IT`S NOT SWISS . . . - WatchGeeks

Transcription

5 Years, 352 Days, 12 Hours, 54 Minutes, 50 Seconds Since Forums came online
.
You last visited:
Private Messages:
WatchGeeks > Television Watch Shows > ShopHQ General Topics
IT'S NOT SWISS . . .
Forum
User CP
Forum Rules
FAQ
Community
Calendar
New Posts
Search
Private Messages:
Quick Links
Log Out
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Rate Thread
Display Modes
09-29-2008, 02:14 AM
#1
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,940
CurrentTime
True WatchGeek
The movement is NOT SWISS!!!!!
The name of the movement is "Technica Swiss Ebauche".
It's not from Switzerland!
3 Lastest Threads by CurrentTime
Thread
Forum
Last Poster
Replies Views
Last Post
LOOK WHAT I GOT!
krayziehustler
43
315
06-01-2010
09:10 PM
Invicta Lupah Bijoux . . . Geeked by Arnie...
LOOK WHAT I GOT!
Arnie11
44
389
05-12-2010
01:03 AM
Doc Hollidey
Sales/Trade Feedback Forum
Doc Hollidey
1
27
05-07-2010
06:09 PM
Hamilton Khaki Aviation Chrono Auto
w/Valjoux 7753
09-29-2008, 02:17 AM
#2
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: EL PASO
Posts: 1,583
vegafox
Super Geek
Re: IT'S NOT SWISS . . .
no way i thought it was swiss
this is a first for me....i could swear i heard jim, eyal and shawn say its a swiss movement?????
unless im a dork
__________________
CLICK HERE www.salvadorswatchcorner.com CLICK HERE
09-29-2008, 02:19 AM
#3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Tempe, suburb of Phoenix
Posts: 20,384
wave3214
True WatchGeek
I believe the technica swiss ebauche movement is made in house by Invicta using swiss made parts, I may be
wrong but I think that is how Eyal described it awhile back on another model
__________________
09-29-2008, 02:19 AM
#4
meijin
Managing Director/Admin
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Eden Prairie, MN
Posts: 16,022
Real Name: Michael
LOL! Not even close!
That is one of the reasons why if it isn't Jim or Shawn, I don't watch. It is just too frustrating.
__________________
Michael
Argument is meant to reveal the truth, not to create it. ~ Edward de Bono
Invicta...in hoc nomen vinces!
09-29-2008, 02:21 AM
#5
meijin
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,022
Real Name: Michael
The Technica movements are made in the orient. The company was bought by Invicta. There are not Siwss
Movements.
__________________
Michael
09-29-2008, 02:24 AM
#6
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Tempe, suburb of Phoenix
Posts: 20,384
wave3214
True WatchGeek
Now we know, thanks Michael. Makes me wonder why the de.scription on the shopsite and the show host are
selling up the swiss angle on a chinese Invicta
__________________
09-29-2008, 02:24 AM
#7
merichar
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northwest Oregon
Posts: 2,880
Real Name: Mark
Master WatchGeek
This just in-most Swiss cheese in U.S. is derived from American cows-film at eleven. These movements are asian
as Jim and Eyal have stated many times.
09-29-2008, 02:28 AM
#8
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: OHIO
Posts: 14,434
GeorgeTheWatchGuy
Moderator
True WatchGeek
Quote:
Originally Posted by meijin";p=&quot
The Technica movements are made in the orient. The company was bought by Invicta. There are not
Siwss Movements.
That is the correct answer Michael... You are the winner...
That is the way Jim had explained it!
__________________
"There are Two Types of Pain in this World: The Temporary Pain of Discipline, or the Permanent Pain of Regret"...
GTWG
09-29-2008, 02:28 AM
#9
meijin
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,022
Real Name: Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by wave3214";p=&quot
Now we know, thanks Michael. Makes me wonder why the de.scription on the shopsite and the show host
are selling up the swiss angle on a chinese Invicta
The SNBC website (for this item) says:
Technica Swiss Ebauche 3600K mechanical
That is exactly what i is...the company is called Technica Swiss Ebauche and the model is 3600K [mechanical].
They are not calling it Swiss or Swiss Made movement.
__________________
Michael
09-29-2008, 02:31 AM
CurrentTime
True WatchGeek
#10
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,940
I bring up the issues for 2 reasons.
I'm not necessarily criticizing the movement, however it is NOT Swiss made. Therefore, I'm just pointing out that
a correction needs to be made.
Secondly, people may be buying this watch expecting a Swiss movement based on the presenter continuing to
refer to the watch as "Swiss". Not everyone who buys this watch has the same level of knowledge as we do on
Watchgeeks.net
I can't speak for the movement quality. I don't own one.
BTW: I believe the movement is assembled in Korea. Not certain about this.
09-29-2008, 02:32 AM
#11
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: EL PASO
Posts: 1,583
vegafox
Super Geek
haha opps
he said that rotor had lume
its ok hes still learning
__________________
09-29-2008, 02:39 AM
#12
meijin
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,022
Real Name: Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurrentTime";p=&quot
I bring up the issues for 2 reasons.
I'm not necessarily criticizing the movement, however it is NOT Swiss made. Therefore, I'm just pointing out
that a correction needs to be made.
Secondly, people may be buying this watch expecting a Swiss movement based on the presenter continuing to
refer to the watch as "Swiss". Not everyone who buys this watch has the same level of knowledge as we do on
Watchgeeks.net
I can't speak for the movement quality. I don't own one.
BTW: I believe the movement is assembled in Korea. Not certain about this.
I personally put the blame for the confusion on the host!
Daniel Green sells enough watches that he should know better than to call something "Swiss Made" when his notes do
not indicate it as such. And, he should know how to identify a watch as being Swiss Made.
This whole topic concerning Technica came up a while back when this watch was done as an OTV:
Jim and Eyal addressed it on air as being Asian in origin and not Swiss.
__________________
Michael
09-29-2008, 02:44 AM
CurrentTime
True WatchGeek
#13
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,940
I recall Jim and Eyal talking about the movement. I believe that's probably why it triggered my reaction to Daniel.
Part of me is sitting here just chuckling my butt off! I/we know better about the movement.
It just bugs me that he (the presenter) should know better.
09-29-2008, 02:48 AM
#14
Flyback
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 24,856
Real Name: Brad
True WatchGeek
This information IS NOT verified, so please don't take it as being gospel.
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wik...Swiss_Ebauches
Technica Swiss Ebauches
From Chinese Watch Industry Wiki
The US owned Invicta Watch Company have long used mechanical movements from well-known sources such as
ETA and Miyota. Recently they have expeanded their range to include watches with mechanical movements
described as "Technica Swiss Ebauches". When questioned, Invicta have stated that Technica Swiss Ebauches is
not a company, but simply a brand registered to Invicta. There has been speculation that Invicta were running a
movement-finishing facility in Switzerland, but they have been found to have no holdings in that country. Later
there were claims that the Technica movements were sourced from Japan, although they did not match the
appearance of any known Japanese calibres.
When questioned specifically about the Technica 1902, which looks identical to the Sea-Gull ST1902, Eyal Lalo
owner of Invicta admitted that it was in fact assembled from Sea-Gull parts, with Sea-Gull technical assistance, at
an Invicta-owned facility in Korea.
The name Technica Swiss Ebauches has caused confusion with some consumers who assume that it implies a
certain amount of Swiss content in the movement, however it is important to note that Invicta watches marked
as having Technica Swiss Ebauches movements are never labelled either "Swiss Made" or "Swiss Movement".
Some known Chinese calibres rebadged as Technica Swiss Ebauches
Sea-Gull ST19
Sea-Gull ST36
Standard skeleton
Hangzhou 2189 & 2198
__________________
If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!
09-29-2008, 02:48 AM
#15
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: EL PASO
Posts: 1,583
vegafox
Super Geek
i dont think that he is at the level to really know swiss made, swiss movement and so on.....he still needs to
practice and do research....you cant blame him....i (again me) see him more as a jewelry guy than a watch
guy....practice makes perfect....
heck i always thought that those movements were swiss for reals....not made in Switzerland but swiss
movement....im a
still to i guess
but i dont know....i think he needs research and practice
__________________
09-29-2008, 02:49 AM
#16
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 29
Watch Geek
Member Geek
Well.. Thank you for the explanation everyone. I just cancelled my orders. Not because I don't like the watch or
think any less of the quality. It's because I feel the host misrepresented it. I could swear he said it had a Swiss
movement. I feel like I was taken advantage of because I'm not as knowledgable as many of you out there.
Thank you all again for the informatin, though.
__________________
Automatic Lover
09-29-2008, 02:53 AM
#17
meijin
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,022
Real Name: Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegafox";p=&quot
i dont think that he is at the level to really know swiss made, swiss movement and so on.....he still needs
to practice and do research....you cant blame him....i (again me) see him more as a jewelry guy than a
watch guy....practice makes perfect....
heck i always thought that those movements were swiss for reals....not made in Switzerland but swiss
movement....im a
still to i guess
but i dont know....i think he needs research and practice
Daniel Green has been selling watches on SNBC for at least 3 years....as far as I am concerned, that is plenty
enough time for him to practice and do research. Plus, Jim has stated on a couple of occasions that he has done
"training classes" for the other hosts...I would be hugely surprised if Jim did not cover what "Swiss Made" was
and how it differs from other classifications of watches.
He just need to get it right....IMO obviously.
__________________
Michael
09-29-2008, 02:53 AM
CurrentTime
True WatchGeek
#18
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,940
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyBack";p=&quot
This information IS NOT verified, so please don't take it as being gospel.
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wik...Swiss_Ebauches
Technica Swiss Ebauches
From Chinese Watch Industry Wiki
The US owned Invicta Watch Company have long used mechanical movements from well-known sources
such as ETA and Miyota. Recently they have expeanded their range to include watches with mechanical
movements described as "Technica Swiss Ebauches". When questioned, Invicta have stated that Technica
Swiss Ebauches is not a company, but simply a brand registered to Invicta. There has been speculation
that Invicta were running a movement-finishing facility in Switzerland, but they have been found to have
no holdings in that country. Later there were claims that the Technica movements were sourced from
Japan, although they did not match the appearance of any known Japanese calibres.
When questioned specifically about the Technica 1902, which looks identical to the Sea-Gull ST1902, Eyal
Lalo owner of Invicta admitted that it was in fact assembled from Sea-Gull parts, with Sea-Gull technical
assistance, at an Invicta-owned facility in Korea.
The name Technica Swiss Ebauches has caused confusion with some consumers who assume that it
implies a certain amount of Swiss content in the movement, however it is important to note that Invicta
watches marked as having Technica Swiss Ebauches movements are never labelled either "Swiss Made"
or "Swiss Movement".
Some known Chinese calibres rebadged as Technica Swiss Ebauches
Sea-Gull ST19
Sea-Gull ST36
Standard skeleton
Hangzhou 2189 & 2198
I have read this. I believe that this is the initial education that I had on the movement, then it was kinda verified
by Jim and/or Eyal.
Again . . . the movement may be of good/great quality . . . just that it's NOT Swiss.
09-29-2008, 02:56 AM
#19
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,395
alwaystenpastten
Master WatchGeek
1. Yes, the host should be familiar enough with the product to know not to say it is a Swiss movement. But...
2. Invicta going with the name "Technica Swiss Ebauche" is, in my mind, equivalent to a bar advertising "Free
Beer Tonight" and then having a band named "Free Beer" play, and charging patrons for their beer. OK, Invicta
may not be breaking the highly specialized "Swiss Made" rules, but the name is misleading to a great majority of
people (apparantly even to Mr. Green.)
Edited by author for spelling.
09-29-2008, 03:01 AM
#20
meijin
True WatchGeek
Quote:
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,022
Real Name: Michael
2. Invicta going with the name "Technica Swiss Ebauche" is, in my mind, equivalent to a bar advertising
"Free Beer Tonight" and then having a band named "Free Beer" play, and charging patrons for their beer.
OK, Invicta may not be breaking the highly specialized "Swiss Made" rules, but the name is misleading to
a great majority of people (aparantly even to Mr. Greene.)
I have to disagree with you there somewhat...even if it the watch was made from a "Swiss ebauche", that does
not make the watch "Swiss" or "Swiss Made". No more than Swiss Legend is "Swiss Made". Daniel ought to be
able to accurately represent what he is selling on the air.
And even though that was the name of the company they bought, they really out to change it....even if they just
called it TSE...it is just asking for problems and trouble they don't need.
__________________
Michael
09-29-2008, 03:02 AM
#21
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 29
Watch Geek
Member Geek
I just want to add that I'm greatful to have WatchGeeks to come to for knowledge and support. I would have
been very upset if I found out a few months from now that the watches were not what I thought they were.
I don't think much gets by you guys.
__________________
Automatic Lover
09-29-2008, 03:04 AM
CurrentTime
True WatchGeek
#22
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,940
Quote:
Originally Posted by alwaystenpastten";p=&quot
1. Yes, the host should be familiar enough with the product to know not to say it is a Swiss movement.
But...
2. Invicta going with the name "Technica Swiss Ebauche" is, in my mind, equivalent to a bar advertising
"Free Beer Tonight" and then having a band named "Free Beer" play, and charging patrons for their beer.
OK, Invicta may not be breaking the highly specialized "Swiss Made" rules, but the name is misleading to
a great majority of people (apparantly even to Mr. Green.)
Edited by author for spelling.
The whole "Technica Swiss Ebauche" name is a set-up for this type of confusion! Add to the situation a host who
sees "Swiss" and is assuming that the movement (or entire watch) is "Swiss Made in Switzerland".
09-29-2008, 03:05 AM
#23
meijin
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,022
Real Name: Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watch Geek";p=&quot
I just want to add that I'm greatful to have WatchGeeks to come to for knowledge and support. I would
have been very upset if I found out a few months from now that the watches were not what I thought
they were.
In all fairness to the watch being offered as the OTV. Technica makes a really good skeleton (non-chronograph)
movement. If you like that watch, it is a good price. I was not trying to insinuate that the watch itself was not up
to snuff...I own a could of the Technica skeleton movements.
__________________
Michael
09-29-2008, 03:12 AM
#24
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sin City...Vegas!
Posts: 3,312
Real Name: Gaetano
G.Curcio
Master WatchGeek
Quote:
In my experience, nothing gets by this group of geeks.
If one does not know another does, and there are more that
know than don't know. This place is like a library for watches
with first hand experience to back it up. I call this place "Home".
09-29-2008, 03:38 AM
#25
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 29
Watch Geek
Member Geek
Thank you meijin.
Just to clarify on my part. I did not cancel my order because of anything you or anybody else said about the
watch. I'm sure it is a very good quality. Invicta has a huge following and an excellent reputation from what I can
tell. Maybe I should not have canceled my order. I just felt like it was misrepresented by the host. I purchase
based on my highly positive experiences with SNBC and I take what is said by their hosts as faith because of my
lack of knowledge. Perhaps this is naive, but I really trust SNBC, especially Mr. Wilsie and Mr. Skelton. When I
asked what "Technica" meant I was hoping I would find out it was like Daniel Mink and Renato not wanting to put
"Swiss Made" on the watch until it is actually 100 percent Swiss. BTW Renato is my favorite brand out there.
I'm sure this host, I apologize for forgetting his name, is an honest person, as well. I just don't think he should be
put on the air until he has a little more training. Perhaps he could be put on with Mr. Wilsie or Mr. Skelton until he
gets a little more experience under his belt?
__________________
Automatic Lover
09-29-2008, 04:01 AM
Z-FREAK
True WatchGeek
#26
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,969
I have to agree that the terminology is deceptive, ESPECIALLY to "non-geeks..."
09-29-2008, 04:25 AM
ChronoMATT
Super Geek
#27
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,561
Umm, Michael, you forgot one little detail. The main headline / product name given to the watch throughout the
site is: "Invicta Men's Vintage Style Swiss Mechanical Leather Strap Watch - J175796".
How else would you interpret this name?
I knew something smelled like 5 day old broccoli when I read it. Despite not liking DG's style one bit, I can cut
him a break if he thought it was a Swiss Made, or at the least, a Swiss Movt watch.
Quote:
Quote:
Now we know, thanks Michael. Makes me wonder why the de.scription on the shopsite and the
show host are selling up the swiss angle on a chinese Invicta
That is exactly what i is...the company is called Technica Swiss Ebauche and the model is 3600K
[mechanical]. They are not calling it Swiss or Swiss Made movement.
09-29-2008, 04:28 AM
#28
meijin
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,022
Real Name: Michael
Quote:
Umm, Michael, you forgot one little detail. The main headline / product name given to the watch
throughout the site is: "Invicta Men's Vintage Style Swiss Mechanical Leather Strap Watch - J175796".
No, I did not forget anything. I don't watch Daniel Green any more, so I did not see the presentation of the
watch. I was watching "The Unit" and "Mad Men" instead.
__________________
Michael
09-29-2008, 04:34 AM
#29
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 815
Minute Hand
Veteran Geek
Quote:
I'm sure this host, I apologize for forgetting his name, is an honest person, as well. I just don't think he
should be put on the air until he has a little more training. Perhaps he could be put on with Mr. Wilsie or
Mr. Skelton until he gets a little more experience under his belt?
Nah....that would just expose the gaping holes in the knowledge even further.
__________________
She walked out and I turned around and picked up the phone..... -- Pete from Illinois -- Feb 9, 2009
09-29-2008, 04:46 AM
#30
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,561
ChronoMATT
Super Geek
I was not referring to the show, but your direct quote citing the watch's specs from the SNBC web site. I was
noting the product name used for the watch, plainly misleading it is a Swiss Watch. I thought you may have
missed it, since you went to the trouble of pulling them from the site.
Anyway, you are a wiser man than me. There were 30 better things I could have been doing other than watching
DG.
Quote:
Quote:
Umm, Michael, you forgot one little detail. The main headline / product name given to the watch
throughout the site is: "Invicta Men's Vintage Style Swiss Mechanical Leather Strap Watch J175796".
No, I did not forget anything. I don't watch Daniel Green any more, so I did not see the presentation of
the watch. I was watching "The Unit" and "Mad Men" instead.
09-29-2008, 04:49 AM
#31
meijin
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,022
Real Name: Michael
Ah! Sorry, I misunderstood you! When I went to the website, I just went right to the movement listing and kind
of ignored everything else. Well, it's not like we haven't seen them screw up on the website before, eh?
Thanks for pointing that out!
__________________
Michael
09-29-2008, 05:02 AM
#32
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 335
Real Name: Barry
mempho1
Senior Geek
well the same show it would have been nice to know the exact movement in the SAIII as well, if your not a fellow
geek , your thinking why is this watch so high? Even the website does not tell , just says swiss 21 jewel auto....
09-29-2008, 10:33 AM
#33
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island New York
Posts: 28,611
BigJoe
True WatchGeek
I thinkit is a bad practice to call something Swiss when in fact it is not.And Michael I was watching the Unit as
well first rate if you ask me and I also dont what Daniel green for the reason,s stated above.
__________________
Big Joe likes watches and good friends.
Take care and be safe. [ Big Joe ]
09-29-2008, 12:02 PM
#34
Skip
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 2,503
Real Name: Skip
Master WatchGeek
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-FREAK";p=&quot
I have to agree that the terminology is deceptive, ESPECIALLY to "non-geeks..."
I was trying to think of a good way to express my feelings of this "Title". Even though I DO own a couple watches
with this movement, and have had very good luck with them, and I love the skeleton, I agree with Alan that the
title is misleading to the uninformed public who may be buying this watch, either for themselves or just watching
to buy a gift for someone else.
__________________
Proud Member #25
09-29-2008, 12:43 PM
lordvader311
Super Geek
#35
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DeathStar/Hoth
Posts: 1,593
Real Name: S.J.
I am all for dropping the 'Swiss' moniker out of the name and just calling it Techinca Ebauche and would love to
see all manufacturers label the country of origin in regards to the movement. I have this movement in that OTV
Michael pictured earlier. Take the bloody Swiss out and do the right thing.
__________________
Phillies 80/08 WFS Champs/ 49ers 5x Super Bowl Champs
09-29-2008, 01:16 PM
#36
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: West Palm Beach, Floriduh
Posts: 2,226
Real Name: Matt
Male_Hor
Super Geek
The name IS misleading, but that doesn't excuse DG's ignornace.
As for the actual construction quality? I can't really criticize the movement itself since I haven't actually worked
with one in person.
I own one watch with a Chinese movement. An Android Predator with a Caliber 2911 mechanical with 18 jewels.
Since the watch has no hour or minute markers, I consider it basically ornamental in nature. I've worn it only
three or four times and I've never tried to determine it's accuracy.
__________________
09-29-2008, 02:14 PM
#37
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: RANCHO MIRAGE CA
Posts: 1,438
forehire
Super Geek
All I ask Is what kind of car do you drive, what is the make of your TV. Many of the best watchs made in the
world are not Swiss. Swiss watchs are not all that great anyway. "Swiss is just a buzz word" The mechanical
skeleton is a great watch, a swiss watch like it would coat $1,000.00 more. And you know you wouln't buy it at
that price.
09-29-2008, 02:34 PM
#38
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 7,932
Real Name: Sean
SeanCM
True WatchGeek
These shows are so PAINFUL to watch!! So many mistakes!!
Some of these people have been with ShopNBC for a long time and
should know the product by now!!
Absolutely embarrassing to watch, and they're paying these people!!
What a shame!! Kimberly Wells needs serious help, please help her!!
Get one of us on the air who actually knows the product and really loves watches.
Sorry I just have to vent, I'm sure she's a peach of a gal, but clueless with the product she
has been presenting for YEARS!!!!
__________________
09-29-2008, 02:40 PM
#39
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,260
Real Name: Tony
scamp
True WatchGeek
The name is misleading.
__________________
09-29-2008, 02:57 PM
Z-FREAK
True WatchGeek
#40
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,969
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCM";p=&quot
These shows are so PAINFUL to watch!! So many mistakes!!
Some of these people have been with ShopNBC for a long time and
should know the product by now!!
Absolutely embarrassing to watch, and they're paying these people!!
What a shame!! Kimberly Wells needs serious help, please help her!!
Get one of us on the air who actually knows the product and really loves watches.
Sorry I just have to vent, I'm sure she's a peach of a gal, but clueless with the product she
has been presenting for YEARS!!!!
Totally agree Sean!
Call me arrogant but I would LOVE their gig and KNOW I could do it better!
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Forum
User CP
Forum Rules
FAQ
Community
Calendar
New Posts
You last visited:
Private Messages:
Search
Private Messages:
Quick Links
Log Out
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Rate Thread
09-29-2008, 03:13 PM
Watch Guido
True WatchGeek
Display Modes
#41
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,676
I have seen this in sales many times when I was in the IT industry. Although a bit different, the
sales types were good-looking people who knew how to sell and entertain clients - that is it. It was
up to the poor Techs assigned to the sales force (who made literally 25% of what the sales force
made) headache to get it to work. Here it is a bit different but it would help to have someone from
the company present or on the phone.
09-29-2008, 03:14 PM
Z-FREAK
True WatchGeek
#42
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,969
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watch Guido";p=&quot
I have seen this in sales many times when I was in the IT industry. Although a bit different,
the sales types were good-looking people who knew how to sell and entertain clients - that
is it. It was up to the poor Techs assigned to the sales force (who made literally 25% of
what the sales force made) headache to get it to work. Hear it is a bit different but it would
help to have someone from the company present or on the phone.
I used to sell T1's for a living so I TOTALLY agree with what you are saying Guido!
09-29-2008, 03:25 PM
#43
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 815
Minute Hand
Veteran Geek
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-FREAK";p=&quot
Call me arrogant but I would LOVE their gig and KNOW I could do it better!
I used to be in broadcasting years ago.... since I'm retired, I'll just commute in from SEA to MSP on
Northwest. SNBC can have me for:
1)
2)
3)
4)
Plane fare
Hotel for a shower and change on arrival (if they don't have it at the studio)
Meal money
Employee discount on product
Heck, I'd might even do it for just 1 and 2 (though 4 could prove to be the expensive part for them
- and me!). Plus, NW is doing a double miles promo between SEA and MSP, so hop on it, new SNBC
CEO!!!
__________________
She walked out and I turned around and picked up the phone..... -- Pete from Illinois -- Feb 9,
2009
09-29-2008, 03:57 PM
#44
Joe Tex
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 4,360
Master WatchGeek
I just had a $139 dollar education(I bought the blue). I guess it's a small price to pay for personal
enrichment, and I'm sure it won't be my last. This misinformation just re-enforces my commitment
to read the insightful comments from you geeks, and of course ask a lot of questions. I have a lot
to learn about collecting timepieces; but i am looking from the right view.
Thanks from a novice.
09-29-2008, 03:57 PM
#45
timeman
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 12,003
Real Name: Jerry
I wonder how many people bought this watch after being told it was a Swiss movement when in
fact it was made in Asia / orient? Another example of a host not doing his homework prior to a
show.
__________________
09-29-2008, 04:07 PM
ChronoMATT
Super Geek
#46
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,561
With all due respect, you have missed the point of the thread.
It's all about truth in representation. Nobody cares if a movement is made in the orient as long as
it is represented as such. Many of us have orient movement watches, including myself.
What is not acceptable is naming an orient movement watch "Invicta Men's Vintage Style Swiss
Mechanical Leather Strap Watch".
That's the original point here...and I'll pass on your "Swiss is just a buzz word" comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forehire";p=&quot
All I ask Is what kind of car do you drive, what is the make of your TV. Many of the best
watchs made in the world are not Swiss. Swiss watchs are not all that great anyway. "Swiss
is just a buzz word" The mechanical skeleton is a great watch, a swiss watch like it would
coat $1,000.00 more. And you know you wouln't buy it at that price.
09-29-2008, 05:34 PM
#47
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: St Martin Mississippi
Posts: 82
vegaswatch
Member Geek
The name is correct. Unfinished movements are called "Ebauche" wether it comes from ETA, SW or
any other manufacturer. ETA sends out their movments this way to all watch companies and that
company does final assembly. That is why they can include swiss in the name. It is a swiss parts
movement not assembled by the Swiss. I watched the show and yes he should know the difference.
09-29-2008, 05:43 PM
#48
Flyback
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 24,856
Real Name: Brad
True WatchGeek
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegaswatch";p=&quot
The name is correct. Unfinished movements are called "Ebauche" wether it comes from
ETA, SW or any other manufacturer. ETA sends out their movments this way to all watch
companies and that company does final assembly. That is why they can include swiss in the
name. It is a swiss parts movement not assembled by the Swiss. I watched the show and
yes he should know the difference.
I doubt that the parts are Swiss origin.
__________________
If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!
09-29-2008, 06:11 PM
#49
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: On the Puget Sound, WA
Posts: 13,648
Real Name: Charlie
CharlieB
True WatchGeek
IMO the name of the movement and the name of the watch are both blatant misrepresentation
pure and simple. Reasons (excuses) can be given by Invicta for it, but I believe it is a word
association game designed to fool people.
Have you ever seen Invicta give a Swiss movement a name with Chinese in it? Have you ever seen
a Swiss made Invicta watch with Chinese in the name? No, and you never will. Gee, I wonder why?
Bad. Beneath Invicta.
__________________
09-29-2008, 06:32 PM
bdgrewe74
Master WatchGeek
#50
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Conyers,GA
Posts: 3,081
Real Name: Brian
Now you know why you can pick up this watch so dang cheap... cheap labor in China.. but from
what I am seeing.. the costs are going to increase from China.. I am already seeing it in my
industry..we have alot of our plastics made there.. and tooling, piece costs.. etc are going up...
09-29-2008, 06:52 PM
#51
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern California
Posts: 987
Real Name: Neil
buyingtime
Veteran Geek
Let's get real. Does anyone expect that they can purchase a brand new Swiss made mechanical
chronograph movement or watch with said movement for $140? Ain't no way, Jose! This name
game that Invicta has been playing is not new and it's not going away anytime soon. Don't believe
everything you see or hear; especially from Daniel Green about watches. Caveat emptor.
__________________
Valgranges...Coming soon to a watch near you.
09-29-2008, 07:07 PM
#52
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,395
alwaystenpastten
Master WatchGeek
Technica Swiss Ebauche... so, a fair interpretation of that name would be, Technica Swiss
Movement? Why would Invicta, or SNBC, want that built-in potential for deception, errr...,
misunderstanding? By the way, I own an Invicta 9839, which I THINK has the same movement, if
not, a similar one. It's always run great for me, so I'm not per se knocking the movement. I am
only knocking the name of it.
09-30-2008, 01:47 AM
#53
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 300
holeout
Senior Geek
Now Wilsie is calling it Swiss. He was calling the movement on the J175008 Swiss when they first
showed it then when he showed it again, he was careful not to say it again. Somebody must have
said something.
They either need to change the name or never allow Jim to be on vacation when they are on the
show.
__________________
Shawn
09-30-2008, 03:24 AM
#54
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: RANCHO MIRAGE CA
Posts: 1,438
forehire
Super Geek
Makes no difference. SOLD OUT If you did not get one you won't. So it dosen't matter what you
think. Beleive it or not Shop NBC sells to "coutch patatos" who don' know watchs from oranges. All
these people know is "only $23.00 a month" They buy watchs by the 1000's.
09-30-2008, 03:26 AM
#55
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,648
Real Name: Charlie
CharlieB
True WatchGeek
Quote:
Makes no difference. SOLD OUT If you did not get one you won't. So it dosen't matter what
you think. Beleive it or not Shop NBC sells to "coutch patatos" who don' know watchs from
oranges. All these people know is "only $23.00 a month" They buy watchs by the 1000's.
You're painting people with kind of a broad brush.
Unless it's a limited edition they can always make more.
__________________
09-30-2008, 09:18 AM
timeman
True WatchGeek
#56
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,003
Real Name: Jerry
Don't recall one host stating the movement was made in Asia / China. This can be a little deceptive
when they keep saying a Technica Swiss Ebauche movement.
__________________
09-30-2008, 03:40 PM
koimaster
Super Geek
#57
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,976
Quote:
Quote:
Now we know, thanks Michael. Makes me wonder why the de.scription on the
shopsite and the show host are selling up the swiss angle on a chinese Invicta
That is exactly what i is...the company is called Technica Swiss Ebauche and the model is
3600K [mechanical]. They are not calling it Swiss or Swiss Made movement.
09-30-2008, 03:53 PM
#58
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,884
NAYTH
Master WatchGeek
Quote:
Makes no difference. SOLD OUT If you did not get one you won't. So it dosen't matter what
you think. Beleive it or not Shop NBC sells to "coutch patatos" who don' know watchs from
oranges. All these people know is "only $23.00 a month" They buy watchs by the 1000's.
Well done forehire!
You managed to insult most of the community here at Watchgeeks.net with a totally irrelevant
Post, and do so with grammar, syntax and spelling that would embarrass a learning disabled 4-year
old.
Welcome aboard!
Nayth
__________________
09-30-2008, 04:05 PM
#59
HondaLover
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Posts: 3,174
Real Name: John
Master WatchGeek
How about we name it TENSE movement? TEnicha Not Swiss Ebauche?
09-30-2008, 04:30 PM
#60
timeman
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,003
Real Name: Jerry
Just say the movement is not Swiss made or it's made in China. Problem solved.
__________________
09-30-2008, 09:01 PM
#61
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 866
Professorb
Veteran Geek
To attempt to put a fine point on this please let me make a few comments:
1. There is such a thing as truth in advertising and in some cases it is not being practiced
2. The issue of whether the "thing: is Swiss or not is relevant only because it is a big differentiation
to those of us who really know watches and know that the Swiss name is a general quality. Hense
it is a reason to buy.
3. I am in the AV industry and work in broadcast and presentation industries every day. To have a
person on air that is not qualified is inexcusable. If Jim showed jewelry he would come up to speed
and make himself an expert. For proof look at Sean.
4. I cast my vote for Z to be on air. Any seconds?
ProfessorB
__________________
09-30-2008, 09:38 PM
#62
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,648
Real Name: Charlie
CharlieB
True WatchGeek
__________________
10-01-2008, 01:43 AM
qwikfix
Veteran Geek
#63
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 713
Real Name: John
A few words about the host. Yes he should have known better. But I'm sure I'm not the only one
who witnessed Shawn hack his way through a watch presentation the other night. He didn't have
clue what the subdials did and I almost choked on my beer when he said that the dials on the
watch were too small to be read(that was a major selling point for me). It just goes to show that
everyone is human and can sometimes screw up.
10-01-2008, 02:56 AM
#64
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,940
CurrentTime
True WatchGeek
It's interesting to read about the different directions that this thread carried different people.
I can recall listening to Daniel and having one of those "moments of truth". I knew this particular
movement was not Swiss and could confidently state so here on watchgeeks.net. To listent to him
continually refer to Swiss and Switzerland was just appauling.
I wondered how many folks would be returning their watches, once they found out that it wasn't
Swiss like it was promoted on TV. I also thought about the many people who wouldn't even care,
but just loved the watch. In any event, I just wish that he would have been informed and promoted
the watch (and it's movement) as had Jim and Eyal on previous occasions.
Invicta is a very good watch company! I will continue to buy their watches. ShopNBC is a great
place to learn about watches and get some very good deals. I will continue to buy watches from
them. Neither of them appeared to be misleading (IMHO). However, we had a clashing of forces
when an ill-informed host promoted a watch that contained a movement produced with a name
that could be confusing.
The watches looked nice . . . the movement is probably very reliable and everything seemed to be
a great deal.
My point was only that "IT'S NOT SWISS"!
10-01-2008, 03:36 AM
#65
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,648
Real Name: Charlie
CharlieB
True WatchGeek
And my point is: then don't use the word...potential for confusion gone.
__________________
10-01-2008, 03:45 AM
#66
superhoro
Super Geek
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Staten Island,NY
Posts: 1,895
Real Name: Hakim
Draft Avi from jtv and daniel green is a world class chef
10-01-2008, 04:48 AM
#67
watchcollector1968
Super Geek
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 1,231
I do think they should make every effort to be clear and accurate on the de.scriptions of the
watches they sell. I do however understand (I think I do anyways) why they may not always be
perfectly accurate.
I suspect when doing watch shows and have so many to keep track of, especially when doing
multiple brands over a few hours that the host has to go by whats on the cards. That does not
make it right for a potential customer to be misinformed, just saying I understand.
I still dont think the error takes anything away from Shawn, I like when he does the shows and will
continue to look forward to him being on the air. Between Shawn and Jim, they make the shows
worth watching.
10-01-2008, 05:37 AM
#68
merichar
Master WatchGeek
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northwest Oregon
Posts: 2,880
Real Name: Mark
I did'nt see the show-would'nt watch if that host was giving watches away. The de.scription on
SNBC website is Technica Swiss Ebauche mechanical, this is probably exactly what is written on the
cue cards. Outside of Jim or Shawn, I have'nt seen any of the hosts demonstrate to me that they
are even remotely interested in the watches they are selling. Therefore, I would'nt expect anyone
outside of Jim or Shawn to know anything about the movement beyond whats on the card. This is
also one of the reasons why I don't watch unless Jim or Shawn is on. If SNBC is going to trot out
these other hosts to sell watches, they should make the watch de.scriptions/specs more accurate.
10-01-2008, 10:58 AM
#69
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 277
Craig M
Senior Geek
I have an Invicta with a one of these movements and it works really well and I enjoy it and it gets
loads of positive comments...I didn't buy it because it had "Swiss" in the movement name, I
bought it because of the watch. The moment I got it I knew it was Asian Made...and I'm perfectly
fine with that, I have several Asian Made watches.
As far as the shady marketing tactics of Invicta with this movement it needs to stop. We have
gotten to the point where Asain made movements are more reliable, and most people don't care.
It's a blatant misleading statement to even put "Swiss" in the name knowing all well that it's about
as Swiss as I am [which is not at all BTW]. Flat out the name of the movement should be
changed...if only for those who seek out Swiss Made/Moevment pieces are fooled into thinking it
has any Swiss heritage at all
BTW I am selling my old car it's a Dodge Ferrari-Ebauche Neon...all offers considered.
10-01-2008, 11:09 AM
timeman
True WatchGeek
#70
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,003
Real Name: Jerry
IMO next to electronics (computers & TVs) watches are the second most technical and complicated
item being sold on ShopNBC. All electronic shows have a tech expert on air in addition to the
ShopNBC host. Some ShopNBC hosts have very little knowledge on watches. When these hosts (in
this case Daniel Green) are running solo misinformation and lack of information (specs) will occur.
__________________
10-01-2008, 11:20 AM
#71
NG111
True WatchGeek
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 6,730
Real Name: Nate
"Let the buyer beware" applies everywhere and in every situation. Personally, I feel a lot more
comfortable having information in print than having it from someone verbally. In case of future
discrepancy (which has good potential over an issues like Swiss v. Asian movements), it will not
help much to cite the reference of "someone said this on the show." It would be much easier and
better during moments like these to be able to point to something in print or in a written listing (in
this case). Just my 2 cents.
10-01-2008, 11:30 AM
timeman
True WatchGeek
#72
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,003
Real Name: Jerry
Quote:
Originally Posted by NG111";p=&quot
It would be much easier and better during moments like these to be able to point to
something in print or in a written listing
I agree. People buying online can see photos and read the specs on a watch. People watching
solely on TV can only go by what the host is saying. If the information is wrong will adversely affect
the buyer in making an educated decision regarding buying the watch or not.
__________________
10-01-2008, 11:43 AM
#73
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,544
Watch Noob
Master WatchGeek
Quote:
Originally Posted by timeman";p=&quot
Quote:
Originally Posted by NG111";p=&quot
It would be much easier and better during moments like these to be able to point
to something in print or in a written listing
I agree. People buying online can see photos and read the specs on a watch. People
watching solely on TV can only go by what the host is saying. If the information is wrong
will adversely affect the buyer in making an educated decision regarding buying the watch
or not.
Good points. I'm still new at the game but even from my first watch purchase here, I've always
gone online to check things out for myself and compare rather then taking someone's word for it.
Who knows, cards can be printed with incorrect info and some Hosts will just spew it out.
10-01-2008, 01:18 PM
#74
pjgu7000
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Orleans Area
Posts: 1,040
Real Name: Paul
Super Geek
In talking about host I've not heard the name Kimberly Wells stated. I think that Kimberly also
brings allot of knowledge to the watch shows.
We all make mistakes and Daniel Green has , why we don't know. Now saying that, I don't care for
the shows when Daniel host. At one time or another all involved in the watch shows may have
given misinformation but not purposely IMO, they/we are human. Removing the word "Swiss" from
the movements name surly would help in the future.
__________________
"The Gadgetman's" Hurricane Katrina Watch, The Invicta Speedway COSC LE, It Took A
Lickin But Kept On Tickin
10-01-2008, 01:26 PM
#75
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,991
Sir Charles
Super Geek
http://www.crotonwatch.com/watch_glossary.aspx
Ebauche – A term used by Swiss watch manufacturers to denote the unassembled raw movements
without jewels, escapement, plating, engraving. The manufacturers supply their ebauches to trade
name importers in the U.S.A and other countries who have them finished, jewel
Unfortunately, the explanation is cut off on the website, but you get the idea. There are a number
of definitions of Ebauche on the web; all of which call it pretty much the same thing. So, it is an
accurate term!
__________________
If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker. -- Albert Einstein
URWERK UR-202 • Seiko Monster
10-01-2008, 01:59 PM
#76
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 815
Minute Hand
Veteran Geek
FWIW -- Shawn saying "I don't know" has the virtue of being an honest comment. How many times
have you just wished someone told you "I don't know" rather than blowing smoke at you?? I for
one ALWAYS want that....when I travel, I want the agent to give me truth, and if that happens to
be "I don't know", then I can accept that. Better than "The flight will board in five minutes" when
there isn't even a plane at the gate.
As for Invicta having the "Swiss" as part of the company name for the movements -- I think that's
a gray area that Eyal should take a good hard look at. It's playing a bit fast & loose with that
respected word, and is a long-term negative for the integrity of the brand with higher-end
consumers.
Back to Shawn and Daniel: I respect "I don't know". I can't respect winging it without knowledge,
for whatever reason. Just say it's a pretty watch and will look good on your wrist if you have
nothing else to contribute. At least it's the truth.
If DG is a world-class chef, have him do shows on cookware. He likely would have knowledge on
copper vs aluminum vs clad vs.....
My offer to do the shows still stands.....I'll even promise to wear a bag over my head (to avoid
scaring viewers) and come as the "Unknown Watchgeek" (with a hat-tip to Murray Langston, the
original "Unknown Comic")
__________________
She walked out and I turned around and picked up the phone..... -- Pete from Illinois -- Feb 9,
2009
10-06-2008, 12:39 AM
jdman
Senior Geek
#77
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pa
Posts: 251
__________________
__________________________
Scott
Ours is a world governed by the excessive use of force.
10-06-2008, 02:23 AM
peteyny
Member Geek
#78
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 55
I agree that Daniel Green should know better than to call something Swiss made if it isn't or to
have a Swiss Mov't when it doesn't, but in his defense the name of the watch given by either
Invicta or ShopNBC says it is Swiss - it is as if they are trying to deceive the viewers and even their
own hosts into saying the wrong thing.
The biggest fault here I think lies with Invicta - they are blatantly trying to confuse people by
calling an Asian made movement a Technica Swiss Ebauche. There is simply no reason to have the
name Swiss in there unless they are purposely trying to fool people. I love Invicta watches and
have many, and I don't mind buying watches with Chinese or other Asian movements in them, but
just be up-front about it. This is really not an above board move by Invicta.
__________________
Pete
10-10-2008, 02:09 AM
#79
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 32
fast200
Member Geek
Ugh, I have to bring this thread back to life. Please look at the de.scription of J175796 on
Shopnbc.com .
This is disgusting. HEY INVICTA - DROP SWISS FROM THE MOVT NAME! HEY SHOPNBC - THE
WATCH AINT SWISS!
10-10-2008, 01:19 PM
#80
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,884
NAYTH
Master WatchGeek
Invicta Men's Vintage Style Swiss Mechanical Leather Strap Watch - J175796
I have to agree with the points made on this Thread. As much as I am a BIG fan of Invicta and
"Shop", the item de.scription above is definitely misleading; it goes beyond the name of the
movement and infers Swiss-made.
What I do not understand is why Invicta would even name the movement as they have. So much
capital and time has been invested in Eyal's high-end lines, not to mention the Reserve collections,
to promote the company's ability to produce true Swiss-Made quality using S-200s, Valjoux and
Unitas "engines". It makes no sense to me to even appear to mislead. Besides, the Miyota
movements and even some of the better Asian movements are already well accepted and
credentialed in the industry, both for quality and value.
Nayth
__________________
Forum
User CP
Forum Rules
FAQ
Community
Calendar
New Posts
You last visited:
Private Messages:
Search
Private Messages:
Quick Links
Log Out
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
10-10-2008, 06:43 PM
Rate Thread
Display Modes
#81
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: southern Calif
Posts: 12,817
Red Ryder
True WatchGeek
WITH NO DISREPECT TO ANYONE:
THAT BRAND DESCRIPTION IS EXTREMELY MISLEADING.
THANKS TO ALL OUT ALERT GEEKS WHO POINTED IT OUT.
BY THE WAY, I HAVE A BRIDGE I WANT TO SELL.........
10-10-2008, 06:56 PM
#82
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,395
alwaystenpastten
Master WatchGeek
Well don't forget about J175901 and all its variations of case color and strap color/material.
"Vintage Style Skeletonized Swiss Mechanical Leather Strap Watch" with a Technica Swiss Ebauche.
An awesome and reliable watch that I would highly recommend to anyone - but - don't buy it
because you think you are getting a Swiss watch.
__________________
Black Mother of Pearl. It just never gets old.
10-10-2008, 07:11 PM
#83
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,648
Real Name: Charlie
CharlieB
True WatchGeek
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAYTH";p=&quot
Invicta Men's Vintage Style Swiss Mechanical Leather Strap Watch - J175796
I have to agree with the points made on this Thread. As much as I am a BIG fan of Invicta
and "Shop", the item de.scription above is definitely misleading; it goes beyond the name
of the movement and infers Swiss-made.
What I do not understand is why Invicta would even name the movement as they have. So
much capital and time has been invested in Eyal's high-end lines, not to mention the
Reserve collections, to promote the company's ability to produce true Swiss-Made quality
using S-200s, Valjoux and Unitas "engines". It makes no sense to me to even appear to
mislead. Besides, the Miyota movements and even some of the better Asian movements
are already well accepted and credentialed in the industry, both for quality and value.
Nayth
An incredibly fair and balanced post Nayth.
What you said and that you said it makes speaks volumes about this place..
__________________
10-11-2008, 10:44 PM
#84
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vero Beach Florida
Posts: 218
Real Name: William Jones
William
Senior Geek
Maybe SNBC should add the country of origin to their de.scription of the watches or in the specs
where it tells you the type of movement.
Daniel could just print out the info from the web page to keep his facts straight.
__________________
We don't stop playing because we grow old; We grow old because we stop playing.- George
Bernard Shaw
Regards
Bill
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Tags
Edit Tags
None
Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Quote message in reply?
« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Posting Rules
You
You
You
You
may
may
may
may
post new threads
post replies
not post attachments
edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Rules
Forum Jump
All times are GMT -3. The time now is 01:33 PM.

IT`S NOT SWISS . . . - WatchGeeks

Transcription

Similar documents

mod a

www.swisseducation.com

Aircraft maintenance training

April 2013 - San Diego County Swiss Club

Tell Tale Nov 2015 - Swiss Club Toronto

11_Woods_Why Revisit le Pavillon Suisse

SWISS COUPON PASS

american spirit - Keith Strandberg

Fall 2012 - San Diego County Swiss Club

Presentation