i s he l p .
I n the me ant ime Ge rt rud had wo rked on t he
whee l , a s u s u a l , and there w a s q u i t e a b a c k l o g o f wo r k
wa i t ing f o r f i r i n g .
We f e l t r e l i e ve d .
Hat f i e l d wa s r unn i ng
out o f t h i n g s an d f rom t hat t ime on produc t ion we n t w i tho ut
any h i t c he s .
RB :
We r e you s t i l l t ak ing s t ud en t s ?
ON :
No .
Wi th t he e xc ep t i o n o f a c o up l e o f p eop l e who wanted
to l e a rn how t o t hrow .
Gert rud took t hem for a f ew very
c o n c en t r a t e d s e s s ion s .
Gertrud c o ul d c l e a r l y exp l a i n t he
p r inc ip l e o f t hrowing i n a c o up l e o f l e s son s .
F r om then o n
i t ' s u p to t h e individual t o prac t ic e a n d t o deve lop t h e
t e c hn i que .
S h e wou l d l e t them c ome b a c k f o r a chec kup and
By that t i me s h e had com­
see how they were p r o gr e s s in g .
p le t e ly ana l y z e d the proc e s s and s h e c o u l d t e ac h anybody t o
t hrow in a c o up le o f hours .
RB :
S o the r e you wer e in your new ho u s e .
ON :
Y e s , I s h o u l d me n t i o n that when I t o l d o ur l an d lord I had a
l i t t le over $ 4 , 0 0 0 f o r t he down p ayme n t an d i nte nded t o s e l l
s ome war bo n d s to r a i se the remainde r , he s a i d , " Oh , don ' t
I j u s t s o ld my ho u se , I have extr a
s e ll the de fen se bon d s .
cash .
How muc h do you ne e d ?
$1, 500?
Here i t i s . "
He
I to l d him , o f c o u r s e , I wou l d p ay h im
h anded me a c heck .
intere s t on t he mo ne y , and he s a i d , " Yo u c an pay i t bac k
at your l e i sure . "
( One o f t ho s e true f a ir y t a l e s to r i e s o f
We we r e fo r tunate that Hat f i e l d w a s
the good o l d t ime s ! )
d o i n g ve ry we l l wi th o u r wo r k at t ha t t ime , a n d so w i t h i n
h a l f a ye ar I p aid b a c k t h e f i f t e en hundred do l l a r s .
We d i s c o ve red a s t r ange phenomenon t hen :
some p e o p l e ob ­
Peo p l e we had known down be low
j ec te d to c ome here .
I t s eemed too far to go .
The r o a d s
wou l dn ' t d r i ve here .
w e r e too wind ing , and a l so i t w a s o p e n c o un try a n d s ome
U n fo r t unate ly , i t
peo p l e are a f r a i d o f open c o untry .
di dn ' t s t ay th i s way bec a u se we had l ive d he r e b a r e ly ha l f
a y e a r when they s t ar t e d t o ruin the b e a ut i fu l natur a l
contours o f t he h i l l s acro s s from u s i n N i c ho l s C anyon .
They s t ar t e d to bu l l do ze to c re at e bui l d i n g lot s , b ut wha t
I unde r stood l a t e r on i t bec ame an i l l e ga l min ing o p e r a t i on
for grave l .
The c anyon l o o k e d t e r r i b l e - - i t w a s our un ­
o b s truc ted view - - an d i t looked l i ke an open wound , a b i g
59
o p e n woun d .
I n a dd i t i on to t h e vi s ua l o f f en se , you co u l d
h e ar t he b u l l do z e r s e very d ay , go ing a l l day l o n g , b e c au s e
e ven t he s l ighte s t dr i ft w o u l d b r ing t he n o i se ve ry c l o s e ,
and w e both we r e ve ry no i se - c o n s c ious .
I t d i d not t ake
very l ong and we go t ne i ghbor s he r e .
The f ir s t p e o p le w ho
b u i lt o n what we t houg ht w a s t he l o t ne xt door we r e ve ry
n i c e and we bec ame q uite go o d f r i e n d s a ft e r t he f i r s t
s u sp ic i on wor e o f f .
A l s o , they were at t r a c t e d b y o ur
mu s i c b e c a u s e on w arm s umme r e ven ing s we f r eq uent ly p l ay e d
c h ambe r mu s ic on the pat io out s ide .
T h e r e w a s no bo dy around .
Y o u co u l d p l ay outdoor s , nobo dy cared .
RB :
Who c ame fo r t he c hambe r mu s i c ?
ON :
Our v i o la p l ay e r w a s t he man we me t at the S h e rman-P r e i s s ig s .
He w a s a t e ache r an d he t o o k l e s s on s from u s when we s t i l l
l i ve d o n S t . Andrews P l ac e .
The s econd vi o l in at t h e t ime
w a s a young woman by t he name o f Dorothy H o f fm an who w as
an e x c e l l en t pho t o gr aphe r , who l o ve d our wo r k , and who t o o k
m arve lo u s pho t o gr aph s .
S he w a s a v e r y i nt e r e s t ing young
w oman , e x t r eme ly ta lente d , but as he r aunt s a id , Doro thy
w o u l d work he r s e l f t o a fra z z l e to s tay out o f wor k .
On
the o ther hand , when she did pho t o gr aphy , wh ich was h e r
pro f e s s ion , s he wou l d wor k wi thout inter rupt i on fo r s i x ,
s e ve n h o u r s .
F r e quent ly , when she photogr a phed our wo r k
f o r c a t a l o g s ( the r e are q u ite a few c at a log s w i th repro ­
du ct ion s o f her phot o gr aph s ) , s h e u s ua l l y wou l d s ay ,
" I ' 11
I ' l l be a t y our hou s e
c ome a f t e r I c l o s e my s t u d i o at s i x .
at s i x-thi rty . "
S o Gertr ud
alway s s ai d , " We l l , Do r o t hy ,
won ' t you have d i nn e r wi t h us ?
You won ' t have h a d a n y ­
t h i ng to e at . "
" Y e s , sure , I ' d lo ve to . "
S o s ix - t h i r ty ,
s e ven o ' c lo c k , no Dorothy , s e ven - t h i r ty , no Dor o t hy .
Around a q ua r t er to e i ght she wo u l d c al l , " I ' m j u s t a f ew
m i nute s l a t e , I ' m coming o ve r . "
And t hen we wou l d have
d i nner an d then we wou l d t a lk and s he ' d s ay , " I t ' s b e s t
t h i s w ay anyway b e c a u s e I l ike t o u s e ar t i f i c i a l l ight .
I don ' t l i ke to photograph wh i le t h e r e i s s t i l l day l i ght .
I ' m go ing to s t art r i g ht away . "
We l l , by n i n e or n i ne ­
f i ft e en she wo u l d gr adua l ly s t art s et t i n g up he r l amp s ,
t r ipod an d c ame r a , and then l o o k i ng through the l e n s , p ut
up one po t , the n another po t , then a g r o up o f pot s , c ha n g e
to o t he r s , l ook i ng a gain thro ugh t h e c ame r a , t h i s we nt o n
fo r q u ite a wh i l e .
A s a r u l e , the f i r s t s hu t te r c l i ck
happen e d , i f e ar l y , by e l eve n - t h ir ty .
I f not s o e ar ly ,
by o n e o ' c lock .
And u su a l ly betwe e n e le ven -thi r ty an d
t hree she wo r ked .
One s ho t a f te r the other ; s h e w o u l d do
f i ft e en , m aybe twe n ty photographs w i t hi n tha t t ime .
And
mo s t o f them we re e xc e l l e nt .
RB :
What mak e s a go od photog raph o f a c e r amic p i e ce ?
t he requirement s ?
ON :
F i r s t o f a l l , you have t o s ho o t f r om t he r i ght an g le s o
that you c an s e e the f o rm wi t hout d i s to r tion .
L e t m e s ay
Who p l aye d w i t h you ?
What a r e
60
r ight from the very b e g inn ing t hat you c annot t a k e a
p ho t o g r ap h o f any pot .
I t ' s impo s s i b l e b e c a u s e a po t i s
mor e c omp l ex t han a t hr e e -dimen s io n a l o b j e c t .
They ' r e f o u r ­
d ime n s iona l , a c t ua l l y , be c au se a pot h a s an i n s ide an d the
in s id e is as imp o r t a n t as the out s i de .
And nobo dy c an
photograph bo t h the i n s i de and the out s ide at the s ame t i me .
I t ' s impo s s ib l e .
How e ve r , i f you s e t y o ur c ame r a at suc h
an an g l e that you c an gue s s what the i n s ide lo o k s l i ke ,
even tho ugh you don ' t s e e i t , i t wi l l b e a s t art i n the
r i ght d i r ec t io n .
I f i t i s a ro und o r c ir c u l ar form , you
have t o l i gh t it i n such a way that the l i ght i s not too
hars h , s o a s to emp ha s i z e and enha n c e the roundn e s s .
Of
c o ur s e , when i t c ome s t o form i n gener a l , but e s pe c i al ly in
our wo r k , you have to be ab l e t o c omprehend i t i n the c om­
Th i s may s o und p ar a do x i c al .
p le xity o f i t s utter s imp l ic ity .
So p e r hap s I s ho u l d exp l ai n f i r s t how Gert rud a r r i ve d at
her f o rm s .
They look s o n atur a l , s o s e l f - eviden t , s o -this is the way i t i s , t h i s is the way it mus t b e , t he r e ' s
They c annot b e any d i f f e r ent .
Howe ve r , i t
no que s t i on .
It w a s
took a long t ime unt i l s h e a r r i ve d at t hat po i n t .
he r pe r s i s t ance t o c on c e n t r a t e on a ve ry f ew fo rms and t o
per f e c t them gradu a l ly t o that p o i n t by r ep e a t i ng t hem w i th
j u s t ve ry subt l e var i at i o n s .
Some o f our c o l l e ague s wer e
l e s s we l l me an ing .
They c la imed t h at o ur s ty l e ha s n ' t
c h anged i n al l tho s e y e ar s .
But they don ' t s e e the s ubt l e
c hange , b e c a u s e mo s t peop le don ' t s e e the di f f e r en c e .
Yo u
don ' t r e al i ze how d i f f ic u lt i t i s to d i s t i l l a f o rm to t he
very e s sence o f that p a r t i c u l a r fo rm .
S o you f in d in t h e
b e ginning t he s ame f l a r in g bowl , wh i c h wa s s o typ ic a l l y
Gertru�
you ' l l f in d that the proport ion s we r e n o t r i ght ,
t ha t the b e l ly o f the bowl w a s far too low , an d i t d i dn ' t
h ave the f l a i r , t he dynami c s , that he r lat e r f orms o f t h a t
very s ame ide a had .
A l s o , w hen s he c re a t e d t h e f i r s t f l a r ing
fo rms she want e d t o do , she f e l t , we ll , it s tuc k too muc h t o
So s he added a ba s e to
I t w as too e ar t h - bo un d .
the ground .
i t , and i t imp rove d i t c o n s ider ably .
Howe ve r , i t w a s a b a s e ;
i t was not o r g a n ic , e ven i f the b a s e w a s r ight in propo r t i on
to the form .
Only y e a r s later s ome thing wh i c h w o u l d be
natura l , you wou l d think , she incorporated t he b a s e in t he
form i t s e l f .
That m e a n s i t f l ared out from the ba s e into
the form i t se l f and then up and then a g a i n a f l ar e d l ip .
Later on when I d i s cu s s e d th i s with G e r t rud I r an into a
book by Romain Ro l l and about B e ethoven an d h i s n o t e bo o k s
( not that I want to c omp are Ge rtrud o r my s e l f w i th Be e t ­
ho ven ) , a n d lo o k i n g through t he examp l e s that Romain Ro l l and
quoted , i t g r e a t ly surpr i se d me how Bee t ho ve n ve ry g ra dua l ly
a r r i ve d at the open ing t heme o f the s e c on d mo veme n t o f the
When yo u h e a r i t , y o u know i t
E r o i c a ( the fune r a l marc h ) .
c an ' t b e any other w ay .
But there were at l e a s t fourteen
di f f erent va r i at ion s , some o f them q u i te p r imit i ve , and when
you he ar i t , it sounds l i ke i t was the g r e a t i n s p i r at i o n on
But h e mu s t h ave
whi c h t he ent ire s e c ond mo vemen t was bu i l t .
wo r ked l i ke a do g to r e f ine i t to the po int h e con s i d e r e d
When I to ld Ge rtrud and showed her t he B e e t hoven
f in a l .
61
s ke t c h e s s he thought i t w a s very inter e s t ing .
S h e found i t
intere s t ing t h a t I wou l d u s e th i s comp ar i son to h e r own wor k .
I b e l i e ve e very s e r io u s a rt i s t w i l l '\ try to get t o the root
o f s ome t h in g o r deve lop s ome th ing f rom t he root up .
And
o f c o ur s e to pho togr aph -- that ' s whe r e we s t ar t e d out , I
know we go t s ide - t r ac ked - - to photograph s ometh ing l i ke
t h i s is n e ar l y impo s s i b l e .
You c an photo graph it r i gh t on
a t the p ro f i le .
Then you can see the form -- the o u t l ine o f
t he form - - very we l l , and i f you u se proper l ig h t i n g you
c a n even se e t he roundne s s , but you s t i l l c annot see the
in s id e .
If you r a i se your c ame r a a l i t t l e b i t , to show the
in s ide -- you may then see an o va l for the ope n ing -- then
you c an gue s s what the i n s ide may look l ike , but o n ly fo rm­
w i s e , but n e ve r r e a l l y know the r e a l i ty .
When I ' m go ing to
s how you l at e r s ome e xamp l e s , you ' l l c l e ar ly under s t an d why
i t i s impo s s i b l e t o r e l ay the p r o p e r impr e s s ion in p ho t o ­
Or
gr ap h s , un l e s s you t a k e t hree o r four d i f f e rent views .
what Ga i l do e s , f o r i n s t an c e , she t a ke s n o t o n ly s e ve r a l
d i f f e rent views o f a p i e c e b u t t hen s h e go e s into d e t a i l
Some ­
o f t exture o f a g l a z e an d r e a l l y shows the s tr u c tur e .
t ime s she s hows s o muc h i n h e r photograph s that peop l e l o o k
at t h e p ho t o g r a p h s f i r s t wh i c h a r e very s tunni n g , and t hen
go b a c k to l o o k at t he pot to s e e wh i c h part o f the pot i t i s .
So photogr aphy ha s a ve ry imp o r t ant fun c t ion i f i t ' s h an d l e d
c o rrec t ly .
Un fortunat e ly , mo s t mu s e ums now - - e ven when
t hey produce an i l l u s tr a t e d c at al o g - - have a much too l im i t e d
budge t for r e a l ly me an i n g f u l co l or reproduc tion .
Maybe t h e r e
was a b e g i n n i n g w i th a mus eum l i ke t h e Smi th s on i an , t hat
t r e ated o ur work a l i tt le b i t d i f f e rent ly , they reproduc e d
some d e t ai l s o f s u r f a c e t exture s .
RB:
Be f o r e we go t o t hat , I wanted to a s k , who w a s t he c e l l i s t
i n your chamber group ?
ON :
The c e l l i s t , when we s t ar t e d out h e r e , w a s Jac k i e R i e s e n f e l d .
He w a s
He was in h i s l at e t e e n s then , t he s o n o f a doc to r .
By t hat
a very t al en t e d mu s ic i an and h ad a b e aut i f u l tone .
t i me we a l so h ad another vio la p laye r , by the name o f Lew i s
Levin s o n , who wor ke d i n c i ty gove rnmen t , but w a s a ve r y good
mu s ic i an .
He dro ve a mo de l A F o r d , and h e wa s the o n l y p e r ­
son I have known who would c ome up Woo drow W i l son D r ive and
make a U- turn into our dri ve way and d r i ve up the s t e e p i n ­
c l ine t o the hou s e .
Un f o r tuna t e ly , J a c k i e R i e s e n fe l d w a s
d r a fted in to the army very s o o n a f t e r we s t ar t e d o u r group .
We we r e very happy with h im , he rea l ly w a s a very g o o d
ce l l i s t .
A n d s o we we r e l e ft w i t ho ut a c e l l i s t ; i t w a s
ve ry s a d .
I r ec a l l one S aturday a f ternoon , when Lew i s Levin son j u s t
c ame by for a vi s i t an d s ai d , " Yo u know , we have n ' t p layed
c h amber mu s i c fo r s o long , wo u l d you l i ke to p l ay c hambe r
mu s ic ? "
I s a i d , " I wo u l d love t o , but Jack ie ' s i n the
a rmy ; we don ' t have a c e l l i s t . "
" Ye s , t ha t ' s true , but I
know a m an .
As a mat t e r o f f ac t , he l i ve s not far f r om you .
62
He l i ve s o n Woodrow W i l s o n - - I do n ' t know whe r e , but I
know he l i ve s on Wo odrow Wi l so n .
Let me try to c a l l h im . "
So h e c a l l e d .
At t he f ir s t try he w a s no t home , but when
L ewi s t r i e d aga in , he w a s .
And h e a s ke d him whe t h e r h e had
t i me .
Ye s , he had t ime .
" We l l , let me try Dorothy and s e e
S o a ft e r
whe t he r s h e h a s t ime . "
Ye s , s h e t o o c ou l d c ome .
q u i t e a l o n g interval , t h a t ve ry e ve n ing we had c hamber m u s i c
again .
T h e m an c ame .
Lew i s w a s t he o n l y o n e who had known
h im , he p l ayed with h im be f o re .
He was an e l de r ly m an .
I
w a s th i r ty - se ven at the t ime , Lew i s wa s about my age , and
D o r o t hy a f ew ye ar s young e r .
On the other hand , he w a s one
o f t he f ew p e o p l e who c ame up here w i thout huf f ing and
p uf f ing .
He had an a c cent wh i c h we c o u l dn ' t tr ac e , but h e
l a t e r s ai d t h a t he wa s bo r n in C z ec ho s lovak i a .
B ut we d idn ' t
t al k t o o muc h .
When he a r r i ve d we a l l s a t down to p lay , and
I think we s t ar t e d with a H aydn Quart e t , as one frequent ly
do e s to warm up .
A s the t h r e e of us had b e e n p l ayi n g t o ­
g e the r for s ome t i me , t he c e l l i s t fe l t l ik e a n o ut s ider .
We s t ar t e d p laying and I w as shocked b e c au s e he s t ar t e d out
very f o r t e , ne ar ly f o rt i s s imo , what w a s suppo s e d to b e p i ano .
My imme d i at e r e a c t ion w a s " Shhhhhhh , " and he q u i e t e d down
and f r om that p o i n t on he p layed w i th us a s i f he had p laye d
w i th u s for the l a s t f i ve y e a r s .
He b l ended i n comp le t e ly .
We p l aye d two quartet s , a s I r ec a l l , t hen Ge rtrud) . a s u s ua l ,
c a l le d u s for r e f r e shmen t s , whi c h u s ua l ly con s i s te d o f c o l d
c u t s , c h ee s e , c e l e ry s t ic k s , t e a , bre ad and b u t t e r a n d fru i t .
The u s u a l p r o c e du r e w a s tha t we s at down and had a l i t t l e
c hat , d i s c u s s ed what a l l we n t wrong i n o ur p l a y i ng w h i l e we
at e , and w i thin le s s t h an a ha l f ho ur we we r e back to p l ay .
That even ing , too , we s at down at the t ab le and we s t ar t e d
t o d i sc u s s thing s .
O u r n e w c e l l i s t al so s at down and
Gert rud o f f ered h im some t h ing and he s a id , " N o , t hank you
very muc h , I ' m not hungry . "
Some how o r o th e r G e rt rud had
s en s ed that perhaps he was a veget a r i an and s he s a id , " A r e
" Oh , we
you b y a n y c ha n c e a v e g e t a r i a n ? "
He s a id , " Ye s . "
have c e l e ry s t ic k s and I have some c ar ro t s in the r e f r i g e r ­
ator . "
" Ye s , but at the mome n t , i f you have any grape f r u i t ,
I ' m o n a grape f r u i t d i e t . "
We d i dn ' t have a grap e f r u i t i n
t h e ho u s e .
" So , you ' r e o n a grap e f r u i t d ie t .
Y o u me an t o
" Ye s , we l l I e a t o n l y
s ay y o u ate only grape f ru i t today ? "
g r ap e f r u i t , y e s .
I ' ve been do ing i t for about a wee k and a
h a l f , e a t i n g o n l y grape f r u i t . "
" A we e k and a ha l f , o n ly
" Ye s , i t ' s a c lean s ing d i e t , and I ' m g o i n g t o
grap e frui t ! "
e a t grape f r u i t f o r t h r e e we e k s .
A n d i t ' s very good .
Grape ­
fru i t ' s ve ry de l ic i o u s r ight now and I en j oy i t . "
He d i dn ' t
look s t arve d o r anyth ing , h e looked q u i te normal and ve ry
we l l .
We l l , that even ing we had s at down at about ten o ' c lo c k .
By
two - th i r ty in the mo rning we were s t i l l s i t t in g around t he
t ab l e t a l k ing .
T he f i r s t que s t ion a f t e r h e t o l d u s about
the thre e -we e k g r ape f r u i t d i e t , e i ther Do r o t hy o r Ge rtrud
a sked , " What wi l l you do t o r e c over from that o r de a l ? "
63
" Then I go to the de s e r t for a c o up le o f we e k s and f a s t . "
That did i t .
We wer e f a s c inate d .
That eve n i ng he to l d u s
p r a c t i c a l l y the who l e s t o ry o f h i s l i fe .
H e wa s bo r n i n
C ze c ho s l o vak i a , one o f e ight c h i ldren .
They a l l d i e d ve ry
young and he h im s e l f was qu i te s ic k ly a s a c h i ld , and when
he w a s twe lve he met s ome I ndi an s in Pr ague .
Then he we n t
w i th them w i thout h i s p aren t s ' approva l to I n d i a t o s tudy
yoga .
Obvio u s ly they mu s t have to l d him some t h i ng abo ut i t .
He g o t very muc h i nte r e s ted and h e de s c r ibed t he who l e
t r a i n i n g they went through in I nd i a .
I t w a s very r igo rou s .
I won ' t go into d e t ai l s .
Howe ve r , s omething e l s e happened
that eve n in g dur ing the c o ur s e o f our four- and- a -ha l f -hour
t ab l e conve r s at io n .
He d i d not know any o f u s e xc ept ,
c a s u a l l y , t he vi o la p l ay e r .
Lew i s d i d not know any t hing
about t he c e l l i s t , only h i s n ame wh i c h was M i c hae l Ma lose k .
Dur ing that evening M a l o s e k ( p ronoun c e d Ma lcsh e k ) t o ld eve ry
one o f u s any me d i c al han d i c ap s we may have .
RB :
Ju s t by s i tt ing and wo r king with you ?
ON :
J u s t by s i t t i n g there and l o o k i n g at u s .
He p robab ly c o u l d
te l l b y o b s ervin g e i t he r t h e co lor o f our eye s o r t h e co l o r
o f t he sk in , m aybe by ob se rving han d s .
He to l d G e r t rud
abo ut he r b l adder a f f l i c t ion ; he had n eve r s e e n her b e f or e .
Ac tu a l ly , t h i s w a s to be the c a u s e o f her c an c e r y e ar s l at e r .
He to ld Do rothy , he t o l d me , he t o l d Lewi s .
We w e r e j u s t
f labberga s ted .
We found the who l e eve n ing very intere s t i n g ,
e ven though we n e ve r go t b a c k to p l aying another quartet .
But he s a id , " We l l , we ' l l have to p l ay another t ime . "
He
did e n j oy our p l ay i n g and we e n j oyed him , w i th the exc ept ion
o f t he f i r s t three ba r s .
Maybe he d i d that o n purpo s e ;
maybe he wanted to - - i f we p laye d very bad ly , he d idn ' t
I f we p l ay e d ve ry we l l ,
w an t to s t an d out a s a go o d p layer .
He d i d c ome fo r mo r e
he c o u l d ad j u s t to u s imme d i ate ly .
chamber mu s ic , a n d w e t r i e d to p lay r e gu l a r ly o n c e a wee k .
At t hat t i me I a l so p l aye d i n an amat eur o r c h e stra wh i c h
p laye d in a h igh s c ho o l on H i gh land Bou l evar d .
RB :
D i d i t h ave a n ame , t h i s o r c h e s t r a ?
ON :
Not that I r e c a l l .
I t was not the Do c t o r ' s Or c he s tr a , i n
wh ich I a l so p l ay e d f o r a t ime .
A t any r at e , I w e n t to r e ­
he ar s a l s once a we e k .
I en j oyed p laying i n an o r c h e s t r a
a l though c hamb e r mu s ic w a s much mo r e e n j oyab l e .
One day
Ma lo � e k s howed up t h e r e a l so an d we go t to t a l k in g .
I n the
meant ime we c o n t inued our c h amber mu s i c at home .
One eve n ing ,
j u s t be f o r e r eh e ar s a l t ime w i t h the o r c h e s tr a , Ma l o s e k c a l l e d
and s a id h i s c ar h a d broken down , whether I wou l d be k ind
e nough to t ake h im to the r ehe ar s a l in my c ar .
F o r the f ir s t
t ime I go t h i s ho u s e numbe r .
He l i ved o n Wo odrow Wi l son
Dr i ve ve ry c lo se to C ahuenga Boul evard .
S o I d rove down
thi s w ay to p i c k h im up .
S i n ce I d i dn ' t know e xa c t l y whe r e
h i s hou s e w a s , I drove q u i te s low ly l o o k i n g o u t f o r the
Then I d i s c o ve r ed
n umbe r , and o bvio u s ly h e mu s t have w atche d .
64
I t wa s a very s te e p h i ll s i de wi th s te p s
whe r e i t was .
l e ad i ng d own an d t h e property wa s s ur ro unde d b y a four o r
f ive - foot h i g h s tu c co w a l l .
T h e r e wa s a g at e and wh i le I
wa s lo o k ing for the numb e r I s aw h i m r unning down the
s t ai r s l e ading to the gate , but then h e ma de a s ho rt c ut
and r an down t h e h i l l with the c e l l o under h i s arm , and
i n s t e ad o f go ing t hrough t he gate - - I h ad p arked fa rt he r
down be l o w - - he j ump e d o ve r t he wa l l w i th the c e l l o and
He mus t have been in h i s s i xt ie s then .
r ight into the c ar .
Somehow o r o ther h e l o o k e d age le s s .
By the wr ink l e s in h i s
f ac e I wou l d h ave gue s s ed that h e was i n h i s mid- s i xt i e s .
Ve ry a g i l e .
We d rove to the r e h e a r s a l and , o f c o ur s e , o n
I s a id , " We l l ,
t he way t he r e w e had a c ha n c e t o t al k .
I c an e a s i ly
l i s ten , i t mak e s no s e n s e to t a ke two c ar s .
d r i ve by your hou s e , i t ' s p r ac t i c a l l y on my way .
I n s te ad
o f go ing that w ay , I can go t h i s way . "
He was qu i t e happy
about i t , why s ho u l d he w a s te g a s .
From then o n we drove
together to the r e he ars a l s .
The fo l lowing n e e d s a p r eamb l e .
I w a s ve ry much u se d to
The r e
go i n g in that dir e c t i o n when I wen t to H at f ie ld ' s .
w a s n o fre eway a t tha t t ime through C ahuenga P a s s , but
C ahuenga P a s s s p l i t at one po int , one s p l i t bec ame H ig h l a n d
a n d t he o t he r b e c ame C ahuenga B o u le va r d .
A n d u sua l l y when
I wen t to Hat f ie ld ' s it was mor e d i r e c t to go on C ahuenga
than o n H igh land .
One even ing when we went to the r e ­
he a r s a l together , we were t a l k ing and I w a s a b i t ab s e n t ­
minded a n d b e i n g u se d to go on C ahuenga mo r e f r eq u en t l y ,
I went i n that d i r e c t io n .
Only at t he l a s t momen t I r e ­
I
membe r e d , oh , we a r e go ing t o r e he a r s a l on H i gh land .
abrup t ly turned the c ar , i t s we r ve d a l i tt le and i t s t ar t l e d
Malo s e k a b i t .
I apo log i z e d .
He didn ' t mi nd , h e s ai d ,
It ' s
" We l l , your b r a i n i sn ' t fun c t io n ing the way i t s ho u l d .
a l l due to your f a u l ty b r e at h i n g .
One d ay I ' m go ing to
teach you how to breath e . "
I s a id , " That s ho u l d b e i n te r ­
I
wou
l
d
l
i
ke
to
know
."
He s a id , " I ' 1 1 come o ne
e sting .
day and t e ac h yo u how to br e athe . "
That w a s a l l .
We drove
to the rehear s al , we went back home aga in .
I n t he me ant ime
we p laye d c hamber mu s ic together s e ve r a l t ime s , but he n e ve r
s howed up fo r t he breathing l e s s o n .
An d o n e day I r eminded
him .
" L i s ten , I ' m r e a l ly inte r e s t ed in the s e bre a t h in g
e xer c i se s . "
He s a id , " Ye s , I ' l l come one day , I ' l l l e t you
know . "
I f in a l ly forgot about i t be c a u s e he never s howe d up .
I d i d not r emind him any more .
Then one sunny a f t e rnoon , Ge rtrud and I we r e both i n the
wo r k s hop wo rking , there wa s a knock a t the doo r , I l o o ked
and the r e w a s Mike Ma lo 1; e k .
" I ' m h e r e now . "
He h a d wal ke d
u p f r o m C ahuenga P a s s , j u s t on a " l i tt l e " wa lk o f f o u r mi l e s .
" I ' m go i ng to s how you how to br e a th e now . "
We a l l wen t to
the ho u s e .
H e e xp la i ne d .
" When you do thi s breat hing e xe r ­
c i se , you d o i t ful ly c o n s c i o u s , w i t h every bre ath you take
in you watch every bit o f air t ha t ente r s your lung s and
wher e i t ente r s and how i t enter s , and you breathe i n s lo w ly
65
o n s e ve n c o unts .
You ho l d your breath f o r s e ve n c o u n t s
and yo u e xha l e s low ly f o r s even c o un t s .
And you r e p e a t
t h i s fo r three minut e s dur i n g wh i c h t ime y o u f i x y o u r ey e
on one s p o t , l i ke t h i s dot on t he wh i t e wal l .
The b l a c k
dot o n the whi te w a l l wa s a p e nny h e put t he r e .
And y o u
You do t h i s three
th ink o f n o t h i n g but y o u r b r e a t h i n g .
t ime s a day , f i ft e e n m inute s be fore your me al s .
That
I t w a sn ' t , I c o u l dn ' t do i t .
sho ul d be e a sy , I t ho ught .
How do you know whe n the three m inute s are over , do I u s e
a s top wat c h ? A n a larm ?
" Y ou ' l l f i n d out how much three
m inut e s is e ventua l l y . "
Sure yo u f in d out , a f te r a wh i le .
A f t e r about two we e k s M a l o � e k c ame aga in .
I to l d h im we
did the b r e a t hing e xe r c i se s , even t ho ugh we c o u l dn ' t do it
prope r ly .
He s aid , " I ' m go i ng t o s how you another one n ow . "
Th i s o n e w a s s t anding up , and you had to r a i se your s e l f on
your to e s whi le inha l ing , s t and o n your to e s wh i l e you he l d
your b r e a t h a n d lower your s e l f t o your h ee l s , exha l in g .
I n do ing t h i s you a l so f i x your eye s o n the p e nny .
Aga in ,
" I n s te a d
you do th i s for three m inute s three t ime s a day .
o f t he o t h e r one ? "
" No , i n addi t ion to the other one . "
Okay , I gue s s we c an sp are t hr e e time s s i x minu t e s a day .
S o we d i d th i s ve ry r e l i g io u s ly and , two we e k s l a t e r ,
Ma l o se k c ame aga i n , very punc tua l l y .
He s howe d u s a t h i r d
S o " b r e a t h i n g t ime "
exerc i se , i n add i t ion t o the other two .
grew to three t ime s n i ne minute s p e r day .
A l to ge t h e r h e
eventua l ly s howed u s s i x b re a t hing e xe rc i se s .
A s we p r o gr e s se d , he wan t e d u s to do va r io u s s t re t c h ing ex­
e r c i s e s and of c ou r s e n e i th e r of u s , e ven Ge rt r ud who w a s
muc h mo r e f l ex i bl e t h a n I , c o u l d d o any o f t hem c o r r e c t ly .
She c o u l d bend down though , and touch h e r to e s wi t h her
I t r ie d an d got j u s t a l i tt l e b e l ow
f inge r s ; I co u l dn ' t .
my kne e s when I bent down to touch my to e s .
But we both
cont inued to p r ac t i c e the var i o u s br e a t h in g and s tr e t c h i n g
exerc i se s .
Then o n e day Ma los e k c ame an d s aid , " No w , i t
i s t ime for y o u t o s t an d up s ide down .
Not j ust on your
I ' l l show y ou . "
I was
s ho u l de r s , but s t and on your head .
ve ry doubt f u l o f t he i d e a and s ai d , " I may l o o k young , b u t
I ' m t h i r ty - s even ye ar s o ld . "
" Do n ' t t al k about a g e .
You
s t and o n your h e a d .
I ' ll he l p you up . "
So he d i d .
Wi th
great d i f f i c u l ty I got my l eg s up with h i s h e l p .
" S e e , you
An d
c an s t and on your head , " and he held me by my f e et .
It
t he n he l e t go , and I wen t down l i ke a bag o f f lour .
was impo s s i bl e , I c o u l dn ' t d o i t .
" We l l , " h e s a i d , " yo u
c an d o what ever you l i ke .
I ' ve s hown y o u a few t h i n g s .
I f you are inte r e s t e d , you w i l l conti nue ; i f not , wha t c an
I do ?
You won ' t f e e l any imme d i at e sen se o f improve me n t ;
i f s ome thing a i l s you i t won ' t d i s appear immed i at e ly , but
I ' ve shown you the s e e xe r c i s e s and if you want to you c an
go on and i f you don ' t w an t to , you won ' t go on . "
The s tr e t c h ing e xer c i s e s f e l t goo d , s o we c o n t i nued do ing
t hem .
Then I t r ie d to s t and o n my he ad and f in a l l y
I f I did i t i n the ha l lw ay
managed t o get my l e g s up .
66
wh i c h i s j u s t a l i t t le o ve r three f e e t wide , I c o u l d l e a n
a g a in s t the wal l an d c r aw l up w i t h my f e e t on the oppo s i te
I could
w a l l , and if I fe l l over I c o u l dn ' t fa l l ve ry far .
e a s i ly c o n t r o l my s e l f t h a t way , even my bac k .
And that wa s
And then a f t e r a wh i le I f e l t that I
t he w ay I s t ar t e d .
c o u l d s t and f r e e l y w i thout l e an i n g aga i n s t the w a l l , even i f
o n l y f o r a few s ec o n d s .
And , l o and b e ho ld , I kept o n do ing
it -- not q u i t e a s re l ig i o u s ly a s I do it now , j u s t a f ew
And o n e d ay I n o t i c e d that I d i dn ' t h ave
minute s e very d ay .
any o f t ho s e bad h e a da c h e s that had b e e n p l ag u i n g me f o r
I u s e d to h ave t e r r i b l e
y e ar s .
They w e r e comp le t e ly gone .
s inu s he ada c he s , t hey u s ua l l y c ame o n wh en the f o g r o l l e d
in from t h e b e ac h .
Th ey s t ar t e d a s a r u l e an hour b e f o r e
t h e fo g a r r i ve d .
Some t ime s I h a d to l i e down , a n d j u s t l i ke
anyone e l s e I u s ed to t ake a s pi r in to r e l i e ve t he headac he .
S ince Gertrud
a l so b e c ame intere s ted i n do ing yog a , we both
p r a c t i c e d tog e the r .
And then I got s o me bo o k s , and we
l e a r n e d mo r e about i t .
About f i ve ye a r s l a t e r I r e a l ly
c o u l d f e e l t hat i t wo u l d b e very bene f ic i a l t o cont inue .
Ten ye ar s a f t e r I s t ar t e d I wa s convinced i t w a s a wonde r ­
f u l r e g ime and anybo dy s h o u l d d o i t .
RB:
A wonde r fu l what ?
ON :
A wo nder ful r e g ime , t o do i t e ve ry day .
a day i n my l i fe wi thout it s in c e then .
RB :
That ' s at l e a s t t h i rty y e ar s .
ON :
S ince 1 9 4 7 - - t h i r ty - t hr e e year s , y e s .
RB :
B e f o r e I i n t e r rup t e d you when you we r e s t ar t ing to t a lk
abo ut the compe t i t io n , I wa s fa s c ina t e d by t he mu s i c , s o
that ' s why I went back t o i t .
Y o u s t ar t e d t o s ay i n the
m i d d l e o f the di s c u s s io n abo u t the quartet about e n t e r ing
the annua l compet i t io n s in c e r amic s .
ON :
Oh ye s , b a c k t o c e r amic s .
At that t ime we ente red wo rk in
any e xh i b i t ion to which we were invi te d .
After that f i r s t
succ e s s in 1 9 3 9 when we won f i r s t pr i z e fo r o ur group o f
f i ve p i e c e s in t he N at i o n a l C e r amic Exh i b i t io n , the fo l ­
low i ng y e ar we al so won a p r i ze , and a l s o the y e ar f o l lowing
tha t .
Then dur ing the war the s e exh i b i t io n s we r e i n t e r ­
rupted .
They w e r e r e s umed in 1 9 4 6 a n d w e e n t e r e d aga i n .
That y e a r we won another pr i z e .
Howeve r , in 1 9 4 7 when I
tho ught we had a wo nder ful c o l l ec t ion o f f ive p i e c e s , the
best p i e c e o f the f i ve ( at l e as t in my o p i nion ) wa s r e j e c t e d
by t h e l o c a l j ury .
RB :
Here in Lo s Ange l e s o r r e g i on a l ?
ON :
The r e g iona l j ury .
The r e w a s a r e g i o n a l j ury f o r Lo s Ange l e s
and a s e p arate one f o r S an Franc i sc o .
( I t wa s the L o s
Ange le s j ury t h a t r e j e c te d that p ie c e . )
I w a s f ur iou s .
The r e h a s n ' t been
67
I wa s r e a l l y fur i o u s bec ause i t w a s a ve ry goo d p i e c e .
As
a m at t e r o f f a c t , I s t i l l t hink i t i s a very go od p i ec e ,
I w a s s o fur i o u s
and I d ec ided to keep i t i n my c o l l ec t ion .
that I a s ke d to withdraw , bec au s e I d i dn ' t want t h e o t h e r
p i ec e s to b e s hown .
I thus w r o t e to S yr a c u s e an d t h e
d i r e c to r o f the S yr a c u s e Mu s e um wro t e b a c k a n d s ai d I s ho u l d
s end e veryth ing d i r e c t ly there and they w i l l e xh i b i t i t .
I d i dn ' t l i ke the i d e a , but that w a s Anna O lms t e ad , a n d I
did no t w an t t o o f fend he r .
She h ad b e e n d i r e c to r o f the
S yr ac u s e Mu s e um for m an y ye a r s and she w a s o bvi ou s ly very
muc h i n t e r e s t e d in c e r amic s and qu i te f ami l i ar with our work .
They had some o f i t in the i r permanent c o l l e c t io n , f o r eve ry
t ime we won a purchase pr i z e , the Eve r son p iec e s went to t he
Mu s eum .
I didn ' t wan t to ac t l i ke a p r ima donn a , s o I p a c k e d
t h e p i e c e s an d s ent them d i r ec t ly t o Syracu s e whe re t hey we r e
e xh i b i t e d .
Howe ve r , they didn ' t go o n the c ir c u i t to t he
other mu s eums .
We d i d c o n t inue t o s end wo r k to Syr a c u s e and ,
dur in g the c o ur s e o f the y e ar s , we won two mo r e pr i ze s there .
I n the me ant ime o t h e r m u s e um s bec ame i ntere s t e d in our wor k ,
probab l y t hrough Hat f ie ld who had c on t ac t w i t h qu i t e a
numbe r o f mus e um p e o p le t hrough h i s g a l l e ry .
H i s g a l l e ry
had an e xc e l l en t reputat ion ; at the t ime i t w a s i n s trumen t a l
in introduc i n g F rench i mpr e s s io ni sm t o Lo s Ange le s .
He w o u l d
have e xh i bi t s o f Rouau l t , V l aminc k , S o ut ine , a n d one c o u l d
buy the i r p a i n t i n g s fo r a f ew hundred do l l ar s .
You know what
h appene d to t he a r t marke t , I don ' t have to t e l l you .
B ut
Lo s Ange le s w a s a to ugh town and he had to i ntro duc e a rt to
t he peop l e and h e had to t alk about i t , an d he was very c on ­
vinc ing .
He loved art and h e c o u l d t r an smit h i s own e n ­
t hu s i asm t o h i s c l ie nt s .
S e ve r a l t ime s H at f ie ld w a s i n s tru­
men t a l in arr anging a one -man e xhib i t i o n for u s .
I reca l l
one a t the Art Center i n La Jo l l a whi c h w a s q u i te c o mp r e ­
hen s i ve , another one a t the Jo s lyn Ar t Mu s eum in Omaha .
I n 1 9 5 6 we were approa c hed by Do c t o r S h l omo B ar d i n , d i r e c t o r
Mo s t
o f the Brande i s I n s t i t ute in S an t a Su s ana , C a l i fo rn i a .
peop le mi s t ak e i t for Brand e i s U n i ve r s ity in t he E a s t , but
the o n ly conn e c t ion i t had w a s that both we r e n amed a f t e r
the l a t e Ju s t i c e Brande i s , a n d they are both gene r a l l y
Jewi s h educ at iona l i n s t i t u t i o n s .
The main ac t i vi ty t he r e
we r e s umme r c amp s e s s io n s for young peop l e , and dur ing the
r e s t o f t he ye ar they h e l d weekend in s t itute s fo r adu l t s .
S h l omo B ardin w a s a very dyn amic p e r s o n , inter e s ted m ai n ly
in Jud a i sm and wha t he c o u l d do for Jew s to make them mor e
He w a s the founder o f the
con s c i o u s o f the i r her i t age .
in s t i tute in Santa Su sana .
A p art of the c u r r i c u l um dur ing
the s ummer were wo r k s ho p s that t he youn g peo p l e could attend .
I don ' t r e c a l l who i t was , but someone who knew our w o r k
s ugg e s t e d to Sh lomo t h a t h e s ho u l d g e t u s f o r h i s c e r am i c
So one day S h lomo B ar d i n c ame to s e e
wo r k shop at the c amp .
u s and look at o ur work a n d he s eeme d q u i t e inte re s t e d in i t .
I was somewhat doubt ful whether we wou l d be the r i ght p e o p le
for that pro j ec t , but I wo u l d love to s e e what k ind o f
68
f a c i l i t i e s we wo u l d h ave i n S an t a S u s an a .
He i nvi ted u s
I found i t ve ry inte r e s t i ng .
At
for an a du l t i n s t itut e .
Ma x w as a
the t i me Max He l fmann wa s a l i ve , an d Be n -Ar i .
mus i c i an who c o u l d t e a c h , a s Gertrud
s ai d , a s tone to s in g
i n tun e .
B e n -Ar i w a s an a c to r who headed the dram a wor k ­
The re w a s a dance wo r k shop and th ere w a s a
s hop t he r e .
s o r t o f a r t s and c r af t s wo r k shop , wh i c h w a s p r o bably the
poo r e s t one .
Sh lomo in p e r s o n gave u s a c omp l e te tour o f
t he c amp an d showe d u s an o l d barn and s aid , " You know , thi s
ba rn h a s been s t an d ing empty for so lon g , we w i l l l e t you
We bo t h f e l l
have it an d you c an have your wo r k s hop h e re . "
i n love with the c oun t ry t he r e .
The b arn w a s at t h e
" f r inge o f s o c i e ty , " a s w e e xp r e s se d i t , b e c a u s e i t w a s t he
l a s t bu i ld i ng , ad j o i ni ng t he ne xt property , p r a c tic al l y
w i thin one foot from the prop e r ty l i n e .
I n o ther word s , t he
cows o f our ne i ghbor we r e g r a z ing r ight in front o f the barn .
I t w a s q u i t e a b i g barn , w i th open w indow s , with no g l a s s .
S h lomo promi sed to put g la s s in , bec au s e otherw i s e we c o u l d
I s a i d the r e wou ld be too muc h dra f t .
not wo r k t he r e .
Then I had to prepare an e s t im at e for h im o f a l l tha t wou l d
be ne eded to furni s h t h e wo r k s hop .
When h e approve d i t a l l ,
we wen t around s hopp ing for a l arger k i ln .
We had t h r e e
p o t t e r ' s whe e l s bu i l t b y a c a rpente r , and t h e n a f r i e nd o f
Then we o rde re d c l ay
o u r s d i d the mec han ic a l wo r k on t hem .
and g l a z e mater i a l s and by the b e g inning o f the s e a son we
we r e s t i l l i n t he proce s s o f s e t t ing up the equ ipme n t , and
th � f i r s t s tude n t s we had mai nly he lped u s , but wha t e ve r
wo r k t hey d i d neve r got f ir e d bec au s e the k i ln wa sn ' t con ­
nected .
Only by the end o f that f ir s t summe r when t h e
S in c e
s tudent s l e f t w a s every t h i n g i n working c o n d it i o n .
we h a d s pe n t so muc h t ime t h e r e j u s t s upervi s in g and s e t t ing
up , we s ai d we ' d l i ke to s t ay a bit longe r and do s ome wo r k
and r e al ly u s e t h e equipment .
I t was i d e al b e c au s e by that
t ime p r ac t ic a l ly e ve rybody had l e f t , and we h a d the who l e
two tho u s an d ac r e s inc lud i ng the l arge swimming poo l t o our ­
I t w a s j u s t p la in ide al .
We had comp l et e f r e edom .
s e lve s .
I to ld Sh lomo that we wou l d not accept any s al a ry f o r our
t e ac h in g , our compen s at io n wou l d b e the u s e of the w o r k shop
S o for
and wha t e ve r mater i a l s we u s ed to do o ur own wo r k .
t h e ne xt f i ve y e a r s w e we nt there , u s ua l ly towards the e n d
o f May , a n d s t ayed unt i l the c o l d we ath e r s e t in .
During
the two s umme r mo nth s w e had anywhe re f r om f i ve to f i fteen
young peop l e working w i th u s .
RB :
What happened to a l l o f t hem ?
ON :
I know only o f one whom we introduced to c l ay wh o kept up
pro f e s s iona l ly .
RB :
Who was tha t ?
ON :
He r n ame i s Ro s a lyn He imbe r g .
I fo rgot what h e r maiden n ame
I s aw her once in Be rke ley where she l ived .
S he n e ve r
was .
invi ted me t o h e r wo r k s hop , b u t she to l d me s h e en j oy s
69
wor king in c e rm ai c s - - s emi-pro fe s s io na l ly .
and ha s a coup l e o f c h i ldren .
She i s marr i e d
I t d i d n o t mat t e r to u s how many young peop l e c ame to j o i n
our wo r k s hop .
I t was a n i n t er e s t i ng expe r i en c e f o r u s to
open the i r ey e s .
You know how young p e o p l e go around w i t h
wide o p e n eye s , w i t hout s e e ing , a n d having to b e to l d what
a l e a f l o o k s l ike , or a f lowe r .
We had s ome o f our wo r k on
But when
d i sp lay , wh ich went unnot i c e d mo s t o f the time .
we s howed pho t o g r ap h s -- we gave a c o up l e o f l e c ture s e very
y e ar with s l ide s and s ome t ime s I s howed e n l a r gement o f g l a z e
te xtur e s - - and a l l o f a s udden k i d s from a l l over c ame who
wan ted to s ee what the o r ig ina l p i e c e s r e al ly looked l i ke .
I t w a s very grat i fy i ng to s e e that we opened up a new e x­
p e r ience fo r m any o f them .
Onc e in a wh i l e we got a budding
a r c h i t e c t to j o in u s who wanted t o use h i s h a n d s to do s ome ­
t h in g .
As a who l e , we bo th found i t an inter e s t i n g e x­
per ience .
Dr . B ardin w a s a very inte r e s ting man and we admired h im fo r
h i s know ledge , m a in ly c o n c e r n i n g Jew i s h a f f a i r s , but a l so
h i s wo r ld ly knowl edge .
But he a l s o w a s a de s p o t and a
d ic t ato r .
I c omp ared him - - not r e a l l y t o H i t ler - - but
h i s manne r r em i nded me very muc h o f Lyndon Jo hn son .
Ve ry
high- handed some t ime s , eve rything h a d to be done e xa c t ly
And he wa s no t alway s p l e a s an t w i t h
the w ay he w an t e d i t .
h i s deman d s .
Ge r t rud h a t e d h im for t h a t r e a s o n .
She
a dm i r e d him fo r what he did , b u t a s a p e r son , a s a h uman
b e ing , she d i s l i ke d him int e n s e ly .
And in 1 9 6 0 it c ame to
the p o i n t wher e both p art i e s fe l t we shou l d bet te r p art .
We regretted i t bec au s e we love d the c ountry , we lo ve d our
e ven ing w a lk s on 2 , 0 0 0 ac r e s , i n p e ac e and qu ie t , there
wa s n ' t a sound t hen .
N o h i ghway n o i s e bec au s e there w a s a
l i t t le mount ain r ange b e tween the h i ghway and the c amp .
And the n ights we r e so quie t e xc ep t f o r the Roc ketdyne p lant
The
way up in the h i l l s , whe r e they te s te d r o c k e t e n g i n e s .
f ir s t t ime we h e a r d t hi s we we r e s ho c k e d .
Ro c k e tdyne w a s
q u i t e c l o s e - - maybe two o r three mi l e s away a s t h e c r ow
f l i e s - - and open sp ac e ; they we r e up on t h e h i l l and we
we r e down in the val l ey .
I t was a f r ight e n i n g sound � an d
at n i ght i t w a s not j u s t the sound , i t looked l i ke G � t t e r ­
d arnme run g .
The r e was a ve ry b r i ght l i ght t h a t l it u p t h e
who l e landsc ape for mi le s w i t h an eer i e g low .
Other t h a n t h a t
Ope n f i e l d s - - on s ome
S ant a S u s ana w a s c omp lete ly pea c e f u l .
o f wh i c h tre e s were p lante d , wh i c h by now are grown .
Later
t hey a l so had l i v e s to c k .
They a lway s kept ho r s e s , fo r s ome
o f the k i d s took r i d i ng le s s o n s .
We j u s t loved the rura l
We d id some o f our be s t wo r k there , e sp e c i al ly
atmo sphere .
a f t e r s ummer s e a s o n wh en eve rybody l e f t , inc luding D r . B ar d i n ,
who u sua l l y went on a t r ip , some t ime s to I s rae l whe r e h e
s t ay e d for two o r t hr e e month s .
I t was idy l l i c .
From 1 9 3 9 unt i l the l a t e fort i e s we had a ve ry a c t i ve com­
merc i a l out l e t in S an Fr anc i sc o :
Amber g - H i rth .
Erne s t Amberg
70
w a s S w i s s , and H ugh Hir th was Ame r ic an but ve ry fon d o f the
Swis s .
He l i ke d to s pe ak S c hwe i z e r de u t s c h wh i c h s ounded
The two went back to S wi t z e r land i n the e a r ly
very funny .
f i ft i e s an d s e t t led i n Z u r ic h .
We kept up a c o r r e s ponde nc e ,
o n c e o r twic e a y e ar we wro te e ac h other l o ng l e tt e r s o f a l l
that happene d .
We had a good r e l a t io n sh ip w i th them b e c a u s e
they we r e p r a c t i c a l ly o u r fir s t out l e t , a n d the y we r e very
So i t w a s not
encour ag ing at a t ime when nobo dy e l s e w a s .
too surp r i s i ng that we kept up a c o r re spondenc e , and one day
they wro t e us tha t we shou l d c o me to the o l d c o untry an d s e e
Zur ich aga i n .
I wro t e back , " We l l , E rne s t , i f yo u a rr an g e
an e xh i b i t i o n in a mu se um i n Swi t z e r land fo r u s , we ' l l b e
de l i ghted to c ome .
A t l e a s t we ' l l have a purpo s e , a n d i t
wi l l m ak e t he t r i p i n p art tax dedu c t i bl e . "
Whe reupon I g o t
an enthu s i as t i c l e t t e r b a c k a ft e r a we e k o r two , a n d he wr o te ,
" When I go t your l e t t e r I thought o f s e ve r a l m u seum s and
f i n a l ly I thought the b e s t wou l d be to c o n t ac t the Kun s t ­
I intended to c al l them , a f te r l o o k i n g up
gewe r be Mus eum .
a l l the c ata log s you h a d s e nt me , so I c ou l d t e l l t hem a l l
about y o u .
I w a s very surpr i se d , when I mentioned y o ur n ame
an d a s ke d whe ther they wou l d l i ke an e x h i b i t ion , to h e a r
the i r r e spo n s e , ' Oh , w e know who t h e y a r e .
W e h ave r e a d
abo ut t hem i n t h e m ag a z ine s . '
And t hey wou l d be de l ig h t e d
to h ave an e xh i b i t ion o f y o u r wor k . " E rn e s t w a s e l a t e d an d
wro t e , " Yo u ' l l hea r f rom them d i r ec t ly in the n e ar future . "
t he
We d i d , and we agr e e d o n a date for the e xh i bi t ion :
s pr i ng o f 1 9 5 9 .
B e fo r e then , in 1 9 5 8 , we me t Dr . Ka i se r ,
and h e g ave u s an exh i b i t ion at the Jewi s h Mu s e um i n New Y o r k .
A l so at that t ime s omebo dy ha d int roduc e d u s to the I sr a e l i
c o n s u l in L o s Ange l e s , an d he a r ranged an e xh i b i t i on at t he
S in c e our b e s t
o l d B e z al e l Nat iona l Mu s e um in Jeru s a l em .
f r i e n d s from Vienna l ived i n I s r a e l [ t he l awy er abo ut whom
I spo ke e a r l i e r , who got Gertrud o ut o f the me s s w i th
Mr . I s kr a ] , we p lanned on t rave l i ng t he r e w i t h t he e xh i b i t ion .
Our f r ie nd Fr i t z Kr a sny w a s a l awy e r , h i s wi fe a g a r dene r .
They s t arted a f a rm in I s r ae l , and that w a s a d i s a s t e r .
I
s t i l l r emembe r a l e t t e r he wro te about a c a l f they h a d r a i se d ,
with whom they got too we l l acquainte d , and when they h a d t o
t ake i t t o t h e m arke t , t hey both c r ied f o r day s about wha t
they d i d to th i s poor thing .
They d i s c o ve r ed that they w e r e
comp lete ly un f i t fo r f a rmin g , so h e b e c ame m ayor o f H e r z l i ah ,
a s uburb o f Te l Av i v .
She did s ome ve getab l e ga r de n i ng a t
When we wro t e them
home and d i d gardening f o r other peopl e .
that we were go ing to have an e xh i b i t i o n in Je ru s al em , they
were ove r j oyed and they invited u s to s t ay with them i n
Her z l i ah .
I n October 1 9 5 8 , a f t e r having p ac k e d p art o f the e xh i b i t ion
t o be shipped d i r e c t ly to Swi t z e r l a n d , we to o k the o t h e r s in
our s t at io n wagon and drove to New Yo r k .
I n the me ant ime
the date for the N ew York e xh i b i t ion was changed , and we
ar r anged to s h ip di ff erent p i ec e s through Ha t f ie ld .
We h a d
them p ac ked b y B e k in s , a n d t h a t b e c ame a ne a r - d i s as t e r be ­
c a u s e o f the s i xty o r s e ve nty p ie c e s we had se l e c t e d , e ig ht
71
It
o r n i n e o f t he mo s t imp o r t ant one s a r r i ve d s ha t t e r e d .
was comp le t e l y un f o r g i vab l e , t ho ugh Hat f i e ld was t o b l ame
o n ly for l e t t i ng Bek i n s p ac k them .
( It wa s ne c e s s ary to
go t o c o urt a f t e rward s to s e t t l e o ur c l a im for the d amage . )
Dr . K a i s e r w a s be s ide h ims e l f when he opened the c o n t a i ne r s
i n New Yo rk , and h e c a l l ed whi l e we we r e s t i l l at B r a n d e i s ,
and I s a i d , " We l l , we c an ' t r e p l a c e t ho s e p i ec e s , b ut we ' l l
Mo s t o f t he broken wo r k s were
s en d y o u the be s t we have . "
ve ry l a r ge .
Wh at we s e n t w a s very much d i f f e r ent and s e c on d
c ho i c e .
At t ha t t ime I dec i de d to p ac k t he m at e r i a l f o r the Z u r i c h
e xhib i t i o n my s e l f .
I p ac ke d e ve rything in c arton s a n d then
took them to B r ug g e r s to have t hem c ra t e d for s hipmen t o ve r ­
seas .
We t o o k another c o l l e c t i o n o f smal l e r p i ec e s w i t h u s ,
t o s how s o me o f our wo rk t o peop l e wh i le on o u r t r ip .
We
dec i d e d to go by b o a t from N ew Yo r k to I s r a e l and we t o o k
the s t at i on wagon a long .
I t w a s a R ambl e r , n o t a h u g e c a r ,
b ut anything Ame r i c an wa s s t i l l ve ry b i g f o r Europ e .
At the l a s t moment we we r e advi s e d by t he I s r ae l i c on s ul i n
New Yo r k t h a t i t w a s not ve ry w i s e t o t ake a n a utomob i l e t o
We then
I s r ae l b e c a u s e a l l s o r t s o f t h i n g s c o u l d happen .
dec i de d to drop t he c ar o f f at Nap le s , put it i n a ga r a ge
We t rave le d o n an
t h e r e and p ic k i t up on the w ay b a c k .
I s rae l i bo at wh i c h wa s an e xp e r i en c e in i t s e l f and f i n a l l y
we g o t to N ap l e s .
I t w a s an emo t io n a l event t o s e t foot on
E urope a g a i n .
Some I t a l ian s ac ted a s gui de s at the p i e r ,
and I t al k e d to one o f them and he t o o k me t o a garage .
It
w a s my f i r s t " European " e xp er i ence .
The g a rage own e r a s ke d
m e to d r i ve the c ar in a c o r n e r o f the g a r a g e , a n d I dro ve
into the c o rne r I w a s s hown and l e f t enough room to get o u t
o n the l e f t s i de , whe reupon he s aid , " Yo u c an ' t l e a ve the
car here and waste t ha t muc h s p ac e ! "
He drove t he c a r i n
by h ims e l f a n d t h e r e w a s about a n i n c h a n d a ha l f o f s pac e
on t hat s i de and b etween t he wa l l o f the g a r a g e .
I knew ,
I was
at l ea s t , the door c ou l dn ' t be opene d on that s ide .
al l owed t o loc k i t and t ake t h e key with me , a n d I t h i nk he
c harged us twe nty do l la r s a month , wh i c h wa s outrageo u s at
that t ime .
The guide s ai d when we come back to Nap l e s and
wou l d l i ke to have h i s s e r vic e s , he wou l d be ve ry h a ppy to
me e t us at the boat .
He wo u l d t ake us to the garage , get
the c ar out or wha t e ve r e l s e we w anted done .
I s a i d that
w a s ve ry nice an d h e gave me h i s c ar d .
I t w as an I t a l i an
name with a s t r ange midd l e n ame :
Levi .
I t was quite ob­
vio u s he had c a rds p r in t e d with t h a t midd l e n ame when e ve r
he wen t to an I s rae l i bo at .
I r ec a l l wh en the boat l anded
on the way bac k , he wa s s t and ing the r e with other g u i de s .
He reco gn i zed me and I w ave d to h im a l so .
A f t e r g e t t ing u s
o f f the bo at a n d t hrough c us toms h e g u i d e d u s out o f N ap l e s
t o P ompe i .
I t hink I sho u l d te l l you about I s r ae l f ir s t .
I s r ae l w a s
very intere s t ing .
We ha d a l l k in d s o f l e t t e r s o f r e c omme n ­
dat ion from the c o n s u l a t e , both i n Lo s Ang e l e s a n d i n N e w
Yo r k .
I n New Y o r k they to l d u s that one part i c u l a r m an - -
72
an art i s t ?
RB :
ON :
who was w i t h the m u s e um , wo u l d b e a t the port i n H a i fa
when the bo at a r r i ve d , and he wou l d get u s t hrough c u s toms .
I sr ae l i c u s toms o ff ic e r s c an b e q u i t e d i f f ic u l t at t ime s .
That was what t he y to ld u s in New Y o r k .
RB :
No t C a r l Kat z .
ON :
No , no , C ar l Kat z we me t l a t e r on , but o n that t r i p we
d idn ' t me e t h i m .
The m an who c ame to me e t u s wa s Jon a
H e c ame i n s te a d o f somebody e l se who w a s s uppo s e d
F i s he r .
t o c ome .
Whe n we a r r i ved i n H a i fa i t w a s very c o l d bec a u s e
i t w a s the day be fore C hr i s tma s .
O n t he bo at Getrud h a d
c aught a c o l d a n d I fe l t some t h i n g c oming on too , and t h e r e
w e were s t anding in a ha l f-open s p ac e and i t was w i ndy and
We h a d four l arge
r a iny , and it too k hours to c le a r u s .
c artons w i t h c e ramic s , and we to l d them we had an exh ib i t ion
at t he Be z a l e l Mu s e um , and the s e are the o bj ec t s we are
go ing to exh ib it , and I showed them the c o r re spo nde n c e .
They s a id , " No , we have to c al l s o - an d - s o - - . "
Mr . F i she r
who w a s suppo s e d to he l p u s w a s s t an d i n g there w i t ho ut say­
ing a wo rd .
Our f r i e n d s from Her z l i ah had come to p i c k u s
up and we wer e c o n ve r s ing through a f en c e b e c a u s e they
c o u l dn ' t c ome in an d we c o u l dn ' t get out .
F i n a l ly one o f
the c u s toms o ff ic e r s c ame and s ai d , " We have to e xami n e
what ' s i n the s e bo xe s . "
" Yo u me an we have to unp a c k every ­
" Y e s , yo u ' l l have to unpack eve ryth ing . "
I c o u l dn ' t
t hing ? "
s pe ak Heb r ew .
They s po ke E ng l i s h , but among them s e lve s t hey
s po ke Hebrew , s o we didn ' t know what the i r conve r s at ion w a s .
We s t ar t e d unp ac k ing .
He t o o k one p ie c e o u t and s aid , " I ' m
go ing t o t ake t h i s in , I have to show i t to my s up e r i o r . "
Then he wanted to s e e another p ie c e an d d i s appe ared w i t h i t .
I t to o k , I t hin k , f i ve ho ur s , s t an d i n g there and arguing
and t al k i n g unt i l they f ina l ly c omp l e t e d the i r p ap e rwo rk and
let us go .
Our f r i e n d s got a t ax i and Mr . F i s he r went home
to Je r u s a lem .
He d idn ' t open h i s mouth at a l l dur ing t h i s
He m ay j u s t a s we l l have s t ay e d
e n t i r e c us toms p r o c edur e .
home , b ut h e s a id , " We ' 1 1 b e i n touch w i th yo u , " and o ur
f r ie n d s gave h im the i r t e l e p hone number whe r e we c o u l d be
reached , and that w a s i t .
RB :
He t o o k the p iece s w i th h im to J e r u s a l em ?
ON :
No , we had the p i e c e s .
We t o o k e verything with u s in the
taxi .
The fo l l ow in g day they c a l l e d and f in a l l y m ade
a rran gement s to get the c e ramic s .
I n t h e me ant ime E l i sh e v a
Co hen c a l l e d - - d i d y o u meet her ?
RB :
No .
ON :
Anyway , s he was r e spo n s i b l e f o r the exh i b i t ion , and she w a s
very p le a s ant a n d i t w a s ve ry go od wo r k i ng w i t h h e r .
S he
spo ke Ge rm an , E ng l i sh and Hebrew .
We f ina l ly arri ve d i n
73
Jer u s a l em and s t ayed at a hote l there .
The Be z a l e l w a s
They u s e d some smal l p o r t a b l e e l ec t r ic he ate r s
no t hea t e d .
i n var io u s rooms , and i t w a s ve ry c o l d .
W e b o t h t r i ed to
help with the s e t t ing up of t he s ho w .
They had some ve ry
ant iqua ted c as e s , but they were adequate and we did the
b e s t we c ould .
I lo ved t he c i ty and the s ur ro un d i ng s .
I
love d the m u s e um , t he bu i l d i ng i t s e l f , but I w a s unh appy
And the ne xt t h i n g I k new ,
about the c o l d in s ide and o ut .
I had a t e r r i b le f lu and had to s t ay i n be d .
When the e x­
h i b i t ion opened I wa s s t i l l very s ic k and I c o u l dn ' t a t t e n d
the open ing .
Howe ve r , Gertrud w a s a l l r i ght and she
attended the open ing .
She wa s o ve r whe lmed by t he r e spon s e
o f the I s r ae l i s , a n d a l o t o f Ge rm an s , Au s tr i an s and o t he r
m i d d l e E urope an s who we re there .
Many o f t hem , s he t o l d me ,
had t e a r s in the ir ey e s .
Among other s , we me t some p e o p l e
whom we h a d known be fore , who knew o f u s whi l e we s t i l l
l i ved i n Vie nna .
I t w a s a very grat i fy i ng e xpe r ie nc e .
We we r e s uppo s e d to g i ve a lec ture w i th s l id e s at t he
Be z a l e l , but the s l ide pro j ec to r f r om the mus eum d idn ' t
wo r k .
So when the lec ture s t ar t e d o n e man in the aud i e n c e
s a id he h a d a s l ide pro j ec to r a t home , and a f t e r about h a l f
a n hour o r f o rty - f i ve minu t e s h e brought i t an d t he l e c ture
went o n with s l ide s .
At t hat t ime we me t Dr . S ch i f f , t he d i r e c t o r o f the Mu s e um
o f Mo dern Art in Ha i fa , who c ame to s e e t he exh i b i t ion and
s a id he wo u ld l i ke , i f at a l l po s s i b l e , to show it i n Ha i fa
a l so .
S i n c e our s t ay in I sr ae l w a s l imited to three mo r e
we e k s , he s aid h e wou l d p ut u p the s how dur in g that t ime
I t was fa s t wo r k , but he d i d a f a i r ly
fo r a ten -day p e r i o d .
n i c e i n s t al l a t ion in Ha i fa .
He had po s t e r s pr inted wh i c h
went u p a l l over town .
L i ke a l l vi s i to r s , I found J e r u s a l em beaut i fu l , even t ho ugh
at that t ime we c o u l dn ' t g e t to the o ld c i ty .
The o l d c i ty
But I d i s l i ke d Te l
was s t i l l Arab and beyond the borde r .
Avi v he ar t i ly , both a s to c l imate and al so a s a c i ty at
that t ime .
H a i fa wa s love ly , except that the c l imate w a s
We were the r e at the end o f January and t h e
ve ry hum i d .
b e g i n n i n g o f February ; i t w a s q u i t e warm a n d humid a t t h at
time .
By c o ur t e sy o f the F o re i gn O f f i c e we we r e t aken on a t o ur
through the G a l i l e e and S a f e d and t he Hul l a h V a l ley wh i c h
was beaut i fu l .
W e t o o k m any photo graphs an d when I h a d
abo ut t h i rty p ic tur e s in t he c ame r a , my c amer a d i s appe are d ;
i t w a s sto l en out o f the ho t e l in Ha i fa .
That w a s a g r e at
sho c k b e c a u s e a l l the p i c ture s I t o o k a t Arbe we r e lo s t ;
a l so lo s t were at l e a s t ten o r f i f t e e n s ho t s o f t he G a l i l e e
and S afed .
A f r i end o f ou r s was k i n d an d t r u s t i ng t o l en d
u s h e r Le i c a t o u s e during t he r e s t o f t h e t r ip .
74
A f t e r t he e xhib i t io n i n Ha i fa we l e f t I s r ae l and we n t back
by bo at to N ap le s and p i c ke d up the c a r .
We t r i e d to
inte r e s t some mu s e um p e o p l e in I t al y in o ur wo r k , but a s ide
from the mu seum in F a en z a , wh i c h had a f ew o f our c e r amic s
i n i t s co l l ec t ion , nob o dy w a s r e al ly int e r e s te d i n an e x­
h i b i t ion .
I t m i g ht have been too co s t ly f o r them .
We went l e i s ur e ly to Rome , where we t r i e d to ab s o r b t hr e e ­
tho u s and ye ar s o f c i vi l i z at io n i n e i ght day s , t hen v i a S ie n a ,
F i ren z e t o Ven i c e (which I h a d f o r go t t e n how be aut i fu l and
lo ve ly i t wa�, Tr i e s t e , and t hen into Au s t r i a .
I t c ame a s a
s ho c k , bec a u s e some how o r other the l anguage h a d c hanged i n
Au s t r i a .
F r ie n d s to ld u s t ha t i t happe n e d dur i n g t he Na z i
o c cupa t io n .
Peo p l e began t o spe ak more d i al ec t b e c a u s e they
d i dn ' t w an t the Germ an s to under s t and .
The love af f a i r w i th
the N a z i s , and the Germ an s , d i dn ' t l a s t very long .
But by
then the A u s tr i an s were c aught , and a l l they c o u l d do to
pre s erve the i r ident i ty was to spe ak the i r own l anguage .
Even the inte l le c t ua l s who u s e d to spe ak the hi gh Ge rman
s t ar t e d to u s e a s t r o ng Au s tr i an o r V i e nne s e d i a l ec t .
To
u s it s oun ded very s t r ange .
We both we n t to the o p e r a , to
the Kon ze r thau s .
Altogether we s t ayed in Vi enn a for two
wee ks .
I t was be aut i fu l .
Then we drove l e i s ur e ly we s t
through the c ountry , stopp i ng a t va r i o u s p l ac e s , amo n g them
S t . F lo r i an , where we h a d n e ve r been b e f o r e , St eyr wh i c h we
j u s t loved ; some o f tho s e l i t t le town s are ve ry , ve ry
b e aut i fu l , and they are n o t on the tour i s t map .
We we r e o n our way to Swi t z e r land , w i t h four c a rton s o f
c e rami c s ve ry vi s i b l e i n the bac k o f our s t at i on wago n .
That c au s e d a somewhat d i f f i c u l t e xpe r i e n c e w ith the G e rm an s ,
who didn ' t let u s c r o s s t he border whe r e we wanted w i t h t he
c e rami c s .
We had to go a c e r t ain rout e o n ly .
W e had i n ­
tended t o d r i ve o n back - c o un t ry r o a d s , t h e short e s t w ay to
Swit ze r l and , a c ro s s lowe r Bava r i a and then back into Au s tr i a
a ga in and then into Swit z e r l an d , but they d i dn ' t l e t u s go
that way .
We had to go back twenty - f ive mi le s to the auto ­
b ahn , and then w i t h an e sc o r t through s ome twenty o r thir ty
mi l e s o f G e rman t e r r i to ry , b e c a u s e they we r e a f r a i d we we r e
go i ng to s e l l some c e r amic s on t he way i n Ge rmany w i thout
It
p ay in g duty .
So we had an e s c o r t w i th us i n our c a r .
w a s inter e s t i n g t al k i ng t o that young G e rm an , who h a d no
i d e a what had been go ing on in h i s c o untry b e twe en 1 9 3 8 and
1 945 .
He h ad no i de a , d i dn ' t know any t hing about H i t l e r .
I t was a l l forgotten .
Or maybe nothing e ve r h appene d
I t wa s March 1 9 5 9 .
F i n a l ly we arr i ved in Z u r i c h .
We go t to the Kun s tgewe r be
Mu s eum , and they had a l r e a dy r e c e ive d t he s hipment from Lo s
Ange l e s .
We met Dr . Wi l ly Ro t z le r who w a s t he c ur a t o r in
c ha r ge of the e xhib it ion , as we l l as Han s F i s ch l i , t h e
d i r e c t o r o f t h e mu seum .
Dr . Ro t z l e r to ld u s t h a t wh en the
s h ipment from Lo s Ange l e s ar r i ved , the m an who unp a c ke d i t
s a id , " Oh , the s e are wonde r fu l c e ramic s !
L o o k a t the w ay
they are p acked ! "
75
Dr . Rot z le r b e g an in s t al l i ng the s how .
They had emp t ie d two
We had a bo ut one hundred and t h i r ty p i ec e s
rooms comp le te l y .
inc l ud i ng the one s w e had with u s and t ho s e we had s h i p p e d .
They d i sp l ayed e ve ry t h ing on t ab l e s wh i c h we r e c o ve r e d with
an o f f -wh ite fab r i c .
The tab l e s we r e then s uppo s e d to get
g l a s s hood s .
E ve ry t h i ng w a s done in marve l o u s t a s te , w i th
enough s p ac e whi c h gave e ac h p i e c e room to breathe .
Dr . Ro t z le r w a s j u s t about to put the g l a s s ho o d s on the
d i sp lay when we s aid , " Do e s n ' t i t l o o k good w i t hout any g l a s s
r e f l e c t ion s ? Wou l dn ' t i t be wonder ful to s how i t t h i s way ? "
And Dr . Rot z l e r s a id , " Wo u l d you a l l ow u s to do i t thi s w ay ,
" We l l , I c an ' t make t h at de c i s ion .
We wo u l d
wi thout g l a s s ? "
love i t i f i t c o u l d b e do ne .
I do n ' t know .
I f there are
vanda l s , o f c our s e , i t wou l d not be wi s e to do i t . "
H e s ai d ,
" We l l , u s u a l ly our pub l ic i s very c ivi l i ze d , an d I wou l d l ik e
t o t ry i t w i thout g l a s s , a t l e a s t for t h e opening , and s e e
what t h e r e a c t ion i s . "
So w e d i sp layed e ve ryth ing i n the
open , with the e x c e p t ion o f a f ew ve ry sma l l p i e c e s .
Then
a f t e r everything wa s s e t in p l ac e , Dr . Rot z l e r put b i g r e d
The me an i n g
do t s t he s i ze o f a quar t e r under e ac h p ie c e .
i t i n d i c ated the p o s i t i o n o f a p i e c e , i f s ome ­
w a s two fo ld :
bo dy w anted to l i f t one , and i t wa s a p sy c ho l og i c a l reminder
to put i t b ack whe r e i t be long s .
Al so , if a red dot app e a r e d
w i t hout a p ie c e ne arby , t h e guar d wou l d imme d i at e l y know i t ' s
mi s s ing .
But nothing d i s appe a r e d an d nothing wa s damaged .
They e xt ended the e xh ib i t i o n for another two we e ks .
It was
o r i g in a l l y s c hedu l e d f o r four wee k s , a n d they extende d i t
to s i x we e k s .
RB :
D i d you s p e nd the who l e t ime - -
ON :
We s t ayed i n Swi t ze r land , but we d i dn ' t s t ay in Z ur i c h the
who l e t ime .
We drove t o the mo unt a in s .
Al so , some t h in g very
happy happe n e d .
My Unc l e Rudo lph I who w a s the l a s t p e r son
we s aw in E urope b e fo r e we l e f t , had a mar r i e d daugh t e r in
He w a s v i s i t ing her an d w a s go ing back to Porto r o z
Engl and .
at t h e t ime w e were in Z ur i c h .
He l iked to s p e n d t he s ummer
there in a hou s e that once be longed to h i m , but which wa s
t aken f rom h im by the T i to r e g i me and g i ven to h i s g a r dene r ,
who w a s a l ove ly m an and tre ated my unc l e s t i l l a s i f h e
we r e hi s bo s s .
He invited Unc l e Rudo lph to c ome ba c k any ­
t ime he wanted , he wo u l d have h i s room there and any f r e s h
So Unc le Rudo lph we nt
produce f rom the gar den h e might w ant .
e ve ry y e ar to P o r to r o z to spend the summer in G i g i ' s hou se
wh ic h once be l onged to my un c l e .
We had w r i t ten h im to Eng land that we wo uld b e in Swi t z e r l a n d
and he a g r e e d to stop in Z ur i c h .
We to ok t h a t o c c a s ion to
tre at him and our s e lve s to a t r i p through Swi t ze r l an d wh i c h
w e al l en j oyed very muc h .
I t w a s a mo s t inter e s t i n g and e n ­
j oy ab l e t r ip be c a u s e h e w a s a de l i gh t f u l m an .
He wa s e i gh ty­
two at the t ime , an d he to l d lot s o f s t o r ie s of fami ly a n d
o l d f r iends and al so how he s urvive d t h e war .
I t wa s no t
e asy .
Li ke so many othe r s , he a l so l i ve d in h i d ing .
76
Gertrud and h e we r e very fond o f e ach other , and o n e day
t hey s t ar t e d a d i s c u s s io n abo ut g e t t ing o lder .
G e r t ru d
men t i o n e d t h a t when we we r e a t Br ande i s w i th a l l the young
peop l e , that wa s the f i r s t t i me s he fe l t that she w a s
g e t t i n g o l de r .
I t s truck h e r when a l ec turer who c ame to
Brande i s s a i d dur ing h i s l e c ture , " . . . and s ome o f you m ay
r emembe r H i t l er , " and Gertrud thought , " Now I know I ' m
gett ing o l der , " and Unc l e Rudo lph s ai d , " Ja , that ' s i n t e r ­
e s t i ng .
I a l so r emember the f i r s t t ime I f e l t I wa s gett ing
I t wa s - - I s t aye d i n a s ummer r e s o r t o n c e and there
o lder .
were two young l a die s i n the ir fo r t i e s who s e comp any I e n ­
j oyed , a n d every a f t e rnoon w e h a d mo r e o r l e s s a d a t e a t a
And o ne d ay I o ve r s lept i n
Kon d i t o r e i f o r a f ternoon c o f f e e .
the a f te rnoon and w a s a b i t l at e , and when I w a l k e d in I
heard o n e o f them s ay , " I wo nder whether t he o ld m an i s go ing
t o be h e r e t h i s a f t e rn oon .
What h appened to him? "
And I w a s
shocke d .
And G e r t r u d a s k e d , " Unc l e Rud i , when d i d that
happen ? "
" Oh , l a s t y e ar , l a s t y e ar . "
( He was e ig hty-one
then ! )
He r emained y o ung to the very end , I imagine , b e c a u s e
h e w a s a lway s fu l l o f enthus i asm .
Tr ave l in g w i th h i m wa s
wonder fu l , h e en j oyed e ve ry mounta in , e very green me adow ,
He went out and t o o k wa lk s and wher e ve r we
every f l owe r .
wen t , e ven wh en the a c commoda t i o n s we r e not f i r st c la s s , or
somet ime s e ve n a l i t t le p r imit ive , he wo u l d s ay , " Oh , i s n ' t
i t ide a l ? "
One d ay he got up very e ar l y i n t he morn ing and
we n t fo r a walk t hrough t he town -- it was in Gr inde lwa l d - ­
and he c ame back with some Schn i t t l i ng ( ch i ve s ) and o t he r
f r e s h produ c e .
We s ai d , " Unc l e Rud i , where d i d y o u g e t t he s e
thin g s , whe r e did you go ? " And he s a i d , " We l l , I j u s t we nt
for a w a l k and I t a lk ed to a f a rme r and he gave me a l l t h e se
ve get ab l e s . "
RB :
He w a s y o ur mo ther ' s bro the r ?
ON :
He wa s my mo the r ' s bro t he r , y e s .
My mo ther ' s s e c o n d young e s t
brothe r , t h e young e s t d i e d dur ing Wo r l d W a r I .
A d e l i gh t f u l
man , y o u would have love d h i m .
RB :
An d so y o u s t ay e d i n Swi t z e r l an d .
D id you t a ke the e xh i b i t ion
back w i th you , o r how did that go ?
ON :
We t o o k o n l y part o f i t ba c k w i th u s .
When we to l d Dr . Rot z le r
t ha t we we r e go ing to Ho l land t o t ake a bo at f r o m the r e b a c k
t o N ew Y o rk , he s a i d , " When you ' re in Ams t e r d am be s u r e t o
s e e S andb e r g a t t h e Stede l i j k Mu s eum an d show h i m the c a t a log
( We
we pr inted h e r e , and a l so show him some o f your wo r k . "
c a r r i e d s ome o f the sma l l e r p i e c e s , the one s tha t I had t aken
t o E urope , w ith us i n the c ar . )
RB :
Wi l l em S andb e r g , r i gh t ?
ON :
That 1 s r i ght .
RB :
- - i n Ams terdam .
So we stopped at t he S t e d e l i j k Mu seum - -
77
ON :
Ye s .
He l o o ked at t he p iec e s an d s ai d , " I wo u l d l ike to
have an e xh i b i tion . "
So we wro t e Dr . Rot z le r not to s h ip
the t h i n g s bac k t o Ame r i c a but send t hem to the S t e de l i j k
Mu s eum , even t hough S andb e r g c o u l dn ' t g i ve u s a de f i n i t e
d a t e a t that ime .
RB :
D i d they have the new wing on t he mu s e um at that t ime ?
ON :
No , t hey we r e bu i ld in g i t .
Al l I r ec a l l abo ut the mus eum
w a s the Van Go g h ' s .
I t h ink t hey mu s t h ave had a c o up le o f
hundred o f them .
RB :
S o he c o u l dn ' t g i ve y o u a date .
ON :
He c o u l dn ' t g i ve u s a da t e , but we l e f t a few p ie c e s he
s e l e c t e d from the c o l l e c t ion we c a r r ie d by c ar .
He s e l e c t e d
I to l d h i m that the l arger
about f i f teen o r twenty o f tho s e .
one s wou l d be ship p e d to h im f rom Z ur i c h .
A s ide from the S t e de l i j k Mu s e um w i th i t s huge Van Go gh c o l ­
l e c t io n , we vi s i ted the R i j k smu s eum with s o m any m arve l o u s
Rembrandt s .
T h e " Ni ghtw atc h)" eve rybo dy w a s p u sh ing t o s e e ,
we bo th f o un d di s appo i n t in g :
it ' s j us t big .
Ams t e rd am i t ­
s e l f i s very b e aut i fu l .
We t o o k a l o t o f p i c ture s .
We we n t
to v i s i t o t h e r p l a c e s in Ho l land , l i ke Sparkenburg a n d De l ft .
RB :
Ro t t e r dam?
ON :
Rot t e r dam , too , though main ly to s e e some peop le we kne w .
RB :
De l f t .
ON :
To De l f t , y e s .
Un fortunat e ly , i t w a s t he e n d o f our E u ro p e an
j o urney and we s p e n t on ly ten day s i n Ho l l an d an d then too k
The we ath e r w a s wonder ­
t he bo at f r om Ams te rdam to New Yo r k .
fu l and r e fre sh ing i n Ho l l and , qu i t e grey but b e aut i fu l ,
love ly f r e sh a i r .
When we ar r i ve d in N ew Y o r k i t w a s ve ry
hot .
It was the f i ft h o f J une , and I l o o k e d at my watch b e ­
c a u s e w e we r e suppo s e d to l and in N ew Y o r k w i t h i n an hour ,
but I c o u l dn ' t s e e any thing e xcept for a grey w a l l o f smo g .
F ina l l y , we we r e maybe a h a l f m i l e away , we c o u l d s e e bu i ld ­
I t w a s s o aw fu l , y o u have no
i n g s o n the t ip o f Manha t t an .
ide a .
As a matter of f a c t , we s tarted to c o ugh the mome nt
we go t into that a i r , both Ge rtrud
an d I , and we arr ive d
i n N e w Yo rk , cough i n g , c o ug h ing .
F in a l l y w e go t through
c u s toms , inc luding the c ar whi c h , i n New Y o rk , wa s not so
e a sy b e c a u s e long sho remen in New York exp e c t t o b e t ipped for
e ve rything they do .
I wa s to ld that the r e was e n o ugh g a s in
the c ar to get to the next gas s t at ion .
Ye s , I d i d h ave
enough ga s , but when we c h e c ked the wate r , the w at e r w a s
dr ained from the r a d i a t o r .
S o I c o u l dn ' t have gone very f a r
w i thout overhe at ing .
We s t ay e d with my b r o t h e r i n B ay s i de ,
Long I s land , for four o r f ive day s .
The we ather d i d n ' t c l e a r
at a l l dur ing t h a t t ime .
We f e lt m i se r ab le , w e c o ughed day
78
and ni ght .
My brother thoug ht we h ad c o n t r a c t e d s ome
ter r i bl e l ung d i s e as e i n Europe , and f in a l l y we l e f t on
t he t e n t h of June t o d rive we s t .
We went thro ugh P en n s y l ­
van i a , and by the t i me we g o t t o S umme r vi l l e the a i r had
c leared .
I t was b e aut i f ul and our c o ugh was gone .
We never
e xperi e n c e d any t h i n g l i ke i t , not even in Lo s Ange l e s .
We we r e exp e c t e d i n Brande i s around the twe nt i eth o f Jun e .
RB :
Thi s w a s 1 9 5 9 .
ON :
I t was 1 9 5 9 .
We c ame back in t ime fo r the s ummer s e s s i o n
I n the m e an t ime - - the e xh i b i ­
and s t arted t o work a ga in .
I t opened
t ion at t he S t e de l i j k Mu s e um w a s a l s o in 1 9 5 9 .
e i ther in S e p t ember o r Octob e r , and s tr ang e ly e nough s ome
fr iends o f o u r s , w i t ho ut knowing about i t , s aw i t an d we r e
s urpr i s ed to g e t i nto a who l e c o l l e c t io n o f Nat z l e r s i n a
p la c e whe r e t hey d i d n ' t e xp e c t i t .
I nc identa l l y , t h i s p ar­
t i c u l a r e xh i b i t i o n c ame back to the U . S . an d w a s s hown at
t he C inc inna t i Art Mu s e um .
The fo l lowi ng ye ar , 1 9 6 0 , w a s our l a s t y e ar at Brande i s .
We f in a l l y had o ur f a l l -out w i th S h l omo and dec ide d to go
We a lway s s p e nt the wint e r s h e r e in Lo s Ang e le s
back home .
b e c a u s e there wa s no he at i n g in the b a rn at Brande i s an d ,
a s be aut i fu l a s i t wa s , i t w a s too c o ld in winter to wor k
there .
S e ve r a l ye ar s be f o r e we had met o ur g r e a te s t a d ­
Th ey were Leo n a r d S p e r ry and h i s w i fe ,
mirer s a n d sp o n s o r s .
Ro s e , whom e verybo dy c al l ed 11 Buddie . ' ' She had l oved our
wor k at the t ime when t hey s t i l l l i ved in Ch i c ag o and s aw
She had
i t for the f i r s t t i me at the smal l ga l l e ry t he r e .
a l so s een i t in an exhib i t ion at t he Art I n s t i tute .
She
had acquired a f ew smal l p i ec e s .
After they had mo ve d to
Lo s Ange le s , we met them in t he e a r ly f i f t i e s at a c on c e r t .
We were introduced to e a c h other in a rather ta s te le s s w ay
by s ome f r i e n d s o f our s who s ai d to Gertrud and me , " Oh ,
I have t o introduce you to s ome peop l e you have to know .
They are very important p eop le , you ha ve to me e t them . "
And the moment e i ther o f u s h e a r d o f 1 1 very impo r tant p e op l e , ' 1
we bec ame arro gant and he ave n know s what and s a i d , " We ll ,
we ' l l meet them in t i me . "
But t h e s e f r i e n d s i n s i s t e d , and
many ye ar s later I told Budd i e in what w ay o ur f ir s t i n t r o ­
duc t ion c ame about , a n d B u d d i e bec ame q u i te up s e t abo ut i t .
She w a s very s imp le and ve ry down - to - e art h , whe r e upon L e o na r d
s a i d , " What d o y o u m e an ? We a r e very i mpo rtan t , we a r e ve ry
I t ho ught i t w a s ve ry c ha rm i n g
imp o r t an t to each other ! "
the way he s a id i t .
H e had a great s e n s e o f humo r .
One day Leona r d c a l l e d an d s a i d that they wou l d l i ke to s e e
o u r wo r k s hop and a s ked whether they c o u l d c ome o ve r , a n d I
s aid , " O f c o ur s e . "
So one S un day he and Bud d i e c ame , and
Leonard took me a s i de and s aid , " L i s t en , when Budd i e s e l e c t s
someth in g and wan t s t o buy i t , t e l l h e r i t ' s n o t fo r s al e .
Her b i r t hday i s c oming up and I want to s urpr i se he r w i th i t
fo r h e r b i r thday , regardl e s s what i t i s . 11
So Budd i e , o f
79
cour se , f e l l i n love w i t h one p ar t i c u l a r bow l , and s he s a id ,
" Yo u know , I l ik e t h i s p i e c e very muc h .
Wo u l d you s e l l t hi s
to me ? "
I s a i d , " I ' d love t o s e l l i t to you , B udd i e , b ut
un f o r t un a t e l y I ' ve t ak e n a down-p aymen t f rom s omebo dy e l s e
fo r that pi e c e .
Yo u ' l l f ind s ome thing e l se , I ' m s u r e , but
t h i s p i e c e I c annot s e l l b e c a u s e i t is a l r e a dy r e s e r ve d . "
She wa s a b i t unhappy , but she under s tood and found s ome ­
t h i n g e l s e to t a ke with he r .
O f c o ur s e , Leonard g a ve her
the o t he r p ie c e for her b i rthday , and she w a s ve ry surpr i s e d
that the ' ' s omebody e l se ' l wa s he .
Ye a r s l a t e r t hat b o w l b e ­
c ame the f i r s t p i ec e o f he r future comp r e he n s i ve r e t r o ­
spec t ive N at z l e r co l l e c t ion .
I t w a s a t t he t i me we l e f t Br ande i s in 1 9 6 0 when Bud d i e
s e n s ed that w e were a b i t unhappy about i t , t h a t s he p r e ­
s en t e d u s w i th h e r i d e a o f a comp r e hen s i ve c o l l ec t io n o f our
wor k .
She wo u l d l ik e t o s e l e c t at lea s t one p i ec e o f every
y e a r we wo rked , to ma ke t h i s a r e a l ly me an ing fu l r e t r o ­
s pe c t i ve c o l l ec t ion .
She a lw ay s h a d a part i c u l ar g i f t t o
k n o w when s omeone n e e de d an enco urag ing wo r d o r a n e n c o ura g ­
ing deed .
They we r e l i ving in c ircum s t an c e s whe r e they
c o u l d afford p r ac t i c a l l y anything t hey wanted , and s o th i s
i d e a c ame to u s a s a won de r ful surpr i se an d a ve ry p l ea s an t
She t o l d u s at tha t t ime , " Yo u know , I ' ve been t h inking
one .
about t h i s for y e ar s , e ve r s in c e I got that p i e c e I s e l e c t e d
t hat w a s n o t for s a l e . "
It w a s h e r dec i s io n to make t h a t t he
f i r s t p i ec e o f her c o l l ec t i on .
I t w a s a bowl m ade in 1 9 5 2
The e a r l i e s t wo r k
and s he bu i lt the co l le c t i o n around i t .
s h e c o u l d f ind wa s made in 1 9 4 0 , and s h e kept on a d d i n g to
t he c o l l e c t ion unt i l the ye a r b e fo r e s he d i e d ( 1 9 7 2 ) .
RB :
Do e s i t have a part i c u l a r t i t l e ?
ON :
I t doe s n ' t h ave a ti t le .
We a l way s de s c r i be d our wo r k s j u s t
a s ' ' bo w l , '' o r " va s e , 11 '' t e ar d rop , 11 e tc .
That bow l had a ve ry
I
heavy i vo ry y e l low , f l owing g l a z e o n i t , w i th p inho l e s .
c an t e l l you the " o f f i c i a l '' t i t l e , i t ' s r i ght h e re .
RB :
That ' s
ON :
I t ' s t h i s p i e c e he r e .
RB :
I t h a s a number ?
ON :
I t ha s a numb e r .
The d e s c r i p t i o n i s j u s t :
Bow l , " He avy p a l e
ye l low f l owing g l a z e on b la c k po l i shed c lay , 1 9 5 2 , " p lu s the
dimen s i on s .
The number is D 4 6 5 , wh i c h is the number in my
ma s t e r c at a l o g , in wh ic h I r e c o r ded a l l our wo r k s in s e q uenc e
a f t e r the i r c omp l e t i on , t hat i s , a f te r t h e l a s t f ir ing .
F o rm and F ir e ,
the Sm ith son i an c a t alog .
Buddie w a s ve ry sy s temat i c abo u t a s s emb l ing her c o l l e c t i o n ,
s t ar t i n g at the ve ry b e g i nn i ng .
A s fo r e a r ly wo r k , she
d i dn ' t have muc h c ho i c e b e c au s e , unfortunate ly , t h e r e we r e
ve ry few p i ece s ava i lab l e , and unt i l her de ath we n e ve r c ou l d
80
f ind he r a 1 9 3 9 p i e c e .
I n t he me an t i me I d i d f i n d a c o up le
o f t hem , but that w a s after her de ath .
Of the y e a r s 1 9 4 0
and 1 9 4 1 I had o n ly o n e p ie c e e ac h , wh i c h I i n tended to
keep for our own c o l l e c t ion b e c a u s e I w a s ve ry a t t ac h e d to
them .
But t he n I f ina l ly let h e r have them and anyth ing
s he wanted to se lec t of the e ar ly y e ar s .
The 1 9 4 0 p ie c e
w a s number 9 8 5 i n t h e c ata lo g , a n d i t a l r e a dy show s
I t ' s one o f the f ir s t
G e r t rud ' s
typ i c a l app ro ach to f o rm .
p i ec e s whe r e t h e fo rm i s comp l et e ly i n te g r a t e d w i t h the
ba s e , though not quite a s a c comp l i shed as o n s ome o f the
later one s .
Before then , wheneve r s he t hrew a s imi lar bow l ,
she fo rmed the bo dy o f the bowl and added t he b a s e at the
'' l e a the r - ha r d '' s t ag e .
The were conne c t e d a l l r i ght , but
v i sua l l y there w a s not t hat f lowing c o n t inu i ty of the f o rm .
RB :
Th i s i s very i n t e g r a t e d .
ON :
Th i s i s comp l et e ly i n t e gr a t e d a l r e a dy , and l a t e r on to even
greater e xtent .
RB:
What i s the da t e o f t ha t bow l ?
ON :
The bow l i s dated 1 9 4 0 .
RB :
What happened to Ro s e Sperry ' s c o l l ec t i on ?
ON :
The e n t i r e c o l le c t ion w a s f i n a l ly wi l l e d to t he Lo s Ange l e s
m u s eum , whe r e i t r e s t s , mo s t o f the t i me , i n the b a sement .
RB :
I r emembe r a group o f them were out on the ann i v e r s ary , the
t e n t h ann i ve r s ary .
ON :
At the Tenth Ann i ve r s ary E xh ib i t ion o f the Lo s Ang e l e s
Mu s eum o f Art , they s e l e c ted the f i ve p i e c e s you s aw , and
they were d i sp l ay e d between the b i l l i ar d ba l l s o f O l denburg
and s ome thing e l s e -- and un f o r t un ate l y they we r e very b a d l y
lit .
I don ' t mind a poor d i sp lay , o r a c rowded one , but
when i t ' s l i t poor ly so t hat you c an ' t see wha t i t i s , I
rej ect i t .
I t ' s j u s t a s i f you c onduc t a sympho ny i n a
sma l l c o n c e r t ha l l whe r e the aco u s t i c i s c omp le t e ly l o s t ,
o r whe r e there i s s o muc h sound that you c annot he ar t he
soun d , o r i f y o u wou ld p l ay c h ambe r mu s i c in the Ho l lywo o d
Bow l , a n d j u s t r e ly on the amp l i f i c at ion .
I t ' s lo s t bec au s e
the wo r k o f art that y o u a r e s uppo s e d t o p r e s ent i s n o t t he r e .
RB :
C an you t al k a l i t t le b i t mo r e abo ut l i gh t ?
ON :
L i ght ing at t he mu s eum i s p r o bably the mo s t d i f f ic u lt t a s k
t o a c c omp l i s h , un l e s s y o u have dayl ight .
I a lway s p r e fer
go o d day l i ght , and whe n e ve r I get a mu s e um w i th day l ig ht ,
I ' m de l ighted .
At the Re nwic k Gal l e ry we had dayl i gh t .
Of
c o u r s e , in the eve n in g s y o u h a d t o r e ly on arti f ic i al l ight .
I t w a s very b e au t i ful dur ing the day ; y o u c o u l d s e e the
g l a z e s in the ac tua l l i ght .
But there are a l l sorts o f
81
prob l ems w i th other than day l ight .
We t r i e d to e xp e r imen t .
S ho u l d the l i ght c ome from t he s ide , s ho u l d i t c ome from
the top ?
I t depends on t he form .
Y o u have to t r e a t e a c h
p i e c e for i t s own indi vidua l i ty .
Y o u c annot l ight a t a l l
p i e c e , a c lo s ed form , e x ac t ly the s ame a s you wou l d l ight
an open bowl , o r have the s ame overhe ad l i ght b e am l ig ht
both o f them , whi ch i s mo s t ly done in mu s e um s , bu t i t i sn ' t
s at i s fa c tory .
C e rta in p i e c e s have to have int imate l ighting ,
e i the r i n d i r e c t o r d i r ec t , but the l i ght s o u r c e sho u l d n o t
be vi s i b l e .
I f you have day l i ght , o f c o ur s e , t he i d e a l day ­
l ight i s c oming f rom the north and f r om above - - s ky l ight s
are id e a l , a s long a s they don ' t bl ind your eye s , i f t h e r e ' s
d i r e c t sun s h i n e c o ming through t he s ky l ight - - but i f i t ' s
di ffu s e d l ight , o r l ouve r e d l i ght c oming from above , i t ' s
ide a l .
RB :
Do you wo r k on ly in n atur a l l ight now ?
ON :
I t ry .
But a s far a s I ' m c o ncerned , I c an wo r k i n t he d a r k
a l so , be c au se a s f a r a s g l a z e s a r e c o n ce rne d , I don ' t s e e
I
t he i r c o lo r s anyway when I a m mixing o r app lying t hem .
have to e xper iment in order to f ind out what the c o l o r wi l l
be a f te r f ir i ng .
When I m i x a g l a z e , i t ' s go ing to b e p ink ,
r e g a r d l e s s whe t he r the f in i shed c o lor i s b l ue o r g r e e n o r
S o I c an m i x a g l a z e anyt ime a s l o n g
red , rough o r smo o th .
a s I k n o w wha t I ' m doing .
RB :
So the f i r e i s your partne r .
ON :
The f i r e i s e xtreme ly impo r t an t , at l e a s t a s imp o r t an t a s
the c ompo s i t ion o f a g l a ze .
The m o r e int r ic a t e
f i re i s
a l so fu l l o f surpr i se s , some ti me s p l e a s an t and s ome t ime s n o t
s o p l e a s ant s urpri se s .
But t h i s i s s ome th ing that hap p e n s
to m e now be c au s e I know .
T h e r e wa s a t ime not so long ago ,
I tho ught i t happene d o n l y b e c au s e y o u didn ' t know .
Now I
know c e r t ain thing s are very e l u s i ve .
There are s o many
fac e t s wh i c h p l ay a very impor t an t r o l e dur in g the f ir i ng
wh ich m ay af f e c t the outc ome not o n l y o f the c o l o r but a l s o
the t e xture o f t he pot .
RB :
So when you br ing t he s e p i e c e s to p r e s e n t at ion i n l ight , i t
i s not nec e s s ar i ly d i re c t ly r e l at i ve t o t he way they were
c r e at e d .
ON :
No , not at a l l .
But I do p r e f e r d ay l ight for everyth ing
because i t is much mo r e p le a s ant and muc h e a s i e r to wo rk in
t he dayt ime .
I ' m c o ncerned though that m any mu s e ums don ' t
p ay any attention , o r very l i t t l e a t t en t i o n , t o l i gh t ing and
t ha t ' s j u s t a s bad a s
I a lway s u s e a comp a r i son w i t h
mu s ic - - a c on duc t o r who w i l l j u s t t r y to get t h e n o t e s o ut
o f the orche s t r a wi tho ut pay ing any at t e n t ion to the dynami c s
o f the mu s i c .
He p r o bab ly h a s no f e e l i ng for i t .
- -
RB :
Do you di s cu s s t h i s wi th c urato r s ?
82
ON :
I f I have a c h an c e , ye s .
Very o ften I don ' t h a ve a c h an c e
a n d once I r emembe r , when I c omp l a ined abo ut n o t enough
l ight , I go t a rep ly , " Th e l i gh t ing ' s per fe c t , you s ho u l dn ' t
have mo re l i ght . "
We l l , I soon found there w a s a r e a son :
t he r e w a s not enough powe r ; they b low fu s e s when t hey put
mor e bu lb s in .
But l i ghting is s ome t h i ng that one has to
e xp e r iment with -- there a r e no r u l e s .
RB :
The b e t t e r you know t he p i e c e .
ON :
You have to j u s t j udge i t for e ac h p ie c e .
The one p e r son I
r ec a l l who d i d a wonde r fu l j o b o f l i ght i n g - - i t w a s ne ar ly
p e r f e c t - - wa s Gre g No rman-Wi l c ox at the Lo s Ang e l e s Mu s eum
in 1 9 6 6 .
It was during our r e t r o sp e c t i ve s how at the L o s
Ange l e s Mu s eum .
RB :
I n t he Expo s i t ion Park ?
ON :
No her e , at t he Lo s Ange l e s Co unty Mu s e um o f Ar t , i n what
at that t ime w a s the L i tton w i ng .
Gr e g d i sp l ay e d n e ar ly
two hundred wo rks in two large g a l l e r i e s and he u s e d c as e s
w i t h i n d i r e c t l ight i n g , and h e w a s ve ry c ar e ful i n p l a c i ng
S ome had mo r e l ight and s ome had
and d ir e c t ing the l i ght s .
l e s s l ight , and there w a s e ve n a smal l s e c t ion whe r e h e h a d
p u r e day l i ght .
T h e exh i b i t ion w a s ve ry c a re f u l ly p l anne d
an d b e a ut i f u l l y i n s t a l le d .
I t w as an intere s t in g exp e r i e n c e
a l so bec a u s e Gr e g an d I had b e e n f r ie n d s f o r ye a r s , an d I
s aid , " Gr e g , anyt ime you w an t my he lp , p l e as e l e t me know .
�
and he
I ' l l b e very happy t o c ome an d so w i l l Ge rtru�
s a id , " I ' l l l e t you know i f I n e e d yo u . "
Abo ut two d ay s
b e fo r e t he e xh i b i t ion w a s to open h e s a id , " Why don ' t y o u
c ome down today , " a n d we wen t down and there i t was , p e r f e c t
and comp l et e , except one p i e c e h a d t o b e ra i se d s l i g h t l y s o
o n e c o u l d s e e the f o rm be t t e r .
E ve ry t h ing w a s j u s t me t i c u ­
He u se d a very l ight b ac kg round s o that t he i n d i r e c t
lous .
l ight r e f l ec ted on i r i d e s c ent p i e c e s wh i c h s h owed the i r ir i ­
d e s c en c e j u s t be aut i fu l ly .
I ' ve n e ve r s e e n the ir i d e s c ence
I t w a s a l ove ly
a s be aut i fu l be for e I s aw i t at the mu s e um .
e xh i bi t ion .
·
RB :
We we r e t al k ing s e ve r a l hour s ago ab out the Mu s e um o f Mod ern
Ar t and t he peo p le you knew there , and you s a id that the r e
wa s a p ar t i c u l a r per s o n you wanted to mention .
ON :
I me t h e r e i ther in the f o r t i e s o r
Ye s , Gr e t a Dan i e l s .
e ar l y f i ft i e s .
She was wo rking i n the Department o f De s ig n
and w a s very muc h inte r e s te d in o ur wor k .
I don ' t know
whether she w a s r e s po n s i b l e f o r the acqu i s i t ion s t he mu s eum
made at t ha t t ime .
It c o u l d ve ry we l l have b e en Edgar
Kaufmann who wo rked with the mu seum a s c u r ator in t he l at e
fort ie s .
RB :
I n any c a s e , we we r e t al k ing abo ut the s i xt i e s and the f a c t
t hat y o u we r e indeed se l l ing lot s o f wo r k , tha t y o u h a d a
83
de a l e r , t h a t your wo r k w a s mo ving forward , w i th inc r e a s ing
s at i s fa c t io n for y o u .
At l e a s t f inanc i al ly , your l i fe wa s
g o i n g we l l .
ON :
Ye s , in the s i xt ie s we f e l t we we r e out o f t roub l e a s f a r
a s our f inanc i al s i tu a t i o n w a s c o n c e rne d .
RB :
And yo u we r e a s s o c i at i n g with a number o f o t h e r art i s t s at
t h i s t ime , and we were go ing t o ta l k about t ho s e .
ON :
No t r e a l l y .
I t ' s s t r ang e , but I f e e l t h at mo s t p o t te r s keep
ve ry much to t hems e l ve s .
There a r e no group s that I know o f ,
no gui l d s , no organi z at ion s , and they e i the r l i ke e a c h o t h e r ' s
Mo s t o f t he a r t i s t s that we kn ew at the
wo r k o r they don ' t .
t ime we r e e i ther p ainter s o r s c u l p to r s l i ke Dan Lut z who wa s
o n e o f the H at f i e ld s t ab l e and a ve ry i n t e r e s t ing , s imp l e m an .
He p l ayed the ba s soon , and h i s wi fe wa s e ve n mo r e mu s ic a l ,
she w a s a p i an i s t an d p lay e d the oboe in add i t ion to i t .
Every once i n a wh i le t hey h a d c hamber mu s i c at the i r h o u s e ,
and a s long a s they l i ve d in Lo s Ang e le s , I w a s somet ime s
p art o f i t .
L a t e r t hey move d to S an t a Barba r a and un f o r t u ­
n at e ly he had a s t r o ke about s i x o r s e ve n y e a r s ago and h e
died .
RB :
You and I we r e t al k ing about L aura And re s on .
ON :
Ye s .
She w a s o n e o f the f i r s t peo p l e who c ro s se d our p a t h
in t he very beginnin g , and we bo th w e r e very f o n d o f h e r ,
a s we l l a s o f her wo r k .
She a l s o go t very muc h i nt e r e s ted
i n Ge rtrud ' s
way o f throwing and s he took a f ew l e s s o n s
I ' m a l s o very
with her .
The two bec ame very g o o d fr i e n d s .
I t ' s a f r i e n d s h ip that ' s l a s ted unt i l the ve ry
fond of her .
p r e s e n t , even though we don ' t see e ac h o th e r f r equent l y .
I
to ld you that she i s go i n g to b e repre s e nted in th i s c orning
exh i bi t ion at the Lo s Ange l e s Mu seum .
RB :
Yo u , yo ur work - -
ON :
Ye s .
That me an s Gert rud ' s and my work , b e c a u s e B i l l Jone s
wan t s to limit the t ime sp an from 1 9 4 5 to 1 9 6 0 , and there ' s
l i t t le o f my own work s temming f r om that t ime .
S he i s go ing
to be i n th i s e xh i b i t i on , an d a l so Harr i son M c i nto s h , I
un der s t and .
RB :
But you s ay you h ad very l i t t l e cont ac t with o t h e r c r a f t s ­
peop le and other c l ay art i s t s i n the s i xt i e s .
ON :
Throughout a l l our l i ve s .
I don ' t know why , but obviou s ly
I neve r f e l t the need to get i n f l u e n c e d by other peo p l e ' s
work .
Mo s t o f our p e r s o n a l f r iend s , i f they we r e art i s t s ,
were not po tter s , w i th the except ion o f L aura .
A s a mat t e r
o f f ac t , s he ' s the on ly p o t t e r whom I c o n s ider a p e r s on a l
f r i end .
84
RB :
S o you cont inued h aving exh i b i t io n s on a f a ir ly r e gu l a r
ba s i s , e n t e r ing compet i t i o n s s t i l l ?
ON :
No comp e t i t io n s were e n t e r e d a s far a s I r ec a l l a f t e r 1 9 6 3 .
The l a s t t ime we e n t e r e d a c ompe t i t io n w a s in 1 9 6 2 .
( I keep
a record o f our exh i b i t i o n s an d p a r t ic i p at ion in e xh i bi t ion s . )
RB :
And d i d you c on t in ue to t rave l o r d i d you s t ay pretty much
in Lo s Ange l e s after your t r ip in the late f i f t i e s ?
ON :
We s t ayed pretty much in Lo s Ange l e s e xcept in 1 9 6 3 when we
had a l arge s how at t h e C h i c ago Art I n s t i tute and we wen t
there for t he open ing and a l so a l e c ture .
RB :
That w a s when Mr s .
ON :
No .
That w a s about the t ime she s t ar t e d a s s e mb l ing h e r c o l ­
They l ived in Lo s Ang e l e s then .
The C h i c ago e x ­
l e c t io n .
We
h ib i t ion w a s we l l in s t al l e d , i t h a d s p a c e t o b r e athe .
had a very l arge room fo r the i n s t a l l a t ion , wh i c h wa s done
by Han s Hut and h i s a s s i s t an t who bec ame curator l at e r on ,
That s ame e xh i b i t i on
a woman by t he n ame o f S c he idemante l .
w a s next shown i n S an F r a n c i s c o at t he Mu seum o f Mo dern Ar t
in C i v i c C e n t e r , and at t he S t . P au l Art C en t e r dur i n g that
y e ar .
RB :
And then you conti nued having p ie c e s s o l d through the s ame
d e al e r ?
ON :
Hat f ie ld wo rked f o r u s p r ac t i c al ly unt i l h e d i e d .
RB :
Then what happene d ?
ON :
Then h i s wi f e cont inued the g a l l ery , but she wan t e d t o
A l so we had a b i t o f a fa l l - out w i t h
s imp l i fy h e r l i fe .
them a t t hat t i me .
I t a l l s t ar t e d b e c a u s e Hat f i e l d w a s
r e spon s i b l e f o r o u r f ir s t e xh i b i t ion a t t h e C h ic ago Art
I n s t i tute in 1 9 4 6 , an exh i b i t ion we s h a r e d with Ma i j a Grote l l .
When t he s e c o n d one , in 1 9 6 3 , c ame abo ut w i t hout any o f h i s
doing , Hat f ie ld , for some r e ason , w a s ve ry unhappy abou t i t .
I c o u l dn ' t under s t and i t .
He f e l t t hat s in c e he s t ar t e d the
f i r s t e xh i b i t ion at t hat mu s eum , he had an e xc l u s i ve t h e r e .
But he hadn ' t done anything s ince 1 9 4 6 !
A s a matter o f f a c t ,
I had been r eminding h im about another e x h i b i t i o n i n C h i c ago ,
a s he w a s go ing b a c k and forth to the E a s t C o a s t r e g u l a r l y .
It wou l d have been t ime for another e x h i b i t ion i n the E a s t ,
but he n eve r d i d anything .
F in a l ly our f r i e nd , Mary Lou
Wome r , who u s ed to have a g a l l ery in C h i c ago and handl e d o ur
wor k t here , and who a l s o wo rked p ar t -t i me at the Ar t I n s t i tute ,
s t arted the b a l l ro l l ing .
S p e r ry ' s c o l le c t ion w a s s ho wn ?
Be fore then there were a numbe r o f e xh i b i t ion s i n wh i c h we
p ar t i c ipated , and fo l l owing C h i c ago we e xh i bited in abo ut
twenty group s hows .
They ' r e a l l l i s ted in the Re nw i c k c a t a log .
85
Then f ina l ly , a f t e r y e a r s o f ta l king abo ut i t , we h ad a
l arge r e t r o s p e c t ive at t he Lo s Ange l e s Mu s e um i n 1 9 6 6 .
That wa s the s how Gregor Norm an -Wi lcox c urate d .
RB :
And then h i s t o r i c a l ly l e t ' s c ar ry on f r om 1 9 6 6 a b i t .
ON :
There we r e a number o f one -man e xh i bi t ion s .
I rec a l l one
at the P a lm S p r i n g s Mu s e um , and a t the P ac i f ic Lut h e r an
Un i ve r s i ty i n Tacom a , Wa s hington , in 1 9 6 8 .
RB :
You we r e s t i l l l iving in th i s hou s e an d p lay ing chambe r
mu s i c ?
ON :
No , I had to g ive up c hamber mu s ic by that t i me .
I had
arthr i t i s
in my le ft hand and j u s t c o u l dn ' t p lay anymor e .
RB :
What y e ar was tha t ?
ON :
I t s ta r t e d in the e a r ly s i xt i e s when I f e l t tha t I c o u l dn ' t
p lay a s we l l a s the y e a r b e f o r e .
Gr adua l ly p l ay ing b e c ame
d i f f ic u l t and t he sound w a s not as p le as urab l e a s i t s ho u l d
have been .
Ten y e a r s l a t e r I d i sc on t i nued p l ay ing a lto ­
gethe r .
RB:
An d you we r e c o n t inu ing wo r k i n g o n new g l a z e s an d new
s ur f a c e s ?
ON :
Y e s , on and o ff .
I didn ' t e xper iment a s much a s I d i d i n
e ar li e r ye a r s .
But a l so in 1 9 6 3 G e r t rud ' s
c an c e r w a s
d i s c o ve r e d .
RB :
1963.
ON :
Ye s .
S h e had some probl ems an d when she f in a l ly had a
She had
thorough examin a t ion , t hey d i s c o ve r e d the c an c e r .
t o unde rgo an ope r a t ion - - s he had two o p e r at ion s t h a t y e ar .
When I t a l ked to her doc t o r a f t e r the f ir s t one , I to l d h im
He w an t e d
by a l l me an s not to d i sc lo s e h i s d i agno s i s to h e r .
to in form her , b u t I knew G e r t rud a n d I prevented h i m f r o m
She had b l adder p r o b l ems be fore , and a l s o
info rming he r .
s ur ge ry .
A t t hat t ime i t w a s d i agno s e d a s a p ap i loma o f the
b la dder .
Th i s s e emed to have c hanged into a m a l i gnant tumo r .
She r e c ove r e d s low ly a ft e r the ope r at ion .
By t he t ime o f
the e xhib i t ion at the C hi c ago Art I n s t itute bo th o f u s c o u l d
g o fo r t h e open ing .
B u t s ome thing hung o ve r o ur head s .
Gertrud had to have med i c al c he c kup s every thr e e month s .
And un fo rtuna t e l y , ne a r ly a lw ay s , new growth was d i s c o ve r e d
that h a d t o be r emoved sur g i c a l ly .
But s h e w a s very b ra ve
abo u t i t .
She on ly c omp l a ined that eve ry t ime the s e o p e r ­
She had to
ation s took three o r four wee k s o u t o f h e r l i f e .
go to t h e ho s p i t al and s t ay t he r e for three o r f o u r day s , and
B ut
then recuperate at home for at l e a s t two o r thr e e wee k s .
she w a s not comp l a i n in g , but I knew i t w a s very p ai n fu l .
Even the p e r i o d i c e x ami nat ion s .
86
I n 1 9 6 9 we had the fi r s t c o r r e spondence w i th Gr aeme Ke i t h ,
the curator a t the de Young Mu s e um , abo ut a c o mprehen s i ve
show o f our wo r k .
We were de l ighted and were very muc h
l o o k ing forward to i t .
( That wa s a f t e r t h e L o s Ange l e s
r e t r o s pe c t i ve , o f cour s e . )
Then , fi na l ly i n l at e 1 9 6 9 , a
I n De c embe r o f 1 9 6 9 , wh i le we
date was s e t for t he s how .
She h a d t he
were in New Yo r k , Gertrud f e l l vio lent ly i l l .
f lu and c o u l dn ' t g e t r i d o f i t .
The we ather w a s mi s e r ab le
and we thought , we l l , when we come back t o Lo s Ang e l e s
Howeve r , a do c t o r who t r e at e d
e ve ryth ing wi l l b e a l l r i ght .
her i n N e w Y o rk s a id t h a t s h e shou l d have a thorough e xami ­
I t w a s then that
n a t i o n when she c ame back to Lo s Ang e l e s .
they d i s c overed a l ung tumo r , an d that c ame a s a gre at s ho c k
t o her .
In May 1 9 7 0 she under went . s urge ry , a lobec tomy , and i t turn e d
out t h a t i t w a s not a p r imary t umo r but a met a s t as i s from
h e r b l adder tumo r .
By then i t w a s impo s s i b l e to c o n c e a l any­
t h in 0 .
Ge rt rud was to ld about her c o n d i t i o n , and i t c ame as
S urp r i s i n g ly , she recovered remarkably we l l f rom
a s ho c k .
the l ung surgery .
Howeve r , at t hat t ime a l r e a dy , I wa s to l d
t h a t s he wou l d have to undergo another o p e r a t ion to r emo ve
her b la dder .
I r e c a l l t hat on the d ay o f the lung s urgery I w a s at U . C . L . A .
ho s p i t al , and when I we nt down on the e l evato r B ud d i e Sp e r ry
S he wanted to t al k t o me , but I
w a s w a i t i ng down s t a ir s .
Y o u know , to th i s d ay ,
d idn ' t want to t al k , I j u s t c o u l dn ' t .
I f e e l g u i l ty b e c a u s e I hurt her fee l in g s .
She w a s such a
dear f r ie n d , very d e vo ted to bo th o f u s , and very c o n c e rne d .
" Budd i e , I c annot ta l k , p l e a s e l e ave . "
A l l I co u l d say w a s :
I r e c a l l I we n t to the Bo t an i c a l Ga r den and w a l k e d alone .
I s ho u l d have wal ked w i t h her b e c au s e she en j oyed p lant s
I had to b e a lone .
and f l owe r s .
I to l d he r l a te r , i t w a s
month s l at e r , what t h e r e ason s we re .
I don ' t know whe t h e r
she unde r s to o d o r d idn ' t , b u t I know that on that d ay I hurt
her fee l ing s .
Budd ie had undergone a s imi lar e xpe r i e n c e w i th
her hu s band who d i e d s e ve r a l ye a r s e ar l i e r a l so o f c an ce r .
Ge rt rud r e c o ve red an d e ven s t ar t e d to wo r k a g a i n .
Un f o r t u ­
nate ly , in Aug u s t they p e r formed t h e c i s te c tomy - - i t w a s
j u s t t h r e e month s a f t e r her lung oper a t i on - - an d that w a s
q u i te a blow .
None the l e s s s he recovered from t h a t a l s o ,
and i n October we went to Y o semite and d i s c o ve r e d a very
love ly l i tt le p r i va t e vi l l age wi thin the p ar k .
( I don ' t
know whether you know Y o s emite .
There ' s s ome pr iva t e l an d
in t he p a r k c a l l ed " The Re dwood s . " )
Peo p l e o wn smal l an d
a l so q u i te e laborate c abin s the re , and we rented one o f t hem
I t w a s a lre ady l a t e
r ight at the e dge o f the Me r c e d R i ve r .
i n Octobe r , there w a s n o t a s o u l aroun d , so w e h ad t he who l e
p l ac e to our s e lve s .
I t w a s idy l l i c , and we bo th en j oyed i t
i n s p i t e o f Ge rtrud ' s
tr aumat ic e xpe r i e nc e j us t e ight o r
I r e c a l l one d ay
n ine wee k s e ar l i e r .
We went o n long wa l k s .
I
t
w
a
s
q
u
i
t
e
c
o
l d , wi th s ome
we h i ked s i x o r s e ven mi l e s .
87
p atche s o f snow on the g round , and i t w a s the l a s t won der ful
v acat ion we had in the moun ta i n s .
We r e turned home by the
The
m id d l e of Novembe r , and I t h i nk it was a S atu rday .
f o l l ow i ng day a f r i e nd of o ur s , Ruth G r e enbe rg , who had a
s mal l g a l l e ry in Ma libu , opened an " exh i bi t ion " o f o u r w o r k .
S o s h e s a id .
I t w as not ve ry much o f an exh i bi t ion - - m ay b e
twenty - fi ve p ie c e s a l to ge the r - - but s he wanted to s how them
D ur ing our l at e Sun day mor n i ng
and s he s en t o ut invi t at i on s .
break f a s t we d i s c u s se d whe t h e r we s ho u l d go the re o r not .
Gert rud
f e l t q u i te we l l , i t was a beaut i ful d ay and we h a d
j u s t c ome b ac k from Yo s emite the d ay be fore , so w e we n t to
Ma l i bu .
The r e were qu i t e a f ew peop l e the re ; Gertr ud e n­
j oy e d i t a l s o .
Rut h was happy t o show some o f our wo r k at
h e r ga l l e ry , and s h e s o ld a few p i ec e s whi ch a l so made h e r
happy .
There , among o t h e r p e r son s , I me t a yo ung l ady who
approached me and t r i e d to t a l k to me in Ge rman , a r at he r
atroc iou s Ge rman , I must s ay , but s he he r s e l f w a s very
p le a s an t .
To keep t he conve r s at ion goi ng , I an swe r e d i n
Eng l i sh .
That yo ung l ady was Ga i l Reyno l d s .
And t hen I s aw
he r very ab sorbed re ading i n the S p er ry bo ok , o f whi c h she
I t w a s the o n l y t ime we bo t h me t h e r
l ater bought a copy .
She s eeme d s o inte r e s te d in our wor k
and t alked w i t h her .
and a s ke d a l l k in d s o f que s t ion s , and I f i na l ly s aid , " We 1 1 ,
She
whe ne ve r you have t i me why don ' t y o u c ome vi s i t u s ? "
never did .
She n e ve r e ven c a l led a ft e r that .
f e l t very we l l ,
F rom mid-N o vember through J anuary G e r t rud
and s he r e turn ed to he r wor k .
We both we r e qui te happy unt i l
She
the b e g i nn i ng o f Febr uary , when she suf f e r e d a r e l ap s e .
had to und e r go a ve ry tho ro u gh e xamin at ion at U . C . L . A . by t h e
do c to r who o p e r a t ed on her ; i t w a s on t he e i gh th o f F e br ua ry
- - y ou ' ve p r o ba b l y marve led why I r emember date s s o we l l - ­
but t he n i nth o f Fe br uary wa s a memo r ab le date .
After her
e xamina t ion Ge r t r ud c ame home and w a s vio le n t l y s ic k , p r o b ­
I ' ve
a b ly from an i n j e c t ion o f dye , a n d s he had t he c h i l l s .
neve r s een anybo dy s h ak e a s she d i d .
F i n a l ly she c a lmed
down and had a f a i r ly good n i ght .
I wo ke up ve ry e a r l y t h a t
mo rn i ng and w a s re ading in b e d , when at 6 : 0 0 o r 6 : 0 1 , the
I t was a fr i ghten i ng e x ­
F eb ruary 9 th e a r t hquak e s truc k .
p e r i e nc e .
( I don ' t know whether yo u were in Lo s Ange l e s at
the t ime . )
F i r s t there was an awfu l tremo r ; I ' ve n e ve r f e lt
such a s trong e a rthquak e .
Then c ame a s e cond s ho c k a n d o b ­
j e c t s s t arted f a l l in g .
A t a l l s c u l pt ur e o f m i n e was s t an d i ng
S t r an ge ly , i t
in the s tudy ; i t fe l l over wi th a loud n o i s e .
d i d not bre ak .
Then the r e were s e ve r al p i e c e s i n the l i ving
room o n win dow bo xe s , and they c ame c r a s hi ng down and were
comp l e t e ly s h at t e red .
One o f them , a Meno r ah , broke i nto
maybe three do zen p i ec e s .
And then the wo r s t hap pene d ; the
I t w as p i t c h dar k , and we were comp l e t e l y
l ight s we n t o f f .
I went into Ge rt r ud ' s
i so l a t e d .
The r e w a s n o radio , n o t h i ng .
room ; she o f c our s e had f e l t the shock s and was aw aken e d by
them .
She j u s t s a i d , " We l l , here go e s our l i fe ' s wo r k . "
We
had a c lo s e t f i l led w i t h o ur work .
We c o u l d h e a r p i ec e s
topp l e ove r .
And strangely enough , w i t h the e xc e p t i o n o f
88
I c o u l dn ' t b e l i e ve
f o ur p i e c e s , every thing e l s e s urvived .
it .
I wa s r e spon s i b l e for the l o s s o f one p i e c e b e c a u s e I
opened the door too f a s t , and i t went c r as hing to the groun d .
Had I opene d t he door s l owly to s e e whe ther any th i n g wa s up­
s et an d l e a n i n g ag a i n s t t he doo r , I co u l d h ave saved i t .
None t he l e s s , i t w a s a m i r a c l e , r e a l l y .
We bo t h fe l t ve ry
f o r t unate and r e l ie ved that t he r e w a s so l i t t l e damage ,
though we l o s t a n umber o f un f i n i s he d p i ec e s i n t he work shop .
Gertrud con t i nued wo r k ing on and o f f a ft e r t hat .
I n e ar ly
Apr i � John Loeng ard from L i f e maga z ine c ame .
He w a s c om­
mi s s ioned t o do a p ho t o s to ry on us an d our wo r k , and h e
t o o k a mi l l io n p ic ture s .
Not h ing eve r mate r i a l i ze d then ex ­
c ep t t ha t the Smith s on i an b o rr owe d o ne o f t hem two y e ar s
G e rt r ud
l a t e r for the in s ide c o ve r o f t he Renwi c k c a t a lo g .
was q u i t e we ak at the t ime Loengard w a s h e r e .
Nonethe l e s s ,
she s a t down a t the whe e l and demo n s t r at e d fo r h im , and s he
thr ew two p ie c e s wh i c h she comp le t e d the f o l l owing d ay .
They w e r e the l a s t two p ie c e s she made .
I h a d a s t r ange
f ee l in g at the t ime she s at down at the whe e l a f te r she had
thrown them ; s he wan t e d to d i sc ar d them , and I had to be g
her not to do so :
" P l e a s e , f in i s h them i f you c an , by a ll
me an s . "
A very d e ar f r iend from C h i c ago , Ro s e Al schu l er , c ame to
Lo s Ang e l e s at t hat t ime and vi s i ted u s .
She w a s very muc h
awa re o f Gertrud ' s
i l l ne s s , and s he s a id th at she w a s g o i n g
t o C a rme l and w e s hou l d c ome and j o in her .
We s ug g e s t e d
that s he s hou l d go t o C arme l Va l l ey in s te a d , f o r s o me r e ason ,
a s beaut i fu l a s C a rme l i s , i t i s too o ve r r un , too arty , and
I t i s out o f the
we p r e f e r r ed t he c l imat e in t he v a l l e y .
fog mo s t o f t he t i me .
S o s h e d i d go t o C arme l V a l l ey and
And then we
both Gertrud
an d I j o in e d her for a f ew d ay s .
drove to the Napa Va l ley and bac k to C a rme l and , fo r the
l a s t t i me , Po int Lobo s , wh i c h we bo t h l oved .
I t ' s one
squaLe mi l e , I b e l i e ve , of t he mo s t c o n c entrated beauty on
e a rt h .
I t ' s j u s t four m i l e s south of C arme l .
D id you e ve r
g o to P o int Lobo s ?
RB :
No ,
ON :
N e xt t ime , by a l l me an s .
And get out and w a l k a long var iou s
po in t s .
We had been t h e r e many t ime s be fo r e , e xp lo r ing ,
lo o king a t every r o c k .
There a r e unbe l ie vab l e r o c k fo rm at ion s ,
w a s he d out , eroded roc k f o rmat ion s .
Some spo t s loo k l i ke
r a i se d h i eroglyphic s c arve d in s an d s ton e .
A photogr a p he r ' s
p ar a d i se .
I n a dd i t i o n to o c e an and mo unt a in s , the r e i s a s
much be auty in t he de t a i l o f i t .
W e drove in a n d I t ho ught ,
we ' l l go for w a l k s , b ut G e r t rud
s a id , " I ' m too t i r e d , I
c annot go . "
And at that t ime I knew that the end w a s ne ar .
P o i n t Lobo s w a s one o f h e r favo r i te p la ce s , and Ge r t r u d n o t
get t i n g o u t o f the c ar w as unthinkab l e .
We we nt home ; i t
w a s t h e b e ginn ing o f May .
B y then h e r con d i t i on d e t e r i o r ated
I ' ve j u s t been to the S eventeen Mi l e D r i ve .
89
ve ry r api d ly .
We had t o do the c l e r i c a l wo r k f o r the s how
in S an Fr anc i s c o at the de Yo ung , wh i c h was s c he du l ed to
open o n the 2 9 t h o f J u l y .
I wa s very up s e t about Gertrud ' s
c on d i t io n .
I had hoped
that s he wou l d b e ab l e t o go and see t he s how -- i t wa s
\Jhi l'.,.
k d b e e n 1 oo k ing
s ome t h ing /+c
we
na
.
f o rwar d very muc h b e c a u se we
we r e very fond o f the de Young Mu s eum , and i t was a g r e a t
e vent for b o t h o f u s to have a r e t ro sp e c t i ve there .
We
b e gan s e l e c t ing c e r ami c s and we s t ar t e d d i s cu s s ing the
c a t a l o g for t he show .
And the n Gert rudi s
n ie c e , S ent a ,
whom bot h o f u s loved d e ar l y , c ame from Wa s h ington , D . C . to
S he w a s in fo rmed abo ut Gert r u� s
c o n d i t io n , and
vi s i t .
dur i n g he r vi s i t a l so t o o k part i n t he di s c u s s ion for the
s t ar t e d s e l e c t i n g s ome p ie c e s wh ich s he
c at a lo g .
Gertrud
de f i n i t e ly w an t e d in the s how and she en j oy ed Sent a ' s vi s i t ,
but her c o n d i t ion w a s very , very poo r .
S h e w a s in great p a in .
Vi s i t o r s were never aware o f i t bec a u s e s he c o u l d h ide i t ,
and she even t r i e d to h i de i t from me .
B ut I r e c a l l one t ime
wh en she e xp e c t e d me to be in the wo r k s hop ( whi c h d idn ' t
happ e n too o ften b e c a u s e I h ad to do hou s e ho l d cho r e s l i ke
mar ket ing and prep ar ing me al s ) , I s aw Ge rt rud walk f rom the
b e d room to the bathro om and my heart b r o ke .
S he d i dn ' t know
I was in t he hou s e , so s he didn ' t c are how she walk e d , and
And at that t ime she
I c o u l d see i n how muc h p a i n she w a s .
a l so s a id , " Yo u know , I ' m no t g o i n g back t o any ho s p i t a l .
You have to prom i s e me t ha t wha t e ve r h appen s , you w i l l not
s end me bac k to a ho s p i t a l . "
I prom i s e d i t .
At home , at
l e a s t s he c o u l d look o ut on a green t r e e o r , if she f e l t
a l l r ight , c ou l d w a l k out i n the garden .
Whi le S e n t a wa s
h e r e - - s he intended to s t ay f o r a we e k - - Gert rud
fell
into a coma .
I knew s he had he lped i t along ; she had t ak en
I t s e ems that s he
s ome s l e e p i n g p i l l s and d i d not awake .
had c o l l e c ted them af t e r each surgery at the ho s p i t al .
Ob ­
I t was
vio u s ly , she hadn ' t u s e d any b e fo re , o r very few .
t h e l a s t d ay o f May and on June 3 r d she d i e d .
I h a d known
fo r ove r s e ven y e ar s that she had c an c e r wh i c h e ventua l ly w a s
go ing to b e t ermi na l .
I had s e e n her go through va r i o u s
s t age s , a n d a fter t h e lung o p e r at ion i n 1 9 7 0 an d the s ub ­
s equent c y s t e c tomy , I knew t hat t he end wa s ne ar .
When i t
f i n a l ly c ame , i t h i t m e a s i f I h a d n e ve r e xp e c t e d i t to
h appen .
.
F o rtunate l y , Sent a w a s h e re an d she s t ayed a few mo r e d ay s .
I n t he mo rning a ft e r Gertrud ' �" d e ath , a very dear f r i e n d ,
Do c to r Mo rton Gro s sman c ame .
He wa s a ga s t r o - e n te r o log i s t
a t Ve t e r a n s Ho sp i t al and a l s o at U . C . L . A . , an d a wonde r fu l
human b e in g be s ide s .
He advi s e d me i n t he l a t e f i ft i e s , and
I a lway s to ld him that he s aved my l i fe then .
He arr ive d
and w e ar ranged t o have Gertrud ' s bo dy p ic k e d u p t o b e
c r emated .
Two men c ame , they str appe d the body to a
s t re tcher , and then I opened t he doo r to l e t them g o out .
The moment I opened t he doo r , the three be l l s that G e r trud
m ade , whi c h we r e hanging there , s t ar t e d to r ing very s o f t ly
90
and me l o d io u s ly .
And they kept o n r in g i n g unt i l t he men
a r r i ve d at the bo ttom o f the s t e p s at the he ar s e .
And t he
three o f u s , Senta , Morton and I s t o o d there w i th t e a r s i n
our e ye s .
We d i dn ' t be l ie ve i t ; i t w a s a s i f t he b e l l s
The re was no s ound be f o r e
j o in e d i n s ay in g a l a s t goodby e .
a n d n o s ound a ft e r .
I t w a s o n e o f t ho se g r e y June day s
wh i c h a r e s o ve ry common at that t ime o f y e a r , with h e avy
hang in g a ir an d not the s l ighte s t s ign o f wind .
A we e k o r two e ar l i e r , whi l e S e n t a w a s h e r e , Gertrud
said
t o bo th o f u s , " No matter what happen s , you have t o go
through wi th the San F r an c i sc o e xh i b i t i o n . "
I had sugge s t e d
to c an c e l i t ; t he r e w e r e s t i l l two mo nth s to g o , a n d i t
wou l dn ' t have been the wor s t i f we had c ance l l e d at t ha t t ime .
B ut Gertrud
in s i s te d , " No , wh atever happen s , you h a ve t o go
through w i th t h i s e x h i b i t ion , no m at t e r wha t . " And I h ad to
promi s e h e r , and Sen t a too .
S e n t a reminded me o f th at p r o ­
m i s e , and s omeho w i t was g o o d me d i c i ne fo r me .
I d i d not
t ake any s le e p i ng p i l l s , I d i d n ' t t ake any tranqui l i z e r s ;
We h a d
we went to wor k and S e n t a he lped w i t h t he c a t a l o g .
d i s c u s se d v ar i o u s fo rmat s wh i le G e r t r u d wa s s t i l l a l i ve ,
and t hen we dec i d ed , bec au s e t ime w a s g e t t i n g very s ho rt ,
t hat S en t a and I wo u l d t ape a conve r s at ion abo ut our wo rk .
And t ha t we d i d .
We both s at h e r e and we r e c orded and l a t e r
I t r an sc r i be d i t .
S e n t a d i d some th ing very d e ar .
She c a l l e d ,
among m any other s , her daught e r , H e l en , who had p l anne d a
He l en c an ­
b a c kp a c k t r ip through the B l ue Ridge Mo untain s .
She
c e l l ed her t r ip a n d s aid s he w an t e d to come out here .
s aved my l i fe .
There was s o muc h to do , and she took a l l
L i ke go ing t o the p r i n t e r and
the d i r ty wo r k o f f my hands .
g e t t i n g p r i n t s from the p hotographe r , typ ing l i s t s an d what
have you .
We hadn ' t e ven s t ar t e d to do any p ho t ography by
that t ime .
Max Yavno , who did the photogr aph s for the
Sperry boo k , did the a dd i t io n a l p i c ture s we w ant ed .
And
t hen we f ina l ly s e l e c t e d a de s i gne r who d e s igne d the c at a l o g .
The p r i n t ing was the mo s t di f f ic u lt p art , e sp ec i a l l y s ince
Fo rtun ate ly , t he p r i n t e r we
i t had to be done in a hurry .
s e l e c t e d , Je f f r i e s L i thograph C omp any , turned o u t to b e
e xc e l l en t .
I t w a s an inte r e s t ing e s t ab l i shmen t , p a r t o f i t
looked l i ke a j ai l .
A l ar ge p a r t o f the ir bu s i ne s s i s
p r i nt i ng o f bankno t e s for va r io u s countr i e s , and s to c k c e r ­
t i f ic ate s .
De sp i te the l im i t e d time , they promi s e d that
t he y ' d get the c a t a l o g r e ady for opening day .
E ve rybody
He
there w a s ve ry cooper at i ve , e spec i a l ly the engrave r .
l i ked Max Y avno ' s photograph s very muc h , a n d h e took g r e at
c ar e in making c o r r e c t ion s whe n nec e s s ary .
I n the me an t ime Gr aeme Ke ith c ame down from San F r an c i sc o
w i t h t h e museum van to p ic k u p t he c o l l e c t ion o f c e r amic s .
Th i s w a s a great r e l i e f to u s - - we knew he wo u l d h an d l e i t
c a r e fu l ly .
He l e n and I had one o ther t as k to do .
Gert rud ' s
a s he s an d I s a id t o He len ,
I had reque s te d
" S in c e we ar e go ing
91
to S an Fran c i sc o fo r the open ing o f t he show , we ' l l stop
on t he w ay in S equo i a and depo s i t h e r a s h e s there . "
favo r i t e p ar t
S equo i a w a s , next to P o i n t Lobo s , Gertrud ' s
o f C a l i fo r n i a .
W e b o t h knew i t ve ry we l l ; w e h a d ba c k­
p ac k e d there .
We knew many o f the mo s t beauti fu l t r ee s ,
and had something l i ke a p e r s o n a l r e l at ion s h ip w i t h t hem .
The r e w a s one p ar t i c u l ar smal l me adow which we bot h loved ,
c omp le t e ly o f f t he b e a t en p ath .
The re w a s n o t r a i l l eading
there .
Once i n our wi ld w ander ing s through the f o r e s t we
c ame upon that me adow and imme d i at e ly f e l l in love w i th i t .
E spec i al l y one p a r t i c u l a r t r e e , which wa s acro s s the me adow ,
and whe r e - - for s ome r e ason - - we n e ve r wen t .
We j u s t s aw
the t r e e a c ro s s the me adow , but we n e ve r wen t there ; perhap s
b e c a u s e the me adow w a s a lw ay s very wet .
I r ec a l l that I
shot s ome movie f i lm wi th Gertrude at t hat me adow , and s he
wa s i n a very good moo d and danced .
On the 2 1 s t o f Ju l y I took He l e n t o that me adow .
I h ad put
a s h e s in a very spec i al ve s s e l she h ad made y e ar s
G e r t rud ' s
be fo r e , and c a r r i e d i t i n my backpack up the h i l l , s topp i ng
at var i o u s spo t s that we had a lway s tre asure d , l ike a Sequo i a
t r e e that i s three quart e r s burned and s t i l l a l i ve .
Not only
i s the t r e e a l i ve , bu t way up in o ne o f t h e c avi t i e s c r e ated
by the f i re , there i s a sma l l dec iduou s t r e e g r owing , as i f
We c o n t inued down through the
s he l tered by the burned t r e e .
f o re s t , w ithout t r a i l , i n to the l i t t l e me adow and s t r aight
to the tree wh i c h Gertrud
and I never c ame c lo s e to .
The t r e e w a s e ven mo re incr e d i b l e t han we thought .
N umbe r
one , i t i s a twin t r e e ; i t s t art s o f f a s o ne and br an c h e s
o ut into two .
At the l ower p art there i s a ne a r l y G o t h i c
open i ng to wa l k in , and i n s ide t h e r e wa s a c av i ty , j u s t
l arge enough to ho ld G e r trud ' s
a s he s .
We l e f t t h e a s he s
the r e and c o ve r e d them w i t h some l e ave s and Sequo i a cone s .
[ I s howe d Ruth Bowman the ve s se l I had u s ed to c ar ry
Ge rtrud ' s
remain s . ]
RB :
What doe s that s ay on t he c o n t aine r ?
ON :
" Man c ome s from d u s t an d r e turn s to dus t . "
It was j ust
l a r g e enough t o ho l d h e r remain s .
We never had d i sc u s se d
i t be fore , that I wo u l d u s e i t for thi s purpo s e , o r that
s he s houl d , shou l d I d i e f ir s t .
It j u s t occurred to me
t hat i t wou l d be f i t t i ng .
RB :
D i d you o ften i n s c r i be on c e ramic s ?
ON :
Ge rt rud made the conta iner at Br ande i s .
but ion to the Juda i s t i c t r a d i t i o n there .
RB :
And the Hebrew come s from p r ay e r s o r fr om the B i bl e ?
ON :
I t ' s from the B ib le .
She w a s se arc h ing for an i n sc r ip t ion
for Jahr z e i t .
(A cont ainer to ho ld a c an d l e to be l i t on
the ann i ve r s ary for a dec e a s ed per s on . )
She m ade a l a r g e
I t w a s her c on t r i ­
92
c e r emon i al
Jahr z e i t
for S h l omo B a r d i n , o r rather f o r
Br ande i s I n s t i tute , and i t i s s t i l l the r e .
S he u s ed the
s ame i n s c r ip t i o n on o ther s , though t he wr i t ing was n o t
a l way s a s tr ad i t io n a l Hebrew wr i t i ng a s on th i s one .
From Sequo i a we went to S an F r an c i s c o an d ar r i ve d the r e on
the e ve n i ng be fo r e the show w a s to open at the de Youn g .
Gr aeme Ke i t h and h i s w i fe , I s ab e l l e , invited u s to have
di nne r at the ir ho u s e .
I r e c a l l i t w a s a very i nt imate p a r ty .
I r ec a l l that Ruth Li l i entha l w a s there , she w a s very muc h
Gr aeme Ke i th w a s unhappy t ha t t he
inte r e s ted i n that s how .
c a t a lo g s hadn ' t arr ived ye t , and so we r e we , o f c our se .
Wh i le we wer e having d inner there w a s a phone c a l l f rom the
mu s eum .
Thr ee hundred c at alog s had j u s t been de l i ve r e d by
p r i vat e me s s e n g e r .
I t mu s t have been about 9 : 3 0 o r 1 0 : 0 0 P . M .
A f t e r we had f in i shed d inner we a l l we n t to the mu s e um to
And e ve rybody wa s very p l e a s ed , n o t
look a t t he c a t a l o g s .
o n l y t hat a t l e a s t s ome o f t hem h a d arr ive d , but a l so t hey
were q u i t e handsome .
It s urpr i se d a l l o f u s , con s i der ing
that we h a d bare l y two mon t hs to p roduc e them .
I t was a
m i r ac le .
The show w a s b e a ut i f u l ly i n s t al l e d and q u i te we l l r e c e ive d
bo th b y t h e pub l ic an d t h e p re s s .
A f t e r a f ew day s i n S an
F r an c i s c o I went bac k to Lo s Ange le s .
Then in S ep tembe r I
wen t back to the de Youn g Mu s e um to he lp with the d i s ­
a s sembl ing o f the show be c au se we had bo r rowed m any p i e c e s
from pr ivate c o l l ec to r s , and a l so from mu seum s .
S i nc e I knew
the provenan c e of p r ac t ic a l ly eve ry p i e c e , I tho ught I ' d
bet t e r go and h e l p Gra eme Ke i th s o r t i t out , and t e l l h im
wh at goe s whe r e .
Be f o re l e aving Lo s Ange l e s I t a l k e d to
S he s a i d s he wou l d
Viccy Sp e r ry who had not s een the s how .
l i ke to s e e i t , so I invi ted he r to f l y w i th me t o San
Fr anc i sc o .
The s how wou l d s t i l l b e on , and the n ex t day i t ' s
go ing to be d i smant l e d .
She dec ided to c ome a long , and we
o r i g ina l ly wer e s uppo s e d to s t ay w i th the Spe rry ' s ( V i c c y ' s
nephew and h i s wi fe ) , but then the Sperry ' s had o the r
thought s , o r they had a l l the i r gue s t rooms o c c u p ie d .
In­
s te ad they rented rooms for u s a t the C l i ft .
We a r r i ve d i n
t he e a r ly a f t e rnoon and V i c c y a n d I t o o k a t ax i to the
de Young .
We to l d the dr iver to d r i ve u s to the de Young
Mus eum and a s ke d h im whether h e knew whe r e it wa£ . " Ye s ,
o f course . "
And he s t ar t e d t al k ing and s a id , " When you a r e
a t t he de Y oung Mu s e um be s u r e t o s e e t h e exhibi t i on o f the
Nat z l e r c e r amic s , i t ' s the l a s t day , " which I thought was
ve ry f unny .
And he made i t a mu s t , so we to l d h im we were
go i ng there , and then I introduc e d my se l f a l so .
( Wh i c h r e ­
minds me o f some thing t hat happened m any ye a r s be f o r e , i n
1 9 5 8 , when on t h e w ay t o New York Gertrud
and I stopped i n
Syra c u s e a t t h e Eve r son Mu s e um .
By c ha n c e they h a d a d i s ­
p l ay o f the i r c o l l e c t ion o f N a t z le r s i n o n e a r e a a t the t ime ,
and we wer e surpr i se d to s e e amo ng o th e r s s ome very o ld
p i e c e s wh ich we had n e ar ly forgotten .
I a lway s f in d i t
inte r e s t in g to s e e wo r k' I haven ' t s e e n f o r m any ye ar s , a n d
93
I t ' s intere s ting w i th p e op l e ,
my pre s en t r e a c t i on to i t .
to o , e xc e p t p e o p l e c hange , but the pot s ha dn ' t c h ang e d .
Though s omehow o r o t he r we thought they had .
And we we r e
s t an d i ng there and I po inted to o n e p ar t i c u l ar p i e c e and
s aid to Ge r t rud)
" Th i s i s n ' t s u c h a bad p ie ce .
As a mat­
t e r o f f a c t , i t ' s quite hand s ome . "
Th ere w a s a l a dy s t and­
ing next to me , o bv i o u s ly o ve r he a r i ng what I s aid , who f e l t
She s a id , " What do you me an , ' No t b ad ! ' The se are
o f f e n de d .
the mo s t beaut i fu l c e rami c s there are , and you s ho u l dn ' t
t alk about t hem l i ke that . "
And she we n t on , r e a l ly d re s ­
s ing me down , and f i na l l y Ge r t r ud
in troduc e d h er s e l f and
me to h e r , and s he w a s so emba rra s se d .
I s a i d , " I r e a l ly
d i dn ' t me an i t i n a derogatory w ay .
I j u s t hadn ' t s een
that p i e c e for s o long , and I tho ught that a t tha t t ime we
I t con s o l ed her . )
wo u l dn ' t be ab l e to do what we do now . "
Af t e r the d i smant l i ng o f the e xh i b i t ion i n S a n Franci s c o ,
Dur i ng t he
r e turn i n g to Lo s Ang el e s w a s s omehow a let down .
show , i t w a s j u s t wee k s a ft er Ge r t r ud ' s
d e ath , I rec e i ve d
i nnume r ab l e l et t e r s o f condo l ence f r om many f r i end s a n d
s t r anger s , a n d I t o o k gre at p a i n s in an swe r in g a n d a c know l ­
edg ing every note I go t in longhan d .
And among the m any
l e t t e r s I r e c e ive d was a short note from Gai l Reyno l d s , whom
I d i dn ' t rec a l l .
I t was a ve ry warm note .
I t o c c ur r e d t o
m e la t e r that m aybe she w a s t he per son I m e t at Rut h
Greenberg ' s ga l l e ry e i ght o r n ine mon t h s be fore .
S he i n ­
c l uded a f ew German wo r d s and that convinced me i t mu s t have
b e en s he .
I n an swe r i ng her n o t e I u s e d the invi t at ion fo r
the r e c e p t ion at the d e Young Mu s eum .
On the b a c k I thanked
h e r for her note , men t ion i ng the e xh i b i t ion and that she
m ight en j oy se e in g i t .
I d idn ' t e xp e c t h e r t o go t o S an
Fran c i sc o fo r t hat b ut , nonethe l e s s , there i t w a s .
The r e ­
I t w a s not an open ing r e c e p t ion , i t
c ep t ion w a s i n Augu s t .
w a s i n t he middle o f the show .
And a l l o f a sudden Ga i l
O f c o ur s e , I
app e a r e d the re and I d idn ' t r e c o gn i z e her .
She s eemed to have change d , and
ne ve r exp e c t e d her the r e .
she hardly r e c o gn i z ed me be c a u s e I had c hanged .
We sp o ke
f o r a f ew mi nute s , she to l d me wh ere she l ived in L o s Ang e l e s ,
and I s a i d , " We l l , i f yo u l ive i n L o s Ang e l e s , that ' s much
clo ser .
I l ive in Lo s Ang e le s too , and maybe we c o u l d me e t
in Lo s Angel e s agai n , an d I co u l d s how y o u a l i t t le more o f
the work that I did not e xh i b i t . "
That wa s the l a s t I s aw
o f G a i l unt i l l o n g a ft e r the show .
I fo rgo t , did I c a l l you f ir s t , o r did you c a l l one day ?
GN :
No , I didn ' t c a l l ; I wro te y o u about the insp i r a t i o n I f e l t
f rom t he show .
I wr o t e that the bowl s s e emed t o enc i rc l e
i n f i n i ty .
I s aw them a s the form s they we re and the f o rm s
they c o u l d have become , h a d they s pun too f a r .
O t t o s ee me d
s o depre s se d that I w anted to e n co urage h im to ho l d o n to l i fe .
ON :
Ye s , she wrote me abo ut the show , t hat ' s c o r rec t .
I n O c t o be r
I had to undergo a he r n i a o p e r a t ion a t U . C . L . A .
B u d d i e S p er ry
wa s in Europe at t he t i me ; s he knew about i t and s he wrote
94
that I shou ld c ome and u s e her hou se to r e c up e r a t e there .
Her ho u s ekeeper w a s there who wou l d c o o k f o r me , and her
s ec re t ary wa s there , and they wou l d t ake care o f me wh i le
I r e c up e r a t ed .
I shou l dn ' t go home .
I ac c e pted the i n ­
v i t a t i o n , a n d I l i ve d i n g r e a t l uxury f o r about a we e k o r
I wa s p amp e r e d and t ak e n c ar e o f .
t e n d ay s at h e r hou s e .
A l so , i t was muc h e as i e r to go for a wa l k b e c a u s e I d i d n ' t
have to c l imb s t ai r s , I d i dn ' t h ave to negot i at e t he s t e ep
d r i vew ay .
I c o u l dn ' t d r i ve ye t , o f c o ur s e .
But a s soon a s
I c o u l d d r i ve aga i n , I wen t home and I f e lt the u r g e to g o
to Sequo i a .
I t w a s t he e n d o f October , I had a d inne r i n ­
v i t at ion out we s t , a n d I knew G a i l l i ve d i n S an t a Mon i c a
C anyon , s o I c a l l e d her and s ai d I wo u l d l i ke t o c ome by and
see her .
S he had to ld me that s he s c u lp t s , and I thought i t
might be a good i d e a to c omb ine a s hort v i s i t w i th her w i th
I wen t t he r e i n the a ft e rnoon , stopped
my d inner engageme n t .
br ie f ly a t her hous e , l oo k e d at some o f he r wor k and men t io n e d
tha t on t he fo l low i n g Mon day o r Tue sday I wa s go i n g t o Sequo i a ,
i n to t he mount a i n s .
I n e e d e d fre sh a i r , and I n e e d e d t o s e e
whet he r I w a s he a l e d and i f I c o u l d wa l k .
S h e r e p l ied t ha t
she wou l d a l so l i ke to go t o Sequo i a , she h a d ne ver been there .
I ' 1 1 s t ay a we e k . "
And I s ai d , " We l l , why don ' t y o u come up .
I knew she w a s te ac h ing s c ho o l then .
" Yo u c an c ome up fo r
t he we e ken d , i f you w an t to .
I ' m sur e I won ' t have any d i f ­
f ic u l ty f in d i ng a room for y ou . "
S h e s a i d , y e s , she ' d l i ke
I d i dn ' t know
to c ome .
I didn ' t know whe ther she wou ld .
her at a l l , whether s he j u s t s a id i t , but I s a id , " I ' l l go
and rent a room for you , " wh ich I did .
I t w a s q u i t e c o ld i n Sequo i a , be low fre e z ing a t n i g ht .
I
we n t for s ho r t wa l k s an d c o u l d s t i l l fee l my woun d , but i t
The we e kend c ame , Fr iday n i gh t ,
g o t b e t t e r w i th w a l kin g .
I w a s s i t t ing in the c a f et e r i a having d inne r when Ga i l
a r r i ve d , e xa c t ly four ho ur s a f t e r s c ho o l c lo s ed .
That
e ven i n g we we n t for a short w al k in Sequo i a , and at n ight
e verything l o o k s gho s t l i ke .
( Ha ve you ever be en to Sequo i a ?
Th i s i s a mu s t , a must ! )
S equo i a tree s , regard l e s s whe t he r
they a r e de ad o r a l i ve , a r e wonde r s , e sp e c i a l ly t he root
s tructur e s o f f a l l en t r ee s , or d e t a i l s o f root s truc ture s .
That n i ght I t o o k her to one o f the fa l l en t r e e s and we
c o u l d j u s t s e e the bare out l ine o f it in the moon l i ght ,
my s te r i o u s and ama z ing .
The ne xt d ay I s ai d , " We l l , I ' ve
I wou ld l i ke to t ake you to a p l ac e
been here for a we e k .
wh ich I l i ke very much , a s ho r t h i ke , o n ly f our m i l e s up
and then back down aga i n , and i t ' s an e a sy h i ke . "
It is
mo s t ly up on the way there t o a lake c a l l e d H e ather Lake .
Se quo i a i s 6 5 0 0 fe e t e l evat io n .
He ather Lake i s a l i tt le
b e low 9 0 0 0 f e e t .
We s t arted h i king and in p l a c e s there w a s
i c e on t he t r a i l , whe r e ve r t h e r e w a s wate r i t w a s fro z en .
Howe ve r , when we go t up to about 8 0 0 0 f e e t e l eva t io n , there
w a s q u i te a b i t o f s now .
I d idn ' t e xp e c t that .
I wo re my
r e gu l a r moun t a i n s ho e s , but Ga i l walked i n tenn i s shoe s .
GN :
Wi th one pa ir o f s o ck s , thin soc ks .
95
ON :
I t w a s o n l y about a mi l e from whe r e we h i t the s now to
He athe r Lake , but t he snow go t deeper an d deepe r , and I
f in a l ly s a i d to G a i l , " I th ink we shou l d turn aroun d , " and
she s a id , " No , I wou l d l i ke to go on . "
" Yo u have no shoe s ,
" I s t i l l wou l d l i ke t o go on .
I wou l d l i ke to s e e
r e a l ly . "
Heather L ake . "
B y t hat t ime the land s c ape g o t very be aut i ­
It was Gai l ' s
f u l and very H i gh- Si e r r a- i sh - - f a s c inat ing .
f i r s t e xp e r i e nce i n t he mounta in s .
S o she c ame beh i n d me .
I went f ir s t s o I c o u l d b l a z e the t r a i l and at l e a s t she
had s ome foo t s tep s to s tep into , and we got to He ather Lake .
F o r tun at e l y there we r e l a rge r o c k s ne ar the lake wh i c h we r e
warm enough s o t h e s n o w had me l t e d o f f , a n d we l ay down and
had o ur l un c h the r e .
It was at that t ime I s t ar t e d to ad­
mire her , that she was so s t ubborn and wou l d do some t h i n g
l i ke that .
GN :
Yo u didn ' t know how r e l ie ved I w a s that we c ame to the snow ,
b e c a u s e my f e e t b e c ame numb and I c o u l dn ' t fee l my b l i s t e r s .
ON :
Go ing b a c k was p r o bab l y mo r e d i f f i c u l t f o r her b e c a u s e by
that t ime her f ee t we re q u i te s o r e .
I c o u l d s e e from the way
she w a l ke d .
We go t b ac k to our lodging j u s t b e f o r e dark .
The next d ay w a s our l a s t d ay in Sequo i a , b e c a u s e the fo l ­
I s aid , " We ' 1 1 j u s t go f o r an
lowing day we h a d t o go home .
e a sy walk through the f o r e s t , " and she agr e e d to that .
I had a d e s i r e to go to the t r e e whe r e I had l e f t Gertrud ' s
ashe s four mon t h s e ar l ie r .
Abo ut a q u ar t e r m i l e f rom the
t ree is a very love ly spot along a s t r e am whe r e we s a t down
to h ave lun ch .
I e x c u s e d my se l f from G a i l and s a i d , " Ex c u s e
m e f o r a wh i le ; I wou l d l i ke to b e a l one . "
She d idn ' t know
whether I h ad to go b e hind a t r e e to u r i n a t e or wha te ve r
e l s e I wanted to do .
At any r a t e , I went to the t r e e , t he
uppe r p art o f wh ic h one c o u l d s e e from whe r e we s at .
Ro c k s
an d bou l d e r s b l o c k e d t h e view o f the l owe r p art a n d G a i l
I wen t the r e and I s t ay e d
c o u l d not s e e whe r e I wa s go ing .
fo r a wh i l e .
When I c ame b a c k s omet hing s t r ange happe n e d .
We s t ar t e d our lun ch - - probably some bre ad and s a l ami and
Ga i l l o o ke d
che e s e an d dr ink ing t he water from the s t r e am .
i n t h e d i r e c t ion o f t h e t r e e a n d s aid s udden ly , " Lo o k at that
t r e e over t he r e , that tree i s g lo wing .
The r e is an aur a
I f e lt a c o ld c h i l l runn i n g down my sp i ne , I
around i t . "
I d idn ' t s ay any t h in g .
We c on t inued our h i ke ,
r ea l ly d i d .
mak ing a l oop through the fore s t and b ac k t o the mo te l .
He r
remark about the t r e e l ingered in my min d .
The n e xt day we
bo th , each in our own c ar , wen t down the moun t a in s to g o home ,
she to Santa Mon ic a and I to Ho l l ywood .
On the way I s topped
at an open m ar ket n e ar Exeter wher e Gertrud
and I had
s topped many t ime s be fo re b e c au s e they had wonder fu l f r e s h
ve get ab l e s a n d fru i t , a n d I l o a d e d up .
Next th ing I s aw
G a i l w a s there too do ing the s ame .
S in c e we me t aga i n , we
made a date to have dinner together at a r e s t aurant about
h a l fway to Lo s Ange l e s , and after that we f ina l l y p ar t e d .
96
Aft e r t ha t Sequo i a out i n g we s aw e ac h other mo r e frequent l y .
I i nvi ted her ove r to the ho u s e .
That w a s the b e g i n n i n g o f
our r e l at io n s h ip .
I wa s g l a d t o know how muc h Ga i l e n j oyed
nature .
And as e n j oy ab l e as I f ind nature , as soo t h i n g a s
I a lway s fee l i t , i t i s wo nde r fu l t o share i t w i th s ome bo dy
e lse .
On Thank s g iving D ay o f t hat y e a r we dec i d e d to d r i ve
to D e a t h Val l ey t o g e ther .
G a i l hadn ' t s e e n Death Val ley ,
and I hadn ' t been there fo r t h i r ty y e ar s o r mo r e , and I
thought we both wou l d en j oy i t .
We drove toward s L one P ine
f ir s t , t r ave l ing a long the H i gh S i e rr a on the l e f t , when
s h e s a i d , " Wh at do yo u think , t ha t i n s t e ad o f go i n g t o the
" Any th ing you
de s e r t we c on t inue on into the mounta i n s ? "
s ay , any t h i n g i s a l l r ight w i th me . "
We s t ayed o ve rn i ght in
B i s ho p and then c o n t inued on t he ne xt d ay and wen t to Br i dge ­
p o r t and h i ked into the moun t a i n s fr om there .
S ome t ime b e ­
fo re , when Ga i l v i s ited m e i n Lo s Ange l e s , I s a i d , " Yo u know ,
a s I th ink o f the s ho e s you wo r e when we we nt to H e a t h e r Lak e ,
why don ' t you t ry Gert rud ' s
mo un t a i n s ho e s , p e r ha p s t hey
She t r i ed them on and they f i t , and e ve r
w i l l f i t y ou . "
s ince then s h e ha s wo rn the s e s ho e s many t ime s .
GN :
They ' re my C indere l l a s l ippe r s .
I f e lt b l e s se d to we ar t hem
hundred s o f mi le s on bac k p a c k t r i p s in the H i g h S i e r r a .
Wh en
they we r e wo rn o ut , I rep l ac e d them w i th a s imi l a r p a i r .
ON :
That day , h i k i n g from Br idgeport t o B arney Lake , wa s t he
s ho e s in the mounta i n s and
f i r s t t ime she u s e d Ge rtrud ' s
I t w a s a love ly day , a n d ba c k
it was a d i f f e rent f e e l ing .
in Br idgepo rt w e h a d d inner in a r e s t aurant oppo s i te the
courtho u s e .
The dinner w a s mi s e rab le but the view o f the
c ourthou s e , wh ich wa s l i t at n i ght , wa s very c ha rmi n g .
The fo l lowing d ay i t w a s r a in ing .
We went j u s t for a l i t t l e
wa lk a n d then , the n e xt day , we h ad t o go b a c k t o Lo s
Angel e s .
G a i l i n s i s ted that I f i n i s h G e r tr ud ' s
wo r k .
I
a l so knew I had to f in i sh i t , but at the t ime I s t i l l c o u l d
n o t s e t f o o t i n the wo r k s hop .
I w a s so u se d to h av i n g
Gert rud
s i t a t t he whee l in one r o o m wh i l e I wo rked i n t he
other on g l a z e s ; the ide a o f g o i n g into the wo r kshop and
wo rking there a lone w a s comp le t e ly unth inkab l e t o me .
It
took m any mon th s unt i l I cou l d g e t back t o the work shop , and
e ve n then I d i d not wo r k on any o f h e r po t s .
I wor ked on
mo bi l e s , s ome thing I had done on and o f f s ince t he e ar l y
f i ft i e s .
[ Th i s , by t h e way , i s one o f t h e f i r s t one s I d i d ,
I think in 1 9 5 1 o r 1 9 5 2 , and I d i d a c o up l e o f mo bi l e s in
met a l . ]
I t was my f i r s t ac t i vi ty in the wor k s ho p a f t e r
I f ind i t comp le t e l y ab s o rbing and in­
Gertrud ' s de at h .
tr iguing , hav i n g to think and u s ing some mat hemat i c s to
f igure out the ba lance and moveab i l ity .
A l s o , i t was some ­
how very s o o t h ing , and I d idn ' t t ake i t too s e r i ou s ly .
To
s t art on Ge r t rud ' s . l a s t wor k , I wa s a f r a i d that I m ig ht
ruin some o f i t i f I d i d not have c omp l e t e c oncentr at ion to
wor k on i t .
97
Bud d i e Sp e r ry wa s very c o m fo r t i ng dur ing that t ime .
Howeve r , she wa s a l so s u f f er ing f rom c an c e r and I b e l ie ve ,
a lmo s t a y e ar a-f te r '3e rt rud '--: s--- d e ath , he r d o c to r s d i agno s e d
t hat she had l ung c an ce r .
B y that t ime , Ga i l l i ve d h e r e
wi th me .
When Bud d i e invi ted m e to her house one e ve n ing ,
I a s ke d i f I c o u ld br ing G a i l , but she w a s no t open to
I we n t there by my s e l f , and i t w a s the
s t r an g e r s anymo r e .
f i r s t t ime I l e f t Ga i l a lo n e here , and as she t o l d me a f t e r ­
w ar d s , s he spent the who l e evening wh i le I w a s gone w i th one
p ar t i c u l a r pot o f o ur s , e xp lor ing i t and s e e ing i t i n depth .
Than k s to Ga i l , a f t e r that e ve n i ng , I fe lt s ec u r e e nough t o
b e g i n c omp let ing Ge r t r ud ' s
un f in i shed wo rk .
I shou l d men ­
t ion here that a l o t o f he r work h ad r ema ined un f in i shed be ­
c au s e during t ho s e l a s t mon th s , wh i le s he wa s s t i l l wo r k ing ,
I t r i e d to do a s muc h a s I c o u l d to he lp her , l i ke kne ading
c lay and he lp ing her with hou seho l d c ho r e s .
L a t e r on , cook ing ,
d i s hwa s hing and marke t in g was added , so o ften there w a s n ' t
any t ime at al l f o r me to g e t into the wor k s hop .
On day s
when she f e lt b e t t e r , G e r t r ud
s t i l l worked an d d i d throw a
f ew p iec e s , so there we r e ove r two hund red p i ec e s l e f t wh i c h
we r e not f in i shed yet .
Many o f them wer e c omp l e t e ly un ­
t o uched , o n ly a f ew o f them had been b i sque - f i r e d .
F i r s t I s t ar t e d to
would be perm anent
wa te r .
And then I
c a u s e s h e wrote i t
I s that c o rrec t ?
b i sque - f i r e e ve ry t h in g ; at l e a s t the c l ay
and c o u l d not be damaged ac c i den t al ly by
s t ar t e d g la z ing .
G a i l know s the d a t e b e ­
down ; i t w a s the 2 n d o f Novembe r , 1 9 7 2 .
GN :
Ye s .
I m ade n o t e o f the da t e b e c a u s e I pho tographed y o u
app lying the f i r s t brush s t r o ke o f g l a z e .
ON :
I t m ay s eem s t range , I s t ar t e d with the la s t p i e c e Gertrud
had made and then gr adua l ly p r o c e e ded very , very s lowly ,
very c a r e f u l ly , bec au s e I knew I w a s wo rking on a f in i te
number of p i e ce s .
The l a s t pot had been thr own on the whe e l
I wi l l s ay ,
and i t was u p t o me t o d o j u s t ice t o i t now .
w i thout sounding c o n c e i te d , some o f the mo s t be aut i fu l g l a z e s
c ame out dur i n g that p e r io d .
Ve ry f ew new one s , b e c a u s e I
had a l r eady dec i de d c e r t ain p i e c e s had to be w i th c e r t a i n
g l a z e s , but I w a s s t i l l exper ime n t i n g a n d dur ing th i s l i tt l e
b i t o f e xp e r ime n t at ion s ome o f t h e mo s t b e au t i fu l one s
deve loped .
( La t e r on , i f you ' re inte r e s te d , I ' 1 1 show you
s ome o f them . )
RB :
When you s ay " e xp e r iment ing , '1 what do you me an ?
y o u do i n g ?
ON :
I nven t i ng new g l a ze compo s i t i o n s and d i f f er e n t f i r in g t e c h ­
n ique s .
We spoke q u i te a b i t about r educ ing and the i de a o f
exp lor ing the a c c ident a l , the natur a l even t s wh i c h t ak e p la c e
in the k i ln .
For in s t ance , I co l l e c t e d a few cone s from
Gertrud ' s
tree an d brought them home an d introduc e d them
with other mater i al s dur ing r educ t ion f i r i ng s .
I don ' t know
Wha t w e r e
98
whether i t w a s my s p i r i tu a l invo lvemen t in the proc edur e ,
but they produc e d won d e r fu l e ff e c t s .
We c o l l ec ted r e s in
--------�f-rem-t:-re es , s eme t:-h-i-n(j- I-haE1fl __L_ t:- El0ne-be- :f0- r e, - a-fl El-btir fie d i-1::­
in the k i ln and achi e ved t r u ly f a s c i n a t ing r e s u l t s .
On ly
o cc a s io n a l ly I wo u l d be u s ing d i f f e r ent f o rmu l at ion s o f
glazes .
Y o u know that f r om the very beg inn ing I never h a d
I exper imented w i th
any formal e duc a t i o n in my f ie ld .
e ve rything and u s e d a l l s o r t s o f th ings nobody in h i s
r ight m i nd wou l d u s e .
I t wa s a con s t an t e xp l o r ing o f
" what happened i f . '1 Now , a ft e r forty y e a r s , I knew a f ew
i n s t anc e s o f ' ' what happen s i f . '1 But what happen s i f I m ake
a 9hange in t h i s d ir e c t i o n , i s it go ing to go th i s way o r
i s i t go ing to g o that way ?
I c an b a s e my e xp e r ime n t s o n
q u i t e a b i t o f p r e vi o u s e xp e r ience , but i t i s s t i l l e xpe r i ­
men t ing b e c au s e I s t i l l don ' t know the f in a l outc ome in
advance .
I n 1 9 7 2 L loyd Herm an c ame and we d i sc u s s e d the po s s i b i l i ty
o f a r e t r o s pec t i ve at the Renwic k G a l l e ry .
A date w a s s e t
f o r the f a l l o f 1 9 7 3 , a n d t ha t w a s s ome thing wo rth wo rking
for .
They a l so had fun d s for a catalog which turne d o u t to
b e quite be aut i fu l and d i f f e rent f r om other c at a l o g s o f our
wo r k t ha t h a d been p ub l i shed b e fo r e , an d qu ite " Sm i t h s on i an "
a s i t w a s p r o p e r ly r e s e arc hed .
Wha t happene d i n a Lo s
Ange l e s c at al o g d i dn ' t happen t h i s t i me .
Then we had four
proo freader s , inc l ud i n g my s e l f , and due to the fact that I
wrot e i r i d e s c e n t with two " r ' s , " none o f the peop l e who r e a d
I mi s ­
t h e manu s c r ip t d i s co vered i t , inc luding my se l f .
spe l l e d i t to beg i n w i t h , and a f t e r i t h a d been p r i n t e d d i d
I l o o k a n d i t looked funny .
I looked i t u p i n t h e d i c t i o n a ry
- - sure enough , one " r . "
But every t h i n g f o r the Smi t h s on i an
w a s proo fread by I don ' t know how many p e o pl e .
Lot s o f c o r ­
r e spondence back and forth , layout s , ga l l ey proo f s , and
f in a l l y I f e lt that a d i s t an c e o f 3 0 0 0 mi l e s w a s too muc h .
I we n t to New York to t alk t o the p r in t e r s , m a i n ly on a c c o un t
o f t he c o lor reprodu c t i on s .
By t h a t t ime t h e f un d s h ad run
low .
Thank Go d , the pr inter unde r s tood what i t was a l l abo u t ,
and the c a t al o g turned o u t very we l l .
Renwic k schedu l e d a f ormal r e c ep t i o n dur in g the s how in
Ga i l and I , a ft e r having
Wa sh ington f o r t he 2 0 th Septembe r .
known e ach other f o r c l o s e to two ye ar s , f e lt that we shou l d
l e g i t imi z e our r e l a t i o n sh-ip-,-and- we dec ided to g e t m ar r ie d .
For s e n t ime n t al rea son s we dec ide d t h i s e vent to t ak e p la c e
at t h e courthou s e in Br idgepo r t , C a l i fo rn i a .
We se t a da t e
f o r t h e 7 t h o f Septembe r , a s we were due in Wa s h ington o n
t h e 2 0 th f o r t he r e c e p t io n .
We g o t our marri age l ic en s e
he re i n Los Ang e l e s and , t o make s u r e t h at some bo dy at the
courtho u s e wo u l d be t he r e to mar ry u s , Gai l wrote a note to
the courtho u s e in Br idgepo rt wh i c h r e ad :
" De a r Mono County
Co urtho u s e :
We intend to get mar r i e d on s uch and such a
date . . . , " and she p romp t ly r e c e ived a note back , " Th a t ' s
f i ne , Judge Robert s i s go ing t o m arry you , but i t h a s to be
in t he mo rn ing be fo re ten o ' c l o c k that d ay b e c a u s e at ten a
trial begin s . "
99
GN :
" Af te r y o u ' r e mar r i e d t he t r i a l b e g in s , " which we bo t h
found amu s ing .
ON :
We drove the r e two d ay s e ar l i e r an d o n t he 6 th o f S eptember
we h i ke d up to B arney Lake ( o ur fir s t o u t i n g toge the r two
y e ar s e ar l ie r ) , and t he we ath e r w a s s t i l l warm e nough t o go
It w a s
for a swim i n the c o l d lake to pur i fy our s e l ve s .
r e fr e sh ing , Barney Lake i s c lo s e to 9 0 0 0 f e e t e leva t ion and
i t w a s S e p tembe r , a f t e r a l l .
The ne xt day Judge Harry Rob ert s
m ar r ie d u s , and h e w a s very c o op e r a t ive when we w an t e d to
t ak e p ic tur e s o f that e ven t .
He h ad a b e au t i fu l benc h , hand­
c a rved , wh i c h gave the c ourt room r e a l s ty l e .
Lat e t he s ame morning we s t ar t e d by c ar on our w ay e a s t .
Br idgepo rt had been abo ut 3 0 0 m i le s out o f our way .
The
f ir s t n i ght we spent in N e v ad a , and then gradua l l y we wo rmed
our way t o Wa s h ington .
GN :
Do you re c a ll the dinner on o ur f i r s t l e g a l n i ght , wher e we
d i ne d ?
ON :
Y e s , t h e r e w a s a j ukebox ,
GN :
And the l a dy o n the r a d i o s inging over the bac kg round drone
She s ang , in empha t i c vibrato ,
o f j ing l i n g s lo t m ac h i ne s .
" Ne ar e r , my Go d , to The e e ee e . "
I t w a s a surrea l i s t i c e x­
p e r i e nce .
ON :
The r e c e p t ion at the Renwic k w a s a very fe s t i ve o c c a s ion .
A c at e r e d d inner w a s se r ve d in the G a l a S a lo n o f the b u i l d ing
and the gue s t s inc luded m any c o l l e c t o r s who had l o a n e d o b ­
j ec t s t o t h e e xh ibi t i o n .
I w a s invited to l e c ture at
One o f t he p eop le there t o o k a v i d e o ­
Mon tgomery Co l l ege .
t ape to b e s hown a t the Renwic k in c o n j un c t ion w i t h the
s how o f our wo r k .
RB :
And th i s w a s a l l wor k that you had done w i t h Ger t rud ?
ON :
Ye s .
I t inc luded for the f i r s t t ime some p i ec e s she h a d
n e ve r s e e n .
I comp le ted t h e m a f t e r her de at h .
RB :
And y o u had not y e t be gun wo rking with c l ay ?
ON :
No , at that t ime I h ad not y e t be gun wo r king with c l ay .
I
I
wa s s t i ll in the proc e s s o f comp le t ing Ge rtr ud ' s wo r k .
t o uc hed c l ay o n l y a ft e r i t had been d r i e d , s o to spe ak , f o r
the f i r ing , and after t he f i r i n g , to app ly t h e g l a ze s .
Some
o f the very late p i ece s t hat I s e l e c t e d were very mo ving .
I think i t was on t he th i rd o f September b e fo r e we got t o
Wa s h i ngton t hat t h e r e wa s a n e d i to r i a l in t h e Wa s h i ngton
P o s t about the s how .
L l oyd He rman was quite s ur pr i s e d ;
there h a d neve r been an e d i to r i a l about any p r e viou s s how .
I t was ve ry s e n s i t i ve ly wr i t t e n , d e s c r i bing t he show a s
some th ing very uni que - - a mu s t i f you we r e inter e s te d in
c e r am i c s .
I was a l so surpr i s e d abo ut a review o f t h e s how
in the e d i to r i al page .
I r emembe r .
100
II
II
A f t e r l e aving W a s h ington , s in c e we were in that part o f
t he c o unt ry , we drove t o New York f o r a f ew d ay s an d then
-------- we
· n-- E-- up-n- orth- .t n- to-l'�rew--E n-g-1- an -d-, -- _t n--c .t me--co-s e_e_s_ome_o_ f_-C he
fall colors .
And t hen s l ow ly b a c k to Lo s Ange l e s .
When we
wer e s t i l l i n Ve rmont , the S i x ay War s t ar t e d in I s r ae l ,
and I wa s ve ry s ho c k e d .
I had a f e e l in g , he aven knows
whe ther we ' l l get home , whe t h e r there w i l l b e e nough g a s o ­
B ut we d i d
l i ne to g e t home .
G a i l thought I wa s j o king .
g e t to L o s Ange l e s .
T he g a s o l ine shortage s t ar t ed soon
a ft e rward s .
In
I n 1 9 7 4 - 1 9 7 5 nothing e ar t h - shaking happened in my l i fe .
1 9 7 6 I b e gan wo r king with c l ay i n e arne s t .
I was sti ll
wor king on Ge rt rud ' s c p o t s a t t hat t ime .
Even t oday t h e r e
a r e s t i l l abo ut twenty whi c h a r e n o t c omp l et e ly f i n i s hed .
They ' re o n l y part ly g l a ze d , f i r ed , but incomp l e t e .
In 1 9 7 6
w he n I s t arted to u se my han d s i n c l ay aga in , I began m ak ing
c e r amic con s t r uc t ion s , so to s pe ak .
One day I went to the
F o l k Art Mu s e um an d r an into E d i th Wy l ie .
She inqu i r e d what
I wa s d o i n g and s he s ai d that s he wou l d be inte r e s t e d in
s ee ing my wo r k .
S he c ame he r e with her husban d , Fr ank , and
was q u i te s urpr i se d by what she s aw .
I gue s s , l i ke eve rybo dy
S h e s a id that
e l s e , she tho ught I too d ie d f i ve y e a r s ago .
I sugge s t e d i t wo u l d
s he wou l d l i ke t o have an e x h i b i t ion .
b e n i c e t o h ave a j o in t e xh i b i t ion o f G e r t rud ' s
wo r k and
my own new wo r k , and she agreed to that .
Th at exhib i t ion
opened in October 1 9 7 7 .
Wh i le mak i ng p l a n s f o r the e xh ib i ­
t ion , and the p l a n s mat e r i al i ze d , she i n fo rmed o ther p e o p l e
w i t h t he r e su l t that t h e Art C en t e r i n S co t t s d a le wan t e d
t h e show , a n d so d i d t h e u n i ve r s i ty in northern Ar i zona .
Ga i l d i d a l l o f the p ho t o ­
Bot h Ga i l and I we r e ve ry a c t i ve .
g raphy f o r t h e c at a l o g , a n d then i n add i t i on s h e m ade a
numb e r o f large p r i n t s to b e inc l uded a s p a r t o f the e xh i ­
I des igned
bi t i on .
We t r i e d t o he lp with the i n s t a l l a t ion .
spec i al c a s e s for t he s how .
I t wa s an i d e a I had some t ime
a go and , fo rtuna t e l y , i t wo r ked out b e aut i fu l l y .
We had a
good r e c e p t i o n at the mu s e um he r e and then the show t r ave led
to Ari zona wher e it w a s suppo s e d to open on t he f i r s t o f
Decembe r .
John Arm s trong c ame to Lo s Ange l e s to p i c k up
He took e verything t o S c o t t s d a l e
the ob j ec t s for t he s how .
in a s t at ion w agon the day t h e show c lo s e d h e r e in L o s
Ange l e s .
That gave h im abo ut a mo nth t o in s t a l l the s how ,
He s a i d
and we s a id that we wou ld love to go t o A r i zona .
he wou l d l i ke t o have u s there f o r t he open ing , s o we
dec i d e d to go there on t he 3 0 th o f No vembe r .
Whe n we go t
to t he Ar t Cente r , they had j u s t bu i lt s ome contrapt ion s
w i t h s h e lve s , by f a r not s u f f ic i ent to h o l d e ve ryth ing t h a t
w a s s hown at the C r a f t a n d F o l k Art Mus e um , but h e c l a imed
i t wou l d be .
They we re not f in i shed with the c arpentry y e t ,
but John s a id , " We l l , we ' re go ing to p a i n t i t ton ight , and
we ' l l s t ay up al l n ight unt i l that is done , and tomo r r ow we ' l l
i n s t a l l t he show .
When you c ome bac k tomo r row i t w i l l a l l
b e f in i s he d . " G a i l w a s furiou s .
10 1
I
r
GN :
You we r e fur i o u s , too .
.--1-•-1-1- h-e-1 p
, -'' -Y-o u- ' -re-nu t-go-tng-to-tn s t-a-1-1-t -h-e-s -howeJN- :--s -rre- s- a-t di n s t al l the s how , bec ause i f you wo r k a l l n ight long , I don ' t
tru s t you to han d l e Ge rt rud ' s
pots . "
On the f i r s t o f
Dec embe r , open ing day , t hey we r e n o t y e t f in i shed w i th
The ope n i ng wa s i n t he evening and
p ai n t i ng the s h e l ve s .
t hey had s e n t o ut invi t at i o n s for that .
Many peo p l e c ame ,
and among them qu ite a few o f o ur f r iend s , and a l l we c o u l d
s ay w a s th at , un fortunate ly , t h e t h i n g s we r e n o t y e t unp a c ked .
I t was
P l e a s e come aga i n , t h i s i s the way S co t t s da l e wor k s .
a " f i r s t " f o r u s , a s far a s e xh i b i t ion s were c o n c e rn e d :
the
exhibition which opened three day s after 1' open ing d ay . i i
Around t e n o ' c lo c k in t he eve n i n g t hey p u t up a s i gn , " So r ry ,
due to c ir c ums t an c e s beyond our c on t r o l the N at z l e r exh i b i ­
That s ign
t ion i s n o t go i n g t o open un t i l noon t omo rrow . "
s t ay e d on for two mo r e day s bec au s e tomo r row at noon nobody
s howe d up , and by one minute p as t noo n , the s i gn wa s go o d
f o r t h e fo l low ing d ay .
F i n a l l y , G a i l i n s t al l e d t h e e xh ib i ­
t ion a f t e r they had p ai n t e d the she lve s and put t h e g l a s s i n
p l ace .
Then we we nt to northern Ar i zo n a , to F l ag s t af f , j u s t
to l o o k a t t he s p ace whe r e the e xh i b i t ion wa s g o i n g to b e .
I und e r ­
We d i dn ' t go to s e e t he e xh i b i t ion a f te r i t opene d .
s t and i t opene d on t ime .
RB :
S i n c e you don ' t throw po t s , I gather , you m ak e con s tr u c t i ons
o f c l ay s l ab s ; what l e d you from f o c u s ing on the g l a z e to
wo rking with the c l ay ?
GN :
The sp ace in the wor k shop change d .
ON :
We l l , t hat w a s not the on ly thing .
I l i ke to wo r k w i t h c l ay .
I d i d wo r k w i th c l ay in Vie nna , I worked with c lay at i n t e r ­
I did a f ew p i ec e s o f s c ulpture , even when
va l s h e r e .
Gert rud an d I wo r ked together .
At that t ime I a l s o wo rked
One o f t he
on con s tr u c t i o n s , t hough of a d i f f e r e n t nature .
main r e ason s , I gue s s , i s that I had a f ew ide a s I wan t e d
t o g e t out o f my mind an d s e e how they c o u l d b e so l ve d by
I t may s eem s t r an ge , but
con s �ruc t i n g w i th c l ay s l ab s .
one ' s wo r k deve l o p s a s one progre s s e s .
L i ke one o f my
wr i t e r f r iend s te l l s me , when he s t ar t s a nove l he h a s an
i d e a wha t the content should be and a l l o f a s udden , wh i l e
h e wo r k s , h i s c h a ra c t e r s begin t o g e t a l i f e o f the i r own .
They s t art doing d i f f erent t h i n g s than o r i g ina l ly p l ann e d .
RB :
And that happen s with your wo r k ?
ON :
I t do e s .
Wh i l e I wo r k , I get di f f e r en t i d e a s - - bec a u s e
e i ther a concept c annot b e so l ve d i n t h e d i r e c t i on I am
go ing , or I run out o f c lay , I have to change some t h i n g , and
i t become s s ome thing d i f f erent .
One of the form s I f e l t
quite intr i gued with i s a f ra gmented c ub e , o r a f ra gmented
I d i dn ' t think o f i t unt i l one d ay when , in mak i n g
tetr agon .
a fo rm , I ran out o f c l ay .
I had some s c r ap s l e f t , and they
102
��
happ e n e d to be d i f f e rent th i c kne s s e s .
I t o c c ur r e d to me
to put them togethe r , an d t he r e w a s thi s f r a gme n t e d c ube .
An d then l at e r- oR�I d i d i t i nt e n- t- iena l ly and the pFepo r t ion s
bec ame me an i ng f ul and f a r mor e p l e a s i ng .
I had to thi nk
It is
abou t t he p roport ion s the s e fragmen t s s ho u l d have .
n o t j u s t p ur e acc ide n t , but t he ide a i s to make u s e o f o n e ' s
l imi t at ion s , e i ther gene r a l l i mi t at ion s , o r l imi t at i on s o f a
part i c u l a r moment .
GN :
Wh i c h I think you ' ve alway s done .
ON :
Y e s , to a degr e e , that ' s true .
RB :
When you c ame to th i s c o untry you s a i d you brought a l o t o f
mat e r i al s .
You ' ve e xhau s t e d tho s e mate r i al s e xc e p t for t he
p l a s t i c i ne - -
ON :
We o n ly took the mat er i a l s we h a d le ft i n V i e nna bec a u s e we
d idn ' t w ant to le ave them there ; we knew we wou l d u s e mo s t
o f them h e r e .
RB :
But o f the c l ay s that you have been buy i ng , what nat i on a l i ty
o f c l ay , o r what kind o f c l ay ?
Do you have a p a r t i c u l a r
f e e l ing about i t ?
ON :
Ye s , the f e e l i ng I had from the very beg inning w a s to u s e
l o c a l c l ay s wheneve r po s s i b le .
Mo s t p e op l e a t the t ime u s ed
p r e p a r e d c l ay s , many o f whi ch c ame from the E as t , o r f rom
Geor g i a , Ke ntucky , Tenne s se e , e t c .
And t hey were a l l comme r ­
c i a l l y avai lab le he r e .
I f e l t I w anted t o u s e a loc a l c l ay .
C l ay i s ve ry a bun dant anywhe r e .
You p r o ba b ly c an f ind s ome
I w a s to l d the r e
s o r t o f c l ay i n s ome o f the c anyon s h e r e .
Even at t he t ime
we r e c l ay mine s o n Alber Hi l l , n e a r Corona .
when we d i dn ' t have our equ ipme n t y e t and we wor ked at
D r . Mon a c o ' s , I t r i e d to f ind o ut whe re l o c a l c l ay c o u l d b e
ha d .
I remember the f i r s t t ime we d rove a l l the way t o
C o r o n a and p i c ked up s ome c lay r ig ht at the m ine .
T h e y j us t
put i t in bur l ap bag s , and c h arged f i fty c en t s f o r a b a g that
we ighed 1 2 5 poun d s o r mor e .
RB :
I t w a s a l r e ady mo i s t ?
ON :
No , d ry , d ry l ump s o f c l ay , the way i t c ame from the m i ne .
O f c o ur s e , i t had a l o t o f impur i t i e s wh i ch had to b e r emoved
by s c reen i ng the c l ay .
Lat er I found that one o f the c h em i c a l
s upp l y hou s e s , L . H . But che r , so ld the s ame A l b e r H i l l c l ay i n
ground form , whi c h d i dn ' t me an that the impur i t ie s we r e t aken
out , but they were smal l enough and in a mo r e p a l atab l e form .
From then on we purch a s ed that ground c lay , a s i t wa s muc h
e a s i e r to u s e .
O f cour s e , we d i d n o t u se the c lay a s s u c h
by i t se l f b e c a u s e i t wou l d not have b e e n s u i t ab l e f o r our
I t c an be u s ed for b r i c k s o r sewer p i p e s .
I had to
wo r k .
deve lo p a very s pe c i f i c c l ay bo dy for Gert rud ' s
purpo se .
S he threw suc h thin wa l l s that any impu r i ty wou l d have t hr own
103
her o f f b a l a nc e .
Remo ving t hem wou l d make a ho l e in the
To b e g in w i th , I prep ared the c l ay by s c re e n i ng
ve s se l .
i t by h an d .
Dur ing the f ir st y� ar o r s o I even mlxe d i t
b y hand i n a b ig c o n t a i n e r w i t h a two - by - four t o s t i r i t
with .
Later we go t a mixer , wh i c h w a s a great improvement .
But I s c r e e n e d i t through a very f in e s c r een ( ac t ua l ly i t
w a s a 1 0 0 me s h s c r e e n ) s o that t he c l ay w a s ve ry f i ne .
Over t he ye ar s , I c h anged the f o rmu l a t ion by a d d i n g i n ­
g re d i en t s to t h e c l ay t o improve i t s qua l i ty a f t e r f i r i ng ,
a l so to p reve n t exc e s s i ve warp i n g dur i n g d ry in g and f i r i n g .
I u s e d two d i f f e rent raw c l ay s .
One w a s a very red f i r ing
c lay , and the other one f i red bu f f .
T he red o n e w a s c a l l e d
They
A l b e rh i l l Re d and the bu f f one w a s c a l l e d Hi l l B lue .
both c ame from t he s ame r e g i o n ne ar Coron a .
L a t e r t he se
c l ay s bec ame unava i lab le b e c au s e , as I me n t ione d , Pac i f ic
C l ay Comp any p ur c ha s e d t he mine s and s topped s e l l in g the
So dur ing t he l a s t f i ve o r s i x ye ar s we
c l ay c omme rc i al ly .
u sed a d i f f e r e n t c l ay , a l so mi xing s e ve r a l c l ay s to g e t h e r
a n d add ing var i o u s ingre d i ent s t o i t .
I t wa s a c l ay c ompo ­
s i t i on t hat I invented for Gertrud
s p e c i f ic al ly , f o r h e r
I
purpo s e .
S he n e e de d a very p la s t ic a n d very f i n e c lay .
c o u ldn ' t u se t h at p a r t i c u l a r c l ay in my own wo r k b e c a u s e I
make muc h heavier p i ec e s .
To pre se r ve the f lat s ur fa c e s o r
s tr a i ght l ine s I u s e c lay m i xe d w i th g r o g and s and .
It i s
c o ar s e r , but i t s e r ve s my purpo s e .
RB :
Th i s grog i s u s e d c e r am ic that you g r i n d up .
ON :
Ye s , ground , f ir e d c lay .
I don ' t mix my own c l ay now bec au s e
i t i s t o o t i me c o n suming .
I d i d mix the c lay f o r G e r t r u �
a s I men t ioned .
Mak i n g very t h i n -wa l l e d ve s se l s , s h e u s e d
comp arat i ve l y l i t t l e c l ay .
Dur ing her who le l i fe s h e prob­
ab ly d idn ' t use mo r e than one o r two ton s of c l ay .
It m ay
s eem a l o t to you , but t h i s was ove r a p e r iod o f t h i r t y ­
I c an e a s i ly u s e f i ve hun dred poun d s o f c l ay
t h r e e ye ar s .
in one y e ar .
RB :
L a s t ye ar you had an e xh ib i t ion o f your p ie c e s abou t t h i s
t ime , in May and June , a t the Tr i ang l e G a l l ery i n S an
F r a n c i sc o .
Wa s that your f i r s t one -man s how ?
ON :
I t wa s t he f ir s t s how e xc l u s i ve ly de vo t e d to my wor k .
RB :
And you s howe d ve s se l s ?
ON :
Mo s t o f t hem were c o nt aine r s , but I t h ink o f them , too , a s
s c u l p t ur e ,
e ven t ho ugh we u s e s ome o f them at t ime s f o r
f lowe r s .
T h e y a r e q u i t e h an d s ome - - they ' re n o t t h e u s u a l
When m ak in g one o f them , I h ave m a i n l y ab s t r ac t
f lower v a s e .
f o rm i n mind :
I don ' t th ink o f them a s j u s t a " cont a in e r to
put s ome thing in . "
RB :
Wh en you we r e t al k ing be f o r e a bout your g l a ze s and when you
were t a lking about the e f f e c t s of l ight in natur e , do you
spec i f ic a l ly go after a s en s at ion you h ave v i s ua l ly , or do
you j u s t s e e k t h i s r e s e mb l ance ?
104
ON :
I wou l dn ' t e ven go that far .
An imp re s s ion one g e t s i n
n ature s ome t ime s t ak e s mo nth s o r e ve n y e ar s t o t r an s l a t e
�-i nto o n e ' s own-wor k .
I t ' s an expe r ie nc e you have, - whe t h e r
i t ' s mo ving c l o u d s t h a t sugg e s t f o rm s , o r rock format ion s ,
L i ke some wo nde r fu l br i l l i an t l ic h e n we
o r c o l o r s you s e e .
s aw i n t he H i g h S ie r r a , some luminous c ha rt r eu se , s ome sub ­
dued grey o r b r own , but al s o a br ight o r ange .
I don ' t e ve n
t h i nk c o n s c iou s ly o f i t .
Mayb e I shou l dn ' t s ay t h at b e c a u s e
o n c e I did s ay :
oh , t h a t l o o k s l i ke a g l a z e .
I m ay dr e am
o f a c o lor l i ke th i s .
I r e a l ly don ' t know .
I h ave had
p e r io d s , e ven t h i r ty and f o r ty y e a r s ago , but a l s o mo r e r e ­
c e n t ly , a n d mayb e eve n three mon t h s ago when I s a id , " We l l ,
I have comp l e t e l y run out o f i d e a s - - there ' s noth i ng e l s e
I want to do .
I s t i l l have t h r e e p i e c e s l e f t a n d I have to
g l a z e t hem , and I ' l l put t h i s o ld g l a z e on t hi s and another
o l d g l a z e on that and s o on .
Then all o f a sudden , I don ' t
know why , p e r h a p s a f t e r a n i ght ' s s le e p , o r a f t e r h e a r ing
mu s ic , o r a f t e r a w a l k , a l l of a sudden you get some new
Wher e do i d e a s
i n sp ir at io n and you try to work towar d s i t .
c ome from ? Who ha s e ver e xp l o r e d i t ?
How do e s t h e human
b r a in wo r k ?
Do you know , do I know?
I t ry to u s e i t .
I
v
unde r s t and from my y o g a f r iend , Mi ke Malo se k , t hat e ven
E i n s t e in u sed on ly s e ven o r e i gh t p e r c e nt o f h i s brain
c apac i ty .
S o t he r e i s muc h mo r e and i t i s j u s t a m a t t e r
o f try ing to d i g deeper , to e xp l o r e , a n d to t r an s l a t e y o u r
o ften uncon s c i ou s ly abso rbed impr e s s i o n s i n t o the med ium in
wh i c h you a r e inte r e s ted .
Loo k a t Verd i , fo r i n s t an c e .
As
a young m an he wr ote mu s i c - - then h e lo s t h i s w i fe an d h i s
two c h i l dren , and for ye a r s he d i dn ' t touch a pen a n d wr i te
anyth ing .
Then sudde n l y , a f t e r m any y e a r s , h e wrote a we a l t h
o f opera , a l l h i s f amo u s one s , s t ar t in g w i th Rigo le t t Q , Aid.a ,
Aga in
S imon Bocc anegr a , La Fo r z a de l De s t i na and s o o n .
there w a s an i n t e r v a l o f y e ar s w i thout produc t i vi ty , and
when he w a s s e venty- two , he wrote
Ot e l lo !
If a young man
in hi s thir t i e s wrote such mu s i c , you wo u l d be s urpr i se d and
shocked , but an o l d man , s e venty - two y e ar s o ld !
( When I
he ard O t e l l o f i r s t , I w a s young enough to th ink o f s e venty­
But that was not a l l .
When he wa s
two a s an o l d man . )
e ighty he wrote F a l s t af f .
I n b e tween he m ay have m ade
sketche s .
I ' m sure he w a s not i d le .
But ide a s come and
we do n ' t know whe r e they c ome from .
I t i s up t o u s to p u r ­
s ue them .
-
RB :
The way that you ' re wo rking now ,
happe n s ?
ON :
It ' s p r etty much what happen s but a l so , when I h ave an ide a ,
i t u s ua l ly o c c up i e s me w i th the c l ay a lone anywh e r e f r om
three o r four d ay s to a we e k o r ten d ay s , an d then i t kee p s
me bu sy w i th f ir in g and g l a z ing and r e f ir ing , r e du c t io n and
r e f ir ing and maybe another r educ t ion and r e f i r i ng .
So f r om
the c o n c ept o r from the s t art o f t he ide a unt i l the f in i shed
wo rk , even i f I wo r k c o n t i nuo u s ly on one p i e c e , i t w i l l take
thr e e mon th s .
And the wonde r fu l thing about c er amic i s - -
i s th i s p r e t ty muc h what
105
wh i c h i s very d i f fe rent f rom any o t he r a r t -- that un t i l
you open the k i ln a f t e r the very l a s t f ir ing you don ' t s e e
what you ' re do ing .
Y o u s e e the- � o rm , sure , there ' s no
que s t ion .
The form do e sn ' t c hange a f te r the b i sque - f ir i ng .
But when I apply the g l a z e i t c an on ly be in my mind how
c l o s e I get to the c o lor and t e xture I dre am o f - - it d e ­
p e n d s o n G o d and my g o o d luc k , a n d t h e l i t t le b i t o f kno w l ­
edge that I have ac q u i r e d t hrough t h e y e ar s o f wor king .
But
y o u do not s e e i t .
When you p ai n t an o i l o r a w at e r c o l o r ,
i t d e ve lop s s low ly wh i l e you p a i n t , and you s e e at e a c h s t ag e
what i s t he r e .
T h e day b e fore i t i s f i n i shed , and the a rt i s t
i s s at i s f ie d , i t i s n e ar l y t h e r e .
And when h e put s t hat l a s t
l i tt l e b lu i s h p ink d o t s ome p la c e whe r e h e f ee l s i t ha s t o be ,
i t i s ne ar ly comp l e t e d ; a n o n l o o ke r wi l l not know the d i f ­
I t ' s ve ry d i f f e r en t
f e r e n c e , whether he l e f t i t out o r not .
I am comp let e ly f in i shed w i t h my wo r k and t hen
with c lay .
i t ' s up to the ki ln and to the f i r e , and o n ly then do I see
what I ' ve do ne .
RB :
When you t h ink o f t he var iou s c r i t i c s whom you h ave met o r
whom y o u have r e ad , o r who have comme n t e d o n your wor k , a r e
there a ny p ar t i c u l a r though t s t hat y o u have abo u t p e op l e
who w r i te abo ut o r t a l k about c lay ?
ON :
Mo s t o f them s e e what they s e e and they r e ac t to i t the w ay
they wou l d r e ac t to anythin g .
I do not argue w i th c r i t ic s ,
bec a u s e that ' s the i r r e ac t ion .
I t ' s a r e ac t ion that i s
u s ua l ly s u b j e c t ive and - - I gue s s - - that i s t he w ay i t
s ho u l d be .
Mo s t o f t h e c r i t i c i sm t h a t I ' ve r e a d about our
wor k h a s be en f avorab l e .
Some t i me s i t w a s r ather m e an ing ­
l e s s , j u s t de s c r ip t ive , w i thout b e ing c r i t i c a l o r e va l u a t i ng .
I t f re quen t ly i s j u s t wor d s to f i l l a p age , e sp e c i a l ly a r t
That ' s one r e ason I do no t
cr i t i c i sm i n c e r t ain m aga z i ne s .
s ub s c r i be to any a r t m aga z i ne .
Eve ry o n c e in a wh i l e when
the r e ' s an intere s t ing art i c l e , s omeone s e n d s me a c o py o f
i t , but I c an ' t get u se d t o the j argon that ' s u s e d by many
c r i t ic s an d peo p l e wr i t ing a bout art .
He wro t e
The one c r i t i c I ado r e d w a s Ar t hur Mi l l i e r .
e xac t ly the w ay h e w a s .
When you looked at h i s wr i t ing , i t
w a s exact ly t h e way he t a lk e d i n o r dinary l i fe .
A t t h e s ame
t ime , he c o u l d be very sharp and ve ry muc h to the po i n t .
Unfo rtun ate ly , a s the yea r s wen t by , h i s c o lumn in the Lo s
Ange l e s Ti�es go t sho r t e r and sho r t e r b e c a u s e adve rt i s in g
u s ed mo re an d mo re s p ac e .
GN :
He had a spec i a l unde r s t and ing b e c a u s e he was an art i s t
h imse l f .
ON :
That ' s e xa c t ly what I wanted to s ay .
p ainter and graphic art i s t .
GN :
Th i s i s an e tch ing o f t he S ant a Yne z R i ve r wh i c h he d i d in
196 3 .
You c an wander into t he c ompo s i t ion .
Arthur w a s a very f ine
106
ON :
S ome o f h i s wat e r co lor s are c ha rmin g , b e a ut i fu l .
He l oved
the C a l i fo r n i a land s c ap e , e s pe c i al ly t he c oun tr y s i d e n e ar
S an Lu i s O b i s p o , b e twe en S o lva n g and S a n Lu i s Obi spo .
That
who l e area wa s c o un t ry h e love d , and one c an f e e l that l o ve
in h i s wo r k .
RB :
Y o u a l so t al k e d b r i e f l y about peop l e who photographed your
w o r k a s we l l as have wr i t ten abo u t i t , and you men t i on t he
man f rom L i fe mag a z ine [ John Loeng a rd ] , and G a i l h a s been
pho t o g r aphing your work in rec ent ye ar s .
ON :
G a i l i s e xc e l l en t i n s e e i n g l ight and l igh t ing o f ob j ec t s .
She r e c o gn i ze s form and empha s i ze s the form by p rope r
l i gh t i ng to produc e three dimen s io n s in a two - d i me n s i o n a l
photo graph .
B e fore then Max Y avno d i d a number o f pho t o ­
graphs f o r u s .
H e d i d a ll t h e photo s f o r t h e Sperry b o o k
and many photographs for t h e S an Franc i sc o c at a l og and t he
Renwic k c a t a l o g .
He ' s an exc e l l ent t e c hn ic i an , but i n the
b e g i nn ing I had to be there to supervi s e and te l l him from
what a n g l e t o photograph ob j e c t s .
The a n g l e i s c r i t i c a l
and o n e h a s t o have a fe e l ing f o r the f o rm .
L at e r on he
did wor k by himse l f , but in t he beg inn i ng he wa s very un ­
Howe ve r ,
s ur e from wh i c h ang l e t o shoot a part i c u l a r p i e c e .
he w a s alway s very me t i c u l o u s i n h i s l i gh t i n g and e xtr eme l y
c r i t i c a l o f h i s own wo r k .
RB :
I t hink that I have c o ve r e d a ll the t op ic s that are i n my
h e a d , b ut i f t h e r e ' s anyt h i n g further t hat you wou l d l i ke
t o s ay for the r e c o r d , I ' d l ik e to t a ke i t w i th me .
ON :
Y e s , I t hink there ' s o n e th ing I wou ld l i ke t o mention an d
that r e l at e s to the t r ea tment o f po t t e ry by mu s e ums .
E spec i al l y t he pottery Gertrud produce d .
I have a de f i n ite
f e e l ing about pot t e ry i n gene ra l , but e sp e c i a l l y he r s .
As
we a l l know , mo s t mu s eums c o n s i de r c e r ami c s a s one o f the i r
s tepc h i l dren ; a s a matt e r o f fac t that goe s fo r t h e who l e
dec o r at i ve a r t s f i e l d .
Having been i n t e r e s ted in mu s ic
( i t w a s my f ir s t intere s t in l i f e , long b e f o r e I ever dr e amt
about c e ramic s ) , I c omp are c e ramic s w i th c hambe r mu s ic .
I t ' s the c hambe r mu s ic o f the ar t s , and i t shou l d be t r e a t e d
a s s uc h .
I n other wor d s , when i t i s pr e s ented i n a mu s e um ,
i t shou l d b e pre s e nt e d in such a w ay that you a r e not awar e
o f the hugene s s o f t h e b u i l d i ng o r t h e room whe r e i t i s
I t ha s to be p r e s e nted in an int imate way , w i th
exh i b i t e d .
great empha s i s on proper l i ghting and p l ac in g .
You s ho u l dn ' t
d i s p l ay ce rami c s in , l et ' s s ay , a huge r a i lro ad s t a t ion
bu i lding l i ke they wanted t o do in I s r ae l .
Th i s c o me s to
mind b e c au s e they wan t e d to show our exh i b i t ion from
Je r u s a l em in Te l Avi v and that wa s the on ly b u i l d in g t h a t
wa s ava i lab l e .
Everything wou l d have b e e n l o s t i n s u c h a
b i g s p ac e .
There w a s no money to make part i t ion s o r d r aw
the c e i l i n g lower s o that the ob j e c t s wo u l d be p r e s e nted i n
t h e proper f r amewo rk .
( I t w a s one o f the f e w in s tanc e s tha t
we re fu s ed an exh ib i t i o n o f f e r e d to u s . )
t
107
Chambe r mu s i c i s inte r e s t ing , not j u s t o n account o f t he
me lodic l ine , the form o f the mu s i c , but a l s o the tone
c o lor and t he det ai l , the d i f f erent sound qua l i ty o f the
i n s t r ument s ; i t i s imme n s e ly mo re impo r t an t t han in a b ig
symphony orche s tr a .
The s ame i s true f o r · c er amic s .
You
have t o r e a l ly g o into them in de t ai l , e s pec i a l l y , I a m
t hink ing o f s ome o f t he p ie c e s t h a t we d i d d u r i n g t he l a s t
ten ye ar s .
You have to ob s e rve the d e t ai l i n the g l a z e ,
and r e a l ly th ink o f t he 1' i n s trument at ion ' ' wh ich , s omehow ,
fo l l ow s the form and enhan c e s the f o rm , and doe s n ' t wo r k
ag a i n s t i t .
When you wi l l loo k l a t e r a t s ome o f the p ie c e s ,
you ' l l s ee that I make gre at u s e o f the t hinne s s o f
Ge r t r u d ' s
p o t s by putt ing mo re g l a z e on t he edge o f a
bow l , t o such e xtent that i t c an ' t s t ay there - - i t h a s t o
r un o f f .
A n d in so doing , e xpo s in g the e d g e s l i ght ly , wh i c h
i s q u i t e un ique to our wo r k .
I r e c a l l j u s t rec e n t ly s ome ­
body a s ke d , " How i s th i s done ? " , gue s s ing that I wou l d say
e xa c t ly t he oppo s ite o f wha t I r e a l ly d i d .
Now in o b s e r ving
t h i s you ' l l a l so o b s e rve the movement o f the g l a z e , b e c a u s e
there was t o o muc h , i t h a d t o run o f f , t here w a s mo veme n t .
Of
And th i s moveme n t i s r e t ained i n the f i n i s h e d p i e c e .
I t m ak e s one p i ece un ­
c o u r s e , that i s o nly p a r t o f i t .
u s u a l and ve ry beaut i fu l i n c on t r a s t to a ve ry s imi l ar
p i ece which doe sn ' t s how the s e e ff e c t s .
RB :
You h ad s a id be fore that you wou l d t e l l me what you me an t
b y " go o d t as te , " a n d maybe you s ho u l d t e l l m e al s o w h a t you
me an by " ve ry b e a ut i fu l . "
ON :
Be auty i s in the eye o f the beho l de r , a s we a l l say .
B e a uty ,
o f c o ur s e , i s a l so in the eye s o f t he c r e ato r .
Now who i s
to dec ide ?
I s ay , a s far a s I ' m c o ncerned , t h i s i s beaut i fu l
It
a n d t h i s i s ugly .
I t doe s n ' t me an t h a t I ' m c o r r ec t .
may b e j u s t the other way around , no que s t ion about i t , I
admi t i t .
Howe ver , I shou l dn ' t s ay we have to acc e p t wha t
the maj o r i ty a c c e pt s , becau s e the maj o r i ty i s n o t e ve n
inte r e s ted in d i s c u s s io n s l i ke t hi s .
B ut i f we l o o k b a c k
w h a t wor k s o f art are c o n s idered g r e a t , in any f ie l d - ­
mu s ic , p aint i ng , sc ulpture - - o ve r the year s , a s fa r a s we
c an look back , are we havin g our t a s te prep ar e d by p e o p l e
who have w r i tten abo ut i t , o r commented on i t be f o r e ?
Is
i t al l an acqu i r e d t as te ?
I don ' t think s o .
I don ' t t h i nk
so bec au s e you are born to s e e and t o he ar , a s long a s we
are expo sed to i t .
I r ec a l l , for in s t anc e , what f a s c i n a t e d
me i n mu s ic when I w a s three , four , o r twe lve t o f i fteen
y e ar s o l d , when my t as te was c e r t ai n l y not deve lo p e d .
In
the me ant ime , i f I look back wha t I heard at that t i me an d
wha t f a sc inated me mo s t , I marve led at my t a s t e at the ag e
o f three when I s at under the p i ano when my s i s t e r p l ay e d
t h e C -Minor F ant a s i a o f Mo z a rt .
( I t wa s import an t t o me
to s i t under the p i ano to get the f u l l s ound ! )
Th i s w a s
o n e o f my very favo r i t e p i e c e s an d I rec a l l t h a t a f t e r
having h e a r d i t innume rab l e t ime s , she h a d t o p l ay i t f o r
me aga in and aga in .
( Ju s t y e s ter day i t w a s on KUSC a n d I
w a s very happy to he ar i t .
I f e l t my t a s te was not b a d at
108
age t h r e e .
I r e c a l l th at at a very e ar l y age , and now l o t s
o f p e op l e a r e go ing t o d i s agree with me a s t o t h e qua l i ty
o f my t as t e , I w a s fa sc inated by Wagner .
I could hear
Wagne r d a y and n ight .
I w as a l so fa sc inated b y Bach whom
I c o u l d he ar day and n ig ht .
I c o u l dn ' t s ay e xa c t l y the
I t ' s d i fferent
same t hing about Bee thoven , o r e ven Mo z art .
today .
How e ve r , t h e r e a r e l o t s o f thing s tha t B e e t hoven
wrote which leave me comp l e t e ly c o l d .
But t h i s is w i th any
a rt i s t , I gue s s .
On t he o t h e r hand , Wa gne r b e g inning with
Tannh a u s er and c o n t i n u i n g to P ar s i faL , there ' s not one ope r a
whic h doe sn ' t fa s c inate me one w ay o r anothe r .
The Ring
cyc l e I c o n s ider o ne o f the g r e a t e s t m a s t e rwo r k s in t he
r e a lm o f art , not j u s t mu s ic , c r e ated by one m an .
It is a
tremendo u s wo r k , and t he mo r e you know i t , the more tre ­
mendo u s i t bec ome s .
RB :
Do you l i s t e n to mu s i c wh i l e you wor k ?
ON :
I love to , ye s .
S ome t ime s a l i t t l e b i t too muc h , b e c a u s e
I have K U S C go ing and the i r programming i s not alway s wha t
I want i t t o be , a n d I don ' t a lway s turn i t o f f .
I love t o
l i s t e n to mu s ic , and there i s no doubt , i t i n f luenc e s m e in
my wor k .
I ha ve one p ar t i c u l a r p i e c e , thank s to KUSC , i t ' s
j u s t a very smal l p i e c e wh i c h I b e gan and f i n i shed i n c l ay
dur ing a P a r s i fa l p e r f o rmance f r om KU SC , and I c a l l i t
" P ar s i f a l . "
( I t ' s a sma l l p ie c e , w e have i t s ome p l a c e .
G a i l c an show i t to yo u . )
RB :
Shou l d we stop and then do a l i t t le touring ,
o r a r e you t ired ?
ON :
No , no .
RB :
I wou l d l i ke to s e e some thing s , and we ' ve done almo s t
twenty - two h a l f hours - - that ' s o ve r e leven and a ha l f
hour s o f t al k ing .
That ' s a lot o f t a l k ing ; tha t ' s marve lou s .
ON :
That ' s good - - we l l , o f cour s e , muc h o f i t w i l l c ome out in
t he was h , hope fu l ly -- but we l e f t out q u i te a n umb e r of
things but t hey ' r e not so i mpo r t ant , r e a l l y .
RB :
Wha t d i d we l e a ve o ut ?
we l e ft out ?
ON :
Oh , some o f the t r i a l s and t r i bu l a t ion s o f the f i r s t y e ar s
S ome o f the t r i al s and t r i bu l at ion s o f the
in Lo s Ange l e s .
f i r s t ye ar s in Vienna whe n we worked in V i enna .
GN :
What about more r e c e n t t ime s ?
ON :
Mo re r e c e n t t ime we ' ve j u s t bare ly touc he d .
O f c o ur s e , one
ha s to g e t d i s t an c e to t a lk about mo r e recent t i me s , b e c a u s e
n o t e ve ry t hing that i s impo r t an t today w i l l b e tomo r r ow ,
e ven tho ugh I th ink s ome o f t he thing s I ' m do ing r ight now
are very imp o r t an t to me .
I don ' t know y e t how I ' l l f e e l
abo ut them f i ve y e ar s from now .
a s you p romi s e d ,
Wha t kinds o f thing s do you th ink
109
RB :
Think ing b ac k ove r t he .pa s t e le ven and a ha l f ho ur s , i s
the r e any b ig f ru s tr ation o r b i g suc ce s s that we ' ve omitte d ,
do you t h ink ?
ON :
We l l , we had a funny exper ience
when w a s i t , in 1 9 4 3 o r
1 94 4 .
We we r e q u i t e succe s s fu l in se l l in g some p ar t i c u l ar
ob j e c t s about wh i c h we d i d n ' t c ar e too muc h , though they
we r e quite c ha rming i n a w ay .
They c ame abo ut in the e a r ly
e xper imen t a l day s in V i enna when I u se d s ome g l a z e s wh i c h
cont ained t o o muc h f lux .
They we r e un s u i t ab l e , and in
u s i ng t hem they r e al ly run o f f the ve s se l comp lete ly .
On
the i n s ide they c o u l dn ' t r un very far , but c o l l ec t e d a s a
I con s i d e r e d i t a
l a ke .
And s ome p e o p le found i t n i ce .
mi s t ake .
Howe ve r , when we c ame here , I h a d s aved o ne o r
two o f the s e p i ec e s a n d I s aw t h e r e a c t ion o f some p e o p l e
who s aw them .
For the fun o f i t I c o n c o c t e d a who l e s e r ie s
o f p i e c e s w i th the s e g l a z e s , o n l y I inc r e a s e d t he amount o f
t he runo f f s o they had a r e a l ly t h i c k , de ep l ake o f t r an s ­
lucent and c r ac k l e d g l a z e i n the bo t tom o f e a c h ve s se l .
Obviou s ly , i t imp r e s s e d dep artme n t s to r e buye r s , bec au s e I
rec a l l that s eve r a l o f them ordered tho s e p i e c e s by t he
do z e n .
Among o t he r peop l e who l i ked them very much wa s , t o
One day Hat f ie ld and
m y great surpr i s e , D a l z e l l Hat f ie ld .
I both , independent ly , r e c e ived an ident i c a l not i c e from
I t s a id we we r e i n fr ing ing on a p a t e n t
someone in the E a s t .
o f a g l a z e , g i ving a p atent numbe r , and that un l e s s we c e a s e
mak ing the s e o b j e c t s which Hat f ie ld , among o t h e r s , d i s t r i ­
buted , lega l a c t ion w i l l b e b rought aga i n s t u s .
And H at f ie ld
s a id , " We l l , that ' s s urpr i s i ng .
I d idn ' t know g l a z e s c an b e
patente d .
Y o u have s o many thing s which a r e s o muc h mor e
inte r e s t ing , muc h mo r e be aut i ful . "
H e d i d n o t f e e l inc l ined
to getting into a l aw suit o ve r a g l a z e .
A l s o , by t h a t t i me ,
I h ad got ten t ir e d o f i t be c a u s e we had made l i t e r a l l y
I m i ght j u s t
hun dr e d s o f p i e c e s in t h a t p ar t i c u la r g l a z e .
a s we l l t ake that o c c a s ion t o s top u s ing i t .
The fo l l owing y e a r we we re in New Y o r k and , among a l o t o f
other peop l e , we al so got in touch w i th that p a r t i c u l a r
He w a s no other than
per son who h a d p atented t h a t g l a z e .
Way lande Gr e g o ry , a very good c e ram i c s c u l p t o r and a love ly
m an .
H i s wi fe wa s Hungar i an , and we had no doub t that the
patent w a s her i de a .
Gr e g o ry was we l l known , he had e x­
h ib i ted i n t he c e ram i c e xh i b i t i o n in Syr a c u s e , and we l i ke d
him .
And we to ld h im t hat t h a t p a r t i c u l a r g l a z e w a s the
re sul t of my lack of knowledge a l l the way ba c k in Vi e nn a .
Howe ve r , h i s lawyer d idn ' t think s o .
To prove h i s c as e , he
had the poor man buy e xamp le s o f eve rybody ' s wor k who i n ­
fringed upon h i s p atent , and so i t happe n e d that in o u r c a s e
he w a s c omp l e t e l y out o f l u c k b e c au s e the e x amp l e h e bo ught
was so ld by Rena Ro se ntha l in New Yor k , who bought i t from
u s abo ut a y e a r and a ha l f b e fore Gregory app l ied for h i s
paten t .
RB :
How marve lou s !
1 10
ON :
We n e ve r h e a r d f r om h im aga in .
N o r f r om h i s attorne y .
RB :
Ren a Ro s en t h a l , d i d you know h e r we l l ?
ON :
No , I me t her on ly o n c e .
We c o r r e spo nded .
She w a s one o f
I f o r g o t who
tho s e peop le who l i ked our wo r k very muc h .
introduc e d it to her .
She o r de red i t , and then it w a s l ike
At t ha t t ime we
pul l i ng t e e t h to get her to pay for i t .
n e e d ed it d e s p e r a t e ly , and some t i me s we had to w a i t s i x
month s , s e ven mo nths , and e ve n longe r , for p ayme n t .
I s pe n t
I don ' t know h o w muc h t ime wr i t in g her l et t e r s , and I h a t e
wr i t ing l e t t e r s o f t h a t k i nd .
B u t t h a t g l a z e p at e n t e p i s o d e
I thought w a s very funny .
GN :
The r e ' s a s tory I think i s very touch ing wh ich P eggy Le c ky ,
o ur n e i ghbo r who i s a bookb inder , to ld me .
I t h i n k you we r e
wo rking w i th t h e R e d Cro s s dur i ng t h e war and he l p i n g ve t e r an s
return into s o c i e ty .
She s a id there w a s a one - arme d , b l ind
G e r t r ud p r ac ­
ve t e r an who wanted to learn t o t hrow po t s .
t ic e d throwing a t home w i t h h e r r i ght hand beh ind h e r b a c k
wh i l e we ar ing a b l in d fo ld , s o that she wou l d know how i t
wo u l d fee l to him .
S h e w a s ab l e to t e ac h h im t o throw .
That ' s q u i t e beaut i fu l .
ON :
You know , that " one -handed s tory " I heard be fo re but c annot
rec a l l .
I know that she t r i e d t o throw b l indfo l d e d , and
then she a l so demon s t r ated throwing b l indfo lded .
Be c au s e
mak ing c e ramic s i s a ve ry t ac t i l e art .
I t ' s a t a c t i l e ar t
in mak ing the ob j e c t , an d i t shoul d be a tac t i l e en j oyme n t ,
appr e c i at ing the f in i shed wo r k .
RB :
That b r ing s u s to the end o f the intervi ew , much to my regre t .
ON :
Tha t b r i n g s u s to the end .
Tho ugh not r e a l ly .
L i fe go e s on
and I am s t i l l very muc h invo lve d with my wo r k , though i t
h a s unde r gone a c o n s i d e r ab le met amo rpho s i s .
Too b a d t he tape ran out , we ha rd ly touched upon the p r e s en t !
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