i INCLUSIVE EDUCATION IN THE SOUTH AFRICAN CONTEXT

INCLUSIVE EDUCATION IN THE SOUTH AFRICAN CONTEXT: ANALYSING
HOW CULTURAL DIVERSITY IS ACCOMMODATED IN FIVE FORMER MODELC
SCHOOLS IN BLOEMFONTEIN
BY
‘MAPHOKA CHRISTINA LIPHAPANG
Submitted in fulfilment of the requirements for the Degree
DOCTOR PHILOSOPHIAE:
EDUCATION
in the
School of Teacher Education
Faculty of Management Sciences
at the
Central University of Technology, Free State
Promoter: Professor MG. Mahlomaholo, MEd. (Harvard); DEd. (UWC)
BLOEMFONTEIN
JANUARY 2008
i
“….cultural differences among students often are viewed uncritically as deficiencies rather
than as strengths, and what passes for teaching is in actuality an assault on the specific
histories, experiences, and knowledge that such students use both to define their own identities
and to make sense of their larger world”
(Giroux & McLaren, 1996).
ii
DECLARATION
I, ‘MAPHOKA CHRISTINA LIPHAPANG, identity number 5708090827083 and student
number 205069509, do hereby declare that this research project submitted to the Central
University of Technology, Free State for the Degree DOCTOR PHILOSOPHIAE:
EDUCATION, is my own work; and complies with the Code of Academic Integrity, as well as
other relevant policies, procedures, rules and regulations of the Central University of
Technology, Free State; and has not been submitted before by myself or any other person in
fulfillment (or partial fulfillment) of the requirements for the attainment of any qualification.
…………………………
‘M. C. LIPHAPANG
………………….
DATE
JANUARY, 2008
iii
DEDICATION
To my late father John Mokolobetsi Liphapang who has always being an inspiration to me and
my mother ‘Mathabo, for believing in me.
To my nephews: Letshego and Kabelo Seane; my nieces Boitumelo Seane and Kutloano
Maibi, who inspired me to do this project.
To my sister Refiloe for always pushing me to do what I would rather not do and to all my
family – cousins, aunts and uncles – and friends for all the support they gave me.
To all those Black girls and boys who find themselves in integrated classrooms in the ‘New
South Africa’ but are still excluded and made to feel invisible.
iv
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
First and foremost I would like to give thanks to my God, the Divine Creator, for allowing me
to come this far. It has only been by His Grace and Divine mercy that I made it this far! I thank
you Lord! To my ancestors (badimo ba ka), I also give thanks for sustaining ‘this spirit’ ke a
leboha.
I am indebted to all those who taught me directly and indirectly. Among those are two
Canadian professors, Dr. D. M. Little and Dr. David MacKinnon who took me through
Inclusive Schooling and Critical Pedagogy in my Masters Degree studies. This work is the
result of a seed planted by them way back in the nineteen nineties.
My deepest gratitude goes to all those who helped this project come to fruition. I would like to
thank my supervisor, Professor M. G. Mahlomaholo, for his guidance and consistent support. I
thank him for encouraging me throughout, from the conception of this project to the end and
for caring when it could have been easier not to.
My sincere appreciation goes to each of the respondents who participated in this study and to
the Free State Department of Education for having allowed me to conduct this study in their
schools.
A word of thanks goes to the ladies in my office Ms. Rebecca Tsoeu and Ms. Patience
Mbanjani for using their word processing skills to turn my first rough attempts into quality
print.
I would also like to thank the Director: School of Teacher Education, Dr. S. R. S. Litheko, for
the administrative support – which every graduate student needs - that he gave.
I am indebted to my sister, Refiloe Seane, for taking time from her busy schedule to proof-read
the first drafts of this work. I further thank her and her husband, Dr. S. M. Seane (abuti
v
Maleho) for their uncensored constructive criticism. I express my thanks to my sister-friends,
Thato Bereng for being there when the thesis writing process became too lonely and painful for
me and ‘Makhoali Maibi for her constant support.
I thank my late father, ntate Molemi, - as I fondly called him - for instilling in me, from an
early age, self-love and proud acceptance of who I am and what I am and for teaching me that
people are not ‘better but different’. To my mother, my sister and her family I wish to say
thank you for sustaining me throughout the frustrations of the thesis writing process. I am
blessed to have you as my family, Bafokeng, Bataung le lona Bakgoatleng!
vi
ABSTRACT
This study investigates whether five former Model C schools in Bloemfontein are inclusive of
diverse cultures found among their learner population. In apartheid South Africa segregation
on the basis of racial and cultural difference was policy. Therefore, post apartheid legislation
and policies, coupled with the fact that inclusion is not always understood or welcomed where
people are used to segregated systems necessitated this investigation.
The study was qualitative in nature and Buskens-Meulenberg’s Free Attitude Interview (FAI)
was used as a main source of data collection. Principals of the five former Model C schools
that formed part of this study and three university students who are former Model C schools
learners were interviewed using open ended questions. It was important to employ the Free
Attitude Interview because it meant the interviewees were free to talk about anything they felt
like, as long as it was within the framework of the starting question. Secondly, it allowed for
reflection on the dominant discourse and also gave a voice to the dominated discourse.
To arrive at the findings data was analyzed and interpreted using Fairclough’s Textual Oriented
Discourse Analysis (TODA). This method of analysis allowed the researcher to look not only
at the text of the interviews but also at their discursive practices. The following findings
emerged from the data analysis.
The general finding from the data collected from both the principals and students was that
these schools expected learners from diverse cultural backgrounds to adapt to the existing
‘school culture’ which is white middle class. The curriculum delivery, staff provisioning, and
everything within the schools was found to reflect ‘white middle class culture’. The interviews
from both the principals and students indicated that instead of being inclusive of all learners
these schools go out of their way to assimilate children from other cultures especially black
children. While this is the case it is also clear that the two groups of respondents view this
differently. To the white school principals this is an accepted and normal way consciously
encouraged and promoted. On the other hand this is a sore point to the black students which led
them to feel that they did not belong in these schools and left them with feelings of alienation. I
vii
therefore argue that in spite of the rhetoric endorsing equity, redress, justice and respect for
difference including cultural diversity, little has changed in terms of educational outcomes.
Young black children who go to these former Model C schools still face exclusionary practices
despite the fact that these schools have been open to all racial groups and they are physically
there.
While I have taken care not to generalize from the findings, – since this was never the intention
of the study - I nevertheless drew the conclusion that these schools are actually not inclusive of
learners from diverse cultural backgrounds. Adhering to the ‘ethos’ of the school and thereby
maintaining the status quo seems to be the main objective of the schools (principals). In-fact
black learners in these schools continue to experience exclusion and explicit racism. The study
concludes that power structures in these schools – management and governance -, curriculum
and the way it is delivered and all other activities within the school are used to reinforce
domination of the learners from cultural backgrounds other than that of the school.
From the findings the study recommend that for these schools to be truly inclusive of learners
from diverse cultural backgrounds the Department of Education should take a leading role in
ensuring that transformation takes place in these schools and they become inclusive of all
learners. For this nation to be a true rainbow nation the Department of Education should not
leave the transformation of these schools to the School Management Teams and Governing
Bodies.
Recommendations on what schools themselves can do to ensure that they accommodate,
acknowledge and reflect cultural diversity and as such are inclusive of all learners are also
given. Furthermore suggestions for relevant future research, based on the findings are made.
Key words: Inclusive Education, Cultural diversity, former Model C school
viii
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Declaration
iii
Dedication
iv
Acknowledgements
vi
Abstract
viii
List of Appendixes
Summary of Chapters
Chapter one: Introduction
1
Chapter Two: Theoretical Framework and Literature Review
43
Chapter Three: Methodology
92
Chapter Four: Data Analysis and Interpretation
130
Chapter Five: Summary, Conclusion, Critique, Recommendations and Suggestions.206
CHAPTER ONE
1.
Introduction and Overview
1.1.
Introduction
1
1.2
Background to the problem
2
1.2.1
Legislation in Inclusive Education
3
1.2.2
Cultural Diversity and Special Education
4
1.2.3
Professional Accountability
6
1.3
Statement of the problem
8
1.4
Focus
9
1.5
Justification of focus
9
1.6
Context of the problem
10
1.6.1
Education and Democracy
10
1.6.2
Government Commitment to Inclusive Education
11
1.7
Inclusive Education and Cultural Diversity
12
ix
1.8
Aim of the study
13
1.8.1
Cultural Diversity
13
1.8.2
Objectives
14
1.8.3
Educator’s attitude can determined the success or otherwise of inclusion
15
1.9
Literature Review
17
1.9.1
Inclusive Education as a human rights issue
17
1.9.2
Work done in different countries
19
1.9.3
The situation in South Africa
20
1.9.4
Cultural Diversity in Education
21
1.10
Theoretical Framework
23
1.10.1 Critical Emancipatory Theory
23
1.11
25
Definition of operational terms
1.11.1 Inclusive Education
25
1.11.2 Cultural Diversity
27
1.11.3 Former ModelC Schools
28
1.12
28
Related Literature
1.12.1 Educator Skills in implementing Inclusive Education
29
1.12.2 Educator Attitudes
30
1.12.3 Relationships and success in schools
31
1.13
32
Methodology
1.13.1 Qualitative research method
33
1.13.2 Respondents
34
1.13.3 Data collection
36
1.13.4 Role of researcher
37
1.14
Presentation of Results
38
1.15
Summary of chapters
39
1.16
Significance of the study
40
1.17
Conclusion
41
x
CHAPTER 2
2.1
Introduction
43
2.2
Theoretical Framework
44
2.2.1
Positivism
44
2.2.2
Phenomenology
45
2.2.3
Critical Emancipatory Theory
46
2.2.3.1 Background to Critical Emancipatory Theory
47
2.2.3.2 Relevance of Critical Emancipatory Theory to this study
48
2.3
Definition of Operational Terms
51
2.3.1
Inclusive Education
51
2.3.2
Cultural Diversity
53
2.3.
Former ModelC Schools
57
2.4
Related Literature
58
2.4.1
Inclusive Education: Historical Background
59
2.4.2
From Integration to Inclusion
59
2.4.3
Rights Discourse
60
2.4.4
Influence of the United Nations on Countries
64
2.4.5
Developed countries versus developing countries
64
2.4.6
Work done in different countries
65
2.4.7
Inclusive Education in South Africa
67
2.4.8
Inclusive Education as a rights issue
67
2.4.9
Inclusive Education: Combating unfair discrimination
69
2.4.10 Principles of Inclusive Education
71
2.4.11 Cultural Diversity in school
72
2.4.12 Educator attitudes towards learners from ‘other’ cultural background
74
24.13 Black learners in predominantly White School
76
24.14 Impact of educator attitudes on school success
78
2.4.15 Skills of educators
79
2.4.16 Relationships and success in school
83
xi
2.4.17 Involvement of parents of learners from diverse cultural background
85
2.4.18 Language of learners from diverse background
86
24.19 Assessment
89
2.5
90
Conclusion
CHAPTER 3
3.1
Introduction
92
3.2
Qualitative Research Methodology
92
3.3
Sample and design
94
3.3.1
Setting
97
3.3.1.1 Background to ex ModelC Schools
97
3.3.1.2 The post apartheid schools - ex ModelC
101
3.3.2
103
Respondents
3.3.2.1 Frank
106
3.3.2.2 McKinnon
107
3.3.2.3 Brand
108
3.3.2.4 Cassidy
108
3.3.2.5 Fourie
109
3.3.3
109
Other Respondents
3.3.3.1 Pule
110
3.3.3.2 Gift
110
3.3.3.3 Mosetsana
111
3.4
Instrumentation
111
3.4.1
Role of the Researcher
112
3.4.2
Interviews
115
3.4.2.1 The historic origin of the Free Interview Technique
115
3.4.2.2 Characteristics of a Free Attitude Interview
116
3.4.2.3 Relevance of the Free Interview Technique to this study
118
3.5
Data Collection
119
3.5.1
Entry in the field
120
3.5.2
Confidentiality and Anonymity
122
xii
3.5.3
Rapport Building
123
3.5.4
Interview Process
125
3.6
Validity
126
3.6.1
Tape Recording
126
3.6.2
Verbatim Accounts
127
3.6.3
Data Review
128
3.7
Conclusion
128
CHAPTER 4
4.
Data Analysis
4.1
Introduction
130
4.2
Respondents interpretation of Inclusive Education
131
4.3
Teaching Staff Composition
132
4.3.1. Staffing versus the demographics of the country
132
4.3.2
134
Lack of good black teachers as perceived by principals
4.3.3.
“Unqualified Blacks”
137
4.3.4.
Students’ views on staff composition
139
4.3.5.
Students’ views of a good black teacher versus principals’
141
4.3.6.
Teachers as role models
141
4.4
Curriculum
143
4.4.1
Content Area
144
4.4.1.1 Language
144
4.4.1.1.1. Language as a tool for assimilation
144
4.4.1.1.2. Status allotted African languages
146
4.4.1.1.3. Use of language to control integration
147
4.4.2
151
Curriculum Delivery or Teaching Strategies
4.4.2.1. Teachers’ bias in curriculum delivery
151
4.4.2.2. Irrelevance of curriculum to delivery to culturally diverse learners’
needs
154
4.4.2.3. Dissuading learners from critical thinking
155
4.4.3
156
The Hidden Curriculum
xiii
4.4.3.1. Physical Environment
157
4.4.3.2. Maintaining the ‘ethos and traditions’ of the school
157
4.4.3.3 Alienating learners from ‘other’ cultural backgrounds
159
4.4.3.3.1. The Flag
160
4.4.3.3.3. School Celebrations
160
4.4.3.3.2. Non observance of the country’s important days
162
4.4.3.3.4. Dress code
163
4.5.
Sporting Activities
164
4.6.
Inclusion and cultural celebrations
165
4.7.
School Governance
166
4. 7. 1. School governance membership and school demographics
167
4.7.2.
Back seen as inadequate
168
4.7.3.
Maintaining the status quo
170
4.8.
School policy on Inclusive Education
172
4.9.
Departmental support on Inclusion
174
4.10
Relations within the school
176
4.10.1. Principals’ general perceptions versus students’
176
4.10.2. Relationships between educators and learners from
‘other’ cultures: Principals’ views
178
4.10.3. Relationships between educators and learners
from ‘other’ cultures: students’ views
180
4.10.3.1. Color Blindness
180
4.10.3.2. Teachers’ stereotypes about learners from ‘other’ cultures
182
4.10.3.3. Teachers’ low expectations of learners from other cultures
184
4.10.3.4. Schools’ inability to deal with racial tensions between
teachers and students
185
4.10.3.5. Issues of trust between black learners and white teachers
186
4.10.3.6. Race and Societal or Economic Class
187
4.10.4.
Relations among learners from ‘other’ cultures
and those from the dominant culture: principals’ point of view
4.10.4.1. Schools’ Image
190
190
xiv
4.10.4.2. Racial name calling
192
4.10.4.3. Trivializing racial name calling
192
4.10.4.4. Schools’ inability to modify racist behavior among learners
194
4.5.4
Relations among learners and those from
‘other’ cultures: Students’ point of view
195
4.10.5.1. Racial name calling and school’s failure to handle it
195
4.10.5.2. Black learners sitting alone
196
4.10.5.3. Societal/Economic Class and Race Relations
197
4.11.
Educators’ skills
198
4.11.1.
Principals’ perspective
198
4.11.1.1. Departmental training in Inclusive Practices
199
4.11.1.2. Schools’ own initiatives on skills development
201
4.11. 2
202
Educators skills: Students’ perspective
4.12
Mainstream verses inclusion
204
4.13.
Conclusion
205
CHAPTER 5
5.
Findings and limitations of the study
5. 1. Introduction
206
5. 2. Aim and Goals restated
206
5. 3. Methodology revisited
206
5. 4. Findings in a nutshell
207
5. 4. 1. Inclusive Education
207
5. 4. 2. Reflection of cultural diversity
208
5. 5. Conclusion
209
5. 6. Critique and Limitations of the study
210
5. 7. Recommendations
212
5. 8. Ideas for future research
215
5. 9. My personal account
216
6. REFERENCES
218
xv
List of Appendices
Appendix 1: Letter to the Free State Department of Education requesting permission to conduct
the study in the schools.
Appendix 2: Letter from the Department giving permission.
Appendix 3: Interview guide for interviews with principals
Appendix 4: Interview guide for interviews with students
Appendix 5: Transcripts of interviews with principals
Appendix 6: Transcripts of interviews with students
xvi
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2;9
APPENDIX 5: TRANSCRIPTS OF INTERVIEWS WITH PRINCIPALS
Interview with Mr. McKinnon principal of St. Raphael School
Mr. McKinnon is a sixty year old white English speaking man. We meet in his office
during the September holidays.
R: South Africa is often referred to as a rainbow nation, a nation of diverse cultures. Now
can you tell me how inclusive of these diverse cultures would you say your school is? I
would like you to tell me how your school acknowledges this cultural diversity – tell me
everything in the school that you would say reflects this diversity, be it classroom
practice or anything at all. You have a diverse learner population, you have English
speaking white kids, Afrikaans speaking white and colored kids, Chinese kids, black kids
and so forth, you even have children from neighboring countries like Lesotho and
Botswana; how do you see to it that each and every child in your school feel that they
belong?
Mr. McKinnon: The first thing that I think I must say to you Ms. Liphapang is that I was
privileged to be a head master of a school in transformation in Zimbwabwe before I came
here, and I would like to believe that, that helped considerably. I think it gave one a sort
of sense of having been there before, and therefore a greater sense of security in terms of
what one was trying to do. You know the Shona speaking people and the Ndebele are
very different from the Basothos and the Tswanas and the rest of it we accepted. Despite
the multicultural sort of notions of the modern world, I still believe there are very, very
distinct cultural differences between all sorts of people and between white people,
between Afrikaners, between Greek and English speaking people. And those differences
are as marked as they ever were and that doesn’t mean to say it’s wrong. I think it’s
actually wonderful that people actually respect and nurture their cultural identity.
You know here we have a situation where we eh, eh you know there is so much eh what
can I call it so much eh contradictions in our country alright. We’re told to respect our
1
languages, you know, we’re told to respect our cultures, we’re told to respect our
identities and yet as soon as somebody goes slightly over line politically they get
hammered, and that I think is one of the tragedies. I’m looking at the negatives first.
As far as schools are concerned I think one has to have some basics or a preset and then
children must know. I think that the first and most important preset is that there are no
special people in the school. There are those people who want to be part of the school,
those people who want to be part of the identity of the school, part of the identity of
Bloemfontein and part of the identity of the Free State. In other words what I’m saying to
is your school must be your initial point of departure okay. I tell people my school is not
a South African school it is a South African school last but it’s a Bloemfontein school
first it’s a Free State school second. The other thing can come when it wants to alright
this is where we lay the foundations. The next thing and this might be a very unpopular
judgment, I tell our pupils that I don’t believe in affirmative action because I believe that
children detest affirmative action. The ones who might not detest it and might welcome it
with open arms will be those who know they are not going to get any where with their
own efforts. Now I don’t actually go to the negative side and say “listen we don’t believe
in affirmative action” but every time a boy from a humble background achieves
something I make a point of saying to the rest of the school he’s done it on his own and
he’s done despite his background. He’s done it despite his skin color. In other words what
I’m saying is that you look at the negatives that come through the filter right, don’t have
the negatives underneath. In other words there is no need to talk about racial tolerance.
There is no need to talk about eh whites being better than Blacks or Afrikaners being
better than Englishmen. That sort of talk unfortunately I find very negative and very
inhibiting in a school situation.
I think the other thing is one must be prepared to walk the talk. In other words we must
be prepared to actually commit ourselves to an ideology if you like. So for example
there’s private praise in my school, you’ve probably seen that before. Now that to me we
call in our school homily alright, in other words it’s like a school prayer. I read that at all
our important functions. We had our closing function on Thursday, our speech day prize
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giving with all the parents all the pupils there visitors etc. and before we start anything I
read that out, as my personal credo for St. Raphael’s School. In other words what I am
telling them is there is a place for everybody in this school, Black, White, Hindus,
Moslem, Presbyterian and whatever but they mustn’t come blow me off white. And I
think that’s important because it sends a strong message to the children that while there
will be differences and we respect them but don’t come and blow us away because we
won’t accept it. There is a copy of every one of these in every classroom in the school.
There it is up there it’s in that form over there right, and there is one in every classroom
so people can actually see what we stand for. Now this is not a mission statement it’s not
a value statement, this is our commitment to a multicultural school. In addition to that on
the board at the back there it’s our aims and our mission statement and I would like to
believe that our commitment if you like to a multicultural school is actually embodied in
the school mission statement as well.
R: You said that in your school you’ve got Hindus, Moslems and everything but you say
that prayer is inclusive of everybody what about….
Mr. McKinnon: Absolutely that’s our history. Our history is that we were established by
the Anglican missionaries in 1863. You can’t deny that, you can’t get away from that.
Our church, this was a private school by the way, so it was a private school right up until
1976 and there was an agreement by the state where we were committed to keep our
private school traditions. So we still keep our school chapel. We are by foundation and by
history an Anglican Church school. Our school chaplain is an Anglican chaplain, but we
are not exclusive.
R: So am I hearing you to be saying that everybody who comes into the school, they
come knowing what the school stands for and because they join the school voluntarily
they will be part of the school. They cannot expect the school to change but they will do
what the school expects of all learners?
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Mr. McKinnon: Absolutely. And when a Moslem sits next to me and says “but, you
know, how can we benefit from the school when you are an Anglican Church school”,
what I say to them is that you’re going to benefit from the ethos of the school. The only
way you can enjoy it is by being in our chapel. That doesn’t mean to say you have to be a
believer in Anglicanism. We don’t force Anglicanism down anybody’s throat. We’ve got
Jews in the school they come to chapel because that is the centre of our school..
(uncomfortable cough). I think cultural experience is a little bit clichéd and I don’t really
mean that in a negative way.
R: Could you tell me, here is a child who is a Moslem in the school, would this child still
be expected to go to chapel despite the fact of being a Moslem?
Mr. McKinnon: That’s right, but he doesn’t have to take part in any special celebratory
(service). He doesn’t have to take communion or anything like that with us but when I
talk about chapel I’m not talking so much about celebratory services like Holy
Communion and everything. I am talking about our daily chapel service our daily
assembly. It’s really, it’s a type of assembly, and the fact that it’s an Anglican priest who
is presiding, you know, it’s neither here nor there. I suppose there are very, very orthodox
Hindus and Moslems who probably would object but I haven’t had one objection in the
twenty years that I have been here. I haven’t had anybody object. But I think that the
important thing about that, is that it tells me that these people don’t feel threatened
because we are the Anglican or because we’re white and they don’t feel threatened
because they don’t know of any situation where their children are being forced into
anything.
R: Okay. You mentioned twenty years so you have been principal here for twenty years?
Mr. McKinnon: It’s my twenty first year.
R: Okay, and in all these years there has never been a problem that you would say is as a
result of the diversity in the school, be it things like racial problems or anything?
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Mr. McKinnon: Look, from time to time there have been incidents. We get stuck in
quickly. We try not to make a big issue of it. But I believe (laughs hysterically) I’m going
to be very crude now, I believe that you get good white boys and bad white boys and you
get good black boys and bad black boys, and what actually happens I think (laughing) if I
can be crude about it I actually think that the bad of both types actually get pushed to one
side, they get marginalized and they actually irritate each other. You know with the welladjusted kids in the school there is never a problem, never a problem. And the badly
adjusted kids same as the badly adjusted parents in society in the greater South African
picture are the ones who, the ones who, create the problems. I would be very, very naïve
to believe that we never have problems here. I think a lot of them would not have been
brought to my attention. I don’t think either side really wants to publicize their grievance
or their happiness and I think most kids will sort it out themselves. Look I know for a fact
that from time to time there’s provocation. I think a lot of it comes in the heat of the
moment. I don’t think it’s a deep seated racial prejudice. I think every now and again
there will be an insensitive comment or an insensitive word and the boys will probably
sort it out themselves. I am told, I haven’t actually seen it, that occasionally there’ve been
fist and cuffs. But that’s probably not a bad thing. I would never condone it publicly.
You’re asking me, eh let’s for example, you know, let’s use the dreaded “k” word you
know if I was a black child and somebody used that in front of me I think that I would
probably, I would probably react with a fist. That might sound horribly like, not like an
educationist or a school master, but if it is that insensitive, it’s like an Afrikaner calling
me a “soutie” right, if he insults me I’m afraid I’m gonna get angry. That doesn’t mean to
say that I don’t have interpersonal skills. I’ve got skills. I just don’t allow people to insult
me in the same way as I try not insult other people and like wise if I were to go to an
Afrikaner now and call him a Dutchman I must expect him to hit me. I must expect him
to get angry with me. Eh you know racial tolerance can go so far, we’re all being told in
this country what the real sensitivities are. Afrikaners don’t like being called Dutchmen I
don’t like being called rock spider, Blacks don’t like being called eh “ks” and English
speaking people don’t like being called “souties” and the rest of it. And I find there is
very little of that in the school very little of that.
5
R: You say that if and when these things happen they would be brought to you. So what
is the school’s policy on that? Say a learner were to come to you or any other educator in
the school and say “so and so has called me a racial slur” or anything like that, what’s the
school’s policy?
Mr. McKinnon: I would act promptly right. In other words it has to be dealt with
immediately, but it has to be dealt with sensitively. If you make a major issue of it then
all you’re doing is you’re magnifying the whole thing and you’re in fact prolonging the
eh, how I can I put it, eh you’re prolonging the insult, right. Deal with it sensitively, deal
with it on a low key level. I don’t think one should make a big issue of it. Occasionally
you get somebody who is a little bit intransigent, most people will withdraw the remark
and they will apologize immediately. If they don’t then I call in the parents. More often
that not perhaps it’s the parents who are more offended than the child. But generally
speaking one can reason with parents. The other thing about it, of course, is that one
should try and avoid parents becoming involved in their children’s problems, I think
that’s also important. But it’s better if it is a festering sore that in fact we get the parents
in and they would normally sort it out, but it’s very seldom that I have had to do that,
very seldom. If there is fighting then obviously I will intervene immediately. But I don’t
have a major policy on the wall that says Blacks may not fight with whites you know, and
whites may not call Blacks by names, anything like that. Sorry that’s a bit far (laughs). I
actually don’t think that’s necessary. All you’re doing in that is that you’re making a
public statement out of something that really shouldn’t exist and if it exists it will purely
be the exception rather than the rule.
R: Well I wanted clarity because you brought this up as something that would not happen
in your school. I just wanted to find out if there was something that we can say is as a
result of.
Mr. McKinnon: Now look I think one must accept that there is insensitivity in the calling
of names but I think what one must do and I really feel strongly about this, as I say there
6
three or four standard racial insults, okay, for every nation be they Jews or Portuguese
there is a certain name, there must be an unwritten law that you steer clear of that, okay.
But I am an Englishman okay and I’ve been insulted many times in Bloemfontein not
seriously okay. Eh people might have served me second or third because I’m English,
they might have spoken to me in Afrikaans or said things behind me in Afrikaans because
I don’t understand it very well. I believe that part of the new South Africa people must
learn to accept and to get on with their lives. There are very few people like that and I
actually believe that part of our interpersonal skills we need to teach children in our
schools the best sort of things you must learn to deal with, without aggression without
counter insults and that sort of thing and we do that, we do that.
R: Thank you. How many learners do you have approximately?
Mr. McKinnon: We have about 550 in the school.
R: And what would be your cultural diversity in percentages, like how many Chinese,
Jews, Whites, Blacks, etc.?
Mr. McKinnon: I really don’t know actually. I would say Whites it’s probably seventy
percent or seventy five percent and other races twenty-five, maybe thirty percent. Which
means that in fact those of other colors are fairly dominated by the traditional white
culture. I’d like to believe that it’s not a problem. I think where your problem comes is in
your traditional interests of the various races. You know your black kids would prefer to
have soccer, your white kids traditionally play rugby and that’s difficult particularly in a
small school because you can’t, if you want to remain competitive, you can’t afford to
diversify too much otherwise you split your strengths. And I think that sometimes it’s
seen as prejudice, you know, for example in a school like ours we have been playing
rugby for hundred and forty years and we would like to see people of all colors many of
them who are much more athletic than the white kids, we’d like to see them playing
rugby and cricket for that matter and they have done incredibly well. I mean my best
sportsman in the school at the moment is a black boy and he plays rugby and cricket and
7
he is the best cricket and the best rugby player in the school. And when people come to
me and say “listen black kids can’t play rugby and cricket”, I’m afraid I get very angry
because it’s not true, not true at all.
R: So your school is not strong in things like soccer?
Mr. McKinnon: No, no but we’re strong in basketball. You know I have allowed it (own
italics). I have basketball as a sort of an activity which turns to, turns to be, I won’t say
turns to be a black sport, but turns to be in my school anyway. More black boys would
want to play basketball than white boys.
R: What is the language of learning and teaching in the school, would I be right to
assume it’s English?
Mr. McKinnon: You’re right it’s English but we do eh obviously there’s Sotho in the
primary school and the Sesotho will go right up to grade nine. Sotho in other words it’s
the third language as it were. And then we offer Sotho as a matric subject but it’s done
extramurally, you know, there isn’t the demand to do it as a full subject. Apart from
which you know I don’t know too much about it but I’m told that the Sotho first language
is very difficult.
R: So the Sesotho that they do at matric what level is it. Is it first language?
Mr. McKinnon: It’s turns to be second.
R: Second language? And what about Afrikaans?
Mr. McKinnon: Also second language.
R: So you are saying you also have Sotho at matric as an add on for those learners who
want to do it?
8
Mr. McKinnon: Who want to do it ja. But what I try to do is to encourage them to do,
obviously their English, their Afrikaans and their Sotho. A lot of them do and they do
well in all three if they are linguistically inclined.
R: So who offers this Sesotho do you have a Sesotho speaking teacher?
Mr. McKinnon: We have a Sesotho speaking teacher we’re combined with Morrison
School. So instead of having three or four boys who want to do Sotho with the girls there
we have a class of twelve.
R: Under whose establishment would that teacher be?
Mr. McKinnon: Under Morrison?
R: So you have only one black teacher in your staff, this one who teaches Sesotho, or do
you have other black teachers?
Mr. McKinnon: Ja she is the only black teacher.
R: Could you tell me about your School Governing Body, how representative is it of the
learner population, that is do you have the kind of diversity that you have within the
learner population?
Mr. McKinnon: Yes the chairperson is black and I have one other black parent.
R: When you have your parents’ meetings do you have the same support from all parents
from different cultural backgrounds?
Mr. McKinnon: Ja I certainly get more support from white parents, and I have never
really been sure why. I think maybe the black parents feel that they are outnumbered you
9
know, I don’t know. But let me also say that the black parents that do come are very, very
supportive ja very supportive. But I’ve been disappointed with the turn up. But then that
might be my style that puts them off, you know. I tend to be, how can I put it, you know
from what I’m told, in the township schools and that sort of thing everything is very
democratic and very, very participative and that sort of thing. I think our traditional
model C schools turn to be run on a far more eh, what’s the word, I don’t like the word
dictatorial but on a far more prescriptive type or arrangement. While we invite ideas and
we invite suggestions and that sort of thing we don’t have a situation where we go and we
have a three hour meeting about where our school is going. We don’t do that at all.
Maybe I’m wrong but that’s not my formula for running a school. There might be other
reasons and I would hate for them to think that it’s because we don’t like them being
there. Obviously we enjoy all the parents being there. But can I also say to you not in my
defense or defense of this school, that we actually don’t get a lot of parents at parents’
meetings. But please bear in mind that the make-up of the school doesn’t really lend itself
to that because we’ve got nearly half of our pupils are in fact boarders who come from as
far afield as Welkom and Johannesburg and Ladybrand. So you know they don’t really
have an opportunity to take part in regular parents’ meetings but I go to them, you know,
I will have a parents’ meeting in Ladybrand or in Johannesburg etc. every year and I meet
with them there.
R: Now can you tell me has there been any support from the department of education
maybe in the form of workshops, and I am not talking about your Outcome Based
Education or Revised National Curriculum Statement or anything like that, to sort of
assist the school and teachers on how to acknowledge and deal with the diversity in the
school in a manner that would be inclusive of all cultures within the school?
Mr. McKinnon: Ja. As I sit here now I can’t recall exactly I think there haven’t been
specific workshops for multiculturalism per se but within many conferences that I have
been to particularly the Free State Principals’ Association, in fact having been president
of the principals’ association I have actually organized speakers there who are very adept
at explaining multicultural differences. And I was instrumental at doing that portion as
10
much as eight nine years ago. I don’t know if you remember a person by the name of
Seth Mazibuko, I mean I have invited Seth here in Bloemfontein two or three times, to
speak to parents to speak to my pupils here to speak to principals and that is good
because there is a person who can transcend multicultural and cultural differences and
actually bridge the divide and you need people like that to speak to the boys. One of the
people who has been to my school two or three times, in fact we started him here with his
training, was Gayton Mackenzie. Now Gayton Mackenzie we know is anti crime. But we
get Gayton speaking to three or four hundred boys here as he’s spoken to my school and
he’s such a catalyst because you know he can call a Colored by an insulting name, he can
call a Black by an insulting name, and he can call a White by an insulting name and he’ll
get away with it because you know people see him as a personality and somebody who’s
already bridged that gap. So I’d like to say to you while there hasn’t necessarily been any
formal support from the department as far as I can recall certainly on our own initiative
we have taken that opportunity to try to, particularly for teachers and principals, to have
workshops with speakers who are able to bridge the divide. Eh I’ve got one in the line at
the moment which I’m still hoping to have next term. It’s largely for my school, and there
is an organization in Jo’burg which specifically commits itself to, I think it’s a, it’s a
three day workshop, just about multiculturalism and cultural sensitivities and what one
shouldn’t do where, why black people are often offended that’s sort of thing. It’s
something that I would like to do but it’s very expensive, very expensive. I mean its’ ja
something that I’d like to share with some of my colleagues in order to bear the cost.
R: If I’m hearing you well, you are saying that even though there hasn’t been any formal
support the school has tried on its own to get some support from somewhere. Now that
we are discussing that do you think it is important for the department of education to
render such support or is it fine for the school to source support on its own?
Mr. McKinnon: Look maybe I’m being unfair. I can’t recall any specific workshops for
multiculturalism, but then I can understand that it’s not something that anybody in the
department can do. In the same way that I don’t think I could run a mixed group
workshop with my limited skills, you need somebody who has actually studied that and
11
it’s able to do it, so I wouldn’t blame the department for it because I don’t believe they’ve
got the skills. Maybe it is their responsibility, ja.
R: Well my question is not really about it being done by the department per se. it is more
about the department organizing the workshop, the initiative coming from them. If, as
you say, they lack the expertise the question would be have they taken the initiative to
organize the expertise that is there be it from Higher education or NGO’s or anything like
that. Okay it’s there any other thing that you would like to tell me?
Mr. McKinnon: Eh I think there are ways and means of eh, you can be principal of a
school and I come along as a learner and I can feel a stranger in your school because
there are things in which I’m not involved but on the other hand there can be things in
your school which can make me be a part of it even though I’m not necessarily a high
flier, for example we have a special handshake in our school, can I show you (shakes my
hand to demonstrate), okay every pupil shakes hands like that which means to me, and
with parents as well, we’re part of a brotherhood if you like, and that doesn’t mean it’s a
ku klax klan or anything like that. We’re part of the brotherhood, we’re part of the
school. And when I shake hands like that with parents I’ll mix it with that (demonstrates).
Again showing them that I respect eh their difference, that’s who we are at St. Raphael’s
School. And I think that, that’s telling people, and when I interview a new pupil here and
he’s accepted at the school the first thing we do when we walk out I teach him that
handshake. So there is a sense of eh I think there is a sense of belonging.
The other thing that I’m very proud of and we haven’t done it all that long but we’ve
started it now and I’m very proud of it. The first thing in the morning in chapel we say
the Lord’s prayer in Sesotho contrary to that terrible article in the newspaper last week
and a lot of rubbish that they wrote about us. Contrary to what they said everyone of us
still thinks that it’s important that we say the Lord’s prayer in Sesotho at least two three
times a week.
R: Who leads that, who knows the Lord’s prayer in Sesotho?
12
Mr. McKinnon: Boys do that. We say the Lord’s Prayer in Afrikaans and we say the
Lord’s Prayer in English. The other thing is eh when we have our church services our
school chaplain there will be parts of the service that he will do in Sotho, there will be
parts of it that he will do in Afrikaans and then they will be parts that he will do in
English. The other thing, eh I don’t know, what faith do you belong to?
R: I’m a Christian, I’m a Methodist.
Mr. McKinnon: You are a Methodist, okay. Eh there are various parts eh of the
Communion of the Eucharist where there is a response eh where we actually take words
out of the National Anthem which in fact a prayer it’s not an anthem at all, it’s in fact a
prayer, and we actually use that part of the National Anthem in our prayer in chapel. So
Sotho, Afrikaans and English are getting recognition in our chapel worship. We also have
our intercultural evening every year, and I tell you it’s become a massive tradition really,
and it’s something that started off small and I tell you know it is the most successful
function that we have every year. And it’s one function that we have in our school where
people who are not part of our school come as well. And I’m absolutely astound at the
success rate and that, you know it’s funny the people involved in it are very, very proud
of what they are doing and we will have a traditional African food we’ll have our
Swedish food, we’ll have our Greek stall we’ll have our Portuguese stall, we’ll have our
Jewish stall and we’ll have our Afrikaans stall. And I think this year we must have had, I
don’t know if I’m exaggerating but we must have had twenty five stalls from the different
cultures, and they come dressed up in their traditional dress and it’s really, it’s a
wonderful evening. And as I say we’ve been thinking of canceling it because it’s so
much work but the parents have said to us we must keep it. And it’s not just eh, there is a
case in point where it’s not just the white parents who come, plenty of other parents of
other colors will come plenty.
R: The aim of this event is it for parents come together or is it to teach about other
cultures?
13
Mr. McKinnon: It’s partly to teach learners about other people’s cultures about their
diets, about their dress and about their music. You know we, oh alright obviously it’s not
possible to have twenty five different pieces of music but we’ll have traditional Sotho
dancing and music. We’ll have Greek dancing and we’ll have the Scottish dancing and
that sort of thing. It’s not like the children will absorb everything that’s going on but it is
an opportunity. The other thing about it which I’d like to just stress at that evening we
actually have the children prepare their own little skits or their own little plays or their
own little eh miniature skits and they are absolutely hilarious. For instance they can play
somebody who is a bad newsreader and do it so well with all the bad expressions and bad
pronunciation and everything. And then they will be others who will play the Mickey out
of eh out of colors and it’s done in good faith.
F: Could you then tell me about your hostel arrangement. How is it?
Mr. McKinnon: Eh I would like to think that generally speaking there is no problem but
there are those who would like to be with their own, I don’t want to say their own kind,
but their own friends. But I think during meals black boys like to congregate at their own
table but whether those are their friends I really don’t know, but I think it’s freedom of
the right to association, you know, it’s good they must be able to associate with whoever
they would like to. I would like to believe that there are some boys who are very
integrated, very integrated. I suppose you get the conservatives on both sides but it’s a
very, very small group. When the majority of the white boys are away the black boys
tend to club together. We have what we call optional leave out weekend, and those boys
who tend to live say in Welkom, Ladybrand, and Tweesruit now their parents will come
fetch them but I have boys for instance from Qwaqwa they don’t get to go home that
weekend so they will tend, perhaps to be groups of say ten to fifteen and they will tend to
congregate.
R: You have mentioned that you have a very close relationship with Morrison school.
What about other schools say for instance schools from the township?
14
Mr. McKinnon: I had a partnership with Bainsvlei Combined school for many years
unfortunately it sort of stopped not for any reason but because I didn’t have time to
pursue it. We have an interact club, an interact club is a school club. We in fact sponsored
an interact club with Bartemea school for example, we also eh had Bartemea here playing
soccer and debating with us and everything, and we also eh we also assisted them with
various things. We also have assisted a centre where HIV positive children from the
township live eh it’s called eh Leboneng.
R: Is there anything else that you would like to tell me?
Mr. McKinnon: Perhaps the most controversial issue of the whole lot is the business of
educators. I don’t know if you want me to speak about it?
R: Yes I would like you to.
Mr. G: Okay. I am going to defend myself by saying that my policy might not be a
popular one but I believe that one of the most important things that we have to do is that
we have to make sure that the teachers coming into our schools are the right quality. Then
a lot of people will say but Mr. McKinnon that is a racist one, it’s not a racist one. What I
am saying is you’ve got people coming into your school that will accept the folkrays the
morays of that school. I couldn’t go to Ray high school because I don’t believe that I
would be able to absorb that culture, and I think that it’s a different one from the one that
I have been brought up in despite the fact that I’m white, okay. It’s a traditionally
Afrikaans culture, and I’m not sure that I could be able to actually handle the way that it
all costs, I can’t handle the fanaticism etc. Now you come into a school like ours and
your major traditions will be the church, will be your rugby, will be your cricket and your
academic excellence okay. Now those are just four things and perhaps tolerance, okay
five things. When I interview a teacher I want to know that, that teacher will absorb all
five facets of the school. If they don’t there’s going to be a weak link in my school and I
don’t want a weak link and then somebody who doesn’t want to be here. Now the
question is at what stage do we force integration in the teaching corpse. I would be very
15
happy tomorrow if the department were to come to me and say to me Mr. McKinnon
we’ve got two, three Sotho speaking teachers for you. I would be very happy to take
them, I would like to take them. I’ve had two and one wasn’t interesting enough and the
one was a Shona speaker from Harare a competent rugby coach and a competent cricket
coach right. That guy was as much part of the school as I am but that sort of teacher is so
much in demand that he’s going to be snapped up by the whole town. What I’m saying to
you is that I actually believe that the way that we must get past it is by mentorships in the
school but the government must help us subsidize that. Right they must come in here for
their training, let us show them how we operate let us show them what we expect and that
doesn’t mean to say they are less competent than the white teachers, because that is the
perception that is why teachers of color are not being accepted into the traditional model
C schools. We can just get people to absorb, eh there will be some elements but if we can
bridge that I believe multicultural passage could be speeded up. There is no way that you
can bring it at this time, I’m sorry. I’m dying to bring people of color into my school,
people who come in the interview situation you can see they will not cope here. They
might say they would like to have a chance but eh, I don’t know, I have been very
disappointed they will not cope here. A lot of it is eh a language thing and it is very
difficult to communicate in the interview and it’s going to be a very big issue for being
here. I’m very sorry but it won’t work! In the same way that I have white Afrikaans
speaking or white English speaking teachers who sit next to me in an interview and I
know that those people will be a disaster in our school. When I interview a teacher let’s
assume I’m interviewing for mathematics first and foremost I’m looking for a maths
teacher but I’m also looking to know whether the individual is a disciplinarian, to see
whether he/she is sufficiently staffed to command discipline in the classroom. The third
thing that I look for is to see whether the person can run my PTA, can run a tuck shop etc.
because you’ve got to be prepared to make a contribution outside of the classroom, that’s
very , very important. And then lastly I think I must be sure that the person is going to
stay at my school and he is not going to use my school as a stepping stone because if a
person can be accepted at my school Standard Bank, FNB and all other important
companies will be looking for that person to come and use the expertise that he got at my
school and he is going to be snapped up from my school.
16
R: Earlier on you said that you don’t believe in affirmative action. Now can you tell me
how you would define affirmative action.
Mr. McKinnon: I would define it truly as an unfair placement of an individual, in a
situation above other people, of severe incompetence. And it’s unfair because what you
are actually doing is you’re eh, look let’s forget about the adults because the adults are
people who are actually making a good mess of this country at the moment. What you are
doing is you are inculcating a trend amongst young people which is going to be
perpetuated in this country. And my believe, and I have discussed it openly with the kids,
is that lot of the school boys themselves find it very, very difficult to come to terms with
particularly the unfairness that is revealed in their own environment. I could give you any
number of examples. We had in one year, and I will share this one with you. It was so
sad, we had a boy who came to us from De Aar, a Colored boy. We had a particularly
good rugby team here and we had an outstanding player and he didn’t make the team but
this Colored boy made the team. And this Colored boy was a wonderful boy and nobody
decried his fortune if you like, but it left to me and amongst the other boys a lot of
questions unanswered and a lot of suspicion and an element of resentment. Look the boys
are not stupid, they are actually saying listen guys it’s not us it’s those adults. And those
adults who are making mistakes, those adults are teachers and they are destroying the
credibility of the teaching profession and less and less competent boys are looking at the
teaching profession. At my last school it was a multiracial school in Zimbwabwe co ed.
700 children. In my matric class which was only a class of about 16 and at least half
would go for teaching. But for the twenty years that I have been here do you how many
boys have gone into teaching? Three! and do you know how many are still in teaching?
One! And that says to me that for teaching to be perpetrated as a profession we’ve got to
recapture our credibility.
R: Now were you to leave here like you are saying you will be leaving soon, are the
things that you say are done here to accommodate all cultures going to continue? In short
are there school policies to support the sustenance of what you are doing?
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Mr. G: I would like to say that I think the department will be able to get somebody who
will continue what I started here, and I am not saying what I have done is right but I
believe they will get someone who will continue with what we started. And I would like
to believe that it’s not about rules and policies but it’s about the individual.
R: In short there is no policy on multiculturalism or cultural integration or inclusivity?
Mr. G: No none.
R: Thank very much for your time.
END OF INTERVIEW
18
Interview with Mr. Cassidy, principal of Woodmead high school
The interview took place at the school in the principal’s office at 9.am. On all the walls
are pictures of people who have been principals in the past years. They are all white and
male. In the hall way there are some more pictures on the wall. The pictures are those of
students. They too are all white. This is surprising to me because there are lots of black
kids in this school. I look around to see if there are any pictures of the President of the
Republic, or that of the Minister of Education, but there are none. Not even those of the
Free State Premier or the MEC for Education.
R: Thank you again for having agreed to this interview. This interview as I already stated
is all about you informing me. I will be asking questions mainly for clarity and like I
indicated there are no right or wrong answers. But I would like to start with a very
specific question, for how long have you been principal here?
Mr. C: I have been principal here for nineteen years.
R: Okay. South Africa is often referred to as a rainbow nation, a nation of diverse
cultures. Now can you tell me how inclusive of these diverse cultures would you say your
school is? I would like you to tell me how your school acknowledges this cultural
diversity – tell me about everything in the school you would say reflects this diversity, be
it classroom practice or anything at all. You have a very diverse learner population, you
have English speaking white kids, Afrikaans speaking white and colored kids, Chinese
children, Black children and so forth, you even have children from neighboring countries
like Lesotho; how do you see to it that each and every child in your school feels that
he/she belongs?
Mr. C. Mam I don’t think that we do very much. I think it’s much more about attitude
towards our learners. This is a school that’s been around for 130 years so we see the
Eunice brand or the Eunice concept as being important so a girl is a Eunice girl just as
you get a Grey boy or a Saints boy you get a Eunice girl, and the school provides a sense
1
of belonging which transcends background. So the girls accept each other as other Eunice
girls and that’s something that perhaps is different the moment they step into our school
every morning. So they come from diverse backgrounds but we were a single sex white
only school for a 125 years of our existence and in 1991 we were given the opportunity
by the previous government of opening our school to all races and the government went
out of its way to make it as difficult as possible. So what you had to do was to have a poll
at your school that was called a model B poll. Firstly you had to get 80% of your parents
to vote, which is a massive job. There are two parents to every child normally so it was a
large number of parents you had to get to vote. Secondly you had to get 80% of those
who had voted to vote yes to opening your school to all races. So we managed that easily
into the 90 percents, which meant that the community accepted that this was the right
way to go. And when we first started accepting Black and Colored girls it was a
wonderfully exciting challenge. It sounds unbelievable to speak like that for something
that happened just twelve years ago or fourteen years ago, but we welcomed the
opportunity to make education relevant.
R: Can I chip in? You say you were asked to have 80% of those who voted voting yes to
opening your school to all races and you managed that easily and got in the region of
nineties. So how did you do it, what exactly did you do to get the community to vote yes?
Mr. C: I think we tried to explain that for education to be purposeful it must be relevant,
and that these girls are going to live in the New South Africa and that we’ve got to
understand that we’ve got to prepare them for the transformation that would undoubtedly
come. And we got hold of principals of private schools throughout the country that had
already gone through this route. We got hold in those days of Winkie Direko who was a
colleague of mine, a principal at the time, we had a meeting with parents and we
answered questions and took parents along persuaded them that this is the way to go.
R: Will I be correct to say as a school you went on an advocacy campaign, as a school
you actively advocated for racial integration?
2
Mr. C: Yes that’s correct, without any doubt that is what we did. We were members of an
organization called ‘the open education foundation’ and we actually met as principals, it
was mainly English speaking schools that went in this direction, and it was in a way
forcing government’s hand even though they tried to make it difficult. Anyway I think
that the key factor is that you treat girls as girls and not as anything else. I think it’s quite
easy with girls it’s not as easy with staff. You know staff had been teaching for many
years and we are all in South Africa products of our upbringing and it’s not easy to
change overnight but really our black girls really made it easy for everybody to change.
R: Can I ask you, you just told me about the old government in 1991 that made things
difficult for integration, what about this new government that took over in 1994 what is it
that you’ve gotten from the department of education, for instance has there been any
effort to sort of assist the staff mainly to deal with different cultures. Has there been any
form of assistance from the department of education maybe things like workshops on
cultural diversity?
Mr. C: I think they have gone out of their way to provide information. Workshops we did
with private sector and through our own high profile parents, who were members of our
governing body or other school structures, who came in and helped us to appreciate
cultural differences and diversity in a professional sense. So we certainly had that sort of
help. But I wouldn’t say it was help from the education department as such. You must
remember that eh it’s, let’s say eh our schools and I am talking about this school in
particular it’s in a very difficult position because it is regarded as very advantaged. We
certainly are advantaged in terms of our facilities. We are advantaged number one in
terms of the quality and the commitment of our teachers, so that’s what makes us a very
special school, as are many other schools. But the English speaking schools in particular
opened their doors whereas the Afrikaans speaking schools didn’t do that at all. So some
of the Afrikaans speaking schools here in Bloemfontein don’t have ten Black pupils. It’s
in the ‘plate land’ where there was a space problem where all of a sudden a school that
had 800 now has 300 so they were forced to open their school to all races and that
became an Afrikaans section, which was white, and an English section, which was black.
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And that’s a recipe for disaster it’s a fact of life it’s a plate land situation so there are
other things that you’ve got to do to try and make that situation work. But in a school like
ours this is a truly multiracial school. You get other schools like let’s say Navalsig or
Brebner or CBC, which have changed to the extent that they have become completely
Black schools. And that’s something that happens. Eh Monica Burt is the famous
educationist who studied that. In the 80’s we spoke about the ‘burt factor’, which was the
idea of white flight. So once a school starts getting black pupils you get maybe five
percent, ten percent or twenty percent and after a certain percentage you start losing
white pupils. And it gets to a 50/50 and in no time it becomes a Black school. That’s fine
in terms of demographics for a school to change but it’s not the ideal situation. Both
black parents and white parents want a much more natural normal situation where people
can interact and really have an atmosphere for quality education. I don’t think the
education department appreciates our multiracial challenges at all. I don’t think we get
that appreciation we get much, much more pressure especially from trade unions, not so
much from the department but from unions and from the media about being advantaged.
We have a very long way to go in being successful in terms of employment equity. That’s
all we have a long, long way to go in that. And I think in a place like Bloemfontein, I
may be totally wrong, but in the interviews that we do it’s not easy to find suitable
qualified black teachers. We would move tomorrow and we have to, we have no choice
but our school has certainly been lagging behind in terms of that.
R: You say it’s not easy to find suitable black teachers, what would you say is the cause
are people not applying? What would you see as a “suitable black teacher”?
Mr. C: I think eh in a place like Bloemfontein I think there have been so many
opportunities for young black professionals that the top teachers have all just got posts all
over wherever they want. I don’t think we are attractive to top black teachers, to the very
best black teachers. The very best black teachers want to get moving in Black schools
where they can also become principals and heads of department and I think people
perhaps see this as a bit of a dead end. But we have had wonderful, wonderful applicants
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in terms of people who have done superb things in their own communities. But when it
comes to matric specialists in a subject in terms of showing that you can teach your
subject and get quality distinctions or quality results we don’t see that, we don’t see that
and that’s what we are looking for.
R: Has there been a conscious effort on the part of the department or yourselves to recruit
what you would see as good black teachers?
C: I think you must put yourself in the department’s position. Is the department really
wanting to get good teachers from the township and rural areas into an advantaged school
like this one, you know they are trying to upgrade and ideally they would like to have a
school that attracts the confidence of the community like Eunice does, in Mangaung or in
Botshabelo, that’s ideally what they want. So getting black teachers in your ex model C
schools it’s not, I wouldn’t say it’s been their area of focus.
R: Are you saying to recruit black teachers would be to take the cream and leave the
schools in the townships and rural areas with nothing?
C: Yes. And I must say my connection with the education department is through an
SMD, and our SMD’s are school management developers have taken a pride in this
school. They come here they take pride in it and they see themselves as guardians of the
quality that we have. And I have never experienced the department trying to break down
our school in any way.
R: Earlier you mentioned that the main thing about cultural diversity is the attitude. Now
do you have policies in place that would help determine those attitudes? I am thinking
here of a school policy on cultural diversity, multiculturalism or inclusivity if you may?
Are there structures that would sustain the continuance of whatever good you as a
principal are doing here once you leave? Do you feel the whole staff has the same attitude
as yourself?
5
C: I would like to think so mam, I would like to think so. You know we are eleven years
into a new constitution, into a new way of thinking and I think people certainly think like
that. When I talk about an attitude it’s obviously eh you know we’ve got eh half our
white pupils are Afrikaans speaking and the other half are English speaking. You know
the Afrikaners come from eh, you know they have chosen to come to an English speaking
school which shows that they are thinking people thinking ahead. They have chosen to
come to a multicultural school whereas they have got a school down the road, which is an
all white Afrikaans school. So our Afrikaans parents tend to be a little bit more politically
liberal which is unexpected. The English-speaking parents and the English-speaking
pupils often tend to be more politically conservative which is also unusual. So you
obviously get incidents, little racial incidents where people feel that they have been
offended or that there is something brewing here or that there is one girl who is
particularly racist. And I think the attitude that they need to have is what the Afrikaner
say is the “vrymoedigheid”, the openness to be able to come straight away and say “sir
this is what’s happening, this is this, this is that”. So I hope that someone else who runs
the school will be as experienced in terms of understanding that children need to be able
to speak their minds all the time. You’ve got to listen and listen and listen and listen. You
encourage them to say what they feel. I think that way you diffuse most serious problems.
I can honestly say we haven’t had any serious racial problems. We have had a couple of
years ago the use of the word ‘kaffir’ for example, and that’s something that you’ve got
to show from day one that it’s totally unacceptable. Although I really felt sorry for the
little girl who used the word like that because you know she’s been brought up like that
it’s not really her fault it’s the fault of her upbringing, but without making too many
waves we suspended her immediately that very day and she came back four or five days
later with her parents and apologized and there was very, very firm action.
R: So you are saying you take all racial slurs seriously?
C: Yes. I think if you allow girls to offend others in that sort of way you are going to
have situations where girls are just not happy being at school. You know we have a little
bit of racial or social engineering in our classes in as much as we make sure that our non
6
English speaking first language pupils are spread out in our five classes. So we have an
equal number of let’s say black girls, Afrikaans speaking girls in each so that it’s not just
first language English speakers and then second language Afrikaans speakers, you can’t
let them get into groups, we force them together. The same thing in the hostel we’ve got
twenty rooms in each wing, we’ve got hundred and fifty rooms and twenty of them on a
particular wing, and the girls get to choose their own partners. So sometimes we have a
black girl and a white girl together but usually the black girls share two to a room, usually
I mean that’s just a natural situation, but we choose the rooms. In other words we don’t
allow them to have a black side of a hostel and a white side of a hostel. So we choose the
rooms, they choose their partners. I mean you’ve got to promote integration actively,
you’ve got to expose them in groups in the leadership structures of the school and I think
the attitude of the school is absolutely critical.
R: Would you say this attitude that you are talking about is a management thing, or let’s
say a child has been called a racial name in class would the teacher be able to deal with
that? Are there procedures and structures to deal with that?
C: Yes I think so. There are no procedures or anything like that but I think teachers are
very, you know we have come a long way, but teachers are aware that any, eh the
possibility of a racial incident becoming an issue needs to be reported and dealt with. I
would hate for something to happen and then to know that the teacher knew about this
last week or the week before. So I think they are conscious that, you know, these things
land you in the newspapers, these things affect the confidence that the community has in
you. So you’ve got to deal with them. What I find difficult is the differences, the cultural
differences of our black girls and our white girls in our hostel situation. School is easy.
Hostel is twenty four hours a day and it’s different. And the parents’ attitudes are the
biggest factor that makes school management difficult. I’ll give you an example, for
example, black parents almost, I mean I’m generalizing terribly here, but black parents
come to a school like ours and we sit in an interview here and they make it clear that they
are here for their children to get the best education. They are very strict they make it clear
to me they don’t want their daughter to go anyway they want her to stay here and they
7
want her to learn. They don’t take them home on weekends except when they have to,
when there is a closed weekend. I suppose it’s a question of transport, it’s also a question
of, depending where they come from, they prefer to have their children here than to
expose them to whatever it is that they don’t want to expose them where they are. And
they also have this attitude that they think that if their daughters are at school they work.
Whereas the white community has a completely different attitude, they want to see their
daughters on a regular basis. So they come and fetch them on weekends, at least every
second weekend. It doesn’t matter where they live. With the result that our black girls
come here to the hostel and they are stuck here because their parents want them to be
here. Our white girls come here and they go home for weekends, they go to this one for a
Saturday they go to this one for a Sunday, they are always in and out of the hostel they
have a much freer type of existence because that’s the way their parents allow them to.
And then that causes a little bit of friction.
The black girls are the ones who are here every weekend, and when you get into trouble
in the hostel it’s normally in the weekend time it’s this and that. Our punishment system,
the punishment it’s you are not allowed to go home for a weekend and that’s the worst
punishment you can give a hostel girl. She can’t go home for the weekend. She has to be
in school uniform on a Saturday morning and she does some sort of community service
on a Saturday morning and she doesn’t go out of the hostel. To a black girl whose parents
are from Qwaqwa, who don’t come and fetch her except once a term, it’s not a massive
issue, she would be here anyway. And it’s just an attitude, which we find difficult to
work with because it gives the impression that only the black children are being
punished. The white girls will avoid that with anything they’ll do anything to make sure
that they can go home. And that’s something that we’ve been struggling with for
sometime. I also find that there is a massive, and maybe it’s just a generalization and it
maybe very superficial, but the black children live in a completely different world I mean
a completely different world to their parents. I find a lot of materialism. I find it very
difficult, because of my lack of experience, to deal with black boys. They come here
maybe for a school dance. I don’t have dances anymore because I cannot control the
boys. And they come here in hundreds and they have a different approach to school
8
discipline. They don’t appreciate the sort of discipline that we have and I find it you
know, I find it difficult. The boys who come here, I mean the brothers of our girls who
are perhaps in a university hostel or a technicon hostel we sorted that out now but three or
four years ago that was becoming a problem because the girls would get out of the hostel
for a day and go and stay with their brothers or their sisters in university type hostels and
that was a nightmare. I don’t know if you know what I’m trying to get to but I don’t
know that the black parents often realize what goes on in the cities when their children
are here. It just worries me that there is a culture of entitlement you know that the parents
must provide. You know I can understand girls not wanting to go to this university
(meaning Free State university) because the black girls will want to get far away from
their parents as possible, you know Pretoria it’s an Afrikaans university you know RAU
it’s another Afrikaans university, but they want to get away and the parents must just
provide. Whereas in the white community I think there is more of an openness and a
realization that this is what my parents can afford, I can’t go to Rhodes or to UCT or to
Wits I’ve got to go to Free State University and they understand that and accept that from
a younger age. Whereas the black children have a different approach, it’s just an
observation.
R: Now this type of entitlement that you are talking about do they bring it into the
school?
C: No we have very strict rules and our girls accept that. We don’t have that sort of
discipline problem.
R: Now that you have mentioned the parents, how is your SGB? Is it reflective of the
demographics in your school? Are all parents actively involved?
C: No not at all, and I have tried everything to involve black parents for instance. You
know we are in a new country and I find that so many of our parents are studying. They
are studying at night, they’ve got so much on their plates they are holding down jobs and
they study. We’ve got a black parent on our governing body, we’ve had one or two
9
before and they are only there because we’ve engineered it. We got them and said “listen
come here we’ll try and get support for you, we’ll get them to vote for you”, but no one
(meaning black parents) comes forward and says “listen this is what I to contribute or
want to do”. We get more black parents on our fund raising structures and when they
come in for a particular project but you’ve got to push to get them involved in school
structures.
R: What would you attribute that to?
C: I think there is a natural reticence that prevents them from getting involved. You know
we have a senior nurse in our governing body and that’s wonderful. It’s wonderful to
have that sort of input and you know it prevents a governing body from being an all white
body, which can say and write and do whatever it likes, whereas if you got a more
representative body it just raises the level of behavior. But I find that black parents are
generally exceptionally grateful for the commitment that teachers show and are very
supportive of school discipline.
R: You mentioned that you have Afrikaans and English speaking children, what is your
language of teaching and learning?
C: It’s English.
R: Now for one to get a matric one has to have two languages, do you also offer
Afrikaans and other languages as first language?
C: This is an English speaking school it’s an English medium school. If you come to
Eunice you’ve got to do English first language, everybody it doesn’t matter what color or
race, culture or whatever, everybody does English first language. We do Afrikaans
second language and we do, we do Sesotho third language and second language.
R: Oh you offer Sesotho second language?
10
C: Yes but second language is for those girls who perhaps, who perhaps just can’t do
Afrikaans. There are very few of them I think I have only two in matric this year, because
they have been out of the country or because they come from Lesotho. With the Sesotho
third language we get criticized for it, it’s always done as a seventh subject so it’s not one
of their six subjects, it provides an extra group for university exemption. So it often
means that this girl can keep maths and science because she has got an extra group that
will give her an exemption, so she can risk the more difficult subjects. And you must
remember that our black girls have never been taught to read and write in their own
language which is a problem, so at least the third language helps them to do that.
R: So this Sesotho third language, who offers it, is it offered by a first language speaker?
C: It is offered by a Sotho member of our staff.
R: You have black members of staff?
C: We have, in the primary school we have two we have one in the high school. We have
Mrs. Lebohang and she is our Sotho teacher she is a departmentally paid teacher and she
teachers our South Sotho.
R: Does she teach both primary and high school?
C: She is a high school teacher we lend her to the primary school a little bit.
R: Now about sporting activities, what kind of activities would you say dominate in your
school?
C: Swimming, we are probably the strongest swimming school in South Africa, and
hockey and netball, tennis, squash and athletics. Those are our main sporting activities.
11
R: How are the demographics in your school, culture and race-wise?
C: Thirty percent of our girls would be black including a small colored percentage, and
then we have a couple of Chinese children but the seventy percent would be basically
thirty five English and thirty five Afrikaans.
R: How is the participation in your sporting activities, do you find that all the girls
participate in most of the activities irrespective of their culture?
C: I think eh you know if you go to the township schools for black girls there is netball,
that’s it. I don’t think there is much. There is athletics and netball. So there are wonderful
opportunities here. We’ve got hockey so if they come through the primary school hockey
is a very skills based game, I mean we and St Joseph provide the Free State with a
constant supply of top black hockey players. So they come through our structures and
netball is the same. We also have a program where we teach our black girls to swim, we
actually teach them to swim.
R: I see. Have you ever had a black head girl?
C: We had our prize giving last night ( brings a photo) that’s our RCL and you can see
here this is grade eight, you can see one is a black girl colored girl, ant these are white
girls. Our head girl is an Indian this year, and we’ve had a few vice head girls and it’s the
first time that we have a black head girl. You know the black girls are more, if you like,
politically aware, they are more schooled in structures. So a school representative council
is something that they aspire to, they enjoy the sort of representation. I think the girls
appreciate that a black girl cannot be elected at Eunice without major white support. You
can see that there is a general respect for the need first of all to represent the country and
also for the sort of representation that black girls offer because they take it seriously and
they get involved in those structures as their parents don’t but the girls themselves
certainly do.
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R: You said earlier on that you have had incidents where there was racial name-calling
and you made an example of the word ‘kaffir’. Have you ever had an incident where a
black girl has called a white girl a racial name?
C: I wouldn’t say so. You know I find the Colored community in Bloemfontein is a very
small community, they all leave in the same area and they know each other almost too
well and they tend to fight quite a bit. Fighting with white kids I think it’s more a
question of physical threats not as much racial. Girls don’t fight easily physically but it
seems to be a little bit more common in a black sense that they actually fight, and we are
very strict on that sort of thing. But it’s the one thing that black girls use to frighten the
white girls when they are in trouble, you know, ‘I will get you’ and that sort of thing, and
it’s not so much racial it’s more a power thing. It’s just the threat of violence but we
don’t really have racial slurs from black girls to white girls, not that I am aware of.
R: I don’t know is there something else that you would like to tell me?
C: I think the black girls don’t have it easy because you know they are fine when they
walk in these gates. When they go out of these gates in school uniform, their own
community, they are confused about their own friends from the township schools who see
them in a different light. Even the public sees them in a different light. So I think it’s
difficult for them, they are under considerable pressure.
R: What do you mean?
C: Their own people see them as having sold out, you know, their own neighborhood and
township. I just find that they find it a little bit difficult. In the old days ten or twelve
years ago we used to let our school girls who used to go to Qwaqwa, we have a few
boarders from Qwaqwa, we used to let them travel in civilian clothes because they were
subjected to a bit of pressure being regarded as advantaged and better than us. So when
they traveled in public transport we would do that. But now it’s different people are more
accepting.
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R: Now that you have mentioned schools in Mangaung do you have any kind of
relationship with them? For instance do you have things like debates and so on that you
do together?
C: Yes there’s lots of sports contact and debating contact. We also try to make available
our facilities to them, but there is not much contact with township schools. From a
discipline point it’s so much easy to control if you have contact with a school next door
(mentions other ex model C schools) not schools from the township. I find the social
functions with the public a nightmare, it’s a nightmare.
R: Do you also have intercultural evenings where parents cook food from different
cultures?
C: No but we have cultural assemblies, you know, where we get our Chinese girls to
explain to us Chinese culture and dances and whatever. We have black girls who do the
same through music, through weddings, through funerals and they act them and they love
to cook for us. We have an African choir, which was started by one of our girls in 1996
and she still comes back and trains the African choir.
R: The name African choir, what does it imply? Does it mean they sing old “African
songs”, or what does it mean?
C: They don’t necessarily sing old African songs they do but they also sing others, but
it’s a group of black girls who sing mainly in the vernacular.
R: Oh it’s an all black choir?
C: Yes but white girls aren’t excluded, they can join if they want to but most times it’s a
completely black African choir. We’ve got what we call a chamber choir, which is a
small choir of the top and we’ve got another choir of maybe 80 or 90 girls and it’s
14
completely multiracial. Then you’ve got the African choir, it gives the girls something to
do and they do it very well.
R: When do they perform?
C: They perform at school functions. They perform at our Easter and Christmas
assemblies at our school birthday services they always perform with our school choirs.
It’s just a different cultural activity it’s not that they are excluded from anything at all.
It’s the richness it’s the diversity that works.
R: Thank you very much Mr. C. for your time.
C: It’s a pleasure.
The interview ended here and I left.
15
The interview takes place during the September holidays because this was the only time
that the principal could be available. This is an Afrikaans medium school. It is a
Secondary school for both boys and girls. I first request the principal that the interview
be conducted in English since my Afrikaans is not good.
R: Let’s start with a very specific question. For how long have you been principal here?
Mr. Brand: I have been principal here since 1998, but before that I had been teacher
here since 1985
R: So when the school opened its doors to other cultural groups you were already in the
school but you were not a principal?
Mr. Brand: Yes I was already here.
R: How did the school handle the coming in of other cultural groups?
Mr. Brand: You see this is a traditional Afrikaans medium school and it was almost lily
white but we are open and our school community it’s an open school community. The
white students in our school are open and they are willing to accept the new
dispensation so we haven’t go not one problem since 1994 when we move into this new
era. So it’s a evolutionary process here and at this stage I am not very sure but I think
we’ve got about thirty five to forty black and colored students here.
R: What is it then that the school is doing to accommodate this cultural diversity? I
would like you to tell me how your school acknowledges this cultural diversity – tell me
about everything in your school that you would say reflects this diversity, be it
classroom practice or anything at all. How do you see to it that each and every learner in
your school feels that they belong?
Mr. Brand: I think from the perspective of the staff as well as the governing body we
are committed to make a difference. I have got evidence here of a lot of things that we
have already done to help other formerly disadvantaged schools. We have an ABET
centre that we accommodate here and at one stage I think there we about 100 students
here that attended the classes in the evenings. Now the number has gone down I think
there are about 65 to 75. We also did outreach to other schools like Seemahale School.
Our management team invites their management team to visit us and we discuss for the
whole morning all kinds of problems from discipline up to stationary and all those
things. We have a relationship with each other in such a way that during the July
holidays, for the past two years, we accommodate their learners in Maths, in Biology
and in Accounting. So during the July holidays they come by bus to our school and
we’ve got teachers here and students that were formerly students of our school who help
them. We also in Biology for example, we give the school at ………some apparatus
that they do not have for them to use in their Biology lessons.
R: You mean learners from other schools come to your school for winter classes, is that
it? And they are taught by teachers in your school?
Mr. Brand: Yes as well as one of our former learners, in 2003 she was the top student
for the Free State and one day she came out to me and said she wants to give something
back to the school. So that is when we decided that she together with another student
teach the matrics of …….. in those three subjects with the support of our teachers in
2004 and 2005.
R: So when these learners from Seemahale come for these winter classes who attends
do they attend with learners from your school or what, do you sort of mix or integrate
them?
Mr. Brand: It’s during the holidays, it happens during the holidays.
R: Does that mean at that time your learners are not here? Do I understand you to be
saying the winter school is only for Seemahale not for your learners?
Mr. Brand: Ja. At another situation a few years ago they visited us with our own
students during the term for another information session. Our Accountancy teacher put
together a document of twenty pages and handed it out for those students and there was
an improvement of matric results for them in that year.
R: You mean for……….?
Mr. Brand: Yes. They improved a lot.
R: You mentioned that you have meetings with staff from…….., what is the purpose of
those meetings?
Mr. Brand: I think it’s more about the organizational administration set up for example
the minutes of school governing body eh school management team minutes,
communication with the parents. I have got here a file on communicating with the
parents so we show them all these things how to get your school community more
involved, so we discuss matters like that. This is more about teaching them how to do
things.
R: Would I be right to assume that this is about empowering each other or is there
nothing that they bring to the table?
Mr. Brand: Yes we learn from them as well, can you believe that? So I can go back to
my staff telling them you know we here at Kriel are genuinely privileged we must reach
out to all those people. I think we as a school decided to make this new dispensation
work, for example we organize a youth summit every year and we accommodate about
between thirty five and fifty schools from throughout the province and people that have
been guest speakers here were Mr. …….(minister of defense) Me …….(MEC
education) she was here and she opened this youth summit. The theme of the youth
summit this year was the “tsunamis of the youth”, and we discuss it with black and
white learners. They discuss how they can get rid of these tsunamis of the youth for
example HIV & AIDS and so forth, problems like that, discipline in schools, drugs and
all those things. Our school community is in the process of growing this thing of
working together to make things work.
R: You mentioned earlier that your SGB is very supportive. Do you have any black
parents in your SGB?
Mr. Brand: We are now in the process of drawing a black person in the SGB. We made
that decision early this year and me and that person will be coming together this week,
he is a person of color “‘n kleurling”.
R: You said you have about thirty five to forty black learners in the school now tell me
when you have parents’ meetings do the parents of these black children attend?
Mr. Brand: They attend. I can tell you this I think the percentage attendance of those
black parents is really high. We also have here a black man who is married to a white
woman and he attends all meetings and the child is not even his but he does it for the
love of his wife and the child. It’s a situation that does not lift eyebrows because he is
such a friendly person, I think quiet influential and so forth so we’ve got no problem
with him.
R: This person who is going to join the SGB is it a person who has been elected by
parents or has been recruited by you?
Mr. Brand: No he is co-opted. At this stage we co-opted three people, one white
woman, a white man and a black man. They were identified by the SGB. The procedure
that I followed was I spoke to the SGB and said we need more representative in the
SGB, and the chairman of the SGB said fine let’s go for it. I then asked the staff and
spoke to the parents then we came up we the names of the three people. Next year we
will be having an election so we want these people to work with the SGB and learn how
to do things in preparation for next year.
R: What is the language of learning and teaching?
Mr. Brand: It’s Afrikaans.
R: Do you offer other languages?
Mr. Brand: We offer English as a second language but there are a few about six learners
who take it as a first language and Afrikaans we offer as first language.
R: Is there a class for English first language or they simply register it as a first language
for examination purposes? What happens in grade eleven is there a class for English
first language speakers?
Mr. Brand: No you see they make a choice of whether they want to write English as a
first language or not.
R: What about other languages, for instance the African languages, is there any African
language that is taught here?
Mr. Brand: No, no, we do not teach any African languages in matric. But we do offer
South Sotho in grade eight and grade nine and with the implementation of the FET or
the National senior certificate we will handle South Sotho as well.
R: At what level are you offering it right now and for FET will it be first or second
language?
Mr. Brand: At this moment we do not have capacity for first language we offer third
language maybe we will go to second language I do not know. You know few of our
black students here are Sotho speaking learners. But they chose to come here and we are
glad that they chose to come to our school and at the moment assist them with the
language problem. But at the end of the day we do not have a problem according to
language and the question of instruction. Our staff is committed to help, so if a Sotho
speaking learner is in the class and there is a problem regarding something to
demonstrate the teacher will maybe put it in English or one of the other children in the
class will help. So I’ve got no evidence of maybe a black Sotho speaking child coming
to my office and telling me: “eh meneer ek verstaan nie, I don’t understand this
teacher” you know I haven’t got that there is no evidence of that.
But I’ve got a few other examples here of the things that we do to accommodate cultural
diversity. Our extra mural activities with Free State rugby, I am chairman of rugby for
high school association, we in collaboration with the Free State Rugby Union, we adopt
a school and we go out to them and bring them clothes. We also bring them to our
school and then we exercise together, as well as with our netball players.
R: So you also have netball at the school?
Mr. Brand: Yes we do, yes we do. We’ve got a lot of these kinds of things where we
help. We also have this project that we call ‘pen and pencil project’. We ask our
learners that if you have a lot of pens and pencils bring them to school and we put them
on a bakkie and we deliver them to Credence primary school (a colored school) to give
to the learners there. So we are active in those areas.
R: Tell me about your staff how many staff members do you have at the school?
Mr. Brand: At this moment we’ve got 33 departmental posts. We have the school
principal, two deputies, five heads of department and the rest I think it’s about 25, are
post level one teachers and at this stage they are all white. We are looking for, I can tell
you that me as well as the SGB are looking for teachers from other cultures, but this is a
very stable staff so they are not looking to move, we do not have a big shifting of
teachers. People are happy to stay here and work here.
R: Should there be a vacant post do you think the school would be open to appointing
an educator from another culture different from the dominant one here now.
Mr. Brand: Yes like I said I am looking yes I think I would try to do that.
R: Now let us talk about the school not necessarily about you only. Or rather if you
were to leave the school do you think this would happen – appointing a teacher from
another culture - and all the other things that you feel you are doing to accommodate
and acknowledge cultural diversity, do you think they will continue?
Mr. Brand: Let me tell you this, I am 100% sure that everything will continue. You
know why I think that? It’s because the concept that is in the school - of together we can
make this work - is shared by the staff and the SGB and our SGB is a very strong SGB
with clever people and they are open-minded. We are aware of the fact that in the new
South Africa me as principal I am a privileged principal. So the new South Africa is
working for me and I want to give back and for the children in our school it is natural to
mix with other races. You see we don’t have Chinese children in our school only
because language is a problem for them not because we do not want them. I mean they
struggle with English and Afrikaans would be too tough for them.
R: Can you tell me what kind of support, if any, do you get from the department in
acknowledging cultural diversity in your school? Are there any programs or is there any
form of training from the department?
Mr. Brand: Since I became a principal I have had a few SMD’s like Mr. ….. who is a
colored guy and he has arranged that we help the schools for the colored people in the
Southern Free State. So what we did then in September month we arranged to bring the
learners to Bloemfontein and have our teachers teach them the five subjects that we
identified. We identified math, natural science, biology, accounting and English and we
allowed those colored learners to make use of our boarding facilities. They pay our
teachers only fifty Rand a day to do that. Then another SMGD Mr. …..came to our
school and gave an inspiring speech to our matrics and it was so welcomed by our kids
that they asked me to get hold of that speech of Mr…... My current SMGD Mr….. also
assists us and attends all our meetings with the SGB and in financial terms the school
received this year for the first time R150000.00 for the matric results. But you know
when we want to get Seemahale here we arrange our own transport for them at our own
costs. We also arrange for bread and tea and coffee at break time and all that on our own
cost. We also hosted a national conference for a teachers union – for one of the SMD’s
– they stayed for a week in our hostels and they made use of our two halls. But for me
as ……… I don’t have a problem with the education department. I am aware of the fact
that they can’t just give money left right and centre but if there is money available for
me as a rugby coach, if there is money available from the side of the rugby union we
can develop players more speedily. So the same in education we also gave a few
computers that we did not use anymore to another school, I forget the name of the
principal and we also gave some clothing for….(name of the school) Special School.
For all those things we don’t get anything from the department of education.
R: May I interject? I would really like you to tell me about the support from the
department concerning acknowledgement of cultural diversity and affirming cultural
inclusivity and making all learners in your school feel that they belong.
Mr. Brand: Okay. But may I tell you something when I ask in the hall for the learners to
bring us tinned food for the other poor communities all the children bring something. So
I can say that I am privileged to work in a school where the children have a sense for
other people and that makes it easy for me to reach out.
R: Why do you think the children in this school are like that? Is there something that the
school does to instill the sense of compassion that you are talking about? Or the
children are simply reacting to the principal’s compassion?
Mr. Brand: I think they may be reacting to the principal but at the beginning of each
year I tell all my learners that we must respect each other and I must tell you that in our
school there is no evidence of racial incidents, sexual misconduct or things like that. We
haven’t got that. I think our disciplinary system in the school is working good and we
are inspiring each other. You know we’ve got a black learner here ………. she was
voted as one of our student councilors, voted on merit! (looks very surprised) So I think
we are busy creating this new generation of people and it’s not forced. The education
department did not force me to take in a certain amount of black learners, they didn’t
force me and I’ve got great respect for that. I think the process is working evolutionary
and I think it creates its own momentum and I think that’s the reason that all things are
going quite well here.
R: Earlier on you said something about hostels. Do you have boarding facilities here?
Mr. Brand: Yes we’ve got boarding facilities here and we’ve got black students in the
hostels as well. They come from as far as Boshoff, Dealsville and Koffifontein and they
are black people, ja Sotho and Tswana speaking kids, girls and boys.
R: You mentioned that you have rugby and netball, which other sporting activities do
you have in the school?
Mr. Brand: We’ve got fourteen different sporting activities that are being handled. They
are rugby, hockey, netball, tennis, cricket, chess athletics and some smaller sport like
gymnastics and so forth.
R: You also mentioned that you have never had any racial incidents in your school. Did
I hear correctly is that what you said?
Mr. Brand: Yes. No we have never had anything like that. Except that we got one
incident one day, one day since 1998 but it was a boy to boy thing. A colored boy and a
black boy but it was a problem that they were bringing from where they stay, Heidedaal.
They were fighting on the bus already that morning. I asked them do you want to be on
the front page of the Volksblad stating that there was a racial incident at our school? So
they said no, no. And the fight occurred about money ten rand or so. After that there
have been no incidents whatsoever. I think the children respect each other. You know
because of our boarding facilities about 20% of our learners come from the platteland.
They come from Senekal where ……. grew up, from Boshoff, from Colesburg and
Bultfontein;. so twenty percent of the learners in our school come from the rural Free
State. One may think that ‘hulle is a klomp boere’ but they know each other and they
come here together at the school and our core business is to teach them get learning of
high quality. If you buy into that all other things you will fall by the wayside.
R: I want us to go back to the issue of departmental support. When I asked about the
support you get from the department of education I was not necessarily asking about
financial support. What I want to know is as a people in this country we have been
living in one country by one may say worlds apart. It was when Mr. De Klerk was
president that schools like yours – ex model C – were opened for children from other
cultural backgrounds. Has the department ever come with things like workshops to
assist your teachers on how to deal with cultural diversity? Or has this just been left up
to the school to see what they can do?
Mr. Brand: If I may be quite honest with you I can say I have never attended a
workshop on how to deal with different cultural groups or anything like that. I think
what I did here was how I grew up. I’ve got a mother and father who also were teachers
and they taught me that I should respect other people. So it was also a learning
experience for me but I think it wasn’t a critical issue for me because I grew up in a
house where Selina (meaning the black domestic servant) was actually my second
mother and we respected each other. I remember my father bought her a home when she
retired and all those things, so in my environment it wasn’t an issue. So going back to
the question I think all new things sometimes cause a little bit of pain or insecurity but
if you keep your head cool and you manage the situation according to respect and
values I think one can come to a point where we can say we did quite well we are on
route to make this thing work.
R: How is the arrangement in the hostel? Does the school allocate rooms to learners or
do they do it themselves and does it reflect integration or are black learners by
themselves and so forth?
Mr. Brand: Eh we’ve got only one hostel for boys and girls. So I think the students in
the hostel are two in a room. I am not sure but I think there might be a situation where a
black student is room - mate to a white student. I know at the Free State University
there are some hostels that are for black students and another for white students, but it
was the decision of the students themselves. Here they can’t decide that because we
have only one hostel. In fact hostel accommodation has never been a problem for us at
the school.
R: Is there anything that you feel you have not as yet told me on how you promote
cultural inclusivity and sense of belonging among all the learners?
Mr. Brand: I read quite a lot and yesterday in the Rapport I picked up this because I
want to read it again. It’s about just when Nelson Mandela came into power. He said
today South Africa has almost three million Afrikaners who will no longer be
oppressors after liberation but a powerful, a powerful minority of ordinary citizens
whose co-operation and goodwill will be required in the reconstruction of the country.
This was written by Tom Fossil, he is an Afrikaans speaking person in the media. And I
can tell you that there is lots of goodwill within the Afrikaans community to make this
country work, with all the issues that we had to deal with. We are still the best country
in the world if you look at the TV and see what is happening in Israel, Palestine, Iraq
and London. I’ve got family in London. The best country to be is South Africa and
maybe the best province to be is the Free State. I think the Free State consists of mainly
black people that are not aggressive they are not racist we grew up with them the
Tswanas and the Sothos. I must tell you that there is a lot of goodwill within the
Afrikaans school community like ours. We instill in our learners that they must work
hard and they must have self respect and respect each other. If I can say this all my
Afrikaans speaking colleagues buy in this new South Africa that we will live in
harmony with each other in this land. The only thing that worries me that I don’t think I
have the capacity to do anything about is HIV. You know one of our workers buried his
brother and his brother’s his wife in a timeframe of two weeks. And you know to bury a
person, costs money and he came up to me asking me to help him. I couldn’t help him
out of the SGB funds, so me and my wife gave him a thousand rand. Here is a letter
(shows me what looks like a contract), you see but on the other hand he is loyal to me. I
am not afraid to work in the night here, they stay here we’ve got quarters for them.
Once in the term we make a braai for them because they work hard. So it’s HIVAIDS
that’s the problem and the other thing corruption and theft. I think government and the
education department they must be robust in handling that problem. But you know it’s
not so easy. So as a teacher I am sometimes worried about that, but I am a Christian so I
have hope.
R: I see. Thank you very much for your time sir.
Interview with the principal. The school has a roll of 600 learners and it starts from grade 8 to
grade 12. There are 26 educators and two administration clerks. The whole staff is white. The
only black people are the lady who cleans and makes tea and the people who work in the garden.
After all the formalities the interview proceeds as follows
R: My question to you would be as an ex model C school that some years ago used to be
exclusively for white kids now that you have learners from other racial and cultural background
how do you acknowledge cultural diversity and ensure inclusivity of the different cultures in
such a way that all the learners can feel that they belong? Tell me anything that the school does
to promote this diversity. It can be about the curriculum, teaching staff, sporting activities,
classroom practice or anything, anything at all.
Mr. Fourie: I think I need to start by mentioning that the school population is composed of
eighteen coloured learners and twelve black learners and the medium of instruction is Afrikaans.
So they have to adapt to the medium of instruction. For the coloured learners I don’t think is a
problem. I don’t have any problem of parents if they ask me if they can express themselves in
English or something like that. So there is no problem. The black learners eh I don’t know I
haven’t spoken to them in connection with their home language and how they accommodate but
they do adapt because we do have learners that already pass matric here. We have a learner who
passed here and is currently specialising in some musical direction and he is doing very well. We
have another leaner who is a coloured girl who also passed here she is now studying medicine at
the Free State university. This is just to show you that learners I mean the coloured learners do
well here. There are many that came before them these are just the recent ones. The lady that
works in the kitchen and makes tea for the staff here at school her daughter was also here last
year and she is doing well. She is Sotho speaking her surname is ............ When she came in here
to our school to do grade eight I asked her mother and father to come and have an interview with
me just to make sure that their child is going to cope well with Afrikaans as a medium of
instruction. I asked the teachers giving class to ................to tell me what is going on with her
with Afrikaans as a medium of instruction and I think she did not have a problem with English
but Afrikaans was surely a problem. On two occasions in grade nine and in eleven I asked
Martha and said listen it is not good for your child to be in our school because she is struggling
with Afrikaans and she said no she must write matric here and she did write matric here. Well
she passed Afrikaans at standard grade and her strong subjects were computer typing and
business studies so I think she is doing some secretary course now. We also had one time slot in
each of the four terms where I asked all the learners from cultures other than Afrikaans then we
had discussions listen to the problems they experience and see if we can do something if there
are any problems. The learners really appreciate this and they do tell me that we have a problem
with this and that. So I think it is really necessary to create some communication with the other
cultural groups to give the opportunity to say we experience problems with this and that.
R: If I may what kind of problems do they raise? Can you maybe give a few examples?
Mr. Fourie: It is never major problems that we have to address. It is usually the minor things of
white learners calling them names, but that also happens among white learners themselves. I
really do not have examples I can’t say the names that they get called.
R: In cases where learners have called each other names, especially in cases where it may have
some racial connotations what are the steps that are taken? Is it solved immediately or what
happens?
Mr. Fourie: Yes it is attended immediately as soon as they report the issue. There was one this
year I think last term between girls and I asked both of them the accused and the one that laid the
complaint to settle their case and then they had to settle there. Otherwise if it is not settled there
you have to call in the parents as well and go into the governing body and all those measures.
But luckily at this stage we are still able to solve these in the office between the learners and ask
the one who is guilty to apologise and then the other must accept or not accept the apology.
R: You mentioned that the medium of instruction is Afrikaans and that you also teach English. Is
this English taught as a first or second language? And can you also tell me if there is any other
language except the two that is taught at the school.
Mr. Fourie: English is taught as a second language and Afrikaans as a first language and Sotho
as a third language.
R: Oh you also offer Sotho. Who mainly takes it is it only the black kids or are there white kids
who also take it?
Mr. Fourie: Mainly the black kids yes. There will be one or two white kids who take it.
R: Now those who take it do they take as a seventh subject?
Mr. Fourie: No, no it’s part of the curriculum they take it as a sixth subject so some of the
learners do take three languages Afrikaans, English and Sotho.
R: Who teaches it, is it an African educator?
Mr. Fourie: No it is not taught by an African teacher but by a white lady but she speaks Sotho
fluently.
R: Amongst the staff do you only have Afrikaans speaking educators or are there any Englishspeaking educators as well?
Mr. Fourie: We only have white Afrikaans speaking.
R: In your parents meetings do you find the same participation among all parents irrespective of
cultural background?
Mr. Fourie: You know because the black parents, if I may call them black parents, are in the
minority they are very involved in the school activities, attending meetings for parents and so
forth. There are parents for example whose child is in a primary school and their child will be
attending our school next year in 2006 but they are already attending our meeting now although
their child is not yet in the school. So that’s the experience that I have with many of the parents,
they are very, very involved in our school. For instance next week it’s the budget meeting and if
you look at the percentage of the black parents it’s much higher than the white parents.
R: Can you then me about the composition of your SGB?
Mr. Fourie: The SGB is only white parents but they do co-opt black people. They co-opted Mr.
...............the former head of the ................ but he didn’t accept he declined.
R: Okay. Why was he co-opted? Was it a way of having people from other cultures?
Mr. Fourie: Yes he wasn’t nominated but he was a well-known person in the community here so
we thought he might do good for the SGB but he didn’t accept. I think next year it’s going to be
easier especially because there are these parents who are working at the vroue-monument and I
think with their attitude and their motivation the man will surely be in the SGB next year.
R: I am quite aware that you have few coloured and black learners but are they involved in any
sporting activities? And having said that which are your main sporting activitiees.
Mr. Fourie: Rugby and netball and one of our best netball players is .............., she played in the
national squad this year, she is very good. She is not at the moment one of the bright stars in the
academics but that doesn’t matter, and we had to provide her with clothes and everything. We
took her where she should be because she doesn’t have transport and all that staff but that
doesn’t matter because her attitude and her motivation is good so we help her out. But she is an
excellent girl excellent sports girl really she is fantastic.
R: Which schools do you normally play against?
Mr. Fourie: All the school that have enrolled in a specific league. And for next year I have
noticed that schools like ....................and ................have enrolled in the league as well.
R: When your learners meet with other learners say from the township and ...................., are they
able to mix with no problems?
Mr. Fourie: We started building contacts with other schools in 1994 and 1995. Dr. ............ was
principal at .............. and we used to invite him and we would go there for cultural evenings as
well. At that stage I think the contact was very good and the learners mixed well but at this stage
there is nothing going on.
R: If I may ask why did it stop?
Mr. Fourie: Well it stopped when he left that school. So the contact that is there now is only
amongst teachers not about sporting activities but about academics like showing people how this
and works and we do help with Science and chemicals for high schools in Mangaung.
R: I am hearing that the staff from your schools goes to help teachers in ex DET schools but
what about the staff in those schools is there anything that they help your school with? Do they
bring anything to this relationship?
Mr. Fourie: Yes the do visit our school and when we have meetings at principal level they ask if
they come and see how we manage the new time slot for grade ten. So we do reach out on
management level.
R: What about the department of education is there any form of assistance that you get from
them? I am not talking about the usual things like training on RNCS I am talking specifically
about acknowledging cultural diversity and making sure the school is inclusive of all learners’
cultural backgrounds.
Mr. Fourie: You refer specifically to cultural diversity let me first say this is our third SMD. The
first one was .............. the other one was Mr. .............until last year now it’s Mr. ................ We
are really going on well with them. It has really been a pleasure working with all three of them.
We don’t have any problems with them they understand how we do things here. Just this week
Mr. .............. was telling me about the policy on religious studies and so on and he said to me
“you know you are the only school that invites me to functions to their school”. Him and his wife
really attend our functions and we appreciate it and the too and I didn’t ask him he just told me
that they really appreciate it. I have a perception that he is very busy in the evenings I don’t
know why but I just think that but in-spite of that he attends our functions. His wife is a teacher
at that school next to Vista and after our prize giving function she said “oh I have learned
something that I want to include in our school”. So on cultural level it’s difficult to see exactly
what the input is from the department. We have a very big function at the Sand du Plessis theatre
every year around August. This year it was the second week of August. It’s a festival and we
invite all schools that are involved in cultural dancing. We invite people from the department of
education and the head of department was there this year we also invite the MEC. So we do
reach out on cultural level to other schools.
R: So at this festival which cultures are showcased there?
Mr. Fourie: All cultures that schools want to showcase.
R: Can you tell me about your RCL?
Mr. Fourie: You remember the coloured girl that I told you about and said she is now doing
medicine? She was on the RCL and the girl who was our head girl is also doing medicine and
she tells me that she is doing very well. She knows because they are at the same university.
R: How is the RCL elected?
Mr. Fourie: It is elected democratically. We stick to the guidelines from the National department
of education we do not deviate from that.
R: So this coloured girl was elected with no intervention from you or management?
Mr. Fourie: No we do not do that with the matric committee yes we do that but not with the
RCL. She was elected by other students without our intervention.
R; How is the matric committee elected?
Mr. Fourie: The matric committee is elected by the students but the RCL also serves on it. So the
staff will decide on the number and then this is where we can say we also want so and so to serve
on the committee.
R: What else would you like to tell me about your school?
Mr. Fourie: I think we are an academic institution that’s where we start from so we really try to
appoint teachers that are well qualified irrespective of race, culture or sex because it’s really eh
the main objective is to have a well qualified teacher in-front of the class. Then the bonus is if
that teacher can also help with extra mural activities in the afternoon and that is part of their job
description. If they are not sport orientated they have to do something with administration or
culture or anything at all. They have to be involved somewhere along the line in something in the
afternoon they cannot come here and teach from seven o’clock to two o’clock and then they are
finished and they go. For this reason we do have many things that we have achieved at our
school for instance this year we had a matriculant of the year and we also have a lot of learners
that have distinctions in their subjects. But we also help those who experience problems for
instance in subjects like Math we usually make use of September holidays (to give extra classes)
and this helps learners from other cultures like your black and coloured learners. And this comes
spontaneously from the teachers they are not forced to that. Eh we also reach out to poor
learners. This year we had a very successful effort to get hold of some clothes and tinned food
and that was only for the learners in their school not fro the learners outside. That was very
sensitive because teachers had to identify those learners whose parents do not work and make the
food available to them. We also reached out to those who could not buy their own school clothes
or textbooks. So we had to have activities to raise funds to assist them.
R: By law if parents do not work you have to exempt them from paying school fees, do you do
that?
Mr. Fourie: Oh ja. We raise funds to buy them school uniform.
R: The extra classes that you mentioned you said they are a great help for black and coloured
learners how about white kids don’t they benefit from these classes?
Mr. Fourie: They do benefit but not many of them attend these classes because you see not many
of them have problems but well there are those who do have problems.
R: Well I think that’s about all unless there is something that you really would like to tell me that
you feel your school is doing to reflect cultural diversity.
Mr. Fourie: I think we covered all the aspects of the school. I think I have to make a special
effort just to get more information about the other cultural backgrounds I’m not on top of that
really and that is a lack in own management system I think I have to address that. There was
another lady from Life Orientation I asked her to return because she was from the department
she hasn’t returned as yet I hope she will come back maybe next year. I said to her: “I want to
know more about your culture certain aspects that I can take out of the teaching situation and say
how do you people think about this and this so help me”
R: What about other teachers for example you have a teacher who teaches Sesotho isn’t she
knowledgeable on that culture?
Mr. Fourie: You know I was in Wepener and those white people there really they are on top
when it comes to the culture of Black people because they arrange some meetings over the
border with Lesotho residents for example on farming issues or whatever. Those white people
are really on top of the culture I learnt something from them for sure. And I don’t think
somebody like our Sesotho teacher here is really on top of the culture, she knows something
about it but not as much as you would expect her to know for instance if you compare her with a
black lady, a Sesotho speaking lady no, no she is not on top of the culture.
R: Just for interest case how did she come to know Sesotho did she study it at school or
something?
Mr. Fourie: No, no she comes from Bethlehem in the Eastern Free State and she grew up in a
farm that is how she got to know Sesotho.
R: Okay. Thank your for your time sir.
INTERVIEW WITH MR. FRANK – MORRISSON SCHOOL
The researcher announces herself to the lady at reception and is told to wait a little bit in
the foyer for the principal. I use that time to go round and look at the pictures in the
foyer, in the passage as well as around the whole administration block. The walls are
adorned with pictures of principals and students of past years. They are all white! There
is only one picture of a black girl. Her surname is definitely not a South African surname.
I try to read it but I can’t. I move to the corner where it is dark, but no too dark because I
can see other pictures. There is a picture of the President of South Africa and that of the
MEC for Education. It is strange to me that these two pictures are in such a dark corner
it is as if they are hidden from the public. The interview takes place at the school, in the
principal’s office. The principal is a white Afrikaans speaking male in his late forties.
R: South Africa is often referred to as a rainbow nation, a nation of diverse cultures.
Now can you tell me how inclusive of these diverse cultures would you say your school
is? I would like you to tell me how your school acknowledges this cultural diversity – tell
me about everything in the school you would say reflects this diversity, be it classroom
practice or anything at all. You have a very diverse learner population, you have English
speaking white kids, Afrikaans speaking kids, Chinese children, black children and so
forth, you even have children from neighboring countries like Lesotho; how do you see to
it that each and every child in your school feel that they belong?
Mr. Frank: Thank you mam. Let me give you some background first of statistics,
although I can’t give you the correct statistics. At the beginning of the year as you know
we have to send in statistics based on gender and race and age and everything. At
Morrison now at this stage I think we should be about between 40 and 45 % if I can call
them white, then about 55% somewhere there are African let’s say rather black and the
other 20% I didn’t even look at my Maths now, the other 20% if I may put them in one
group and I don’t like putting people in boxes but if I put them in one group it’s your
Coloured, Chinese, Indian, Oriental that group of learners. So we are fairly integrated and
I must say it’s been for a long time. Interesting enough the year before last year we had –
because we are a combined school primary and high school, eh we start from grade 1 up
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to matric and at the end of the year we give special attendance certificates to girls who
spent their twelve years school career at Morrison from grade1 to grade12. So two years
ago my vice head girl was the first, if I may say so, black girl who received that
attendance award. She started here in grade one and matriculated here and she was vice
head girl also. She started with the head girl also, the head girl was …….. and this was
………….., I don’t know whether you know ………….., his daughter. So what I am
trying to say is for 14 years now the school has had – at least 14 years – an integration
programme. When the school moved here in 1971 to these premises we had only 250
learners in the school. In ’76 the school was sold to the department it was a private school
prior to that, now we are a fully-fledged departmental school. Interesting enough it was
sold in 1976 it was a fore-runner of the model C schools because it was sort of between a
private school and a public school and eventually the model C schools went the same
route and now we have only public schools and private schools nothing in between so we
are completely a public school. I would say for a number of years more than 14 years
there was a programme of integration here, because there was space not a lot of space but
space so we went up from where the schools started on these premises 30 years ago from
250 to our present number of 465 learners, and mostly I think with the intake of learners
from other cultural groups. It would be interesting to look because I think even within
that if we say we are multicultural we can also say there might be Xhosa and Sotho and
Afrikaans speaking and English speaking and Greek and a number of people. We also
have exchange programmes with other countries, we bring even girls form other
countries to our school for a term or for longer. We have got Lesotho kids you can say is
another country we got kids from Botswana and other provinces, so we have a big
mixture of learners here. If we look at success, I think I must also say that it’s a small
school, only 465 girls from grade 1 to 12. Smaller classes and I think one can also say
proper structures at the school. I think one must not make too much of an issues about
multicultural school, but one must be sensitive about different needs because if you deal
with people from different cultures I think in the old days mistake that people made was
to think but the Western culture is better than the African culture and I think its only
because people didn’t know about certain aspects of African or other cultures, because
we were never exposed to that in the old apartheid South Africa. I think if one can learn
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from other cultures you can become so much richer in the process but even if you do not
agree with what is happening in other cultures you must have respect for their believes or
for the believes of other people. You see I mustn’t make a mistake of talking about us and
them, so I must not say ‘their’ it’s actually a wrong word – for other believes. I think if I
may come back to the school, interesting the school is turning 131 years old this year it
was started by the Anglican church by nuns who came out to start the school and because
of that when the school was sold 30 years ago it was on the basis that the school retain its
ethos and traditions and that’s why although were are a state school we still have a chapel
on campus. We have got a full time chaplain and we start everyday for 15 minutes which is not part of our official school day – everyday with assembly in the chapel where
there is a reading done by the girls, a prayer, a short harmony by the chaplain and we sing
we’ve got the organ and everything. Interesting it’s not compulsory at this stage but all
the girls go to chapel even the Moslem girls and Jewish girls and girls from other faiths
also.
R: Did I hear correctly you said it’s not compulsory?
Mr. Frank: It’s not compulsory. It’s not compulsory although we do say in our code of
conduct that people must realize that this is a faith-based school and that if they come
here they must also accept that that is the ethos of the school. So we say it’s not
compulsory because it’s unconstitutional to make it compulsory. But at this stage we
expect learners to attend but if they do have a specific problem we won’t force them to
go.
R: Have you ever had a case where a learner did not want to attend?
Mr. Frank: In the 4 years that I have been here I had one parent who came to me and was
a Seventh Day Adventist and I think the biggest problem that he had was mainly because
of activities happening on Saturdays, that is one difference they had because his Sabbath
is on a Saturday so it’s difficult for them if things are happening on Saturday and then he
said chapel also. When I explained what we were doing and how we were doing it,
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because we doing… eh we are a Christian school but based on the Anglican eh traditions.
Even though not even our chaplain is Anglican I’m also not Anglican but we respect the
Anglican tradition of the school. When I explained everything and said listen but we are
actually exactly the same and he accepted that. So it was a discussion and it was solved
without any problems, it was resolved. I think that girl is in matric this year and she
started here in grade 4 so she has been here for a long time. I think what is important and
I would like to read to you our vision and mission statements because there we say
specifically “…….. is a successful multicultural English medium Christian girl school it’s actually a mouthful that we are saying there - with a long and distinguished base in
the Free State”. The vision is to promote the development of independent, skilled and
confident young women who are able to lead happy and fulfilled lives and to contribute
constructively to South Africa and the wider world. And our mission is to provide an
excellent environment for academic, sporting and cultural achievement while nurturing
the emotional development of the girls in a caring environment. Emotional caring is very
much a spiritual sphere for me. Based on our Anglican foundation the school develops
the spirituality of the girls and staff and fosters its expression of the work of the school
community. That is why we say we are multicultural. Almost our first ‘statement we are a
successful multicultural’, so I think eh for me that is we must first show intent that we
want to be successfully in what we do in being multicultural, in being a faith-based
school, but accepting differences even on religion to accept differences. I think with that
structure the girls can function properly. As I was saying we are a girls-only school it
makes it maybe a bit easier. I must be honest we haven’t had problems based on race, on
gender it’s easy (uncomfortable laugh from Mr. Frank). Interesting once I had a fight
between two parents but another problem let’s take boys for example it’s easy boys will
always fight. If two boys fight it’s fine, but if one is – let’s call it black and another one
let’s call it white – it’s a problem, why they were fine they won’t fight because of black
and white, one must be careful if in the fight they start using derogative language because
that will .. in Afrikaans they say ( something is said in Afrikaans which I cannot make
out). So if you have certain perceptions and ideas and things that you hear at home and
other places then you will start saying things like that when you get into a situation where
you are in confrontation with somebody else. We’re fortunate we haven’t anything like
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that here and if something like that did happen we follow a normal grievance procedure
and make sure that it is tackled immediately. I think a lot of our lessons that we do in
chapel in the morning are based on the Christian faith on acceptance of other people on
love on compassion of treating other people properly, love your neighbor those kinda
things. I think a lot of our lessons are aimed at that and I think therefore it is all of a
whole attitude at the school. Further to the school, you know I have been involved with
other schools also and it is interesting. I think that there is a lot of goodwill in the Free
State and acceptance of roles also. The interesting thing you know what we picked up
from some of our girls who went to university, because they are so happy here is not a
black white issue. I even saw it now when we elect our RCL, it’s not like a block vote
where you can see wow there is a group of girls from one group trying to push a girl.
They vote for the best candidate it’s always been like that. When some of our girls go to
university they sometimes battle with perceptions of other people who do not come from
multicultural schools but unicultural schools, from a whites only or black only school.
Because they are so used to mix with anybody that some other people will frown upon
them and say “listen but how can you be friends with that one so what do you mean by
that one? It’s my friend”. They don’t realize that it’s a person from another culture. Just
lastly I want to add that I think that your own culture is still important you don’t loose
your own culture or identity by being in a multicultural group. My personal opinion is
that culture is dynamic and by seeing what other people do you take from them what you
think is important and you can make it part of yourself or your culture. But you
sometimes see more value in what you believe in or what your cultural values are by
making comparisons with other people or so as long as it is based on respect. If I say but
this is the way that I do it if someone else does it in a different way I must still respect his
way. And such is culture I mean it is just beliefs it’s not to say that we are in
confrontation because of that.
R: Now can I take you back a little bit, you mentioned that you had a black vice head girl,
how do you do your elections? Is it learners themselves or the staff who choose who must
serve on the RCL? How do you do it?
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Mr. Frank: We do it according to the law. There is a specific regulation that is part of the
Schools Act. Schools’ Act says a representative council of learners must be elected and
that only learners can elect learners. I think because of the old prefect system they had
you know to start deciding on that. So only grade 11’s can vote for grade 11’s, grade 10
for grade 10’s grade 9 for grade 9’s. So we’ve got that system here with the grade 8’s
voting for 8, 9 for 9, and 11 for 11. We do have at our school also a control system where
the other grades also vote for the grade 11’s just to see what the feeling is amongst other
girls, because what you get you’ve then an RCL that’s elected, we’ve got a majority. I’ve
seen girls do form a majority but it’s part of the constitution for the RCL that was
properly drawn up in consultation with all the procedures and everything. Maybe we
make a mistake, I don’t want to say a mistake, we still eh mention the name head girl it’s
actually the chairperson of the RCL and the vice chairperson of the RCL. I have got no
problem and we follow exactly the procedure there. Some schools have a separate RCL
from the prefect body, we don’t have it we’ve got only an RCL body but eh the
chairperson of the RCL is still sort of regarded as a head girl. But it might happen at a
stage that if the school votes differently eh that the head girl can be somebody separate
from the RCL chairperson, which is not an ideal situation it has never happened like that.
So the grade 11’s elect their own representatives and as soon as we’ve got an RCL they
elect their own chairperson and I must say until now our girls have been very good at that
because I check specifically on the voting for all the grades, grade 11’s and the RCL we
have never had a problem it’s always been the same so the RCL elect a chairperson and
therefore becomes the head girl.
R: Now what about your staff provisioning, do you have people from different cultural
backgrounds as you have in the learner population? For instance do you have any Black
or Chinese staff members?
Mr. Frank: We are busy now specifically with eh equity policy. Interesting because we
employ our own staff and workers and the governing body is then regarded as employer.
Currently we’ve got 51 staff members and as soon as we’ve got more than 50 staff
members you must have an equity plan and we are just busy. I’ve got a plan on my
6
computer at my desk already. It must just be accepted by the board to be called a formal
policy, it’s a governance policy. So we are busy with that. We committed ourselves to
make sure that we do transform our staff also. Interesting enough we must be very honest
we just appointed two heads of department and we went out head hunting. We tried to get
people and eventually, I will say, unfortunately those people were not people of color,
were not African people or black people it was white people. In the process I was 100%
sensitive and made a specific effort when we started the process of interviews and when
we had to make decisions. When I saw what direction was going and we had all the
unions even SADTU I stopped the process and said “okay listen I must say that we are
committed to transformation at the school we’ve got to look at the black candidates
specifically”. And it was at the end the agreement of the whole panel that at that stage the
black candidates that we had, that had applied and were short-listed, were not of the
caliber that we could appoint, which is a great pity and I’m really honest about that. In
our total teaching staff compliment we’ve got two black teachers, which is not enough.
We’ve got two lovely ladies eh the one is eh (seems not to know the name) she was in
1994 at …………..and she was in matric, she was the top student of the old DET,
remember it was still DET, of the DET in the Free State. She was ………… and that was
also an indication that we are doing something. She is now ……….., she is married to
……………who works for HR in the department. And ……..is also our black staff
member. We have also taken a decision that even in our hostels we would like to employ
African wardens because there are specific needs, sometimes your cultural groups have
specific needs also and we need to address those needs. So we’ve got a specific policy
that we would like to ensure transformation in our staff our teaching compliment also.
Like my chairlady of the board said to serve as role models so that people cannot say oh
black can only work in the kitchen or in the garden only, and things like that they must
have role models. Our chairlady of the governing body is Dr…….. a lovely lady and eh
she is doing very good work on the board and Dr……. she is also one of our board
members, she was elected last year.
R: Can we go back to the issue of teaching staff? These two black teachers, what do they
teach? Which subjects or learning areas are they responsible for?
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Mr. Frank: Eh Mrs. M. teaches Sesotho specifically. And I know that people will
probably say you only appoint black people to teach Sesotho, but we took a decision that
we’ve got to teach Sesotho, secondly what we said is that our languages English,
Afrikaans and Sesotho must be taught by first language speakers. So she is specifically
for Sesotho. We brought in Sesotho about 4 years ago, I actually insisted on that because
I had it like that at my previous school also. We brought in Sesotho from grade 5 to grade
9 and allocated more time to Sesotho together with Afrikaans and English to make sure
that we could become a trilingual school, to give proper opportunity for learners to
develop their Sesotho skills also. The challenge eventually was in trying to divide classes
in different ways or so. You’ve got girls who can speak Sesotho and girls who can’t
speak Sesotho. We’ve got same in Afrikaans and what we are trying to do is to make sure
that everybody can speak Sesotho but also in a way that those who can speak Sesotho
already can get an opportunity to develop their skills even more. Because we are a small
school unfortunately we investigated the possibility of bringing in Sesotho second
language or first language together with Afrikaans first language and keep English as first
or mother tongue but there was not enough girls and for financial purposes it would be
too expensive. What we do then is offer Sesotho in the afternoon either on second or third
language level to the girls as an additional subject a seventh subject. Mrs S teaches
business economics up to matric, accounting grade ten and 11. She is also a qualified
math teacher but then she was appointed for other two subjects and then we had two math
teachers already in the system.
R: Earlier on you said that one needs to be sensitive to different cultural needs. How do
you then ensure that all staff members are sensitive to cultural diversity? I mean they also
have to interact with learners from diverse cultural backgrounds. It seems to me that we
are talking about you as an individual, how do you ensure that this cultural sensitivity that
you talk about is not a personal thing but a school thing? Would you have maybe a policy
on this?
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Mr. Frank: There are two ways. It all starts with the learners it could be self discipline
and the staff or with anything. Actually I think there are two things, one it can be forced,
the other it can be a process of the right attitude and also buying into that. Okay on the
force side we’ve got our mission statement of the school. We’ve got our policies. We
make a statement to say this is a multicultural school, so it’s either you buy into that or
go, something like that (uncomfortable laughter). And I don’t like the forced part but I
also think that it must be in place so that anybody associated with the school must be
aware that there is a law in the school also like the constitution. There is a law to follow
that and it is illegal not to follow that. That is part of our code of conduct, of our
constitution of our school to make that statement. Like now it’s on paper, it doesn’t help
to be on paper it also has to be in the hearts of the people. Again because of the kind of
school – the school is faith-based – so because of the messages that we use in the chapel
and in class it becomes part of the lifestyle of the school. I mean it’s an attitude thing. I
think a lot of problems between different culture groups it’s about perceptions because
there’re these old perceptions that if you are Chinese you’re this, if you are Italian you’re
mafia, and those kind perceptions, it’s wrong. I think the more you get to work with these
people from different groups the more you realize that we’re actually the same. So yes we
work on that, we’ve every morning a chapel assembly but it’s not to say we just address
that in chapel but these are the kind of messages that we do there also. We use
specifically our Life Orientation for a number of things like HIV & AIDS. I am so glad it
has become a compulsory subject but I think they must put more emphasis on that. But
nevertheless those are the life skills that you need to acquire to be effective.
Eh since I came here we’ve never had a programme of bringing in people here to say this
is the Sesotho culture and that is not. At my previous school we did that. Even at a school
I was before that in the early years of let’s call it integration we did that. To ask a
Mosotho to come and speak to us and say listen this is what the people are all about. That
is where I heard the first time when some people say just be careful if an African child
enters your office they will sit down immediately because they are not supposed to be
higher than their superiors and they won’t look you in the eye, you see those little things.
I am not sure whether it’s still like that. So there are all those culture things. But I think
9
one must be careful if an African child enters my office to believe that she will sit down
because it’s her culture because it’s such a lot mix of cultures now. Like my very good
friend …..(mentions a white man) who speaks good Sesotho and when he dreams he
dreams in Sesotho, that’s what he told me. So he came in a meeting where there were
black people and he started speaking in Sesotho and the people were from West Africa.
It’s like a lot of people say they are color-blind. I doubt it. I also used to say I am colorblind. I’m not color blind because sometimes, it’s like gender I don’t think it’s sexist if I
enter a room I’ll say ladies first and for me it’s the way I was brought up and I don’t
mean anything bad by that. Whereas I was told in some of the African cultures a man will
walk in first so that he can see that it’s safe inside. That’s what I say that you can’t be
completely color-blind because if I am a white lady and a black man walks in front of me
I shouldn’t say but listen you’re rude you must say ladies first because that is his culture
and if he allows me to walk in first I must also accept that. I think that is the difficult one
to accept in our system to be sensitive but not to say because these are African they will
react in a certain way, because this is a boer he will do that or because this is a Zulu he
will be like that. These are stereotypes.
R: Can I rephrase what you are saying so that I should be sure that I understand what you
said? You are saying you don’t believe in separating color or gender from a person
because color and gender are part of who the person is, so if you do not see them you will
not see the person. In a way what you are saying is that see and acknowledge that this is a
black girl from the township or whatever the case maybe. Am I correct?
Mr. Frank: That’s correct.
R: You speak mainly about attitudes and how you as an individual feel about
acknowledging cultural diversity, but what I would really like to know is whether there
are processes in place that ensure the acknowledgement of diversity by other members of
the school community even in a case where you might leave the school. Would there be
continuity or sustainability of whatever you are doing?
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Mr. Frank: This is what I am saying people should be sensitive. You can’t be color-blind
but you have to be sensitive. I think what we do also by bringing in teachers like Mrs. M.
we have more of sharing different things and we learn in the process. I still say, if I can
say there are white teachers who are afraid of teaching at a black or multicultural school
or black teachers afraid of teaching in a white or multicultural school. But all I can say is
that we don’t do those things anymore brining people because we work on principle. We
say listen this is a successful multicultural school. We are sensitive to the needs this is a
caring school. It’s a policy, it’s a principle. Apart from not being color-blind we also say
on the other hand we’re equal we’re all human beings we’re all the same. I think that has
made things a lot easier and manageable.
R: Okay. What about your sports, which sporting activities are dominant in the school? I
have seen on the walls you have hockey, but do you also have things like netball?
Mr. Frank: Our main winter sport is hockey and we’ve realized that one must not have
too many activities. We started with netball we also started with basketball. And I must
say there, I’m very honest, hockey is regarded as more a white sport than netball, but I
think it comes from the primary schools because we do take a lot of girls in the high
school level. I think one must be sensitive to the realities of South Africa also and that is
at a lot of let’s call it township schools they will have netball a course because a netball
course physically is very easy to have than a hockey field. It’s difficult to have a proper
grass hockey field. I must say we have, I won’t say an outreach programme but we’ve got
Saturday hockey clinics here at the school and we nowadays get lot of learners from the
township and from ………. to keep them from the township and they love playing
hockey also. It’s like swimming also somehow there is a perception that black girls can’t
swim but there is no physical difference between black girls and white girls. Again look
at the number of swimming pools in the traditionally white areas and in the traditionally
black areas and I think that’s where it came from and we’re busy working on that in our
school also. Just interesting I need to tell you at this stage you know you must also look
at learners they love to manipulate. Some of the girls will say they can’t swim because
it’s not good for their hair it’s not good for their extensions and everything and I just as
11
Thato and say is it like and she says nonsense, and I just say hei listen you’re taking
chances. So they are very quick in using things if it suits them. We also offer tennis and
squash. I mean our tennis captain if I am not mistaken if …………. lovely girl and she is
now in grade 10 and I know that she will be our head girl in grade 12 not because she is
black but because she is a strong leader. She is one of our students who went on an
exchange programme for grade 10. She was in the primary our junior head girl and her
sister now is in grade 7 and she is also a leader at primary. They are from a lovely, lovely
family.
R: You said earlier when speaking about governance that ………… is chairperson of
your board and also that ……….. is a member. I just want to know how do you do it
because one is often told that it is difficult to get black parents to participate in school
activities.
Mr. Frank: Interesting it is a fact. Again I hate to put people in boxes and say that black
people are not supportive and everything, but eh it is a fact we are actually looking at
investigating that. We are busy with a survey amongst all our parents to look at the level
of participation. I must say what has happened now lately with a lot more of black
parents becoming part of the systems at meetings and everything at some schools people
are elected only because they are black I think one must be very careful of that. That has
never been the case in our school, but I don’t know how we do it. …………. was a long
serving board member, he was a board member when I came here and he made valuable
input. Sometimes we battle with issues like how are we going to handle a sensitive
cultural issue and he was very valuable, I have heard even before I came in, in addressing
those issues and deciding how we are going to go ahead in making sure this is a
successful multicultural school. Yes I want all my parents to be involved. There was a
perception that black parents are not as involved as they should be. The perception was,
and I’m telling the perception as in discussions what people mentioned, that some of the
black parents who come from the townships feel that they didn’t have the opportunities
for proper educational eh advancement and feel that they will not feel comfortable in the
presence of more learned people in a meeting, eh which I don’t think is the case. I think
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educational levels will be very equal. I just want to say I also believe that when you take
in people you take anybody in it doesn’t matter whether they are from a squatter camp or
from a doctor’s house. And I think you must take girls from all levels of society. The
other perception which I want to share with you was also mentioned at this stage is that
there is a lot of pressure nowadays on a lot of businesses with employment equity and a
lot of your African people and women in general become more and more involved in
management positions which takes them away from the traditional and wrong perception
that women must be at home with the children. Then I think because of those pressures a
lot of people become more and more involved in positions where they do not have time
either with their children or to come to school. I must say at this stage that we’ve
identified people, black people also to become part of committees and structures
otherwise they are too involved in their businesses. The expectations of people on
management level are very high and I think that has had an effect on the availability of
people in certain positions. I’m honest I was at a party the other day with an Afrikaans
group and somebody said we do not have enough Afrikaans students going into teaching
anymore there is going to be a shortage of teachers. I said listen if you are too crock
about groups the perception at another meeting that I attended was that there is a shortage
of black teachers because a lot of your very good black teachers are now drawn into
companies and at other levels because they were the ones that had the opportunities to
study and advance their studies. We are going to have a serious shortage of teachers
black, Afrikaans, English because they all go to high positions now. That’s what I am
saying that it is also because of vocational reasons that a lot of black parents might not be
involved.
R: My last question would be do you get any support from the department, not on things
like RNCS but on issues around multiculturalism and the school being inclusive of the
cultural diversity here.
Mr. Frank: Our clinical answer would be no. Interesting what I was saying, just
remember that the process started before the 1994 elections. We in 1991 started the
process of integration and we had meetings amongst ourselves and we shared ideas about
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how to go about. I mean we would ask each other things like listen what do we do with
the language and things like that. But on support I won’t say constructive and lately also
my personal feeling is not constructive. I need to tell you one thing a multicultural school
although I said all these things is not always that easy because you are so sensitive and
careful not to have a racial incident. You are so afraid of something like that happening.
Some of the Afrikaans schools for instance only have learners whose first language is
Afrikaans in that I would say they are mono-cultural. Even in the township I have heard
of schools that take only Tswana children or Xhosa children. A multicultural school is
not easy, like in our school we have black learners Afrikaans and Chinese whose first
language is not English but we offer English as a first language and the language of
instruction is English and there is no support for that. Can I tell you because of my
culture and the communities that I move in I know that a lot of schools are afraid of
becoming multicultural because of lack of support from the department. I must say I
don’t want to compromise my colleagues but I’ve got a lot of discussions with my
colleague Andy. Eh we think alike and about our transformation programme and we
always say we believe that transformed schools, I don’t say they must be favored but I
don’t think they get the support from the department that they deserve. At this stage, I
don’t want to mention names but there was a school, which I think has reversed their
transformation. Just remember I think although we do have a lot of good work amongst
learners there is still a lot of perceptions amongst our people outside. Then you get a
school that as soon as you get taking black learners you get what you would call white
flight. And it is happening. Even here I must be honest I have had parents who took out
their kids to another school because that school is whiter than this school. Well good luck
to them if they do have those perceptions I don’t want to have them here anyway. But on
the other hand it will be a challenge to change those perceptions, which I think we have
done. I mean we’ve got girls here from Sweden, we’ve got girls from so many cultures
we had a German girl here last year. We’ve got a girl from Croatia, at this stage, who
applied on the inter-net to come to the school. Our vice head girl for next year is a girl
from Sri Lanka, they have been in the country for some years now. Our other vice head
girl is ………., Mr. .………. daughter, a lovely girl. The Sri Lankan girl is the only one
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from Sri Lanka and she was elected in that position because she is a good girl not because
she is not white and those are the kinds of attitudes that we instill in our girls.
R: You mentioned something that I didn’t follow up on you had a problem with parents?
Mr. Frank: I had an incident in the car park. It was one parent who hooted at the other, it
was almost an ugly thing. It was a black mother and a white mother. I think our girls and
our new generation are a lot easier on this. I think our older generation, not everybody,
may still have problems. I always say you must emigrate into the new South Africa and I
believe that I have emigrated into the new South Africa not that it was difficult but some
of the people didn’t they’re still in the Volkstad and I must say in that case it was a little
difficult. But you know what, actually it was two difficult mothers anyway. It was two
difficult mothers it wasn’t a racial issue but if it is a race issue you are so much more
concerned, let’s just say you are more tense about it because you don’t want to get into
something where they say it was a racial issue. I got my PTA involved and we eventually
told both parents in writing that listen you either behave on campus or I will not allow
you to be on campus. You see with parents it’s difficult whereas with learners we can
have a disciplinary hearing and everything.
R: Have you ever had such cases with learners and if so how were they handled?
Mr. Frank: We had a case of a white girl who had made a remark and it wasn’t racial at
all and some of the black girls regarded it as saying but it was addressed to them. I
personally went to the class and those were matrics, our senior girls, and I addressed the
whole group and the girls specifically there but again I addressed it on the principle of
how you do things what you say and how you say things. And then I called them to the
office spoke to them and spoke to the culprit also and she then accepted and she
apologized. So what I am trying to say is that we address it immediately. I also spoke
about that in chapel and I asked my chaplain to have something in that regard. But it
actually boils down to basic respect, and the girl made a rude remark and I told her in
front of the whole class that what she said was wrong and you don’t do things like that in
15
the school and I think it was solved immediately. You see that is why you can’t be color
blind, because if a black girl comes to you and say but this has happened and it offended
me, you can’t say but I can’t see anything wrong with that. You must say if you feel that
you were not respected I must respect your viewpoint in that regard.
I must say I am head hunting, and I must be honest with you there are good white
teachers and there are bad white teachers, but if I appoint a black teacher I must make
sure that I appoint an excellent black teacher because I’m so concerned that if I appoint a
black teacher or the department sends somebody who doesn’t make the grade then people
will just say ja and even black people will say ja you see black teachers can’t be teachers
or no, no, black teachers can’t teach math or science. So I’m really head hunting to get
good (black) teachers to change this perception, not amongst my girls, amongst the
parents. The problem I get is that good teachers are taken, both white and black teachers,
and really even you in your position you must pass on good black teachers to me because
we’ve made a specific decision that we must integrate our staff component also. We’ve
done it successful with the learners.
R: Thank you Mr. Frank for your time.
16
APPENDIX 6: TRANSCRIPTS OF INTERVIEWS WITH STUDENTS
To cross-reference some of the principals’ narratives, I interviewed students. I
interviewed three students who attended ex model C schools. I included them in this
study - even though that had not been my initial aim – to find out how they define or
articulate issues linked to inclusivity. I started with a general question on what their
experiences had been going to an ex model C school.
Interview with Mosetsana
Mosetsana is a nineteen year old African girl. She used to go to school at one of the ex
model C school that are part of this study. She had been in that school since grade one
till grade twelve. She is now a first year Business Science student at University.
R: You went to an ex model school and what I would like you to tell me are your
experiences in your school. What are the things that come to your mind when you think
of your years at the school? Did you feel you belonged? Tell me about your teachers,
your peers or anything that comes to mind when you think of your previous school.
Mosetsana: Well that is a difficult question because there are so many things that come to
mind when I think of ………(names the school). Wow! I don’t know whether I felt that I
belonged or not. The thing is there was a lot of racism in that school but it was not like
your obvious racism, you most of the time would not be aware of it. Some of the things
it’s only now that I can realize that they were racist and nobody did anything about them.
R: Can you please examples of the things you are talking about?
Mosetsana: Okay. There was this lady who was a cleaner and I think she also made tea
for the teachers, and the way she would be spoken to by the white learners was not nice
and nobody ever did anything about that. I don’t think she ever complained. All black
learners, or at least those I knew, called her Me. Anna but the white learners just said
1
Anna and at times they would say things like “no Anna don’t be stupid or don’t be silly
and staff like that” and she clearly did not like it but she just kept quiet. I think it’s also
kind of very sad when white students can’t respect an elder person who is black then
clearly me as their peer they don’t respect me because I am also black as much as they
would like to make me invisible like no color.
R: What do you mean by that?
Mosetsana: I mean people like to say they don’t see color so for me if you don’t see color
you do not see me that’s why I feel one is trying to make me invisible.
R: So you are saying that you have a problem when people say that they don’t see color?
Mosetsana: Oh yes, because they would go on like ‘girls I don’t care if you are black,
white, pink, blue, green. We don’t get pink, blue, green people so could we be realistic
about life. You are white or you are black or you are colored or Indian or you are Chinese
that’s where it ends. I think for them you’ve got certain types of black people and if you
were the right type they liked you and I think I fitted that mold like I speak English very
nicely and I was just friendly and I think they liked that. I wasn’t one of those ‘angry
black people’ so to say. If you were a certain type they liked you if you weren’t they
never took time to try and understand you.
R: What do you mean by angry black people because I saw you use your fingers as if you
were putting angry in inverted commas?
Mosetsana: You get this like I live in town and I have been in the ex model C school
since the beginning of time whereas if you get a girl who lived in the township and say
was also from a previously black only environment of cause they are seen as having more
of the ‘hate the white man’ attitude and are not really liked.
2
R: Is it a question of them hating the white man or is it a question of them asserting their
blackness and their right to being acknowledged as human beings. What is your opinion
on that?
Mosetsana: Oh yes I guess it was because of them asserting their blackness I think
because some of us failed in wanting to be recognized as black. I think my biggest
mistake at that school was just accepting how things were and being cool with it because
it had been like that for twelve years so I’m just going to carry on. Whereas for someone
who came say in grade nine and found the situation they would be like no this is not how
it should be. But then again also if someone had raised an issue I don’t think it would be
taken seriously. Because I don’t think we were taken seriously when it came to racial
matters like we had issues with teachers and we complained to the headmaster but it was
never taken seriously and we were never apologized to for being made to feel small and
unimportant.
R: So what you are saying to me is that with you having gone to a predominantly white
school all your life you never knew any better. So whatever was happening in the school
you thought this is how it is supposed to be, as opposed to a black girl who came from a
township for instance from an ex DET school who knew differently, is that what you are
saying?
Mosetsana: I think life is bigger than just school so obviously I know about reality and
how things work in society. So I am not trying to say that I was close minded and
believed that what happened at that school is what happens in the rest of the world. I
think I was just powerless and in trying to change it because at that stage I was just trying
to get my education and get out of there.
R: Now that you are at varsity and as you put it have “gotten out of there” how do you
feel about your experiences at school?
3
Mosetsana: I think about how we were just not free. Things like our hair styles. That we
weren’t allowed to have dreadlocks even if it were the neatest dreadlocks you couldn’t
have that. I think dreadlocks is the most African hair style that you could possibly have
and they would say no your hair should either be relaxed – which is very white – or it
should be in braids – which is also fake and white. So in a way I feel the idea in that
school was to turn us into whites or make us as less African as possible and if you could
not fit into that that is where you get to be seen as having the hate the white man attitude.
R: What about the curriculum? Did you have any African languages taught at your
school?
Mosetsana: Well Sesotho was taught but if you were South African and wanted to do
Sesotho you weren’t allowed. It was only people from Lesotho who were allowed to take
it as a second language whereas us South African citizens we had to do Afrikaans and
there was no question about it. But even with the Lesotho students they never found a
permanent teacher. There were always issues around Sesotho because it was an after
school activity first of all and there were times when girls, like I remember in our matric
year there were girls who were doing Sesotho and there was a stage when they did not
have a teacher and they needed to know things like idioms and your general stuff. The
school just seemed quite lax in getting a Sesotho teacher whereas whenever there was a
change with English teachers it was almost immediate like we would never be chilling
and waiting for an English teacher. That’s why we never had like strong black figures in
the school the only black teacher we had was the lady who taught in the junior school and
even she was very meek and timid.
R: Would you have preferred to have somebody who was more assertive.
Mosetsana: Yes because I feel the black girls would have felt that there was somebody
who could represent their views in the staff room because I think as prefects and as
leaders of the school there is only so much a school girl can say to a headmaster to make
them listen and I think if we had a strong black teacher it would have been a lot easier for
4
us to go with our issues and say could you please address this. I also feel that it was
unfair for us not to be allowed to do Sesotho. I feel there should be the option of taking
Sesotho as a first or second language because we do live in South Africa which has
eleven official languages so I do not see why I should have to learn only Afrikaans and
English, and Afrikaans mind you I’ll only be able to use in South Africa.
R: So you feel that the African languages are not being treated equally when it comes to
English and Afrikaans?
Mosetsana: Yes because it is my mother’s language and if I had been given the chance I
would have preferred to do Sesotho instead of Afrikaans.
R: So you are saying there were no strong black teachers who could represent your views
but what about the white teachers were there any white teachers that you could talk to?
Mosetsana: I felt there were teachers who only liked me because my father was on the
board of governors and because he was a strong voice on that board and when there were
issues on racial matters or whatever that he didn’t agree with he would speak out. So the
board knew it and the staff knew it so I think a lot of the teachers would be nice to me so
that the ‘angry black man’ in the board would just, you know, calm down.
R: So you really think people would give you the time of the day because of who your
father was?
Mosetsana: Yes because a lot of the time I would be addressed by my surname and not
my name and that’s an indication of the fact that whenever they saw me it was not me
they were seeing but my father or maybe it was to remind themselves whose daughter I
was. But others would just be nasty. I once had a comment from a teacher. We were
talking about a hockey tour and she told us how much it would cost and I was like wow
and she turned to me and said “it’s not like you can’t afford”. The funny thing is that I
was not the only one who had said wow some white kids also like exclaimed in surprise
5
but she turns to me in very unfriendly way. I am like thinking yeh I know we are
comfortable but is it necessary to put me on the spot it’s not like we have money coming
out of our ears. She would never say anything to the white kids and some of them would
be like people whose parents were stinking rich.
R: How did that make you feel?
Mosetsana: I felt like oh ja simply because I am black the fact that we are comfortable at
home it is now being made a big issue, it’s like this is not expected and that’s why it is
being made an issue.
R: Can you tell me about some of classroom experiences, the curriculum , your
interactions with educators and other learners and that sort of thing.
Mosetsana: Well in class I guess most of the teachers really did not expect much from
black kids you see I have never been taught by a black person I sometimes felt like the
white teachers were not really taking us seriously.
R: What do you mean?
Mosetsana: Okay I remember one time we were sitting in an Afrikaans class and our
teacher brought up the issue of Hansie Cronje you know the match fixing. She was really
like upset and said something like “what do you think of this thing with ‘onse Hansie’? it
was when the newspapers had just broken the story and at that time most people did not
believe that he might be involved in that. Well we discussed it in class and most were
saying it is propaganda and everything. Then the next day or so Rev. Allan Boesak was
found guilty so this girl, Jean, (a colored girl) said to her “mam what do you thing about
the Allan Boesak issue?” then she goes “oh let that one go to jail, let’s do our work”.
Then Jean says can’t we at least discuss it but she just brushed her off. I just thought it
was racially motivated because we had been talking about Hansie the whole period
instead of doing Afrikaans and she was like defending him like the country’s hero and
6
everything but now she refuses when we want to talk about somebody who is in the same
predicament she just says let him go to jail. I mean some of us did not care much about
cricket or Hansie we cared about Boesak.
R: How did that make you feel?
Mosetsana: I just felt like well if you are white you are important and white becomes hot
the issues of the day but if you are black well no one cares. I don’t know I sort of felt that
what was important to me was not important in this school because I mean Rev. Boesak
was such an important person to us but here) we are not even allowed five minutes to talk
about him whereas we spent a whole period discussing what is really not that important
to us.
R: Let me ask you about your home how was Allan Boesak regarded in your home?
Mosetsana: My parents followed his case discussed and talked about it at home. I guess
they did not see him as someone who just had to go to jail. He was seen as a hero who
fought for black people during the apartheid times. I mean he is an icon of the struggle
years. I mean to me he is a hero he fought during the struggle and what did Hansie do for
me? Play cricket! I mean you can’t compare the two. I just felt if that teacher was black
she would have understood that this man was important just as my parents did.
R: Would I be right to say you felt that at that time the school was not reflective of your
own history?
Mosetsana: Oh ja because he actually is part of our history he might have fallen but he is
still an important part of my history. But I jut felt that in that school black people were
not welcome. I mean they do admit black kids and everything but so many things happen
that make you feel like you are not welcomed here. One day there was noise in class and
this teacher comes and says hey people this is not a shebeen and as she says this she is
7
facing the side where we sat (black learners) I mean we are like we are not the ones
making noise and in any event why say a ‘shebeen’ why not a bar. She is white and has
never been to a ‘shebeen’ so why use it as an example. Another thing in class if you raise
your hand like to speak or answer a question she would pick a white girl over a black girl.
I remember one time a friend of mine had her hand up to answer a question and nobody
else had their hand up ye and she totally ignored her and asked this white girl if she could
give an answer.
R: How did the fact that your friend was being ignored make you feel?
Mosetsana: Eh I actually felt that she was ignoring that whole side of the class and
actually she was ignoring me as well because I’m black and part of them and that was so
un-cool.
R: Did you feel like you were still part of the school?
Mosetsana: Well I sort of felt alienated but at the time she was a new teacher and very
Afrikaans so to me it was not about the whole school it was about her and her class, I felt
I was not part of that class at all. And there was a stage where I didn’t want to go to her
class and have her make those remarks or ignore me or something like that or do a racial
act like that.
R: What are some of the comments that she would make?
Mosetsana: The shebeen comment or things like ‘you people’ or ‘you black girls can’t
just keep quiet’ and things like that. And there was a time that a teacher made a comment
like ‘you girls are making such noise like this is a coolies bar’. I mean we all know that
‘coolies’ is a derogatory term for Indians. I jut feel that these were racially motivated.
R: So whenever there were incidents of name calling how did the school handle those?
8
Mosetsana: Well the incident that we raised was the issue with Mrs. S. our maths teacher
and we raised it with the head-master. We wrote a whole letter to him and told him all
our grievances against that teacher and the only thing he did about it was to change us
and put us in another class and the few girls who remained in her class say that she never
changed. So clearly he never did anything about her and he never told her that what she
was doing was unacceptable and she never apologized to us. It was never made as if
something was being done it was just that we were being shipped to the next class.
Probably the next teacher was told (whispering) “ keep the black girls happy, keep the
black girls happy”.
R: Why were the other black girls left in her class?
Mosetsana: Probably because they were doing maths standard grade so if you were doing
standard grade you had to be in her class and higher grade in the next class. So the
majority of the black girls were doing higher grade.
9
INTERVIEW WITH GIFT
Gift is a twenty year old young black man who went to one of the ex model C schools that are
part of this study. He is now studying law and is a second year student at university. He has
never attended a predominately black school. He did grade one at a private school and from
grade two he started at the school where he passed grade twelve.
R: You went to school to an ex model school right?
GIFT: Yes I did.
R: Okay. My question would be how did it feel going to that school with the school being
predominantly white, did you feel like your culture was being acknowledged, did you feel like
you belonged in the school?
GIFT: No my culture was not acknowledged in that school therefore I was not being
acknowledged myself because I always felt like we were trying to be changed into something we
were not. We were never taken as black people and respected on that like you would get teachers
saying things like I don’t see colour. The minute someone says that they don’t see colour they
don’t see you because colour is inherently a major part of who you are as a person. So no I don’t
feel like I was acknowledged as a person or as a part of that school.
R: How did it make you feel when people said they did not see colour?
GIFT: Well it was a form of rejection in a way because that person is telling you that who you
are is actually not important to them. They are trying to pick out something or they’re trying to
see whatever or project whatever image of you they have. So to me it was quite insulting for
someone to say they don’t see colour because it is part of who I am.
R: Would I be right to say you are saying when a person says she/he does not see colour you feel
she/he does not want to acknowledge the fact that you are black?
GIFT: Ja that’s what I felt.
1
R: So during your time in this school are there things that come to your mind that you would say
these are the things that when I think of that school come to mind. Things that you feel have
remained with you even though you have now left the school whether they are sad or happy
memories.
GIFT: Okay let’s start with on a happy note. I met like a lot of different people and obviously
who I am as a person comes from the experiences that I had in that school although most of them
were really negative but (laughs) they made me a much stronger person. They built my stronger
character, mind you for a long time I was the only black kid in my classes. Em on a more
negative side I would say just the race of them was obviously a biggest problem in that school
because it’s a predominantly white school and like I have been saying that they did not want to
acknowledge black people as people. So things like the word ‘kaffir’ being used just generally
like it was never, it would never be addressed. If someone was called a ‘kaffir’ it would never be
addressed in a proper way. Like it would all be trying to make whoever was fighting to
apologise. I remember a guy called me a kaffir and we had a fight. We then went to the viceprincipal and he was just like okay guys this is not acceptable just shake hands and say sorry.
And that was the type of way that they dealt with racism it was just swept under the carpet. And
those were the most negative moments of my school career I think.
R: Just to follow up on this ‘k’ word how did that make you feel to be called that?
GIFT: Well it was eh, the thing is it was eh, I would always hear the word ‘kaffir’ being said by
white people but up to that time no one had ever called me a kaffir so that made me very angry at
that moment which is why we got into a heated fight with that other guy. So I don’t know it just
made me feel like this person knows exactly what they are trying to do they are trying to push
my buttons and they are trying to make me feel inferior. I guess he succeeded because at that
moment that’s how I felt. I felt very powerless which is why I decided to use my fists rather than
using an alternative way of responding to that.
R: When you said that you went to the vice principal’s office and you say he just “said guys this
is unacceptable shake hands”, you sounded like that did not satisfy you what would you have had
him do?
GIFT: I don’t know how to answer this question really but how do you – maybe you would
know more – but how does the vice principal change someone’s way of thinking like in an
2
instant because corporal punishment was ruled out at the time and I don’t even think that would
have helped. I don’t even think me hitting him helped.
R: The reason I asked this is because you said you felt it was swept under the carpet. I
understood you to be feeling the vice principal trivialised this, is that how you felt?
GIFT: Yes that’s exactly how I felt and that is what I am saying. But I am saying I don’t know
how he could have turned that around because there is nothing that could have taken that little
moment back and taken the pain away. So I really don’t know what he could have done. I wish
he could have addressed it differently by maybe calling parents to come and iron this out, you
know, things like that. But he never did anything like that. He just never gave it a second
thought. He just thought let me make these guys apologise and shake hands, that was that. But
with me I had just reached a stage where I was tired of fighting these people that’s why I didn’t
take it any further. I just thought this is something that will keep on happening which is
something I was used to hearing so I just responded to it with like, I guess, it was a very defeatist
attitude.
R: Can you tell me about teaching staff, did you have black teachers?
GIFT: Eh no. Oh ja in the last two years of my high school career there was a black guy
appointed and he taught junior high school science. So he never taught me but yes there was one
black member of staff.
R: Was he a sort of person that you could go and talk to?
GIFT: I never really had confidence in that guy to actually go to him and speak about anything
because he was very, eh, he just seemed very meek and not a very strong character. He just
didn’t seem like someone that could stand his ground. He was a basket ball coach and I got to
know him on that level ‘cause I played basketball. He was someone that could not command
respect from students especially white students at the time.
R: How did that make you feel?
GIFT: I don’t know I guess it brings your confidence down as a black person when you see
someone who is older than you and has a position of responsibility and authority just drifting in a
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school where you need a black person with a strong personality to be able to fight whatever
wrongs there are in the school as far as race is concerned or whatever issues there are. I think it
was a strategy on the part of the school to hire black teachers that fit that mould. Teachers that
are not assertive who will not stand their ground and who lack confidence in themselves as
people so that it would make it easier for them to just kind of carry on with school the way they
had been running it.
R: Would I be right to say you saw that as tokenism?
GIFT: Yes that’s was definitely tokenism.
R: If things could be changed now, even though you are out of the school, what would you like
to have changed for you to be able to say the black kids who go to that school are being
acknowledged and they are being made to feel like they are part of the school and their culture is
being respected?
GIFT: Well I guess the teachers would have just to acknowledge that you have an array of
different kinds of students. They are black, white, coloured, Indian and they are from different
backgrounds. And teachers, ‘cause I think teachers are the people who have the most influence
on students, should learn about different cultures learn different ways of handling students that
are from whatever background. And I guess more teachers of colour should be employed in these
multiracial schools so that the headmaster or the board know exactly what’s happening as far as
the day to day running of the school goes. And the teacher of colour should be somebody that is
not scared to stand up for whatever they believe in and should know that they are representing
the people of colour in the school therefore they should always be standing up and always
fighting whatever wrong is in the school. You can’t blame these white people for the way they
are because they come from a system where they felt superior and they were always in control
and they had their views on black people and you can’t change a person in a day, it’s going to
take time. So these teachers of colour should be in there making sure that these changes are
happening.
R: You say there should be teachers of colour but how do you feel about having a black head
master?
GIFT: I think that would be perfect because then issues of race would be dealt with very quickly.
I think that’s where they have to start if they really want going to a multiracial school to be a
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nice experience for children of colour. But which ever way they take there needs to be a change
and it needs to be immediate.
R: Let us talk about classroom situation. You said for a long time you were the only black child
in your class how did you feel you were treated in the classroom?
GIFT: Well sometimes I felt like I was alienated from the rest of the class but then there were
times that I felt like I fitted in. But I only felt like that because I could speak English fluently and
with an accent (laughs) so that was primarily why I felt like I fitted in. But had I been somebody
from the rural area who spoke broken English then I would have had a very difficult time.
R: So you are saying – and please correct me if I am wrong – that you feel that you were
accepted to a certain extent simply because you acted more white than African?
GIFT: Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying.
R: How about the fact that you lived in town and your parents drove the latest models of cars did
that also play a role in your being accepted?
GIFT: Oh ja, definitely because we were living what they saw as a white life style, what used to
be a white life style before. There were some of the people who I considered my friends and they
would say to me “you are not like those other blacks”, you know, snide comments like that. They
are like ‘black’ people and oh no not you. The reason we were like accepted is that we lived in
town had a nice house, nice cars and all that whereas someone who lived in the township and
came to school by taxi was looked down upon all the time.
R: Among the white teachers was there a teacher in school that you could approach on issues that
were important to you?
GIFT: We did have one teacher but she was always difficult to read because she always appeared
very fake to me. She is one of those white liberals and they are sometimes the most dangerous
people ever because they will treat you as if you are one of them, they respect you as a person
and things like that but then they will turn around and do something very different or talk about
you behind your back very negatively. So she was someone I couldn’t read therefore I could not
trust her. So I never really went to her but she would always come to me and say “if you ever
5
need to talk about anything come to me” and she was always encouraging me to do debating and
things like that. But I couldn’t really trust her because I just thought she was a snake.
R: You said you were accepted because of the economic status of your parents, do you mean by
other learners or teachers?
GIFT: I meant both but there also was a flipside to that. There were also teachers that were very
jealous of that and they would pick on you just because your father is driving a nice car and
you’re living a comfortable life style a kind of lifestyle that maybe they will never be able to
live. So ja I had some experiences like that where I was being picked on just because we were
comfortable.
R: You were being picked on like how, please explain.
GIFT: Well I remember one day we were waiting for practice (music) and I hear this teacher
shout out GIFT and I was like “what?” So I looked at him and I’m like yes and then he started
shouting my name again and he’s like stand properly. And I was very confused at why this man
felt the need to shout across the room that I should stand properly. And this happened later on
during the practice and then it was a whole big thing with the choir master saying that like if
people are not with it they can leave and I was just confused what was going on. Then a friend of
mine told me he had also go the same treatment from that same person because he felt that’s
because we had fathers that were rich and living in nice houses and comfortable and things like
that.
R: This friend of yours is he black or white?
GIFT: He is black (laughs) and he pointed it out cause I was really very confused and saying
what’s happening here, what’s wrong with this man cause I really didn’t understand. So ja my
friend just made it clear ‘cause he had also gone through that.
R: Do you think that he was picking on you not because you are black but because your father
has means or rather both?
GIFT: I don’t know I mean he had always treated me like eh he had always treated me with eh I
guess respect before. Like we had always been friendly when we meet like we’ll be on a friendly
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jovial type of thing when we met and then all of a sudden there was a change. So I don’t know
whether it was with things going on in his life because that was the paedophile stage with things
being reported (laughs hilariously). I don’t know, I just don’t know! But Toko just said that it
was probably because you were comfortable not just that you were black but I think obviously
because you are black as well it just has a big part to play because black is who I am. I also
remember like I guess I was in grade two or something and I did not have a red crayon to colour
in my work. So I borrowed another kid’s crayon. This teacher then says to me: “GIFT why don’t
you ask your father to sell his Mercedes Benz and buy you a red crayon?” I mean I was a kid in
grade two! I was like surprised to say what now where did that come from. I was the only black
kid in my class then and rich white kids borrowed things from me all time and nothing was ever
said in reference to their parents.
R: How did all this make you feel?
GIFT: I was a kid then so I can’t really remember how I felt except that well it was annoying and
I had a feeling that maybe I am not wanted here. But you will remember at that time the country
was changing and I think most of our teachers felt threatened because they knew that your
parents held a certain amount of influence and power in the city that is because they are moving
up whatever you know. So they felt threatened that’s why they would make snide remarks like
that. Looking back I can now see that the issue was that I or my dad did not deserve to have
money. If there were any remarks made to white kids about cars their parents drive or something
like that it would be in a very light-hearted way, in a jocular manner but with you it would be
like something that is heavy on their minds because I guess you do not deserve it.
R: Did you feel like you really belonged in the school and what are the things that made you feel
really comfortable?
GIFT: I am not sure that I can say I felt like I belonged there. But let me start with the things that
made me feel I did not belong. First, the school flew the old South African flag and the Free
State flag I guess, because the principal said it was part of our history.
Secondly there was this thing that we would celebrate soldiers that died in the 1900’s or 1800’s.
Every 11 of November the school remembers those dead soldiers. No black people were ever
mentioned in the honorary wall or whatever and that day was always boring. The eleventh of
November at the eleventh hour eleventh minute eleventh second they ring the chapel bell eleven
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times for fallen white soldiers from the Anglo Boer war or whatever war it was. For me that was
always a reminder of how racist the school was because we never mentioned people who were
killed during the times of Apartheid whether they belonged to the school or not. In-fact
Apartheid was never mentioned in that school it was as if it never happened. It was never really
spoken about. And Mr.. (the principal) would always say time and again that he is a person that
really does not like to go into talking about race and matters about race. He would always make
comments like that in his speeches at prize giving functions and things like that. I always felt like
that was very insulting.
R: That he didn’t want to speak about race?
GIFT: Ja that he would say he did not want to go into issues about race.
R: Why did you feel that it was insulting?
GIFT: Obviously because he did not want to acknowledge that there are other people of colour
there, that there were other races other than his own. Not just his students the parents as well. It
means he never respected the parents as well even though they were helping pay his cheque
every month and buying him a BMW.
R: Let’s go back to the 11 November thing. Who was being honoured here?
GIFT: Well it was like soldiers who died in one of the wars that in my opinion had nothing much
to do with me. The other schools came and the flag would fly at half mass. This happens in
summer but we would have to be in full school uniform blazers and everything. I just thought
that was silly really that we should celebrate that and nothing is ever said about apartheid. I mean
there are a lot of people who died for this country like June 16 for instance it was never an issue
in that school. Sharpville and 9 August those are the things that one just got to hear about from
people not in school. Nobody really cared to celebrate those.
R: Am I hearing you to be saying even the people who worked hard or died to have apartheid
abolished you would have wanted them to be honoured?
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GIFT: Yes even if they had nothing to do with the school. But if they died during apartheid they
should be honoured because the point is apartheid is a major part of our history in this country
but those people were never ever acknowledged they were never even mentioned.
R: thank you very much!
9
Interview with a young man who used to be a learner in one of the ex-model schools. Pule is
a twenty one year old young man. He is presently studying for a degree in science at
university.
R: You went to an ex-model school and what I would like you to tell me are your experiences in
your school. What are the things that come to your mind when you think of your years at the
school? Did you feel you belonged?
Pule: Wow do I really want to talk about that! Where do I start, my goodness! I spent five years
in that school but I don’t think I ever belonged. What is strange is that at the time I was there I
was not aware of most things and I thought that was how things were supposed to be. It’s only
now that I am at Varsity and when I look back I see that there was a lot of racism there.
R: Did you go to any other school before you went to this one where you passed matric?
Pule: Ja sort of I mean I went to a private school in ............ you know I was small and
everything. I was in grade one so I stayed there for a few years. Then my dad applied for us to
come to this school. We did not know whether they were going to accept us or not, but after
some school holidays as we were preparing to go back to .............. my dad got a call from the
principal saying we could come. You see they had tested us there, so he went on and on about
that we could actually come because we were doing the same curriculum as they were doing in
his school and even the test results – you see they had tested us – showed that we would “fit” in
his school. So because we hated ........... and especially the boarding part and everything we
decided not to go back. So that is how I came to this school, quite a long time if you ask me.
R: Why do you say it was too long?
Pule: Picture this for a long time I was the only black kid in my classes and that was a big issue
for me.
R: You said the test results showed that you would fit and you did something with your fingers
as if you were putting fit in inverted comas, why is that?
Pule: Yes I was putting it in inverted comas because even though the test showed them that we
would fit, I don’t think any black child ever felt like they fitted in that school. You know what,
1
just last month I met one of the guys who used to be very quiet at school and we start discussing
and he says to me “you know we went through some bullshit in that school but you start realising
most of it when you have left school”. I was surprised to hear that from him, you see, he was
even a prefect.
R: What kind of ‘bullshit” – to borrow your own term – was that?
Pule: Oh the racism and stuff some of it subtle some of it not so subtle. I mean to start with the
way we black people were treated by white teachers I mean it was not right at all. Like for
instance in our class, I guess in all classes, black people used to sit on one side and white people
on the other, there would be noise and when the teacher comes in she would be like “you people
are so loud aren’t you ashamed of yourselves?’’ and the way she would say it, it would really
piss you off I mean the “you people” part.
R: Why was the sitting like that?
Pule: You know what, I don’t think anyone ever said we must sit that way, I guess it just
happened. But there was this other teacher who would come to class and always said to us black
guys that we should go sit with the white guys on the other side. We never really did that. I mean
why tell black people where to sit why not tell the white guys? I felt like he was just picking on
us black kids.
R: Was the teacher black or white and why would you ‘feel like he is picking on you’ when he
just asked for some different sitting in the classroom?
Pule: All teachers are white in that school. The thing is there was lots of fighting in that school
and if you sit with the white kids somebody was bound to provoke you either by throwing papers
at you or doing something that would really annoy you and if you retaliated you obviously would
get into trouble.
R: If somebody annoys you why would you retaliate why not report to the teachers?
Pule: Like it would help. Reporting never helped, I mean if you report two things will happen:
one the white student will deny that it was him and the teacher will just say: “you see Pule he
says it was not him so let’s forget it and go on with our work shall we?’’ The second thing is if
2
what he did was not very serious like throw papers he may just say: “ oh sir I was simply playing
with him”. All the teacher will say is “people can we all try to have some sense of humour here
and appreciate that others are just trying to be nice?” Now you are the aggrieved party here but
the teacher will go on about how sense of humour is necessary in life or some similar nonsense.
But let it be a white student complaining about a black student, oh my goodness we would be in
for a lecture on morality or depending on who the teacher was one could even end up being sent
to the principal’s office.
R: How did that make you feel and did such things happen often?
Pule: Well it made me fell like dirt. The message was clear you are black and you are not good
enough. I mean there was this time a friend of mine had a fight with a white guy. What happened
was that in class this guy threw papers at ......so he told him to get lost but he didn’t so
.............left it at that but I mean he was angry. When the teacher came ......... tried to tell her and
she goes “are you injured?” and ............ says, “No I would like you to tell him not to do that
again”. Know what this teacher did? Nothing! Poor ........... went to sit down and all the white
guys and two or three stupid blacks laughed.
R: How did that make you feel?
Pule: I was annoyed because .......... was a really cool guy and the guy who threw papers at him
was a real jerk, his name was ............ It did not end there in the dinning hall ........... threw food at
......... some guys laughed as if this was funny. .......... got so angry he grabbed ...........and
strangled him; he became so pale I thought he was going to kill him, some RCL members came
to help and everybody was trying to separate them. It then became such a big thing it went to the
principal and parents were called in. The school wanted to suspend ........ then his parents brought
in a lawyer apparently he read them the riot act and threatened them with exposure in the media.
What is funny is that ......... was now portrayed as a victim. At assembly we were then preached
to about humour and how food fights have always being there as a way students played and noone should take them seriously and anyone who gets involved in fist fights would be expelled
and all that staff. Hei listen to this in our class the very teacher whom ..............had first asked to
call ............ to order starts moralising us again telling us that she knows that some of us may not
realise that food fights are just boys being boys after all food can never injure or hurt you. And
she understand that if you come from a place where there isn’t enough food, especially those
who come from the townships, you cannot know a game where people play with food - mind
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you as she is saying all this rubbish she is facing us black guys - but this is the new South Africa
and we have to learn these things.
R: How did that make you feel?
Pule: I come from ‘ekasi’ (township) too so I was mad that she should imply that we are not used
to food. I mean the food we eat in that dinning hall is not charity our parents have paid for it, but
the message was clear fit in with whites or quit.
R: Do you think if there were black teachers it would be better?
Pule: Part of me thinks so and the other part does not. You see the thing is would it be the right
kind of ‘black’ teacher? If it were somebody hired by them it would be a disaster because it
would be someone who would be afraid to challenge them. I think if they employ black teachers
the department should do the interviews themselves not the school and the SGB. They recruit
people to serve on the SGB but the people they recruit are sometimes an embarrassment. What I
have realised is that white people love stupid Blacks they don’t want people who are aware and
try to challenge them.
R: You just said there were no black teachers in your school, would that mean that the African
languages were not taught?
Pule: They teach Sesotho third language and if you want to take it you take it as a seventh
subject.
R: Did you do it?
Pule: No I did not. There would be no point even if I wanted to because Sesotho was taught by a
teacher who could not even pronounce the words every time she would be asking the black guys
in her class “Guys, how do you sound this word?” I mean for any black kid it was waste of time
to take Sesotho in that school.
R: Any other thing that you would like to tell me about the curriculum? Did you feel like the
curriculum reflected you as a young black person?
4
Pule: Well with the curriculum I guess we did the same things like in the other schools. The
curriculum is uniform and everything but when it came to things like debates I found the topics
that were suggested to be boring. When we suggested topics that we liked and wanted to research
there would be comments like ‘boys that is just too political’ you know and things like that. We
also had this thing where we would be asked questions on general knowledge. The questions
asked there were so biased, like they would ask questions about fishing, canoeing, rugby, cricket
and the like. There would be no questions on the PSL teams for instance. If there are questions it
would be one or two about the two big teams and rest would be about the overseas clubs. I mean
that school is known for its sport but I promise you most guys there do not even know the
players who play for Bafana Bafana. It was so interesting when we had a common question
paper from the department and they had asked things like the ministers for different ministries
and everything most white kids did not know them and teachers were going on about how unfair
the question paper was. I mean that is current affairs and for people not to know who the minister
of Safety and Security is is a big joke.
R: How come they did not know them?
Pule: Good question! I guess it is because it is a black government therefore they do not care.
Actually I don’t know, maybe the African names are too difficult for them, I just don’t know. I
just found it too naïve for a high school student not to know basic things like who is the minister
of education or finance. It’s just silly that’s all.
R: Some schools have pictures on the walls of the president and his deputy and or some
ministers; did you have those in your school?
Pole: During the time that I was there we did not. I do not know now but I doubt because I think
in that school they hated this government. The only person who was liked there was ex president
Mandela, but even him I don’t remember seeing his picture on any wall. The walls there are full
of old white people who are probably dead by now. I don’t know.
R: Why do you think ‘in that school they hated this government’?
Pule: I don’t know maybe because of the comments from some teachers like negative comments
made about government and some people in government.
5
R: Can you think of any examples?
Pule: Some years ago there was this thing that the President had said there is no link between
HIV and AIDS. You should have heard the teachers in my school their comments were like they
were saying the president was stupid or mad or something. It became an everyday thing. So we
suggested that we have a debate on whether people should be given ARV treatment on not taking
into consideration the levels of poverty in the country. We were told that we should not waste
time on stupid things only stupid people doubt the benefits of ARV. I mean we wanted to argue
and put into context what the president had said. But in that school they had taken a position that
they support the pharmaceutical companies and they did not want to listen to other opposing
opinions, it was like they just wanted to brain wash all of us. If you do not agree with them you
are weird that’s all. I hated that.
R: I see. Is there any other thing that you would like to share with me?
Pule: Well let’s see oh maybe sports. In that school sports was the most important thing. I
remember there was a black guy from the Eastern Cape I guess. He came to do grade 11 and he
was already twenty years old. Normally they don’t take new students for grade 11, worse if one
is already twenty years old but they took him because he played rugby. So that is why I am
saying the most important thing in that school is sport, because this guy’s report was even bad. I
mean he did not care about his academics but they did not mind as long as he played sport. I
mean the guy would fail his tests and no one really cared. In my opinion they did not push him
enough whereas with white kids if they played sport and were not performing academically, they
would be pushed to work hard so that the can get good results for scholarships and everything.
As a result this Eastern Cape guy just got by with his matric, he got a school leaving certificate.
R: It sounds like you are blaming the school for his poor performance?
Pule: I just feel they could have pushed him to do better but it’s like they were just using him for
rugby and did not care about his future. In fact in that school if you were black people would
have very low expectations of you. They would always discourage some black kids from taking
their subjects at higher grade and I am not talking about people who were not doing well in class.
I mean you find a white guy struggling with science but allowed to register it at higher grade but
a black guy who does better than that white guy being told to do standard grade for ‘his own
good’. One guy had to call in his parents and the department got involved and everything. But I
6
don’t think the department helped but in the end he took it at higher grade simply because his
father fought them.
R: What about you were you ever told to do your subjects at standard grade?
Pule: They couldn’t suggest it even if they wanted to. I did very well in my academics and I
think most of them were scared of me. You see I would always have something to say and I did
not do well in sports so I was not very popular with the teachers because that is a sporting
school. I always had a feeling that they just wanted me to finish matric and leave their school.
You see in that school when they tell you something you could not ask why, if you do that you
get into trouble. One they wrote in my report that I was opinionated and arrogant. So my father
came to school to ask what is it that I had done. They could not explain just ended up singing my
praises that I work hard, my father just let it go. But I think they did not bank on my father
coming to school to question them so since that time I could see that they just wanted me out.
Well I passed my matric very well.
R: Thank you.
7