how is it that you know it is the same book? i`m not questioning you

Transcription

Collectors Society Message Boards: Manufactured Gold
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mica
mild mannered mica
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 5875
Loc: The Fashion Runway
FFB
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Viscosity]
#1407515 - 09/22/06 01:26 PM
Reply
Quote
Reply
Quote
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Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: element]
#1407524 - 09/22/06 01:30 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Displaying white pages and a distinctive black "S" grease pencil mark in the book's logo area, this
Very Fine copy of Thrilling Comics #1 sold just under its pre-auction estimate.
Seven-months later the book resurfaced, this time without the unique "S" and re-graded as a Near
Mint -. Also missing from the copy was a light "25.00" pencil mark which was unobtrusively located
in the upper left-hand corner of the original back cover surface.
how is it that you know it is the same book? i'm not questioning you, just wondering.
second how could cgc remove the 8.0 from the records? what could they possibly say?
cgc....what do you have to say?
Any time someone sends the label back to CGC, CGC removes the book from the census. It
happens all the time and it isn't really controversial.
-------------------"Those who are fond of claiming that an insistence on civil behavior is some kind of bias by the
moderators depending on which topics get cleaned up are simply engaging in sensationalism
because it amuses them. And they should stop it. Because it gets on my last nerve. Especially
the enormous amounts of horse manure we wade through to try and provide an open and acce
posting environment."
Architect, February 6, 2006
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1 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
At long last I feel regular.
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 14720
Loc: SF, CA
mikephoen
Learning the Ropes
Reged: 08/31/06
Posts: 26
Loc: calgary,ab,canada
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: FFB]
#1407545 - 09/22/06 01:43 PM
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Quote
My question is why send the old label back, if you're playing the clean/press/resub game? Isnt
easier to pretend its a different book if the original is still in the database? Are they trying to ma
issue appear more rare by lowering the number of total copies in the census? Thats the only re
can think of. There must be a monetary reason for it, I cant imagine someone who is playing th
game caring about the integrity of the census database....
-------------------www.phoenixcomics.ca
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Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
witchuntinphotoshopedness
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: mikephoen]
#1407576 - 09/22/06 02:09 PM
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Quote
Well, they can always claim they returned the label...."for the good of the hobby" and because.
the right thing to do".
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
-------------------"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Hamlet, I.v)
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MasterChief
Hobbyist
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: element]
#1407594 - 09/22/06 02:28 PM
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Quote
Quote:
Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Ventura Hwy
Prior to cataloguing an example, I go over the hi-res scans closely and do a comparison of fea
Some are identified straightaway. Others take longer to match up. I go over the scans again be
putting a post together. I'm sure many here use the same procedure.
If I have posted in error and the books don't match up, I ask that you call me on it. I'm not perfe
could be wrong. The only way you're going to know for sure is if you conduct your own visual
examination.
Hope this helps.
--Mitch
2 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
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esquirecomics
#1407632 - 09/22/06 02:50 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Displaying white pages and a distinctive black "S" grease pencil mark in the book's logo
area, this Very Fine copy of Thrilling Comics #1 sold just under its pre-auction estimate.
Seven-months later the book resurfaced, this time without the unique "S" and re-graded as
a Near Mint -. Also missing from the copy was a light "25.00" pencil mark which was
unobtrusively located in the upper left-hand corner of the original back cover surface.
second how could cgc remove the 8.0 from the records? what could they possibly
say?
Any time someone sends the label back to CGC, CGC removes the book from the census
happens all the time and it isn't really controversial.
Of course you mean to say "it isn't really controversial to CGC."
I agree. They are simply implementing their business model. It is exactly what they envisioned
quietly promoted at their start-up meetings in 1999.
The more important question is "is it controversial" or "does anyone care" within the communit
this is being done.
-------------------Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
www.EsquireComics.com
Please consider joining the Network of Disclosure and supporting the principles of education, in
and security by going to www.networkofdisclosure.com.
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3 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Managing Copy Partner
Boy Boss
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 5088
Loc: Washington, D.C.
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: esquirecomics]
#1407649 - 09/22/06 03:00 PM
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Quote
And I'll follow that up with another question....
Who is "the community", at large?
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
Is it us?
I don't think so.
I believe that the collecting community "at large" is still mainly in the dark about many of the iss
being debated here on the boards.
Post Extras:
bullet123
The Collectinator
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Davenport]
#1407668 - 09/22/06 03:07 PM
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Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey
The path this one takes is interesting...
July 2005 Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC VF 8.0 Off-white to white pages. "This is currently the highest grade
awarded by CGC for this issue."
March 2006 Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC NM 9.4 on Ebay, reserve not met.
May 2006 goes back to Heritage Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC NM 9.4
Of course the 8.0 is no longer in the census.
4 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
5 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Can someone who thinks this is so controversial tell me what is the difference between this an
someone who buys it and then cracks it out and sells it raw? It was obviously a nice looking 8.
to begin with.???
-------------------"Better to remain silent and thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Post Extras:
esquirecomics
Boy Boss
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Red Hook]
#1407671 - 09/22/06 03:07 PM
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Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/20/05
6 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Posts: 5088
Is it us?
I don't think so.
I believe that the collecting community "at large" is still mainly in the dark about many of the issues being
debated here on the boards.
Yes, I was referring to the larger COMMUNITY and not just the CGC boards. And I agree with
assessment of the lack of light within the community.
-------------------Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
Post Extras:
bullet123
The Collectinator
#1407697 - 09/22/06 03:21 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
Is it us?
I don't think so.
I believe that the collecting community "at large" is still mainly in the dark about many of the issues
being debated here on the boards.
Yes, I was referring to the larger COMMUNITY and not just the CGC boards. And I agree
with your assessment of the lack of light within the community.
Is it uninformed or apathy? I think the vocal minority on these boards would like to think that ev
shares their opinions or they will shout even louder until they do. I am not saying that some of t
issues that are brought up on these boards are not noteworthy. They are, but hearing about th
nauseum makes coming to these boards to learn about comics and their history, not controve
rather daunting task sometimes. If we spent as much time and effort on collecting and learning
history behind this great medium instead of ranting and raving and being civil towards each oth
hobby might actually turn out to be a fun. Just imagine with me for a moment, having fun at som
7 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
you like to do. What a wonderful world this would be
Post Extras:
esquirecomics
Boy Boss
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: bullet123]
#1407705 - 09/22/06 03:25 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 5088
Quote:
Is it us?
I don't think so.
I believe that the collecting community "at large" is still mainly in the dark about many of
the issues being debated here on the boards.
Yes, I was referring to the larger COMMUNITY and not just the CGC boards. And I
agree with your assessment of the lack of light within the community.
Is it uninformed or apathy? I think the vocal minority on these boards would like to think tha
everyone shares their opinions or they will shout even louder until they do. I am not saying
that some of the issues that are brought up on these boards are not noteworthy. They are,
but hearing about them ad nauseum makes coming to these boards to learn about comics
and their history, not controversy, a rather daunting task sometimes. If we spent as much
time and effort on collecting and learning the history behind this great medium instead of
ranting and raving and being civil towards each other this hobby might actually turn out to b
a fun. Just imagine with me for a moment, having fun at something you like to do. What a
wonderful world this would be
I think most of the community doesn't know simply because they aren't aware that these issue
even being debated. Of course I don't doubt that a segment of the population does know and d
care.
And I certainly agree with you that beating the horse to death is neither informative nor very
interesting, and I think that is why you have seen certain posters on these boards not post as
8 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
That said, the discussions on many of these controversial issues has been very informative an
educational. I often receive comments from people who just recently came across a particular
and would invariably say they were new to the boards and had not known of the debate and w
now glad they were. Because threads "fade" away the only way to continue the message is to
continue the discussion.
-------------------Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
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Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
#1407712 - 09/22/06 03:28 PM
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Quote
There are plenty of active threads about comics and their history. Hundreds.
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
If you don't think a thread including a discussion of the literal erasure of a comic's markings an
pedigree status doesn't have anything to do with the hobby's history, then there is no hope for
I for one, will continue to voice my active disapproval of current conditions....ad nauseum....unt
are changes made. No compromise, no loss of interest and no wandering of attention. Sorry, b
not here to entertain you. There are plenty of other threads to choose from.
Edited by Red Hook (09/22/06 03:34 PM)
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rjpb
If you have a dream about
out-posting me, you better
wake up and apologize.
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: RareHighGrade]
#1407714 - 09/22/06 03:29 PM
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Quote
Quote:
Wow, you're good MasterChief.
Reged: 01/24/04
Posts: 2997
Loc: Studio City CA
Apart from my disdain for the removal of the distinctive markings, I am surprised that the "improved" versi
was able to get a 9.2 grade. I count at least seven visible spine stresses.
Agreed - other than the erasures only the top rt. corner bend looks "Improved" and then only
marginally. 8.0 was a tight grade for the first time around, and really the book shouldn't be more
an 8.5.
Resub roulette has more to do with the massive "value" increase more than manipulation of the
comic itself.
9 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
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rjpb
#1407736 - 09/22/06 03:40 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 01/24/04
Posts: 2997
Loc: Studio City CA
The path this one takes is interesting...
July 2005 Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC VF 8.0 Off-white to white pages. "This is currently the highest
grade awarded by CGC for this issue."
March 2006 Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC NM 9.4 on Ebay, reserve not met.
May 2006 goes back to Heritage Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC NM 9.4
Of course the 8.0 is no longer in the census.
10 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
11 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Can someone who thinks this is so controversial tell me what is the difference between this
and someone who buys it and then cracks it out and sells it raw? It was obviously a nice
looking 8.0 book to begin with.???
A nice looking book that has a visible NCB crease in the LRC in the larger scan of the 8.0 vers
not so visible (but still there) in the "9.4" version. What seems controversial is, a) the manipulat
these books to achieve a higher grade, and b) the suspicion that Heritage itself is playing the p
clean and resub game. Perhaps not illegal, but many would agree unethical if true.
Post Extras:
Viscosity
#1407751 - 09/22/06 03:47 PM
12 of 54
Reply
Quote
9/26/06 8:17 PM
(S)uper Collector
Quote:
Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 299
Loc: Concrete Jungle
If you don't think a thread including a discussion of the literal erasure of a comic's markings and it's pedig
status doesn't have anything to do with the hobby's history, then there is no hope for you.
I for one, will continue to voice my active disapproval of current conditions....ad nauseum....until there are
changes made. No compromise, no loss of interest and no wandering of attention. Sorry, but I'm not here
entertain you. There are plenty of other threads to choose from.
Everytime a blockhead like you starts whining.....it doubles my determination.
Thanks.
Thanks Red
you wrote everything I wanted to write, but saved me the time
Truly, ANYONE that is not "somewhat" disturbed by 8.0 upgrades to a 9.4 tier with ANY book..
It amazes me that CGC continues to allow itself to be a willing participant in "suspect protocols
seem to change by the year
As someone who first submitted books to CGC back in June
2000, and continued to for 31/2 years later...this kind of "stuff" has left me ill
and I have not, nor will...submit ever again, until something changes.
Also, simply for the sake of controversy am I the only one that always thought a third party
ANYTHING...should NOT socialize, nor drink wine, and have steak dinners...with your largest
submitters????
I mean, WOW...talk about a bad principle, business decision. Regardless
actual intent, or innocent nature...the perception ALONE that it gives, is akin to this:
bad choice guys
consorting with clients outside of a business arena, is a 180' from the definition of "3rd party"
-------------------Uh, don't bother, I really don't give a S@#T...
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Red Hook
#1407765 - 09/22/06 03:53 PM
13 of 54
Reply
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9/26/06 8:17 PM
Cantankerdetecti
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
bullet123
The Collectinator
Well, I did retract my "blockhead" reference. That was unwarranted.
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#1407777 - 09/22/06 03:57 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey
If you don't think a thread including a discussion of the literal erasure of a comic's markings and it's pedig
status doesn't have anything to do with the hobby's history, then there is no hope for you.
I for one, will continue to voice my active disapproval of current conditions....ad nauseum....until there are
changes made. No compromise, no loss of interest and no wandering of attention. Sorry, but I'm not here
entertain you. There are plenty of other threads to choose from.
Curious, all the "evil-doer's" of this hobby have affected your comic collecting habits how?
What exactly did you collect before you found out the hobby was rife with controversy that you
longer collect?
What have you been unable to collect and why since you learned that, in your mind at least, the
hobby is out to get you?
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
#1407797 - 09/22/06 04:04 PM
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Quote
Never mind. You are a blockhead.
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
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bullet123
The Collectinator
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
14 of 54
#1407818 - 09/22/06 04:11 PM
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Quote
I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters who conti
harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things you rant and rave about have
affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple question. I will repeat it for you.
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Loc: New Jersey
What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that go on in th
hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical stance prevents you f
doing?
Post Extras:
Apotheosis
#1407841 - 09/22/06 04:22 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Also, simply for the sake of controversy
am I the only one that always thought a third party
ANYTHING...should NOT socialize, nor drink wine, and have steak dinners...with your largest submitters??
I mean, WOW...talk about a bad principle, business decision. Regardless of its actual intent, or
innocent nature...the perception ALONE that it gives, is akin to this:
bad choice guys
You may not be the only one that feels this way, but it doesn't make you right.
Why in the world should they not have dinner with people? Remember... most of the staff at CG
were big time collector's before they worked there. Many of them had contacts with these peop
before they went into business. Should the say "Hey... I know I've known you for 20 years and
all buddy buddy, but now that I work at CGC I can't consort with you any more"? These are pe
within the business. It's only natural for them to talk and eat with others from the business. I ca
think of another industry on the planet where the people in it can't socialize with the people they
business with.
Does it make them less impartial? Maybe, but there's no way to ever know that for sure.
Theoretically the people grading the comics don't know who submitted them so there shouldn't
any preferential treatment, but again you never know.
Speculating that there is something sinister about Steve B. having dinner with Vincent from me
waste of time. Now if you have proof that Vincent slipped an envelope filled with cash to Steve
dinner... well then we have something to talk about. If not then let it go and let's talk about the
problems that we KNOW are happening.
-------------------"The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know it is round; I have seen its shadow on the mo
And I have more faith in the Shadow than in the Church." ~ Ferdinand Magellan
Visit my CAF gallery
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15 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 1462
Loc: Hell! aka Phoenix
esquirecomics
Boy Boss
#1407843 - 09/22/06 04:23 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 5088
I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters who continue to harp
things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things you rant and rave about have affected your
collecting habits. It really is a simple question. I will repeat it for you.
What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that go on in the hobby,
that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical stance prevents you from doing?
For me it is not as much what I have chosen not to collect due to the "issues" in our hobby, bu
whom/what I will buy from or sell to (or use to sell).
Though I am certainly leary/suspicious of certain HG books and I have refrained from purchas
them because I was uncertain of their history. But not like I have stopped collecting a particular
such as More Fun comics or a genre such as Golden Age.
-------------------Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
Post Extras:
Viscosity
(S)uper Collector
#1407846 - 09/22/06 04:23 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 299
Are you one of them????
16 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
come on, be a man...admit it!
p.s.
and DON'T respond with "one of whom"
Post Extras:
esquirecomics
Boy Boss
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Apotheosis]
#1407853 - 09/22/06 04:25 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 5088
am I the only one that always thought a third party
ANYTHING...should NOT socialize, nor drink wine, and have steak dinners...with your largest
submitters????
I mean, WOW...talk about a bad principle, business decision. Regardless of its
actual intent, or innocent nature...the perception ALONE that it gives, is akin to this:
bad choice guys
Why in the world should they not have dinner with people? Remember... most of the staff a
CGC were big time collector's before they worked there. Many of them had contacts with
these people before they went into business. Should the say "Hey... I know I've known you
for 20 years and were all buddy buddy, but now that I work at CGC I can't consort with you
any more"? These are people within the business. It's only natural for them to talk and eat
with others from the business. I can't think of another industry on the planet where the peop
in it can't socialize with the people they do business with.
Does it make them less impartial? Maybe, but there's no way to ever know that for sure.
Theoretically the people grading the comics don't know who submitted them so there
shouldn't be any preferential treatment, but again you never know.
Speculating that there is something sinister about Steve B. having dinner with Vincent from
metro is a waste of time. Now if you have proof that Vincent slipped an envelope filled with
cash to Steve at dinner... well then we have something to talk about. If not then let it go and
let's talk about the problems that we KNOW are happening.
17 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
I agree. I have no problems with CGC staff maintaining friendships with anyone so long as it do
cross the line into inappropriate conduct.
Geez, at most forum dinners it is typically for Steve B and I to sit together, and certainly buy ea
other drinks. Our personal friendship does not impact our professional relationship.
-------------------Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
Post Extras:
october
TOTAL NEWBIE
Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 11529
Loc: Straight outta Locash
#1407854 - 09/22/06 04:26 PM
Reply
Quote
It's the appearance of impropriety that's important. Regardless of it's effect on their grading, CG
employees having dinner and boozing it up with large scale submitters simply looks bad. It's
especially unprofessional when they hold themselves out as a impartial third party. Remember
Scalia/Cheney hunting trip? Same kind of thing. Nothing may have happened to influence some
decision one way or the other, but it certainly doesn't do a whole lot for people's confidence.
Post Extras:
Apotheosis
Carpal Tunnel
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: october]
#1407871 - 09/22/06 04:35 PM
Reply
Quote
So they shouldn't have dinner or drinks with any dealers? Any idea how few people will show u
the Forum dinners because of that?
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 1462
What if they were friends before CGC? Do they toss that friend so you feel fluffy about it?
Post Extras:
esquirecomics
Boy Boss
#1407881 - 09/22/06 04:38 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 5088
18 of 54
It's the appearance of impropriety that's important. Regardless of it's effect on their grading, CGC employ
having dinner and boozing it up with large scale submitters simply looks bad. It's especially unprofessiona
when they hold themselves out as a impartial third party. Remember the Scalia/Cheney hunting trip? Same
kind of thing. Nothing may have happened to influence someone's decision one way or the other, but it
certainly doesn't do a whole lot for people's confidence.
9/26/06 8:17 PM
You wouldn't like Washington, D.C. then.
-------------------Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
Post Extras:
Viscosity
(S)uper Collector
#1407890 - 09/22/06 04:43 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 299
Quote:
Quote:
am I the only one that always thought a third
party ANYTHING...should NOT socialize, nor drink wine, and have steak dinners...with your
largest submitters????
I mean, WOW...talk about a bad principle, business decision.
Regardless of its actual intent, or innocent nature...the perception ALONE that it gives, is
akin to this:
bad choice guys
consorting with clients outside of a business arena, is a 180' from the definition of "3rd
party"
Why in the world should they not have dinner with people? Remember... most of the
staff at CGC were big time collector's before they worked there. Many of them had
contacts with these people before they went into business. Should the say "Hey... I
know I've known you for 20 years and were all buddy buddy, but now that I work at
CGC I can't consort with you any more"? These are people within the business. It's
only natural for them to talk and eat with others from the business. I can't think of
another industry on the planet where the people in it can't socialize with the people
they do business with.
Does it make them less impartial? Maybe, but there's no way to ever know that for
sure. Theoretically the people grading the comics don't know who submitted them so
there shouldn't be any preferential treatment, but again you never know.
Speculating that there is something sinister about Steve B. having dinner with Vincent
from metro is a waste of time. Now if you have proof that Vincent slipped an envelope
filled with cash to Steve at dinner... well then we have something to talk about. If not
then let it go and let's talk about the problems that we KNOW are happening.
19 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
I agree. I have no problems with CGC staff maintaining friendships with anyone so long as
doesn't cross the line into inappropriate conduct.
Geez, at most forum dinners it is typically for Steve B and I to sit together, and certainly bu
each other drinks. Our personal friendship does not impact our professional relationship.
Mark..
here is where you and I part ways my man. I don't have "proof" of any "inappropriate" conduct
(although, that word in of itself, is vague) nor did I "accuse" anyone either of ANYTHING either
However, what I DID say, and stand by, is this:
A third party ANYTHING should not have outside social conduct with their clients, PERIOD!!!!
could all be completely innocent, who cares? the perception it gives to the industry/community
dangerous. ESPECIALLY once evidence arises, that "some" of those social clients, have prac
"disputed behavior" lets say.(as a lawyer, you should know that dude)
and YES, I don't really care if the guy is your cousin, once that association compromises the
INTEGRITY of the business model, you're damn right you should NOT consort socially, espec
public. Human beings are an emotion based species, hence, "[embarrassing lack of self contro
happens" and favoritism "could" be inacted, sometimes even on a subliminal plane.
Again, it really matters none if impropriety is evident (this is not a court), because the perceptio
creates does the damage all by itself.
I'm sorry, opinions are aplenty, and mine on this issue stands clear
Post Extras:
october
TOTAL NEWBIE
#1407892 - 09/22/06 04:44 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 11529
So they shouldn't have dinner or drinks with any dealers? Any idea how few people will show up to the For
dinners because of that?
You are making it sound like I have a problem with it personally. I don't buy slabs, I don't send
in for slabbing, I don't know Steve Borock, and I don't really care one way or the other. Howeve
20 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
were buying big dollar CGC books from a guy who parties and has dinner with the same peopl
are determining the value of his books, then yes, I would definitely think twice. Anyone with a b
should wonder.
I can't believe I am getting flak for this.
Post Extras:
october
TOTAL NEWBIE
#1407894 - 09/22/06 04:45 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 11529
Quote:
It's the appearance of impropriety that's important. Regardless of it's effect on their grading, CGC
employees having dinner and boozing it up with large scale submitters simply looks bad. It's
especially unprofessional when they hold themselves out as a impartial third party. Remember the
Scalia/Cheney hunting trip? Same kind of thing. Nothing may have happened to influence someone's
decision one way or the other, but it certainly doesn't do a whole lot for people's confidence.
I am sure I wouldn't. Politicians are the second lowest form of life on earth.
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Viscosity
(S)uper Collector
#1407898 - 09/22/06 04:46 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 299
So they shouldn't have dinner or drinks with any dealers? Any idea how few people will show up to the For
dinners because of that?
bahahahahahahahahahaha...did you just really write:
"then who would show up at FORUM dinners"
WHO GIVES A [embarrassing lack of self control]....the paramount issue SHOULD be the real
health, and integrity, of the Comic Book INDUSTRY! That's a bit more important than your "ma
bonding" moments at forum dinners
21 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
...right?
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nikos61
My buddy went to the
mountain top, and all I got
was this lousy title.
#1407910 - 09/22/06 04:52 PM
Reply
Quote
I am pretty sure the graders in Florida were collectors first. So with that thought, I am guessing
they know other collectors in the hobby, that they are friends with or hang out with. Now are th
suppose to stop socializing with these friends because they submit books for grading
Reged: 03/20/03
Posts: 9451
Loc: Southboro, Mass
I dont really see a problem with them getting together with other collectors at functions and still
professional at what they do.
-------------------My Ebay Auctions and Store "Stuff"
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Apotheosis
Carpal Tunnel
#1407913 - 09/22/06 04:53 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 1462
Again, it really matters none if impropriety is evident (this is not a court), because the perception it create
does the damage all by itself.
Is that perception a common one? How many people actually care if Steve has dinner with Vin
Chucky? I honestly don't think most people view that in a negative light.
As for your comment about it not mattering if the person is a cousin, they still shouldn't socializ
utter cr@p. It's unrealistic to think that a person will sever ties with friends because they're a "t
party" and can't be seen to like them. If that were the case nobody would work for these comp
Why would you when you have to toss friends aside so that you don't create the perception of
impropriety to people you'll never know. You're basically asking them to cut off contact with ou
hobby outside of grading. They are people you know.
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chrisco37
#1407914 - 09/22/06 04:53 PM
22 of 54
Reply
Quote
9/26/06 8:17 PM
TOTAL NEWBIE
Quote:
Reged: 04/10/02
Posts: 8745
Loc: Sailing the Seas of
Cheese
Geez, at most forum dinners it is typically for Steve B and I to sit together, and certainly buy each other
drinks. Our personal friendship does not impact our professional relationship.
-------------------It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
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Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
#1407916 - 09/22/06 04:55 PM
Reply
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Quote:
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
23 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
So you read through this whole thread....and that's the best you can come up with?
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Viscosity
(S)uper Collector
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: nikos61]
#1407920 - 09/22/06 04:57 PM
Reply
Quote
Third Party:
Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 299
A conflict of interest is a situation in which someone in a position of trust, such as a lawyer, a
politician, or an executive or director of a corporation, has competing professional or personal
interests. Such competing interests can make it difficult to fulfill his or her duties impartially. Eve
there is no evidence of improper actions, a conflict of interest can create an appearance of
impropriety that can undermine confidence in the ability of that person to act properly in his/her
position.
In the legal profession, the duty of loyalty owed to a client is generally supposed to preclude an
attorney (or a law firm) from representing persons with interests adverse to those of the client.
perhaps the most common example encountered by the general public, the same firm will not
represent both parties in a divorce case.
More generally, conflict of interest can be defined as any situation in which an individual or
corporation (either private or governmental) is in a position to exploit a professional or official c
in some way for their personal or corporate benefit.
Having a conflict of interest is not, in and of itself, evidence of wrongdoing. In fact, for many
professionals, it is virtually impossible to avoid having conflicts of interest from time to time. A c
of interest can, however, become a legal matter if an individual tries (and/or succeeds in) influe
the outcome of a decision, for personal benefit.
There often is confusion over these two situations. Someone accused of a conflict of interest m
deny that a conflict exists because he/she did not act improperly. In fact, a conflict of interest d
exist even if there are no improper acts as a result of it. (One way to understand this is to use
term "conflict of roles". A person with two roles - an individual who owns stock and is also a
government official, for example - may experience situations where those two roles conflict. Th
conflict can be mitigated - see below - but it still exists. In and of itself, having two roles is not ill
but the differing roles will certainly provide an incentive for improper acts in some circumstance
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Apotheosis
Carpal Tunnel
#1407923 - 09/22/06 04:59 PM
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Quote:
24 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 1462
That was meant as a joke... sorry I forgot the I realize that there is no room for humor in you
world of comics. I appolagize and will refrain from not being 100% serious about funny books f
now on <---... that means it's a joke....
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Viscosity
(S)uper Collector
#1407924 - 09/22/06 04:59 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 299
Quote:
Again, it really matters none if impropriety is evident (this is not a court), because the perception it
creates does the damage all by itself.
Is that perception a common one? How many people actually care if Steve has dinner with
Vincent or Chucky? I honestly don't think most people view that in a negative light.
As for your comment about it not mattering if the person is a cousin, they still shouldn't
socialize... utter [Email]cr@p.[/Email] It's unrealistic to think that a person will sever ties with
friends because they're a "third party" and can't be seen to like them. If that were the case
nobody would work for these companies. Why would you when you have to toss friends
aside so that you don't create the perception of impropriety to people you'll never know.
You're basically asking them to cut off contact with our/their hobby outside of grading. They
are people you know.
Uhhhhhhhhhh, dude...IN A BUSINESS TRANSACTION, OR CAPACITY
Obviously, you'll still eat turkey with your cousin at Thanksgiving.
25 of 54
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mica
mild mannered mica
#1407928 - 09/22/06 05:00 PM
Reply
Quote
This thread WAS a great thread where images of doctored books could be viewed all in one pla
it is getting sidetracked.
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 5875
Loc: The Fashion Runway
Although I like the conversation (and encourage it on some level) I wish it was in another
-------------------Collecting every Hezikiah Handlebar
Post Extras:
JJBEE2001
Learning the Ropes
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: chrisco37]
#1407930 - 09/22/06 05:01 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 09/19/06
Posts: 29
Loc: Southern California
Quote:
Geez, at most forum dinners it is typically for Steve B and I to sit together, and certainly buy each
other drinks. Our personal friendship does not impact our professional relationship.
26 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Awesome picture!!! BTW, the day after that picture was taken, Mark listed hundreds of
"Highest-graded" books of his site!
Kidding, Mark. And no, I still won't sell you my book.
-------------------WANTED: Jumbo Comics # 31, Jet Aces # 2-4, War Birds # 1-3, Knockout Adventures # 1
Post Extras:
Viscosity
(S)uper Collector
#1407938 - 09/22/06 05:04 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 299
Quote:
That was meant as a joke... sorry I forgot the
I realize that there is no room for humor in
your world of comics. I appolagize and will refrain from not being 100% serious about funny
books from now on <---... that means it's a joke....
Do you also find it comical that there are many people being robbed of THOUSANDS of their h
earned $$$ because of the [embarrassing lack of self control] going on???? Does that invoke l
for you as well
lord, this hurts
Post Extras:
Viscosity
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: mica]
#1407941 - 09/22/06 05:05 PM
27 of 54
Reply
Quote
9/26/06 8:17 PM
(S)uper Collector
Quote:
This thread WAS a great thread where images of doctored books could be viewed all in one place but it is
Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 299
getting sidetracked.
Although I like the conversation (and encourage it on some level) I wish it was in another thread.
True Mica...i'm sorry.
I take responsibility for being an active part of that distraction
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: nikos61]
#1407950 - 09/22/06 05:08 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
I am pretty sure the graders in Florida were collectors first. So with that thought, I am guessing that they
know other collectors in the hobby, that they are friends with or hang out with. Now are they suppose to s
socializing with these friends because they submit books for grading
I dont really see a problem with them getting together with other collectors at functions and still remain
professional at what they do.
As I recall, whenever CGC has picked up the tab or contributed to any of the forum dinners, it'
for everyone, big collectors, little collectors and total non-customers.
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Apotheosis
Carpal Tunnel
#1407952 - 09/22/06 05:09 PM
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Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 1462
28 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Ok... so what are we talking about then? You state above that they can have dinner, but at the
time they shouldn't?
Or are you saying that they shouldn't talk about work while eating? What if the meal is a "busin
lunch"? What if the whole purpose of going to said meal is to hash out some pricing on submiss
And is there any reason to believe that the CGC people even talk shop when they're having sa
meal? Do we just believe that any meal involving them and someone else from the industry mu
include slab talk?
If they order sandwich's into the boardroom where they're having a meeting is this bad too?
Basically... where do you draw the line? You don't know what they are talking about so you can
know if it's improper or not. Maybe people should be given the benefit of the doubt in what could
personal situation. Then again this is America and we love to be in other peoples business.
Post Extras:
Viscosity
(S)uper Collector
#1407957 - 09/22/06 05:14 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 299
Quote:
Ok... so what are we talking about then? You state above that they can have dinner, but at
the same time they shouldn't?
Or are you saying that they shouldn't talk about work while eating? What if the meal is a
"business lunch"? What if the whole purpose of going to said meal is to hash out some pric
on submissions?
And is there any reason to believe that the CGC people even talk shop when they're having
29 of 54
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said meal? Do we just believe that any meal involving them and someone else from the
industry must include slab talk?
If they order sandwich's into the boardroom where they're having a meeting is this bad too?
Basically... where do you draw the line? You don't know what they are talking about so you
can't know if it's improper or not. Maybe people should be given the benefit of the doubt in
what could be a personal situation. Then again this is America and we love to be in other
peoples business.
Wait...uhhhhhhhhhhhh...its a CGC COMICS FORUM DINNER...correct??? So, there is NO
discussion of, say....comic books????
this is laborious.
Post Extras:
esquirecomics
Boy Boss
#1407960 - 09/22/06 05:15 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 5088
Quote:
Quote:
am I the only one that always thought
a third party ANYTHING...should NOT socialize, nor drink wine, and have steak
dinners...with your largest submitters????
I mean, WOW...talk about a bad
principle, business decision. Regardless of its actual intent, or innocent
nature...the perception ALONE that it gives, is akin to this:
bad choice guys
consorting with clients outside of a business arena, is a 180' from the definition of
"3rd party"
30 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Why in the world should they not have dinner with people? Remember... most
of the staff at CGC were big time collector's before they worked there. Many
of them had contacts with these people before they went into business. Should
the say "Hey... I know I've known you for 20 years and were all buddy buddy,
but now that I work at CGC I can't consort with you any more"? These are
people within the business. It's only natural for them to talk and eat with others
from the business. I can't think of another industry on the planet where the
people in it can't socialize with the people they do business with.
Does it make them less impartial? Maybe, but there's no way to ever know
that for sure. Theoretically the people grading the comics don't know who
submitted them so there shouldn't be any preferential treatment, but again you
never know.
Speculating that there is something sinister about Steve B. having dinner with
Vincent from metro is a waste of time. Now if you have proof that Vincent
slipped an envelope filled with cash to Steve at dinner... well then we have
something to talk about. If not then let it go and let's talk about the problems
that we KNOW are happening.
I agree. I have no problems with CGC staff maintaining friendships with anyone so
long as it doesn't cross the line into inappropriate conduct.
Geez, at most forum dinners it is typically for Steve B and I to sit together, and
certainly buy each other drinks. Our personal friendship does not impact our
professional relationship.
Mark..
here is where you and I part ways my man. I don't have "proof" of any "inappropriate"
conduct (although, that word in of itself, is vague) nor did I "accuse" anyone either of
ANYTHING either.
However, what I DID say, and stand by, is this:
A third party ANYTHING should not have outside social conduct with their clients, PERIOD
It could all be completely innocent, who cares? the perception it gives to the
industry/community is dangerous. ESPECIALLY once evidence arises, that "some" of thos
social clients, have practiced "disputed behavior" lets say.(as a lawyer, you should know th
dude)
and YES, I don't really care if the guy is your cousin, once that association compromises th
INTEGRITY of the business model, you're damn right you should NOT consort socially,
especially, in public. Human beings are an emotion based species, hence, "[embarrassing
lack of self control] happens" and favoritism "could" be inacted, sometimes even on a
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subliminal plane.
Again, it really matters none if impropriety is evident (this is not a court), because the
perception it creates does the damage all by itself.
I'm sorry, opinions are aplenty, and mine on this issue stands clear
Not a problem. It is a very noble opinion and perspective. It would be nice if this type of percep
were reality but, alas, it is not. My world would not exist here in Washington, D.C. if this percep
were implemented into practice (which some could argue would be a good thing!). Indeed, this
country could not run under such a climate given the current system.
Of course, your comments beg the question as to what constitutes "disputed behavior" and wh
determines the definition. I don't think you will see Jason Ewert at any forum dinners for quite s
time. The same thing cannot be said for many other people whose practices have been called
question by those on the boards but are viewed by CGC as in line with its philosphy.
-------------------Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
Post Extras:
Apotheosis
Carpal Tunnel
#1407963 - 09/22/06 05:16 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 1462
Do you also find it comical that there are many people being robbed of THOUSANDS of their hard earned $
because of the [embarrassing lack of self control] going on???? Does that invoke laughs for you as well
Absolutely... I love it when people get jacked out of their cash...
I made one joke. I appolagize. It won't happen again.
Oh yeah... and show me where people are being robbed of THOUSANDS of their hard earned
because CGC employees have dinner with someone in the industry. All I've commented on wa
meals. The other stuff (i.e. re-subs, pressing, etc.) I have made no remarks about because I d
have the knowledge to make remarks one way or the other.
32 of 54
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esquirecomics
Boy Boss
#1407964 - 09/22/06 05:16 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 5088
Quote:
It's the appearance of impropriety that's important. Regardless of it's effect on their
grading, CGC employees having dinner and boozing it up with large scale submitters simply
looks bad. It's especially unprofessional when they hold themselves out as a impartial third
party. Remember the Scalia/Cheney hunting trip? Same kind of thing. Nothing may have
happened to influence someone's decision one way or the other, but it certainly doesn't do
a whole lot for people's confidence.
I am sure I wouldn't. Politicians are the second lowest form of life on earth.
We're the first aren't we?
Don't forget lobbyists! For those interested, check out this week's cover story in USNWR abou
MZM - Cong Cunningham scandal. The story came about largely due to one of my clients (and
quoted!
).
-------------------Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
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Apotheosis
Carpal Tunnel
#1407968 - 09/22/06 05:19 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/29/04
33 of 54
Wait...uhhhhhhhhhhhh...its a CGC COMICS FORUM DINNER...correct??? So, there is NO discussion of,
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Posts: 1462
say....comic books????
So no talks of Comics period. Got it
involved with it. Sad.
They can't talk about the industry they love with anyon
Post Extras:
esquirecomics
Boy Boss
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: JJBEE2001]
#1407969 - 09/22/06 05:19 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 5088
Quote:
Geez, at most forum dinners it is typically for Steve B and I to sit together, and certainly
buy each other drinks. Our personal friendship does not impact our professional
relationship.
34 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Awesome picture!!! BTW, the day after that picture was taken, Mark listed hundreds of
"Highest-graded" books of his site!
Kidding, Mark. And no, I still won't sell you my book.
-------------------Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
Post Extras:
october
#1407971 - 09/22/06 05:20 PM
35 of 54
Reply
Quote
9/26/06 8:17 PM
TOTAL NEWBIE
Quote:
Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 11529
You got it.
Post Extras:
infinite_comics
The Collectinator
#1407973 - 09/22/06 05:22 PM
Reply
Quote
Maybe the problem some people have is that CGC (as a company) sponsors/organizes the di
Reged: 02/15/06
Posts: 343
-------------------"We're going to make EVERYTHING metal...blacker than the blackest black...TIMES INFINITY
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: infinite_comics]
#1407981 - 09/22/06 05:24 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Maybe the problem some people have is that CGC (as a company) sponsors/organizes the dinners?
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
Well, they're more of a gathering of the CGC Boardmembers.....it's not like we have to wear CG
baseball caps or sit under a big banner with Steve's picture on it...............
Many times it's been a boardmember who organizes the thing and collects the money. We do p
you know.
36 of 54
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Apotheosis
Carpal Tunnel
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: infinite_comics]
#1407982 - 09/22/06 05:24 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 1462
Maybe the problem some people have is that CGC (as a company) sponsors/organizes the dinners?
Maybe, but we'll talk about it in the other thread and stop hijacking this one.
My appolagies for pulling this one off course.
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Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
#1407986 - 09/22/06 05:25 PM
Reply
Quote
Ooops. Sorry.
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
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The Collectinator
#1407987 - 09/22/06 05:26 PM
Reply
Quote
Sorry too
Reged: 02/15/06
Posts: 343
37 of 54
-------------------"We're going to make EVERYTHING metal...blacker than the blackest black...TIMES INFINITY
9/26/06 8:17 PM
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sacentaur
Collector is an
understatement.
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: mica]
#1407999 - 09/22/06 05:29 PM
Reply
Quote
I recently returned an expensive Fiction House early GA book to Heritage because the scan s
it to be much whiter than it actually was.
Reged: 03/21/06
Posts: 116
Loc: So Cal
Intentional?
When I complained, I was informed that, 'we scan 2,500 books a month, we're too busy, blah b
Poor quality control?
My money was cheerfully refunded and the book will soon be back on the auction block - indee
current preview displays the exact same bright scan.
So is it deliberate manipulation or is it just indifferent incompetence? Either way, as collectors it
YOUR money at stake. Heritage seems to have forgotten that (or they really just don't care).
Oh, hell yeah it's affected my buying habits - I've now cut back my purchases of expensive bo
90% because of distrust and an increasing lack of collector confidence.
I'm sorry if this thread bothers a few people who would prefer to be an ostrich rather than try to
more about the growing belief that our beloved hobby is ruled by disreputable characters who e
in shady business practices.
Can any of us honestly state that we don't mind paying hundreds (or thousands) of extra dolla
certain raw books to be doctored in order to get a higher CGC grade?
There's no reason for the Greed Merchants to change as long as collectors continue to eager
bags and bags of money at them.
Mitch (nice work BTW), I'm sure you know this already but you've only just started to scratch t
surface...
STEVE
Got Larson?
-------------------Addressing the defendant at the conclusion of the sentencing hearing, United States
District Judge R. Gary Klausner said: "Your worst enemy is your own intellectual arrog
that somehow the world cannot touch you on this."
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FFB
#1408016 - 09/22/06 05:43 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 02/03/04
38 of 54
Quote:
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Posts: 14720
Loc: SF, CA
Quote:
Quote:
Displaying white pages and a distinctive black "S" grease pencil mark in the book's
logo area, this Very Fine copy of Thrilling Comics #1 sold just under its pre-auction
estimate.
Seven-months later the book resurfaced, this time without the unique "S" and
re-graded as a Near Mint -. Also missing from the copy was a light "25.00" pencil
mark which was unobtrusively located in the upper left-hand corner of the original
back cover surface.
how is it that you know it is the same book? i'm not questioning you, just
wondering.
second how could cgc remove the 8.0 from the records? what could they
possibly say?
Any time someone sends the label back to CGC, CGC removes the book from the
census. It happens all the time and it isn't really controversial.
I agree. They are simply implementing their business model. It is exactly what they
envisioned and quietly promoted at their start-up meetings in 1999.
The more important question is "is it controversial" or "does anyone care" within the
community that this is being done.
No, I mean to say it isn't controversial to remove a book from the census if the label isn't in the
anymore.
Now, if you want to talk about whether the newly upgraded 9.4 book should have a "formerly 8
notation its graders' notes, that's a separate issue and one that is definitely controversial.
39 of 54
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MasterChief
Hobbyist
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: sacentaur]
#1408020 - 09/22/06 05:44 PM
Reply
Quote
Reply
Quote
Thanks, Steve. Appreciate the assist with the "S" book.
Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Ventura Hwy
I'll have another example up shortly ...
--Mitch
Post Extras:
esquirecomics
Boy Boss
#1408024 - 09/22/06 05:49 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 5088
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Displaying white pages and a distinctive black "S" grease pencil mark in
the book's logo area, this Very Fine copy of Thrilling Comics #1 sold just
under its pre-auction estimate.
Seven-months later the book resurfaced, this time without the unique "S"
and re-graded as a Near Mint -. Also missing from the copy was a light
"25.00" pencil mark which was unobtrusively located in the upper left-hand
corner of the original back cover surface.
how is it that you know it is the same book? i'm not questioning you,
just wondering.
second how could cgc remove the 8.0 from the records? what could
they possibly say?
Any time someone sends the label back to CGC, CGC removes the book
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from the census. It happens all the time and it isn't really controversial.
I agree. They are simply implementing their business model. It is exactly what they
envisioned and quietly promoted at their start-up meetings in 1999.
The more important question is "is it controversial" or "does anyone care" within the
community that this is being done.
No, I mean to say it isn't controversial to remove a book from the census if the label isn't in
the slab anymore.
Now, if you want to talk about whether the newly upgraded 9.4 book should have a "former
8.0" notation its graders' notes, that's a separate issue and one that is definitely controvers
Understood and basically agree with you on both fronts, although I could easily see how contr
could be created regarding the census removal given why it occurs. Not entirely as black or w
but does make sense from an indexing purpose and I would prefer to see it done so that the ce
remains accurate as far as the existence of graded books goes.
-------------------Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
Post Extras:
FFB
#1408056 - 09/22/06 06:29 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 14720
Loc: SF, CA
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
41 of 54
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Quote:
Displaying white pages and a distinctive black "S" grease pencil
mark in the book's logo area, this Very Fine copy of Thrilling
Comics #1 sold just under its pre-auction estimate.
Seven-months later the book resurfaced, this time without the
unique "S" and re-graded as a Near Mint -. Also missing from the
copy was a light "25.00" pencil mark which was unobtrusively
located in the upper left-hand corner of the original back cover
surface.
how is it that you know it is the same book? i'm not questioning
you, just wondering.
second how could cgc remove the 8.0 from the records? what
could they possibly say?
Any time someone sends the label back to CGC, CGC removes the
book from the census. It happens all the time and it isn't really
controversial.
I agree. They are simply implementing their business model. It is exactly what
they envisioned and quietly promoted at their start-up meetings in 1999.
The more important question is "is it controversial" or "does anyone care"
within the community that this is being done.
No, I mean to say it isn't controversial to remove a book from the census if the label
isn't in the slab anymore.
Now, if you want to talk about whether the newly upgraded 9.4 book should have a
"formerly 8.0" notation its graders' notes, that's a separate issue and one that is
definitely controversial.
Understood and basically agree with you on both fronts, although I could easily see how
controversy could be created regarding the census removal given why it occurs. Not entire
42 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
as black or white, but does make sense from an indexing purpose and I would prefer to se
done so that the census remains accurate as far as the existence of graded books goes.
Right. I think removal of the old label is a good thing, because otherwise people could be misled
thinking that there are more existing copies of scarce books than there are. This is a problem t
already exists to some extent, but to the extent it could be lessened, I think it should be.
Post Extras:
OldGuy
Pugnacious
#1408071 - 09/22/06 06:42 PM
Reply
Quote
I love this [embarrassing lack of self control]ing thread.
Reged: 05/21/02
Posts: 11351
Loc: Santa Fe
-------------------"just a fanboy" comics blog
Chronological Guide To Silver Age X-Men Crossovers
Chronological Guide To Bronze Age X-Men Crossovers - UPDATED 9/7/06
"CBG has confirmed that the mailing address given online by "Comic-Keys" for his business is
despite his denials, connected to Daniel Dupcak, convicted in 1997 for scheming to defraud."
Post Extras:
Bronty
You know that guy that
shows up an hour early for
parties? Yah. I'm him.
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: OldGuy]
#1408101 - 09/22/06 07:04 PM
Reply
Quote
Reply
Quote
I can't stand it. This is some ridiculous shiz..
the part about the meals I mean..
Reged: 03/26/02
Posts: 4410
Loc: Canada
bullet123
The Collectinator
Post Extras:
#1408220 - 09/22/06 08:53 PM
Quote:
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey
43 of 54
Quote:
9/26/06 8:17 PM
I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters who continue
to harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things you rant and rave about have
affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple question. I will repeat it for you.
What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that go on in the
hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical stance prevents you from
doing?
Thats funny you still have not answered my question
Post Extras:
tth2
TOTAL NEWBIE
Reged: 12/04/03
Posts: 10536
Loc: Hong Kong
#1408404 - 09/22/06 11:12 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Remember the Scalia/Cheney hunting trip? Same kind of thing. Nothing may have happened to influence
someone's decision one way or the other, but it certainly doesn't do a whole lot for people's confidence.
Anyone who thinks that anybody could get Nino Scalia to change his opinion on anything is ser
deluded.
I didn't realize that by accepting an appointment to the Supreme Court the justices are signing u
life of seclusion, particularly with respect to socializing with their peers. Same goes for CGC gr
Post Extras:
adamstrange
I was posting here when
you were in diapers.
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: tth2]
#1408414 - 09/22/06 11:16 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 3159
Loc: usa
44 of 54
Remember the Scalia/Cheney hunting trip? Same kind of thing. Nothing may have happened to
influence someone's decision one way or the other, but it certainly doesn't do a whole lot for
people's confidence.
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Anyone who thinks that anybody could get Nino Scalia to change his opinion on anything is
seriously deluded.
I didn't realize that by accepting an appointment to the Supreme Court the justices are sign
up to a life of seclusion, particularly with respect to socializing with their peers. Same goes
CGC graders.
I dunno. Cheney with a gun could be mighty persuasive.
-------------------"You want me to trade you my comic for small rectangular sheets of green paper with the imag
dead white men?"
Post Extras:
tth2
TOTAL NEWBIE
Reged: 12/04/03
Posts: 10536
Loc: Hong Kong
#1408419 - 09/22/06 11:18 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Quote:
You got it.
Accountants are lower!
Who, by the way, even under the stricter standards of Sarbanes-Oxley, can still take their clien
for a meal. So if the guardians of information that's truly worth money can do it, why the hell can
graders in a rinky-dink hobby have dinner with their customers?
Post Extras:
Viscosity
(S)uper Collector
#1408468 - 09/22/06 11:47 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 299
45 of 54
Quote:
Quote:
9/26/06 8:17 PM
You got it.
Accountants are lower!
Who, by the way, even under the stricter standards of Sarbanes-Oxley, can still take their
clients out for a meal. So if the guardians of information that's truly worth money can do it,
why the hell can't graders in a rinky-dink hobby have dinner with their customers?
With all due respect,..you seem to have little knowledge of the essence of "conflict of interest"
AGAIN...this isn't about a crime, an accusation, a claim, or anyone is particular, ect...ect...
all that needs be is the PERCEPTION of impropriety...and the "good faith effort" theorum COUL
lost...this is not rocket science fellas.
leave your emotion, and personal opinions, at the door...its simply a study/question of practical
ethical, business protocols at discussion here
P.S.
On another specific note: there ARE ways around Sarbanes & Oxley...trust me
Post Extras:
tth2
TOTAL NEWBIE
Reged: 12/04/03
Posts: 10536
Loc: Hong Kong
Ze-man
Pedigreed
#1408476 - 09/22/06 11:57 PM
Reply
Quote
Reply
Quote
Post Extras:
#1408516 - 09/23/06 12:31 AM
Quote:
46 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 5634
Loc: Lost in the Midwest....
Now THAT I can understand.
Post Extras:
Bronty
You know that guy that
shows up an hour early for
parties? Yah. I'm him.
#1408535 - 09/23/06 01:02 AM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 03/26/02
Posts: 4410
Loc: Canada
With all due respect,..you seem to have little knowledge of the essence of "conflict of interest"
all that needs be is the PERCEPTION of impropriety...:
There's material conflicts and then there's taking someone out for a meal
Now if you're bu
$2000 bottles of wine and picking up a $20,000 tab that's a different story but if you're going du
buying a nice normal meal its just not a material conflict. I mean christ, what's next, that its a co
for someone to breathe air that someone else paid for the air conditioning on?
Post Extras:
FFB
#1408610 - 09/23/06 06:02 AM
Reply
Quote
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 14720
Loc: SF, CA
47 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Quote:
Quote:
seriously deluded.
CGC graders.
Guys, no one with half a brain thinks there's anything wrong with forum dinners. Just drop it alr
before people start to think that there's any real controversy here.
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
#1408629 - 09/23/06 08:02 AM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
Quote:
I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters who
continue to harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things you rant and
rave about have affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple question. I will repeat it
for you.
What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that go on
in the hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical stance
prevents you from doing?
48 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Thats funny you still have not answered my question
I didn't answer your question because it is a stupid question that has nothing to do with this thre
This is not about me. It's not about my narrow collecting interests. Or yours.
It was also couched in language that I refuse to validate.
But continue on your myopic way.
You really don't get it, and I don't have the time to even attempt to enlighten you. Do your own
homework.
Post Extras:
Red Hook
Cantankerdetecti
#1408630 - 09/23/06 08:04 AM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16548
Loc: Gasoline Alley
Guys, no one with half a brain thinks there's anything wrong with forum dinners. Just drop it already befor
people start to think that there's any real controversy here.
Post Extras:
scheradon
#1408694 - 09/23/06 09:41 AM
49 of 54
Reply
Quote
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 2688
Loc: Back Home Finally!
Guys, no one with half a brain thinks there's anything wrong with forum dinners. Just drop it already
before people start to think that there's any real controversy here.
-------------------Looking for BA Spider-Woman, Human Fly, Tarzan, Godzilla, Eternals, Shogun Warriors and o
Marvels in 9.8 White.
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZscheradonQQhtZ-1QQfrppZ50QQfsopZ1QQfsooZ1QQ
Post Extras:
sacentaur
Collector is an
understatement.
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: MasterChief]
#1408740 - 09/23/06 10:56 AM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 03/21/06
Posts: 116
Loc: So Cal
Thanks, Steve. Appreciate the assist with the "S" book.
--Mitch
You're welcome - my source on the 'S' book was an elder gentleman who bought it direct from
Thailing in 1964.
I've also just heard that the 'S' books were acquired via Mark Wilson, so perhaps he can shed
light on the subject.
50 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
STEVE Got Larson?
-------------------Addressing the defendant at the conclusion of the sentencing hearing, United States
District Judge R. Gary Klausner said: "Your worst enemy is your own intellectual arrog
that somehow the world cannot touch you on this."
Post Extras:
FUELMAN
TOTAL NEWBIE
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: MasterChief]
#1408758 - 09/23/06 11:14 AM
Reply
Quote
Very interesting thread, MC. Please post some more examples as you find them.
Reged: 05/11/04
Posts: 8086
Loc: San Diego Zoo
-------------------The International Institute of Conservation (IIC) has defined restoration as "any attemp
return an object to its original form and purpose, in the attempt to recreate an earlier k
state or condition".- Tracey Heft, Restoration Expert.
Post Extras:
october
TOTAL NEWBIE
#1408957 - 09/23/06 01:43 PM
Reply
Quote
Quote:
Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 11529
Quote:
seriously deluded.
CGC graders.
Yeah, cause that's really what I said. Nice to see you can respond without using hyperbole.
I never mentioned forum dinners either.
Obviously this is an emotional topic for some people. I won't post about it again.
Post Extras:
Flaming_Telepath
#1409945 - 09/24/06 09:10 AM
51 of 54
Reply
Quote
9/26/06 8:17 PM
Quote:
Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 2924
Loc: Hertfordshire, U.K.
I know precisely what you're trying to say...that unless you're willing to back it up, to physically
something, you shouldn't complain or point out wrong-doing...that you have no right.
So unless you actually go down to your local gas station and berate the owner, you've no right
complain about gas prices?
However, I'm going to humour you, as I'm one of those who 'continue to harp on things'.
This is what I've personally done, how I've changed my habits.
1 I will no longer submit anything to CGC, nor will I advise anyone else to do so, nor will I help t
do so.
2 I will buy raw books in preference to slabbed wherever it's viable. Online is not an option, but
shows? Sure. I was at the one-day New York show in January and bought 29 books. None of
was in plastic, but in hand, I'll rely upon my own judgement.
3 I will no longer consider 9.6 or above books, as these, I feel, as the ones that are most likely
have 'reached their full potential'. Oh, and the market volatility that will occur when this sh!te fin
filters down to the community in general is quite scary.
4 I have a list of dealers who I will not buy from, no matter what they have and how badly I 'nee
Names on the list included ComicLink/Josh, Heritage, Steve Lauterbach, Matt Nelson, Doug Sc
SNE and a number of others.
Now, is this putting a cramp in my style? Sure. But it's better than getting out entirely. Does it ta
all risks? Course not...but it sure as hell diminishes them. Will it help change things? No...not on
own, but if others want to make their own personal decisions as to how they want to change,
dependent upon how strongly they feel, and they do so, who knows?
But I tell you what it does do...it makes it easier to sleep at night knowing that you're not putting
money directly into the hands of scumbags just because I so badly need that funny book.
-------------------WANTED!!!
Northland Pedigree - VF/NM or better, raw with certificates. Slabbed copies considered, depen
upon price.
Also, in CGC 9.2 or better, off-white pages or better, with perfect spine registration, the followin
Avengers are needed:- 17, 21, 23, 25, 26, 28, 82, 90, 91, 94, 95, 101, 103, 105, 107, 108, 112,
115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120
52 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM
PM me with details.
Post Extras:
Davenport
Talkative?
Reged: 07/22/05
Posts: 577
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Flaming_Telepath]
#1410003 - 09/24/06 10:37 AM
Reply
Quote
One thing that's changed for me is "grade" on a printed label has become virtually meaningless
might mean an unusual high state of preservation through time, something wonderful and rare.
might mean a recent reconditioning process has occured, something that's cheap to do and
becoming more common. "Grade" doesn't differentiate between the two so...
The first place my eye goes is to the barcode. It's a very weird habit, doesn't do a damn bit of g
but that's where some relevant information might be. So I look to see if there's any "gut feeling"
back-of-the-brain reaction to those digits. Weirdness.
I wish they'd put "submitted by..." on every label. That would be some helpful info to collectors
because it would change with any re-submits. An 8.0 submitted by Guy Average that shows b
later as 9.4 submitted by Heritage Galleries might curtail some of this Game nonsense. At leas
submitted by info would help buyers decide for themselves the likelihood of whether a book ha
recently Coined or not. Which is the same reason it will never happen.
Post Extras:
THE_BEYONDER
The world looks mighty
good to me, cuz signatures
are all I see...
Re: Manufactured Gold [Re: Davenport]
#1410016 - 09/24/06 10:54 AM
Reply
Quote
Your point about the meaning of ' grade ' is a good one.
Looking at the glossary in my copy of OS (#35), I found the definition of 'condition' to be interes
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 19001
Loc: an alternate reality,
just out...
CONDITION - The state of preservation of a comic book, often inaccurately used interchange
with Grade
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54 of 54
9/26/06 8:17 PM

how is it that you know it is the same book? i`m not questioning you

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