Interview no. 195 - DigitalCommons@UTEP

University of Texas at El Paso
DigitalCommons@UTEP
Combined Interviews
Institute of Oral History
7-3-1975
Interview no. 195
Gaspar Cordero
Follow this and additional works at: http://digitalcommons.utep.edu/interviews
Part of the Oral History Commons, and the Social and Behavioral Sciences Commons
Recommended Citation
Interview with Gaspar Cordero by Richard Estrada, 1975, "Interview no. 195," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.
This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Institute of Oral History at DigitalCommons@UTEP. It has been accepted for inclusion in
Combined Interviews by an authorized administrator of DigitalCommons@UTEP. For more information, please contact [email protected].
AT EL FASO
OFTEXAS
UNIVERSITY
HISTORY
OFORAL
INSTITUTE
INTERVIEldEE:
GasparCordero
IEbIER:
I I{TERV
RichardEstrada
PROJECT:
Bicentennial
-
-
DATEOF INTERVIEIJ:
TERI'{S
OF USE:
TAPE$iO.:
195
{0T.:
T R AN S C R IIP
195
TRAI{SCRIBER:
T e re saJi ma rez
DATETRAI{SCRIBED:F e b r u a r y 6 .
,|976
SYIIOPSIS
OF IIITERViEI{EE:
BIOGRAPHICAL
N a t i v eE l P a s o a n
a n db u s i n e s s m a n .
SU['1|{ARY
OF II,ITERVIEI{:
Bi o g ra p h y;Me xi ca nA mer icansin E l P a s o ;e x p e r i e n c ew
s ith discriminat i o n ; t h e C a s j n oM e x i c a n ion E l Paso;wor k with the M exicanBoundar y
C ommi ssi oann d A S A R Ci n0 Mdxico;S o u t hE l P a s o ;C i u d a dJ u d r e zi n t h e
1 9 2 0s' a n d 1 9 3 0 ' s ;v i e w so n t h e B i c e n t e n n i a l ;f u t u r e o f M e x i c a n
Americans.
1 llq hours.
3 9p a q e s .
CORDERO
on July 3, 1975. The
T hi 's i n te rvi e w i s b e i n g held in El Paso,Texas^
s'ubJectof the i:ntervitewis Mr. Gas'parCordero,of El Paso.
I nterv'iewer
is. Rirhard Estrada.
Mr. Cgrdero,wherewere you born, sir?
C : I ' w a s b o rn i 'n E l P a so .
E: In what year?
C: I'n 1908.
E: C o u l dyo u te l l me so methingaboutyour par ents?
fvly'fathercamefrom Jime'nez,Chfhuahua. W motherwas from a NewMexico
fami'ly, whenNewMexicowas a Mexicanterritory,
before the Mexican-
Arneri'can
hlar.
Whatyear wasyour motherborn in?
Ri'gh.tnow I' couldn' t tel I you.
I ' d h a v et o l o o k u p t h e r e c o r d s , b u t I ' d
s:EJ'about 1885, thereabouts.
l-lowabout your father? Doyou knowm o r eo r l e s s ?
About the samegeneral time,
Did you camefrom a large or a small family?
0 n r y ' m o t h e r ' ss i d e , t h e r e w e r en u m e r o ussi s t e r s . B u t o n m y f a t h e r ' s
s id e , i t w a s a sma l l fa m ily. That I knowof, ther e wer e just four
b r o th e rs a n d si ste rs.
CORDERO
llowabout J/our hrothers and s'isters? t{ow'many'
dtd you have?
I'just
h a v e o n e .b r o t h e r .
E: Is. he s'ti'll ali've?
C: Yes, he i's.
E: Wh:ere
does he reside?
l - l ere si d e s i n E l P a so .
E : C o u l dyo u te l l u s so methingaboutyour fonm ativeyear s her e in E' l Pas o- y o u r g ro w tn gu p , yo u r elementar yschooling, that type of thing?
I 'w a s b o rn i n w h a t w e usedto call SecondW ar d. That' s on Fifth and
S a i n t V ra i n , to b e e xa ct. The fir st school that I went to was a k i nder g a rte n w h i ch w a s l o ca ted near Alam oSchool. ThenI went to the elenentar y
s'choolof Alamo. Thenwe movednorth, and I switchedto SunsetGrammar
S ch o o l , a n d e ve n tu a l l y I endedup in E' l PasoHigh School. It was the
o n l y h i g h s c h o o li n E l P a s oa t t h a t t i m e .
Ab o u tw h a t ye a r d i d yo u star t kinder gar ten?
I ' d s a y a b o u t1 9 1 3 .
T h a t w o u l d b e ri g h t i n the m iddle of the M exicanRevolution. W hatw as the
e th n i c co mp o si 'ti oonf the kinder gar tenclass in your fir st school?
Wew e re a l l Me xi ca nA mer icans.
Whatabout you teachers?
CORNERO
3,
C : T h e yw e re a l 'l A n g l o A m er icans' .
E: hlerethere anf parti:cular authority fi.gures; prr'ncipals or teachers that
y ou re ca l 1 e sp e cr'a l l ywell that had an influence on Jour ' life?
C : Y e s , I ' r e c a l l s s m et e a c h e r si n h i g h s c h o o lt h a t t a d m i r e db a i t i c u l a r l y .
Oneof themwas a mathematicsteacher; her namewas RebeccaGoldstein.
T hb nth e re w a sa Mrs. Fr ankSainer . Thenther e wasan Eng' lish
t e a ch e r b y th e n a meo f JeanieMcFur son
Fr ank, who knewthe English l ang u a g ej u st a b o u t a s w e ll as anybody. Shewas an author otoo.
E: D i d th e se p e o p l ei n fl u ence you in someway?
themas [be:t' ng]ver y capablete ac her s
N o t p a rti cu l a rl y, b u t I do r em ember
who l(newhow to teach..
E: D i d yo u e ve r h a vea n y MexicanAmer icanteacher sat all in high school ?
I r e m e m b ea r n a t i v e o f S p a i n , M r s , A l o n z o .S h et a u g h t S p a n i s h . B u t t h a t ' s
the only one.
I ' s th e re a n y e xp e ri e n cen or set of exper iences,that stick out prom i n e n tl y ri n yo u r mi n d w h ile you wer e gor ' ngto schoo' l? W asther e any thi ng
u n u su a lth a t h a p p e n eidn your schoolyear s?
No, not really.
r vervilr;nq una
s p"e[ti no i z
"*i
Y e s. [T h e rew e re ] n o outstandingevents.
CQRDERO
E: Di:dyou en;'oy.a happl youth.?
C:
Y e s , I ' g U e s : sa b - 3 U n
t orflal.
E: Whatwasyour"father dor'ngwhi'le you were going to school?
C: l'ly fatherW0sworki:ng
at the Elite Confecti'onary. That was an old-time
i'ce creamfactory that was quite famoushere in town in those days. He
pr ocessl' ng,with candymakingand i c e
w a s'th e fo re ma no f ma nufactur ing
creamrnakt:'ng.
E: Wasyour mCIthera hous'ew:i'fe
duri'ng these years?
C: Yes.
E: l t lr. C srd e ro ,d i 'd yi u e ver exper i' ence
any discr tm inationwhile you w er e
goi'nEto school?
C : I wo u l d h a veto sa y'th at a' ll of us exper ience[tfr is] to someeitent, Ves .
So memo reth a n o th e rs. For tunately, I don' t think that I was a vic ti m
of too muchdi'scri'mi'nati
on.
I don' t recal 1 any parti cul ar di sagreeabl
e
t n c i d e n t . B u t I c o u l d s e n s ei t a ' 1 1a r o u n d .
E : C o u l dy o u b e a l i t t l e
m o r es p e c i f i c a s t o h o wi t m a n i f e s t e di t s e l f ?
C : I ' t w a sn 't so me th i n gth a t you could say was anythinghar sh, but it w as
t h e re . Y o uco u l d se n seit in schoolwith your teacher s;you could s ee
i t i 'n th e p l a ce syo u w or kedin cer tain ways. Ne knewit was ther e. I'l l
g i ve yo u a n e xa mp l e . I was in co' l1egeat UTEP;it was then knownas
T e xa s'C o l l e g e
o f Mi n e s. Oneday a gr oupof us M exicanAmer icanstudents - -
CORDERO
t h e r e w e r ea b o u t f i v e o f u s - - w e r ew a l k i n gf r o m o n e b u i l d i n q t o t h e
nexto and the pfofes:ssrwas w'i'thus. Wewere talking awayin Spanish;
t ' lt w E s:n a tu ra l , ta l ki 'n g the old native language. He told us to cu t i t
o q t , t o n o t t a l k S p q n i ' sohn t h e c a m p u st;s t a l k E n g l i s h . T h a t ' s s o r t
of hurni.liati:ng. To rne[that's.] a forrn of preJudice.
E : Dl d yo u r fe l l o w -cl a s'sm ates
feel this way?
C : 0 h , ye s. l tl ea l 'l fe l t em bar r assed,
but ther e was nothing we could do
aDout i't.
E: Do you feel that qost of the professors felt this way?
C : N o.
A s a ma tte r"o f fa ct, I think we had som ever y fine pr ofesso r sat
t h a t ti 'me . A n d I d sn 't think this m anwas r eally consciousof the fac t
that he was b,ei'ngdrl'scriminatory.inhi's remark, becausehe was a very
fi'ne professor. l{e had somegood teachers. I remember
most of them
w'ith affecti'on.
E ' : W h a tki n d o f Jo b s d rl dyou hold in youth, while you wer e going to hi gh
s ch o o?l
I s'ta rti n g w o rki n gw h e nI was eight year s old, after school and dur i ng
vacations.. t workedat the departmentstores downtown.
Whatwouldyou do there?
I started sveepingfloors and washingthe windowsfor a departmentstore
o n Ove rl a n dS tre e t. My uncle used to wor k ther e as a salesm an. Later
I sta rte d to w o rk a t th e Popular . At that time I was about 14 year s ol d.
COR.DERO
I ' u s e dt o m a k e$ 5 . 0 0a W e e k .T h t sw q sa b s u ti n
.|923,'24,'25.
E: Di'dyou knsuMrn.Schwartz?
0 : 0h. yes:.
E : Whatdo you necall about Adolph sthwaitzt
C:
0f course, he tltasthe "0ld Man;" he was the boss.
He was rather a hard
b sss. I'w o u l d sa y th a t he was a ver y har d m anto wor k for .
d ays, i 'f yo u h a d to w sr k extr a time, ther e was' nopay for it.
d id th e w o rk a n d th a t's it.
In th os e
Youj us t
I guessit was a goodexper ience,though:
E: l{bs he a fair employ'er?
C: Yes'. I wou'lds:ays.o.
0f cours'e,vraEes
were very low at that time.
I: don't tht'nk that i't was fai'r to makean employeework three or four
hours.extra ti'me and not pay hlm for it;
that was not fair.
Aside from
that, they were pretty Eoodpeople.
Did everybodywsrk under those circumstances?
Y e s, mo st e ve rb o d y.
No matter what ethnic origin they were?
No ma tte r.
By the way, what kind of people would he employ? Did he employmostly
Mexicans?
Yes. I'wou'ld say that a good60%of the employees
of that store were
qORPRO
Mexi'canA$eri'can.'
E: Wh.qtkind of Jebs wsuld they work at?
C : Ca sh j esr a n d sa l e i rn e nm
, ostly.
E : Y o u rf a t h e r w q s ' i n h i ' s m a t u r ey e a r s ' d u r i n gt h e M e x i c a nR e v o l u t i o n ,w h i c h
l a s'te dfro m a b o u t l g l 0 to 1920. Bid you ever hear him talk about any of
h its e xp e ri 'e n cehs'e re o n the bor der , nelating to this Revolution?
C : T he o n l y th i 'n g I: kn o w 'is that one of the excur sionsthat the r ebel s took
i:nto Ju{nez, and they capturedJufreZ, W father was an employeeof the
g ove rn rn e nnt,a tu ra l l y on the opposing side. Theycaptur edhim and they
were goi'ngto executefti'm. But rqyaunt Franciscaand my mother intervened
w'i'th.Presi'dentMadero,vrhswas.in Ju{rez at that time; after the town had
been secured, he cameinto town.
T ha t mu st h a ve b e e ni n the Spr ing of 19' ll.
I t w a s o n e o f th o seye ans. I think it was the Vr ' lla for ces that took
Juirez.
T h a t ' s ' v e n yi n t e n e s t i n g . C o u l dy o u t e l l m ew h a t k i n d o f j o b y o u r f a t h e r
had for the federal government?
,tteworked a t th e C u stoms
Bui' lding.
I n C i u d a d.ludrezI
Tes', a'longwith other friends that time cameto r eside in El Paso,
f l ee i n g fro m th e R e vo l ution.
8
CORDERO
F.
D oyo u re me mb ethr e p ar ticular natur e of his iob?
C:
No, I don't.
E:
D 'i dyo u e ve r kn o wth e Ar gudlles fr om CiudadJudr ez?
C:
D o c t o rA r g u 61le s ? Y e s .
tr.
D i d y o u e v e r k n o wC a m i l o ?
C:
Y e s , I k n e wC a m j l o .
E:
W h e nd i d y o u m e e th i m ?
C:
W ew e r ef r i n e d s i n a b o u t
' | 9 3 9 ,' 3 0 , r 3 l - - d u r j n g
t h o s ey e a r s . W ew e r e
b o t h m e m b e rosf t h e s o c i a l c l u b h e r e i n E l P a s o ;l 4 e x i c a ns o c i e t y r e p r e s e n t e di n t h i s c l u b . I t w a sc a l l e d t h e C a s i n ol t l e x i c a n o .A t t h a t t i m e
i t w a sl o c a t e do n 0 r e g o nS t r e e t , w h e n eR o d g e r as n d B e l d i n gi s n o w
l o c a t e d . T h a t ' s w h e r ew e h a dt h e c l u b .
W e r et h e r e m a n yo f t h e s e c l u b s i n E l P a s o ?
T h a t w a s t h e p r i n c i p a l s o c i a l c l u b o f t h e t { e x j c a nc o m m u n ' iht ye r e i n
El Paso.
W h a tw a st h e p r i n c i p a l o b i e c t i v eo f t h i s c l u b ? W a sj t i u s t s o c i a l ,
o r d i d i t h a v ec i v i c d u t i e s ?
I t w a sj u s t f,o k e e p t h e f a m i l i e s t h a t c a m ef r o m M 6 x j c o t o g e t h e r a n d
i n c o n t a c t ; /Tt w a V a s o c i a l c l u b .
T h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e nm a n yf a m j l j e s t h a t f l e d t h e R e v o l u t i o n , t h e n .
CORDERO
C : Ver.ywell-knownfanrl'li'es,the hest fami.li'eshere in El Pasobelonged
t o th a t cl u b .
E: Wheredi:d the hest-knownfamili'es i'n El Fasoreside at that time?
C: I wouldsay mos:t0f thern[resided in]
SunsetHeiqhaa.
E : D om a n yo f t h e d e s c e n d a n tsst j l I l i v e t h e r e ?
C : Y e s . B y a l j m e a n st,e a .
o f t h o a ep e o p l e .
In facf, I couldrefer you to sorne
Doyo u kn o wl tr. A ce ve c io?
E: No, sir, I'don't.
C: Hi's [gnqnd] daughterits the present SunQueenof 1975.
E : Couldyou'namesomeother names.?
C : Yes'. Mr. Oscar Cams, whoresides on Hawthorne. Someof the old timers
ar',edead.
D i ' dy o u e v e r k n o wJ . G . H e r n d n d eoi f t h e l l e x i c a nc e n t r a l r a i l w a y s ?
0 - hv,e F yw e l l . M r . H e r n d n d e z s' so n , F e l i p e , i s a g o o df r i e n d o f m i n e .
Couldyou tell me moreabout Camilonig-u'ef
Tes? You say you first met
him in 1929?
About[tnat tr]mel 0f course,he wasolder than I'v{as,so there was.not
muchcontactbetween
us.
H e mu s.th a veb e e na t l e ast thir ty year s older than you.
t0
CORDERO
C : I d o n ' t k n o w ' h o w ' m uocl h
d e r , b u t i t w a s s o m ey e a r s ; e n o u g hto m akea
di'fference so that he belongedto one group and I'helonged to anot her .
I ' w a s" a j u n i p r a t th i t time, and he was a seni' or .
E : ldas,he a friend of your father?
C : I d o n rt b e l i e ves0 , n o .
E : 0 f co u rseh e h a d b e e nCustom Collector
s
at CiudadJua' r ezdur ing the
porfi'ri'ato.
C : 0 h , l th r'n Ryo u 're ta l ki ng abou:!Camilo' sfather .
Jr.
I knewCam iloAr gtel T es ,
T h e rew e re s'o me
m or eAr gUellesI knewat that tim e. 0r . nigihl l ea,
herein El Faso.
E : W a sh e a re l a ti 've o f th ese other people?
C : Ye s. l l e w a s a b ro th e r to Cami
lo' s father , I think.
E: D i'dC a rnoi l Jr. I i ve i n El Faso?
C: Yes, he did.
W he re a b o u its
n E l P a sodid he
' live?
S o me w h eire
n S u n s'eH
t e i ghts, but I don' t r ecall wher e. He was a good
f r i e n d o f th i 's'ma nth a t used to give Spanishclasses. Maybeyou knowhi m - Chivez.
Y e s , I ' v e h e a r do f h i m .
T om6 sC h i ve z. C a mi l oa nd Tomas were in the sameage group, maybeseven
.
GTR.DERO
il
or ei'Eht yeans,o'lder than I was.
E: Did you ever rneetth.eelder Aiqiettesi
C:
No.
E : Youwere goinE to ht':gh.
schoo'lin the early twenties, is that fight?
C:
Yes.. I' was i'n hi'gh s'ch.ooluntil 1928.
E : Wh a td i d yo u d o w h e nyou got out of h' iqhschool?
C : I ' w e n t to th e S ch o o 'lo f M i' nesIUTEP].
E : D i're ctl y o u t o f h tg h school?
C : Y e s . I e n r o l e d i n S e ptember
of 1928.
E: Whatwasyour major,?
ng.
C : Mi'ni'ngengi'neeri
E : l , tl a th
s a t mo st o f th e p eople' sm aior ?
t h a t ' s w h a t i t w a s - - a . m i n i n sgc h o o l .
At that time, yes, because
I t d i ' d n ' t o f f e r a n y o t h e r m a j o r sa t a l l ?
N o , i ' t d i ' d n ' t . I ' r e m e r n b eorr i ' g i ' n a 1 l yt h a t w e h a d o n l y f i v e b u i l d i n g s ,
w l ti chyo
' u ca n sti 'l l d i 'stinguishon the campus,becausethey' r e differ ent
f p o rnth e o th e rs. I'b e l i ve that ther e wer e over 300 studentswhenI w as
t h e re . B y th e w a y, my goodfr iend JosephFr iedkin, Am bassador
Fnie dk i n,
w as a cl a s'sma te
o f mi n e. He and I gr aduatedin 1932in the samemi ni ng c l as s .
CORDERO
12
E : Very'i'nteresti'ng. How'rnany
MexicanAmericanswere attending the School
of Minesat that time?
Out of th.ewltole enrollnent, absut 50.
E : Wouldi't be safe ts s'ay'that these were the MexicanAmericansof the
hi'gh:ers'sciul clas'sesi'n El Faso, with the MexicanAmeri.can
community.
C : Y o umi 'E h tsa y th a t th e y wer e upper r niddleclass. Ther ewer e somefor ei gn
s t ud e n ts, to o , fro m Md x ico.
E : M e xi 'ca nws o u l dco meu p her e to school?
Y e s. I'n fa ct, i 'n su r g r aduatingclass of ' 32, out of 8 gr aduates - - now
t h a t w a s th e w h .o l eg ra d uatingclass of 1g3zwith a m ining degr ee- - 2of
themwere from Mt{xico. Out of the B, five of us were MexicanAmericans.
Did the $choo'lof l4ines'haveany kind of reputation in those years for
mini'ngengineeri'ng?
f th i n k i t d i 'd e n Jo yg o odr eputation becausether e wer e studentshe r e
f r om se ve ra l p l a ce s. T her ewas one fr om the philippines, sever al lwer e
f r oml Mri xtco ;so f,w o u l d say that it had a fair r eputation.
Do you remember
what states in the interior these Mexicanstudents were
frsm?
No' nst from what states.
M exi coC i ty.
f rom.
But one of themhad beena mlTltary studerit fn
On ew a s from Sonor a. I don' t knowwhenethe other one w as
l3
CORDERO
of the moreprominentAnglo Americanshere in El
E : Di:dyou ever knsw.any.
Fass during these.yeqrg'. For i'ns.tanqe*di'd J/oue$er knowTomLea?
C: $'dtdn't
Rnow.
hiF well, but we went ts h.tlghschsol together.
E: h la sth i s T o mL e a , Jr.?
C : Y e s, th e a rti 'st.
t{e w er e not in the sam eclass, but we wer e in hi gh
s"choslat about the sametime.
E : Did you ever meet his father?
T o mL e a ? N o , I didn' t.
C : Ma ;mr.
E : Wh e nyo u g o t o u t o f th e Schoolof M inesin 1932,what did you do, s i r ?
C : 0 f co u rse ,S o u w su l d n 't r ecall the Depr ession;you wer en' t bor n ye t.
T h a t w a s.th e h e i 'g h to f the big Depr ession. I had a sheepskinthat s ai d
r f S c i e n c ei n M i n i n gE n g i e n e e r i n g .M y f i r s t i o b
that I'was a Bacheloo
w a sw i 'th a p i cR a n d sh ovelwith the W PA. Ybu' vehear dabout the WPA?
E: Ye s, th e Wo rksP ro g re ssAdm inistr ation.
C: Yes.
H o wa b o u tyo u r fe l l o w 9r aduates? W hatkind of wor k did they do?
C : Ab o u tth e sa me . [n fa ct, on either side of m e at that tim e wer e doc tor s ,
with year s of exper ience,wie' ldinga pick and s hov el
l aq ye rs, a n d e n g i 'n e e rs
E : Whatkind of wsrk wouldyou do with the tdPA?Wheredid you work?
CORDERO
C:
14
0 n d i f f e r e n t r o a d s , l i k e S c e n i cD r i v e ; a n d a r o u n dt h e S c h o o lo f M i n e s ,
b u i l d i n g t h e r o a da n dt h e o l d s t a d i u m .
E : Wh a tki n d o f w a g e sd i d y ou get?
C: Thirty dollars a month.
E : l ^l a si t a d e q u a te ?
C : At th a t ti me , i t w a s ver y adequate.
E : D i d yo u h a vea fa mi 'l yyet?
C: No.
I w a s n l tm a m r " eyde t .
E: H owo l d w e reyo u ?
C ; T w e n ty-fo u r.
E; H owl o n g d i d yo u w o rk with the W pA?
C ; Ab o u tsi x mo n th s,ma yb emor e. Thena goodfr iend of m ine, Alejandr o
L o p e zow h ow a sa me mb er
of one of the m or epr ominentfam ilies her e, got
' ! nea i o b w rl thth e Me xi canBoundar y
Comr n' ission.
Thel4exicanCom m is s i oner
a t th a t ti me , Mr. A rmando
SantaCr uz, wasm ar r ied to ltipez' s] aunt;
a n d th ro u g hth a t i n fl u e nce, I got a job with the M exicanBoundar Com
y
m i s s i on.
I ju mp e dfro m l a b o re r--getting thir ty dollar s a month- - toan engin eer - m a ki .n a
g h u n d re da n d e i qhty- five dollar s a monthover night.
f;
W o u l dyo u ch a ra cte ri zethis as extr aor dinar y?
Extra o rd i n a ry,ye s. I wasm akingmor e ihahthe bank pr esidentof E l pas o
15
CORDERO
[ N a ti o n a l B a n k], w h o e verit was at that tim e. This was the height
of the Depresstlon,
mind you. Everybodywas brokel
E: I-tow
did you fee'l about this move? Whatwere your thoughts?
C ; 0 h., I th o u g h t i t w a sa mir acle! And to me it was ver y good, becau s e
I sta rte d to g e t e xp e riencein the line of wor k I studied for .
I
w orke dth re e ye a rs fo r the MexicanBoundar Comm
y
ission.That wasa
v e ry, ve ry h a p p yti me for me, becausethe contacts [and] the fr iend s hi p
tlrat I made there were somethingI remember
with a great deal of
a ffe ctrl o n .
E : N ameso meMe xi ca n sth a t you met.
C : Mr, A rma n dS
o a n taC ru zwas then the comm issioner .Ingenier oAmor,
I-'ngeniero
Fernfndez MacGregor,
Vicente Rubjo,
R u b i osti l l
By the way, Vicente
w o rksfo r the Boundar Comm
y
ission.
Wfrereare the headquartersof the BoundaryCommission?
C ; T h e ya re a t th e p o rti o n of land that was tr aded whenthe Cham izal[ w as ]
4 g re e du p o n . A s yo u cross the fr ee br idge, over ther e by PR0NAFit's
,
o ve r o n ttL ero a d to th e left, and follows downthe r iver .
The buildi nqs
Are i n th a t a re a . It u sed to be downtown.
E: S o yo u w o rke dth e re fo r two year s, mdkinga hundr edand eighty dollar s
a m o n th .
C;
A h u n d re da n d e 'i g h t-fi ve: |eS.
l6
CORDERO
E : W e reyo u I i .vrl n gw i th yo ur par entsat th' is tim e?
C : Ye s, I w a s sttl l
l i vi 'n g wr lthm y m othen,
E: W h a tw a syo u r b ro th e r d oing at this tim e?
c:
M y b ro th e r w a sw o rki n gi n M dxicocity at that tim e. He had a j o b with
t h e Me xi ca nIrri g a tfo n com m ission.Thenhe came back and h e g o t a j o b w i t h
t h e B o u n d a ryC o mmi ssi on,
too, after I left.
[;
At th e sa mesa l a ry?
C : I d o n r t k n o w ;m o r eo r l e s s , I w o u l ds a i d .
E:
I s yo u r b ro th e r o l d e r o r youngerthan you?
C ; H ers fo u r ye a rs yo u n g e r.
A f t e r y o u i i n i s h e o w o r k i n qf o r t h e B o u n d a rc. yo m n i s s i o nl ,v h a td i d . y o ud o ?
I n 1 9 3 5 ,t h e r e w a sa p o ] i t i c a ' l c h a n g ei n M d x i c o ,a n d w e k n e wt h a t M r .
S a n t ac r u z w a sg o i n g t o b e n e p l a c e d . I k n e wt h a t I w o u l dp o s s i b ' l yb e
out of a iob; so I got a job with AmericaS
n m e l t i n ga n d R e f i n i n gC o m p a n y
i n S a nL u i s P o to s.f, Md xico. I star ted to wor k for themin Septem ber
of
.|935.
T h a t ' s w h e nI q o t m a r r i e d .
Whaneis your wife from?
F r o mE l P a so .
W ha ti s h e r fa mi l yrs b a ckgr ound?
l7
CORDERO
C : H e r f a m i l y r s n a m ei s T a l b o t .
E : S h e l sa n A n g l o ?
C : H e r f a t h e r w a sa n A m e r i c a no, r i g i n a l l y f r o m M a s s a c h u s e t t s[.H i s f a m i l y ]
settled in Georgetown,
Texas. Her father mamied a Mexicanwoman,so fmy
w i . f e ] i s h a lf I i e x i c a na n d h a lf A n qol .
E: D id yo u me e th e r h e re i n El Paso?
C: Yes.
E; D id h e r fa mi l y movedownhere?
C l Ye s, 6 q p fa th e r mo ve dfrom Geor getown,
Texas,to El Paso.
W h a tw a s th e n a tu re o f his bus' iness?
I th i n k h e w o rke dfo r the City, but I don' t knowwhat kind of a job he had.
E.E'So you
t,o
L u i s P o t o s fi n I 9 3 5 ?
Yes.
D oy o u r e c a l l i f t h e G u g g e n h e si m
dSARCO?
t i lsl o w n eA
Ci Yes,they did at that time.
E.i Di.dyou ever neet any of the Guggenheims?
Cg No, I di.dn't.
WEre.
any of themeVerpresenton the property?
t8
CORDERO
C: No. They never wene.
E: Did they work out of NewYork City?
C: Yes.
E : T e l l me so me th i n ga b o u t the pay scales. W er ethe AngloAmer icanem pl oy ees
a n d t h e M e x i c a ne m p l o y e epsa i d t h e s a m ej t t h e y O j Ot n e s a m ej o b ?
c:
T h a t's a n o th e rth i n g .
I went to wor k for Amer icansmelting for a
h u n d re da n d tw e n ty-fi ve dollar s a m onthas a junior eng' ineer . I wor k ed
tvttoyears for them in San Luis poto5r', and then changedto another company.
B u t w h e nI q u i t th e ma fter
two yeans, I was getting two hundr ed[d ol 1ar s
a mo n th ]. T h e i r w a g escales wer e not the sam e. The Amer icanengineer s
g o t a I i ttl e b i 't mo re :
f:
T h i s l e a d s me to w h a t h as alwaysbeenan inter esting point to m eoM r .
C ord e ro . D u ri n gth e ti m e you wer e gr owingup in El Paso,and dur ing the
t i m e yo u w e re i n Md xi cowor kingfor an Am er icanCompany
did the Angl os
p e rce i vea n y d i ffe re n ce betweena M exicanAm er icanand a M exican?
C i Y e g . W e - - l i k em y s e l f , d g r a d u a t eo f a n A m e r i c a n
s b h o o la n d h a v i n gl i v e d
h e re , a n d b e i n g a n A me r icancitizen- - wer e better r eceivedthan a n ati v e
M e xi ca ne n g i n e e rw o rki n gfor themin Nexico.
E: A n dye t, d o yo u th i n k that you, a s a M e x i c a nA m e r i c a nw
, e r ed i s c r i m i n a t e d
a g ai n st w h tl e yo u w e rewor kingdownther e?
('"
T L L e re
w a s a l i ttl e
d i ffe rence betweenthe AngloAm er icanengineera nd the
Ivlexi.can
Americanengrineer,as far as preferenceis concerned.
19
CORDERO
E:
t'lhatabout pay scales?
C:
l{e11, they got the best jobs, of course.
E : F o r i n sta n ce , i f th e re v{ er ean Anglo and a M exicanAmer icanwor kingat
the samejob, would they get the samewages?
C : I n m o n yi n s t a n c e s ,t h e y d i d n o t .
E : T he Me xi ca nA me ri ca nw ouldget a lesser wage?
C: Yes.
E : W o u l dth e re b e a n y d i ffe rence if, for instance, ther e wer e an Anglo
Ame ri ca n oa Me xi ca nA m er ican,and a Mexicannational wor kingat
m o reo r l e ss th e sa mej ob? W ouldther e be thr ee differ ent scales?
C : W e l l , t h e r e w o u l db e a t l e a s t t w o .
Did you ever knowof any case wherethere were three scales?
No, I really don't.
l { o ww o u l dyo u ch a ra cte r izeyour r elationship with ASARC0
in SanLui s
Po to si?
Ve ry g o o d . Wew e re ve ry well ieceived. [^Iewer e given a housein th e
s t a ff co mp o u n dyo
, u mr'ghtcall it, wher ethe staff lived.
fThey] wer e
t h e p re fe ra b l e h o u se s. That' s wher ethe super intendent,mine
a n d t h e e n g i n e e r sl i v e d .
I c a n ' t c o m p l a i na b o u tt h a t .
W e n toth e y re ce i ve du s quite well.
fo r em an,
E v e r y w h e rwee
20
CORDTRO
E:
Yo u sa i d th a t a co u p 'l eof year s befor e you had beenwor king in Ciu dad
J u a re z,fi a k.i .nag h u n d redand er lghty- fr lvedollar s a month. Downin
Sa nL u i s P o to si i *,
w er em akinga hundr edand twenty- five dollar s a
t R o n t hw i t h . { S A R CaOt t h e b e g i n n i n g . H o wd i d y o u f i n d l i v i n g i n S a nL u i s
Po to si i n re g a rd to th e cost of 1iving?
CI
0 h, mu chch e a p e r! E ve rythingwasmuchcheaperthan ther e. Now,yo u
n u st re a l i ze th a t w e a l s o had a r ent- fr ee house,and peopleto do y our
y a r d w o r ka n d t h i n g s l i k e t h a t .
[ W eh a d ] f r e e f u e l , f r e e f a c i t i t i e i .
S o t h a t c o u n t e d . B u t t h e c o s t o f l i v i n q i n S a nL u i s P o t o s f a t t h a t t i m e
Uas very, very low. Foodwas very, very cheap.
W pu l dyo u sa y th a t w i th the fainge benefits,that the wagethat you r ec ei v ed
up here on the border and the one you had downthere were almost on a
Pqri.tY?
w o u l ds a y t h a t t h e y w e r ea t l e a s t e q u a 1 ,i f n o t a t i t t t e
befter.
E: Whatwas the company
you movedto after ASARC0?
C : T f r eP o to si 'Mi n i n gC o rn Pany:
It{honan that company?
C:
I t w a sa n A me ri ca nCompany
headquarteredin S e a t t l e , W a s h i n g t o nc ,a l l e d
the
Mining Corrpany.
hlhydid you makethe move?
C:
I d i . d n ' t t h t n k I w a s g etting aheadfast enough. A very good friend of
CORDERO
21
mine whohad graduatedwith fie--ohe of ry classmates--was
then working
/
in Chihuahua. That wasmy part of it.
for^ Potosi Company
So we
d ectd e dto mo ven o rth . Also it was close to the bor der , and you get us ed
t o w h e re ve yo
r u tve l i ve d for so manyyear s.
E : Y o um e a ht h e f r o t o i f i ' l i n j n gC o m p a nwya Sb a S e di n C h i h u a h u a ?
C : T h em i n ew a s a b o u tl 5 m i l e s o u t s i d e o f C h i h u a h u[aC i t y ] .
I t w a sc a l l e d
s a n t a E u l a l i a . [ I t w a s ] a , v e r y f a m o u so l d m i n i n gc a m p . I t w a sr e a l l y
d i sco ve i e d b y th e S p a niar ds.
E : W tra w
t a s th e ma i n o re ?
C r L e a da n d 7 i n c.
E ; W h a tw a syo u r p a rti cu l a r job?
I w a sa n e n g i n e e r .
E : Yo umu st h a ven o ti ce d the conditr ' onsof the M ex' ican
miner s that wofk ed
t f Le re . D oyo u re ca l l h owm uchthey wer e being paid back in those d ay s ?
I' can't recall.
By todayl standardsn
it's
a very
'low
wage. It was
h a rd w o rk fo r th e m'r'n er - - though
the one that' s digging out the or e and doi ng
t h e l a b o r. T h a t's ve ry handwor k.
htould they cormutefrorn CiudadChithuahua
r or was there a campwhere they
'lived?
N o , t h e r e w q s " a ' l i t t ' l e v i ' l 1 a g en e a r b y ' - S a n tE
a u l a l i a ; a n d t h e m i n ew a sj u s t
22
CORDERO
o u t s ' i d eo f S q n t aE u l a l i a a b o u ta n i t e .
E: W.hatyear"s:were yqu working there?
C: I'wotlted thtre frorn
'|937
to 1946, whenthe war ended.
E: Youworkedthere qui'te a while.
C: Absut n'i'neyears.
E : L e t ' s E o b a c kt.o a h o u t1 9 ? 8 , ' 2 9 , ' 3 0 , t h e r e a b o u t s .D oy o u r e c a l l e v e r
heari:ng anyth.i:nS
about the Cristero Rebellion in Mdxico?
Yes. I had no di'rect experi'encewith them; we just used to read about
th.em. llowever,my brother got ssmewhat
i'nvolveddownthere in the state
o f Ja l i 'sco . l {Ew a sw o rkingfor the lr r igation Com m ission,
and he h ad to go
do s'omeft'eld worR--I thi'nk he was doi'ngsofie s^urveyi:ng.Jalisco was the
h.stbedof the Chster.os".Theywere anti-government,definitely.
He [my
Drother] wdnt thrsugh somevery tick'lish times downthere with them. In
fact, th.eyhad to cal'l out the Armysomettmes
to protect these surveying
crews, becausethey were always in danger oT getting shot.
E : D i d yo u r b ro th e r e ve r talk to you about the conflicts that ar ose betw een
the pegple and the government
over there?
C: Yes'. lle us'edts tel'l me about what he went through downthere.
He would
he moreacq'uai'nted
w'i"ththat than I'wsuld, cause he had someexperiences
downth:ere w.i'th the Fisteros.
C: Yourbi"othersti:ll li'ves i'n El Paso?
CORDERO
23
C: Yes.. l:teI ilves at 3000por.ten. He qlss worRed
for the Boundary
Commission
wh,enI. I ef t.
F: So, you were.at S q n taE Ulaliq'ti' ]l about 19- 46. W hatdid you do the n, s i r ?
C : I ' q u i 't mi 'n i n ga l l to g e ther , cam eback to El Faso, and star ted in the
h.ome
bui{ding business.
l{hy dtd you quit mi'ning?
I ' di d n ''t b e l i e ve th a t vvewer e being pai' d enoughmoneyfor our ser vi c es
at that time. Nott, th.ings did changeconsiderablywhenthe Mexican
government
sot't of nati'onalizedthe mini'nEtndustry and required that
pefsorne'li'n the companies
all management
would henceforthbe Mexican;
th.enthe sttuation changedconsiderab'ly. So someof these fel'lows that
I knewth.at were contemporary
with me are nowdirectors of big mining
o p e ra ti 'o n s'i 'nMd xi co . They' r emakinganyur herfreom $50,000to $80 ,000a
year.
Doyou regret h.avi'ng
Eotten out?
l l l el l , h i n d si g h t, o f co ur se, is better than for esight. NobodyeVer for es aw
t h a t t h j s i i t u a t i o n r , v o u ladr i S e . I f i t h a d n ' t a i - i S e n ,t h e y w o t l d s t i l l
wofkfh$ downthere for
be
fiiajrbe-UT;Su0
ilrnonth or somethinglike that.
Yo ume n ti 'o n enda tt'o n a l i zationor expr oppr ' Sion.Youwer e in SantaEul al i a
'|938,
in
i's that ri'ght?
Men the petroleumexprom+tioncameabout? No. The petro'leumexpropri.ation
cqneaboutwhenI' wasrsti"l'l workingin Ju#ez in the BoundaryCornmi
ssi on.
CORDIRO
E : T h a trs ri g h t.
24
Wh a tw e re the sentim ents[ttr at] wer e being expr ess edher e
on th.e border whenthat took place?
C : 0 f co u rse , A me ri ca nse ntimentswer edefinr itely anti- Car denas,par tic ul ar l y
t h e o r" l co mp a n i e s.A n dyou can see why. Theyr esented[that.]
E : D id yo u e ve r h e a r o i l m enher e in El pasotalk about that?
C:
N o, b e ca u seI w a s n o t a c quaintedwith any oil m en;but whatyou r ea d
a b o u t i n th e p a p e rsw a s defilnitely anti- M exicangover nment.
E : w ha t w e re th e se n ti me ntsof the Juar enseswhenthis cam eabout?
C:
0 f co u rse , th e se n ti me ntsin M 6xicower e all for C{ r denas.
E : W asth i s p a rti cu l a r'l y tr ue in Juaiez?
I b e l j e v es o r ! e s .
F.
W ha td i d yo u r i rn i i e d 'i a tfsupeniorat
s the Boundar Com
y
haVeto s ay
r ,r issjon
a b o u ti t ?
T h e yth o u g h t i t w a sa g oodmove. In fact as a gener a' rl ule all the
p e o p l ew e re fo r i t.
I remember
that spontaneously
they wouldtur n i n
c o l l e c t i o n s o f m o n e ya n d g o l d r i n g s and jewelry to the government
to he1p
p a;rfo r th e re p a ra ti o n s, to help pay the pr oper ties.
F.
W o u l dt h i s g o o n i n J u i r e z ?
C:
I s a wt h a t i n J u i r e z .
T h e yw o u l da ctu a l l y q i ve someof their per sonaljewelr y?
CORDERO
25
C: Yes.
F.
This is very interesting. t) bviouslyth' is s t i r r e d u p a 1 o t o f n a t i o n a l i s m
a n dp a t r i o t i s m .
C: That's correct.
E; So you say that they were ver y happyabout it?
C: Yes.
E : C a r d e n am
s u s th a veb e e nver y popular .
I th i n k [th e ] b e st th i ng cJr denasever did for Mdxicowas to say, ,,T hi s
i s o u r re so u rce . l n l eca n' t have it squander ed
any m or eand taken som ew her e
e l s e ."
M r . C o r d e r o v, ^ / h i l ye o u w e r ew o r k i n gi n t h e m i n i n g c o r , n r u n i t i e si n M d x i c o ,
d i d y o u e v e r s e e a n y e v i d e n c eo f s o c i a li s t a c t i v i t y o r l a b o r o r g a n iz i n g ?
y e s . 0 f c o u r s e ,l a b o r o r g a n i z i n gh a d b e e ng o i n g
o n e v e nb e f o r e t h a t , a n d
t h e re w a s
q u i te a fe rmentin the labor m ovement
in Mdxico,just the
s a mea s i t w a s i n th e U nited States. Som epr om inentfigur es at tha t ti m e- L o mb a rgToo l e ra n oa n d p eop' lelike that whower e involved in the labor
m o v e m e n t - - w ec r e
i t i c i z e d o f b e i n g c o m m u n i so tr i e n t e d . A c t u a l 1 y ,I d o n , t
t h in k th e y w e re i th e y w er e just labor or iented.
D i d a n y o f t h e s e p e o p l ee v e r v i s i t t h e m i n i n ga r e a s i n M d x i c o ?
T h e l a b o r l e a d e r sc o n s t a n t l yv i s i t e d t h e d i f f e r e n t sections of the c ountr y
t o t a l k t o l a b o r a n d g e t t h e mo r g a n i z e d .
26
CORDLRO
F.
Did you ever see any propaganda
or hearof any pr opaganda
in Melxic o
emanating
from the Socialist Movement
in the United States?
C: No, I didn't '
E : So you cameback to El Pasoi n
.|946
t o w o r k i n t h e h o m eb u i l d i n g i n d u s t r y .
Howdid you get started?
C : A c t u a l l y , a f n i e n d o f m i n e t h a t h a d g o n et o s c h o o lw i t h m e - - E m i l i oP e i n a d o - [and I] were hoth o u t of a job for the sam er eason.
E : W h i chw. a s?
c:
w e h a d q u i t t h e m i n i n gb u s i n e s s . s o w e m e t h e r e , b e i n g o u t o f j o b .
we
s ta rte d to th i n k a b o u t what we wer e going to do, lr lethoughtabout
l e a s i n g t h e o l d D u d l e yQ u a m yf r o m M r s . D u d l e y ;w e t h o u g h ta b o u tm a k i n g
s o m ec o n c r e t eb l o c k s , f o r b u i l d i n g p u r p o s e sai n d w e f i n a l l y d e c i d e do n
t h e i d e a o f b u i l d i n g h o u s e s . W ed i d n ' t h a v em u c hc a p i t a l - - w ed i d n ' t h a v e
any.
W a si t a p a rtn e rsh i pth at you had?
Yes.
S o y o u d e c i d e dt o g o i n t o t h e h o m e b u i l d i nbgu s i n e s sw i t h M r . p e i n a d o ?
Y e s , a n d h i s b r o t h e r s . T h e yo p e r a t e da f i l l i n g s t a t i o n a t t h a t t i m e ,
c a l l e d t h e A a n dA F i l l i n g S t a t i o n . S o w e p u t u p $ 3 , 0 0 0a p i e c e - - $ ] 2 , 0 0 0
c ap i ta 'l -ta n do rg a n i ze dthe l{ om eConstr uctionCompany.
A v e ry b a si c so u n d i n gn ame!
CORDERO
C:
27
v e q ve ry b a si c! [L a u ghter ] Nothingor igina' l dbout the nam el So w e
s ta rte d b u i l d i n g tw o h ouseson For t Boulevar d. Befor e they wer e fini s hed,
I d e ci d e dl rd b e tte r g o in businessfor m yse' lf,so I br oke up the
partnership wi.tn them. I went on my ownjtheycontinued.with the company.
0 f co u rse , th e y ma d ever y goodat it.
F.
We reth e re ma n yo th e r MexicanAmer icanbusinessm en
in this kind of ehter prise at that time?
I n h o m eb u i l d i n g ? N o . I n f a c t , a f t e r I l e f t , t h e y b o u g h ts o m ea c r e a g e
t o d e v e l o pi t - - a h o u s i n gd e v e l o p m e n
t l l e d A l t a m i r a . Y o us t i l l
ca
little
seethe
o l d h o u s e su p t h e r e o n T r o w b r i d g ae n d M o n t a n a - - o l do, l d p l a s t e r e d
h o u s e s ,S p a n i s hs t y 1 e . I b e l i e v e , t h a t w a st h e f i r s t h o u s i n gp r o j e c t a t
t h a t t i m e - - m o d e rhno u s i n gi n E 1 p a s o .
W o u l dyo u ch a ra cte ri zethe fir m that you and Mr . Peinadower e invol v ed
i n a s th e fi rst l t4 e xi can
Amer icanhousingconstr uctioncompany
in E l pas o?
l l J e 1 1i ,f n o t t h e f i r s t ,
i t w a ss u r e o n e o f t h e f i r s t .
[This was]right
a fte r th e l ^ Ia r--]9 4 6 --and
housingwas in gr eat demand.Nobodyhad ev er
g o n ei n t o h o u s i n go n a r e a l l y l a r g e s c a l e l i k e a b i g s u b - d i v i s i o n - - l i k e
b u y i n ga h u n d r e da c r e s a n d s u b - d i v i d i n gi t i n t o l o t s .
A l t a m i r as u b - d i v i s i o nw a st h e f i s r t o n e i n E l p a s o .
Didyou take part in this?
N o . I w a s a 1re a d y o u t of the company.
l , ' lh eyo
n u l e ft th i s p a rtner ship,what did you go to do?
I believethat
ZB
CORDERO
C: Fon a tine I went back i'nto mi'nipgfor m:rs,e]f. A friend of mine got a
prospect in Ch.i.huahua,
h"oldof a li.ttJe. {nanganese
ahd at that time the
wqs buyi.ngmangqnese.Sa we thought there might be
AmericqnSovqrnment
s€mefioney'in tltat, b.ut there wasn''t. So I got back into the homebuilding
hus'i'nessagai:n.
E: M.enyou were i'n Cht'h.uahua
in about 195CI,did you ever meet any of the
s:tate:auth.ori'ti'esdownthere--perhaps'the Governoror anything like that?
C: No. The only go\rernorthat I' knewwas Borunda;but he was Governorafter
1950. I had knownh.in in Jua'rezwhenhe was Mayorof JuJrez.
S' oyo u ca meb a ck to E l Fasoin
1i'ttle bi't.
.|950?
Let' s go off this subject for a
Nhat wenethe MexicanAmericanand Anglo Americanrelations
l i ke i :n th e ye a rs 1 9 4 5 -1950?How.would
you char acter izeit?
C: Flerein El Pass, the,ywere good.
E: To what do you attri'bute thfs?
C : P e rh g p sto th e ve ry.l a rge MexicanAm er icanpopulation. I don' t kno w
w he th e rth a t w o u l d h a veanything to do with or not, but we did havegood
r e l a t i o n s ' h i ' p s .[ t n a t ' s i n ] m y c a s e , n o w . P e r h a p sI ' v e b e e np a r t i c u l a r l y
f o r tu n a te i n a l l th i 's, but I' never exper ienceda- gr "eatam ountof d- j s c ai tT ti n ati 'o n . I co u l d s'e ei 't, yes' ; I' could sensett whenI wasyoungand I s aw
i t fi 'rs't h ? n d . B u t I'w asn' t r eally too m uchaffected by it.
E: Wsuldyou s.ay.thi's was'true bilmosf oT vo* frientsl
C: Yes, fiss.t of rly friends.
CORDERO
29
E : Di'dyou ever travel to $outh.,
El Fasoi'n those days? Di.dyou ever become
faniil i'ar wi'tt\ it?
I was,brcrnin South.E] Faso. That was the SecondWard.
E: Whatstreets were tltese?
C: Southof San Antoni'owas'the SecondWard.
E : T el 'l u s so me th i n E
a b o u t gr owingup in Ssuth El Faso. W er ether e gangs ?
C : N o t l i k e y o u w o u l dc h a r a c t e r i z et h e mt o d a y , n o . [ l t w a s ] j u s t l i k e k i d s
g etti 'n g to g e th .e r,a n d one guy going up against another , but r eal' ly nothi ng
vict'ous'. Mayb'e
rock thrswi'ngand things like that--nobodyever got hit.
E : D oJo u re e a 'l l a xJ i l l e g al activifieiz
Cl No, I 4on't j'ecsll-, whenI was a youngbgy qr y o u n gm a n ,a n y b i g a c t o f
v a n d a l i s mt,o o m u c hc r i m e , o r d r u g a d d i c t i o n .
E : Yo ud o n 't th i n k d ru g swer e on the str eet? I' t w a s n ' t p r e v a l e n t ?
C : 0 h , n o ! E ve ry'ki 'dl (n e r rthat dr ugsv{ er esom ethingto be avoided. It w as
a ta h o o th i 'n g , a b so 'l u tely. Nobodydar ed to even sm okemar ijuanaci gar ettes
r n u chl e. ss u se th e h a rd dr ugs!
E: t,tlasthi's true throughoutthe ti'meyou lived in El Pasoup until about
.|950?
Y e s, u p u n ti l th e g re a t bfor ldW ar . Dur ing the last twentyyear s is w heni t
r e a 1 1 y ' c a muep . ! { e d i ' d n ' t h a v et h a t a t a l l .
D o yo u th i 'n k mo st o f th e fami' lies that lived in SouthEl Pasoat that ti m e
w e re fa i 'rl y sta b l e fa milies?
30
CORDERO
C: Yes:,th-ey'were..[Th.ey.were.]
fefiijy sri'ented, par.ticularly the Mexican
qlwayg been th.at wa;1. A great anCIuntof stability.
ffie.rnipans;.TheJl''.Ve.
FAfiiliersrs"tqclttogethier.end helped each oth.er. Ki'ds had great respect
forn thieiv pqrentg and thEi'r elders..
E : T e l l n e a h o u t Oi u d a dJu{ r ez dur ing the ear ' ly 30' s or late 20' s. What
d o yo u re ca l l msst a h sut conditions'in Ci' udadJudr ez?
C: Juf,rezat that tirnewas.avery liveTy place. It wasa nuchbettef Citv
t h a n i t i s t o d a y . I n J u d r e z ,t o o , t h e r e w a sd e f i n i t e l y a n u o p e rr ; r i d d l e
c l a s's'a t th a t ti me . t remember
the ver y fam ousplaces in Juir ez- - l i k e
the Central Cafd, the 01d Tivolr'. All the famouscabarets and cafds
a t th a t ti me w e re sn th e l6th of Septem berlr, ' ke the Big Kid, The Mi nt,
C en tra l C a fd , T h e A ri zona, and all those places.
Ther ewas a sort of
a n a 'tmo s'p h eare
b o u t Ju i rez then; it had a lot of flavor ' like being a s or t
of cosmopo'l
i'tan pl ace.
E : I ' te rei h e i e a I o t o f v j s i tor s i n th: ci ly at that tir ne?
C:
0h, yesI
Lots,of touri'sts .
Wa sth e re mo revi ce th an ther e is n o w ? T h i n g sl i k e p r o s t i t u t i o n ?
I d o n 't th tn k th e re w a s as muchas there is today.
r ns alongThe I jne5 oT the cabaFets
Sp me s:to f th e e n te rta inr nent
Eati ng
p'laces, th.at ki:ndof thing?
casfnos.ithe rac6at the o'ld racetrack; Polo Games
at
Righ.t. Gambli:nE
th-e hlaterfi..lI 0ardens I rememberthose veny well .
They wer equite an
3l
CORDERO
event. In fqct" two {tends:of ,milne
at th.agtilte wereDoctorMonthoff
qnd OoetenGqgdu{.iyr
of the ffReri'can
polo team
fandJ tlt.eywerernerlbers
that rrse.dto go qvqr the.reand p:tay.agqi:nst
the fulexican
teamsevery
$nday. I't wqsquite an event. ftt wasJgay, andJuf,rezwasreal'ly
a niue placethen.
you chanacteri^ze
E : Hbw'weuld
relations between
CiudadJudrezand El Pasoat
that tirne?
C : Very'Eood.
E : lJour
wouldyou compane
themwtth relattons today?
T h e y ' r es ' t i ' l l v e r y g o o d , t b e ' l i e v e . S o n e t i m etsh e r e ' s a l i t t l e
friction
b u t a l l i n a l l I : t h . i n kt h a t w e h a v eg o o dr e l a t i o n s h i p s .
You were grow'ingup here in El Fasodur ing the EscobarRevolt. Ooy oJ
refterRber
anythi'ngabout that?
The EscobanRevoluti'onwas in 1929" ' I nemember
somethingabout it, what
I used to read i'n the papers,,but I' can' t r eca' ll too m uch.
D oyo u e ve r re ca l l i t m anifestingitself in CiudadJya/r ez?Do you
e Ve r re ca l l a n y e ve n ts that took p' lacer elating tO the Fevolutioni n
,lsa'rezt
C : Ye s. On ep a rti 'cu l a r e v ent com esto mind. Theyhad a battle in Ju i r ez .
E: Do you actual'ly remember
that?
C: Yes',becaus'e
a friend sf mine flandf l - - C o l . B i l l B a r t l e t t , a l s o a s c h o o l
3?
CORDERO
qere s:ti.'l'li'n mi'ni'ngschoolqnd Wgsneqkedacrossthe
mqteof fitine=.="
rivqr. dur"ingthe b-attle. l{e could seEth.eshoot{'ngout there in the
s:tree,tsb-etween
thE rehel forces and the goyenmenf
forces. Weactually
sawsoldiers b},ings:hotand somerebels beings.hot.
E: Whre,didyoq sneak acros.s.?
C: t{el] , we just walkedacros'sthe ri'ver at Stanton Street.
E: You Jus't went across.the bridqei
C : Ye s. t{e w E l h e da l 'l a roundthe 16th of Septem ber.
hlewere dodging
anoUndfrom door'=to=^d0or,
Watchfngall this; and ther e was a quite a l o t !
E : Y o uc o u l d h a v eg o t t e n k i l l e d !
C : Yes:!
Di'dyou see anyonekil'led?
ldesaw'sometwo or thnee rebels laying out there i,n the street.
Andyou
c o u l d h e a r th e s.h o sti nEgoing on.
l l owd i d th e p p l e o f th e city fee' l about this r ebellr ion?
I do n 't re ca l l w h a t th e attitude was in JuJr ez at that tfm e. 0f co ur s e
you know'it was squas-hed
pretty qUickly.
Dtd any of the s-h.otsstray across the ri'ver?
I ttti n k th e y d i 'd . Ma ybel' ve got my r evo' lutionsmixedup, but I r e c al ]
t h at a t sn e ti 'rn eF t. B l iss called out a detachm ent
and set up a can onup
COROERO
33
here on higtt tit"ound="=.1
think i't was:on ['1t. Frankl'tnar Rim Road---because
cqnonshets:were reaclli:ngtnto El Faso. Nottt don't knowif that was the
Escobar.
revolution or if that wes befqre.
E:
I.t rls for certai,n thqt in lglg Fanch.o
Villa atLackedCiudad Ju{rez, and
there were Afrneni'can
soldiers that actually crossedthe bridge.
th:at's th.e one I''m [tfri'nt<ingabout].
C: Fer.haps
about that battle?
F: That' s' very i'nterestr'nE. Whatelse do you remember
Wereany'of the ctlvi'li'ans taking par t i' n i' t?
C: No.
E : J u st re b e 'l sa n d ssl d i 'e ns?
C: YEs.
tr.
L e tr's g o b a ck to E l F a soin 1950,whenyou camebackand star ted an other
E o a t b u si n e ss. Wh a td id you do then?
C : t sta tte d to b u i l d so mehom es.
E : h l asth i s a o n e -ma o
n p e r ation?
C: Yes.
E: l{ho helpedyou build these homes?
C : I ' h i re d su b -co n tra cto r sto do ever ything. I ' d b u y l o t s a n d t h e n g e t a
p ' l a n , d ra w i 't u p , d h d butld for sale.
E: llhve you beendoi'ngthis ever since?
34
CORDTRO
now.
C : Ye s. 0 f co u rse , Ii 'm se .m i- r eti' r ed
E : D i d y o u e v e r k n s wa n y p r o r n i n e nEt l p a s o a n si n t h e 5 c ' a ? F o i J n s l a n c e ,
did you knowFred HerveYback then?
C : Yes. I: kneu hirn i'n h.i'ghschool, and I'alw
h.i's:ftrst
knewhim whenhe star ted
0asis on MontanawhereGi11es[ie'sis now.
E : Whatdit you th.i'nkof him?
C:
t th.i'nk he rnadea fine maJror. Fred Hervey is a very c a p a b l eb u s i n e s s m a n ,
as you ltell llnow. I' think that both his terms as a mayorwere very good.
Whowere the rnorepnomi'nentMexi'canAmert'cansin El P a s oi n t h e e a r l y
1 9 5 0 .'s?
C : I l c a n r e c a l l E r n i : eF o n c e . I ' t h i n k h e w a sa n A l d e r m a n .
E: Wh a tw a s h i 's b u si n e ss?
tle had a spaghettifactory.
Tellez.
Raymond
0f course, I remember
H owl o n g d i d yo u kn o wT dllez?
C : t kn e wh i m si n ce h e w a s CountyCler k. 0f cour se, f' ve knowhim ev er s i nc e.
Are you frlends with htm?
N o t cl o se fri e n d s, h u t f would consider that he was a fr iend.
E : Wh a tw a s h i 's o ccu p a ti onback in the ear ly fl' fties?
C : l f e'd j u st co meh a ck fro m the Air For ce, and I believe he ser vedin tqel i c oC i ty
CORDERO
35
a $ a l i a i so n o ffj ce r. fthenhe cane back to E' l Pqsoafter beinf disc har ged,
he ra n fo r C o u n ty.C 'l e rand
k won.
E: Canyou fientipn solneoth-er promi'nentSpanilshsurnamesin El Pasoat that
tirne?
C : N o t sf h a n d .
E : hfouldyou think. th.at th.ey were the most prominent at t h a t t i m e ?
C : htell, they were someof the most prominent,yes.
I remember
Mr. Sim/n
Si'lva.
Mat wqs hi's.occupati'sn?
lle was.a husines:sInan.t{e had a very big handwarestor e on SouthEl Pas o
St re e t. T h e nh e h a d a wholesalehouse- - clothing,n o t i o n s r w e d r i n ga p p a r e l - a n d se ve ra l a rti :cle s.
W a sth e re a n y p a rti cu l a r year i' n whichyour homebusinessr eachedan
optitnumof pnofi't?
I would say that my best years were between'65 and
D oyo u th .i n k th i " s i s g e ner ally tr ue of' ' the hom econstr uctionindust r y ?
I ' b e l l e ve th a t [i .t w a s] as a gener alr u' le. Builder s as a gener a' rl ul e
werne
malti.ngmore money.
M r . C o n d e ro ,I:'d l t'ke to msveinto the fina' l phaseof the inter view now .
Yntl h.avebeenreadilng,no doubt, about the Br.centennjalthat,s comjngup.
36
CORDERO
C:
Yes.
E:
l l l h a ta re yo u r fe e l i n g s with r egar d to your identity with the BicentenAm er ic an
ni a l ? Wh a td o e s th e Bicentennialmeanto you as a lt{ exican
l i v i n g i n t h e U n i t e dS t a t e s i n 1 9 7 5 ?
C:
A s yo u kn o w ,th e B i centennialr efer s to the 200th Anniver sar yof the
f o u n d i n go f t h e A m e r i c a rne p u b l i c . A s s u c h , j t r e a l l y i s n ' t t o o c l o s e
to the Mexican
A m e r i c a ni n h a b i t a n t s ,n a t u r a l l y . H o w e v e ra, s a c e l e b r a t i o n
o f t h e f o u n d i n go f a c o u n t r y , I t h i n k i t ' s t e r r i f i c l
, e
B y a 1 l m e a n sw
e e l j v e h e r ea n d t h i s i s o u r c o u n t r y - s h o u l dc e l e b r a t ei t , b e c a u s w
we're citizens.
E:
Y o uh a v ev e r y p o s j t i v e f e e l i n g s a b o u t i t ?
C:
t , b e c a u s ei t ' s s o m e t h i n g
Y e s . I j u s t h o p et h e y d o n ' t c o m m e r c i a l i zi e
t h a t s h o u l db e v e r y s e r i o u s . I t h a s n o t h i n gt o d o w i t h c o m m e r c i a l i z a tion of any sort.
E:
I t s h o u l dbe som ethingthat comesfr om the hear t.
D oy o u t h i n k t h e M e x i c a nA m e r i c a cn o m m u n i tsyh o u l dt a k e a c t i v e p a r t i n
the celebration?
C:
I b e l i e v e t h e y s h o u l d ,y e s .
E:
I,{h e yo
n u h e a r th e n a m esW ashington,
Adams,Jeffer son, and Hamilton,
h o wd o y o u i d e n t i f y w i t h t h e s e p e o p l e ? l ^ l h adt o y o u t h i n k a b o u t t h o s e
i n d i v ' i d u asl?
C:
I i d e n t i f y w i t h a l 1 g n e a tm e n ,n o m a t t e rw h e r et h e y c a m ef r o m . I n t h e
American
R e v o l u t i o na g a i n s t E n g l a n d ,I i d e n t i f y m y s e l f v e r y c l o s e " l yw i t h
s u c hp e o pel a s S a m u e
Ald a m sP, a t r i c k H e n r ya, n d B e n j a m j nF r a n kiln .
These
CORDERO
37
werethe peop'leth.atArousedthe peopleto reb"e'lagai.ns.t
England. In
oth-erwerds,,th-ey'wene
th-eradtcals of th.eir ti.ne, hut they are great
we.l.e
educatedme.n,too.
{nen. Th"ey.
E: So f1u adrnj
re them?
C: t do.
E: Whenyou hear the term "forefathers" applied to themndo you consider
themyour forefathers?
C: Nst mi'ne. I cannot see themas rnyforefathers becauseI am not an Anglo
Ame ri ca n . Ma yb ea n A n gloAmer icandoes.n' tunder stand
what I' m say i ng ,
but there's t!'lo di'fferent ethni'cs hereinvolved, But I do admire themas
t h e fo u n d e rso f a co u n tr y and shakingoff the contr ol of a tyr anical ,
a u to cra ti c ki n E . T h a t's why I adm ir ethem.
E: Haveyou ever studi.edany MexicanHistory?
C : V e ry'l 'i ttl e ' u n fo rtu n a tely. This is what happensto most of us who
grow up sn the border. llle never get too muchof a chanceto study Mexican
Iti'story .
E : H aveyo u e ve r d e ve l o p e dany conceptionsabout the figur es of the M ex i c an
R evo 'l u ti o n ?S a y V i 1 1 a , Mader o- - what
ar e your thoughtson peopielik e
t h a t?
C : Ye s. F o r e xa rn p l eI, th i nk that
one of the gr eat patr iots of Mdxi c o
l t a s B e n i 'to;u # e z a n d Mor elos;and in later times Fr anciscoI. Mader o,
w h ow a s ' a v e r y w e l l e d u c a t e d
m a no f h i g h i d e a ' l s . T h a t ' s w h y h e d i d n ' t l i v e
1 o n g . T h e r e s t o f t h e p a c k k i l l e d hj m . T h eJ a c k a l H u e r t a a s s a s s i n a t e . d - T j m .
3B
CORDERO
H e w a sa g r e a t m a n ,i n m . ye s t j m a t i o n .
w,i'th.th-eAnglo Americanpatriots of
E: Wouldyou sa;r'you identi'fy.as-rnuch.
thie knerilcan Revo'luti'onas'you do wt'th.B.eni'toJuirez?
C: Yes, absolutely'.
E: lrlou]dyou say you itentify
w'ith them to an equat.extent?
C: Yes.
M dxico? Doyou m ani tai n
n
E : I { h a t ki 'n do f a re l a ti u nshi' pdo you m ai' ntai' with
any'polrltical affi']i'ation with Mdxrlco?
C: Ns.
E : H o ww o u l dy o u c h a r a c t e r i z ey o u r c u l t u r a l a i f i t i a t i o n .
C : D e fi n i tb try I' fe e l a c1 s s' eaffinity with M 6xico.
N h a td o e sy g u r r v i f e t h i n k a b o u ta n y c u l t u i a l c o n i e p t i o n as h e r n i q h th a v er v i t h
M ri xi co ? D o e ssh e th tn k like you do?
S h e 's o ri e n te d i n th a t r espect.
Is your wife bi'lingual?
Yes'. She's defi'ni'tAly'Mexi'can
ori'ented. You see, her father
Ameri'can
dt'edwltens'hewas.very'youngrso her motherbrought her up and had a
gr"eati'nf'luenceon her. Most of her frtends i.n childhoodwere Mexican
funeritans.
CORDERO
E:
39
T h a t ' s v e r y i n t e r e s t i n q . h l h a td o y o u t h i n k a b o u t t h e r o j e o f t h e
Me xi ca nA me ri ca ni n E l Pasoin the futur e- - within the next ten yea r s ?
D oy o u t h i n k t h e r e i s g o i n g t o b e a n y s u b s t a n t i a li n c r e a s ei n t h a t r o l e
o r d o y o u t h i n k t h i n q s w i l l r e m a i nt h e s a m e ?
L:
I l o o k fo r mo rei mp ro vem ent
and mor ebenefits to the M exicanAmeri c an
p o p u l a ti o n oa n d a q re ater r ole played by the MexicanAmer icans
in the
a f f a i r s o f t h e c i t y a n d t h e c o u n t r ya s a w h o l e . L i t t l e b y l i t t l e ,
it
h a s to co me . T h e re 's a gr eat am ountof potential talent ther e. You s ee
' i t i n t h e s c h o o l s . M a n yo f t h e V a l e d i c t o r i a n sa n d S a l u t a t o r i a n sa r e
Mexican
A m e r i c a n s .T h e t a l e n t i s t h e r e .
F.
S o yo u r fe e l i n q s a re p osttive about the futur e?
A b s oul t e 1 y .
E:
M r . C o r d e r olro u ' v e b e e nv e r y g r a c i o u sa n d v e r y i n f o r m a t i v e ,a n d I t h a n k
y o u fo r th e i n te rvi e w .