That`s interesting, and accurate. Gamers count on collectors

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Collectors Society Message Boards: Manufactured Gold
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Davenport
Talkative?
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re:
THE_BEYONDER]
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#1410047 - 09/24/06 11:27 AM
Quote:
Reged: 07/22/05
Posts: 577
Your point about the meaning of ' grade ' is a good one.
Looking at the glossary in my copy of OS (#35), I found the definition of 'condition' to be
interesting:
CONDITION - The state of preservation of a comic book, often inaccurately used
interchangeably with Grade
That's interesting, and accurate. Gamers count on collectors confusing the two.
I'd love to see a new definition included in OS:
COINED- A reconditioning process applied to mimic an unusual high state of
preservation. The process may include dry cleaning, re-pressing or re-trimming. While
re-trimming is widely condemed and will get a "restored" label if detected by
pro-grading services, dry cleaning and re-pressing has been deemed undetectable.
"Coined" (reconditioned) is associated with "The Crackout Game" introduced to the
"slabbed" comic market by coin collectors (coinees) as a means to manipulate printed
label grades, thus increasing market value, on professionally graded and encapsulated
collectibles. See Label Chasers.
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Davenport]
#1410061 - 09/24/06 11:42 AM
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Since the beginning, there has been a direct correlation between value & condition. The
state of preservation of a book is what caused collectors to pay premiums for the finest
examples they could find.
In today's market....grade is dictating value.
This 'shift' has created illusionary values, and the continued manipulation of structure
will (IMO) cause prices to come crashing down in the not-so-distant future.
Post Extras:
1 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
The world looks mighty
good to me, cuz signatures
are all I see...
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
Loc: an alternate reality,
just out...
october
TOTAL NEWBIE
Flaming_Telepath]
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#1410139 - 09/24/06 12:43 PM
Quote:
Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 11529
Loc: Straight outta Locash
Quote:
I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters
who continue to harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things
you rant and rave about have affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple
question. I will repeat it for you.
What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that
go on in the hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical
stance prevents you from doing?
I know precisely what you're trying to say...that unless you're willing to back it
up, to physically do something, you shouldn't complain or point out
wrong-doing...that you have no right.
So unless you actually go down to your local gas station and berate the owner,
you've no right to complain about gas prices?
However, I'm going to humour you, as I'm one of those who 'continue to harp on
things'.
This is what I've personally done, how I've changed my habits.
1 I will no longer submit anything to CGC, nor will I advise anyone else to do so,
nor will I help them do so.
2 I will buy raw books in preference to slabbed wherever it's viable. Online is not
an option, but at shows? Sure. I was at the one-day New York show in January
and bought 29 books. None of them was in plastic, but in hand, I'll rely upon my
own judgement.
3 I will no longer consider 9.6 or above books, as these, I feel, as the ones that
are most likely to have 'reached their full potential'. Oh, and the market volatility
that will occur when this sh!te finally filters down to the community in general is
quite scary.
2 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
4 I have a list of dealers who I will not buy from, no matter what they have and
how badly I 'need' it. Names on the list included ComicLink/Josh, Heritage,
Steve Lauterbach, Matt Nelson, Doug Schmell, SNE and a number of others.
Now, is this putting a cramp in my style? Sure. But it's better than getting out
entirely. Does it take out all risks? Course not...but it sure as hell diminishes
them. Will it help change things? No...not on my own, but if others want to make
their own personal decisions as to how they want to change, dependent upon
how strongly they feel, and they do so, who knows?
But I tell you what it does do...it makes it easier to sleep at night knowing that
you're not putting money directly into the hands of scumbags just because I so
badly need that funny book.
Your post was in reply to me, but I didn't say those things.
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
witchuntinphotoshopedness
october]
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#1410211 - 09/24/06 01:10 PM
We know. At least I think we know.
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
-------------------"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your
philosophy." - (Hamlet, I.v)
Post Extras:
Flaming_Telepath
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: october]
#1410279 - 09/24/06 02:12 PM
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Andy, apologies if it looked misleading. I simply clicked 'reply' to the post I was looking
at at the time.
-------------------WANTED!!!
Northland Pedigree - VF/NM or better, raw with certificates. Slabbed copies
considered, dependent upon price.
Also, in CGC 9.2 or better, off-white pages or better, with perfect spine registration, the
following Avengers are needed:- 17, 21, 23, 25, 26, 28, 82, 90, 91, 94, 95, 101, 103,
105, 107, 108, 112, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120
PM me with details.
Post Extras:
3 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
If you have a dream about
out-posting me, you better
wake up and apologize.
Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 2924
Loc: Hertfordshire, U.K.
bullet123
The Collectinator
Flaming_Telepath]
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#1410616 - 09/24/06 07:42 PM
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
Quote:
I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters
who continue to harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things
you rant and rave about have affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple
question. I will repeat it for you.
What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that
go on in the hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical
stance prevents you from doing?
I know precisely what you're trying to say...that unless you're willing to back it
up, to physically do something, you shouldn't complain or point out
wrong-doing...that you have no right.
So unless you actually go down to your local gas station and berate the owner,
you've no right to complain about gas prices?
However, I'm going to humour you, as I'm one of those who 'continue to harp on
things'.
This is what I've personally done, how I've changed my habits.
1 I will no longer submit anything to CGC, nor will I advise anyone else to do so,
nor will I help them do so.
2 I will buy raw books in preference to slabbed wherever it's viable. Online is not
an option, but at shows? Sure. I was at the one-day New York show in January
and bought 29 books. None of them was in plastic, but in hand, I'll rely upon my
own judgement.
3 I will no longer consider 9.6 or above books, as these, I feel, as the ones that
are most likely to have 'reached their full potential'. Oh, and the market volatility
that will occur when this sh!te finally filters down to the community in general is
quite scary.
4 I have a list of dealers who I will not buy from, no matter what they have and
4 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
how badly I 'need' it. Names on the list included ComicLink/Josh, Heritage,
Steve Lauterbach, Matt Nelson, Doug Schmell, SNE and a number of others.
Now, is this putting a cramp in my style? Sure. But it's better than getting out
entirely. Does it take out all risks? Course not...but it sure as hell diminishes
them. Will it help change things? No...not on my own, but if others want to make
their own personal decisions as to how they want to change, dependent upon
how strongly they feel, and they do so, who knows?
But I tell you what it does do...it makes it easier to sleep at night knowing that
you're not putting money directly into the hands of scumbags just because I so
badly need that funny book.
Thanks for answering a direct question (even if it wasn't directed at you) The point I am
trying to make is that I take a different approach to the conspiracy theory. I assume
that all books have reached their full potential when I purchase them, so there is no
dissapointment on my part. I like the fact that Heritage gives you a wonderful archive of
full sized scans to refer to, ( I wish dealers would do the same) I do not believe that
everyone in the hobby is out to get me. I do not deal with certain dealers because I
have had bad experiences but I do not go on the boards and borderline slander people
without a shred of proof. Just because Heritage has a book that has been
"potentialized" does not mean Heritage is the owner. Heritage is an auction sight which
relys on consignments to hold their auctions. If you do not know who the consignor is,
(and it might be Heritage ) I think it is just a black eye on the hobby to simply spout
things as your version of the truth without a single shred of evidence.
-------------------"Better to remain silent and thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
bullet123]
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#1410731 - 09/24/06 08:49 PM
Quote:
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
I do not believe that everyone in the hobby is out to get me. I do not deal with certain dealers
because I have had bad experiences but I do not go on the boards and borderline slander
people without a shred of proof. Just because Heritage has a book that has been
"potentialized" does not mean Heritage is the owner. Heritage is an auction sight which relys
on consignments to hold their auctions. If you do not know who the consignor is, (and it might
be Heritage ) I think it is just a black eye on the hobby to simply spout things as your version
of the truth without a single shred of evidence.
I don't believe everyone in the hobby is out to get me either. That's your hyperbole, not
mine.
I also have a list of dealers I don't deal with and the only reason I don't promote it widely
is because I want people to make up their own minds who or who they don't want to
5 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
deal with.
I do honestly think there is monkey business going on at Heritage, and I also believe
that my saying so will have little or no effect on their business.
Anything else I can do for you?
Post Extras:
FUELMAN
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Red Hook]
#1410734 - 09/24/06 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
I do not believe that everyone in the hobby is out to get me. I do not deal with certain
dealers because I have had bad experiences but I do not go on the boards and
borderline slander people without a shred of proof. Just because Heritage has a book
that has been "potentialized" does not mean Heritage is the owner. Heritage is an
auction sight which relys on consignments to hold their auctions. If you do not know
who the consignor is, (and it might be Heritage ) I think it is just a black eye on the
hobby to simply spout things as your version of the truth without a single shred of
evidence.
I don't believe everyone in the hobby is out to get me either. That's your
hyperbole, not mine.
I also have a list of dealers I don't deal with and the only reason I don't promote it
widely is because I want people to make up their own minds who or who they
don't want to deal with.
I do honestly think there is monkey business going on at Heritage, and I also
believe that my saying so will have little or no effect on their business.
Anything else I can do for you?
-------------------The International Institute of Conservation (IIC) has defined restoration as "any
attempt to return an object to its original form and purpose, in the attempt to
recreate an earlier known state or condition".- Tracey Heft, Restoration Expert.
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6 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
TOTAL NEWBIE
Reged: 05/11/04
Posts: 8086
Loc: San Diego Zoo
tth2
TOTAL NEWBIE
Reged: 12/04/03
Posts: 10536
Loc: Hong Kong
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: bullet123]
#1410752 - 09/24/06 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Just because Heritage has a book that has been "potentialized" does not mean Heritage is
the owner. Heritage is an auction sight which relys on consignments to hold their auctions. If
you do not know who the consignor is, (and it might be Heritage ) I think it is just a black eye
on the hobby to simply spout things as your version of the truth without a single shred of
evidence.
Post Extras:
joe_collector
Ok ok. JC Superstar. But
only because he martyred
his ID.
Reged: 08/21/02
Posts: 17813
#1410764 - 09/24/06 09:08 PM
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Gold
When the lights go down
In the Florida town
Collectors are in for the evening
I fire up the press
Check out the spine stress
My heart beatin' time with the breathing
Crack out a VF
Press down a corner fold
'Cause people out there turnin' comics into gold
My buddy Jimmy Fey
Sellin' comics on EBay
He never liked being a sinner
But in his spare room,
Where it's quiet as a tomb
He presses comic books after dinner
Crack out a VF
Press down a corner fold
7 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
-------------------Man, am I glad I don't buy Moderns anymore.
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: tth2]
#1410795 - 09/24/06 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
Just because Heritage has a book that has been "potentialized" does not mean
Heritage is the owner. Heritage is an auction sight which relys on consignments to
hold their auctions. If you do not know who the consignor is, (and it might be Heritage
) I think it is just a black eye on the hobby to simply spout things as your version of
the truth without a single shred of evidence.
Post Extras:
tth2
TOTAL NEWBIE
Reged: 12/04/03
Posts: 10536
Loc: Hong Kong
8 of 52
#1410858 - 09/24/06 10:17 PM
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Whatever, Brad. It's just too bad that if someone doesn't want to join the "in crowd" and
be "cool" by criticizing everything indiscriminately, they're immediately labeled as either
9/26/06 8:18 PM
a pollyana or made fun of by stupid photos such as the one you just posted. Gee, it
feels just like grade school all over again, where no kid in his right mind would ever
publicly say anything positive about school (even if it were true) because he would
forever be labeled as a dork.
If you could provide even the most basic facts like how many issues on average in
each Heritage auction are consigned vs. owned by Heritage, or even what Heritage
does to influence consignors towards "improving" their books, then I might give more
credence to your indiscriminate criticism.
On the other hand, I CAN relate my own personal experience with Heritage, including
for the books I've consigned to them for November. I consigned a bunch of raw books
that I recently procured and asked Heritage to submit them to CGC for slabbing. At no
point did anyone at Heritage suggest I run the books by Heritage's "experts" to see if
any of the books could have their potential maximized. I can assure you that if Heritage
sent the books off themselves to be maximized without my consent (which I don't think
they ever would), and I were to find out, there would be hell to pay.
I also consigned a bunch of slabbed books (previously and for this November), and at
no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I either resub to CGC or have any of their
potential maximized and then be resubbed. I know of another collector who in a
previous auction consigned his slabbed books, and Heritage DID suggest he resub
some of them to CGC to see if some of them might get a higher grade. At no point was
it suggested, however, that any of them be maximized before being resubbed to CGC.
It was just a shotgun submission to see if any of the books might benefit from CGC's
alleged arbitrary grading. For the record, and I can verify this because I knew the
pre-existing grades of the books that he authorized to be resubbed, of the 10-15 books
that were resubbed, exactly ONE came back with a higher grade (9.4 became a 9.6).
So much for Heritage's undue influence over CGC or CGC's totally arbitrary grading.
Post Extras:
batman_fan
Carpal Tunnel
#1410879 - 09/24/06 10:32 PM
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Reged: 01/01/04
Posts: 1079
Loc: CA
Whatever, Brad. It's just too bad that if someone doesn't want to join the "in crowd" and be
"cool" by criticizing everything indiscriminately, they're immediately labeled as either a
pollyana or made fun of by stupid photos such as the one you just posted. Gee, it feels just
like grade school all over again, where no kid in his right mind would ever publicly say
anything positive about school (even if it were true) because he would forever be labeled as a
dork.
If you could provide even the most basic facts like how many issues on average in each
Heritage auction are consigned vs. owned by Heritage, or even what Heritage does to
influence consignors towards "improving" their books, then I might give more credence to your
indiscriminate criticism.
On the other hand, I CAN relate my own personal experience with Heritage, including for the
books I've consigned to them for November. I consigned a bunch of raw books that I recently
procured and asked Heritage to submit them to CGC for slabbing. At no point did anyone at
Heritage suggest I run the books by Heritage's "experts" to see if any of the books could
have their potential maximized. I can assure you that if Heritage sent the books off
themselves to be maximized without my consent (which I don't think they ever would), and I
were to find out, there would be hell to pay.
I also consigned a bunch of slabbed books (previously and for this November), and at no
9 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
point did anyone at Heritage suggest I either resub to CGC or have any of their potential
maximized and then be resubbed. I know of another collector who in a previous auction
consigned his slabbed books, and Heritage DID suggest he resub some of them to CGC to
see if some of them might get a higher grade. At no point was it suggested, however, that
any of them be maximized before being resubbed to CGC. It was just a shotgun submission
to see if any of the books might benefit from CGC's alleged arbitrary grading. For the record,
and I can verify this because I knew the pre-existing grades of the books that he authorized
to be resubbed, of the 10-15 books that were resubbed, exactly ONE came back with a
higher grade (9.4 became a 9.6). So much for Heritage's undue influence over CGC or CGC's
totally arbitrary grading.
But you must acknowledge some of the recent sells of Heritage of "enhanced books"
through a secondary company definitely looks odd and warrents further watching.
Also, who do you think is resubbing all these books? Someone that really understands
CGCs grading well enough to take a chance on getting a purple label. I don't know if
something funny is going on, but I am definitely standing back and watching.
-------------------Who can sleep Alfred when there is so much work to do?
http://stores.ebay.com/bigbatmanfans-books
Post Extras:
Flaming_Telepath
#1411114 - 09/25/06 04:07 AM
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At no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I run the books by Heritage's "experts" to see if
any of the books could have their potential maximized.....
Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 2924
....I also consigned a bunch of slabbed books (previously and for this November), and at no
point did anyone at Heritage suggest I either resub to CGC or have any of their potential
maximized and then be resubbed.
Tim, that's not how it works and I suspect you know it, too.
Books are consigned to Heritage. Heritage have the opportunity to view the books and
gauge just how much of their 'potential' has been maximised. Heritage then shill bid
their own auctions to secure the book, have the work done, and then relist in their new,
improved condition.
Why would they suggest you get the work done yourself and only realise an 18% profit
on the upgrade when they could benefit 100% from the work undertaken once they
own it?
-------------------WANTED!!!
10 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
105, 107, 108, 112, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120
PM me with details.
Post Extras:
tth2
TOTAL NEWBIE
Flaming_Telepath]
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#1411122 - 09/25/06 06:36 AM
Reged: 12/04/03
Posts: 10536
Loc: Hong Kong
Quote:
Quote:
At no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I run the books by Heritage's "experts" to
see if any of the books could have their potential maximized.....
....I also consigned a bunch of slabbed books (previously and for this November), and
at no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I either resub to CGC or have any of their
potential maximized and then be resubbed.
Tim, that's not how it works and I suspect you know it, too.
Books are consigned to Heritage. Heritage have the opportunity to view the
books and gauge just how much of their 'potential' has been maximised.
Heritage then shill bid their own auctions to secure the book, have the work
done, and then relist in their new, improved condition.
Why would they suggest you get the work done yourself and only realise an
18% profit on the upgrade when they could benefit 100% from the work
undertaken once they own it?
Nick, in fact, I'd wondered the same thing and had asked around. My sources indicate
that in fact Heritage does NOT like to take this kind of inventory risk, because it
involves paying the hammer price (granted they don't have to pay the BP and they're
further subsidized by getting the seller's commission), paying pressing and resub fees,
and then taking the risk that CGC won't give the book a higher grade. I know everyone
here believes that pressing a book is a 100% guarantee for getting a higher grade, but
it's just not so.
Think about it, if Heritage were into taking the inventory risk because it was a sure fire
winner, wouldn't they be pressing the D books like crazy, and probably a lot of the
McLaughlin Church books?
Honestly, I think a lot of the crack out, press and resub has been done by (i)
consignors themselves who are trying to boost their previously purchased book before
they sell the book on Heritage (and I have no doubt Heritage is willing to facilitate this
when asked) and (ii) sharp-eyed dealers who are good at spotting books with
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9/26/06 8:18 PM
"potential". Hell, Matt Nelson could be 90% of (ii), and perhaps many here don't
consider him to be a third party but effectively the same as Heritage.
Relying only upon facts that I have confirmed, I know that the 9.2 JLA #1 and 9.2 JLA
#7 that I sold on Heritage a few years ago were purchased at record prices, not by
Heritage but by Josh Nathanson (who also apparently purchased the 9.2 Flash #105 in
the same auction). I have not been able to verify if any work was done to the JLAs (the
Flash #105 was definitely cleaned), but I know they all subsequently received 9.4s on
resub, and the 9.4 JLA #7 was resold on Heritage for a modest profit, while the 9.4 JLA
#1 and 9.4 Flash #105 were sold to JP for approximately $100K (who then
subsequently resold them on Heritage as part of his fire sale for approx $70K in total).
Let's be clear, I am not denying in any way that a lot of funny business is going on. The
facts are abundantly clear on that point. But, I think the fingers have been pointed at the
wrong party in a lot of this, which is all I'm trying to say. It's one reason why Brad's
stupid picture irritated me so much. Finally, if Heritage are the ones doing the
scamming (i.e., taking the inventory risk I refer to above), why in the world would they
provide us with such a fine image archive which has been the source for identifying
90+% of the monkey business going on here? If they took down the images after the
conclusion of each auction (like EVERYONE else in the business), I think a lot of this
would have flown completely under the radar. If Heritage are crooks, they are
extremely stupid crooks, and I don't think they are stupid.
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
#1411143 - 09/25/06 08:03 AM
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Tim, the fact is that you have an oil tanker full of money invested in graded books,
you're going to be selling a chunk of them through Heritage and you are in complete
denial over the fact that the game's afoot. Or worse, you know things are not right, but
you don't want to see Heritage being questioned right before they start showing your
books.
Who are your "sources" that all is well? Most likely an industry insider. Probably
someone from....Heritage....right?
Amazing that you could have been on these boards, have read about the kind of
practices going on, and still completely block out all the possibilities from your
consciousness that it's a big game. It's quite an amazing ability. My pictures are simply
ways of expressing exactly what your position represents in my opinion. You love my
pictures...except when they hit one of your own nerves.
If I recall correcty, you said you're about to consign a load of your highgrade
Flash's to Heritage's November Signature Auction, so I can totally understand
your attempt to spin the situation to your advantage. I can understand your admitted
self-interest on this topic. Go right ahead. But don't expect the rest of us to act as if it's
Groundhog Day or that it's September 25, 2003!
Relax Tim, you'll do fine on your books, but don't be surprised if all the 9.4's reappear in
six or twelve months, as 9.6s....on Heritage. You think these guys are amateurs? Do
whatever you want with your books, but please please PLEASE don't feed us your
pablum. Have a little respect. Jeez.
Where the hell have you been the last two years, my friend?
12 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Did Filter81's accusations not raise at least some concern? He has sources too.
Everyone has sources. I spoke with Adam......his material is worth at least serious
consideration.
The quotes below came from one of the most important threads to appear on the
boards this year....
Are these the same book?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't want to speculate carelessly, but Filter might be on to something here.
If I'm a seller who has used Heritage in the past, I'd be pissed to see one of
my items listed with this Lewis Wayne Gallery.
Who knows if they actually paid that hefty 20% buyer's premium on their
purchases? Its not a fair market price if you got a 20% discount built in.
In my opinion, this is what separates Heritage from the other
clean/press/resubmitters out there.
I don't want to speculate carelessly either, so I'm just going to write what I
know, offer my OPINIONS, and let people reach their own conclusions.
1) As far as I can tell, virtually every one of the comics and original art
pieces for sale by LewisWayneGallery were first listed through Heritage.
2)Some of the items for sale by LewisWayneGallery are even items from
the private collection of Jim Halperin.
3)At least one of the more expensive items was originally a lower grade
when it sold through Heritage, and is now a higher grade.
4) Jim Halperin was in trouble with the law a while back for using a coin
grading/encapsulation service to inflate the grades of his coins, and then
sell them through a Heritage-backed company at inflated prices.
As many of you know, I was one of the bidders for the Marvel 1 CGC 8.5
Denver copy now up for sale on eBay under the name
LewisWayneGallery. I was participating via phone bidding, when I was
outbid by some small amount. ($100 or $1000 I don't remember.) The bid
increment at the time was $10,000. If I wanted to outbid this bidder, I
believe I was told I was going to have to raise my bid by $20,000 to defeat
the bid that had outbid me. (I might have been told $10,000, but I think I
was told $20,000.) So if I wanted to buy the book it was going to cost me
$170,000-$180,000.
IF it is true that Heritage is buying books that they are selling on
13 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
consignment, then I think there is a serious problem. In this example, they
would have manipulated their bidding system to get the book as cheaply
as possible. When you figure they paid "$161,000" minus a 15% buyers
premium at the time and 10% sellers premium, they would have
essentially been buying the book for $120,750. Essentially offering the
book to themselves at almost $60,000 less than anyone else participating
in the auction would have the opportunity to purchase the book for.
IF this situation occured the way I believe it may have, the seller loses
money because before it happened I was prepared to bid higher. Also,
the buyer doesn't get the book, even though I was prepared to pay higher
than anyone else. And Heritage gets a book at almost $60,000 below fair
market value.
Here is where I think it gets really bad though... Has anyone here ever
sat down and really seriously taken an in-depth look at Heritage's
previous auctions archive? On the high end, high grade Golden age
books (worth $10k and up and in CGC 7.5 or higher) does anyone realize
what percentage of these books have sold through Heritage once in one
grade, only to resurface 1 to 2 years later in a considerably higher grade
with a pedigree designation or nic cage designation or whatever removed
from the label?
And who exactly is doing this? The big spenders I know who particpate in
Heritage auctions don't generally take part in the press/resub game as far
as I can tell. The people who do press/resub books for a living as far as I
know typically use Silver/Bronze age books, and have their own avenues
(eBay IDs, websites etc) to sell their merchandise. I can't think of anyone
in the hobby that would be a likely suspect for buying these $10,000+
books through Heritage, cleaning/pressing them, and re-selling them
through Heritage again. And even if I could think of someone who might
likely be doing this, how could someone make money doing this? If
Heritage is getting close to a 30% cut (not 30% of the profits, but 30% of
the sale), whoever is doing this would have to DOUBLE his money
EVERY time, just to come out ahead.
Does anyone else think its possible that its not just Heritage employees,
but Heritage owners that are using their auction house as an opportunity
to get books at below market value (since they don't have to pay the
premiums), having the books regraded to a higher grade, and then selling
them back through their own auction house and affiliated auction houses
at inflated prices? (And before everyone laughs at me, please re-read the
article I linked in my first post. Apparently Halperin has been conning
people since he was a child, and was in serious trouble for doing almost
the same thing with coins not too long ago.)
My own personal opinion, is that the stuff that we know regarding this
situation is only a VERY small percentage of what is actually going on. I
am concerned that as the problem continues to occur, at some point
some sort of law enforcement agency will get involved, there will be a big
scandal, and the entire collecting community will suffer.
14 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
What do your sources say about that, Tim!!???
No, it's fine if you want to pooh pooh it all....but don't give the rest of us grief if we show
more than a little concern over this.
See, no funny pictures. WORDS!
Brad
Edited by Red Hook (09/25/06 08:04 AM)
Post Extras:
bullet123
The Collectinator
#1411156 - 09/25/06 08:23 AM
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
Quote:
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey
Tim, the fact is that you have an oil tanker full of money invested in graded books, you're
going to be selling a chunk of them through Heritage and you are in complete denial over the
fact that the game's afoot. Or worse, you know things are not right, but you don't want to see
Heritage being questioned right before they start showing your books.
Who are your "sources" that all is well? Most likely an industry insider. Probably someone
from....Heritage....right?
Amazing that you could have been on these boards, have read about the kind of practices
going on, and still completely block out all the possibilities from your consciousness that it's
a big game. It's quite an amazing ability. My pictures are simply ways of expressing exactly
what your position represents in my opinion. You love my pictures...except when they hit one
of your own nerves.
If I recall correcty, you said you're about to consign a load of your highgrade Flash's to
Heritage's November Signature Auction, so I can totally understand your attempt to spin the
situation to your advantage. I can understand your admitted self-interest on this topic. Go
right ahead. But don't expect the rest of us to act as if it's Groundhog Day or that it's
September 25, 2003!
Relax Tim, you'll do fine on your books, but don't be surprised if all the 9.4's reappear in six
or twelve months, as 9.6s....on Heritage. You think these guys are amateurs? Do whatever
you want with your books, but please please PLEASE don't feed us your pablum. Have a little
respect. Jeez.
Where the hell have you been the last two years, my friend?
Did Filter81's accusations not raise at least some concern? He has sources too. Everyone
has sources. I spoke with Adam......his material is worth at least serious consideration.
The quotes below came from one of the most important threads to appear on the boards this
year....
15 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Are these the same book?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't want to speculate carelessly, but Filter might be on to
something here. If I'm a seller who has used Heritage in the past, I'd
be pissed to see one of my items listed with this Lewis Wayne
Gallery.
Who knows if they actually paid that hefty 20% buyer's premium on
their purchases? Its not a fair market price if you got a 20% discount
built in.
In my opinion, this is what separates Heritage from the other
clean/press/resubmitters out there.
I don't want to speculate carelessly either, so I'm just going to write
what I know, offer my OPINIONS, and let people reach their own
conclusions.
1) As far as I can tell, virtually every one of the comics and original
art pieces for sale by LewisWayneGallery were first listed through
Heritage.
2)Some of the items for sale by LewisWayneGallery are even
items from the private collection of Jim Halperin.
3)At least one of the more expensive items was originally a lower
grade when it sold through Heritage, and is now a higher grade.
4) Jim Halperin was in trouble with the law a while back for using a
coin grading/encapsulation service to inflate the grades of his
coins, and then sell them through a Heritage-backed company at
inflated prices.
As many of you know, I was one of the bidders for the Marvel 1
CGC 8.5 Denver copy now up for sale on eBay under the name
LewisWayneGallery. I was participating via phone bidding, when I
was outbid by some small amount. ($100 or $1000 I don't
remember.) The bid increment at the time was $10,000. If I wanted
to outbid this bidder, I believe I was told I was going to have to
raise my bid by $20,000 to defeat the bid that had outbid me. (I
might have been told $10,000, but I think I was told $20,000.) So if I
wanted to buy the book it was going to cost me
$170,000-$180,000.
IF it is true that Heritage is buying books that they are selling on
consignment, then I think there is a serious problem. In this
example, they would have manipulated their bidding system to get
16 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
the book as cheaply as possible. When you figure they paid
"$161,000" minus a 15% buyers premium at the time and 10%
sellers premium, they would have essentially been buying the book
for $120,750. Essentially offering the book to themselves at almost
$60,000 less than anyone else participating in the auction would
have the opportunity to purchase the book for.
IF this situation occured the way I believe it may have, the seller
loses money because before it happened I was prepared to bid
higher. Also, the buyer doesn't get the book, even though I was
prepared to pay higher than anyone else. And Heritage gets a
book at almost $60,000 below fair market value.
Here is where I think it gets really bad though... Has anyone here
ever sat down and really seriously taken an in-depth look at
Heritage's previous auctions archive? On the high end, high grade
Golden age books (worth $10k and up and in CGC 7.5 or higher)
does anyone realize what percentage of these books have sold
through Heritage once in one grade, only to resurface 1 to 2 years
later in a considerably higher grade with a pedigree designation or
nic cage designation or whatever removed from the label?
And who exactly is doing this? The big spenders I know who
particpate in Heritage auctions don't generally take part in the
press/resub game as far as I can tell. The people who do
press/resub books for a living as far as I know typically use
Silver/Bronze age books, and have their own avenues (eBay IDs,
websites etc) to sell their merchandise. I can't think of anyone in
the hobby that would be a likely suspect for buying these $10,000+
books through Heritage, cleaning/pressing them, and re-selling
them through Heritage again. And even if I could think of someone
who might likely be doing this, how could someone make money
doing this? If Heritage is getting close to a 30% cut (not 30% of the
profits, but 30% of the sale), whoever is doing this would have to
DOUBLE his money EVERY time, just to come out ahead.
Does anyone else think its possible that its not just Heritage
employees, but Heritage owners that are using their auction house
as an opportunity to get books at below market value (since they
don't have to pay the premiums), having the books regraded to a
higher grade, and then selling them back through their own auction
house and affiliated auction houses at inflated prices? (And before
everyone laughs at me, please re-read the article I linked in my
first post. Apparently Halperin has been conning people since he
was a child, and was in serious trouble for doing almost the same
thing with coins not too long ago.)
My own personal opinion, is that the stuff that we know regarding
this situation is only a VERY small percentage of what is actually
going on. I am concerned that as the problem continues to occur,
at some point some sort of law enforcement agency will get
involved, there will be a big scandal, and the entire collecting
community will suffer.
17 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
What do your sources say about that, Tim!!???
No, it's fine if you want to pooh pooh it all....but don't give the rest of us grief if we
show more than a little concern over this.
See, no funny pictures. WORDS!
Brad
Even if Heritage employees are purchasing the books, show me in the auction terms
where it says they do not have to pay the premiums like everyone else?
Also, the part where Filter says he was outbid by less than the increment online, this
happens all the time in the live portion of the auction. The auctioneer will sometimes
except a less than the next increment bid and sometimes they wont. Also if you bid
150,000 and someone else previously bid 151,000 for a book even though the extra
1,000 is not a "next increment" it will still make that person the winning bidder. That is
simmply a flaw in the auction system. Some auction houses only let you bid in specific
increments (Mastronet comes to mind) while most others use the format that Heritage
uses where you do not have to bid specific increments.
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
#1411157 - 09/25/06 08:24 AM
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
This point is the big one:
Quote:
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
My own personal opinion, is that the stuff that we know regarding this situation is only a
VERY small percentage of what is actually going on. I am concerned that as the problem
continues to occur, at some point some sort of law enforcement agency will get involved,
there will be a big scandal, and the entire collecting community will suffer
If this does happen, and the scandal reaches the masses via mainstream media.....the
specs are going to dump their investments in a hurry & exit the 'hobby' forever.
18 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
This will be what finally bursts the bubble.
The crash of the 90s will look like a walk in the park in comparison.
If Heritage goes down due to the crack/press/resub game.....it will only be a matter of
time before CGC itself comes under scrutiny by simply being the means in which the
game was played.
It's going to get ugly.
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
THE_BEYONDER]
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
#1411160 - 09/25/06 08:30 AM
I'm not seeing armageddon here. I'm hoping it doesn't get ugly. I hope no collectors
who have invested huge chunks of dough (like Bullet and Tim) lose their investment
value.
BTW......does it say anywhere on the Heritage site that their employees can bid on
auctions, or is this info anecdotal?
Edited by Red Hook (09/25/06 08:31 AM)
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
Flaming_Telepath
#1411164 - 09/25/06 08:35 AM
Reply
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I don't want to see anyone lose their shirts(houses?) in this. But one has to understand
that perception is everything, and if a scandal hits the mainstream media, investors will
drop their 'stocks' in a heartbeat.
Post Extras:
#1411181 - 09/25/06 09:00 AM
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
Quote:
BTW......does it say anywhere on the Heritage site that their employees can bid on auctions,
or is this info anecdotal?
Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 2924
Not sure about details on the site, but they have confirmed that's the case in the
press...and rigorously defended them doing so.
19 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
They stated that there was nothing underhand about it. So, obviously it's a clean game.
-------------------WANTED!!!
105, 107, 108, 112, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120
PM me with details.
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
PedigreeMan
More a help than a
hindrance
Flaming_Telepath]
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
#1411187 - 09/25/06 09:06 AM
Heritage employees must have some killer collections by now...
Post Extras:
#1411188 - 09/25/06 09:08 AM
Reply
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Quote:
Reged: 05/28/02
Posts: 1702
Loc: Western Burbs of
Chicago
Finally, if Heritage are the ones doing the scamming (i.e., taking the inventory risk I refer to
above), why in the world would they provide us with such a fine image archive which has been
the source for identifying 90+% of the monkey business going on here? If they took down the
images after the conclusion of each auction (like EVERYONE else in the business), I think a
lot of this would have flown completely under the radar. If Heritage are crooks, they are
extremely stupid crooks, and I don't think they are stupid.
I would love to get a copy of Halperin's settlement with the FTC to see if it contains any
requirements on his future ventures needing to maintain an "auction archive."
-------------------"Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them
misunderstood."
"There is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and
wrong."
-- H.L. Mencken
"When I ask you a question, I already know the answer."
-- Ali Soufan to Abu Jandal shortly after 9/11
20 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: PedigreeMan]
#1411189 - 09/25/06 09:09 AM
Reply
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Quick Reply
Reply
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Quick Reply
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER]
Edit
#1411195 - 09/25/06 09:13 AM
I must have really pizzed Tim off.......he threw in a major punishment bid on that Green
River I was keeping an eye on.......
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
Special Value Menu Bid
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
Reply
#1411197 - 09/25/06 09:17 AM
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Depending on his proxy bid, it could be you who lays some punishment.
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER]
Edit
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#1411199 - 09/25/06 09:19 AM
I've got nothing to worry about..... my employees are allowed to bid on this auction. I
see a 9.8 in this book's future.
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
Post Extras:
bullet123
#1411201 - 09/25/06 09:21 AM
21 of 52
Reply
Quote
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9/26/06 8:18 PM
The Collectinator
Quote:
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey
I'm not seeing armageddon here. I'm hoping it doesn't get ugly. I hope no collectors who have
invested huge chunks of dough (like Bullet and Tim) lose their investment value.
BTW......does it say anywhere on the Heritage site that their employees can bid on auctions,
or is this info anecdotal?
The terms of the auction are listed in the front of every catalogue they issue. I do not
know if terms are listed on the website.
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
#1411202 - 09/25/06 09:21 AM
Reply
Quote
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Quote:
I've got nothing to worry about..... my employees are allowed to bid on this auction. I see a
9.8 in this book's future.
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
Employees.....or minions?
Post Extras:
Vtcomics
If I just sell the car, I can up
my bid...
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 153
Loc: Grand Isle, VT
THE_BEYONDER]
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
#1411205 - 09/25/06 09:22 AM
Quote:
This point is the big one:
Quote:
My own personal opinion, is that the stuff that we know regarding this situation is only
a VERY small percentage of what is actually going on. I am concerned that as the
problem continues to occur, at some point some sort of law enforcement agency will
get involved, there will be a big scandal, and the entire collecting community will
suffer
If this does happen, and the scandal reaches the masses via mainstream
media.....the specs are going to dump their investments in a hurry & exit the
'hobby' forever.
22 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
This will be what finally bursts the bubble.
The crash of the 90s will look like a walk in the park in comparison.
If Heritage goes down due to the crack/press/resub game.....it will only be a
matter of time before CGC itself comes under scrutiny by simply being the
means in which the game was played.
It's going to get ugly.
I agree completely. I have been on the sidelines for years watching Heritage play their
little games. I am glad to see some of you guys are taking notice and calling them out.
Once everything is exposed, it will all be VERY ugly.
-------------------Phil
"Ted Nugent called....he wants his shirt back"
http://vtcomics.itgo.com/index.html
WTB:
Action 2-29
Batman 1
All Schomburg Timely's
Detective 1-9
Fight 31
Brenda Starr 14
Blue Beetle 54
Phantom Lady 13-20
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Vtcomics]
Reply
#1411206 - 09/25/06 09:25 AM
Quote
Quick Reply
Would you rather be stuck with 1000 copies of Spawn 1, or a single CGC 10.0 copy?
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
That's the difference I see between the crash of the 90s & a crash of the current
market.
Post Extras:
bullet123]
Edit
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#1411218 - 09/25/06 09:34 AM
Quote:
23 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
Quote:
I'm not seeing armageddon here. I'm hoping it doesn't get ugly. I hope no collectors
who have invested huge chunks of dough (like Bullet and Tim) lose their investment
value.
BTW......does it say anywhere on the Heritage site that their employees can bid on
auctions, or is this info anecdotal?
The terms of the auction are listed in the front of every catalogue they issue. I
do not know if terms are listed on the website.
I downloaded the pdf of their terms....which is several pages of closely spaced
type.....and found no reference to the fact that employees could bid on auctions. Does
it actually mention that in their catalogues? I know most bidders don't get the
catalogues. It certainly wouldn't be difficult to add that info to an online version of the
terms. Copy and paste.
Post Extras:
MutantKeys
FACT if I stop posting,
trillions and trillions of
transistors would be out of
work.
THE_BEYONDER]
Reply
Quote
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#1411219 - 09/25/06 09:36 AM
Quote:
Reged: 05/30/04
Posts: 4894
Loc: New York
Would you rather be stuck with 1000 copies of Spawn 1, or a single CGC 10.0 copy?
.
Is that a trick question??
-------------------Post Extras:
drbanner
TOTAL NEWBIE
#1411227 - 09/25/06 09:50 AM
Reply
Quote
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Quote:
Reged: 05/20/02
Posts: 8612
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun
24 of 52
Quote:
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Quote:
I'm not seeing armageddon here. I'm hoping it doesn't get ugly. I hope no
collectors who have invested huge chunks of dough (like Bullet and Tim) lose
their investment value.
BTW......does it say anywhere on the Heritage site that their employees can
bid on auctions, or is this info anecdotal?
The terms of the auction are listed in the front of every catalogue they
issue. I do not know if terms are listed on the website.
type.....and found no reference to the fact that employees could bid on auctions.
Does it actually mention that in their catalogues? I know most bidders don't get
the catalogues. It certainly wouldn't be difficult to add that info to an online
version of the terms. Copy and paste.
I don't know how they come up with the list of who receives their catalogue, but I
imagine if you ever win anything they start sending 'em to you...I started getting them a
long time ago when they were advertised as "for sale" for like $50 each!?!?
Anyhow, in their latest catalog under term #22 it states "The auctioneer or its affiliates
may consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other
lots." I don't see anything specifically differentiating between "the auctioneer" and the
auctioneer's employees (bidding as private individuals), nor do I see anything that
would preclude the auctioneer's employees from bidding.
-------------------WANTED (9.0 or better):
Batman 221, 231, 235, 243, 244, 245
Challengers of the Unknown 67
Phantom Stranger 3, 9, 10, 13
Tomahawk 117, 121
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: drbanner]
#1411231 - 09/25/06 09:54 AM
Reply
Quote
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Quote:
"The auctioneer or its affiliates may consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on
those lots or any other lots."
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
25 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
just out...
Who's the "auctioneer"?
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
drbanner]
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#1411232 - 09/25/06 09:55 AM
Glad they're being clear and upfront about it.
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
It's like the terms printed on the back of your credit card statement. It's meant to be
overlooked and misconstrued.
Post Extras:
bullet123
The Collectinator
#1411234 - 09/25/06 09:56 AM
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
Quote:
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not seeing armageddon here. I'm hoping it doesn't get ugly. I hope no
collectors who have invested huge chunks of dough (like Bullet and Tim) lose
their investment value.
BTW......does it say anywhere on the Heritage site that their employees can
bid on auctions, or is this info anecdotal?
The terms of the auction are listed in the front of every catalogue they
issue. I do not know if terms are listed on the website.
type.....and found no reference to the fact that employees could bid on auctions.
Does it actually mention that in their catalogues? I know most bidders don't get
the catalogues. It certainly wouldn't be difficult to add that info to an online
version of the terms. Copy and paste.
I am at work and do not have a catalogue here.... What employee are you referring to?
Lewis Wayne Galleries? who?
26 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
#1411235 - 09/25/06 09:56 AM
Reply
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Credit card companies have nothing but your best interests in mind.
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
drbanner
TOTAL NEWBIE
Post Extras:
#1411237 - 09/25/06 10:00 AM
Reply
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Quote:
Reged: 05/20/02
Posts: 8612
It's pretty clear they're saying they can list and bid on their own items...we may not
agree with it, but since someone asked what the catalogue terms and conditions stated
regarding this, I gave the answer.
-------------------WANTED (9.0 or better):
Batman 221, 231, 235, 243, 244, 245
Tomahawk 117, 121
Post Extras:
nikos61
My buddy went to the
mountain top, and all I got
was this lousy title.
Reged: 03/20/03
Posts: 9451
Loc: Southboro, Mass
#1411241 - 09/25/06 10:06 AM
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Yup I just read the same thing you posted. Never paid attention to the statement before
Funny when this stuff happens on Ebay, I think people refer it to as shill bidding and are
mad as hell.
I guess when you have alot of pull in the industry, it gives you a free pass
--------------------
27 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
My Ebay Auctions and Store "Stuff"
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
Reply
#1411243 - 09/25/06 10:07 AM
Quote
Quick Reply
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
It's pretty clear they're saying they can list and bid on their own items...we may
not agree with it, but since someone asked what the catalogue terms and
conditions stated regarding this, I gave the answer.
Post Extras:
element
Talkative?
Reply
#1411245 - 09/25/06 10:08 AM
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hey....i've got an idea. stop collecting comics for investment purposes.
Reged: 01/27/06
Posts: 607
Loc: Chesapeake Bay
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
Post Extras:
drbanner]
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#1411246 - 09/25/06 10:08 AM
It doesn't say "employees". It's not clear. It's misleading. It's buried in a lot of small
print. It's 100% non-customer-friendly.
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
28 of 52
And I would never bid in an auction where insider action was allowed.
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
#1411250 - 09/25/06 10:11 AM
29 of 52
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9/26/06 8:18 PM
are all I see...
Is it even legal?
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
Post Extras:
Vtcomics
THE_BEYONDER]
my bid...
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 153
Loc: Grand Isle, VT
Reply
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Quick Reply
#1411251 - 09/25/06 10:11 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It's like the terms printed on the back of your credit card statement. It's
meant to be overlooked and misconstrued.
It's pretty clear they're saying they can list and bid on their own items...we
may not agree with it, but since someone asked what the catalogue terms
and conditions stated regarding this, I gave the answer.
If true it is deplorable. Any reputable auction firm would NEVER allow it's owners/staff to
partake in any of the auctions. It's the #1 basic rule of thumb. I have a feeling Heritage
is about to find difficulty soon.....
-------------------Phil
WTB:
Action 2-29
30 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Batman 1
Detective 1-9
Fight 31
Brenda Starr 14
Blue Beetle 54
Phantom Lady 13-20
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Zipper68
THE_BEYONDER]
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#1411255 - 09/25/06 10:14 AM
Quote:
Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 2886
Loc: Upstate NY
Is it even legal?
In Texas it is.
-------------------Zipper's Collecting Obsession
Looking for:
* Action Comics -- 31, 35, 40, 43, 44, 48, 54, 55, 58, 59, 62, 63, 66, 86, 89, 90, 91 (4.0 7.0 range)
* Superman Annual #1, 1960 -- midgrade
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are all I see...
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Zipper68]
#1411256 - 09/25/06 10:15 AM
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Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
Is it even legal?
In Texas it is.
Wow
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nikos61
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: element]
#1411257 - 09/25/06 10:16 AM
31 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
My buddy went to the
mountain top, and all I got
was this lousy title.
Never have, I just enjoy owning nice looking copies
-------------------My Ebay Auctions and Store "Stuff"
Reged: 03/20/03
Posts: 9451
Loc: Southboro, Mass
drbanner
TOTAL NEWBIE
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#1411258 - 09/25/06 10:16 AM
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Reged: 05/20/02
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It's like the terms printed on the back of your credit card statement.
It's meant to be overlooked and misconstrued.
It's pretty clear they're saying they can list and bid on their own
items...we may not agree with it, but since someone asked what
the catalogue terms and conditions stated regarding this, I gave
the answer.
If true it is deplorable. Any reputable auction firm would NEVER allow it's
owners/staff to partake in any of the auctions. It's the #1 basic rule of thumb. I
have a feeling Heritage is about to find difficulty soon.....
Heritage (and Heritage employees) bidding on their own auctions is old news and has
been discussed here at length in the past, it's true.
Is it legal? I'm no lawyer, but I recall these previous discussions alluding to the fact that
one of the reasons they are based in Texas is that it's legal in Texas.
32 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
-------------------WANTED (9.0 or better):
Batman 221, 231, 235, 243, 244, 245
Tomahawk 117, 121
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Zipper68
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#1411259 - 09/25/06 10:17 AM
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Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 2886
Loc: Upstate NY
If true it is deplorable. Any reputable auction firm would NEVER allow it's owners/staff to
partake in any of the auctions. It's the #1 basic rule of thumb. I have a feeling Heritage is
about to find difficulty soon.....
While I agree with you, this isn't new information. For years some have speculated that
Heritage is located in Texas for this very reason.
As usual, some people are outraged... most don't care or don't want to know. Heritage
continues to rake in the cash.
-------------------Zipper's Collecting Obsession
Looking for:
* Action Comics -- 31, 35, 40, 43, 44, 48, 54, 55, 58, 59, 62, 63, 66, 86, 89, 90, 91 (4.0 7.0 range)
* Superman Annual #1, 1960 -- midgrade
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are all I see...
#1411262 - 09/25/06 10:18 AM
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"One of the reasons"?
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just out...
Red Hook
I think it's clear that it's the only reason.
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#1411264 - 09/25/06 10:19 AM
33 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Cantankerdetecti
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
Found this interesting article that doesn't necessarily make me jump up and down with
joy, but I'm linking to it here to expand the discussion....please read the whole
thing......some good material in here......
The Harsh Reality
In the end...it's up to each individual as to whether they want to subject themselves to
this possible maniupulation, whether it's illegal or not. That's a no-brainer for me.
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TOTAL NEWBIE
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#1411265 - 09/25/06 10:20 AM
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Reged: 05/20/02
Posts: 8612
It doesn't say "employees". It's not clear. It's misleading. It's buried in a lot of small print. It's
100% non-customer-friendly.
And I would never bid in an auction where insider action was allowed.
You can choose not to read the terms and conditions of any auction you bid on
whether it's ebay, Comiclink, or Heritage. Likewise, you can choose not to bid on any
ebay, Comiclink, or Heritage auction.
-------------------WANTED (9.0 or better):
Batman 221, 231, 235, 243, 244, 245
Tomahawk 117, 121
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Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Red
Hook]
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#1411270 - 09/25/06 10:23 AM
Good advice offered to auctioneers from the article.....my emphasis added.....
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
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Quote:
Perception. The law speaks frequently of the "appearance of impropriety." This becomes an
issue when something generally looks bad, even if it's technically not.
34 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Canons of ethical conduct prescribe that acts should typically be avoided when they might
appear improper to others. Insider bidding often falls under this umbrella of just looking bad.
Auctioneers need to be ever mindful that the public is much against this practice and quite
distrusting of it. Public mistrust readily sees the appearance of impropriety with insider
bidding, even where none exists—and perception often trumps reality.
Practice Suggestion. Here are five suggestions for auctioneers who want to allow insider
bidding.
First, always ensure you have the seller's explicit approval.
Second, never engage in insider bidding if the law of the jurisdiction prohibits it.
Third, always make full and clear disclosure to the crowd that the auctioneer, his staff,
and/or relatives may bid during the sale. Full disclosure cures many ills.
Fourth, always give other bidders more than reasonable opportunity to win the bid.
Fifth, don't ask the crowd if anyone objects to insider bidding and then rely on the
inevitable silence as an endorsement. Many people who do object won't say so publicly.
I like that last one.
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#1411276 - 09/25/06 10:30 AM
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Thanks for the link Brad. Interesting read.
Reged: 04/17/03
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just out...
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
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#1411298 - 09/25/06 10:48 AM
Here's my point.
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
As Doc says, in many ways this is old news.
For us.
But not for the newer board members and the new collectors coming to these boards
every day.
In order to balance out the very overwhelming WOW factor present on boards like
these..... major gush threads about big numbers, high prices realized, new
35 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
pedigrees....I think it's necessary on a regular basis to discuss some of the bigger
consumer-oriented issues that exist in the hobby.
If a newbie comes on here, reads all about this and decides to go ahead and bid on
Heritage auctions....I am 100% fine with that.
If a newbie comes on here, reads about the activity of pressing, the active market in
resubs and the vaguries of grading as practiced by CGC (information that they will find
discussed regularly nowhere else....certainly not on CGC's website or in the hobby
press)...and then decides he'll still take a flyer at a Matt Nelson auction....then I am
100% fine with that.
If a newbie comes on here and learns about Comiclink allowing the auction on their site
of Ewert identified books and the possiblity they might be trimmed, and decided to go
ahead and bid...then I am 100% fine with that.
So some of you may be jaded, or tired of hearing this material... but it's no more tiring
than the endless WOW-CHECK-OUT-THE-NEW-MEGA-NUMBER-BOOK-ON-SITE-X
threads.....and the NEW-KINDA'-PEDIGREE-ANNOUNCED...threads..so it all
balances out in the end, we should all remain friends and lets have a group hug. You do
your thing. I'll do mine.
Red
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TOTAL NEWBIE
Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 11529
#1411309 - 09/25/06 11:00 AM
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I sense this undercurrent of "it can't happen in my hobby, it's all paranoia" in this
thread. It's important to remember that a scandal DID happen in coins....and the man
behind it is now the man behind Heritage. People are free to do as they will, but I have
seen enough. I will NEVER buy from Heritage or bid on their auctions again. It won't
make a bit of difference to them, but I am too fed up with shadiness in this hobby to
contribute, even a little, to an operation that leaves so many unanswered questions.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156_print.html
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The Collectinator
#1411345 - 09/25/06 11:27 AM
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey
Here's my point.
As Doc says, in many ways this is old news.
For us.
But not for the newer board members and the new collectors coming to these boards every
36 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
day.
In order to balance out the very overwhelming WOW factor present on boards like these.....
major gush threads about big numbers, high prices realized, new pedigrees....I think it's
necessary on a regular basis to discuss some of the bigger consumer-oriented issues that
exist in the hobby.
If a newbie comes on here, reads all about this and decides to go ahead and bid on Heritage
auctions....I am 100% fine with that.
If a newbie comes on here, reads about the activity of pressing, the active market in resubs
and the vaguries of grading as practiced by CGC (information that they will find discussed
regularly nowhere else....certainly not on CGC's website or in the hobby press)...and then
decides he'll still take a flyer at a Matt Nelson auction....then I am 100% fine with that.
If a newbie comes on here and learns about Comiclink allowing the auction on their site of
Ewert identified books and the possiblity they might be trimmed, and decided to go ahead and
bid...then I am 100% fine with that.
So some of you may be jaded, or tired of hearing this material... but it's no more tiring than
the endless WOW-CHECK-OUT-THE-NEW-MEGA-NUMBER-BOOK-ON-SITE-X threads.....and
the NEW-KINDA'-PEDIGREE-ANNOUNCED...threads..so it all balances out in the end, we
should all remain friends and lets have a group hug. You do your thing. I'll do mine.
Red
Finally a rational post. I too think that what you are doing is imformative and ultimately,
people should be smart enough to make their own decisions based on the "facts"
presented. It is the endless speculation based on nothing factual that annoys people
like myself and Tim and I am sure others.
One example that both Tim and I have first hand knowledge of.
I have seen on more than one occasion people accuse Heritage of shill bidding their
own auctions up to a persons maximum bid. If that were true, just from the bids I have
placed personally my bill at Heritage would have been about $300,000 more for the last
three years. That is just one bidder. I know Tim has had a similar experience because
we have spoke about it. ( I can't speak to $ specifics for Tim as that would be me
guessing but I am sure he can shed some light on the subject.
At a panel at the SDCC in 2005 Jon Berk put collecting books into perspective for all
when he said " I can remember when you would ask a dealer how much a book was
and his response was, "it's a $500 book" and when asked what he graded it his
response was, "what different does it make it's a $500 book". You either decided you
wanted to spend $500 for it or you moved on.
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my bid...
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 153
37 of 52
#1411350 - 09/25/06 11:30 AM
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can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in the coin
genre? thanks!
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Loc: Grand Isle, VT
-------------------Phil
WTB:
Action 2-29
Batman 1
Detective 1-9
Fight 31
Brenda Starr 14
Blue Beetle 54
Phantom Lady 13-20
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Ze-man
#1411353 - 09/25/06 11:32 AM
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Andy, Brad, both of the points you made combine to sum up how I feel.
Just because WE all have discussed topics like this before, does not mean that new
members know about them, let alone know how to seach for them. Seeing how we
discuss any given topic in such detail might actually scare off a good many new
members from wanting to contribute to the conversation. But at least they can walk
away from a thread with a different persective of the hobby by what they read. In most
cases, BOTH sides of an arguement are usually represented in threads like this.
Altering how,and who we buy our comics from seems to be the biggest change I see
come from all this discourse. I suppose I am more jaded then I was 2 years ago. But at
the same time I still love this hobby and a majority of the people in it. Not letting what I
percive to be rotten in the hobby spoil my fun has been the hard part. The more one
learns the harder it is to stay wide eyed and innocent, but this hobby is not innocent
anymore, if it ever was.
Opening your eyes to what is going on around you does not mean one cannot still
enjoy the hobby. But I am not in it for the money, so perhaps I see things in a differet
light.
Heritage is what it is, a big machine that keeps chugging along. Myself, Red, Filter or
Andy and others not buying from them wont stop them in their tracks. But I would like to
think if enough people are made aware of at least what could "potentially" be going on,
and have that outweigh their need to buy the pretty books they have for sale, then that
might alter their current M.O. slightly, perhaps, maybe.
Kenny
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9/26/06 8:18 PM
Pedigreed
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 5634
Loc: Lost in the Midwest....
THE_BEYONDER
are all I see...
#1411355 - 09/25/06 11:32 AM
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I think october posted a link in his post above.
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october
TOTAL NEWBIE
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#1411357 - 09/25/06 11:33 AM
Quote:
Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 11529
can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in the coin genre?
thanks!
I put the link in my post above...and unfortunately there is nothing "alleged" about them.
Here it is again.
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october
#1411363 - 09/25/06 11:36 AM
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Now, many coins are on the cusp between two grades and, ergo, between two significantly
different prices. A 1944 half-dollar from the San Francisco mint that's been certified 64 will
only fetch $80 at auction, but a 65 could get $700. So a dealer can crack out the 64 and
resubmit it as a raw coin to the agency that he thinks is most likely to give it the boost.
Halperin says he does this with 15% of the thousands of coins Heritage buys each year.
Much of the time, he gets what he's looking for.
Yep, TOTALLY far fetched that he could be doing the same with comics.
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39 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
TOTAL NEWBIE
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Red Hook
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#1411366 - 09/25/06 11:36 AM
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#1411367 - 09/25/06 11:37 AM
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Very nice spots!
Reged: 01/30/04
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Loc: Lost in the Midwest....
Is it possible to change them?
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#1411369 - 09/25/06 11:38 AM
40 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
At long last I feel regular.
Quote:
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 14720
Loc: SF, CA
At a panel at the SDCC in 2005 Jon Berk put collecting books into perspective for all when he
said " I can remember when you would ask a dealer how much a book was and his response
was, "it's a $500 book" and when asked what he graded it his response was, "what different
does it make it's a $500 book". You either decided you wanted to spend $500 for it or you
moved on.
I remember that discussion. Jon was talking about Steve Fishler. Steve said the
book was $500 and Jon said "What grade is it?" And Steve said "It's the grade that
costs $500." Kinda cuts right to the chase, doesn't it?
-------------------"Those who are fond of claiming that an insistence on civil behavior is some kind of
bias by the moderators depending on which topics get cleaned up are simply engaging
in sensationalism because it amuses them. And they should stop it. Because it gets on
my last nerve. Especially given the enormous amounts of horse manure we wade
through to try and provide an open and accepting posting environment."
Architect, February 6, 2006
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Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Ze-man]
#1411373 - 09/25/06 11:40 AM
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Very nice spots!
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
Is it possible to change them?
Unfortunately not. All you can do is either let the animal run free.....or take it down.
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#1411374 - 09/25/06 11:41 AM
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Reged: 02/03/04
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41 of 52
Quote:
can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in the coin
genre? thanks!
9/26/06 8:18 PM
I put the link in my post above...and unfortunately there is nothing "alleged"
about them.
Here it is again.
Whenever someone trots out the Forbes article, I always think it's a good idea to link
Halperin's rebuttal with it.
Halperin's rebuttal
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Talkative?
#1411377 - 09/25/06 11:42 AM
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Reged: 07/22/05
Posts: 577
I sense this undercurrent of "it can't happen in my hobby, it's all paranoia" in this thread. It's
important to remember that a scandal DID happen in coins....and the man behind it is now the
man behind Heritage.
How likely is it that comics would be one collectible that's immune to shennaigans?
That Forbes article seems to spell it out... (emphasis added)
"He was dead center of his next misadventure after launching a coin grading agency,
Numismatic Certification Institute, in 1984. It, too, went out of business, after the FTC
found that Halperin was giving inflated grades to coins and marketing them through a
Heritage-backed outfit called Certified Rare Coin Galleries."
"Heritage agreed in 1989 to pay $1.2 million in restitution."
"Still, Halperin has found a way to exploit the [professional grading] system[s]. In lieu
of running his own grading agency, he has invested in them and, by his own
admission, has made millions in capital gains over the years (the agencies process
perhaps 60,000 coins a month). He and Ivy each own close to 12.5% of NGC, and
Heritage recently bought a music memorabilia auction business from Collector's
Universe, the publicly traded company that owns PCGS and similar grading services
42 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
for baseball cards and postage stamps."
"Coins graded by outfits like NGC can easily be regraded--upward--in a trick favored
by Halperin and others called "the crack-out game."
"Halperin says he does this with 15% of the thousands of coins Heritage buys
each year."
That seems fairly clear. So why would comic books be "hands-off" in that world?
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october
TOTAL NEWBIE
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: FFB]
#1411378 - 09/25/06 11:42 AM
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Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 11529
Quote:
Quote:
can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in
the coin genre? thanks!
I put the link in my post above...and unfortunately there is nothing
"alleged" about them.
Here it is again.
Whenever someone trots out the Forbes article, I always think it's a good idea to
link Halperin's rebuttal with it.
Halperin's rebuttal
For sure. Thanks for posting it.
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#1411391 - 09/25/06 11:50 AM
43 of 52
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9/26/06 8:18 PM
are all I see...
Anyone know who R. Steve Ivy is?
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
just out...
alecholland
The Collectinator
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Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: MasterChief]
#1411393 - 09/25/06 11:50 AM
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What happened to MasterChief? He started a really interesting thread here. I would like
to see some more examples.
Reged: 11/14/05
Posts: 346
Loc: Turn around
I've been a casual observer of this thread for a few days now and I must say it is
always interesting to me how so many intelligent people can come to such varied
opinions about a matter. It is interesting to see how an individual's background and
career choice also seem to influence how they view a situation.
With that said, I'm of the opinion that you would have to be extremely niave to think that
wherever the opportunity to make large sums of money exists that there wouldn't
occasionally be some devious and underhanded practices to improve the profit margin.
It makes me think about all the car dealers who have cleaned up and sold Katrina
flooded vehicles without disclosing any history to the buyer. Money talks. I think what
goes around comes around though. For me, if the bottom drops out of this whole thing,
it won't affect me, cause I bought my books to read and enjoy. Although I have bought
CGC graded books, I always crack those bad boys. There is artwork and writing on
the inside of those books too after all.
At any rate, I always seem to chime in on these things at the tail end of their lifecycle.
A couple people had a question about scanning books. If a seller (Heritage, CL, Ebay
seller, etc...) wanted to make the whites look whiter, it is no problem to do something
like that in Photoshop. There are a variety of methods you can use to remove yellow
from the whites in an image using Photoshop. You could even set up a recorded action
that could be reused automatically on each image after scanning, eliminating the need
to have someone sit and color correct each scan. I work with product photos all the
time. I could make a yellow comic page look snow white with the click of one button, no
problem.
My two pennies.
----------------------------------------------------------"Ted, while I agree that, in time, our band will be most triumphant. The truth is, Wyld
Stallyns will never be a super band until we have Eddie Van Halen on guitar." - Bill
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#1411397 - 09/25/06 11:58 AM
44 of 52
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9/26/06 8:18 PM
TOTAL NEWBIE
Quote:
Reged: 10/28/02
Posts: 7842
Loc: NY
Quote:
At a panel at the SDCC in 2005 Jon Berk put collecting books into perspective for all
when he said " I can remember when you would ask a dealer how much a book was
and his response was, "it's a $500 book" and when asked what he graded it his
response was, "what different does it make it's a $500 book". You either decided you
wanted to spend $500 for it or you moved on.
I remember that discussion. Jon was talking about Steve Fishler. Steve said
the book was $500 and Jon said "What grade is it?" And Steve said "It's the
grade that costs $500." Kinda cuts right to the chase, doesn't it?
Change the names and numbers,throw in a newspaper being read
conversation I had with Richie Muchin.
and thats the last
-------------------When life hands you lemons,break out the salt and tequila
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#1411402 - 09/25/06 12:00 PM
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Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
It is the endless speculation based on nothing factual that annoys people like myself and Tim
and I am sure others.
I have seen on more than one occasion people accuse Heritage of shill bidding their own
auctions up to a persons maximum bid. If that were true, just from the bids I have placed
personally my bill at Heritage would have been about $300,000 more for the last three years.
That is just one bidder. I know Tim has had a similar experience because we have spoke
about it. ( I can't speak to $ specifics for Tim as that would be me guessing but I am sure he
can shed some light on the subject.
With all due respect.....can you provide a link to that particular accusation? You say
there are several places that's been stated. Where?
Also, what "endless speculation" are you referring to? Can you give any examples?
45 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Here are a few "facts". I don't consider these speculation.
- Heritage does allow their own employees to bid on active auctions.
- Jason Ewert, a charter member of CGC, trimmed books. He also denied pressing
books. His current involvement in the hobby is "unknown".
- There is an active practice of pushing a book to it's potential and resubbing. Certain
dealers seem to consider it their civic duty to do so.
- CGC's grading is sometimes inconsistant, resulting in huge market value swings in
the price of the same book when it reappears with a different grade.
- The definition of a pedigree has undergone recent "muddling".
- Comiclink will auction off Jason Ewert books without public disclosure.
- Less information continues to favor the seller, and hurt the buyer.
- After PCS was folded, Chris Freisen has become a non-entity. No mention on the
CGC website. No appearances at cons or at dinners. No posting on the boards. No
references made to him by any CGC employee.
- Collectors who have invested relatively huge amounts of money in graded books are
naturally going to react defensively to talk of impropriety within the hobby. They have
more at stake. I do consider you and Tim to fall into that category. Nothing personal. I
understand.
As for Filter81's concerns....I file those under "probables and cautionary warnings". I
have spoken to him personally. I do not consider him an irrresponsible person, a
hysteric or a man with a vendetta.
I also do not buy recently graded big number books and definitely prefer old CGC label
books to new label books. Of course my personal current narrow collecting interests
limit my exposure to big number bronze and silver books.
I really would love a summary of some of what you consider to be outrageous,
paranoid accusations without any basis. I would opine that there are not that many.
Edited by Red Hook (09/25/06 12:11 PM)
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#1411405 - 09/25/06 12:05 PM
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Reged: 09/15/03
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can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in
the coin genre? thanks!
46 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Here it is again.
Whenever someone trots out the Forbes article, I always think it's a good idea to
link Halperin's rebuttal with it.
Halperin's rebuttal
Good!
Post Extras:
MasterChief
Hobbyist
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: alecholland]
#1411409 - 09/25/06 12:09 PM
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All:
Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Ventura Hwy
Appreciate the discourse taking place. Great stuff. Never imaged the thread would
take-off the way it has.
Thanks are in order to those who have provided meaningful input. The passion you
display for the hobby is evident. Please continue providing insight, opinions, and if
applicable, informational resources. Hopefully the reader will benefit from your effort.
As mentioned earlier, I have only scratched the surface. Another example will go up
when the current dialog comes to a close.
--MC
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Davenport
Talkative?
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: alecholland]
#1411415 - 09/25/06 12:16 PM
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Reged: 07/22/05
Posts: 577
A couple people had a question about scanning books. If a seller (Heritage, CL, Ebay seller,
etc...) wanted to make the whites look whiter, it is no problem to do something like that in
Photoshop. There are a variety of methods you can use to remove yellow from the whites in
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9/26/06 8:18 PM
an image using Photoshop. You could even set up a recorded action that could be reused
automatically on each image after scanning, eliminating the need to have someone sit and
color correct each scan. I work with product photos all the time. I could make a yellow comic
page look snow white with the click of one button, no problem.
Exactly.
Here's the same book, same holder, same serial number from two different venues,
and judging from the glare, probably the exact same scan.
The left is Heritage and the right is eBay.
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bullet123
The Collectinator
#1411416 - 09/25/06 12:17 PM
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
It is the endless speculation based on nothing factual that annoys people like myself
and Tim and I am sure others.
I have seen on more than one occasion people accuse Heritage of shill bidding their
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9/26/06 8:18 PM
own auctions up to a persons maximum bid. If that were true, just from the bids I
have placed personally my bill at Heritage would have been about $300,000 more for
the last three years. That is just one bidder. I know Tim has had a similar experience
because we have spoke about it. ( I can't speak to $ specifics for Tim as that would
be me guessing but I am sure he can shed some light on the subject.
With all due respect.....can you provide a link to that particular accusation? You
say there are several places that's been stated. Where?
Also, what "endless speculation" are you referring to? Can you give any
examples?
Here are a few "facts". I don't consider these speculation.
- Heritage does allow their own employees to bid on active auctions.
- Jason Ewert, a charter member of CGC, trimmed books. He also denied
pressing books. His current involvement in the hobby is "unknown".
- There is an active practice of pushing a book to it's potential and resubbing.
Certain dealers seem to consider it their civic duty to do so.
- CGC's grading is sometimes inconsistant, resulting in huge market value
swings in the price of the same book when it reappears with a different grade.
- The definition of a pedigree has undergone recent "muddling".
- Comiclink will auction off Jason Ewert books without public disclosure.
- Less information continues to favor the seller, and hurt the buyer.
- After PCS was folded, Chris Freisen has become a non-entity. No mention on
the CGC website. No appearances at cons or at dinners. No posting on the
boards. No references made to him by any CGC employee.
- Collectors who have invested relatively huge amounts of money in graded
books are naturally going to react defensively to talk of impropriety within the
hobby. They have more at stake. I do consider you and Tim to fall into that
category. Nothing personal. I understand.
As for Filter81's concerns....I file those under "probables and cautionary
warnings". I have spoken to him personally. I do not consider him an
irrresponsible person, a hysteric or a man with a vendetta.
I also do not buy recently graded big number books and definitely prefer old
CGC label books to new label books. Of course my personal current narrow
collecting interests limit my exposure to big number bronze and silver books.
I really would love a summary of some of what you consider to be outrageous,
paranoid accusations without any basis. I would opine that there are not that
many.
Here is one from page 3 of this thread
So, since Heritage says no employees ever bid on these auctions for resale, what
exactly happens in a situation like this? Someone buys the book through Heritage as
an 8.0 and thinks it looks like an 8.5 so they send it to CGC. They get the grade they
want and they decide to resell it through Heritage to someone else who buys it thinking
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9/26/06 8:18 PM
the new 8.5 looks like a 9.2. So then this second person cracks the case again and
decides to send it to CGC and this time it comes back a 9.2. After it comes back from
CGC as a 9.2 this person too decides to sell the book through Heritage. Then a third
person buys the 9.2 through Heritage and shortly after that decides to sell the book
directly to Halperin at significantly less than what he paid. Then, rather than auctioning
off the book using his own multi-million dollar consignment service Halperin decides
he'll have better luck consigning the book to LewisWayneGalleries on eBay?
Can you show me where there is irrefutable evidence that Heritage did anything other
than auction these books ?
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JJBEE2001
Learning the Ropes
Reged: 09/19/06
Posts: 29
Loc: Southern California
#1411421 - 09/25/06 12:21 PM
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WOW, big difference in that FF book. Funny how it has Cream to Off-White pages with
a "snow" white cover (at least it does in the Ebay scan).
-------------------WANTED: Jumbo Comics # 31, Jet Aces # 2-4, War Birds # 1-3, Knockout
Adventures # 1
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FFB
#1411422 - 09/25/06 12:21 PM
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Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 14720
Loc: SF, CA
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady
dealings in the coin genre? thanks!
Here it is again.
50 of 52
9/26/06 8:18 PM
Whenever someone trots out the Forbes article, I always think it's a good
idea to link Halperin's rebuttal with it.
Halperin's rebuttal
Good!
What I find kind of troubling (and this is not directed at you, Brad) is how whenever
someone trots out the Forbes article, they always neglect to mention Halperin's rebuttal
even though they know it's out there.
From now on, if we're going to cite the Forbes article, let's give equal time to Halperin's
response to it. We'd all want the same consideration if the article were about any of us.
The rebuttal isn't hard to find. jhalpe (Halperin's ID on the boards) has something like 7
total posts on these boards and the link to his rebuttal is in one of his two posts that
isn't on the topic of Ed Jaster's heart attack.
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That`s interesting, and accurate. Gamers count on collectors

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how is it that you know it is the same book? i`m not questioning you